Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: SydneyRover on December 01, 2022, 10:55:49 pm
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Avanti West Coast and TransPennine, hats off to you it must take some doing that!
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Not really, no money, no drivers, no plan. a few others in exactly the same situation.
Covid totally ruined the train driver training plan, this is now having a massive knock on effect, nobody wants to work overtime weekends if the don't have to.
To be fair to them also a good proportion of the cancellations could have been caused by the RMT strike which resulted in signallers going out on strike so no trains could be run on those days so its not as black or white as it first seems.
"Possibly shades of grey involved"
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The Railways need taking back into public ownership. Everyone knows it.
Come on, Keith. Another vote winner if you pledge to do it.
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No idea fella
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It's strange that a lack of drivers, strikes etc only happen to train systems in the north.
''TPE, which runs trains in the north of England and Scotland, has the highest cancellation rate of any British train operating company, at 19%-30% each week. It routinely cancels up to 60 services the night before, blaming high levels of staff sickness and a driver training programme. These so-called “P-code” cancellations, which must be made by 10pm the night before, disappear from the timetable and are not recorded by the Office of Rail and Road, which compiles railway performance data''
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/03/uk-figures-stark-north-south-divide-railway-reliability
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There is a bit more to this issue than just taking the Guardians spin on it, comparing the train services in the north to what runs in the south east especially is like chalk and cheese.
Im no apologist for TPE and i know they run a shocking service but to concentrate on them just deflects from other areas which have their own particular issues.
I have access to far more detailed breakdowns of train performance and reliability databases that i'm not at liberty to disclose but i can assure you there's a bit more to it than the usual wheeled out excuses.
I suppose when your trying to manufacture certain scenarios then any data can be constructed to exploit your narrative and your fav rag is one of the best at doing so.
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Put the breakdowns that you have up for scrutiny then?
If you are unable to divulge this information, give me an idea what it consists of and where it is likely to be found and I will press for FOI to get it out there.
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Its not going to happen and its more than my jobs worth as its private and confidential as it contains issues on TUPE and personnel T's & C's.
What i can say is when you compare TOC's and FOC's in the north who have historically had a older demographic of staff who's personal terms were created in some cases years ago and you compare it to some Southern based operators who tend to have a bigger staff turnover with many staff on new and restructured contracts, you may start to get an idea about why its much more difficult for northern operators to run an optimal service 7 days a week.
Also factor in that many operators in the south have drivers in links that consist of relatively short train diagrams, in effect the drivers have very small and precise route cards, that's all they need. in contrast many of the links in the north cover larger areas and drivers have to have more route knowledge, with diversionary routes also included to cover their train diagrams. basically they drive further than operators who just drive routes into and out of London and the south east which in train driving terms are short routes. The route knowledge takes time to learn and complete that's if you have driver managers and instructors available to teach them in the first place.
If you also factor how much gets spent on renewing infrastructure to run the trains in the first place as well as maintain it to required standards and how different the budgets are for various parts of the network nationwide the variations are very large.
These are just a few of issues that are all relevant to the figures that the Guardian published, and there are others as which are just as important but not for here.
When you take all the variables into consideration things are never very straightforward as a puff piece in a rag with a defined left wing view on how they want the railway to be portrayed at this particular time.
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The cancellations of service, if it is all accountable and verifiable why do the train companies hide behind loopholes, also all these problems you list are not secret information and any company taking on a contract such as this would have done an operations investigation to determine the long term viability of such a contract where they signed on the bottom line to do so.
Further to this you would not be R Crusoe in having this information at your fingertips so why has the company/s not taken steps in forward planning their work way through it, are they so incompetent?
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All TOC's and FOC's hide behind any loophole to gain a competitive advantage
Operations investigations for long term viability on the railways hinges on having the right amount of competent staff and more importantly keeping them, the market now is very open and any driver worth his salt has or will be weighing up his options, they are g falling over themselves to bag qualified drivers, pay rates are now higher than levels 6 and 7 qualified staff.
All companies steps to forward plan was dealt a hammer blow when Covid struck, you can't train drivers if they cannot sit next to you. Of course to get them to that position in the first place they have to pass a psychometric test, this test has been made easier to pass as the pass rate was to low, even now almost 50% of candidates fail this test, you have a further attempt to pass it after 6 months, if you fail it you will never be allowed to be considered again for a driving position. You also need the qualified managers and trainers to carry out this training, they are also head hunted into extinction. Covid was the killer that no company could of planned for, it was variable up and down the country at different times during its gestation, without this pandemic the vast majority of operators would of been well into their medium to long term plans to deal with the shortages, this is happening now.
Its not incompetence but a very challenging market place, drivers like anyone else can ply their trade to the highest bidder.
When these are some of the issues you have to contend with you may just be able to see that long term planning in the industry is not easy, unfortunately the train passengers cop the disruption.
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Thanks for your informed replies DD, what I don't understand is why all the above is only affecting couple of northern train system operators.
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Thanks for your informed replies DD, what I don't understand is why all the above is only affecting couple of northern train system operators.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/09/trains-cancelled-over-christmas-after-strikes
!
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Thanks for your informed replies DD, what I don't understand is why all the above is only affecting couple of northern train system operators.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/dec/09/trains-cancelled-over-christmas-after-strikes
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Are they connected DD, or were we discussing what had already happened rather than what may happen?
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/dec/14/north-england-rail-chaos-toxic-issues
I see the Guardian are hard at it again, obviously they see some mileage in flogging this till kingdom come.
I wonder for who's benefit because Starmer couldn't hit a cows arse with a banjo never mind make any capital out of this.
As for TPE, good luck getting anyone to work rest day working, when you pay your drivers £64k flat they don't need the overtime.
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It would make more sense it you actually said what the guardian printed was incorrect and substantiate your claim DD.
Are there reasons why skilled workers with great responsibility should not earn a good wage, would you rather have city bankers with their hand on the speed controller?
From the link ...............
''On Tuesday, MPs on the transport committee heard from witnesses describing in vivid detail the chaos across the north of England – levels of chaos not repeated in other parts of the UK, and which comes on top of the industrial action being taken by rail unions''
Maybe you should have popped in and given them your two penn'orth DD
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Never said it was incorrect, in fact it is true. my point is that the Guardian are giving this story plenty of airtime, especially with it being in the north for a reason.
Now what might the Guardian want with flogging this story on a regular basis in the north, some might say there is political capital to be made there, who knows, maybe some closely contested seats to be won !
As for skilled workers with great responsibility, i totally agree, and they are worth every penny they earn as i know exactly what it takes to progress as a professional train driver.
And don't worry, TPE management know exactly how i feel when I've been on CRG meetings with them.
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Never said it was incorrect, in fact it is true. my point is that the Guardian are giving this story plenty of airtime, especially with it being in the north for a reason.
Now what might the Guardian want with flogging this story on a regular basis in the north, some might say there is political capital to be made there, who knows, maybe some closely contested seats to be won !
As for skilled workers with great responsibility, i totally agree, and they are worth every penny they earn as i know exactly what it takes to progress as a professional train driver.
And don't worry, TPE management know exactly how i feel when I've been on CRG meetings with them.
Excellent, I won't worry as we agree. The bit about the guardian 'flogging the story' it's what the media does, inform the public. I guess some media do concentrate on particular aspects and that is why in my view one should read a cross section to see if it makes sense with a different point of emphasis or additional information. Some on here (not you DD) have suggested that those interested in political/uk/world news may trawl for stories when in fact if you do read a wide cross section it's all there.
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https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/17/disabled-passengers-on-avanti-trains-say-they-have-had-to-sit-in-toilets-to-get-seat
The Guardian strike again, really trawling through toilets now to get a story to bad mouth services in the north(even though this was a service to London)
Talk about a dog with a bone, essentially not very subtle or effective i would say but that's your Guardian for you.
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I suppose you have to ask yourself if the report is about Avanti, you know the train service that is failing it's passengers and erm yes it is. It doesn't matter where the train finishes the story is about the service provider, aye DD
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https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/17/disabled-passengers-on-avanti-trains-say-they-have-had-to-sit-in-toilets-to-get-seat
The Guardian strike again, really trawling through toilets now to get a story to bad mouth services in the north(even though this was a service to London)
Talk about a dog with a bone, essentially not very subtle or effective i would say but that's your Guardian for you.
What an odd response.
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https://www.theguardian.com/society/2022/dec/17/disabled-passengers-on-avanti-trains-say-they-have-had-to-sit-in-toilets-to-get-seat
The Guardian strike again, really trawling through toilets now to get a story to bad mouth services in the north(even though this was a service to London)
Talk about a dog with a bone, essentially not very subtle or effective i would say but that's your Guardian for you.
What an odd response.
If you've read the thread and come to that conclusion then your quite diminished in my estimation.
Thought you had a bit more about you.
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I suppose you have to ask yourself if the report is about Avanti, you know the train service that is failing it's passengers and erm yes it is. It doesn't matter where the train finishes the story is about the service provider, aye DD
This story is about Avanti West Coast services, this one just happened to start from Wigan to London. last time i looked this company were headquartered in Euston London, so what this story has to do with the north is pushing it somewhat.
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With all due respect dd I think you're the one pushing it up hill, you first suggested the report was incorrect and you had secret information that you couldn't divulge, there can't be that much that is secret and unknown to running a train service aye, it's not MI5? then you turn 180 and agree with the report saying it is true and all the while disparaging a media outlet for bring it to the attention of the public that maybe don't use the service but pay for subsidising the service through their tax and all happening while an incompetent government appears to be frozen on the side lines.
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I'm just highlighting the guardians weak effort to try to make the crap railway service in the north seem like its some sort of gift from the crappy government and in effect push the narrative into weak minds that its their fault and you need to remember this when you next vote, especially in target seats.
Just for the folk who can't see the wood for the trees.
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Surely the Guardian is reporting facts?
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The Railways need taking back into public ownership. Everyone knows it.
Come on, Keith. Another vote winner if you pledge to do it.
All the public services do in all honesty
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/dec/23/passengers-northern-railways-driver-transpennine-express-staff
This just gets more bizarre by the day. They have now stooped to making up a "secret train driver" to tell the story just in case people didn't believe them. The story is so lacking in factual copy its a complete joke. You can tell its a fabrication because a "real train driver" would of never commented about any part of the subject in the manner its been rehashed here.
Whoever commissioned this piece of garbage wants sacking, a job with the Independent is waiting for them.
If this is the Guardian "reporting facts" then i'm a Rotherham fan(and it don't get much worse for a Rovers fan than that.)
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Well Mr Miller maybe you should support what you say or even show that the journo that wrote the story has a history of misleading the public, something, anything at all.
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Im just pointing out to you the Guardians current campaign of trying to vilify the railways in the north to try to ram home to people like you who buy it hook line and sinker as part of their "try to reclaim the northern red wall seats" that abandoned labour at the last GE.
It's pointless posting any reposts here as you would always believe the Guff displayed in the piece regardless, but i'll indulge you.
Let me see now, a load of old trope from a secret source that cannot be verified but because its printed in your fav rag then it must be true.
Or take the word of someone who works in the industry, has no connections with TPE but knows managers and drivers who work for them and knows of factual mistakes in the piece,
TPE have not lost 74 drivers, they have more drivers now than they started the year with.
I know drivers based in York who drive that route from Leeds to Newcastle and Newcastle to Leeds, York to Manchester, and Liverpool to York so not the same as in the piece.
"Ask 90% of TPE staff if they would leave if they had a viable option to go to – and they would say yes." what does this mean, even if it is true. Divers at TPE could if they wanted to move tomorrow have the pick of at least 10 train operators , both passenger and freight operations if they wished to move. A qualified train driver is like rocking horse sh*t at this moment in time and any of those companies would snatch the hand off a driver if he wanted a change of scenery (they only stipulation they would have is to live within an hours travel of their depot) hence the 10 other operations who would have them.
She's either made up a fictional driver who cannot be verified or she she has been speaking to some disillusioned struggling driver who's not very good, in the bottom link and gets cra*ped on everyday and earns 60k whilst his mates in the top links get the plum jobs and are on 95kplus.
Take your pick.
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Not at all Miller, I would prefer to have facts even if I don't agree with them.
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Certainly, so you will be able to show me where in her puff piece she stated any facts?
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Certainly, so you will be able to show me where in her puff piece she stated any facts?
As usual miller you have it arse about, it's you that has to support your assertion that she is misleading.
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I'll alert you when the next fantasy piece makes its appearance, looks like they will have to keep regurgitating this rubbish as they unions dig in.
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I'm just happy you are using the Guardian as part of your news intake, at least that bit will be accurate.
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Says everything to me when people like you cannot bring themselves to questions guff like this because its printed in a publication like this.
Narrow minded and dogmatic servitude come to mind, others may also say your deluded as you look on from afar but cannot bring yourself to listen to others closer to the truth.
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Maybe you need to get a life miller and bring something to the table that is important, the government is in disarray with so much corruption and cronyism going on it would warrant another Bazalgette being employed to clean out westminster.
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Your just venting now, from afar, government corruption and cronyism is rife, everyone who's right in the head accepts that, what it might have to do with a discussion about railways in the north is just your way of padding out additional nonsense to beef up your weak point.
Before telling others to get a life i'd maybe look at your own, im sure your location must have some reasonable distractions to tear you away from an ailing football clubs board the other side of the world.
How odd!
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Says everything to me when people like you cannot bring themselves to questions guff like this because its printed in a publication like this.
Narrow minded and dogmatic servitude come to mind, others may also say your deluded as you look on from afar but cannot bring yourself to listen to others closer to the truth.
venting hmmm
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Your just venting now, from afar, government corruption and cronyism is rife, everyone who's right in the head accepts that, what it might have to do with a discussion about railways in the north is just your way of padding out additional nonsense to beef up your weak point.
Before telling others to get a life i'd maybe look at your own, im sure your location must have some reasonable distractions to tear you away from an ailing football clubs board the other side of the world.
How odd!
Was it rife before 2010?
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What’s this got to do with the thread ?
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You're saying that Govt corruption is rife.
I'm asking if that was the case before the current lot came to power. I'd have thought that was a key question, no?
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You're pal stated that there was government corruption and cronyism, i just agreed with the point before asking him the same question about hijacking the thread and bring up things not related, its noted that you and your pal do this often to deflect from points which don't suit the narrative your pushing.
So i'll ask again, what's that got to do with a thread about railway performance in the north?
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Fair did DD. I'd misunderstood your post.
I'm not very impressed at your little dig about deflection, and ordinarily I'd suggest you back that up with evidence or withdraw it.
But f**k it. It's Xmas.
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Sydney. Merry Christmas.
Will you be sitting down to the traditional emu roast?
If so, just out of idle curiosity, can you give me an idea of cooking times & oven temperatures?
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kangaroo knob is all the rage atm and it's best eaten tartare style ......... apparently
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/21/transpennine-express-services-worse-under-state-owned-olr
Oh dear, it seems like the cluster f*ck that TPE made of running the service has a knock on effect.
What i would say about returning train operators to become state run is that it will just not work if the State are not prepared to fund it correctly.
Let this be another wakeup call for Starmer, who himself has already stated he does not intent to re nationalise the railway which i think he's wrong in doing so.
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jun/21/transpennine-express-services-worse-under-state-owned-olr
Oh dear, it seems like the cluster f*ck that TPE made of running the service has a knock on effect.
What i would say about returning train operators to become state run is that it will just not work if the State are not prepared to fund it correctly.
Let this be another wakeup call for Starmer, who himself has already stated he does not intent to re nationalise the railway which i think he's wrong in doing so.
Just another one of his reneged upon promises, DD. We're going to have to get used to them.
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I see a fresh new load of strikes announced, can we please end the myth and break it to rail staff that A) you aren't heroes that worked through COVID in the same sense as NHS staff B) you aren't "working" people who just want a "fair wage"....you're extremely overpaid for the job you do and your working practices are archaic.
When you're getting paid more than a nurse for clipping a ticket, or 70k for pulling a lever BOTH of which could easily be done by a machine then you lose any moral high ground. Roll on automated trains and signalling ASAP
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I see a fresh new load of strikes announced, can we please end the myth and break it to rail staff that A) you aren't heroes that worked through COVID in the same sense as NHS staff B) you aren't "working" people who just want a "fair wage"....you're extremely overpaid for the job you do and your working practices are archaic.
When you're getting paid more than a nurse for clipping a ticket, or 70k for pulling a lever BOTH of which could easily be done by a machine then you lose any moral high ground. Roll on automated trains and signalling ASAP
And put even greater distance between the super-wealthy and the rest.
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I see a fresh new load of strikes announced, can we please end the myth and break it to rail staff that A) you aren't heroes that worked through COVID in the same sense as NHS staff B) you aren't "working" people who just want a "fair wage"....you're extremely overpaid for the job you do and your working practices are archaic.
When you're getting paid more than a nurse for clipping a ticket, or 70k for pulling a lever BOTH of which could easily be done by a machine then you lose any moral high ground. Roll on automated trains and signalling ASAP
The ignorance in your posting is quite staggering,
How do you know that they are extremely overpaid for what they may do, do you know what their JD entails?
How do you know they pull a lever that could easily be done by a machine? if so why is it not done by said machine?
Do you know how much automated trains and signalling cost? it would make HS2 look like a lucky bag buy.
Its postings like this which give the general public a very poor impression of what qualified and skilled Railway workers, drivers and engineers actually do.
Do you actually think that any employers would pay their staff that rates you state to pull LEVERS that could be "done by a machine" ?
Do you even have the first inkling in what it takes to train these highly skilled staff who are in demand all over the developed world?
Unbelievably myopic and ignorant to come out with such guff.
Educate yourself before you stick the boot in, you may just surprise yourself.
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My lad drives trains, 5 years ago Northern were recruiting 7000 applied for 30 jobs, they got the list down to 60 who were then required to do a 5 hour computer based aptitude test, on pasting that the 15 left had a 2 hour session with a psychiatrist before being offered a Job!
Anyone can apply and do, very few pass the CBAT.
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The psychometric test used to have a pass rate of less than 50% so they made it easier so employers would have a wider range of candidates to choose from.
It’s now a pass rate of just over 51%
The ironic thing is that the type of people who do most of the shouting and bad mouthing about how train drivers don’t deserve their pay rate, etc would be the very candidates who could never pass the tests due to their negativity and dogmatic attitudes, the psychologists would have a field day and get rid in the first 15mins. Actually like a few on here, with their very set political outlooks they would never be able to pass due to their extreme rigid beliefs, this type of characteristic trait would never pass the psychologists.
With regards to allowing anyone to have a go, our company now will not entertain anyone attending an interview unless they have as a minimum a Level 4 (HNC/HND) engineering qualification.
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I see a fresh new load of strikes announced, can we please end the myth and break it to rail staff that A) you aren't heroes that worked through COVID in the same sense as NHS staff B) you aren't "working" people who just want a "fair wage"....you're extremely overpaid for the job you do and your working practices are archaic.
When you're getting paid more than a nurse for clipping a ticket, or 70k for pulling a lever BOTH of which could easily be done by a machine then you lose any moral high ground. Roll on automated trains and signalling ASAP
The ignorance in your posting is quite staggering,
How do you know that they are extremely overpaid for what they may do, do you know what their JD entails?
How do you know they pull a lever that could easily be done by a machine? if so why is it not done by said machine?
Do you know how much automated trains and signalling cost? it would make HS2 look like a lucky bag buy.
Its postings like this which give the general public a very poor impression of what qualified and skilled Railway workers, drivers and engineers actually do.
Do you actually think that any employers would pay their staff that rates you state to pull LEVERS that could be "done by a machine" ?
Do you even have the first inkling in what it takes to train these highly skilled staff who are in demand all over the developed world?
Unbelievably myopic and ignorant to come out with such guff.
Educate yourself before you stick the boot in, you may just surprise yourself.
It's akin to bankers going on strike because their bonuses are too small. You could argue their jobs are technical, need to pass hard exams but they aren't on strike pretending they're the common man working people. So don't hide behind the "it's a technical job" nonesesnse the public doesn't buy it. Having to do a test is totally irrelevant to the point
You don't need to get paid more than a nurse for clipping someone's ticket, a job that's completely unnecessary in this modern age. Get rid and make the ticket cheaper. Honestly folk like you probably still want clippies on buses
You know as well as I do it's pure job protectionism. Here's hoping this union does for the rail what unions did for the cars and are about to do for royal mail. I can't wait for all the moaning royal mail workers to end up at Amazon and realise how good they've actually got it, don't even work Sundays and who on earth chooses to use royal mail these days :laugh: luckily working from home makes rail more and more irrelevant
Having worked abroad the sad thing is British workers reputation is being lazy unproductive luddites and it just gets proven again and again. From an economic POV our productivity per person is third world
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I see a fresh new load of strikes announced, can we please end the myth and break it to rail staff that A) you aren't heroes that worked through COVID in the same sense as NHS staff B) you aren't "working" people who just want a "fair wage"....you're extremely overpaid for the job you do and your working practices are archaic.
When you're getting paid more than a nurse for clipping a ticket, or 70k for pulling a lever BOTH of which could easily be done by a machine then you lose any moral high ground. Roll on automated trains and signalling ASAP
The ignorance in your posting is quite staggering,
How do you know that they are extremely overpaid for what they may do, do you know what their JD entails?
How do you know they pull a lever that could easily be done by a machine? if so why is it not done by said machine?
Do you know how much automated trains and signalling cost? it would make HS2 look like a lucky bag buy.
Its postings like this which give the general public a very poor impression of what qualified and skilled Railway workers, drivers and engineers actually do.
Do you actually think that any employers would pay their staff that rates you state to pull LEVERS that could be "done by a machine" ?
Do you even have the first inkling in what it takes to train these highly skilled staff who are in demand all over the developed world?
Unbelievably myopic and ignorant to come out with such guff.
Educate yourself before you stick the boot in, you may just surprise yourself.
It's akin to bankers going on strike because their bonuses are too small. You could argue their jobs are technical, need to pass hard exams but they aren't on strike pretending they're the common man working people. So don't hide behind the "it's a technical job" nonesesnse the public doesn't buy it. Having to do a test is totally irrelevant to the point
You don't need to get paid more than a nurse for clipping someone's ticket, a job that's completely unnecessary in this modern age. Get rid and make the ticket cheaper. Honestly folk like you probably still want clippies on buses
You know as well as I do it's pure job protectionism. Here's hoping this union does for the rail what unions did for the cars and are about to do for royal mail. I can't wait for all the moaning royal mail workers to end up at Amazon and realise how good they've actually got it, don't even work Sundays and who on earth chooses to use royal mail these days :laugh: luckily working from home makes rail more and more irrelevant
Having worked abroad the sad thing is British workers reputation is being lazy unproductive luddites and it just gets proven again and again. From an economic POV our productivity per person is third world
You know i should be surprised that you've come back here still spouting without even a minute understanding into what your supposedly complaining about, but unfortunately I'm not!
You keep talking about ticket clippers/conductors, as if that's the be all and end all of Railway careers, you do relies the railway requires just a few more staff than just ticket collectors, or is it the fact that this position fits your narrative as someone who gets paid more than you would like? i don't know, did you get turned down for a ticket collectors job? do you actually work? you come across as someone i would never consider employing just through the small example of your attitude you have demonstrated here.
You then start ranting about it being akin to bankers going on strike because their bonuses are too small? and that i'm hiding behind "its a technical job nonsense"and the public don't buy it. Like i said previously , i dont know what you do, if you actually do anything, but if you want to work in my area of specialism on the Railway you would need as a minimum a level 4 or 5 quantification (HND?HNC) that's just to get you thorough the door, The "test" that you refer to as totally irrelevant will only get you into an interview for a train drivers position, nothings guaranteed at that point, if you got past that point you would then spend the next 3 years as a PQA trainee driver, who if they did not keep on top of their coursework, assessments, DRA's and rules exams would ensure you would never reach a position as qualified, even then you would be required to demonstrate your competence on a regular bass through an ongoing competence management system, it never ends, some staff also require business management qualifications just as in any business, including collage study.
You then go on to talk about "pure job protectionism" so you, in effect don't wish to see workers protecting the terms and conditions of their job? you show even more ignorance in not realising that many rail staff work weekends as part of their working week so in effect not being inflexible in their working.
Ive probably gone on too long now but im just trying to educate someone who rants about rail workers but yet knows nothing about what they require to be able to complete their job roles successfully.
Maybe you are just envious of what certain trades can earn on the railways, i don't know, you just come across as very ignorant and your not prepared to educate yourself on something you are ranting about so come across a proper plum.
Maybe next time don't get taken in by tabloid nonsense.
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I see a fresh new load of strikes announced, can we please end the myth and break it to rail staff that A) you aren't heroes that worked through COVID in the same sense as NHS staff B) you aren't "working" people who just want a "fair wage"....you're extremely overpaid for the job you do and your working practices are archaic.
When you're getting paid more than a nurse for clipping a ticket, or 70k for pulling a lever BOTH of which could easily be done by a machine then you lose any moral high ground. Roll on automated trains and signalling ASAP
The ignorance in your posting is quite staggering,
How do you know that they are extremely overpaid for what they may do, do you know what their JD entails?
How do you know they pull a lever that could easily be done by a machine? if so why is it not done by said machine?
Do you know how much automated trains and signalling cost? it would make HS2 look like a lucky bag buy.
Its postings like this which give the general public a very poor impression of what qualified and skilled Railway workers, drivers and engineers actually do.
Do you actually think that any employers would pay their staff that rates you state to pull LEVERS that could be "done by a machine" ?
Do you even have the first inkling in what it takes to train these highly skilled staff who are in demand all over the developed world?
Unbelievably myopic and ignorant to come out with such guff.
Educate yourself before you stick the boot in, you may just surprise yourself.
It's akin to bankers going on strike because their bonuses are too small. You could argue their jobs are technical, need to pass hard exams but they aren't on strike pretending they're the common man working people. So don't hide behind the "it's a technical job" nonesesnse the public doesn't buy it. Having to do a test is totally irrelevant to the point
You don't need to get paid more than a nurse for clipping someone's ticket, a job that's completely unnecessary in this modern age. Get rid and make the ticket cheaper. Honestly folk like you probably still want clippies on buses
You know as well as I do it's pure job protectionism. Here's hoping this union does for the rail what unions did for the cars and are about to do for royal mail. I can't wait for all the moaning royal mail workers to end up at Amazon and realise how good they've actually got it, don't even work Sundays and who on earth chooses to use royal mail these days :laugh: luckily working from home makes rail more and more irrelevant
Having worked abroad the sad thing is British workers reputation is being lazy unproductive luddites and it just gets proven again and again. From an economic POV our productivity per person is third world
You know i should be surprised that you've come back here still spouting without even a minute understanding into what your supposedly complaining about, but unfortunately I'm not!
You keep talking about ticket clippers/conductors, as if that's the be all and end all of Railway careers, you do relies the railway requires just a few more staff than just ticket collectors, or is it the fact that this position fits your narrative as someone who gets paid more than you would like? i don't know, did you get turned down for a ticket collectors job? do you actually work? you come across as someone i would never consider employing just through the small example of your attitude you have demonstrated here.
You then start ranting about it being akin to bankers going on strike because their bonuses are too small? and that i'm hiding behind "its a technical job nonsense"and the public don't buy it. Like i said previously , i dont know what you do, if you actually do anything, but if you want to work in my area of specialism on the Railway you would need as a minimum a level 4 or 5 quantification (HND?HNC) that's just to get you thorough the door, The "test" that you refer to as totally irrelevant will only get you into an interview for a train drivers position, nothings guaranteed at that point, if you got past that point you would then spend the next 3 years as a PQA trainee driver, who if they did not keep on top of their coursework, assessments, DRA's and rules exams would ensure you would never reach a position as qualified, even then you would be required to demonstrate your competence on a regular bass through an ongoing competence management system, it never ends, some staff also require business management qualifications just as in any business, including collage study.
You then go on to talk about "pure job protectionism" so you, in effect don't wish to see workers protecting the terms and conditions of their job? you show even more ignorance in not realising that many rail staff work weekends as part of their working week so in effect not being inflexible in their working.
Ive probably gone on too long now but im just trying to educate someone who rants about rail workers but yet knows nothing about what they require to be able to complete their job roles successfully.
Maybe you are just envious of what certain trades can earn on the railways, i don't know, you just come across as very ignorant and your not prepared to educate yourself on something you are ranting about so come across a proper plum.
Maybe next time don't get taken in by tabloid nonsense.
I work on the railway, have done for the last 8 years. The issue is people don't necessarily know how the industry works unless they work in it.
Which is the same for other sectors, believe everything the MPs and tabloids tell them.
Not necessarily their fault, they just need correcting and explaining how it all works.
A lot of people are jealous because the unions actually get them a good deal for pay and conditions, the latter is important as well.
The railway also relies on overtime to keep things running that is a fact.
Also this thing about driverless trains, even if that was to be the case there would still be a driver sat in the cab anyway.
-
I see a fresh new load of strikes announced, can we please end the myth and break it to rail staff that A) you aren't heroes that worked through COVID in the same sense as NHS staff B) you aren't "working" people who just want a "fair wage"....you're extremely overpaid for the job you do and your working practices are archaic.
When you're getting paid more than a nurse for clipping a ticket, or 70k for pulling a lever BOTH of which could easily be done by a machine then you lose any moral high ground. Roll on automated trains and signalling ASAP
The ignorance in your posting is quite staggering,
How do you know that they are extremely overpaid for what they may do, do you know what their JD entails?
How do you know they pull a lever that could easily be done by a machine? if so why is it not done by said machine?
Do you know how much automated trains and signalling cost? it would make HS2 look like a lucky bag buy.
Its postings like this which give the general public a very poor impression of what qualified and skilled Railway workers, drivers and engineers actually do.
Do you actually think that any employers would pay their staff that rates you state to pull LEVERS that could be "done by a machine" ?
Do you even have the first inkling in what it takes to train these highly skilled staff who are in demand all over the developed world?
Unbelievably myopic and ignorant to come out with such guff.
Educate yourself before you stick the boot in, you may just surprise yourself.
It's akin to bankers going on strike because their bonuses are too small. You could argue their jobs are technical, need to pass hard exams but they aren't on strike pretending they're the common man working people. So don't hide behind the "it's a technical job" nonesesnse the public doesn't buy it. Having to do a test is totally irrelevant to the point
You don't need to get paid more than a nurse for clipping someone's ticket, a job that's completely unnecessary in this modern age. Get rid and make the ticket cheaper. Honestly folk like you probably still want clippies on buses
You know as well as I do it's pure job protectionism. Here's hoping this union does for the rail what unions did for the cars and are about to do for royal mail. I can't wait for all the moaning royal mail workers to end up at Amazon and realise how good they've actually got it, don't even work Sundays and who on earth chooses to use royal mail these days :laugh: luckily working from home makes rail more and more irrelevant
Having worked abroad the sad thing is British workers reputation is being lazy unproductive luddites and it just gets proven again and again. From an economic POV our productivity per person is third world
You know i should be surprised that you've come back here still spouting without even a minute understanding into what your supposedly complaining about, but unfortunately I'm not!
You keep talking about ticket clippers/conductors, as if that's the be all and end all of Railway careers, you do relies the railway requires just a few more staff than just ticket collectors, or is it the fact that this position fits your narrative as someone who gets paid more than you would like? i don't know, did you get turned down for a ticket collectors job? do you actually work? you come across as someone i would never consider employing just through the small example of your attitude you have demonstrated here.
You then start ranting about it being akin to bankers going on strike because their bonuses are too small? and that i'm hiding behind "its a technical job nonsense"and the public don't buy it. Like i said previously , i dont know what you do, if you actually do anything, but if you want to work in my area of specialism on the Railway you would need as a minimum a level 4 or 5 quantification (HND?HNC) that's just to get you thorough the door, The "test" that you refer to as totally irrelevant will only get you into an interview for a train drivers position, nothings guaranteed at that point, if you got past that point you would then spend the next 3 years as a PQA trainee driver, who if they did not keep on top of their coursework, assessments, DRA's and rules exams would ensure you would never reach a position as qualified, even then you would be required to demonstrate your competence on a regular bass through an ongoing competence management system, it never ends, some staff also require business management qualifications just as in any business, including collage study.
You then go on to talk about "pure job protectionism" so you, in effect don't wish to see workers protecting the terms and conditions of their job? you show even more ignorance in not realising that many rail staff work weekends as part of their working week so in effect not being inflexible in their working.
Ive probably gone on too long now but im just trying to educate someone who rants about rail workers but yet knows nothing about what they require to be able to complete their job roles successfully.
Maybe you are just envious of what certain trades can earn on the railways, i don't know, you just come across as very ignorant and your not prepared to educate yourself on something you are ranting about so come across a proper plum.
Maybe next time don't get taken in by tabloid nonsense.
Fancy certificates don't mean something extra, coz I gone got me a NVQ I iz well educated int I. My bin man probably has a health and safety certificate that I couldn't pass, it's not relevant to what I was saying. Fully support a bin man going on strike because he is a "hard working man", "one of the people " etc, as is a teacher, as is a nurse. But sorry rail staff particularly drivers, you simply aren't
You're blocking modernisation, you're protecting unnecessary jobs, and you're in this privileged position thar you want more more more. Like I said, Royal Mail will be gone soon and then those picket liners with their massive pensions and not having to work sundays will be at amazon wishing they'd never striked. The same can't come soon enough
And no I haven't been rejected for job on the rails :P quite happy in my current well paid job that I will not take for granted nor pretend I'm "one of the hard done by just trying to make a living" like those well qualified rail folk
I fully recognise that overpaid luddites is only a part of the problem with our mess of a railway and how its run from the government clowns down. But its a pure embarassement to pay €5 to €20 for a high speed ticket on Europe and then look at what we've got
-
I see a fresh new load of strikes announced, can we please end the myth and break it to rail staff that A) you aren't heroes that worked through COVID in the same sense as NHS staff B) you aren't "working" people who just want a "fair wage"....you're extremely overpaid for the job you do and your working practices are archaic.
When you're getting paid more than a nurse for clipping a ticket, or 70k for pulling a lever BOTH of which could easily be done by a machine then you lose any moral high ground. Roll on automated trains and signalling ASAP
The ignorance in your posting is quite staggering,
How do you know that they are extremely overpaid for what they may do, do you know what their JD entails?
How do you know they pull a lever that could easily be done by a machine? if so why is it not done by said machine?
Do you know how much automated trains and signalling cost? it would make HS2 look like a lucky bag buy.
Its postings like this which give the general public a very poor impression of what qualified and skilled Railway workers, drivers and engineers actually do.
Do you actually think that any employers would pay their staff that rates you state to pull LEVERS that could be "done by a machine" ?
Do you even have the first inkling in what it takes to train these highly skilled staff who are in demand all over the developed world?
Unbelievably myopic and ignorant to come out with such guff.
Educate yourself before you stick the boot in, you may just surprise yourself.
It's akin to bankers going on strike because their bonuses are too small. You could argue their jobs are technical, need to pass hard exams but they aren't on strike pretending they're the common man working people. So don't hide behind the "it's a technical job" nonesesnse the public doesn't buy it. Having to do a test is totally irrelevant to the point
You don't need to get paid more than a nurse for clipping someone's ticket, a job that's completely unnecessary in this modern age. Get rid and make the ticket cheaper. Honestly folk like you probably still want clippies on buses
You know as well as I do it's pure job protectionism. Here's hoping this union does for the rail what unions did for the cars and are about to do for royal mail. I can't wait for all the moaning royal mail workers to end up at Amazon and realise how good they've actually got it, don't even work Sundays and who on earth chooses to use royal mail these days :laugh: luckily working from home makes rail more and more irrelevant
Having worked abroad the sad thing is British workers reputation is being lazy unproductive luddites and it just gets proven again and again. From an economic POV our productivity per person is third world
You know i should be surprised that you've come back here still spouting without even a minute understanding into what your supposedly complaining about, but unfortunately I'm not!
You keep talking about ticket clippers/conductors, as if that's the be all and end all of Railway careers, you do relies the railway requires just a few more staff than just ticket collectors, or is it the fact that this position fits your narrative as someone who gets paid more than you would like? i don't know, did you get turned down for a ticket collectors job? do you actually work? you come across as someone i would never consider employing just through the small example of your attitude you have demonstrated here.
You then start ranting about it being akin to bankers going on strike because their bonuses are too small? and that i'm hiding behind "its a technical job nonsense"and the public don't buy it. Like i said previously , i dont know what you do, if you actually do anything, but if you want to work in my area of specialism on the Railway you would need as a minimum a level 4 or 5 quantification (HND?HNC) that's just to get you thorough the door, The "test" that you refer to as totally irrelevant will only get you into an interview for a train drivers position, nothings guaranteed at that point, if you got past that point you would then spend the next 3 years as a PQA trainee driver, who if they did not keep on top of their coursework, assessments, DRA's and rules exams would ensure you would never reach a position as qualified, even then you would be required to demonstrate your competence on a regular bass through an ongoing competence management system, it never ends, some staff also require business management qualifications just as in any business, including collage study.
You then go on to talk about "pure job protectionism" so you, in effect don't wish to see workers protecting the terms and conditions of their job? you show even more ignorance in not realising that many rail staff work weekends as part of their working week so in effect not being inflexible in their working.
Ive probably gone on too long now but im just trying to educate someone who rants about rail workers but yet knows nothing about what they require to be able to complete their job roles successfully.
Maybe you are just envious of what certain trades can earn on the railways, i don't know, you just come across as very ignorant and your not prepared to educate yourself on something you are ranting about so come across a proper plum.
Maybe next time don't get taken in by tabloid nonsense.
Fancy certificates don't mean something extra, coz I gone got me a NVQ I iz well educated int I. My bin man probably has a health and safety certificate that I couldn't pass, it's not relevant to what I was saying. Fully support a bin man going on strike because he is a "hard working man", "one of the people " etc, as is a teacher, as is a nurse. But sorry rail staff particularly drivers, you simply aren't
You're blocking modernisation, you're protecting unnecessary jobs, and you're in this privileged position thar you want more more more. Like I said, Royal Mail will be gone soon and then those picket liners with their massive pensions and not having to work sundays will be at amazon wishing they'd never striked. The same can't come soon enough
And no I haven't been rejected for job on the rails :P quite happy in my current well paid job that I will not take for granted nor pretend I'm "one of the hard done by just trying to make a living" like those well qualified rail folk
I fully recognise that overpaid luddites is only a part of the problem with our mess of a railway and how its run from the government clowns down. But its a pure embarassement to pay €5 to €20 for a high speed ticket on Europe and then look at what we've got
Any thoughts on the £500m that got paid out to shareholders last year .
-
I see a fresh new load of strikes announced, can we please end the myth and break it to rail staff that A) you aren't heroes that worked through COVID in the same sense as NHS staff B) you aren't "working" people who just want a "fair wage"....you're extremely overpaid for the job you do and your working practices are archaic.
When you're getting paid more than a nurse for clipping a ticket, or 70k for pulling a lever BOTH of which could easily be done by a machine then you lose any moral high ground. Roll on automated trains and signalling ASAP
The ignorance in your posting is quite staggering,
How do you know that they are extremely overpaid for what they may do, do you know what their JD entails?
How do you know they pull a lever that could easily be done by a machine? if so why is it not done by said machine?
Do you know how much automated trains and signalling cost? it would make HS2 look like a lucky bag buy.
Its postings like this which give the general public a very poor impression of what qualified and skilled Railway workers, drivers and engineers actually do.
Do you actually think that any employers would pay their staff that rates you state to pull LEVERS that could be "done by a machine" ?
Do you even have the first inkling in what it takes to train these highly skilled staff who are in demand all over the developed world?
Unbelievably myopic and ignorant to come out with such guff.
Educate yourself before you stick the boot in, you may just surprise yourself.
It's akin to bankers going on strike because their bonuses are too small. You could argue their jobs are technical, need to pass hard exams but they aren't on strike pretending they're the common man working people. So don't hide behind the "it's a technical job" nonesesnse the public doesn't buy it. Having to do a test is totally irrelevant to the point
You don't need to get paid more than a nurse for clipping someone's ticket, a job that's completely unnecessary in this modern age. Get rid and make the ticket cheaper. Honestly folk like you probably still want clippies on buses
You know as well as I do it's pure job protectionism. Here's hoping this union does for the rail what unions did for the cars and are about to do for royal mail. I can't wait for all the moaning royal mail workers to end up at Amazon and realise how good they've actually got it, don't even work Sundays and who on earth chooses to use royal mail these days :laugh: luckily working from home makes rail more and more irrelevant
Having worked abroad the sad thing is British workers reputation is being lazy unproductive luddites and it just gets proven again and again. From an economic POV our productivity per person is third world
You know i should be surprised that you've come back here still spouting without even a minute understanding into what your supposedly complaining about, but unfortunately I'm not!
You keep talking about ticket clippers/conductors, as if that's the be all and end all of Railway careers, you do relies the railway requires just a few more staff than just ticket collectors, or is it the fact that this position fits your narrative as someone who gets paid more than you would like? i don't know, did you get turned down for a ticket collectors job? do you actually work? you come across as someone i would never consider employing just through the small example of your attitude you have demonstrated here.
You then start ranting about it being akin to bankers going on strike because their bonuses are too small? and that i'm hiding behind "its a technical job nonsense"and the public don't buy it. Like i said previously , i dont know what you do, if you actually do anything, but if you want to work in my area of specialism on the Railway you would need as a minimum a level 4 or 5 quantification (HND?HNC) that's just to get you thorough the door, The "test" that you refer to as totally irrelevant will only get you into an interview for a train drivers position, nothings guaranteed at that point, if you got past that point you would then spend the next 3 years as a PQA trainee driver, who if they did not keep on top of their coursework, assessments, DRA's and rules exams would ensure you would never reach a position as qualified, even then you would be required to demonstrate your competence on a regular bass through an ongoing competence management system, it never ends, some staff also require business management qualifications just as in any business, including collage study.
You then go on to talk about "pure job protectionism" so you, in effect don't wish to see workers protecting the terms and conditions of their job? you show even more ignorance in not realising that many rail staff work weekends as part of their working week so in effect not being inflexible in their working.
Ive probably gone on too long now but im just trying to educate someone who rants about rail workers but yet knows nothing about what they require to be able to complete their job roles successfully.
Maybe you are just envious of what certain trades can earn on the railways, i don't know, you just come across as very ignorant and your not prepared to educate yourself on something you are ranting about so come across a proper plum.
Maybe next time don't get taken in by tabloid nonsense.
Fancy certificates don't mean something extra, coz I gone got me a NVQ I iz well educated int I. My bin man probably has a health and safety certificate that I couldn't pass, it's not relevant to what I was saying. Fully support a bin man going on strike because he is a "hard working man", "one of the people " etc, as is a teacher, as is a nurse. But sorry rail staff particularly drivers, you simply aren't
You're blocking modernisation, you're protecting unnecessary jobs, and you're in this privileged position thar you want more more more. Like I said, Royal Mail will be gone soon and then those picket liners with their massive pensions and not having to work sundays will be at amazon wishing they'd never striked. The same can't come soon enough
And no I haven't been rejected for job on the rails :P quite happy in my current well paid job that I will not take for granted nor pretend I'm "one of the hard done by just trying to make a living" like those well qualified rail folk
I fully recognise that overpaid luddites is only a part of the problem with our mess of a railway and how its run from the government clowns down. But its a pure embarassement to pay €5 to €20 for a high speed ticket on Europe and then look at what we've got
Any thoughts on the £500m that got paid out to shareholders last year .
John Major has a lot to answer for.
If you could of created a situation that would have the worst possible outcome for national rail in this country then this joker hit the jackpot.
His botched privatisation was always going to create new and more intractable issues down the line from the formation of Railtrack right through to the recent botched handling during the pandemic crisis.
To sell off assets and then manufacture a situation where you need to pay the purchases a subsidy to run the venture is the politics of the madhouse, its become bigger and more onerous on the taxpayer every year to the point where we now have a situation where they have virtually taken back a majority of the franchises and are running them as not for profit companies. Why this could have not been in the original plan i think we all know the answer to that one. The cost to the state over the last 30 years could and should have resulted in massive improvements compared to the small ones we have achieved under this restructuring.
The fact that private companies paid to take on the franchises but with inbuilt clauses that allowed them to offload when the costs became prohibitive resulting in the taxpayer to then have to take the losses again is a national disgrace but goes to show that governments and civil servants will always get the runaround when private investment are allowed to dictate the contract terms. Obviously when it involves shareholders cash then they will always expect to see some sort of return on their investment, just the same as a savings account holder wanting the best interest return he can get on his savings, that's the system and i have no issues with that.
What we desperately need is government with ambition and drive to get to the root of these issues and looking ahead 20 to 390 years and doing what's best for the state, not for their own political sakes.
Until this happens we will always have this stunted and chronic political party self interest to deal with, we need a major reset, we have no one currently with the right attitude to do the right thing.