Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: roverstillidie91 on December 29, 2022, 12:04:13 pm
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I've just been witnessing the current goings on from Tom Anderson disrespecting the fans to the Sponsors paying the players wages to fans now voting with their feet.
Clearly there needs to be some form of dialogue ASAP with the board, Copps etc.
A face to face meeting or even a Teams video chat between fans and the club or something.
We are 4 points off the Play-Offs and I feel that the atmosphere is going to derail or season.
Time for some pro-active dialogue between Club and fans!
Can this be facilitated?
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It sure needs it
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I've just been witnessing the current goings on from Tom Anderson disrespecting the fans to the Sponsors paying the players wages to fans now voting with their feet.
Clearly there needs to be some form of dialogue ASAP with the board, Copps etc.
A face to face meeting or even a Teams video chat between fans and the club or something.
We are 4 points off the Play-Offs and I feel that the atmosphere is going to derail or season.
Time for some pro-active dialogue between Club and fans!
Can this be facilitated?
Have the sponsors paid the wages?
On the face of it that's a serious allegation.
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I've just been witnessing the current goings on from Tom Anderson disrespecting the fans to the Sponsors paying the players wages to fans now voting with their feet.
Clearly there needs to be some form of dialogue ASAP with the board, Copps etc.
A face to face meeting or even a Teams video chat between fans and the club or something.
We are 4 points off the Play-Offs and I feel that the atmosphere is going to derail or season.
Time for some pro-active dialogue between Club and fans!
Can this be facilitated?
Have the sponsors paid the wages?
On the face of it that's a serious allegation.
it was quoted on social media, not by myself of course just to make that clear
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I've just been witnessing the current goings on from Tom Anderson disrespecting the fans to the Sponsors paying the players wages to fans now voting with their feet.
Clearly there needs to be some form of dialogue ASAP with the board, Copps etc.
A face to face meeting or even a Teams video chat between fans and the club or something.
We are 4 points off the Play-Offs and I feel that the atmosphere is going to derail or season.
Time for some pro-active dialogue between Club and fans!
Can this be facilitated?
Have the sponsors paid the wages?
On the face of it that's a serious allegation.
it was quoted on social media, not by myself of course just to make that clear
Fair enough, but there's a lot of things quoted on social media, it doesn't necessarily make it correct.
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Am sure SM has already rubbished the wages thing.
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I've just been witnessing the current goings on from Tom Anderson disrespecting the fans to the Sponsors paying the players wages to fans now voting with their feet.
Clearly there needs to be some form of dialogue ASAP with the board, Copps etc.
A face to face meeting or even a Teams video chat between fans and the club or something.
We are 4 points off the Play-Offs and I feel that the atmosphere is going to derail or season.
Time for some pro-active dialogue between Club and fans!
Can this be facilitated?
Fans haven’t voted with their feet. People saying after some piss poor performances that they will not renew their season tickets (almost all of which certainly will) does not constitute people voting with their feet. There were for instance several hundred at Tranmere in what was a healthy away support.
We are playing largely diabolically bad football and getting the requisite results, but the club is not about to collapse and is not financially insolvent heading to oblivion.
We aren’t going up this season and we aren’t going down. It’s terrible football we are having to watch but think of this season as rebuilding and reconfiguring. This is a group of players that isn’t working, but there are two windows to put much of that right. Not sure what convening an emergency meeting is meant to solve. This is bad football not bad governance.
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I've just been witnessing the current goings on from Tom Anderson disrespecting the fans to the Sponsors paying the players wages to fans now voting with their feet.
Clearly there needs to be some form of dialogue ASAP with the board, Copps etc.
A face to face meeting or even a Teams video chat between fans and the club or something.
We are 4 points off the Play-Offs and I feel that the atmosphere is going to derail or season.
Time for some pro-active dialogue between Club and fans!
Can this be facilitated?
Have the sponsors paid the wages?
On the face of it that's a serious allegation.
it was quoted on social media, not by myself of course just to make that clear
Fair enough, but there's a lot of things quoted on social media, it doesn't necessarily make it correct.
I did think it was a bizarre claim, but the more pressing thing I believe is to get some sort of statement or communication by the club or something
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About what?! The board is meant to offer a view on how we counter the press, or our total absence of pace or width?!
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I've just been witnessing the current goings on from Tom Anderson disrespecting the fans to the Sponsors paying the players wages to fans now voting with their feet.
Clearly there needs to be some form of dialogue ASAP with the board, Copps etc.
A face to face meeting or even a Teams video chat between fans and the club or something.
We are 4 points off the Play-Offs and I feel that the atmosphere is going to derail or season.
Time for some pro-active dialogue between Club and fans!
Can this be facilitated?
Fans haven’t voted with their feet. People saying after some piss poor performances that they will not renew their season tickets (almost all of which certainly will) does not constitute people voting with their feet. There were for instance several hundred at Tranmere in what was a healthy away support.
We are playing largely diabolically bad football and getting the requisite results, but the club is not about to collapse and is not financially insolvent heading to oblivion.
We aren’t going up this season and we aren’t going down. It’s terrible football we are having to watch but think of this season as rebuilding and reconfiguring. This is a group of players that isn’t working, but there are two windows to put much of that right. Not sure what convening an emergency meeting is meant to solve. This is bad football not bad governance.
I think that Copps has certainly stated that the club is self sustainable and is self generating.
I never understand some rovers fans who think they should tell a late 70s multi millionaire what he should do with his money though however.
He has put plenty of money in in the past.
I know you say fans aren't voting with their feet and you're confident that they won't however it will create uncertainty especially for budget planning for January and next season.
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Am sure SM has already rubbished the wages thing.
So I understand.
The club's remained quite sanguine about it. Anyone starting a rumour like that about my business would find themselves needing legal representation sharpish.
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I get that but a handful of people on social media saying they won’t renew (they almost all will) is not a representative or significant sample. Another season in League Two will of course reduce attendances, and am sure this will always have been factored in to budgets. We are not going to see wholesale non renewal of season tickets though. It’s like opinion polling. Nobody ever says they are going to vote Tory but the bas**rds always end up getting in power.
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I've just been witnessing the current goings on from Tom Anderson disrespecting the fans to the Sponsors paying the players wages to fans now voting with their feet.
Clearly there needs to be some form of dialogue ASAP with the board, Copps etc.
A face to face meeting or even a Teams video chat between fans and the club or something.
We are 4 points off the Play-Offs and I feel that the atmosphere is going to derail or season.
Time for some pro-active dialogue between Club and fans!
Can this be facilitated?
Have the sponsors paid the wages?
On the face of it that's a serious allegation.
it was quoted on social media, not by myself of course just to make that clear
So did you challenge the claim on Social media? Why should the club even get involved in this silly tittle-tattle, a pure invention from someone with an agenda.
The talking needs to be done on the pitch and actions taken during the transfer window. At the end of window, if we are well short of where we need to be, then you would expect Copps/Schofield to spell out why.
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The club almost certainly does need to improve it's communication and we'd love as fans to see extra investment in the first team.
I can't see for one moment the allegations that sponsors paid the players wages to be true though.
Do the club need an EGM may be so but that's with each other as owners and directors and management. I'd like to think that meetings and discussions are happening.
Results and style of play have been severely lacking and that's down to JC to discuss with DS one would assume.
Let's see what happens in the near future. The club has suffered from sadly losing Dick Watson it seems from the outside at least his passion for the club is missing. Blunt and Gavin took a stake of ownership didn't they when the Watson family stepped away from the club (leaving any monies owed written off). Our club should be in a healthy state off the pitch one would assume.
Is it time for the shadow board to be involved in discussions? Yes for sure. A vision/expectation for what's to come in January would be great.
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Theres always a minority rabble rousing on social media claiming they speak for the majority, we’ve had it in the past
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Theres always a minority rabble rousing on social media claiming they speak for the majority, we’ve had it in the past
What may have started off as a minority is quickly growing in numbers
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We have never been the same since we last the stadium’s name that was the one and only KS
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Theres always a minority rabble rousing on social media claiming they speak for the majority, we’ve had it in the past
Isn’t that the same as this site were a minority of the supporters believe they talk for the majority.
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Theres always a minority rabble rousing on social media claiming they speak for the majority, we’ve had it in the past
Isn’t that the same as this site were a minority of the supporters believe they talk for the majority.
Like who?
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Theres always a minority rabble rousing on social media claiming they speak for the majority, we’ve had it in the past
Isn’t that the same as this site were a minority of the supporters believe they talk for the majority.
Spot on
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Am sure SM has already rubbished the wages thing.
So I understand.
The club's remained quite sanguine about it. Anyone starting a rumour like that about my business would find themselves needing legal representation sharpish.
Do you think there's someone trawling all and every social media to find everything to respond to? My experience of ridiculous accusations of this kind are they are well hidden away and only see the light of day when passed on and passed on as if they were the gospel truth by gullible idiots.
For example - you say they'd be needing legal representation if they did this to your business. Do you know who should the club sue over this, or is it impossible to find who the original source was?
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Theres always a minority rabble rousing on social media claiming they speak for the majority, we’ve had it in the past
And when they get the communication they demand, instantly say they don't believe what they've been told (because they of course, know the 'real truth'). Catch 22 for the club.
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For me there's a few points;
1. The club can't comment on every single rumour that's made that would be ridiculous. Are the so called financial rumours likely? Probably not but they could indirectly easily quash it if so.
2. The club communications have not been particularly forthcoming of late. Yes a lot of angst is driven by 90 minutes on a Saturday (when winning nobody cares), but there doesn't seem to be much real intent to quell negativity right now. I felt there was at the start of the season but it's quickly dropped.
3. Just what is the long term strategy for the club and owner. Does the owner want to stay in charge for 3 months, 5 years, 10 years? Are they actively interested in selling or fully committed to being as we are?
4. Emergency meeting - if I was the club I wouldn't do it, it implies a crisis and gives a mouthpiece to anyone to throw accusations that are largely unfounded. But they should talk through some means publicly.
I don't know the answer to much of that if I'm honest. What I do know is the current all round position and feel of the club is probably the lowest it's been for at least 15 years.
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A lot of the social media turmoil is caused by keyboard warriors of which a big percentage haven’t started shaving yet
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A lot of the social media turmoil is caused by keyboard warriors of which a big percentage haven’t started shaving yet
That doesn't make it less true.
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A lot of the social media turmoil is caused by keyboard warriors of which a big percentage haven’t started shaving yet
Let's not further alienate our fellow supporters. The club is in enough of a bad place at the moment.
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Another point, how would the club look if they sued fans, which is exactly how it would be painted?
People can make unfounded allegations and probably get away with it, as the club would never want to respond in a way that would question it's integrity.
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I wouldn’t discount the fact that people might not renew STs next season either.
Two of the lads I go to games with aren’t going to the game tonight because they are simply fed up of watching what is being served up.
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If we win tonight bet they'll be there on Sunday
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Do Blunt and Bramall go to the games?
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I've just been witnessing the current goings on from Tom Anderson disrespecting the fans to the Sponsors paying the players wages to fans now voting with their feet.
Clearly there needs to be some form of dialogue ASAP with the board, Copps etc.
A face to face meeting or even a Teams video chat between fans and the club or something.
We are 4 points off the Play-Offs and I feel that the atmosphere is going to derail or season.
Time for some pro-active dialogue between Club and fans!
Can this be facilitated?
Hi,
I appreciate the sentiment, I really do. But I have to say that I think its far too early to be reacting on such a scale just yet, and mostly for the reasons that other posters have already mentioned.
Firstly, the rumour that a sponsor, namely Eco Power, have paid players wages in the last month is just preposterous. I've also been made aware that somebody states the situation is much worse than that and we're close to administration is again nonsense. I meet regularly with the club, I have a good relationship with Gavin and also with Richard the Finance Director, and I can assure you that we are in a very healthy financial position. That doesn't mean that we're rolling in spare cash, but what it does mean is that we are in control of our finances, and that we're on track with regards to the budget. Which in turn means that we're going to have finance available for this transfer window.
We do have some pinch points, just like any business, and they're principally around going out of the cup competitions early doors and the massive increase in our utility costs. Both of those points are being addressed.
For some individuals to suggest that TB, who has sunk over £20m into DRFC, would put the club and his investment at risk for a few thousand £'s is just too ridiculous for words. The FD, and it would be his responsibility, would no doubt ask TB for the money first, then the bank, then alternative sources. (I'm not suggesting that's the case just that how daft it would be) Why approach a sponsor when TB has never fallen short of dipping into his pocket when required?
For that reason alone I couldn't in all honesty ask the club to call an emergency meeting, they would just dismiss our fears out of hand.
The second reason is that from a playing point of view the club would answer that there are some concerns, obviously losing like we did on Saturday doesn't help, but we need to see things play out a bit longer. 4 points adrift off a play-off place and with a new manager who's been in charge for 8 games does not constitute a full blown crisis.
I do have some concerns myself with regard to certain parts of the club that I feel have been going backwards in the last year or two, but again not enough reason to be calling an emergency meeting, in fact not really enough reason to debate those on here. Some of those issues have already been pointed out by others, namely communication etc. but these are topics I've raised repeatedly and will continue to do so.
If you have other concerns then please feel free to let me know, I'm happy as usual to put all points across.
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Do Blunt and Bramall go to the games?
Yes of course they do.
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Do Blunt and Bramall go to the games?
Yes of course they do.
Poor buggers.
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Do Blunt and Bramall go to the games?
Yes of course they do.
Good, our demise under their direction should be hitting home then.
I half expected them to be avoiding it.
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Do Blunt and Bramall go to the games?
Yes of course they do.
Good, our demise under their direction should be hitting home then.
I half expected them to be avoiding it.
I'm not sure if TB has missed a game all season, I could be wrong. He's usually sat in the directors section with JC, which if you think about it gives him much more insight in what the clubs trying to do!!
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I wouldn’t discount the fact that people might not renew STs next season either.
Two of the lads I go to games with aren’t going to the game tonight because they are simply fed up of watching what is being served up.
One of our four isn’t renewing next year and there’s only two going tonight. The only reason that I am going is due our daughters boyfriend wanting to see a game otherwise I wouldn’t be bothering.
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I wouldn’t discount the fact that people might not renew STs next season either.
Two of the lads I go to games with aren’t going to the game tonight because they are simply fed up of watching what is being served up.
One of our four isn’t renewing next year and there is only me going tonight. The only reason that I am going is due our daughters boyfriend wanting to see a game otherwise I wouldn’t be bothering.
You trying to get rid of him? :laugh:
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Do Blunt and Bramall go to the games?
Yes of course they do.
Good, our demise under their direction should be hitting home then.
I half expected them to be avoiding it.
I'm not sure if TB has missed a game all season, I could be wrong. He's usually sat in the directors section with JC, which if you think about it gives him much more insight in what the clubs trying to do!!
I’d love to be a fly on the wall and hear that conversation
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Do Blunt and Bramall go to the games?
Yes of course they do.
Good, our demise under their direction should be hitting home then.
I half expected them to be avoiding it.
I'm not sure if TB has missed a game all season, I could be wrong. He's usually sat in the directors section with JC, which if you think about it gives him much more insight in what the clubs trying to do!!
I’d love to be a fly on the wall and hear that conversation
Would certainly love to have heard them trying to figure out the Mitchell/Anderson tactics the other day!
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Do Blunt and Bramall go to the games?
Yes of course they do.
Good, our demise under their direction should be hitting home then.
I half expected them to be avoiding it.
I'm not sure if TB has missed a game all season, I could be wrong. He's usually sat in the directors section with JC, which if you think about it gives him much more insight in what the clubs trying to do!!
I sit about 10 foot away from the Directors Box and would say although TB has attended games this Season , i would say that he has missed more than he has attended IMO, but could be wrong.
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Is L2 a better fit for the club with lower wages and still reasonable crowds still in attendance ?
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Is L2 a better fit for the club with lower wages and still reasonable crowds still in attendance ?
I’m not sure how many times I have to answer this very question on this forum, and I’m sure I’ve done this on at least 8/9 occasions, but the answer is no.
The reduction in player wages and lower ticket prices and attendance does not in anyway compensate for the loss in solidarity payments and TV revenue.
We’re better off in lg1.
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If we win tonight bet they'll be there on Sunday
I wouldn’t put money on that mate.
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I wouldn’t discount the fact that people might not renew STs next season either.
Two of the lads I go to games with aren’t going to the game tonight because they are simply fed up of watching what is being served up.
One of our four isn’t renewing next year and there’s only two going tonight. The only reason that I am going is due our daughters boyfriend wanting to see a game otherwise I wouldn’t be bothering.
[/quouteI wouldn’t discount the fact that people might not renew STs next season either.
Two of the lads I go to games with aren’t going to the game tonight because they are simply fed up of watching what is being served up.
One of our four isn’t renewing next year and there’s only two going tonight. The only reason that I am going is due our daughters boyfriend wanting to see a game otherwise I wouldn’t be bothering.
Shock, horror!
Woah! Hold the front pages!!
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How much different are the solidarity payments in l 2 compared to l1 ? I wouldn't of said it's that much of a difference.
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If you are asking, you don't have a clue like the rest of us
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The last communication we had from Mr Blunt was that we would “bounce back decisively”.
It would be good to hear what he thinks about that bold statement now!
That communication was before the season started and there’s been nothing since! Does anyone care anymore (at Board level)? The impression is, sadly, they don’t.
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I wouldn’t discount the fact that people might not renew STs next season either.
Two of the lads I go to games with aren’t going to the game tonight because they are simply fed up of watching what is being served up.
One of our four isn’t renewing next year and there’s only two going tonight. The only reason that I am going is due our daughters boyfriend wanting to see a game otherwise I wouldn’t be bothering.
[/quouteI wouldn’t discount the fact that people might not renew STs next season either.
Two of the lads I go to games with aren’t going to the game tonight because they are simply fed up of watching what is being served up.
One of our four isn’t renewing next year and there’s only two going tonight. The only reason that I am going is due our daughters boyfriend wanting to see a game otherwise I wouldn’t be bothering.
Quote from Colin C.
Shock, horror!
Woah! Hold the front pages!!
Post by hound:
Judging from that response of yours Colin C I think you must be David Blunt in disguise, completely indifferent to the fact that supporters are drifting away from the club, but hey ho, who cares?
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They look to be holding up pretty well to me.
https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/doncaster-rovers/attendances
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They look to be holding up pretty well to me.
https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/doncaster-rovers/attendances
Those figures include away fans of course and Carlisle had a decent following today.
They also include season ticket holders who don’t attend.
There is no way there were 7000 plus in the stadium today.
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They look to be holding up pretty well to me.
https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/doncaster-rovers/attendances
Those figures include away fans of course and Carlisle had a decent following today.
They also include season ticket holders who don’t attend.
There is no way there were 7000 plus in the stadium today.
I thought 7k was about right today to be honest.
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About right considering they brought 1100. 5900 home fans is v poor at today's prices and new year's day.
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They look to be holding up pretty well to me.
https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/doncaster-rovers/attendances
Those figures include away fans of course and Carlisle had a decent following today.
They also include season ticket holders who don’t attend.
There is no way there were 7000 plus in the stadium today.
Just as much as there is no way the attendances are going down.
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They look to be holding up pretty well to me.
https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/doncaster-rovers/attendances
Those figures include away fans of course and Carlisle had a decent following today.
They also include season ticket holders who don’t attend.
There is no way there were 7000 plus in the stadium today.
Just as much as there is no way the attendances are going down.
You clearly aren't a West Stand attender or watching on iPlayer then Glyn. The view from which the attendance in the east stand is drastically lower than previous seasons. I would estimate easily fewer than 50% of even last season.
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Thought about 7k - they brought a few but were disappointing in how much noise they made, not a patch on Walsall
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They look to be holding up pretty well to me.
https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/doncaster-rovers/attendances
Those figures include away fans of course and Carlisle had a decent following today.
They also include season ticket holders who don’t attend.
There is no way there were 7000 plus in the stadium today.
Just as much as there is no way the attendances are going down.
You clearly aren't a West Stand attender or watching on iPlayer then Glyn. The view from which the attendance in the east stand is drastically lower than previous seasons. I would estimate easily fewer than 50% of even last season.
Of course crowds are down on previous seasons, we've been relegated! But Hound said supporters are drifting away - present tense - which means within this season.
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Whether season ticket holders are counted as attending games even when they don't I'm not sure, but there are definitely fewer people in our area of the West Stand than earlier in the season.
Where about do you sit Glyn?
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I'm unfortunately not able to attend. But when I was able to I couldn't see the whole of the other attendees, just like anybody else. And I certainly wouldn't be confident enough to say how many were there. Hence using by the official figures, perhaps you know of any more accurate?
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From over here!! In IFollow Land the East stand looks horrendously empty and the south stand dwindling. I've mentioned on here (and understand why cameras can't move) but if the club were looking to show increased interest via crowds something needs to be done to fill the East stand.
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Of course, it's impossible to see how full the entire stand that you're sitting in is. You can see how full it is locally though. Assessing the volume of people locally along with the volume of empty seats in the East stand, I find it suspicious to claim the ground is almost half full.
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Filling up week on week where I sit in West.
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The stadium is roughly symmetrical. Think of everyone at the match cramming into the Western half as much as possible without vacant seats. So a full West, next to a three quarter full South, East standers join away fans in the Western side of the North. Voilà about 7k.
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They look to be holding up pretty well to me.
https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/doncaster-rovers/attendances
Those figures include away fans of course and Carlisle had a decent following today.
They also include season ticket holders who don’t attend.
There is no way there were 7000 plus in the stadium today.
Just as much as there is no way the attendances are going down.
You clearly aren't a West Stand attender or watching on iPlayer then Glyn. The view from which the attendance in the east stand is drastically lower than previous seasons. I would estimate easily fewer than 50% of even last season.
Of course crowds are down on previous seasons, we've been relegated! But Hound said supporters are drifting away - present tense - which means within this season.
Yes, I am saying people are drifting away.
I attend every home game and have noticed fewer people walking round the lake from where we park the car, I have noticed that we are getting away from the car park more quickly and with fewer queues. I have seen with my own eyes that there are more empty seats in the three sides of the ground that have home supporters in them.
There are fewer people in the South Stand concourse pre match and at half time.
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Filling up week on week where I sit in West.
Yes, there has been one or two with tears in their eyes where I sit too.
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And I've seen the official attendance figures with my own eyes.
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Upon which income is based and corporation tax paid. Any shenanigans with the official attendance figures would be a very dangerous game. Both HMRC and those who care about stopping money laundering would be hugely interested....
BobG
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And I've seen the official attendance figures with my own eyes.
Official attendances include ST holders who don’t attend.
Funny how some people who don’t attend have different opinions to those who do.
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I don't get why we have "official attendance" at all if that's the case.
Let's just call it tickets sold if it's for tax reasons, if it's official attendance then it should be how many have passed through the turnstiles otherwise what's the point?
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One of the weird things in life I think. Why do football fans care how many other football fans attend or not? You wouldn't go in to Tesco and wonder what the attendance is that day so why at football?
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Being a man of money, bfyp, I would have thought the first reason (increased attendance = increased income = improved potential to strengthen the playing budget), would be obvious to you. Another valid reason might be the increased numbers supporting makes for a better atmosphere and increases the energy of the players to compete, thus improving the chance of success.
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With us winning a couple of matches it seems that certain people have found another subject to have a go at the club for.
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In the R’son period it was a question of how small the crowd was. Many stopped going because we were hopeless, others in protest. On balance I carried on going as I figured it was my club not his. Lowest gate was about 1200 I guess. 7000 in Belle Vue was a big crowd for all of the time I saw us there.
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I thought one night game the gate was down to 700 and something? Not sure, but I do have a memory of a sub 1000 gate or two.
BobG
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I thought one night game the gate was down to 700 and something? Not sure, but I do have a memory of a sub 1000 gate or two.
BobG
I think about 980 was the lowest league gate in 97/98 I might be wrong but think we had one gate blow 1.000
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Seem to remember we played Barnet on a Tues afternoon to save money on the electricity.
I attended because I was on a 5PM start.
Glad to be corrected if I'm wrong.
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Upon which income is based and corporation tax paid. Any shenanigans with the official attendance figures would be a very dangerous game. Both HMRC and those who care about stopping money laundering would be hugely interested....
BobG
Bob, i think that if the club had been trying to lower any tax they might be liable for then they would be showing a lower attendance than the declared numbers attending so i don't think your point is relevant this time.
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Seem to remember we played Barnet on a Tues afternoon to save money on the electricity.
I attended because I was on a 5PM start.
Glad to be corrected if I'm wrong.
I took a half day and came across from Bradford for that one. I think that there were about 1,200 there.
Wasn't the Chester gate where fans boycotted or went in late 700 and something?
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I remember an evening game with Blackpool (Leyland Daf or something), which was around 700. If memory serves correct, the game was suspended for 10 minutes due to heavy rain and thunder. I am sure it was the time Trevor Sinclair was still with them.
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Seem to remember we played Barnet on a Tues afternoon to save money on the electricity.
I attended because I was on a 5PM start.
Glad to be corrected if I'm wrong.
I took a half day and came across from Bradford for that one. I think that there were about 1,200 there.
Wasn't the Chester gate where fans boycotted or went in late 700 and something?
It’s probably that game I’m thinking of. League games are the real test.
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Hi,
I think two home league games that season fell below 1,000 as follows:
* 2/12/97 v Chester (2-1 win) - 846
* 3/3/98 v Barnet (0-2 loss) - 739
A brave 580 watched us lose 0-1 at home to Rochdale in the league trophy as well.
Funny how easy it is to forget how bad it was and puts a lot of the current challenges in to perspective.
Matt
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We really were in a bad place in the late nineties.
It is disappointing how we’ve dropped off the pace in the last few years.
But I’m still happy where the club is and in our general direction.
We’re not perfect by any means, but hopefully the long term outlook is bright.
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Pretty sure I was at the Barnet game, but I definitely missed Chester - didn’t see many wins that season!
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Upon which income is based and corporation tax paid. Any shenanigans with the official attendance figures would be a very dangerous game. Both HMRC and those who care about stopping money laundering would be hugely interested....
BobG
Bob, i think that if the club had been trying to lower any tax they might be liable for then they would be showing a lower attendance than the declared numbers attending so i don't think your point is relevant this time.
I think you've missed the difference between two separate points Hound. Not to worry.
BobG
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Upon which income is based and corporation tax paid. Any shenanigans with the official attendance figures would be a very dangerous game. Both HMRC and those who care about stopping money laundering would be hugely interested....
BobG
Bob, i think that if the club had been trying to lower any tax they might be liable for then they would be showing a lower attendance than the declared numbers attending so i don't think your point is relevant this time.
I think you've missed the difference between two separate points Hound. Not to worry.
BobG
Is it not the case that Bramall subsidises the club? And do we actually get to see the complete accounts? I get the impression that they don’t make any profit and that there will be losses brought forward to offset any future profits (if any are likely). So no tax would be payable would it?
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Tax losses are just as important as taxable profit!!
BobG
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Upon which income is based and corporation tax paid. Any shenanigans with the official attendance figures would be a very dangerous game. Both HMRC and those who care about stopping money laundering would be hugely interested....
BobG
Bob, i think that if the club had been trying to lower any tax they might be liable for then they would be showing a lower attendance than the declared numbers attending so i don't think your point is relevant this time.
I think you've missed the difference between two separate points Hound. Not to worry.
BobG
You wrote about shinanegans with attendance figures during a conversation about whether there were as many supporters in the ground as the official figures indicated.
I suggested that any “fiddling” would be the other way round in the event of the club wanting to change their tax liability.
What are the the differences between two separate points.
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The Barnet game was a 2pm kick off, I had to skip school to attend.
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I said it would be a hugely dangerous thhing to fiddle attendance figures. I then remsrked that I thought there were only 700 or so attending a keague match in that final Firestarter season. The two points are entirely unrelated.
BobG
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Upon which income is based and corporation tax paid. Any shenanigans with the official attendance figures would be a very dangerous game. Both HMRC and those who care about stopping money laundering would be hugely interested....
BobG
Bob, i think that if the club had been trying to lower any tax they might be liable for then they would be showing a lower attendance than the declared numbers attending so i don't think your point is relevant this time.
I think you've missed the difference between two separate points Hound. Not to worry.
BobG
Is it not the case that Bramall subsidises the club? And do we actually get to see the complete accounts? I get the impression that they don’t make any profit and that there will be losses brought forward to offset any future profits (if any are likely). So no tax would be payable would it?
There'd be income tax on the players wages to pay for starters I'd guess.
I would imagine that's where a lot of clubs fall foul.
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The Barnet game was a 2pm kick off, I had to skip school to attend.
I skipped work to attend, Harry Gresham was there with a Look North film crew
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Upon which income is based and corporation tax paid. Any shenanigans with the official attendance figures would be a very dangerous game. Both HMRC and those who care about stopping money laundering would be hugely interested....
BobG
Bob, i think that if the club had been trying to lower any tax they might be liable for then they would be showing a lower attendance than the declared numbers attending so i don't think your point is relevant this time.
I think you've missed the difference between two separate points Hound. Not to worry.
BobG
Is it not the case that Bramall subsidises the club? And do we actually get to see the complete accounts? I get the impression that they don’t make any profit and that there will be losses brought forward to offset any future profits (if any are likely). So no tax would be payable would it?
We’re not a loss making club anymore, therefore no subsidy is required.
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Is L2 a better fit for the club with lower wages and still reasonable crowds still in attendance ?
I’m not sure how many times I have to answer this very question on this forum, and I’m sure I’ve done this on at least 8/9 occasions, but the answer is no.
The reduction in player wages and lower ticket prices and attendance does not in anyway compensate for the loss in solidarity payments and TV revenue.
We’re better off in lg1.
So WHY the procrastination over finding a fully seasoned replacement for Darren Moore , as he left is in L1 in a playoff place with games in hand , so the powers in charge abandoned the their tried and proven “Right man for the job approach “ ??. What are they saying now about this decision to appoint amateurs instead of professionals?
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A huge part of our recent downturn can be traced back to DM’s reliance on loans and leaving with no squad in place. Granted it could be argued that maybe he shouldn’t have been allowed to do this but then there would have been cries of interference from above
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SM has already rightly stated on here where the club is at the mo.
In my capacity as Shadow Board chair I can clarify.
There is NO transfer embargo
No one other than the club has paid the players wages.
The club isn’t going into administration.
The club ( Club Doncaster, which Donny Rovers is part of) has no financial difficulties WHATSOEVER.
I don’t know how much simpler I can put this.
Thanks.
DD
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Equally Lincoln, does it have much aims other than ticking over as a sustainable lower league club with the odd flirtation with the play offs?
Having no financial issues is brilliant don't get me wrong but where's the push to be a bit more successful?
Explaining my point it seems clear to me the owner has little desire to spend any more (not a criticism) and in modern football you probably need that. So is there any intention for them to actively find someone who will spend significant sums or even modest sums?
Whilst we aren't in any difficulty I don't see much signs of the above or investment in the infrastructure of the club.
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A huge part of our recent downturn can be traced back to DM’s reliance on loans and leaving with no squad in place. Granted it could be argued that maybe he shouldn’t have been allowed to do this but then there would have been cries of interference from above
the problem is he was reliant on loans to secure better players, while you can get decent players on a free transfer when you very rarely pay any transfer fee it means we’re then restricted to the Loan market
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BFYP.
Rather than me rattle on, would you please wait 24/48 hours to digest news from the club on this. NONE of this is bad I can assure you. Then I’ll be happy to discuss. Thank you.
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Upon which income is based and corporation tax paid. Any shenanigans with the official attendance figures would be a very dangerous game. Both HMRC and those who care about stopping money laundering would be hugely interested....
BobG
Bob, i think that if the club had been trying to lower any tax they might be liable for then they would be showing a lower attendance than the declared numbers attending so i don't think your point is relevant this time.
I think you've missed the difference between two separate points Hound. Not to worry.
BobG
Is it not the case that Bramall subsidises the club? And do we actually get to see the complete accounts? I get the impression that they don’t make any profit and that there will be losses brought forward to offset any future profits (if any are likely). So no tax would be payable would it?
We’re not a loss making club anymore, therefore no subsidy is required.
I based my comment on the DFP article https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/doncaster-rovers-accounts-latest-filings-and-why-rovers-ps34m-losses-are-nothing-to-be-concerned-about-3292303.
Are we to assume that profits from Club Doncaster subsidises Doncaster Rovers Ltd? Would it be wrong to assume then that Mr Bramall is still providing loans to any of the associated companies?
If we were able to refer to the Business Plan would we be able to discover exactly what money is available for the forthcoming transfer window? And can the amount be revealed?
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Why would supporters want to know that information, and what use would it be anyway, other than brass people off if we still didn't do well after pushing the boat out.
It's purely about getting value for money, a football brain, and being able to build and sustain a good football team.
Giving the wrong people money to spend does not guarantee success as Chelsea, Tottenham and Liverpool are finding out at the moment, while spending less well such as Brighton brings success, aided by managers who recognise ability.
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A huge part of our recent downturn can be traced back to DM’s reliance on loans and leaving with no squad in place. Granted it could be argued that maybe he shouldn’t have been allowed to do this but then there would have been cries of interference from above
the problem is he was reliant on loans to secure better players, while you can get decent players on a free transfer when you very rarely pay any transfer fee it means we’re then restricted to the Loan market
Thete is no such thing as a "free transfer". The signing on fee can approach the realms of a club to club transfer
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A huge part of our recent downturn can be traced back to DM’s reliance on loans and leaving with no squad in place. Granted it could be argued that maybe he shouldn’t have been allowed to do this but then there would have been cries of interference from above
the problem is he was reliant on loans to secure better players, while you can get decent players on a free transfer when you very rarely pay any transfer fee it means we’re then restricted to the Loan market
Thete is no such thing as a "free transfer". The signing on fee can approach the realms of a club to club transfer
no I understand that I meant not paying a transfer fee
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I said it would be a hugely dangerous thhing to fiddle attendance figures. I then remsrked that I thought there were only 700 or so attending a keague match in that final Firestarter season. The two points are entirely unrelated.
BobG
It's Hound that's inferring that the official attendance isn't accurate. It'd be very odd for any football club to artificially inflate (and pay tax on) attendances with phantom attendees just to try and fool their fans into thinking the crowds aren't going down.
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A huge part of our recent downturn can be traced back to DM’s reliance on loans and leaving with no squad in place. Granted it could be argued that maybe he shouldn’t have been allowed to do this but then there would have been cries of interference from above
the problem is he was reliant on loans to secure better players, while you can get decent players on a free transfer when you very rarely pay any transfer fee it means we’re then restricted to the Loan market
Thete is no such thing as a "free transfer". The signing on fee can approach the realms of a club to club transfer
no I understand that I meant not paying a transfer fee
It doesn't matter to whom or where the money goes to, it's still leaving the club.
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BFYP.
Rather than me rattle on, would you please wait 24/48 hours to digest news from the club on this. NONE of this is bad I can assure you. Then I’ll be happy to discuss. Thank you.
Yes of course, does that suggest some form of news or announcement to come from the football club?
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BFYP
Yes. Again nothing to get alarmed about, I can assure you.
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I said it would be a hugely dangerous thhing to fiddle attendance figures. I then remsrked that I thought there were only 700 or so attending a keague match in that final Firestarter season. The two points are entirely unrelated.
BobG
Yes I know what you posted but, your post number 65 about tax shenanigans came straight after Glyn said he has seen official attendance numbers, which clearly indicates that your comment was about that.
Your post about the 700 fans at a game was made about four hours later.
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I said it would be a hugely dangerous thhing to fiddle attendance figures. I then remsrked that I thought there were only 700 or so attending a keague match in that final Firestarter season. The two points are entirely unrelated.
BobG
It's Hound that's inferring that the official attendance isn't accurate. It'd be very odd for any football club to artificially inflate (and pay tax on) attendances with phantom attendees just to try and fool their fans into thinking the crowds aren't going down.
Glyn, now you are missing the point.
I am not saying that the club are fiddling anything.
They are not artificially inflating the official attendance figures, I haven’t said anything of the sort.
I am simply saying that I don’t think there are as many people in the ground as the official attendance states.
Due to some ST holders not attending.
Don’t misrepresent what I am saying.
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Those who have paid are counted as attending. If it were not so it would cause serious accounting difficulties about the timing of recognising revenue. You can't recognise income for a service that has not been provided. Whether or not a season ticket holder physically attends is entirely irrelevant. He has to be counted as attending whether he does or does not to allow the appropriate portion of his season ticket fee to be recognised in the accounts. So fantasies about over stating attendances are entirely born of ignorance.
BobG
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Those who have paid are counted as attending. If it were not so it would cause serious accounting difficulties about the timing of recognising revenue. You can't recognise income for a service that has not been provided. Whether or not a season ticket holder physically attends is entirely irrelevant. He has to be counted as attending whether he does or does not to allow the appropriate portion of his season ticket fee to be recognised in the accounts. So fantasies about over stating attendances are entirely born of ignorance.
BobG
Even now you miss the point I am making.
It isn’t irrelevant to say that there aren’t as many people in the ground as the official figures say.
I’m surprised that a man of superior intellect can’t understand that that is all I am saying.
Never mind.
I am not suggesting for one minute that the club are doing anything wrong.
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Defending the indefensible is unbecoming Hound.Read what I wrote.
Bob
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I did but evidently you didn’t read what I wrote.
Goodnight.
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Those who have paid are counted as attending. If it were not so it would cause serious accounting difficulties about the timing of recognising revenue. You can't recognise income for a service that has not been provided. Whether or not a season ticket holder physically attends is entirely irrelevant. He has to be counted as attending whether he does or does not to allow the appropriate portion of his season ticket fee to be recognised in the accounts. So fantasies about over stating attendances are entirely born of ignorance.
BobG
Hallelujah someone who recognises how accountancy works. It's not a choice of the club it's internationally recognised accountancy standards.
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Those who have paid are counted as attending. If it were not so it would cause serious accounting difficulties about the timing of recognising revenue. You can't recognise income for a service that has not been provided. Whether or not a season ticket holder physically attends is entirely irrelevant. He has to be counted as attending whether he does or does not to allow the appropriate portion of his season ticket fee to be recognised in the accounts. So fantasies about over stating attendances are entirely born of ignorance.
BobG
Hallelujah someone who recognises how accountancy works. It's not a choice of the club it's internationally recognised accountancy standards.
Yep, I totally agree.
You don’t have to be a genius to understand that.
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Why would supporters want to know that information, and what use would it be anyway, other than brass people off if we still didn't do well after pushing the boat out.
It's purely about getting value for money, a football brain, and being able to build and sustain a good football team.
Giving the wrong people money to spend does not guarantee success as Chelsea, Tottenham and Liverpool are finding out at the moment, while spending less well such as Brighton brings success, aided by managers who recognise ability.
I get the impression that a lot of people are “brassed off” with quite a few of the recent transfer dealings. Failing to make sensible use of funds seems a legitimate criticism.
As you say, it about getting value for money, but we are in no position to judge if we do not know what money is being made available or spent.
Also Baldwin devoted an interview with the DFP about the Business Plan and later washed his hands of it when it clearly failed with the excuse that the footballing side of the club was not his responsibility. The Plan was never mentioned again, so presumably no one took ownership. No Business Plan has been mentioned since, so perhaps there is no plan anymore.
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Upon which income is based and corporation tax paid. Any shenanigans with the official attendance figures would be a very dangerous game. Both HMRC and those who care about stopping money laundering would be hugely interested....
BobG
Bob, i think that if the club had been trying to lower any tax they might be liable for then they would be showing a lower attendance than the declared numbers attending so i don't think your point is relevant this time.
I think you've missed the difference between two separate points Hound. Not to worry.
BobG
Is it not the case that Bramall subsidises the club? And do we actually get to see the complete accounts? I get the impression that they don’t make any profit and that there will be losses brought forward to offset any future profits (if any are likely). So no tax would be payable would it?
We’re not a loss making club anymore, therefore no subsidy is required.
I based my comment on the DFP article https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/sport/football/doncaster-rovers-accounts-latest-filings-and-why-rovers-ps34m-losses-are-nothing-to-be-concerned-about-3292303.
Are we to assume that profits from Club Doncaster subsidises Doncaster Rovers Ltd? Would it be wrong to assume then that Mr Bramall is still providing loans to any of the associated companies?
If we were able to refer to the Business Plan would we be able to discover exactly what money is available for the forthcoming transfer window? And can the amount be revealed?
Crikey, that’s a lot of questions which may need more clarification than I can offer.
I would start by saying that article is out of date, sort of! It was probably accurate at the time but things have changed recently in as much as the commercial aspects of Club Doncaster enable the club to operate at a break even position.
Two points, firstly TB has never operated a system where he loans money to the club. He might do as a temporary accounting step but ultimately they are converted to share issues.
And the operation of Club Doncaster subsidises the operation of DRFC. If CD didn’t exist we would be a club in debt, no question.
And finally, no. You can’t estimate what’s available in the window.
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Why would supporters want to know that information, and what use would it be anyway, other than brass people off if we still didn't do well after pushing the boat out.
It's purely about getting value for money, a football brain, and being able to build and sustain a good football team.
Giving the wrong people money to spend does not guarantee success as Chelsea, Tottenham and Liverpool are finding out at the moment, while spending less well such as Brighton brings success, aided by managers who recognise ability.
I get the impression that a lot of people are “brassed off” with quite a few of the recent transfer dealings. Failing to make sensible use of funds seems a legitimate criticism.
As you say, it about getting value for money, but we are in no position to judge if we do not know what money is being made available or spent.
Also Baldwin devoted an interview with the DFP about the Business Plan and later washed his hands of it when it clearly failed with the excuse that the footballing side of the club was not his responsibility. The Plan was never mentioned again, so presumably no one took ownership. No Business Plan has been mentioned since, so perhaps there is no plan anymore.
I have no idea what any of that means.
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Why would supporters want to know that information, and what use would it be anyway, other than brass people off if we still didn't do well after pushing the boat out.
It's purely about getting value for money, a football brain, and being able to build and sustain a good football team.
Giving the wrong people money to spend does not guarantee success as Chelsea, Tottenham and Liverpool are finding out at the moment, while spending less well such as Brighton brings success, aided by managers who recognise ability.
I get the impression that a lot of people are “brassed off” with quite a few of the recent transfer dealings. Failing to make sensible use of funds seems a legitimate criticism.
As you say, it about getting value for money, but we are in no position to judge if we do not know what money is being made available or spent.
Also Baldwin devoted an interview with the DFP about the Business Plan and later washed his hands of it when it clearly failed with the excuse that the footballing side of the club was not his responsibility. The Plan was never mentioned again, so presumably no one took ownership. No Business Plan has been mentioned since, so perhaps there is no plan anymore.
Not sure if you're referring to the '5 Year plan' which some folk keep referring to as a means to bash the club with.
A few years ago GB did talk about a 5 year plan but that gets thrown out of the window to a large degree when there's a rapid change in manager, change in other key personnel, covid etc etc, then a rethink of how we operate from the football side of the operation. So much instability that a 5 year plan was dead in the water so I'm surprised people tried to hold the club to it.
Since the appointment of JC, there may be a new plan or a set of objectives however it may be something that's fluid and will evolve.
As far as we're concerned, all we need to know is the stated aim of getting promoted.
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Equally Lincoln, does it have much aims other than ticking over as a sustainable lower league club with the odd flirtation with the play offs?
Having no financial issues is brilliant don't get me wrong but where's the push to be a bit more successful?
Explaining my point it seems clear to me the owner has little desire to spend any more (not a criticism) and in modern football you probably need that. So is there any intention for them to actively find someone who will spend significant sums or even modest sums?
Whilst we aren't in any difficulty I don't see much signs of the above or investment in the infrastructure of the club.
OK bfyp, lets see if I can address some of this.
Where's the push to be more successful? Surely making sure that the manager has a budget in the 4/5/6 of the division is proof enough is it not? If not where should it be? If we should be spending another £1m in addition to what we already do who, and how, should that be financed?
Where is the desire to be more successful? I'm not sure what you mean. On the pitch? Off the pitch? They can only control one of those areas of operation. They make funds available, what more do you want them to do? Get somebody else in to finance the debt? How does that work? Do they buy into the club? Do they get a free pass just to throw a few million at the club?
You see no evidence of them actively looking for somebody to invest considerable sums into the club? No, probably not, but in fairness why would they make it so obvious? A for sale sign on the side of the West Stand? You know it doesn't work like that.
And finally, you see no signs of investment in the infrastructure of the club. The appointment of a HoF is an investment isn't it? Have you been to Cantley Park and seen the changes that JC has insisted on and have been implemented? Probably not, but it has all been documented and reported on on several occasions.
To add to that, major changes have been carried out behind the scenes at the Eco Power recently, refurbishment of the gym, soccer centre and in the utility operational area of the stadium cost, as you no doubt are aware, cost many £1,00's. This has been a continual policy of CD for some time now.
I think you need to readdress some of the points you raise.
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To be fair to BFYP, I dont think there's a clear understanding how the financing of the club works including TBs input and that of GB and DB as major shareholders.
Some may think every season, TB will make a conscious decision how much to subsidise the club and that determines the size of the playing budget. Some might think every time we want to sign a player, DB being the guardian of the cheque book, says yay or nay depending what mood he's in.
It's not beyond the realm of wishful thinking that folk hope that TB will say "Oh f*ck it, this year we're going for it, here's an extra £mil"
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We are by no means a sacking club, but we have lacked continuity of ideas-we need a long term manager, hopefully Danny is the man for that. We have our own side, it isn’t a borrowed eleven, that is progress. The way the club does things on the football side, that seems to have improved. I’m not worried about the financial side I have trust in the owner that things will be done properly.
For me i don’t know if work is being done on this but our scouting of potential players needs to improve. We need players to develop that we can sell onto a bigger club then reinvest in the side and scouting for more.
The current side needs another George Miller to help the current one, our bench isn’t strong enough. So as well as that striker that is wanted, we also need another striker to add to that and we need a powerful athletic midfielder with a bit of technique, to control our midfield.
We could do with a solid and reliable centre half. A player that organises things back there. We’ve tried many combinations of our defenders and we haven’t had a consistent run of success with any of them. For me there are players that need to leave in January, if we can get them a move.
I would like to see a few young players around the squad, don’t loan them all out. The lad Goodman has good potential after he’s had a few games at Stamford, let’s see him coming off the bench in the first team.
How are getting players injured so often, and why aren’t the physio department getting fit quickly enough?.
Is not having a reserve side not helping this, is it worth the extra cost to maintain fitness levels of fringe players?.
In the window, I see us bringing four in with young players going out on loan, and a couple of our senior players leaving on permanent deals. A massive overhaul in January won’t happen. I do think we have been going backwards as a club on the football side for three to four seasons at least. It needs to be stopped, to do this we need continuity, good decisions and a bit of luck.
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SCWK the injuries we have had this season are predominantly different to previous years - other than Tommy I cant really think of muscle injuries. We’ve been unlucky that 2 centre halves are out at the same time with head/facial injuries, Younger was a complete fluke others have been impact injuries which can’t be legislated for. The bench would have been stronger if our loan striker and Tomlin were still about (2 places that need replacements ASAP)
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Why would supporters want to know that information, and what use would it be anyway, other than brass people off if we still didn't do well after pushing the boat out.
It's purely about getting value for money, a football brain, and being able to build and sustain a good football team.
Giving the wrong people money to spend does not guarantee success as Chelsea, Tottenham and Liverpool are finding out at the moment, while spending less well such as Brighton brings success, aided by managers who recognise ability.
I get the impression that a lot of people are “brassed off” with quite a few of the recent transfer dealings. Failing to make sensible use of funds seems a legitimate criticism.
As you say, it about getting value for money, but we are in no position to judge if we do not know what money is being made available or spent.
Also Baldwin devoted an interview with the DFP about the Business Plan and later washed his hands of it when it clearly failed with the excuse that the footballing side of the club was not his responsibility. The Plan was never mentioned again, so presumably no one took ownership. No Business Plan has been mentioned since, so perhaps there is no plan anymore.
I have no idea what any of that means.
Really?
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When will we begin here the plans for next season ? After all the plan is to be in another League !
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Thanks SM, good points in there, some I agree with some not so much, which I'll explain.
I don't doubt we have a decent wage bill for this league. I'd question if we had one last year though and we shouldn't lower our expectations to competing in league 2 only. I also feel we fail to invest as much as we should in saleable assets. Just look at Ben White man as an example of that. We've not gone after someone with real potential over the past few years and some of our rivals have. Do we need to spend more to compete where we'd like as fans? Yes we absolutely do, we need a bigger wage bill and a bigger transfer budget. Other clubs have attacked the transfer window already, the messages Drfc send out right now feel negative on that.
Do I want to see further investment/funding? Yes I absolutely do. To agree with your point I don't know where that is or if it's possible, but I'd say other clubs have found it so why can't we? To get where we as fans want we need that. None of us want to plod in league 2 in front of 4-5000 fans. So yes, to get there we probably do need alternate owners as I can't see signs that the current owner wants to spend the cash. You make a very valid point that this may be happening and we don't know about it.
That is not a criticism but it's where I feel football is right now. Why shouldn't we want to be similar to the clubs of our size who've made it to the top? We shouldn't just settle for what we've had the last few years being unable to retain players/coaches or attract the calibre we'd like.
As for infrastructure, I take your points but I also see negatives. The stadium feels a little tiring and it's seriously filthy. We've a scoreboard that hasn't worked for months l, lights that flicker or don't work and some things feel a little tired. Granted there may have been some improvements but in the things we can see the image portrayed is a little negative.
Yes I'm being a football fan with these points, yes they may well be unrealistic, but as fans we should want better than we have and I can't get away from the overriding factor that it's a bit stale right now and has been for some time (the crowd levels seem to agree with that).
I absolutely don't want this to seem negative to the success they have had in breaking even, being sustainable etc. But I don't see how that model will get the on field success I want as a fan, it just doesn't feel likely and I'd like to think the owner now has a legacy of a strong platform to build on, now find someone who's willing to spend. I am fully aware that may not exist but I hope it does.
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bfyp,
Some excellent points in your post, ones that will need some detail to be able to answer properly. So, bear with me, I'm a bit stuck for time at the moment, but I will respond.
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The discussion has taken an adult turn here, and that’s good to see. Respect to BFYP for making those points in an honest, constructive manner and with substantiation where possible. And respect to SM for the response. If things could proceed in this way more often, this forum would be a lot more enjoyable.
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Thanks SM, good points in there, some I agree with some not so much, which I'll explain.
I don't doubt we have a decent wage bill for this league. I'd question if we had one last year though and we shouldn't lower our expectations to competing in league 2 only. I also feel we fail to invest as much as we should in saleable assets. Just look at Ben White man as an example of that. We've not gone after someone with real potential over the past few years and some of our rivals have. Do we need to spend more to compete where we'd like as fans? Yes we absolutely do, we need a bigger wage bill and a bigger transfer budget. Other clubs have attacked the transfer window already, the messages Drfc send out right now feel negative on that.
Do I want to see further investment/funding? Yes I absolutely do. To agree with your point I don't know where that is or if it's possible, but I'd say other clubs have found it so why can't we? To get where we as fans want we need that. None of us want to plod in league 2 in front of 4-5000 fans. So yes, to get there we probably do need alternate owners as I can't see signs that the current owner wants to spend the cash. You make a very valid point that this may be happening and we don't know about it.
That is not a criticism but it's where I feel football is right now. Why shouldn't we want to be similar to the clubs of our size who've made it to the top? We shouldn't just settle for what we've had the last few years being unable to retain players/coaches or attract the calibre we'd like.
As for infrastructure, I take your points but I also see negatives. The stadium feels a little tiring and it's seriously filthy. We've a scoreboard that hasn't worked for months l, lights that flicker or don't work and some things feel a little tired. Granted there may have been some improvements but in the things we can see the image portrayed is a little negative.
Yes I'm being a football fan with these points, yes they may well be unrealistic, but as fans we should want better than we have and I can't get away from the overriding factor that it's a bit stale right now and has been for some time (the crowd levels seem to agree with that).
I absolutely don't want this to seem negative to the success they have had in breaking even, being sustainable etc. But I don't see how that model will get the on field success I want as a fan, it just doesn't feel likely and I'd like to think the owner now has a legacy of a strong platform to build on, now find someone who's willing to spend. I am fully aware that may not exist but I hope it does.
Excellent points raised and well put across
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Molyneux, Miller and Maxwell are of the right age and career stages to potentially be saleable assets. Early days to say we haven’t invested in any saleable assets since Copps became HoF which is all we can judge on.
If we ignore Tomlin (doesn’t really count for me), Biggins is the oldest signing at 26.
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The discussion has taken an adult turn here, and that’s good to see. Respect to BFYP for making those points in an honest, constructive manner and with substantiation where possible. And respect to SM for the response. If things could proceed in this way more often, this forum would be a lot more enjoyable.
Well said that man
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Thanks SM, good points in there, some I agree with some not so much, which I'll explain.
I don't doubt we have a decent wage bill for this league. I'd question if we had one last year though and we shouldn't lower our expectations to competing in league 2 only. I also feel we fail to invest as much as we should in saleable assets. Just look at Ben White man as an example of that. We've not gone after someone with real potential over the past few years and some of our rivals have. Do we need to spend more to compete where we'd like as fans? Yes we absolutely do, we need a bigger wage bill and a bigger transfer budget. Other clubs have attacked the transfer window already, the messages Drfc send out right now feel negative on that.
Do I want to see further investment/funding? Yes I absolutely do. To agree with your point I don't know where that is or if it's possible, but I'd say other clubs have found it so why can't we? To get where we as fans want we need that. None of us want to plod in league 2 in front of 4-5000 fans. So yes, to get there we probably do need alternate owners as I can't see signs that the current owner wants to spend the cash. You make a very valid point that this may be happening and we don't know about it.
That is not a criticism but it's where I feel football is right now. Why shouldn't we want to be similar to the clubs of our size who've made it to the top? We shouldn't just settle for what we've had the last few years being unable to retain players/coaches or attract the calibre we'd like.
As for infrastructure, I take your points but I also see negatives. The stadium feels a little tiring and it's seriously filthy. We've a scoreboard that hasn't worked for months l, lights that flicker or don't work and some things feel a little tired. Granted there may have been some improvements but in the things we can see the image portrayed is a little negative.
Yes I'm being a football fan with these points, yes they may well be unrealistic, but as fans we should want better than we have and I can't get away from the overriding factor that it's a bit stale right now and has been for some time (the crowd levels seem to agree with that).
I absolutely don't want this to seem negative to the success they have had in breaking even, being sustainable etc. But I don't see how that model will get the on field success I want as a fan, it just doesn't feel likely and I'd like to think the owner now has a legacy of a strong platform to build on, now find someone who's willing to spend. I am fully aware that may not exist but I hope it does.
Hi bfyp,
I'm going to try to answer your questions as simply as I can, bearing in mind that there will be areas that I can elaborate on that are supporter trust led, and that others will be observation of the club when working closely with the management team. There will also be areas that I can comment on as a supporter of DRFC and not representative of any particular role that I hold, either VSC or previously as FSA. I hope that makes sense!
1) Wage bill. Yes we have a decent wage bill for this league, certainly enough to see us promoted at the first time of asking (like it or not the size of the playing budget should be indicative of where you finish in the league). Last year we also had a decent wage bill, more than enough to have kept us in that division. We, the VSC, have not yet seen the accounts that cover last season so we can't confirm whether our understanding was correct or not, but Richard Poole, the Finance Director, has always been honest and accurate with us and therefore I see no reason to disbelieve anything that he told us. Richard is a very welcoming individual and is always ready to chat over a coffee if we feel the need to sit down and go through anything.
2) Lowering expectations. I can't agree that is happening or is planned to happen. I've said it numerous times but the club is financially better off when in LG1 rather than LG2, both in terms of ticket revenue but more crucially from commercial revenue and solidarity and TV revenue. Last season everybody involved with the club thought we would survive, they invested in the transfer windows and felt that we would turn it around. Of course that didn't happen but the plan was to stay in LG1.
3) Do we invest enough in saleable assets? To be honest I can't answer that one, its not an area where I have more experience than anyone else. What I can say though is that its a key area for the club, we just haven't got in right on enough occasions. In recent years our playing squad has been decimated, but I would put that down to 2 things, one being Covid which received a comprehensive response by the club in order for the club to feel prepared for whatever it threw at it, and secondly having Darren Moore as manager. (This is very much a personal viewpoint substantiated by a couple of things I interpreted) DM wasn't interested in the younger players at the club, he never watched them play or felt it was his responsibility to bring through or nurture anyone. Just look at the squad he inherited and see what we had when he left. I, for one, was chuffed to bits when he left.
4) Clubs attacking the transfer window? Does that always work though? We've had occasions when we've jumped at the first opportunity and that hasn't worked, and we've also waited until better players become available later in the window and that hasn't worked either. I would suggest (as a DRFC fan) that we just concentrate on bringing in the best we can.
5) Further investment/funding. This is in no way an easy one to answer. What we have seen for a number of years is TB and Co providing funding to enable GB to develop a business model that ensure we generate enough income to keep us ahead of the pack. GB has managed that, and very successfully. As an EFL club we generate more revenue as a percentage of total revenue from commercial operations than just about any other club, and that's an official position endorsed by the EFL. That is a remarkable achievement and yet people are so quick to condemn GB. I find that bizarre! As for additional investment it can only come about by one or two routes. Either we keep striving commercially, or TB and Co decide to provide even more funding for the club in addition to the £20m+ or so that he's already provided. I don't think looking for an additional investor/owner is the correct path, far too complicated. However the very fact that this club now operate debt free and can operate at a profit should make it attractive for somebody to make an offer. TB has always said that if somebody comes along who can do a better job then he would step aside. I'm sure that will happen at some point. (As a fan of DRFC I would like TB and Co just to say here's another £2m a year on top of what you're making and just blow everybody away! I can't see that happening however) One further avenue is that the Fan Led Review has built into it a new relationship between the EPL and EFL which would change our financial set up!
6) Be careful what you wish for. Yes, I know everybody hates that phrase but it's still very true. EFL clubs do not operate in a sustainable fashion, virtually every one of them operates at a loss, some much more than others. Crawley is a mess, Southend too, WBA could be (more than likely) the next major failure. Millwall are now sat on a debt pile of £120m. This is why my former colleagues and I spent a long time creating the document that proved the need for the FLR. You say its not where football is at the moment, no it's not, but I for one don't want the club going in that direction.
7) Why shouldn't we be similar to other clubs? I don't think there's a desire to be successful at any cost, most definitely not. But putting your fan hat to one side and putting your business hat back on what would you do? Attracting players and coaches, as you mention, hasn't been good to us in the last couple of seasons, definitely agree with you on that one. But we have been let down by coaches who viewed their financial success as more important than our club, both DM and Grant Mc left because they were tempted away by bigger wages. But when you see how much they get paid in the Championship you can't blame them. A lack of decent candidates recently hasn't helped, and its no scecret that I wasn't a fan of RW, I still believe he should never have joined us.
8) Infrastructure. Considerable money has been spent at Cantley Park, certainly since JC took on his new role. Yes the Eco Power is looking a bit tired and it is something I've raised with Gavin. The catering outlets should be maintained by the catering provider, but that of course isn't happening due to them running down their contract. What I do know is there are plans to make improvements in certain areas, hopefully that will come about shortly. As the VSC we helped the club gain access to some funding and also provided a considerable sum ourselves to provide better facilities for all supporters, hopefully that is evidenced soon.
Hopefully that answers some of your points. And I don't doubt that it will raise more questions!
Answering some of this might be a bit easier over a coffee than having it typed out on here, but happy to do either.
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Very informative S_M. From a fans perspective always difficult to remove our emotional attachment and separate pure business acumen.
I think the point you make about TB allowing GB & Co to maximise income streams and the business model is a key one.
Projecting income from all activities to ultimately provide a competitive budget and cover our costs is no easy task and actual income at the end of any trading year can easily fall short, and that's where TB provides that insurance to plug the gaps. Gaps over time that resulted in losses over £30m of which TB is the major contributor since the passing of DW.
Unfortunately, there are fans who see TB as a wealthy man who doesn't appear to be committing funds directly into a 'promotion push' and there lies a perception that he's not as emotionally or financially committed to the clubs success in the same way we are when we invest our ticket money.
In reality, the equation is no different to when all three amigos, JR, DW and TB were aligned by committing to covering those losses, until the funding gap became unsustainable, when the sums didn't add up.
It's a shame these days in football, the amount of risks taken and debt accrued by clubs seem to be a badge of honour whilst being debt free or 'sustainable' is a dirty word.
That all said, it's all about points gained on the pitch and no matter how we analyse it, collectively we haven't been good enough in the last few seasons.
Let's all hope our new strategy with Copps as HoF delivers success sooner rather than later and shows we are all getting better value for money.
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I see we have a prominent twitter poster, and previous VSC poster saying self sufficiency = standing still
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I see we have a prominent twitter poster, and previous VSC poster saying self sufficiency = standing still
Does that translate to ambition = debt = success?
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I see we have a prominent twitter poster, and previous VSC poster saying self sufficiency = standing still
Does that translate to ambition = debt = success?
Success doesn't necessarily follow though does it Baz?
People can't see the logic here, they assume that one follows the other, it doesn't. Nor does being self-sustainable mean a lack of ambition.
Scunthorpe were ambitious, they also ran up a lot of debt, and look where they are!
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Firstly thanks to SM for a very comprehensive reply, I think it's great to have some differing viewpoints and really detailed discussion.
I think in conclusion it has helped me think about it a little more and that's great. The thing that sticks out for me is the business head Vs supporter head and that's exactly why I'd never ever work in football, the emotions of it get in the way.
What I will say is that to me it's clear we've got our house in order really well to have a strong fixed base, something Gavin's article alludes to. As fans we should absolutely not detract from that at all. We need it, no doubt there.
I actually think most of us are on the same wavelength. That solid foundation is great but I do think to really kick on we do need that extra funding. Interesting to me that there is a point about a complete buy out as opposed to new co owner and I can see fully why thats a better option. Make no mistake selling a self funding club is far easier than a failing one. I do think it inevitably needs to happen at some point, but I do agree with the point that it shouldn't just be to anyone.
What I find fascinating is whether this will happen. As is said it's all built up well off the pitch so will we see someone come in who will commit to spending to get where footballing wise we want to be.
I think the clubs at a bit of a cross roads and where we go next is fascinating, but as has been said at the very least we have a safety net.
I think Baz touches on a good point on the owner and I think it's a fair point that he's a wealthy man who doesn't want to spend big like JR did. I think that's a fair point that some make, but I do also sympathise because we have got a club that won't simply disappear it has a future. For me it's just what that future will be. Does someone want to come in and commit a few quid each year or do we live only within what we generate. To be successful on the pitch I do feel it needs to be more than that.
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I see we have a prominent twitter poster, and previous VSC poster saying self sufficiency = standing still
Does that translate to ambition = debt = success?
Success doesn't necessarily follow though does it Baz?
People can't see the logic here, they assume that one follows the other, it doesn't. Nor does being self-sustainable mean a lack of ambition.
Scunthorpe were ambitious, they also ran up a lot of debt, and look where they are!
I also agree with this, I should have as said. Any extra funds should not be with big risk and debt 100%.
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Firstly thanks to SM for a very comprehensive reply, I think it's great to have some differing viewpoints and really detailed discussion.
I think in conclusion it has helped me think about it a little more and that's great. The thing that sticks out for me is the business head Vs supporter head and that's exactly why I'd never ever work in football, the emotions of it get in the way.
What I will say is that to me it's clear we've got our house in order really well to have a strong fixed base, something Gavin's article alludes to. As fans we should absolutely not detract from that at all. We need it, no doubt there.
I actually think most of us are on the same wavelength. That solid foundation is great but I do think to really kick on we do need that extra funding. Interesting to me that there is a point about a complete buy out as opposed to new co owner and I can see fully why thats a better option. Make no mistake selling a self funding club is far easier than a failing one. I do think it inevitably needs to happen at some point, but I do agree with the point that it shouldn't just be to anyone.
What I find fascinating is whether this will happen. As is said it's all built up well off the pitch so will we see someone come in who will commit to spending to get where footballing wise we want to be.
I think the clubs at a bit of a cross roads and where we go next is fascinating, but as has been said at the very least we have a safety net.
I think Baz touches on a good point on the owner and I think it's a fair point that he's a wealthy man who doesn't want to spend big like JR did. I think that's a fair point that some make, but I do also sympathise because we have got a club that won't simply disappear it has a future. For me it's just what that future will be. Does someone want to come in and commit a few quid each year or do we live only within what we generate. To be successful on the pitch I do feel it needs to be more than that.
I think the answer is that the "solid foundation" becomes "promotion to the Championship" if all the pieces fall exactly together e.g. the right manager, maybe a player sale windfall, some canny signings, a system that works with the players we have. Both Rotherham United and Peterborough do this in different ways. You can see with Rotherham United that as soon as one piece in their system got taken away when Warne left, it has all gone to shit.
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Firstly thanks to SM for a very comprehensive reply, I think it's great to have some differing viewpoints and really detailed discussion.
I think in conclusion it has helped me think about it a little more and that's great. The thing that sticks out for me is the business head Vs supporter head and that's exactly why I'd never ever work in football, the emotions of it get in the way.
What I will say is that to me it's clear we've got our house in order really well to have a strong fixed base, something Gavin's article alludes to. As fans we should absolutely not detract from that at all. We need it, no doubt there.
I actually think most of us are on the same wavelength. That solid foundation is great but I do think to really kick on we do need that extra funding. Interesting to me that there is a point about a complete buy out as opposed to new co owner and I can see fully why thats a better option. Make no mistake selling a self funding club is far easier than a failing one. I do think it inevitably needs to happen at some point, but I do agree with the point that it shouldn't just be to anyone.
What I find fascinating is whether this will happen. As is said it's all built up well off the pitch so will we see someone come in who will commit to spending to get where footballing wise we want to be.
I think the clubs at a bit of a cross roads and where we go next is fascinating, but as has been said at the very least we have a safety net.
I think Baz touches on a good point on the owner and I think it's a fair point that he's a wealthy man who doesn't want to spend big like JR did. I think that's a fair point that some make, but I do also sympathise because we have got a club that won't simply disappear it has a future. For me it's just what that future will be. Does someone want to come in and commit a few quid each year or do we live only within what we generate. To be successful on the pitch I do feel it needs to be more than that.
When you talk about 'where we want to be', pud I believe you are talking about 'we' the fans. So, where is that? From past experience, no amount of success on the field will satisfy some fans to the point they don't want to go still higher. You will remember so many discussions when we had our great run in the Championship where some were talking of reaching 'the promised land' of the Premiership. To talk about where we want to be means absolutely nothing because it means something different to each and every one of us.
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I posed this question elsewhere when someone said "Being sustainable means standing still"
If being sustainable equals standing still, how do you plan to be unsustainable to move forward?
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Beautiful DBR. Plain beautiful!
It'll be too subtle though for the author of the syllogism to which you refer.
BobG
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I posed this question elsewhere when someone said "Being sustainable means standing still"
If being sustainable equals standing still, how do you plan to be unsustainable to move forward?
I guess it means simply either increasing revenues or decreasing costs.
It's a tough economy to do either - but the added revenues should be the option and that in turn spent on the first team or development of players into our first team. I keep banging on about our youth team and development into first team - truthfully who can say Woltman has done any better than Kuleya (when he was given an opportunity) we can never sell Woltman but could make a huge profit from the likes of a Kuleya type. Even 1/2 a season of success could see a million pound profit on a youth player.
I am desperate not just to see us improve as a team but to improve as a system.
In this day and age it means investing more in the first team (long or short term).
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Canadian Rover completely agree with the Kuleya v Woltman comment, however if Kuleya is getting more game time maybe that aids his development and we get an even better version back. All that said I would still love to see him here coming off the bench.
Eddie Jones hit the nail on the head when talking about his England squad - he has starters and finishers. At the moment we have a decent set of starters but the finishers are not quite good enough
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Spot on there, looking at the bench yesterday did not inspire a lot of confidence.
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I posed this question elsewhere when someone said "Being sustainable means standing still"
If being sustainable equals standing still, how do you plan to be unsustainable to move forward?
I guess it means simply either increasing revenues or decreasing costs.
It's a tough economy to do either - but the added revenues should be the option and that in turn spent on the first team or development of players into our first team. I keep banging on about our youth team and development into first team - truthfully who can say Woltman has done any better than Kuleya (when he was given an opportunity) we can never sell Woltman but could make a huge profit from the likes of a Kuleya type. Even 1/2 a season of success could see a million pound profit on a youth player.
I am desperate not just to see us improve as a team but to improve as a system.
In this day and age it means investing more in the first team (long or short term).
That's all sensible and within a sustainable approach. It's unfortunate that the toxic fans can't distinguish between sustainabllity and self sufficiency.
That all said, we do need strengthening and unfortunately more injuries have been bestowed upon us leaving a lack of depth.
It will be disappointing if we miss the opportunity to give this squad a leg up when we're close to being a really good side in touch of the play offs and beyond.
I think we have seen an improvement of late that indicates the players are responding to DS and confidence may be growing. Let's not let it slip.
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I posed this question elsewhere when someone said "Being sustainable means standing still"
If being sustainable equals standing still, how do you plan to be unsustainable to move forward?
I guess it means simply either increasing revenues or decreasing costs.
It's a tough economy to do either - but the added revenues should be the option and that in turn spent on the first team or development of players into our first team. I keep banging on about our youth team and development into first team - truthfully who can say Woltman has done any better than Kuleya (when he was given an opportunity) we can never sell Woltman but could make a huge profit from the likes of a Kuleya type. Even 1/2 a season of success could see a million pound profit on a youth player.
I am desperate not just to see us improve as a team but to improve as a system.
In this day and age it means investing more in the first team (long or short term).
Looks like progress is happening here with Sinclair's new role.
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A very interesting and enjoyable read. I agree with most of the comments, some from prominent posters I have not always agreed with. Shame a couple of posters have to be petty and spoil it.