Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: normal rules on February 11, 2023, 08:41:43 am
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I see there was planned peaceful protest last night in Knowsley outside a hotel housing migrants.
It was anything but peaceful. A police van burnt to a shell, cars damaged, officers hurt.
It’s like the EDL all over again.
And locally, we have a similar protest planned in Skegness on feb 25.
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If only they had stuck themselves to the road peacefully then maybe the police and government might have done something.
Only last Wednesday a government review of the terrorist threat to this country downplayed the role of the Far-Right and said less resources should be concentrated on them.
You appease the fasc, dont be surprised if you get fascism.
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Rabble emboldened by this Governments attitude to the current problem.
When a very senior cabinet member "dreams of the day" she can see a plane load of immigrants on it's way to Rwanda what do you expect
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Dog whistle stuff.
Thursday the Home Secretary talks about a Prevent programme that has (successfully) been targeted at far right terrorism as "politically correct".
Friday night, far right thugs take to the streets.
Braverman WOULD espouse fascism if she thought she could get away with it. She's a frightening woman.
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If there was going to any protesting it should of been outside the building that houses these awful politicians with their god awful policies.
I think we are beyond the point where this government has long been served its sell buy date.
There really does need to be a major reset in this country to stop us drifting on the winds of whichever ludicrous ideology we are to be bombarded with next.
We need someone to come to power with the vision to do this and enable some form of suitable PR to be rushed through to stop these extreme elements from being anywhere near power in future.
Are we safe from the next government believing it has a mandate to rush for the opposite direction?
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What would you class as 'the opposite direction' to firebombing police vans dd? Not firebombing police vans?
PR will actually help extreme elements gain power btw. UKIP got 12.5% of the votes in 2015 and 1 MP. Lib Dems had 8% and 8 MP's and SNP 4.7% and 56 MP's.
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I see Cruella has now come out and blamed the allegations of sexual abuse, man released with no charges, at the refugee centre for the violence
Shamefull!!
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https://twitter.com/SuellaBraverman/status/1624450521154129920
I don't often feel ashamed to be British, but the fact that I live in a land that has had two abominations for Home Secretary over the past few years disgusts me.
This is absolutely disgraceful from Braverman. The very fact that she raises "the alleged behaviour" will justify the actions of the fascist thugs to a certain section of society.
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https://twitter.com/SuellaBraverman/status/1624450521154129920
I don't often feel ashamed to be British, but the fact that I live in a land that has had two abominations for Home Secretary over the past few years disgusts me.
This is absolutely disgraceful from Braverman. The very fact that she raises "the alleged behaviour" will justify the actions of the fascist thugs to a certain section of society.
Which is exactly what it is intended to do. Bring back the 6% who have deserted the Tories for the Reform party. How the few decent people left can continue to support this shower of s***e is beyond me.
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25% still vote or will vote Tory !!!
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What would you class as 'the opposite direction' to firebombing police vans dd? Not firebombing police vans?
PR will actually help extreme elements gain power btw. UKIP got 12.5% of the votes in 2015 and 1 MP. Lib Dems had 8% and 8 MP's and SNP 4.7% and 56 MP's.
Not sure where you get the next government rushing in the opposite direction with regards to policy and ideology manifests itself as "fire bombing police vans" but hey, at least your consistent.
As for PR enabling extremists, this is the UK not Israel or the like, can you see some extremist elements getting anything like enough percentage wise to win seats?
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What would you class as 'the opposite direction' to firebombing police vans dd? Not firebombing police vans?
PR will actually help extreme elements gain power btw. UKIP got 12.5% of the votes in 2015 and 1 MP. Lib Dems had 8% and 8 MP's and SNP 4.7% and 56 MP's.
Not sure where you get the next government rushing in the opposite direction with regards to policy and ideology manifests itself as "fire bombing police vans" but hey, at least your consistent.
As for PR enabling extremists, this is the UK not Israel or the like, can you see some extremist elements getting anything like enough percentage wise to win seats?
Yes. Because UKIP got 12.5% in 2017 (that's about 75 MP's) and their policies and spokespeople are the same as those people in Knowsley on Friday night.
If you don't believe me - listen to the leader of Britain First:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XAZEPRsFIs
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What would you class as 'the opposite direction' to firebombing police vans dd? Not firebombing police vans?
PR will actually help extreme elements gain power btw. UKIP got 12.5% of the votes in 2015 and 1 MP. Lib Dems had 8% and 8 MP's and SNP 4.7% and 56 MP's.
Not sure where you get the next government rushing in the opposite direction with regards to policy and ideology manifests itself as "fire bombing police vans" but hey, at least your consistent.
As for PR enabling extremists, this is the UK not Israel or the like, can you see some extremist elements getting anything like enough percentage wise to win seats?
Yes. Because UKIP got 12.5% in 2017 (that's about 75 MP's) and their policies and spokespeople are the same as those people in Knowsley on Friday night.
If you don't believe me - listen to the leader of Britain First:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XAZEPRsFIs
Completely another time and place, UKIP now don’t exist in that incarnation anymore.
Any far right grouping in the next election would be nowhere near those numbers. If anything it could be a far left grouping that attracted a bigger support, something for all mainstream parties to have to give credence to and construct their manifesto pledges accordingly.
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You reckon. Those people still exist - as do the media outlets who feed them.
Increase in hate crime in UK 2018-2022. Vote for the facs - you get facsism
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Christ. That is one scary, scary table.
The causes of it though are even more scary.
BobG
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The scariest thing for me Bob is people denying it exists when presented with exactly the same evidence I have.
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I was discussing just today the myopic 'my world' view of a large proportion of humanity. Stuck in their comfort zone, blind to anything that challenges their private Weltanschaung. Progress, change, only ever comes from those who possess bravery, a mind willing to accept evidence based facts irrespective of whether or not they like those facts, and, eyes open far enough to actually see what's in front of them. I didn't and don't like Mrs Thatcher, but shutting my eyes, my mind, to the revolution she wrought because I didn't and don't like what she did, would be as stupid as the blindness you have pointed out Wilts.
BobG
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What would you class as 'the opposite direction' to firebombing police vans dd? Not firebombing police vans?
PR will actually help extreme elements gain power btw. UKIP got 12.5% of the votes in 2015 and 1 MP. Lib Dems had 8% and 8 MP's and SNP 4.7% and 56 MP's.
Not sure where you get the next government rushing in the opposite direction with regards to policy and ideology manifests itself as "fire bombing police vans" but hey, at least your consistent.
As for PR enabling extremists, this is the UK not Israel or the like, can you see some extremist elements getting anything like enough percentage wise to win seats?
I doubt very much any of them in Knowsley vote Tory either of course i have no proof of that!
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What would you class as 'the opposite direction' to firebombing police vans dd? Not firebombing police vans?
PR will actually help extreme elements gain power btw. UKIP got 12.5% of the votes in 2015 and 1 MP. Lib Dems had 8% and 8 MP's and SNP 4.7% and 56 MP's.
Not sure where you get the next government rushing in the opposite direction with regards to policy and ideology manifests itself as "fire bombing police vans" but hey, at least your consistent.
As for PR enabling extremists, this is the UK not Israel or the like, can you see some extremist elements getting anything like enough percentage wise to win seats?
I doubt very much any of them in Knowsley vote Tory either of course i have no proof of that!
4 1/2k voted Tory there in 2019 with another 3k voting Brexit Party.
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What would you class as 'the opposite direction' to firebombing police vans dd? Not firebombing police vans?
PR will actually help extreme elements gain power btw. UKIP got 12.5% of the votes in 2015 and 1 MP. Lib Dems had 8% and 8 MP's and SNP 4.7% and 56 MP's.
Not sure where you get the next government rushing in the opposite direction with regards to policy and ideology manifests itself as "fire bombing police vans" but hey, at least your consistent.
As for PR enabling extremists, this is the UK not Israel or the like, can you see some extremist elements getting anything like enough percentage wise to win seats?
I doubt very much any of them in Knowsley vote Tory either of course i have no proof of that!
4 1/2k voted Tory there in 2019 with another 3k voting Brexit Party.
And 44,000 voted Labour, they got 80% of the entire vote, what does that tell you ?
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A consituency populated, in the main, by reasonably sensible people!
BobG
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A consituency populated, in the main, by reasonably sensible people!
BobG
I have said it before most Labour voters have a veiw on Assylum seekers which is slightly to the right of Ghengis Khan!
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Sproty.
I assume you mean most of the Labour voters YOU KNOW.
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What would you class as 'the opposite direction' to firebombing police vans dd? Not firebombing police vans?
PR will actually help extreme elements gain power btw. UKIP got 12.5% of the votes in 2015 and 1 MP. Lib Dems had 8% and 8 MP's and SNP 4.7% and 56 MP's.
Not sure where you get the next government rushing in the opposite direction with regards to policy and ideology manifests itself as "fire bombing police vans" but hey, at least your consistent.
As for PR enabling extremists, this is the UK not Israel or the like, can you see some extremist elements getting anything like enough percentage wise to win seats?
I doubt very much any of them in Knowsley vote Tory either of course i have no proof of that!
4 1/2k voted Tory there in 2019 with another 3k voting Brexit Party.
And 44,000 voted Labour, they got 80% of the entire vote, what does that tell you ?
There were 7 1/2k people who voted for right wing parties in Knowsley who may have been part of the 400 people involved in the firebombing of a police van last Friday night. Or they may have all been from outside the area.
What does it tell you?
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What would you class as 'the opposite direction' to firebombing police vans dd? Not firebombing police vans?
PR will actually help extreme elements gain power btw. UKIP got 12.5% of the votes in 2015 and 1 MP. Lib Dems had 8% and 8 MP's and SNP 4.7% and 56 MP's.
It tells me that on the balance of probabilities that 80% of the Trouble
Causes were Labour voters
Not sure where you get the next government rushing in the opposite direction with regards to policy and ideology manifests itself as "fire bombing police vans" but hey, at least your consistent.
As for PR enabling extremists, this is the UK not Israel or the like, can you see some extremist elements getting anything like enough percentage wise to win seats?
I doubt very much any of them in Knowsley vote Tory either of course i have no proof of that!
4 1/2k voted Tory there in 2019 with another 3k voting Brexit Party.
And 44,000 voted Labour, they got 80% of the entire vote, what does that tell you ?
There were 7 1/2k people who voted for right wing parties in Knowsley who may have been part of the 400 people involved in the firebombing of a police van last Friday night. Or they may have all been from outside the area.
What does it tell you?
80% of the trouble causes vote labour
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What would you class as 'the opposite direction' to firebombing police vans dd? Not firebombing police vans?
PR will actually help extreme elements gain power btw. UKIP got 12.5% of the votes in 2015 and 1 MP. Lib Dems had 8% and 8 MP's and SNP 4.7% and 56 MP's.
It tells me that on the balance of probabilities that 80% of the Trouble
Causes were Labour voters
Not sure where you get the next government rushing in the opposite direction with regards to policy and ideology manifests itself as "fire bombing police vans" but hey, at least your consistent.
As for PR enabling extremists, this is the UK not Israel or the like, can you see some extremist elements getting anything like enough percentage wise to win seats?
I doubt very much any of them in Knowsley vote Tory either of course i have no proof of that!
4 1/2k voted Tory there in 2019 with another 3k voting Brexit Party.
And 44,000 voted Labour, they got 80% of the entire vote, what does that tell you ?
There were 7 1/2k people who voted for right wing parties in Knowsley who may have been part of the 400 people involved in the firebombing of a police van last Friday night. Or they may have all been from outside the area.
What does it tell you?
80% of the trouble causes vote labour
Really? Who were in the counter protest against the far-right fascist thugs then?
As I said above it's not the fact hate crime is increasing in this country that bothers me. It's the fact that presented with the same evidence I have people deny that it is.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/02/17/frjk-f17.html
https://bylinetimes.com/2023/02/13/what-the-knowsley-riot-tells-us-about-the-far-right-today/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/knowsley-asylum-seeker-hotel-riot-b2281367.html
https://shows.acast.com/byline-times-podcast/episodes/knowsley-the-far-right
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What would you class as 'the opposite direction' to firebombing police vans dd? Not firebombing police vans?
PR will actually help extreme elements gain power btw. UKIP got 12.5% of the votes in 2015 and 1 MP. Lib Dems had 8% and 8 MP's and SNP 4.7% and 56 MP's.
It tells me that on the balance of probabilities that 80% of the Trouble
Causes were Labour voters
Not sure where you get the next government rushing in the opposite direction with regards to policy and ideology manifests itself as "fire bombing police vans" but hey, at least your consistent.
As for PR enabling extremists, this is the UK not Israel or the like, can you see some extremist elements getting anything like enough percentage wise to win seats?
I doubt very much any of them in Knowsley vote Tory either of course i have no proof of that!
4 1/2k voted Tory there in 2019 with another 3k voting Brexit Party.
And 44,000 voted Labour, they got 80% of the entire vote, what does that tell you ?
There were 7 1/2k people who voted for right wing parties in Knowsley who may have been part of the 400 people involved in the firebombing of a police van last Friday night. Or they may have all been from outside the area.
What does it tell you?
80% of the trouble causes vote labour
Really? Who were in the counter protest against the far-right fascist thugs then?
As I said above it's not the fact hate crime is increasing in this country that bothers me. It's the fact that presented with the same evidence I have people deny that it is.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/02/17/frjk-f17.html
https://bylinetimes.com/2023/02/13/what-the-knowsley-riot-tells-us-about-the-far-right-today/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/knowsley-asylum-seeker-hotel-riot-b2281367.html
https://shows.acast.com/byline-times-podcast/episodes/knowsley-the-far-right
I will hazard a guess and say the Counter Demonstrators were a bunch of left wing idiots,who also went there to make the Police
job more difficult .
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What would you class as 'the opposite direction' to firebombing police vans dd? Not firebombing police vans?
PR will actually help extreme elements gain power btw. UKIP got 12.5% of the votes in 2015 and 1 MP. Lib Dems had 8% and 8 MP's and SNP 4.7% and 56 MP's.
It tells me that on the balance of probabilities that 80% of the Trouble
Causes were Labour voters
Not sure where you get the next government rushing in the opposite direction with regards to policy and ideology manifests itself as "fire bombing police vans" but hey, at least your consistent.
As for PR enabling extremists, this is the UK not Israel or the like, can you see some extremist elements getting anything like enough percentage wise to win seats?
I doubt very much any of them in Knowsley vote Tory either of course i have no proof of that!
4 1/2k voted Tory there in 2019 with another 3k voting Brexit Party.
And 44,000 voted Labour, they got 80% of the entire vote, what does that tell you ?
There were 7 1/2k people who voted for right wing parties in Knowsley who may have been part of the 400 people involved in the firebombing of a police van last Friday night. Or they may have all been from outside the area.
What does it tell you?
80% of the trouble causes vote labour
Really? Who were in the counter protest against the far-right fascist thugs then?
As I said above it's not the fact hate crime is increasing in this country that bothers me. It's the fact that presented with the same evidence I have people deny that it is.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/02/17/frjk-f17.html
https://bylinetimes.com/2023/02/13/what-the-knowsley-riot-tells-us-about-the-far-right-today/
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/knowsley-asylum-seeker-hotel-riot-b2281367.html
https://shows.acast.com/byline-times-podcast/episodes/knowsley-the-far-right
I will hazard a guess and say the Counter Demonstrators were a bunch of left wing idiots,who also went there to make the Police
job more difficult .
Opposing the right wing fascists that you have denied existed until now?
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So you make policy, and your opinions vased in guesswirk then Sproty? Figures.
Ref your response se in post 26 above.
BobG
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So you make policy, and your opinions vased in guesswirk then Sproty? Figures.
Ref your response se in post 26 above.
BobG
I do believe I have a good grasp of the English language but I don’t know what you are raving on about?
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https://metro.co.uk/2023/02/21/im-an-asylum-seeker-and-was-in-the-hotel-targeted-by-far-right-rioters-18316836/
Horrible to read about the welcome this man received after going through so much
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There's boat loads of research Sprotty that proves conclusively that 99.9% of sentient people can read perfectly well what looks to be gobbledegook. These people read the sense of what's written. What makes you different I wonder....
You could start to practice with 'json born'
BobG
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Go and see a Doctor Bob!
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Go and see a Doctor Bob!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb9L3iAUhc0
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https://metro.co.uk/2023/02/21/im-an-asylum-seeker-and-was-in-the-hotel-targeted-by-far-right-rioters-18316836/
Horrible to read about the welcome this man received after going through so much
Well, the Home Secretary has tonight given a tacit thumbs up to those who tried torching that hotel housing asylum seekers.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1628474788783030273
I don't say this lightly, but she is genuinely evil. A horrible, hateful woman who would be an out and out fascist if she could get away with it.
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https://metro.co.uk/2023/02/21/im-an-asylum-seeker-and-was-in-the-hotel-targeted-by-far-right-rioters-18316836/
Horrible to read about the welcome this man received after going through so much
Well, the Home Secretary has tonight given a tacit thumbs up to those who tried torching that hotel housing asylum seekers.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1628474788783030273
I don't say this lightly, but she is genuinely evil. A horrible, hateful woman who would be an out and out fascist if she could get away with it.
Sad to hear. I thought we were getting past this in our society.
There really is a gap in UK politics for a party to come in and offer an free, prosperous and hopeful vision for the future.
I don’t see myself voting at present.
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https://metro.co.uk/2023/02/21/im-an-asylum-seeker-and-was-in-the-hotel-targeted-by-far-right-rioters-18316836/
Horrible to read about the welcome this man received after going through so much
Well, the Home Secretary has tonight given a tacit thumbs up to those who tried torching that hotel housing asylum seekers.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1628474788783030273
I don't say this lightly, but she is genuinely evil. A horrible, hateful woman who would be an out and out fascist if she could get away with it.
Sad to hear. I thought we were getting past this in our society.
There really is a gap in UK politics for a party to come in and offer an free, prosperous and hopeful vision for the future.
I don’t see myself voting at present.
THere is. But with a media controlled by millionaire tax dodgers willing to spread any lies to keep the Tories in power so they can carry on dodging that tax, there is absolutely no way they would be allowed to get a hearing.
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https://metro.co.uk/2023/02/21/im-an-asylum-seeker-and-was-in-the-hotel-targeted-by-far-right-rioters-18316836/
Horrible to read about the welcome this man received after going through so much
Well, the Home Secretary has tonight given a tacit thumbs up to those who tried torching that hotel housing asylum seekers.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1628474788783030273
I don't say this lightly, but she is genuinely evil. A horrible, hateful woman who would be an out and out fascist if she could get away with it.
Sad to hear. I thought we were getting past this in our society.
There really is a gap in UK politics for a party to come in and offer an free, prosperous and hopeful vision for the future.
I don’t see myself voting at present.
THere is. But with a media controlled by millionaire tax dodgers willing to spread any lies to keep the Tories in power so they can carry on dodging that tax, there is absolutely no way they would be allowed to get a hearing.
My politics don’t really align with Labour.
I think you’re being a bit conspiratorial, people can make up their own minds.
Starmer’s uncontroversial nature will win him the next election but it will ultimately be his downfall.
That or his net zero by 2030 idea. The justification for which I wouldn’t view as an optimistic view for the future. Even so, it’s very unrealistic and he’s setting himself up for not meeting a pledge.
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Different topic, but I see there was an anti Low Traffic protest in Oxford a few days ago. I’ve seen a few videos and this protest did not look like some nationalistic, facist right wing gig. And yet a counter, Antifa type mob were present to to mix things up. Am I missing something?
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Does it ever make you wonder how these low traffic or stop oil etc protesters get to wherever they are protesting?
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Does it ever make you wonder how these low traffic or stop oil etc protesters get to wherever they are protesting?
They probably cycle there..in lane three of the Motorway!
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Does it ever make you wonder how these low traffic or stop oil etc protesters get to wherever they are protesting?
They were actually protesting against plans for Oxford to be car free.
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https://metro.co.uk/2023/02/21/im-an-asylum-seeker-and-was-in-the-hotel-targeted-by-far-right-rioters-18316836/
Horrible to read about the welcome this man received after going through so much
Well, the Home Secretary has tonight given a tacit thumbs up to those who tried torching that hotel housing asylum seekers.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1628474788783030273
I don't say this lightly, but she is genuinely evil. A horrible, hateful woman who would be an out and out fascist if she could get away with it.
Sad to hear. I thought we were getting past this in our society.
There really is a gap in UK politics for a party to come in and offer an free, prosperous and hopeful vision for the future.
I don’t see myself voting at present.
No way are we getting past this in modern society.
It is all the Right has. They have no economic philosophy (or at least none that actually works to a country's benefit). They have no concept of what they want society to be like in future. They exist for one purpose only - power for the sake of power. And they've spiralled in on the only thing they have left - stoke up people's fear and resentment of The Other.
Braverman knows exactly what she is doing here. She knows that there's a big group of Tory party members who quietly and in there own homes would support the victimisation of the asylum seekers, and be on the side of the rioters. She's calling out to them to vote for her when Sunak stands down after the next election. She needs to keep the fear and hatred of The Otrher in the spotlight. So of course she's not going to criticise the rioters.
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Does it ever make you wonder how these low traffic or stop oil etc protesters get to wherever they are protesting?
They were actually protesting against plans for Oxford to be car free.
My apologies, the report I heard said they were in favour of the low traffic scheme
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https://metro.co.uk/2023/02/21/im-an-asylum-seeker-and-was-in-the-hotel-targeted-by-far-right-rioters-18316836/
Horrible to read about the welcome this man received after going through so much
Well, the Home Secretary has tonight given a tacit thumbs up to those who tried torching that hotel housing asylum seekers.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1628474788783030273
I don't say this lightly, but she is genuinely evil. A horrible, hateful woman who would be an out and out fascist if she could get away with it.
Sad to hear. I thought we were getting past this in our society.
There really is a gap in UK politics for a party to come in and offer an free, prosperous and hopeful vision for the future.
I don’t see myself voting at present.
No way are we getting past this in modern society.
It is all the Right has. They have no economic philosophy (or at least none that actually works to a country's benefit). They have no concept of what they want society to be like in future. They exist for one purpose only - power for the sake of power. And they've spiralled in on the only thing they have left - stoke up people's fear and resentment of The Other.
Braverman knows exactly what she is doing here. She knows that there's a big group of Tory party members who quietly and in there own homes would support the victimisation of the asylum seekers, and be on the side of the rioters. She's calling out to them to vote for her when Sunak stands down after the next election. She needs to keep the fear and hatred of The Otrher in the spotlight. So of course she's not going to criticise the rioters.
Would you describe yourself as a centrist?
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No, I'd describe myself as centre-left.
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https://metro.co.uk/2023/02/21/im-an-asylum-seeker-and-was-in-the-hotel-targeted-by-far-right-rioters-18316836/
Horrible to read about the welcome this man received after going through so much
Well, the Home Secretary has tonight given a tacit thumbs up to those who tried torching that hotel housing asylum seekers.
https://twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1628474788783030273
I don't say this lightly, but she is genuinely evil. A horrible, hateful woman who would be an out and out fascist if she could get away with it.
Sad to hear. I thought we were getting past this in our society.
There really is a gap in UK politics for a party to come in and offer an free, prosperous and hopeful vision for the future.
I don’t see myself voting at present.
THere is. But with a media controlled by millionaire tax dodgers willing to spread any lies to keep the Tories in power so they can carry on dodging that tax, there is absolutely no way they would be allowed to get a hearing.
My politics don’t really align with Labour.
I think you’re being a bit conspiratorial, people can make up their own minds.
Starmer’s uncontroversial nature will win him the next election but it will ultimately be his downfall.
That or his net zero by 2030 idea. The justification for which I wouldn’t view as an optimistic view for the future. Even so, it’s very unrealistic and he’s setting himself up for not meeting a pledge.
People can make up their own minds from the information they are provided with.
The information they are provided with comes primarily from Tory controlled/sympathetic media sources.
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Different topic, but I see there was an anti Low Traffic protest in Oxford a few days ago. I’ve seen a few videos and this protest did not look like some nationalistic, facist right wing gig. And yet a counter, Antifa type mob were present to to mix things up. Am I missing something?
Yes its a free country with free speech. People are allowed to campaign for what they want. If someone organises a protest against something you dont support - you are allowed a counter protest so people know you want it.
Especially if it is co-organised by neo-Nazi's:
https://uk.sports.yahoo.com/news/member-neo-nazi-group-anti-134752863.html
https://symonhill.org/2023/02/18/conspiracy-theories-and-the-road-to-fascism-or-a-strange-day-in-oxford/
Or am I missing something?
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No, I'd describe myself as centre-left.
Who would you trust more with the economy? Left-wing Jeremy Corbyn or Centre-right David Cameron?
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Protests and counter protests generally attract those at the political spectrum extremes while normal people are doing normal people stuff.
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No, I'd describe myself as centre-left.
Who would you trust more with the economy? Left-wing Jeremy Corbyn or Centre-right David Cameron?
Corbyn. By a country mile. At least, assuming he had McDonnell as his Chancellor. McDonnell understands how capitalist economies work WAY better that Cameron.
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No, I'd describe myself as centre-left.
Who would you trust more with the economy? Left-wing Jeremy Corbyn or Centre-right David Cameron?
Corbyn. By a country mile. At least, assuming he had McDonnell as his Chancellor. McDonnell understands how capitalist economies work WAY better that Cameron.
Are there any examples of leaders as left-wing as Corbyn / McDonnell providing long-term prosperity to a country?
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The Attlee Govt in 1945 set us on an unprecedented path of economic growth.
If we are asking those sorts of questions, do you know of any examples of economic policy as disastrously bad as Cameron's Austerity, based on the idiotic concept of expansionary fiscal contraction.
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Far-right protest in South Yorkshire last weekend. Spot anyone from here on it:
https://twitter.com/TheNewsAgents/status/1628692641255682050
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The Attlee Govt in 1945 set us on an unprecedented path of economic growth.
If we are asking those sorts of questions, do you know of any examples of economic policy as disastrously bad as Cameron's Austerity, based on the idiotic concept of expansionary fiscal contraction.
The economic boom post ww2 wasn’t called the golden age of capitalism for nothing. Any leader and any government would have succeeded economically. Up to and including the recession of 73 of course.
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NR.
It was because, across the developed world, there was the constructive involvement of Government in the economy.
The Golden Age of Capitalism didn't just drop out of the heavens into the laps of politicians. The foundations of it were put in place by politicians who understood the macroeconomic framework that business needed.
That was a massive change to the appalling mess made of macroeconomics by the (mostly Conservative) Governments from 1920 to the mid 1930s.
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That said, it was only as recent as 2006 that the uk finally paid off the last of its ww2 war loans to the US.
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That's because most Govt debt never does (or needs to) get repaid.
It was only 8 years ago that we paid off the last of the debt the Govt rang up bailing out the shitstorm created by the South Sea Bubble in 1720.
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Attlee worked closely with J M Keynes, arguably the greatest economist to have ever lived, and despite the country being practically bankrupt after WW2, Keynsian economics set us on the road to prosperity, among all the other radical policies his government oversaw.
When the Tories regained power in 1951 (despite Labour polling far more votes) they continued to follow this fiscal policy, allowing McMillan to be able to say we'd never had it so good, in the late 50's.
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That's because most Govt debt never does (or needs to) get repaid.
It was only 8 years ago that we paid off the last of the debt the Govt rang up bailing out the shitstorm created by the South Sea Bubble in 1720.
[/quoteThat's because most Govt debt never does (or needs to) get repaid.
It was only 8 years ago that we paid off the last of the debt the Govt rang up bailing out the shitstorm created by the South Sea Bubble in 1720.
When you say MOST goverment debt never does (or needs to)get repaid,
Can you alighten us with the govermrnt debt that DOES need to be paid.
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Fair points. I guess Atlee had a clean slate though. That now would drive investment away from the country so I’ll ask for more recent examples.
Japan, USA and South Korea didn’t have that model post war and also saw a great boom.
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Exactly TT.
Attlee inherited a national debt of 250% of GDP, and got it down to 185% within 6 years, through Keysenian management of the economy and getting industry firing.
Whereas after WWI, under the Tories we first had eye watering Austerity and the accompanying 20% unemployment in an attempt to grind down the national debt followed by the catastrophic decision to rejoin the Gold Standard at $4.86, which wiped out much of our exporting economy. The Tories (Lloyd George was PM but it was a Tory Govt) had a national debt of 150% of GDP in 1920. By 1933, after a decade of grim Austerity, it was up to 190%.
Cameron made precisely the same horrible mistake in 2010. And STILL some folk automatically think the Tories are better at managing the economy than Labour. It's a weird, quasi-religious belief.
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The USA had, by it's standards, a hugely interventionist Govt from 1936 onwards. They were the first in the World to introduce Keynesianism.
Japan and South Korea were rebooted by massive investment from occupying military forces and bear no resemblance at all to the UK experience.
I don't say this because I support Labour. I support Labour because they have a consistently better economic track record than the Tories. The Attlee Govt in particular, the most left wing one we've ever had, is held up by professional economists as having done an excellent job.
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Fair points. I guess Atlee had a clean slate though. That now would drive investment away from the country so I’ll ask for more recent examples.
Japan, USA and South Korea didn’t have that model post war and also saw a great boom.
A more recent example, would have been Gordon Brown, who's economic ideas were adopted by other countries to lead them out of the crash of 2008, but hey let's elect Cameron and Osborne instead, to strangle us with Austerity in some half arsed plan 'to balance' the books.'
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Fair points. I guess Atlee had a clean slate though. That now would drive investment away from the country so I’ll ask for more recent examples.
Japan, USA and South Korea didn’t have that model post war and also saw a great boom.
A more recent example, would have been Gordon Brown, who's economic ideas were adopted by other countries to lead them out of the crash of 2008, but hey let's elect Cameron and Osborne instead, to strangle us with Austerity in some half arsed idea of 'balancing the books.'
Which they never actually had any intention of doing unless it was a by-product of their idealogical obsession to have lower taxes for the rich & reduce public services for the rest of us.
See previous posts about Tory controlled media and how they fooled the country into thinking one thing was happening - knowing full well it wasn't but was a cover for something entirely different.
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Osborne (guided by his then economic adviser, one Matt Hancock) insisted that the idea of expansionary fiscal contraction [1] was the way to grow the economy.
There has never been a claptrap economic idea more roundly demolished by facts. But we went full on for it in 2010. And that, followed by the Brexit vote, is the reason why the 2010s saw the longest stagnation of wages since the Napoleonic Wars.
[1] We've known since the 1930s when Keynes developed his ideas, that the most important thing a Govt can do after a bad recession is to borrow and spend to keep the economy ticking over. Then, once private industry is up and running again, Govt can rein in its spending and raise taxes to pay back the debt.
Expansionary fiscal contraction was the batshit idea that the way to grow the economy was to cut Govt spending hard and quickly. Apparently this would show business that the Govt was hard headed and would control the debt, thus encouraging them to invest.
It had zero theoretical or practical backing. But we did it anyway. And it failed spectacularly.
And some folk still insist that the Tories understand how to run the economy.
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Fair points. I guess Atlee had a clean slate though. That now would drive investment away from the country so I’ll ask for more recent examples.
Japan, USA and South Korea didn’t have that model post war and also saw a great boom.
A more recent example, would have been Gordon Brown, who's economic ideas were adopted by other countries to lead them out of the crash of 2008, but hey let's elect Cameron and Osborne instead, to strangle us with Austerity in some half arsed plan 'to balance' the books.'
Oz labor did the same/followed suit very closely and was rounded on by the liberals.
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Like I’ve said before global economic events and the fallout were wrong to be blamed on Brown.
What economic philosophy was playing out in 1970s Britain?
What is left and right changes with the times. To go back to the models of the 20s and 30s would seem like extreme libertarianism/anarchism now and no one is calling for that.
Look at the G7 countries now. How many have been influenced by the economic readings of say Friedman and Hayek over Keynes in the last 50 years?
I think it’s disingenuous to say anything right of centre economically doesn’t work or soon descends in to nationalism without that. The US is built on immigration and champions it. Western countries have progressed so much in the last 50 years.
The vast amount of tech innovation has come from the US and Japan, why is that? Apple, Microsoft, Sony, Panasonic etc have done more to improve the lives of poor people than any left-wing figure in the last 50 years has.
As much as fossil-fuel companies are vilified by the left, they have made the G7 countries rich enough to start looking at greener energy.
Free market capitalism drives innovation and increasing efficiency within sectors and markets. It also helps to lift people out of poverty.
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What is right and left changes over time! What a load of rubbish.
Wealth creation for society lifts people out of poverty. Free market capitalism drove millions into poverty in Victorian Britain and now again in post-Brexit UK.
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What is right and left changes over time! What a load of rubbish.
Wealth creation for society lifts people out of poverty. Free market capitalism drove millions into poverty in Victorian Britain and now again in post-Brexit UK.
I’m not talking about Victorian Britain am I?
Well yes it does? It is relative to what is the status quo. Much like what is centrist economically would be radically left in the USA.
Yes wealth creation does that, you’re right. See my examples above.
You genuinely think that free market capitalism makes people poorer, seriously? Argue my points I made there perhaps and I’ll entertain the idea.
Also can you come up with an alternative to help African countries develop? Botswana developing the quickest as an economy right now, not exactly socialism happening there is it?
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NC
I'm not saying the Right NEVER has economic ideas. Of course they do.
I'm saying that right now, the Right has no underlying idea of what it wants to do with macroeconomic policy. None at all. They tied themselves to the voodoo economics that said it was all about the debt, and the results have been utterly disastrous. Most people are in denial about just how badly off the rails our economy has gone, because the numbers are scarcely believable, but we've lost well over £1trn in economic output since 2010, compared to the trend we'd experienced before then since the War. And there is nothing, nothing at all coming from the Right on how to address that. So THIS generation of Tory politicians is going full on Culture War. Because they have nothing else to offer.
You raise America as a counter example. Have you seen what macroeconomic policy there has been like for the past 15 years? They had massive Keynesian stimulus under Obama, and a phenomenal one is working through the system under Buden right now. Huge Govt spending to stimulate the economy. When Ed Milliband had a policy nowhere near as ambitious for us, the Tories called it "Marxist economics".
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NC
I'm not saying the Right NEVER has economic ideas. Of course they do.
I'm saying that right now, the Right has no underlying idea of what it wants to do with macroeconomic policy. None at all. They tied themselves to the voodoo economics that said it was all about the debt, and the results have been utterly disastrous. Most people are in denial about just how badly off the rails our economy has gone, because the numbers are scarcely believable, but we've lost well over £1trn in economic output since 2010, compared to the trend we'd experienced before then since the War. And there is nothing, nothing at all coming from the Right on how to address that. So THIS generation of Tory politicians is going full on Culture War. Because they have nothing else to offer.
You raise America as a counter example. Have you seen what macroeconomic policy there has been like for the past 15 years? They had massive Keynesian stimulus under Obama, and a phenomenal one is working through the system under Buden right now. Huge Govt spending to stimulate the economy. When Ed Milliband had a policy nowhere near as ambitious for us, the Tories called it "Marxist economics".
Yes the tories need to come up with an economic plan and vision that has optimism and prosperity at its heart. You’ve got to spend money to make money, and I guess that also depends on the timing. But most of that doesn’t have to come from the government, but in allowing the environment for business to flourish. We have to remember the shocks of Brexit, Covid and Ukraine.
Saying that, the focus on debt post-08 will have lead to stagnation. I’m not here to be a cheerleader on everything the tories do, their time is up and it’s time for someone else to have a go.
Economically I’m speaking more in ideas, and the idea that free market capitalism creates poverty from wilts is just plain false. I like the quote “if you secretly despise wealth, it will evade you”. The left let’s this creep in and it concerns me.
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Free market capitalism unrestrained creates inequality.
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Nc.
At the end of WWII, our debt was 250% of GDP.
We then had 30 years of Keynesian stimulus policy.
We had the best generation of economic growth in our history.
We had unprecedented increases in health and living standards.
By 1973, our debt was 35% of GDP.
There is no ordained reason why we had to stagnate after the GFC. We have stagnated because we chose an utterly dreadful macroeconomic policy.
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What is right and left changes over time! What a load of rubbish.
Wealth creation for society lifts people out of poverty. Free market capitalism drove millions into poverty in Victorian Britain and now again in post-Brexit UK.
I’m not talking about Victorian Britain am I?
Well yes it does? It is relative to what is the status quo. Much like what is centrist economically would be radically left in the USA.
Yes wealth creation does that, you’re right. See my examples above.
You genuinely think that free market capitalism makes people poorer, seriously? Argue my points I made there perhaps and I’ll entertain the idea.
Also can you come up with an alternative to help African countries develop? Botswana developing the quickest as an economy right now, not exactly socialism happening there is it?
You introduced free market capitalism and said it reduced poverty. Dont blame me if I come up with examples of free market capitalism creating poverty.
Africa has been exploited by free market capitalists stealing its wealth for 400 years. Bit rich to say it is now the solution to what it has caused.
Re-distribution of wealth is always the answer to ending poverty. How and to whom will vary depending on the time and place. You can have a revolution where the mass of people take it from the rich (such as the owners of the Botswana diamond mines), or a social democratic one that has a fair taxation system to spread that wealth across the population via public services.
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Some reading for you
https://medium.com/age-of-awareness/how-free-markets-hurt-people-and-planet-76309a8f7d42
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NC
I'm not saying the Right NEVER has economic ideas. Of course they do.
I'm saying that right now, the Right has no underlying idea of what it wants to do with macroeconomic policy. None at all. They tied themselves to the voodoo economics that said it was all about the debt, and the results have been utterly disastrous. Most people are in denial about just how badly off the rails our economy has gone, because the numbers are scarcely believable, but we've lost well over £1trn in economic output since 2010, compared to the trend we'd experienced before then since the War. And there is nothing, nothing at all coming from the Right on how to address that. So THIS generation of Tory politicians is going full on Culture War. Because they have nothing else to offer.
You raise America as a counter example. Have you seen what macroeconomic policy there has been like for the past 15 years? They had massive Keynesian stimulus under Obama, and a phenomenal one is working through the system under Buden right now. Huge Govt spending to stimulate the economy. When Ed Milliband had a policy nowhere near as ambitious for us, the Tories called it "Marxist economics".
Yes the tories need to come up with an economic plan and vision that has optimism and prosperity at its heart. You’ve got to spend money to make money, and I guess that also depends on the timing. But most of that doesn’t have to come from the government, but in allowing the environment for business to flourish. We have to remember the shocks of Brexit, Covid and Ukraine.
Saying that, the focus on debt post-08 will have lead to stagnation. I’m not here to be a cheerleader on everything the tories do, their time is up and it’s time for someone else to have a go.
Economically I’m speaking more in ideas, and the idea that free market capitalism creates poverty from wilts is just plain false. I like the quote “if you secretly despise wealth, it will evade you”. The left let’s this creep in and it concerns me.
I challenge you to find any serious figure on the Left who despises wealth.
You are committing the common error of the critics of the Left - conflating a dislike of unequal spread of wealth with a dislike of wealth itself.
I personally want us to be much wealthier as a country. I also want that wealth to be better and more equitably spread. The two are not mutually incompatible. In fact economic history suggests that higher overall growth occurs in eras when the proceeds of growth are more evenly spread.
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NC
I'm not saying the Right NEVER has economic ideas. Of course they do.
I'm saying that right now, the Right has no underlying idea of what it wants to do with macroeconomic policy. None at all. They tied themselves to the voodoo economics that said it was all about the debt, and the results have been utterly disastrous. Most people are in denial about just how badly off the rails our economy has gone, because the numbers are scarcely believable, but we've lost well over £1trn in economic output since 2010, compared to the trend we'd experienced before then since the War. And there is nothing, nothing at all coming from the Right on how to address that. So THIS generation of Tory politicians is going full on Culture War. Because they have nothing else to offer.
You raise America as a counter example. Have you seen what macroeconomic policy there has been like for the past 15 years? They had massive Keynesian stimulus under Obama, and a phenomenal one is working through the system under Buden right now. Huge Govt spending to stimulate the economy. When Ed Milliband had a policy nowhere near as ambitious for us, the Tories called it "Marxist economics".
Yes the tories need to come up with an economic plan and vision that has optimism and prosperity at its heart. You’ve got to spend money to make money, and I guess that also depends on the timing. But most of that doesn’t have to come from the government, but in allowing the environment for business to flourish. We have to remember the shocks of Brexit, Covid and Ukraine.
Saying that, the focus on debt post-08 will have lead to stagnation. I’m not here to be a cheerleader on everything the tories do, their time is up and it’s time for someone else to have a go.
Economically I’m speaking more in ideas, and the idea that free market capitalism creates poverty from wilts is just plain false. I like the quote “if you secretly despise wealth, it will evade you”. The left let’s this creep in and it concerns me.
I challenge you to find any serious figure on the Left who despises wealth.
You are committing the common error of the critics of the Left - conflating a dislike of unequal spread of wealth with a dislike of wealth itself.
I personally want us to be much wealthier as a country. I also want that wealth to be better and more equitably spread. The two are not mutually incompatible. In fact economic history suggests that higher overall growth occurs in eras when the proceeds of growth are more evenly spread.
I believe most people will agree with your opinion and that we all wish the country to be much wealthier and also that its spread among the population more equally and better.
The parting of the ways comes when it gets down to how that equality and spread is created. Some will not like the fact that individuals are given something for nothing, is it the correct thing to do to give to some what takes others a whole week of blood sweat and tears to achieve? would it be a right thing to do for the latter to become just like the former?
Should we be gifting people with nothing something? yes we should, should we be gifting them in some cases a great deal more than what others have to work two or three jobs to achieve?
Should we be ensuring that taxes are collected in a manner that is fair and equitable to all, yes we should, should we be allowing the top 1% to avoid their fair share? of course not.
Do we currently have a model of revenue collection that's' fit for purpose, of course not, will we get one that is on the arrival of a Labour government, i have grave doubts. did we have one during the last Labour administration?
Can anyone else see a recurring issue here?
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Some reading for you
https://medium.com/age-of-awareness/how-free-markets-hurt-people-and-planet-76309a8f7d42
This opinion piece lost me at “neoliberals believe all immigration should be illegal”
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Nc.
At the end of WWII, our debt was 250% of GDP.
We then had 30 years of Keynesian stimulus policy.
We had the best generation of economic growth in our history.
We had unprecedented increases in health and living standards.
By 1973, our debt was 35% of GDP.
There is no ordained reason why we had to stagnate after the GFC. We have stagnated because we chose an utterly dreadful macroeconomic policy.
This is a useful tool. Pick a year, pick a country and see how it has improved. You can also compare it to another.
https://www.humanprogress.org/ylin/
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Back to the original topic.
Every constituency in the UK on average believes that immigration is too high bar Bristol West.
https://britain.unherd.com/immigration/
There needs to be better messaging on the pros of immigration rather than talking down to people with concerns. The Knowsley bunch deserve contempt though.
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Nc.
At the end of WWII, our debt was 250% of GDP.
We then had 30 years of Keynesian stimulus policy.
We had the best generation of economic growth in our history.
We had unprecedented increases in health and living standards.
By 1973, our debt was 35% of GDP.
There is no ordained reason why we had to stagnate after the GFC. We have stagnated because we chose an utterly dreadful macroeconomic policy.
This is a useful tool. Pick a year, pick a country and see how it has improved. You can also compare it to another.
https://www.humanprogress.org/ylin/
It is for those metrics. But I have no idea what it has do with a critique on capitalism or right-wing extremists fire-bombing a police van during anti-immigration protests.
Were these anti-immigration protestors neo-liberal (capitalists) or not btw?
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Nc.
At the end of WWII, our debt was 250% of GDP.
We then had 30 years of Keynesian stimulus policy.
We had the best generation of economic growth in our history.
We had unprecedented increases in health and living standards.
By 1973, our debt was 35% of GDP.
There is no ordained reason why we had to stagnate after the GFC. We have stagnated because we chose an utterly dreadful macroeconomic policy.
This is a useful tool. Pick a year, pick a country and see how it has improved. You can also compare it to another.
https://www.humanprogress.org/ylin/
It is for those metrics. But I have no idea what it has do with a critique on capitalism or right-wing extremists fire-bombing a police van during anti-immigration protests.
Were these anti-immigration protestors neo-liberal (capitalists) or not btw?
It started out just picking BST’s brain really, I went off topic.
Who knows? But I think they’re a set of horrible tw*ts in the same way that you do.
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Unherd!! A right-wing populist website, founded by the author of Conservative Home (and later advisor to Johnson) to push right-wing propoganda now run by the ex-editor of the Daily Telegraph and staffed entirely by right-wing 'journalists'. And you expect to be taken seriously!
You vote for the fasc you get fascism.
https://bylinetimes.com/2022/12/07/red-tory-to-blue-labour-how-spiked-and-unherd-are-keeping-national-populism-alive/
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Nc.
At the end of WWII, our debt was 250% of GDP.
We then had 30 years of Keynesian stimulus policy.
We had the best generation of economic growth in our history.
We had unprecedented increases in health and living standards.
By 1973, our debt was 35% of GDP.
There is no ordained reason why we had to stagnate after the GFC. We have stagnated because we chose an utterly dreadful macroeconomic policy.
This is a useful tool. Pick a year, pick a country and see how it has improved. You can also compare it to another.
https://www.humanprogress.org/ylin/
It is for those metrics. But I have no idea what it has do with a critique on capitalism or right-wing extremists fire-bombing a police van during anti-immigration protests.
Were these anti-immigration protestors neo-liberal (capitalists) or not btw?
It started out just picking BST’s brain really, I went off topic.
Who knows? But I think they’re a set of horrible tw*ts in the same way that you do.
I agree entirely with you. But I am afraid you have missed the connections I have put down in my posts on this topic. These people got their ideas immigrants & refugees were bad from somewhere. Then you posted a piece from Unherd - whose mission is to do exactly that - encourage people to hate one another so as to create a narrative for them to hold onto power & wealth.
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Unherd!! A right-wing populist website, founded by the author of Conservative Home (and later advisor to Johnson) to push right-wing propoganda now run by the ex-editor of the Daily Telegraph and staffed entirely by right-wing 'journalists'. And you expect to be taken seriously!
You vote for the fasc you get fascism.
https://bylinetimes.com/2022/12/07/red-tory-to-blue-labour-how-spiked-and-unherd-are-keeping-national-populism-alive/
It’s a poll on the UK general public. My take on which is probably similar to yours.
Strange man.
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In a poll of the general public done by a proper polling company - only 28% say immigration is a concern.
So you work out how 28% countrywide can be a majority everywhere apart from Bristol West? It ain't that big.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/886366/issues-facing-britain/
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In a poll of the general public done by a proper polling company - only 28% say immigration is a concern.
So you work out how 28% countrywide can be a majority everywhere apart from Bristol West? It ain't that big.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/886366/issues-facing-britain/
And in the same poll only 20% believe Brexit to be a concern too .
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In a poll of the general public done by a proper polling company - only 28% say immigration is a concern.
So you work out how 28% countrywide can be a majority everywhere apart from Bristol West? It ain't that big.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/886366/issues-facing-britain/
And in the same poll only 20% believe Brexit to be a concern too .
Well aye. You got it done didn't you?
You, Johnson, Give, Rees-Mogg and Farage.
You got it done.
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At the risk of sounding like an old guy, there's something about the left-right balance of politics that young people don't get, because they have only lived in the current era. It's this.
It's not always been like this.
You have lived in an era where the Overton Window has been way over to the right. You've been told relentlessly that anything to the Left of that is a dangerous gamble and that left wing socio-economic ideas don't work.
It's not always been like that.
60 years ago, the balance was much further to the Left. And, broadly, it worked.
Thatcher brought an absolute revolutionq that tipped all that up. And like all successful revolutionaries, her side rewrote history so that everything before her now is automatically assumed to be awful.
It wasn't like that.
This person gets it.
https://twitter.com/oldtrotter/status/1629402327277862917?s=20
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''Hundreds in Tunisia protest against president’s anti-migrant clampdown''
''Hundreds of people in Tunisia’s capital took to the streets on Saturday to protest over the president’s anti-migrant clampdown''
''On Tuesday, amid wider moves against his critics, President Kais Saied accused undocumented sub-Saharan migrants of being part of a plot to change the country’s character, bringing longstanding racial tensions to the surface.
Since the president’s comments, there have been reports across social media of mob violence, with accounts of crowds storming the houses of migrants and forcibly evicting the occupants''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/25/hundreds-in-tunisia-protest-against-presidents-anti-migrant-clampdown
This has a somewhat familiar ring to it.
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At the risk of sounding like an old guy, there's something about the left-right balance of politics that young people don't get, because they have only lived in the current era. It's this.
It's not always been like this.
You have lived in an era where the Overton Window has been way over to the right. You've been told relentlessly that anything to the Left of that is a dangerous gamble and that left wing socio-economic ideas don't work.
It's not always been like that.
60 years ago, the balance was much further to the Left. And, broadly, it worked.
Thatcher brought an absolute revolutionq that tipped all that up. And like all successful revolutionaries, her side rewrote history so that everything before her now is automatically assumed to be awful.
It wasn't like that.
This person gets it.
https://twitter.com/oldtrotter/status/1629402327277862917?s=20
You could say that part of the conservative psyche is being slow to accept change. Since 1962 the average UK income (inflation adjusted) has risen by 169%. In that time, free market capitalism has enabled the biggest and fastest technological boom and increase in living standards that human history has ever seen.
Capitalism has allowed this technology to be cheaper and more affordable for poorer people around the world and has improved their lives no end. It is short sighted to just look at wealth equality. The 1968 book “The Population Bomb” predicted famine due to overpopulation. Capitalism enabling innovation has since made the prediction look ridiculous.
I understand your point, and I am not advocating for an extreme libertarianism with no government spending. Tony Blair (despite his current creepy modern authoritarian ideas) understood in the 90s that the left focused too much on how to share the pie rather than say making a bigger and better tasting one.
I think the conservatives have been to captured by their slow-to-accept-change elderly vote and this is leading to stagnation. With focusing on brexit and not building enough houses for young families. I would also remove the 2 child cap on child benefit. If we don’t get our fertility rate up we are looking at decades of economic hardship and labour shortages in the future. Especially in the face of the opposition leader wanting net zero by 2030.
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so why can't people afford to pay their energy bills, and why are wages subsidised, the flag carriers for the free-marketeers have rule for 13 years+
This is my take, politics is hard work therefore there is no requirement to reinvent the wheel, if the basics are right correct then normal service can be resumed. As long as the gov' of the day can respond to variations big or small then it doesn't have to be overcomplicated.
When government's try to square the circle and take advantage things get out of shape, you can't expect the majority to sit there and be told all is well when they see the opposite. If everyone benefits and those in need are looked after then there is no need to create turmoil and unrest to get voted in.
Why can't people afford to pay their bills? there is plenty of money around it's just in the wrong pockets.
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And right on cue we have this ................
''Rishi Sunak’s government is hiding £28bn of “stealth cuts” to public services over the next five years, according to a report warning that a renewed austerity drive at next month’s budget would further damage the economy''
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/feb/27/uk-government-is-hiding-28bn-of-stealth-cuts-to-public-services-says-report
tory ideology knows no bounds
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''Hundreds in Tunisia protest against president’s anti-migrant clampdown''
''Hundreds of people in Tunisia’s capital took to the streets on Saturday to protest over the president’s anti-migrant clampdown''
''On Tuesday, amid wider moves against his critics, President Kais Saied accused undocumented sub-Saharan migrants of being part of a plot to change the country’s character, bringing longstanding racial tensions to the surface.
Since the president’s comments, there have been reports across social media of mob violence, with accounts of crowds storming the houses of migrants and forcibly evicting the occupants''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/feb/25/hundreds-in-tunisia-protest-against-presidents-anti-migrant-clampdown
This has a somewhat familiar ring to it.
Indeed Sydney , closer to home than you might like to believe .
https://youtu.be/wBHqXkz8D9Y
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Maybe if you explain the problem in simple terms how it arose and what and how you think it should be fixed it would be a good start tyke.
You have to also take into consideration the restraints that brexit imposes on all governments going forward by those that still support brexit.
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so why can't people afford to pay their energy bills, and why are wages subsidised, the flag carriers for the free-marketeers have rule for 13 years+
This is my take, politics is hard work therefore there is no requirement to reinvent the wheel, if the basics are right correct then normal service can be resumed. As long as the gov' of the day can respond to variations big or small then it doesn't have to be overcomplicated.
When government's try to square the circle and take advantage things get out of shape, you can't expect the majority to sit there and be told all is well when they see the opposite. If everyone benefits and those in need are looked after then there is no need to create turmoil and unrest to get voted in.
Why can't people afford to pay their bills? there is plenty of money around it's just in the wrong pockets.
A valid question.
Inflation from an unstable world shocking the economy. It will come back around.
No amount of further government support can reduce the price of something as that is intrinsically tied to its value, of course.