Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: SydneyRover on December 02, 2023, 07:03:07 am
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Getting straight to the nub .......
The verdict
''The data we have leaves little doubt that resource extraction will be significantly lower for electric cars compared with their petrol or diesel equivalents as recycling increases.
And neither do the green credentials of electric cars absolve the buyers of battery minerals of responsibility for abuses in the supply chain. Dummett said he hopes the mining industy will “use this moment to reform itself”.
The detail is in the link
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/01/do-electric-cars-have-problem-mining-for-minerals
Increased participation with good quality and cheap public transport would help help us get to a safer planet sooner.
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I’ve just got a full electric, twin motor Volvo C40. Lovely motor.
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Likewise with a polestar. But I'm under no illusions I'm doing anything for the environment. The cars made in China and while the UK may hit low emissions targets its because we don't build anything, the emissions from producing have been outsourced. Those emissions are sometimes added to some calculations as indirect or "scope 3" emissions but not usually. We don't manufacture much but the once skilled folk who produced things can look out to sea at nice windmills on the way to the dole office now all in the name of the environment
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Likewise with a polestar. But I'm under no illusions I'm doing anything for the environment. The cars made in China and while the UK may hit low emissions targets its because we don't build anything, the emissions from producing have been outsourced. Those emissions are sometimes added to some calculations as indirect or "scope 3" emissions but not usually. We don't manufacture much but the once skilled folk who produced things can look out to sea at nice windmills on the way to the dole office now all in the name of the environment
Therefore the same claim could be made for ice cars, no? and as EVs will be less destructive to the environment (from the link) you are assisting said environment.
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The extra contamination in the build of electric cars means that they have to do over 77,000 miles before they level up on the emissions of an ice car according to a report in the USA yesterday.
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Read the link I posted selby ............ and then post your link
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Whilst this topic is regarding ev and the environment, it’s worth considering the power usage for Charging across the entire network also.
I have a friend who has been raving about his Tesla and the supercharger network. I did a bit of research on them and their power usage. An average home uses around 1.2 kw per hour. Tesla are about to bring out a 350 kWh supercharger. So on full charge that’s the equivalent power usage of around 290 average homes. Put a bank of six together and that’s around the equivalent power draw of 1750 homes. Multiply that by the supercharger network (1100 in uk currently) and you are into the equivalent of 2 million homes. Now overlay this with the backdrop that the national grid already have a system in place for blackout prevention, where they are paying people not to use electricity during peak times, and you get an idea where we are going with this.
And this is just Tesla super chargers.
And whilst I appreciate not all super chargers are in use all day every day, you get the idea. We are going from gas guzzlers to power guzzlers.
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Buses and trucks are large power users NR, those driving superchargers will as now be in the minority.
Here's an article about community batteries
https://energypost.eu/community-batteries-when-theyre-the-best-option-for-overcoming-grid-constraints-and-when-theyre-not/
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Got a full electric and a plug in hybrid. Still not convinced on a full electric for long journeys until the range improves. Driving wise no real faults at all.
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Likewise with a polestar. But I'm under no illusions I'm doing anything for the environment. The cars made in China and while the UK may hit low emissions targets its because we don't build anything, the emissions from producing have been outsourced. Those emissions are sometimes added to some calculations as indirect or "scope 3" emissions but not usually. We don't manufacture much but the once skilled folk who produced things can look out to sea at nice windmills on the way to the dole office now all in the name of the environment
Therefore the same claim could be made for ice cars, no? and as EVs will be less destructive to the environment (from the link) you are assisting said environment.
Indeed you are correct, at least with an EV you're not putting emissions in your local environment. Added to that if you can source the electric via renewable then its win win. My point was mainly the production has been shifted to the other side of the world, so net net while the UK might hit emissions targets, globally there's still a lot to do.
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And .....
''Air Pollution Kills Millions Every Year: Action Needed''
https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/09/07/air-pollution-kills-millions-every-year-action-needed#:~:text=An%20estimated%20seven%20million%20people,are%20every%20bit%20as%20real.
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I've got a BMW ix3, I hate it. It's dull, uncomfortable to drive and the range is terrible.
Says something when I'd rather go in my van to Peterborough than that pile of shite.
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Begs the question, why do you have a bmw 1x3?
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Begs the question, why do you have a bmw 1x3?
The wife got it through NHS salary sacrifice. It's going back soon.
Think I might get 5.5 Mustang next.
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Tesla model Y battery.
To manufacture it you need:
--12 tons of rock for Lithium (can also be
extracted from sea water)
-- 5 tons of cobalt minerals (Most cobalt is made
as a byproduct of the processing of copper
and nickel ores. It is the most difficult material
to obtain for a battery and the most
expensive.)
-- 3 tons nickel ore
-- 12 tons of copper ore
You must move 250 tons of soil to obtain:
-- 26.5 pounds of Lithium
-- 30 pounds of nickel
-- 48.5 pounds of manganese
-- 15 pounds of cobalt
To manufacture the battery also requires:
-- 441 pounds of aluminum, steel and/or plastic
-- 112 pounds of graphite
The Caterpillar 994A is used for the earthmoving to obtain the essential minerals. It consumes 264 gallons of diesel in 12 hours.
Finally you get a “zero emissions” car.
Presently, the bulk of the necessary minerals for manufacturing the batteries come from China or Africa. Much of the labor for getting the minerals in Africa is done by children! If we buy electric cars, it's China who profits most!
BTW, a 2021 Tesla Model Y OEM battery (the cheapest Tesla battery) is currently for sale on the Internet for $4,999 not including shipping or installation. The battery weighs 1,000 pounds (you can imagine the shipping cost). The cost of Tesla batteries is:
Model 3 -- $14,000+ (Car MSRP $38,990)
Model Y -- $5,000–$5,500 (Car MSRP $47,740)
Model S -- $13,000–$20,000 (Car MSRP $74,990)
Model X -- $13,000+ (Car MSRP $79,990)
It takes SEVEN years for an electric car to reach net-zero CO2. The life expectancy of the batteries is 10 years (average). Only in the last three years do you begin to reduce your carbon footprint. Then the batteries have to be replaced and you lose all the gains you made in those three years.
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NR, the whole point of the link in my first post was to compare EVs to ICE vehicles, therefore if you are putting figures up for mining of required minerals they should be compare to the mining of minerals and oil and what lies in the future.
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Colbolt is also needed to refine petrol and diesel people seem to forget that fact
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The next generation of batteries will replace the expensive minerals in Lithium Iron batteries, and the price at sale will fall as a result.
You also need to consider that high value input materials have potential re-use as a feedstock in future years.
Even if battery chemistry remained the same (and it will not), the elements recycled will displace use of virgin sources on cost grounds.
The new battery chemistry is being introduced in China as we speak, and will become the dominant force in the near future.
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60% of electricity generation on December 2nd 2023 came from fossil fuels (Mostly gas and then 3% coal).
12% is coming from mainland Europe with most of that from France who are sensibly powered by mostly nuclear.
We will not be able to power everybody’s electric cars and heat pumps in the near net-zero future.
We need to build more nuclear.
https://x.com/thesnowdreamer/status/1730966536582476248?s=46
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Just have to sort out a few teething problems is all nc
''Sellafield nuclear site hacked by groups linked to Russia and China
Exclusive: Malware may still be present and potential effects have been covered up by staff, investigation reveals
‘Bottomless pit of hell, money and despair’ at Europe’s most toxic nuclear site''
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/04/sellafield-nuclear-site-hacked-groups-russia-china
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Sorry ncRover, but the comments you posted above in 18 are way off the mark.
You cannot use a single day as a reference point.
The data is annualised specifically to avoid that, and to give a full year round picture.
The UK has always imported electricity from the continent in recent years.
This is a good thing when it makes the whole system more resilient, and the European supergrid project means that cross border transmission will increase to provide greater energy security.
France has an elderley nuclear fleet, 50% out of commission due to unplanned downtime last winter.
They are in a better position than the UK in that home heating is more electrified, but vulnerable because of over dependence on an expensive single technology.
That technology is obsolete and financially unviable unless bankrolled by a state funding support.
When you advocate new nuclear, no venture capital will touch it, so the public sector would need to heavily subsidise it.
It is also a rising cost sector, while wind and solar are reducing in cost each year.
The levelised cost of energy shows each unit produced by nuclear is between 5x and 9x more expensive than using real renewables like wind and solar.
This needs to be considered as the lead time for new nuclear is 15 to 20 years, so that differential will widen.
Hinckley C is years behind schedule, and massively over budget, and the industry has an appalling record on project delivery to specification.
If you believe that there will be a supply crisis, you would need to explain your workings on the energy efficiency assumptions.
After all, efficiency is rising alongside supply side innovations. Those reforms run beside demand side measures that look to smooth peak hour spikes in consumer demand.
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Just have to sort out a few teething problems is all nc
''Sellafield nuclear site hacked by groups linked to Russia and China
Exclusive: Malware may still be present and potential effects have been covered up by staff, investigation reveals
‘Bottomless pit of hell, money and despair’ at Europe’s most toxic nuclear site''
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/04/sellafield-nuclear-site-hacked-groups-russia-china
The Guardian is your drip feed of opinion isn’t it ? Try being a bit more open minded
There are no solutions, only trade offs
Nuclear is no less safe whilst being more reliable, energy and space efficient and ultimately ends up with less co2 emissions than wind.
If we are in a climate catastrophe as you/the guardian say then a bit of nuclear waste is worth it. And the technology is always improving
France generates 70% of its electricity from nuclear. We’ll see the trajectories our economies take
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Albie you have conveniently glossed over the fact that wind and solar has been and is heavily subsidised by the UK government
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Just have to sort out a few teething problems is all nc
''Sellafield nuclear site hacked by groups linked to Russia and China
Exclusive: Malware may still be present and potential effects have been covered up by staff, investigation reveals
‘Bottomless pit of hell, money and despair’ at Europe’s most toxic nuclear site''
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/04/sellafield-nuclear-site-hacked-groups-russia-china
The Guardian is your drip feed of opinion isn’t it ? Try being a bit more open minded
There are no solutions, only trade offs
Nuclear is no less safe whilst being more reliable, energy and space efficient and ultimately ends up with less co2 emissions than wind.
If we are in a climate catastrophe as you/the guardian say then a bit of nuclear waste is worth it. And the technology is always improving
France generates 70% of its electricity from nuclear. We’ll see the trajectories our economies take
Show what is incorrect in the guardian which would show maturity nc
List of nuclear power accidents by country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_power_accidents_by_country
Have you ever worked in a nuclear plant or lived close to one?
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Just have to sort out a few teething problems is all nc
''Sellafield nuclear site hacked by groups linked to Russia and China
Exclusive: Malware may still be present and potential effects have been covered up by staff, investigation reveals
‘Bottomless pit of hell, money and despair’ at Europe’s most toxic nuclear site''
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/04/sellafield-nuclear-site-hacked-groups-russia-china
The Guardian is your drip feed of opinion isn’t it ? Try being a bit more open minded
There are no solutions, only trade offs
Nuclear is no less safe whilst being more reliable, energy and space efficient and ultimately ends up with less co2 emissions than wind.
If we are in a climate catastrophe as you/the guardian say then a bit of nuclear waste is worth it. And the technology is always improving
France generates 70% of its electricity from nuclear. We’ll see the trajectories our economies take
Show what is incorrect in the guardian which would show maturity nc
List of nuclear power accidents by country
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_power_accidents_by_country
Have you ever worked in a nuclear plant or lived close to one?
https://ourworldindata.org/safest-sources-of-energy
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Does the article address all the nuclear accidents around the world nc? if it doesn't then it's a crock.
Besides that as shown in the Ukraine nuclear plants are targets and are on all the maps. Neighbourhood grids powered by solar are the future.
I'll ask again have you worked or lived near a nuclear plant?
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This site gives the full picture using facts and data, not a singular article from an agenda driven Guardian.
Death rates per unit of electricity production
Coal 24.62
Biomass 4.63
Gas 2.82
Hydro 1.3
Wind 0.04
Nuclear 0.03
Solar 0.02
Wind and solar needs back up. That is currently in the form of fossil fuels.
Nuclear is reliable and can go in all weather conditions, therefore doesn’t need the same amount of dangerous back up.
So overall safer.
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Would you go swimming where the Japanese are releasing contaminated water or want to eat the seafood from there, or live/work at or in Chernobyl?
This is Australia's very small nuclear facility safety report mainly medical and extremely important but it still has accidents.
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.parliament.nsw.gov.au/lcdocs/other/12984/Mr%20Ryan%20Hemsley%20-%20ARPANSA%20-%20AQoNs%20-%2011%20November%202019.pdf
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Sydney
Chernobyl was a communism problem. Fukushima was from a tsunami as a result of a m9.0 earthquake from a slip strike between the Eurasian and pacific tectonic plates. This is not relevant to the UK.
1 person died 4 years later from Fukushima radiation. The earthquake killed 20,000. Following your precautionary principle we should evacuate Japan due to it lying on a fault line?
I’ve proven that nuclear has the best safety record for humans so you’ve decided to scrape the barrel and move on to wildlife.
Ok.
Wind farms require 360 times the land area and solar farms 75 times to match the output of a nuclear power station. That’s a lot of habitat loss. Up to 100,000 birds are killed by wind turbines each year in the UK, but I’m not calling for them to be torn down.
Also I used to live within a mile or so of Drax so yes I would live next to a nuclear if I had to because as the data shows, it would have been safer.
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But you don't want to work or live near a nuclear plant? It's safe for someone else to take the risk.
My brother worked at Sellafield for about a year and came home with more than he went with.
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As a kid living in Rossington, I remember walking to school in a morning and seeing everything covered with a thin layer of coal dust. Looking back it was absolutely disgusting and that, along with the traffic pissing out god knows how much poison, must have contributed to health problems for many people.
The only problem that I have with electric vehicles is that you can't hear the buggers when you're crossing the road!
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But you don't want to work or live near a nuclear plant? It's safe for someone else to take the risk.
My brother worked at Sellafield for about a year and came home with more than he went with.
That might have been down to Sellafield Sue.
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I saw a Vw golf E the other day. It was alight at the roadside having internally combusted. It was during that little winter spell last Sunday. All the snow around and under it had melted. They do have their uses.
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I saw a Vw golf E the other day. It was alight at the roadside having internally combusted. It was during that little winter spell last Sunday. All the snow around and under it had melted. They do have their uses.
It sounds like you are being drip fed from the oil and big car companies nr.
''Oil industry is ‘peddling misinformation’ about electric vehicles''
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/26/electric-vehicles-will-prevail-despite-oil-industry-misinformation.html
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I saw a Vw golf E the other day. It was alight at the roadside having internally combusted. It was during that little winter spell last Sunday. All the snow around and under it had melted. They do have their uses.
It sounds like you are being drip fed from the oil and big car companies nr.
''Oil industry is ‘peddling misinformation’ about electric vehicles''
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/26/electric-vehicles-will-prevail-despite-oil-industry-misinformation.html
Nope. I have no doubt that electric vehicle will become mainstream at some point . Personally I won’t go near one until such time as they are affordable and more practical range wise for me . My daily Commute is a 9 year old VW up that cost me 5 grand 2 yrs ago and is bought and paid for. It does over 400 mile to a tank and is very reliable. The VW ev equivalent is 30 grand .
I can’t and won’t justify buying an EV. Yet.
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Albie you have conveniently glossed over the fact that wind and solar has been and is heavily subsidised by the UK government
No, ncRover, I have not forgotten subsidies.
Nuclear is 100% subsidised, because the unknown future costs of decommissioning are retained by the public purse.
This is in addition to massive Capex support for construction, because private sector investors will not touch nuclear without guaranteed rates of return.
You might have seen this report from Sellafield of the repository leaks from radioactive material:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/05/sellafield-nuclear-site-leak-could-pose-risk-to-public
There are no valid economic reasons for new UK nuclear developments.
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If you don't have access to a home charger it is now more expensive to run an EV than petrol or diesel.
The government have also found a nice little earner charging 20% vat on fast charging points and 5% on others which comes in handy.
Estimated costs per mile now come in 14p to 16p for diesel 16p to 18p Petrol 19p to 22p EV plus the premium on purchase and the expected increase in insurance premiums for EV's and they are going to have to have one almighty sales pitch for them to become the go to vehicle for anyone but fleet owners, and when the residual prices hit home they will drop out of the market pretty quickly.
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You wouldn't get one and not charge at home though would you? I do agree they're too advantageous for company drivers. Eg you can supply free charging to employees with no tax, but provide fuel and it's a benefit. They'll hit that eventually.
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Not everyone has the facility to be able to charge an EV at home so that in itself prevents a big proportion of the public getting one.
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Selby,
I don't know where you are getting this information from, but it is misleading.
Sales of EV are rising rapidly, and displacing ICE going forwards.
The biggest car markets in Europe have made significant progress since 2019.
Between 2019 and 2023, the EV share of sales has increased:
● From 2.8% to 25% in France.
● From 2.2% to 24% in the UK.
● From 3% to 22% in Germany.
Nordic countries are much higher, having adopted EV much earlier.
As volumes increase, purchase costs are falling to parity in mid market models.
This is a one way street of exponential growth, and ICE will fall off a cliff after 2025.
Chinese production for export is the next breaking moment, because the manufacturers in Europe have been too slow to adapt to the new market.
Where do you get the idea insurance premiums will increase for EV, but not for ICE?
Exactly the opposite I would think, if the safety profile of an EV exceeds the legacy ICE.
Once folk have an EV, then solar on the roof becomes more attractive, and your leccy company will install a home charger.
The savvy will use the least cost recharging option. Those without those options will charge at a charging station, which will compete on price, a bit like petrol stations do now.
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I wonder how many electic car owners were sweating on Saturday after the pile uo on the A1 North of Blyth, the traffic was in a constant very slow crawl, no chance to turn the leccy off
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I wonder how many electic car owners were sweating on Saturday after the pile uo on the A1 North of Blyth, the traffic was in a constant very slow crawl, no chance to turn the leccy off
Probably plenty banging the heating up, you get really strong miles per kWh at slow pace and no emissions either.....
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Novembers total sales are up year on year because entirely due to fleet sales, the private sales are down 9% year on year for November.
Companies get brownie points and tax advantages, the private buyer cannot afford the premium of pricing, or the massive value drop on purchase, installation costs of chargers if their property is compatible, and now the cost of quick charging while travelling, not to mention the lack of charging points.
It will be interesting to see how the market goes.
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Albie you have conveniently glossed over the fact that wind and solar has been and is heavily subsidised by the UK government
No, ncRover, I have not forgotten subsidies.
Nuclear is 100% subsidised, because the unknown future costs of decommissioning are retained by the public purse.
This is in addition to massive Capex support for construction, because private sector investors will not touch nuclear without guaranteed rates of return.
You might have seen this report from Sellafield of the repository leaks from radioactive material:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/dec/05/sellafield-nuclear-site-leak-could-pose-risk-to-public
There are no valid economic reasons for new UK nuclear developments.
The economic reason may not be there just now but what happens when fossil fuel has been priced out of the equation throughout Europe.
As a Northern European country of a certain size can we proceed forward relying on current and expected renewables only? will capture and storage capacity, cost,and infrastructure be in place to take over?
If the economic argument is not there what about the strategic requirements for National Security?
Seems like a great many considerations that need to be of a proven certainty have not yet been formalised to the extent that we will be seeing fossil fuel and ICE cars for a great deal longer yet.
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I wonder how many electic car owners were sweating on Saturday after the pile uo on the A1 North of Blyth, the traffic was in a constant very slow crawl, no chance to turn the leccy off
Probably plenty banging the heating up, you get really strong miles per kWh at slow pace and no emissions either.....
Yep, damn that regeneration that the anti-EV brigade don't know about, Eh BFYP.
I get my BMW i4 in about a month.
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I wonder how many electic car owners were sweating on Saturday after the pile uo on the A1 North of Blyth, the traffic was in a constant very slow crawl, no chance to turn the leccy off
Probably plenty banging the heating up, you get really strong miles per kWh at slow pace and no emissions either.....
Yep, damn that regeneration that the anti-EV brigade don't know about, Eh BFYP.
I get my BMW i4 in about a month.
Looked at that Rob, went for the IX in the end, loving it
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Danum Don,
Yes, the UK can support its energy needs from renewables.
Here is the summary of a recent report from Oxford University;
https://www.smithschool.ox.ac.uk/sites/default/files/2023-09/Policy-brief-Britains-energy-demand-could-be-met-entirely-by-wind-and-solar.pdf
Much cheaper and very much quicker than relying on future nuclear, which has a long project delivery timeline.
Hinkley have just posted further delay to completion and even more cost escalation, with a row about who carries the can.
https://www.ft.com/content/2bccd67f-a3c6-48d1-baa5-8ef9d54cdf67
The Chinese are out of the running for the proposed Sizewell reactor, leaving the UK government and EDF(owned by the French government) arguing about who will pick up the bill for the capital expenditure. In the long run, consumers will be expected to pay, by giving a guaranteed rate of return to the developers.
With regard to energy security, I would think that large centralised facilities are the most vulnerable.
Think about Zap in Ukraine, or the downtime of over 50% the French suffered last year.
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Can anybody explain to me why Hydro is more or less completely ignored in this country as a large source of generating power.
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Press release Published
14 December 2023
Major boost for hydrogen as UK unlocks new investment and jobs
Eleven new production projects helping to place UK at forefront of hydrogen industry and bring progress towards net zero ambitions.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/major-boost-for-hydrogen-as-uk-unlocks-new-investment-and-jobs#:~:text=Today's%20announcement%20represents%20the%20largest,England%20to%20Cromarty%20in%20Scotland.
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Often wondered about that the River Don could generate a great deal using culverts like Tesladid in Serbia 125 years ago!
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I have seen it work well in small villages in Wales near Devils Bridge area Where the villagers are fed electric from turbines in small rivers, and there used to be one fed into the grid in the river Aire near Rothwell but very few as far as I know.
Is it economy of scale, or the fact that big generators don't want the spread of small independent cooperative's springing up.
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Just remember whatever you drive, more roads lead to more congestion, but I guess there will be less pollution. Induced Demand is what drives it, so to speak.
This article from 2015 explains it and incidentally the new section of westconnex in Sydney opened a few weeks ago and made traffic immediately worse. We campaigned for years to stop it and build more PT, at a cost of over $4bn and climbing. We told the government at the beginning.
https://theconversation.com/do-more-roads-really-mean-less-congestion-for-commuters-39508#:~:text=Induced%20demand&text=If%20a%20new%20road%20makes,after%20that%3B%20and%20so%20on.
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So the Australian Government don't listen to you either then Syd,
Probably just dumped the letter on the pile with the rest.
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You could say it was as effective as you advising drfc, for how long, and look where we are aye?
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You could say it was as effective as you advising drfc, for how long, and look where we are aye?
Syd maybe if you start spunking over Faulkner and Selby starts on congestion things may change ;) Merry Christmas to you both
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Interesting.....
https://qz.com/chicago-evs-tesla-cold-weather-battery-performance-1851172536
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Definitely takes longer to charge in the cold for sure. Not really sure it's news.
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Some real news:
https://news.mit.edu/2024/cobalt-free-batteries-could-power-future-cars-0118
So farewell then, cobalt.
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£180 flat rate road tax for all existing EVs from 1apr 2025.
Meanwhile low emission petrol and diesel cars currently on band A will move to band B and pay just £20.
Oh, and if you have deep pockets and fork out over 40k for one, you will pay an extra £355 per year for five years as an extra supplement. Adding over £1700 to the price of running it.
There must be an incentive to buy an EV in there somewhere?
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£180 flat rate road tax for all existing EVs from 1apr 2025.
Meanwhile low emission petrol and diesel cars currently on band A will move to band B and pay just £20.
Oh, and if you have deep pockets and fork out over 40k for one, you will pay an extra £355 per year for five years as an extra supplement. Adding over £1700 to the price of running it.
There must be an incentive to buy an EV in there somewhere?
Majority of people who are driving an EV are doing so because there's either a rather large tax advantage or they are able to charge extremely cheaply, or in most cases both.
Its cheaper. I think its a bit of a myth that anyone are doing it because it's greener
Wait til the cheap Chinese cars start flooding in next year then you'll see even more on the roads :lol:
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£180 flat rate road tax for all existing EVs from 1apr 2025.
Meanwhile low emission petrol and diesel cars currently on band A will move to band B and pay just £20.
Oh, and if you have deep pockets and fork out over 40k for one, you will pay an extra £355 per year for five years as an extra supplement. Adding over £1700 to the price of running it.
There must be an incentive to buy an EV in there somewhere?
Majority of people who are driving an EV are doing so because there's either a rather large tax advantage or they are able to charge extremely cheaply, or in most cases both.
Its cheaper. I think its a bit of a myth that anyone are doing it because it's greener
Wait til the cheap Chinese cars start flooding in next year then you'll see even more on the roads :lol:
This 100%, I got massive incentives through the work lease scheme, scarily cheap. Nothing to do with wanting a ‘green’ car just plain old best value
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Likewise, super cheap. The irony being of course under the lease model in 3 years everyone will move to another new car, then another. Contributing greatly to global emissions.
The myth of net zero. Like shutting a steel furnace to make our emissions look low then just importing :thumbsup:
If we just build nothing in this country, stick everyone on the dole, we're net zero :thumbsup: (forget the outsourced construction and transportation emissions of imports)
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£180 flat rate road tax for all existing EVs from 1apr 2025.
Meanwhile low emission petrol and diesel cars currently on band A will move to band B and pay just £20.
Oh, and if you have deep pockets and fork out over 40k for one, you will pay an extra £355 per year for five years as an extra supplement. Adding over £1700 to the price of running it.
There must be an incentive to buy an EV in there somewhere?
That extra £355 for cars over £40k has been around for a few years NR.
I’m not sure from your post whether you knew that.
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That kind of is the point.
EVs SHOULD be cheaper than ICE cars as a whole life product cost, because they do far less damage to the planet. So, sensible Govt policy should make damn sure that on finances, EVs are a no brainer.
Because, much as the rabid right wants to have a Lib demon to bait and hate, people aren't really that different. Make the right thing cheaper than the wrong thing and most people will do the right thing. Make the right thing more expensive and the vast majority across the spectrum will not.
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That kind of is the point.
EVs SHOULD be cheaper than ICE cars as a whole life product cost, because they do far less damage to the planet. So, sensible Govt policy should make damn sure that on finances, EVs are a no brainer.
Because, much as the rabid right wants to have a Lib demon to bait and hate, people aren't really that different. Make the right thing cheaper than the wrong thing and most people will do the right thing. Make the right thing more expensive and the vast majority across the spectrum will not.
I’d be interested in some examples of “whole life product cost”. They don’t seem to advertise them down the local car dealership. I wonder why?
We were talking about it recently in our office. One of the girls I work with has an 30 old car that has done 400 thousand miles. She uses it daily. I wonder how the carbon/ green footprint of this car would compare to an ev who max life expectancy would be 10 years? At most. Cost, can of course be judged in realms of fuel cost and environment cost.
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NR,
The answer to your question about whole lifecycle costs depends upon where you are.
Costs being not just running costs, but the relevant taxation regime also all carbon costs and who pays them.
You need to know where the vehicle was made, and the carbon intensity of the inputs into the manufacturing process.
Was it made using renewable electricity or not?
Carbon Brief did a summary of these myths being misrepresented about the EV transition here;
https://www.carbonbrief.org/factcheck-21-misleading-myths-about-electric-vehicles/
It might be useful!
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For those forum member with an EV or plug in hybrid, what charger would you recommend for home?
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That kind of is the point.
EVs SHOULD be cheaper than ICE cars as a whole life product cost, because they do far less damage to the planet. So, sensible Govt policy should make damn sure that on finances, EVs are a no brainer.
Because, much as the rabid right wants to have a Lib demon to bait and hate, people aren't really that different. Make the right thing cheaper than the wrong thing and most people will do the right thing. Make the right thing more expensive and the vast majority across the spectrum will not.
Good point, but wonder should government policy be directed at subsiding mass transport rather than subsidising individual cars.
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For those forum member with an EV or plug in hybrid, what charger would you recommend for home?
I've got a myenergi Zappi and been happy with it. Does exactly what I need it to do - integrates well enough with my solar to dump excess generated power into the grid over summer, allows me to schedule charging for over night when the rates are cheaper in winter.
Reply #105 on this thread goes into a bit more detail about the solar charging.
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=286878.90
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Regardless of green issues, I can't get beyond the fact that if I wanted to do Wrexham away, let's say 250 mile roundnl trip, unless I could guarantee a charger when I got there,
I'd be sweating on range.. when my current low emission diesel does a 1000 to a tank.. and cost under 10k , not 50k!!
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For those forum member with an EV or plug in hybrid, what charger would you recommend for home?
I've got a pod point, can't grumble at all. Cable in and off we go.
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I’ve owned my current runaround for 4 years. I’ve done 50000 miles in it. It cost me 5 grand. Bought and paid for. No finance etc.
so pence per mile, so far, for sheer ownership is 10p. It’s easily averages 50mpg, probably nearer 60 in truth, but I’ll be very conservative here. So those 50000 miles have used 1000 gallons of fuel, or at around an average of £1.40 a litre, that’s around £4500 on fuel. Or 9 pence a mile.
So for the last 4 years, ownership and fuel have cost me 19p per mile. Added to that would be mot , insurance tax and servicing (I do my own).
Three mot at £40, two tyres at £120, insurance around £250/ year and servicing cost of around £200. Total £1100. Over 50000 miles that’s around 2p per mile. Total 21p per mile.
I’d be interested in a similar breakdown for 50000 miles in an EV.
A 50k ev is £1 per mile for pure ownership. Ten times that of my small ICE runaround. And let’s be honest, not many people go out and buy an ev outright. So the ownership costs with pcp/ finance will be higher.
I have a colleague who has a Tesla 3. She is late 40’s, clean licence, full no claims. Her insurance is over £1000 a year. She lives in a rural low risk area. Here’s a stat they won’t tell you down the local ev dealership, claims for EVs are 25.5% more expensive compared with their internal combustion engine equivalents. EVs are also taking 14% longer to repair which is impacting premiums.
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Depends on your circumstances NR. Quite simple for company car drivers, EVs are thousands cheaper.
On a corporate insurance policy same price to the company ev or not.
I don't think anyone sensible would privately take on an EV surely? I only know one person who has and he's had his about 7 years. Worth noting a new EV doesn't even need servicing so you can discount that.
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BFYP, that market will reduce Hertz have cancelled 20,000 Tesla cars as the residual second hand market is not there for EVs in the USA. and that will impact the private market in a couple of years.
Disposal of spent batteries is a problem for the near future and the private sales market is reducing rapidly, down 9% for the October/November period year on year figures.
In a fullish Doncaster Council car park in Waterdale at the rear of the council offices this lunch time all EV parking spaces were empty after dropping my car off at the main dealers on Wheatley Hall Road for a first service in a completely empty of customers looking at new cars sales front with a showroom full of EV's.
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Depends on your circumstances NR. Quite simple for company car drivers, EVs are thousands cheaper.
On a corporate insurance policy same price to the company ev or not.
I don't think anyone sensible would privately take on an EV surely? I only know one person who has and he's had his about 7 years. Worth noting a new EV doesn't even need servicing so you can discount that.
BFYP, genuine question. You seemed to be an endorser for EVs so why do you think they don't make sense to currently own one personally? As a user of a company EV, what would put you off owning one privately. Wouldn't it depend on individual circumstances?
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Depends on your circumstances NR. Quite simple for company car drivers, EVs are thousands cheaper.
On a corporate insurance policy same price to the company ev or not.
I don't think anyone sensible would privately take on an EV surely? I only know one person who has and he's had his about 7 years. Worth noting a new EV doesn't even need servicing so you can discount that.
BFYP, genuine question. You seemed to be an endorser for EVs so why do you think they don't make sense to currently own one personally? As a user of a company EV, what would put you off owning one privately. Wouldn't it depend on individual circumstances?
Cost essentially. I'm not going to go and spend £35k+ on a new car EV, petrol or diesel for little recourse. If the second hand market becomes sensible I'd absolutely advocate one privately. Great to drive, mostly easy to maintain, easy to charge and cheaper to run than a petrol/diesel.
But I just feel the depreciation on the new vehicles is way too high, far higher than on a non EV. The company car tax on an EV is tiny (about £23 a month for a 40% tax payer) so it's a bargain. If I could accept that as depreciation or lease value I would, but for an EV, no chance.
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Depends on your circumstances NR. Quite simple for company car drivers, EVs are thousands cheaper.
On a corporate insurance policy same price to the company ev or not.
I don't think anyone sensible would privately take on an EV surely? I only know one person who has and he's had his about 7 years. Worth noting a new EV doesn't even need servicing so you can discount that.
I think you will find ev’s most definitely need servicing .
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Depends on your circumstances NR. Quite simple for company car drivers, EVs are thousands cheaper.
On a corporate insurance policy same price to the company ev or not.
I don't think anyone sensible would privately take on an EV surely? I only know one person who has and he's had his about 7 years. Worth noting a new EV doesn't even need servicing so you can discount that.
BFYP, genuine question. You seemed to be an endorser for EVs so why do you think they don't make sense to currently own one personally? As a user of a company EV, what would put you off owning one privately. Wouldn't it depend on individual circumstances?
Cost essentially. I'm not going to go and spend £35k+ on a new car EV, petrol or diesel for little recourse. If the second hand market becomes sensible I'd absolutely advocate one privately. Great to drive, mostly easy to maintain, easy to charge and cheaper to run than a petrol/diesel.
But I just feel the depreciation on the new vehicles is way too high, far higher than on a non EV. The company car tax on an EV is tiny (about £23 a month for a 40% tax payer) so it's a bargain. If I could accept that as depreciation or lease value I would, but for an EV, no chance.
Thanks for that and agree in the main, just wondered if there was any other reason. Also feels like it's still relatively fast moving technology wise. So in a very short space of time, the current EVs could be the equivalent of a crank up ICE car.
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How long before a battery change is required and how much £?
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Batteries should outlive the expected life of the car in normal use.
After being recovered from the vehicle, they can then have a second life as stationary storage capacity, like in the Tesla Powerwall domestic units.
Beyond that, they will be recycled for materials.....big money going into this sector right now.
It is a bit disappointing to see folk piping up with so many discredited myths on this.
Read the link I posted from Carbon Brief in reply 65 to get a good understanding of these issues....a lot of misinformation gets trotted out in the media.
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For those forum member with an EV or plug in hybrid, what charger would you recommend for home?
I've got a pod point, can't grumble at all. Cable in and off we go.
I’ve got the same.
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A great video by a motoring journalist / youtuber who actually knows his stuff about cars. Not just a tw*t who thinks a car is great because it goes 0-60 reyt fast.
He's on about all that's wrong with EVs, even as an EV owner myself I agree with most. There's some positives that he's missed out. But it does go into the question of what are we doing with EVs? Building cars that are actually better for the environment or building 3 tonne massive things that have 800bhp, and are all on a lease so will be on the scrapper in about 5 yrs. Just so we can turn around and say we're "net zero". Again, conveniently ignore the fact it's built in China and shipped across the world with a whopping carbon footprint
https://youtu.be/nZysvgm2_Aw?feature=shared
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Chap pulled into Chatsworth CMC site in electric towing a smaller lightweight caravan. Thete is no prior warning but Chatsworth don't allow electrics to be recharged on site. Next morning he vanished leaving his wife at the caravan, I guess he'd gone looking for a recharge point, few and far between around that part of The Peaks. We left at lunchtime and he still hadn't returned
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https://youtu.be/nZysvgm2_Aw?si=eANrczuZ3baq4AV2
The latest Harry's Garage is an interesting watch. He explains why he's given up on electric and bought a diesel range rover.
Beyond that he gives opinions on the second hand market for EVs and what needs to happen to make EVs more widely popular. He's by no means an EV sceptic.
I think he makes good points about battery life and the efficiency of EVs.
Edit: ooops didn't notice the link is already posted. Worth a watch though.
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Who puts £20,000 deposit on a car?
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New data from SMMT out shows an increase in EV volumes since 2019 of 900% growth;
https://nitter.mint.lgbt/pic/orig/media%2FGGSrgWrXUAE6jBL.png
I thought some might be interested in the latest information.
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New data from SMMT out shows an increase in EV volumes since 2019 of 900% growth;
https://nitter.mint.lgbt/pic/orig/media%2FGGSrgWrXUAE6jBL.png
I thought some might be interested in the latest information.
900% does sound like huge growth but it is over quite a long period.
BEV sales still represent fewer than 20% of new car sales annually in the UK. And most of that figure is from fleet sales, which attract the tax breaks.
The take up of BEV amongst private buyers is still low.
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Yes RD, but the rate of growth is rising on an exponential curve.
BEV is now at 21% of new sales, driven as you say by fleets taking advantage of the tax position.
Fleet sales up 29.9% year to year.
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Does that 21% include hybrids? Was it for 2023?
The last figure I saw was 16.5% of new registrations for 2023. That was in a newspaper article, I suppose figures vary.
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I don't know if anyone mentioned it but, isn't the real issue here about making public transport unavoidably the best option? Many ways to do that, tho obviously not selfishly Thatcherite enough for some. And your Clarkson wannabees will be sulking at the thought. But, this is the future.
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RD,
The SMMT produce data updated every month;
https://www.smmt.co.uk/vehicle-data/evs-and-afvs-registrations/
I would not rely on newspaper reports rather than the actual data.
BRR,
Quite right.
Public transport will also electrify, which will reduce air pollution in urban areas.
The interesting point here is that if bus operators have no petrol/diesel bill, and can produce their own leccy, then the scope for fare reductions is clear.
Whether private operators will pass that cost saving to passengers is a different question.
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Yes, interesting that it's such a big discrepancy but I'm happy to accept that figure of 21%
I wonder if the figure I saw was the previous year reported incorrectly... I might have read it in the Mail, it's the in-house newspaper of the residents in the retirement living building where my Mum is. There is often a copy in the communal lounge.
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I don't know if anyone mentioned it but, isn't the real issue here about making public transport unavoidably the best option? Many ways to do that, tho obviously not selfishly Thatcherite enough for some. And your Clarkson wannabees will be sulking at the thought. But, this is the future.
I agree but getting people out of their cars will be a devil of a job. Particularly now we have a government that has cancelled it's forward looking electric rail project and is now looking to invest more in roads... In the south.
I have to make a regular journey to that place south of Coventry. London, I think it's called. I ended up going down by car, much cheaper than the train. We stayed outside the ulez and intended to travel in by train but again for three of us, paying the ulez was much cheaper. I have a turbo diesel which was actually being encouraged when I bought it. No tax to pay even now.
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I don't know if anyone mentioned it but, isn't the real issue here about making public transport unavoidably the best option? Many ways to do that, tho obviously not selfishly Thatcherite enough for some. And your Clarkson wannabees will be sulking at the thought. But, this is the future.
Problem with that is much of our employment areas (particularly in Doncaster) are well outside of public transport areas and far too inaccessible.
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I don't know if anyone mentioned it but, isn't the real issue here about making public transport unavoidably the best option? Many ways to do that, tho obviously not selfishly Thatcherite enough for some. And your Clarkson wannabees will be sulking at the thought. But, this is the future.
Until they go on strike .
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or they are cancelled
''Quarter of bus routes axed in England in last decade
Campaigners say Rishi Sunak gave tax break to car users but has not helped public transport users''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/04/quarter-of-bus-routes-axed-in-england-in-last-decade
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I don't know if anyone mentioned it but, isn't the real issue here about making public transport unavoidably the best option? Many ways to do that, tho obviously not selfishly Thatcherite enough for some. And your Clarkson wannabees will be sulking at the thought. But, this is the future.
Problem with that is much of our employment areas (particularly in Doncaster) are well outside of public transport areas and far too inaccessible.
Choices. Even now it is possible to change that. In the very near future - driverless vehicles - it'll be easy.
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I don't know if anyone mentioned it but, isn't the real issue here about making public transport unavoidably the best option? Many ways to do that, tho obviously not selfishly Thatcherite enough for some. And your Clarkson wannabees will be sulking at the thought. But, this is the future.
Until they go on strike .
Public transport doesn't necessarily mean nationalised, or a conglomerate. Can easily be designed in a fair way. And driverless vehicles changes a lot. The alternative is a huge costly public and private system, on all levels, like we have now.
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But you don't want to work or live near a nuclear plant? It's safe for someone else to take the risk.
My brother worked at Sellafield for about a year and came home with more than he went with.
That might have been down to Sellafield Sue.
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So why all the fuss hound, all you have have to do is apologise for making that remark about my brother and keep my family out of your petty little squabbles.
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So why all the fuss hound, all you have have to do is apologise for making that remark about my brother and keep my family out of your petty little squabbles.
The fuss is because you lied about me removing a post, which I clearly didn’t.
I’m not responding to your maggots on this now because you have clearly gone back to your WUM mode.
I always thought that people in Australia had a sense of humour.
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I've told you my brother lives near the ground, he still may have his sense of humour, pm me and I'll give you the address so you can check.
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I know you did, and I said I would love to meet him if he is ever in the South Stand.
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If he does come to Rovers he will not associate himself with his moronic brother!
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If he does come to Rovers he will not associate himself with his moronic brother!
How was your weekend sprot, Friday and Saturday would be your big nights?
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I see Vauxhall have reduced the price of their electric corsa by £5550. To try to tempt people into the ev market. It’s still £26895. For a Corsa ffs.
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I see Vauxhall have reduced the price of their electric corsa by £5550. To try to tempt people into the ev market. It’s still £26895. For a Corsa ffs.
Shocking
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Ev depreciation.
Over 50% of used car dealers that were asked recently were less interested in taking on an EV than they were a year ago citing big concerns around depreciation and inability to sell on.
One I pace driver commented on a JLR forum that he took his 18 month old I pace in for a swap , cost him 77 grand new. It had 5000 miles on clock. His local jag dealer offered him 27 grand in Part ex for it . 65% loss.
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I'll be ready to swap my car in about a year's time all being well and I'm seriously considering a second hand Taycan Sport Turismo (Basically a Taycan Estate). Residuals are through the floor, with decent examples available for £50k or less now. Some of them have options priced at £35k+ on new list. If I can pick up a good one for c. £40k in a year's time (Current car will probably be worth about £15k at that point and I save a bit of money every month towards the next one) it's a very tempting proposition. Just want to understand real world range and have a look at boot space etc.
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There should be plenty of bargains around now for Tesla 3 and y models, these were special offers on the nhs lease scheme around 3 years back so will now all be ending and been shipped to cinch and other dealers. In another 3 years it will be bmw ix xdrive 40 models
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I wouldn't pay for a Tesla in washers. The ones I've been in felt like they'd been built by a three year old. And When I did consider looking at one in 2019 before I bought my current car, the staff at the Leeds branch were the most arrogant and ignorant set of Kitsons I've ever had the misfortune to encounter.
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Don't forget to link your phone when you set off, you might need the police to escort you to a motorway to ram you to a stop.
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I was giving some consideration into a low mileage three year old I pace. Which you can pick up fully loaded for around 20k. But then I found out that the I pace is soon to be discontinued by 2025 by JLR meaning it will suffer even more catastrophic depreciation due to issues around parts and support .essentially in a few years time they will be worth next to nothing .
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Take road tax and fuel duty off ice cars they are four times cheaper to run than an EV, take the ice cars and their tax burden off the roads and transfer it to EV's whether price per mile or whatever and your EV will be four times more expensive to run than the car most pf us run about in now as the prices are about par at the moment.
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I'm not convinced about that Selby. I can do 200 miles in my EV for £3.50. Good luck beating that.
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I don't know where you get this idea from, Selby.
Post a link if it is from a reliable source.
The Government have some basic stats on running cost comparisons;
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/electric-vehicles-costs-charging-and-infrastructure/electric-vehicles-costs-charging-and-infrastructure
The point NR makes about reduced value for second hand EV resale is a good thing surely.
It means that second use purchase becomes more affordable for those on a lower budget.
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And when, not if, they pass on the equivalent cost of road tolls to EV's as ice cars pay in fuel duty and road tax? or do you think they will just write that off as a good will gesture?
My costs of equivalent mileage include them costs now, take them off and it would be much closer, about 70% of my costs but I doubt it will be in the main parties manifesto, and your future will be to pay the same, in fact the first couple of budgets of whoever is in power next could be interesting for EV owners, and there is an ever larger EV owning community ripe for picking with all new cars already having the tech to track miles covered, and business advantages that can be dropped.
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If damage to the environment was costed and added to oil users as a tax, which has not been done to date ...........
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Selby,
I think that the tax regime for vehicles will change, but how it will change is very much an unknown.
Like you say, no political party is saying anything on this with an election coming up.
It may be that carbon taxes are introduced, as Syd points out...we simply don't know!
To make any sort of forecast of relative costs between EV and ICE, you need to know these details.
But that is not enough, because you would also need to know electricity prices in the future. Both utility household prices, and fast charging costs on the road.
With that missing information, alongside future petrol prices, then it might be possible to predict the relative lifetime costs.
Without these details, it is just guesswork.
It would be a massive change from the big running cost advantage that EV currently holds over ICE on today's prices.
Given the policy objective is to decarbonise, the smart money is on this difference increasing over time.
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From apr 2025 all ev will be taxes at a flat rate of £180. At least . And yet a low emission petrol
Car will Still Be £20
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They are already putting the tracking tech into new cars certainly all new EV's so a tax per mile is the future as simple as that for both Ice and EV's with the tech.
Whoever and when they introduce it will not win the next election. If anyone thinks they can limit the free cheap movement by tax of the population now they are used to it are as mad as a march hare.
I like the 20p a litre off fuel the Reform party are proposing to be honest.
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A road tax per mile is a very good idea, and is long overdue.
It means that those who use the network most pay a greater proportion of the maintenance costs of that network, no-one can disagree about that.
Why should someone just bodging about doing local shopping by subsidising people driving across the country...it makes no sense!
The cost of ICE fuel is going to be determined by international prices, and is vulnerable to unreliable suppliers like Uncle Vlad.
EV mainly charge at night, and take the cheap leccy from the wind farms when demand is low.
Basically they are performing a very useful service grid balancing for the National Grid.
This is an important role in the energy transition, as fossil fuels are replaced.
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They are already putting the tracking tech into new cars certainly all new EV's so a tax per mile is the future as simple as that for both Ice and EV's with the tech.
Whoever and when they introduce it will not win the next election. If anyone thinks they can limit the free cheap movement by tax of the population now they are used to it are as mad as a march hare.
I like the 20p a litre off fuel the Reform party are proposing to be honest.
Have they said how they will finance that 20p?
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A road tax per mile is a very good idea, and is long overdue.
It means that those who use the network most pay a greater proportion of the maintenance costs of that network, no-one can disagree about that.
Why should someone just bodging about doing local shopping by subsidising people driving across the country...it makes no sense!
The cost of ICE fuel is going to be determined by international prices, and is vulnerable to unreliable suppliers like Uncle Vlad.
EV mainly charge at night, and take the cheap leccy from the wind farms when demand is low.
Basically they are performing a very useful service grid balancing for the National Grid.
This is an important role in the energy transition, as fossil fuels are replaced.
Dangerous game to play though, the whole pay what you use thing. Buses, bike lanes, kids playgrounds, police (touch wood), swimming pools etc. There's a whole list of random things I don't use but are taxed for so in theory shouldn't pay. I don't use the dole office but my god the tax man taps me up good and proper for the lazies
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As others raised the relative running costs of EV against ICE, here is the actual factual;
https://nitter.poast.org/pic/orig/media%2FGJNgadWX0AAeRpQ.jpg
No arguing with data, is there?
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The cost of petrol and Diesel per mile includes the tax levied on the fuel, the actual cost of the fuel is therefore much cheaper, if comparable tax was levied on EV,s thety would be dearer tan ice cars.
I suppose the costs of home charging conveniently don't include standing charges levied on household bills just the price per unit.
When taxed per mile is introduced, which it could be after the next election as the Labour government hunt more of your money to spend on pet projects let's see where the land lies then.
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Selby,
You have to pay standing charges in any case, it does not make a difference if you are running an ICE vehicle or an EV.
I don't see your point.
The average annual fuel costs for typical ICE is £1377 per year, for full electric vehicles on a mix of night charging & some public charging its £270 per year, or just £161 on just night rate elec.
A new road charge based on mileage replacing the present tax would be a a good thing, because low network use would mean lower costs.
Many would be better off, while others would have to pay properly for the wear and tear damage on the network they contribute to.
The road charge is nothing to do with the EV/ICE debate.
It would likely be implemented by number plate recognition, a technology that is already available.
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Albie, I am too old to be bothered at all about electric or Ice cars, the one I have 12 months old will see me out, but the fuel duty raised on diesel and petrol sales will have to be recovered.
So a tax on charging or most likely a charge per mile will be introduced probably in the first or second labour budget.
Every duty at the moment is skewed to ice transport, remove them from the roads and that money has to be found and added to the EV costs, they will be very expensive to run, maintain, repair, and insure, which the second hand market is already finding out, with residual values falling and dealers refusing to stock EVs. and private buyers dropping out of the market.
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You can get Fiskers dirt cheap now :woot: another EV firm on the brink of bankruptcy. And as I mentioned in a different post this is exactly why you should be allowed to short sell shares. A fraud of a company that has been creative with its book keeping for years. This dog used to be valued at billions
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/companies/fisker-reportedly-temporarily-misplaced-millions-of-dollars-in-payments-for-its-evs/ar-BB1kHU03
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I have just received a letter from Evans Halshaw on Wheatley Hall Road that their show room is being closed later this year and my car will be serviced at the Peugeot Vauxhall joint show room and service station nearby.
So sales and service personnel out of jobs, the reason when I asked was sales have slumped since going mainly EV in the PSA group.
Will it be the first of many ?
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I have just received a letter from Evans Halshaw on Wheatley Hall Road that their show room is being closed later this year and my car will be serviced at the Peugeot Vauxhall joint show room and service station nearby.
So sales and service personnel out of jobs, the reason when I asked was sales have slumped since going mainly EV in the PSA group.
Will it be the first of many ?
Our local JLR showroom is suspected to be one of over 100 JLR dealerships that will close soon. It’s not been open that long. The salesman we spoke to there yesterday reckons it’s down to the whole JLR fleet going Electric. And they are cutting costs by getting rid of showrooms.