Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: wilts rover on June 05, 2024, 09:08:32 am
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So Sunak lied his way all through the debate last night. The claim that his costing of Labour's policies had been made by 'independent Treasury Officals' has now been denied by those 'independent Treasury Officals'.
There were no parties.
Same old Tories, lying through their teeth.
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And when they aren't lying they spend their spare time stabbing each other in the back.
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https://x.com/hzeffman/status/1798252445321343456?s=61&t=DCRm1C_BBr5pt7J45jXUsA
Proof of the lying party
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Problem is, repeated shouting of the “£2000 tax” thing and many gullible folks will believe it. Just like with social media and tabloid headlines.
But hey, why let the truth get in the way!!
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He shouldn't say it if it isn't true, very bad look.
Labour just need to commit fully to what their tax policies are to win that argument, that's where Starmer struggled last night.
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He shouldn't say it if it isn't true, very bad look.
Labour just need to commit fully to what their tax policies are to win that argument, that's where Starmer struggled last night.
Their manifesto isn’t out yet? I’m sure we will hear much more about tax issues before the election.
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Sunak can just make commitments knowing full well he won't have implement them. So yeah, of course the Tories would have given us all huge tax cuts if only we'd let them.
The reality isright now they are cutting taxes by making them ever higher! There's no reason to suspect this wouldn't continue, in the alternative universe where the Tories win.
I think Starmer should forcefully say the country is in a serious mess. Now who do you trust more to start clearing it up?
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Here's a thought.
Starmer got hammered last night by commentators for not smacking down the £2000 claim hard enough.
Is it possible that he actually wanted Sunak to keep on repeating it, knowing that it's a lie?
Within 12 hours of debate, the focus of the discussion has flipped 180 degrees into yet another example of the Tories lying.
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Wonder if the exposed lie will be a big bold headline in the Mail tomorrow.??
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Apparently they're standing by the £2000 lie even after the Treasury letter. Why wouldn't they? Short, simple lies are proven to be effective. There's no downside to lying anymore.
No idea why Starmer didn't immediately throttle this last night. He only really challenged it in the second half of the debate after Sunak had repeated it a million times.
Here's a thought.
Starmer got hammered last night by commentators for not smacking down the £2000 claim hard enough.
Is it possible that he actually wanted Sunak to keep on repeating it, knowing that it's a lie?
Within 12 hours of debate, the focus of the discussion has flipped 180 degrees into yet another example of the Tories lying.
Does it matter if they just stand by the figure and continue to repeat it? That's a genuine question by the way. Do you think people are wise to this sort of thing now, or it this the big red bus all over again?
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When millions of Americans are still prepared to vote for a convicted felon, swallowing the lies that the system is corrupt, the jury is biased, the judge is biased, again and again...
It makes you wonder. It seems people will just swallow any old shite.
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Here's a thought.
Starmer got hammered last night by commentators for not smacking down the £2000 claim hard enough.
Is it possible that he actually wanted Sunak to keep on repeating it, knowing that it's a lie?
Within 12 hours of debate, the focus of the discussion has flipped 180 degrees into yet another example of the Tories lying.
I did wonder this. In Parliament, Starmer was adept at laying traps, for want of a better phrase.
It may work, however it is a risk. How many are sufficiently politically engaged to the point that they will take note of any post-debate fall out? The amount of press coverage given to the evidence of the lie will dicate this.
Of course, it could have been a failure by Labour to fully prepare for this issue.
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Agreed Chris.
It would be a very high risk strategy.
On reflection it's very poor planning by Labour. They had the letter from the Permanent Secretary. The way to deal with this would have been to produce the letter there and then in the debate. Get Sunak to say that civil servants had produced an independent costing, then hold the letter up high, on camera.
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This is how far through the looking glass we now are.
There's a letter in the public domain from the Permanent Secretary saying these figures must not be presented as coming from the Treasury.
Then here's a Cabinet Minister this morning saying they were signed off by the Permanent Secretary.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-69088663?ns_mchannel=social&ns_source=twitter&ns_campaign=bbc_live&ns_linkname=66601ce4e4245d593febe832%26Sunak%20and%20his%20minister%20repeat%20claims%20about%20Labour%20tax%20rises%262024-06-05T09%3A22%3A53.971Z&ns_fee=0&pinned_post_locator=urn:asset:42850db1-c20c-45c5-954f-612846dcbb16&pinned_post_asset_id=66601ce4e4245d593febe832&pinned_post_type=share
When you are desperate, I suppose lying comes easier. But f**k me, what a rabble they are.
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And take a step back. Think about what happened last night.
The PM of the UK went on national TV in front of the country, looked into the camera and said something he knew to be a lie. For party political advantage.
That's where 14 years of this shower has brought us to.
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What's that saying? A lie has travelled half way around the world before the truth has got its boots on?
The Tories know by now that they can tell any lie they want and get away with it with impunity.
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And take a step back. Think about what happened last night.
The PM of the UK went on national TV in front of the country, looked into the camera and said something he knew to be a lie. For party political advantage.
That's where 14 years of this shower has brought us to.
Sounds a bit like Tony Blair!
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Here's the biggest deception in the Tory £2000 tax lie.
The biggest proportion by far of the money the new Lab Govt will spend is capital investment in infrastructure for the Green economy. The Tory figures out this afternoon £23bn which is probably not far off.
But.
The Tories are saying that will be funded by tax increases over 5 years.
Absolute horse shit.
You pay for capital investment by borrowing. Reeves has been saying that for months. Borrowing does not put up taxes. And in the long run, assuming you get reasonable efficiency from your spending, it pays for itself through lower future costs and increased productivity.
A domestic example.
Last year I spent about £12k on a solar panel and battery system.
I didn't pay for that out of last year's wages.
I extended my mortgage by £10k.
The extra amount I'm paying to service that debt is more than covered by the saving I'm making on electricity. Plus I've got an asset that will continue to save me money long after I've paid off the borrowing.
It's really not hard if you think about it. But as ever, the Tories think voters are too thick to think these things through.
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Labour's tax plans will be right scrutinised once they have published their manifesto.
But that wasn't the lie last night. The lie was the figure Sunak quoted, 12 times apparently, was produced he said by 'independent Treasury Officals'. It wasn't - it was made up by the Tory Party.
Sunak lied to the country on national tv.
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Sunak also claimed taxes are down when they are up.
Waiting lists are down when they are up
Numbers of small boats channel crossings are down when they are up.
It's an imaginary country that he's presenting.
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This was precisely what I feared when Johnson was chosen as PM
If you elevate and reward a man for a lifetime of lying on matters of Objective Truth, what incentive is there for anyone coming afterwards to be truthful?
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Not having watched the debate, and who wanted 6 of them?, judging by comments here it seems to have been a copy of the USA debates where Trump dominated proceedings speaking over Biden and the presenter with many untruths but planting seeds as he did against Clinton, is this where our politics are heading?
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Sunak made up a story to browbeat the viewing audience, knowing that it would stick with a significant percentage of those watching.
Straight from the Trump/Bannon playbook.
This is how these stand-offs work, use the airtime to place a constructed reality and gain a temporary advantage.
These face offs are an insult to democracy, and should be banned in a pre-election period.
Modern politics is about the immediacy of a claim, not whether it stands up to detailed scrutiny.
Sunak has taken Starmer's tactic of lie, deny and reverse into this adversarial context.
Keith has told more misleading untruths during his leadership than any Labour politician in history.
His mode has been in one to one interviews with Marr, Neil and LK.
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What's that saying? A lie has travelled half way around the world before the truth has got its boots on?
The Tories know by now that they can tell any lie they want and get away with it with impunity.
Spot on Mike.
Starmer should have immediately slammed Sunak's £2000 allegation as nonsense the first moment he raised it.
Instead, he allowed Sunak to hit him with it repeatedly until offering a rather half-hearted rebuttal.
By which time the damage was done and many voters will have that accusation and the £2000 figure as an 'ear-worm' from last night.
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I doubt lying will have the same traction in the UK.
We don't have anything like the Christian right, who want to believe the lies.
I noticed the rightwing press aren't
reporting it but the BBC and broadcast media will and they have greater reach.
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In the same debate Stabber Starmer said that he would not pay for treatment for a close family member but would use the NHS and would willingly go on a long waiting list before going private.
Now just last week his personal wealth was published of north of £7million so I guess it shows one of a few things
He is a tight b*****d, a liar, or likes to see people suffer unnecessarily, and he is hardly a good socialist, what do you think?
I just think one of two things, he will be able to jump the que and sod the unwashed, or he is a liar.
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In the same debate Stabber Starmer said that he would not pay for treatment for a close family member but would use the NHS and would willingly go on a long waiting list before going private.
Now just last week his personal wealth was published of north of £7million so I guess it shows one of a few things
He is a tight b*****d, a liar, or likes to see people suffer unnecessarily, and he is hardly a good socialist, what do you think?
I just think one of two things, he will be able to jump the que and sod the unwashed, or he is a liar.
You could be correct selby, but as usual you're not. It's right there on your tv screens sunak is the biggest bar johnson.
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Its a rubbish question anyway - and one he nor Sunak could win, of course he would go private if it was a life critical issue, anyone with the cash would. The rich shouldn’t be penalised in that way, but the point is Starmer wants equality for the poorer (mostly substantially poorer to both men) to receive better treatment through the NHS.
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Its a rubbish question anyway - and one he nor Sunak could win, of course he would go private if it was a life critical issue, anyone with the cash would. The rich shouldn’t be penalised in that way, but the point is Starmer wants equality for the poorer (mostly substantially poorer to both men) to receive better treatment through the NHS.
I doubt Starmer was talking about emergency care.
''When you need emergency care, the NHS is often your best option, as most private hospitals do not have Accident and Emergency (A&E) facilities.
However, some hospitals do offer walk-in services or private urgent care facilities''
https://hje.org.uk/blog/private-healthcare-vs-the-nhs-which-should-you-choose/#:~:text=When%20you%20need%20emergency%20care,or%20private%20urgent%20care%20facilities.
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Even the tax lie was inaccurate.. the way Sunak was going on it was as if the supposed tax rise was each year, when it would have been over 4 years - even if it was true..
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Even the tax lie was inaccurate.. the way Sunak was going on it was as if the supposed tax rise was each year, when it would have been over 4 years - even if it was true..
Lies, damn lies and statistics.
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Its a rubbish question anyway - and one he nor Sunak could win, of course he would go private if it was a life critical issue, anyone with the cash would. The rich shouldn’t be penalised in that way, but the point is Starmer wants equality for the poorer (mostly substantially poorer to both men) to receive better treatment through the NHS.
It's a f**king disgusting question.
It's basically saying "After the Tories have wrecked the NHS, would you a) let yourself or your family die or b) be a hypocrite?
Whoever thought up that question last night wants taking to a big f**king dog, then banned from NHS treatment.
That's exactly what I mean about the leaders debates being frivolous entertainment.
What about asking Sunak: Why is the NHS so much worse than it was in 2010 and what will you do about it?
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And yes I am f**king angry as hell about this. I've recently lost a great friend because of a backlog that prevented him getting treated on the NHS until it was too late. And I've got another friend who has had no option but to go private for treatment after being told there was a two month delay in getting NHS treatment for a condition that will probably kill him too.
What this lot have done to the NHS is just beyond words. They have brought a service that was as good as anything in the world 15 years ago to the brink of collapse.
And then you get f**king insane questions like that trotted out at a debate.
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It really is a pointless question, if you can afford of course you do it. I had a major operation some 26 years ago, all on Nhs but the wait to see the specialist that started the ball rolling would have been 115 weeks , I paid 120 quid and was seen inside a fortnight, that started the diagnosis and I was operated on within 6 months. There's every chance if I'd gone undiagnosed I'd have not made the 115 week wait. It's all well and good asking that question, but the only one that matters is why do you have to.
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In the same debate Stabber Starmer said that he would not pay for treatment for a close family member but would use the NHS and would willingly go on a long waiting list before going private.
Now just last week his personal wealth was published of north of £7million so I guess it shows one of a few things
He is a tight b*****d, a liar, or likes to see people suffer unnecessarily, and he is hardly a good socialist, what do you think?
I just think one of two things, he will be able to jump the que and sod the unwashed, or he is a liar.
Perhaps he intends to address the waiting list so people aren't having to wait months, so it becomes a none issue? Rather than us carry on as we are letting it grow and grow.