Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: Sombrero on April 14, 2010, 11:33:51 pm
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http://boards.footymad.net/forum.php?tno=463&fid=221&sty=2&act=1&mid=2121993208
It's what is being reported on Blades mad, anyone know anything.
Have we seen the last of him, we certainly dropped on lucky getting him this year but who could replace him next year?
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I wouldn`t take much notice of them, on the saturday we played plymouth they were saying that he was at Brammall Lane watching the Blades when in actual fact he was at the KM, I saw him with my own eyes, he was also at the KM on Saturday against WBA
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not much in that to what what i can see
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Absolute rubbish, we know Billy is still fighting to be fit to play another game this season, and I too saw him last weekend at our match, not United's. Even if he had gone back, doesn't mean we aren't gonna sign him in the summer or try, didn't Shackell go back to Wolves when he got injured?
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I don't think we will see Billy in a Rovers shirt again, except a training top. I really do wish that we could sign him over the summer, but I have a feeling that we will not be able to afford him. If so, good luck to the lad, he will find another club besides the Blades to go to, and we will no doubt find somebody to replace him.
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or according to Rovers Mad we have already purchased him due to there being a clause to that extent in the loan agreement
http://boards.footymad.net/forum.php?tno=184&fid=96&sty=2&act=1&mid=2122046794
what is true is that Sheffield United have debts of £46 million and 6 strikers
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Anyone else of the opinion that if happens then great, but if not we can see why and he'll move on and we'll have to fill the void?
I, for one, am not getting too stressed over how much we are or aren't paying.
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DMnumber4 wrote:
Anyone else of the opinion that if happens then great, but if not we can see why and he'll move on and we'll have to fill the void?
I, for one, am not getting too stressed over how much we are or aren't paying.
[/b]
leave that to your sister tom ;)
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Sad day to confirm Billy will not play for the Rovers again this season.
Again I cant say how i got this information, as the last time i mentioned some information on Billy i got 'bollocked' from other forum members about my source..
For those who dont know, i put on the forum that Billy was coming to the rovers for certain 2 hours before it was officially announced.. (to confirm the info on him not playing again this season is from the same source).
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yeah cos hes injured
hes gone back to his club for treatment i heard.
but i do strongley believe that billy will be back in a rovers shirt FOR GOOD next season!
lets just hope the blunts dont lose to wednesday and blackwell keeps his job.
cos after all billy will never play while hes still there.
dont think billy sharpe is a numpty he knows the crack weve helped him and hes helped us.
but can we afford him??????
i still think hell be back at the keepmoat in a red and white shirt next season
along with shackell
i hope :scarf:
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Personally i dont think there will be a problem affording BS and JS , where i think there will be a problem is attracting ANOTHER goalscorer and another central defender to assist the team in the absence of BS & JS ( injury and suspension times, or plain loss of form ).
Maybe Ward has been sounded out, maybe some loans will be brought in as back up to said players, only Ryan and his board and the management will know, but thats where i see problem.
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irishcontingent wrote:
Personally i dont think there will be a problem affording BS and JS , where i think there will be a problem is attracting ANOTHER goalscorer and another central defender to assist the team in the absence of BS & JS ( injury and suspension times, or plain loss of form ).
Maybe Ward has been sounded out, maybe some loans will be brought in as back up to said players, only Ryan and his board and the management will know, but thats where i see problem.
Personally i dont think there will be a problem affording BS and JS
It will cost a bomb to buy both Shacks and Sharp; however, it will be worth it if they get us to the premiership.
How much would it cost to buy the pair of them? This is my rough estimate; I’m probably miles out though! I‘d say around £624 thousand a year in salary (for both) then the transfer fee (for both) say around £1.5 million. So the board would have to invest a staggering £2 million plus, and don’t forget they are already covering huge deficits each year. It’s a massive ask. It must be giving the board a real headache, I am glad it isn't me calling this.
If we do buy both, Billy and Shacks, then the plan must be to go flat out to reach the promise land, otherwise, the deficit at the end of next year will be around £5-6 million, based on previous deficits. So I can only see us buying them if we are ready to go for it, and from what I’ve seen this season, we are more than ready to take this league by storm, exciting times B)
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topnotch_Donny wrote:
irishcontingent wrote:
Personally i dont think there will be a problem affording BS and JS , where i think there will be a problem is attracting ANOTHER goalscorer and another central defender to assist the team in the absence of BS & JS ( injury and suspension times, or plain loss of form ).
Maybe Ward has been sounded out, maybe some loans will be brought in as back up to said players, only Ryan and his board and the management will know, but thats where i see problem.
Personally i dont think there will be a problem affording BS and JS
It will cost a bomb to buy both Shacks and Sharp; however, it will be worth it if they get us to the premiership.
How much would it cost to buy the pair of them? This is my rough estimate; I’m probably miles out though! I‘d say around £624 thousand a year in salary (for both) then the transfer fee (for both) say around £1.5 million. So the board would have to invest a staggering £2 million plus, and don’t forget they are already covering huge deficits each year. It’s a massive ask. It must be giving the board a real headache, I am glad it isn't me calling this.
If we do buy both, Billy and Shacks, then the plan must be to go flat out to reach the promise land, otherwise, the deficit at the end of next year will be around £5-6 million, based on previous deficits. So I can only see us buying them if we are ready to go for it, and from what I’ve seen this season, we are more than ready to take this league by storm, exciting times B)
Me too...however, my gut feeling is that we may be going for it. We have the opportunity to purchase top notch players that are proven with us, we have had them and taken them for a test drive and we liked it. They are bedded in and for that are relatively cheap, plus they want to be here. How long and how much will we waste in trying out other players? The time is now, all be it a little bit earlier than some may have liked. The parachute payment announcement may force the hand and our manager will not hang around for good. Strike now and enjoy the potential prize.
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topnotch_Donny wrote:
If we do buy both, Billy and Shacks, then the plan must be to go flat out to reach the promise land, otherwise, the deficit at the end of next year will be around £5-6 million, based on previous deficits. So I can only see us buying them if we are ready to go for it, and from what I’ve seen this season, we are more than ready to take this league by storm, exciting times B)
Hate to be a killjoy, but we had both Shack and Billy in the team this season and we are looking like we are going to finish mid table, so it is maybe a bit too optimistic to assume that we have a good chance of promotion if we buy them both.
What stopped us competing for a top 6 finish this year, I think, was that the squad was two or maybe three players short. Injuries happen and you need to plan for the worst and when we had ours we struggled a bit. Nevertheless, we weren't a million miles away from having a top 6 team.
Also worth baring in mind that we will probably only have Fairhurst and Hayter at the club next season. So we need another 2 strikers at least.
We can't go throwing all our cash at Sharp and then pray he never gets injured. He inevitably will and then we are suddenly relegation fodder.
Looking in my crystal ball I reckon:
Sharp will not be here.
Shackell or Ward signs permanently (for me preferably Shackell).
1 quality striker on a season loan.
1 striker probably from a lower level brought in on a small fee, or a top class striker who's getting on a bit and is asking for reasonable wages (e.g Kevin Phillips).
2 workmanlike midfielders. (Gillett, Montgomery types)
1 goalie.
...and if we get a decent offer for Woods or Stock, I think they will be on their way.
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Dont forget the return of Steve Brooker!
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Hate to be a killjoy, but we had both Shack and Billy in the team this season and we are looking like we are going to finish mid table, so it is maybe a bit too optimistic to assume that we have a good chance of promotion if we buy them both.
What stopped us competing for a top 6 finish this year, I think, was that the squad was two or maybe three players short. Injuries happen and you need to plan for the worst and when we had ours we struggled a bit. Nevertheless, we weren't a million miles away from having a top 6 team.
What stopped us competing was losing the 2 players you mention right at the time we needed them most. We were 6 points off the play-off's, remember, and we had to do without those 2 at the critical time.
We do need more strength-in-depth, but we have to be very 'selective' with the players we bring in, due to budgets.
IF we want to maintain our league position next season, then I'm afraid these 2 (or something very close to them, in quality terms) will be needed again next season. If we want to push on and improve further, then we need to add (maybe) a couple more.
At least I don't need to bang on relentlessly about the need for a striker anymore, as Billy proved, without a shadow of a doubt, that we were desperate for someone to lead the line. I still have the utmost faith in the manager to deliver at this level, but I have serious doubts as to the amount of backing he will be given to fulfil that prophecy.
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Rigoglioso wrote:
irishcontingent wrote:
Maybe Ward has been sounded out, maybe some loans will be brought in as back up to said players, only Ryan and his board and the management will know, but thats where i see problem.
I certainly hope we can get Elliot Ward. If it came as a straight toss up between him and Shackell, I'd go for Ward every time. Presumably he would be more financially viable and he really did make a massive impression on me during his months loan.
Go on JR, get Ward snapped up!!! Them dogs b*llocks are still around somewhere if they are needed again! ;)
that wise old sage brian clough was always of the opinion that you build a team from the back
get the defence right and you are always in the game give away stupid goals at the wrong time and you are bolloxed :unsure:
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Personally I am not optimistic about us signing Sharp.
As such we should be looking at alternatives NOW. In fact I think there is a ready made replacement in Hooper at Scunthorpe United - he wants away, he scores goals for fun at Scunny who I dont believe are as strong as us, he wouldnt cost a huge transfer fee, and I dont believe his wage demands would be out of our current structure.
Id be amazed if Rovers were not looking at him as a viable option for next season - and I wouldnt say not to Scunnys Keeper, Murphy, as well. Lets use them North Lincs minnows as a feeder Club. ;)
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Hate to be a killjoy, but we had both Shack and Billy in the team this season and we are looking like we are going to finish mid table, so it is maybe a bit too optimistic to assume that we have a good chance of promotion if we buy them both.
If these two players had stayed fit we would have definetly made the playoffs. If we had not loaned these two players we would have been in the bottom four.Our results in the last period prove that. We have also missed Brian Stock,at his best, which we have not seen this season. If Billy had still been fit, after the Barnsley game we would have got the points we required to be in the playoffs. Pre season will be interesting, can we keep our manager? Will we sign the players we need to maintain our position aswell as progress? Will we have to wait till End of July ,August again to find out. Will we be told again by the JR and the Board we can aim for the playoffs yet signing of quality players is not there.
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Thinwhiteduke wrote:
Personally I am not optimistic about us signing Sharp.
As such we should be looking at alternatives NOW. In fact I think there is a ready made replacement in Hooper at Scunthorpe United - he wants away, he scores goals for fun at Scunny who I dont believe are as strong as us, he wouldnt cost a huge transfer fee, and I dont believe his wage demands would be out of our current structure.
Id be amazed if Rovers were not looking at him as a viable option for next season - and I wouldnt say not to Scunnys Keeper, Murphy, as well. Lets use them North Lincs minnows as a feeder Club. ;)
Ipswich are reportedly lining up a million bid for Hooper. Murphy is an excellent keeper destined for bigger things & again probably out of our financial reach.
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Agreed.
Look where we were before Billy came in on loan compared to out comparitive performance with him in the side, and our results again since he's been injured - a clear pattern emerges. However, I still think its a huge error to bomb Heffernan out of the Club.
As for this summer, I reckon its essential we make our signing early, get as much pre season in as possible and attempt to hit the ground running. We have been so slow off the mark in the last few season, and Im sure its partially due to our sluggish, slow performance in the transfer market.
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Thinwhiteduke wrote:
Agreed.
Look where we were before Billy came in on loan compared to out comparitive performance with him in the side, and our results again since he's been injured - a clear pattern emerges. However, I still think its a huge error to bomb Heffernan out of the Club.
As for this summer, I reckon its essential we make our signing early, get as much pre season in as possible and attempt to hit the ground running. We have been so slow off the mark in the last few season, and Im sure its partially due to our sluggish, slow performance in the transfer market.
Bit of a contradiction there. You say we weren't doing anything without Sharp as front man. Before him it was Heffs, now it's Heffs again yet you think it's an error to let him go?
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big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:
Bit of a contradiction there. You say we weren't doing anything without Sharp as front man. Before him it was Heffs, now it's Heffs again yet you think it's an error to let him go?
Once again it's a shame that people don't do a bit of research before giving us their opinions.
1) Heffernan started only 2 games at the start of the season. We got two creditable draws.
2) in the 5 matches we played before Sharp came, we got 5 points.
3) In Sharp's first 5 starts we got 3 points.
4) In Sharp's first 9 games we got 7 points.
5) Sharp scored just 2 goals in his first 7 starts.
The point being? Sides and strikers often need time to get going. We did NOT suddenly catch fire when Sharp arrived. If anything we went backwards for a short while. And Sharp dud NOT suddenly look like a world beater when he arrived. It took him a while to settle in to the side, reach match sharpness and start taking chances.
For some reason, you seem to assume that Heffernan should be judged by different criteria. If Heffernan does not start to score immediately, or if the team doesn't click immediately when he us picked, you take this as evidence that he is not up to this level. Be consistent laddie.
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BST, please answer this simple question for us:
Let's pretend we can afford Sharp and his wages, and we have to have one or the other, who do we sign?
a) Billy Sharp
b) Paul Heffernan
And no backchat please, this isn't a forum you know! B)
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BillyStubbsTears wrote:
big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:
For some reason, you seem to assume that Heffernan should be judged by different criteria. If Heffernan does not start to score immediately, or if the team doesn't click immediately when he us picked, you take this as evidence that he is not up to this level. Be consistent laddie.
It doesn't need statistics to tell me he's not good enough, my own eye site and judgement will do that. I've even seen people say Heffs scored in league 1 on loan. Yes he did, 5 goals in his 15 starts. Now compare that to Sharp's 15 goals in 30 in the league above.
Opinions aside if you want to use statistics, starts, runs whatever, it still doesn't get away from the fact that Heffernan still hasn't played in a winning side for Rovers this season and in his last 15 starts both for us and Bristol Rovers, he has 4 goals. If 15 starts between 26th January and now, isn't a run of playing football then what is? Are you seriously telling me that 4 goals in a run of 15 games is good enough?
We all know he didn't have a great chance at the start of the season and has not had many starts for us this seaosn (just 6). But you can't claim he hasn't had a run of first team football. Be it at league 1 or Championship level it shouldn't really make much difference to Heffernan who is a pro and should perform to the same level in both leagues.
Cool hard fact of day is IMO Heffs does not offer a goal threat for us at this moment at time. Can you really tell me you feel confident we'll score goals with Heffernan playing up front?
As for Sharp scoring goals, that is a fair point, he did score 2 in his first 7 starts. One slight difference, he did claim assists and plenty of them. I'd be happier with Heff up front if he was at least creating goals but he doesn't get assists either.
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You can see that Heffs just isn't interested in playing for DRFC anymore by his demeanour and body language when he's playing. I heard he was a bit pissed off at being recalled from Brizzle and so far his performances have backed that up since he came back.
So if that's the case i would rather give young Waide a go for the last 2 matches.
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big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:
BillyStubbsTears wrote:
big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:
For some reason, you seem to assume that Heffernan should be judged by different criteria. If Heffernan does not start to score immediately, or if the team doesn't click immediately when he us picked, you take this as evidence that he is not up to this level. Be consistent laddie.
It doesn't need statistics to tell me he's not good enough, my own eye site and judgement will do that. I've even seen people say Heffs scored in league 1 on loan. Yes he did, 5 goals in his 15 starts. Now compare that to Sharp's 15 goals in 30 in the league above.
Opinions aside if you want to use statistics, starts, runs whatever, it still doesn't get away from the fact that Heffernan still hasn't played in a winning side for Rovers this season and in his last 15 starts both for us and Bristol Rovers, he has 4 goals. If 15 starts between 26th January and now, isn't a run of playing football then what is? Are you seriously telling me that 4 goals in a run of 15 games is good enough?
We all know he didn't have a great chance at the start of the season and has not had many starts for us this seaosn (just 6). But you can't claim he hasn't had a run of first team football. Be it at league 1 or Championship level it shouldn't really make much difference to Heffernan who is a pro and should perform to the same level in both leagues.
Cool hard fact of day is IMO Heffs does not offer a goal threat for us at this moment at time. Can you really tell me you feel confident we'll score goals with Heffernan playing up front?
As for Sharp scoring goals, that is a fair point, he did score 2 in his first 7 starts. One slight difference, he did claim assists and plenty of them. I'd be happier with Heff up front if he was at least creating goals but he doesn't get assists either.
Once again, we're assailed by your opinions without facts to back them up.
The fact is that Sharp had 2 assists in his first 10 matches. He has 6 assists in 32 starts this year which is a decent return. Heffernan had 4 assists in 19 starts last year which is a slightly better rate.
You are consistently missing the key point which is that Heffernan has NOT had a consistent run AT THIS LEVEL this year. After being dropped in August, he has started one match against Middlesborough when the team imploded and has come back into a squad that has not even been able to fill the bench, such is the injury crisis. You are judging him on the odd match here and there. That neither sensible nor fair, and nor does it take into account the lad's record when he HAS had a consistent run over the last 4 years, which is second to none.
Your choice of course. I just get annoyed at people spouting opinions when the facts don't back them up. More than ever at Election time.
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You can't back your opinion up by saying he hasn't been tried. Yet again you avoid the league 1 issue. Heff consistently played at that level this season and still didn't score at the rate of Sharp whilst playing in the level below. No doubt there's an excuse for that one aswell.
I've now decided we should recall Lewis Guy, he hasn't had a run of starts in this league either so he might be good enough.
Load of twaddle.
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bobjimwilly wrote:
BST, please answer this simple question for us:
Let's pretend we can afford Sharp and his wages, and we have to have one or the other, who do we sign?
a) Billy Sharp
b) Paul Heffernan
And no backchat please, this isn't a forum you know! B)
I'd rather have Sharp. No question. He brings a different dimension to the team with his physical style and it'd be daft to ignore that. Sharp has been a better player than I expected, I'll freely admit that, but if anything he's simply gone further out of our price range.
Course, I'd rather have Wayne Rooney than Sharp, but there's not much chance of us being able to afford him either...
The issue has always been whether we were making the most of a player that we already DID own. I said back in August on the day we signed Sharp that come the end of May we'd be left with neither Sharp nor Heffernan, and we'd have a major goalscoring crisis on our hands for next season, having effectively written off a proven goalscorer who could (on last season's performances) have been worth several hundred thousand pounds. As you well know, I have my opinions on that. Others don't seem to mind that the club has wasted one of it's best assets of the last few years.
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Without any facts to back it up, I think most people recognise the overall impact that Billy had on the team, when compared to anyone who held the slot previously. You can quote statistics all day long, BST, but at the end of the day, I know who I'd rather have in our side and who I'd rather go and watch.
It's just not worth the effort making the comparison anymore, as I think we've moved on, as a team and as a Club. I just hope we can keep the momentum going!
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big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:
You can't back your opinion up by saying he hasn't been tried. Yet again you avoid the league 1 issue. Heff consistently played at that level this season and still didn't score at the rate of Sharp whilst playing in the level below. No doubt there's an excuse for that one aswell.
I've now decided we should recall Lewis Guy, he hasn't had a run of starts in this league either so he might be good enough.
Load of twaddle.
I despair.
You are selecting facts to suit a particular argument and ignoring other pertinent ones.
You are making the cardinal error of statistics, which is to draw conclusions from a limited set of data.
Here's an example. Billy Sharp scored 1 non-penalty goal from 13 starts between Boxing Day and the end of February. Did that mean that he was no good? Of course not because you accept that strikers go through periods of goalscoring form. You judge them over a long run, not over isolated periods where the figures just happen to support your prejudices.
I'll set you a little logic exam as a further example.
Heffernan scored 10 league goals in 19 starts last season.
Sharp, at Sheffield Utd scored 4 in 17 starts.
So Heffernan scored at more than twice the rate that Sharp did.
Did that PROVE that Heffernan was a better striker than Sharp? Did Sharp's figures last season PROVE that he was incompetent at this level? Of course they didn't. The two players were in different circumstances, and comparison is pointless without taking that into account. Especially when you take into account the fact that Sharp didn't get extended runs of appearances, and was clearly not rated by his manager.
The point is NOT whether Heffernan is better or worse than Sharp. The issue that you have raised on a number of occasions is whether Heffernan is competent at this level. You are selecting a few facts to try to back up your opinion that he isn't. You are ignoring a whole raft of evidence that suggests that, given a run (which any striker - Billy Sharp included - needs) he is.
You'd make a decent politician mind.
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Alan Southstand wrote:
Without any facts to back it up, I think most people recognise the overall impact that Billy had on the team, when compared to anyone who held the slot previously. You can quote statistics all day long, BST, but at the end of the day, I know who I'd rather have in our side and who I'd rather go and watch.
It's just not worth the effort making the comparison anymore, as I think we've moved on, as a team and as a Club. I just hope we can keep the momentum going!
I refer the Honorable Gentleman to my post above.
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steve@dcfd wrote:
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Hate to be a killjoy, but we had both Shack and Billy in the team this season and we are looking like we are going to finish mid table, so it is maybe a bit too optimistic to assume that we have a good chance of promotion if we buy them both.
If these two players had stayed fit we would have definetly made the playoffs. If we had not loaned these two players we would have been in the bottom four.Our results in the last period prove that. We have also missed Brian Stock,at his best, which we have not seen this season. If Billy had still been fit, after the Barnsley game we would have got the points we required to be in the playoffs. Pre season will be interesting, can we keep our manager? Will we sign the players we need to maintain our position aswell as progress? Will we have to wait till End of July ,August again to find out. Will we be told again by the JR and the Board we can aim for the playoffs yet signing of quality players is not there.
But there's no guarentee players will stay fit. If we could take our best 11 into every game and they stay on form then we're certainly a good bet for the playoffs. But what's the possibility of that happening? This season we have had injuries (as well as others) to Sharp, Shack and Stock. We have also seen (although its up for debate I accept) Copps, Shiels and Woods have an off spell.
When these things have happened we've been a bit lacking. When you look at some of the players on the bench for the top 6 then I start to think we need more than Sharp and Shack(/Ward) to make the playoffs and thats going to be hard to do on our wage structure.
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BillyStubbsTears wrote:
big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:
You'd make a decent politician mind.
AS would you. You just cannot concede that you might actually be wrong. I'm quite happy to see the alternate point of view are you?
One thing that gets me is how people constantly refer to the past. The anti Tory lot do it by referring to things that happened 15-20 years ago and in football we get arguments saying but he did it in that season. That's all irelevant in reality. Things move so quickly.
Now back to critising the government, that's all I seem to do in my studies these days.
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In a way your both right...Sharp is hoping for the best deal he can get and he is unlikely to get that here, so despite how good he has been,it will put too much pressure on the club financially to secure him.
However i have to say to bst (thankfully because we have agreed twice in a row recentley)that whatever stats you may or may not have, Paul Heffernan's play is not good enough or consistent enough in the championship.You cant just score goals as a striker for Doncaster in this league,you have to work hard,stay switched on,make runs to free up others and contribute to general team play and that is something you will not get from Heffs no matter how much of a run he gets its not his natural game...SOD knows this and thats why he will be on his way this summer..
We have to try and find a compromise between the two,a player who has the ability to do these things but wont cost the earth..Difficult i know and what we will probabley end up with is a player who isnt as prolific as Sharp but works much harder than Heffs...
I wish Heffs all the best,hes been fantastic for us but league 1 is where he needs to be at this stage of his career...
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Oh for god's sake dont get BST onto politics,you could put a red rosette on a donkey and he would vote for it.lol :P :P
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wing commander wrote:
In a way your both right...Sharp is hoping for the best deal he can get and he is unlikely to get that here, so despite how good he has been,it will put too much pressure on the club financially to secure him.
However i have to say to bst (thankfully because we have agreed twice in a row recentley)that whatever stats you may or may not have, Paul Heffernan's play is not good enough or consistent enough in the championship.You cant just score goals as a striker for Doncaster in this league,you have to work hard,stay switched on,make runs to free up others and contribute to general team play and that is something you will not get from Heffs no matter how much of a run he gets its not his natural game...SOD knows this and thats why he will be on his way this summer..
We have to try and find a compromise between the two,a player who has the ability to do these things but wont cost the earth..Difficult i know and what we will probabley end up with is a player who isnt as prolific as Sharp but works much harder than Heffs...
I wish Heffs all the best,hes been fantastic for us but league 1 is where he needs to be at this stage of his career...
Opinions again spadger. In my opinion, Heffernan did all the things that you're asking for last season. He looked a consumate centre forward, making intelligent and selfless runs, bringing other players into the game AND scoring goals.
But that's just my opinion. As you know, I prefer cold hard facts
Fact is that when Heffernan had a run last season, our form was superlative. Better than it ever was at any stage this season by the way. Are you suggesting that from Boxing Day onwards last season (when we averaged better than 2 points a game) Heffernan was carried by the rest of the side and did nothing more than score goals?
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big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:
BillyStubbsTears wrote:
big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:
You'd make a decent politician mind.
AS would you. You just cannot concede that you might actually be wrong. I'm quite happy to see the alternate point of view are you?
One thing that gets me is how people constantly refer to the past. The anti Tory lot do it by referring to things that happened 15-20 years ago and in football we get arguments saying but he did it in that season. That's all irelevant in reality. Things move so quickly.
Now back to critising the government, that's all I seem to do in my studies these days.
I'm perfectly happy to concede that I'm wrong. I do it regularly. But I need persuading by well constructed argument, not by the assertion of an opinion.
I'm assuming that you didn't study History ay University? Neither did I by the way, but during my adult life, I stumbled across the amazing finding that the world didn't start the day that I first developed an opinion. Things happened before that, and by understanding what had happened previously, you can get a better handle on both the present and the future.
Regarding football strikers, this means that if they have a excellent, consistent, career-long record then barring aging and injuries, you might expect them to continue to be excellent and consistent. That's why I consider previous seasons when I pass judgement on a player, rather than the last half a dozen games.
Regarding politicians, it means that if a political philosophy has led to the area that I love and live in being shit on from a great height several times in the past, there is a strong chance that it would lead to the same result in the future. That's why I think about the Tories' historical record when I pass judgement on them.
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You could argue this point all day Billy,wether we are right or wrong the vast majority of people dont think that Heffs is good enough to play as our main striker..
However SOD is the only man whoe's opinion matters and he appears to have made his mind up..Who knows Heffs might not show the correct attitude in training,he may not follow instructions on the pitch,his constant niggles and slow ability to return to form or they may just not like each other.Whatever the reason Heffs career at Doncaster is coming to a end wether Billy stays or goes...
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BillyStubbsTears wrote:
Opinions again spadger. In my opinion, Heffernan did all the things that you're asking for last season. He looked a consumate centre forward, making intelligent and selfless runs, bringing other players into the game AND scoring goals.
But that's just my opinion. As you know, I prefer cold hard facts
Fact is that when Heffernan had a run last season, our form was superlative. Better than it ever was at any stage this season by the way. Are you suggesting that from Boxing Day onwards last season (when we averaged better than 2 points a game) Heffernan was carried by the rest of the side and did nothing more than score goals?[/quote]
Something I do agree with, last season he was good, he hasn't done that this season when he's played though. I still don't buy the \"he hasn't had a run\" line, he's had a run at Bristol and come back here and done nothing.
I guess we'll have to disagree. On history, thank god I haven't studied that for the last 4 years.
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wing commander wrote:
Oh for god's sake dont get BST onto politics,you could put a red rosette on a donkey and he would vote for it.lol :P :P
Not quite, but I did vote for Martin Redmond in the 80s, which amounts to the pretty much the same thing.
Not that the Tories have any 4x2s in their ranks eh?
I'll give you an example: Tory shadow minister who has a safe seat down south. I was at University with him. Proper Tim Nice But Dim type. Thick as two short planks, but with a path laid out fro him from public school, through university, into the Guards and the City and then to a safe Tory seat.
There was a move by the Student Union to rename the Union Building after Nelson Mandela. Typical posturing student politics, but remember, it was at the time when Mandela was still in prison and this was all about raising the profile of the issue.
TNBD got on his high horse and organised a student revolt to overturn this decision. He called an Extraordinary Union Meeting to debate it. He stood up on the stage and waffled on about Mandela being a terrorist etc. Then he said, \"Anyway. Why should it only be Mandela who's put forward as a saint. There have been other people who have suffered in South Africa. Have you ever heard of Steve Riko?\"
Silence.
\"There, I thought you wouldn't have heard of Steve Riko.\"
Stiffled giggles in the 1000 strong audience.
\"What?! Why are you laughing? It's not funny you know. Steve Riko was killed by the police and you're laughing about it!\"
Someone shouts out from the back, \"It's BIKO you thick f**k,\" and the place collapses in laughter.
And THAT chap, my friends, will be in the Cabinet if the Tories win the election.
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wing commander wrote:
You could argue this point all day Billy,wether we are right or wrong the vast majority of people dont think that Heffs is good enough to play as our main striker..
However SOD is the only man whoe's opinion matters and he appears to have made his mind up..Who knows Heffs might not show the correct attitude in training,he may not follow instructions on the pitch,his constant niggles and slow ability to return to form or they may just not like each other.Whatever the reason Heffs career at Doncaster is coming to a end wether Billy stays or goes...
I don't doubt that his career here is two matches away from being finished. He was effectively out the door the day we signed Sharp. In fact the writing was on the wall 12 months ago when he was dropped as soon as we were practically safe - only to be brought back into the side sharpish when we then lost a couple on the bounce and arses started quivering again, and then be dropped again after he scored in the match that made us mathematically safe. It was clear from that moment on that he wasn't wanted.
Tell you what though, I'm in awe of your ability to find out that the \"vast majority of people don't think Heffernan is good enough.\" You do opinion polls in your spare time?
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BillyStubbsTears wrote:
big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:
Bit of a contradiction there. You say we weren't doing anything without Sharp as front man. Before him it was Heffs, now it's Heffs again yet you think it's an error to let him go?
Once again it's a shame that people don't do a bit of research before giving us their opinions.
1) Heffernan started only 2 games at the start of the season. We got two creditable draws.
2) in the 5 matches we played before Sharp came, we got 5 points.
3) In Sharp's first 5 starts we got 3 points.
4) In Sharp's first 9 games we got 7 points.
5) Sharp scored just 2 goals in his first 7 starts.
The point being? Sides and strikers often need time to get going. We did NOT suddenly catch fire when Sharp arrived. If anything we went backwards for a short while. And Sharp dud NOT suddenly look like a world beater when he arrived. It took him a while to settle in to the side, reach match sharpness and start taking chances.
For some reason, you seem to assume that Heffernan should be judged by different criteria. If Heffernan does not start to score immediately, or if the team doesn't click immediately when he us picked, you take this as evidence that he is not up to this level. Be consistent laddie.
bst u go on about heffs he did well last year but thats when it was last year,things chance in that time and your stats mean nothing really unless you go on this year
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Like you say Billy we all have tales,i know the wife of current Labour Mp who worked here many years ago.They were that skint she had a second job here as a cleaner after hours.He would pick her up on the way home from squash and sit in the car park for an hour, when i suggested to him that if he came in and helped her she could leave early he refused as it was against his principles to work and claim benefit..He never did a stroke for the 6 years she worked here despite me offering him work on more than one occasion.He was a member of the socialist workers which made me laugh because he wouldnt do a days work..And like your Tory billy he also held a highish position in the labour goverment...
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And no i dont do stats,but i do read forums,talk to rovers fans in pubs and matches and wether my unnofficial opinion poll is wrong, i would still strongly suggest that my comment that the vast majority of Rovers fans \"dont think he is good enough to be our main striker\" is correct however good he has been in the past..
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If these two players had stayed fit we would have definetly made the playoffs. If we had not loaned these two players we would have been in the bottom four.Our results in the last period prove that. We have also missed Brian Stock,at his best, which we have not seen this season. If Billy had still been fit, after the Barnsley game we would have got the points we required to be in the playoffs. Pre season will be interesting, can we keep our manager? Will we sign the players we need to maintain our position aswell as progress? Will we have to wait till End of July ,August again to find out. Will we be told again by the JR and the Board we can aim for the playoffs yet signing of quality players is not there.
I totally agree.
Also this season, we have missed JOC playing out wide.
As good as JOC has been at centre back, I cant wait for him to return to full back so that he can give us that other dimension when he runs forward with the ball.
Chambers makes some good runs off the ball, but Jimmy is different gravy to Chambers running down the line with the ball :)
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Ooh, I've been missing this. I love a good \"is Paul Heffernan up to it\" debate.
For me, the issue is not 'who you would rather have in the team out of Heffs and Sharp,' because obviously it would be Sharp. The issue for me is what we do at the end of this season when the pair of them skidaddle.
I'd love to be proved wrong, but for me, the chances of us:
a) being able to afford to get Billy Sharp here permanently
b) being able to hold off interest from bigger clubs to get Billy Sharp here permanently,
are nil.
That leaves us, going into pre season, with Waide Fairhurst, Lewis Guy and James Hayter, the latter two being out of contract. That to me doesn't look like a forward line up that will get us enough goals to have another good season at this level, so we're obviously going to need somebody else. Quality Championship strikers are like gold dust, especially if you have a very limited budget, so my concern would be, if we are going to let Heffernan leave (for nowt,) and splash out a bit on a new striker, how do we know that they are going to do a better job for us than Heffs can do when he is firing on all cylinders. Buying/loaning another striker could turn out to be a huge waste of our (limited) resources if we already have a bloke there who can do a job. This could have a knock on effect, because then we come to the dilemma where we need to strengthen other areas of the team, but the budget won't stretch far enough because we've blown half of it on an area of the team where we already had a potential solution.
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As SOD mentioned in an interview a couple of weeks ago, SOD had a meeting with Heffs at the start of the season to talk about terms for a new contract. They failed to agree terms with SOD stating that they were miles apart in their valuations.
The fact that SOD sat down to talk terms at the start of the season, when apparently a lot of the squad are even now still waiting to find out if they will get a contract seems to indicate that SOD does rate Heffs.
So apart from all the other arguments about whether Heffs is capable of being a good marksman at this level (which he obviously is), the fact remains that according to SOD the terms Heffs wanted were not good value for the club.
Not being party to what these figures are, we can assume than SOD thinks he can get a better player for the same money*.
*edit: or that we just couldn't afford him full stop.
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Snods Shinpad wrote:
Not being party to what these figures are, we can assume than SOD thinks he can get a better player for the same money.
I hope we can. And fingers crossed said player will knock in better than 1 goal every other start, like Heff did a short time ago.