Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: big fat yorkshire pudding on September 30, 2014, 07:56:39 am
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29410247
Thoughts on this?
Personally I'm not a fan of this so called rule, it's crazy. I also don't think Paul Ince saying this helps them given his god awful record as manager.
I'd like to hope our board wouldn't care what skin colour our manager or proposed manager had. Surely all any owner cares about is winning and thus wants to appoint the best candidate?
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Powell is a decent manager who is black and he will never be out of work. Ince talks shit, he can't accept he is no good.
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I think its ridiculous. Paul Ince is just trying to cling onto anything possibloe that will get him an interview. Do they really think all Chairman out there dont hire managers because they're black?! Do they not take into consideration that they're are considerably more white coaches than black? Total nonsense IMO
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I also think it is ridiculous. I wouldn't want to be the token black but a club has to interview just to tick a box on a diversity form. It is almost racist in itself.
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It just smacks of playing the racist card
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Shock Ince playing the race card, he will never accept he's a shower of shit at managing. If your a good manager you will get a job regardless of skin colour.
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Strikes me as tokenism. In any case, Paul Ince has had plenty of opportunities to be a manager and hasn't made the most of them. I'd feel more sympathy for someone who has the playing experience, has done his badges and can't get an interview. Though I'm sure that applies with white coaches as well as black ones.
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There is lots of evidence that hirers consciously or sub-consciously discriminate against people who are from backgrounds that are different to theirs. People like to think that they are open and fair minded, but the evidence is that most of us are not. What the Rooney Rule does it to try to break through this by requiring that a black coach would be given a chance to make a case. No more than that. The idea is that, over time, two things would happen. Firstly, excellent black coaches would have more chance of getting hired. Secondly, the presence of more role models would lead to more black people having the aspiration to become managers, thereby increasing the pool of potential talent.
No one is saying that a crap black manager should be given a job over an excellent white one. Just that black coaches should be given a chance to make a pitch.
Of course it's a shame that Paul Ince should be wheeled out, when he was a crap manager. But that doesn't chance the basic sense behind the Rooney Rule.
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There is lots of evidence that hirers consciously or sub-consciously discriminate against people who are from backgrounds that are different to theirs. People like to think that they are open and fair minded, but the evidence is that most of us are not. What the Rooney Rule does it to try to break through this by requiring that a black coach would be given a chance to make a case. No more than that. The idea is that, over time, two things would happen. Firstly, excellent black coaches would have more chance of getting hired. Secondly, the presence of more role models would lead to more black people having the aspiration to become managers, thereby increasing the pool of potential talent.
No one is saying that a crap black manager should be given a job over an excellent white one. Just that black coaches should be given a chance to make a pitch.
Of course it's a shame that Paul Ince should be wheeled out, when he was a crap manager. But that doesn't chance the basic sense behind the Rooney Rule.
Thanks for explaining what was stated in the article in the OP
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There is lots of evidence that hirers consciously or sub-consciously discriminate against people who are from backgrounds that are different to theirs. People like to think that they are open and fair minded, but the evidence is that most of us are not. What the Rooney Rule does it to try to break through this by requiring that a black coach would be given a chance to make a case. No more than that. The idea is that, over time, two things would happen. Firstly, excellent black coaches would have more chance of getting hired. Secondly, the presence of more role models would lead to more black people having the aspiration to become managers, thereby increasing the pool of potential talent.
No one is saying that a crap black manager should be given a job over an excellent white one. Just that black coaches should be given a chance to make a pitch.
Of course it's a shame that Paul Ince should be wheeled out, when he was a crap manager. But that doesn't chance the basic sense behind the Rooney Rule.
Thanks for explaining what was stated in the article in the OP
The article in the original OP is about a spat between Tony Kleanthous and Greg Clarke about this subject not being raised at the recent FL meet at Walsall.
You obviously didn't read it.
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There is lots of evidence that hirers consciously or sub-consciously discriminate against people who are from backgrounds that are different to theirs. People like to think that they are open and fair minded, but the evidence is that most of us are not. What the Rooney Rule does it to try to break through this by requiring that a black coach would be given a chance to make a case. No more than that. The idea is that, over time, two things would happen. Firstly, excellent black coaches would have more chance of getting hired. Secondly, the presence of more role models would lead to more black people having the aspiration to become managers, thereby increasing the pool of potential talent.
No one is saying that a crap black manager should be given a job over an excellent white one. Just that black coaches should be given a chance to make a pitch.
Of course it's a shame that Paul Ince should be wheeled out, when he was a crap manager. But that doesn't chance the basic sense behind the Rooney Rule.
Thanks for explaining what was stated in the article in the OP
See, I'll admit to sub-conscious bias.
Every time I see your name in a header, I instinctively expect the content of the post to be pointless shite. I've tried to be fair to you, but I've failed.
Maybe we should have an RJ Rule to make sure you get a fair hearing.
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There is lots of evidence that hirers consciously or sub-consciously discriminate against people who are from backgrounds that are different to theirs. People like to think that they are open and fair minded, but the evidence is that most of us are not. What the Rooney Rule does it to try to break through this by requiring that a black coach would be given a chance to make a case. No more than that. The idea is that, over time, two things would happen. Firstly, excellent black coaches would have more chance of getting hired. Secondly, the presence of more role models would lead to more black people having the aspiration to become managers, thereby increasing the pool of potential talent.
No one is saying that a crap black manager should be given a job over an excellent white one. Just that black coaches should be given a chance to make a pitch.
Of course it's a shame that Paul Ince should be wheeled out, when he was a crap manager. But that doesn't chance the basic sense behind the Rooney Rule.
Thanks for explaining what was stated in the article in the OP
The article in the original OP is about a spat between Tony Kleanthous and Greg Clarke about this subject not being raised at the recent FL meet at Walsall.
You obviously didn't read it.
Taken from the article with a link aswell to a further story.. http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/14856861
What is the 'Rooney Rule'?
The 'Rooney Rule' was established in 2003 and named after Dan Rooney, owner of the Pittsburgh Steelers and the chairman of the NFL's diversity committee. It requires NFL teams to interview at least one black or ethnic minority candidate for head coaching and senior football operation opportunities that become available, as part of a transparent and open recruitment process.
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The main article was about the spat between two FA Council members. We all know what the Rooney rule is about, and in typical BBC fashion they provided a definition. That doesn't change what the article was about.
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Whether this is the right way to go about it, or not - you cant argue with the fact that proportionally the number of black managers (and coaches I may add) is significantly out of kilter with the number of black players playing in our leagues over the last 30 years. This will be down to unintentional bias (people have a perception of a good manager and hes probably not black), lack of opportunities as coaches (very white male dominated environment), lack of role models, and lets be honest with the age and background of many of our chairmen some degree of racism will exist in some quarters. If we want to be the best then this needs to change, one thing that really frustrates me is the number of foreign coaches plying their trade in our leagues - its as if we cant grow our own.... (perhaps were missing out on half our talent?)
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The main article was about the spat between two FA Council members. We all know what the Rooney rule is about, and in typical BBC fashion they provided a definition. That doesn't change what the article was about.
Bit of a sweeping statement there SM, I for one had no idea what it was :ohmy:
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It's interesting.
This argument has been prevalent in many areas of the job market for many years now, particularly the public sector. I've always (apart from a couple of years) been a public sector worker. And not just with ethnic minorities, but also women/gays/transgender etc etc.
I will always remember the police actively recruiting in a gay magazine for the first time. I was aghast and mortified. Now it's fully acceptable and it shouldn't make a difference, but in some job sectors it still does (not the public sector I don't think)
When you look at the number of black footballers in the English Leagues and then the number of black coaches/managers there is a huge imbalance. I'm not for a minute saying that is because of racism, but there is an imbalance
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How many non black managers are currently plying their trade in "Black" countries.
How many "Black" managers manage "Black" national sides.
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The main article was about the spat between two FA Council members. We all know what the Rooney rule is about, and in typical BBC fashion they provided a definition. That doesn't change what the article was about.
Bit of a sweeping statement there SM, I for one had no idea what it was :ohmy:
Yep Sorry, that's not quite what I meant. BST took some time to expand on the reasoning for the rule and was criticised for doing so, which was uncalled for.
It's been discussed endlessly in football circles for a few years and I've seen it on lots of agendas due to its success in the USA, named after a certain Dan Rooney, who was/is the owner of Pittsburgh Steelers.
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How many non black managers are currently plying their trade in "Black" countries.
How many "Black" managers manage "Black" national sides.
I don't understand the relevance of the question - please expand?
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First bit is relevant as I see the managerial posts in uk have nothing to do with colour more, more availability of "Non Black", therefore would probably be same ( in reverse ) in Nigeria, Bukino Faso, Senegal, etc.
So, its ok for A,B or C to say "black managers are not given opportunities in UK", its nothing to do with colour, more availability and perceived success rate.
Second bit, how many of the "National sides" of the aforementioned countries have "Black" managers, in site of their probably being a plethora of them in their leagues.
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Ince doesn't get jobs because he's a shit manager.
Powell, Hughton and the late Keith Alexander are/were good at their jobs.
Ability should be the first call, not race, gender, sexuality, nationality, whatever.
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1. But those countries don't have lots of home grown white football players over the last 30 years.
If you accept that most good managers are ex-professional footballers then surely the number of managers should reflect the number of players of any particular colour? you state 'More availability of 'non black' - but that is the point, because of the number of black footballers we have we should expect to see more black managers and coaches - if not, why not? Personally I think the issue is more deep rooted than just management - to be a good manager you need to serve your time as a coach - and we don't have enough black coaches.
2. International football is dominated by the rich European leagues (expect for a couple south american teams - but even thier best players soon come to Europe), the best managers are perceived to come from the bigger clubs (more experience etc) and these are white dominated.
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Ability should be the first call, not race, gender, sexuality, nationality, whatever.
Ability should be paramount DESPITE any of the above differences. We have to be careful though that it is not judged in favour of them BECAUSE of it.
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1. But those countries don't have lots of home grown white football players over the last 30 years.
If you accept that most good managers are ex-professional footballers then surely the number of managers should reflect the number of players of any particular colour? you state 'More availability of 'non black' - but that is the point, because of the number of black footballers we have we should expect to see more black managers and coaches - if not, why not? Personally I think the issue is more deep rooted than just management - to be a good manager you need to serve your time as a coach - and we don't have enough black coaches.
2. International football is dominated by the rich European leagues (expect for a couple south american teams - but even thier best players soon come to Europe), the best managers are perceived to come from the bigger clubs (more experience etc) and these are white dominated.
Ok then. IF 25% of footballers are of "Black" roots, you say 25%( of the 25% ) so 1/16 ( 6 in number )of managers pro rata should be the same.
That always assumes that for any vacant post 25% of applicants are black.
I wonder in the past, when a managerial vacancy has arisen at DRFC, how many applicants were black, or come to think of it, how many applicants at any club , for any managerial post were black/Brown/Yellow.
How can you say "International football" in places like Nigeria, BF, Senegal, etc are dominated by European leagues. That is not correct at all. Of course the best players will inevitably end up in Europe, as the pay is infinitely greater, but it still does not answer as to why there are no ( or few ) Black coaches or managers in predominantly black countries.
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There is an imbalance when you see over recent decades how many successful black footballers there have been, in proportion to the population as a whole.
Just my opinion but surely the problem lies deeper in the individuals initially getting coaching badges etc? By the time you get to the football league (unless you are called Hockaday) you're likely to be something of a "name" anyway, regardless of skin colour.
People from all backgrounds should be encouraged to apply. Who the boards then select should be down to footballing reasons alone. I couldn't care less what colour/nationality our next manager has, as long as they do their best for the football.
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Surely knowing the numbers of black players taking badges or wanting to progress into management compared to white players would maybe show a different result.
A minority to start with, a smaller percentage of these players wanting to coach will obviously increase the difference between the two groups.
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I'm not suggesting that the problem just lay with chairman or recruiting clubs, some good points on here about availability of suitable applicants whatever the origin. The problem is fundamentally deeper - why do black players not see a suitable career in management, why aren't they taking coaching badges, involved with grass roots etc - is it because of lack of role models, the industry is dominated by white males and perceived as too difficult to get on etc. Positive discrimination does work - look at the police and public services, they reflect the society they serve much better nowadays. It's a short term fix, that long term allows natural stability. However I'm not convinced guaranteeing black applicants interviews is the solution either, in fact it does more damage if poor quality applicants are successful unfairly over others. Positively supporting ex players into coaching may be the answer, but its a long term solution - and we want everything today. Now where have I heard that before???
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1. But those countries don't have lots of home grown white football players over the last 30 years.
If you accept that most good managers are ex-professional footballers then surely the number of managers should reflect the number of players of any particular colour? you state 'More availability of 'non black' - but that is the point, because of the number of black footballers we have we should expect to see more black managers and coaches - if not, why not? Personally I think the issue is more deep rooted than just management - to be a good manager you need to serve your time as a coach - and we don't have enough black coaches.
2. International football is dominated by the rich European leagues (expect for a couple south american teams - but even thier best players soon come to Europe), the best managers are perceived to come from the bigger clubs (more experience etc) and these are white dominated.
Ok then. IF 25% of footballers are of "Black" roots, you say 25%( of the 25% ) so 1/16 ( 6 in number )of managers pro rata should be the same.
That always assumes that for any vacant post 25% of applicants are black.
I wonder in the past, when a managerial vacancy has arisen at DRFC, how many applicants were black, or come to think of it, how many applicants at any club , for any managerial post were black/Brown/Yellow.
How can you say "International football" in places like Nigeria, BF, Senegal, etc are dominated by European leagues. That is not correct at all. Of course the best players will inevitably end up in Europe, as the pay is infinitely greater, but it still does not answer as to why there are no ( or few ) Black coaches or managers in predominantly black countries.
But that is the point - so why aren't 25% of DRFC applicants black if that's the proportion of players - that is the question we should be asking. Are we missing out on that 25% of potential talent or whatever the ratio is.
You misunderstood my point about 'international football' - I was trying to explain that the world football market is dominated by European teams (wealth, best players and perceived best managers) hence when an African (for example) international or top club management post comes up they will often look to a successful European club manager (often white and nearing their sell by date) and appoint them over one their home grown club managers. I'm not denying where the current quality of management lies, more a case of what potential are we missing out on, because they either never get the chance or are put off before they start.
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Idler.
From the BBC link
The PFA says about 18% of players on their coaching courses are black or from other ethnic minorities
There are 192 Uefa Pro Licence owners in England, and 14 of those are black coaches
About 25% of players in the professional game are non-white
There were five black managers in English professional football last season but, of Chris Hughton, Chris Powell, Paul Ince, Chris Kiwomya and Edgar Davids, only Powell now has a job
So, that's 18% on coaching courses and 7.3% of UEFA badge holders are black/ethnic minority, but only 5.4% of PL/FL clubs had black/ethnic minority managers last year and only 2.2% currently do.
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Ability should be the first call, not race, gender, sexuality, nationality, whatever.
Ability should be paramount DESPITE any of the above differences. We have to be careful though that it is not judged in favour of them BECAUSE of it.
BB.
Again, just to clarify (because facts have a habit of getting obscured on emotive topics like this) no-one is suggesting that weak black coaches should be given jobs over strong white coaches. No-one.
The point is that there is a wealth of evidence that, given equal credentials, black people don't even get shortlisted as often as white people, across a range of different jobs. Rooney's Rule is all about making sure that art least one black candidate gets a hearing. Nothing more, nothing less.
In simple terms, if you are white, you ALREADY have an unfair advantage. This is trying to redress the balance.
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So, 25% are NON WHITE, that's to say Black, Brown, Yellow. The majority I assume are indeed BLACK. Although there are some "Arab" ( Brown ) players around, and the odd Japanese/Korean or similar origin. Lets say 20% Black.
192 Pro licence holders, 14 Black. (15%)
92 League clubs, 5 Black mangers (was ) tad over 5%
If 20% of clubs had Black Managers, that would be 19.
DO THEY APPLY for the posts, or are they waiting for a call.
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Ability should be the first call, not race, gender, sexuality, nationality, whatever.
Ability should be paramount DESPITE any of the above differences. We have to be careful though that it is not judged in favour of them BECAUSE of it.
BB.
Again, just to clarify (because facts have a habit of getting obscured on emotive topics like this) no-one is suggesting that weak black coaches should be given jobs over strong white coaches. No-one.
The point is that there is a wealth of evidence that, given equal credentials, black people don't even get shortlisted as often as white people, across a range of different jobs. Rooney's Rule is all about making sure that art least one black candidate gets a hearing. Nothing more, nothing less.
In simple terms, if you are white, you ALREADY have an unfair advantage. This is trying to redress the balance.
Or a perception of that, BST..
What may be a more revealing stat is what proportion of the totality of non-white applicants actually get called for interview, and compare that to the pre-interview rejections of white candidates.
If the rejections are proportionally similar, then logic says it isn't a race issue. If proportionally more non-whites don't even get called for interview than the white applicants, then that is much more worrying IMHO.
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So, 25% are NON WHITE, that's to say Black, Brown, Yellow. The majority I assume are indeed BLACK. Although there are some "Arab" ( Brown ) players around, and the odd Japanese/Korean or similar origin. Lets say 20% Black.
192 Pro licence holders, 14 Black. (15%)
92 League clubs, 5 Black mangers (was ) tad over 5%
If 20% of clubs had Black Managers, that would be 19.
DO THEY APPLY for the posts, or are they waiting for a call.
WR,
192 Pro licence holders and 92 league clubs. Whatever the maths at least 50% would be unemployed anyway.
So, taking the 14 with pro licences, removing the unemployed would mean 7 should be in employment. We had 5, which is significantly higher than the figure most are using.
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So, 25% are NON WHITE, that's to say Black, Brown, Yellow. The majority I assume are indeed BLACK. Although there are some "Arab" ( Brown ) players around, and the odd Japanese/Korean or similar origin. Lets say 20% Black.
192 Pro licence holders, 14 Black. (15%)
92 League clubs, 5 Black mangers (was ) tad over 5%
If 20% of clubs had Black Managers, that would be 19.
DO THEY APPLY for the posts, or are they waiting for a call.
WR,
192 Pro licence holders and 92 league clubs. Whatever the maths at least 50% would be unemployed anyway.
So, taking the 14 with pro licences, removing the unemployed would mean 7 should be in employment. We had 5, which is significantly higher than the figure most are using.
So it appears the figures tell us the amount of black managers, is actually more or less proportionate to the number of pro licence holders, and Ince is spouting b*llocks as usual
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Thank feck for that.
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No Filo
The numbers te us that even in an exceptional year, there was still a smaller percentage of black managers than black badge holders. And this year, 2.2% of PL/FL managers are black compared to 7.3% of badge holders.
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Black badge holders? Can they park on double yellow lines?
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Black badge holders? Can they park on double yellow lines?
No only on black ones. ;)
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1. But those countries don't have lots of home grown white football players over the last 30 years.
If you accept that most good managers are ex-professional footballers then surely the number of managers should reflect the number of players of any particular colour? you state 'More availability of 'non black' - but that is the point, because of the number of black footballers we have we should expect to see more black managers and coaches - if not, why not? Personally I think the issue is more deep rooted than just management - to be a good manager you need to serve your time as a coach - and we don't have enough black coaches.
2. International football is dominated by the rich European leagues (expect for a couple south american teams - but even thier best players soon come to Europe), the best managers are perceived to come from the bigger clubs (more experience etc) and these are white dominated.
Ok then. IF 25% of footballers are of "Black" roots, you say 25%( of the 25% ) so 1/16 ( 6 in number )of managers pro rata should be the same.
That always assumes that for any vacant post 25% of applicants are black.
I wonder in the past, when a managerial vacancy has arisen at DRFC, how many applicants were black, or come to think of it, how many applicants at any club , for any managerial post were black/Brown/Yellow.
How can you say "International football" in places like Nigeria, BF, Senegal, etc are dominated by European leagues. That is not correct at all. Of course the best players will inevitably end up in Europe, as the pay is infinitely greater, but it still does not answer as to why there are no ( or few ) Black coaches or managers in predominantly black countries.
You've ruined my nights entertainment, I was going to watch Mind Your Language followed by Till Death Us Do Part, but don't feel the necessity now.
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1. But those countries don't have lots of home grown white football players over the last 30 years.
If you accept that most good managers are ex-professional footballers then surely the number of managers should reflect the number of players of any particular colour? you state 'More availability of 'non black' - but that is the point, because of the number of black footballers we have we should expect to see more black managers and coaches - if not, why not? Personally I think the issue is more deep rooted than just management - to be a good manager you need to serve your time as a coach - and we don't have enough black coaches.
2. International football is dominated by the rich European leagues (expect for a couple south american teams - but even thier best players soon come to Europe), the best managers are perceived to come from the bigger clubs (more experience etc) and these are white dominated.
Ok then. IF 25% of footballers are of "Black" roots, you say 25%( of the 25% ) so 1/16 ( 6 in number )of managers pro rata should be the same.
That always assumes that for any vacant post 25% of applicants are black.
I wonder in the past, when a managerial vacancy has arisen at DRFC, how many applicants were black, or come to think of it, how many applicants at any club , for any managerial post were black/Brown/Yellow.
How can you say "International football" in places like Nigeria, BF, Senegal, etc are dominated by European leagues. That is not correct at all. Of course the best players will inevitably end up in Europe, as the pay is infinitely greater, but it still does not answer as to why there are no ( or few ) Black coaches or managers in predominantly black countries.
You've ruined my nights entertainment, I was going to watch Mind Your Language followed by Till Death Us Do Part, but don't feel the necessity now.
Don't forget 'love thy neighbour'!!
Seriously though, there almost certainly is a racism issue in football, all the talented black players around and so few black coaches - something definitely needs to be done about it. But Paul Ince getting on the bandwagon makes my blood boil - face it guvnor.....you're just a sh*t manager and whether you're black or white or yellow or chuffing green, you're just not up to it! Nothing at all to do with racism - You're not a manager now cos you're crap at it!
:boxing:
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Unfortunately there is a racist issue throughout the whole of society, not just football. Personally I'm sick of having to apologise for the antics of our ancestors but until racism is an historical term to describe primitive man then I'm afraid I'm going to have to go on apologising and try and make things even for everyone. It used to be called positive discrimination and it's got to be done until race is not an issue.
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Just to confuse things more . I wonder what % of ENGLISH managers run our top teams given the prevalence of foreign managers in the game ?
This is not to deflect from the question that the OP raises and I personally agree that whichever way you play with the percentages ; there are definitely NOT enough black managers on the game.
Some can make as many false stats as they like but your eyes can never deceive you.
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Just to confuse things more . I wonder what % of ENGLISH managers run our top teams given the prevalence of foreign managers in the game ?
This is not to deflect from the question that the OP raises and I personally agree that whichever way you play with the percentages ; there are definitely NOT enough black managers on the game.
Some can make as many false stats as they like but your eyes can never deceive you.
Black managers ON the game ? That's linking to an even more spurious claim.... 😉
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Just to confuse things more . I wonder what % of ENGLISH managers run our top teams given the prevalence of foreign managers in the game ?
This is not to deflect from the question that the OP raises and I personally agree that whichever way you play with the percentages ; there are definitely NOT enough black managers on the game.
Some can make as many false stats as they like but your eyes can never deceive you.
Black managers ON the game ? That's linking to an even more spurious claim.... 😉
Well spotted Redrover 45.....looks better that way doesn't it ? ;)