Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on June 28, 2016, 06:56:29 pm
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...to think of a header that adequately conveys my loathing for this Kitson.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p03zqwlc
Making his money over decades whipping up the attitudes that led to last week. And now he thinks he might have made a mistake.
There's not a circle of hell unpleasant enough for him. He's fostered bitterness, nastiness and divisiveness for decades. And now he's faced with the logical outcome.
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There's one thing I've noticed about BST, he's always got to be right .
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Are we really that jaded by 24-hour rolling news coverage, vines, Twitter and memes coming and dying out in a matter of weeks that discussion about genuine, world-changing events has a shelf-life of precisely one weekend? Get in the bin, the pair of you.
On topic, I find it interesting that Liverpool, where they don't sell The Sun, voted remain overwhelmingly. Very interesting and not at all surprising.
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It comes from having a brain able to see facts separated in time and space, associate them and draw rational conclusions. And Rigo, you were ok once. You had a heart and you had a soul. I admired you. So why this penchant now for stirring up trouble? Different opinions are things to be valued highly. They teach you even when you disagree with them. Aggression, simply for its own sake, is betraying your very soul man.
Cheers all
BobG
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Are you still banging on?
Last week, 33.5 million folk (or thereabouts) voted for a multitude of different reasons.
Some were in, some were out - just like the papers.
It's done with now. The only person 'whipping up attitudes' right now, on this website is you with constant threads such as this.
Even if something is sh!t, there comes a point where you have to stop moaning about it being sh!t and just get on with life.
I don't always agree with BST however the more stories are coming out from the leave side about regrets etc, about the misinformation, the more it needs raising.
Yes, the voters voted how they did, but as more detail of the mess of this referendum (from both sides I must add) emerges, then these same voters may vote in the next general election for a party which either offers to re-run the referendum or delays invoking clause 50 (or whatever the terminology is).
The more that comes out now, the better.
If you don't agree, fair enough - you can either comment or ignore.
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Since when has anger had a statute of limitations? Personally, I'll be as bloody angry about this for as long as I see fit, and I am really surprised to find that there are so many "sore winners" out there. People who, despite the overwhelming evidence that they have been totally lied to, trot out the "It was democracy, suck it up" line. I would genuinely love know why so many people are happy about the result, as it seems to me that the only winner in all of this has been Boris and Gove.
This whole thing has been a farce of epic proportions, and I think that both sides should be seething.
See also: It's a forum. If you don't like a topic, post, or poster, there are plenty of other topics for you to contribute on.
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Personally, I'll be as bloody angry about this for as long as I see fit,
This and how MK Dons came to be granted a FL place!!
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For anyone who hasn't seen this, he nails it again...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh0ac5HUpDU
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People voted on their own preferences - entirely the right thing to do. After that, there's no right or wrong in the argument.
No right or wrong in misleading the electorate????
People may have voted according to their own preferences - and we agree that that is the correct course of action - but what if those preferences were made on misinformation??
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See Rigo? You just totally and completely proved the point.
BobG
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This would be my point also, IDM. If, as Farage has argued (and the Leave campaign backed up), that millions of people voted out because of immigration, there must be millions of people who are furious that nothing is going to change. If racist abuse has increased 540% since the referendum result was announced, how is that going to get better when it sinks in that people have voted for nothing?
And what of that £350 million that was supposed to be going to the NHS? Same again. Etc, etc, etc...
As I said, I think we all should be very angry indeed.
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And even worse IDM, what if the people now holding power are unable to fulfill the 'promises' made to the Remain supporters and we dont halt the free movement of labour and still accept EU law? Quite a few more people will feel cheated and what will happen then?
Until we know where the 'on' is were are supposed to move to, then there is going to be a fair bit more debate to be had.
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Good for you Rigo. I never thought you would lose sleep. Why would I? And tbh, I don't know why you mentioned it anyway. Nobody has the slightest interest in your, or my, sleep patterns. It's just another example of the consequences of whatever has happened to you. It's clearly badly affected your judgement, your thinking and your aggression. I hope it's recoverable because you used to be worth reading - except when you made silly bets about publicly eating b*llocks of course!
Cheers
BobG
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People voted on their own preferences - entirely the right thing to do. After that, there's no right or wrong in the argument.
No right or wrong in misleading the electorate????
People may have voted according to their own preferences - and we agree that that is the correct course of action - but what if those preferences were made on misinformation??
Both parties were misleading. That's life.
It's just like a courtroom too. You've got two parties wanting a result - and both will exaggerate everything to try and get that result, basically to uphold their reputation.
The truth is somewhere in between what you hear from both sides, and you usually have to decipher it for yourself.
No it's not. In a courtroom you can appeal the result and ask for a retrial if new information comes out about the other side lying. Ask Ched Evans.
Here there is no-rerun. Which is why people are complaining.
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I am embarrassed and ashamed to be English since that abomination happened last week.
Neither myself , my wife or kids aged 20 and 23 have ever been so devastated by a vote.
We have evil in our midst now, wrecking and spoiling things. Racism and xenophobia are ok. Ignorance rules. Oswald Moseley couldn't do this in the thirties, and the NF couldn't in the 70s, but we have just seen a nasty right wing uprising, whipped up by a Nazi and an ambitious Etonian.
I will fight this for as long as I live, so keep on 'banging on ' BST.
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People voted on their own preferences - entirely the right thing to do. After that, there's no right or wrong in the argument.
No right or wrong in misleading the electorate????
People may have voted according to their own preferences - and we agree that that is the correct course of action - but what if those preferences were made on misinformation??
Both parties were misleading. That's life.
It's just like a courtroom too. You've got two parties wanting a result - and both will exaggerate everything to try and get that result, basically to uphold their reputation.
The truth is somewhere in between what you hear from both sides, and you usually have to decipher it for yourself.
No it's not. In a courtroom you can appeal the result and ask for a retrial if new information comes out about the other side lying. Ask Ched Evans.
Here there is no-rerun. Which is why people are complaining.
It's done though. At some point you have to accept it or you'll drive yourself mad with anti-feeling and make yourself miserable.
If you get run over by a bus tomorrow, will you really care about the EU anymore?
We're here. We're alive. Lets just live and breathe it because, really, nobody posting on a football forum of a third-rate Football League team, is going to properly effect what goes in parliament. They're just pantomime figures we see on a TV.
Yeah, we had one vote. So did 45+ million others in this country.
Rigo, I was involved in a march that brought down a government. I met a man who was elected President of his country after many years in jail protesting against a corrupt government. I have seen first hand what people power can do - if enough people do it.
If the discussions on this forum help to enourage just one person to get involved in political campaigning to make the country/world a better place, then it will be worthwhile. Maybe it will be you Rigo?
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Rigo, where the f**k has this holier than thou attitude sprung from?
You really have no idea about how to deal with other people's emotions do you?!
This idea of democracy that you keep going on about - ie that the vote has happened - also means that in this country at least, there is free speech.
And a "3rd rate football team" supporters have just as much right to an opinion on political matters and their vote counts as much as the next persons..
So for pity's sake get down of your self presumed pedestal and accept folks have different views and are free to express them!
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Mick Hucknall?
The hollies surely?
How about "we don't have to take this crap"? I'll leave you to work out who wrote that lyric..
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People voted on their own preferences - entirely the right thing to do. After that, there's no right or wrong in the argument.
No right or wrong in misleading the electorate????
People may have voted according to their own preferences - and we agree that that is the correct course of action - but what if those preferences were made on misinformation??
Both parties were misleading. That's life.
It's just like a courtroom too. You've got two parties wanting a result - and both will exaggerate everything to try and get that result, basically to uphold their reputation.
The truth is somewhere in between what you hear from both sides, and you usually have to decipher it for yourself.
No it's not. In a courtroom you can appeal the result and ask for a retrial if new information comes out about the other side lying. Ask Ched Evans.
Here there is no-rerun. Which is why people are complaining.
It's done though. At some point you have to accept it or you'll drive yourself mad with anti-feeling and make yourself miserable.
If you get run over by a bus tomorrow, will you really care about the EU anymore?
We're here. We're alive. Lets just live and breathe it because, really, nobody posting on a football forum of a third-rate Football League team, is going to properly effect what goes in parliament. They're just pantomime figures we see on a TV.
Yeah, we had one vote. So did 45+ million others in this country.
By that silly argument we should never have had a new referendum at all because we had one in 1975 and that was it, done, accept it, bugger off and don't complain because you have to accept it.
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How about this for a fresh idea Rigo? Don't f*cking read or post about things you're not interested in. And if you're trying to come across as a Kitson, you're doing a good job.
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Doubt it. I'll be chilled out, rolling my eyes, thinking 'this lot have too much time on their hands' - and that was my thoughts on both sets of busybody's who were out 'campaigning' last week.
If it weren't politics, it'd be something else.
As Mick Hucknall put it; 'Sometimes, all you need is the air that you breathe'.
Then crawl back under your stone of indifference and let those of us who are interested in things talk about them without your condescending comments.
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How do I ignore a poster?
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Doubt it. I'll be chilled out, rolling my eyes, thinking 'this lot have too much time on their hands' - and that was my thoughts on both sets of busybody's who were out 'campaigning' last week.
If it weren't politics, it'd be something else.
As Mick Hucknall put it; 'Sometimes, all you need is the air that you breathe'.
Then crawl back under your stone of indifference and let those of us who are interested in things talk about them without your condescending comments.
Condescending?
I'm just very grateful for what I've got. I'm alive, fit, healthy - simple things which, IMO, are the best things you can have.
Why don't you follow your own advice and 'just get on with life', or doesn't that apply to you?
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Doubt it. I'll be chilled out, rolling my eyes, thinking 'this lot have too much time on their hands' - and that was my thoughts on both sets of busybody's who were out 'campaigning' last week.
If it weren't politics, it'd be something else.
As Mick Hucknall put it; 'Sometimes, all you need is the air that you breathe'.
Then crawl back under your stone of indifference and let those of us who are interested in things talk about them without your condescending comments.
Condescending?
I'm just very grateful for what I've got. I'm alive, fit, healthy - simple things which, IMO, are the best things you can have.
Would you feel the same if members of your own family now face an uncertain future in the country they have come to know as home, as a result of a flawed vote?
No?
Well don't come on here and tell folks to move on who do face uncertain futures!
I don't advocate personal abuse so I hold my tongue...
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Are we really that jaded by 24-hour rolling news coverage, vines, Twitter and memes coming and dying out in a matter of weeks that discussion about genuine, world-changing events has a shelf-life of precisely one weekend? Get in the bin, the pair of you.
On topic, I find it interesting that Liverpool, where they don't sell The Sun, voted remain overwhelmingly. Very interesting and not at all surprising.
I voted out cos sun told me ....
Get real, very nearly wiped my arse with the ballot paper with how both sides conducted themselves. # initforthemselves
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For the record, and back to my OP, this is what that odious Kitson was saying last week.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/1302001/10-reasons-why-you-must-vote-brexit-in-thursdays-crucial-once-in-a-lifetime-referendum/
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We've got air?
WTF?
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(http://pbs.twimg.com/media/Bherw_NCIAAvzsl.png:medium)
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Flawed? People knew there was a vote on a certain date. About 33.5 million of those folk went out and voted and it produced a result.
We'll still live in an enormously wealthy country in 5/10 years. We've got air, food, water and live a very high quality of life compared to many other countries spread throughout the world.
With all the revelations since the referendum and backtracking over what was said in the campaign, of course the vote may have been flawed - not the vote count, but folks' reasons for voting.
And yet again you neglect to answer my question about if it was your family under threat.
We've got air?
WTF?
Can you not be happy that you're alive instead of wanting that little bit more?
There are a lot worse things out there than losing a referendum and the ramifications of that (whatever the ramifications may turn out to be - for good/worse).
Well, my family is under threat so of course I am going to be angry that the vote has been influenced by misleading information, and the ramifications thereof...
In 5 or 10 years time some people quite close to me may not be able to live in this country, regardless of the "air" and being thankful that I am alive!
Get your head out of your self-opinionated arse, and instead of your I'm alright jack attitude, spare a thought for others??
I don't give a damn if we never agree, you just don't do me the courtesy of answering a question. You make my piss boil more than anything I have read on this forum over the years, and no, I am not exaggerating - including managers, owners, relegations etc..
So do us all a favour and, if you are not willing to engage in reasoned debate, just do one eh?
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Oh, and where I work, where I earn the money that pays my mortgage and buys all this lovely food you talk of, we have already lost potential business from a European client who is uncertain of trading with the UK only days after the referendum..
I should just let it lie should I??
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There was misleading information in the remain campaign which you're choosing to overlook. I'm sure I've said that it's nigh on impossible that you'll get a perfectly 'clean' campaigns - both could have been better and done with more dignity, but they weren't.
If you've got food, water, a roof over your head, and you're alive does anything else really matter? Whether you're in England, Kenya, Poland, Turkmenistan or Brazil.
It's the basics.
Stop blaming the 17.4 million people who voted out and ask yourself why they voted out - there's a multitude of reasons and there comes a point where you either have to get on with it, let it destroy you, or end up taking it to a war.
And what good does it destroying you or creating a war do? Nothing.
er, no, I never claimed the remain side wasn't misleading. I'm not blaming the voters, I'm blaming the campaigners.
Does anything else really matter?? Can't you read???? I think my family potentially being torn apart matters - well it does to me anyway!!!
Never mind the referendum, YOU choose to ignore questions and then tell folks to move on!
I've had enough. f**k off.
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This election, all it has done is it has brought out the small minority of racists, who look for any opportunity to show they're hatred. Every country has them!.
It hasn't been made a big thing of the note put on the polish building, saying they support them against such people.
Out of all the country, where is all this hate it's stirred up, because i don't see it, like always it's a minority. This was a vote on the nations opinion on what they want the country to be in the future.
The vote was leave, because i suspect many saw it as a better choice, for they're kids futures. They knew there would be a dodgy period, but thought in the long run, the country will be better for it.
I believe this, just like they do. Talk to the majority of people, they don't want immigration stopped, they want it controlled, not foisted on us, massive potential numbers our system can't cope with.
Nobody can deny the system is struggling already, nhs, schools. People wanted they're kids to leave school and have a chance of a job, and a country with similar values to when they grew up.
This decision opens the world up to opportunities, to trade and improve massively, while also trading with european friends, and also going on holiday to they're resorts, working in they're countries, none of this stops.
Our security will be strengthened by it being organised by our own government, while also sharing information with our neighbours.
At the minute some see our people as short sighted 'Little Englanders', i don't see that at all, i see a bigger chance to make the country stronger!.
The government can't blame the eu for everything any more, as they have done in the past, they will now be more accountable for decisions. The people will expect certain things, if not delivered, then they know, they could be out of a job!.
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Hasn't hate crime gone up by 500-odd percent in the last few days!? Just saying "It's a minority, it happens" isn't on at all. It shouldn't happen. It wasn't happening before.
None of what you say is supported by facts or reality whatsoever Sammy.
EDIT: When I say it wasn't happening before, what I mean is it wasn't happening anywhere near as much or as openly as it currently is.
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I see the super chilled, non-aggressive Rigomeister pops up on another thread without having offered us an explanation as to why he is sure the NHS will be better off outside the European Union.
Exactly the behaviour people predicted. Make a lots of noise, churn out a load of poorly constructed and contrary nonsense, react confrontationally when prompted to elaborate and then disappear only to pop up elsewhere and repeat the sequence.
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Rigo my friend. Have your balls dropped recently mate? I suspect they must have. It's about the only explanation I can think of for the unpleasant aggression with which you portray yourself these days. I imagine it'll calm down, eventually, but in the meantime, the generalisations you make, the evidence you ignore and the anger you radiate all suggest you've got a problem. I'm not tryring to be sarky or to score a point Rigo. That is an honest appraisal. if you carry on like this sooner or later you will end up regretting it.
Lol! I suppose there is one other possible explanation actually. Were you fed on crab apples when you were a kid? :)
Cheers
BobG
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Rigo my friend. Have your balls dropped recently mate? I suspect they must have. It's about the only explanation I can think of for the unpleasant aggression with which you portray yourself these days. I imagine it'll calm down, eventually, but in the meantime, the generalisations you make, the evidence you ignore and the anger you radiate all suggest you've got a problem. I'm not tryring to be sarky or to score a point Rigo. That is an honest appraisal. if you carry on like this sooner or later you will end up regretting it.
Lol! I suppose there is one other possible explanation actually. Were you fed on crab apples when you were a kid? :)
Cheers
BobG
I'm in a far better position now than I was quite a few years ago, but thanks for your in-depth analysis of someone your hardly know anything about, Bob.
You're still obviously in a bit of a dark place tho.
Since you've been posting back on here,do you know what you've brought to the table?
FA
Not even condiments,and you're eating out of your fingers.
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He's just a WUM, an attention seeking one at that.
Ignore him
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More psycho-analysts.
You guys are wasted posting on a football forum of an obscure lower league football club. You could be inventors, pioneers and plenty of other things considering how much you seem to know.
On a serious note, sorry to disappoint any of you, but I'm absolutely fine - especially since I stopped letting any of you lot actually bother me, character-strengthened, and a few other bits and pieces.
Keep going though, because it's laughable.
Please,please, don't turn up at my house with a baseball bat.
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More psycho-analysts.
Who needs to psycho-analyse? All it takes is the ability to read to know the quality of your contributions.
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Surely you are wasted on here too with everything you bring to the table?
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Imagine spending this much time posting online about something you don't even like.
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You're a funny one Rigo. You insist that no-one here has the knowledge or the right to judge you, what you do or what you think.
Yet you pontificate (wrongly) on why I was angry in an exchange with you the other night. And now you post this.
You guys are wasted posting on a football forum of an obscure lower league football club. You could be inventors, pioneers and plenty of other things considering how much you seem to know.
How do you know that we're not?
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Not taking sides on this, but haven't any of you got better things to do? It's like a crèche on here these days.
Clearly Brexit has had an affect on this forum, roll on the start of the season and decent Rovers chat/banter!!
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Both sides lied end of maybe the leave side were better at it but they both lied,why are the remain voters not angry at there side for there blatant lies?
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Hasn't hate crime gone up by 500-odd percent in the last few days!? Just saying "It's a minority, it happens" isn't on at all. It shouldn't happen. It wasn't happening before.
None of what you say is supported by facts or reality whatsoever Sammy.
EDIT: When I say it wasn't happening before, what I mean is it wasn't happening anywhere near as much or as openly as it currently is.
Macho, It isn't on at all, this decision was always going to provide, total idiots with an opportunity to show how they really feel. We were all created equal in this life, but try explaining it to these men and women, who believe they are right in doing these things.
And the sad thing is, they spawn kids, and bring them up thinking the same. Round my local area, the shop keepers as far as i am aware, nothing like that has happened, but you see a wariness about them because they are asian.
It's really sad, as they are good people who serve the community well. I make it my way to say hello to those i don't usually talk to because i don't know them, or talk to the shop owner i talk to just as normal. Colour, nationality means nothing to me, i'm no better than these good people. In life people should be able to have opinions, whether you agree with them or not. But when it goes into physically and mentally bullying people, that is never right. When one set do it, it can lead to other weak minded people following suit.
What needs to happen, is that all communities are not happy with how they are being treated, and stand together. But people won't, because they don't want involving and getting, any trouble themselves.
I'm glad to say, i wasn't brought up that way. My dad was a rough and ready bloke, but we would not, have not sat down for a week if we gave any trouble to anybody.
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For anyone who hasn't seen this, he nails it again...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nh0ac5HUpDU
John Oliver is superb and the researchers on that programme should get a bonus
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Mick Hucknall?
The hollies surely?
How about "we don't have to take this crap"? I'll leave you to work out who wrote that lyric..
Style Council, Walls came tumbling down.
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Mick Hucknall?
The hollies surely?
How about "we don't have to take this crap"? I'll leave you to work out who wrote that lyric..
Style Council, Walls came tumbling down.
That's the Kiddie!!
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Many of us said this, and I know I had plenty of arguments in the real world before and since the referendum. But here you go, welcome to the future... God bless 'murica.
“What they [Political strategists Goddard Gunster] said early on was ‘facts don’t work’ and that’s it.
“The remain campaign featured fact, fact, fact, fact, fact. It just doesn’t work. You have got to connect with people emotionally. It’s the Trump success.”
I only hope that we don't find out that they overspent and broke Electoral Commission rules... How low have we sunk?
Fill your boots: http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/leave-donor-plans-new-party-to-replace-ukip-without-farage (http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/29/leave-donor-plans-new-party-to-replace-ukip-without-farage)
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Lipsy
I've only just caught that post and The Guardian article.
It chimes with this.
https://medium.com/@DuncanWeldon/britains-political-economy-is-changing-labour-needs-to-become-relevant-efd53bc2cf75#.oew35yimr
Maybe there's a BIG political re-alignment coming. Not Left and Right anymore but Globalist vs Isolationist?
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Or THIS one may be even sharper.
http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad.com/stumbling_and_mumbling/2016/06/control-beyond-left-and-right.html
Maybe it's about "control" vs "free markets"?
That would make more historical sense. We had free markets before the War. We had a more controlled society from 1945 to 1980. We swung back towards free markets in everything after that.
Maybe the real re-alignment might mean going back to more tightly controlled economies and societies?
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Haven't we just left the EU so that we can trade with the rest of the world in a free market?
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Haven't we just left the EU so that we can trade with the rest of the world in a free market?
There is no free market with the rest of the world. We've just decided to give up the one we did have with the rest of the EU countries!
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I have just had several weeks/months of people telling me something different! Unless by 'free' you only mean 'no customs duties' rather than 'the ability to trade with whoever you wish without restriction and government interference' - which is how I understood the Brexit stance?
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Wilts
And the free movement of people?
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Is that what defined the free market before the War Billy?
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Wilts.
No. You never step in the same river twice.
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I have just had several weeks/months of people telling me something different! Unless by 'free' you only mean 'no customs duties' rather than 'the ability to trade with whoever you wish without restriction and government interference' - which is how I understood the Brexit stance?
A Free Market has and always has meant Duty Free movement of goods. If you've believed Brexiters when they've said it's something different, that's your look out. You've been conned.
What 'restrictions and government interference' did you think they were talking about?
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That's not what google says:
free market - an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.
or from business directory:
Where buyers and sellers can make the deals they wish to make without any interference, except by the forces of demand and supply
an economic system where the government does not interfere in business activity in any way
www.businessdictionary.com/definition/free-market-economy.html#ixzz4DTMRwJ9N
www.businessdictionary.com/definition/free-market.html#ixzz4DTMBCXQQ
or Billy who equates it with free movement of people in post 72. He might need to clarify post 68 if he is using your definition.
The 'restrictions and government interference' I know they were talking about is the EU legislation. Your inference that I have been conned is making a big inference isn't it?
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Yes, well, that soon got into angels and pin heads territory.
The thrust of the articles I posted was more about the fact that there are accretions of political ideas emerging that are contradictory from a modern left-right perspective
That there are people who want an isolationist immigration policy, but a collectivist economics (nationalisation, rent controls). And others who want a socially liberal immigrant policy allied with an economically "liberal" policy.
In one of the political squares, you'd have the vertical sides running from "open borders" at the bottom to "closed borders" at the top and the horizontal sides running from "free market" at the right to "interventionist Govt" at the left.
Look at it in that light and the EU is middle bottom side. Interventionist in terms of setting the rules of the internal market, but free trade beyond that.
Recent Lab & Tory party policy has been a bit either side of the EU position.
UKIP is top right. Corbyn's Labour is bottom left. Many of the disaffected working class are probably top left.
Much of British business is bottom right.
If anyone has any idea where I'm going with this, feel free to help me out...
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That's not what google says:
free market - an economic system in which prices are determined by unrestricted competition between privately owned businesses.
or from business directory:
Where buyers and sellers can make the deals they wish to make without any interference, except by the forces of demand and supply
an economic system where the government does not interfere in business activity in any way
www.businessdictionary.com/definition/free-market-economy.html#ixzz4DTMRwJ9N
www.businessdictionary.com/definition/free-market.html#ixzz4DTMBCXQQ
or Billy who equates it with free movement of people in post 72. He might need to clarify post 68 if he is using your definition.
The 'restrictions and government interference' I know they were talking about is the EU legislation. Your inference that I have been conned is making a big inference isn't it?
OK, so we go with your definition.
There is NO free market anywhere in the world. Every government on Earth interferes in the forces of demand and supply. Being inside or outside the EU changes nothing in that respect. All that will happen is that EU regulations will be replaced by UK ones, in the same way UK regulations were replaced by EU ones in the past. Is there any EU legislation in particular that you object to that you think the UK won't repalce with similar legislation?
Customs Duties are by their very nature, anti-free market, so no BST, we didn't have free markets before the war as Protectionism was much more prevalent then.
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In my opinion we dont have a historical comparison to where we are now - or where we might be soon. The world has changed so much since 1973, the end of the Soviet Bloc, the rise of China and India and multinationals, how our economy will cope with them, I have no idea.
It was much simpler when we still had the Corn Laws - although I believe Glyn thinks they are still in place!
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The Poor Laws were pretty impressive too Wilts :) About time they were brought back don't you think?
BobG
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Well 28 countries in EU at the moment and 196 countries in the world so where's the bigger market 😈
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The Poor Laws were pretty impressive too Wilts :) About time they were brought back don't you think?
BobG
if we bring back the windows tax perhaps we can get windows 10 off our computers it'll still be curtains for andrea leadsom
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Well 28 countries in EU at the moment and 196 countries in the world so where's the bigger market 😈
Leaving the EU won't alter our trading relationship with the 196 one jot, it'll be exactly the same. Leaving the EU will put up trade barriers with the 26. Explain to me how that's good for Britain.
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In my opinion we dont have a historical comparison to where we are now - or where we might be soon. The world has changed so much since 1973, the end of the Soviet Bloc, the rise of China and India and multinationals, how our economy will cope with them, I have no idea.
It was much simpler when we still had the Corn Laws - although I believe Glyn thinks they are still in place!
What's that wilts? If you don't know what EU legistlation you object to, you only had to say so.
Oh, and just for your enlightenment, Protectionism is about different Duties levied on importsto protect the home businesses. I presume your wanting 'free market' would mean that you'd want to abolish Anti-Dumping Duty and let China flood the UK with cheap (subsidised) imports, undercutting and then destroying the UK's manufacturing base?
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Well 28 countries in EU at the moment and 196 countries in the world so where's the bigger market 😈
Leaving the EU won't alter our trading relationship with the 196 one jot, it'll be exactly the same. Leaving the EU will put up trade barriers with the 26. Explain to me how that's good for Britain.
That's why numerous countries outside the eu are clamouring to get trade deal negotiations started as quickly as possible.
Do you really think that say we left the eu on a set date that all trade with the eu will cease on that date because it wont
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Could the remaining EU countries be able to afford to not trade with us?
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Well 28 countries in EU at the moment and 196 countries in the world so where's the bigger market 😈
Leaving the EU won't alter our trading relationship with the 196 one jot, it'll be exactly the same. Leaving the EU will put up trade barriers with the 26. Explain to me how that's good for Britain.
Apart from those countries which already have a trade deal with the EU - we would fall out of those deals and have to renegotiate which can take years eg EU negotiations with India started in 2007 and have still not concluded.
Also, there is a shortage of trade negotiators around the world - according to this article from the FT, UK has 20 whereas the EU has 600. And it looks like the big accountants and lawuers will not be able/willing to second staff to the UK government.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmjF6y_XYAAiAmf.jpg)
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Well 28 countries in EU at the moment and 196 countries in the world so where's the bigger market 😈
Leaving the EU won't alter our trading relationship with the 196 one jot, it'll be exactly the same. Leaving the EU will put up trade barriers with the 26. Explain to me how that's good for Britain.
That's why numerous countries outside the eu are clamouring to get trade deal negotiations started as quickly as possible.
Yes, of course they're clamouring for trade deals - to replace the ones with them we already had with them through being a member of the EU that we're now abandoning!!!
Do you really think that say we left the eu on a set date that all trade with the eu will cease on that date because it wont
NOBODY has said that trade with the EU will stop. Why do people keep repeating this ludicrous crap? But the trade with the EU will be damaged because of the trade barriers and extra expenses that leaving the Single Market will put up!
Is this really that complicated to understand??
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Well 28 countries in EU at the moment and 196 countries in the world so where's the bigger market 😈
Leaving the EU won't alter our trading relationship with the 196 one jot, it'll be exactly the same. Leaving the EU will put up trade barriers with the 26. Explain to me how that's good for Britain.
Apart from those countries which already have a trade deal with the EU - we would fall out of those deals and have to renegotiate which can take years eg EU negotiations with India started in 2007 and have still not concluded.
Also, there is a shortage of trade negotiators around the world - according to this article from the FT, UK has 20 whereas the EU has 600. And it looks like the big accountants and lawuers will not be able/willing to second staff to the UK government.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CmjF6y_XYAAiAmf.jpg)
You're quite right, I forgot about the EC Preference agreements that we're throwing away by leaving the EU - whether we somehow manage to remain in the Single Market or not.
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Could the remaining EU countries be able to afford to not trade with us?
They'll trade with whoever they get best value for money from, that's the core nature of business. We've just voted to put up trade barriers, making our exports more expensive for them to buy. So they'll more than likely find somewhere else - probably from someone inside the Single Market with them - where they'll get that better value for money.
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Well 28 countries in EU at the moment and 196 countries in the world so where's the bigger market 😈
Leaving the EU won't alter our trading relationship with the 196 one jot, it'll be exactly the same. Leaving the EU will put up trade barriers with the 26. Explain to me how that's good for Britain.
That's why numerous countries outside the eu are clamouring to get trade deal negotiations started as quickly as possible.
Yes, of course they're clamouring for trade deals - to replace the ones with them we already had with them through being a member of the EU that we're now abandoning!!!
Do you really think that say we left the eu on a set date that all trade with the eu will cease on that date because it wont
NOBODY has said that trade with the EU will stop. Why do people keep repeating this ludicrous crap? But the trade with the EU will be damaged because of the trade barriers and extra expenses that leaving the Single Market will put up!
Is this really that complicated to understand??
Why the aggression Glyn it's your viewpoint it doesn't mean that my viewpoint is crap or your viewpoint is difficult to understand it's just different to mine
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What you fail to understand, though, is I'm not giving you an viewpoint or opinion, it is what will happen. I was an International Trade Officer with Customs for nearly twenty years, working with both UK and EC legislation and a specialist in Trade and Tariff regimes so I do know what I'm talking about.
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Could the remaining EU countries be able to afford to not trade with us?
They'll trade with whoever they get best value for money from, that's the core nature of business. We've just voted to put up trade barriers, making our exports more expensive for them to buy. So they'll more than likely find somewhere else - probably from someone inside the Single Market with them - where they'll get that better value for money.
Dont we import a lot of goods from Germany,so we could stop importing German goods and get better value elsewhere outside the EU.
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Could the remaining EU countries be able to afford to not trade with us?
They'll trade with whoever they get best value for money from, that's the core nature of business. We've just voted to put up trade barriers, making our exports more expensive for them to buy. So they'll more than likely find somewhere else - probably from someone inside the Single Market with them - where they'll get that better value for money.
Dont we import a lot of goods from Germany,so we could stop importing German goods and get better value elsewhere outside the EU.
Yes, but because whoever else we deal with will entail both Customs Duties and the costs of Customs clearance, they'll be more expensive than buying from the Germans now while we're in the Single Market together. Otherwise we wouldn't be buying from the Germans now, would we?
If we could get better value outside the EU, we'd be doing it already.
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OK, let's try a very simplified illustration of what I'm talking about.
I'm ignoring the costs of freight, insurance and customs clearances for simplification purposes.
Let's say the cost of manufacturing a car is £10,000.
We are in the Single Market.
We, as a car dealership, can buy a car from a German manufacturer for £10,000. Because we are in the Single Market, there is no Customs Duty due when the car is freighted across the UK border, so the cost of getting the car to our showroom is £10,000.
If we buy a car from an American manufacturer, when we import from them Customs Duty of 10% is liable when it crosses the UK border, so the cost of getting the car to our showroom is £11,000.
We leave the Single Market.
Now, whether we buy from Germany or the US, Customs Duty is liable and the cost of getting a car to our showroom from either is £11,000.
So now, yes, the US car is just as cheap to buy as the German car....but the cheapest you can import a car for has risen from £10,000 to £11,000.
And don't forget, that 10% has now also been slapped on the cost of any cars exported from the UK to the EU countries.
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Glyn..We can all cherry pick individual industries to suit our arguments..If it suits I will list the same in reverse for British manufacturing against the European countries with poorer economy's....I can think of 5 examples were we will be better off just of the top of my head..Horses for courses..My industry (steel) will be a lot better off outside the EU...
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What you fail to understand, though, is I'm not giving you an viewpoint or opinion, it is what will happen. I was an International Trade Officer with Customs for nearly twenty years, working with both UK and EC legislation and a specialist in Trade and Tariff regimes so I do know what I'm talking about.
Not going to dispute your background however you can't say it WILL happen it may happen it may not , in your opinion it will happen in my opinion once the I's are dotted and the t's are crossed it's not going to impact as much as is threatened, other countries want to trade with us and that makes a big difference
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What you fail to understand, though, is I'm not giving you an viewpoint or opinion, it is what will happen. I was an International Trade Officer with Customs for nearly twenty years, working with both UK and EC legislation and a specialist in Trade and Tariff regimes so I do know what I'm talking about.
Not going to dispute your background however you can't say it WILL happen it may happen it may not , in your opinion it will happen in my opinion once the I's are dotted and the t's are crossed it's not going to impact as much as is threatened, other countries want to trade with us and that makes a big difference
We have decided to become a non-EU country and so we will treated as one. This will happen because it's how non-EU countries are treated! My opinion doesn't matter, this is a FACT. Those of you who think we're going to get some super-duper special treatment just because we're British really need to join the rest of us on Planet Earth - you actually think we'll get better terms than the USA get??
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Glyn..We can all cherry pick individual industries to suit our arguments..If it suits I will list the same in reverse for British manufacturing against the European countries with poorer economy's....I can think of 5 examples were we will be better off just of the top of my head..Horses for courses..My industry (steel) will be a lot better off outside the EU...
I only used cars as an example because the Duty rate for them is 10% and it kept the calculations simple.
I'd seriously like to know the perspective of the steel industry. I've audited quite a few steel companies in Sheffield for Customs but none of them ever said anything about any difficulties with the EU.
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In my opinion we dont have a historical comparison to where we are now - or where we might be soon. The world has changed so much since 1973, the end of the Soviet Bloc, the rise of China and India and multinationals, how our economy will cope with them, I have no idea.
It was much simpler when we still had the Corn Laws - although I believe Glyn thinks they are still in place!
What's that wilts? If you don't know what EU legistlation you object to, you only had to say so.
Oh, and just for your enlightenment, Protectionism is about different Duties levied on importsto protect the home businesses. I presume your wanting 'free market' would mean that you'd want to abolish Anti-Dumping Duty and let China flood the UK with cheap (subsidised) imports, undercutting and then destroying the UK's manufacturing base?
You make a lot of presumptions Glyn.
Where in any of my posts do I say I object to any EU law?
Where do I say I 'want' a 'free market'? I am discussing what Billy wrote in post 68 and my view on it. To infer what 'I want' from anything I have written is a bit of a jump dont you think?
It's a bit like saying, 'this happened in Customs and Excise for the past 20 years - so it is going to happen for the next 20'. We have no idea what will happen in the future - we are in totally uncharted territory. We might scrap all our customs duties - or we might bring back the Corn Laws, who knows?
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What you fail to understand, though, is I'm not giving you an viewpoint or opinion, it is what will happen. I was an International Trade Officer with Customs for nearly twenty years, working with both UK and EC legislation and a specialist in Trade and Tariff regimes so I do know what I'm talking about.
Not going to dispute your background however you can't say it WILL happen it may happen it may not , in your opinion it will happen in my opinion once the I's are dotted and the t's are crossed it's not going to impact as much as is threatened, other countries want to trade with us and that makes a big difference
We have decided to become a non-EU country and so we will treated as one. This will happen because it's how non-EU countries are treated! My opinion doesn't matter, this is a FACT. Those of you who think we're going to get some super-duper special treatment just because we're British really need to join the rest of us on Planet Earth - you actually think we'll get better terms than the USA get??
Glyn at the moment it is supposition it is NOT fact ;)
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What you fail to understand, though, is I'm not giving you an viewpoint or opinion, it is what will happen. I was an International Trade Officer with Customs for nearly twenty years, working with both UK and EC legislation and a specialist in Trade and Tariff regimes so I do know what I'm talking about.
Not going to dispute your background however you can't say it WILL happen it may happen it may not , in your opinion it will happen in my opinion once the I's are dotted and the t's are crossed it's not going to impact as much as is threatened, other countries want to trade with us and that makes a big difference
We have decided to become a non-EU country and so we will treated as one. This will happen because it's how non-EU countries are treated! My opinion doesn't matter, this is a FACT. Those of you who think we're going to get some super-duper special treatment just because we're British really need to join the rest of us on Planet Earth - you actually think we'll get better terms than the USA get??
Glyn at the moment it is supposition it is NOT fact ;)
Really? Did you know that imports from the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man have to have Customs Declarations when they enter the UK because they're not in the Single Market but are crossing the border into the Single Market. We are putting ourselves in the same position as them - having to make Customs Declarations to the rest of the EU countries when we leave the Single Market.
And don't say 'we don't know' what's going to happen as if the whole problem can be waved away with a waft of the hand. Wrong. You don't know. I do.
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We have no idea what will happen in the future - we are in totally uncharted territory. We might scrap all our customs duties - or we might bring back the Corn Laws, who knows?
Really? I didn't know we'd voted ourselves out of the WTO as well as the EU!
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What you fail to understand, though, is I'm not giving you an viewpoint or opinion, it is what will happen. I was an International Trade Officer with Customs for nearly twenty years, working with both UK and EC legislation and a specialist in Trade and Tariff regimes so I do know what I'm talking about.
Not going to dispute your background however you can't say it WILL happen it may happen it may not , in your opinion it will happen in my opinion once the I's are dotted and the t's are crossed it's not going to impact as much as is threatened, other countries want to trade with us and that makes a big difference
We have decided to become a non-EU country and so we will treated as one. This will happen because it's how non-EU countries are treated! My opinion doesn't matter, this is a FACT. Those of you who think we're going to get some super-duper special treatment just because we're British really need to join the rest of us on Planet Earth - you actually think we'll get better terms than the USA get??
Glyn at the moment it is supposition it is NOT fact ;)
Really? Did you know that imports from the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man have to have Customs Declarations when they enter the UK because they're not in the Single Market but are crossing the border into the Single Market. We are putting ourselves in the same position as them - having to make Customs Declarations to the rest of the EU countries when we leave the Single Market.
And don't say 'we don't know' what's going to happen as if the whole problem can be waved away with a waft of the hand. Wrong. You don't know. I do.
Oh Glyn, so much holier than thou "I know and youre just a unknowing pleb" The honest answer is simple you do not know your years of experience tell you the way It will probably go but it does not mean it will end up that way, take the referendum for example :) :) anyway just for you make sure you live within Donnys boundarys and then you can stay within the nice comfortable EU bubble
http://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/could-doncaster-be-fenced-off-with-scotland-and-stay-in-eu-after-brexit-vote-1-7998045
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What you fail to understand, though, is I'm not giving you an viewpoint or opinion, it is what will happen. I was an International Trade Officer with Customs for nearly twenty years, working with both UK and EC legislation and a specialist in Trade and Tariff regimes so I do know what I'm talking about.
Not going to dispute your background however you can't say it WILL happen it may happen it may not , in your opinion it will happen in my opinion once the I's are dotted and the t's are crossed it's not going to impact as much as is threatened, other countries want to trade with us and that makes a big difference
We have decided to become a non-EU country and so we will treated as one. This will happen because it's how non-EU countries are treated! My opinion doesn't matter, this is a FACT. Those of you who think we're going to get some super-duper special treatment just because we're British really need to join the rest of us on Planet Earth - you actually think we'll get better terms than the USA get??
Glyn at the moment it is supposition it is NOT fact ;)
Really? Did you know that imports from the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man have to have Customs Declarations when they enter the UK because they're not in the Single Market but are crossing the border into the Single Market. We are putting ourselves in the same position as them - having to make Customs Declarations to the rest of the EU countries when we leave the Single Market.
And don't say 'we don't know' what's going to happen as if the whole problem can be waved away with a waft of the hand. Wrong. You don't know. I do.
Oh Glyn, so much holier than thou "I know and youre just a unknowing pleb" The honest answer is simple you do not know your years of experience tell you the way It will probably go but it does not mean it will end up that way, take the referendum for example :) :) anyway just for you make sure you live within Donnys boundarys and then you can stay within the nice comfortable EU bubble
http://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/could-doncaster-be-fenced-off-with-scotland-and-stay-in-eu-after-brexit-vote-1-7998045
Well then, convince me how the Customs obligations of every other country on Earth can somehow be magically negotiated away during Brexit. Or will even be on the table, given that it's the default position for countries without Single Market trade agreement. And that the EU has no say in it anyway once we're out of the Single Market, so can't negotiate anything to do with it.
The ball's in your court, I'm open to be convinced.
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It's all fine. The Remain camp were just scare-mongering. The economy won't tank and prices won't go up... Oh.
http://www.channelweb.co.uk/crn-uk/news/2463866/dell-among-first-vendors-to-enforce-post-brexit-price-hikes (http://www.channelweb.co.uk/crn-uk/news/2463866/dell-among-first-vendors-to-enforce-post-brexit-price-hikes)
Still, wiv tekken our Kitsonry back. And I am sure that there's some kind of opportunity in all of this.
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Still, we're giving the Argies a beating again. Dun mek you proud wiv tekken us Kitsonry back.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/pound-sterling-argentine-peso-worst-performing-currency-eu-referendum-brexit-a7127246.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/pound-sterling-argentine-peso-worst-performing-currency-eu-referendum-brexit-a7127246.html)
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Interesting little comparison in the current issue of Private Eye:
£8.5bn - UK Taxpayers' net contribution to EU budget in 2015.
£10.8bn - UK Taxpayers' loss on RBS and Lloyds shares since Brexit vote.
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It's only money. What price taking your country back and taking it down the shitter in the process?
It's almost certainly only going to be the very poorest that get hurt the most - what's it matter, eh?
At least we can all be proud of our achievement.*
*For the absence of any doubt, I am being mightily sarcastic.
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Ah well, at least air is free to enjoy. ;)
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So how come you're such a Jeremiah these days then Rigo? :)
Cheers
BobG
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Rigo
Some of us do things like run companies that, you know, provide people with jobs and the country with income.
Some of us are already seeing contracts that were lined up in the Spring now being delayed and the likelihood that we'll have to lay off well qualified, well motivated, hard working efficient staff.
Tell you what, dipshit. If and when we do, I'll give you a bell. When we hand out the P45s, you can come and tell them to put a smile on their faces because they might be dead tomorrow.
This isn't a f**king game. It's people's livelihoods.
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What about the thousands of people who lost their jobs, and livelyihoods because of the EU rules and regulations.
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Rigoglioso - do you have a mortgage to pay? Or kids to feed and clothe? You can't just be so flippant as "oh well at least you're not dead" towards people who are facing all sorts of uncertainty at the moment. I'm lucky enough that my job is extremely unlikely to be affected, and even if it was I'd be able to find another similar job. It doesn't stop me having empathy for those who aren't in such a fortunate position.
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What about the thousands of people who lost their jobs, and livelyihoods because of the EU rules and regulations.
WOW!! That's a new one on me. Can you list ANY EU rules and regulations that have led to thousands losing their jobs and livelihoods?
Now, I can't provide well researched examples of why Brexit is a disaster in the same way others on here have done but here is one example that anyone of my generation can surely fathom.
How many cars did the average working class family have 45 years ago, before we joined the EU?, here's a clue - the term 'family car' was common parlance back then.
How many televisions did a family have, 2?, 3?, 4?, no almost certainly just the one. And had they been around at the time, how much of your wage was left over to throw at X-boxes and fancy mobile phones, laptops and the like. Almost everybody has these things now. We are vastly better off after 40 years in the EU so don't tell me how much better leaving might be when everything we actually know points to the opposite.
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What about the thousands of jobs lost in the fishing industry for a start
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Rigo
Your ignorance is spellbinding.
Of COURSE no f**ker knows what's going to happen in the medium term. Which is precisely why we can predict what is going to happen in the short term.
When there is huge economic uncertainty, companies hang onto their money. They don't invest it in R&D and in pushing new capability and products. Because they have no idea what the market conditions are.
But if companies hoard their money, it doesn't get spent in the economy. So other companies lose work. Domino effect.
Result: sudden and big slowdown in economic activity. For which, read, "perfectly competent and viable companies going out of business, staff being laid off and the whole country unnecessarily poorer."
This is precisely what is happening with my company already. We had projects lined up where big blue-chip companies were investing in R&D that we do to help them develop new products. And that investment has been put on hold. And as a result, we are clinging on by our fingernails.
Now, if you've actually got anything to add to this discussion beyond vacuous teenage-level inanities, feel free to contribute. Otherwise, shut the f**k up and let the grown ups get on with sorting out the mess that you have made.
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Rigo
You utter f**king idiot. Total refusal to engage with facts and causal arguments.
It's not about my idea of a "perfect country" you clown. It's about how f**king economies work. You trot out these vacuous nothings about no-one knowing what the effect will be. And I'm TELLING you what the effect already is. We're tipping into at least 2 years of significantly reduced economic performance. Something like £100bn of lost output. There's not a single serious economist doubting that.
And I, personally, can see that happening already to my company.
It's not about winning arguments and throwing smug, ignorant barbs at the other side. This is about real people with real lives and real families.
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What about the thousands of jobs lost in the fishing industry for a start
You were asked for the EU rules and regulations that caused job losses, not for a nebulous 'what about?'.
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Rigo
You utter f**king idiot. Total refusal to engage with facts and causal arguments.
It's not about my idea of a "perfect country" you clown. It's about how f**king economies work. You trot out these vacuous nothings about no-one knowing what the effect will be. And I'm TELLING you what the effect already is. We're tipping into at least 2 years of significantly reduced economic performance. Something like £100bn of lost output. There's not a single serious economist doubting that.
And I, personally, can see that happening already to my company.
It's not about winning arguments and throwing smug, ignorant barbs at the other side. This is about real people with real lives and real families.
If you're so intelligent and can see into the future, why don't you become a politician, join a party, and go for leadership.
You're so certain of how things are going to materialise, you'd surely make an awesome Prime Minister.
Or, in reality, are you just another person with an opinion - only one which likes to shove political opinions down others' throats until they either agree with you, stop listening, or vote the opposite way?
Much better than being smug and saying 'suck it up' to anyone with genuine concerns, whilst at the same time professing ignorance about what is happening, I'd have thought.
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The fact is that you, and other Norris Cole-type busy bas**rds with too much time on their hands who go out door-knocking, inadvertently have the opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve.
This isn't relevant to the discussion, but since you're determined to avoid that altogether anyway, that's not at all what canvassing is. It's about meeting supporters, putting your case across to the undecided and identifying voters. It's not about picking on people who don't agree and chiding them for hours until you wear them down.
I suspect you know this, but I suspect you know a lot of the things you've been told in this thread which is why you only ever respond with vacuous, empty fortune-cookie phrases about air. You have nothing to say but you say it loudly and often.
You've been presented with FACTS - with things that ARE happening now. Your non-argument that no one knows what will happen doesn't fly.
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If you find reality scary, that's your look out. It's what you voted for.
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There's some proper spoilt tantrums going on in here this week.
Crying because the people voted out and crying because the people want Corbyn. Democracy eh?
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I am embarrassed and ashamed to be English since that abomination happened last week.
Neither myself , my wife or kids aged 20 and 23 have ever been so devastated by a vote.
We have evil in our midst now, wrecking and spoiling things. Racism and xenophobia are ok. Ignorance rules. Oswald Moseley couldn't do this in the thirties, and the NF couldn't in the 70s, but we have just seen a nasty right wing uprising, whipped up by a Nazi and an ambitious Etonian.
I will fight this for as long as I live, so keep on 'banging on ' BST.
My thoughts entirely. Worrying times.
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And once again this scene pops into my head.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJh6EQ5gv7g
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Lipsy
Is that a portrayal of the conned leave voters' ignorance regarding the sinking ship that is now the UK, or is it one of the remain voters' who refute the opinion that the UK is a sinking ship that continues to take more people on board?
Just unsure what side of the argument that clip is supposed to ridicule, that's all.
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Imagine a pilot of an airliner seeing a violent thunderstorm ahead, the intensity of which he has never seen. He's no idea whether his aircraft is structurally capable of coping with the stresses that the extreme air currents in the storm might produce. In fact, several of his more gung-ho colleague have been telling him to ignore the "experts" who advise him to steer clear of such scenarios, because, "we're all fed up of listening to experts."
He reckons that taking a direct line through the storm might, possibly (although, who knows?) give him a shorter route back.
Should he fly straight on through the storm and judge at the end of it whether he made the right decision?
And if his plane breaks up in the thunderstorm, as he's falling 35,000 feet, should he keep his chin up and tell himself, "Ah well. We'll all be dead someday"?
Give me f**king strength.
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There's some proper spoilt tantrums going on in here this week.
Crying because the people voted out and crying because the people want Corbyn. Democracy eh?
Keep on fishing Wes. You'll be as good as Rigo at it one day.
And this, from someone who threw a strop and threatened to tear up his shiny new Labour Party membership card if the PLP invoke an entirely correct formal process, and who is firing off threats left right and centre on Twitter to democratically elected MPs. Consistency never has been your strong point spadger, has it?
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BST
What if the captain decided to put it to a vote, and asked the passengers to decide?
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BB,
I am firmly of the opinion that the country is going to Hell in a handcart, and no-one on the 'Leave' side of the argument on here or anywhere else has come up with anything concrete to sway my opinion on that. In fact, most of the Leavers I have spoken to mutter variations of "We're not coming out of the EU" or "We'll be fine. We were once a great nation" - nothing much beyond blind faith or bloody-mindedness as far as I can make out. Similarly, our 'great' politicians have frigged off like spineless fecks, presumably hoping that someone else cleans up the mess. As such, I don't really see any grounds for optimism at the moment.
That being said, I wasn't offering that clip to take the piss out of any side, tbh. It just came to mind.
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There's some proper spoilt tantrums going on in here this week.
Crying because the people voted out and crying because the people want Corbyn. Democracy eh?
Keep on fishing Wes. You'll be as good as Rigo at it one day.
And this, from someone who threw a strop and threatened to tear up his shiny new Labour Party membership card if the PLP invoke an entirely correct formal process, and who is firing off threats left right and centre on Twitter to democratically elected MPs. Consistency never has been your strong point spadger, has it?
That's my Labour to you Billy. Yours is dead.
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Bentley
Excellent point. That gets right to the heart of it.
Although Wesley and Rigo seem oblivious of this, democracy is about far more than placing a vote, washing your hands and saying "That's that."
It's about awareness of the consequences. When you win a vote, you have a responsibility to deal with the consequences. To be aware of them and to learn from them. Not just to say, "Nah, nah! f**k you, WE won."
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Lipsy
So what do we do then? Where do we go from here? Do we cancel the vote? Do we have a second referendum? Then a third if the vote goes 1-1, to make it a best of three scenario?
Or do we continue to divide the country into two, calling one half thick, and the other half (the slightly smaller one) supercilious?
Or do we just get on with it?
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BB,
We get on with it because we have no choice. However, those of us that are angry about the result and its consequences will continue to grieve and moan like f**k whilst we're working it through our systems. That's also our democratic right.
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Thing is, if leave hadn't won, Farage basically said that he'd keep pushing for another referendum until he won. Yet apparently remain voters are spitting the dummy out - would it be seen differently had the shoe been on the other foot?
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I think Lipsy's Ian Hislop video posted the other day sums it up quite succinctly, but -
When the Leave campaign have not only backtracked on every promise they made during the campaign AND all the politicians pushing for Leave have all f**ked off because they don't want to lead us through the consequences of the vote, in addition to the financial impact being felt by many (me included working in the arts) people are right to keep having this discussion. Not just in parliament, but on TV, on the streets, on Facebook and on fourth-tier football forums among others. Just asking people to pipe down and get on with it doesn't help anything.
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RedJ,
That's an argument that I have some sympathy with, mainly because the spineless toad said 52-48 to stay wouldn't be an acceptable result. However, we can't carry on chuffing about (best out of three?) until one side gets the result it wants. What I would say is that IF there was a massive change in opinion over the result then there is an argument that we should have another referendum OR let parliament debate and vote on our future in or out of the EU.
I don't really see that happening, to be honest.
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I'm not saying there should be another referendum. I don't like the result but there's nothing can be done about it now. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy.
Besides, does the Prime Minister have the authority to act upon this without an Act of Parliament?
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BB
Discussions like this which are going on all over the country are part of the process of "getting on with it".
That was the point of my post half an hour ago. Democracies don't stop at the ballot box. We ALL have to understand and learn from the consequences of decisions.
Go back to the aircraft analogy. Assume there was a vote of the passengers. They vote to fly through the storm. The plane crashes and a handful of people survive.
It would be perverse if they didn't learn from that experience if they were ever in the same situation again.
It's like that with democracy. If you don't follow the consequences of your decisions, how are you going to make rational decisions in future?
In a really vibrant democracy, these discussions never end. Much as Wesley and Rigo think they should.
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RedJ,
Oh yes, I love the hypocrisy of those telling me to shut up and get on with it, closely followed by being told that I don't appreciate or understand democracy.
As for what happens next. Like a good many things, I don't think that anyone's actually thought it through: http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-may-need-second-referendum-and-parliamentary-approval-says-lord-lisvane-former-commons-clerk_uk_5780b842e4b074297db31287?eyn5tdubybqmbcsor (http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/brexit-may-need-second-referendum-and-parliamentary-approval-says-lord-lisvane-former-commons-clerk_uk_5780b842e4b074297db31287?eyn5tdubybqmbcsor)
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Billy
I don't profess to know much about politics in general, and didn't really feel qualified to have a vote in the EU referendum. A lot of people I spoke with prior to the vote felt the same.
For what my unqualified opinion is worth, although I've took a more interested approach lately, I reckon that the initial downtrend in the country's finances was expected, and indeed forecast before the vote, and will stabilise to a better position.
There you go, a rare piece of positiveness.
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BB
Then watch what happens over the next few months and years. There were very clear arguments made on both sides about what the economic effects would be.
Watch the effects. See what happens to the value of the pound. To GDP. To unemployment. To trade.
You don't have to follow it second by second. But you can spend 5 minutes every month looking at the way they are going.
Then ask yourself whose predictions were closest to the way things turned out. And then ask yourself who you will trust in future.
If more people did that, we'd have a far healthier democracy, whichever side of the political argument was right or wrong in each case.
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Billy,
Going back to the aircraft analogy, and assuming there was a vote of the passengers and they voted to fly through the storm. Then the plane crashes and a handful of people survive.
What should the survivors do? Should they ridicule those who voted to fly through the storm, and call them stupid for being conned? Or should they reflect on the situation with a little more respect for those who when all is said and done, voted with the majority?
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You've got the analogy wrong BB.
What happens if they vote to fly into the storm and the plane starts creaking and groaning and bits start falling off?
Do those who voted to go round the storm just sit there watching the in-flight entertainment and thinking, "Well. The vote is the vote?"
Or are they justified in pointing out to their fellow passengers that the plane is groaning and creaking and bits are starting to fall off?
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For this whole analogy thing to work, surely the pilot would also have f**ked off before the plane got anywhere near the sodding storm.
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BB
Discussions like this which are going on all over the country are part of the process of "getting on with it".
That was the point of my post half an hour ago. Democracies don't stop at the ballot box. We ALL have to understand and learn from the consequences of decisions.
Go back to the aircraft analogy. Assume there was a vote of the passengers. They vote to fly through the storm. The plane crashes and a handful of people survive.
It would be perverse if they didn't learn from that experience if they were ever in the same situation again.
It's like that with democracy. If you don't follow the consequences of your decisions, how are you going to make rational decisions in future?
In a really vibrant democracy, these discussions never end. Much as Wesley and Rigo think they should.
On the contrary, I'm more than happy for these discussions to continue.
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The fact is that you, and other Norris Cole-type busy bas**rds with too much time on their hands who go out door-knocking, inadvertently have the opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve.
This isn't relevant to the discussion, but since you're determined to avoid that altogether anyway, that's not at all what canvassing is. It's about meeting supporters, putting your case across to the undecided and identifying voters. It's not about picking on people who don't agree and chiding them for hours until you wear them down.
I suspect you know this, but I suspect you know a lot of the things you've been told in this thread which is why you only ever respond with vacuous, empty fortune-cookie phrases about air. You have nothing to say but you say it loudly and often.
You've been presented with FACTS - with things that ARE happening now. Your non-argument that no one knows what will happen doesn't fly.
It's just over two weeks after the vote took place.
I'll wait for a few years to elapse from the day we actually leave the European Union before deciding whether the negatives outweigh the positives or vice-versa.
The company I work for has international dealings and we have already lost potential (new) business with a client in the EU, simply due to the uncertainty following the brexit vote.
My other half could in theory, face being deported after brexit. Probably won't, but again it's the uncertainty that is the problem.
The leave campaign lies have been exposed and the 2 most publicly known politicians (Farage and Johnson) have since buggered off and left anyone else to deal with the mess they helped to make.
Never mind, I'll enjoy breathing this free air before I might die next week.
Get off your f**king pedestal and show some empathy eh?
Top tip Rigo, don't look in a mirror - you might get into an argument with yourself!
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Feeble attempt at light-heartedness aside, just how happy are Leave voters that Theresa "Immigrants Must Go!" May or Andrea Loathsome will be the person to invoke Article 50 and, presumably, spearhead the negotiations that will ensue?
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Wesley.
See, it's a bit tough to have meaningful discussions when you're approach is "It's MY party now and anyone who thinks otherwise is a Judas who will be purged."
Or have I read you wrongly?
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You've got the analogy wrong BB.
What happens if they vote to fly into the storm and the plane starts creaking and groaning and bits start falling off?
Do those who voted to go round the storm just sit there watching the in-flight entertainment and thinking, "Well. The vote is the vote?"
Or are they justified in pointing out to their fellow passengers that the plane is groaning and creaking and bits are starting to fall off?
BST
If the passengers were pre-warned that the plane would initially groan and creak, and bits would start falling off, there would be less panic. If some passengers started shitting themselves though, disregarding the warning that it would happen, and began disrupting some of the calmer passengers by scaremongering, that would make the situation worse.
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I won't show any empathy for folk who've got no respect for democracy and other people's views.
Oh the irony. Be still my aching sides.
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BB
And...off we go again.
Right: Back out of analogy and back into the real world.
Financial markets. What they said before the Referendum:
Governor of the Bank of England (and pretty much every other sane economist): There will be a sharp and immediate devaluation of the pound on a Leave vote.
Boris Johnson: The Governor is talking nonsense.
http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/16/boris-johnson-dismisses-bank-of-englands-brexit-warning
Michael Gove: "I think the public is fed up of listening to 'experts'"
Result: Biggest ever one day drop in the value of the pound which has fallen to and remains at the lowest value against the dollar since the middle of the Miners' Strike.
That's a start.
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Feeble attempt at light-heartedness aside, just how happy are Leave voters that Theresa "Immigrants Must Go!" May or Andrea Loathsome will be the person to invoke Article 50 and, presumably, spearhead the negotiations that will ensue?
not sure how you mean that lips
but this makes interesting reading those bl00dy experts again - this time they were right
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-501637/Brown-signs-EU-Treaty-experts-warn-UK-surrender-control-immigration.html
"Buried in the Treaty's small print is a ruling that gives new rights to EU leaders to overturn decisions made by Britain's Immigration and Asylum Tribunal."
yet another mistake from the man who sold the world ( no sorry gold) and forgot about a referendum
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Bloody 'ell, the Guardian!
Seriously though BST, that's my point. I wonder how much damage Bank of England governor Mark Carney added to the slump by talking the economy down?
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Bloody 'ell, the Guardian!
Seriously though BST, that's my point. I wonder how much damage Bank of England governor Mark Carney added to the slump by talking the economy down?
Even more damage would have been done if Carney hadn't made the statement.
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CLH,
Theresa May's got form with dealing with the sensitive/thorny issue of immigration - you send in the vans with a soothing message.
(http://www.libertygb.org.uk/sites/default/files/blog/illegal-immigrant-van.jpg)
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BB
Where on earth do get this idea about "talking down" the economy?
You reckon the financial market people in Singapore and Tokyo woke up the morning after the vote and thought "Oooh! There's going to be a few folk mooching about in England because of what Mark Carney said. Better sell all our pounds"?
That "talking down the economy" line is one that's used by politicians to shut down debate. It goes like this.
1) I reckon that doing X will be good.
2) You reckon that doing X will be bad.
3) If we do X and it turns out well, I'm right.
4) If we do X and it turns out bad, I was still right but it's you to blame for talking doom and gloom.
If you insist on taking that approach, you can comfort yourself that you're always right. But there's no point ever discussing with anyone. Because you're always right.
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BST
I got the idea from the article you pasted. I'd never heard of it before that.
To answer your question, yes I do believe it's possible that Carney's comments had a negative effect.
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So when you wrote this, you'd never heard of the concept before.
http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=257994.msg643686#msg643686
Off you trot BB. I've got better things to be doing than this if this is the way you act.
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BST,
I thought you was on about the terminology 'talking down'. I've never referred to it as that before, and I certainly didn't say I'd never heard of the concept before. YOU SAID THAT!!!
I await your abject apology.
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Abject apology??? f**king hell, Mad Mick was BB all along.
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Abject apology??? f**king hell, Mad Mick was BB all along.
I hate being mistaken for Mad Mick, it makes my piss boil.
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It's only money. What price taking your country back and taking it down the shitter in the process?
It's almost certainly only going to be the very poorest that get hurt the most - what's it matter, eh?
At least we can all be proud of our achievement.*
*For the absence of any doubt, I am being mightily sarcastic.
And that's the sad part about it, many of those who will be hurt most are those who voted for it!
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Absolutely. I'm angry about it all on many levels (including the fact that those who voted to leave have been lied to!), but - the fact is - the very poorest people across the land are going to be hurt so very, very badly. That boils my piss.
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To answer your question, yes I do believe it's possible that Carney's comments had a negative effect.
Not as negative as the Bank of England saying nothing at all. Unless you have a better idea of what he should have said?
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Absolutely. I'm angry about it all on many levels (including the fact that those who voted to leave have been lied to!), but - the fact is - the very poorest people across the land are going to be hurt so very, very badly. That boils my piss.
The very poorest people across the land were already hurt so very, very badly. THAT's probably what swung the vote. What did they feel they had to lose?
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Absolutely. I'm angry about it all on many levels (including the fact that those who voted to leave have been lied to!), but - the fact is - the very poorest people across the land are going to be hurt so very, very badly. That boils my piss.
Indeed. I'm a 'Baby Boomer' and I'm one of the ones being blamed for Brexit. Yes, I have a comfortable final salary pension, yet I still voted for remain as that was, I believe, the best option for this country and especially for the young finding their way in the world. Some things are more important than the 'Me Me Me' culture of Thatcherism.
My parents, both in their 90's and who both served in the armed forces in WW2 also voted remain and are both saddened and amazed that the Europe they fought for, and the unity that came afterwards, has just been thrown away for a handful of unfulfillable promises.
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Absolutely. I'm angry about it all on many levels (including the fact that those who voted to leave have been lied to!), but - the fact is - the very poorest people across the land are going to be hurt so very, very badly. That boils my piss.
The very poorest people across the land were already hurt so very, very badly. THAT's probably what swung the vote. What did they feel they had to lose?
Everything.
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EH?
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EH?
If you don't understand the risks now BB, then you never will. Well, not until the shit really hits the fan. Hope you're not one of the poorest across the land, and I hope also that you care about those who are.
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The very poorest people across the land were already hurt so very, very badly. THAT's probably what swung the vote. What did they feel they had to lose?
So they voted out because they felt they had to lose everything?
Of course I understood the risks, that's why I voted to remain. My contribution to this thread isn't about why I voted the way I did, though, it's about why people voted out. The difference with me is I don't want to follow the trend and ridicule the leave voters. I want to discuss why they voted the way they did, and not in a patronising why did they vote the wrong way style.
I don't even know if they did vote the wrong way at this moment in time. People can only speculate.
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Probably civil unrest will happen soon, even more than is happening now. If we are a sinking nation according to some on this site why would we invite more to climb onto the lifeboat. Time to look after ourselfs and our kids future. We have people claiming family allowance and sending it back to familys abroad how is that ok? 2 yrs ago my partner died leaving me with a 2yr old and and a 4yr old to bring up, i had to pack my well paid job in to take care of my boys who i couldnt leave even for a minute because they thought i was leaving them. Things are a lot better now but when she died it took four months before i got any money to help me with the boys, I have always worked and payed tax but had to sell my car and other belongings to support us during this period, i cant help thinking if i had arrived from Poland or anywhere else to be honest i would have been given the support i needed.
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Things are a lot better now but when she died it took four months before i got any money to help me with the boys, I have always worked and payed tax but had to sell my car and other belongings to support us during this period, i cant help thinking if i had arrived from Poland or anywhere else to be honest i would have been given the support i needed.
You actually think that the government departments that have been systematically 'streamlined' and then underfunded under austerity - by the UK government, not the EU - till they are as shit as they are now are somehow magically efficient if you have a Polish name?
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Yes. When you have seen the system from my side then you can spout off.
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Had the EU reined in it's federal policy and promised or carried out the profound reforms for greater democracy that it is now talking about I and perhaps many others would have voted remain.
The EU seems to be splitting with Germany, Poland and a few more worried France and Italy are going to try and spend their way out of it with Germany footing the bill.
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Yes. When you have seen the system from my side then you can spout off.
You tell em mate. But there's no getting through to this blinkered lot, always right . Doesn't matter if it's football or politics.
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Yes. When you have seen the system from my side then you can spout off.
I have as I'm disabled. And I've worked inside the system so I've seen it from both sides - have you? Do I have your permission to spout off now?
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Yes. When you have seen the system from my side then you can spout off.
You tell em mate. But there's no getting through to this blinkered lot, always right . Doesn't matter if it's football or politics.
See above post. You might learn something. But no doubt you're too blinkered to.
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I won't show any empathy for folk who've got no respect for democracy and other people's views.
You just have no respect for other peoples' views, period!!
If you're talking about me, I respect democracy and I certainly respect that folks have different views. I might not agree, but I respect their rights.
BUT, I DO NOT respect the lies and hypocrisy shown by politicians - of all sides - but in particularly the shambles of the brexit campaign.
Note that I said " C A M P A I G N " , and not " V O T E "..
See, I spelled it out for you - perhaps you get it now???
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Yes. When you have seen the system from my side then you can spout off.
You tell em mate. But there's no getting through to this blinkered lot, always right . Doesn't matter if it's football or politics.
See above post. You might learn something.
The world is run by money men . They will still get rich and the poor will pay . What's to learn .
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Yes. When you have seen the system from my side then you can spout off.
You tell em mate. But there's no getting through to this blinkered lot, always right . Doesn't matter if it's football or politics.
See above post. You might learn something.
The world is run by money men . They will still get rich and the poor will pay . What's to learn .
In your case? Humility springs to mind.
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Yes. When you have seen the system from my side then you can spout off.
I have as I'm disabled. And I've worked inside the system so I've seen it from both sides - have you? Do I have your permission to spout off now?
Yes! go on mate, knock yourself out :headbang:
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The very poorest people across the land were already hurt so very, very badly. THAT's probably what swung the vote. What did they feel they had to lose?
So they voted out because they felt they had to lose everything?
Of course I understood the risks, that's why I voted to remain. My contribution to this thread isn't about why I voted the way I did, though, it's about why people voted out. The difference with me is I don't want to follow the trend and ridicule the leave voters. I want to discuss why they voted the way they did, and not in a patronising why did they vote the wrong way style.
I don't even know if they did vote the wrong way at this moment in time. People can only speculate.
BB - from my perspective I am not ridiculing leave voters, sorry if that comes across that way - I am more concerned with the campaign deceit. Everyone votes as they see fit.
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Glyn,
Do you think having worked inside the system, therefore knowing the ins and outs of benefits available, the ones that are not always offered to ordinary people who don't know they are entitled to them, has been somewhat of an advantage to you?
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I don't believe Darren's case is that unusal - it's my guess that's why the majority of people voted leave - because 'them was coming over ere gettin our jobs/benefits'.
It's been the same throughout history. Whenever there has been a period of economic downturn, blame it on the foreigners - rather than national government policy.
Do you really think that kicking out all the Polish people on benefits from this country will see your benefits go up Darren? Because it wont. Any saving there are will go on keeping taxes down for the richest - who then seek not to pay even that amount by tax avoidance.
The EU with all its problems gave security to our economy. Now that security has been (is in the process of being taken away) why are some people suprised at the uncertainty of the vacuum it has created?
The big shame of all this is that David Cameron could have allayed all Darren's fears and uncertainties by admitting this during the campaign - it's not the EU (or Polish people on benefit) making you struggle - it's me and my policies. Suprisingly he didn't. Jeremy Corbyn did - and was attacked for it by his own party - but that's a different conversation.
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What you are saying Wilts makes a lot of sense to me, its hard not to want to kick back in some way when you feel you have been kicked yourself.
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Glyn,
Do you think having worked inside the system, therefore knowing the ins and outs of benefits available, the ones that are not always offered to ordinary people who don't know they are entitled to them, has been somewhat of an advantage to you?
Not when the manpower has been decimated and more and more procedures are now computerised. Badly. Hence why claims take longer and longer to resolve, because there are fewer people employed to process them and it is much harder to actually talk to a real person for help making a claim. You cannot now go into a Jobcentre or DSS and talk to someone face to face. You now have to ring a phone number that you can't afford to pay for, wait for God knows how long to work your way through the queue until someone answers it (still costing someone who can ill afford to pay for it), and finally speak to someone who doesn't actually work for the DWP but is one of the gormless employees of Capita who aren't properly trained to process claims (and don't know the benefits system) and are continually pressured by Capita to get one call over as quickly as possible (how isn't important) and answer the next one as that's how they are paid by the government, regardless of the quality of service. I've had more different (and usually incorrect) advice from different call centre people than I care to remember.
There's the problem. The civil service and it's ethos of public service has been decimated. And it's been going on for a long time so each squeeze is even tighter than the last.
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It makes you wonder why 600,000 unemployed foreign immigrants find the country such an attractive option doesn't it?
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Because there aren't?
Because that stupidly propagated figure includes foreigners who are pensioners, stay-at-home mothers and students?
Sounds good though doesn't it?
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Rigo
You were on the winning side. You're doing plenty of squawking?
Remind me what your point was?
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It makes you wonder why 600,000 unemployed foreign immigrants find the country such an attractive option doesn't it?
No, it makes me wonder where that spurious number has sprung from when the Government don't even know the figures.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10361971/Britain-admits-it-has-no-figures-on-EU-welfare-tourist-numbers.html
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Click
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It makes you wonder why 600,000 unemployed foreign immigrants find the country such an attractive option doesn't it?
No, it makes me wonder how people can be so seduced by 'a gross and totally irresponsible misrepresentation of the facts' - when even The Sun admitted it wasn't true.
http://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2013/10/14/true-or-false/
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And when you peel away the lies, Leave voters just shrug and mutter summat about democracy. Every. Single. Time.
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It makes you wonder why 600,000 unemployed foreign immigrants find the country such an attractive option doesn't it?
No, it makes me wonder how people can be so seduced by 'a gross and totally irresponsible misrepresentation of the facts' - when even The Sun admitted it wasn't true.
http://eu-rope.ideasoneurope.eu/2013/10/14/true-or-false/
Three years ago! Surely the word would have gotten round by now..?
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Rigo
You were on the winning side. You're doing plenty of squawking?
Remind me what your point was?
I'm not doing any squawking.
The decision isn't going to effect me much because 1) life has taught me to move on quickly and adapt to change, 2) I live within my means and not beyond them and 3) I'm not pretending to be the next Tony Blair when posting on an internet forum.
The only ones with no respect for democracy, many of whom are probably living beyond their means are middle-class wannabees and door-knockers.
You are rather loquacious for someone who doesn't feel the need to make a point.
Strange character. I'm sure you're happy in your own little world though.
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You really are a deeply unpleasant person aren't you?
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You really are a deeply unpleasant person aren't you?
Not really. If you get wound up so easily, it'll increase the chances of a heart-attack.
And you appear to get wound up very easily.
How about you 'get over it' and 'move on' then?
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I won't show any empathy for folk who've got no respect for democracy and other people's views.
You just have no respect for other peoples' views, period!!
If you're talking about me, I respect democracy and I certainly respect that folks have different views. I might not agree, but I respect their rights.
BUT, I DO NOT respect the lies and hypocrisy shown by politicians - of all sides - but in particularly the shambles of the brexit campaign.
Note that I said " C A M P A I G N " , and not " V O T E "..
See, I spelled it out for you - perhaps you get it now???
Would you be squawking half as much if 'Remain' had won?
I would respond to posts on the forum as I saw fit, as I do with the football discussions etc.
If remain had won I would have been relieved more than anything else.. Thing is, remain means keeping the status quo - so if nowt changes then nowt changes, regardless of any political spin the remain campaign may have made.
But to leave is to make changes and to choose uncertainty. To me that is a more risky option which has been amplified by the dishonest campaign.
Oh, and please get off your "life is short" pedestal.. We know this, I would expect a huge proportion of forum users have suffered from loved ones passing too young, so I won't say about my experience there.
Oh, and stop being deliberately provocative by using words like "squawking".. I'm presenting my arguments quite clearly I think, so not "squawking" but hey, you can't or choose not to read my views properly, so what's the f**king point??
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It makes you wonder why 600,000 unemployed foreign immigrants find the country such an attractive option doesn't it?
No, it makes me wonder where that spurious number has sprung from when the Government don't even know the figures.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10361971/Britain-admits-it-has-no-figures-on-EU-welfare-tourist-numbers.html
I got that figure from the 2013 link below, and although perhaps my use of the word 'unemployed' was inappropriate, for which I am man enough to offer my abject apology (unlike some), the figure of 600.000 is quoted as all immigrants in the UK, some of whom are not seeking JSA.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjzmOrb-ujNAhVrK8AKHZkXA3sQFggjMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Ffullfact.org%2Feurope%2Fare-there-600000-unemployed-eu-migrants-uk%2F&usg=AFQjCNEE9oUUraTbIY70Ra7ND-Lbekr0oA&sig2=SJN3-tGp-7BxV3x36qgxkA
It still makes you wonder why 600,000 unemployed foreign immigrants find the country such an attractive option though doesn't it?
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I dunno. I just think that some people like to live in other places, or retire to warmer/different climes...
(http://harrisonbrook.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Brits-In-Europe.jpg)
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I dunno. I just think that some people like to live in other places, or retire to warmer/different climes...
(http://harrisonbrook.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Brits-In-Europe.jpg)
Makes you wonder why the UK is so bad they waIt makes you wonder why 600,000 unemployed foreign immigrants find the country such an attractive option doesn't it?
No, it makes me wonder where that spurious number has sprung from when the Government don't even know the figures.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10361971/Britain-admits-it-has-no-figures-on-EU-welfare-tourist-numbers.html
I got that figure from the 2013 link below, and although perhaps my use of the word 'unemployed' was inappropriate, for which I am man enough to offer my abject apology (unlike some), the figure of 600.000 is quoted as all immigrants in the UK, some of whom are not seeking JSA.
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjzmOrb-ujNAhVrK8AKHZkXA3sQFggjMAE&url=https%3A%2F%2Ffullfact.org%2Feurope%2Fare-there-600000-unemployed-eu-migrants-uk%2F&usg=AFQjCNEE9oUUraTbIY70Ra7ND-Lbekr0oA&sig2=SJN3-tGp-7BxV3x36qgxkA
It still makes you wonder why 600,000 unemployed foreign immigrants find the country such an attractive option though doesn't it?
Do you normally just grab headlines from websites without reading what's underneath them?
As for the 600,000...as the article says, they come here to study, to retire (like Brits do all over Europe too), and on top of that I would expect a sizable number to be married to a UK citizen...
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That - right there - is why the Leave vote won, Glyn...
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That - right there - is why the Leave vote won, Glyn...
The leave vote more likely won not because of the opposition to immigrants here to retire, or study, or marry a UK citizen, but because of the criminal and/or illegal element.
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That wasn't the point I was trying to make.
I was suggesting that reading headlines (after a 20-year+ anti-EU campaign) and not bothering to read what followed or check your facts is why Leave won.
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Are you suggesting I just read the headline and never read the article?
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Only you know the answer to that. I was making a general comment on the Leave vote, that's all. What you did or didn't do didn't feature in my thinking at all.
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So you're suggesting that all referendum headlines supported leave, and what was underneath them supported remain?
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82+% of all the referendum headlines were anti-EU. If you had bothered to read what I wrote, you would have seen that I actually said this to further qualify my point: "not bothering to read what followed or check your facts is why Leave won."
Though the YOUR was entirely unnecessary.
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Are you suggesting I just read the headline and never read the article?
That's the impression I got.
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So let me get this straight. 82+% of all the referendum headlines were anti-EU. So are you saying that what was underneath those headlines supported remain, and if people (like me) had read the whole article, they would have voted remain?
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Are you suggesting I just read the headline and never read the article?
That's the impression I got.
Well, making a good impression isn't one of your strong points is it??
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No, I am not saying that the headlines were anti-EU but the text was pro-Remain - what kind of fricked up logic is that? I was suggesting that some people only read the headlines, whilst others - who bothered to read the text - didn't bother to check their facts and swallowed the rest of the text's anti-EU stance.
Given that a number of the Sun's headlines and text and the Daily Mail's headlines and text were shown to be utter garbage (and they both had to post tiny, hidden away retractions), I don't think my assertion is way off the mark.
Hope that helps.
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Are you suggesting I just read the headline and never read the article?
That's the impression I got.
Well, making a good impression isn't one of your strong points is it??
So you're saying that you read the text under the headline on the site you linked to and STILL said that there were 600,000 EU immigrants? Or did you just read the headline and post it?
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I read 600,000 EU immigrants, yes.
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Bentley
Stop dicking about and think for a minute.
You have just proved the whole point in this thread.
You have subliminally picked up the editorial message that the papers wanted you to pick up.
You have re-quoted a figure of there being 600,000 unemployed EU immigrants in this country.
That figure had obviously got lodged in your mind. But it was wrong. You had been deliberately and brazenly misinformed by newspapers with a very definite axe to grind.
Whether or not you would have voted differently if those headlines hadn't been printed is not the issue. The issue is that wealthy, powerful forces who control most of the media have been doing this for many, many years, to the point that much of the population knows, just KNOWS these "facts" about immigration that turn out to be not remotely true.
Which brings us neatly back to the point behind my OP on this thread...
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I read 600,000 EU immigrants, yes.
You posted "600,000 UNEMPLOYED immigrants".
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The article said there are 600,000 EU immigrants not working in the UK. I put unemployed in the sense that they were not employed, and realizing the mistake apologised for it.
Your turn?.............
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Bentley
Stop for a moment and listen.
I'm not BLAMING you here. I'm neither looking for nor anticipating, nor requiring an apology.
But your mistake catches the problem right on the chin. The misunderstand that you made is PRECISELY what the papers want you to make.
That is the whole point. If you're genuinely interested in this discussion, you could address that point, instead of dicking around into irrelevant tangents.
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BST
I'll tell you what point I want to address on here, and it's not about taking sides,it's about the patronising way you and your cronies treat people who oppose you.
It wasn't a misunderstanding that I wrote unemployed instead of not employed. It was mistake, and one that has been taken completely out of context so as to deflect the direction of the argument.
So to get back to the point, if you and the other Righteous brother will allow, let's get back to the original point.
The point I was making was that it makes you wonder why 600,000 not employed foreign immigrants find the country such an attractive option doesn't it?
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BB
I am really, REALLY sorry if you've found me patronising.
If I've misunderstood you, then I apologise profusely.
Only, it's not the first time that you quoted or repeated stuff like this that turns out to be shite on a brief examination. I thought that maybe you needed nudging towards a bit of self reflection.
Anyway, as to why there are so many economically inactive EU immigrants in the UK, as I said before (and you ignored) many of them will be students making use of (and paying handsomely for) our world-leading higher education system. Many of them will be spouses of people who go out to work. Some of them will be retired.
Here's a couple of questions for you. Why is it that EU immigrants in this country have a higher EMPLOYMENT ratio than UK born nationals? Why do they pay more in taxes than they take out in public services? And how many newspaper headlines do you read screaming those facts?
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But there's something nagging me...
Oh aye. That's it.
BB
You got the information about the 600,000 immigrants from a website which was specifically written to point out that the claim that they were "unemployed" was incorrect and should not be repeated.
Then you repeated it. By accident.
At the risk of sounding patronising (and I'm really not being) maybe you should check a bit more before you hit "Post" next time? It'd save an awful lot of misunderstanding.
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I read the article about an hour before I posted. I mistakenly recollected the taboo word to be 'jobless', so instead use the term 'unemployed'. After re-reading the article prior to posting it I realised that BOTH of the terms were not PC, so I then apologised, before posting the article.
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BB
Right. Easy mistake to make.
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Anyway, my personal opinion is irrelevant really, considering my contribution to this thread isn't about what I think, it's about trying to discover the reasons why people voted leave.
From my conversations it seems the leave voters won not because of their opposition to immigrants here in retirement, or here to study, or marry a UK citizen, but because of the criminal and/or illegal element.
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Right. So not only did you introduce a factually incorrect issue into the discussion, you don't even think it matters.
Happy days...
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BST
I'll tell you what point I want to address on here, and it's not about taking sides,it's about the patronising way you and your cronies treat people who oppose you.
It wasn't a misunderstanding that I wrote unemployed instead of not employed. It was mistake, and one that has been taken completely out of context so as to deflect the direction of the argument.
So to get back to the point, if you and the other Righteous brother will allow, let's get back to the original point.
The point I was making was that it makes you wonder why 600,000 not employed foreign immigrants find the country such an attractive option doesn't it?
Well thereyou go - that might have been the point you wanted to make, but instead the point you did make was one you brought up yourself - why are people so keen to pick up on negative points and ignore the positives?
Until YOU provide some context to these figures you have produced on these 600 000 people, then how can we comment? What are these people doing? Are they the families of multi-million £ footballers who are spending some of their sons/cousins/nephews money in our shops? Are they the billionaire owners of these football clubs? Maybe athletes in a training programme? Certainly there will be students paying a lot of money to be at school/college/university here? Will they then go onto teach/work as doctors/open a business here? I dont know - I didn't just randomly bring them into this discussion.
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BST,
If you think the mistake of using the word 'unemployed' instead of 'not employed' is that factually incorrect as to throw the whole debate off track, I suggest you take your supercilious righteousness and shove it up your arse.
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BB
I genuinely do not get you.
YOU raised this entire point about the 600,000, for no other reason as far as I can see than to make a smart dig at another poster.
You got the info from a website that SPECIFICALLY pointed out that people shouldn't be making the error that you then went on to make.
You then say that it's irrelevant anyway.
And when I set out that train of facts, you give me a gobful.
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Actually not bothering to vote probably screwed the remainers up ...... cos they presumed their nice little world couldn't possibly be screwed up by "unthinking anti immigration edl thicko's " please note the total utter stereotyping! which quite possibly accounted for some of the voting, but not all, and vice versa, they wouldn't possibly dare win a a referendum to take us out of the EU and if they do win we'll bitch and moan till we get our way :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink: :) :) :) :) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
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Actually not bothering to vote probably screwed the remainers up ...... cos they presumed their nice little world couldn't possibly be screwed up by "unthinking anti immigration edl thicko's " please note the total utter stereotyping! which quite possibly accounted for some of the voting, but not all, and vice versa, they wouldn't possibly dare win a a referendum to take us out of the EU and if they do win we'll bitch and moan till we get our way :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink: :) :) :) :) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
Aye that's definitely exactly how it happened. Precisely what people who voted - or failed to vote but supported - remain were thinking.
Because Leave definitely would've let the issue lie if they'd lost, and Farage definitely didn't say he'd keep pushing for the result he wanted.