Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: The Red Baron on November 03, 2016, 11:11:03 am
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The Government has lost the case in the High Court. The action was brought against the Government to stop them triggering Article 50 (of the Lisbon Treaty) without a vote in Parliament.
Round 2 in the Supreme Court next month.
Interesting...
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It's all well and good doing that, but the people of the uk voted and made the decision.
Actually parliament should vote on it and should vote to do it, the referendum has to be binding.
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I am not sure if the parliamentary process is simply to be able to vote to trigger Article 50, which in theory the MPs should follow the votes of their constituents, ie to leave - or to debate and vote on what the UK wants to achieve after Brexit.
I suspect the latter, which I think is perfectly valid to do. If Brexit means Brexit, we want it to work as best we can, and that means preparing and parliament agreeing.
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Yup, totally agree. We're leaving the EU thanks to the vote, but I hope that it's done in a way that ensures that the people of the UK get the best outcome possible and that, for me, means that parliament should be directly involved rather than just an unelected PM and her three stooges calling the shots.
If you voted for Brexit, it's still coming; if you voted Remain, then - hopefully - this might soften some of the edges of leaving the EU. This also might be a way to reconcile the Leavers and the Remainers a little. I sure hope so.
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Maybe now the rest of parliament, and the rest of the country, can understand what Brexit really means apart from it meaning.... Brexit... :facepalm:
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Exactly. Because I sure as shit didn't vote to potentially screw the country over and make the poor even poorer. I read that some people are happy with that, knew they were voting for that. I suspect most didn't or would rather minimise the turbulence whilst also respecting the wishes of Murdoch's army.
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http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/what-does-todays-high-court-ruling-on-article-50-mean-brexit
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It's entirely right that the terms of brexit are put under scrutiny by at least someone, and if it is to be parliament then so be it.
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What an absolute mess. I'm not ashamed to admit I don't understand half of what needs to be done post Article 50. The thought of TM and her selected group making all the decisions frightens me silly. Whilst in theory I prefer the idea of each step going in front of parliament for debate and approval I can't see how any progress would ever be made in the required timescales! So what's the answer! As a Remainer I have no idea. I just hope someone does!!
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I have no idea how this might work, but I am slightly hopeful that we might extricate ourselves from the EU in a manner that is palatable to those on both sides of the argument. The noises coming from the harder right of the Tory party (those that seem to have been steering our departure) have scared me rigid of late.
I don't believe that everyone that voted to leave the EU voted to help Farage and co. get what they wanted. Heck, some just voted to leave just to "Stick one up to the Government" as someone told me the other day, so I was never convinced by the 'Keep 'Kippers Happy' approach.
Seems to have been a good day for democracy to me. Those that wanted our parliament to be ultimately sovereign cannot argue, and those of us who voted to remain can have some hope that our voice (which has been totally ignored post-referendum) might have some sway in what happens in the future - even if it won't overturn the result.
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What ever happens it just goes to show those that lost the vote have still not excepted that they have lost.
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What ever happens it just goes to show those that lost the vote have still not excepted that they have lost.
Does it, please explain how 'it goes to show' that?
Me and most of the rest of the country seem to think that this is to do with who gets to decide what the future terms of our relationship with Europe are going to be. But if you know better please enlighten us.
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What ever happens it just goes to show those that lost the vote have still not excepted that they have lost.
Never mind that, it's pretty irrelevant now. Let's talk about the winners.
The more pertinent question is - now we know the government has no idea what it is doing or how it is going to do it and that the EU is going to hold us to ransom at every single turn and deliberately make life difficult for us (politically) - now we know that, what exactly have the winners 'won' with brexit?
Beyond some mild symbolism of 'taking our country back' what, in cold hard terms, have we gained as a people, as a society? Because that is the questions this ruling allows allows to be scrutinised. If your 'well we voted and won' doesn't permit the possibility of these questions being asked then, simply put, you must be stopped.
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What ever happens it just goes to show those that lost the vote have still not excepted that they have lost.
Give your head a shake.
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What ever happens it just goes to show those that lost the vote have still not excepted that they have lost.
Does it, please explain how 'it goes to show' that?
Me and most of the rest of the country seem to think that this is to do with who gets to decide what the future terms of our relationship with Europe are going to be. But if you know better please enlighten us.
To me and the rest of the country, what a crap statement, to you and some of the country not the rest. To me and some of the country it's those that lost trying put up blocks so we don't leave.
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What ever happens it just goes to show those that lost the vote have still not excepted that they have lost.
Give your head a shake.
Explain why I should be shaking my head
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IMHO the government, and parliament, should have determined exactly what they wanted with a Brexit, if the vote to leave won. Of course it is right to question how Brexit now happens.
We have voted as a populace to jump into the unknown. We don't want to jump into the unknown blindfold do we??
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IMHO the government, and parliament, should have determined exactly what they wanted with a Brexit, if the vote to leave won. Of course it is right to question how Brexit now happens.
We have voted as a populace to jump into the unknown. We don't want to jump into the unknown blindfold do we??
Nah, we should quit the EU immediately whilst at the same time giving Europe the middle finger. Then of course they'll fall over themselves to give the UK what it wants as a severance package because they're so desperate to be friends with us they'll forget about looking after their own interests completely. :silly:
Or was I told it wrong in June..? ;)
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This will be interesting,MILLIBAND is duty bound to vote out as 69% of the electorate in his constituency voted out!
As will Winterton and Flint.
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This will be interesting,MILLIBAND is duty bound to vote out as 69% of the electorate in his constituency voted out!
As will Winterton and Flint.
They should be de-selected if they don't
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This will be interesting,MILLIBAND is duty bound to vote out as 69% of the electorate in his constituency voted out!
As will Winterton and Flint.
I wouldn't put money on it.
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What ever happens it just goes to show those that lost the vote have still not excepted that they have lost.
Give your head a shake.
Explain why I should be shaking my head
Because if you listen very, very carefully you might hear your brain rolling about.
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This will be interesting,MILLIBAND is duty bound to vote out as 69% of the electorate in his constituency voted out!
As will Winterton and Flint.
No MP is duty-bound to do anything of the sort. They were elected to use their own judgement. If they then do something their constituents don't like they have the opportunity to vote them out. That's how 'representative democracy' works.
Also, MPs owe more allegiance to the Whip of the party they stood to represent.
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This will be interesting,MILLIBAND is duty bound to vote out as 69% of the electorate in his constituency voted out!
As will Winterton and Flint.
Does he?
I think you can flush these simplistic notions about democracy down the shitter. People will say we live in a parliamentary democracy, and people will say democracy is about the highest number of votes. That little tete-a-tete will be rumbling for months. What we know is that MPs don't necessarily have to represent the views of the majority of their constituents.
As it stands, 17.4m people have voted for a primeminster not elected to the position and her party, who won power through the votes of a vast minority of the british public (mainly residing in the countryside, small villages and hamlets) to enter into the most important period of negotiation in the country's history. And she's sending Boris in as the cultural attaché.
It's all about ideals democracy int it, and values. When you actually try to pin down what it is you're chasing shadows, it's like the f**king wind. My ideal is that we should come to a properly reasoned decision about what is right for the people of this country.
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This will be interesting,MILLIBAND is duty bound to vote out as 69% of the electorate in his constituency voted out!
As will Winterton and Flint.
They should be de-selected if they don't
De-selection is a party matter.
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What ever happens it just goes to show those that lost the vote have still not excepted that they have lost.
Give your head a shake.
Explain why I should be shaking my head
Because if you listen very, very carefully you might hear your brain rolling about.
Oh, so nothing but an insult and in no way helps along the debate. Thanks for your input
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I voted Leave but expected Remain to win, albeit not by much.
When I found out that the result was a narrow Leave I texted two words to a friend - "Hotel California." Basically we'd checked out but we wouldn't leave.
If today's ruling holds up in the SC, I'll be wishing I'd backed my instincts in hard cash.
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I'm sorry GR - I was on my mobile and I couldn't add an 'I'm only joking' smiley/emoji on the end of my comment.
Thing is, you appear to have totally missed the point of what's happened today and why it's important. As I think has been clear from what (at least to me) has been a fairly joined-up, grown-up conversation on here about the ruling today, it's got NOTHING to do with stopping the country from coming out of the EU. NOTHING AT ALL. IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. So the 'sore losers' nonsense that some people are spouting *cough* is completely off the mark.
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I'm sorry GR - I was on my mobile and I couldn't add an 'I'm only joking' smiley/emoji on the end of my comment.
Thing is, you appear to have totally missed the point of what's happened today and why it's important. As I think has been clear from what (at least to me) has been a fairly joined-up, grown-up conversation on here about the ruling today, it's got NOTHING to do with stopping the country from coming out of the EU. NOTHING AT ALL. IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN. So the 'sore losers' nonsense that some people are spouting *cough* is completely off the mark.
Not so sure I agree Lipsy. It's pretty obvious to me that there are quite a number of politicians who are determined that Brexit won't happen.
They are reluctant to say so, or at least they have been until today, and again until today they have lacked a means to stop Brexit.
I think they will be reluctant to vote against the triggering of Article 50 outright, but they will attempt to delay it until they think public opinion has swung in their direction. At that point you will start to hear demands for either a second referendum or a General Election in which the main issue is Our relationship with the EU.
Time will tell, as they say...
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I personally think if they held the referendum again tomorrow the result would be about 60:40 to remain. Too many people voted for the wrong reasons last time and had no idea what would happen, surely anybody with an ounce of intelligence can now see Boris and Farage were talking complete b*llocks. The exchange rate alone should be enough to tell people the mess we are in.
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They won't dare even try TRB. Ain't going to happen. Any MP that votes against the will of the people or is seen to be trying to derail Brexit won't last long... The Tory lot will be whipped into shape and the rest will vote to keep themselves in their nice little jobs (apart from the SNP, obvs). If anything, this will legitimise Brexit yet further (though the Daily Fail and the Excrement will ignore that while it busily goes about getting angry and pointing out that it was a *spit* foreign rich woman who 'broke' Brexit).
As I said, this isn't about stopping what people voted for; it's about trying (hopefully) to get the best deal for everyone in the country. Whichever you voted, we're all united in the fact that we voted for what we thought was best for this little island that we live on. And those that voted for Leave voted for the primacy of parliament - they got that today.
Hopefully, we all won something today. We shall see.
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Remember this - prehaps not.
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Lipsy
They won't now, but if they can bog down whatever legislation is put forward for long enough they will hope the political wind has shifted.
One thing that might make a difference is if Theresa May decides to go for an early General Election. She could then claim a further mandate to pursue Brexit as well as hoping for a bigger Commons majority. One to watch.
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@glosterred
Who has said otherwise?
Today's ruling just means that the triggering of Article 50 has to be passed by parliament first. And it is highly unlikely that that wont happen.
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TRB
TM would need 2/3s majority (off the top of my head) to call for an early election...
Unlikely she'd get that, I suspect.
As I said, MPs unlikely to ignore the so-called will of the people. Also, the Tories won't dare risk losing their power in the future (they're good at sticking together when the going gets tough). Short of a few politicians mocking the current situation, there isn't one from any UK party that is campaigning for us to stay in the EU. That, to me, says it all.
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Akinfenwa,
I think GR's overloaded on a heady cocktail of Farage, Express and DM and he's gone into full 'Kipper battle mode. Maybe I should remind him that the referendum was advisory and non-binding? That's always good for a laugh (sorry GR).
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Labour's Shadow Secretary of State for Exiting the European Union Keir Starmer was very clear in telling BBC News: "We accept and respect the outcome of the referendum."
But he added that the court ruling should force the government to set out the outline principles on which it would be negotiating.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-37860618
Correct Lipsy. However unlike several posters on here some MP's think the whole country - via their democratic representatives - should have a say in what happens next.
I think May will be very, very loath to calling for an early election. Dare she risk letting UKIP in &/or splitting the Tory vote?
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Having limited knowledge of the ins and outs it seems to me a protest vote by those who don't like losing their EU money. Protecting the grubby little benefits they get from it.
What it does it make it obvious to other nations we are in turmoil and the deal that we eventually get will be poorer than if they had accepted the people's will.
We are going from a position of strength to one of weakness. They know that there isn't enough support in political circles to stop it but what they will do is damage our position and we will end up with a 'watered down' version of leaving!.
And do you know who will feel it?, me and you in our pockets. They have a right to challenge things as it's a democracy but also as a democracy they also should have decided to put on a united front.
The prime minister is a tory not my party, but they have made her job a lot harder. Unfortunately i see this starting some very challenging times with it leading to an early general election.
We needed stability so she could sort through this mess and get us a deal where we do business with the other Eu nations with as few of the constraints as possible.
There will be multiple complications to deal with as it is, this ruling hinders and doesn't help our country. I voted so that our country had more control over the laws and to stop interference from the EU with their many politically correct laws that have destroyed our law system.
I also wanted some control over how many people were coming into the country. So that more pressure wasn't being put on our NHS, schools and just the overloading of too many and our government not building the system to cope with extra people.
I want us to do our share and help people across the world but not in the numbers we have been doing. We have many fine people coming from abroad who love living here like we do. They work hard and bring up their families and build a good life, good we want people like that.
We just can't keep taking in everybody who wants to come here our system is straining at the seams!.
I take it as a bit of an insult that i took the trouble to vote and now politicians are trying to delay 'Brexit' hoping it goes away. I think it's time the foreign aid we give away is lessened it's been proven that most of the money we give away ends up in criminals hands.
I voted after thinking long and hard about what i wanted to do. What i wanted for my country when my nieces are around and i'm not.
I wanted our country to be open for business with the world and not restricted to a failing Europe. I wanted to see our values retained while also learning from other cultures. I voted for our country to be a help but not a pushover.
I wanted to see the laws in our country going back in time a bit to what they were, when if you did wrong you were punished properly.
Most of all i voted for our country to be run by our government. I know dodgy thinking when the tories are in power but they were elected into power. Yes the leader wasn't but to me she should be deciding with the rest of parliament what does and doesn't happen.
Not a power hungry group of politicians with no affiliation to our country. If they don't want to trade with us they're loss, there is a world out there with better deals and more wealth waiting to improve our country.
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I've got a number of points to make on the judicial decision, what MPs say in public and also on the issues around calling an early GE. Will develop when I have a bit more time later today.
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SCWK,
I could easily and happily counter many of the things you said, but rather than rake over all of this again and raise the temperature of my piss to boiling point, I will say again: yesterday's ruling a) won't stop you getting your Brexit and b) wasn't about stopping it. Murdoch's press would have you believe that it was (and you should be asking yourself why Murdoch and the likes wanted you to vote for Brexit and why he/they continue to choose to use the vile language and headlines we're seeing in certain sections of the press), but - in effect - absolutely nothing has changed beyond some people successfully (for now at least) upholding the primacy and sovereignty of parliament.
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The issue isn't wether parliament vote to leave the EU that's not what the vote is about..Its about the terms on what we leave the EU ...The reality is that nothing will change except the possible timescale with mp's deciding on how far they can push the deal terms....
Unless your a anti democracy party like the lib dems of course whose aim is to reastablish there own party's aims by tring to get the leave voters onside...
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Ok here goes.
As far as the court decision goes, the ruling was on a point of law and those attacking judges are aiming at the wrong targets. I do question the real motives of those who brought the case (see below) but I don't think it is particularly wrong that Parliament should have a say in the process of triggering Article 50.
In this case both sides have maintained (because it suited their arguments to say so) that Article 50 is a one-way street and that once the process is started, it is irrevocable. There is alternative legal opinion that it isn't, including from one of the authors of the Lisbon Treaty, but neither side has used this argument. Therefore, because of the significance of the triggering of A50 it doesn't seem unreasonable that Parliament should debate it.
Then we come to the political realities. The Government doesn't want a debate prior to triggering for two reasons:
1. There is a small pro-Remain majority in the Commons and a larger one in the Lords which might be unwilling to vote down a Bill triggering A50 but would be willing to delay it, perhaps by up to 12 months.
2. The Government wants a free hand to negotiate what it considers to be the best deal for the UK. This will not be easy, but the Government thinks it will be harder if MPs and/or Peers include pre-conditions. Continued membership of the Single Market is an obvious one. It sounds like a good thing, but with it will come requirements on free movement, financial contributions and being subject to some, if not all, ECJ rulings.
More later. Just lost the last two paras so need to recompose them. Stupid phone!
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Remember this - prehaps not.
That's all very well, but it doesn't say that Parliament will. Big difference.
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I also remember this:
(http://cdn.images.express.co.uk/img/dynamic/1/590x/secondary/Boris-Johnson-574738.jpg)
If people can desperately shout this down as not being a promise, anything written in a thing from a PM that isn't in charge anymore can also be ignored and treated with similar disdain...
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This will be interesting,MILLIBAND is duty bound to vote out as 69% of the electorate in his constituency voted out!
As will Winterton and Flint.
69% of those who chose to vote, NOT 69% of the electorate. Different things me old mucker.
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This will be interesting,MILLIBAND is duty bound to vote out as 69% of the electorate in his constituency voted out!
As will Winterton and Flint.
69% of those who chose to vote, NOT 69% of the electorate. Different things me old mucker.
That was their decision Mike so that's irrelevant ...69% voted out so he is duty bound to accept the will of his constituents as per the mandate hey voted for...
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Akinfenwa,
I think GR's overloaded on a heady cocktail of Farage, Express and DM and he's gone into full 'Kipper battle mode. Maybe I should remind him that the referendum was advisory and non-binding? That's always good for a laugh (sorry GR).
Ah, more insults, for your info, I neither read the Express, Daily Mail, support Farage or ukip and I voted to remain. But carry on with you insults, I have a thick skin.
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You clearly missed the light-hearted tone... Nevermind, eh?
And I wasn't insulting you - keep trying.
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This will be interesting,MILLIBAND is duty bound to vote out as 69% of the electorate in his constituency voted out!
As will Winterton and Flint.
69% of those who chose to vote, NOT 69% of the electorate. Different things me old mucker.
That was their decision Mike so that's irrelevant ...69% voted out so he is duty bound to accept the will of his constituents as per the mandate hey voted for...
What about his constituents he was elected to represent that don't have a vote? Or don't you think he represents them?
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Not that I think that MPs will ever get to outright reject Brexit, but you make an excellent point. Do MPs respect the referendum or do they also think of the interests of the country and those that didn't or couldn't vote..?
It's not something I have really considered, given that the ongoing discussion/debate has always been between those of that voted one way or t'other.
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An MP is elected to represent everybody in his constituency, including those who voted for someone else and also those who didn't or can't vote. They do this by either following the whip of the party they stood for, or by making their own decision (by either voting against the whip or however they want to in a free vote). An MP is his constituency's representative, not their puppet.
They certainly aren't beholden to base their vote on Article 50 on the referendum result because of the above - but also because the referendum did not ask the electorate about Article 50 so cannot be used to say what the public will is regarding any Parliamentary vote on Article 50 - the wording and intention of which the public don't even know now and certainly didn't at the time of the referendum!
However, writing this out did make me think that it's going to interesting whether any eventual Parliamentary vote will be whipped (and therefore which way each party instructs its MPs to vote) in order for the Government to ensure the vote in their favour, or whether it will be a Free Vote..?
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All this goes to prove, even further, is that the general public had insufficient information to make an informed choice in the Brexit referendum. Parliament should have decided, voted on, and made public the options BEFORE the refefrendum - detailing how they would act whichever way the vote went. Either there would be defined reforms if remain had won, to make the EU membership more effective, or to define how brexit would work, had leave won.
Had they done that, that may or may not have changed the result - that isn't my point.
The point is we now have a clusterf**k. And we as a populace voted for that, blindly.
We are driving the wrong way down the motorway, with no driver.
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What ever happens it just goes to show those that lost the vote have still not excepted that they have lost.
Really I have excepted the decision , unwise though I think it is , but believe that democracy was the winner yesterday.
I want things scrutinised and if that takes months and months then so be it. We have been heavily involved in every aspect of the EU and to expect that we can completely sever ties without proper consultation in the timescale provided is madness. There are too many issues that need ironing out , I have a youngster at Leeds Uni who was hoping to study abroad but that for instrance has to be putter on the back burner.
God what legacy and bleak future have you inflicted on our young, middle aged and old'uns ? What have you done ? What about mine and others plans to retire into a nice sunny place in Europe - I detest what some of you have done. Will we be able to travel freely, get health care , afford it with the decline in the £, what will be the future status of millions of British abroad ? etc ? It's a shambles and utter madness !
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The issue isn't wether parliament vote to leave the EU that's not what the vote is about..Its about the terms on what we leave the EU ...The reality is that nothing will change except the possible timescale with mp's deciding on how far they can push the deal terms....
Unless your a anti democracy party like the lib dems of course whose aim is to reastablish there own party's aims by tring to get the leave voters onside...
" anti democracy party " , I would say that they have been consistent for the last 50 years. What would you have them do a complete volte face ? Look I consider myself as a Europhile and for me it's quite simple that as part of the 48% ; I don't feel obliged to ditch my beliefs and I wouldn't expect them too either. They, like me, still have the courage of their convictions and I accept that but why should we give up our fight .
Look, if the decision had gone the other way, would you expect Farage, Fox, Davies, IDS ETC. NOT to push for the very best deal to stay in the EU and an eventual 2nd Referendum to "leave" the EU . Of course not they would have fought tooth and nail to obstruct our membership in much the same way as they have for decades......
Somehow you seem to feel those of us opposed to leavinget no longer have opinions or rights
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What ever happens it just goes to show those that lost the vote have still not excepted that they have lost.
God what legacy and bleak future have you inflicted on our young, middle aged and old'uns ? What have you done ? What about mine and others plans to retire into a nice sunny place in Europe - I detest what some of you have done. Will we be able to travel freely, get health care , afford it with the decline in the £, what will be the future status of millions of British abroad ? etc ? It's a shambles and utter madness !
Are you sure you have accepted the decision Hoola? That paragraph suggests you haven't.
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There's a difference between accepting something and being happy about it. Brexshirts spent 40 years moaning about being part of the EU and its variants...
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I would say he is still fuming about it. I would not say thats accepting the decision
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I think that it's perfectly possible to acknowledge that a vote has been taken and something is happening as a consequence. You don't have to be happy about that. A number of Leave voters think that 48% of the people that bothered to vote should just go quietly into the night or "fit in or f**k off". I'm not sure that it works that way, and nor should it.
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I would say he is still fuming about it. I would not say thats accepting the decision
b*llocks..
I voted remain and I think the whole referendum was flawed from the beginning - yet I accept that more folks voted leave than remain..
The issue now, is how to deal with it.. That should have been planned in advance, and made public for both leave and remain options, so the vote could be made more effectively on what the country can reasonably be expected to achieve.
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I would say he is still fuming about it. I would not say thats accepting the decision
b*llocks..
I voted remain and I think the whole referendum was flawed from the beginning - yet I accept that more folks voted leave than remain..
The issue now, is how to deal with it.. That should have been planned in advance, and made public for both leave and remain options, so the vote could be made more effectively on what the country can reasonably be expected to achieve.
Your fuming about it also. I accept you may not be happy about the decision that's fine but don't pretend to have accepted the decision when clearly you haven't. And please don't say my opinion is b*llocks just because it differs to yours
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I like a few others believe it was a decision we the public shouldn't have been asked to make.
Said all along we were doing what no government could get through or away with!
I welcome this judgment as it makes the politicians also accountable. They cant just fob us off with "tye people spoke" lets nail their colours to the mast?!
Going to be messy for the party that orchestrated this :)
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I would say he is still fuming about it. I would not say thats accepting the decision
b*llocks..
I voted remain and I think the whole referendum was flawed from the beginning - yet I accept that more folks voted leave than remain..
The issue now, is how to deal with it.. That should have been planned in advance, and made public for both leave and remain options, so the vote could be made more effectively on what the country can reasonably be expected to achieve.
Your fuming about it also. I accept you may not be happy about the decision that's fine but don't pretend to have accepted the decision when clearly you haven't. And please don't say my opinion is b*llocks just because it differs to yours
No, your deduction about what other people may be THINKING, is b*llocks, I never said that about your opinion..
You can have whatever opinion you like, doesn't mean we have to agree.
and, yes, I have accepted the result. I don't like it, for a whole variety of reasons and the whole brexit thing is a total clusterf**k, but I have no issue with the vote count!!
I accept doncaster rovers got relegated, I don't like it and I still don't. But they can put that right this season, or next.. I still accept what has happened though.
There is a big difference between not liking something and not accepting it..
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I would say he is still fuming about it. I would not say thats accepting the decision
b*llocks..
I voted remain and I think the whole referendum was flawed from the beginning - yet I accept that more folks voted leave than remain..
The issue now, is how to deal with it.. That should have been planned in advance, and made public for both leave and remain options, so the vote could be made more effectively on what the country can reasonably be expected to achieve.
Your fuming about it also. I accept you may not be happy about the decision that's fine but don't pretend to have accepted the decision when clearly you haven't. And please don't say my opinion is b*llocks just because it differs to yours
No, your deduction about what other people may be THINKING, is b*llocks, I never said that about your opinion..
You can have whatever opinion you like, doesn't mean we have to agree.
and, yes, I have accepted the result. I don't like it, for a whole variety of reasons and the whole brexit thing is a total clusterf**k, but I have no issue with the vote count!!
I accept doncaster rovers got relegated, I don't like it and I still don't. But they can put that right this season, or next.. I still accept what has happened though.
There is a big difference between not liking something and not accepting it.
Like i said you are still fuming about the decision, that's the impression i get from you and several other poster on here. Thats my opinion it's not b*llocks it's my opinion or can you not accept that either
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Even if anyone was still 'fuming' about the result, what's the problem with that? I don't understand the issue - apparently, some folks were fuming about being part of the EU (under various guises) for 40 years...
Frankly, given the tanking of sterling, billions of pounds of quantitive easing, a rise in racism and attacks on minority groups, and an alarming emboldening of the hard right elements (in the press, politics and on the streets), I don't see much to be cheery about at the moment. And that's before we even invoke Article 50... Which is before we leave the EU as well. Anyone care to point me to the good stuff that's to come? 'Cos I ain't seeing much of a rosy future at the moment...
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I would say he is still fuming about it. I would not say thats accepting the decision
b*llocks..
I voted remain and I think the whole referendum was flawed from the beginning - yet I accept that more folks voted leave than remain..
The issue now, is how to deal with it.. That should have been planned in advance, and made public for both leave and remain options, so the vote could be made more effectively on what the country can reasonably be expected to achieve.
Your fuming about it also. I accept you may not be happy about the decision that's fine but don't pretend to have accepted the decision when clearly you haven't. And please don't say my opinion is b*llocks just because it differs to yours
No, your deduction about what other people may be THINKING, is b*llocks, I never said that about your opinion..
You can have whatever opinion you like, doesn't mean we have to agree.
and, yes, I have accepted the result. I don't like it, for a whole variety of reasons and the whole brexit thing is a total clusterf**k, but I have no issue with the vote count!!
I accept doncaster rovers got relegated, I don't like it and I still don't. But they can put that right this season, or next.. I still accept what has happened though.
There is a big difference between not liking something and not accepting it.
Like i said you are still fuming about the decision, that's the impression i get from you and several other poster on here. Thats my opinion it's not b*llocks it's my opinion or can you not accept that either
No, you don't understand my arguments at all.. Therefore your conclusion about what I may or may not be thinking, is b*llocks - unless you are clairvoyant or something??
I have big issues with the referendum process and brexit both before and after the vote, but I have no issue with the vote, it the decision, itself..
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Even if anyone was still 'fuming' about the result, what's the problem with that? I don't understand the issue - apparently, some folks were fuming about being part of the EU (under various guises) for 40 years...
Frankly, given the tanking of sterling, billions of pounds of quantitive easing, a rise in racism and attacks on minority groups, and an alarming emboldening of the hard right elements (in the press, politics and on the streets), I don't see much to be cheery about at the moment. And that's before we even invoke Article 50... Which is before we leave the EU as well. Anyone care to point me to the good stuff that's to come? 'Cos I ain't seeing much of rosy future at the moment...
So finally you admit you are fuming with the result. Credit to you for doing so now will the others on here do the same instead of boring the pants off the rest of us spouting the same stuff over and over again.
You are right about the negative stuff happening all over the country particularly the instant recession that was predicted its hit me hard in the pocket................ oh wait a minute it never happened
Just a quote from the telegraph to back me up
"The Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development, a think tank for rich countries, is the latest body to recant its prophecies of doom, admitting that the UK economy has been ticking along nicely since the referendum. Its assessment is shared by the Office for National Statistics, which says that there is, as yet, no sign of economic trouble arising from the vote, much less the immediate recession shamefully predicted by George Osborne’s Treasury in a bid to scare voters out of voting to leave."
Were all doomed
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Do you drive del boy? Have you not noticed the petrol price rises with oil priced in dollars? You have not noticed the news stories of supermarkets possibly needing to put prices up because their suppliers are paying more to import raw materials?
The economy isn't going to settle either way for quite a long time, and certainly not until the actual brexit process is clear, and then even longer too probably.
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del boy, del boy, del boy - where was any admission that I or anyone was fuming?
Looks to me as though you like the idea that some people might be narked off by it. I think that says more about you than it does anyone else.
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Do you drive del boy? Have you not noticed the petrol price rises with oil priced in dollars? You have not noticed the news stories of supermarkets possibly needing to put prices up because their suppliers are paying more to import raw materials?
The economy isn't going to settle either way for quite a long time, and certainly not until the actual brexit process is clear, and then even longer too probably.
I have 2 cars thanks and petrol is still alot cheaper than it was a couple of years ago but we will ignore that fact to suit you if you like. The rest of your statement contains a few possibilities and probabilities not facts. Like I keep saying some of you keep pretending you have accepted the result but really you haven't with the exception of Lipsy who has come round to my point of view ;)
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del boy, del boy, del boy - where was any admission that I or anyone was fuming?
Looks to me as though you like the idea that some people might be narked off by it. I think that says more about you than it does anyone else.
Lipsy, Lipsy, Lipsy So are you are now saying you are not narked of by the result
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Phuk me! mad mick is back.
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Do you drive del boy? Have you not noticed the petrol price rises with oil priced in dollars? You have not noticed the news stories of supermarkets possibly needing to put prices up because their suppliers are paying more to import raw materials?
The economy isn't going to settle either way for quite a long time, and certainly not until the actual brexit process is clear, and then even longer too probably.
I have 2 cars thanks and petrol is still alot cheaper than it was a couple of years ago but we will ignore that fact to suit you if you like. The rest of your statement contains a few possibilities and probabilities not facts. Like I keep saying some of you keep pretending you have accepted the result but really you haven't with the exception of Lipsy who has come round to my point of view ;)
Which bit of "but I have no issue with the vote, it the decision, itself.." did you not read??
There are big issues with brexit, still, which I have major concerns over - and I never said they weren't possibilities or probabilities.
But what bit of having those concerns means I don't accept the result?? I have no pretence, I know my own mind, but you seem to be guessing..
How about you read my whole post, and digest what I actually said, especially the bit about accepting the result??
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Phuk me! mad mick is back.
[/quote
Thats a bit harsh IDM has been around for ages ;)
Anyway thats enough fishing for this weekend. Time for me to move on :woohoo:
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Maybe the Government should just shut up and accept the democratic decision made by the court and move on. That's how we deal with Brexit, right?
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Maybe the people who took it to court should have just accepted the result of the majority
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Maybe the majority should realise the result of the referendum was only ever advisory and move on.
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Maybe we should thank the people who took it to court for not allowing the Government to set a potentially dangerous precedent?
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Well, well, well. There's none so blind as them that don't wanna see. Is there Del Boy? How on Earth you can construe a decision by a Court that Royal Prerogative does not encompass the power to make and break treaties is beyond me. Can you distinguish a debate about process? Or the fact that nobody, not nobody, has challenged the result of the vote? Is your knowledge of history sufficient to allow to recognise the horse and cart Mrs May and co. have been planning to drive through the constitution of this country and 300 years of accepted practice? Clearly not.
Oh, and one more thought: if the urge to vote to leave was driven by the desire to 'reclaim our sovereignty' how come you and all the other leavers have got so apopletic about someone reclaiming that very sovereignty? The two faced double standards employed by you and your ilk are breathtaking.
Still. Not to worry. We can look forward to being on our own now. A truly glorious prospect....
BobG
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The amazing Bob G. Thought you would have been along sooner than this with your usual waffle better late than never I suppose. Another one fuming that the vote didn't go your way are you?
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The amazing Bob G. Thought you would have been along sooner than this with your usual waffle better late than never I suppose. Another one fuming that the vote didn't go your way are you?
Change the f**king record, will you?? Why not actually read the posts and make your arguments against the points, not just trotting out the same "fuming that the vote didn't go your way" line??
or maybe you are just a troll, eh?
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Nah, you're fewwwwwwwwwming mate. Can see the fume from space.
He's obviously made a lot of constructive input to the thread and isn't making himself look like a tool at all.
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I have had enough of this thread now. I have been taking the p*ss all day and a few posters have took the bait I even said I was fishing on an earlier post.
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I have had enough of this thread now. I have been taking the p*ss all day and a few posters have took the bait I even said I was fishing on an earlier post.
"Joke's on them, I was only pretending to be a cretin!"
Nice one.
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I think Corbyn has been pretty clear today on where he stands:
“We are not challenging the referendum. We are not calling for a second referendum. We’re calling for market access for British industry to Europe.”
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/05/jeremy-corbyn-theresa-may-brexit-bottom-line-article-50-early-election
Whilst India's PM has shown how difficult it will be for TM to negotiate trade deals whilst wanting to block immigration.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/06/india-warns-uk-immigration-policy-wreck-post-brexit-trade-deal
So you see there in those two stories why there is grave concern over TM wanting to be in sole charge of negotiations - it won't go well.
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So you see there in those two stories why there is grave concern over TM wanting to be in sole charge of negotiations - it won't go well.
Luckily TM is not in sole charge of negotiations...she's got David Davis to help her :-/
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So you see there in those two stories why there is grave concern over TM wanting to be in sole charge of negotiations - it won't go well.
Luckily TM is not in sole charge of negotiations...she's got David Davis to help her :-/
Should I be surprised not one remainiac has nominated their chosen negotiator? I'll give you 7 to choose one from. Obviously all have to have excellent pro EU credentials.
Blair,Clegg,Cameron,any of the 3 Kinnocks,or how about Mandelson? I imagine Stubbs would be having a right stiffy over at least 5 of those
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It's not up to me, it's up the government to choose the person they think is going to get the best deal for Britain. David Davies wouldn't be top of my list though -his only negotiating point seems to be 'we want to come out' - hardly conductive to getting a good trading deal I would have thought.
How much do you Brexiters think we should pay to visit Europe? £10, £20, £100? Out is out isn't it?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/14/eu-ministers-to-discuss-plan-to-charge-britons-to-visit-europe-after-brexit
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I was wondering just how far from requiring visas to go to France, Holland and Spain we might end up being.... Maybe, if the past is anything to go by, still a reasonable distance. But that could very easily not hold true for Eastern Europe, the Baltics and maybe even parts of Scandinavia. 51st State anyone?
Cheers
BobG
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I am miffed that 16-17 yos didn't get to vote....They can do lots of things but cannot vote on something that would affect them the most.
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I see the point Cov. It has a lot of sense. But, by definition, it is adults who vote in elections. If we re-define adult as meaning anayone over 16, are you willing to accept all the other changes that would bring about? Ability to get pissed; ability to drive; ability to commit to mortgages and all sorts of other financial instruments and matters; ability to be sent down to adult prisons. The list goes on for miles and miles and miles....
A tough call not to allow 16 and 17 year olds to vote - but I reckon it was the right call overall.
Cheers
BobG
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Brexit means Noexit. Where's BST gone these days btw ?
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And so it begins...
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/21/sir-richard-branson-funding-new-campaign-group-fighting-brexit?CMP=share_btn_tw
"Welcome to the Hotel California..."
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and along comes another Desperado
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/21/tony-blair-hoping-to-revitalise-centre-ground-with-political-comeback
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Reminds me of another has been who tried to 'reclaim' the centre ground when his party turned extremist: Francis Pym. He sank without trace too.
BobG
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I cannot believe that we put any trust in M.Ps that find it difficult to fill in a expenses form to sort Brexit out.
Lets hope they leave it to the smart ones who dont get caught.
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I cannot believe that we put any trust in M.Ps that find it difficult to fill in a expenses form to sort Brexit out.
Lets hope they leave it to the smart ones who dont get caught.
Better than leaving it to fantasists like Fox or Gove, or opportunistic liars like Johnson and Farage.
But not by much!
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I see the point Cov. It has a lot of sense. But, by definition, it is adults who vote in elections. If we re-define adult as meaning anayone over 16, are you willing to accept all the other changes that would bring about? Ability to get pissed; ability to drive; ability to commit to mortgages and all sorts of other financial instruments and matters; ability to be sent down to adult prisons. The list goes on for miles and miles and miles....
A tough call not to allow 16 and 17 year olds to vote - but I reckon it was the right call overall.
Cheers
BobG
When I was 16 I was very able to get pissed. It only took me a couple of pints! ;)
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Oh dear, oh very dear....
http://politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/12/06/very-quietly-liam-fox-admits-the-brexit-lie
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Oh dear, oh very dear....
http://politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/12/06/very-quietly-liam-fox-admits-the-brexit-lie
Uh-oh, didn't St Nigel of Farage predict riots in the streets if we didn't get a proper Brexit?
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That link is now winging its way to several interested and interesting people around the globe. Thank you Kato.
BobG
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With all the kerfuffle in the courts at the moment, whether the terms for Brexit should be debated in parliament and voted on by MPs etc - shouldn't the terms of Brexit been made decided and made public BEFORE the referendum??
That's not sour remainer grapes by the way - "leave" may still have won and by a greater majority - but surely to f**k we should have been told what we were voting for, because at the moment, nobody knows!
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On the other hand election after election a party gets in and then ignores,reverses or buries policies that got them elected.
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Absolutely, but they can then be held accountable for those lies at the next election, general elections, local council elections, but not Brexit. That's why it was IMHO vital to get a clear message of what it meant before the vote. Chances are the leave majority could have been bigger, but it would have been a darned sight more open!
All parties are as bad as the other. South Park had it right, it's always a choice between a giant douche and a turd sandwich!
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That is why Cameron will go down in history as the worst Prime Minister since Lord North. His gambling in pursuit of a purely internal party matter, his failure to develop a positive story and his failure to recognise the decade and more of chaos and the century of lost opportunities has and will continue to cause more harm than any other Prime Minister has achieved in almost two and a half centuries.
Try this link if you don't believe me. It's not a long read. But it is a very, very painful one nevertheless.
http://politics.co.uk/blogs/2016/12/06/very-quietly-liam-fox-admits-the-brexit-lie
BobG
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You can add to Cameron's charge sheet his utterly botched "negotiations" where he went in with his position - not exactly a strong one- advertised in advance. He also rushed his negotiations and came back with next to nothing.
Let's hope the actual Brexit negotiators are rather more astute.
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I wonder if the electorate decided that if Brexit was abandoned,there would be no need for the house of commons, and the house of lords,therefore saving millions of pounds.And we the electorate would be willing to be governed entirely by Brussels making all our MPs redundant how many would try to stop Brexit?
If we cannot make our own laws,are held to common agreements and rules,why should we have layer and layer of pigs with snouts in the trough.
I bet Soubry and her mates wouldnt be so full of shit then.
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If we cannot make our own laws
Good thing we can, eh?
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Red only after scrutiny and approval by the E.U. courts.We were kept in the dark about treaties and what they meant by our leaders at the time.
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Red only after scrutiny and approval by the E.U. courts.
Utter crap. The European Court of Justice can only rule on matter of EU Law. It has no power whatsoever regarding member states internal legislation.
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Exactly the whole thing is a mess thanks to the lies and deceit. !
Wait until the factories close and the jobs disappear . :(
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Wait until the factories close and the jobs disappear . :(
Those racist bas**rds in Sunderland that voted out will get it when Nissan pull out,and the Taffies will regret voting out when Port Talbot closes
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I spotted this today - on a Warwick University site. A thought about the impact on British management of the impact of Brexit. I should have thought of it for myself - but I didn't. What do you reckon?
"A related issue is the assumption that there are senior managers who, in the event of negative consequences with our European market, will spring into action and conquer new markets. Any manager with the competence and motivation to go after new markets is already doing it. The idea that that they are sitting on their backsides waiting for brexit is nonsense. We export more to the Republic of Ireland than we do to China. We have a problem!"
I can't see anything at all wrong with that logic. I wish I could.
BobG
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Where's the problem Bob, Liam Fox is on the job and supporting British business to find new markets...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/09/09/british-business-fat-and-lazy-liam-fox-claims/
ahhem...
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I wonder if the electorate decided that if Brexit was abandoned,there would be no need for the house of commons, and the house of lords,therefore saving millions of pounds.And we the electorate would be willing to be governed entirely by Brussels making all our MPs redundant how many would try to stop Brexit?
If we cannot make our own laws,are held to common agreements and rules,why should we have layer and layer of pigs with snouts in the trough.
I bet Soubry and her mates wouldnt be so full of shit then.
Selby just where do you get all this shite from ?
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Red only after scrutiny and approval by the E.U. courts.We were kept in the dark about treaties and what they meant by our leaders at the time.
You have made that up or are suffering from a severe case of Daily Mail/ Express/ Sun.
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Hoola if the vote is ignored in the U.K.and we stay in the E.U.what the hell do we need The House of Lords,the Commons,Stormont,the Welsh Assembly and bless them, the Scotish Parliament for.
Just bite the bullet and elect the E.U.M.Ps and let them sort it all out.We would most likely be short cutting history by about two hundred years.
That could well be the future if we stay in,and just think of the money we would save,pluss the w**kers we would be getting rid of that spout crap on T.V.telling us they are protecting our way of life.
The only way of life they are protecting is their own,pigs in the trough and the good life for the so called elite.
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Hoola if the vote is ignored in the U.K.and we stay in the E.U.what the hell do we need The House of Lords,the Commons,Stormont,the Welsh Assembly and bless them, the Scotish Parliament for.
Just bite the bullet and elect the E.U.M.Ps and let them sort it all out.We would most likely be short cutting history by about two hundred years.
That could well be the future if we stay in,and just think of the money we would save,pluss the w**kers we would be getting rid of that spout crap on T.V.telling us they are protecting our way of life.
The only way of life they are protecting is their own,pigs in the trough and the good life for the so called elite.
If we keep the House of Lords, The Commons, Stormont, the Welsh Assembly and the Scottish Parliament, what would we need parish councils, town councils or county councils for? It's exactly the same argument - and exactly the same answer - just at a different layer of governance.
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Lets start to get rid from the top then, and work our way down.
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There speaks the frustration of someone who hasn't got a clue about what to put in place to replace the object of his frustration. And there, too, is a clear and simple demonstration of the manifest failure of every politician, of all parties, pro Brexit and anti Brexit, to develop a vision of where we should be going amd how we could set about getting there. This current generation of politicians are, for me, the most abject and cringeworthy of any throughout the last 60 years. In fact, the only other generation I can think of who might be as intellectually and morally moribund as this lot today are those we suffered under during the 1930's.
BobG
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Bob dont think I am so simplistic,I am just pointing out the obvious situation that we are digging ourselves into,and trying to get a reaction.
Our forbears in the early 20th century would have been much more vocal,and would have been demonstrating their disgust on the streets if they had been led into such a situation.
Instead off Cameron has gone into the sunset of corporate lectures for big bucks,leaving others to pick up the pieces.
I totally agree with you we have been led by the most inept set of politicians since the 1930s,and the media has compounded the situation.
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:):)
Ok. I'm sorry Selby. I misread the tone and the intent of your post. I apologise. I am rather glad I misread it though :) Having read it again, I quite like my little contribution. I'll add two things this time around:
As well as being intellectually and morally moribund, today's politicians lack both bottle and balls.
And, the press? My very strong belief is that they, collectively, especially the tabloids, are responsible for 75% of the crap that we have today. They have been peddling their own agendas, feathering their own nests and actively suborning the political process for a generation now. And the frustrations that have come to a head of so many recently have led to the logically and rationally idiotic choice to support anything that promised change. If I decided to set fire to my house because I am totally fed up with the flooring in one of its rooms (which I am), would I be better off? Yet that's what this country has done. And it's our children who will pay the price. it is the most selfish and thoughtless mass act since the Luddites 250 years ago. Which brings us back to the lack of vision of our politicians....
BobG
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Logically and rationally idiotic, now there's a phrase you don't read very often!
I think you are giving the tabloids far greater credit than they deserve, and newspapers as a whole far less of a connection with the political class than they have actually had. Exposing the MP's expenses scandal, oh for the good old days when they wouldn't report the abdication crises when the rest of the world was reading about it.
People made their own choice for their own reasons and its up to the politicians now to get on with it - whatever it is. There is no point blaming a type of media with a declining readership in a world where most people have a range of access to a huge variety of other sources because you didn't like the result. The Luddites managed to pass on information quite happily in a world with no tabloids.
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Bob no malice taken,I like people with their own opinion,and certainly do not expect everyone to agree with mine.
Unfortunately it seams as though only people of a certain age,50 plus or the grammer school generation seam to want politics to be for the best for everyone and not just the few.
The lack of opportunity for the younger generations frightens me,and together with the materialistic world we live in can only result in trouble ahead.
Its time for change,we need great leadership from the top,lets hope someone stands up to be counted
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Leadership.... We talked about the absence of leaders of substance with sensible values a while back. Nothing much has changed has it? Mrs Merkel tried but she's being slowly crucified by both events and the tenor of the times. So now we have leaders of the three most powerful nations on the planet who appear, all, to be engaging in an arms race, a rush for selfish gain and an abandonment of a sense of common feeling. The world is a far more dangerous place today than it has ever been before in my lifetime. And I think it will get worse before it gets better. Can you see any of these three lunatics backing down for the sake of peace when at least one of the other two would emerge as 'winner'. No. I can't see it either. Pick your flashpoint chaps....
BobG
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The world is a far more dangerous place today than it has ever been before in my lifetime
Nah, come on Bob, you might not remember the Vietnam War but it certainly happened in your lifetime - when the US military threatened to use nuclear weapons on the Viet Cong (instead of sending in and potentially loosing thousands of troops which is what actually happened) but were pevented from doing so by some slightly wiser politicians:
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/worst-idea-ever-dropping-nuclear-bombs-during-the-vietnam-13668
That however is not the most dangerous place the world has been in during your lifetime, this is (from the book, The Untold History of the US by Oliver Stone):
27th October 1962, the Soviet convoy is on its way to Cuba when 'an incident occurred that has been described as "not only the most dangerous moment of the Cold War. It was the most dangerous moment in human history"'.
A navy carrier group led by USS Randolph began dropping depth charges near a Soviet B-59 submarine that was protecting the convoy - unaware that the sub was armed with nuclear weapons. The attack went on for around four hours, knocking out the sub's air circulation system and leading to a build up of CO2 inside. Some of the crew began to panic and the commander tried to contact the general staff for help. Unable to reach them, he too then began to panic and thinking that war had already broken out, ordered the torpedoes ready for action. Fortunately the other two officers on board managed to persuade him not to launch, thus preventing nuclear war.
That Bob is the most dangerous place the world has been in during your lifetime - and however many missiles NATO has in Poland, ships Russia has in Kallingrad or annoyed China is over Taiwan, we are a long way from that type of decisive flash point. We are far too connected economically and socially right now.
That of course may change.
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Hmm. Yes. Cuba was damn dangerous. Ok. I'll buy that one. I was alive then. And that date in 1982 (??) when the Russians thought the West was about to come crashing through Berlin and beyond was pretty damn scary too. I certainly do remember Vietnam too Wilts. it was the daily lead story on the news for half my young life. I wasn't aware the US tactical geniuses had threatened to use nukes there though. But then, that's the military for you surely? Were the politicians ever in danger of allowing them to do so?
I still think the world today is a damn dangerous place, and that it's getting more and more so. I don't buy tthe economic connection argument. Putin, and Russia, are 19th century imperialists. In many ways Russia has been roughly 100 years behind the west for two centuries. Politically, economically and socially, they're still a long, long way behind. Power = right. Their drivers are different to ours. That's why this is so dangerous. There's a such a huge prize in the offing for Putin and Russia that they can hardly turn it down. They are reaching the point where they have a chance to destroy NATO's credibility - if not it's actual existance. That's a prize worth taking risks for. Putin isn't going to turn it down. Unless Trump consistently displays plenty of unseen subtlety and skill, there's a challenge coming sometime, somewhere, in the next few years.
Cheers
BobG
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I think this event is often regarded as the world's most dangerous moment/nearest miss:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Soviet_nuclear_false_alarm_incident
Some other ones here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_nuclear_close_calls
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Is this the same incident, Brian, as the NATO exercise in Europe that the USSR believed was a cover to a land invasion? I wasn't aware of the Minuteman false alarm so the hyperbole that still surrounds Able Archer always led me to think that that, and Cuba, were the closest NATO and the Warsaw Pact came to blows.
BobG
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The Able Archer exercise you talk about took place a couple of months later Bob, with this incident as part of the backdrop/context. Of course NATO/US probably did not know about the Petrov incident at the time.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Able_Archer_83
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Oh wow.... No wonder the Russians were twitchy....! Especially after months of US aggression, posturing, rhetoric and threats. One day somebody is going to make a mistake that isn't recovered by human common sense.
BobG
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So today Theresa May set out her stall on Brexit.
Funny how all those people who have been demanding that she states her position are now complaining when she is doing just that.
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That's because there's a difference between knowing you're going to be in the shit and then finding out just how deep the shit is going to be!
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The decision was made by the population in the UK not the Government - Cameron believed after many of his steamroller decisions on other matters that this would go through as remain. BUT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Wrong, everybody had the freedom to choose. Shit or not. The decision was made. and now legal challenge upon legal challenge blah blah - democracy indeed
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38641208
People who voted Brexit "did so with their eyes open", the prime minister said, calling the vote a "great moment of national change".
I call bullshit on that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpnbSZGlhq4
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Simplistic viewpoint maybe, but shouldn't the "exit strategy" have been determined and agreed by parliament, BEFORE presenting to the electorate in the referendum, therefore folks would know what was being actually voted for??
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David Cameron Cock sure he was going to win.
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Simplistic viewpoint maybe, but shouldn't the "exit strategy" have been determined and agreed by parliament, BEFORE presenting to the electorate in the referendum, therefore folks would know what was being actually voted for??
in a word, yes!
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So when are we leaving then or have we still not set a date
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If on the ballet paper it mentioned article if we wanted "Hard or Soft Brexit" and what that means I wonder if the understanding of that implication would have had an influence on the final result .
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Supreme court rules parliament must have vote to trigger article 50
The government has lost its fast-tracked appeal to the supreme court, forcing ministers to introduce emergency legislation into parliament to authorise the UK’s departure from the EU.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/24/supreme-court-brexit-ruling-parliament-vote-article-50
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Theresa May will probably be miffed although IMO they should have cracked on with a vote in Parliament once the High Court ruled the way it did.
Theresa is miffed, as I say, but Wee Jimmy Krankie hasn't taken the other decision - that the devolved administrations don't need to be consulted - well at all.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/nicola-sturgeons-brexit-charade-continues/
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Wee Jimmy Krankie hasn't taken the other decision - that the devolved administrations don't need to be consulted - well at all.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/nicola-sturgeons-brexit-charade-continues/
Can one of the sanctimonious pro EU remainiacs explain the case for Scottish independence within the EU after Britain leaves,how that will be achieved and its likely consequences?
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I think it's more one for the SNP to answer really. Odd kind of independence if you ask me.
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Spain and France would never allow an independent Scotland to join.
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Wee Jimmy Krankie hasn't taken the other decision - that the devolved administrations don't need to be consulted - well at all.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/nicola-sturgeons-brexit-charade-continues/
Can one of the sanctimonious pro EU remainiacs explain the case for Scottish independence within the EU after Britain leaves,how that will be achieved and its likely consequences?
The only case that needs to be made is that it's what the Scottish people want. This voting stuff IS all about democracy whether the resulting decision is good or bad, isn't it?
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Wee Jimmy Krankie hasn't taken the other decision - that the devolved administrations don't need to be consulted - well at all.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/nicola-sturgeons-brexit-charade-continues/
Can one of the sanctimonious pro EU remainiacs explain the case for Scottish independence within the EU after Britain leaves,how that will be achieved and its likely consequences?
The only case that needs to be made is that it's what the Scottish people want. This voting stuff IS all about democracy whether the resulting decision is good or bad, isn't it?
The Scottish people voted to remain in the UK, The UK voted to leave the EU, thats democracy at work, how wee Jimmy can argue for for a second referendum on indepenence is beyond me!
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Because his party is meaningless if independence goes off the radar.
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Wee Jimmy Krankie hasn't taken the other decision - that the devolved administrations don't need to be consulted - well at all.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/nicola-sturgeons-brexit-charade-continues/
Can one of the sanctimonious pro EU remainiacs explain the case for Scottish independence within the EU after Britain leaves,how that will be achieved and its likely consequences?
The only case that needs to be made is that it's what the Scottish people want. This voting stuff IS all about democracy whether the resulting decision is good or bad, isn't it?
The Scottish people voted to remain in the UK, The UK voted to leave the EU, thats democracy at work, how wee Jimmy can argue for for a second referendum on indepenence is beyond me!
Because the circumstances of remaining part of the UK has substantially altered. Rather like those times when membership of the EU altered and leavers demanded to be able to vote on it!
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Wee Jimmy Krankie hasn't taken the other decision - that the devolved administrations don't need to be consulted - well at all.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/nicola-sturgeons-brexit-charade-continues/
Can one of the sanctimonious pro EU remainiacs explain the case for Scottish independence within the EU after Britain leaves,how that will be achieved and its likely consequences?
The only case that needs to be made is that it's what the Scottish people want. This voting stuff IS all about democracy whether the resulting decision is good or bad, isn't it?
The Scottish people voted to remain in the UK, The UK voted to leave the EU, thats democracy at work, how wee Jimmy can argue for for a second referendum on indepenence is beyond me!
Because the circumstances of remaining part of the UK has substantially altered. Rather like those times when membership of the EU altered and leavers demanded to be able to vote on it!
The difference is the people of the UK never got a vote to join the EU, the only vote the UK people had was to join the Common Market, a Free trade deal
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Wee Jimmy Krankie hasn't taken the other decision - that the devolved administrations don't need to be consulted - well at all.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/nicola-sturgeons-brexit-charade-continues/
Can one of the sanctimonious pro EU remainiacs explain the case for Scottish independence within the EU after Britain leaves,how that will be achieved and its likely consequences?
Presumably it is the same case the Government used, most of whom had voted to give sovereignty back to Parliament from Europe, when they decided not to give sovereignty back to Parliament over Europe. And then attempted to challenge the courts when they told them they couldn't act like a tinpot dictatorship. Seems like the idea of Brexit has scrambled a few minds already.
The likely consequences. I believe Brexit has made it more likely there will be a second referendum over Scottish independence sooner rather than later and the differences over this question and the future direction of the economy has made it rather more likely to succeed this time. If there will still be a Europe for Scotland to join will depend on a lot of factors, not least of which are the various elections in Europe this year.
How that will be achived? Presumably the same way the first one was. Bills in Parliament and stuff, go check the procedure yourself and then you will know, why shoud I do it for you?
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Wee Jimmy Krankie hasn't taken the other decision - that the devolved administrations don't need to be consulted - well at all.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/nicola-sturgeons-brexit-charade-continues/
Can one of the sanctimonious pro EU remainiacs explain the case for Scottish independence within the EU after Britain leaves,how that will be achieved and its likely consequences?
The only case that needs to be made is that it's what the Scottish people want. This voting stuff IS all about democracy whether the resulting decision is good or bad, isn't it?
The Scottish people voted to remain in the UK, The UK voted to leave the EU, thats democracy at work, how wee Jimmy can argue for for a second referendum on indepenence is beyond me!
Because the circumstances of remaining part of the UK has substantially altered. Rather like those times when membership of the EU altered and leavers demanded to be able to vote on it!
The difference is the people of the UK never got a vote to join the EU, the only vote the UK people had was to join the Common Market, a Free trade deal
Just like we are not going to get a vote on our future relationship with Europe, and the rest of the world for that matter, one we have left the EU. That's politics for you.
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Wee Jimmy Krankie hasn't taken the other decision - that the devolved administrations don't need to be consulted - well at all.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/nicola-sturgeons-brexit-charade-continues/
Can one of the sanctimonious pro EU remainiacs explain the case for Scottish independence within the EU after Britain leaves,how that will be achieved and its likely consequences?
The only case that needs to be made is that it's what the Scottish people want. This voting stuff IS all about democracy whether the resulting decision is good or bad, isn't it?
The Scottish people voted to remain in the UK, The UK voted to leave the EU, thats democracy at work, how wee Jimmy can argue for for a second referendum on indepenence is beyond me!
Because the circumstances of remaining part of the UK has substantially altered. Rather like those times when membership of the EU altered and leavers demanded to be able to vote on it!
The difference is the people of the UK never got a vote to join the EU, the only vote the UK people had was to join the Common Market, a Free trade deal
Well, Scotland has now voted on the EU as it is now. Should their votes be ignored?
PS The UK never voted to join the Common Market either.
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Wee Jimmy Krankie hasn't taken the other decision - that the devolved administrations don't need to be consulted - well at all.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/nicola-sturgeons-brexit-charade-continues/
Can one of the sanctimonious pro EU remainiacs explain the case for Scottish independence within the EU after Britain leaves,how that will be achieved and its likely consequences?
The only case that needs to be made is that it's what the Scottish people want. This voting stuff IS all about democracy whether the resulting decision is good or bad, isn't it?
The Scottish people voted to remain in the UK, The UK voted to leave the EU, thats democracy at work, how wee Jimmy can argue for for a second referendum on indepenence is beyond me!
Because the circumstances of remaining part of the UK has substantially altered. Rather like those times when membership of the EU altered and leavers demanded to be able to vote on it!
The difference is the people of the UK never got a vote to join the EU, the only vote the UK people had was to join the Common Market, a Free trade deal
Well, Scotland has now voted on the EU as it is now. Should their votes be ignored?
PS The UK never voted to join the Common Market either.
A technicality Glyn, the UK voted to remain a member of the common market.
Scotland voted to remain in the UK, and as such should accept the decision of the UK, much like England has to accept that the election of many SNP MP's at the expense of Labour MP's in Scotland heavily contributed to a Tory Government. Incidently in the 1974 referendum the SNP campained to leave the Common Market
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Interesting article ;)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38743532
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What 1974 referendum..? lol
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What 1974 referendum..? lol
OK Glyn, I was a year out, but my point stays the same
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OK Glyn pedantic as usual it was 1975
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I just hope the Brexit will not have immediate consequences for me on finding a job there in the next few months.
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Wee Jimmy Krankie hasn't taken the other decision - that the devolved administrations don't need to be consulted - well at all.
http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/01/nicola-sturgeons-brexit-charade-continues/
Can one of the sanctimonious pro EU remainiacs explain the case for Scottish independence within the EU after Britain leaves,how that will be achieved and its likely consequences?
The only case that needs to be made is that it's what the Scottish people want. This voting stuff IS all about democracy whether the resulting decision is good or bad, isn't it?
The Scottish people voted to remain in the UK, The UK voted to leave the EU, thats democracy at work, how wee Jimmy can argue for for a second referendum on indepenence is beyond me!
Because the circumstances of remaining part of the UK has substantially altered. Rather like those times when membership of the EU altered and leavers demanded to be able to vote on it!
The difference is the people of the UK never got a vote to join the EU, the only vote the UK people had was to join the Common Market, a Free trade deal
Well, Scotland has now voted on the EU as it is now. Should their votes be ignored?
PS The UK never voted to join the Common Market either.
A technicality Glyn, the UK voted to remain a member of the common market.
Scotland voted to remain in the UK, and as such should accept the decision of the UK, much like England has to accept that the election of many SNP MP's at the expense of Labour MP's in Scotland heavily contributed to a Tory Government. Incidently in the 1974 referendum the SNP campained to leave the Common Market
Filo you have conveniently forgotten that the Scots were persuaded to remain in the UK by the threat that they would lose their membership of the EU . That fact, many pundits believe, swung the Scots round from Independence......now they are rightfully pissed.
We all will be soon when we realise it's not going to be anywhere as easy as the Tory grandees predicted to get meaningful business post Brexit. When inflation starts to hurt, jobs start to go to Europe and we stagnate then and only then will many of you Brexiters realise that you have not only sold out your Labour roots but yourselves and the future well being of our country.
We are f**ked and Treeza is left stumbleing about looking for meaningful deals with 2nd rate dictators once she has used up the 1st rate one's she is fast running out of .
For what some effing sovereignty because we have made naff all inroads into cutting down on immigration these last few years. Why because it feeds this economy hence the reason that unemployment is so low.
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The whole immigration argument, which is THE main reason many voted to leave the EU, is one giant smokescreen that the Tories will never tire of using. Fact don't matter anymore. Those who come up with the lies and "alternative facts" then have the audacity to claim those who actually use facts as spreading "fake news". It's f**king depressing
Take just one lie that leavers spouted - that EU nationals are all on benefits and it's cost the country too much:
Looking at benefits for people out of work, migrants from both within and outside the EU are less likely to claim benefits than UK nationals. DWP statistics show that as of February 2015, just over 5 million people were claiming welfare benefits; of those, about 370,000 (7.2 per cent) were non-UK nationals (at the time that they registered for a National Insurance number; and of those, only 114,000 (2.2 percent of the total) were EU nationals. Since those born abroad make up 16 percent of the working age population, and those born in the EU make up about 6 percent, it can be seen that migrants of both types are considerably less likely to claim out-of-work benefits.
http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/welfare/2015/11/migrant-benefits-qa-how-much-do-they-claim-there-problem-and-what-does-pm
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how about the flip side - "EU nationals take all our jobs and are pushing services to breaking point without paying in":
The Office of National Statistics says that while the numbers of EU workers in Britain has risen by 700,000 since 2013, they are outnumbered by the extra one million Britons who have gone into employment in the same period. The number of British citizens working in the UK labour force is now at the near-record level of 28 million. That compares with 3 million foreign nationals.
As the economist Jonathan Portes has pointed out, it is not a zero-sum game in which there are only a fixed number of jobs to go round: “It’s true that, if an immigrant takes a job, then a British worker can’t take that job – but it doesn’t mean he or she won’t find another one that may have been created, directly or indirectly, as a result of immigration.”
HMRC figures also show that EU migrants more than pay their way. Those who arrived in Britain in the last four years paid £2.54bn more in income tax and national insurance than they received in tax credits or child benefit in 2013-14. The Office of Budget Responsibility has estimated that their labour contribution is helping to grow the economy by an additional 0.6% a year.
The LSE’s Jonathan Wadsworth said: “The bottom line, which may surprise many people, is that EU immigration has not harmed the pay, jobs or public services enjoyed by Britons. In fact, for the most part it has likely made us better off.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/20/reality-check-are-eu-migrants-really-taking-british-jobs
It took me 2 mins too google this shit - why can't others do the same? We all know why, but no-one likes to say it out loud
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I just hope the Brexit will not have immediate consequences for me on finding a job there in the next few months.
I hope so too mate.
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Brexit is already costing British businesses; it's cost my employer and extra £800 p/a just in Microsoft Office365 fees alone!
For a company of 200 employees who use the same system it will cost them an additional £8000 p/a
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And "down my way" has lost £60m because foreign students aren't coming to learn the language. http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/15050247.Drop_in_foreign_student_numbers_since_Brexit/ (http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/news/15050247.Drop_in_foreign_student_numbers_since_Brexit/)
But it's all good news. Nothing bad. It's fine all this taking back control. Nothing bad's happening at all... :suicide:
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We can all quote from opposite sides its the balance thats important some parts will lose some will gain :) lets all get over it accept the result and do the best possible
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Well, I am still waiting for some good to come out of this. I suspect it might be wise not to hold my breath.
No-one needs to get over anything, btw. That's democracy for you. ;)
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At the end of the day we are all in it together. Every time there is a vote somebody has to lose.
I wonder where we would be now had Labour won the last election?
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There are two kinds of immigration,legal, and illegal.
As I understand it anyone who is a national of an E.U. member country has the right to go to any other member country for employment.
I have no problem with this at all,also i have no problem with their skin colour or creed whatsoever.
What I do have a problem with is illegal immigration.
I was brought up to live within the laws of the land,and would expect to be punished by those laws if i undertook to break them.
Yet a whole raft of illegal immigrants have entered this country,mainly for economic reasons and our political class have bent over backwards to cover it up,even calling for an amnesty.
They themselves are open to be exploited jn housing, and employment, and by crime.
Because of this they tend to congregate in one area in towns,do not try to integrate with other people or customs and this causes resentment by people who feel they are being pushed out and forgotten.
The law of the land has to be implemented,or should be. We have let resentment win by sleepwalking into a situation that has alienated a large proportion of the population mainly because the political elite have played the race card, because the main illegal immigrants are coloured or from North African or Muslim countries.
The sad thing is,although this has nothing to do with membership of the E.U. I feel it had a massive bearing on the result of the referendum.
I found it hard to argue that the vote should have been on an economic basis before the vote,even though I live, and go for a drink in a quite affluent area, and was surprised at the feeling of resentment of my mates.
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So it's a good thing that our border controls slackened and worsened when a certain Theresa May was Home Secretary... A woman known for saying the right thing at the right time but actually not any good at doing anything.
As I said, I'd love to see some silver lining but it's just constantly pissing it down.
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Having lived and worked for a British owned company on the continent of Europe for more than 40 years I am now retired in Belgium where half of my family live .My first daughter who was born in Spain but brought up in Italy and Belgium is the only one of the family now in UK ( London). Of course after all these years we quite understandably had lost our rights to vote in the referendum.I am still not able to gauge what impact Brexit will have on me and my wife my daughter, son in law and grand daughter here in Brussels.
They work as Sports Master and Admin secretary at the British school of Brussels which currently has 1500 students most of whom have British parents working for British or multi nationals Belgium .There has not yet been a mass exodus but once Article 50 is triggered the 25,000 British expats in the city will soon be heading off I guess. The school is trying to diversify it's client base by introducing the European baccalaureat besides GCE A level courses to attract other nations ' expats who wish their kids to have an English language secondary education.
Many expats are seeking dual nationality status, either Belgian ,for those who qualify through length of residence ,and others Irish through family ties.I don't feel right using another country's passport as a flag of convenience but if UK and the EU are unable to agree to allow each others nationals to continue to live and work in the respective countries I shall have to do whatever I can to protect my hard earned European rights having already lost all civic and voting rights as a British expat .
I don't get or expect any sympathy on the issue from my British friends nor from the Continentals . Politics is never for the individual pawns in the game is it !
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Lipsy, are there any politicians of any persuasions that you would trust at the minute?
I can't think of any at the minute that I would believe.
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Idler - Not many. Always had (weirdly) a soft spot for Kenneth Clarke - mostly because he's at the end of his career and says what he wants in a "pissed uncle at Christmas" kind of way. Actually, a few of the old guard (much like Ken) I respect even if I don't agree with them. Most of the rest of them can't so much as fart without someone else telling them when it's okay to do so - and that, I think, is what's wrong with politics at the moment. That and the press (from both and all sides), who have entirely too much sway and the power to form public opinion.
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Some truly baffling alternative facts on immigration and free movement bumbling about this thread.
Here's a quote from the EU law on the subject:
"For stays of over three months: the right of residence is subject to certain conditions. EU citizens and their family members — if not working — must have sufficient resources and sickness insurance to ensure that they do not become a burden on the social services of the host Member State during their stay. Union citizens do not need residence permits, although Member States may require them to register with the authorities. Family members of Union citizens who are not nationals of a Member State must apply for a residence permit, valid for the duration of their stay or a five-year period."
We have the right to refuse anyone we want. We always did. We get to decide what "sufficient resources" means. We get to grant or deny - and even revoke - residence permits if we want. That the Tories are currently making out like free movement is the answer to all our countries' ills is just going to leave a lot of people feeling quite disappointed when immigration is barely affected.
It's a genuinely confusing strategy from the Tories. They keep allowing immigration to rise to record levels, while simultaneously painting immigrants as some unstoppable virus and blaming them for all our countries' problems. If they don't believe these things, why say it? If they do believe these things, why keep letting them in? It's the one thing I truly don't get. Austerity, bedroom tax, draconian measures at the DWP, while reprehensible, at least make sense from an ideological perspective. The Tory views on immigrants just don't seem to stack up, and it's created a toxic environment where we've voted to take a massive economic hit just to get more control over immigration that we largely already had anyway.
Here's a source for that quote by the way: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/atyourservice/en/displayFtu.html?ftuId=FTU_2.1.3.html
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Yup. My major beef about all of this is that for almost every complaint a Leave voter has about the EU, the actual blame or responsibility for the problem (as they see it) lies with our Government(s). Almost every single time.
Which makes me all the more afraid of what lies in store for the future.
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Well last night the Ministers did what the population agreed to be done, We are going out, with the vote a very big almost 500 saying Yea!!!!! So it is done and interestingly ALL THREE local MP's voted to go out, non of them were on the list who voted against the matter, so in effect, argue or pit your wits against each other it is done, today a "White Paper". and by 31st March we are on our way. Cheerio and all that. WE. no matter which way we voted are gone. End Of ..Que Serra Serra. KARMA or whatever. Done - Gone _ End Of
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Going out isn't a problem Bally - its what we are going out too that people are concerned about.
I would guess as an ex-policeman you wouldn't have any problems going out on the beat. But imagine going out without a helmet, handcuffs, baton, radio or any other form of protection or backup.
That is the situation we are faced with now. OK so we are leaving the protection of the largest trading block in the world - what are we going to replace it with?
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I just hope the Brexit will not have immediate consequences for me on finding a job there in the next few months.
I hope so too mate.
Yes so do I and just remember,for all the sanctimonious pro EU t**ts posting on here from their high horse only one on here offered you a place to stay(to my knowledge anyway)
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Forget all the posturing from polititions on both sides, does anyone really think the big busimess's from Europe are just going to lie down and let the European parliament dictate to them who they can trade with and who they can't?
A lot of what is being said is posturing and scaremongering, from both sides
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I just hope the Brexit will not have immediate consequences for me on finding a job there in the next few months.
I hope so too mate.
Yes so do I and just remember,for all the sanctimonious pro EU t**ts posting on here from their high horse only one on here offered you a place to stay(to my knowledge anyway)
Surely it'd be the job of a Brexiteer to do that given the situation is now of their making...how many have done so - is it more than one?
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Forget all the posturing from polititions on both sides, does anyone really think the big busimess's from Europe are just going to lie down and let the European parliament dictate to them who they can trade with and who they can't?
A lot of what is being said is posturing and scaremongering, from both sides
When has the EU ever dictated to a business who it can or can't trade with? Is that posturing and scaremongering at all?
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I just hope the Brexit will not have immediate consequences for me on finding a job there in the next few months.
I hope so too mate.
Yes so do I and just remember,for all the sanctimonious pro EU t**ts posting on here from their high horse only one on here offered you a place to stay(to my knowledge anyway)
Steve is one that offered me a place to stay until I find a job and my own place. But he wasn't the only one, others offered me their help when I'll return in UK: Gavin, Andy, Rob (who helped me in 2014 when I was in the hospital)...I am impressed that there are enough people who have offered me their help, although they do not know me personally (I only met Rob in 2014).
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Going out isn't a problem Bally - its what we are going out too that people are concerned about.
I would guess as an ex-policeman you wouldn't have any problems going out on the beat. But imagine going out without a helmet, handcuffs, baton, radio or any other form of protection or backup.
That is the situation we are faced with now. OK so we are leaving the protection of the largest trading block in the world - what are we going to replace it with?
Wilts, I truly take your point on the Police thing, yes wore a helmet, baton and handcuffs generally only on nights, radio??when it worked. I worked at Bawtry for 6 yeras, back up nil but perhaps if Notts were passing. I did many years at Thorne and Moorends where I had lived and knew everybody and their dog, played rugby there so what they had ideas about..Yes I also agree that we do not know what we are getting into again perfectly true. But we know what we have been in for forty years. I voted to leave but if we had stayed I would not have created, it is the way..
On my first ever night shift in a remote bit of land now the site of the M18 at Thorne, me and a Bobby who was also a local lad and showing me where to be, got sent to a job and wal;ked into the barrel of a loaded shot gun.. My mate said "Don't run in the same direction as me" laughable but not funny at the time. We got the gun after some George Dixon.... I have also had two knives thrust in my face and several broken bottles, But I signed up for it they all said, just like In or Out this last June.
My lovely late wife once said to me one night when I left for work in Thorne, if I was frightened. (Bearing in mind I had the implements you say, my baton throughout my years was wood, I did not go for the bloody Gun Ho crap..) I kissed her goodnight and replied. I am am being honest here.."I will be alright, I will be home safe to you when you wake up. I cannot say that will be the case of anyone who tries to stop me coming home"
My little story is my way of saying we are in it, we joined and now we left, we cannot control what anyone else may attempt to do but we are certain in our minds that we did what we personally believed in. My wife died aged 46 rs and one week after a seven year battle with Cancer leaving a 9 year old son..Just think if I had not kept coming home who would have helped her through it all, nobody helped me, so I say help yourselves.....Sorry if a bit morbid but that is me
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I just hope the Brexit will not have immediate consequences for me on finding a job there in the next few months.
I hope so too mate.
Yes so do I and just remember,for all the sanctimonious pro EU t**ts posting on here from their high horse only one on here offered you a place to stay(to my knowledge anyway)
Surely it'd be the job of a Brexiteer to do that given the situation is now of their making...how many have done so - is it more than one?
Get over it Glyn, a democratic vote was taken, a decision was made we ll live with it, good or bad, just like America, they got Trump and many are bleating about it, what do people want? Some kind of dictatorship?
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At the end of the day we are all in it together. Every time there is a vote somebody has to lose.
I wonder where we would be now had Labour won the last election?
Well, we wouldn't have had a referendum and Corbyn wouldn't be "leader" of the Labour Party.
Whatever you think of him and his politics (and I do have a certain admiration for him as a man of principle) I don't think there has ever been anyone less suited to the job of leading a major party.
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I just hope the Brexit will not have immediate consequences for me on finding a job there in the next few months.
I hope so too mate.
Yes so do I and just remember,for all the sanctimonious pro EU t**ts posting on here from their high horse only one on here offered you a place to stay(to my knowledge anyway)
Surely it'd be the job of a Brexiteer to do that given the situation is now of their making...how many have done so - is it more than one?
Get over it Glyn, a democratic vote was taken, a decision was made we ll live with it, good or bad, just like America, they got Trump and many are bleating about it, what do people want? Some kind of dictatorship?
No answer then, I take it. Was the decision I have to 'get over' made by people who genuinely believe the EU dictate to businesses who they can trade with?
PS. It feels to me that continually being told to 'get over it' a form of dictatorship in itself. Especially when it's a means of evading giving an answer to a pertinent question..!
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I'm not sure what you're asking in the first place Glyn, I took your comment as another mardy dig and you were just stamping your feet because the demacratic vote did n't go the way you would have liked
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I'm not sure what you're asking in the first place Glyn, I took your comment as another mardy dig and you were just stamping your feet because the demacratic vote did n't go the way you would have liked
A lot of people are just angry because the democratic vote should have been left to those who understood what we were voting for and the potential disastrous consequences of leaving, some of which are coming to fruition. It's a bitter pill to swallow, especially when it affects many people directly and financially. Let's remember, this wasn't a normal democratic vote which can be undone with the change of government in 5 years; this decision is going to affect us all for the rest of our lives. When some prat in Barnsley can vote us out the EU to "stop those muslim syrians coming to our country", then yeah, I'm going to be bitter and pissed off!
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I'm not sure what you're asking in the first place Glyn, I took your comment as another mardy dig and you were just stamping your feet because the demacratic vote did n't go the way you would have liked
A lot of people are just angry because the democratic vote should have been left to those who understood what we were voting for and the potential disastrous consequences of leaving, some of which are coming to fruition. It's a bitter pill to swallow, especially when it affects many people directly and financially. Let's remember, this wasn't a normal democratic vote which can be undone with the change of government in 5 years; this decision is going to affect us all for the rest of our lives. When some prat in Barnsley can vote us out the EU to "stop those muslim syrians coming to our country", then yeah, I'm going to be bitter and pissed off!
So what qualifying criteria should someone have had to take part in the referendum? And why can't that prat in Barnsley have an opinion?
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A lot of people are just angry because the democratic vote should have been left to those who understood what we were voting for and the potential disastrous consequences of leaving, some of which are coming to fruition. It's a bitter pill to swallow, especially when it affects many people directly and financially. Let's remember, this wasn't a normal democratic vote which can be undone with the change of government in 5 years; this decision is going to affect us all for the rest of our lives. When some prat in Barnsley can vote us out the EU to "stop those muslim syrians coming to our country", then yeah, I'm going to be bitter and pissed off!
[/quote]Im sure you would have looked really cool in your black uniform and jack boots.
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So what qualifying criteria should someone have had to take part in the referendum? And why can't that prat in Barnsley have an opinion?
You think everyone in the UK should be asked "yes" or "no" to such a complicated question, when no-one really knew (and still doesn't know) the impact of the result?
That prat in Barnsley, and me, and you, shouldn't be asked for the same reason we're not asked to write economic policy, foreign policy or any other policy. We're not qualified to do so; we vote in politicians to shape these policies for us and they should present us with reasoned arguments to the pros and cons of leaving.
This is all old ground that has been covered, but there was only one reason Cameron pushed the referendum and that was to appease back-benchers in his own party. He's a f**kwit, hence him quitting as an MP altogether when his most stupid mistake whilst being MP came back to bit him in his arse.
For such a decision to be made ie the vote be put to a referendum, the pro's should've overwhelmingly outweighed the cons IMO, and they simply do not.
Im sure you would have looked really cool in your black uniform and jack boots.
You've lost me? A joke about me being a like German soldier perhaps? Sorry; I'm sure it's witty and funny though.
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As far as i know, we still have the right of free thought and choice, to make our own minds up about how we want to live. Dont plead ignorance for me, i know what i want.
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As far as i know, we still have the right of free thought and choice, to make our own minds up about how we want to live. Dont plead ignorance for me, i know what i want.
Apart from Remainers, obviously. According to some, anyway.
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Im sure you would have looked really cool in your black uniform and jack boots.
You've lost me? A joke about me being a like German soldier perhaps? Sorry; I'm sure it's witty and funny though.
Black uniform was the SS BJM. Probably even wittier and funnier!
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As far as i know, we still have the right of free thought and choice, to make our own minds up about how we want to live. Dont plead ignorance for me, i know what i want.
Apart from Remainers, obviously. According to some, anyway.
There are no f**king remainers, we're ALL out. Live with it.
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For such a decision to be made ie the vote be put to a referendum, the pro's should've overwhelmingly outweighed the cons IMO, and they simply do not.
In your opinion.
Nobody knows if it was the right thing to do or the wrong thing to do. We'll have a better idea in years and decades time. So we come back to the same old argument. More people disagree with you than agree with you. It's called democracy.
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As far as i know, we still have the right of free thought and choice, to make our own minds up about how we want to live. Dont plead ignorance for me, i know what i want.
Apart from Remainers, obviously. According to some, anyway.
There are no f**king remainers, we're ALL out. Live with it.
I rest my case. Thanks for illustrating it so impeccably.
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You're very welcome.
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As far as i know, we still have the right of free thought and choice, to make our own minds up about how we want to live. Dont plead ignorance for me, i know what i want.
Apart from Remainers, obviously. According to some, anyway.
Glyn, you had your vote, as did the country. you had the right of free thought and choice, just the same as all the people that voted to leave. Dont make out that you were robbed of anything.
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As far as i know, we still have the right of free thought and choice, to make our own minds up about how we want to live. Dont plead ignorance for me, i know what i want.
Apart from Remainers, obviously. According to some, anyway.
Glyn, you had your vote, as did the country. you had the right of free thought and choice, just the same as all the people that voted to leave. Dont make out that you were robbed of anything.
Then why are Remainers continually told to shut up by the likes of BB as above? Don't I and any other Remainers still have the right to have opinions and air them in just the same way as Brexiteers or has the result of the referendum taken that away from us?
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I never told you to shut up, I suggested that you should live with it. If you're content to come across as someone stamping his feet in a tantrum because you've not got your own way then that is entirely your prerogative.
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I never told you to shut up, I suggested that you should live with it. If you're content to come across as someone stamping his feet in a tantrum because you've not got your own way is entirely your prerogative.
To me, 'live with it' means the same thing as 'shut up about it'. But you say they're not the same thing, so must you think I can 'live with it' but still be able to disagree with it at the same time..? Isn't that exactly what I'm doing?
PS If people equate me thinking the result of the referendum is the one of the most monumental follies the British public has perpetrated with 'having a tantrum' then I think that says more about their perception than mine.
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I also voted to remain, and I'm living with it. You voted to remain, and you're moaning about it. We BOTH lost.
What is your point in arguing the toss? Do you believe in democracy, or only when it suits?
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I also voted to remain, and I'm living with it. You voted to remain, and you're moaning about it. We BOTH lost.
What is your point in arguing the toss? Do you believe in democracy, or only when it suits?
Of course I believe in democracy, I accept the result, we're leaving the EU. It doesn't stop me disagreeing with the result, or thinking it is utter stupidity. Nor does it mean I have to stop having my opinion about it, or having the right to air it. How does that equate to 'having a tantrum'?
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You're entitled to think voting out was a mistake, but you're in the minority. You lost. What is the point of going on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on, and on about it?
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Because I don't look at it as 'I' lost. I think the whole country lost.
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Yes, you've said that, umpteen times.
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In a democracy, you have the freedom to say the things that people don't want to hear...
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Brexit is already costing British businesses; it's cost my employer and extra £800 p/a just in Microsoft Office365 fees alone!
For a company of 200 employees who use the same system it will cost them an additional £8000 p/a
Just wondering, why has the cost of a product, produced by a US multinational technology company, cost you more as a result of a Brexit that hasn't yet happened - genuine question?
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Going out isn't a problem Bally - its what we are going out too that people are concerned about.
I would guess as an ex-policeman you wouldn't have any problems going out on the beat. But imagine going out without a helmet, handcuffs, baton, radio or any other form of protection or backup.
That is the situation we are faced with now. OK so we are leaving the protection of the largest trading block in the world - what are we going to replace it with?
Surely we are leaving, but not loosing our trading ability - Europe needs to continue trade with us equally, if not more, than we need to continue trading with them.
I see an agreement on a Customs Union to continue the equilibrium in Europe...... In addition the UK would be free to strike up trade deals with other markets. Britain’s links with the EU are holding back its focus on emerging markets – there is no major trade deal with China or India, for example - leaving would allow the UK to diversify.
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So what qualifying criteria should someone have had to take part in the referendum? And why can't that prat in Barnsley have an opinion?
You think everyone in the UK should be asked "yes" or "no" to such a complicated question, when no-one really knew (and still doesn't know) the impact of the result?
That prat in Barnsley, and me, and you, shouldn't be asked for the same reason we're not asked to write economic policy, foreign policy or any other policy. We're not qualified to do so; we vote in politicians to shape these policies for us and they should present us with reasoned arguments to the pros and cons of leaving.
This is all old ground that has been covered, but there was only one reason Cameron pushed the referendum and that was to appease back-benchers in his own party. He's a f**kwit, hence him quitting as an MP altogether when his most stupid mistake whilst being MP came back to bit him in his arse.
For such a decision to be made ie the vote be put to a referendum, the pro's should've overwhelmingly outweighed the cons IMO, and they simply do not.
Im sure you would have looked really cool in your black uniform and jack boots.
You've lost me? A joke about me being a like German soldier perhaps? Sorry; I'm sure it's witty and funny though.
By your reasoning, the referendum to join the common market many years ago should n't have taken place?
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Not at all - but in both cases the the pros and cons should've been clear, established, agreed upon by a majority of MP's, and put to the electorate in plenty of time before it was put to a vote. Surely you agree that's how these things should be done?
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Going out isn't a problem Bally - its what we are going out too that people are concerned about.
I would guess as an ex-policeman you wouldn't have any problems going out on the beat. But imagine going out without a helmet, handcuffs, baton, radio or any other form of protection or backup.
That is the situation we are faced with now. OK so we are leaving the protection of the largest trading block in the world - what are we going to replace it with?
Surely we are leaving, but not loosing our trading ability - Europe needs to continue trade with us equally, if not more, than we need to continue trading with them.
I see an agreement on a Customs Union to continue the equilibrium in Europe...... In addition the UK would be free to strike up trade deals with other markets. Britain’s links with the EU are holding back its focus on emerging markets – there is no major trade deal with China or India, for example - leaving would allow the UK to diversify.
According to the White Paper debated in Parliament the other day, it sets out leaving the Customs Union. Which is going to make every import and export to/from the EU that the UK has more expensive due to the costs of Customs Clearance, Customs documentation preparation and presentation (you know, that red tape we're supposed to be getting rid of, we're actually going to have a lot more of instead!), demurrage costs, Customs examination costs and accompanying deliverance delays...and all that is before any Customs Duty and VAT that we didn't have to pay before is levied. So of course we're still free to trade with the EU...but trading with the EU won't be free!
As for developing markets, we already have those through the WTO under GSP - including China and India, so you're wrong as they do have a major trade agreement. And no third world country is going to want a brand-new reciprocal free trade agreement with the UK when they've already got a one-way duty free movement agreement in their favour already!
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Brexit is already costing British businesses; it's cost my employer and extra £800 p/a just in Microsoft Office365 fees alone!
For a company of 200 employees who use the same system it will cost them an additional £8000 p/a
Just wondering, why has the cost of a product, produced by a US multinational technology company, cost you more as a result of a Brexit that hasn't yet happened - genuine question?
At a guess, the FX impact.
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Brexit is already costing British businesses; it's cost my employer and extra £800 p/a just in Microsoft Office365 fees alone!
For a company of 200 employees who use the same system it will cost them an additional £8000 p/a
Just wondering, why has the cost of a product, produced by a US multinational technology company, cost you more as a result of a Brexit that hasn't yet happened - genuine question?
At a guess, the FX impact.
Drop in the £ against the $?
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Going out isn't a problem Bally - its what we are going out too that people are concerned about.
I would guess as an ex-policeman you wouldn't have any problems going out on the beat. But imagine going out without a helmet, handcuffs, baton, radio or any other form of protection or backup.
That is the situation we are faced with now. OK so we are leaving the protection of the largest trading block in the world - what are we going to replace it with?
Surely we are leaving, but not loosing our trading ability - Europe needs to continue trade with us equally, if not more, than we need to continue trading with them.
I see an agreement on a Customs Union to continue the equilibrium in Europe...... In addition the UK would be free to strike up trade deals with other markets. Britain’s links with the EU are holding back its focus on emerging markets – there is no major trade deal with China or India, for example - leaving would allow the UK to diversify.
According to the White Paper debated in Parliament the other day, it sets out leaving the Customs Union. Which is going to make every import and export to/from the EU that the UK has more expensive due to the costs of Customs Clearance, Customs documentation preparation and presentation (you know, that red tape we're supposed to be getting rid of, we're actually going to have a lot more of instead!), demurrage costs, Customs examination costs and accompanying deliverance delays...and all that is before any Customs Duty and VAT that we didn't have to pay before is levied. So of course we're still free to trade with the EU...but trading with the EU won't be free!
As for developing markets, we already have those through the WTO under GSP - including China and India, so you're wrong as they do have a major trade agreement. And no third world country is going to want a brand-new reciprocal free trade agreement with the UK when they've already got a one-way duty free movement agreement in their favour already!
I said a Customs Union - rather than the Customs Union - I should have been more clear. I don't see the EU playing hard ball on Brexit and I feel a compromise agreement will be made so that free trade can continue. We import more goods from the EU than we export, so they would be cutting of the noses to spite their faces if they chose to be too constrictive...
The Secretary of State for International Trade, Liam Fox has said that 10 countries are already lined up to make deals with the UK, including India, China, Japan, Australia and Canada. Chinese President Xi Jinping has been quoted as saying that he is "entirely open to a bilateral trading relationship" and Free Trade Agreement (FTA) negotiations with the EU and India have been going on for more than nine years, without agreement. A negotiation with the UK could be relatively easy to complete on a bilateral level.
I don't know (like all of us) if Brexit will mean the UK will prosper; however, negotiating on behalf of one party rather than 28 has to be easier to work through.
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Brexit is already costing British businesses; it's cost my employer and extra £800 p/a just in Microsoft Office365 fees alone!
For a company of 200 employees who use the same system it will cost them an additional £8000 p/a
Just wondering, why has the cost of a product, produced by a US multinational technology company, cost you more as a result of a Brexit that hasn't yet happened - genuine question?
At a guess, the FX impact.
Drop in the £ against the $?
OK - fair point
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Going out isn't a problem Bally - its what we are going out too that people are concerned about.
I would guess as an ex-policeman you wouldn't have any problems going out on the beat. But imagine going out without a helmet, handcuffs, baton, radio or any other form of protection or backup.
That is the situation we are faced with now. OK so we are leaving the protection of the largest trading block in the world - what are we going to replace it with?
Surely we are leaving, but not loosing our trading ability - Europe needs to continue trade with us equally, if not more, than we need to continue trading with them.
I see an agreement on a Customs Union to continue the equilibrium in Europe...... In addition the UK would be free to strike up trade deals with other markets. Britain’s links with the EU are holding back its focus on emerging markets – there is no major trade deal with China or India, for example - leaving would allow the UK to diversify.
According to the White Paper debated in Parliament the other day, it sets out leaving the Customs Union. Which is going to make every import and export to/from the EU that the UK has more expensive due to the costs of Customs Clearance, Customs documentation preparation and presentation (you know, that red tape we're supposed to be getting rid of, we're actually going to have a lot more of instead!), demurrage costs, Customs examination costs and accompanying deliverance delays...and all that is before any Customs Duty and VAT that we didn't have to pay before is levied. So of course we're still free to trade with the EU...but trading with the EU won't be free!
As for developing markets, we already have those through the WTO under GSP - including China and India, so you're wrong as they do have a major trade agreement. And no third world country is going to want a brand-new reciprocal free trade agreement with the UK when they've already got a one-way duty free movement agreement in their favour already!
I said a Customs Union - rather than the Customs Union - I should have been more clear. I don't see the EU playing hard ball on Brexit and I feel a compromise agreement will be made so that free trade can continue. We import more goods from the EU than we export, so they would be cutting of the noses to spite their faces if they chose to be too constrictive...
The Secretary of State for International Trade, Liam Fox has said that 10 countries are already lined up to make deals with the UK, including India, China, Japan, Australia and Canada. Chinese President Xi Jinping has been quoted as saying that he is "entirely open to a bilateral trading relationship" and Free Trade Agreement (FTA) negotiations with the EU and India have been going on for more than nine years, without agreement. A negotiation with the UK could be relatively easy to complete on a bilateral level.
I don't know (like all of us) if Brexit will mean the UK will prosper; however, negotiating on behalf of one party rather than 28 has to be easier to work through.
Even IF there is some sort of different Customs Union (although I have no idea what you consider to be a different form of Custom Union - either you're in one one or you're not), all those costs I've mentioned above will STILL apply. I did say it it was before any Duty and VAT so it applies regardless of Free Trade or not. We are NOT going to be in the Single Market, so Customs Declarations WILL be reimposed for movements between the UK and the EU in both directions. It is not optional, it is going to happen.
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The EU have already said we can not have the same trade deal outside the EU as we have now as a member. Quite logically as it gives free reign for everone else to leave too - which is the last thing they want. The question is how far are we going to go to agree a deal - Hard or Soft Brexit?
You may remember shortly after becoming PM Teresa May went to India to attempt to agree a deal with Modi. This foundered because what India wanted was greater freedom for Indians to study and work in the UK. So to get that started again we would have to agree to his terms. Effectively swapping EU immigration for Indian immigration - I wonder if people knew that was what they may be voting for?
Difficult things these international deals - you have to give something to the other country that they might want...
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Going out isn't a problem Bally - its what we are going out too that people are concerned about.
I would guess as an ex-policeman you wouldn't have any problems going out on the beat. But imagine going out without a helmet, handcuffs, baton, radio or any other form of protection or backup.
That is the situation we are faced with now. OK so we are leaving the protection of the largest trading block in the world - what are we going to replace it with?
Surely we are leaving, but not loosing our trading ability - Europe needs to continue trade with us equally, if not more, than we need to continue trading with them.
I see an agreement on a Customs Union to continue the equilibrium in Europe...... In addition the UK would be free to strike up trade deals with other markets. Britain’s links with the EU are holding back its focus on emerging markets – there is no major trade deal with China or India, for example - leaving would allow the UK to diversify.
According to the White Paper debated in Parliament the other day, it sets out leaving the Customs Union. Which is going to make every import and export to/from the EU that the UK has more expensive due to the costs of Customs Clearance, Customs documentation preparation and presentation (you know, that red tape we're supposed to be getting rid of, we're actually going to have a lot more of instead!), demurrage costs, Customs examination costs and accompanying deliverance delays...and all that is before any Customs Duty and VAT that we didn't have to pay before is levied. So of course we're still free to trade with the EU...but trading with the EU won't be free!
As for developing markets, we already have those through the WTO under GSP - including China and India, so you're wrong as they do have a major trade agreement. And no third world country is going to want a brand-new reciprocal free trade agreement with the UK when they've already got a one-way duty free movement agreement in their favour already!
I said a Customs Union - rather than the Customs Union - I should have been more clear. I don't see the EU playing hard ball on Brexit and I feel a compromise agreement will be made so that free trade can continue. We import more goods from the EU than we export, so they would be cutting of the noses to spite their faces if they chose to be too constrictive...
The Secretary of State for International Trade, Liam Fox has said that 10 countries are already lined up to make deals with the UK, including India, China, Japan, Australia and Canada. Chinese President Xi Jinping has been quoted as saying that he is "entirely open to a bilateral trading relationship" and Free Trade Agreement (FTA) negotiations with the EU and India have been going on for more than nine years, without agreement. A negotiation with the UK could be relatively easy to complete on a bilateral level.
I don't know (like all of us) if Brexit will mean the UK will prosper; however, negotiating on behalf of one party rather than 28 has to be easier to work through.
Even IF there is some sort of different Customs Union (although I have no idea what you consider to be a different form of Custom Union - either you're in one one or you're not), all those costs I've mentioned above will STILL apply. I did say it it was before any Duty and VAT so it applies regardless of Free Trade or not. We are NOT going to be in the Single Market, so Customs Declarations WILL be reimposed for movements between the UK and the EU in both directions. It is not optional, it is going to happen.
You do seem to be a very angry man and unable to consider others ideas or possible solutions... until we start negotiating nothing is off the table surely - so you cannot categorically state that all of the above will apply... let's wait and see what transpires. I'm purely trying to state that there may be ways around the customs issue - especially as it will actually be to the benefit of the EU to agree to this - time will tell eh.....
Disclaimer..... No CAPITALS or bold were required in this comment..... chill chap.
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The EU have already said we can not have the same trade deal outside the EU as we have now as a member. Quite logically as it gives free reign for everone else to leave too - which is the last thing they want. The question is how far are we going to go to agree a deal - Hard or Soft Brexit?
You may remember shortly after becoming PM Teresa May went to India to attempt to agree a deal with Modi. This foundered because what India wanted was greater freedom for Indians to study and work in the UK. So to get that started again we would have to agree to his terms. Effectively swapping EU immigration for Indian immigration - I wonder if people knew that was what they may be voting for?
Difficult things these international deals - you have to give something to the other country that they might want...
Although as I stated both of the countries that originally mentioned (China and India) have indicated a willingness to talk and both suggested that an agreement could be reached in good time. This would be to the benefit of both and a damn sight easier to complete when the negotiating is between only two parties, rather than 29.
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Going out isn't a problem Bally - its what we are going out too that people are concerned about.
I would guess as an ex-policeman you wouldn't have any problems going out on the beat. But imagine going out without a helmet, handcuffs, baton, radio or any other form of protection or backup.
That is the situation we are faced with now. OK so we are leaving the protection of the largest trading block in the world - what are we going to replace it with?
Surely we are leaving, but not loosing our trading ability - Europe needs to continue trade with us equally, if not more, than we need to continue trading with them.
I see an agreement on a Customs Union to continue the equilibrium in Europe...... In addition the UK would be free to strike up trade deals with other markets. Britain’s links with the EU are holding back its focus on emerging markets – there is no major trade deal with China or India, for example - leaving would allow the UK to diversify.
According to the White Paper debated in Parliament the other day, it sets out leaving the Customs Union. Which is going to make every import and export to/from the EU that the UK has more expensive due to the costs of Customs Clearance, Customs documentation preparation and presentation (you know, that red tape we're supposed to be getting rid of, we're actually going to have a lot more of instead!), demurrage costs, Customs examination costs and accompanying deliverance delays...and all that is before any Customs Duty and VAT that we didn't have to pay before is levied. So of course we're still free to trade with the EU...but trading with the EU won't be free!
As for developing markets, we already have those through the WTO under GSP - including China and India, so you're wrong as they do have a major trade agreement. And no third world country is going to want a brand-new reciprocal free trade agreement with the UK when they've already got a one-way duty free movement agreement in their favour already!
I said a Customs Union - rather than the Customs Union - I should have been more clear. I don't see the EU playing hard ball on Brexit and I feel a compromise agreement will be made so that free trade can continue. We import more goods from the EU than we export, so they would be cutting of the noses to spite their faces if they chose to be too constrictive...
The Secretary of State for International Trade, Liam Fox has said that 10 countries are already lined up to make deals with the UK, including India, China, Japan, Australia and Canada. Chinese President Xi Jinping has been quoted as saying that he is "entirely open to a bilateral trading relationship" and Free Trade Agreement (FTA) negotiations with the EU and India have been going on for more than nine years, without agreement. A negotiation with the UK could be relatively easy to complete on a bilateral level.
I don't know (like all of us) if Brexit will mean the UK will prosper; however, negotiating on behalf of one party rather than 28 has to be easier to work through.
Even IF there is some sort of different Customs Union (although I have no idea what you consider to be a different form of Custom Union - either you're in one one or you're not), all those costs I've mentioned above will STILL apply. I did say it it was before any Duty and VAT so it applies regardless of Free Trade or not. We are NOT going to be in the Single Market, so Customs Declarations WILL be reimposed for movements between the UK and the EU in both directions. It is not optional, it is going to happen.
You do seem to be a very angry man and unable to consider others ideas or possible solutions... until we start negotiating nothing is off the table surely - so you cannot categorically state that all of the above will apply... let's wait and see what transpires. I'm purely trying to state that there may be ways around the customs issue - especially as it will actually be to the benefit of the EU to agree to this - time will tell eh.....
Disclaimer..... No CAPITALS or bold were required in this comment..... chill chap.
I'm sorry, but yes I do know. International Trade was my job for twenty years. The reimposition of Customs controls will not be negotiable. It won't even be negotiated, so I can categorically state that it is all going to happen if we leave the Single Market.
Even if we go for the Norway solution, we will still have to reintroduce Customs clearances for movements between the UK and the EU because then we'd be in the Customs Union but not in the Fiscal Union.
Of course the EU countries want no trade barriers, that's why the Single Market was created. We have said we want to leave the Single Market. The cost of that is the reintroduction of Customs borders and bureaucracy, and that is final I'm afraid.
Oh, and I wouldn't say that I'm angry, but continually banging my head against a brick wall trying to explain all this to people who just want to stick their fingers in their ears and go 'la-la-la-la it's not going to happen' does tend to make me a tad irritable.
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Glyn even with you being in international trade as you say you cannot categorically state anything at this point in time about Brexit and nor can anybody else, you may have an idea what you think might happen same as I think I know what might happen. Perhaps it's you that sticks your fingers in your ears and goes la la la la and won't listen to anything else
Just a thought like :)
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The EU have already said we can not have the same trade deal outside the EU as we have now as a member. Quite logically as it gives free reign for everone else to leave too - which is the last thing they want. The question is how far are we going to go to agree a deal - Hard or Soft Brexit?
You may remember shortly after becoming PM Teresa May went to India to attempt to agree a deal with Modi. This foundered because what India wanted was greater freedom for Indians to study and work in the UK. So to get that started again we would have to agree to his terms. Effectively swapping EU immigration for Indian immigration - I wonder if people knew that was what they may be voting for?
Difficult things these international deals - you have to give something to the other country that they might want...
Although as I stated both of the countries that originally mentioned (China and India) have indicated a willingness to talk and both suggested that an agreement could be reached in good time. This would be to the benefit of both and a damn sight easier to complete when the negotiating is between only two parties, rather than 29.
Agreed that anything is possible, but wouldn't you think that we would be in a stronger negotiating position with a market of 500 million behind us rather than 60 million. Which would be more attractive to India & China?
What can we offer them - and what would they demand from us? The freedom to dump cheap steel? Unrestricted movement of people.
It may be easier to negotiate - but that doesn't necessarily translate to better or a good deal, we shall just have to wait and see - like errr customs duties...
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Glyn even with you being in international trade as you say you cannot categorically state anything at this point in time about Brexit and nor can anybody else, you may have an idea what you think might happen same as I think I know what might happen. Perhaps it's you that sticks your fingers in your ears and goes la la la la and won't listen to anything else
Just a thought like :)
Really? How will the UK collect Duty and VAT (or know that they're exempt) on imports; or exercise export controls without any Customs Declarations? An Honesty Box at the dockside, perhaps?
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Here's one question to anyone doubting me.
And bear in mind 'Free Trade' is NOT the same as 'Customs Union'.
Do any of you actually think that any of the mooted trade deals the UK will be free to negotiate post-Brexit (with the USA, China India, etc.) will result in no Customs Declarations being required when importing or exporting to and from those countries?
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Going out isn't a problem Bally - its what we are going out too that people are concerned about.
I would guess as an ex-policeman you wouldn't have any problems going out on the beat. But imagine going out without a helmet, handcuffs, baton, radio or any other form of protection or backup.
That is the situation we are faced with now. OK so we are leaving the protection of the largest trading block in the world - what are we going to replace it with?
Surely we are leaving, but not loosing our trading ability - Europe needs to continue trade with us equally, if not more, than we need to continue trading with them.
I see an agreement on a Customs Union to continue the equilibrium in Europe...... In addition the UK would be free to strike up trade deals with other markets. Britain’s links with the EU are holding back its focus on emerging markets – there is no major trade deal with China or India, for example - leaving would allow the UK to diversify.
According to the White Paper debated in Parliament the other day, it sets out leaving the Customs Union. Which is going to make every import and export to/from the EU that the UK has more expensive due to the costs of Customs Clearance, Customs documentation preparation and presentation (you know, that red tape we're supposed to be getting rid of, we're actually going to have a lot more of instead!), demurrage costs, Customs examination costs and accompanying deliverance delays...and all that is before any Customs Duty and VAT that we didn't have to pay before is levied. So of course we're still free to trade with the EU...but trading with the EU won't be free!
As for developing markets, we already have those through the WTO under GSP - including China and India, so you're wrong as they do have a major trade agreement. And no third world country is going to want a brand-new reciprocal free trade agreement with the UK when they've already got a one-way duty free movement agreement in their favour already!
I said a Customs Union - rather than the Customs Union - I should have been more clear. I don't see the EU playing hard ball on Brexit and I feel a compromise agreement will be made so that free trade can continue. We import more goods from the EU than we export, so they would be cutting of the noses to spite their faces if they chose to be too constrictive...
The Secretary of State for International Trade, Liam Fox has said that 10 countries are already lined up to make deals with the UK, including India, China, Japan, Australia and Canada. Chinese President Xi Jinping has been quoted as saying that he is "entirely open to a bilateral trading relationship" and Free Trade Agreement (FTA) negotiations with the EU and India have been going on for more than nine years, without agreement. A negotiation with the UK could be relatively easy to complete on a bilateral level.
I don't know (like all of us) if Brexit will mean the UK will prosper; however, negotiating on behalf of one party rather than 28 has to be easier to work through.
Even IF there is some sort of different Customs Union (although I have no idea what you consider to be a different form of Custom Union - either you're in one one or you're not), all those costs I've mentioned above will STILL apply. I did say it it was before any Duty and VAT so it applies regardless of Free Trade or not. We are NOT going to be in the Single Market, so Customs Declarations WILL be reimposed for movements between the UK and the EU in both directions. It is not optional, it is going to happen.
You do seem to be a very angry man and unable to consider others ideas or possible solutions... until we start negotiating nothing is off the table surely - so you cannot categorically state that all of the above will apply... let's wait and see what transpires. I'm purely trying to state that there may be ways around the customs issue - especially as it will actually be to the benefit of the EU to agree to this - time will tell eh.....
Disclaimer..... No CAPITALS or bold were required in this comment..... chill chap.
I'm sorry, but yes I do know. International Trade was my job for twenty years. The reimposition of Customs controls will not be negotiable. It won't even be negotiated, so I can categorically state that it is all going to happen if we leave the Single Market.
Even if we go for the Norway solution, we will still have to reintroduce Customs clearances for movements between the UK and the EU because then we'd be in the Customs Union but not in the Fiscal Union.
Of course the EU countries want no trade barriers, that's why the Single Market was created. We have said we want to leave the Single Market. The cost of that is the reintroduction of Customs borders and bureaucracy, and that is final I'm afraid.
Oh, and I wouldn't say that I'm angry, but continually banging my head against a brick wall trying to explain all this to people who just want to stick their fingers in their ears and go 'la-la-la-la it's not going to happen' does tend to make me a tad irritable.
Fair play and I accept all you points and (gracefully) bow to your prowess and knowledge in this area. I just believe that there may be another solution somehow - after all what was there before the Norway solution.....?
If Donald Trump can make it to the White House, all things are possible....... IMO
For the record I actually voted to remain, having lived for periods in Germany, The Netherlands and Denmark myself over the last 25 years...
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The EU have already said we can not have the same trade deal outside the EU as we have now as a member. Quite logically as it gives free reign for everone else to leave too - which is the last thing they want. The question is how far are we going to go to agree a deal - Hard or Soft Brexit?
You may remember shortly after becoming PM Teresa May went to India to attempt to agree a deal with Modi. This foundered because what India wanted was greater freedom for Indians to study and work in the UK. So to get that started again we would have to agree to his terms. Effectively swapping EU immigration for Indian immigration - I wonder if people knew that was what they may be voting for?
Difficult things these international deals - you have to give something to the other country that they might want...
Although as I stated both of the countries that originally mentioned (China and India) have indicated a willingness to talk and both suggested that an agreement could be reached in good time. This would be to the benefit of both and a damn sight easier to complete when the negotiating is between only two parties, rather than 29.
Agreed that anything is possible, but wouldn't you think that we would be in a stronger negotiating position with a market of 500 million behind us rather than 60 million. Which would be more attractive to India & China?
What can we offer them - and what would they demand from us? The freedom to dump cheap steel? Unrestricted movement of people.
It may be easier to negotiate - but that doesn't necessarily translate to better or a good deal, we shall just have to wait and see - like errr customs duties...
I see your point, but the opportunity to deal with one nation as opposed to 28 is also more desirable.
It will depend on what is on the table, what we are prepared to offer and perhaps concede..... only time will tell us...
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What nobody has mentioned is.......The goods (trade) that we sell to European Countries, sounds from many on here that we are paupers who cannot fend for themselves and will forever be on our knees begging forgiveness. I wait............................
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Just something for your perusal Glyn
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/02/theresa-may-faces-fresh-legal-challenge-brexit-david-davis-refuses/
la la la la la la la :)
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Just something for your perusal Glyn
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/02/theresa-may-faces-fresh-legal-challenge-brexit-david-davis-refuses/
la la la la la la la :)
Backs up what I've said - Davis confirmed that the White Paper intends to leave the Customs Union, so Customs Declarations will be back. Just as I said - or do you think it says something else?
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Oh Glyn la la la la la la la la la end of :)
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Yup. My major beef about all of this is that for almost every complaint a Leave voter has about the EU, the actual blame or responsibility for the problem (as they see it) lies with our Government(s). Almost every single time.
Which makes me all the more afraid of what lies in store for the future.
That is why I am so mightily pissed of with the way the Media have manipulated our poorer members of society with a tissue of lies and they will pay for it the most.
The politicians on the Remain side nevery allowed for the stupidity and rank xenophobia that many of our people have.
We are indeed still little Englanders shamefully and sadly ....
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I just hope the Brexit will not have immediate consequences for me on finding a job there in the next few months.
I hope so too mate.
Yes so do I and just remember,for all the sanctimonious pro EU t**ts posting on here from their high horse only one on here offered you a place to stay(to my knowledge anyway)
Surely it'd be the job of a Brexiteer to do that given the situation is now of their making...how many have done so - is it more than one?
Get over it Glyn, a democratic vote was taken, a decision was made we ll live with it, good or bad, just like America, they got Trump and many are bleating about it, what do people want? Some kind of dictatorship?
No answer then, I take it. Was the decision I have to 'get over' made by people who genuinely believe the EU dictate to businesses who they can trade with?
PS. It feels to me that continually being told to 'get over it' a form of dictatorship in itself. Especially when it's a means of evading giving an answer to a pertinent question..!
" Get over it " - I don't feel the need to get over it either just a certain sadness that my 18 year old won't have quite the freedoms and will live in a farow more uncertain world than me.
" Get over it " I feel that we've gone " all in " in a poker game without having a clue how much is in the pot and that it's just our money in it . Too many smug people about who will unfortunately suffer medium to long term - I don't get any joy over that but fear a major backlash when folk realise that the problem lies with the spineless representatives of the people and not the EU !
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Thats the problem hoola, you in two posts have labelled people poor, stupid and smug for having an opinion, just like many other remain voters. I voted out and can assure you I'm niether of those generalisations
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Since when has 'get over it' been an opinion Filo?
Stating that Britain will be better out of the EU is an opinion - and giving some facts to back this up makes it a valid and debatable one - but 'get over it', I'm with Hoola on this one.
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Not all Brexiters are racists,stupid or xenophobic.
In our time in the EU we have seen the demise of our fishing industry. The mining,steel and engineering industries have gone. We no longer have a British car industry just plants producing foreign models.
BT and the GPO privatised along with the power and water industries and again foreign ownership. We have seen reductions in the numbers of police, firemen and the armed forces. There are a lot of people amongst those that have seen their future and pensions destroyed. Maybe some felt that their only chance to be heard was to show their frustration by voting out. There were many very well educated people also advocating leaving.
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Since when has 'get over it' been an opinion Filo?
Stating that Britain will be better out of the EU is an opinion - and giving some facts to back this up makes it a valid and debatable one - but 'get over it', I'm with Hoola on this one.
You're not daft Wilts, you know that you've used that phrase out of context, but for clarity, having an opinion in the way I used it means voting against the person offering the insults. I for one voted to leave but fully expected the remain to win, but one thing is for sure, if remain had won I would n't have been bleating every 5 minutes, I'd have accepted it and moved on without stamping my feat and insulting people that voted the opposite way
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We have people on here falling out and getting hot under the collar, we had our vote some one way and some the other.. It does not matter one little bit what anyone on here says because the politicians are dealing, yesterday a court stopped a further challenge, because everybody has had enough.. The tabloids and respective reporters with their own view are stirring it just to sell newspapers . I know this thread is Off Topic but believe me it is similar to every other part of the Country - The Scots have been finally told. "No second Independence Referendum for you" I agree it has got nasty but it does not matter what anybody says. The lies were told, the fabrications were told the reasons were made for the case by both leave and remain... It really is not worth getting upset. I have had my fall outs on this site with people, but there is always someone worse off than the people of the U.K. who squabble over a vote.. We go out it causes argument and we stay in and it causes argument..Here is one for you.. " is it worth it"
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Not all Brexiters are racists,stupid or xenophobic.
In our time in the EU we have seen the demise of our fishing industry. The mining,steel and engineering industries have gone. We no longer have a British car industry just plants producing foreign models.
BT and the GPO privatised along with the power and water industries and again foreign ownership. We have seen reductions in the numbers of police, firemen and the armed forces. There are a lot of people amongst those that have seen their future and pensions destroyed. Maybe some felt that their only chance to be heard was to show their frustration by voting out. There were many very well educated people also advocating leaving.
Just about all of those retrograde steps you have listed there Idler were entirely the doing of UK governments, nothing to do with the EU. Which probably explains why those who wanted to remain are so pissed off at the total nonsense spoken about regaining British sovereignty.
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Absolutely that. In spades. "We" have voted to make the poor poorer and the rich richer. And I tire of hearing people blame the EU for things that our Government(s) are to blame for. I don't want to get into name calling, but the amount of ignorant, stupid, and just plain daft claims from some Leave voters is incredibly frustrating. We had that dopey banana bint on BBCQT this week, and a friend of mine told me this week that he voted Leave because he thought Remain would win, but he was hoping the EU would change its way, and even if Leave won the EU would come back to us with a new offer and we'd stay.... The mind boggles. I am sure all you Leave voters on here totally understood all the implications of leaving the EU and voted in good conscience, etc. But I can tell you that 95% of all my conversations with Leave voters have left me worried about the state of this country and how stupid and/or manipulated by fake news people are.
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One of my friends said he was voting leave because of sovereignty. When I see him again I'll ask why the white paper says we've had full sovereignty when in the EU. Another 'misleading' piece of information from the leave side.
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Not all Brexiters are racists,stupid or xenophobic.
In our time in the EU we have seen the demise of our fishing industry. The mining,steel and engineering industries have gone. We no longer have a British car industry just plants producing foreign models.
BT and the GPO privatised along with the power and water industries and again foreign ownership. We have seen reductions in the numbers of police, firemen and the armed forces. There are a lot of people amongst those that have seen their future and pensions destroyed. Maybe some felt that their only chance to be heard was to show their frustration by voting out. There were many very well educated people also advocating leaving.
Just about all of those retrograde steps you have listed there Idler were entirely the doing of UK governments, nothing to do with the EU. Which probably explains why those who wanted to remain are so pissed off at the total nonsense spoken about regaining British sovereignty.
I never said that the EU were responsible, just that all of these things happened whilst we were members of it.
Being part of a big club didn't save our jobs, would it in the future?
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Not everyone thinks the EU is blameless......
https://tinyurl.com/jet98sc
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Idler, not that I am suggesting that you were blaming the EU for those things. However, A LOT of people did. I saw the utterly ridiculous list of things that the EU was supposed to be responsible for that did the rounds before the vote - and it was utterly riddled with lies. I know, because I actually bothered to check it and go through them.
Sadly, a lot of people are more than happy to take things at face value.
BB - Redwood as a source of accurate info without any spin. Do me a favour.
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Lipsy, how are you qualified to say that everything you believe is true, and everything you don't believe is lies?
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Lipsy a lot of people did suffer during our period of membership. They might feel that being in the EU did nothing to save many of our industries.
The amount of responsibility shared by MPs and MEPs Might be debatable
but a smirking Dave and George threatening people didn't help.
I expected a remain outcome but feel both campaigning sides were next to useless. Maybe a 60/40 requirement might have had more backing but at the end of the day Cameron got the vote that he wanted and promptly ran away. Whichever side of the fence you are on we were badly let down.
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Lipsy, how are you qualified to say that everything you believe is true, and everything you don't believe is lies?
All I was saying is that it is perfectly possible to fact check. To go to the source of the facts rather than, say, read Redwood's biased b*llocks.*
*Other b*llocks media is available - from all sides of the argument.
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So where do you get the true facts from?
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Interesting about our industries, especially steel with the dumping of cheap Chinese steel with Tory MEPs voting against stopping it againgst EU wishes. We need to look at government policies before blaming the EU.
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Yup, that's one of the things that we did with steel... But certain corners would have you believe we should be blaming the EU when the truth is a little murkier than that. Similar thing with fishing, in fact. Not that I am - for a single second - saying that the EU is perfect. Far from it, in fact.
BB - lots of things are recorded and can be found online. The money we send to the EU, for example. It's just a matter of bothering to track it down for yourself... I tend to treat most things with an amount of scepticism - regardless of source. The sad fact is that most news outlets are almost completely unreliable because they have an agenda. This whole fake news thing that we're bleating on about regarding the US is hilarious - we've been gripped by the same thing for many, many years. I don't believe necessarily that I know THE TRUTH, but I do at least bother to check and re-check and question what I see and read.
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I never told you to shut up, I suggested that you should live with it. If you're content to come across as someone stamping his feet in a tantrum because you've not got your own way then that is entirely your prerogative.
Why should we " live with it " BB tell me why ? Had the result gone the other way , you would have had the same right wing fascists pushing the Tory Party another Referendum STILL . Fact is lies were told, exaggerations made and little or no spade work done to then rush into all of this was utter madness .
MPS told to vote for it completely against their political instincts and consciences simply because they had 'agreed' to have a Referendum in the first place was pure folly . Why have MPs let's all vote on Facebook or other Social Media ?
Sorry like Glyn and those that might have lost this argument from the other side had things been different; we are ALL entitled to our opinions . The LEAVE campaign had been fighting this argument for over 40 years but we were supposed to give up within months ! Yes they went for a 2nd Referendum too !
Yes admittedly it was the biggest vote for anything ever but there was also the greatest vote AGAINST anything ever based on one binary choice. Sounds ridiculous now given the complexity of all the European organisations we are a member of.
In our opinions as labelled " Remoaners " ( see what you did there right from the start ? ) , the Referendum was foolhardy, simplistic and the result was brought about by blatant lies and driven through as fast as possible before the inevitable backlashes start to occur . Promises about the economy are yet to be seen and the costs of withdrawing to the poorest in our society are yet to be felt . Once we have paid the divorce bill we can seek out trading partners who can continue the rape and pillaging of our best industries and brands benefitting from a weak £
Rant over for now but just as a matter of interest check your P60s and see how little in real terms it cost to stay in this trading club.
Arr lass , who earned a little over £ 20,000 last year donated the princely sum of £ 32 last year as her gross cost of being in the EU .....Check out the costs lads as they are winging their way through your post boxes anytime now.
Yes 61pence a week !!
All that for all those increased costs of travel/ insurance, health cover in the EU , price of household goods , guaranteed modern working practises, guarantees on food labelling/ Quality etc etc. and many many more benefits . Yes the EU Development spend in the DMBC was in excess of £ 180 million - do you expect that money to ever come our way now ?
That's what we are about to trade away in exchange for NOTHING except putting your trust in the Far Right Tory grandees running the show now .Even those in the Tory party are manipulated by them and our area voted for this !!
Yes I'm bitter with a youngster at University who like many others will find many opportunities now closed to her and her age group . She being 18 in the August was denied a vote which possibly will impact on the rest of her career . Unlike the Scottish Referendum it was thought that English, Welsh and Irish kids had no right to voice their opinions on what would be their futures
At least we will have the extra £ 350 million per week to spend on our under- funded NHS eh lads oh and a rip- roaring trade deal with 'the' Donald and other wonderful states to look forward to.
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So what do you suggest we do then Hoola?
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Not everyone thinks the EU is blameless......
https://tinyurl.com/jet98sc
Oh you refer to John Redwood , the biggest t**t of them all feck me .
All that blog says is that we failed to look after our own industries whilst others in the EU Managed to look after theirs . Perversely BB you illustrate the point that we failed as a country to protect and invest , use our oil revenues properly whilst other EU countries principally the Germans managed to take advantage of the benefits of membership
We squandered our chance to invest in the future and are simply miles behind our other ex Northern European partners . Why is that the fault of the EU and not successive Governments.
Next you will be telling me you read the rubbish in the Daily Mail / Express ?
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Hoola.
I voted to remain also. I was in the minority. I lost the vote.
Now as far as I'm concerned the way forward is to accept the majority vote. It's the only way forward. That process includes looking closer at the views of the brexiters, and moving forward with them.
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So what do you suggest we do then Hoola?
Too late friend , the game is lost and we head for a generation of Tory rule now that we have done the political equivalent of self harming.
I don't know what we can do , this I'm afraid is over to you and your lying toe rag of a mate John Redwood to sort out.
Please don't wish for a collapse of the EU though as that will only bring about more economic misery - many are to justify their actions and out of some sort of malice.
I will be long dead before we recover from this shite , btw did you check your tax return ?
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Hoola.
I voted to remain also. I was in the minority. I lost the vote.
Now as far as I'm concerned the way forward is to accept the majority vote. It's the only way forward. That process includes looking closer at the views of the brexiters, and moving forward with them.
Sorry friend I do accept it , unhappy with the way it was brought about and the reasons for the Referendum in the first place but I have no other choice but to accept it however our MPs should not have accepted it so easily knowing all the pitfalls - we want to disassociate ourselves from anything that starts with "Eur" and seem to think that the European Court of Justice is something obscene. How has it directly or indirectly affected our lives ffs ?
Anyway all the answers remain hidden , no amendments at all went through the HoC......do you not wonder why ? No official government risk assessments will be made available in other words this Tory government holding a slim majority looks as though they can do as they please.
If anything goes wrong it will be blamed on the EU or the " will of the people " Talk about a blank cheque book at a time when we have major problems in the NHS , Education, Prisons, Housing, Defence, Railways need I go on .....
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Talking about malice, let's also hope that remain voters aren't hoping for economic misery by wishing an anti-Trump protest might deter his future investment in the UK, just to justify their remain vote as being the correct one.
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Bentley I have a vested interest in hoping that it goes right because , like it or not, all Remainers and their children want the best for this country. Failure is not an option , things might be more difficult but no-one would take any joy in seeing detrimental effects on either the UK or the EU . I see posts hoping or predicting the demise of the EU but I must admit I don't understand the rationale behind them . It only makes negotiations with our friends and neighbours much more difficult
On the basis that it was the younger people of this country that voted Remain , it is to be hoped that they are capable of digging themselves out of the hole they have been buried in .
They have no other choice for at least a generation by which time many of the Leavers will be long dead.
Who knows how the world will have changed in that time
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Hoola
We all have a vested interest in hoping that it goes right, that is what we should all be focusing on.
you say " all Remainers and their children want the best for this country". Don't you think all brexiters do also?
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Absolutely that. In spades. "We" have voted to make the poor poorer and the rich richer. And I tire of hearing people blame the EU for things that our Government(s) are to blame for. I don't want to get into name calling, but the amount of ignorant, stupid, and just plain daft claims from some Leave voters is incredibly frustrating. We had that dopey banana bint on BBCQT this week, and a friend of mine told me this week that he voted Leave because he thought Remain would win, but he was hoping the EU would change its way, and even if Leave won the EU would come back to us with a new offer and we'd stay.... The mind boggles. I am sure all you Leave voters on here totally understood all the implications of leaving the EU and voted in good conscience, etc. But I can tell you that 95% of all my conversations with Leave voters have left me worried about the state of this country and how stupid and/or manipulated by fake news people are.
No one understood the implications of leaving, so folks voting to remain or to leave may have voted according to their consciences and that's fair enough. But without a government defined and agreed exit strategy "just in case" in place and publicised before the vote, who the hell could possibly know what Brexit would mean?
Remain would have meant at the very least maintaining the status quo, then campaining for reforms within the EU, if required.
Before anyone tells me to get on with it, to accept it etc of course I accept the result but hell yes I disagree with it! But that is for the reason I outline, how could we be expected to vote properly for an outcome that wasn't defined??
For sure, if the brexit strategy had been known in advance, then the result may have even seen a larger leave majority, but a result based upon honesty and a defined exit strategy would be much more understandable and acceptable.
My argument applies to both side of the fence - what Brexit was going to mean should have been defined.
Who on here - from either side of the fence - can tell me what the fate of my German relatives living in the UK will be after Brexit??
No-one?? No, didn't think so - and neither can the government, unless I have missed it..
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IDM - I only said that so as to not get into the whole "I knew full well what I was voting for" argument with anyone. I also don't have the wherewithal to go over too many of the arguments I have had with people about all of this, nor did I want to insult anyone on here. What I will say is this: I voted to remain and I am STILL learning about the EU and how enmeshed we are with Europe and EU rules, etc. The more I read and learn, the more afraid I am about our future...
Still, people got "their" country's sovereignty back, which is nice. Oh wait...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C3sfi-oWEAEO9UV.jpg)
Anyway, I hear you. As far as I am concerned, the Tories pulled off their coup and can now set about destroying many of the things we cherish about this country. Mark my words, the poor will get poorer and their mates will get fat. And if you don't like it, they can turn around (as they are doing now) and say that they are merely adhering to the will of the people. So if you voted to leave then don't go moaning about what the Tories are doing...
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I picked your line to quote as it highlighted a point that is one of my serious concerns - no one knew what they were voting for.
If the brexit strategy had guaranteed residency for EU citizens already here (legitimately) then I may well have been tempted to vote leave, if the other arguments had been convincing.
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I picked your line to quote as it highlighted a point that is one of my serious concerns - no one knew what they were voting for.
If the brexit strategy had guaranteed residency for EU citizens already here (legitimately) then I may well have been tempted to vote leave, if the other arguments had been convincing.
Apparently they all knew what they were voting for and it seems were far better informed than both the experts and of course our MPs. Like you I don't believe that anymore than you do - so many imponderables, so many organisations to extract ourselves from and too many organisations to set up once again in our own right . Then we can truly regain Sovereignty oh and we have got to sort some trade deals out . On the basis that we currently have few natural resources, at best a shite manufacturing export base and the wherewithal to even negotiate trade deals we are basically fecked.
Unless we can secure our financial place in the world we lack muscle of any sort. Still we have our sovereignty ;) , we no longer will be a member of any serious European joint enterprise beit Euratom, Erasmus, The Space station and you have to wonder what will happen to the Eurofighter etc ?
Almost forgot we have ''soft'' power and a nuclear deterrent .
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I hear you, hoolahoop, I really do.
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I hear you, hoolahoop, I really do.
Thanks Lipsy , do you feel my pain :) it seems some on here love the idea of charging out into the world and shouting " we' re here , we're back " and then wonder why everyone walks around with their fingers in their ears singing lalalalala ad infinitum now and again stopping to whisper under their breath " hmm see they are back again the Empire - certainly not turning round and dropping our trolleys for them again ! "
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Where is BST i would love to hear his take on all this
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I picked your line to quote as it highlighted a point that is one of my serious concerns - no one knew what they were voting for.
If the brexit strategy had guaranteed residency for EU citizens already here (legitimately) then I may well have been tempted to vote leave, if the other arguments had been convincing.
Apparently they all knew what they were voting for and it seems were far better informed than both the experts and of course our MPs. Like you I don't believe that anymore than you do - so many imponderables, so many organisations to extract ourselves from and too many organisations to set up once again in our own right . Then we can truly regain Sovereignty oh and we have got to sort some trade deals out . On the basis that we currently have few natural resources, at best a shite manufacturing export base and the wherewithal to even negotiate trade deals we are basically fecked.
Unless we can secure our financial place in the world we lack muscle of any sort. Still we have our sovereignty ;) , we no longer will be a member of any serious European joint enterprise beit Euratom, Erasmus, The Space station and you have to wonder what will happen to the Eurofighter etc ?
Almost forgot we have ''soft'' power and a nuclear deterrent .
The experts told us after the brexit vote FTSE would crash, investments would go down and basically the world would end, yet here we are, not a year has gone by since the referendum and FTSE has flourished, and speaking from a personal level my investments have performed better since the referendum than in the previous 3 years! It's a good job I did n't listen to the experts and withdrew my money eh?
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But you are paying a lot more for petrol/diesel since the £ dropped dramatically against the $ after the referendum?
Loads of factors effect investments, but that is not my concern.
Are my relatives going to be deported, or not?????
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Petrol is the same price as it was in September 2015.
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But you are paying a lot more for petrol/diesel since the £ dropped dramatically against the $ after the referendum?
Loads of factors effect investments, but that is not my concern.
Are my relatives going to be deported, or not?????
The sensible thing IDM would be to allow all EU nationals currently working/legally living here to stay. UK nationals having the same right to stay and or work in the EU.
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Filo - I wouldn't be too quick to jump on the anti-intellectualism bandwagon. 1. Article 50 hasn't been triggered yet, so we have yet to see the true impact of that (and those predictions were based on the presumption Cameron would trigger it immediately). 2. The "my investments are doing great" argument kind of supports my "the rich will get richer" argument, don't you think? I am not saying you're rich, but those with investments have benefitted - and they probably will continue to do so. 3. As has already been mentioned, costs have risen and more are promised. 4. With benefits frozen, inflation on the up and more besides, do you really think everything's rosy? Or are you very much in this "I'm alright, Jack" camp?
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But you are paying a lot more for petrol/diesel since the £ dropped dramatically against the $ after the referendum?
Loads of factors effect investments, but that is not my concern.
Are my relatives going to be deported, or not?????
The sensible thing IDM would be to allow all EU nationals currently working/legally living here to stay. UK nationals having the same right to stay and or work in the EU.
You would hope so, that's one of the commitments I had hoped to see before the vote..
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Unfortunately common sense has been sadly lacking over the last few years.
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Filo - I wouldn't be too quick to jump on the anti-intellectualism bandwagon. 1. Article 50 hasn't been triggered yet, so we have yet to see the true impact of that (and those predictions were based on the presumption Cameron would trigger it immediately). 2. The "my investments are doing great" argument kind of supports my "the rich will get richer" argument, don't you think? I am not saying you're rich, but those with investments have benefitted - and they probably will continue to do so. 3. As has already been mentioned, costs have risen and more are promised. 4. With benefits frozen, inflation on the up and more besides, do you really think everything's rosy? Or are you very much in this "I'm alright, Jack" camp?
No I'm not in the I'm alright camp, I don't know what will happen, just like the experts on both sides, but you've hit the nail on the head regarding presumtions, are n't all the forcasts just that, presumtions?
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Filo - I wouldn't be too quick to jump on the anti-intellectualism bandwagon. 1. Article 50 hasn't been triggered yet, so we have yet to see the true impact of that (and those predictions were based on the presumption Cameron would trigger it immediately). 2. The "my investments are doing great" argument kind of supports my "the rich will get richer" argument, don't you think? I am not saying you're rich, but those with investments have benefitted - and they probably will continue to do so. 3. As has already been mentioned, costs have risen and more are promised. 4. With benefits frozen, inflation on the up and more besides, do you really think everything's rosy? Or are you very much in this "I'm alright, Jack" camp?
No I'm not in the I'm alright camp, I don't know what will happen, just like the experts on both sides, but you've hit the nail on the head regarding presumtions, are n't all the forcasts just that, presumtions?
Exactly
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Apart from - as I have already said in this thread - Customs barriers and bureaucracy being reintroduced for all movements to and from the EU if we leave the Single Market. That's not a presumption, that's a fact.
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Being one of the mere mortals who also doesn't know what will happen, has this presumption got any credibility? ...........
https://tinyurl.com/j4yrsjl
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well its what nigel farage was arguing so if you think he is credible...
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Being one of the mere mortals who also doesn't know what will happen, has this presumption got any credibility? ...........
https://tinyurl.com/j4yrsjl
Yes. The UK currently only has Free Movement (no Customs Barriers and bureaucracy) within the Single Market with other members of the Single Market. When we leave the Single Market we give up Free Movement.
A Customs Union (should we still have some form of one with the EU after we leave it) does not embrace Free Movement. It only embraces some form of Free Trade - which is not the same thing as Free Movement. Customs barriers will be re-introduced as even when there is no Customs Duty, declarations will still have to be made to prove entitlement to Duty-free movement.
Just to give an illustration - the UK doesn't even have Free Movement with the Isle Of Man or the Channel Islands. If you move goods from the UK to or from either of these territories you have to make a C88 Customs Declaration and undergo Customs clearance procedures, including any physical examination of the consignment that Customs wants to make. That situation is what we revert to with the EU once we leave the Single Market; the exact same rules, regulations and paperwork as when we trade with the whole of rest of the world.
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Filo - I wouldn't be too quick to jump on the anti-intellectualism bandwagon. 1. Article 50 hasn't been triggered yet, so we have yet to see the true impact of that (and those predictions were based on the presumption Cameron would trigger it immediately). 2. The "my investments are doing great" argument kind of supports my "the rich will get richer" argument, don't you think? I am not saying you're rich, but those with investments have benefitted - and they probably will continue to do so. 3. As has already been mentioned, costs have risen and more are promised. 4. With benefits frozen, inflation on the up and more besides, do you really think everything's rosy? Or are you very much in this "I'm alright, Jack" camp?
No I'm not in the I'm alright camp, I don't know what will happen, just like the experts on both sides, but you've hit the nail on the head regarding presumtions, are n't all the forcasts just that, presumtions?
Unfortunately, there's already been plenty of bad things that have happened that point to a not entirely bright future. Maybe people have forgotten the 60+ billions of pounds' worth of quantitive easing we pumped into the economy to try to stabilise it after the vote (countless more being chucked in afterwards, but I've lost track of it all). Maybe folks aren't worried about the *additional* £122b the Govt. says it needs to borrow through to 2020 (or £244m extra per week I seem to remember Hammond saying), announced in the Autumn Statement/budget - all confirmed by our Govt. as being in response to the vote. We can speculate all we like, sure, but that's an economic headache in the making, no?
Maybe people haven't noticed that their shopping has got more expensive or that products they're buying have got smaller. I know I have... Jesus, I bought a tub of ice cream earlier and it had magically dropped in size from 2ltrs to 1.8 - and it's happening a lot: coffee, chocolate, etc etc. Smart arses will argue that it's greedy buggers taking the p. It matters not because my/our money ain't buying as much as it used to. Same with lots and lots of other things (phones, computers, software, goods - the lot) - all increasing in cost. But I'm sure that we're all happy to be paying more for less, no?
And this is all before Article 50 is triggered and before we leave the EU. I believe Private Eye said something along the lines of the shit hasn't hit the fan because we haven't turned it on yet. Regardless of the way you voted (and, no, I am not someone wanting another vote or anything daft like that), we should all be united in our concern for what lies ahead. Or we could just hope that it'll magically work itself out...
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It reminds me of decimalisation in 1971.
We were well shafted then.
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Filo - I wouldn't be too quick to jump on the anti-intellectualism bandwagon. 1. Article 50 hasn't been triggered yet, so we have yet to see the true impact of that (and those predictions were based on the presumption Cameron would trigger it immediately). 2. The "my investments are doing great" argument kind of supports my "the rich will get richer" argument, don't you think? I am not saying you're rich, but those with investments have benefitted - and they probably will continue to do so. 3. As has already been mentioned, costs have risen and more are promised. 4. With benefits frozen, inflation on the up and more besides, do you really think everything's rosy? Or are you very much in this "I'm alright, Jack" camp?
No I'm not in the I'm alright camp, I don't know what will happen, just like the experts on both sides, but you've hit the nail on the head regarding presumtions, are n't all the forcasts just that, presumtions?
Unfortunately, there's already been plenty of bad things that have happened that point to a not entirely bright future. Maybe people have forgotten the 60+ billions of pounds' worth of quantitive easing we pumped into the economy to try to stabilise it after the vote (countless more being chucked in afterwards, but I've lost track of it all). Maybe folks aren't worried about the *additional* £122b the Govt. says it needs to borrow through to 2020 (or £244m extra per week I seem to remember Hammond saying), announced in the Autumn Statement/budget - all confirmed by our Govt. as being in response to the vote. We can speculate all we like, sure, but that's an economic headache in the making, no?
Maybe people haven't noticed that their shopping has got more expensive or that products they're buying have got smaller. I know I have... Jesus, I bought a tub of ice cream earlier and it had magically dropped in size from 2ltrs to 1.8 - and it's happening a lot: coffee, chocolate, etc etc. Smart arses will argue that it's greedy buggers taking the p. It matters not because my/our money ain't buying as much as it used to. Same with lots and lots of other things (phones, computers, software, goods - the lot) - all increasing in cost. But I'm sure that we're all happy to be paying more for less, no?
And this is all before Article 50 is triggered and before we leave the EU. I believe Private Eye said something along the lines of the shit hasn't hit the fan because we haven't turned it on yet. Regardless of the way you voted (and, no, I am not someone wanting another vote or anything daft like that), we should all be united in our concern for what lies ahead. Or we could just hope that it'll magically work itself out...
Thats been happening for quite a few years well prior to anything to do with Brexit
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"Jesus, I bought a tub of ice cream earlier and it had magically dropped in size from 2ltrs to 1.8"
That 10% reduction was made in 2008!
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Quality - we side-step the billions of quantitative easing and billions of additional borrowing that are the result of the Brexit vote to point out that I made a boo-boo about ice cream. Okay, I got that wrong... I always thought it was 2ltrs, the robbing bas**rds. I did joke to my Leave-voting Bro-in-law that it was Brexit that had shrunk my chuffing ice cream (but I blame Brexit on just about everything - especially things that aren't and couldn't possibly be to do with the vote).
We all know that some things have got more expensive, smaller, or are going to get more expensive because of the vote - it's been well documented everywhere. And there's more to come - whether it's actually because of the vote/sterling or companies taking advantage of the situation. The main point of what I was trying to say is that we're storing up problems that are going to bite us on the arse - and that's before we create yet more uncertainty. The poor will get poorer and the rich will get richer, and it'll take something seismic to change that. Saying "I'm alright" or "Things got more expensive before the vote" is just bloody-mindedness.
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Prices also go up because of inflation - in general prices have been going up across the board since the last period of deflation in the 1920-30's........ just saying like
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Prices also go up because of inflation - in general prices have been going up across the board since the last period of deflation in the 1920-30's........ just saying like
And what is the cause of that inflation..? Why has diesel gone up in price by about 20% in six months when the inflation rate is about 1%pa?
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Prices also go up because of inflation - in general prices have been going up across the board since the last period of deflation in the 1920-30's........ just saying like
And what is the cause of that inflation..? Why has diesel gone up in price by about 20% in six months when the inflation rate is about 1%pa?
Diesels back at the same price as it was in 2015 as was pointed out previously and is largely dependent on our Arab friends
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Prices also go up because of inflation - in general prices have been going up across the board since the last period of deflation in the 1920-30's........ just saying like
And what is the cause of that inflation..? Why has diesel gone up in price by about 20% in six months when the inflation rate is about 1%pa?
Diesels back at the same price as it was in 2015 as was pointed out previously and is largely dependent on our Arab friends
Our Arab friends deal in US$. That's why the price has gone up for us...but nobody else.