Viking Supporters Co-operative

Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: Donnyjim on September 12, 2018, 10:33:19 pm

Title: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: Donnyjim on September 12, 2018, 10:33:19 pm
Get 3000 plus more home fans than us? I know they've just come down but the town is smaller than ours and hasn't even got its own post code.  I guess they just have a bigger fan base historically?
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: pib on September 12, 2018, 10:39:47 pm
Probably historical. They've been a Tier 2 side for most of their history and we've been a Tier 3 or 4 side for most of ours. I guess that helps to attract fans through the generations and not as many gravitate to Blades/Owls/Leeds etc.

I'm sure Jim Dobbin will know though.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: Donnyjim on September 12, 2018, 11:25:37 pm
I'm just wondering if they do a head count in the stands at Oakwell? There may be 11k heads visible but are there as many bodies? 😆😆😆🤔
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: Draytonian III on September 12, 2018, 11:41:09 pm
It could also be down to them counting using their fingers and toes ......
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: DonnyBazR0ver on September 13, 2018, 12:47:55 am
I think Barnsley as a town is more together in terms of identity and history, compared to Donny which is perhaps more cosmopolitan. We may have a large metropolitan area but that doesn't count for much in terms of core support. Don't get me wrong all towns have more diverse populations and Barnsley also have their fare share of Leeds and Owls fans. Yes, they have been more successful so perhaps cling to a core support slightly better than we do.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: DINGLE on September 13, 2018, 06:28:49 am
In early to mid nineties, Barnsley was same as Doncaster and Rotherham in having thousands of so called Wensdeh and Leeds fans, they weren’t actually supporters of them clubs but when asked they’d say I’m a Leeds/wensdeh fan, despite not being able to pick out their grounds on a map.

When we got promoted to the premiership that shower of shyte saw it as a opportunity to go and watch the best clubs in England on their doorstep for £300 with a season ticket, being surrounded by genuine reds fans they slowly realised what it was to be a active football supporter and they got the bug, and kept renewing year after year, before that our crowds were worse than what yours are now.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: djoftherovers1 on September 14, 2018, 09:42:18 am
Look back over last few generations and Doncaster has a huge split of Leeds fans and then the 2 Sheffield clubs have took a percentage too, in Barnsley you don't get that as much they all grow up supporting the local team.. hopefully going forward we are getting the same kinda fans
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: The Red Baron on September 14, 2018, 10:13:50 am
If you go back to the 70s, when a large number of Donny-based fans went over to the dark side (ie Leeds) there wasn't much to choose between Rovers and Barnsley. Both were in Division Four for most of the decade.

I think Dingle is right. The season they had in the Premier League made a huge difference to them in terms of support and it also came at the same time that Rovers' fortunes were at a very low ebb.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: DevilMayCry on September 14, 2018, 11:04:52 am
From wikipedia "Barnsley have spent more seasons at the second level of English football than any other team and on 3 January 2011 became the first club to achieve 1,000 wins in the second level of English football with a 2–1 home victory over Coventry City. Barnsley are also the first club to play 3,000 games in second-level league football (W1028, D747, L1224)."
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on September 14, 2018, 11:55:13 am
It's pretty obvious really. They've had nearly two generations during which they've been on average a division and a half higher than us.

Rotherham had a similar spell from 1970 to the mid 2000s of being a division and a half ahead of us and similarly their crowds were bigger than ours, all things being equal. But for most of the past half generation, we've been above them, and the gap in crowds has pretty much vanished now. Last year, they only averaged a couple of undred more than us, despite them going up and us pottering about mid table.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: DonnyBazR0ver on September 14, 2018, 12:12:04 pm
Even in the fourth Div, late 70s when they had Mccarthy, Pickering, Millar, then Allan Clarke, they were pulling in a few more than us. Things picked up for them in the Ronnie Glavin, Ian Banks era whilst we were in the doldrums for the most part.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: Campsall rover on September 14, 2018, 01:25:59 pm
Not much else to do in Barnsley on a Saturday afternoon.
But seriously that season in the Premier league made a difference as their gates went up to 18,000 and consequently when they went down a level and then 2 levels they kept a healthy percentage.
If you look at our recent 4 year consecutive spell in the Championship there was at least 1 season from my recollection that Barnsley’s ave gate was only just over 1000 more than ours.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: Campsall rover on September 14, 2018, 01:28:01 pm
Did not state that of course I am referring to the season or seasons that Barnsley were in the Championship also.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: DonnyBazR0ver on September 14, 2018, 01:46:30 pm
Nothing would give me greater pleasure than seeing Barnsley and Rovers battle it out for automatic promotion this season.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: phil old leake on September 14, 2018, 01:54:32 pm
There’s too many Leeds supporters in the town. Historically in the 70’s Leeds attracted a fan base like man c and Man U   Kids just go with the flow band support the team their dad does. 
It’s just the way it is.
Used to piss me off when. I was a lad going into town before going to the game and seeing all the fans getting in buses outside waterdale.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: Branton Rover on September 14, 2018, 05:38:58 pm
It’s historic especially places like Skellow/Campsall etc the pull of Revie’s Leeds was massive in the 70’s and we were always 4th division - add to that the Richardson era gives a good indication why we haemorrhaged support to other local clubs - from the mid 80’s onwards and the whole of the 90’s we were crap while other clubs enjoyed Premier League & Champions League
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: Jim Dobbin on September 14, 2018, 08:05:57 pm
Probably historical. They've been a Tier 2 side for most of their history and we've been a Tier 3 or 4 side for most of ours. I guess that helps to attract fans through the generations and not as many gravitate to Blades/Owls/Leeds etc.

I'm sure Jim Dobbin will know though.

How do. History, thats it. The town loves the club and they have a great bond, even more so with the new owners and CEO. Off the field they are improving ten fold, have you seen their new family zone for example?
They don't mind the two seasons Rovers had a good run at them Rig, they were on their arses after administration. Well, so they tell me.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: Jim Dobbin on September 14, 2018, 08:15:33 pm
Did not state that of course I am referring to the season or seasons that Barnsley were in the Championship also.

Difficult to compare Rovers best season in 50 years, averaged 9,041 in the final season in Championship.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: Campsall rover on September 14, 2018, 08:16:00 pm
It’s historic especially places like Skellow/Campsall etc the pull of Revie’s Leeds was massive in the 70’s and we were always 4th division - add to that the Richardson era gives a good indication why we haemorrhaged support to other local clubs - from the mid 80’s onwards and the whole of the 90’s we were crap while other clubs enjoyed Premier League & Champions League
I think you can say 60’s and early 70’s with regard to support going to Leeds.
You say Skellow and Campsall but I am sure you are referring to the whole of the Northern side of Doncaster. Askern is still full of Leeds supporters. The present generation of 30/40 year olds parents supported them so it just follows down the generations.
I must be the exception to the rule as I am from Leeds and was brought up on them in the sixties.
Came to work at Adwick-le-Street Leisure centre in 1975. Started watching Rovers along side Leeds between 1975 & 1978.  Then Bremner becomes manager of Rovers in 1978 and I become a die hard Rovers fan.
Nobody can ever call me a glory hunter although Rovers have won more silverware than Leeds since 2003. Now there is a thought.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: Campsall rover on September 14, 2018, 08:21:43 pm
Did not state that of course I am referring to the season or seasons that Barnsley were in the Championship also.

Difficult to compare Rovers best season in 50 years, averaged 9,041 in the final season in Championship.
I think it was 9,400 in 2011/12 Relegatiion and the experiment.
2008/09 1st season we averaged 11,940
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: Jim Dobbin on September 14, 2018, 08:25:53 pm
Rovers
http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/league/donr.htm (http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/league/donr.htm)

Barnsley
http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/league/bars.htm  (http://european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/league/bars.htm)

In the last couple of years their crowds are improving compared to same level attendances. They averaged just under 10k last time at this level, already averaging nearly 12k having played two teams with small away followings.

Must be marketing.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: Haxey-Hood-DRFC on September 14, 2018, 09:14:06 pm
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Outside of the immediate town, the east and south side of Doncaster contribute massively to our overall fan base. Whilst Leeds, Sheffield clubs, and Premier League All Stars etc. have undoubtedly nicked a fair share of support during our dire years, North Lincs and North Notts have continued to provide loyal bands of support. Yet these are still the areas most neglected by the DRFC marketing team, leaving it wide open for the likes of Scunny, Lincoln and the Notts clubs to exploit the floaters. We may not be Yorkshire, but we're all Donny, aren't we?
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: andysly on September 15, 2018, 05:08:09 am
Noticed a Donny Owls flag at the England game the other night, just made me wonder how many football fans migrate from Donny on a Saturday to watch Leeds, Wednesday etc etc
Probably enough to turn our 7,500 crowd into 9,000 or more. Certainly remember dozens of Donny whites getting on the train at Doncaster for the away games at Elland Rd.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: Jim Dobbin on September 15, 2018, 07:37:56 am
Do Doncaster contribute massively to the Sheffield clubs? I don't think so just because there's a Donny Owls flag, its over 20 miles away from Sheffield and other than Rovers fans its populated by Donny Whites. Rotherham and Barnsley are 8-10 miles away from Sheffield, Hillsborough is that close to Oakwell the Blades call them South Barnsley.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: Herbert Anchovy on September 15, 2018, 08:11:15 am
It’s an odd one. Everywhere I’ve lived in Yorkshire has a large number of Leeds fans, not just Donny. It’s just that we seem to have more of a complex about it. I lived in Huddersfield for a time in the 80’s andvthst place was filled tonthe rafters with Leeds. Regarding Barnsley, I used to see quite a lot of Wednesday fans there, many more than in Donny.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: idler on September 15, 2018, 09:44:07 am
In my opinion the biggest mistake was in 1966. We didn't improve the team after going up as champions with fantastic gates at the end of the season.
John Nicholson getting killed, Alick out for two months after the crash and selling Laurie Sheffield to Norwich. All down to Hubert Bates.
A good stabilising season then rather than relegation and it could have set us up for years.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: IDM on September 15, 2018, 09:57:32 am
I don’t get the thing about more marketing..  if folks have a passing interest in football, then these days it is very easy to find out when we play, ticket prices etc..

What may require marketing action is where we have special offers, for individual games, season tickets, packages etc.. 
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: pib on September 15, 2018, 10:57:19 am
I don’t get the thing about more marketing..  if folks have a passing interest in football, then these days it is very easy to find out when we play, ticket prices etc..

What may require marketing action is where we have special offers, for individual games, season tickets, packages etc..

Marketing goes much beyond promoting matches. It’s about creating a feeling that people can be part of a special club and belong to something that will matter to them.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: IDM on September 15, 2018, 11:26:58 am
Maybe I have an old fashioned attitude, but doesn’t going to the match and being there serve that purpose.?

Does for me..
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: RoversAlias on September 15, 2018, 12:45:54 pm
Until you get them to the match though how do you show them that that's the case? Marketing and advertising plays a huge role in attracting fans, Rovers things should be all over town all the time then people feel like it's a key part of the town and it looks like something they should start being a part of.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: IDM on September 15, 2018, 01:09:19 pm
I have no objections to that per se, just talking from my own experiences..

When I have been away from the doncaster area,  and fancied taking in a game, I just looked at the newspaper, teletext and these days online to find a game..
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: RoversAlias on September 15, 2018, 01:22:00 pm
Aye but you're already "hooked" so to speak by that point. Potential new fans might not know the best ways to find out when matches are on, or ticket prices etc. Sadly as well, many people won't "go out of their way" to make the effort unless it's suggested to them or they are presented with marketing moves that make them take notice.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: DonnyBazR0ver on September 15, 2018, 01:41:45 pm
Indirect marketing doesn't work as it has very little impact. There are hundreds of fans out there who have gotten out of the habit for various reasons and it's from that market you are more likely to get some success. Most of these people have previously been regulars or occasionals who know how to get tickets, have used the ticket office or website before. I think we know what is likely to entice them back and that largely comes from what happens on the pitch. We need another taste of success and Championship football to make inroads into persuading people to break the non habit. We've seen the snowball effect in the past and there's no reason it couldn't happen again.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: Bentley Bullet on September 15, 2018, 01:53:13 pm
It is all about success on the pitch.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: IDM on September 15, 2018, 05:33:39 pm
Precisely BB..

There’s no stronger marketing for us than going away to a team unbeaten in the league and stuffing them 4-1.!

Long may it continue..
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: dknward2 on September 15, 2018, 05:40:52 pm
Can’t wait for us to come up against a poor team if we can score 4 against a undefeated side whose fans were expecting nothing but beating us by 2 or more goals
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: drfchound on September 15, 2018, 06:47:05 pm
Can’t wait for us to come up against a poor team if we can score 4 against a undefeated side whose fans were expecting nothing but beating us by 2 or more goals





It doesn't always work out that way though does it.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: Padge_DRFC on September 15, 2018, 07:44:50 pm
Barnsley took 1500 more to their away game today. Imagine the leger had some impact but that’s a massive difference for similar distances.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: pib on September 15, 2018, 08:05:22 pm
Maybe I have an old fashioned attitude, but doesn’t going to the match and being there serve that purpose.?

Does for me..

Everyone is different, and tbf you probably don’t represent the sort of fan who has a “passing interest in football” as you originally said.

As someone else said, it’s about getting people to the match first so they won’t get the feeling you describe from the match if they’re not attending.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: RedJ on September 15, 2018, 09:45:05 pm
Barnsley took 1500 more to their away game today. Imagine the leger had some impact but that’s a massive difference for similar distances.

Good for them.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: les@donr on September 16, 2018, 07:11:51 am
Barnsley took 1500 more to their away game today. Imagine the leger had some impact but that’s a massive difference for similar distances.

Good for them.

....and lost.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: RobTheRover on September 16, 2018, 07:47:34 am
Barnsley have half a dozen people and a dog behind the scenes.  This isnt about marketing.  Its as Dingle has stated.  That season in the PL has influenced exacty the kind of fans we lose to L**ds and Sheffield, and the ripples from that are still being felt.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: Jim Dobbin on September 16, 2018, 07:53:25 am
Barnsley have half a dozen people and a dog behind the scenes.  This isnt about marketing.  Its as Dingle has stated.  That season in the PL has influenced exacty the kind of fans we lose to L**ds and Sheffield, and the ripples from that are still being felt.

They had a billboard in Times Square, that dog must be doing well. The new owners are all about off the field at the moment.
 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-6106589/How-Gauthier-Ganaye-footballs-youngest-chief-executive-29-impressing-Barnsley.html  (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-6106589/How-Gauthier-Ganaye-footballs-youngest-chief-executive-29-impressing-Barnsley.html)

I think their recent surge in crowds is to do with their double Wembley wins, they've had an administration since their Prem days.

I honestly don't know what Rovers can do about their crowds, even after the recent success of Championship football they topped out at 12k.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: DonnyBazR0ver on September 16, 2018, 08:36:05 am
There's not a lot in that article that Rovers aren't doing anyway. The club does special things for ordinary fans to cement that bond. When good times come, like now, the clubs just got to be in the right place to keep hold of those returning fans and new fans alike. If the match experience off the field is good a enough to match that on it, then we will start averaging 10k crowds once more.

It's the next big step that is the difficult one!
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: silent majority on September 16, 2018, 10:39:58 am
Barnsley have half a dozen people and a dog behind the scenes.  This isnt about marketing.  Its as Dingle has stated.  That season in the PL has influenced exacty the kind of fans we lose to L**ds and Sheffield, and the ripples from that are still being felt.

They had a billboard in Times Square, that dog must be doing well. The new owners are all about off the field at the moment.
 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-6106589/How-Gauthier-Ganaye-footballs-youngest-chief-executive-29-impressing-Barnsley.html  (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-6106589/How-Gauthier-Ganaye-footballs-youngest-chief-executive-29-impressing-Barnsley.html)

I think their recent surge in crowds is to do with their double Wembley wins, they've had an administration since their Prem days.

I honestly don't know what Rovers can do about their crowds, even after the recent success of Championship football they topped out at 12k.

And if you read the article the CEO even mentions that the club has a 'small structure'. Which essentially means they have very few staff.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: Padge_DRFC on September 16, 2018, 10:52:15 am
Just face it we have the lowest number of fans in Yorkshire. Apart from Rotherham considerably lower. People already support Leeds. Their sons will to and so on so on. It’s then down to kids parents who didn’t have a football team to take them and gain an interest.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: Bezza on September 16, 2018, 10:54:15 am
i will stick to what we have at Donny, a rugby union team in the championship, a rugby league team, a top class racecourse, an airport and a wildlife park,as well as our football team that could stuff Barnsley this season,not really much going for Barnsley. its football and nothing else.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: pib on September 16, 2018, 11:35:35 am
I agree that it’s mainly the Premier League / sustained spells in a higher division factors, but just take one look at Barnsley’s digital marketing output. It’s very good, especially to say it’s apparently done with a small team.

Not having a go at Rovers or anybody at the club, because this side of things is getting better, but there are still areas that could improve IMO.

You can dismiss digital marketing as not being relevant or not making a difference to attracting fans, but this is 2018, not 1985. The next generation of fans and potential fans are all on social media & YouTube and they can all be attracted to the club on the “emotion” the club create through marketing.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: RedJ on September 16, 2018, 02:14:11 pm
i will stick to what we have at Donny, a rugby union team in the championship, a rugby league team, a top class racecourse, an airport and a wildlife park,as well as our football team that could stuff Barnsley this season,not really much going for Barnsley. its football and nothing else.

Suppose in Barnsley you've got first dibs on your sister as well. Though I imagine/hope that's an incentive localised to Barnsley...
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: DonnyBazR0ver on September 16, 2018, 02:53:40 pm
There's always scope for didital marketing as it's more targeted and I can only comment from were I stand, the club seems to be much better with their use of social media.

As said above, you'd expect more folk to turn up and like what they see on the pitch and things like the newly expanded fan park can only help enhance the off field experience.

Providing we maintain this form we have to secure our crown jewels with the manager and players who are capable of making the grade at Championship level and want to do it with us. That and statements of ambition such as securing the services of Wilks and possibly the likes of Kane etc, will prepare us to make that leap and gain the belief of fans in wanting to buy tickets for next season.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: pib on September 16, 2018, 04:18:23 pm
There’s a lot of criticism of the club, but lets put a few facts in...

1) A winning team
2) Affordable ticket prices

Those will help to boost attendances no end and will be the biggest factors. You hardly ever see a top of the table team playing in an empty stadium, yet a crap team will always have an empty stadium.

The way Rovers have conducted themselves with the passing of Pie Man also makes a massive impression and that’ll reach a bigger local audience than any marketing b*llocks will do.

There’s always ways to do improve, etc, but the club is miles more professional than it was 10 years ago.

That's PR. Different ball game for marketing. If you think it's "b*llocks" then I'm glad you're not working for or advising the club.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: sheffield exile1 on September 16, 2018, 04:48:10 pm
If you look in some of the older programmes from the last halcyon days in tier 2 in the 50's same comments about lack of crowds and we played Man C, Liverpool, West Ham. Blackburn, Derby and  Forest. Interestingly a West Ham away programme said it hoped that season's crowd was higher than the 6.000 they got for the same fixture the previous season! Of course away fans travelling was not anywhere like today and the reserves pulled in thousands as thay was the norm to go to as opposed to the first team away.
Title: Re: Why do Barnsley...
Post by: pib on September 16, 2018, 05:01:21 pm
There’s a lot of criticism of the club, but lets put a few facts in...

1) A winning team
2) Affordable ticket prices

Those will help to boost attendances no end and will be the biggest factors. You hardly ever see a top of the table team playing in an empty stadium, yet a crap team will always have an empty stadium.

The way Rovers have conducted themselves with the passing of Pie Man also makes a massive impression and that’ll reach a bigger local audience than any marketing b*llocks will do.

There’s always ways to do improve, etc, but the club is miles more professional than it was 10 years ago.

That's PR. Different ball game for marketing. If you think it's "b*llocks" then I'm glad you're not working for or advising the club.

Thing is though you can do marketing, marketing, marketing until the cows come home.

More often than not it's already preaching to the converted - the 'Football for a Fiver' posts will be shared by converts, already bitten by the bug, and seen by the same audience - as well as the ones who follow/friends with the said converts on social media, etc.

That 'PR' is brilliant as it'll be noticed by people who aren't necessarily fans, but people who are Pie Man's mates, family, etc, and the impression it sets is fantastic.

If there was a magic wand for good marketing that works they'd be a mid-table club in this league playing in a full stadium every week, selling-out, with memberships, etc, galore, but there isn't one.

Success on the pitch and cheap tickets are the two biggest factors. Get that right and everything else follows.


But that's just my opinion having seen it from both sides at different points over the past few years.

I don't disagree with your highlighted comments, but there's more to marketing than "football for a fiver" type posts that just try to overtly sell tickets, as I've talked about previously in this thread. It's all about generating a feeling and a belonging, and not just saying "we're playing this weekend and it costs this much"

I'll shut up about it now anyway. I respect that other people have different views so I'll agree to disagree.