Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on May 06, 2019, 03:51:09 pm
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Interesting one dropping into folks' letterboxes
https://mobile.twitter.com/NickFerran/status/1125367419000819713/photo/1
Let's see.
Why would you print an entire leaflet and print the name of the party and leader in a different colour and typeface?
Well, let's be charitable. Maybe they were getting prepared before they officially launched the party. Or decided what to call it. Or who the leader was. That would be sensible.
Except...
Oh yeah? Where would they have got the money from for this, before they were officially set up?
See, they've been insisting that they've been funded entirely through individual donations which, magically, are all just below the £500 level at which the donor can remain anonymous.
But they couldn't get those donations before they were officially founded as a party. By which time, they knew the name of the party.
Looks like someone's been funding this punt before they were set up. I wonder who? And why Farage refuses to talk about it?
Still, I'm sure any genuine British patriot would see through this, and not support a man with a track record of funnelling money from hostile Govts into UK elections. Because that would be supporting treason, wouldn't it?
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I wonder how they decided who to send them to personally addressed?
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I wonder how they decided who to send them to personally addressed?
Every household has got one.
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I don't buy this at all.
Did it not occur to this Twitter whacko to actually look at the whole leaflet (which they are obviously in possession of) before indulging in conspiracy theories?
Either that, or they did look at the whole leaflet, but folded it and posted a picture with the intention to deceive.
Luckily for us, there just so happens to be an image of one of these leaflets in full online. And here it is.
Link (https://data.electionleaflets.org/leaflets/brexit-party-n1_9sn-20190504-front.jpg)
Hmm... so we have:
a) The Brexit Party logo
b) A picture of Farage's mug
c) Three names and pictures of candidates announced only two weeks ago.
d) The "Published on behalf of..." small print.
I wouldn't get your tinfoil hats out just yet.
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Will people never learn. This is exactly what Farage wants. The media starting conspiracy theories about him and his party to deflect from the fact they have no policies and just want to create chaos and division.
We know what they are against - but what are they for? How will voting for him make your life better? What are his policies? Where's his manifesto? These are the points to tackle him and his supporters on.
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Pilskin
1) There is absolutely no question but that there have been multiple passes of that leaflet through the printer.
1) Look at the black text in the main box saying "Brexit Party". It's a different font to the rest of the text. And, no tellingly, it doesn't line up on the same horizontal line as the rest of the text. That's a dead giveaway that the "Brexit Party" text has gone on later. It's amateurish and it jumps out to anyone who looks at it. But hey! We know from a decade of experience that Farage thinks the people who vote for him are as thick as pigshit and don't look at things too closely.
2) The photos and "new candidates": It's been obvious for months that Farage was going to support the New Party. What wasn't fixed until recently was that he was going to support it. So printing a leaflet with his mugshot and words on it was a given. Then not printing what his position was until later actually bolsters the argument that I was making, rather than detracts from it.
3) Ditto with the "new" candidates. It takes a certain gullibility to think that this new party has been put together on the hoof with zero planning before the recent announcements. Those three have been prominent Brexiter activists for a while. They would have been slam dunks to be chosen as Brexit Party candidates. So, as with the Farage picture and text, you put them on the initial template.
4) Accept that this leaflet has been through the printer more than once and the "Published on behalf of..." and "Brexit" text within the logo can be added at any time. Note, by the way, that the person who says he is promoting this leaflet has mis-spelled his own name. He's actually Tim VinTcent. Do YOU ever mis-spelled your own name on official documents? No...me neither. Odd, isn't it?
Believe or disbelieve that. But it does all fit a narrative that Farage's new party is riding a coach and horses through party funding rules. And he's deliberately refusing to say where his funding comes from. Which, given his track record, immediately indicates that it's illegal. But he wants you to ignore that. If he gets a big success this month, the fact that his party is illegally funded (and I'll bet a pound to a pinch of shit it's funded by the Kremlin, just like Leave.EU) will be ignored in the media fest.
That worries me. A lot.
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As I was saying...
https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1125342269513633792
What does this remind me of? Hang on. Hang on.
Got it.
https://www.nbcnews.com/meet-the-press/video/donald-trump-i-will-release-tax-returns-607836227723
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Billy you can rip apart his leaflet,you can question his donations and you can ask what the party's policy's are (nobody knows) all you want but its just not going to matter..
We've just had the local elections,the tory's got hammered as expected but the Labour actually managed to lose seats in what should have been a landslide..People voted for anybody but the two main party's..They didn't care what the independents leaflets looked like,there local policy's or who had paid the cost to print the leaflet..
Basically they voted in protest and when the EU elections come round they will do so again.Personally for the first time in my life I wont be voting,i simply couldn't justify a cross in any box for this one but make no mistake Farage will win because this is the leavers version of the peoples vote..
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WingCo
I agree with everything you are saying.
But. Democracy only survives if people defend it. Shrugging your shoulders and ignoring Farage's funding is simply not acceptable if you truly believe in democracy.
If you don't fight back against people funnelling money from a hostile country to win elections, then our system of democracy is dead.
This isn't about Left and Right. It isn't about Leave and Remain. It's about whether you are a supporter of Britain, or happy to see elections bought by foreign kleotocrats.
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Surely the best solution is to have a free press equally providing information on all sides of debate? We aren't too bad at that in this country but clear verified facts presented should be the best way and equally?
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That depends were the donations has come from of course,Farage has said they have had one big donation so far and the rest made up of membership contributions.However he is reluctant to say were that has come from just yet but he will have too at some point but by then it wont really matter to him..Because he knows that for the vast majority of people it doesn't matter..
To me though that's not the sad thing here..The sad thing is that people don't have a party to vote for and are so fed up with the main party's they would happily vote for people they know nothing about or what they stand for as we've just seen in our local elections...
There is just no debate anymore on the hustings,In my area the conservatives breezed straight back in,There was no door knocking,no chance to talk about local policy's etc etc.It wasn't that long ago a perspective councillor would have a q&a at the local village hall to get across his thoughts and ideas..
All I got was a pamphlet from the tory's telling me what they had achieved in local council while missing out the massive cuts that have happened to our local services and especially the cuts to children with special needs...But at least they talked about local issues,the Labour one was a disgrace it was a generic leaflet sent out to everybody no matter what council you were from with the only difference been they changed the picture of the candidate at the bottom depending on your area..The leaflet was basically just attacking the tory's on the national picture..
There were Local elections not a GE yet they still thought it better to fight them on the national picture...
Farage will breeze this election because the two main party's are totally inept Brexit or no Brexit...
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Why are people on here going on about the Brexit Party? You're all getting the second referendum you've been bleating on about for so long. If you don't agree with Brexit, go out and vote Labour, Lib Dem, Change UK, or the Greens; simple as.
What can be more democratic than that?
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Well, the Government has confirmed that the EU elections will take place in the UK on May 23rd. Nigel will be well happy.
I think people may have forgotten that these elections feature a form of PR, hence there's no need for tactical voting.
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Strange this , only one person in our household got this today - my daughter finishing off her last semester abroad on Erasmus + .
I asked what I should do with it earlier this evening .....she told me to burn the bloody thing - she and us detest him and everything that he and his masters stand for.
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Has she ever got a car insurance quote off Moneysupermarket Hoola?
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Why are people on here going on about the Brexit Party? You're all getting the second referendum you've been bleating on about for so long. If you don't agree with Brexit, go out and vote Labour, Lib Dem, Change UK, or the Greens; simple as.
What can be more democratic than that?
Oh come on Steve, what's wrong with remoaning. Now the facts are on the table it's time to reject this Brexit shite once and for all - let's get all this xenophobia, racism, mysogny lies and bullshit out of the way and start tackling the real problems in our society.
The real problems certainly isn't the EU unless they have been in charge of austerity, housing, policing etc etc .
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Has she ever got a car insurance quote off Moneysupermarket Hoola?
No but she has a first name that could be considered foreign and of course she is has only had a chance to vote in GE17 and recent LE19. Living in Don Valley we would usually be considered as dead certs to vote Leave.
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Well, the Government has confirmed that the EU elections will take place in the UK on May 23rd. Nigel will be well happy.
I think people may have forgotten that these elections feature a form of PR, hence there's no need for tactical voting.
There would have to be a degree of tactical voting or you could find " real " Remain Parties splitting their vote . Ideally they might have come to an agreement to run a joint campaign and targeted seats . If the vote splits they could remain with jointly the same % as the Brexit Party with far far fewer seats. Twitter seems to have the Remain vote coalescing around the Lib/ Dems following their recent success.
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Well, the Government has confirmed that the EU elections will take place in the UK on May 23rd. Nigel will be well happy.
I think people may have forgotten that these elections feature a form of PR, hence there's no need for tactical voting.
There would have to be a degree of tactical voting or you could find " real " Remain Parties splitting their vote . Ideally they might have come to an agreement to run a joint campaign and targeted seats . If the vote splits they could remain with jointly the same % as the Brexit Party with far far fewer seats. Twitter seems to have the Remain vote coalescing around the Lib/ Dems following their recent success.
If coalescing behind the Lib Dems isn't desperation I don't know what is.!!
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Well, the Government has confirmed that the EU elections will take place in the UK on May 23rd. Nigel will be well happy.
I think people may have forgotten that these elections feature a form of PR, hence there's no need for tactical voting.
There would have to be a degree of tactical voting or you could find " real " Remain Parties splitting their vote . Ideally they might have come to an agreement to run a joint campaign and targeted seats . If the vote splits they could remain with jointly the same % as the Brexit Party with far far fewer seats. Twitter seems to have the Remain vote coalescing around the Lib/ Dems following their recent success.
If coalescing behind the Lib Dems isn't desperation I don't know what is.!!
The Lib Dems are as barmy as the Greens. People just use them as a protest vote.
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The Liberal Democrat councillors in Bradford are far better and talk more sense than their big two party counterparts.
I've never voted Tory on principal and over the last few years cannot find a way to support Labour. So probably a wasted vote but a clear conscience.
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The Liberal Democrat councillors in Bradford are far better and talk more sense than their big two party counterparts.
I've never voted Tory on principal and over the last few years cannot find a way to support Labour. So probably a wasted vote but a clear conscience.
That may be true at a local level but would you want you want them to run the country?
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Idler it's never a wasted vote mate..You vote for what you think is the best party..Others will disagree of course and sometimes you find yourself in a big minority but then at least that gives you piece of mind that you voted for what you believe in, that's why I've never believed in tactical voting..
These EU elections though have me stumped because right now there wont be a party to vote for that I can get behind...
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Idler it's never a wasted vote mate..You vote for what you think is the best party..Others will disagree of course and sometimes you find yourself in a big minority but then at least that gives you piece of mind that you voted for what you believe in, that's why I've never believed in tactical voting..
These EU elections though have me stumped because right now there wont be a party to vote for that I can get behind...
I always vote for the closest candidate to my beliefs.
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Then I will be the same as you Axholme with my vote.
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Then I will be the same as you Axholme with my vote.
It's all you can do. I've cast many a vote knowing it would make no difference, but as you say at least you did what you personally was the right thing to do. :)
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Why are people on here going on about the Brexit Party? You're all getting the second referendum you've been bleating on about for so long. If you don't agree with Brexit, go out and vote Labour, Lib Dem, Change UK, or the Greens; simple as.
What can be more democratic than that?
Oh come on Steve, what's wrong with remoaning. Now the facts are on the table it's time to reject this Brexit shite once and for all - let's get all this xenophobia, racism, mysogny lies and bullshit out of the way and start tackling the real problems in our society.
The real problems certainly isn't the EU unless they have been in charge of austerity, housing, policing etc etc .
Like I said Hoola, for those of you that don't want Brexit, this is your big chance to say so. No silly petitions, protests, or marches, just go out and vote for what you want.
As regards the real problems in our society, I totally agree with you there; I just don't trust any of the clowns in Westminster to put them right.
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I haven't had one of Nige's leaflets yet, so either the Brexit Party think I'm a hopeless case or they would be preaching to the converted.
However this morning I found in my letterbox a leaflet from the Conservative Party. I have only just stopped laughing after reading perhaps the greatest political gag of all time.
"The only party which can GET BREXIT DONE is the Conservative Party."
They don't write them like that any more.
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I haven't had one of Nige's leaflets either. Maybe they're taking it for granted that the intelligent among us don't need persuading.
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if ' the intelligent amongst us ' are voting first and then finding out about the policies they voted for later , then this country is well and truly f@cked.
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if ' the intelligent amongst us ' are voting first and then finding out about the policies they voted for later , then this country is well and truly f@cked.
Well Nige did spend a good year going on about Norway then changing to No Deal so plenty of time to say what people voted for after.
Makes me quite worried that people are still voting for Brexit (Brexit Party) despite the lies such as the ones on the side of a bus and the comments from JRM saying any benefits wouldn't happen for over 50 years. There is literally no reason to vote Brexit, especially people in South Yorkshire. Yes, we give to the EU but then the money we get back goes in to underfunded areas which SY is near the top of that list, so why would anyone vote to give more money to people who don't want to give our area any?
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What do you mean the people are still voting Brexit? Voting is over! Brexit won!
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What do you mean the people are still voting Brexit? Voting is over! Brexit won!
I even put Brexit Party in brackets after Hun x
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if ' the intelligent amongst us ' are voting first and then finding out about the policies they voted for later , then this country is well and truly f@cked.
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It's because so many people think this country is already well and truly f**ked that they voted Brexit in the first place.
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'they' , apart from the tax avoiding millionaires and disaster capitalists , which won't be many in Donny , voted Brexit because they believed a lot of , pretty obvious , ( and blatantly now ) obvious lies.
Scapegoats are very useful for some politicians , see A. Hitler, but the EU is not the cause of this Countries problems , so leaving would not only not make anything better , but ,
as the Government's own and every other economic assessment tells us , make things a lot worse.
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'they' , apart from the tax avoiding millionaires and disaster capitalists , which won't be many in Donny , voted Brexit because they believed a lot of , pretty obvious , ( and blatantly now ) obvious lies.
Scapegoats are very useful for some politicians , see A. Hitler, but the EU is not the cause of this Countries problems , so leaving would not only not make anything better , but ,
as the Government's own and every other economic assessment tells us , make things a lot worse.
Funny that you mention Mr Hitler, he also had a European army, they called it the Waffen SS! They had a bit of form in the Ukraine as well, just like the EU.
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The EU are back to being Nazis again. Last week they were the USSR. Next week they'll be that weird cult off the Wicker Man. I can't keep up!
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The EU are back to being Nazis again. Last week they were the USSR. Next week they'll be that weird cult off the Wicker Man. I can't keep up!
It's the same thing. A totalitarian regime trying to bind nations with nothing in common with each other together under one banner and destroy and remnants of national identity.
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The EU are back to being Nazis again. Last week they were the USSR. Next week they'll be that weird cult off the Wicker Man. I can't keep up!
It's the same thing. A totalitarian regime trying to bind nations with nothing in common with each other together under one banner and destroy and remnants of national identity.
Jesus wept...
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The EU are back to being Nazis again. Last week they were the USSR. Next week they'll be that weird cult off the Wicker Man. I can't keep up!
It's the same thing. A totalitarian regime trying to bind nations with nothing in common with each other together under one banner and destroy and remnants of national identity.
Fascinating, I never knew that. Which remnants of national identity is it that are being destroyed?
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It's because so many people think this country is already well and truly f**ked that they voted Brexit in the first place.
And you believe Brexit will unf**k it? If you can't see that Brexit will only make it worse then there's no help for you BB.
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The EU are back to being Nazis again. Last week they were the USSR. Next week they'll be that weird cult off the Wicker Man. I can't keep up!
It's the same thing. A totalitarian regime trying to bind nations with nothing in common with each other together under one banner and destroy and remnants of national identity.
Fascinating, I never knew that. Which remnants of national identity is it that are being destroyed?
The Angles, Saxons and Jutes apparently Wilts.
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It's because so many people think this country is already well and truly f**ked that they voted Brexit in the first place.
And you believe Brexit will unf**k it? If you can't see that Brexit will only make it worse then there's no help for you BB.
That's your opinion Kato but its a typical remainers response...
I voted Brexit,not on what Johnson or Farage said or immigration..I voted Brexit because as a business owner I was tired of seeing my industry crushed under eu regulations,grants we were paying towards for setting up new factory's in the eu,who don't play by the same rules as we do on workers rights,wages etc etc..it's two one sided and I was tired of having to tell people they were losing there jobs because yet another manufacturing plant had opened up in Poland or Romania offering the same product at much cheaper prices because they didn't have to pay the same level of wages or have the same health and safety etc etc....
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The EU are back to being Nazis again. Last week they were the USSR. Next week they'll be that weird cult off the Wicker Man. I can't keep up!
It's the same thing. A totalitarian regime trying to bind nations with nothing in common with each other together under one banner and destroy and remnants of national identity.
Fascinating, I never knew that. Which remnants of national identity is it that are being destroyed?
All of them when the EU eventually morphs into their eventual aim of a United States of Europe.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/12/07/german-spd-leader-martinschulz-seeks-united-states-europe-2025/
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AL
You ever visited Mississippi and Manhattan?
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AL
You ever visited Mississippi and Manhattan?
No, but I've just booked three nights in Goathland.
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It's because so many people think this country is already well and truly f**ked that they voted Brexit in the first place.
And you believe Brexit will unf**k it? If you can't see that Brexit will only make it worse then there's no help for you BB.
That's your opinion Kato but its a typical remainers response...
I voted Brexit,not on what Johnson or Farage said or immigration..I voted Brexit because as a business owner I was tired of seeing my industry crushed under eu regulations,grants we were paying towards for setting up new factory's in the eu,who don't play by the same rules as we do on workers rights,wages etc etc..it's two one sided and I was tired of having to tell people they were losing there jobs because yet another manufacturing plant had opened up in Poland or Romania offering the same product at much cheaper prices because they didn't have to pay the same level of wages or have the same health and safety etc etc....
Couple of questions WC, do you see things being easier to set up a new factory inside the EU if the UK or just England is not in the EU and from your comments regarding health safety and wages would you look to reduce all of them if we go our own way?
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It's because so many people think this country is already well and truly f**ked that they voted Brexit in the first place.
And you believe Brexit will unf**k it? If you can't see that Brexit will only make it worse then there's no help for you BB.
I hope so because that is what the majority voted for. I guess I'm just one of the majority of people with no common sense.
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It's because so many people think this country is already well and truly f**ked that they voted Brexit in the first place.
And you believe Brexit will unf**k it? If you can't see that Brexit will only make it worse then there's no help for you BB.
I hope so because that is what the majority voted for. I guess I'm just one of the majority of people with no common sense.
Well the last couple of years of reduced growth combined with Austerity is what would be coming if we do leave so at least everyone will be used to it.
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'they' , apart from the tax avoiding millionaires and disaster capitalists , which won't be many in Donny , voted Brexit because they believed a lot of , pretty obvious , ( and blatantly now ) obvious lies.
Scapegoats are very useful for some politicians , see A. Hitler, but the EU is not the cause of this Countries problems , so leaving would not only not make anything better , but ,
as the Government's own and every other economic assessment tells us , make things a lot worse.
So, the EU has delivered only good things for the U.K. but hasn’t contributed to any of the problems it faces?
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That could be because the uncertainty has eaten away at business confidence and investment. Once we actually do leave that could change.
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It's because so many people think this country is already well and truly f**ked that they voted Brexit in the first place.
And you believe Brexit will unf**k it? If you can't see that Brexit will only make it worse then there's no help for you BB.
I hope so because that is what the majority voted for. I guess I'm just one of the majority of people with no common sense.
Well the last couple of years of reduced growth combined with Austerity is what would be coming if we do leave so at least everyone will be used to it.
Haven’t we faced austerity and low economic growth while a member of the EU?
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AL
You ever visited Mississippi and Manhattan?
No, but I've just booked three nights in Goathland.
Point being that they are two components of a much closer Union than Europe will ever be, but they have kept very different cultures. Anyone who thinks there is any possibility of counties as diverse as Estonia and Portugal and Ireland and Sweden being merged into one cultural mush is away with the fairies.
But your comments do shine a light on how stupid that attitude is. There's an assumption among many Leavers that Europe consists of us Brits and them Europeans. As if Italians and Slovakians and Spaniards and Danes don't have pride in their own countries' heritage and culture.
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BB
Aye. It could be. Or it might not.
So why don't you look at what the overehelming majority of economists think will happen?
HA.
Aye. Of course we have. Due to the policy choices of the party who now tell us how brilliant Brexit will be for our economy. Go figure...
Austerity has hit our South Yorkshire economy so hard that that evil, thieving EU was just about to invest €3bn in SY to try to kick start our economy. That's €3bn taken from richer German and Dutch and Swedish tax payers. Bizarrely, Brexit supporters seem to think that the Tory Govt would do a better job of investing in SY.
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It's because so many people think this country is already well and truly f**ked that they voted Brexit in the first place.
And you believe Brexit will unf**k it? If you can't see that Brexit will only make it worse then there's no help for you BB.
I hope so because that is what the majority voted for. I guess I'm just one of the majority of people with no common sense.
Well the last couple of years of reduced growth combined with Austerity is what would be coming if we do leave so at least everyone will be used to it.
Haven’t we faced austerity and low economic growth while a member of the EU?
True, and that's with the benefit of being a member of the most wealthy trading bloc on the planet, I wonder what it will be like without that support, HA
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BST, it doesn't matter one iota what the majority of economists think. It's not because of their poor predictions so far, it's because we democratically voted to leave the EU.
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BST, it doesn't matter one iota what the majority of economists think. It's not because of their poor predictions so far, it's because we democratically voted to leave the EU.
back into the circular argument again BB?
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It shouldn't be an argument, Sidney. I believe in democracy. All who live in this country should also. The problem is those who only believe in it when it suits.
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The referendum was never legally binding and Brexit should never have happended on the back of such a small margin. MPs should have stood their ground and said "we respect the referendum result, obviously people aren't happy with the EU over certain issues so we will commit to enforcing change from within, oh and we're not going to f**king leave because we don't want to see the country f**ked"
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No. We're not in circular arguments.
BB questions whether things will improve after we leave.
I suggest he looks at what professional economist who have been right consistently predict what will happen.
BB says it doesn't matter.
That's not circular. That's changing tracks when the argument you start off with runs into the buffers.
But, if we're changing tracks on the discussion then fine. Regarding respect for democracy, I have it in bucket loads. Which is why I'm so annoyed about the Leave campaigns not having it in 2016, when they broke the law on a huge scale. I am continually amazed that no Leave supporter seems in the least bit concerned about that.
I'm also amazed that they don't seem to be upset about being treated as thick by the prominent Leave supporters who told us one thing before the vote, then switched their arguments 180 degrees once they'd suckered people into voting the way they wanted.
Strange thing, this respect for democracy. Almost as if the only thing that matters is winning because it means the other side lost.
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It's because so many people think this country is already well and truly f**ked that they voted Brexit in the first place.
And you believe Brexit will unf**k it? If you can't see that Brexit will only make it worse then there's no help for you BB.
I hope so because that is what the majority voted for. I guess I'm just one of the majority of people with no common sense.
Well the last couple of years of reduced growth combined with Austerity is what would be coming if we do leave so at least everyone will be used to it.
Haven’t we faced austerity and low economic growth while a member of the EU?
True, and that's with the benefit of being a member of the most wealthy trading bloc on the planet, I wonder what it will be like without that support, HA
Or you could argue that EU membership was largely ineffective and we’d have faced those issues whether or not we were members. I can’t pretend to know enough about it to have too much of a definite opinion one way or another. The only thing I do clearly recall was the EU supporting the UK government in its talks to buy cheap imported European coal in the early 90’s after it had decided to close down a large number of pits. I can’t see that the EU helped much there...
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The referendum was never legally binding and Brexit should never have happended on the back of such a small margin. MPs should have stood their ground and said "we respect the referendum result, obviously people aren't happy with the EU over certain issues so we will commit to enforcing change from within, oh and we're not going to f**king leave because we don't want to see the country f**ked"
How could they have said they respected the referendum result but as far as carrying it out you can f**k off, we ain't leaving?
It was a democratic vote to see what the country wanted. It wasn't a question that the public could get wrong by voting leave against politicians wishes. The government gambled and lost because they were out of touch with public opinion. The result of the majority was the answer, and that should be the end of it.
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The referendum was never legally binding and Brexit should never have happended on the back of such a small margin. MPs should have stood their ground and said "we respect the referendum result, obviously people aren't happy with the EU over certain issues so we will commit to enforcing change from within, oh and we're not going to f**king leave because we don't want to see the country f**ked"
How could they have said they respected the referendum result but as far as carrying it out you can f**k off, we ain't leaving?
It was a democratic vote to see what the country wanted. It wasn't a question that the public could get wrong by voting leave against politicians wishes. The government gambled and lost because they were out of touch with public opinion. The result of the majority was the answer, and that should be the end of it.
It's a shame no-one in parliament can see this. They just want to keep themselves on the gravy train.
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It's because so many people think this country is already well and truly f**ked that they voted Brexit in the first place.
And you believe Brexit will unf**k it? If you can't see that Brexit will only make it worse then there's no help for you BB.
I hope so because that is what the majority voted for. I guess I'm just one of the majority of people with no common sense.
Well the last couple of years of reduced growth combined with Austerity is what would be coming if we do leave so at least everyone will be used to it.
Haven’t we faced austerity and low economic growth while a member of the EU?
True, and that's with the benefit of being a member of the most wealthy trading bloc on the planet, I wonder what it will be like without that support, HA
Or you could argue that EU membership was largely ineffective and we’d have faced those issues whether or not we were members. I can’t pretend to know enough about it to have too much of a definite opinion one way or another. The only thing I do clearly recall was the EU supporting the UK government in its talks to buy cheap imported European coal in the early 90’s after it had decided to close down a large number of pits. I can’t see that the EU helped much there...
So, should the EU have supported the democratically elected government of the UK as it did - or work against the democratically elected UK government and try and impose their own policy on the UK...like the sort of organisation a lot of Brexiters accuse it of being?
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The EU are back to being Nazis again. Last week they were the USSR. Next week they'll be that weird cult off the Wicker Man. I can't keep up!
It's the same thing. A totalitarian regime trying to bind nations with nothing in common with each other together under one banner and destroy and remnants of national identity.
What is our national identity? We're Romans, Vikings, Normans, etc who have a German, Danish, Greek monarchy.
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The EU are back to being Nazis again. Last week they were the USSR. Next week they'll be that weird cult off the Wicker Man. I can't keep up!
It's the same thing. A totalitarian regime trying to bind nations with nothing in common with each other together under one banner and destroy and remnants of national identity.
What is our national identity? We're Romans, Vikings, Normans, etc who have a German, Danish, Greek monarchy.
I think you're making a silly argument going back 1,000 years. Much the same could be said of most countries in Europe.
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The referendum was never legally binding and Brexit should never have happended on the back of such a small margin. MPs should have stood their ground and said "we respect the referendum result, obviously people aren't happy with the EU over certain issues so we will commit to enforcing change from within, oh and we're not going to f**king leave because we don't want to see the country f**ked"
How could they have said they respected the referendum result but as far as carrying it out you can f**k off, we ain't leaving?
Politicians do it all the time, saying that they respect what the people are telling them to do, and then go and do something else.
Like with the local elections, and all the pro-brexit parties losing out massively to the pro-remain candidates, and we get May and Corbyn both telling us they respect what the public has said and will press along with Brexit?!?!?
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It's because so many people think this country is already well and truly f**ked that they voted Brexit in the first place.
And you believe Brexit will unf**k it? If you can't see that Brexit will only make it worse then there's no help for you BB.
That's your opinion Kato but its a typical remainers response...
I voted Brexit,not on what Johnson or Farage said or immigration..I voted Brexit because as a business owner I was tired of seeing my industry crushed under eu regulations,grants we were paying towards for setting up new factory's in the eu,who don't play by the same rules as we do on workers rights,wages etc etc..it's two one sided and I was tired of having to tell people they were losing there jobs because yet another manufacturing plant had opened up in Poland or Romania offering the same product at much cheaper prices because they didn't have to pay the same level of wages or have the same health and safety etc etc....
Couple of questions WC, do you see things being easier to set up a new factory inside the EU if the UK or just England is not in the EU and from your comments regarding health safety and wages would you look to reduce all of them if we go our own way?
I will answer those gladly Sydney.First of all you do not scrimp on health and safety of your employee's,nobody comes to work to get hurt and it's priority number 1 and I also wouldn't dream of reducing anybody's weekly wage.However you cant get away from the fact that these things cost a lot of money to run..Thats fine if your on a eu level playing field but your not..I've got 15 British and 2 polish welders here.Before I wrote this I popped out into the factory and asked him what he would expect to be paid in Poland for the same job he does here.It was below our minimum wage infact about 40% less than he earns here...
So when the eu pays grants to build new factorys with new equipment which we've contributed to, and then runs it with a 40% less wage bill and little regulations to health and safety you simply cant compete...The end result is you lose contracts and then you have to drag people into your office and say "sorry Fridays your last day" That's reality
As for the second part of your question,no I don't think we will be better off short term but without our big contribution less will be built and without the incentives they receive some of these so called big british manufacturers will start buying British again..In fact I've spoken and quoted to a few companies currently buying from the Eu who would then look to bring work back in house in the UK.i'm under no illusion that short term there will be pain but for me it's worth it...
I appreciate that's looking at it from my own circumstances and I'm sure some could pick holes in it all day long in theory,but the above is not theory it's reality to whats happened over the last decade in my field of business...
On a side note even though we are still in the EU and still paying contributions.Grant money coming the other way has all but stopped.Yesteday I spoke to a director of one of the biggest groundwork companies in the Uk who was moaning that they had 3 huge projects on hold because grant money originally awarded for there construction was seeming being delayed for a variety of reasons,and when he sorts those they give him more reasons..He's in no doubt it's because we are leaving and they want to avoid paying them...Meanwhile we continually pay money in and they are gladly accepting it...
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Fascinating stats.
Despite what some are trying to make us believe the Brexit Party are not the party of the working class. Labour has the largest support among people with an income of under £20k - the Brexit Party are the party of choice for those with an income of over £40k.
Help the rich - vote for Farage
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1128657610436227072
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Fascinating stats.
Despite what some are trying to make us believe the Brexit Party are not the party of the working class. Labour has the largest support among people with an income of under £20k - the Brexit Party are the party of choice for those with an income of over £40k.
Help the rich - vote for Farage
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1128657610436227072
And what do you know, its not just rich people, its rich people over 55 (like Farage himself then)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-party-poll-nigel-farage-european-elections-voters-a8913371.html
Help the elderly rich get richer - vote for Farage
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The EU are back to being Nazis again. Last week they were the USSR. Next week they'll be that weird cult off the Wicker Man. I can't keep up!
It's the same thing. A totalitarian regime trying to bind nations with nothing in common with each other together under one banner and destroy and remnants of national identity.
What is our national identity? We're Romans, Vikings, Normans, etc who have a German, Danish, Greek monarchy.
I think you're making a silly argument going back 1,000 years. Much the same could be said of most countries in Europe.
And Brexiteers are oddly obsessed with WW2. Neither have anything to do with today politics.
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Neither has WW3, but Cameron, along with other Remoaners have been obsessed with using it to scaremonger over Brexit.
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The EU are back to being Nazis again. Last week they were the USSR. Next week they'll be that weird cult off the Wicker Man. I can't keep up!
It's the same thing. A totalitarian regime trying to bind nations with nothing in common with each other together under one banner and destroy and remnants of national identity.
What is our national identity? We're Romans, Vikings, Normans, etc who have a German, Danish, Greek monarchy.
Or, in the case of my kids, Irish and Italian thrown into the mix.
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Neither has WW3, but Cameron, along with other Remoaners have been obsessed with using it to scaremonger over Brexit.
No BB. They didn't.
Various people pointed out the undeniable fact that Europe (Britain very much included) has historically been the most dangerous place in the world, that an explicit aim of the EU has always been to attempt to get us beyond the competitive nationalism that gave us centuries of war, and to point out the dangers of resurgent nationalism.
Anyone who says that Brexit would lead directly to WWIII is an idiot. Anyone who ignores the job that the EEC/EC/EU has done in cementing peace and democracy across Europe is an even bigger idiot.
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The EU are back to being Nazis again. Last week they were the USSR. Next week they'll be that weird cult off the Wicker Man. I can't keep up!
It's the same thing. A totalitarian regime trying to bind nations with nothing in common with each other together under one banner and destroy and remnants of national identity.
What is our national identity? We're Romans, Vikings, Normans, etc who have a German, Danish, Greek monarchy.
I think you're making a silly argument going back 1,000 years. Much the same could be said of most countries in Europe.
Go on then.
YOU introduced the idea of national identity. You define it then.
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Well this could be fun.
https://www.ft.com/content/a9caa9de-766f-11e9-bbad-7c18c0ea0201
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Neither has WW3, but Cameron, along with other Remoaners have been obsessed with using it to scaremonger over Brexit.
No BB. They didn't.
Various people pointed out the undeniable fact that Europe (Britain very much included) has historically been the most dangerous place in the world, that an explicit aim of the EU has always been to attempt to get us beyond the competitive nationalism that gave us centuries of war, and to point out the dangers of resurgent nationalism.
Anyone who says that Brexit would lead directly to WWIII is an idiot. Anyone who ignores the job that the EEC/EC/EU has done in cementing peace and democracy across Europe is an even bigger idiot.
I never suggested anyone said Brexit would lead directly to WW3. I said it was used as scaremongering by Cameron, and other Remainers when they said it could bring us closer to a potential WW3.
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Same story here but you dont have to pay to view it
https://www.politico.eu/article/boris-johnson-could-be-prosecuted-over-brexit-bus-claim/
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It's because so many people think this country is already well and truly f**ked that they voted Brexit in the first place.
And you believe Brexit will unf**k it? If you can't see that Brexit will only make it worse then there's no help for you BB.
I hope so because that is what the majority voted for. I guess I'm just one of the majority of people with no common sense.
Well the last couple of years of reduced growth combined with Austerity is what would be coming if we do leave so at least everyone will be used to it.
Haven’t we faced austerity and low economic growth while a member of the EU?
True, and that's with the benefit of being a member of the most wealthy trading bloc on the planet, I wonder what it will be like without that support, HA
Or you could argue that EU membership was largely ineffective and we’d have faced those issues whether or not we were members. I can’t pretend to know enough about it to have too much of a definite opinion one way or another. The only thing I do clearly recall was the EU supporting the UK government in its talks to buy cheap imported European coal in the early 90’s after it had decided to close down a large number of pits. I can’t see that the EU helped much there...
So, should the EU have supported the democratically elected government of the UK as it did - or work against the democratically elected UK government and try and impose their own policy on the UK...like the sort of organisation a lot of Brexiters accuse it of being?
That’s not the point as you well know. The insinuation was that the EU somehow protects the UK from economic difficulties. History tells us that’s not the case and indeed some of their actions (being a capitalist institution) have had a detrimental affect on the nations labour market.
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Neither has WW3, but Cameron, along with other Remoaners have been obsessed with using it to scaremonger over Brexit.
No BB. They didn't.
Various people pointed out the undeniable fact that Europe (Britain very much included) has historically been the most dangerous place in the world, that an explicit aim of the EU has always been to attempt to get us beyond the competitive nationalism that gave us centuries of war, and to point out the dangers of resurgent nationalism.
Anyone who says that Brexit would lead directly to WWIII is an idiot. Anyone who ignores the job that the EEC/EC/EU has done in cementing peace and democracy across Europe is an even bigger idiot.
I never suggested anyone said Brexit would lead directly to WW3. I said it was used as scaremongering by Cameron, and other Remainers when they said it could bring us closer to a potential WW3.
And your point is?
Surely anything which leads to a resumption in competitive nationalism across Europe is, by definition, likely to lead to a less peaceful Europe?
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So you're against competitive nationism?
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I'm against what it has always led to in Europe, yes, of course. Aren't you?
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Fascinating stats.
Despite what some are trying to make us believe the Brexit Party are not the party of the working class. Labour has the largest support among people with an income of under £20k - the Brexit Party are the party of choice for those with an income of over £40k.
Help the rich - vote for Farage
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1128657610436227072
Is 40k rich? I'd say not.
Question for others if we were out by now with May's deal would we be better off?
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I'm against what it has always led to in Europe, yes, of course. Aren't you?
Not as the reason for staying in the EU, no. Besides, we're not going to be competitive, are we? We're told we'll have no food on our shelves? Why would they think we're a threat?
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40k is a middle class salary. Brexit party is a middle class party.
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BB
See, going back over the past 150 years, these are the major European conflicts involving current EU countries.
Wars of Italian Unification
Wars of German Unification
Franco-Prussian War
1st, 2nd and 3rd Balkan Wars
WWI
Estonian War of Independence
Allies involvement in the Russian Civil War
Polish War of Independence
Lithuanian War of Independence
Latvia War of Independence
Polish-Lithuanian War
Polish-Soviet War
Hungarian-Romanian War
Greco-Turkish War
Czechoslovak-Hungarian War
Irish War of Independence
Spanish Civil War
WWII
Greek Civil War
Irish Troubles
Basque Troubles
Cypriot Civil War
Yugoslavian Civil War.
Notice a pattern?
Every single conflict commenced before the protagonists were members of the EU. No single conflict in Europe has ever been started by or in a country that is a member of the EU.
If you want to have a look, you'll find a similar story about revolutions and military could.
Draw your own conclusions.
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BB
You're a smart lad, so I assume you're deliberately playing thick in not getting what "competitive" means here.
It's not about trying to run a better industry. It's about frictions between competing national interests. The ones that have led to wars every few years in Europe before the EU.
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Well, well, well.
I know I'm preaching to the unconvertable, but this is quite something.
https://bylinetimes.com/2019/05/15/brexit-party-donations-farages-miracle-claims-do-not-add-up/
Read it. The punch line at the end should set even the hardest Farage fan questioning his honesty.
If you can't be bothered, the gist of the story is what I've posted about before. That something stinks to high f**king heaven about The Brexit Party's funding.
The party has a link from its website to an anonymous PayPal account for people to donate. And the anonymity means there's no way of checking whether the donors are genuine, True Brit supporters, or someone funnelling money in from....ooohhh, maybe Russia or somewhere.
Farage claimed that in the first 9 days after they launched the website, 60,000 people donated and became members. So this reporter has run traffic checks on the website and reckons that there were no more than 16,000 visitors in total to the website.
At that point, I'm wondering how trustworthy the traffic checks are. And I'm expecting the Brexit Party to say it's all a conspiracy story.
Which they did.
And they provided their own data of traffic to the website. Which shows 10s of thousands of visitors every day. They don't say where their data comes from. But it's their data, so I'm happy to trust it.
Except...oh yeah. For the nine days Farage was talking about, their data says precisely ZERO people visited the website.
Surely they're not so dismissive of their supporters' concerns for democracy that they can't even fake their own data correctly? Knowing that none of their supporters will give a f**k anyway?
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It's because so many people think this country is already well and truly f**ked that they voted Brexit in the first place.
And you believe Brexit will unf**k it? If you can't see that Brexit will only make it worse then there's no help for you BB.
That's your opinion Kato but its a typical remainers response...
I voted Brexit,not on what Johnson or Farage said or immigration..I voted Brexit because as a business owner I was tired of seeing my industry crushed under eu regulations,grants we were paying towards for setting up new factory's in the eu,who don't play by the same rules as we do on workers rights,wages etc etc..it's two one sided and I was tired of having to tell people they were losing there jobs because yet another manufacturing plant had opened up in Poland or Romania offering the same product at much cheaper prices because they didn't have to pay the same level of wages or have the same health and safety etc etc....
Nope, it's a typical reality response, and it's not an opinion.
Do you genuinely think that your industry will be able to compete better outside the EU? If so, how? Pay your workers less than the Poles? Lower your health and safety standards below Romanians?
I'm still waiting for a leaver to tell me, backed with facts and figures, how we will be better off outside the EU. Economists overwhelmingly agree that we'll be worse off, are you suggesting they're wrong?
So exactly how are we, as a country, going to be better off WC. How is the lot of those on minimum wage, zero hour contracts, the unemployed going to improve? Where is the money that, under the EU, goes to deprived areas going to come from, (yes, I know it's money that we as a country give to the EU in the first place), do you genuinely believe that the UK government will do for those areas what the EU currently does?
And tell me, how will our children and grand-children's education and job prospects be better outside the EU when the children and grandchildren of people in those countries in the EU can choose to study and ultimately work anywhere within it?
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It's because so many people think this country is already well and truly f**ked that they voted Brexit in the first place.
And you believe Brexit will unf**k it? If you can't see that Brexit will only make it worse then there's no help for you BB.
I hope so because that is what the majority voted for. I guess I'm just one of the majority of people with no common sense.
So you base your life and your future on hope rather than facts BB? Oh well, takes all sorts I suppose.
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BST, We might have been free from war with other countries In our continent, but at what price? We are constantly fighting invisible enemies in the form of terrorists exploiting the EU open borders policy.
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BB
I'm genuinely banging my head on the table here at how stupid I've been.
It's taken me 2.5 years but I've finally got it! You're parodying this concept of the stereotypical stupid Leave supporter! Of course!
That's naughty. And very, very disrespectful.
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BST, I expect your disrespect, but I'd like an unexpected answer now and again.
Let's see if you can answer a hypothetical question. How do you think France would vote in an EU Remain/Leave referendum?
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It's because so many people think this country is already well and truly f**ked that they voted Brexit in the first place.
And you believe Brexit will unf**k it? If you can't see that Brexit will only make it worse then there's no help for you BB.
I hope so because that is what the majority voted for. I guess I'm just one of the majority of people with no common sense.
So you base your life and your future on hope rather than facts BB? Oh well, takes all sorts I suppose.
No mate, I base my life on fact. The fact is we voted out of the EU. YOU are the one basing your life on hope. Hope of a revote!
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BB.
I'm not being disrespectful. I'm crediting you with leading me a merry dance for 2.5 years.
That latest one finally made the scales fall from my eyes. No-one would seriously compare the wars of the 20th century that cost the best part of 70million European lives (including the thick end of 1.5million British lives) with the (very real) problem of Islamist terrorism that, if I'm counting correctly, has caused 92 deaths in the UK. And certainly, no one being serious would claim that was in any way due to EU immigration policy, since the majority of those attackers were British born and the ones who weren't could have been stopped at our border anyway, since we have nothing to do with the Schengen agreement.
You're far too smart to say anything that stupid unless you're doing a parody.
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BST, take a break from thinking of a response to my France question and read this.
https://www.newstatesman.com/world/2016/05/how-valid-claim-eu-has-delivered-peace-europe
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BB
Yes, yes, yes. Well done. The parody act is coming along great.
You've found an article that headlines itself by questioning whether the EU has been instrumental in keeping the peace.
Grand.
Have you read it?
I'm guessing not, because it is a difficult read and I very nearly gave up at:
some years ago, when I was writing about the EU’s values, it occurred to me that it was too simplistic to think of ‘peace’ as only meaning the absence of war.
Because, yeah. Just because you, like, haven't got WAR, you, like, can't say you've got, like, PEACE, man.
But I stuck it out to the final paragraph.
But ultimately, the EU is institutionally programmed to favour peace and not the use of military force. Though it can and does leave the challenges of confronting violence directly to other organisations (NATO particularly), the EU signals a pacific intent. And that might be its enduring virtue. The fact that many people are disappointed that it hasn’t done more or enough for the cause of peace perhaps indicates the EU’s potential as a vehicle of the non-violent resolution of conflicts, wherever they occur. And if so, isn’t it better to be at the heart of such an organisation intent on solving violent disputes peacefully and collectively?
And then I went back to the start and saw this.
Whatever else it may have or have not done, the Union has helped avoid war between the current members of the EU since 1945.
Remind me what your point was in posting that link?
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BST
My point was that we might have been free from war with other countries In our continent, but at what price?
Now............ What about France?
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Is that the sound of the train jumping the tracks again?
Bedtime pal.
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I'm not sure what you're hearing, Billy lad. France?...........................
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BST
My point was that we might have been free from war with other countries In our continent, but at what price?
Now............ What about France?
Is that a statement, a question or something else, what about France? is that what your basing an argument on a hypothetical question? You have got to do better than that BB
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Well, it was a question Sydney, but I was kind of aiming it at BST. No disrespect like, but I'm sure he's quite capable of providing his own b*llocks of an answer without you intervening.
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Well, it was a question Sydney, but I was kind of aiming it at BST. No disrespect like, but I'm sure he's quite capable of providing his own b*llocks of an answer without you intervening.
My b*llocks is just as valid as yours on an open forum BB, if you want a private discussion with BST there is PM provided for just that, so it's a question, with what relevance to the discussion? I'd have though most flag flyers wouldn't give a monkeys about what the French think. But I support what Kato said that no one has provided any proof that anything will be better if we leave (not even the government) are you going to provide it BB cos if you do you win the whole debate, there you go it's as easy as that.
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The question is relevant in regards to how popular the EU actually is within its membership. It's about the possibility of a lot more people wanting to leave it than we think and not just the UK.
Of course, I can't provide any proof that we will be better off if we leave, nobody can. But nobody can provide any proof that we will be worse off either. There is no proof.
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The question is relevant in regards to how popular the EU actually is within its membership. It's about the possibility of a lot more people wanting to leave it than we think and not just the UK.
Of course, I can't provide any proof that we will be better off if we leave, nobody can. But nobody can provide any proof that we will be worse off either. There is no proof.
Sounds a bit Cameron, lets have another poll but this time in France, as for proof lets make it even easier for you, give us a handful of reputable economists that have laid out the case for a better UK economy if we leave.
Remind me how many independent trade deals we have signed.
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I don’t know about France, but when I was staying with an Italian Family last year they were telling me how much the EU is disliked in Italy. They reckoned that if they had a similar referendum it’d be likely a leave vote would win.
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Sydney. When have I EVER said we will be better off? I've ALWAYS said that I don't know. There are people far more educated in this type of thing who might be able to FORECAST the outcome, but that's not proof!
Neither is it the point. My point is, and always has been, that we voted to leave so we should stop bloody moaning and get on with it.
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Of course BB.
And we just ignore the criminal investigation into the actions of the Leave campaign because...democracy!
https://mobile.twitter.com/Len_Duvall/status/1128296130830307328
Still. At least we're briefly back in track, eh?
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BST
My point was that we might have been free from war with other countries In our continent, but at what price?
Now............ What about France?
You totally lost me on that one. What price did that author think we had paid?
As for France,
1) I don't know
2) I've got no idea why you would ask a question that has nothing remotely to do with what we were discussing.
If you want to talk about France, fill your boots.
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Sydney. When have I EVER said we will be better off? I've ALWAYS said that I don't know. There are people far more educated in this type of thing who might be able to FORECAST the outcome, but that's not proof!
Neither is it the point. My point is, and always has been, that we voted to leave so we should stop bloody moaning and get on with it.
BB, I find it really strange that you (or anyone for that matter) want to persist honouring the results of a vote the result of which came from a corrupt process to the point that it would appear that you are concealing pro brexit views behind it when clearly the experts tell us it will be an unmitigated disaster for the economy with the main recipients of the wrought upon the less well off. Voting is or should be sacrosanct and scrupulously clean there is more than enough doubt over the 2016 poll to have it again.
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BST
My point was that we might have been free from war with other countries In our continent, but at what price?
Now............ What about France?
You totally lost me on that one. What price did that author think we had paid?
As for France,
1) I don't know
2) I've got no idea why you would ask a question that has nothing remotely to do with what we were discussing.
If you want to talk about France, fill your boots.
I think the author is suggesting that the price of peace in Europe could be at the cost of neglect in its endeavours to reduce and resolve conflict with countries outside of Europe.
I asked you about France because I wondered if it too contained more people with no 'common sense' than those with it, like us in the UK.
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Sydney. When have I EVER said we will be better off? I've ALWAYS said that I don't know. There are people far more educated in this type of thing who might be able to FORECAST the outcome, but that's not proof!
Neither is it the point. My point is, and always has been, that we voted to leave so we should stop bloody moaning and get on with it.
BB, I find it really strange that you (or anyone for that matter) want to persist honouring the results of a vote the result of which came from a corrupt process to the point that it would appear that you are concealing pro brexit views behind it when clearly the experts tell us it will be an unmitigated disaster for the economy with the main recipients of the wrought upon the less well off. Voting is or should be sacrosanct and scrupulously clean there is more than enough doubt over the 2016 poll to have it again.
Let's have another vote then and see where it leaves us.
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BST
My point was that we might have been free from war with other countries In our continent, but at what price?
Now............ What about France?
You totally lost me on that one. What price did that author think we had paid?
As for France,
1) I don't know
2) I've got no idea why you would ask a question that has nothing remotely to do with what we were discussing.
If you want to talk about France, fill your boots.
I think the author is suggesting that the price of peace in Europe could be at the cost of neglect in its endeavours to reduce and resolve conflict with countries outside of Europe.
I asked you about France because I wondered if it too contained more people with no 'common sense' than those with it, like us in the UK.
So what's your thinking on the other 26 countries your logic actually defies logic BB!
If you are only concerned about the result and that it should be honoured, what is your view of the a future UK outside the EU do you agree with the experts that it will be less propsperous?
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I chose France because of the immigrant problems there. It would be interesting to know how all the countries would vote. I suspect the scale of contentment would increase with the countries that are more dependent and gain more benefit from membership.
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I chose France because of the immigrant problems there. It would be interesting to know how all the countries would vote. I suspect the scale of contentment would increase with the countries that are more dependent and gain more benefit from membership.
I think that's highly unlikely. South Yorks has received, and would have continued to receive very large sums of money from the EU. It has been and would have continued to be one of the largest net gainers from membership of the EU. And it voted by a large margin to Leave.
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I chose France because of the immigrant problems there. It would be interesting to know how all the countries would vote. I suspect the scale of contentment would increase with the countries that are more dependent and gain more benefit from membership.
I think that's highly unlikely. South Yorks has received, and would have continued to receive very large sums of money from the EU. It has been and would have continued to be one of the largest net gainers from membership of the EU. And it voted by a large margin to Leave.
Last time I checked a Passport it said United Kingdom Of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, it didn't mention an area called South Yorkshire.
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I chose France because of the immigrant problems there. It would be interesting to know how all the countries would vote. I suspect the scale of contentment would increase with the countries that are more dependent and gain more benefit from membership.
I think that's highly unlikely. South Yorks has received, and would have continued to receive very large sums of money from the EU. It has been and would have continued to be one of the largest net gainers from membership of the EU. And it voted by a large margin to Leave.
Surely, if we're still paying into the EU, we should still be getting the money?
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BST
My point was that we might have been free from war with other countries In our continent, but at what price?
Now............ What about France?
You totally lost me on that one. What price did that author think we had paid?
As for France,
1) I don't know
2) I've got no idea why you would ask a question that has nothing remotely to do with what we were discussing.
If you want to talk about France, fill your boots.
I think the author is suggesting that the price of peace in Europe could be at the cost of neglect in its endeavours to reduce and resolve conflict with countries outside of Europe.
I asked you about France because I wondered if it too contained more people with no 'common sense' than those with it, like us in the UK.
Forgive my lack of appreciation about the point of your post. It does get confusing when you are firing off ideas at random. Your previous ones had been about terrorism, so I didn't automatically get that you'd then decided to drop the topic of terrorism and jump onto another theme - whether the EU does enough to keep world peace. I'm sure you appreciate my trouble in keeping up with your mental leaps.
Actually, I still don't get why you posted that article. Are you suggesting that you'd prefer the EU to take a stronger role in preventing conflict OUTSIDE Europe? And that you'd prioritise that over the EU acting to preserve peace INSIDE Europe?
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Surely, if we're still paying into the EU, we should still be getting the money?
The people of South Yorkshire are massive net BENEFICIARIES. That's the point.
The airport and the link road and the Frenchgate Centre were all subsidised by folk from Milan and Munich and Rotterdam and Gothenburg and Barcelona. They'd had subsidised another €3bn worth of investment over the next 7 years if the people of South Yorks hadn't decided that we are better off without it.
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The referendum was never legally binding and Brexit should never have happended on the back of such a small margin. MPs should have stood their ground and said "we respect the referendum result, obviously people aren't happy with the EU over certain issues so we will commit to enforcing change from within, oh and we're not going to f**king leave because we don't want to see the country f**ked"
How could they have said they respected the referendum result but as far as carrying it out you can f**k off, we ain't leaving?
Politicians do it all the time, saying that they respect what the people are telling them to do, and then go and do something else.
Like with the local elections, and all the pro-brexit parties losing out massively to the pro-remain candidates, and we get May and Corbyn both telling us they respect what the public has said and will press along with Brexit?!?!?
Pro-brexit parties losing out? Come on Bob, keep up with events; the Brexit Party never stood in the locals. Wait until next Thursday; they'll muller everybody else, and finally put to bed the myth that Brexit voters are changing their minds.
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The referendum was never legally binding and Brexit should never have happended on the back of such a small margin. MPs should have stood their ground and said "we respect the referendum result, obviously people aren't happy with the EU over certain issues so we will commit to enforcing change from within, oh and we're not going to f**king leave because we don't want to see the country f**ked"
How could they have said they respected the referendum result but as far as carrying it out you can f**k off, we ain't leaving?
Politicians do it all the time, saying that they respect what the people are telling them to do, and then go and do something else.
Like with the local elections, and all the pro-brexit parties losing out massively to the pro-remain candidates, and we get May and Corbyn both telling us they respect what the public has said and will press along with Brexit?!?!?
Pro-brexit parties losing out? Come on Bob, keep up with events; the Brexit Party never stood in the locals. Wait until next Thursday; they'll muller everybody else, and finally put to bed the myth that Brexit voters are changing their minds.
I can't wait for Thursday.
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Interesting this morning, Tories and labour showing way down but the Tories still top of the polls admittedly with a low vote share.
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Well who'd have thought it?
Labour's refusal to unambiguously support Remain policies is killing it in the polls.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/16/labour-brexit-remain-voters-european-elections
I'm a Labour party member but I'm not voting for them next week. Labour's policy on the EU is an utter car crash and has done the unthinkable - rehabilitated the Lib Dems.
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And here comes the real point of the whole Brexit process.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48299424
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Labour has a 5% lead in the poll of polls - its highest since January 2014
Since the beginning of April there have been 7 polls giving Labour a 9 point lead.
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats
https://twitter.com/britainelects
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK
Who needs facts eh.
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Well who'd have thought it?
Labour's refusal to unambiguously support Remain policies is killing it in the polls.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/16/labour-brexit-remain-voters-european-elections
I'm a Labour party member but I'm not voting for them next week. Labour's policy on the EU is an utter car crash and has done the unthinkable - rehabilitated the Lib Dems.
Then you are helping Farage.
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Well who'd have thought it?
Labour's refusal to unambiguously support Remain policies is killing it in the polls.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/may/16/labour-brexit-remain-voters-european-elections
I'm a Labour party member but I'm not voting for them next week. Labour's policy on the EU is an utter car crash and has done the unthinkable - rehabilitated the Lib Dems.
Then you are helping Farage.
Only voting for the Brexit party is helping Farage.
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Well no actually. Not in multi-representative seats with PR.
Personally, I'd save my opprobrium for those on the Left who couldn't bring themselves to vote for Labour in 2010 as a protest. They were the ones whose indulgence of their own ideological purity gave us the Tory-LD coalition and a decade of Austerity.
If a few hundred people in 10 or a dozen constituencies who switched to the Greens or LDs or abstained had held their noses and voted Labour, we'd have had a Lab-LD coalition and a totally different 2010s.
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Labour has a 5% lead in the poll of polls - its highest since January 2014
Since the beginning of April there have been 7 polls giving Labour a 9 point lead.
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats
https://twitter.com/britainelects
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK
Who needs facts eh.
Wilts
Since the start of May, there have been 7 Westminster polls.
Labour has averaged 28%.
If you think that is something to crow about, you're away with the fairies.
Labour is ahead in the polls because the Tories are haemorrhaging support to Farage.
You think will be a permanent state of affairs?
Wait till May steps down in the summer, and she's replaced by someone who packages up the Tories as the Hard Brexit party and pulls that support back.
Labour is in a catastrophic position because it is losing so much support to the LDs and Greens and (to a lesser extent) to ChUK.
This is precisely what was predicted 6 months ago. And precisely what Kellner surgical analyses in the article I posted earlier.
Anyway. I thought you didn't trust polls...?
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I think this European Elections polling data is about as flawed as any I have ever seen. I have no way of analysing the data any better either myself BTW.
I see no way of calculating the turnout for a start. I mean seriously are people gonna turn up to vote for someone to represent them if at best they will only do so until Halloween (apparently) but then again ALL political discussion for the last 4 years has been about the EU. Asking people on YouGov if they'll turn up seems a bit ridiculous and voting intention is massive both leavers and remainers have legit reasons to stay away.
Brexit Party top by a huge distance seems to make sense with the remain vote split amongst so many other parties. However, They have only just come into existence and despite the heavy coverage their numbers look falsly inflated. 1. Voters who say they'll vote Brexit in the EU elections could possible be confused by second ref talk or mean a Brexit party. 2. Voters who say they'll vote Brexit Party are more likely to not vote out of protest at still being in the EU when the day comes. 3. Their are at least 4 parties that disillusioned brexiteers might vote for UKIP, BREXIT, English Democrat, Change UK* (*I know they don't support Brexit you know they don't support Brexit but let's be honest if you've truly had it with politics then you've probably stopped paying attention, have no idea who they are but know Farage has a new party and jump to conclusions - They are top of the coupon here too)
And that's before we even begin to look at the remain side which is arguably even more complex and if we have Labour members saying they won't vote Labour how can anyone have any confidence forecasting anything?
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Anyway. I thought you didn't trust polls...?
Well I am unsure about the conclusions of the ones conducted by a leading activist in the Peoples Vote campaign thats for sure.
The Tories are on 20%, BP are on 20% and UKIP on 4%. Yet you still believe Labour is only loosing to the Lib Dems 13% & Change UK 2%. None so blind as them that can't see.
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I haven't got a clue what you are talking about on the PV issue.
On the other point, I didn't say Labour was ONLY losing support to Remain-committed parties. But it is undoubtedly losing far more Remain supporters than Leave supporters.
In the first fortnight of the New Year, when Corbyn was still managing to keep up the line that Labour supported both Leave and Remain, the average poll figures were.
Lab 37
Con 39
LD 10
UKIP 5
Green 3.5
First two weeks of May, as Labour's line is collapsing, we have
Lab 28
Con 23
LD 13.5
BREXIT 19
UKIP 3
Green 5.5
ChUK 3.5
So the vote share of out and out Remain supporting parties has gone up by 9 points. And whaddya know? Labour's share has gone down by 9 points.
Similarly, the vote share of avowedly Hard BREXIT parties has gone up by 17 points. And the Tories' share has gone down by 16 points.
Occam's Razor feels rather sharp when confronted with figures like that.
The horrifying problem for Labour is that the Tories have an obvious way to win back support from the Brexit supporting parties. By putting a Johnson or Raab in as leader. What does Labour do to win back Remain supporters?
Still, I'm sure I'm wrong, and St Jeremy the Infallible has got it all under control...
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It strikes me that two and a half years too late the Tories have finally realised that being a pro-Brexit party and being led by a Remainer is a recipe for electoral suicide.
How long will it take Labour to realise that having a pro-Remain party led by a Leaver is just as bad? And when they do, will they be able to do anything about it?
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Well the togger season might be over, but I see the lying shite season is still in full swing.
https://mobile.twitter.com/TomEden11/status/1129503504769474562
Anti-establishment man of the people. How stupid do you have to be to entertain that thought for a second?
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So, let's just stop and think.
Arron Banks paid Farage £450,000 for the rent on a luxury London house and a chauffeur driven car in England because "it happened in America"?
And he didn't have to declare it to the European Parliament because he "was leaving politics"? Future tense, obviously, because the lying, devious shite was still picketing €9000/month salary for his job (sic) as an MEP.
Tell me something. Is it REALLY so important to feel that you're on the winning side, that you will allow yourselves to be humiliated by supporting this crook?
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Billy, you can go on as much as you want about Labour and remain but I am afraid it wont change the actual facts, Labour can't win an election based on remain votes. Remainers are predominately based in university cities, Brexiteers in the countryside and smaller towns. To win a GE, Labour has to win actual seats, not bigger majorities in Bristol & London.
Look at the maps
https://petitionmap.unboxedconsulting.com/?petition=241584
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1129747289617174528/photo/1
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I do love the fact that several people on here who have slagged Corbyn for the past few years and said they would never vote Labour because he is a Marxist and supports terrorism - are now going to vote for a PROPER revolutionary Marxist who really does support the IRA and Jhadi terrorism. And making child pornography legal.
Well done chaps, you are properly socking it to the liberal elite there
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claire_Fox
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Wilts
That's as maybe, but there's one thing equally certain. When the Tories install a Hard Brexit PM, there is zero chance if Labour winning a GE if it has alienated Left Remainers. Who make up about 75% of the electorate that means towards Labour.
It's a quandary isn't it? Precisely the one that Corbyn brilliantly avoided in 2017 by convincing both sides that he was one of them. But as I've been saying for 2 years, that sleight of hand would not and could not survive the moment of truth when Corbyn was going to have to come down on one side or the other of the Brexit decision.
What he's actually done of course is to try to insist that he's still on both sides. It's just that a very large number of Left Remainers, possibly as many as 2.5-3million, no longer believe him and have moved away from Labour.
It's the logical conclusion that's been coming for a while. Corbynistas have been lauding their man as the builder of a great Left bloc. In reality, it was always hopelessly fragile. He's never appealed to the centre-left. They supported Labour because there was no logical alternative. But the resurrection of the LDs and the Greens has blown that situation apart.
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With upstanding citizen boris as pm what could go wrong, racist, dishonest, stupid, and worse he thinks people can't see this or don't care.
https://www.snp.org/boris-johnson-what-you-need-to-know-about-the-tory-pm-contender/
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My view is that JC needs to get behind or better still lead the remain camp or go now most of the lies (not all) are out and a big slice of the truth that surrounded the 2016 vote is there to see. Knowing the economic consequences of leaving in my book makes it impossible for anyone who considers themselves to be in the labour camp to actually vote for them. Changing leaders for the conservatives solves nothing.
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I find your thinking here very strange Billy. You say that the country wont vote for Corbyn as PM because he wont back remain (despite backing a 2nd referendum 4 times even putting it forward twice) yet they will vote for Johnson as PM because he voted leave.
I await to see the polling for that but my view is that he and Farage will split the right-wing vote whilst the old one-nation Tories will never vote for Johnson. Several MP's have said publicly they will leave the party and their supporters will either not vote or vote LD.
Syndey here has said that Corbyn should go because he wont challenge the lies of the referendum. Yet Billy believes the biggest liar will be voted PM. Something's not right there.
I would also caution you to be careful what you wish for. If Corbyn has alienated the left remainers then 75% of voters support a Brexit party (Opinium poll in todays observer). The LD resurgence has them on 11% not yet half of what they polled in 2010. And that is going to be heavily weight towards the south-west, where Labour never does well, according to the local elections. There's only one party surging in the polls and its certainly not a left wing one.
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Wilts, for a very clever person, you don't half make some ridiculously unsupportable conclusions. Takes me back to discussiins with SWP members 30-odd years ago. They were prone to similar behaviour. I think it started from assuming that your interlocutor was acting in bad faith, therefore (s)he must be shown to be wrong.
Difficult to know where to start to be honest, so bear with me.
1) I did not say that Corbyn wouldn't be elected PM because he won't support Remain. I said that he will haemorrhage support because of the public perception of him favouring Leave. I've said all along that the 2017 Labour performance came from a brilliant trick, where he convinced Leave and Remain supporters that he was on their side. And I've said for 2 years that couldn't not last. And it hasn't.
2) It's very, very silly of you to imply from that that ALL Remain supporters have left Labour. So silly, the conclusion you draw from that premise is really not worth answering.
3) I KNOW how many times Corbyn has said that Ref2 is an option. It's just that I (and according to the polls, about 2.5-3m other people who are instinctively Labour supporters) listen to and read every other comment he makes about Brexit, and decide that I believe his strong preference is not to have Ref2.
3) You mentioning the Lads in isolation is very silly. And choosing their lowest poll figure for a month is naughty. Over the past 10 polls, the LDs have averaged 14.5%, Greens 5% and ChUK 3%.
That's 20% of the electorate floundering around and choosing avowedly Remain supporting parties who have very little chance of winning many seats. Fertile ground for a more avowedly Remain supporting Labour.
4) Your entire thesis appears to be based around the idea that Labour's existential threat is losing the support of working class Leave voters. I'd advise you to have a look at that article by Peter Kellner that I posted last week and that you rejected out of hand because...well, because.
It sets out the numbers. Working class, Labour supporting Leave-supporters are actually one of the smallest groups in the electorate. I'd also add the factual (though, I'd expect controversial on here) note that they are predominantly older. It'd be a very foolish Labour party that hitched it's wagon to that horse and allowed an impression to be cemented in the heads of the next generation of voters that Labour was a Brexit-facillitating party.
That's enough for now. Stuff to do.
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EU Election polls
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-48227459
Before the Brexit party launch, the combined poll share of the right wing parties was about 44% (Tories 26, UKIP 18).
In the latest averages it's about 46% (Brexit 31, Tories 12, UKIP3).
Before the launch of the Brexit party, the combined centre and left poll share was about 52% (Lab 30, LD 10, Green 7, SNP 4, PC 1)
In the latest averages it is about 52%
Lab 21, LD 14, Green 8, ChUK 5, SNP 3, PC 1).
Screams out the bleeding obvious to me. The Brexit party hasn't hit Labour. It's hit the Tories and UKIP. Meanwhile, the avowedly Remain parties are tearing chunks out of Labour.
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Labour have let themselves down, they could have cleaned up majority of the remain votes if they listened to their members.
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Here's the problem though. And this is where I have sympathy with Wilts' opinion.
https://www.bestforbritain.org/vote2?region=Yorkshire%20and%20The%20Humber
Brexit party on 1/3rd of the vote in Yorkshire, but would get 1/2 the seats because of the split on the centre left.
If one of Lab, LD and Green were above 22% and the other 2 were above 11%, that would knock a seat off the Brexit party total.
As it is, the 4-5% supporting ChUK is a disaster - they are putting fascists into the EU parliament.
Personally, I'm totally at a loss on what to do. I want to shout a message out to Corbyn, but that risks another fascist getting elected.
I could weep. The Left is doing its usual historical thing of arguing between itself while the Far Right march on. There's no majority in the country for Fascism, but Farage will be on a roll because the people against him couldn't find common ground. Every one on the centre-Left will be to blame if he develops momentum from this.
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No. We're not in circular arguments.
BB questions whether things will improve after we leave.
I suggest he looks at what professional economist who have been right consistently predict what will happen.
BB says it doesn't matter.
That's not circular. That's changing tracks when the argument you start off with runs into the buffers.
But, if we're changing tracks on the discussion then fine. Regarding respect for democracy, I have it in bucket loads. Which is why I'm so annoyed about the Leave campaigns not having it in 2016, when they broke the law on a huge scale. I am continually amazed that no Leave supporter seems in the least bit concerned about that.
I'm also amazed that they don't seem to be upset about being treated as thick by the prominent Leave supporters who told us one thing before the vote, then switched their arguments 180 degrees once they'd suckered people into voting the way they wanted.
Strange thing, this respect for democracy. Almost as if the only thing that matters is winning because it means the other side lost.
That's because a certain somebody wasn't apparently a " Leave " voter . Remember this post ....
" But you are accusing him of changing his mind because he said he wanted a brilliant Brexit, after previously declaring he wanted to remain. I'm sure there are millions of others who now want a brilliant Brexit after voting to remain. I'm one of them.
" Have we all changed our mind? "
Let's play guess the poster ....
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For those that missed Marr this morning (which appears to be quite a lot of people giving the lack of coverage in the media & twitterati) Corbyn promised 4 times that any deal that parliament came up with had to be put back to the people in a confirmatory referendum. I dont know how much more explicit or high profile he could be with this change in policy, it's almost as it they dont want to report it.
https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1130052946341838848
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Did Marr bring up the past and question Corbyn's 'former' views on our EU membership?
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For those that missed Marr this morning (which appears to be quite a lot of people giving the lack of coverage in the media & twitterati) Corbyn promised 4 times that any deal that parliament came up with had to be put back to the people in a confirmatory referendum. I dont know how much more explicit or high profile he could be with this change in policy, it's almost as it they dont want to report it.
https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1130052946341838848
Because some people like nothing better than an excuse to criticise Corbyn! Usually the centre left in his own party ironically. Corbyn was a critic of the EU many years ago but the internal pressures from the centre left have clearly dictated this shift in Labour policy. Where this leaves Labour now is anyone’s guess. There’s irony in this at every turn
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No. We're not in circular arguments.
BB questions whether things will improve after we leave.
I suggest he looks at what professional economist who have been right consistently predict what will happen.
BB says it doesn't matter.
That's not circular. That's changing tracks when the argument you start off with runs into the buffers.
But, if we're changing tracks on the discussion then fine. Regarding respect for democracy, I have it in bucket loads. Which is why I'm so annoyed about the Leave campaigns not having it in 2016, when they broke the law on a huge scale. I am continually amazed that no Leave supporter seems in the least bit concerned about that.
I'm also amazed that they don't seem to be upset about being treated as thick by the prominent Leave supporters who told us one thing before the vote, then switched their arguments 180 degrees once they'd suckered people into voting the way they wanted.
Strange thing, this respect for democracy. Almost as if the only thing that matters is winning because it means the other side lost.
That's because a certain somebody wasn't apparently a " Leave " voter . Remember this post ....
" But you are accusing him of changing his mind because he said he wanted a brilliant Brexit, after previously declaring he wanted to remain. I'm sure there are millions of others who now want a brilliant Brexit after voting to remain. I'm one of them.
" Have we all changed our mind? "
Let's play guess the poster ....
48% of voters in the 2016 referendum have changed their mind. I don’t recall hearing one EU supporter argue against having the referendum. In fact they were enthusiastic about it...until the result didn’t go there way.
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HA
Corbyn is on video vitriolicly denouncing the EU just 3 years before the vote.
And he's on video 24 hours before the vote saying that there is a strong left wing case against the EU which he understands, but on balance he was in favour of staying in (and I shit you not) because plastic bags dropped off the coast of Colombia can end up in Japan.
And he's on video at dawn the morning after the vote saying passionately that A50 should be triggered immediately.
It stretches credibility to breaking point to suggest that he is, was or ever will be in favour of anything other than us leaving.
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HA
Corbyn is on video vitriolicly denouncing the EU just 3 years before the vote.
And he's on video 24 hours before the vote saying that there is a strong left wing case against the EU which he understands, but on balance he was in favour of staying in (and I shit you not) because plastic bags dropped off the coast of Colombia can end up in Japan.
And he's on video at dawn the morning after the vote saying passionately that A50 should be triggered immediately.
It stretches credibility to breaking point to suggest that he is, was or ever will be in favour of anything other than us leaving.
BST,
Your right. I’m not suggesting that he’s suddenly turned into Jean Monet, however as May is being forced into fighting a battle that she’s not supported, Corbyn in under pressure from his own party to follow a path that historically he’s always been against. Then again, the Labour centrists have never warmed to him as leader.
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HA.
He's not "under pressure" from his own party. It is official party policy. Decided at Conference, which Corbyn has spent a lifetime saying is the policymaking body of the party.
I didn't see the Marr show that Wilts mentions, but if Corbyn is now saying definitively that Labour will not support any deal that doesn't include a confirmatory referendum, that's great. It's just a pity that he's not been saying this clearly for the past three months while Labour's poll figures have been collapsing. The problem is that it is very easy to lose supporters and very hard to win them back.
For my part, if this is now clear Labour policy, they have my vote on Thursday.
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You know how this Brexit Party is making this big noise about taking on the Elite and the Establishment?
Have a look at the background of some of its candidates this week.
https://bylinetimes.com/2019/05/19/property-finance-hedge-funds-lobbying-media-a-guide-to-the-brexit-partys-elite-mep-candidates/
You're being had lads. It's not pleasant to see, but it's happening. They think you are so stupid that they can bank on your grievances to put City of London spivs into the EU parliament and expect them to represent you.
Time to wake up...
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HA.
He's not "under pressure" from his own party. It is official party policy. Decided at Conference, which Corbyn has spent a lifetime saying is the policymaking body of the party.
I didn't see the Marr show that Wilts mentions, but if Corbyn is now saying definitively that Labour will not support any deal that doesn't include a confirmatory referendum, that's great. It's just a pity that he's not been saying this clearly for the past three months while Labour's poll figures have been collapsing. The problem is that it is very easy to lose supporters and very hard to win them back.
For my part, if this is now clear Labour policy, they have my vote on Thursday.
And then ................... Corbyn defends Labour's bid for both leavers and remainers
''Jeremy Corbyn has given a robust defence of Labour’s decision to try to appeal to both leavers and remainers in this Thursday’s European elections''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/19/jeremy-corbyn-defends-labour-bid-leavers-remainers
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Thanks for that Sydney.
"Labour sources quickly denied Corbyn had intended the remarks as a shift towards promising a public vote on any deal."
Wilts almost had me convinced for a moment...
See, I am a bit confused here. Back in 2015, Corbyn took over the Labour Party insisting that he was straight and honest and principled and didn't do dissembling politics. I think that man has been abducted and replaced by someone else. Someone who is determined to tell both sides what he thinks they want to hear.
Trouble is, if you try to straddle both carriageways in a situation like this, you'll get knocked down from both sides.
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Thanks for that Sydney.
"Labour sources quickly denied Corbyn had intended the remarks as a shift towards promising a public vote on any deal."
Wilts almost had me convinced for a moment...
See, I am a bit confused here. Back in 2015, Corbyn took over the Labour Party insisting that he was straight and honest and principled and didn't do dissembling politics. I think that man has been abducted and replaced by someone else. Someone who is determined to tell both sides what he thinks they want to hear.
Trouble is, if you try to straddle both carriageways in a situation like this, you'll get knocked down from both sides.
The labor party here has just had a good kicking trying to do just that. Apart from a hostile 'print' media 70% owned by murdoch:
NT News breaks ranks as only News Corp paper to endorse Bill Shorten.
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/may/17/nt-news-breaks-ranks-as-only-news-corp-paper-to-endorse-bill-shorten
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No. We're not in circular arguments.
BB questions whether things will improve after we leave.
I suggest he looks at what professional economist who have been right consistently predict what will happen.
BB says it doesn't matter.
That's not circular. That's changing tracks when the argument you start off with runs into the buffers.
But, if we're changing tracks on the discussion then fine. Regarding respect for democracy, I have it in bucket loads. Which is why I'm so annoyed about the Leave campaigns not having it in 2016, when they broke the law on a huge scale. I am continually amazed that no Leave supporter seems in the least bit concerned about that.
I'm also amazed that they don't seem to be upset about being treated as thick by the prominent Leave supporters who told us one thing before the vote, then switched their arguments 180 degrees once they'd suckered people into voting the way they wanted.
Strange thing, this respect for democracy. Almost as if the only thing that matters is winning because it means the other side lost.
That's because a certain somebody wasn't apparently a " Leave " voter . Remember this post ....
" But you are accusing him of changing his mind because he said he wanted a brilliant Brexit, after previously declaring he wanted to remain. I'm sure there are millions of others who now want a brilliant Brexit after voting to remain. I'm one of them.
" Have we all changed our mind? "
Let's play guess the poster ....
48% of voters in the 2016 referendum have changed their mind. I don’t recall hearing one EU supporter argue against having the referendum. In fact they were enthusiastic about it...until the result didn’t go there way.
I don't remember any particular enthusiasm for it , if anything the Remain campaign could only be remembered as one of the most lacklustre campaigns in modern British history.
It was Easier far easier to sell the vision of Brexit , whereas the Remain campaign and those that had to extol its virtues were a disparate lot left with stale facts that the public were fully aware of already. No fears to prey on, no dreams to sell, no lies that you had to back up ....NADA , Zilch
I can't even remember who led the campaign if you could call it that .....it was a hiding to nothing .
Are you suggesting that Remainers wanted a Referendum , what kind of perverse logic is that ?
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You're being had lads.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/squirming-brexit-party-chief-repeatedly-16171228
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obviously Russian money is 'foreign money' , what is truly appalling is that the (supposedly more patriotic ) ' We Won - get over it ' brigade do not care.
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obviously Russian money is 'foreign money' , what is truly appalling is that the (supposedly more patriotic ) ' We Won - get over it ' brigade do not care.
Why all the anti Russia sentiment? We have much to thank them for in the fight against terror in Syria. Russia defends the Christian world against extremist murderers. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Britain, the US and the West are hardly whiter than white enforcing the downfall of middle eastern states leaving the power vacuum filled by IS and the so called 'moderate' rebels in Syria and the like.
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obviously Russian money is 'foreign money' , what is truly appalling is that the (supposedly more patriotic ) ' We Won - get over it ' brigade do not care.
Why all the anti Russia sentiment? We have much to thank them for in the fight against terror in Syria. Russia defends the Christian world against extremist murderers. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Britain, the US and the West are hardly whiter than white enforcing the downfall of middle eastern states leaving the power vacuum filled by IS and the so called 'moderate' rebels in Syria and the like.
Eh? If France had given money to the remain side that would still be a problem. No other country should be deciding our voting results.
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obviously Russian money is 'foreign money' , what is truly appalling is that the (supposedly more patriotic ) ' We Won - get over it ' brigade do not care.
Why all the anti Russia sentiment? We have much to thank them for in the fight against terror in Syria. Russia defends the Christian world against extremist murderers. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Britain, the US and the West are hardly whiter than white enforcing the downfall of middle eastern states leaving the power vacuum filled by IS and the so called 'moderate' rebels in Syria and the like.
Erm, because any money pumped into a UK political party from a non-UK source being - including Russia, who have form of colluding with Farage and Banks, is illegal?
Oh, and Salisbury. Or does terrorist activities by them in the UK not count?
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obviously Russian money is 'foreign money' , what is truly appalling is that the (supposedly more patriotic ) ' We Won - get over it ' brigade do not care.
Why all the anti Russia sentiment? We have much to thank them for in the fight against terror in Syria. Russia defends the Christian world against extremist murderers. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Britain, the US and the West are hardly whiter than white enforcing the downfall of middle eastern states leaving the power vacuum filled by IS and the so called 'moderate' rebels in Syria and the like.
you would have to ask Jc about Salisbury he didn’t seem to think it was Russia at the start
Erm, because any money pumped into a UK political party from a non-UK source being - including Russia, who have form of colluding with Farage and Banks, is illegal?
Oh, and Salisbury. Or does terrorist activities by them in the UK not count?
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obviously Russian money is 'foreign money' , what is truly appalling is that the (supposedly more patriotic ) ' We Won - get over it ' brigade do not care.
Why all the anti Russia sentiment? We have much to thank them for in the fight against terror in Syria. Russia defends the Christian world against extremist murderers. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Britain, the US and the West are hardly whiter than white enforcing the downfall of middle eastern states leaving the power vacuum filled by IS and the so called 'moderate' rebels in Syria and the like.
you would have to ask Jc about Salisbury he didn’t seem to think it was Russia at the start
Erm, because any money pumped into a UK political party from a non-UK source being - including Russia, who have form of colluding with Farage and Banks, is illegal?
Oh, and Salisbury. Or does terrorist activities by them in the UK not count?
Given that I don't give a f**k about anything JC thinks about Salisbury, why should I ask him anything? Why are you even telling me to ask him? What do you think about it, eh?
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It truly is like talking to a brick wall.
Here it is. Simply.
It is illegal for a political party to accept donations from foreign sources. Because British elections are supposed to be BRITISH elections, not something that can be skewed by foreign money. So political parties are required BY UK LAW to have robust means of verifying the source of political donations.
In good faith, to prevent political parties from having to undertake too much onerous admin, the Electoral Commission is prepared to waive the rules for donations lower than £500. Because most fair and open and honest donations are small ones, honestly made by Joe Bloggs.
BUT. Political parties are required BY LAW to have robust admin procedures in place to make sure this good faith exemption isn't being gamed. By, for example, a foreign organisation setting up a bot to make a £1/2 million transfer through 1001sets of £499.99 donations.
The Brexit party set up a donation website through PayPal. The maximum allowable donation was, wait for it...£499.99. And they CHOSE to set up the PayPal account so that it kept no record of the source of each donation (which, if you think about it, is utter batshit, because all genuine political parties want the contact details of people who donate to them, for future donation requests).
So, the Brexit Party has, on the face of it, broken electoral law by having no way of assessing whether their donations are multiple ones coming from the same source.
Then, on top of that, their PayPal donations page has been set up to accept donations in any world currency.
They didn't have to do it this way. They could have set it up to accept only pound sterling donations, from a UK bank or credit card.
At the very least they have inadvertently broken the law and exposed themselves to the possibility of being funded by foreigners with no way of checking. But given the track record of the spivs in charge (including their acting Treasurer who did time in America for money laundering) you'd have to be exceedingly kind hearted to think that was an innocent mistake.
Finally, it's got nothing to do with what you think about Russia's policy. This is a simple case of legality and the strength of the processes that make sure our democratic processes (which Leave supporters hold so dear) are robust enough to prevent foreigners perverting them.
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HA.
He's not "under pressure" from his own party. It is official party policy. Decided at Conference, which Corbyn has spent a lifetime saying is the policymaking body of the party.
I didn't see the Marr show that Wilts mentions, but if Corbyn is now saying definitively that Labour will not support any deal that doesn't include a confirmatory referendum, that's great. It's just a pity that he's not been saying this clearly for the past three months while Labour's poll figures have been collapsing. The problem is that it is very easy to lose supporters and very hard to win them back.
For my part, if this is now clear Labour policy, they have my vote on Thursday.
Yes that is what he explicitly states to Marr, any deal that parliament comes up with has to be put back to the people. The video clip is on Paul Mason's twitter.
https://twitter.com/paulmasonnews/status/1130052946341838848
What is also on Paul Mason's twitter is that Corbyn wanted this to be be the policy two weeks ago but he was outvoted at the NEC.
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Wilts.
Aye, the "sources close to Corbyn" immediately rushed to the press to clarify that he wasn't promising a referendum.
Jolly good. All nice and clear, eh?
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Thanks for that Sydney.
"Labour sources quickly denied Corbyn had intended the remarks as a shift towards promising a public vote on any deal."
Wilts almost had me convinced for a moment...
See, I am a bit confused here. Back in 2015, Corbyn took over the Labour Party insisting that he was straight and honest and principled and didn't do dissembling politics. I think that man has been abducted and replaced by someone else. Someone who is determined to tell both sides what he thinks they want to hear.
Trouble is, if you try to straddle both carriageways in a situation like this, you'll get knocked down from both sides.
No, he wont just wave any deal through. A deal with a CU, workers rights, environmental protection should be put to the public for a vote. May's deal and/or any other bad deal that Johnson, Rabb & crew come up with will be voted against. Watch the video.
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Wilts.
Aye, the "sources close to Corbyn" immediately rushed to the press to clarify that he wasn't promising a referendum.
Jolly good. All nice and clear, eh?
Well I certainly don't see that clip as him promising a referendum - how do you see it?
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By the way, if you read Mason's pronouncements regularly, you'll know that he's banging his head against the wall in frustration at the Corbyn inner circle (old school revolutionary communists) who are committed Lexiters. But, given the cult of personality around Corbyn, Mason knows that he cannot directly criticise the man himself.
It's enough to make you weep. The moment you so much as hint that you don't buy into the concept of Corbyn as beneficient, infallible leader, you're out of the debate on the left. So both sides highlight the things he says that support their policies and steadfastly ignore it when he contradicts those ideas.
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It truly is like talking to a brick wall.
Here it is. Simply.
It is illegal for a political party to accept donations from foreign sources. Because British elections are supposed to be BRITISH elections, not something that can be skewed by foreign money. So political parties are required BY UK LAW to have robust means of verifying the source of political donations.
In good faith, to prevent political parties from having to undertake too much onerous admin, the Electoral Commission is prepared to waive the rules for donations lower than £500. Because most fair and open and honest donations are small ones, honestly made by Joe Bloggs.
BUT. Political parties are required BY LAW to have robust admin procedures in place to make sure this good faith exemption isn't being gamed. By, for example, a foreign organisation setting up a bot to make a £1/2 million transfer through 1001sets of £499.99 donations.
The Brexit party set up a donation website through PayPal. The maximum allowable donation was, wait for it...£499.99. And they CHOSE to set up the PayPal account so that it kept no record of the source of each donation (which, if you think about it, is utter batshit, because all genuine political parties want the contact details of people who donate to them, for future donation requests).
So, the Brexit Party has, on the face of it, broken electoral law by having no way of assessing whether their donations are multiple ones coming from the same source.
Then, on top of that, their PayPal donations page has been set up to accept donations in any world currency.
They didn't have to do it this way. They could have set it up to accept only pound sterling donations, from a UK bank or credit card.
At the very least they have inadvertently broken the law and exposed themselves to the possibility of being funded by foreigners with no way of checking. But given the track record of the spivs in charge (including their acting Treasurer who did time in America for money laundering) you'd have to be exceedingly kind hearted to think that was an innocent mistake.
Finally, it's got nothing to do with what you think about Russia's policy. This is a simple case of legality and the strength of the processes that make sure our democratic processes (which Leave supporters hold so dear) are robust enough to prevent foreigners perverting them.
This could get interesting.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-48337499
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obviously Russian money is 'foreign money' , what is truly appalling is that the (supposedly more patriotic ) ' We Won - get over it ' brigade do not care.
Why all the anti Russia sentiment? We have much to thank them for in the fight against terror in Syria. Russia defends the Christian world against extremist murderers. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Britain, the US and the West are hardly whiter than white enforcing the downfall of middle eastern states leaving the power vacuum filled by IS and the so called 'moderate' rebels in Syria and the like.
Erm, because any money pumped into a UK political party from a non-UK source being - including Russia, who have form of colluding with Farage and Banks, is illegal?
Oh, and Salisbury. Or does terrorist activities by them in the UK not count?
The Russian government funding British political parties - no way that can happen, surely Theresa May would be all over it!
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/russian-donor-paid-135000-dinner-14976784
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6976843/Its-Ladies-night-Theresa-Cabinet-rivals-Brexit-feud-one-London-hotel.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/conservative-party-russia-donations-putin-theresa-may-lubov-chernukhin-tory-a8375636.html
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2018/03/11/tories-will-not-return-820000-russia-linked-donations-philip/
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/who-funds-conservative-party-donor-russia-vladimir-putin-link/
Personally I think Farage is more likely to be getting funding form American business interests than Russian ones
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What I don't understand, probably because I'm not moaning and crying about sovietentry is why those that are moaning and crying about democracy and taking back control are being fed the very opposite by a bunch of shyster puppeteers and those that claim to be able to see everything can't see this right in front of their eyes.
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obviously Russian money is 'foreign money' , what is truly appalling is that the (supposedly more patriotic ) ' We Won - get over it ' brigade do not care.
Why all the anti Russia sentiment? We have much to thank them for in the fight against terror in Syria. Russia defends the Christian world against extremist murderers. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Britain, the US and the West are hardly whiter than white enforcing the downfall of middle eastern states leaving the power vacuum filled by IS and the so called 'moderate' rebels in Syria and the like.
Erm, because any money pumped into a UK political party from a non-UK source being - including Russia, who have form of colluding with Farage and Banks, is illegal?
Oh, and Salisbury. Or does terrorist activities by them in the UK not count?
why did you mention Salisbury then lol
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obviously Russian money is 'foreign money' , what is truly appalling is that the (supposedly more patriotic ) ' We Won - get over it ' brigade do not care.
Why all the anti Russia sentiment? We have much to thank them for in the fight against terror in Syria. Russia defends the Christian world against extremist murderers. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Britain, the US and the West are hardly whiter than white enforcing the downfall of middle eastern states leaving the power vacuum filled by IS and the so called 'moderate' rebels in Syria and the like.
Erm, because any money pumped into a UK political party from a non-UK source being - including Russia, who have form of colluding with Farage and Banks, is illegal?
Oh, and Salisbury. Or does terrorist activities by them in the UK not count?
why did you mention Salisbury then lol
He did it because AL was insisting that Russia is our friend and we shouldn't worry about them pumping money into the Brexit campaign.
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obviously Russian money is 'foreign money' , what is truly appalling is that the (supposedly more patriotic ) ' We Won - get over it ' brigade do not care.
Why all the anti Russia sentiment? We have much to thank them for in the fight against terror in Syria. Russia defends the Christian world against extremist murderers. You can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. Britain, the US and the West are hardly whiter than white enforcing the downfall of middle eastern states leaving the power vacuum filled by IS and the so called 'moderate' rebels in Syria and the like.
Erm, because any money pumped into a UK political party from a non-UK source being - including Russia, who have form of colluding with Farage and Banks, is illegal?
Oh, and Salisbury. Or does terrorist activities by them in the UK not count?
why did you mention Salisbury then lol
If you don't think it was Russia brazenly attempting to murder people in the UK then you must have believed what JC said.
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"For my part, if this is now clear Labour policy, they have my vote on Thursday"
Well your a wiser man than the rest of the country Billy because depending who is speaking,what time of day it is or which side the coin flips etc etc it seems to change everyday and nobody understands just what the official Policy is...
On Thursday the Brexit party will stroll these elections with a landslide sadly,that will no doubt be the fault of Farage conning the people and the Russians money etc etc etc which is absolute rubbish..
The Tory's were never in this election and this was Labours chance to arrest the general opinion that they are as useless if not as worse as the Tory's.
They've only managed to prove that to be true.Farage will win because whether you agree with his views or not.His position on Europe is crystal clear and people relate to it..I wont bother voting this election.For the first time in my lifetime I'm politically neutral and cant find a reason or party worth putting a cross in a box for...
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''Farage conning the people and the Russians money etc etc etc which is absolute rubbish..''
The money came from somewhere WC and Farage told us all he was broke, pity we'll only find out after the election
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No wonder they daren't publish a manifesto!
https://medium.com/@SJHolloway/this-is-everything-i-discovered-about-all-of-the-brexit-party-mep-candidates-2a59f8f850c5
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People who want brexit would vote brexit party even if Farage was not in charge and at the minute he is not facing any criminal charges so all this talk is pointless
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People who want brexit would vote brexit party even if Farage was not in charge and at the minute he is not facing any criminal charges so all this talk is pointless
Right on BP
''Many candidates manage huge businesses and have been vocal about how fed up they are with annoying things like the EU telling them that their food produce needs to be safe to consume, or that they need to pay their employees sick leave''
Sick leave may be handy for a lot of people when we start importing ''food'' from the US.
''The list of candidates appears quite diverse, though this illustrates striking contradictions. For example, one candidate describes themselves as an environmentalist, yet holds hands with numerous climate change deniers and fossil fuel advocates. Some are gay, yet stand alongside repugnant, vocal homophobes. Some are European migrants, yet stand with candidates who relentlessly write bile about Romanians and the Polish. Some are anti-IRA campaigners, yet are bedfellows with unrepentant supporters of IRA bombers''
What! liars just like Farage and Banks?
FMD, thanks Glyn for posting this, BP remember when you challenged me about my reputation a few days ago, if you vote for Farage and his ilk you will be effectively consorting with the dregs of society, not the poor or the homeless who once were referred to that way but manipulative, deceptive and self interested, did you open and read the link?
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Here's a thing.
How many Crusaders Against The Elite do you know who hold fundraising tea parties at The Ritz?
https://www.buzzfeed.com/alexwickham/farage-ritz-tea-party
No? Me neither.
You're being had lads. You're being had and it seems you've been stripped of your self-respect because you don't even care that you're being had. Pitiful to watch.
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Meanwhile, on the other side...
https://mobile.twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1130900865995485184
Still, I'm sure this is all b*llocks. St Jeremy the Infallible could not possibly be making the wrong call. It's against the Laws of the Universe.
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Compare and contrast.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1130761346667155456
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D5XTiI1e-wVc&ved=2ahUKEwiR4MWn567iAhWbThUIHVSwCd4QwqsBMAB6BAgEEAU&usg=AOvVaw3XuzFcOIXxHtpvoNzEECBW
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D7THhEVffiJo&ved=2ahUKEwj874Ko5q7iAhUF5uAKHb2oBbc4ChCjtAEwAnoECAEQBw&usg=AOvVaw1hj4Uq4S05krVeaQNeaNa5
Some men either make light of this sort of thing and crack on.
Some men chin the t**t who did it.
Some men get huddled away into a taxi, fulminating that their security detail is "A complete failure. Could have seen that coming a mile off", then go on their own radio show to rant about how this shows that the Remain side despises democracy.
Take your pick of the sort of man you want to be.
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People will take their pick, with the hope it won't get overruled.
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Compare and contrast.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JamesMelville/status/1130761346667155456
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D5XTiI1e-wVc&ved=2ahUKEwiR4MWn567iAhWbThUIHVSwCd4QwqsBMAB6BAgEEAU&usg=AOvVaw3XuzFcOIXxHtpvoNzEECBW
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D7THhEVffiJo&ved=2ahUKEwj874Ko5q7iAhUF5uAKHb2oBbc4ChCjtAEwAnoECAEQBw&usg=AOvVaw1hj4Uq4S05krVeaQNeaNa5
Some men either make light of this sort of thing and crack on.
Some men chin the t**t who did it.
Some men get huddled away into a taxi, fulminating that their security detail is "A complete failure. Could have seen that coming a mile off", then go on their own radio show to rant about how this shows that the Remain side despises democracy.
Take your pick of the sort of man you want to be.
Farage has said that it's the Remain said who have radicalised politics leading to the throwing of milkshakes, but I dimly recall someone saying they'd don khaki, pick up a rifle and head to the front lines if Brexit wasn't delivered. Do you remember who it was by any chance?
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If I see any sandal wearing, middle class, pc, remoaners when I go to vote tomorrow I will give them some shit.
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If I see any sandal wearing, middle class, pc, remoaners when I go to vote tomorrow I will give them some shit.
Middle class vote Brexit don't they? Look at Farage.
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Careful AL.
You'll have folk on your back for unpleasant stereotyping of people.
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Meanwhile, on the other side...
https://mobile.twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1130900865995485184
Still, I'm sure this is all b*llocks. St Jeremy the Infallible could not possibly be making the wrong call. It's against the Laws of the Universe.
Billy, I've asked you this before; you don't rate Corbyn, Blair, Benn, Skinner, May, Johnson, Ress-Mogg, Farage.
Just who the f*ck do you rate as a politician?
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And I've told you before. Kier Starter has been bang on the money on this all the way through. Many other MPs too, just not the ones in power or with big gobs and lots of TV exposure.
Going back further, Ed Milliband and Ed Balls were bang on on economic policy back in 2011, but one blinked a lot and one choked on a bacon sarnie so they were ridiculed. Today, John McDonnell is bang on on economic policy. As was Gordon Brown in 2009. There are plenty of MPs who are intelligent and sensible if you look hard enough.
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Meanwhile, on the other side...
https://mobile.twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1130900865995485184
Still, I'm sure this is all b*llocks. St Jeremy the Infallible could not possibly be making the wrong call. It's against the Laws of the Universe.
Did you miss this one? Easily done as it has only just come out and shows Labour with a 10 point GE lead and I know you like to ignore anything positive that goes against your wish to change Labour leader & policy.
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Yes Wilts. I've seen it.
And as I keep saying and you keep ignoring,claiming that a Labour position of about 30% in the current circumstances is a something to celebrate is ridiculous.
Labour are 10 points ahead because the Right is badly split. But the Right can, and will go some way towards healing that split, and then Labour's lead will vanish.
What can Labour do to heal the split on the centre-Left?
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Caroline Lucas is dreamy.
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So it's Polling Day for possibly the most pointless election in my lifetime.
If we end up staying in the EU we will be largely represented by a bunch of Brexit Party MEP's who will constantly try to disrupt proceedings and make a mockery of the European Parliament.
And if we exit the EU then the whole thing will have been a waste of time and money anyway.
Where is the Monster Raving Loony Party when you need 'em?
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terry christian @terrychristian · 38m38 minutes ago
More
Before any leavers vote - any chance you can let us know after almost 3 years - what tangible benefits you expect to gain by leaving the EU. Which part of beong in the EU caused you daily misery ? Any of you ?
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terry christian @terrychristian · 38m38 minutes ago
More
Before any leavers vote - any chance you can let us know after almost 3 years - what tangible benefits you expect to gain by leaving the EU. Which part of beong in the EU caused you daily misery ? Any of you ?
Go and have a walk around Hexthorpe and then come back to me?
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I'm sure all of the fans of democracy in here will be furious about the thousands of EU citizens - some of whom have been here decades - being denied their vote today thanks to admin cock-ups from councils.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/23/eu-citizens-denied-vote-european-election-polling-booths-admin-errors
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Oh No, not another demand for a revote looming.
Time for radical political change, I think.
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I'm sure all of the fans of democracy in here will be furious about the thousands of EU citizens - some of whom have been here decades - being denied their vote today thanks to admin cock-ups from councils.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/23/eu-citizens-denied-vote-european-election-polling-booths-admin-errors
I don't give a monkeys that some foreigners can't cast their remain vote in our country.
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I'm sure all of the fans of democracy in here will be furious about the thousands of EU citizens - some of whom have been here decades - being denied their vote today thanks to admin cock-ups from councils.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/23/eu-citizens-denied-vote-european-election-polling-booths-admin-errors
I don't give a monkeys that some foreigners can't cast their remain vote in our country.
And here I was thinking that you believed in democracy. Well, you live and learn.
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Hexthorpe ?
Hexthorpe's problems have nothing to do with the EU ,
and Hexthorpe will soon look even worse if we are stupid enough to leave the EU
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Hexthorpe ?
Hexthorpe's problems have nothing to do with the EU ,
and Hexthorpe will soon look even worse if we are stupid enough to leave the EU
Hexthorpe's problems are EVERYTHING to do with the EU and you all know it.
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I'm sure all of the fans of democracy in here will be furious about the thousands of EU citizens - some of whom have been here decades - being denied their vote today thanks to admin cock-ups from councils.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/23/eu-citizens-denied-vote-european-election-polling-booths-admin-errors
I don't give a monkeys that some foreigners can't cast their remain vote in our country.
And here I was thinking that you believed in democracy. Well, you live and learn.
I'm sure all of the fans of democracy in here will be furious about the thousands of EU citizens - some of whom have been here decades - being denied their vote today thanks to admin cock-ups from councils.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/23/eu-citizens-denied-vote-european-election-polling-booths-admin-errors
I don't give a monkeys that some foreigners can't cast their remain vote in our country.
And here I was thinking that you believed in democracy. Well, you live and learn.
Most of us live and learn NNK. I've yet to see my h evidence that AL does.
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So it's Polling Day for possibly the most pointless election in my lifetime.
If we end up staying in the EU we will be largely represented by a bunch of Brexit Party MEP's who will constantly try to disrupt proceedings and make a mockery of the European Parliament.
And if we exit the EU then the whole thing will have been a waste of time and money anyway.
Where is the Monster Raving Loony Party when you need 'em?
Pancho, the only reason we're having this election is because Parliament has failed to deliver the mandate they were given by the people, that they promised to honour.
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terry christian @terrychristian · 38m38 minutes ago
More
Before any leavers vote - any chance you can let us know after almost 3 years - what tangible benefits you expect to gain by leaving the EU. Which part of beong in the EU caused you daily misery ? Any of you ?
If that's the Terry Christian that used to be on Channel 4 then all I can say is that anyone who hangs on to the words of a f*cking half-wit like him must be just as daft.
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Terry Christian: "what tangible benefits you expect to gain by leaving the EU"?
It might persuade you to f**k off and live abroad with a bit of luck.
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SS.
Yes. And as we wearily keep on pointing out, that is because the 2016 vote to "leave" wasn't a vote for a specific thing. It was a vote for a vague concept.
And when people have then tried to nail down something specific from that vague concept, they've found that it is like knitting Vaseline. And that there is no majority in the country or in Parliament for any specific form of Brexit.
Which is why a grown up country wold say: Right. Now we know a lot more about what the different possible types of Brexit are. Let's put the decision back to the Public with a choice of Remain, Norway Plus type Brexit, May Deal type Brexit, No Deal, with a Single Transferable Vote so that in each round the choice with the least support is eliminated and the second choices redistributed.
But apparently that would be an undemocractic outrage and an insult to 17.4m honest Brits (although actuaries tell us it's likley that at least 1m of them have already died, but there you go - presumably we need to honour their memories.)
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Nice to see the ones who lecture us regularly on how unpleasant the Remainers are, refusing to take the bait of acting like hypocrites.
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It's more than the 17.4 million honest Brits who are outraged, Billy lad, some of those who voted remain, like me, are honest enough to be outraged also.
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But surely you'd realise that maybe giving the Tories the control that you're taking from Europe isn't the best idea based on how they've handled leaving?
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I think most other remainers are outraged, too, BB. I think the sticking point for most is to do with foreign money being illegally funneled into British politics by far-right spivs harvesting our personal data (also illegally). I wouldn't say some remainers being a bit rude sometimes - after 3 years of being called sheep, liberal elite, middle class traitors who should be hanged, etc - compares to that, but different strokes and all that.
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But surely you'd realise that maybe giving the Tories the control that you're taking from Europe isn't the best idea based on how they've handled leaving?
Neither of the two major parties would be my choice. Maybe they won't be the country's choice either in the not too distant future.
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It's more than the 17.4 million honest Brits who are outraged, Billy lad, some of those who voted remain, like me, are honest enough to be outraged also.
BB. The polls indicate that for every one of you, there are a couple or three folk who voted Leave but have been equally outraged by they way in which they were misled. So if you want to play the numbers game like that, you're on thin ice.
Mind, I accept that if the 17.4m who voted Leave are ALL outraged, they must be REALLY outraged, given that a million of them are no longer with us.
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I don't blame them for being outraged, I can empathise with them, but that doesn't mean they would now vote remain.
I can honestly say I've been very smart, even by my standards, by voting Remain. I feel great in the knowledge that I'm gonna live forever, simply because I put my cross in the remain box!
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It's more than the 17.4 million honest Brits who are outraged, Billy lad, some of those who voted remain, like me, are honest enough to be outraged also.
BB. The polls indicate that for every one of you, there are a couple or three folk who voted Leave but have been equally outraged by they way in which they were misled. So if you want to play the numbers game like that, you're on thin ice.
Mind, I accept that if the 17.4m who voted Leave are ALL outraged, they must be REALLY outraged, given that a million of them are no longer with us.
In the interests of fairness BST, isn't it likely that marginally under a million of people who voted remain have also died since the vote ?
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Polish bloke in the flats opposite me has got 3 Brexit Party photos in the window. Luckily the arrows are pointing the opposite way to the Polling Station.
Should i go ask him to take them down what with him being foreign and interfering in a British election?
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Mike Harding #FBPE @HardingMike · 8h8 hours ago
More
3 yrs ago -17.4 mill voted Leave 16.1 mill voted Remain. The 16 mill have been abused, called "remoaners and traitors, queue jumpers and citizens of nowhere." The BBC have largely ignored them and the Tory Press have vilified them. The 17.4 mill are in meltdown. Stay strong.
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Mike Harding #FBPE @HardingMike · 8h8 hours ago
More
3 yrs ago -17.4 mill voted Leave 16.1 mill voted Remain. The 16 mill have been abused, called "remoaners and traitors, queue jumpers and citizens of nowhere." The BBC have largely ignored them and the Tory Press have vilified them. The 17.4 mill are in meltdown. Stay strong.
Yes, but to be fair Mike Harding is from Lancashire which sort of negates the relevance.
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I think most other remainers are outraged, too, BB. I think the sticking point for most is to do with foreign money being illegally funneled into British politics by far-right spivs harvesting our personal data (also illegally). I wouldn't say some remainers being a bit rude sometimes - after 3 years of being called sheep, liberal elite, middle class traitors who should be hanged, etc - compares to that, but different strokes and all that.
Very annoying watching something happen which all predictions point to us as a country being poorer and us as a region being even poorer. I don't want to see that. I also don't want to see Farage's mates make millions from shorting the pound while we all become poorer.
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A mate of mine once said he was gonna buy me one of those folk guitarist/comedy song albums that were popular in the 70s.
He said: "when I went to pay for it I couldn't get my card in".
"Thank f**k for that' I said. "Did you get me Jasper Carrott instead"?
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It's more than the 17.4 million honest Brits who are outraged, Billy lad, some of those who voted remain, like me, are honest enough to be outraged also.
BB. The polls indicate that for every one of you, there are a couple or three folk who voted Leave but have been equally outraged by they way in which they were misled. So if you want to play the numbers game like that, you're on thin ice.
Mind, I accept that if the 17.4m who voted Leave are ALL outraged, they must be REALLY outraged, given that a million of them are no longer with us.
In the interests of fairness BST, isn't it likely that marginally under a million of people who voted remain have also died since the vote ?
Actually no. The point is that the Leave voters were disproportionately represented by the older voters.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/15372/production/_90089868_eu_ref_uk_regions_leave_remain_gra624_by_age.png)
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So it's Polling Day for possibly the most pointless election in my lifetime.
If we end up staying in the EU we will be largely represented by a bunch of Brexit Party MEP's who will constantly try to disrupt proceedings and make a mockery of the European Parliament.
And if we exit the EU then the whole thing will have been a waste of time and money anyway.
Where is the Monster Raving Loony Party when you need 'em?
Pancho, the only reason we're having this election is because Parliament has failed to deliver the mandate they were given by the people, that they promised to honour.
Parliament was not given a mandate by the people. Parliament simply responded to a non-binding referendum. That is not a mandate, it's not even the will of the people, it's not even a majority of the people who live on these sceptred isles; it's simply a desire to leave the EU by 17.4 million people who didn't have a united view of what kind of leave they were actually voting for, and don't have a united view of what kind of leave they want even now!
That the referendum offered a binary choice with no detail whatsoever as to what leave meant was stupid in the first place; those who fail to see that, see the damage that it has already caused the country, and see the damage that will continue to be caused when we leave are even dafter.
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So it's Polling Day for possibly the most pointless election in my lifetime.
If we end up staying in the EU we will be largely represented by a bunch of Brexit Party MEP's who will constantly try to disrupt proceedings and make a mockery of the European Parliament.
And if we exit the EU then the whole thing will have been a waste of time and money anyway.
Where is the Monster Raving Loony Party when you need 'em?
Pancho, the only reason we're having this election is because Parliament has failed to deliver the mandate they were given by the people, that they promised to honour.
Parliament was not given a mandate by the people. Parliament simply responded to a non-binding referendum. That is not a mandate, it's not even the will of the people, it's not even a majority of the people who live on these sceptred isles; it's simply a desire to leave the EU by 17.4 million people who didn't have a united view of what kind of leave they were actually voting for, and don't have a united view of what kind of leave they want even now!
That the referendum offered a binary choice with no detail whatsoever as to what leave meant was stupid in the first place; those who fail to see that, see the damage that it has already caused the country, and see the damage that will continue to be caused when we leave are even dafter.
Would you have said all this if Remain had won?
No, I thought not.
What is it about you lot that reminds me of Peterborough supporters?
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SS
For the 20th time.
Remain was a Thing. If we'd voted Remain that would have been a vote for a Thing. Clear and simple.
The vote for Leave was a vote for an undefined concept. It needed the detail fleshing out afterwards. It's now clear that there is no defined Leave Thing that commands a majority in the country or in Parliament. That's why we're in such a mess now.
Before you complain that this is just a Remoaner moaning (not that you would, because that would be insulting and you are better than that) and that all the Leave voters knew what they were voting for, don't listen to me. Listen to what Farage campaigned for in 2016 (Norway deal) and what he says now (that a Norway deal would be a betrayal). Listen to the Leave campaigners who said that leaving the Single Market would be insane in 2016 and are now saying that staying in the SM wouldn't be Brexit.
It's perverse to argue against those facts, but something tells me you will.
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So it's Polling Day for possibly the most pointless election in my lifetime.
If we end up staying in the EU we will be largely represented by a bunch of Brexit Party MEP's who will constantly try to disrupt proceedings and make a mockery of the European Parliament.
And if we exit the EU then the whole thing will have been a waste of time and money anyway.
Where is the Monster Raving Loony Party when you need 'em?
Pancho, the only reason we're having this election is because Parliament has failed to deliver the mandate they were given by the people, that they promised to honour.
Parliament was not given a mandate by the people. Parliament simply responded to a non-binding referendum. That is not a mandate, it's not even the will of the people, it's not even a majority of the people who live on these sceptred isles; it's simply a desire to leave the EU by 17.4 million people who didn't have a united view of what kind of leave they were actually voting for, and don't have a united view of what kind of leave they want even now!
That the referendum offered a binary choice with no detail whatsoever as to what leave meant was stupid in the first place; those who fail to see that, see the damage that it has already caused the country, and see the damage that will continue to be caused when we leave are even dafter.
Would you have said all this if Remain had won?
No, I thought not.
What is it about you lot that reminds me of Peterborough supporters?
Did you understand what I wrote in my post SS?
No, I thought not.
What is it about Brexiters that reminds me of Leeds supporters?
Oh, and care to tell us which version of leave you thought you were voting for, and what you thought the implications of that version of leave would have for the country?
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Surely it is Remainers who are like L**ds supporters, with their claims of losing unfairly in Europe?
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Surely it is Remainers who are like L**ds supporters, with their claims of losing unfairly in Europe?
Nah, we're not all fat, middle aged, bald and racist x
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Surely it is Remainers who are like L**ds supporters, with their claims of losing unfairly in Europe?
Nah, we're not all far, middle aged, bald and racist x
No. And I'm not racist either.
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Surely it is Remainers who are like L**ds supporters, with their claims of losing unfairly in Europe?
If the remainiacs had won the referendum it would have all been forgotten about by now.
BAD LOSERS.
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It's more than the 17.4 million honest Brits who are outraged, Billy lad, some of those who voted remain, like me, are honest enough to be outraged also.
BB. The polls indicate that for every one of you, there are a couple or three folk who voted Leave but have been equally outraged by they way in which they were misled. So if you want to play the numbers game like that, you're on thin ice.
Mind, I accept that if the 17.4m who voted Leave are ALL outraged, they must be REALLY outraged, given that a million of them are no longer with us.
In the interests of fairness BST, isn't it likely that marginally under a million of people who voted remain have also died since the vote ?
Actually no. The point is that the Leave voters were disproportionately represented by the older voters.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/15372/production/_90089868_eu_ref_uk_regions_leave_remain_gra624_by_age.png)
Proves what I thought that most of the young are thick.
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Careful AL, I'm sure Scawsby will be on your case about repugnant ageism in a minute.
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Surely it is Remainers who are like L**ds supporters, with their claims of losing unfairly in Europe?
If the remainiacs had won the referendum it would have all been forgotten about by now.
BAD LOSERS.
What, UKIP would have given up and gone home would they? :silly:
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Surely it is Remainers who are like L**ds supporters, with their claims of losing unfairly in Europe?
If the remainiacs had won the referendum it would have all been forgotten about by now.
BAD LOSERS.
What, UKIP would have given up and gone home would they? :silly:
Maybe they would have accepted defeat with good grace and not threw all their toys out of the cot like a bunch of spoilt brats?
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Fascinating poll out today (no not the Survation one that shows Labour on a 5% lead with 33% of the vote) but the Opinium one.
Labour - 26%
Brexit P - 22%
Cons - 22%
LD - 12%
12% of the vote would get the Lib Dems 34 seats. 22% of the vote would get the Brexit Party 4 seats.
Dont get too excited about a revolution in British politics just yet.
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1131881294349131776
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Fascinating poll out today (no not the Survation one that shows Labour on a 5% lead with 33% of the vote) but the Opinium one.
Labour - 26%
Brexit P - 22%
Cons - 22%
LD - 12%
12% of the vote would get the Lib Dems 34 seats. 22% of the vote would get the Brexit Party 4 seats.
Dont get too excited about a revolution in British politics just yet.
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1131881294349131776
the polls could all change when the tories get a new leader I can’t see them polling any lower than they would now
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Fascinating poll out today (no not the Survation one that shows Labour on a 5% lead with 33% of the vote) but the Opinium one.
Labour - 26%
Brexit P - 22%
Cons - 22%
LD - 12%
12% of the vote would get the Lib Dems 34 seats. 22% of the vote would get the Brexit Party 4 seats.
Dont get too excited about a revolution in British politics just yet.
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1131881294349131776
the polls could all change when the tories get a new leader I can’t see them polling any lower than they would now
If the tories get a hard Brexit leader they will win the next GE.
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Fascinating poll out today (no not the Survation one that shows Labour on a 5% lead with 33% of the vote) but the Opinium one.
Labour - 26%
Brexit P - 22%
Cons - 22%
LD - 12%
12% of the vote would get the Lib Dems 34 seats. 22% of the vote would get the Brexit Party 4 seats.
Dont get too excited about a revolution in British politics just yet.
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1131881294349131776
the polls could all change when the tories get a new leader I can’t see them polling any lower than they would now
If the tories get a hard Brexit leader they will win the next GE.
Lets hope we get to test that theory in the next couple of months...
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Surely it is Remainers who are like L**ds supporters, with their claims of losing unfairly in Europe?
If the remainiacs had won the referendum it would have all been forgotten about by now.
BAD LOSERS.
What, UKIP would have given up and gone home would they? :silly:
Maybe they would have accepted defeat with good grace and not threw all their toys out of the cot like a bunch of spoilt brats?
Farage said they wouldn't accept defeat, so that theory is shot in flames for starters. And they've acted like a bunch of spoilt brats when they've won, Christ knows what they'd have been like if they'd lost.
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Surely it is Remainers who are like L**ds supporters, with their claims of losing unfairly in Europe?
If the remainiacs had won the referendum it would have all been forgotten about by now.
BAD LOSERS.
What, UKIP would have given up and gone home would they? :silly:
Maybe they would have accepted defeat with good grace and not threw all their toys out of the cot like a bunch of spoilt brats?
Farage said they wouldn't accept defeat, so that theory is shot in flames for starters. And they've acted like a bunch of spoilt brats when they've won, Christ knows what they'd have been like if they'd lost.
Pot and kettle?
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If the Tories go Hard Brexit, Labour will have to go Ref2. That'll put Labour up to 40%.
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Careful AL, I'm sure Scawsby will be on your case about repugnant ageism in a minute.
No Macho, I'll have to hold my hand up on this one; I f*cking hate rap music.
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Surely it is Remainers who are like L**ds supporters, with their claims of losing unfairly in Europe?
If the remainiacs had won the referendum it would have all been forgotten about by now.
BAD LOSERS.
What, UKIP would have given up and gone home would they? :silly:
Maybe they would have accepted defeat with good grace and not threw all their toys out of the cot like a bunch of spoilt brats?
Farage said they wouldn't accept defeat, so that theory is shot in flames for starters. And they've acted like a bunch of spoilt brats when they've won, Christ knows what they'd have been like if they'd lost.
Farage would have continued to fight for what he believes in, like all politicians worth their salt would. He wouln't have had the power to stop a losing result, because, with the result of remain being the default position, life would have continued as normal.
Had he been able to stop the result being carried out, and demanded a revote as the sore Remoaners have, he would have been just as undemocratic as they are being, and those who supported him should be equally ashamed of themselves as you should be.
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A few figures now coming in on what the turnout was yesterday. The turnout in the 2017 GE was 70%.
Nowhere has yet reported a turnout of 50% - in some places it is lower than 30%. On average where it has increased (from 2014) this is only by 4-5%. These areas are mostly Remain areas.
So my conclusion based on this incomplete data is that 25% of people who are likely to vote in a GE do not feel strongly about Brexit to vote for either a hardline Brexit or hardline Remain party - or they would have done so yesterday.
https://twitter.com/britainelects/status/1131894704453427202
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Nap
https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/brexit/brexit-and-babies
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Surely it is Remainers who are like L**ds supporters, with their claims of losing unfairly in Europe?
If the remainiacs had won the referendum it would have all been forgotten about by now.
BAD LOSERS.
What, UKIP would have given up and gone home would they? :silly:
Maybe they would have accepted defeat with good grace and not threw all their toys out of the cot like a bunch of spoilt brats?
Farage said they wouldn't accept defeat, so that theory is shot in flames for starters. And they've acted like a bunch of spoilt brats when they've won, Christ knows what they'd have been like if they'd lost.
Farage would have continued to fight for what he believes in, like all politicians worth their salt would. He wouln't have had the power to stop a losing result, because, with the result of remain being the default position, life would have continued as normal.
Had he been able to stop the result being carried out, and demanded a revote as the sore Remoaners have, he would have been just as undemocratic as they are being, and those who supported him should be equally ashamed of themselves as you should be.
It's impossible isn't it? Never any engagement with the argument.
For the umpteenth time, the argument is NOT that the 2016 referendum decision was wrong.
It is.
1) That the 2016 decision was inconclusive because Leave was never a thing. And as has become crystal clear, there isn't a majority for any specific form of Leave. So we are deadlocked. And as I keep saying, pretty much every day, it's not ME raising this. Farage himself campaigned for a Norway type deal. And now says a Norway deal would be a betrayal of the 17.4m (sic). Address that point if you want to deal with this like a grown up, rather than a petulant, embarrassing child.
2) Regardless of that, the Leave campaign peddled demonstrable lies, funded illegally. In normal times, the illegal funding on the scale it happened would always render an election invalid.
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BST. My comment was directly engaged with Mr Wiggerley's argument. If you have got something to say about that then I suggest you do, instead of changing the subject.
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If the Tories go Hard Brexit, Labour will have to go Ref2. That'll put Labour up to 40%.
I agree but I am mystified why they haven't already. I suppose when the EU Election results come in they might put an end to Corbyn's tightrope walking act.
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BST. My comment was directly engaged with Mr Wiggerley's argument. If you have got something to say about that then I suggest you do, instead of changing the subject.
Had he been able to stop the result being carried out, and demanded a revote as the sore Remoaners have, he would have been just as undemocratic as they are being, and those who supported him should be equally ashamed of themselves as you should be.
You're embarrassing yourself BB and I don't understand why you have this urge to do so. You're a lot smarter than that, but you're acting in a really daft manner. It's very dispiriting.
Disagree by all means, but disagree based on facts not this idiocy.
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You're the one who should be embarrassed. Why you insist on defending the indefensible is beyond me. It certainly doesn't do you any favours.
My response to Mr Wiggerley was spot on to the subject.
Now, either stick up for him and try to bail him out as per, by all means, but stick to the f**king subject.
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BST. My comment was directly engaged with Mr Wiggerley's argument. If you have got something to say about that then I suggest you do, instead of changing the subject.
Mr Bullsh@ttery?
Did you have the sniffles and a note from your mum when St Pete's did debating?
It's not about inane questions you know?
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f**king hell, Thrush is back.
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BB
Genuinely. I think you need a break from this.
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I think there's a lot more than me who need a break from listening to sour-faced losers day after day after day etc. Especially when they change the subject instead of replying to posts directly.
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f**king hell, Thrush is back.
Have you tried talking to somebody about your issues? Not me,I had to listen to that shite in West End club bay Horse etc years ago. I gave up on you. I'm not a professional.
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Sorry, I only remember people of a certain level of significance. However, I do remember all boozers I've been in, and The West End Club ain't one of them.
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You've not changed lad.
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Sorry, I only remember people of a certain level of significance. However, I do remember all boozers I've been in, and The West End Club ain't one of them.
That's probably an age thing. I remember clearly.
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f**king hell, I've got a psycho analyzing me, and I'm not who he thinks I am! Freaky or what!
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No, Dave,as the expression goes,once a knobhead,always..
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Yep, you got me, I'm Dave, but I don't associate with numpties.
.....Well, not unless I'm on here like!
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Fascinating poll out today (no not the Survation one that shows Labour on a 5% lead with 33% of the vote) but the Opinium one.
Labour - 26%
Brexit P - 22%
Cons - 22%
LD - 12%
12% of the vote would get the Lib Dems 34 seats. 22% of the vote would get the Brexit Party 4 seats.
Dont get too excited about a revolution in British politics just yet.
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1131881294349131776
the polls could all change when the tories get a new leader I can’t see them polling any lower than they would now
If the tories get a hard Brexit leader they will win the next GE.
Fascinating poll out today (no not the Survation one that shows Labour on a 5% lead with 33% of the vote) but the Opinium one.
Labour - 26%
Brexit P - 22%
Cons - 22%
LD - 12%
12% of the vote would get the Lib Dems 34 seats. 22% of the vote would get the Brexit Party 4 seats.
Dont get too excited about a revolution in British politics just yet.
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1131881294349131776
the polls could all change when the tories get a new leader I can’t see them polling any lower than they would now
If the tories get a hard Brexit leader they will win the next GE.
Lets hope we get to test that theory in the next couple of months...
Fascinating poll out today (no not the Survation one that shows Labour on a 5% lead with 33% of the vote) but the Opinium one.
Labour - 26%
Brexit P - 22%
Cons - 22%
LD - 12%
12% of the vote would get the Lib Dems 34 seats. 22% of the vote would get the Brexit Party 4 seats.
Dont get too excited about a revolution in British politics just yet.
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1131881294349131776
the polls could all change when the tories get a new leader I can’t see them polling any lower than they would now
If the tories get a hard Brexit leader they will win the next GE.
I think a lot will depend on who is labour leader, if it’s Corbyn then yes I think the tories will win as time after time you hear labour voters saying they will never vote for him, if Corbyn goes and they get a more centre left leader then it might be a different story
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BB complains about people changing the subject and then what does everybody get to see? Reply after reply of BB changing the subject. As per usual.
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Why do all you moaning wrexiters always forget that you and your sad band of lute players have been unable to enable it instead complaining and crying about everyone else?
Always remember that if you had been able to back up what the public were told at the start which turned out to be lies, you may have persuaded more people to join you, in the end remember it's not us that have stopped you is it?
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Surely it is Remainers who are like L**ds supporters, with their claims of losing unfairly in Europe?
If the remainiacs had won the referendum it would have all been forgotten about by now.
BAD LOSERS.
What, UKIP would have given up and gone home would they? :silly:
Maybe they would have accepted defeat with good grace and not threw all their toys out of the cot like a bunch of spoilt brats?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36306681
Just posting this again.
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Farage would have continued to fight for what he believes in, like all politicians worth their salt would. He wouldn't have had the power to stop a losing result, because, with the result of remain being the default position, life would have continued as normal.
Had he been able to stop the result being carried out, and demanded a revote as the sore Remoaners have, he would have been just as undemocratic as they are being, and those who supported him should be equally ashamed of themselves.
Like Prime Minister David Cameron said in RedJ's link, it was a "once in a generation, once in a lifetime" decision, saying the UK had "referendums not Neverendums".
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Farage would have continued to fight for what he believes in
So it's okay to do so, so long as it's the side you like best that they're doing it for?
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Of course it's OK to continue to fight for what you believe in! That's NEVER been the point! The point is if you win the fight it is wrong for those opposed to it to overrule it and stop it from happening!
That's completely different from fighting on for what you believe in!
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God BB this is exhausting, but I'll try again.
What is it that "Remoaners" (grow up) have stopped from happening?
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Why do all you moaning wrexiters always forget that you and your sad band of lute players have been unable to enable it instead complaining and crying about everyone else?
Always remember that if you had been able to back up what the public were told at the start which turned out to be lies, you may have persuaded more people to join you, in the end remember it's not us that have stopped you is it?
The Incredible Stringing People Along Band?
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Well now, THIS wasn't supposed to happen.
https://mobile.twitter.com/PJHeneghan/status/1132242419087491072
The idea was that there's a great dam holding back the millions of frustrated Leavers, and that Nigel was going to lead them to their democratic right.
Turns out there's a direct and very strong correlation between how much each area supported Remain in 2016, and what the turnout was on Thursday.
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God BB this is exhausting, but I'll try again.
What is it that "Remoaners" (grow up) have stopped from happening?
It's not so much what they've done, it's more about what they are trying to do. Some of them are trying to stop Brexit. When challenged about this, the Remoaners claim that they are entitled to demand a revote because Farage said he would have done so under the same circumstances. Strange how suddenly two wrongs make a right! However, the circumstances were completely different.
Farage would have continued to fight for what he believes in, like all politicians worth their salt would. He wouldn't have had the power to stop a losing result, because, with the result of remain being the default position, life would have continued as normal.
Had he been able to stop the result being carried out, and demanded a revote as the sore Remoaners have, he would have been just as undemocratic as they are being, and those who supported him should be equally ashamed of themselves.
Like Prime Minister David Cameron said in RedJ's link, it was a "once in a generation, once in a lifetime" decision, saying the UK had "referendums not Neverendums".
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BB
I usually find it better to look at what people actually do, rather than project what YOU think an idealised version of them would do.
Farage actually said ON THE DAY OF THE VOTE! when the indications were that Remain had won, that he would be demanding a 2nd vote, because of the Govt leaflet.
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God, this is exhausting.
.......Aaaaaaaannnnndddddd, why shouldn't he have wanted another vote? It's not like he had the power to stop the result! We would have remained in the EU and everything would have simply continued the status quo!
And if he had suggested the vote be void in favour of a revote, YOU would have laughed your b*llocks off at him for being such an undemocratic, whinging, right-wing Kitson.
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Right. So off we go again.
Farage didn't have the power to stop the result but would have been within his rights to campaign for another vote.
Remainers do not have the power to stop the result, but are insulted and abused by you for campaigning for another vote.
Got it now. Thanks.
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Paragraph one:
Right.
Paragraph Two:
Wrong. Remainers shouldn't have the power to stop the result and get a revote, but Remoaners, like you, are determined to get one.
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Yeah well. I preferred it when that act of yours satirising idiotic Leave views was a bit more subtle and nuanced. Your standards are slipping. Now it just sounds childish.
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Nay lad, just because you can't offer any sound reasoning as to why you think I'm wrong doesn't make me childish, it just means your standards are slipping.
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......Anyway, I'm off for a pint while there's still beer on the shelves.
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You old enough to get served?
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I wish I had a quid for every time I've been asked that over the years. I never forget my Identity card.
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Just don't crack a joke or they WILL hoy you out.
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God BB this is exhausting, but I'll try again.
What is it that "Remoaners" (grow up) have stopped from happening?
It's not so much what they've done, it's more about what they are trying to do. Some of them are trying to stop Brexit. When challenged about this, the Remoaners claim that they are entitled to demand a revote because Farage said he would have done so under the same circumstances. Strange how suddenly two wrongs make a right! However, the circumstances were completely different.
Farage would have continued to fight for what he believes in, like all politicians worth their salt would. He wouldn't have had the power to stop a losing result, because, with the result of remain being the default position, life would have continued as normal.
Had he been able to stop the result being carried out, and demanded a revote as the sore Remoaners have, he would have been just as undemocratic as they are being, and those who supported him should be equally ashamed of themselves.
Like Prime Minister David Cameron said in RedJ's link, it was a "once in a generation, once in a lifetime" decision, saying the UK had "referendums not Neverendums".
Sounds like on your journey to claim the high moral ground BB you've found yourself in the sewage farm, according to you we all have to sit around, play nicely, accept the particular vote wrexiteers want us to and swallow any amount of lies and crap you all care to make and cheer you along with words of encouragement, tally ho, jolly good, that was an excellent rejoinder my man, spiffing argument. What's that stuck on your shoes?
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(https://media.giphy.com/media/z9AUvhAEiXOqA/giphy.gif)
This is BB.
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https://youtu.be/F-mmlrKBP8Y
This is DO.