Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: Nudga on April 25, 2020, 05:59:29 pm
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Evening all. So we have the main thread about the corona virus, I've got absolutely no problem with that whatsoever.
I am an advocate of freedom of speech, your right to express your views and opinions.
I wanted to open up another thread to share an alternative view with reports and video clips from independent doctors and journalists etc.
A lot of people will call me a conspiracy theorist and a tin foil loco madman.
That's too easy, and lazy.
I question everything, I don't believe everything I see or read from MSM outlets, I don't believe what I hear from this government.
One big reason why I think something isn't right is the fact that a lot of the alternative information is being binned from the Internet.
Facebook, twitter, YouTube are taking down various clips and sensoring stories and people from the platform.
I just see a modern day propaganda machine in full flow.
I've already shared a few bits and pieces on the main topic which is being ignored.
That's fine, no problem but there might be others who would like to see a different side?
I don't believe every alternative news or piece I see either. Other sides have agendas too.
What I do see is too many coincidences and I believe we're heading for a very different future.
Some might see me as being dangerous and putting other people's lives at risk but I am following the social distancing guidelines etc out of courtesy for other people.
I'm not that bothered if I'm going to look stupid, after all, I only know a few of you on here and like I said, I don't believe all of the things I see but I've noticed a few regular posters aren't contributing anything.
Is this because they are afraid of offering their different opinions and made to look stupid by others?
There's probably going to be a lot of tumbleweed rolling through this thread but Ne mind, I'm a big boy.
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If it involves bleach or 5G phone masts I wouldn't bother. If it something interesting that has not been mentioned previously I am sure we would all be up for that.
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Nope, neither of those. I try to sift through the proper shite.
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One big reason why I think something isn't right is the fact that a lot of the alternative information is being binned from the Internet.
Facebook, twitter, YouTube are taking down various clips and sensoring stories and people from the platform.
I just see a modern day propaganda machine in full flow.
There are industrial level operations in Russia and China pumping out disinformation on the internet. Shit, western governments are even dabling in it from time to time. That's your conspiracy right there. Not the drop in the ocean attempts to remove it.
I posted this link (https://covid19obs.fbk.eu/) a few days back. 42% of all info concerning covid-19 is posted by bots/automated. 30% is untrustworthy. Just think about that, there's literally billions of pieces of information floating out there that are bullshit verging on dangeours.
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CiM
There's the problem.
The FSB has it as an aim to undermine the stability of Western democracies by destroying our ability to tell truth from lies. There was an ex-FSB officer interviewed by the BBC not long ago. He said their intention was to destroy our ability to have rational democracy. And that there wasn't a damn thing we could do to protect ourselves from it.
They will be in overdrive pumping out credible bullshit on this topic.
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Nudga,
Thanks for starting this thread. An interesting alternative to following the daily figures (which are appalling and make me want to weep).
So, in the spirit of what you started, I want to offer some random thoughts. I expect them to be shot down but, hey, if it stimulates open debate I'd be happy.
Is covid the tuberculosis of our times? Not literally, I know, as, medically, it's different - one bacterial, one viral - but, in terms of impact.
In 2018, 1.5 million people died of TB; one quarter of the world was thought to be infected with it. So it's still a bigger (much bigger) killer than Covid. Even though it's treatable apparently. Every year, nearly half a million new cases of multidrug-resistant tuberculosis occur across the globe.
TB seems like a relic of a bygone era - a little over 100 years ago there were over 100,000 deaths annually in the UK - last year 5000 people got TB here.
TB mainly afflicts deprived communities. Will covid follow a similar trajectory? Already, there are signs it hits deprived communities disproportionately. Similar risk factors too e.g. a weakened immune system.
I live on the site of an old TB hospital that was built over a hundred years ago. It had open air wards. Does the future see specialist covid hospitals or covid wards as we try and compartmentalise it out of our day to day lives and hospitals?
For TB, a vaccine took 15 years to come through. Thousands died each year in the meantime.
Is this what the future holds? Improving medical knowledge, specialist treatment and a gradually diminishing impact on our every day lives as we learn to live with it?
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Possibly a good idea to start here. Pasteur vs Bechamp on germ theory.
http://maronewellness.com/pasteur-vs-bechamp-an-alternative-view-of-infectious-disease/
Obviously Pasteur won the day and Bechamp is resigned to the history books.
Vaccines, medicine, it all costs money and someone always benefits from making money.
Now, I'd never heard of Bechamp until around two years ago.
My old school friend was very, very poorly. Doctors couldn't find what was up with her, but still pumped her full of drugs anyway, she lost a dangerous amount of weight and she was very scared of the possibility of death at a young age leaving kids behind.
She looked into alternative medicine /healing and found a lady who said she could help.
She worked on the good bacteria that lives in the gut and changed my friends diet that de-toxifies the gut and also helps the good bacteria.
She also suggested more sunlight and walks and yoga. Simple eh.
My friend had a very good career that took her around the world so she was couped up in offices, trains and aeroplanes.
I recently saw my old school friend and she looked amazing, really healthy, more meat on her bones and she said that she felt great and her problems were gradually dissipating.
Now, I don't know enough about medical science to go one way or the other with this. Maybe both ideas can work hand in hand, maybe they do already?
So this takes me down to the vaccination argument.
In October 2019, The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, John's Hopkins School and The World Economic Forum held the 201 event in New York.
https://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/event201/
A pandemic exercise which " would require reliable cooperation among several industries, national governments, and key international institutions."
A few weeks down the road and China gets the first outbreak of Covid 19.
And now we have Bill Gates at the forefront of testing/vaccinations
https://multipolar-magazin.de/artikel/the-gates-foundations-vaccination-activism
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Nudga.
Come away from the specific and look at the big picture.
Following the Pasteur approach, we have eliminated Smallpox, and canned TB, Measles and a whole swathe of other deadly diseases.
Do you REALLY want to live in a world where we ignore that and out our trust in quack cures with zero scientific validity?
But if you want to do specific cases, I'll give you a very personal take.
When my father in law was diagnosed with lung cancer, he, in desperation, visited a German "alternative therapist" who had a glossy internet page full of examples of people he'd cured from cancer, through injecting them with huge doses of Vitamin C. My father in law paid him over €3000 for treatment. It did nothing to help him of course because it was a quack treatment by a fraudster, posing as a saviour to desperate people.
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BST, I'm sorry to hear that about your father in law. Yes there are unscrupulous people about making money out of other people's misfortune.
I have also lost family members to cancer, four in fact.
Three of those had radiotherapy, the initial cancer was nuked away so to speak. 6 months later they died with aggressive brain tumours.
We could talk about the benefits of CBD and turmeric curcumin.
One of my clients wife has got cancer, she's had it for about 5 years.
The chemotherapy slowed the cancer down but the cancer cells numbers were still high (apologies on this part, I'm not sure what they measure, red cells, white cells? I can't remember what he told me)
Out of desperation, he bought some CBD last year , a few drops under the tongue every day. These numbers they measure the cancer with have started to drop, I think they were around 60 and now they are around the 40 mark.
Her consultant doesn't know about the CBD and was apparently stackered by the drop in the numbers.
Oh and zero scientific validity, do you not think that doctors of medical science are not struck off if they don't follow company policy (think Big Pharma)
Tony Fauci had Dr Judy A Mikovits struck off and ruined her career.
https://twitter.com/DrJudyAMikovits/status/1253880609564512256?s=19
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World Centres like London,Paris,Berlin,Tokyo New York in Lock down, yet Beijing and Shanghai untouched
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And Seoul. And Taipei. And Hong Kong. They have all had low death totals.
Because they were prepared for this by the experience of SARS and they kicked into action far faster than we did.
In terms of reported deaths in the early stages, China was about 35 days ahead of Italy. But they locked down 46 days ahead of Italy. That 11 days is crucial. It gave them the ability to suppress the spread.
Germany similarly locked down ahead of us and Italy in their epidemic timescale. They have had a similarly successful outcome. Sobi don't know why you included Berlin in your list of badly hit cities. They have only had 123 deaths.
And I don't now what you mean about Beijing and Shanghai being "untouched". They both had extensive lock downs.
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Berlin was on the news today Billy folks protesting about the lock down.
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I don't have a clue what you are on about Sproty.
Yes. Berlin had a lockdown.
Like Shanghai did. And Beijing.
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https://factcheck.afp.com/false-claim-beijing-and-shanghai-are-untouched-covid-19
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https://www.armstrongeconomics.com/international-news/disease/contamination-corruption-of-government/
Dr Judy A Mikovits.
Turn off the TV and read more books.
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I don't have a clue what you are on about Sproty.
Yes. Berlin had a lockdown.
Like Shanghai did. And Beijing.
to quote the often used "put down" phrase of a fellow poster who won't remain nameless
................. "and your point is"
Yes Sprot i saw that "demo".
Strangely on france 24 a while ago it mentioned which countries were doing what furloughwise and when it came to Germany , it only mentioned what Berlin, not Germany !! were up to which seemed strange. CLH thought of a Merkel angle there at the time . Meaning it "indicated" Berlin was ahead of the rest of Germany "furloughwise" by a furlong .
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https://factcheck.afp.com/false-claim-beijing-and-shanghai-are-untouched-covid-19
I'm beginning to think that we as a species will not survive the coming of social media. It's clear that there are too many people with access to it who have zero filter. They will simply accept and repeat whatever b*llocks presses their buttons, without thinking of checking its provenance.
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https://factcheck.afp.com/false-claim-beijing-and-shanghai-are-untouched-covid-19
I'm beginning to think that we as a species will not survive the coming of social media. It's clear that there are too many people with access to it who have zero filter. They will simply accept and repeat whatever b*llocks presses their buttons, without thinking of checking its provenance.
Exactly why I started this thread.
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Nudga.
I agree with you about being sceptical. But that doesn't mean I believe nothing. I work in a scientific area and science proceeds by checking claims against facts. When the facts go against the claims, the claims are binned. When the facts support the claims, the claims are strengthened.
On the topic of vaccination, I'd offer this evidence.
Polio (Widespread vaccination started in the west in the late 1950s and in the developing world in the 1980s)
(https://ourworldindata.org/exports/the-number-of-reported-paralytic-polio-cases_v1_850x600.svg)
Smallpox (WHO ran an intensive vaccination campaign worldwide through the 60s and 70s)
(https://ourworldindata.org/exports/global-smallpox-cases_v3_850x600.svg)
Measles
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Measles_US_1944-2007_inset.png)
You want my take. I think the powerful people who have pushed the anti-vaccination line are among some of the most evil people who have ever existed. Vaccination schemes have saved millions or lives and even more millions of horribly affected lives. I don't know what drives the people who first started pushing the nonsense that vaccination is a a conspiracy against freedom, but whoever it is, they are putting many people at risk.
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https://factcheck.afp.com/false-claim-beijing-and-shanghai-are-untouched-covid-19
I'm beginning to think that we as a species will not survive the coming of social media. It's clear that there are too many people with access to it who have zero filter. They will simply accept and repeat whatever b*llocks presses their buttons, without thinking of checking its provenance.
Exactly why I started this thread.
Yes I am fully supportive of it. If there are various crank theories out there then they should be discussed and outed. Or if it is new information taken on board.
Sorry I can't add much to this topic as it isn't something I know in any great depth.
I do know that Bill Gates & his foundation have been interesed in improving health worldwide for many years, specifically improving the health of children.
This of course has made him public enemy No1 for the US anti-vaxxers who have started several conspiracies about him in that time. Maybe something for you to look into?
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https://factcheck.afp.com/false-claim-beijing-and-shanghai-are-untouched-covid-19
I'm beginning to think that we as a species will not survive the coming of social media. It's clear that there are too many people with access to it who have zero filter. They will simply accept and repeat whatever b*llocks presses their buttons, without thinking of checking its provenance.
Exactly why I started this thread.
Yes I am fully supportive of it. If there are various crank theories out there then they should be discussed and outed. Or if it is new information taken on board.
Sorry I can't add much to this topic as it isn't something I know in any great depth.
I do know that Bill Gates & his foundation have been interesed in improving health worldwide for many years, specifically improving the health of children.
This of course has made him public enemy No1 for the US anti-vaxxers who have started several conspiracies about him in that time. Maybe something for you to look into?
Yes I've seen the claims that his vaccinations have supposedly killed some Indian children and that his foundation has been kicked out of India.
I chose not to post that link on here as I said earlier, there are people with agendas, on all sides, as it is with most things in life. Even the science and scientific statistics can be manipulated.
My concern is the timing of event 201 and the timing of the outbreak.
And now he is at the forefront of the vaccination push.
In all honesty, I feel very uncomfortable with the whole social distancing thing.
Such as, piped information in supermarkets droning on and on about keeping your distance.
Stay home, stay safe. Stay home, stay safe, stay home, stay safe.
Face masks in the open air.
The happy clapping ritual on Thursdays.
Nurses doing tik tok dancing.
London Bridge full of nurses, police etc but people queueing at B&Q getting lambasted.
Police doing what police do, the heavy handed doormen type kicking people out of parks.
The slogans, new normal, frontline workers, key workers.
It's almost like we're being programmed out of fear.
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Nudga.
Yep.Of course. But not the fear that you mean.
The perfectly valid fear is that if we didn't handle this correctly, there would likely be a three week period over the Summer in which 5-10,000 people a day would die in the UK alone. That is what it is about. That is why we have to take these (temporary) measures.
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I serviced a long time customers appliance today.
His brother died of Covid two weeks ago.
The brother went in with pneumonia and had two heart attacks but they've put it down to Covid, no post mortum.
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Nudga
There's no need to look at individual cases. And to some extent it doesn't really matter precisely what people are dying of. Death rates are going up astronomically around the world.
Have a look at this.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/04/21/world/coronavirus-missing-deaths.html
Surely you don't think there is a conspiracy going on, on this scale, to deceive everyone from Jakarta to Jacksonville?
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Of course it matters when it's in the papers that covid was the sole cause (in this case) that's medical fraud.
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I suspect they are doing their best in unique times.
Look at that graph for England and Wales in the link I posted, Were are having twice as many deaths as normal. The doctors and coroners will be pushed to exhaustion.
And that's WITH the lockdown. If we hadn't had that, we'd be pushing 5000 deaths a day now. I'd cut the medical and legal folks some slack if I were you.
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Twice as many deaths because some/most? are being signed off as Covid deaths.
Cut them some slack FFS!!
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No Nudga.
Twice as many deaths of ALL causes.
Whatever people are dying of, there's twice as many deaths at the moment than we'd normally expect. and it's like that all round the world. In that sense, what they are signed off as is a second order importance thing. The first order thing is that that many people are dying.
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So if its not Covid 19 deaths and there's an increase in deaths for other reasons, should we be looking at why that is and having the same fear campaign thrust upon us?
What you wrote above strikes me as double standards. You've been pushing the daily covid death figures every day for weeks but I've given you 3 or 4 examples from real, local people dying of other things that have been passed off as Covid but now it doesn't matter what people are dying of?
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Nudga.
Most of them WILL be CV-19 deaths. Yes, they will get a few wrong. Both ways. You need to look at the overall big picture, not individual cases.
And yes, there's an increase in other deaths because the health services all round the world are overstretched.
I'm not so naive as to think that there's never nefarious stuff going one, but for this to be a conspiracy, you'd need pretty much every (sane) politician, medic and epidemiologist in the world to be in on it.
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I am looking at individual cases because you could then multiply that number by whatever, hey presto, 20k deaths.
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Yes you could. If every politician, medic and epidemiologist in the world were in on the conspiracy.
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I've already shared Dr July A Mikovits story along with other independent information.
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Nudga
I assume you are aware of Mikovits's back story?
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Go on.
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The fact that she spent years pushing a claim that there was a link between a virus and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, which a concerted effort by other researchers was unable to find? And that the key paper she had written on the subject in the journal Science was retracted by them, because of this fact.
That is how the Scientific Method works.
Scientist A makes a claim. Scientists B-Z assess whether the claim makes sense and if it doesn't, publish counter arguments.
In her case, it was pretty well definitively shown that there were features of her results which no other lab in the world could reproduce, despite following exactly the approach she reported.
The conclusion when that happens is that Scientist A is wrong. Hopefully through being sloppy. In a worst case, through being deceitful.
Either way, your credibility is shot when that happens.
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Did she go against the narrative of the cooperation?
I can't find anything to support my post so 1 nil BST 😉
https://learntherisk.org/diseases/
You like graphs don't you.
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https://www.collective-evolution.com/2020/03/08/cdc-admits-in-federal-court-they-have-no-evidence-vaccines-dont-cause-autism/
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https://vaccineimpact.com/2018/vaccinegate-italian-researchers-find-fraud-with-6-combo-vaccine-given-to-babies/
Hey, I don't know, I said I'd share alternative news for your perusal.
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Nudga.
Most of them WILL be CV-19 deaths. Yes, they will get a few wrong. Both ways. You need to look at the overall big picture, not individual cases.
And yes, there's an increase in other deaths because the health services all round the world are overstretched.
I'm not so naive as to think that there's never nefarious stuff going one, but for this to be a conspiracy, you'd need pretty much every (sane) politician, medic and epidemiologist in the world to be in on it.
I think you are being too restrained here.
The number of excess deaths not attributed to covid-19 when in fact they should be (due to lack of testing etc.) will be far far greater than deaths associated with covid-19 that were wrongfully attributed.
Far greater.
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https://youtu.be/s53XByRrXGw
I haven't had the chance to watch all the way through but it's good to share.
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No Nudga. She went against some of the basic principles of science.
It's a good principle. If someone is pushing a line that is a long, long way outside the scientific consensus, look at their back story. Some DO change the world because they are right. The overwhelming majority are cranks or frauds.
As for your graphs, I don't have any problem with the fact that public health, sanitation, better health treatment, better education and better nutrition all had significant effects on reducing deaths from infectious diseases.
That's not the issue. The issue is whether vaccination also adds to that improvement.
And, critically, whether it can be a key improvement in societies where they don't have the benefits of wealth that Western countries have, and investment in those other improvements is patchy.
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By the way, that Learn the Risk website. It does something that I use as an automatic filter.
It cites a sentence from a paper. But it does so selectively.
The website says:
"Vaccination does NOT account for the impressive declines in mortality seen in the first half of the century…Nearly 90% of the decline in infectious disease mortality among US children occurred before 1940, when few antibiotics or vaccines were available."
The actual quote from the original paper says:
"Vaccination does NOT account for the impressive declines in mortality seen in the first half of the century…Nearly 90% of the decline in infectious disease mortality among US children occurred before 1940, when few antibiotics or vaccines were available."
You decide why they didn't cite the whole paragraph. Me, when I see that happen, I know the person presenting it is not interested in the truth. They are partisan. That makes me suspicious of their entire motives.
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Hi Nudga, someone was wondering about anti-Vaxers and here is some info about some of them over here in the US.
It started many years ago when they were seeing a significant increase in numbers of kids diagnosed with autism, and initially a doctor said there may be a correlation between some types of vaccinations and autism. MAY be. But later it was disproven. But people didn’t let it go. So many then refused to vaccinate their kids.
Fast forward to current day and Robert Mueller - of the famous Mueller Report on Russian interference, found that they (Russia) were using health care issues to divide people. He found that anti vaccinations is an area that they have used to stir up people. They are using Civid19 now, as Billy and CIM said, and they are still at it. See First and second links.
Tbh I also wondered if this unbelievably “perfect” virus - aka virulent and lethal - may have started in a lab, but I could find no evidence of it - just people pushing unfounded theories.
As for the heart attacks and strokes in patients from Covid, it is being noticed that this virus has caused problems with overactive blood clotting. It’s like the opposite of Ebola where people can bleed to death. Now the problem is blood is too think and clots, which can break off and travel through your blood stream to your heart or brain. The problem with your friend (who has been classified as having covid19) fits the pattern with people having pneumonia and heart attack. To be sure they would need to test or as you say a post mortem. See third link.
P.S. Re: the links below. CBS news and also the Washington Post are trusted news sources here in the us. Also, NY Times, ABC News, NBC news.
There is an account on Twitter @Teri_Kanefield - a law professor - who writes that you should always use trusted news organisations to get your facts to avoid fake news. Also check many different trusted sources, which is the key.
Hope this helps a bit.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/anti-vax-movement-russian-trolls-fueled-anti-vaccination-debate-in-us-by-spreading-misinformation-twitter-study/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-coronavirus-gives-russia-and-china-another-opportunity-to-spread-their-disinformation/2020/03/29/8423a0f8-6d4c-11ea-a3ec-70d7479d83f0_story.html
https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/04/24/strokes-coronavirus-young-patients/
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So I'm afraid Nudga, after that, the onus is on YOU to demonstrate that the rest of your sources aren't spouting unbalanced crap.
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By the way, that Learn the Risk website. It does something that I use as an automatic filter.
It cites a sentence from a paper. But it does so selectively.
The website says:
"Vaccination does NOT account for the impressive declines in mortality seen in the first half of the century…Nearly 90% of the decline in infectious disease mortality among US children occurred before 1940, when few antibiotics or vaccines were available."
The actual quote from the original paper says:
"Vaccination does NOT account for the impressive declines in mortality seen in the first half of the century…Nearly 90% of the decline in infectious disease mortality among US children occurred before 1940, when few antibiotics or vaccines were available."
You decide why they didn't cite the whole paragraph. Me, when I see that happen, I know the person presenting it is not interested in the truth. They are partisan. That makes me suspicious of their entire motives.
For some reason I cannot paste the full.quote. It's just pasting the original and that kind of makes my post look stupid. I'll do it a bit later.
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OK. Post #42 that I totally ballsed up because the copy/paste wouldn't work. This is what it was meant to say.
By the way, that Learn the Risk website. It does something that I use as an automatic filter.
It cites a sentence from a paper. But it does so selectively.
The website says:
"Vaccination does NOT account for the impressive declines in mortality seen in the first half of the century…Nearly 90% of the decline in infectious disease mortality among US children occurred before 1940, when few antibiotics or vaccines were available."
The actual quote from the original paper says:
"Thus vaccination does not (NB: No capitals) account for the impressive declines in mortality seen in the first half of the century. The reductions in vaccine-preventable diseases, however, are impressive. In the early 1920s, diphtheria accounted for about 175 000 cases annually and pertussis for nearly 150 000 cases; measles accounted for about half a million annual cases before the introduction of vaccine in the 1960s. Deaths from these diseases have been virtually eliminated, as have deaths from Haemophilus influenzae, tetanus, and poliomyelitis."
You decide why they didn't cite the whole paragraph. Me, when I see that happen, I know the person presenting it is not interested in the truth. They are partisan. That makes me suspicious of their entire motives.
PS: The "Nearly 90% of the decline in infectious disease mortality among US children occurred before 1940, when few antibiotics or vaccines were available" sentence actually comes BEFORE the sentence that your webpage puts it after. That might be just sloppy, but in general, it is a no-no to move stuff around when you are directly quoting. It gives the impression that you are trying to say something that the original author didn't intend. I don't think that is the case here, but the fact that they chose to put THAT sentence in and not the actual text which follows in the real paper tells you everything you need to know. They are presenting the information is a highly biased way, and having seen that, I wouldn't trust them if they told me it was Monday.
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Thanks Sandy, I appreciate that and nicely written. I'll certainly take that on board and have a good read when I get the chance, going to put the phone away in a bit.
BST, that's how you post a difference of opinion for future reference.
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Nudga
I'm sorry mate, but the first evidence you gave is from a discredited, crank scientist and the second one is clearly and unequivocally trying to peddle a biased line. I've only got so much patience and I don't think, in the light of that, that I'm being unreasonable in saying the onus is on you to demonstrate that the rest of your sources are not similarly flawed.
And I'd also point out that I did entirely accept the argument that massive improvements happened before vaccines. I'm not trying to start an argument here. But I DO get angry when I see sites that that Learn the Risk one deliberately and consciously misleading intelligent people like you on an issue that is so important. So my apologies if my response comes across as a bit terse.
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I think I preferred Nudga when I thought of him as some sort of debased pervert rather than the forum’s answer to David Icke.
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Nudga.
Most of them WILL be CV-19 deaths. Yes, they will get a few wrong. Both ways. You need to look at the overall big picture, not individual cases.
And yes, there's an increase in other deaths because the health services all round the world are overstretched.
I'm not so naive as to think that there's never nefarious stuff going one, but for this to be a conspiracy, you'd need pretty much every (sane) politician, medic and epidemiologist in the world to be in on it.
I think you are being too restrained here.
The number of excess deaths not attributed to covid-19 when in fact they should be (due to lack of testing etc.) will be far far greater than deaths associated with covid-19 that were wrongfully attributed.
Far greater.
I remember a graph that showed this better than any description will - but as I can't find it now and there will be new figures out tomorrow anyway:
In the week to 10 April, there were 6,213 deaths where Covid19 was mentioned on death certificates, according to the ONS and 7,996 more deaths than the rolling average for that week of the previous five years.
So if these extra 1700 deaths that would not be expected at this time of year are not down to Covid-19 - what are they down to?
We will never really know for sure but the number of deaths being attributed to Covid-19 is far more likely to be an under-estimate than an overestimate.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1252556232646447104
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I think I preferred Nudga when I thought of him as some sort of debased pervert rather than the forum’s answer to David Icke.
Ouch. 🖕
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https://aytubio.com/healight/
I have read that ventilators can exacerbate the problem.
Get outside or get on the sun beds lads and lasses.
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I think I preferred Nudga when I thought of him as some sort of debased pervert rather than the forum’s answer to David Icke.
:lol: :lol:
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I think I preferred Nudga when I thought of him as some sort of debased pervert rather than the forum’s answer to David Icke.
:lol: :lol:
And I haven't even gone down the lizard men path yet 😉
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Anyone think it’s just a huge social experiment.
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I didn't like to say 😉
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Yeah. With every Govt in the world in on it, along with every senior medic, every credible epidemiologist and every credible virologist.
Come on lads. As Conspiracy Theories go, this would make faking the moon landings look like a playground game.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EWrbErJXgAYbO3f?format=jpg&name=medium
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That didn’t take long :lol:
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Who set foot on the moon first?
Answer; The camara man.
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Actually, it was Louis Armstrong. It was there that he wrote 'What A Wonderful World' while looking down on Earth.
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Who actually travelled on that double decker. I’ve seen the photo!
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Glad I served your purpose Knockers
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Come on BST, lighten up, humour is good for the soul in trying times.
I've probably made a cock of myself on this thread but I couldn't give a toss.
My aim was to get people talking about the possibility of the dark forces at work (if they exist)
We know the most powerful people on earth are probably the most corrupt.
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Come on BST, lighten up, humour is good for the soul in trying times.
I've probably made a cock of myself on this thread but I couldn't give a toss.
My aim was to get people talking about the possibility of the dark forces at work (if they exist)
We know the most powerful people on earth are probably the most corrupt.
The Rothschilds?
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Glad I served your purpose Knockers
Seriously though a thorough analysis of people’s behaviour throughout the lockdown will be fascinating. It will definitely bring about a culture change in social and work place settings.
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Yes, if you ever see a potential mugger coming towards you in future all you have to do is cough and theyll f**k off sharpish.
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Glad I served your purpose Knockers
Seriously though a thorough analysis of people’s behaviour throughout the lockdown will be fascinating. It will definitely bring about a culture change in social and work place settings.
Suicides and domestic abuse figures should be interesting.
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Come on BST, lighten up, humour is good for the soul in trying times.
I've probably made a cock of myself on this thread but I couldn't give a toss.
My aim was to get people talking about the possibility of the dark forces at work (if they exist)
We know the most powerful people on earth are probably the most corrupt.
You need to follow the link I put in this thread then Nudga, some distinctly crackpot people in this twitter link;
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=276713.0
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I think I preferred Nudga when I thought of him as some sort of debased pervert rather than the forum’s answer to David Icke.
Think the lucid state during and after an alfixiw**k accounts for half this thread 🤣
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Come on BST, lighten up, humour is good for the soul in trying times.
I've probably made a cock of myself on this thread but I couldn't give a toss.
My aim was to get people talking about the possibility of the dark forces at work (if they exist)
We know the most powerful people on earth are probably the most corrupt.
You need to follow the link I put in this thread then Nudga, some distinctly crackpot people in this twitter link;
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=276713.0
Yep, saw that last week. Nothing to see there.
This however, follow the money.
https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1253738273949827072?s=19
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Come on BST, lighten up, humour is good for the soul in trying times.
I've probably made a cock of myself on this thread but I couldn't give a toss.
My aim was to get people talking about the possibility of the dark forces at work (if they exist)
We know the most powerful people on earth are probably the most corrupt.
You need to follow the link I put in this thread then Nudga, some distinctly crackpot people in this twitter link;
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=276713.0
Yep, saw that last week. Nothing to see there.
This however, follow the money.
https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1253738273949827072?s=19
Nudga.
This lockdown is going to cost the British economy £200bn min. in lost output.
Go figure.
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Come on BST, lighten up, humour is good for the soul in trying times.
I've probably made a cock of myself on this thread but I couldn't give a toss.
My aim was to get people talking about the possibility of the dark forces at work (if they exist)
We know the most powerful people on earth are probably the most corrupt.
You need to follow the link I put in this thread then Nudga, some distinctly crackpot people in this twitter link;
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=276713.0
Yep, saw that last week. Nothing to see there.
This however, follow the money.
https://twitter.com/DominicRaab/status/1253738273949827072?s=19
You see, this is why I'm really struggling with all of this, no matter what side you look at, or where you look, there are people with such extreme views that having a sensible conversation is never going to happen.
That thread is full of people making out that Bill Gates is a killer, that the vaccine is designed just to make money, that the WHO is in on all this. The whole thing is puerile. Grown people looking to be outraged all the time.
Here's a couple of examples;
We don't want your dodgy vaccines thank you. Or thise of your corrupt power crazy friends
All in bed together ! Follow the money - we are not stupid !!!
So it seems that @DominicRaab
is part of the globalist cabal intent on enslaving us.
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https://twitter.com/sabhlok/status/1255791097948835840?s=19
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Nudga.
This talk about Sweden just ploughing on through. It's b*llocks. They HAVE had a lock down, they've just donw it without having to have it imposed on them.
The IMF reckons Sweden will take a bigger hit to GDP this year than we will.
Sweden -6.8%:
https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/SWE
UK -6.5%:
https://www.imf.org/en/Countries/GBR
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Sweden didn’t close its schools and most of their businesses remained open as usual.
They have advised social distancing and regular washing of hands etc but have not advised people to stay home.
That doesn’t look like a lockdown.
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"The difference between the approach in Sweden and in other countries is not very big. It's mainly the tone that we deal with," said Johan Carlson, director of Sweden's public health agency
Universities, Colleges and some high schools did close in Sweden. It kept open primary schools and nurseries for the stated reason that key emergency service workers needed childcare. This happened in alot of other European countries as well.
At the end of March, Sweden started to become very worried itself about primary schools and nurseries, signing several executive orders giving it power to close them if needed, or on a case basis.
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https://twitter.com/sabhlok/status/1255791097948835840?s=19
There is also something of a leap of logic between what the WHO guy actually said, and what yer man on Twitter claims he said.
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Firstly, I hope you are all keeping safe and well in these terrible times..
Secondly, the daily tally of those who have perished... I believe it is an utter lie, my oldest friend lives in Gloucestershire and owns a security company. His firm takes care of a medical complex that contains both doctors and dentists, a large number of those through the doors are addicts so basically manning the reception desk is a job for security, each business has it's own dedicated reception in its own clinic.
Anyway I digress.. Each day he works I ask him for the total for the day and every single time the NHS total that he has access to is higher then the figure given by the WHO by up to 100 souls a day.
So, yes I do believe we are being lied to, and if we are ..then what else are they keeping from us?
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Firstly, I hope you are all keeping safe and well in these terrible times..
Secondly, the daily tally of those who have perished... I believe it is an utter lie, my oldest friend lives in Gloucestershire and owns a security company. His firm takes care of a medical complex that contains both doctors and dentists, a large number of those through the doors are addicts so basically manning the reception desk is a job for security, each business has it's own dedicated reception in its own clinic.
Anyway I digress.. Each day he works I ask him for the total for the day and every single time the NHS total that he has access to is higher then the figure given by the WHO by up to 100 souls a day.
So, yes I do believe we are being lied to, and if we are ..then what else are they keeping from us?
The number of people who have recovered from the virus for a start!
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Back on Sweden, I see their chief epidemiologist is saying that 25% of the population has now had the virus. That's about 2.5 million people.
That estimate certainly hasn't come from testing. They have a lower rate of testing even than us and have tested only about 1% of their population.
Given that they have had 2,600 deaths, it seems that the 2.5million estimate comes from an assumption that the Infection Fatality Rate is 0.1%. Their chief epidemiologist has frequently quoted that number.
Which is interesting because that is right at the very bottom of the range that has been quoted from serological studies that have been conducted to date.
I hope to God that he's right. Because if he is, this disease is much less deadly than we have been believing.
But it seems a bit hard to believe. As CiM pointed out a week ago, already CV-19 has killed more than 0.1% of all the residents in New York. So even if every single person in NYC had already had the disease, the IFR would already be above 0.1%.
Like I say, I'd love for Sweden to be right. But it's a massive gamble.
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Thanks for sharing Deb. Out on my travels I'm hearing stories of people being sent to Covid wards and told they have tested positive for the virus, even though they'd not been tested.
People dying of heart attacks, terminal cancer but signed off as Covid.
DNRs slapped here and there.
But it's OK though, the medical research graph specialist on here says it doesn't really matter what people are dying of.
Quote.
There's no need to look at individual cases. And to some extent it doesn't really matter precisely what people are dying of. Death rates are going up astronomically around the world.
Edit.
At least covid has been a cure of sorts for other diseases
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Here's an interesting article, good old David Icke;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52501453
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Nudga.
Is it or is it not a fact that death rates are going up astronomically all round the world?
If you accept that, there are two possibilities.
1) There is a global pandemic causing mass deaths. The sort of thing that has happened regularly throughout history.
2) Something else is causing it and the leaders and scientists of every country in the world are engaged in a huge conspiracy to lie to us.
As for the quote of mine that you noted, it was poorly written. What I meant was to some extent it doesn't matter if every single cause of death is recorded accurately. Not if you are asking the question I just set out in this post.
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Here's an interesting article, good old David Icke;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-52501453
That's not interesting, the bloke is irrelevant.
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Nudga.
Is it or is it not a fact that death rates are going up astronomically all round the world?
If you accept that, there are two possibilities.
1) There is a global pandemic causing mass deaths. The sort of thing that has happened regularly throughout history.
2) Something else is causing it and the leaders and scientists of every country in the world are engaged in a huge conspiracy to lie to us.
As for the quote of mine that you noted, it was poorly written. What I meant was to some extent it doesn't matter if every single cause of death is recorded accurately. Not if you are asking the question I just set out in this post.
You've just worded that differently. Why doesn't it matter if deaths aren't recorded accurately?
It's falsifying records, not sure how you can dress it up.
You scream blue murder for accuracy in your arguments.
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I used the word "all". It is inevitable that there are going to be mistakes made when a crisis like this hits, there are twice as many deaths as usual and health services are stretched to the limit. As someone else said a few days ago, there are likely to be at least as many errors the other way.
What about my other point? Which of those two possibilities do you reckon is the more likely one to be true?
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I used the word "all". It is inevitable that there are going to be mistakes made when a crisis like this hits, there are twice as many deaths as usual and health services are stretched to the limit. As someone else said a few days ago, there are likely to be at least as many errors the other way.
What about my other point? Which of those two possibilities do you reckon is the more likely one to be true?
I don't know BST, I really don't. But something isn't right, can you see that?
I've had first hand accounts of people affected by this, and even those who have lost loved ones have some very serious issues and questions.
Even down to the methods of medical practice.
I haven't even wrote on here what I was told by a health professional so as to protect them and their career.
I don't care if you want proof of this conversation.
Things don't add up, even the bullshit story of BoJo having it.
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Nudga.
At the very maximum around 1 person in 2000 in the UK has died in this epidemic.
The nearest it's come to me is a colleague of an old friend who died at the age of 40. Had all the symptoms of CV-19 apparently and was certified as having died of CV-19. I'm genuinely sorry for you if your circle of friends has had it a lot worse than this.
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I think I’ve (or at least my wife’s family has) been more affected than most. My mother in law’s sister was in hospital having had a hip replacement around the time lockdown started and tested positive after being in there. Didn’t really have any symptoms other than a bit of breathing difficulty (although she has lung cancer anyway) and feeling overwhelmingly tired. She recovered and was discharged but is back in hospital now with an unrelated infection. My father in law has a brain tumour and has been on chemo for the best part of a year, 2 carers coming round every day and went in to hospital just over a fortnight ago after having breathing difficulties. He tested positive and has been in receiving oxygen ever since.
Having seen (well ok, not “seen”!) first hand the impact this has had and the response (the communication from the hospital with my father in law has been absolutely first rate) I’ve no issues with the medical response.
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Nudga.
Is it or is it not a fact that death rates are going up astronomically all round the world?
If you accept that, there are two possibilities.
1) There is a global pandemic causing mass deaths. The sort of thing that has happened regularly throughout history.
2) Something else is causing it and the leaders and scientists of every country in the world are engaged in a huge conspiracy to lie to us.
As for the quote of mine that you noted, it was poorly written. What I meant was to some extent it doesn't matter if every single cause of death is recorded accurately. Not if you are asking the question I just set out in this post.
You've just worded that differently. Why doesn't it matter if deaths aren't recorded accurately?
It's falsifying records, not sure how you can dress it up.
You scream blue murder for accuracy in your arguments.
Its been posted on this forum a few times now, and has been in the news as a result. Even in 'normal' time deaths are not registered with exact precision, as single causes. It just insn't like that. You would need triangulation from a coroner's report, doctor, post-mortem (even then it might be conclusive - my uncle died randomly in the kitchen one day and the cause was inconclusive). In most cases they rely on a doctor filling in a death certificate. The doctor is often imbued with imperfect knowledge and has to make a profressional judgement. Then, there are multiple aspects (underlying conditions etc.) listed on the certficate. There is no, one single reason listed.
For your claim of 'falsifying' records you would need systematic corruption among pretty much every doctor in the country.
Its really just an imperfect system and humans trying to make the best of it.
Perhaps turn your energies into something productive.
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Perhaps turn your energies into something productive
What, like working night shifts and trying to salvage my business.
Condescending prick.
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I'll take that on the chin.
I've worked plenty of night shifts.
Look, I think people have actually been extremely polite to you on this thread. You're suggesting doctors are systematically falsifying death certificates. If calling you out on that gets an insult in return, as I say, I'll take it.
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Wow that is a catalogue of misfortune.
I am watching from a distance and the NHS Staff (I have 2 in my close family) seem to be doing a great job. It is what I expect because you wouldnt go into it surely if you didnt care as it must be a challenging thing to do without the added "fright" of this potentially deadly virus waiting for you each shift
I hope when this is all over the NHS Staff will be remembered for "eternity" and valued - yes monetary wise - for the same eternity. They deserve it period
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Agreed Wolfy. I just read this morning that more NHS staff have died in the last few weeks than died in the first five years of the war in Iraq. They should be honoured. It all amounts to nothing though, unless the ones currently working aren't honoured with the right pay, equipment, and respect from the public.
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😂😂😂 You couldn't make it up, the guy who modelled half a million deaths brings someone else's slag home to stir the porridge.
https://twitter.com/allisonpearson/status/1257736745103351808?s=19
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Yeah, you can be a Grade A d**khead in your private life and still be a decent Scientist.
Isaac Newton was an absolute Kitson of a person. I assume you don't think gravity is a con Nudga?
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Gravity, that shit is real. Our lasses tits convinced me of that one.
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Gravity, that shit is real. Our lasses tits convinced me of that one.
Alright lads. Nudga's back.
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https://youtu.be/nFPeN17PVU8
Have you watched this Nudga?
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Yeah, you can be a Grade A d**khead in your private life and still be a decent Scientist.
Isaac Newton was an absolute Kitson of a person. I assume you don't think gravity is a con Nudga?
Would now be a good time to revisit those graphs from Ferguson and his colleagues at Imperial that were bandied around on here so much a few weeks ago? In particular his predictions for where Sweden would be right about now.....
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https://youtu.be/nFPeN17PVU8
Have you watched this Nudga?
No mate, I'll watch later. Again, this is why I opened this thread up, just to question the official line.
I also noticed nobody gave Juicyberry the courtesy of an explanation or counter argument.
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Gravity, that shit is real. Our lasses tits convinced me of that one.
Alright lads. Nudga's back.
I'd like to say ditto but you're responding to every other post on multiple threads so your humour has been somewhat diluted.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsi9csLNb-Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsi9csLNb-Y)
Posted without comment.
If the video gets taken down, google for Dr Judy Mitkovits.. look at the wiki page on her - it’s quite dismissive..
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/africa/1850839/tanzania-president-magufuli-blames-covid-19-rise-on-faulty-tests-goats/amp/
Even fruit isn't safe.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsi9csLNb-Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsi9csLNb-Y)
Posted without comment.
If the video gets taken down, google for Dr Judy Mitkovits.. look at the wiki page on her - it’s quite dismissive..
If will be, she went against the system.
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https://www.google.com/amp/s/qz.com/africa/1850839/tanzania-president-magufuli-blames-covid-19-rise-on-faulty-tests-goats/amp/
Even fruit isn't safe.
Yeah. I believe that President is being 100% truthful.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsi9csLNb-Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsi9csLNb-Y)
Posted without comment.
If the video gets taken down, google for Dr Judy Mitkovits.. look at the wiki page on her - it’s quite dismissive..
If will be, she went against the system.
Yeah. She went against the scientific method. That tends to get you booted out if the scientific community.
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https://twitter.com/InstituteGC/status/1259075645595725824?s=19
Should we be worried yet?
Is Covid-19 the weapon of mass destruction he was looking for?
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https://twitter.com/03d5d0a1/status/1259075510136705025?s=19
Surely this can't be real?
If it is, f**k your lockdown!!
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https://twitter.com/03d5d0a1/status/1259075510136705025?s=19
Surely this can't be real?
If it is, f**k your lockdown!!
It certainly can't be recent as there are no leaves on the trees...
Maybe you should post that last thought on the thread where people are talking about family members having caught it.
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https://twitter.com/03d5d0a1/status/1259075510136705025?s=19
Surely this can't be real?
If it is, f**k your lockdown!!
It certainly can't be recent as there are no leaves on the trees...
Maybe you should post that last thought on the thread where people are talking about family members having caught it.
Beat me to it. First thing that struck me when I saw it.
But hey! If you were going to do a video like that, wouldn't you pluck all the leaves off the trees first, just to fool the clever arses who don't realise the whole thing is a conspiracy?
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Fair point. It's not like it hasn't been done before though, multiple times.
Your man Tony was part of the biggest conspiracy once upon a time though eh.
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Who's man?
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https://unherd.com/2020/05/oxford-doubles-down-sunetra-gupta-interview/
University of Oxford
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https://unherd.com/2020/05/oxford-doubles-down-sunetra-gupta-interview/
University of Oxford
Nudga
That's fine. That is her opinion.
The Scientific Method works by different scientists putting forward their opinions and then having them checked against evidence.
So let's look at the facts as they currently stand.
1) Pretty much every seroprevalance study to date has been consistent with a Infection Fatality Rate of 0.1-2%.
2) Gupta suggests that the actual IFR is more like 0.01-0.1%.
3) But...and here's the crucial thing...she offers precisely zero evidence for that. It's entirely based on her opinion.
The way the Scientific Method works is that her opinion would carry a lot of weight if there was evidence emerging that everyone else in the world was wrong and she was right.
But there isn't.
So she claims (with zero supporting evidence) that everyone else's studies (that indiacte that her opinions are grossly wrong) are flawed.
Now, she MAY be right. Just like the people 500 years ago who said to Copernicus, "We don't care if your model that says the earth goes round the Sun predicts the positions of planets accurately and the evidence increasingly supports it. WE believe that the Sun goes round the earth" might have been right.
But the outlier opinions will only become accepted when the evidence supports them. It doesn't matter if the person pushing the outlier ideas is from Donny Tech or Oxford University. As the greatest scientist of the 20th century, Richard Feynman said, it doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is - if it is contradicted by the evidence, it is wrong.
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By the way, Gupta's team didn't "produce a rival model back in March" as that article incorrectly says. They didn't produce any "model" at all. At least not one based on evidence. They did calculations based on the ASSUMPTION that already by then, 50% of the population had been infected.
That's not a model. It is guesswork and presenting results that show what the case would be if their guess was correct.
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https://twitter.com/unherd/status/1263454901889380354?s=19
Like Professor Karol Sikora says, we need to have measured discussion and balance.
Censorship is a worrying development.
Censorship leads people like me to question the official line.
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Isn’t our government already censoring which information goes public by not publishing SAGE minutes.?
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In my opinion this virus was man made in a Chinese laboratory and released to destroy the economy of the West. The Chinese wouldn't think twice about losing a few thousand of their own in order to get the required results world wide. They probably already have a stock pile of something even more harmful now they have seen the results of how this has spread.
Our Governments though must have been rubbing their hands together at the opportunity of using this as an excuse to take away many of our freedoms. They have made this virus out to be far more dangerous to normal people than it really is in order to scare people into submission. All they want is to control us more. This is the thin end of the wedge for the cashless society, saying where and when you can go anywhere etc. The old bill must be loving this, endless overtime and the ability to bully innocent people for sitting out in their gardens! Anyone who doesn't go with the flow is cast as a crank or dangerous. Also this Thursday night clap fest is like something from 1984. I know I will get slagged off on here but I don't really care because I know I can see the truth and am not a sheep.
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In my opinion this virus was man made in a Chinese laboratory and released to destroy the economy of the West. The Chinese wouldn't think twice about losing a few thousand of their own in order to get the required results world wide. They probably already have a stock pile of something even more harmful now they have seen the results of how this has spread.
Our Governments though must have been rubbing their hands together at the opportunity of using this as an excuse to take away many of our freedoms. They have made this virus out to be far more dangerous to normal people than it really is in order to scare people into submission. All they want is to control us more. This is the thin end of the wedge for the cashless society, saying where and when you can go anywhere etc. The old bill must be loving this, endless overtime and the ability to bully innocent people for sitting out in their gardens! Anyone who doesn't go with the flow is cast as a crank or dangerous. Also this Thursday night clap fest is like something from 1984. I know I will get slagged off on here but I don't really care because I know I can see the truth and am not a sheep.
Any evidence or facts to support any of that fella? What have you based these opinions on?
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In my opinion this virus was man made in a Chinese laboratory and released to destroy the economy of the West. The Chinese wouldn't think twice about losing a few thousand of their own in order to get the required results world wide. They probably already have a stock pile of something even more harmful now they have seen the results of how this has spread.
Our Governments though must have been rubbing their hands together at the opportunity of using this as an excuse to take away many of our freedoms. They have made this virus out to be far more dangerous to normal people than it really is in order to scare people into submission. All they want is to control us more. This is the thin end of the wedge for the cashless society, saying where and when you can go anywhere etc. The old bill must be loving this, endless overtime and the ability to bully innocent people for sitting out in their gardens! Anyone who doesn't go with the flow is cast as a crank or dangerous. Also this Thursday night clap fest is like something from 1984. I know I will get slagged off on here but I don't really care because I know I can see the truth and am not a sheep.
Any evidence or facts to support any of that fella? What have you based these opinions on?
Hes ran out of tin foil hats.....
-
In my opinion this virus was man made in a Chinese laboratory and released to destroy the economy of the West. The Chinese wouldn't think twice about losing a few thousand of their own in order to get the required results world wide. They probably already have a stock pile of something even more harmful now they have seen the results of how this has spread.
Our Governments though must have been rubbing their hands together at the opportunity of using this as an excuse to take away many of our freedoms. They have made this virus out to be far more dangerous to normal people than it really is in order to scare people into submission. All they want is to control us more. This is the thin end of the wedge for the cashless society, saying where and when you can go anywhere etc. The old bill must be loving this, endless overtime and the ability to bully innocent people for sitting out in their gardens! Anyone who doesn't go with the flow is cast as a crank or dangerous. Also this Thursday night clap fest is like something from 1984. I know I will get slagged off on here but I don't really care because I know I can see the truth and am not a sheep.
Any evidence or facts to support any of that fella? What have you based these opinions on?
Which part of it do you not believe not to be correct?
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He didn’t express any disbelief or belief, in the content of your statement.
A question was asked, that’s all. Or is this going to turn into another thread where posters raise something then don’t answer when asked something specific.?
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In my opinion this virus was man made in a Chinese laboratory and released to destroy the economy of the West. The Chinese wouldn't think twice about losing a few thousand of their own in order to get the required results world wide. They probably already have a stock pile of something even more harmful now they have seen the results of how this has spread.
Our Governments though must have been rubbing their hands together at the opportunity of using this as an excuse to take away many of our freedoms. They have made this virus out to be far more dangerous to normal people than it really is in order to scare people into submission. All they want is to control us more. This is the thin end of the wedge for the cashless society, saying where and when you can go anywhere etc. The old bill must be loving this, endless overtime and the ability to bully innocent people for sitting out in their gardens! Anyone who doesn't go with the flow is cast as a crank or dangerous. Also this Thursday night clap fest is like something from 1984. I know I will get slagged off on here but I don't really care because I know I can see the truth and am not a sheep.
Any evidence or facts to support any of that fella? What have you based these opinions on?
Which part of it do you not believe not to be correct?
I didn’t say that I believe or disbelieve any of it. I don’t have the facts so can’t make a judgment. However, you’ve said that in your opinion this was a deliberate act by the Chinese, so I’m asking you how you’ve come by this view?
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They still have not been able to confirm that the virus came from that fish market in Wuhan.
Personally I think it is too much of a coincidence that there is a high security biolab, literally just down the road, where they are known to be experimenting with coronavirus, where they are known to have been experimenting with bats.
Whether or not it is something they have found in the wild or if this is engineered, who knows. Chances are though, that lab is the origin.
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In my opinion this virus was man made in a Chinese laboratory and released to destroy the economy of the West. The Chinese wouldn't think twice about losing a few thousand of their own in order to get the required results world wide. They probably already have a stock pile of something even more harmful now they have seen the results of how this has spread.
Our Governments though must have been rubbing their hands together at the opportunity of using this as an excuse to take away many of our freedoms. They have made this virus out to be far more dangerous to normal people than it really is in order to scare people into submission. All they want is to control us more. This is the thin end of the wedge for the cashless society, saying where and when you can go anywhere etc. The old bill must be loving this, endless overtime and the ability to bully innocent people for sitting out in their gardens! Anyone who doesn't go with the flow is cast as a crank or dangerous. Also this Thursday night clap fest is like something from 1984. I know I will get slagged off on here but I don't really care because I know I can see the truth and am not a sheep.
Any evidence or facts to support any of that fella? What have you based these opinions on?
Which part of it do you not believe not to be correct?
I didn’t say that I believe or disbelieve any of it. I don’t have the facts so can’t make a judgment. However, you’ve said that in your opinion this was a deliberate act by the Chinese, so I’m asking you how you’ve come by this view?
Do you not think it odd that after many years of economic growth that as soon as China starts to struggle and is also involved in a trade war with the U.S. that this happens and the economy of the West is smashed in one fell swoop? It is a fact that they have a lab in Wuhan where they work on this type of thing. I just find it hard to believe that this all originates from a food market all of a sudden. They must have been eating rats, bats and cats for thousands of years over there.
Regarding our governments response I believe they want to scare us. It has been stated by many scientists that to normal, healthy people it is probable to recover well after a couple of weeks. Surely it would have been better to isolate and look after the vulnerable properly and let everyone else continue to work?
As regards cashless society the powers that be really want this to happen so they can make sure no-one is fiddling the inland revenue. You can only buy a loaf of bread at the bakery in Epworth if you are contactless! So if you have a normal bank card which is not contactless you've had it.
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Also while everyone is otherwise engaged the Chinese are clamping down in Hong Kong. Maybe two birds with one stone (or one test tube)?
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I don't think this has been released intentionally.
Everything points towards someone having got lax and brought it out into the environment by accident.
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I don't think this has been released intentionally.
Everything points towards someone having got lax and brought it out into the environment by accident.
Maybe so, but we will never be told the truth. Even if our government knew it was intentional they would not tell us.
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That's a pretty rock solid way of arguing.
1) I believe X is true.
2) Even if evidence shows that X isn't true, I won't believe it, because....THEM!
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There is no evidence to show X isn't true.
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I was referring to AL rather than you RD.
Let me put it another way then.
2) If no evidence emerges that X is true, I'll assume it's THEM blocking it.
That's a more accurate summary of AL's take. And it is literally impossible to argue rationally with that.
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There is no evidence to show X isn't true.
No one knows for sure, but on a balance of probabilities I reckon i'm right. People can believe or disbelieve whatever they want, it doesn't make any difference because it's still here and I can't buy bread in Epworth.
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I was referring to AL rather than you RD.
Let me put it another way then.
2) If no evidence emerges that X is true, I'll assume it's THEM blocking it.
That's a more accurate summary of AL's take. And it is literally impossible to argue rationally with that.
What evidence is there that it was an accidental outbreak at the market which just happened to be down the road from a germ warfare lab, and would you believe the Chinese government in any case?
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I agree that the notion that the virus was released intentionally seems fanciful.
We know the Chinese government were in a flap when it first emerged, denying it, surpressing it. Circumstances suggest it looked like they didn't believe it and then wanted to hush it up. Which could suggests they knew it might have come from the Wuhan lab.
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I don't think this has been released intentionally.
Everything points towards someone having got lax and brought it out into the environment by accident.
Maybe so, but we will never be told the truth. Even if our government knew it was intentional they would not tell us.
You need to have a step-back and think about the implications of what you are saying.
1. China has comitted one of (if not) the worst war crimes in history
2. Our government is hiding the (worst) war crime (in history).
I am not trying to be condescending (before some posters above churp in), but that is the gravitas of what you are suggesting.
That is hard to believe for so many reason. Me? I think governments mainly make decisions for economic reasons and this has hit China economically. It immediately discredits it alot for me. Hidden by our governments? Do you not listen to Trump. He was at it for two months blaming China.
'They' think. And by they I mostly mean genetic biologists but several intelligence agencies have actually also had to release statements saying the same thing, that the virus does not show any signs of being engineered, and in fact has a specific natural origin in a particular species of bat.
What we don't know is how it got to humans. Partly because there is a lack of evidence (and China has hidden and obfuscated a lot of evidence).
Zoonotic transmission is one hypothesis. (fits in with histroical precendent, probably orginated from rural china and not Wuhan)
It is a reasonable hypothesis it escaped a lab/research by mistake.
But there's very little evidence for either.
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There is pretty good evidence that it first emerged in that area of Wuhan. There are other earlier suspected cases in other areas, even in America, the Chinese have claimed.
It being first reported in Wuhan is pretty firm though, and that really begins to narrow it down to either the fish market or one of two labs.
Now they still haven't been able to firmly link it with the fish market. I even saw one report in a paper that claimed the fish market could be discounted.
But the lab with a couple of the world's leading coronavirus experts, known to be working with bats... No one wants to talk about that much. Except Trump who let it slip, he'd seen evidence from five eyes suggesting that was a prime candidate.
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There is pretty good evidence that it first emerged in that area of Wuhan.
I am not sure about either now, RD, to be honest.
I don't have the link to hand, but there was a virology expert detailing that its just as likely the first transmission happened in a deep rural area, and it was transport to the fish market through that person, and that the market the first cluster, not case, cluster. This has happened with (alot of) other pathogens in history.
But the evidence isn't there for anything, it needs repeating.
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This article explains why the seafood market almost certainly not the source of the epidemic.
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/01/wuhan-seafood-market-may-not-be-source-novel-virus-spreading-globally
I suppose that doesn't discount it coming from a rural area but it does suggest it didn't come through the market.
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There is no evidence to show X isn't true.
No one knows for sure, but on a balance of probabilities I reckon i'm right. People can believe or disbelieve whatever they want, it doesn't make any difference because it's still here and I can't buy bread in Epworth.
It seems a pretty convoluted and complicated conspiracy in order to get people in the Isle to use contactless cards. I'm sure there's easier ways!
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There is no evidence to show X isn't true.
No one knows for sure, but on a balance of probabilities I reckon i'm right. People can believe or disbelieve whatever they want, it doesn't make any difference because it's still here and I can't buy bread in Epworth.
It seems a pretty convoluted and complicated conspiracy in order to get people in the Isle to use contactless cards. I'm sure there's easier ways!
[/quote
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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You can still barter in the quieter areas of the isle
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Axholme Lion, you might like this piece by Dr Andrew Kaufman.
https://youtu.be/QMwv_iivFC4
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You can still barter in the quieter areas of the isle
Whats the local currency there these days, the Groat? 😂😂😂
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Axholme Lion, you might like this piece by Dr Andrew Kaufman.
https://youtu.be/QMwv_iivFC4
I'm surprised at you Nudga, this is (one of) the responses to that clip;
Do Not Consent to ANY of it!
No Social Distancing.
No Masks.
No Martial Law.
NO non-essential jobs/business's/activities/pursuits/rights/people
No Testing. No testing For Employment. NO testing For Travel. NO TESTING PERIOD.
NO Vaccine. NO Forced Vaccinations. NO restrictions based on vaccination status or any medical condition.
No restrictions based on immunity nor lack there of.
No restrictions based in any way on "infectivity" or any other medical condition.
No Contact Tracing, No Invasion of Privacy, No invasion of security of one person, papers or effects.
No Vaccination Identification or Certification of any kind ever.
NO injected or any implanted identification chips ever of any kind.
NO Surveillance State, No 5G, No Drones, and NO "*New* Normal" Ever!
No suspension of Constitution and NO suspension of the Bill of Rights ever.
NO infringement of Freedom of Religion. NO restriction of the type, practice or involvement or association of Religion of any kind. No Government interference or regulation on religion, spirituality, faith or beliefs of any kind ever. NO intrusion or insertion of or by Goernment in to practice or conduct or designs or or any other aspect of any kind ever = SEPERATION of Church and State = is clearly to remind, prevent, and safeguard against the intrusion and over reach of government. The whole of the Constitution is not to guarantee and grant us rights = they ARE inalienable = the Constitution and Bill of Rights are to stop Government and Remind Government and protect us from Government attempting to violate these as spelled out, and their are others not listed!
No laws restricting the rights of the people to pursue life through production, processing, and delivery of foods of any kind ever!
No foreign powers on US soil enforcing any action against US citizens.
NO government interference & manipulation of freedom of speech and the freedom of individuals to be and press/express free speech.
We do Not Consent. We do not comply. Freedom above all else....
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Why are you surprised? I didn't write that response.
You've read the response rather than watch the whole 45 minute video. Strange.
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If this virus was released from a Chinese biolab to destroy the west how come it has affected different countries differently?
Did they release it in stronger doses in UK & US than Germany or Greece?. Did they warn Vietnam & Taiwan (rival neigbouring countries?) Did they practice on Iran first (also an enemy of the west)?
And which freedoms is it exactly that our government has 'taken away'? The right to go out and die by catching an incurable invisible virus that was released by a Chinese lab for that very purpose and for you to spread it around your local vicinity for a couple of weeks in the process? It's hardly the right to vote or fair employment law.
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Why are you surprised? I didn't write that response.
You've read the response rather than watch the whole 45 minute video. Strange.
The point I was making Nudga is that I've always considered you to be a level headed individual. But that video, entitled The Worlds Greatest Cover Up, is viewed and followed by people who write the type of response I posted.
I couldn't watch all of it, the first 10 minutes had me thinking that this guy is a complete nutter, he's defying the whole of the scientific community by claiming this Covid 19 isn't a virus at all. Yet he's no scientific training at all. Just plainly baffling.
I shared a beer with David Icke once upon a time, and I remember after half an hour or so I thought that he was a decent chap, but his brain is wired up wrong, just completely on another planet, this guy reminds me of him.
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Shared a beer with David Icke? Couldn't you have bought one each? Tight sods!
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Why are you surprised? I didn't write that response.
You've read the response rather than watch the whole 45 minute video. Strange.
The point I was making Nudga is that I've always considered you to be a level headed individual. But that video, entitled The Worlds Greatest Cover Up, is viewed and followed by people who write the type of response I posted.
I couldn't watch all of it, the first 10 minutes had me thinking that this guy is a complete nutter, he's defying the whole of the scientific community by claiming this Covid 19 isn't a virus at all. Yet he's no scientific training at all. Just plainly baffling.
I shared a beer with David Icke once upon a time, and I remember after half an hour or so I thought that he was a decent chap, but his brain is wired up wrong, just completely on another planet, this guy reminds me of him.
Martin, just because I shared it for Axholme Lion, doesn't mean I have those beliefs.
I said in opening this thread that I would share alternative news, not all of it is necessarily my view point.
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Not many on here want alternative views. It's an echo chamber.
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Reasoned, articulated views which can then be properly debated, are always welcome.
Random statements without reasoned arguments are the problem ones.
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It's a football forum, not a university lecture hall.
I've shared videos of proffesors and professionals and they get shot down as cranks.
Plus I have eyes and ears.
Have you seen the restart of the bundesliga?
I see subs and coaches wearing masks and anti social distancing on the bench but the players can play contact sport and get in a defensive wall on free kicks.
I see politicians, advisors and proffesors breaking there own draconian laws.
I hear stories from real people about why family members went to hospital and what they actually died of but a different reason put on the death certificate.
I hear nurses are questioning the above and wondering why the wards aren't busy.
Some question the treatment given also.
Just because some of us aren't able to hypothesise the shit out of any given subject with song and verse (and graphs, which can also be manufactured), doesn't mean our thoughts and questions are any less valid than anybody else's and then rubbished as random statements.
I have tried to share a lot more but, mysteriously they get removed from the Internet.
If you or anybody else doesn't feel that this thread isn't articulated enough, move on, don't read it or block the thread.
There appears to be only a handful of people posting nowadays, some are that narcissistic they are answering nigh on every single post.
A couple of months ago we had daily updates of death rates, death rate league tables, death graphs etc.
Now the deaths are dropping, we don't see the daily death rates, we just hear about the 2nd wave and more and more and more politics.
I believe that what we saw in March and April WAS the 2nd wave.
So many people were very ill in November and December with a different, shitty virus that knocked the stuffing out of them for a couple of months, my mum included.
It's my belief that we are being conditioned into this "new normal" and that things will never be the same until we have a vaccine.
THIS, is the perfect time to be drumming it into people about eating the right food , drinking the right fluids, getting more exercise, fresh air and sun light.
But no, sadly nothing.
Our children will go back to school with these new normal anti social distancing rules and eventually it will be normal behaviour for them.
That scares me more than this virus.
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Sorry I didn’t explain myself properly. I didn’t mean every point raised should have reams and reams of back up evidence to be taken seriously, just something to support the opinion.
For example, you raised an opinion that the peak in March/April was the second wave - your reasoning was an observation of something happening with similar illness around December.
That’s a great example of an alternative view which could subsequently be debated, ie what was going on in December.?
My response was to AL who claimed that alternate views are unwelcome, but IMHO he/she is wrong.
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Nudga.
I'll not take offence at you suggesting I'm "manufacturing" graphs as part of some conspiracy. But you are so, so wrong on that mate. I'm beginning to think you are beyond being able to discuss this.
You are consistently ignoring ALL the welter of evidence in one direction, and pointing out stuff that is consistently and demonstrably incorrect.
And when it's pointed out as incorrect, what do you do? You ignore the mainstream evidence again and post more conspiracy theory nonsense.
As I keep saying, for your approach to be correct, you need millions of medics, nurses, coroner's and local politicians in every country in the world to be in on this. And you need them all to be taking the data in precisely the same way.
Really? You honestly believe that?
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It's a football forum, not a university lecture hall.
I've shared videos of proffesors and professionals and they get shot down as cranks.
Plus I have eyes and ears.
Have you seen the restart of the bundesliga?
I see subs and coaches wearing masks and anti social distancing on the bench but the players can play contact sport and get in a defensive wall on free kicks.
I see politicians, advisors and proffesors breaking there own draconian laws.
I hear stories from real people about why family members went to hospital and what they actually died of but a different reason put on the death certificate.
I hear nurses are questioning the above and wondering why the wards aren't busy.
Some question the treatment given also.
Just because some of us aren't able to hypothesise the shit out of any given subject with song and verse (and graphs, which can also be manufactured), doesn't mean our thoughts and questions are any less valid than anybody else's and then rubbished as random statements.
I have tried to share a lot more but, mysteriously they get removed from the Internet.
If you or anybody else doesn't feel that this thread isn't articulated enough, move on, don't read it or block the thread.
There appears to be only a handful of people posting nowadays, some are that narcissistic they are answering nigh on every single post.
A couple of months ago we had daily updates of death rates, death rate league tables, death graphs etc.
Now the deaths are dropping, we don't see the daily death rates, we just hear about the 2nd wave and more and more and more politics.
I believe that what we saw in March and April WAS the 2nd wave.
So many people were very ill in November and December with a different, shitty virus that knocked the stuffing out of them for a couple of months, my mum included.
It's my belief that we are being conditioned into this "new normal" and that things will never be the same until we have a vaccine.
THIS, is the perfect time to be drumming it into people about eating the right food , drinking the right fluids, getting more exercise, fresh air and sun light.
But no, sadly nothing.
Our children will go back to school with these new normal anti social distancing rules and eventually it will be normal behaviour for them.
That scares me more than this virus.
Excellent post.
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Have you taken on board my responses AL.? Particularly the latter one.?
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Have you taken on board my responses AL.? Particularly the latter one.?
Yes. Earlier in the thread I stated my opinion that this virus was man made in China for various reasons, obviously I can't prove that, no one can either way, but it does not make it an invalid opinion just because the BBC or the Guardian don't say so.
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AL
And every security service in the world that has looked into this and found no evidence it was man made?
And the virologists who have looked at the genomics and found none of the tell-tale markers that it was artificial?
Are they all lifting your shirt?
On what do you base your opinion that it is man made?
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5440785/amp/Killer-flu-outbreak-blame-42-spike-deaths.html?__twitter_impression=true
Why the lockdown now then?
December 2017, 45,000 deaths
January 2018, 64,000 deaths.
A 42% spike in deaths in a two month period.
I didn't even know at the time. No lockdown and no fear campaign. Why?
https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/2020/05/25/horowitz-the-cdc-confirms-remarkably-low-coronavirus-death-rate-where-is-the-media/amp?__twitter_impression=true
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Was it a global thing Nudga.?
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https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-5440785/amp/Killer-flu-outbreak-blame-42-spike-deaths.html?__twitter_impression=true
Why the lockdown now then?
December 2017, 45,000 deaths
January 2018, 64,000 deaths.
A 42% spike in deaths in a two month period.
I didn't even know at the time. No lockdown and no fear campaign. Why?
https://www.theblaze.com/op-ed/2020/05/25/horowitz-the-cdc-confirms-remarkably-low-coronavirus-death-rate-where-is-the-media/amp?__twitter_impression=true
Nudga
Two reasons.
1) CV-19 has a far higher mortality rate than seasonal flu. Around 1% of the people who catch it die, compared to about 0.15% of people who catch flu.
That means that A LOT more people would die from an uncontrolled CV-19 outbreak. Probably 3-500k.
2) CV-19 is a lot more virulent than seasonal flu. The R number is about 4 when it isn't controlled, compared to below 2 for seasonal flu.
That means an uncontrolled epidemic would spread a lot faster. That means the epidemic peak would come faster and a hell of a lot more people would be infected at the same time. It's estimated that at an uncontrolled peak CV-19 outbreak, we would have over 1 million people needing hospitalisation. But we only have about 100k beds.
Stop and think what you are saying. This epidemic has been as bad as a very bad flu outbreak EVEN WITH AN UNPRECEDENTED LOCKDOWN!
That graph I posted a couple of days ago tells it all. Without the lockdown, deaths around the entire world were doubling every 3-4 days.
Question for you.
What do you think was going to stop that in the absence of a lockdown?
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Probably lots of bluster and bolloxs
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AL pussy! You live in the posh eat part of 'Doncaster'
Support Millwall.
Cant buy bread?
Sorry,aurocorrect there as I have my phone on different languages.
Flat cap,Barbour. And cant buy bread???
Give up lad. Lies
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Shielding the elderly and the sick PROPERLY.
As in, use the nightingale hospitals instead of transferring the elderly from covid wards to care homes.
And again, stating EXACTLY what people died of instead of just striking them off as Covid deaths.
But we've been there already. You said they were too busy in unprecedented times to do this properly.
They were busier in Dec 17 and Jan 18.
IDM,globally, not sure, I haven't checked but I'm sure a lot of people died as a result of the Syrian conflict.
Is that still ongoing?
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AL pussy! You live in the posh eat part of 'Doncaster'
Support Millwall.
Cant buy bread?
Sorry,aurocorrect there as I have my phone on different languages.
Flat cap,Barbour. And cant buy bread???
Give up lad. Lies
Ha ha. The Albion bakery only does contactless now.
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AL
And every security service in the world that has looked into this and found no evidence it was man made?
And the virologists who have looked at the genomics and found none of the tell-tale markers that it was artificial?
Are they all lifting your shirt?
On what do you base your opinion that it is man made?
Because the Chinese have a lab creating viruses just down the road and they are not having it all there own way economically anymore. It's easier for them to lose a few thousand of their own this way rather than to start throwing missiles at each other and still get the result of screwing over the West that they want. Also no one is looking at what they are getting away with in Hong Kong, very convenient. I may be wrong, who knows, but who's to say that this is not the case?
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https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/05/why-barnard-castle/amp/
Coincidence?
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Nudga.
Really?
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https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/05/why-barnard-castle/amp/
Coincidence?
Could be just a coincidence - given the blatant lies we have witnessed, who knows.?
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Shielding the elderly and the sick PROPERLY.
As in, use the nightingale hospitals instead of transferring the elderly from covid wards to care homes.
And again, stating EXACTLY what people died of instead of just striking them off as Covid deaths.
But we've been there already. You said they were too busy in unprecedented times to do this properly.
They were busier in Dec 17 and Jan 18.
IDM,globally, not sure, I haven't checked but I'm sure a lot of people died as a result of the Syrian conflict.
Is that still ongoing?
Nudga
But it wasn't just the elderly who were needing hospitalisation.
This report sets out CoVid19 hospitalisations in March in America.
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/pdfs/mm6915e3-H.pdf
50-64 year olds had a hospitalisation rate more than half that of 65+.
18-49 year olds had a hospitalisation rate about 1/4 that of the 65+ cohort.
So even if you totally lockdown down ALL pensioners but left those of working age free to spread the virus between themselves, you would still have massively overwhelmed the NHS. And I do mean "massively".
And that is before you take into account other effects. If you let 60% of the working population catch the virus, even if half had no symptoms, you'd still have had something like 10 million not hospitalised, but unable to work. All at the same time. For maybe a month. And that would have included key workers. So how would you have got food delivered? How would you have treated people in hospital? Etc. Etc.
To be honest, it is batshit to think that all the Govt's of the world are choosing to f**k up their economies when there was a perfectly simply way of dealing with this without economic carnage.
There wasn't.
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https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/05/why-barnard-castle/amp/
Coincidence?
Wouldn't it have been easier to pick up the phone?
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It would have been easier to stay at home but he didn't.
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How many people take their wife and kids along for clandestine meetings with nefarious evil companies?
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I have :thumbsup:
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I have :thumbsup:
Trips to Elland Road don’t count... ;)
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How many people take their wife and kids along for clandestine meetings with nefarious evil companies?
Hang on. If he had come out and said:
my trip to Barnard Castle was completely within the rules as it was for work purposes to conclude the signing of a £multi-million contract for a new virus that will save millions of lives in the future
as opposed to
I went for a 30 miles drive with my wife and child just to see if I was fit to drive by testing my eyesight on public roads
which one do you think the public would say, yeah, I'm alright with that, to?
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Going great for Sweden now.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1287304/sweden-protests-coronavirus-death-toll-herd-immunity-Europe-covid19-news
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Going great for Sweden now.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1287304/sweden-protests-coronavirus-death-toll-herd-immunity-Europe-covid19-news
Sweden. 42 deaths per 100,000 population and STILL looking at a massive recession because the people have locked down themselves.
Norway. Right next door. 4 deaths per 100,000 because they locked down early and hard.
And the response from the genius behind Sweden's policy? "Well I might have been wrong, but I'd be surprised."
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Quote.
As I keep saying, for your approach to be correct, you need millions of medics, nurses, coroner's and local politicians in every country in the world to be in on this. And you need them all to be taking the data in precisely the same way.
Really? You honestly believe that?
Well it's easy enough to do. There are 1.2 billion Roman Catholics in the world who follow an imaginary higher being with the organisation worth around £10 Billion quid.
Amazing considering its child abuse history.
There are around 1.8 billion Muslims in the world who follow a different imaginary higher being and their human rights record are gold standard in some countries.
And then we have other imaginary higher beings from different countries and so on and so on.
All you need is a thousand power crazy Kitsons to control the power crazy Kitsons beneath them who then control the normal people adhering to medical protocols and new information on new viruses.
I'd imagine it would be very, very easy to discredit and ruin the career of a professional that dare speak out.
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Quote.
As I keep saying, for your approach to be correct, you need millions of medics, nurses, coroner's and local politicians in every country in the world to be in on this. And you need them all to be taking the data in precisely the same way.
Really? You honestly believe that?
Well it's easy enough to do. There are 1.2 billion Roman Catholics in the world who follow an imaginary higher being with the organisation worth around £10 Billion quid.
Amazing considering its child abuse history.
There are around 1.8 billion Muslims in the world who follow a different imaginary higher being and their human rights record are gold standard in some countries.
And then we have other imaginary higher beings from different countries and so on and so on.
All you need is a thousand power crazy Kitsons to control the power crazy Kitsons beneath them who then control the normal people adhering to medical protocols and new information on new viruses.
I'd imagine it would be very, very easy to discredit and ruin the career of a professional that dare speak out.
How to offend 3 billion people in one forum post. Got to be some sort of record there...
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Wow, it's had 3 billion views already?
Fake outrage.
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Wow, it's had 3 billion views already?
Fake outrage.
Outage? Who’s outraged? Not me. I think your views are a bit silly, but you’re entitled to share them. Definitely not outraged though.
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Hmm..
Religions whether the belief is valid or not, take decades or even centuries to spread to the numbers you mention.
A virus pandemic takes weeks, maybe a few months.
Coronavirus is imaginary.??
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Hmm..
Religions whether the belief is valid or not, take decades or even centuries to spread to the numbers you mention.
A virus pandemic takes weeks, maybe a few months.
Coronavirus is imaginary.??
Have you ever seen a coronavirus 🤣
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Worth reiterating (shouldn't need to but..) that the figures the government releases are based on positive tests. They are not based on medical reports, doctors or coroners.
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I hadn't thought of that argument Nudga.
Good one.
I mean, it's not as if Christians never violently disagree with Christians is it?
Or Muslims. They never violently disagree with other Muslims, do they?
But just for clarification, are you saying that scientists' claims that they operate by the Scientific Method, where everything is open to criticism, are actually b*llocks? They are actually part of a conspiracy where they regularly fake their results to please their Masters, because they are terrified of being turfed out otherwise?
Cos it looks a lot like that's what you're saying.
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I am posing this question, yes.
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Surely the whole thing about scientists is that they are constantly providing theories and results that are examined and assessed by their peers. Their reputation would be in tatters if they signed up to conspiracies and their place and respect in their field lost.
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Idler. That is precisely it.
Scientists DO get ostracized from the scientific community. But the ones who do are ones who have been demonstrated to falsify data, or who push opinions which are consistently contradicted by the evidence.
The whole point about science is that there is no Authority like God or Allah that defines The Truth. Opinions are constantly challenged and questioned and the people who become successful and famous are precisely the ones who say, "No, you are all wrong!" And then SHOW why they are all wrong.
Like Einstein demonstrating that the concept of absolute time and space were wrong. Like Copernicus demonstrating that the Earth went round the Sun, not vice versa.
If people truly believe that scientists are part of some evil conspiracy to suppress the truth and do only what some shadowy cabal of Masters tell them to do, then God f**king help us, because we are in the process of chucking out 500 years of rational, logical development that has overcome fear and ignorance, in favour of batshittery.
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Any how, if this shit show doesn't produce any decent, angry politically motivated music, then we all need to share responsibility that we've brought our kids up to be spoiled, pampered, entitled little shits.
Have a good day everyone.
(I'm not changing Subject BTW, it was just a thought I had whilst listening to London Calling.
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I couldn’t agree more Nudga, but please, not Billy Bragg.!
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I've been listening to The Lifeboat by Frank Turner. Seems quite apt.
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Couldn't agree more Nudga.
Feels like we've had generations of dull as f**k middle class kids whining insipidly about how bad their life is on records or the same f**king dance track reworked a million times. Feels like a long time since music combined edginess with political awareness.
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Couldn't agree more Nudga.
Feels like we've had generations of dull as f**k middle class kids whining insipidly about how bad their life is on records or the same f**king dance track reworked a million times. Feels like a long time since music combined edginess with political awareness.
"Masters of War" by Bob Dylan. Now that IS a long time ago.
Gets into your soul though.
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Saw this and thought I would post...
https://www.facebook.com/PhilShortUK/posts/10158470821503454
Not sure if it's in the right area, and I know that many will probably jump on me for posting; however, I think it is worth posting, if only to reflect a different view...
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I read that post, and the fundamental flaw of the argument (people trying to stop brexit) is that brexit happened on 31 Jan this year.
The Uk has left the political alliance that is the EU. All that remains is to finalise the trade agreements etc, but any delay or extension to that process isn’t about stopping brexit, as he claimed.
Also he berated the fact that Cummings is being pilloried when others like Kinnock aren’t.
He claims Cummings didn’t write the lockdown rules, but doesn’t give any proof of that. Even if he didn’t write them, he would have been expected to advise the PM.?
Cummings is focussed on because he IS part of the government organisation, when the others he lists aren’t.
No problem with you posting the link MM
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https://twitter.com/ProfKarolSikora/status/1266291551363231744?s=19
This is what I've been saying.
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What have you been saying Nudga?
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Can you open the link?
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https://twitter.com/ProfKarolSikora/status/1266291551363231744?s=19
This is what I've been saying.
So for that example the coronavirus death total goes up by one, but the cancer total goes down by one..
If you extrapolate and then look at average monthly deaths year on year, you would then expect the year on year deaths to go down excluding coronavirus.
But aren’t there more excess deaths than average this year even after taking off the coronavirus ones?
I have no doubt that the actual cause of some deaths may be I accurately recorded, or that some people who were very poorly may have died due to their existing conditions being accelerated by the virus.
But certainly not enough to negate what the virus has done.?
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What about the possibility of cancer treatments being put on hold that were keeping them alive?
A text message I got from a friend.
from a nurse at st catherines - patients going there from DRI for end of life care - many have been ill with COPD for years - they are all being recorded as covid deaths
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Only about 62,000 excess deaths over the past 10 weeks IDM...
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Nudga.
How many people normally die of cancer between March and May?
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I don't know, but a lot of cancer patients are not currently getting the same treatment.
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Maybe you should go and look and inform yourself?
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So does it not make sense to you that the treatment people were getting last year are not getting this year?
They don't even have to be tested positive for a covid death FFS.
So that text from a nurse is wrong?
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Can you open the link?
Nope. I dont particularly want to either. Too many fruit cakes out there without reading another one.
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He's an oncologist.
So you're just here to fish then?
Jog on.
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He's right. If that has happened, it is wrong and should be corrected.
But that ain't happened half a million times and counting all round the world.
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If you want a REAL conspiracy Nudga, have a look what is happening in Florida.
They have a remarkably low number of CV-19 recorded deaths. Only just over 2000, which is about a fifth of the rate per head that we have in the UK.
Interestingly though, they have recorded many, many more pneumonia deaths. In fact so far this year, they have recorded 5,100 pneumonia deaths.
The usual average for the first 5 months of the year? 918.
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What about the possibility of cancer treatments being put on hold that were keeping them alive?
A text message I got from a friend.
from a nurse at st catherines - patients going there from DRI for end of life care - many have been ill with COPD for years - they are all being recorded as covid deaths
it’s the same at the nursing home my niece works at 3 have died and been put down as Covid yet they have not had a positive test yet from anyone living there, that’s not to say they didn’t have it thou
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Go on then. If this "misreporting"[1] is due to conspiracy rather than cock up, ask yourself who benefits? Why would so many health workers be part of it? What do they gain?
In the case of Florida, there is an obvious conclusion. The civil service in the USA is political. The state is Republican run and is usually on a knifedge politically. There is a lot to be gained by a Republican administration painting a picture that it has handled the crisis better than it actually has done.
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https://twitter.com/ProfKarolSikora/status/1266291551363231744?s=19
This is what I've been saying.
Nudga, a friend of mine told me that an older relative of his has died, never been tested for the virus but had it on the death certificate as cause of death.
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Hound.
Yes. Because doctors do so if the patient is symptomatic.
And yes, they will get some wrong. Both ways.
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I crossed the road today to avoid someone who was coming towards me. Halfway across a bloody car flew round the corner and nearly wiped me out. I thought afterwards had I been killed would I have been classed as a victim of Covid?
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I crossed the road today to avoid someone who was coming towards me. Halfway across a bloody car flew round the corner and nearly wiped me out. I thought afterwards had I been killed would I have been classed as a victim of Covid?
To avoid someone who was coming towards you BB? I didn't think Sydney was back in England yet.
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Come to think of it SS it might have been him. Just after the incident, I said: "lovely weather we're having!" And he took the Guardian newspaper that he had under his arm, opened it to the weather forecast page and said........."No, it's raining!"
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Since they started recording covid-19 deaths in March the UK has had 60000 excess deaths - that is 60000 deaths more than there would normally be expected to be at this time of year.
38000 of these are officially recorded by the government of having coronavirus as a cause of death.
What did the other 22000 die of?
And people are trying to claim we have over-reported coronavirus deaths!!!
https://www.ft.com/content/6b4c784e-c259-4ca4-9a82-648ffde71bf0
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A lack of medical care for other illnesses like COPD, cancer etc??
An indirect covid death. Resources going to one department whilst other wards are nigh on empty.
And yes, I do know this as fact.
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And it's the same conspiracy from Jakarta to Jerusalem to Rio de Janeiro.
All these medics and nurses and epidemiologists all in on the same scam for the purpose of...well, what?
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A lack of medical care for other illnesses like COPD, cancer etc??
An indirect covid death. Resources going to one department whilst other wards are nigh on empty.
And yes, I do know this as fact.
Then please put up a link to the ONS statistics on the cause of death for this 'fact'.
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Go on then. If this "misreporting"[1] is due to conspiracy rather than cock up, ask yourself who benefits? Why would so many health workers be part of it? What do they gain?
In the case of Florida, there is an obvious conclusion. The civil service in the USA is political. The state is Republican run and is usually on a knifedge politically. There is a lot to be gained by a Republican administration painting a picture that it has handled the crisis better than it actually has done.
Last health scare they had in Florida was that outbreak of pregnant Chads which cost Gore the Preidency of course
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https://metro.co.uk/2020/06/04/ex-mi6-boss-claims-coronavirus-started-lab-12802460/
I reckon he'll be right.
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Karol Sikora is a crank with an agenda.
He's been admonished previously by Imperial College London for making a false claim about having an association with them and lying about having an honorary doctorate.
He's heavily invested in private healthcare and is a vocal proponent of privatising the NHS.
All that notwithstanding, he is a medical professional so his views should hold some credence. Except that as he well knows and has as many other medical professionals have reminded him in the responses to his tweet, there are very often numerous contributing factors on a death certificate. Anyone showing symptoms of CoViD-19 would have this noted as a contributory factor.
But all this is the social media equivalent of a red-top printing a headline on the front page on Monday and a retraction in very small print on page twelve on Thursday. The damage is done.
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Figures from NHS England of people whose death certificate shows death from ONLY coronavirus.
0-19: 3
20-39: 32
40-59: 244
60-79: 538
80+: 448
Total: 1265
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All along we have known that its not as likely to kill those in rude health, its its effect on those with weakened systems thats the greatest impact hence locking down those at risk
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I remember everyone being locked down.
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Yes, to prevent those at lower risk spreading the disease to the more vulnerable members of society.
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There were other ways.
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Go on then. What was the most common co-morbidity? And what did we know about the vulnerability of people with that disease back in March?
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Oh hello Harold Shitmum, fancy that eh.
Well we don't know for sure because if a patient went in with a runny nose and died of cancer, they didn't even have to test did they.
It was a f**kin visual diagnosis.
We knew quite early on about who was vulnerable, the Italian death figures told us that.
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: Coronavirus
« Reply #48 on 24-02-2020, 13:09:15 by Metalmicky »
LikeQuote
Interesting to see the death rate by age...
COVID-19 - Fatality Rate by AGE:
*Death Rate = (number of deaths / number of cases) = probability of dying if infected by the virus (%). This probability differs depending on the age group. The percentage shown below does NOT represent in any way the share of deaths by age group. Rather, it represents, for a person in a given age group, the risk of dying if infected with COVID-19.
AGE - DEATH RATE*
80+ years old - 14.8%
70-79 years old - 8.0%
60-69 years old - 3.6%
50-59 years old - 1.3%
40-49 years old - 0.4%
30-39 years old - 0.2%
20-29 years old - 0.2%
10-19 years old - 0.2%
0-9 years old - no fatalities
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Nudga.
The information on what is on death certificates is out there.
25% of deaths were in people who also had diabetes. That is by far the biggest co-morbidity. We didn't know in March that would be the case.
There are something like 4-5 million people in the country with diabetes. If we hadn't locked down and the virus cases had kept on doubling every 3-4 days, think how many of those would have caught the virus.
Easy to say that there could have been a different policy on lockdown. How would you have addressed those vulnerabilities that we didn't know existed?
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Or look at it in a simpler way.
There are about 17 million people in the UK between 50-69 years old.
If we hadn't locked down, by early May, about 60-70% of the population would have caught the virus.
So that would be about 10 or 12 million infections in that age group.
The figures that you have just posted say about 2.5% of that age group who have caught the virus have died.
2.5% of 10-12 million is 250-300,000.
Dead.
Nearly all in a 5-6 week period.
Except it would have been FAR higher than that because the 2.5% fatality rate is based on a situation where critically ill people got ICU beds. Without the lockdown, that would have ended in early April. And most of that 10-12 million would have been left to fend for themselves.
I know you will ignore that and find some other batshit nonsense to argue your point, but out here in the sane world, that is what we know damn well would have happened.
You have the privilege of indulging in your conspiracy theories because you aren't living in that alternative world where that happened. Because (albeit too late) we did the right thing.
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https://twitter.com/AOECOIN/status/1273300221003534337?s=19
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https://twitter.com/AOECOIN/status/1273300221003534337?s=19
That's some serious screwed up shit being pushed out that company. A Federal crime?
Alternative Omega Energy? Based in Cambodia?
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https://twitter.com/AOECOIN/status/1273300221003534337?s=19
That's some serious screwed up shit being pushed out that company. A Federal crime?
Alternative Omega Energy? Based in Cambodia?
With a website that makes Sequentia Capital's look like a Silicon Valley star.
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😂😂 What ever.
Just thought the clip kind of backed up what I was saying a few weeks back, as in, the numbers are/were being inflated.
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😂😂 What ever.
Just thought the clip kind of backed up what I was saying a few weeks back, as in, the numbers are/were being inflated.
But why though Nudga? This government is in the shit for the way its handled this crisis, we're in a massive economic downturn, so why would they inflate the figures? It doesn't make any sense.
And I should have also said, that if you are posting something like this it would be more understandable if the tweet came from somebody who had some credibility unlike the one you quoted.
And to address the content of the post, for me its really simple, if it looks like a dog, barks like a dog, and eats like a dog then its probably a dog, and testing it after its died wouldn't make any sense.
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Whichever way you look at it tens of thousands have died that wouldn’t normally.
What explanation is there other than the virus?
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Well done everyone for debating these issues, .... lots of stones turned, a few left unturned......
Plots, sub-plots, and lots and lots of stats eagerly provided to either direct or misdirect....
Many will cower in their homes mulling their own mortality in a world were 5ft apart might kill you but 7 is safer.....
And some will opt out, .... exempt themselves from the barrage of conflicting data being issued...
Well done To all that are believers and nonbelievers.....let’s see what miracles await us in the near future
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Interesting how the government seems to be sidelining SAGE in favour of the new Joint Biosecurity Centre.
From the Institute for Government's website:
The government has not said that the JBC will replace SAGE, but from the information available we can expect that the new centre will have a more active role in advising ministers than SAGE. SAGE co-ordinates and presents scientific advice to decision-makers in government. The JBC will make specific recommendations on action the government might take to deal with disease outbreaks. It sits within the NHS Test and Trace service in the Department of Health and Social Care led by Dido Harding.
The government has also said that it will consider whether the JBC should form part of an extended and ongoing infrastructure to address biosecurity threats. SAGE is an ad hoc grouping with a changing membership to deal with a wide variety of emergencies.
A good thing or a bad thing?
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Interesting how the government seems to be sidelining SAGE in favour of the new Joint Biosecurity Centre.
From the Institute for Government's website:
The government has not said that the JBC will replace SAGE, but from the information available we can expect that the new centre will have a more active role in advising ministers than SAGE. SAGE co-ordinates and presents scientific advice to decision-makers in government. The JBC will make specific recommendations on action the government might take to deal with disease outbreaks. It sits within the NHS Test and Trace service in the Department of Health and Social Care led by Dido Harding.
The government has also said that it will consider whether the JBC should form part of an extended and ongoing infrastructure to address biosecurity threats. SAGE is an ad hoc grouping with a changing membership to deal with a wide variety of emergencies.
A good thing or a bad thing?
On the face of it it seems sensible.
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😂😂 What ever.
Just thought the clip kind of backed up what I was saying a few weeks back, as in, the numbers are/were being inflated.
But why though Nudga? This government is in the shit for the way its handled this crisis, we're in a massive economic downturn, so why would they inflate the figures? It doesn't make any sense.
And I should have also said, that if you are posting something like this it would be more understandable if the tweet came from somebody who had some credibility unlike the one you quoted.
And to address the content of the post, for me its really simple, if it looks like a dog, barks like a dog, and eats like a dog then its probably a dog, and testing it after its died wouldn't make any sense.
Martin, listen to the clip. It doesn't matter one single bit who retweeted it as its from a daily briefing from Vallance on the BBC.
Yes the government are in the shit and making a shit job of it.
Do you think that they care? Not one apology over anything they've lied about, not one.
But it has become clear that some at the top table are lining there own pockets, they all have a conflict of interest somewhere along the line.
The spike in deaths will probably be attributed to cancer patients, patients with heart disease etc dying earlier in the year because of a lack of treatment and some will have succumbed to the virus because they were extremely weak anyway.
Karol Sikora is suggesting this also, he's very worried that there is going be a very high number of people dying of cancer for the rest of the year due to not having operations and getting treatment.
Bear in mind, hospitals are not busy either.
Then lump in the fact that a high percentage died in care homes, again, frail old people that weren't shielded properly and others shunted from hospitals into care homes.
I don't just get bits of info from twitter either.
And for your last analogy, if it looks like cancer, feels like cancer, smells like cancer then it's probably cv19.
Refer back to what Vallance said.
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Nudga.
The question remains.
Why?
In every country in the world.
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Interesting how the government seems to be sidelining SAGE in favour of the new Joint Biosecurity Centre.
From the Institute for Government's website:
The government has not said that the JBC will replace SAGE, but from the information available we can expect that the new centre will have a more active role in advising ministers than SAGE. SAGE co-ordinates and presents scientific advice to decision-makers in government. The JBC will make specific recommendations on action the government might take to deal with disease outbreaks. It sits within the NHS Test and Trace service in the Department of Health and Social Care led by Dido Harding.
The government has also said that it will consider whether the JBC should form part of an extended and ongoing infrastructure to address biosecurity threats. SAGE is an ad hoc grouping with a changing membership to deal with a wide variety of emergencies.
A good thing or a bad thing?
Yes, I am now more convinced that the government is doing the right thing and getting the correct public health advice now that it will be taking its advice from people seconded from GCQH and lead by a 'senior spy'.
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I don't know, I'm not privvy to that information.
My hunch is that money and power are behind it.
Big tech firms , big pharmaceutical firms will all cash in on this as well corrupt government officials.
There's talk of vaccines being ready in September, that is bloody quick don't you think.
There were huge conferences and meetings in 2019 about pandemics and vaccinating the world.
Great foresight.
As for economies, it's easy to magic billions of money (we were told once that there wasn't a magic money tree) from somewhere.
And debt is good, but not for foot soldiers like you and me as its us, our kids and their kids who will pay for it.
Either that, or crash the world economy and press the reset button and grow new magic money trees.
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Nudga.
1) Your approach, as I've said before, requires every PM, every medic, every scientific adviser and every coroner IN THE WORLD to be in on the conspiracy. Don't you think that strains credibility?
2) Pandemics and vaccination. We'd previously had two near-miss pandemics in the 2000s. SARS in 2002 and Swine Flu in 2009-10. We know what pandemics can do. The Spanish Flu killed about 1 person in every 40 in the world a hundred years ago. Scientists and responsible Governments would have been criminally negligent not to be planning how to address the inevitable next pandemic, that was always coming.
3) Magic money tree. I'm with you there. There was ALWAYS the means for us to spend more on public services. Always. It was a POLITICAL trick by the Tories to refuse to do so under the Austerity argument. It was economic madness.
They've had to spend now because of the scale of the emergency. That is THE biggest reason why this absolutely is NOT a conspiracy. The last thing this lot want to do is increase Govt debt. It goes against every nerve and fibre of their existence.
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Yep, I hear what you're saying and I respect your view and I agree that my thoughts are quite extreme.
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Interesting how the government seems to be sidelining SAGE in favour of the new Joint Biosecurity Centre.
From the Institute for Government's website:
The government has not said that the JBC will replace SAGE, but from the information available we can expect that the new centre will have a more active role in advising ministers than SAGE. SAGE co-ordinates and presents scientific advice to decision-makers in government. The JBC will make specific recommendations on action the government might take to deal with disease outbreaks. It sits within the NHS Test and Trace service in the Department of Health and Social Care led by Dido Harding.
The government has also said that it will consider whether the JBC should form part of an extended and ongoing infrastructure to address biosecurity threats. SAGE is an ad hoc grouping with a changing membership to deal with a wide variety of emergencies.
A good thing or a bad thing?
Apparently the government were being forced into publishing the minutes for SAGE.
https://twitter.com/simondolan/status/1274731545568382976?s=19
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I just love this one from possibly the most ignorantly opinionated journalists at any of the broadsheet papers.
https://mobile.twitter.com/allisonpearson/status/1274744296965537794
Two thoughts.
1) There are 68 million people in the country. The number who took part in VE Day celebrations, or went to the beach in the heatwave, or went on protests is a tiny fraction of that. Anyone expecting those activities to leads to a rise like March has lost the right to be talked to like a grown up.
2) Social distancing doesn't work? Err...I wonder what that change in the curve in early April was due to then? You reckon the virus just took pity on us?
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I just love this one from possibly the most ignorantly opinionated journalists at any of the broadsheet papers.
https://mobile.twitter.com/allisonpearson/status/1274744296965537794
Two thoughts.
1) There are 68 million people in the country. The number who took part in VE Day celebrations, or went to the beach in the heatwave, or went on protests is a tiny fraction of that. Anyone expecting those activities to leads to a rise like March has lost the right to be talked to like a grown up.
2) Social distancing doesn't work? Err...I wonder what that change in the curve in early April was due to then? You reckon the virus just took pity on us?
BST, on your point one above, there was lots of reference on this very forum to those people and plenty suggested that we would see a spike in infections as a result.
I suppose that those posts were not discredited because they weren’t by a journalist that you don’t like?
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Hound. If you want to pay me to go full time at this, I'd be happy to respond to every post and fully fact check every one of mine. Let me know.
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Why are you saying that?
You spend as much time on this forum as anyone, probably more than most.
Are you saying that you didn’t see any posts about what I mentioned above?
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Nudga,
Your old pal Sikora has a bit of previous, and is being called out by others in the health debate;
https://twitter.com/drbenwhite/status/1274645903056539648
Just saying, like!
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Nudga,
Your old pal Sikora has a bit of previous, and is being called out by others in the health debate;
https://twitter.com/drbenwhite/status/1274645903056539648
Just saying, like!
Yeah, looks like he's in a different boat in the same lake as other dodgy medical proffesionals.
W. H. O can you trust nowadays?
#justsayin
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Nudga,
Your old pal Sikora has a bit of previous, and is being called out by others in the health debate;
https://twitter.com/drbenwhite/status/1274645903056539648
Just saying, like!
Yeah, looks like he's in a different boat in the same lake as other dodgy medical proffesionals.
W. H. O can you trust nowadays?
#justsayin
I'd suggest you trust the ones who said back in early February that, unmitigated, the number of infected cases would double every 4-5 days (it was actually every 3-4, but close) and the infection fatality rate would be about 1-2% (1% is looking very much like it).
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Too many humans using too much resource..... “Acceptable attrition “ can and should solve the problem.....there doesn’t need to be a conspiracy regarding these little pandemics, the real issue is sustaining life beyond this century if we can escape global conflicts....( the tit for tats are happening ) .......
Justsaying