Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: wilts rover on May 11, 2020, 09:30:46 pm
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Posted without comment - although I like the comment at the end (good game this)
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-delay-transition-keir-starmer-boris-johnson-deal-eu-a9508136.html
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Smart from him really. He knows Brexit voters aren't keen on his anti-Brexit side, so he's not calling for an extension to keep them on side. It puts pressure on Boris, either we extend it and he looks weak to some Brexit voters or we crash out and he f**ks up the economy even more, which in the end won't look great.
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Precisely DO.
This is party politics returning. I'm struggling to see what else Starmer could or should do other than to say to Johnson, "you cooked up this shit storm. You sit down and eat it and don't expect me to sort it out for you, or give you a target to chuck it at."
We are in a totally different world to where we were 18 months ago when there was a chance of forming a political alliance to let the (by then) actual opinion of the majority prevail. That's gone now. Brexit is going to happen. Those who wanted it and worked for it need to own the consequences.
That starts with Johnson. Good luck to him on pushing through a policy that will shave more big chunks off an economy that has already had its worst shock for 300 years.
Brexit belongs to him. He masterminded it. He can manage it.
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Precisely DO.
This is party politics returning. I'm struggling to see what else Starmer could or should do other than to say to Johnson, "you cooked up this shit storm. You sit down and eat it and don't expect me to sort it out for you, or give you a target to chuck it at."
We are in a totally different world to where we were 18 months ago when there was a chance of forming a political alliance to let the (by then) actual opinion of the majority prevail. That's gone now. Brexit is going to happen. Those who wanted it and worked for it need to own the consequences.
That starts with Johnson. Good luck to him on pushing through a policy that will shave more big chunks off an economy that has already had its worst shock for 300 years.
Brexit belongs to him. He masterminded it. He can manage it.
Pretty much how I see it Billy , it's caused enough division in the Labour Party and it's right to let it go now .
Let's not get wrapped up in this thing .
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Sadly, Boris already has a get out of jail card, it's called Covid 19. The majority of ills post Brexit will be blamed on that, the remainder on the EU. And his followers and Brexiteers will lap it up.
Even a hard Brexit becomes easier for him to manage as CV19 won't be over by then and we will, in effect, roll seamlessly, (so far as blame is concerned), from one to another.
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My thoughts exactly Kato.
In a perverse way he's 'lucky' he has the Covid excuse to fall back on
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Don’t you think folks will remember all this bullshit next time a GE comes around.?
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Unfortunately IDM either those that voted for him and his party last time chose to ignore or forget his own an his party's failures and lies over the previous 10 years.
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Sadly, Boris already has a get out of jail card, it's called Covid 19. The majority of ills post Brexit will be blamed on that, the remainder on the EU. And his followers and Brexiteers will lap it up.
Even a hard Brexit becomes easier for him to manage as CV19 won't be over by then and we will, in effect, roll seamlessly, (so far as blame is concerned), from one to another.
He'll find it a bit difficult to explain away why everybody else's economy recovers after Covid while ours continues to go down the toilet though. Because it'll be either Brexit to blame, or his management of Covid/the economy.
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Unfortunately IDM either those that voted for him and his party last time chose to ignore or forget his own an his party's failures and lies over the previous 10 years.
The last GE was all about brexit and folks not wanting Corbyn. In a few weeks, Starmer has come across far better than Corbyn ever did. You have to hope that Starmer is genuine and not putting in a good face..
Next GE brexit will be completely done and dusted and we will know more about the after effects, as well as the performance of this government after coronavirus, and any more cock ups they may have.
If Starmer plays his cards right he could have a win next GE similar to Blair’s first.
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Even if Brexit was a failure would Brexit voters say it failed because of Boris or applaud him for giving them what they wanted?
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Unfortunately IDM either those that voted for him and his party last time chose to ignore or forget his own an his party's failures and lies over the previous 10 years.
The last GE was all about brexit and folks not wanting Corbyn. In a few weeks, Starmer has come across far better than Corbyn ever did. You have to hope that Starmer is genuine and not putting in a good face..
Next GE brexit will be completely done and dusted and we will know more about the after effects, as well as the performance of this government after coronavirus, and any more cock ups they may have.
If Starmer plays his cards right he could have a win next GE similar to Blair’s first.
Yep you're right the last election was certainly a mess of quite a few things with brexit front and centre.
Starmer is certainly not rushing headlong into it, I'm reminded of Paul Keating a very popular and witty labor PM that said to the then opposition leader ''I'm going to do you slowly''
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Unfortunately IDM either those that voted for him and his party last time chose to ignore or forget his own an his party's failures and lies over the previous 10 years.
The last GE was all about brexit and folks not wanting Corbyn. In a few weeks, Starmer has come across far better than Corbyn ever did. You have to hope that Starmer is genuine and not putting in a good face..
Next GE brexit will be completely done and dusted and we will know more about the after effects, as well as the performance of this government after coronavirus, and any more cock ups they may have.
If Starmer plays his cards right he could have a win next GE similar to Blair’s first.
I think Kier Starmer IS effective and totally genuine (as much as any politician can be more so than some). My worry is as with all opposition politicians he will be vilified for every tiny mistake / gaffe etc - and also he will have lost the bounce by the time the next GE rolls round and the electorate will have forgotten Coronavirus except for the annual street parties
I actually think B****t will never be over. The Tories (or half of them just never accepted we were part of it when we had a Referendum and converted our trial period to full blown Membership in the mid 70s and brought us to this point
So it is not beyond the bounds of possibility (almost certain imo) that a huge "movement" or grounswell of opinion will unite behind a notion or idea to rejoin at the very earliest opportunity. That will happen especially if people can see our "exit" has not gone well (and I make no judgements as I have no idea)
At that point the Politicians will have to again nail their colours to the mast and choose a path for their party and that is going to be problematic (if it happens) though as history shows Partys that were exposed and looked like they were never going to be in Government again ride out the storm and 5 or 10 years later heigh-ho they are re-elected.
So I dont think B****t will ever be totally over and just as an incoming Govt blames the last one for leaving the Country in a mess I can just imagine the B****t issue will be held up in the future as the moment things went wrong or it went right
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This is where back stabber Starmer has a history of undermining the government running back and forwards to his mates in Brussels and having meetings to undermine the governments position.
The EU meanwhile will be preoccupied with taking Germany to court in Luxembourg to override Germany's state court who have declared the Euro bond to save the economies of Greece, Spain, Italy, and France, from going tits up while they are members of the Euro.
They are facing the perfect economic storm over there., we are better out of it, and the EU as we know it will do well to survive, as soon as Poland and Hungary and the other eastern members are asked to chip in instead of taking out of the pot, stand by for a squabble.
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Unfortunately Brexit has already gone wrong Wolf I cannot see how anyone could see things improving on that front.
$170 Billion and Counting: The Cost of Brexit for the U.K.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-10/-170-billion-and-counting-the-cost-of-brexit-for-the-u-k
Added:
Oh well maybe selby
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Sadly, Boris already has a get out of jail card, it's called Covid 19. The majority of ills post Brexit will be blamed on that, the remainder on the EU. And his followers and Brexiteers will lap it up.
Even a hard Brexit becomes easier for him to manage as CV19 won't be over by then and we will, in effect, roll seamlessly, (so far as blame is concerned), from one to another.
He'll find it a bit difficult to explain away why everybody else's economy recovers after Covid while ours continues to go down the toilet though. Because it'll be either Brexit to blame, or his management of Covid/the economy.
You may be right to a degree Glynn, but he'll still have 'blame the EU for not giving us what we wanted' to fall back on! Too many people in this country are daft enough to believe it, sadly!
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Unless Johnson is truly insane, his negotiating position is a busted flush.
It relies on him genuinely being prepared to walk away without a trade deal in December.
Really?
In the current situation?
After seeing folk fist fighting over the last shit roll in Waitrose, are we REALLY going to choose to collapse our supply chains while we are still dealing with this epidemic?
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Unless Johnson is truly insane, his negotiating position is a busted flush.
It relies on him genuinely being prepared to walk away without a trade deal in December.
Really?
In the current situation?
After seeing folk fist fighting over the last shit roll in Waitrose, are we REALLY going to choose to collapse our supply chains while we are still dealing with this epidemic?
Aye, imagine the supermarket queues there'd be if the virus had've hit at the same time as No Deal happened.
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Unfortunately IDM either those that voted for him and his party last time chose to ignore or forget his own an his party's failures and lies over the previous 10 years.
The last GE was all about brexit and folks not wanting Corbyn. In a few weeks, Starmer has come across far better than Corbyn ever did. You have to hope that Starmer is genuine and not putting in a good face..
Next GE brexit will be completely done and dusted and we will know more about the after effects, as well as the performance of this government after coronavirus, and any more cock ups they may have.
If Starmer plays his cards right he could have a win next GE similar to Blair’s first.
As I've already said on here IDM, Starmer is a decent guy, and could well be a good Labour leader, or even a good Prime Minister.
However, there are two factions of people who have issues with him; Corbyn supporters and fans of Momentum; and Northern Brexit voters. For him to win a majority the size of Blair's in 1997, he MUST get all of them back on board.
I honestly can't see how he'll do it.
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Steve, he is also going to have to overcome the realignment of mostly London Boroughs constituencies that could win the Tories up to 20 more seats.
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Sydney, Joachim Land Md of the BDI germany's Industry Federation
" The carona virus has already cost very many jobs across Europe if the Brexit Transition phase expires without an agreement at the end of the year it would turn an already difficult situation to a catastrophe for the EU"
George Soros,
"Germany's ECB ruling may mean the end ofthe EU as we know it"
They are still undergoing quantative easing to spread the dept throughout all the countries in the EU. Germany and the northern states will not wear it mate.
Germany's tax payers are beginning to think it will never end, The best of luck to Brussels with that one.
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Unfortunately IDM either those that voted for him and his party last time chose to ignore or forget his own an his party's failures and lies over the previous 10 years.
The last GE was all about brexit and folks not wanting Corbyn. In a few weeks, Starmer has come across far better than Corbyn ever did. You have to hope that Starmer is genuine and not putting in a good face..
Next GE brexit will be completely done and dusted and we will know more about the after effects, as well as the performance of this government after coronavirus, and any more cock ups they may have.
If Starmer plays his cards right he could have a win next GE similar to Blair’s first.
As I've already said on here IDM, Starmer is a decent guy, and could well be a good Labour leader, or even a good Prime Minister.
However, there are two factions of people who have issues with him; Corbyn supporters and fans of Momentum; and Northern Brexit voters. For him to win a majority the size of Blair's in 1997, he MUST get all of them back on board.
I honestly can't see how he'll do it.
By the time of the next GE Corbyn will be political history.. the delivery of brexit, if not the after effects, will be the same.
Plus god knows what other clusterf**ks will have happened by then under Johnson’s “leadership”.
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Sydney, it is quite clear now, we would like a free trade deal similar to what other countries have got with the EU such as Canada, we also will not be beholden to the EU courts. If they do not agree that, then we leave at the end of the year and trade under World Trade rules.
The free trade rules are what we trade under now with other countries such as the USA so are known to both parties, the Eu courts will have no jurisdiction so there is nothing to agree only a few minor points, manufacturing standards we already adhere to and have agreed to the same standards or better.
We also already trade with nations under WTO rules, and both parties know the end date.
Barnier is not saying tic tock tic tock now, he is saying it is a short time to get an agreement. That is because it is his arse that is in the firing line buddy.
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Unfortunately IDM either those that voted for him and his party last time chose to ignore or forget his own an his party's failures and lies over the previous 10 years.
The last GE was all about brexit and folks not wanting Corbyn. In a few weeks, Starmer has come across far better than Corbyn ever did. You have to hope that Starmer is genuine and not putting in a good face..
Next GE brexit will be completely done and dusted and we will know more about the after effects, as well as the performance of this government after coronavirus, and any more cock ups they may have.
If Starmer plays his cards right he could have a win next GE similar to Blair’s first.
As I've already said on here IDM, Starmer is a decent guy, and could well be a good Labour leader, or even a good Prime Minister.
However, there are two factions of people who have issues with him; Corbyn supporters and fans of Momentum; and Northern Brexit voters. For him to win a majority the size of Blair's in 1997, he MUST get all of them back on board.
I honestly can't see how he'll do it.
And where exactly do Momentum have issues with him? In the pages of the right wing press?
Momentum's former National Coordinator was one of Starmer's main backers. This is what Momentum tweeted about him yesterday https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1259888498280067072
Its the Daily Mail, Daily Express & S*n that have issues with him. I wonder why they might not want him to be successful?
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Steve, he is also going to have to overcome the realignment of mostly London Boroughs constituencies that could win the Tories up to 20 more seats.
Bent B******s. Why with a landslide dont they just pass a Law saying they can never be voted out of power ever again .... bent B******s.
Yet one more reason we NEED PR of some sort
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Sydney, it is quite clear now, we would like a free trade deal similar to what other countries have got with the EU such as Canada, we also will not be beholden to the EU courts. If they do not agree that, then we leave at the end of the year and trade under World Trade rules.
The free trade rules are what we trade under now with other countries such as the USA so are known to both parties, the Eu courts will have no jurisdiction so there is nothing to agree only a few minor points, manufacturing standards we already adhere to and have agreed to the same standards or better.
We also already trade with nations under WTO rules, and both parties know the end date.
Barnier is not saying tic tock tic tock now, he is saying it is a short time to get an agreement. That is because it is his arse that is in the firing line buddy.
But I assume you have seen the EU's position on why a FTA with a country that has a land border with the EU and does >£275bn of trade with the EU cannot be the same as the FTA with a country that is 3,000 miles away across an ocean and does about £30bn of trade?
You DO get that there are some pretty basic differences there, don't you?
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Billy I don't have to get anything, that is the position our government is taking, they want to be treated the same way as other countries with a free trade agreement, why should the geography make any difference, and the amount of trade we do with the EU should be encouraging an agreement not a deterrent with both sides wanting to increase it further.
All that is left is bad feeling because we have left and the feeling that we should be punished for doing so, and also it frightens them that as an independent we will flourish by trading with the rest of the world as well as themselves but with them having no control over what we decide to do.
It doesn't sit well with me that people like you and others constantly want this country to fail in their ambition to flourish even before we have left and even tried to make a go of it, and some of the rhetoric, name calling, ageism,and insults that have been thrown about at people who voted to leave are not the thoughts of an educated elite, but are more suited to people who have been dragged up from the gutter.
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Unfortunately IDM either those that voted for him and his party last time chose to ignore or forget his own an his party's failures and lies over the previous 10 years.
The last GE was all about brexit and folks not wanting Corbyn. In a few weeks, Starmer has come across far better than Corbyn ever did. You have to hope that Starmer is genuine and not putting in a good face..
Next GE brexit will be completely done and dusted and we will know more about the after effects, as well as the performance of this government after coronavirus, and any more cock ups they may have.
If Starmer plays his cards right he could have a win next GE similar to Blair’s first.
As I've already said on here IDM, Starmer is a decent guy, and could well be a good Labour leader, or even a good Prime Minister.
However, there are two factions of people who have issues with him; Corbyn supporters and fans of Momentum; and Northern Brexit voters. For him to win a majority the size of Blair's in 1997, he MUST get all of them back on board.
I honestly can't see how he'll do it.
And where exactly do Momentum have issues with him? In the pages of the right wing press?
Momentum's former National Coordinator was one of Starmer's main backers. This is what Momentum tweeted about him yesterday https://twitter.com/Keir_Starmer/status/1259888498280067072
Its the Daily Mail, Daily Express & S*n that have issues with him. I wonder why they might not want him to be successful?
I don't read newspapers Wilts, so I wouldn't know what their issues are with anybody. I personally know lots of ultra-left people, and they didn't want Starmer, they wanted Long-Bailey.
That's hardly the issue though. The issue is turning an 80 seat Tory majority into a huge Labour majority. Anyone thinking that's going to be a doddle is seriously deluded.
The reason I'm able to be so objective on all of this, is because I'm completely non-partisan, and therefore unblinkered.
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Selby.
I KNOW that's what our Govt position is. I'm saying we won't get it.
And just stop and think for a moment. Why is it that, just because I disagree with you, I want the country to fail.
Just sit down and stop for a moment and ask yourself how you came to that conclusion. And whether you really ought to re-think.
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I don't read newspapers Wilts, so I wouldn't know what their issues are with anybody. I personally know lots of ultra-left people, and they didn't want Starmer, they wanted Long-Bailey.
That's hardly the issue though. The issue is turning an 80 seat Tory majority into a huge Labour majority. Anyone thinking that's going to be a doddle is seriously deluded.
The reason I'm able to be so objective on all of this, is because I'm completely non-partisan, and therefore unblinkered.
No and that is all fair enough Steve.
I don't think anyone has ever said or thought Starmer's task would be a doodle. I am sure Starmer doesn't think it is. The think is though he has 4 years to do it.
Also you need to factor into your calculations the Lib Dem/Green voters. There were plenty of seats in the last election where the combined Labour/LD/Green vote would have defeated a Tory. Will they take more kindly to Starmer? And in Scotland?
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Billy, I hope and think that you personally don't think that way, your on a crusade and have been for four years, but I can accept and hope you do not feel so alienated.
But I agree with BB, there is a large faction of the left in this country that think themselves educationally superior and want the country under a Tory government to fail on practically every thing they do.
The education system is infiltrated with them especially higher education, and the entertainment and media industry. It was not a surprise when one slipped up wanting the PM to actually die the other day, then put on the face of someone with memory loss, she meant every word and a lot think the same sad barstewards.
In my lifetime I have lived through Labour and Tory governments fighting unions, not just Tories, Tory governments have ripped the working man off, as labour has when skimming off pensions and led the country into an illegal war, and both have shut down industry.
But the biggest resentment of people getting on and doing well for themselves has always come from the left, and still are, getting labelled portrayed baby boomers and the obvious envy of a generation that have a year out, start work three years after their grandparents, and basically think that everyone has had it easy but them.
This country has just had more thrown at it than ever before in peace time and rightly so, but is still getting stick from people who think it is clever to try and score political points.
Think yourselves lucky Corbyn didn't win the election with May at his first attempt, that money would not have been in this country to throw at it.
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People don’t want the government to fail, more that they think others may do better..
We’ll see, next election.
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Sydney, it is quite clear now, we would like a free trade deal similar to what other countries have got with the EU such as Canada, we also will not be beholden to the EU courts. If they do not agree that, then we leave at the end of the year and trade under World Trade rules.
The free trade rules are what we trade under now with other countries such as the USA so are known to both parties, the Eu courts will have no jurisdiction so there is nothing to agree only a few minor points, manufacturing standards we already adhere to and have agreed to the same standards or better.
We also already trade with nations under WTO rules, and both parties know the end date.
Barnier is not saying tic tock tic tock now, he is saying it is a short time to get an agreement. That is because it is his arse that is in the firing line buddy.
Utter rubbish. Who have NO such agreement with the US. Why are you peddling this lie?
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Sydney, it is quite clear now, we would like a free trade deal similar to what other countries have got with the EU such as Canada, we also will not be beholden to the EU courts. If they do not agree that, then we leave at the end of the year and trade under World Trade rules.
The free trade rules are what we trade under now with other countries such as the USA so are known to both parties, the Eu courts will have no jurisdiction so there is nothing to agree only a few minor points, manufacturing standards we already adhere to and have agreed to the same standards or better.
We also already trade with nations under WTO rules, and both parties know the end date.
Barnier is not saying tic tock tic tock now, he is saying it is a short time to get an agreement. That is because it is his arse that is in the firing line buddy.
I'd love to know who you think one of these nations are.
Because NO WTO member country trades on WTO terms only.
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Sydney, it is quite clear now, we would like a free trade deal similar to what other countries have got with the EU such as Canada, we also will not be beholden to the EU courts. If they do not agree that, then we leave at the end of the year and trade under World Trade rules.
The free trade rules are what we trade under now with other countries such as the USA so are known to both parties, the Eu courts will have no jurisdiction so there is nothing to agree only a few minor points, manufacturing standards we already adhere to and have agreed to the same standards or better.
We also already trade with nations under WTO rules, and both parties know the end date.
Barnier is not saying tic tock tic tock now, he is saying it is a short time to get an agreement. That is because it is his arse that is in the firing line buddy.
Utter rubbish. Who have NO such agreement with the US. Why are you peddling this lie?
He didn’t say we HAVE a trade deal with the USA.
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Sydney, it is quite clear now, we would like a free trade deal similar to what other countries have got with the EU such as Canada, we also will not be beholden to the EU courts. If they do not agree that, then we leave at the end of the year and trade under World Trade rules.
The free trade rules are what we trade under now with other countries such as the USA so are known to both parties, the Eu courts will have no jurisdiction so there is nothing to agree only a few minor points, manufacturing standards we already adhere to and have agreed to the same standards or better.
We also already trade with nations under WTO rules, and both parties know the end date.
Barnier is not saying tic tock tic tock now, he is saying it is a short time to get an agreement. That is because it is his arse that is in the firing line buddy.
Utter rubbish. Who have NO such agreement with the US. Why are you peddling this lie?
He didn’t say we HAVE a trade deal with the USA.
He is saying we have a FTA with the US. And we don't.
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IDM, that's the funny thing the elite thinking left have not rumbled, all the new house holders in the new estates in former pit villages and industrial towns don't think of themselves as labour supporters they have moved on, Labour is now the strongest in the high rise blocks in cities and in the immigrant areas.
The boundaries of constituencies because of population in those areas are going to be changed before the next election mostly to the advantage of the Tories. Labour will be hard pushed to overcome the odds.
Glyn I didn't proof read meant to be World trade, apologies
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Think yourselves lucky Corbyn didn't win the election with May at his first attempt, that money would not have been in this country to throw at it.
Fake news.
What money? It's all borrowed. The national debt has nearly doubled under the Tories. Even before this crises the money Johnson was going to use finance his spending plans from the magic money tree.
https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/334/uk-economy/uk-national-debt/
You wait and see who is going to pay it off for him. The only people with money in this country are the billionaires and pensioners. And the billionaires are not going to hang around very long if their taxes go up.
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Glyn I didn't proof read meant to be World trade, apologies
If that's in relation to you using WTO, that stands for World Trade Organisation and is the same thing.
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Sydney, it is quite clear now, we would like a free trade deal similar to what other countries have got with the EU such as Canada, we also will not be beholden to the EU courts. If they do not agree that, then we leave at the end of the year and trade under World Trade rules.
The free trade rules are what we trade under now with other countries such as the USA so are known to both parties, the Eu courts will have no jurisdiction so there is nothing to agree only a few minor points, manufacturing standards we already adhere to and have agreed to the same standards or better.
We also already trade with nations under WTO rules, and both parties know the end date.
Barnier is not saying tic tock tic tock now, he is saying it is a short time to get an agreement. That is because it is his arse that is in the firing line buddy.
Utter rubbish. Who have NO such agreement with the US. Why are you peddling this lie?
He didn’t say we HAVE a trade deal with the USA.
He is saying we have a FTA with the US. And we don't.
No he didn't, he said “with other countries SUCH AS the USA.“
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Sydney, it is quite clear now, we would like a free trade deal similar to what other countries have got with the EU such as Canada, we also will not be beholden to the EU courts. If they do not agree that, then we leave at the end of the year and trade under World Trade rules.
The free trade rules are what we trade under now with other countries such as the USA so are known to both parties, the Eu courts will have no jurisdiction so there is nothing to agree only a few minor points, manufacturing standards we already adhere to and have agreed to the same standards or better.
We also already trade with nations under WTO rules, and both parties know the end date.
Barnier is not saying tic tock tic tock now, he is saying it is a short time to get an agreement. That is because it is his arse that is in the firing line buddy.
Utter rubbish. Who have NO such agreement with the US. Why are you peddling this lie?
He didn’t say we HAVE a trade deal with the USA.
He is saying we have a FTA with the US. And we don't.
No he didn't, he said “with other countries SUCH AS the USA.“
Which means INCLUDING the US.
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What do you think “such as”’in the context of that sentence - the whole sentence as highlighted in bold?
To me it reads as “including”.
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What do you think “such as”’in the context of that sentence - the whole sentence as highlighted in bold?
To me it reads as “including”.
Exactly. Why would anyone mention a country that the description doesn't apply to instead of one that it does apply to?
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What do you think “such as”’in the context of that sentence - the whole sentence as highlighted in bold?
To me it reads as “including”.
Exactly. Why would anyone mention a country that the description doesn't apply to instead of one that it does apply to?
Well it depends on how you interpret his words.
Just because I think it is different to you doesn’t mean I am wrong.
Do you two always hunt in packs by the way.
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I only post for myself, and I can’t see how that sentence could be interpreted any differently whatsoever, sorry Hound.
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I only post for myself, and I can’t see how that sentence could be interpreted any differently whatsoever, sorry Hound.
Not unless Selby is so stupid as to use an example that doesn't apply to the description he's using? I don't think he is, but hound must do.
EDIT: I see selby is looking at this thread right now. Perhaps he can explain to us exactly what he meant.
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I only post for myself, and I can’t see how that sentence could be interpreted any differently whatsoever, sorry Hound.
No need to apologise.
I saw it differently to you, as we did with the Maradonna goal.
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I only post for myself, and I can’t see how that sentence could be interpreted any differently whatsoever, sorry Hound.
Not unless Selby is so stupid as to use an example that doesn't apply to the description he's using? I don't think he is, but hound must do.
That reply shows the difference between people.
IDM was very polite and Glyn was.........well he was Glyn Wigley.
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Aye, someone who doesn't think that "The free trade rules are what we trade under now with other countries such as the USA" actually means "The free trade rules are what we trade under now with other countries such as the USA, but not the USA itself".
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I only post for myself, and I can’t see how that sentence could be interpreted any differently whatsoever, sorry Hound.
No need to apologise.
I saw it differently to you, as we did with the Maradonna goal.
No worries Hound..
If I was to say
“I enjoy the rivalries that we have now with other clubs such as the Millers”
that implies we do have a rivalry with Rotherham, doesn’t it.?
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I only post for myself, and I can’t see how that sentence could be interpreted any differently whatsoever, sorry Hound.
No need to apologise.
I saw it differently to you, as we did with the Maradonna goal.
No worries Hound..
If I was to say
“I enjoy the rivalries that we have now with other clubs such as the Millers”
that implies we do have a rivalry with Rotherham, doesn’t it.?
Or how about "This forum is full of people who don't understand basic English such as drfchound."?
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Or how clever some are on here hey Glyn well done.
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I only post for myself, and I can’t see how that sentence could be interpreted any differently whatsoever, sorry Hound.
No need to apologise.
I saw it differently to you, as we did with the Maradonna goal.
No worries Hound..
If I was to say
“I enjoy the rivalries that we have now with other clubs such as the Millers”
that implies we do have a rivalry with Rotherham, doesn’t it.?
Or how about "This forum is full of people who don't understand basic English such as drfchound."?
You still continue with the rude responses.
Says lots about you.
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I only post for myself, and I can’t see how that sentence could be interpreted any differently whatsoever, sorry Hound.
No need to apologise.
I saw it differently to you, as we did with the Maradonna goal.
No worries Hound..
If I was to say
“I enjoy the rivalries that we have now with other clubs such as the Millers”
that implies we do have a rivalry with Rotherham, doesn’t it.?
Or how about "This forum is full of people who don't understand basic English such as drfchound."?
That’s a bit unnecessary.. I don’t think his interpretation was deliberately provocative.
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I only post for myself, and I can’t see how that sentence could be interpreted any differently whatsoever, sorry Hound.
No need to apologise.
I saw it differently to you, as we did with the Maradonna goal.
No worries Hound..
If I was to say
“I enjoy the rivalries that we have now with other clubs such as the Millers”
that implies we do have a rivalry with Rotherham, doesn’t it.?
Or how about "This forum is full of people who don't understand basic English such as drfchound."?
You still continue with the rude responses.
Says lots about you.
Why is it rude? According to your way of thinking, the description doesn't necessarily apply to the example given. Or do you now think it does?
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Or how clever some are on here hey Glyn well done.
Are you going to enlighten us as to what you actually meant so there's no need for all this?
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It doesn't matter which one you read first but the second is going to make it tough for the first one to acheive 'taking back control'
‘’British negotiator gives EU two-week deadline to drop 'ideological' stance
David Frost says there has been ‘very little progress’ in talks with Michel Barnier as clock ticks on’’
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/15/negotiators-gloomy-as-eu-uk-brexit-talks-end-in-stalemate
‘’ Brexit trade deal: Who really owns UK fishing quotas?’’
https://www.bbc.com/news/52420116?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk&link_location=live-reporting-story
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''No-deal Brexit 'would overwhelm local emergency teams'
Leaked report warns local disaster planning already exhausted by coronavirus crisis''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/21/no-deal-brexit-would-overwhelm-local-emergency-teams
Over to you brexiteers, what's the next move?
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I can Starmer becoming more and more of a Tony Blair every day
Clever man but how he’s going to stop the likes of Long Bailey sticking their nose in and upsetting people is anyone’s guess
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This country doesn't want a left-leaning government. The only chance the Labour party (or any other party) has of winning a general election is to be right-leaning enough to sway public opinion to vote for them. If they gain power by pretending to be right-leaning, with the intention of switching direction once elected, they will have deceived the country in the very same way they accuse the Tories - by lying.
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A majority of the electorate has voted for left-of-centre parties in every election since 1970, bar one, in 2015.
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Not like the tories then pretending to be a government but in fact are escapees from day care centres.
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A majority of the electorate has voted for left-of-centre parties in every election since 1970, bar one, in 2015.
So why hasn't a left-of-centre party won then?
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Do we have to go through this again just for you?
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A majority of the electorate has voted for left-of-centre parties in every election since 1970, bar one, in 2015.
So why hasn't a left-of-centre party won then?
Yawn!!!!!!
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Because we have an electoral system designed for two-party politics. The last time we had two party politics, England held the World Cup.
The left of centre vote has been split since then between.
Labour
Liberals/SDP/SDLP/LDs
Greens
Plaid Cymru
SNP
The Right of centre vote has almost always been solidly Conservative.
Our system massively rewards the side that stays as a single electoral force and massively penalises sides that split into factions.
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That ^^
The fact the Brexit Party has died off isn't good news too as it'll mean they'll swap their vote to the Tories. A coalition is probably the best hope going forward then change to a more representative voting system.
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2019
Right leaning - Brexit Party, Conservatives - 14.6m
Left leaning - Labour, Green, SNP, Lib Dems - 16m
2017
Right leaning - Conservatives, UKIP - 14.2m
Left leaning - Labour, Green, SNP, Lib Dems - 16.75m
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Du2sH3zW4AAc7Gf.jpg)
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I can save you the effort DO!
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=276577.msg958188#msg958188
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Because we have an electoral system designed for two-party politics. The last time we had two party politics, England held the World Cup.
The left of centre vote has been split since then between.
Labour
Liberals/SDP/SDLP/LDs
Greens
Plaid Cymru
SNP
The Right of centre vote has almost always been solidly Conservative.
Our system massively rewards the side that stays as a single electoral force and massively penalises sides that split into factions.
How did Blair manage to win in 1997 and his party Stay in power for 10 years?
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BB.
Because the mood of the country, the Overton Window, had moved well over to the Left. The LDs remained a left-of-centre party. And they pulled votes from previous centre-right Tories. So the overall vote share for left of centre parties was huge. The left of centre vote was still split, but the Tory vote had shrunk so much that Labour were able to win large majorities with historically very small vote shares.
In 1997, Labour won a huge majority with a lower vote share than Wilson got when he lost in 1970. In 2005 Blair won another thumping majority with a lower vote share than Callaghan had got in being hammered by Thatcher in 1979.
The Overton Window moved left all.over the world from the 1990s.
The Democrats have won the popular vote in US Presidential elections in 6/7 elections since 1992, having won it in only 1 of the previous 5.
The German Chancellor has been from the Right for 51 of the 71 years since the post-War order was established. Gerhard Schroeder was a left of centre Chancellor from 98-05.
Even Brazil elected left wing Presidents from 2000-2016.
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Ah, and here's me thinking it was the (New) Labour party going more to the right that won it for them!
Eeh, yer live and learn!
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well, as on so many things BB, you are almost certainly wrong on cause and effect.
Labour moving towards the right didn't "win it for them". It was coincidental. It is hard to imagine what Labour leader would not have won in 1997. The Tory party was washed up. Out of ideas. Tearing itself apart over Europe and Major's leadership. Having just presided over a huge recession and the humilliation of Black Wednesday.
The Right was out of ideas all round the world. The Thatcher/Reagan revolution was over and, whatever positives it may have brought, it had done huge damage to the social fabric. We were moving into a phase where some repair of that was necessary - re-investment in education, health, infrastructure, a break on the runaway imbalances of wealth and income. That change was coming and it did not require Blair to move Labour as far to the right as he did. His predecessor, John Smith, was much further to the left. In the last opinion poll before his sudden death, Smith's Labour were ahead of the Tories by 45-24.
The change was coming.
If anything, Blair moving Labour so far to the right actually increased the split on the Left. Because over the next ten years, many on the far left drifted away and didn't vote Labour (see examples on this very board) while the LDs re-positioned themselves as being economically and socially to the left of Blair, and split the left-of-centre vote (until they had to make a decision in 2010 of course - then they went all in on Tory Austerity. Bu that's the LDs for you...). That is why, by 2005 (in an election that they won handsomely), Labour's vote share was lower than the elections of 1951, 55, 59, 63, 70 and 1979, in which they lost heavily, and only a fraction above what Kinnock won in 1992, again when Labour lost.
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You'd have thought that those who drifted away from Blair's new Labour would have been closer to home to Scargill's new Socialist Labour Party.
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Ah, and here's me thinking it was the (New) Labour party going more to the right that won it for them!
Eeh, yer live and learn!
But that's the problem BB, you don't learn!
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In an Interview Kier Starmer today insisted the Brexit issue is over as he dismissed the idea of campaigning to remain in the EU.
The Labour leader said the only focus was on what sort of deal with the EU and what sort of deals with the rest of the world.
Sir Kier conceded that the party's equivocal policy on the EU which he partly oversaw as the shadow Brexit secretary had been damaging.
IT is very important for the Labour Party to be clear that whatever the position we and others may have taken in the last three and a half four years that divide between leave and remain is now over.
He also stated he wanted the Labour Party to be seen as patriotic.
So lads the fight is over, your leader thinks we are all BUDDIES now, If you feel stabbed in the back you will have to be a Green or a Liberal.
Onward brothers together is the way forward my new mates welcome aboard, like good old Kier get behind Boris.
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In an Interview Kier Starmer today insisted the Brexi issue is over as he dismissed theidea of campaigning to remain in the EU.
The Labour leader said the only focus was on what sort of deal with the EU and what sort of deals with the rest of the world.
Sir Kier conceded that the party's equivocal policy on the EU which he partly oversaw as the shadow Brexit secretary had been damaging.
IT is very important for the Labour Party to be clear that whatever the position we and others may have taken in the last three and a half four years that divide between leave and remain is now over.
He also stated he wanted the Labour Party to be seen as patriotic.
So lads the fight is over, your leader thinks we are all BUDDIES now, If you feel stabbed in the back you will have to be a Green or a Liberal.
Onward brothers together is the way forward my new mates welcome aboard, like good old Kier get behind Boris.
Don't confuse acceptance with agreement.
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Glyn, the only way you could get me to agree with you would be with thumb screws, and I don't think you could confuse me either.
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He could offer you a set of shovels and ask you to take your pick.?
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Glyn, the only way you could get me to agree with you would be with thumb screws, and I don't think you could confuse me either.
if you're going to come out with rubbish like that I'm heartily glad you're not in agreement with me.
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In an Interview Kier Starmer today insisted the Brexi issue is over as he dismissed theidea of campaigning to remain in the EU.
The Labour leader said the only focus was on what sort of deal with the EU and what sort of deals with the rest of the world.
Sir Kier conceded that the party's equivocal policy on the EU which he partly oversaw as the shadow Brexit secretary had been damaging.
IT is very important for the Labour Party to be clear that whatever the position we and others may have taken in the last three and a half four years that divide between leave and remain is now over.
He also stated he wanted the Labour Party to be seen as patriotic.
So lads the fight is over, your leader thinks we are all BUDDIES now, If you feel stabbed in the back you will have to be a Green or a Liberal.
Onward brothers together is the way forward my new mates welcome aboard, like good old Kier get behind Boris.
Selby
Part of real leadership is accepting what's possible and what is not to gain power .
He's now the leader of the Labour Party in opposition and not the shadow Brexit Secretary , we are now in the post brexit period , the argument is over and the meat on the bones politically is to have the credibility and worth of policies that bring prosperity to this country post Brexit .
There's nothing difficult about that to understand .
If you believe Johnson is a solid brexiter and actually believes in this thing then I'm afraid you are way off the mark .
Nobody but nobody writes the pro EU content he did as a journalist and actually believes in this with his heart and soul .
" if we didnt have the single market we'd have to invent it " .
He actually said that in 2003 .
Unless you have the strength of conviction and actually really believe what you are doing is the right thing then I'm afraid Johnson falls way short of the mark .
You might want to prepare yourself for a plastic brexit because this PM will capitulate , trust me he will .
This thing really does come down to courage and belief in what you are doing is the right path .
He's too weak to accept the pain , PM's like Thatcher were not and had the courage and belief even when we had 5m on the dole and she was about as popular as VD .
When you insinuate a weak man , your looking in the wrong direction .
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In an Interview Kier Starmer today insisted the Brexit issue is over as he dismissed the idea of campaigning to remain in the EU.
The Labour leader said the only focus was on what sort of deal with the EU and what sort of deals with the rest of the world.
Sir Kier conceded that the party's equivocal policy on the EU which he partly oversaw as the shadow Brexit secretary had been damaging.
IT is very important for the Labour Party to be clear that whatever the position we and others may have taken in the last three and a half four years that divide between leave and remain is now over.
He also stated he wanted the Labour Party to be seen as patriotic.
So lads the fight is over, your leader thinks we are all BUDDIES now, If you feel stabbed in the back you will have to be a Green or a Liberal.
Onward brothers together is the way forward my new mates welcome aboard, like good old Kier get behind Boris.
For a grown man you don’t half come out with some childish shit
-
In an Interview Kier Starmer today insisted the Brexit issue is over as he dismissed the idea of campaigning to remain in the EU.
The Labour leader said the only focus was on what sort of deal with the EU and what sort of deals with the rest of the world.
Sir Kier conceded that the party's equivocal policy on the EU which he partly oversaw as the shadow Brexit secretary had been damaging.
IT is very important for the Labour Party to be clear that whatever the position we and others may have taken in the last three and a half four years that divide between leave and remain is now over.
He also stated he wanted the Labour Party to be seen as patriotic.
So lads the fight is over, your leader thinks we are all BUDDIES now, If you feel stabbed in the back you will have to be a Green or a Liberal.
Onward brothers together is the way forward my new mates welcome aboard, like good old Kier get behind Boris.
Come on selby catch up. He said something similar on the radio two weeks ago. That was my opening post on this thread.
As far as SKS & the Labour Party are concerned Brexit is done and finished. You won.
It is now up to Johnson to deliver it as promised by 31st December. Let us know how he gets on....
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Filo, I have been called some things in the past but can't remember "a grown man" thanks.
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Same as last time. Starmer putting all the pressure on the Tories. They've got to get this right or it'll fall nicely into Starmers hands.
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Starmer is playing this brilliantly.
Nothing OTT. Just ask probing questions and let the pressure build on Johnson.
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His problem is Billy will come from his own party and the liberals and greens will gain their votes.
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You don’t think Starmer will see a more united Labour Party.?
You don’t think that supporters of lesser parties will turn to Starmer next election as the realistic alternative to the current shambles.? Not to mention those Tory supporters who will eventually get fed up.?
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His problem is Billy will come from his own party and the liberals and greens will gain their votes.
You reckon?
It's not happening at the moment.
Since he became leader, the Tory lead in the weekly Opinium/Observer polls has gone
26%
19%
17%
18%
16%
15%
12%
That is a remarkable turnround by any standards.
And the combined LD+Green support has stayed rock solid at 8-9% through that period. What Starmer is currently doing is taking support rapidly directly from the Tories, and losing none to the LDs and Greens.
I keep saying to you. Brexit is old news. It has happened. We are in a different world now. One where most people (not you, obviously) don't see the world just through a Brexit lens.
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Yep, Brexit is indeed history. We left the EU on 31st January.
Yet there are those who think that it's still carrying on because we are in a trade negotiation with the EU.
That (negotiation) is an entirely separate matter. It's a predominantly commercial - not political - negotiation and is about getting the best possible deal with our closest trading partner. A deal that helps preserve the economy of this country and ensures prosperity for the UK going forward. That's a patriotic duty.
All Starmer has done is point out that the government has committed to getting a deal agreed by the end of this year. He'll hold them to that date. And he'll hold them to the quality of the deal that they negotiate.
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They are of course only negotiating for second or third prize BH as having the same VIP card as a member is non negotiable and this has been known from the get go.
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This is going to upset Selby.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52819126
The EU has got its shit together and has produced a massive rescue package to support Italy and Spain.
Very, very good news.
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This is going to upset Selby.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-52819126
The EU has got its shit together and has produced a massive rescue package to support Italy and Spain.
Very, very good news.
Nah, selby will paint that as Germany running other country's economies. :silly:
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What do I say Glyn, not long before the shorting of the Euro starts then. Bide your time watch the markets and you can make a bob or two, it won't be long to wait.
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What do I say Glyn, not long before the shorting of the Euro starts then.
Can someone pin this message? So we can come back and check.
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What do I say Glyn, not long before the shorting of the Euro starts then. Bide your time watch the markets and you can make a bob or two, it won't be long to wait.
My money's on the pound being shorted way before the Euro!
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What do I say Glyn, not long before the shorting of the Euro starts then. Bide your time watch the markets and you can make a bob or two, it won't be long to wait.
When can we expect this to happen, oh wise one?
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I can't understand this board, we have experts on Brexit, covid 19, the law and now money, and spend all your time on here telling everyone.
Made a nice little earner on Barclays bought early April at 89p sold this morning a couple of tranches 119p I suppose the tax will go in the pot for you lot with nothing to do.
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I can't understand this board, we have experts on Brexit, covid 19, the law and now money, and spend all your time on here telling everyone.
Made a nice little earner on Barclays bought early April at 89p sold this morning a couple of tranches 119p I suppose the tax will go in the pot for you lot with nothing to do.
You mean like folks like me on furlough.? Folks like me who don’t yet know if we actually have a job in a few weeks time, with mortgages and families to support.?
Folks like me who have paid tax continuously since September 1987.?
f**k you Selby.!
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I see Holland are loving this idea.
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Selby if you apologise and retract your jibe I will amend my post above.
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IDM, no need to amend anything I am not in the least offended and you can add it to the sizeable chunk of dividends I chucked in at the beginning of April that were chucked into fight Covid 19.
I am sorry to hear of your personal circumstances and anybody else caught up in it through no fault of their own, but if people want a pop expect one back.
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I can't understand this board, we have experts on Brexit, covid 19, the law and now money, and spend all your time on here telling everyone.
Made a nice little earner on Barclays bought early April at 89p sold this morning a couple of tranches 119p I suppose the tax will go in the pot for you lot with nothing to do.
#
You're the one telling us you're the expert on the demise of the EU and the Euro, nobody else. Are you going to enlighten us about the timing of your prediction about the Euro anytime soon or are you just going to waffle and deflect again?
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IDM, no need to amend anything I am not in the least offended and you can add it to the sizeable chunk of dividends I chucked in at the beginning of April that were chucked into fight Covid 19.
I am sorry to hear of your personal circumstances and anybody else caught up in it through no fault of their own, but if people want a pop expect one back.
Disagreeing is one thing - you made it personal. Yes you may not have known about my circumstances and I actually feel that I am very lucky to be able to benefit from furlough notwithstanding my worries about my job. So the jibe about your few p of extra tax is something I find offensive.
For what it is worth I would not argue against a small increase in the income tax rate for a couple of years to help pay for this. It could actually be a coup for the Tories - raise taxes for 2-3’years then cut them again in the run up to the next GE.
Mind you, the way they are going, that will come sooner than they want.!
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IDM.
There absolutely shouldn't be ANY tax rises for a long while until we get a proper recovery going. (Except perhaps on the top rate of tax.) What Govt needs to do for the next 3 years is pour money into people's pockets, not take it out.
The political problem they have cuts both ways.
If they DON'T get the economy restarted, they are toast.
If they DO get the economy re-started, THEN it will be time for reduced spending and increased taxes. Just when an election is on the horizon.
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I meant the principle of giving something back following my furlough, rather than a macro economic measure.
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No I get that IDM. I'm just saying it's going to be a way off down the line.
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IDM.
There absolutely shouldn't be ANY tax rises for a long while until we get a proper recovery going. (Except perhaps on the top rate of tax.) What Govt needs to do for the next 3 years is pour money into people's pockets, not take it out.
The political problem they have cuts both ways.
If they DON'T get the economy restarted, they are toast.
If they DO get the economy re-started, THEN it will be time for reduced spending and increased taxes. Just when an election is on the horizon.
Errr - look at the title of this thread. Would you care to revise your post on account of a further political 'difficulty' that may be awaiting down the line. 31st December 2020 to be exact.
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You know what Wilts, I'd actually forgotten about that.
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No probs Billy. Tell you what, do a quick Cummings and edit the post. No-one will know and I wont tell.
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I saw a line on the bottom of the tv screen during the bbc coverage of the committee questioning Johnson today, where the EU would be happy to extend the brexit arrangements by two years.
I really cannot see why the government are hell bent on completing by the end of this year at a risk of a really bad deal, for want of an arbitrary date target. Well I suspect they want a no deal after all.
And my view isn’t about opposition to brexit - we left in January so this is now about dotting Is and crossing Ts..
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Two years eh, quite a change from tic toc tic toc that was their mantra don't you think.
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The eu was always open to the date changing - it is the uk government which set that arbitrary date.
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Two years would be smart and in everyone's best interests. It'll allow for the financial affects of coronavirus to die down.
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:that:
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Two years would certainly give us time to try to assemble a group of negotiators fit for purpose. something that's been beyond us so far.
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I can't understand this board, we have experts on Brexit, covid 19, the law and now money, and spend all your time on here telling everyone.
Made a nice little earner on Barclays bought early April at 89p sold this morning a couple of tranches 119p I suppose the tax will go in the pot for you lot with nothing to do.
Gamblers only tell you when they win :)
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Sydney, I am not a gambler.
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You shouldn't feel you have to big yourself up selby we're all the same on here
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Sydney, is the reason you are coming back here your neighbours? what's your nick name down there Johnny no mates the Brit? god help Sprotborough.
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Got it one selby :)
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It looks like Nissan are keeping the Suderland factory open and shutting the one in Barcelona and are considering moving some Renault models there under their joint agreement and restructuring. I wonder why?
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It looks like Nissan are keeping the Suderland factory open and shutting the one in Barcelona and are considering moving some Renault models there under their joint agreement and restructuring. I wonder why?
Surprised Foxbat hasnt mentioned it....
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I'm sure Foxbat will be as pleased as everyone is, you'd have to be a bit of a sad f**k not to be.
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It looks like Nissan are keeping the Suderland factory open and shutting the one in Barcelona and are considering moving some Renault models there under their joint agreement and restructuring. I wonder why?
I thought Brexit was supposed to be the end of all foreign companies investing in the UK?
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Nissan backs UK plant as it unveils survival plan
''Nissan's UK factory in Sunderland will stay open as the Japanese carmaker carries out a global restructuring amid the coronavirus pandemic.
It will close its factory in Barcelona with the loss of about 2,800 jobs after the firm plunged to a $6.2bn (£5bn) net loss in the last financial year.
Nissan is cutting production and car models after sales fell before and during the Covid-19 outbreak.''
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52829348
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2,800 jobs lost because of Brexit. Yay.
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Donny, it has nothing to do with Brexit, the Sunderland plant is one of the most productive in the Nissan company, I feel just as bad for the people in Barcelona that will lose their jobs.
It is not a nice world at the moment whichever country you live in.
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IDM, the government are hell bent on getting out to finally stop the fraud that has been the remain campaign. A campaign that had the government the treasury and their lie project fear propaganda machine, most of the media and most of parliament on their side.
They had American Presidents, former prime ministers, The IMF, The OECD, and they spent significantly more money than the leave campaign including a circular to every house in the UK, and the senior representatives of the EU at every opportunity referring to the matter when they should not have made comments on our vote.
If the referendum was a fraud it was because it was never conducted on a level playing field, if it had been leave would have won by a minimum of 10%.
Since then we have had votes in parliament to ratify the decision backed by the majority of MP's, and Two elections with Brexit the main subject.
Luminaries you say you trust like Starmer have set up meetings with leaders of the EU, and quite openly have tried at every opportunity to overturn all those legal votes by the electorate and parliament.
Those are some of the reasons they want to get it done, another is not to fall into the trap of having to chip in to save the southern states although their bond idea is meeting stiffer opposition than France Spain and Italy thought it would.
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But no doubt you'd have let Leave keep spraying their lies everywhere to 'level the playing field', no?
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Glyn, you just keep calling the pot a kettle if that is the only thing you can think of to overcome a democratic vote.
If you can't accept that that lot told just as many untruths as the leave campaign you deserve to keep being on the losing side time after time.
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It looks like Nissan are keeping the Suderland factory open and shutting the one in Barcelona and are considering moving some Renault models there under their joint agreement and restructuring. I wonder why?
I thought Brexit was supposed to be the end of all foreign companies investing in the UK?
And I thought German car companies would come riding to our rescue?
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IDM, the government are hell bent on getting out to finally stop the fraud that has been the remain campaign. A campaign that had the government the treasury and their lie project fear propaganda machine, most of the media and most of parliament on their side.
They had American Presidents, former prime ministers, The IMF, The OECD, and they spent significantly more money than the leave campaign including a circular to every house in the UK, and the senior representatives of the EU at every opportunity referring to the matter when they should not have made comments on our vote.
If the referendum was a fraud it was because it was never conducted on a level playing field, if it had been leave would have won by a minimum of 10%.
Since then we have had votes in parliament to ratify the decision backed by the majority of MP's, and Two elections with Brexit the main subject.
Luminaries you say you trust like Starmer have set up meetings with leaders of the EU, and quite openly have tried at every opportunity to overturn all those legal votes by the electorate and parliament.
Those are some of the reasons they want to get it done, another is not to fall into the trap of having to chip in to save the southern states although their bond idea is meeting stiffer opposition than France Spain and Italy thought it would.
Eh.?
Why are you addressing this to me.?
Not really sure what you are trying to say in that post, but in case you missed it, brexit happened on 31 Jan this year.
The rest is just negotiating the trade deals. The point at hand is that the timescale to do this could be sensibly extended.
What goes into those deals would be a different debate, as are the who said what on both sides leading up the the referendum.
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Glyn, you and a lot of remainers have always put up the theory that the leave campaign only won the argument because of lies told, while I maintain the the remain campaign was just as culpable.
Question, would you have accepted the remain campaign being more divisive and dirty if it had returned the result you desired?
It would have been hard pushed to be so by the way despite popular opinion.
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This is going to go down well amongst SOME new Tory voters ............ :aok:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/29/three-million-hong-kong-residents-eligible-for-uk-citizenship
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Do you remember the British Nationality Act in 1981, passed under Thatcher?
It was passed to re-define the status of citizens of Crown Colonies and Dependencies. It's primary effect was to deny British Citizenship to 3 million Hong Kong citizens, because the UK Govt had just started negotiations with China about handing HK back and there was a fear that they'd come over 'ere...
A little noticed secondary effect at the time was to deny UK citizenship to the inhabitants of the Falkland Islanders...
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Things not looking too good over in the EU as far as unity is concerned
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Selby.
Why do you want the EU to fail? Why do you take pleasure in the other side losing?
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Things not looking too good over in the EU as far as unity is concerned
Whereas here in Britain it's a shining beacon of unity!
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Selby.
Why do you want the EU to fail? Why do you take pleasure in the other side losing?
i hope that is said in jest lol, how many on here want the tories to fail so labour can get in power?
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Selby.
Why do you want the EU to fail? Why do you take pleasure in the other side losing?
i hope that is said in jest lol, how many on here want the tories to fail so labour can get in power?
But most I think wouldn't just want to swap a totally dishonest criminal bunch of thugs for another party just the same and the electorate has shown that they don't but what has been shown is that there is a solid core of conservative voters that will accept any amount of lies and dishonesty and use their influence, power and money to denigrate and lie about what others do to claim enough votes to get in.
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Selby.
Why do you want the EU to fail? Why do you take pleasure in the other side losing?
i hope that is said in jest lol, how many on here want the tories to fail so labour can get in power?
I want the Government to finally get right their response to thiis virus and govern and I have said (check my posts) that "it" would have been ridiculously difficult even if we had had a Govt of National Unity
After that I want them to fail spectacularly NOT just so Labour get in power but so the Tories (current crop of them) are exposed as the least competent set of Politicians I have lived with since (as I have said previously) I started voting in 1970 ish
They are morally corrupt they lie constantly and most annoying are quite the worst individuals when it comes to competance at what they are supposed to be doing
Personally as again I have said many times I dont care if Labour are in power or (some better) Tories but I would prefer a PR Elected Government to cut down the extremism either way.
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Selby.
Why do you want the EU to fail? Why do you take pleasure in the other side losing?
i hope that is said in jest lol, how many on here want the tories to fail so labour can get in power?
Probably about as many that revelled in labour losing the last election.
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Selby.
Why do you want the EU to fail? Why do you take pleasure in the other side losing?
i hope that is said in jest lol, how many on here want the tories to fail so labour can get in power?
I want the Government to finally get right their response to thiis virus and govern and I have said (check my posts) that "it" would have been ridiculously difficult even if we had had a Govt of National Unity
After that I want them to fail spectacularly NOT just so Labour get in power but so the Tories (current crop of them) are exposed as the least competent set of Politicians I have lived with since (as I have said previously) I started voting in 1970 ish
They are morally corrupt they lie constantly and most annoying are quite the worst individuals when it comes to competance at what they are supposed to be doing
Personally as again I have said many times I dont care if Labour are in power or (some better) Tories but I would prefer a PR Elected Government to cut down the extremism either way.
Spot on.. disliking one lot doesn’t mean you automatically favour the others..
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I don't really personally want the EU to fail, but do think that eventually it will do and future History will prove us right to get out when we did and benefit from doing so. Does that satisfy you Billy?
I notice that Glynn nor anyone else who have banged the drum on the leavers campaign being fronted with divisive lies have failed to give an opinion on whether they would have accepted the remain campaign being what they thought was comparable if it had resulted in them winning in 2016.
As I said it would have been hard for them to do so, they were just as bad in their campaign , but somehow gained the moral high ground, when they peddled a load of B******S by luminaries with projections of instant failure that proved false within days.
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We're having part of your post examined and interpreted (translated of course) into english selby
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I will simplify it for you then SYD, if the remain leaders had used a comparable publicity stunt like the Farage poster, and the other dirty tricks or a comparable pointer like the Bus statement, would you have been happy for them to do so to win the referendum and do what you have to do to win by any means.
I personally with campaign fear and a load of total lies think they did so, a different way but as bad and a losers way.
What do you think?
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No
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I will simplify it for you then SYD, if the remain leaders had used a comparable publicity stunt like the Farage poster, and the other dirty tricks or a comparable pointer like the Bus statement, would you have been happy for them to do so to win the referendum and do what you have to do to win by any means.
I personally with campaign fear and a load of total lies think they did so, a different way but as bad and a losers way.
What do you think?
No, but then Remainers didn't use despicable posters like Farage's or a bus plastered with lies, did they?
PS Of course the EU will eventually fall and be replaced with something else. It happened to the Roman Empire, the Mongol Empire, the British Empire and the Soviet Union. What's your prediction for how long it will take for it to happen to the EU?
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Interesting that Glynn, you are saying that a few words on a bus and a poster has more sway than the PM, The chancellor of the exchequer, the US President, The media and the combined leadership of the EU all pedalling lies and threats.
Some money and hot air was wasted there then.
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Interesting that Glynn, you are saying that a few words on a bus and a poster has more sway than the PM, The chancellor of the exchequer, the US President, The media and the combined leadership of the EU all pedalling lies and threats.
Some money and hot air was wasted there then.
To be fair, the PM, the President and the media have all proven to be liars at fairly regular intervals.
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Interesting that Glynn, you are saying that a few words on a bus and a poster has more sway than the PM, The chancellor of the exchequer, the US President, The media and the combined leadership of the EU all pedalling lies and threats.
Some money and hot air was wasted there then.
If the bus and posters had no sway, why bother doing it.?
I’ve said before, there are hundreds of thousands of people, possibly millions, who don’t follow politics at all and will make a decision based on headlines - they are the ones susceptible to such lies.
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IDM, I think part of your problem and the leave sympathisers is that you underestimate the electorate big time.
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I don’t underestimate the electorate at all..
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Selby
What lies were peddled by the Remain campaign?
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Selby
What lies were peddled by the Remain campaign?
And what of the Leave campaign has been true?
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I will simplify it for you then SYD, if the remain leaders had used a comparable publicity stunt like the Farage poster, and the other dirty tricks or a comparable pointer like the Bus statement, would you have been happy for them to do so to win the referendum and do what you have to do to win by any means.
I personally with campaign fear and a load of total lies think they did so, a different way but as bad and a losers way.
What do you think?
No, but then Remainers didn't use despicable posters like Farage's or a bus plastered with lies, did they?
PS Of course the EU will eventually fall and be replaced with something else. It happened to the Roman Empire, the Mongol Empire, the British Empire and the Soviet Union. What's your prediction for how long it will take for it to happen to the EU?
Is this from Catch-22?
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Selby.
If I understand your question, I think you're asking: Would you have unreservedly criticised your side if they had published Nazi-style posters and pushed lies that they were told to stop by the ONS, like my side did (and I never criticised)?
If that's your question then my answer is "yes, unequivocally." I'm surprised you need to ask.
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Additionally, I would have unequivocally condemned my side if they had continued campaigning during a voluntary campaigning moratorium following the assassination of an MP by a man shouting slogans associated with my side.
I don't recall you criticising your side for doing precisely that.
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Well the answers were as expected but doesn't answer the question really, are you just too nice and fools when it comes to winning at politics, or just telling fibs?
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Selby.
Why do you want the EU to fail? Why do you take pleasure in the other side losing?
i hope that is said in jest lol, how many on here want the tories to fail so labour can get in power?
There are many more posters on here who favour the Labour Party than those who don’t so I would imagine that the number would be quite high.
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A party should I am election on its own strengths rather than the weaknesses of its opponents. I’m convinced we had the latter in December - the Tories won because Labour and Corbyn were at a low.
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I would say that Barnier and Macron and other EU leaders have taken the lead when talking publicly about how Britain would be hurt by leaving in the past.
Funny how the same people are wanting us to stay for a couple more years now they want a money hole filling.
IDM of course they were that is why Bojo pushed your lot into an election, and Labour were stupid enough to fall for it with the Liberals talking that much s**t led by a donkey there was only ever going to be one winner.
You might remember the Liberals they thought they were ready to rule.
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And who do you presume to think “my lot” actually are.?
Who I voted for is my business, but I can tell you it wasn’t Corbyn’s Labour Party.!
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I would say that Barnier and Macron and other EU leaders have taken the lead when talking publicly about how Britain would be hurt by leaving in the past.
Funny how the same people are wanting us to stay for a couple more years now they want a money hole filling.
IDM of course they were that is why Bojo pushed your lot into an election, and Labour were stupid enough to fall for it with the Liberals talking that much s**t led by a donkey there was only ever going to be one winner.
You might remember the Liberals they thought they were ready to rule.
You seem to have a habit of saying things without any supporting evidence selby. Two things there that you have to prove to be taken seriously - otherwise you look just like any other internet Troll. Proof of both please.
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I would say that Barnier and Macron and other EU leaders have taken the lead when talking publicly about how Britain would be hurt by leaving in the past.
Funny how the same people are wanting us to stay for a couple more years now they want a money hole filling.
IDM of course they were that is why Bojo pushed your lot into an election, and Labour were stupid enough to fall for it with the Liberals talking that much s**t led by a donkey there was only ever going to be one winner.
You might remember the Liberals they thought they were ready to rule.
You seem to have a habit of saying things without any supporting evidence selby. Two things there that you have to prove to be taken seriously - otherwise you look just like any other internet Troll. Proof of both please.
Does this help? Today's Sunday Times
Keep promises of face No Deal says Barnier?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/keep-promises-or-face-no-deal-brexit-michel-barnier-tells-boris-johnson-c2rcdjsns
Seems a funny way to saying he wants us to stay but there you go.
I'm with SKS by the way. Johnson has said he will get us a deal by 31st December - why wouldn't anyone believe him?
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I would say that Barnier and Macron and other EU leaders have taken the lead when talking publicly about how Britain would be hurt by leaving in the past.
Funny how the same people are wanting us to stay for a couple more years now they want a money hole filling.
IDM of course they were that is why Bojo pushed your lot into an election, and Labour were stupid enough to fall for it with the Liberals talking that much s**t led by a donkey there was only ever going to be one winner.
You might remember the Liberals they thought they were ready to rule.
You seem to have a habit of saying things without any supporting evidence selby. Two things there that you have to prove to be taken seriously - otherwise you look just like any other internet Troll. Proof of both please.
He can't, because we are are OUT. We cannot stay. For some reason selby seems to think we are still in the EU though. It's almost as though he doesn't know what he's talking about.
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I would say that Barnier and Macron and other EU leaders have taken the lead when talking publicly about how Britain would be hurt by leaving in the past.
Funny how the same people are wanting us to stay for a couple more years now they want a money hole filling.
IDM of course they were that is why Bojo pushed your lot into an election, and Labour were stupid enough to fall for it with the Liberals talking that much s**t led by a donkey there was only ever going to be one winner.
You might remember the Liberals they thought they were ready to rule.
Selby
It didn't matter if Johnson pushed Labour in to an election or not .
The country was falling apart with Parliament gridlocked , something had to give , everyone recognised that .
Somebody needed to lead the country with a majority one way or the other .
We all knew what was coming Selby and that Labour would be defeated badly .
Personally it was a case of getting the bugger over and done with and Corbyn and his tribe back to the backbenchers where they belonged .
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Tyke many on this forum right up until the last minute thought labour had reduced the gap significantly
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Tyke many on this forum right up until the last minute thought labour had reduced the gap significantly
You won. Get over it. Why not tell us some of the details you would like to see in Johnson's great new deal with the EU.
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I didn’t mean it in a bad way lol, it was to his everyone new it would happen and they would lose badly
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My brain hurts.
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Tyke many on this forum right up until the last minute thought labour had reduced the gap significantly
Well I can't speak for others bpool but for me personally it was like a boil getting lanced .
Yeh it's a bit ugly and uncomfortable but its over with now .
Things to take from the election for me were the end of Corbyn and the fact I was confident Johnson would be a complete disaster .
The way Johnson is performing he's the capability of taking the Tories right back to where they were in 97 .
To get back on topic I'm totally convinced Johnson will capitulate on the trade deal with the EU and have us tied in .
He's going to face a massive backlash within his own party when he does .
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When we rejoin the EU , I think we should adopt the Euro at the same time . Anyone else ?
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My brain hurts.
Your a happy soul
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When we rejoin the EU , I think we should adopt the Euro at the same time . Anyone else ?
I'd add make Brussels our new capital city and have Verhofstadt as PM .
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Tyke many on this forum right up until the last minute thought labour had reduced the gap significantly
The way Johnson is performing he's the capability of taking the Tories right back to where they were in 97 .
The way Johnson is performing he will take the Tories back to 1897 and the country to 1697!
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When we rejoin the EU , I think we should adopt the Euro at the same time . Anyone else ?
I'd add make Brussels our new capital city and have Verhofstadt as PM .
They can't be worse than what we've inflicted upon ourselves.
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When we rejoin the EU , I think we should adopt the Euro at the same time . Anyone else ?
F*cking delusional.
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When we rejoin the EU , I think we should adopt the Euro at the same time . Anyone else ?
F*cking delusional.
Not really Steve. It's a racing certainty that if we do apply to rejoin we won't get the concessions we enjoyed as members. So if we do rejoin at a later date we will most likely have to adopt the Euro.
The delusion was voting leave in the blind hope that we'd become better off without any form of proof to back that blind hope up. If that blind hope proves to be correct then great, we won't need to apply to rejoin. But if it proves false then membership on worse terms looks very likely indeed.
Let's start out by seeing what sort of trade deal we get first, if any, shall we?
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If politicians like Liz Truss are involved I can't see us negotiating anything worthwhile.
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There's very little doubt in my mind that the EU will have no hesitation in throwing the UK under the bus , Barnier ain't bluffing that much we do know during this process of 4 years and counting .
The question is how long Johnson will refrain from blinking .
He hasn't the balls for this game of Mexican Stand Off with the economic effects of the pandemic set to hit .
Expect a Chamberlain moment as he waves a piece of white paper proclaiming " deal in our time " as he steps on to the political Green Mile .
Be strong Boris , it's a big fall coming from the top job lad .
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The EU won't cut off it's nose .......... but I don't see how It can give advantage to the UK without other EU members being at a disadvantage and that is certainly not going to happen.
Chlorine chicken anyone? :)
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There's very little doubt in my mind that the EU will have no hesitation in throwing the UK under the bus , Barnier ain't bluffing that much we do know during this process of 4 years and counting .
The question is how long Johnson will refrain from blinking .
He hasn't the balls for this game of Mexican Stand Off with the economic effects of the pandemic set to hit .
Expect a Chamberlain moment as he waves a piece of white paper proclaiming " deal in our time " as he steps on to the political Green Mile .
Be strong Boris , it's a big fall coming from the top job lad .
It's not a question of them "throwing us under the bus" Tyke. That's daft talk.
If you go into negotiations, you need to know what the other side's red line is.
The EU's red line is the Single Market.
They will not give us a deal which makes it look to other countries as though you can get a better economic position outside the SM, with the freedom to do what the f**k you want, than INSIDE the SM, where you have to abide by the rules that require you not to play Beggar Thy Neighbour.
If they allow us a deal like that, it destroys the SM, because then EVERYONE will want to break the rules.
And is everyone breaks the rules, everyone becomes poorer, because the SM is destroyed.
So it will not happen. Full stop.
That is a perfectly sound and reasonable position. Why should WE get any of the benefits without the costs?
Understand that and the EU position is perfectly logical. We will NOT get they deal that the Tory Govt say we want, because everyone knows it breaches that red line.
It needs us to be grown up about the negotiations. We KNEW this 4 years ago. Nothing has changed. We either get real about what sort of deal is available, or we leave with no deal.
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The basic problem, all the way through the Brexit process has been the belief in British Exceptionalism.
We MUST get a good deal because we are BRITISH! And therefore we deserve it. You European types need us more than we need you and you will fold.
It's b*llocks. Childish b*llocks. It's the result of the national myth we have spun for three generations as the Empire collapsed and we couldn't come to terms with being one of a set of equals.
We are at the endgame now. We either grow up f**king smartish, or we add the effect of cutting ourselves off from one of the greatest economic powerhouses in history to the list of problems we will have to sort out post-CoVid.
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If we as a nation don't get over this we are better and we are different from them, future generations will find themselves in the poorhouse and in a pariah state. We don't have an empire and we don't rule the waves we are liitle Britain with a commercial hub, we can't even feed everyone.
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There's very little doubt in my mind that the EU will have no hesitation in throwing the UK under the bus , Barnier ain't bluffing that much we do know during this process of 4 years and counting .
The question is how long Johnson will refrain from blinking .
He hasn't the balls for this game of Mexican Stand Off with the economic effects of the pandemic set to hit .
Expect a Chamberlain moment as he waves a piece of white paper proclaiming " deal in our time " as he steps on to the political Green Mile .
Be strong Boris , it's a big fall coming from the top job lad .
Throw the UK under the bus how? - by treating us the same as any other non-member state, or do you think they've something special lined up just for us?
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There's very little doubt in my mind that the EU will have no hesitation in throwing the UK under the bus , Barnier ain't bluffing that much we do know during this process of 4 years and counting .
The question is how long Johnson will refrain from blinking .
He hasn't the balls for this game of Mexican Stand Off with the economic effects of the pandemic set to hit .
Expect a Chamberlain moment as he waves a piece of white paper proclaiming " deal in our time " as he steps on to the political Green Mile .
Be strong Boris , it's a big fall coming from the top job lad .
Throw the UK under the bus how? - by treating us the same as any other non-member state, or do you think they've something special lined up just for us?
Not how I intended it to be interpreted , Barnier has a job to do protecting the EU and I understand that .
What I meant was he wouldn't think twice about walking away from the negotiations if the UK are unrealistic in what are wanting .
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If we as a nation don't get over this we are better and we are different from them, future generations will find themselves in the poorhouse and in a pariah state. We don't have an empire and we don't rule the waves we are liitle Britain with a commercial hub, we can't even feed everyone.
“We”?
Are you back in Blighty then.
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If you think things are as one sided as you think in the EU's favour You may be in for a surprise. Or is it just the way you would like it to be.
If in the future (which I very much doubt) we do try to get back in, the Euro might not be around to have to deal with as we now know it, there might even be two versions for the northern and southern states.
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Selby.
Read what I wrote.
It is very simple.
The EU wants the SM more than it wants a deal with us.
If you do not understand that, you will not understand what is going to pan out in the next few months.
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If you think things are as one sided as you think in the EU's favour You may be in for a surprise. Or is it just the way you would like it to be.
If in the future (which I very much doubt) we do try to get back in, the Euro might not be around to have to deal with as we now know it, there might even be two versions for the northern and southern states.
No it isn't one sided Selby , WTO may well have been an option pre pandemic and we go from there but this thing is a real game changer now .
The smart thing to do would be to extend this for at least 18 months and address the economic health before restarting the negotiations .
The smart thing to do v your own ego and timeline you've set for yourself .
Better ask Dom .
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If you think things are as one sided as you think in the EU's favour You may be in for a surprise. Or is it just the way you would like it to be.
If in the future (which I very much doubt) we do try to get back in, the Euro might not be around to have to deal with as we now know it, there might even be two versions for the northern and southern states.
Actually selby, a lot of people in this country will be in for a surprise. Remember the promise that food standards would be maintained....
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/full-list-of-mps-who-voted-to-lower-our-food-standards-during-the-covid-pandemic/26/05/?fbclid=IwAR2OYFU1QIgXYdJsFeSpHbpCrLPO9G8cWwtOzLrOL1XjOREQSYuuCBC390U#.XsyuT_O4_qs.facebook
How many more lies and false promises need to be exposed before you levers realise that you've been well and truly had?
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The basic problem, all the way through the Brexit process has been the belief in British Exceptionalism.
We MUST get a good deal because we are BRITISH! And therefore we deserve it. You European types need us more than we need you and you will fold.
It's b*llocks. Childish b*llocks. It's the result of the national myth we have spun for three generations as the Empire collapsed and we couldn't come to terms with being one of a set of equals.
We are at the endgame now. We either grow up f**king smartish, or we add the effect of cutting ourselves off from one of the greatest economic powerhouses in history to the list of problems we will have to sort out post-CoVid.
There is the obsession about fishing too. Something worth so little in comparison to other sectors which seem to be forgotten about.
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Billy you can throw theories about all you want, The leaders of the EU are hell bent on punishing the UK not primarily to hurt the UK but to keep the status Quo in their little kingdom fearing more countries leaving with the polls in italy especially looking to move in that direction.
The Industrialists however are not in anyway as keen on that idea at all. The Germans are beginning to realise along with other northern states that the dept and payments towards the southern states plus their printing of fictitious money is now looking to be permanent, and realise that the money 90 billion euros here another 80 billion euros there will never be repaid, it is not possible when the countries benefiting started the covid crisis in negative territory to start with and problems with trading with us will be a big hit at a bad time.
We are not in the best of health, but want to stay well clear of getting mixed up in any of that s**t, and if there is no agreement at the end of this month we will start the pull away.
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you wouldn't have anything to support your latest string theory selby?
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Billy you can throw theories about all you want, The leaders of the EU are hell bent on punishing the UK not primarily to hurt the UK but to keep the status Quo in their little kingdom fearing more countries leaving with the polls in italy especially looking to move in that direction.
The Industrialists however are not in anyway as keen on that idea at all. The Germans are beginning to realise along with other northern states that the dept and payments towards the southern states plus their printing of fictitious money is now looking to be permanent, and realise that the money 90 billion euros here another 80 billion euros there will never be repaid, it is not possible when the countries benefiting started the covid crisis in negative territory to start with and problems with trading with us will be a big hit at a bad time.
We are not in the best of health, but want to stay well clear of getting mixed up in any of that s**t, and if there is no agreement at the end of this month we will start the pull away.
So now I'll ask you the exact same question as I asked Tyke. And at least he was able to answer it, are you?
Will they be punishing us by treating us exactly the same as any other non-member state, or do you think they've something special lined up just for us? And if you do believe that, what is it?
PS You accuse others of coming up with theories and then you post that? Nice one.
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Selby.
It's not a theory. It's been a consistent line from the EU all the way through from early 2016 for those who are prepared to take their fingers out of their ears and listen.
I'll repeat it, because it doesn't seem to be sinking into your head.
The EU value the coherence of the Single Market way above anything they will get from a deal with us. Therefore they will not offer us a deal that in any way endangers the SM.
That's simply how it is. There's no moral judgement in saying that. It is just a fact.
The Leave side have been poo-pooing that fact for four and a half years. They have six months left to address it now, because it is not going away.
The rest of your post is pointless guff. Nothing to do with that fact.
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Glyn Billy, you don't get it do you, the rhetoric has changed it is not them treating us as just a third world entity, it is us now willing to treat them as one, and we will be a dangerous one just off the main continent of Europe.
It can be avoided, but the people now under the most pressure to avoid it is the EU.
We have past the point where that was a political problem, we are out and have the choice of two ways to go, would prefer a fee trade agreement but are willing not to have one and if you want become the rogue on their doorstep, which will happen if the EU play hard ball.
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I don't know this world you inhabit Selby, where a loss of trade divided by 500million people is a bigger threat than the same loss of trade divided by 65 million, but it's not the one that the rest of us live in.
I'll say once more.
1) Premise - The EU sees threats to the SM caused by offering us a preferential deal as a bigger threat than the damage caused to them by us walking away without a deal.
2) Effect on EU action - They will not offer us a preferential deal that gives us a better economic position OUTSIDE the SM than we had INSIDE it.
3) Effect on UK action - We have to decide if we are really going to walk away with no deal.
4) Effect on EU of No Deal: They get a big, negative economic hit in terms of lost trade with us. That is spread between 500 million people. But the SM isn't compromised.
5) Effect on UK of No Deal: We get a big, negative economic hit in terms of lost trade with the EU. That is spread between 65 million people and so is much more intense. We have the possibility of mitigating that hit by increasing trade with the rest of the world. But there is no credible economist anywhere who thinks that effect will come remotely close to making up for the massive hit to us from reduced EU trade. The only people telling us it will be OK are the likes of Farage AND Rees-Mogg.
Nothing else matters. Any other argument is just piss and wind.
When you realise the premise, the rest is just simple application of logic.
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Glyn Billy, you don't get it do you, the rhetoric has changed it is not them treating us as just a third world entity, it is us now willing to treat them as one, and we will be a dangerous one just off the main continent of Europe.
It can be avoided, but the people now under the most pressure to avoid it is the EU.
We have past the point where that was a political problem, we are out and have the choice of two ways to go, would prefer a fee trade agreement but are willing not to have one and if you want become the rogue on their doorstep, which will happen if the EU play hard ball.
Once more, in English?
You haven't got the first clue what a Free Trade Agreement actually entails.
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I don't know this world you inhabit Selby, where a loss of trade divided by 500million people is a bigger threat than the same loss of trade divided by 65 million, but it's not the one that the rest of us live in.
I'll say once more.
1) Premise - The EU sees threats to the SM caused by offering us a preferential deal as a bigger threat than the damage caused to them by us walking away without a deal.
2) Effect on EU action - They will not offer us a preferential deal that gives us a better economic position OUTSIDE the SM than we had INSIDE it.
3) Effect on UK action - We have to decide if we are really going to walk away with no deal.
4) Effect on EU of No Deal: They get a big, negative economic hit in terms of lost trade with us. That is spread between 500 million people. But the SM isn't compromised.
5) Effect on UK of No Deal: We get a big, negative economic hit in terms of lost trade with the EU. That is spread between 65 million people and so is much more intense. We have the possibility of mitigating that hit by increasing trade with the rest of the world. But there is no credible economist anywhere who thinks that effect will come remotely close to making up for the massive hit to us from reduced EU trade. The only people telling us it will be OK are the likes of Farage AND Rees-Mogg.
Nothing else matters. Any other argument is just piss and wind.
When you realise the premise, the rest is just simple application of logic.
Billy isn't one of the main sticking points access to British waters and same quota of fish for E U? Without this agreement it will cripple the fishing industries in France and Spain so I'm led to believe so at the moment it looks like Boris Cummings has his way No Deal
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Glynn, I know you are a bastion of the new lefties liberal elite that belittle everybody and throw out what you think are clever insults and everyone who disagrees with you are thick and seem to just want to get angry and shout how good you are, but it gets a bit tiresome when you have got sod all right in the last four years buddy.
Billy you can whittle those 500million down mate the French,Spanish, Italians, and Greeks are not in it to put anything in, Rumania and some of the others are still trotting about on a horse and cart and are also used to holding their hands out for the goodies along with Ireland and Poland. The Greeks and Italians and possibly Spain will not be contributing as much as a scratched arse for quite some time. That leaves the northern states who do the most trade with us, and are already balking at picking up their mates tab as it is.
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Selby
I'm not interested in your ignorant semi-racist rantings.
Address the point I made about the importance of the SM to the EU.
Nothing else is relevant.
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Glynn, I know you are a bastion of the new lefties liberal elite that belittle everybody and throw out what you think are clever insults and everyone who disagrees with you are thick and seem to just want to get angry and shout how good you are, but it gets a bit tiresome when you have got sod all right in the last four years buddy.
Billy you can whittle those 500million down mate the French,Spanish, Italians, and Greeks are not in it to put anything in, Rumania and some of the others are still trotting about on a horse and cart and are also used to holding their hands out for the goodies along with Ireland and Poland. The Greeks and Italians and possibly Spain will not be contributing as much as a scratched arse for quite some time. That leaves the northern states who do the most trade with us, and are already balking at picking up their mates tab as it is.
Go on, tell us what you think a Free Trade Agreement entails, and let's all see whether it agrees with the twenty years experience of being an International Trade Officer with Customs that I bring to the table.
Still waiting to hear if you think the EU will be punishing us by treating us exactly the same as any other non-member state, or if you think they've something special lined up just for us?
Or are you just going to waffle yet again?
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Billy you can whittle those 500million down mate the French,Spanish, Italians, and Greeks are not in it to put anything in, Rumania and some of the others are still trotting about on a horse and cart and are also used to holding their hands out for the goodies along with Ireland and Poland. The Greeks and Italians and possibly Spain will not be contributing as much as a scratched arse for quite some time. That leaves the northern states who do the most trade with us, and are already balking at picking up their mates tab as it is.
That is totally and factually wrong and incorrect - certainly with regard to the Brexit negotiations as reported last week. If anything the negotiations are bringing the northern EU states closer together - and demanding Barnier takes a tougher line than he was proposing.
As Raven correctly states fishing rights are the big sticking point at present - so nothing else will go anywhere until and unless there is an agreement on these:
For the first time since the start of the negotiations, Barnier this week consulted with fisheries ministers from France, Germany, Spain, Denmark, Sweden, the Netherlands, Ireland and Belgium. Their message was clear: There is no room for compromise by the EU.
"There was nervousness after some press reports that the EU would be willing to concede on fish," said one EU official. "That meeting had already been planned, but it was good to reassure EU countries that we were sticking to our plan."
"The unanimity among ministers was striking," said one EU diplomat who listened in on the meeting. "Ministers all stressed how important it was that the Commission is sticking to its negotiating mandate."
For the EU, an agreement on fishing is a precondition to a wider deal. "Fisheries must not be an adjustment variable or a political symbol in the Brexit equation. No fisheries agreement means no post-Brexit agreement," François-Xavier Bellamy, who is responsible for the file in the European Parliament's fish committee, said this week.
https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-uk-fishing-in-troubled-waters-in-brexit-talks/
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Glyn Billy, you don't get it do you, the rhetoric has changed it is not them treating us as just a third world entity, it is us now willing to treat them as one, and we will be a dangerous one just off the main continent of Europe.
It can be avoided, but the people now under the most pressure to avoid it is the EU.
We have past the point where that was a political problem, we are out and have the choice of two ways to go, would prefer a fee trade agreement but are willing not to have one and if you want become the rogue on their doorstep, which will happen if the EU play hard ball.
Once more, in English?
You haven't got the first clue what a Free Trade Agreement actually entails.
You could have stopped typing after word six, second sentence :P
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this about fishing rights.
https://www.bbc.com/news/52420116
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this about fishing rights.
https://www.bbc.com/news/52420116
fishing rights deserves its own thread
what i heard is the other week was that the EU has no common fishing policy on the mediterreanean
thought i'd check this out
if you google eu "fishing policy" on the mediterranean all sorts of tins of worms
sorry sardines are opened
this backs up what i read about the "no policy" on the med yes this was 2014 . In 2010 we had fake promises reported on a Malta site
A) https://eu.oceana.org/en/press-center/press-releases/european-commission-confirms-91-mediterranean-stocks-are-overfished
"European Commission confirms 91% of mediterranean stocks are overfished"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
B) 13 Jul 2011 European Commission apologises for disastrous fishing policy
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8635623/European-Commission-apologises-for-disastrous-fishing-policy.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
C....)
now this is interesting BST's favourite mate Michael (tip toe & funny walk) Gove "allegedly" said in 2017
https://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-europe/news/eu-fishing-boats-can-operate-in-uk-waters-after-brexit-says-gove/
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The only way the UK could own all the fishing rights is to buy them back but they are not for sale.
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Speaking of fishin in the Med dod anyone wstch the Simon Reeves series of The Med? Every country he visited the fishermen were saying the Med has been fished out they are catching next to nothing
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Australia lost it's car industry due to a government uwilling to look for answers that was happy to to see it go and to import cars. Will johnson do the same? it's not just the car plants it's all the component manufacturers too.
''Nissan's Sunderland plant at risk if UK leaves EU without deal
No-deal Brexit tariffs would make manufacturing in Britain unviable, says carmaker''
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/03/nissan-sunderland-plant-at-risk-if-uk-leaves-eu-without-deal-brexit
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https://www.bbc.com/news/52420116
"If nothing's going to change, the whole Brexit scenario is a lie. If English fisherman don't benefit from this, it's been a pointless exercise for us."
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Well we COULD have an outcome that is a good deal for UK fishermen.
Course, that'd f**k up the rest of us, but, y'know. We took back control.
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Deal or No Deal?
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Creel Or No Creel
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Eel or no Eel
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Deal or No Deal?
The recent changes to allow the lowering of our food standards was surely a clear indicator - No Deal! I wonder how many people knew what they were voting for when they put their X in the wrong box....
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People had enough chance to change there mind in the last election, so I think most people did
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People had enough chance to change there mind in the last election, so I think most people did
Woo food sickness.
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People had enough chance to change there mind in the last election, so I think most people did
Woo food sickness.
good one
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People had enough chance to change there mind in the last election, so I think most people did
Aye. They did.
The 2019 election was THE most single issue election in our lifetimes. All that mattered was Brexit.
46.8% of votes in the 2019 election were cast for parties explicitly wanting to go ahead with Brexit. (Con, Brexit Party, DUP, UUP, UKIP)
52.1% voted for parties who explicitly wanted to stop Brexit or have a second referendum. (Lab, LD, SNP, PC, SF, Green, SDLP, Alliance).
Democracy eh? Bloody hell...
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Deal or No Deal?
The recent changes to allow the lowering of our food standards was surely a clear indicator - No Deal! I wonder how many people knew what they were voting for when they put their X in the wrong box....
I think we have enough evidence from the forum that people certainly knew what they were voting for.
Now whether what they voted for was actually what Johnson was promising them, or what they thought he was promising them- well?
An whether what they voted for is what they are going to get - an even bigger well - seeing as how they are reluctant to actually tell us what it is they want and expect?
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Deal or No Deal?
The recent changes to allow the lowering of our food standards was surely a clear indicator - No Deal! I wonder how many people knew what they were voting for when they put their X in the wrong box....
I think we have enough evidence from the forum that people certainly knew what they were voting for.
Now whether what they voted for was actually what Johnson was promising them, or what they thought he was promising them- well?
An whether what they voted for is what they are going to get - an even bigger well - seeing as how they are reluctant to actually tell us what it is they want and expect?
I wonder if this was what people in Sunderland voted for....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52900528
Looks like it's what they're going to get under a no-deal Brexit.
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Johnson told them it was only ' Project Fear ' and they believed him.
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People had the chance of they didn’t no what they voted for to change that would you agree?
Say what.?
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People had the chance of they didn’t no what they voted for to change that would you agree?
Say what.?
I think he meant ...
Would you agree that what the people didn't know was what they voted for the vote no chance to change.
Clearer now?
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I'm sure that the percentage of voters wanting a no deal BREXIT would be a lot smaller than the one wanting a deal or remain.
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Idler.
You're wasting your time pal.
That point of yours is the key, unanswerable reason why a confirmatory referendum was required. Because "Brexit" was never defined as a thing in 2016. It was an infinite range of very disparate possibilities. And there was and is no majority ever for the specific form of Brexit we have ended up with. In fact, back in 2016, when the Remain campaigned warned of this sort of Brexit, the Leave side called it Project Fear and said you'd have to be mad to want that.
Yet every Leave supporter you ever speak to is utterly convinced that ever Leave voter knew exactly what sort of Brexit they wanted and it was this one.
The art of a brilliant sting is making the mark think that he hasn't been duped. This is the biggest sting in history.
But there's no point discussing it any further because you'll just be hurting folks' feelings by being condescending.
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Idler.
You're wasting your time pal.
That point of yours is the key, unanswerable reason why a confirmatory referendum was required. Because "Brexit" was never defined as a thing in 2016. It was an infinite range of very disparate possibilities. And there was and is no majority ever for the specific form of Brexit we have ended up with. In fact, back in 2016, when the Remain campaigned warned of this sort of Brexit, the Leave side called it Project Fear and said you'd have to be mad to want that.
Yet every Leave supporter you ever speak to is utterly convinced that ever Leave voter knew exactly what sort of Brexit they wanted and it was this one.
The art of a brilliant sting is making the mark think that he hasn't been duped. This is the biggest sting in history.
But there's no point discussing it any further because you'll just be hurting folks' feelings by being condescending.
What is it Billy that could have happened that would make you stand up and say " fair do's " , the country don't want to remain in the EU and democracy has prevailed ? .
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A majority for this kind of Brexit in a confirmatory referendum. As I've been saying for about 2 years.
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I'm sure that the percentage of voters wanting a no deal BREXIT would be a lot smaller than the one wanting a deal or remain.
if people wanted to remain thou there was a general election with parties that stated they would have a second referendum they could have voted them parties, most people will have presumed it would possibly head towards a no deal brexit
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Billy you lost a referendum, a confirmatory vote in the house of commons when even the the majority of all parties voted to accept the result, two Elections with Brexit the main issue, and parliament once again in December passed the result again.
Now it might surprise you to know that I voted to remain, and in the first of those general elections I voted Labour the only time I have ever voted Tory was the last election, and I did not vote Tory because of the attraction of Johnson or any other Tory personality, I voted Tory because of people like you and Glynn and other labour supporters in and on the media phone ins and their and your attitude to those who had different views and the constant undermining of the elected government and the holier than thou attitude
I am sure that I am one of many many previously Labour voters, and original remain voters who have been absolutely pissed off by the constant moaning and vitriol that the remain faction have come out with in the last four years. You and people like you belittling and insulting especially older people and the intelligence of others have gone a very long way to changing peoples minds and attitudes and have quietly entrenched against you as you were surprised to find out in the last election.
And you and others still do it, on here, on TV, on the social media, sometimes it goes as far as being racial against your own country constantly wanting the government to fail. For clever people I don't think you can see a lot.
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Is that all selby? :)
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Racial against your own country.?
Voting for one party not on the issues, but because you don’t like the attitude of a handful of people you don’t know, making statements on a low-use forum and radio phone ins.?
f**k me sideways.!
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Billy you lost a referendum, a confirmatory vote in the house of commons when even the the majority of all parties voted to accept the result, two Elections with Brexit the main issue, and parliament once again in December passed the result again.
Now it might surprise you to know that I voted to remain, and in the first of those general elections I voted Labour the only time I have ever voted Tory was the last election, and I did not vote Tory because of the attraction of Johnson or any other Tory personality, I voted Tory because of people like you and Glynn and other labour supporters in and on the media phone ins and their and your attitude to those who had different views and the constant undermining of the elected government and the holier than thou attitude
I am sure that I am one of many many previously Labour voters, and original remain voters who have been absolutely pissed off by the constant moaning and vitriol that the remain faction have come out with in the last four years. You and people like you belittling and insulting especially older people and the intelligence of others have gone a very long way to changing peoples minds and attitudes and have quietly entrenched against you as you were surprised to find out in the last election.
And you and others still do it, on here, on TV, on the social media, sometimes it goes as far as being racial against your own country constantly wanting the government to fail. For clever people I don't think you can see a lot.
And you have the temerity to accuse others of a holier-than-thou attitude? F**k me, look in a mirror.
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Looks like bst is mostly to blame for brexit though :)
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Glynn, I know you are a bastion of the new lefties liberal elite that belittle everybody and throw out what you think are clever insults and everyone who disagrees with you are thick and seem to just want to get angry and shout how good you are, but it gets a bit tiresome when you have got sod all right in the last four years buddy.
Billy you can whittle those 500million down mate the French,Spanish, Italians, and Greeks are not in it to put anything in, Rumania and some of the others are still trotting about on a horse and cart and are also used to holding their hands out for the goodies along with Ireland and Poland. The Greeks and Italians and possibly Spain will not be contributing as much as a scratched arse for quite some time. That leaves the northern states who do the most trade with us, and are already balking at picking up their mates tab as it is.
Go on, tell us what you think a Free Trade Agreement entails, and let's all see whether it agrees with the twenty years experience of being an International Trade Officer with Customs that I bring to the table.
Still waiting to hear if you think the EU will be punishing us by treating us exactly the same as any other non-member state, or if you think they've something special lined up just for us?
Or are you just going to waffle yet again?
No answers to these, it was just waffle again I see.
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Glyn why do you have to insult anyone that has a different view to you? Why say it’s waffle?
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I'm sure that the percentage of voters wanting a no deal BREXIT would be a lot smaller than the one wanting a deal or remain.
if people wanted to remain thou there was a general election with parties that stated they would have a second referendum they could have voted them parties, most people will have presumed it would possibly head towards a no deal brexit
Bpool.
As I said earlier, people DID vote for those parties in the General Election. By a majority of 52-46.
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Bst it does not work like that as well you no, the point is everyone could have voted all labour as the Lib Dem’s never had a hope, but they didn’t and the people that voted brexit and didn’t no what they voted for still voted Tory
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Right.
So people could have voted for parties that wanted a second referendum. But when they did, it doesn't count.
Whereas when people voted for Brexit after being told repeatedly that a No Deal Brexit wasn't on the cards, that is a sacrosanct vote that justifies a No Deal Brexit.
Have I got your logic right?
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Glyn why do you have to insult anyone that has a different view to you? Why say it’s waffle?
Because it says exactly the same as the last time he posted, ignores the issues and accuses others of doing exactly what he's doing himself.
As to why it's waffle, it seems to fit this description perfectly:
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/waffle
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Maybe just try be nice to someone anyone in fact once you might like it
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Maybe just try be nice to someone anyone in fact once you might like it
Calling it waffle when it fits the description isn't an insult. While we're on the subject of insults, what do you make of people being called racist?
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Depends on the circumstances
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Depends on the circumstances
Read the post that you objected to me calling waffle (without it seems having read it for yourself before objecting to me calling it waffle) and you'll see the context.
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Let's be clear the referendum was called because the very person that called it thought it was in the bag I take it the majority of people would accept that as a reasonable thing to say because he most certainly wouldn't have called it if there was a danger of his Pro EU stance losing .
This played out in his insipid campaign that failed to win the argument , it's a reasonable thing to say because he lost and as a consequence had to vacate the leader of the entire country .
Not only that even the Leave Campaign didn't really believe they could win , Farage couldn't get out of Dodge quick enough and the rest of em had a " feckin hell what now attitude " , it's a reasonable thing to say .
So what we get next is a Remainer who suddenly has the task of taking the UK out of the EU even though she doesn't really believe in it , it's a reasonable thing to say .
So she tests the water once again and thinks well if I have to deliver this thing I want the endorsement of the electorate to do it , even though the stupid cow already had a majority .
She's that fecking good and credible she loses her majority to a left wing leader who spent the majority of his parliamentary career sat on the backbenchers and protesting about absolutely everything , it's a reasonable thing to say .
So what occurs from then on is total parliamentary gridlock , absolutely nothing gets agreed for the next two years because said stupid cow threw her majority away , it's a reasonable thing to say .
It then takes a political chancer with a record in office of total abject incompetence to actually take the country finally out of the EU with a deal that could easily have been agreed at least two years earlier , it's a reasonable thing to say .
And yet it's the people who voted to leave in 2016 who are to blame in some quarters .
You couldn't fecking make it up .
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Let's be clear the referendum was called because the very person that called it thought it was in the bag I take it the majority of people would accept that as a reasonable thing to say because he most certainly wouldn't have called it if there was a danger of his Pro EU stance losing .
This played out in his insipid campaign that failed to win the argument , it's a reasonable thing to say because he lost and as a consequence had to vacate the leader of the entire country .
Not only that even the Leave Campaign didn't really believe they could win , Farage couldn't get out of Dodge quick enough and the rest of em had a " feckin hell what now attitude " , it's a reasonable thing to say .
So what we get next is a Remainer who suddenly has the task of taking the UK out of the EU even though she doesn't really believe in it , it's a reasonable thing to say .
So she tests the water once again and thinks well if I have to deliver this thing I want the endorsement of the electorate to do it , even though the stupid cow already had a majority .
She's that fecking good and credible she loses her majority to a left wing leader who spent the majority of his parliamentary career sat on the backbenchers and protesting about absolutely everything , it's a reasonable thing to say .
So what occurs from then on is total parliamentary gridlock , absolutely nothing gets agreed for the next two years because said stupid cow threw her majority away , it's a reasonable thing to say .
It then takes a political chancer with a record in office of total abject incompetence to actually take the country finally out of the EU with a deal that could easily have been agreed at least two years earlier , it's a reasonable thing to say .
And yet it's the people who voted to leave in 2016 who are to blame in some quarters .
You couldn't fecking make it up .
They're the ones who (the more vocal among them) kept claiming that they 'won' and how the rest of us should suck it up. Are you trying to say that the resultant chaos is absolutely nothing to do with them? If the fallout is so horrendous, should they have voted differently instead of enabling it to happen?
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I still think the worst group of people were not the Remain voters nor the Leave voters (apolitical again there) but the nearly 13 million people who could have voted but did not even bother
In addition there were 18 million others classed as "not on the Electoral Register"
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Wolfie, some just have to have something or someone to hate, and just make a noise.
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I'll be glad when the football starts your posts on that subject are much better selby.
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Wolfie, some just have to have something or someone to hate, and just make a noise.
Yes you do, don’t you.
Some of us feel it is important to speak up against that noise.
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Thanks Syd, not a complete dullard then?
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:scarf: :scarf: :scarf:
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Let's be clear the referendum was called because the very person that called it thought it was in the bag I take it the majority of people would accept that as a reasonable thing to say because he most certainly wouldn't have called it if there was a danger of his Pro EU stance losing .
No. The referendum was called by Cameron in an attempt to put down the far right wing of the Tory Party, neither more nor less.
This played out in his insipid campaign that failed to win the argument , it's a reasonable thing to say because he lost and as a consequence had to vacate the leader of the entire country .
No. This played out because people were hoodwinked by a series of lies and promises that could never be delivered by the people suggesting them, as they were not a political party with any power to do so. How people failed to see this is this is beyond me.
Not only that even the Leave Campaign didn't really believe they could win , Farage couldn't get out of Dodge quick enough and the rest of em had a " feckin hell what now attitude " , it's a reasonable thing to say .
No. The exit poles clearly indicated a leave victory. What Farage did was a stunt - some believe to influence betting prices.
So what we get next is a Remainer who suddenly has the task of taking the UK out of the EU even though she doesn't really believe in it , it's a reasonable thing to say .
Yes.
So she tests the water once again and thinks well if I have to deliver this thing I want the endorsement of the electorate to do it , even though the stupid cow already had a majority .
She's that fecking good and credible she loses her majority to a left wing leader who spent the majority of his parliamentary career sat on the backbenchers and protesting about absolutely everything , it's a reasonable thing to say .
You missed the bit where she bribed, at taxpayers expense, the DUP to take her side in parliamentary votes and keep her in office. But otherwise, Yes.
So what occurs from then on is total parliamentary gridlock , absolutely nothing gets agreed for the next two years because said stupid cow threw her majority away , it's a reasonable thing to say .
No. What happened then was the far right wing of the Tory party blocked any possible progress, even progress that would have removed the possibility of a No-Deal Brexit, leading to the very thing Cameron was trying to avoid in the first place!
It then takes a political chancer with a record in office of total abject incompetence to actually take the country finally out of the EU with a deal that could easily have been agreed at least two years earlier , it's a reasonable thing to say .
You missed the bit where the deal Johnson got was significantly worse for the country than the one achieved by May due to the far right of the Tory party looking to feather own and their friends nests. Other than that, Yes.
And yet it's the people who voted to leave in 2016 who are to blame in some quarters .
It is quite clear, and always has been, that leave voters in the main hadn't got a clue what they were actually voting for as there was never one leave option on the table in the first place. So, yes, anyone who votes for something whilst not knowing what they were voting for is definitely to blame. They had the opportunity to re-examine this but chose not to even though they still didn't know what they would be getting! How can they not be blamed?
You couldn't fecking make it up .
I'm not. But leavers continue to do so by looking for excuses to blame anyone and everyone for their own mistakes!
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NNK.
Accurately put. Especially the part about how it was the very people who pushed for Brexit, who then blocked May's deal. Done precisely to bring her down.
And that is the key. Because Brexit was never, ever about our relationship with Europe. It was only ever about a small group of people on the far right wanting to take over the Tory party and move it further to the right than it has been in our lifetimes.
The fact that socialists like Tyke have been complicit in that and don't see it is just gobsmacking.
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Tyke, Meet the gang cos the gangs all here the gang to entertain you. Probably not them all the noise will follow.
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Tyke, Meet the gang cos the gangs all here the gang to entertain you. Probably not them all the noise will follow.
I'm not sure what medication you're on selby, but if I were you I'd be back to the doctors quickly to get it changed. And I'm being serious.
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I read this morning that the BofE is telling lenders to prepare for No Deal
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Just for the record one more time, in case anyone has any touchingly naive thoughts that Brexit was about the principle of democracy, the process went like this.
1) We voted for Brexit, having been told that it gave us a chance to have a relationship with the EU like Norway and Switzerland.
2) May then negotiated a deal that would have put us in a position that was much more distanced from the EU than either Norway or Switzerland.
3) Johnson resigned from Govt saying he couldn't support that deal.
4) The far right of the Tory party screamed that May's deal was so weak, we might as well have stayed in. They called it "A betrayal of the Will of the People."
5) The far right of the Tory party voted against May's deal and brought her down.
6)Johnson became PM.
7) Johnson agreed a deal with the EU that was pretty much identical to May's in everything apart from the relationship with Ireland, where he agreed to a customs border between GB and NI.
8) We left the EU.
9) It's all the fault of Remainers. Everything.
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Johnson resigned from Govt don't you mean he was sacked?
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No. For once, he left a job through choice, not after being sacked for being caught lying. Hard to believe, I know, but it's true.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-politics-44771278/boris-johnson-resigns-as-foreign-secretary
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My apologies. I forgot bullet point 7a)
7a) We had a General Election that was all about Brexit. The result was that 52% of votes were casts for parties who wanted a second referendum and 46% cast for parties who wanted us to leave straightaway.
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Still lost again though Billy, you had better stop staring continuously at those figures, they don't count or even count for much that is unless you are a dreamer.
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Selby.
You come across as a racist old kitson.
Maybe you arent,maybe.
Have you ever been yo Romania?
I have. I've seen more horse and carts up and down the (A19 Selby Road) than you have seen in Romania. Get you head out the window,or your arse,both would help you to learn a little bit about the outside world.
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Selby.
You come across as a racist old kitson.
Maybe you arent,maybe.
Have you ever been yo Romania?
I have. I've seen more horse and carts up and down the (A19 Selby Road) than you have seen in Romania. Get you head out the window,or your arse,both would help you to learn a little bit about the outside world.
Watch out! You know more than he does so you're going to get called part of the liberal elite, just so that he can ignore what you're saying with impugnity.:)
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I know.
I'm so looking forward to Sunday when when Trump wants to declare Antifa terrorist a organisation!!
I when we played Rotherscum in 84,the NF all over the place. Rangers shirts everywhere you looked. British Bulldog sold in the car park at old BV
I'm at home now.
Then I remember trying it in town,they got battered.
I was proud that day of how they got ran out of Doncaster.
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Yep, liberal elite, holier than thou, educated idiots , take your pick
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Yep, liberal elite, holier than thou, educated idiots , take your pick
Says the man who continually tells all of us he knows more than we do about the EU!!
It used to be called brass neck.
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Selby.
You come across as a racist old kitson.
Maybe you arent,maybe.
Have you ever been yo Romania?
I have. I've seen more horse and carts up and down the (A19 Selby Road) than you have seen in Romania. Get you head out the window,or your arse,both would help you to learn a little bit about the outside world.
Watch out! You know more than he does so you're going to get called part of the liberal elite, just so that he can ignore what you're saying with impugnity.:)
What is impugnity.
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There goes the trumpet call to gather for the usual people making the noise on the left of the perpetual losers.
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Yep, liberal elite, holier than thou, educated idiots , take your pick
I prefer Stewart Lee's description of Remain supporters. "People who are comfortable with facts."
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Yes, that is one of his funnier ones.
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The only 'winners ' are those keeping their money offshore and avoiding the EU making them pay some tax.
Us mugs will pay the tax and get a good kicking as well.
Who's first for a nice slice of chlorinated american muck ?
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There goes the trumpet call to gather for the usual people making the noise on the left of the perpetual losers.
I prefer to call them bitter,racist,pensioner Kitsons.
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That is what you are good at IR, ageism and throwing insults about and very little else.
A small man with a small mind, in fact just a noise and a loser.
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... and not wholly accurate either
True I personally AM bitter at the EU Referendum resut and I voted Remain of course but bracketting all the over 65s as Pensioner Kitsons is plain wrong because my "friend pool" of similar aged people shows it to be roughly 50 / 50 split
Looking at official stats in the 50 to almost dead group the split was 38 - 62 so for each Pensionet Kitson you know 4 of them out of 10 wanted to Remain with 6 wanting to Leave
So you can hardly look at a Senior and say "Remoaner" imo
Also IMO I certainly am not a racist and indeed it would be difficult TO be because my Nephews and Nieces have like others of that generation paired up with immigrants from various nationalities and again statistically the EU vote largely swung on one criteria - immigration
I have heard and read that that was the major reason for voting Leave and so to debunk that "racist" remark simply look at the 40/60 split again (though it is not exactly true of me to say that in this case 40 of the Remainers are not racist while 60 of the Leavers are racist because there is or will be a crossover within those percentages
What is clear is yes I am bitter and bitter as hell as I personally have been dragged out of the EU against my wishes so if that fits your target group then include me in it
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For me this isn't about right or left. This is about right or wrong. I cannot see any benefits whatsoever for leaving the EU. The farming community who generally voted leave are now regretting it with a serious lack of workforce to pick their fruit etc. Food standards will go down. Does anyone actually want "chlorinated chicken"? Apart from Blue passports (which we could have had as members of the EU anyway) and the likes of JRM not now having to declare his of shore banking details, what are the benefits? Sovereignty? Democratically elected officials? Well we have seen how well that works in this country recently haven't we? We can now stop illegal immigrants immigrants entering the country? Oh no we can't. Our kids now cannot have freedom to live and work in Europe? Please please can anyone of the vote leave persuasion tell me again what the benefits of us leaving are. :headbang:
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Have you seen what it is they can't agree on in the trade talks?
What it is that the British government wish to negotiate and you are telling us you voted for?
Looser rules on nuclear safety and money laundering!!!
https://uk.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu/brexit-trade-talks-make-no-significant-progress-as-deadline-nears-idUKKBN23C1KD
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For me this isn't about right or left. This is about right or wrong. I cannot see any benefits whatsoever for leaving the EU. The farming community who generally voted leave are now regretting it with a serious lack of workforce to pick their fruit etc. Food standards will go down. Does anyone actually want "chlorinated chicken"? Apart from Blue passports (which we could have had as members of the EU anyway) and the likes of JRM not now having to declare his of shore banking details, what are the benefits? Sovereignty? Democratically elected officials? Well we have seen how well that works in this country recently haven't we? We can now stop illegal immigrants immigrants entering the country? Oh no we can't. Our kids now cannot have freedom to live and work in Europe? Please please can anyone of the vote leave persuasion tell me again what the benefits of us leaving are. :headbang:
Not now Kato has been asking that question for 2 years or more probably and I dont recall anyone putting up 1 single plus point
... because we could isnt a positive either
.... neither is a Blue Passport
.... neither is we took back control
So can someone add ONE advantage I have gained as I think of poor little pigs being dragged to their deaths because they cant stand up any more due to being drugged in US with a substance banned in 105 ish countries - but liable to be foisted on us as part of the new Trade deal with the US
Liar Johnson has said "it wont happen" like he said the Irish Border wouldnt happen and ... well you know the rest
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I think this meme summs it up and makes it easy to understand for people like selby....
(https://i.imgur.com/8Sghe53.jpg)
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[quote authorTlyStubbsTears link=topic=276859.msg969960#msg969960 date=1591378152]
Yep, liberal elite, holier than thou, educated idiots , take your pick
I prefer Stewart Lee's description of Remain supporters. "People who are comfortable with facts."
[/quote]
Indeed Billy , let's do facts .
EU Referendum Result 2016
Votes Cast
Remain 16.1m ........... Leave 17.4m
Constituency
Remain 242 ........ Leave 406
Tory Seats
Remain 80 ............Leave 247
Labour Seats
Remain 84 ..........Leave 148
By Region
Remain 3 ........ Leave 9
Here's where it does get interesting and forms the point I made the other day .
MP's Vote In The Referendum
Remain 485 ......... Leave 162
But it's the people right ??
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Pick your own facts time.
Which bus was it that had on the side: After we leave the EU we can have looser rules on Nuclear Safety & Money Laundering?
Does anyone have a photo of it? Or a billboard?
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Tyke.
So that's it? You've joined Selby? "You lost, deal with it."
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BST, as a Remainer you don't seem very comfortable with those facts.
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A question for the leavers on here....
If one of the criteria for voting leave was to stop the UK being controlled by 'unelected bureaucrats', (they are all elected actually, but you believed the lie!), then why are you happy with the UK being run by an 'unelected bureaucrat'?
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I repeat. There is no such thing as a Brexit Extension. Brexit has happened.
A number of people are confusing this with negotiation of a new, post-Brexit Trade Agreement with the EU.
I do hope that no one excuses the government if it delivers a bad (or worse, no) Trade Agreement on the grounds that it was doing so under the auspices of Brexit.
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BB
Why would I not be comfortable with facts.
They are facts. I'm aware of them. I accept them.
The issue is, are you comfortable with processing facts? And assimilating new ones?
For far too many Leave supporters, those are the ONLY facts they process. It's like the event horizon of a black hole. Time stopped on 23 June 2016 and no subsequent facts ever penetrated their mental processes.
Tyke has just chucked his lot in with them.
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No BST, whether I am comfortable with facts isn't the issue. The issue is, as a fellow Remain voter you don't seem very comfortable with those facts.
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No BST, whether I am comfortable with facts isn't the issue. The issue is, as a fellow Remain voter you don't seem very comfortable with those facts.
One should always be comfortable with facts, it's the lies that people believe that concerns me.
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According to 'comedian' Stewart Lee, ALL Remain supporters are comfortable with the facts. Probably the biggest fact is Remainers lost, and a lot of them aren't comfortable with it.
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According to 'comedian' Stewart Lee, ALL Remain supporters are comfortable with the facts. Probably the biggest fact is Remainers lost, and a lot of them aren't comfortable with it.
No, the biggest fact is that leavers bought the lies.
My annoyance is, that by doing so they lowered the standards and opportunities that my children and grandchildren should have been able to enjoy. You know, the standards and opportunities that my generation, (many of whom voted leave because they too believed the lies and false promises), enjoyed - all for a bunch of lies that are being exposed almost daily. And even though the lies are being exposed, leave supporters cling to the belief that they were right and would look stupid if they admitted that they were wrong. Fact is, to remainers, they make themselves look more stupid because of that stance.
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Kato, I repeat I cannot answer that question because I voted in the referendum to remain, knowing that if the vote was to leave it would be hell on earth and a mess to get out of, and because of my self interest in my investments that I knew would take a hit.
The week leading up to the referendum vote the markets were so sure the vote would be remain up to I think Thursday night I was 19% up and at opening the day after I was over £80 k plus the 19% profit I was sitting on at close the night before down while on holiday in Wales which I watched all night in the holiday cottage.
The vitriol and insults started immediately with people like Saubry throwing a fit and insulting, belittling, and questioning the right of the common people to vote on such a matter because they were too thick to take such an important decision which resonated with me much more than the money and sickened me to the core. I instantly hated her and the others with their attitude I would not piss on them if they were on fire in the road.
And that attitude has grown, I have become more and more entrenched against those people who use those methods of trying to put a case over that the old are responsible for the result, that basically they are uneducated, and are racist, just because 4 votes went against them, of which in two I voted alongside them in the referendum and the first election for Corbyn.
And the attitude is growing so much that it seems the racism is against the UK and the government and is spreading to want people to apologise for being white.
The hate and insults are still coming from the elitist lefties in the media and will continue to come back to bite them in the arse at election time.
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Lies that were deliberately targeted by Dominic Cummings at people who had been socially profiled by Cambridge Analytics as being particularly susceptible to believing political lies targeted at them.
That's the same Dominic Cummings who delivered Herd Immunity as UK policy, giving us the worst CV-19 outcome of any major country in the world.
The same Dominic Cummings who showed his utter disdain for you, the British people, by cooking up that cock and bull story in the Rose Garden.
But yeah. That vote was a sacrosanct expression of The Will of The People and must never, ever be questioned. Even though every opinion poll for the past 3 years says it would be overturned if repeated today.
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Tyke.
So that's it? You've joined Selby? "You lost, deal with it."
The only thing I'm saying is that which ever way you look at the referendum result whether that be by votes and further analysis Leave came out on top .
The only place where there wasn't a consensus to leave the EU despite a mandate from the people to do so was Parliament itself .
I'm joining nobody and wish to refrain from personalising the issue .
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Selby as you would know, it's always sensible for one that 'plays' the market to have a couple of markers, when your stocks rise above a certain level sell part of your investment to recover your outlay and a marker to sell when your stock price hits a certain level so you don't lose all the value, paper profits are just that.
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Syd, the big hitters were unprepared for it, never mind me, While out and about all day nobody tipped that result, where we were staying up in the Hills 20 miles from Aberystwyth there was no internet connection anyway and as you say it was just paper money. Not the first time I have been found out and certainly not the last.
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Syd, the big hitters were unprepared for it, never mind me, While out and about all day nobody tipped that result, where we were staying up in the Hills 20 miles from Aberystwyth there was no internet connection anyway and as you say it was just paper money. Not the first time I have been found out and certainly not the last.
You should be on the oil companies at the moment, big money to be made, Shell has risen 50% since it’s share price bottomed out in March, as economy’s get moving oil prices will continue to rise and that will reflect in the share price, in my opinion
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BB
Why would I not be comfortable with facts.
They are facts. I'm aware of them. I accept them.
The issue is, are you comfortable with processing facts? And assimilating new ones?
For far too many Leave supporters, those are the ONLY facts they process. It's like the event horizon of a black hole. Time stopped on 23 June 2016 and no subsequent facts ever penetrated their mental processes.
Tyke has just chucked his lot in with them.
Aye so much so Billy that there's nothing more I like to see than negotiations suspended for at least 18 months with the EU so that we can both address the significant economic effects the pandemic will cause .
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That's great Tyke. Lovely wish.
The trouble is, of course, that your vote enable the current crew that we have in charge. You. Voting for Brexit. You put Cummings and Johnson in Downing St.
I suggest you go and have a word with them about that 18 month delay.
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That's great Tyke. Lovely wish.
The trouble is, of course, that your vote enable the current crew that we have in charge. You. Voting for Brexit. You put Cummings and Johnson in Downing St.
I suggest you go and have a word with them about that 18 month delay.
There's actually a significant flaw with that assessment Billy .
The Leave vote attained 17.4m votes in the 2016 referendum .
The Tory vote in the 2017 GE was 13.6m.
The Tory vote in the 2019 GE was 13.9m
Your 4m votes short of making your assessment a Fact with two goes for the price of one .
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Unfortunately your argument has flaws Tyke. Traditional Tory voters will always vote Tory. Many Tories voted remain. The real fools in all of this are the "working class" traditional labour voters who were sold a Brexit built on lies and false promises. Plus don't forget many of the older generation wanted rid of all the "foreigners"!!
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Tyke.
You're missing the point.
The entire Brexit process was always and only ever about who rules the Tory party.
Your vote in 2016 was crucial to Johnson's plan to climb the pole. You have him a hand up.
You put him in No.10. Him and Cummings.
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Tyke.
You're missing the point.
The entire Brexit process was always and only ever about who rules the Tory party.
Your vote in 2016 was crucial to Johnson's plan to climb the pole. You have him a hand up.
You put him in No.10. Him and Cummings.
Totally wrong. Your Party put the Tories in No 10 by refusing to acknowledge the result of the biggest democratic referendum in history.
I honestly can't see what's so difficult to understand about that.
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SS.
Johnson was in No10 before the 2019 election.
And if you think Labour would have turfed him out then by embracing Leave, you are truly away with the fairies. Did you see what happened to Labour support when Corbyn flirted with that in early 2019?
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Tyke.
You're missing the point.
The entire Brexit process was always and only ever about who rules the Tory party.
Your vote in 2016 was crucial to Johnson's plan to climb the pole. You have him a hand up.
You put him in No.10. Him and Cummings.
You see Billy the problem you have is that I personally didn't become a leaver in 2016 .
I became a leaver around 1992 / 93 when Major signed us up to the Maastricht treaty , you are aware Major was a Tory PM I take it .
Which would be at the point when it became a neoliberal project and not a socially democratic one .
So it would be easy for me to spin this one around and point the finger and say Billy is a supporter of John Major and the Tory Party that caused all this EU shyte in the first place .
The problem with that is that I know your not a Tory and deep down you know I'm not given our exchanges on this forum .
So let's say we cut the cr@p and agree we have different views of the EU .
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Tyke.
I see you're floundering, but that's a really poor argument. We didn't have a vote on the Maastricht treaty, so how you derive me supporting Major is quite beyond me.
I'll say again, anyone on the Left who genuinely thought that voting Leave in 2016 was going to advance the cause of the Left or the working class...just bizarre logic. Brexit was only ever about who ruled the Tory party and the rest is just collateral damage.
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Billy, it is a good job we don't have to use phone box's now. You would beat yourself up every day.
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SS.
Johnson was in No10 before the 2019 election.
And if you think Labour would have turfed him out then by embracing Leave, you are truly away with the fairies. Did you see what happened to Labour support when Corbyn flirted with that in early 2019?
Yes, you've caught me out with a rare slip in semantics there. I should have said that your Party caused the Tories to obtain an 80 seat majority. That would never have happened had Labour respected the Referendum result.
2019 was a revenge vote. However, you can relax. It was probably just a one-off.
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Tyke.
I see you're floundering, but that's a really poor argument. We didn't have a vote on the Maastricht treaty, so how you derive me supporting Major is quite beyond me.
I'll say again, anyone on the Left who genuinely thought that voting Leave in 2016 was going to advance the cause of the Left or the working class...just bizarre logic. Brexit was only ever about who ruled the Tory party and the rest is just collateral damage.
Well it was Heath's Tory government who took us in .
It was Major's Tory government who signed us up to the Maastricht Treaty .
The only claim to fame you have is Blair adopting the Social Chapter I'll give you that .
Vote or not you have supported Tory policy .
Yes - No ?
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SS.
Johnson was in No10 before the 2019 election.
And if you think Labour would have turfed him out then by embracing Leave, you are truly away with the fairies. Did you see what happened to Labour support when Corbyn flirted with that in early 2019?
Yes, you've caught me out with a rare slip in semantics there. I should have said that your Party caused the Tories to obtain an 80 seat majority. That would never have happened had Labour respected the Referendum result.
2019 was a revenge vote. However, you can relax. It was probably just a one-off.
Absolute nonsense.
If Labour had actively supported the Brexit that emerged in 2018 and 2019, a Brexit that was FAR harder than anything ever discussed in 2016, they would not have got 20% last December.
You DO know that Labour was prepared to support a Brexit that had us remaining in the SM and CU don't you?
The sort of deal that was thrown out by the Johnson wing of the Tory party as a betrayal of the vote.
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Tyke.
I see you're floundering, but that's a really poor argument. We didn't have a vote on the Maastricht treaty, so how you derive me supporting Major is quite beyond me.
I'll say again, anyone on the Left who genuinely thought that voting Leave in 2016 was going to advance the cause of the Left or the working class...just bizarre logic. Brexit was only ever about who ruled the Tory party and the rest is just collateral damage.
Well it was Heath's Tory government who took us in .
It was Major's Tory government who signed us up to the Maastricht Treaty .
The only claim to fame you have is Blair adopting the Social Chapter I'll give you that .
Vote or not you have supported Tory policy .
Yes - No ?
That's just ridiculous.
I supported LABOUR party policy in the 2016 referendum.
You supported the policy of Johnson and Farage.
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Tyke.
I see you're floundering, but that's a really poor argument. We didn't have a vote on the Maastricht treaty, so how you derive me supporting Major is quite beyond me.
I'll say again, anyone on the Left who genuinely thought that voting Leave in 2016 was going to advance the cause of the Left or the working class...just bizarre logic. Brexit was only ever about who ruled the Tory party and the rest is just collateral damage.
Well it was Heath's Tory government who took us in .
It was Major's Tory government who signed us up to the Maastricht Treaty .
The only claim to fame you have is Blair adopting the Social Chapter I'll give you that .
Vote or not you have supported Tory policy .
Yes - No ?
That's just ridiculous.
I supported LABOUR party policy in the 2016 referendum.
You supported the policy of Johnson and Farage.
I can out date Farage and Johnson by a considerable amount of years Billy , I've at least 20 years on Johnson for starters .
Maybe you should contact Skinner and accuse him of supporting Johnson , Cummings and Farage and see how that works out .
Give it a go , I guarantee he will reply .
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It doesn't matter what people argue. It doesn't change the facts.
People of the Left who voted Leave were complicit in Johnson's and Farage's project. Wittingly or not. That's not up for debate. it is a fact.
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It doesn't matter what people argue. It doesn't change the facts.
People of the Left who voted Leave were complicit in Johnson's and Farage's project. Wittingly or not. That's not up for debate. it is a fact.
I'm talking about one of the most principled man who has ever walked through the door in the HOC .
Principles that commanded respect on both sides of the house whether they agreed with him or not .
A man who would have fought the Tories with his teeth before he'd give up .
And you want to place him in the same box as Johnson , Cummings and Farage just because they don't agree with you .
Says more about you Billy it really does .
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Huh! What has the EU ever done for us?
1. Full access to the largest trading bloc in the world.
2. Free trade deals with dozens of countries around the world, including Japan, Canada and South Korea.
3. Frictionless borders allowing for just-in-time manufacturing, supporting millions of jobs in the auto industry, aerospace etc.
4. Wide-open border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, with no customs or other checks between NI and the rest of the UK.
5. Active support for the Good Friday Agreement and Irish peace process (NI benefitted from PEACE funding of over 1.5 billion euro between 1995 and 2020)
6. Beginning after World War Two, the longest unbroken period of peace on the European continent for over a thousand years, civil wars aside. Friends tend not to fight friends. (This is, after all, the key impetus behind the creation of the EU in the first place!)
7. Freedom for UK citizens to travel, work, study and retire anywhere in the EU.
8. Freedom for EU citizens to travel, work, study and retire in the UK.
9. Scientific and academic collaboration, including access to grants, and knowledge pooling.
10. Participation in Horizon 2020 and successor programmes (Horizon 2020 is the world's largest multinational research programme, and has previously provided funding and assistance for over 10,000 collaborative research projects in the UK.)
11. Collaborative space exploration
12. Participation in the Galileo GPS satellite cluster, including its high quality military signal
13. Driving licenses valid all over the EU. No need for international driving permits.
14. Car insurance valid all over the EU.
15. Pet passports that make travelling with pets easy
16. Simplified system of fixed compensation for flight delays and cancellations thanks to EU Air Passenger Rights.
17. European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) giving access to healthcare in the the EU for free, or at reduced cost.
18. EU-wide mobile roaming (data, calls and texts) at home prices.
19. Portable streaming services, allowing access to existing Netflix and other streaming accounts all across the EU.
20. Erasmus student exchange programme involving more than 4,000 universities in 31 countries.
21. Enhanced consumer protection, including protections for cross-border shopping.
22. Simplified VAT reverse charge mechanism for those selling across the EU
23. Cross-border collaboration on tax issues, to try and hold huge firms like Amazon and Facebook to account effectively.
24. Training courses for the unemployed, funded by the European Social Fund
25. Disaster relief funding, such as the 60 million euro we received for flood relief in 2017.
26. Access to a court of last resort (ECJ) that can be accessed by citizens to hold the Government to account
27. Enhanced environmental protections.
28. REACH regulations and the EU Chemicals Agency, which combine to improve human, animal and environmental safety around chemicals.
29. Safer medicines due to the pan-EU testing regime.
30. Security cooperation, and sharing of crime and terrorist databases.
31. Participation in the European arrest warrant programme that allows for the speedy capture and extradition of wanted criminals sheltering in other EU countries.
32. Participation in the EURATOM programme to ensure the availability of vital medical isotopes, including very short half-life radiologicals.
33. Support for rural areas (long ignored by successive UK governments).
34. Regulations governing better food labelling, including from April 2020 the requirement to identify the country of origin of the primary ingredient in processed food, as well as the country of manufacture of the finished product.
35. EU funding to support the British film industry, theatre and music.
36. Free movement for musicians and their instruments, bands and their equipment, artists and their materials etc., enabling a flourishing European culture scene.
37. Participation in the European Capital of Culture programme, which has previously boosted cities such as Glasgow and Liverpool.
38. Service providers (e.g. freelance translators) can offer their services to clients all over the EU on the same basis as they can UK clients.
39. EU citizenship (it's a real thing, separate and additional to UK citizenship - look it up!)
40. No VAT or duty payable when goods from the EU are imported (great for online shopping as there are no unpleasant surprises in the form of extra charges).
41. Substantial venture capital funding, and the provision of startup loans.
42. Protection for minority languages, such as Welsh, enshrined in law.
43. Mutual recognition of academic and many professional qualifications.
44. Legal protection for foods of geographic origin, e.g. Melton Mowbray pork pies, ensuring that copycat products from other regions can't be passed off as the real thing.
45. The elimination of surcharges on credit and debit card transactions (EU law makes these illegal).
46. EU structural funding (e.g. the £2 billion Liverpool has received in the past) with a requirement for matched private funding to boost its effectiveness further.
47. Support for and encouragement of democracy in post-communist countries.
48. Guaranteed use of EU queues at ports and airports, including e-gates where available.
49. A bigger, stronger presence on the world stage when facing off economic giants such as the USA and China.
50. Products made or grown in the UK can be sold in 31 countries without type approval, customs duties, phytosanitary certificates or other costly red tape.
51. Strong, legally enforced food hygiene standards, including prohibitions on chlorinated chicken and GM crops.
52. Objective 1 funding for deprived areas and regions.
53. Financial passporting, enabling firms in the City of London to provide services to clients all over the EU.
54. Legally enforced 14 day cooling-off period on new timeshare agreements.
55. Access to university education in other EU countries at the same rates their home students would pay (many EU countries still offer free education).
56. Consular protection in countries outside of the EU from any EU embassy or consulate, if there's no UK embassy or consulate.
57. Secure baseline of worker protections, including restrictions on maximum hours worked, maternity leave etc. (We are free to improve on these in domestic UK law any time we like - as indeed we already do in many instances - because they're a floor, not a ceiling.)
58. Protection against discriminatory treatment when working in other EU countries, compared to local staff, thanks to the EU Charter of Fundamental Rights.
59. Minimum of 4 weeks of paid leave a year (introduced by the EU in 1993, taken up by the UK in 1998, and later extended to 28 days in 2009).
60. Right to land fish in EU ports (the EU buys more than half of all fish caught by UK fishermen).
61. Access to a willing seasonal workforce to pick our fruit and vegetables.
62. Ensure a vital supply of medicines (we import 37 million packs a month from the EU)
63. Minimum 2 year guarantee on all consumer products, no matter which channel you bought them through
64. A major say in the running of the EU, with MEPs representating the UK in the European Parliament, judges on the ECJ panel, etc.
65. A say in the setting of the EU budget and on determining the EU's priorities and focus.
66. More influence on environmental policy, since we would have a hand in shaping laws that governed 28 countries (pollution and carbon emissions don't stop neatly at borders).
Source: -
https://twitter.com/uk_domain_names/status/1269217359929249793
I'm still waiting for leavers to tell me just one thing that leaving the EU will make things better for people in the UK. Not if's, possibilities, and may-bee's, something that definately WILL make things better.
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We can have odd-shaped bananas.
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We can have odd-shaped bananas.
We always could.
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The markets say that the current finance package put in place will give the ECb enough wiggle room to keep buying the debt of the southern states until February next year The two questions it raises are how will the German constitutional court react to it? their original judgement was against the ECB normal Bond buying program not the stimulus package and don't forget they were spending money away on Italian Government debt before the additional 1350 billion emergency stimulus.?
2) what happens next February?
Do you just think the ECB can continue buying all of the Italian Debt indefinitely that has to be rolled over in the market?
Do you think the Northern States will continue to fund it when their economies have had a severe hit?
Do you think their populations will be happy to be taxed for the sake of other countries?
Will they be able to without massive central printing of money and the drop in the value of the Euro and consequently their standard of living?
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Tyke.
Get off your high horse and deal with facts not flowery rhetoric.
You and your heroes voted with Garage and Johnson. Dress it up however you want, that is what you did.
And even worse, you enabled the Brexit that they wanted.
Whatever high minded left wing principles you had, it was stupid to vote Leave in 2016. Because you were not in a position to produce a left wing Leave outcome.
It was an irrational, emotional decision.
And you and Skinner have contributed to the shit show we are now in.
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Move on lads.
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We don't need a Brexit Extension, we already have a deal ready to go. Oh, wait....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLhDfUvg-yI
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I'll give you one positive for BREXIT...
Manufacturers of red tape will see their sales sky rocket.
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As johnson said Kato 'rooted'
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Katoe, there are two big reasons to leave in my post, I am trying to satisfy your questioning of reasons to leave.
The answer to your list of goodies is at what cost? and the Question as life develops and countries, would the population have gained those improvements to general life without being a member of the EU? and would the EU have gained so many advantages without our considerable financial input over the years?
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It may help if you narrow down the options of which post you're currently referring to selby cos it's hard to fathom.
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It would be for you Syd, no surprise there then.
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None at all selby
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I'll give you one positive for BREXIT...
Manufacturers of red tape will see their sales sky rocket.
Au contraire tommy.
No more red tape apparently...
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Katoe, there are two big reasons to leave in my post, I am trying to satisfy your questioning of reasons to leave.
The answer to your list of goodies is at what cost? and the Question as life develops and countries, would the population have gained those improvements to general life without being a member of the EU? and would the EU have gained so many advantages without our considerable financial input over the years?
The EEC did pretty well for 20 years before we joined. All six countries went from having weaker economies than ours, to having stronger ones. That is why we were desperate to join.
There's a term for your attitude Selby. "British Exceptionalism".
You automatically assume that we are inherently better than our neighbours, rather than see us as one strong, mature country among many.
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And it was that most ardent patriot, Margaret Thatcher, who championed the Single Market.
This from the Margaret Thatcher Foundation:
https://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/107219
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If Boris Johnson ever finds out that it was Boris Johnson who struck the deal that Boris Johnson says is unfair then Boris Johnson will be in big trouble with Boris Johnson.
https://twitter.com/gavinesler/status/1269562330322481152
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Billy, you thinking that I think I am better than others takes the biscuit when you have been preaching down and continue to do so for the last four years as now Tyke is finding out, to disagree with you and your disciples is to start off a never ending speel of disgust and insults.
Anyway even you and some of the other idiots must realise that when shove comes to push the EU/ECB don't give a s***e about treaties.
The ECB by treaty law is prohibited from continually supporting Italy or any other country independently. To legalise what has been happening the European Court of Justice (Weiss Case) has ruled that previous actions by the ECB were legal if used on a temporary basis, they have been doing it since 2015.
You and I know there is no way the ECB can stop supporting Italy without the whole Euro ponzi scheme collapsing. So the situation is either stop their support (politically a non starter) or try to get the treaties changed by agreement of all the countries involved ( no chance) or try to ignore the unfortunate necessities of law and carry on regardless.
I suggest a quick read of an article in Positive Money.
Treaty change the only solution for the ECB after court ruling by Stanislas Jourdan on May 7 2020.
There are a few points worth noting and I know how some on here like to do their homework, the Italian interpretation of treaties especially.
The continual Quantitative Easing programme is also a way of Federalists in the EU bringing about the mutualisation of debt (by the back door) as a precursor to the EU wide budgeting taxation and debt management therefore moving towards further federalisation of Europe.
I hope Kato will also accept some of this as reasons to get the hell out of it.
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Selby, if I were you I really wouldn't get into a lather about this.
We have left the EU. There is nothing more to say on the matter, surely?
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Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.
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Hmm, so this raises an interesting point.
If we think that the EU is going to be so materially weakened economically by events, then should we push for a trade agreement now or should we hold off until events come to pass and the EU should, in theory, be begging for us to trade with them on whatever terms we like? The latter would suggest that we seek an extension to the current negotiations.
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Nice twist H, don't hold your breath buddy it will do well to go past the end of this month. There is no way we want to be in when the begging bowl starts to be passed around.
If Germany don't want to come out to play it will be fun and games.
Of course if we do not have to make any contributions, make our own laws, and we can form free trade agreements with other countries like the USA and it was beneficial not to disrupt trade for the EU to to carry on trading with the UK I could then see a reason to extend a couple of years, just in the name of friendship and so there is no hard feelings.
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I'd still like to know what you think a Free Trade Agreement actually entails.
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Nice twist H, don't hold your breath buddy it will do well to go past the end of this month. There is no way we want to be in when the begging bowl starts to be passed around.
If Germany don't want to come out to play it will be fun and games.
Of course if we do not have to make any contributions, make our own laws, and we can form free trade agreements with other countries like the USA and it was beneficial not to disrupt trade for the EU to to carry on trading with the UK I could then see a reason to extend a couple of years, just in the name of friendship and so there is no hard feelings.
I'm being serious.
We're not still 'in' by the way; we're out and we've agreed a financial settlement which we'll be expected to honour. We have no obligation to pay any more financial contributions.
This is where people get confused. They think that adopting a politically-based approach will get us a great commercial outcome. It won't. When it comes to commercial agreements, in my experience politicians often look through the wrong end of the telescope. Focus on numbers, assumptions, planning, deliverability and sensitivity analysis is often forsaken in favour of the 'optics' and how it will play with the party, the press and the voters.
So, putting an entirely commercial head on, logic suggests that we keep the opponent at bay until they are weakened. We can then push for the best outcome. Not a bad tactic.
Of course, the working assumption is that the EU ends up being more ph**ked than us.
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Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.
selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong. That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.
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Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.
selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong. That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.
We wont be part of a federal europe.
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Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.
selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong. That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.
We wont be part of a federal europe.
We can have more money laundering, less nuclear safety and lower food standards. What's not to like there?
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Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.
selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong. That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.
We wont be part of a federal europe.
We can have more money laundering, less nuclear safety and lower food standards. What's not to like there?
You'd sell your soul for a piece of silver
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Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.
selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong. That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.
We wont be part of a federal europe.
And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.
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Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.
selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong. That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.
We wont be part of a federal europe.
And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.
In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not
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Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.
selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong. That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.
We wont be part of a federal europe.
And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.
In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not
So, you'd rather the country be poorer than be part of something beneficial? And for what? Sovereignty? That ship sailed many moons ago.
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Nice twist H, don't hold your breath buddy it will do well to go past the end of this month. There is no way we want to be in when the begging bowl starts to be passed around.
If Germany don't want to come out to play it will be fun and games.
Of course if we do not have to make any contributions, make our own laws, and we can form free trade agreements with other countries like the USA and it was beneficial not to disrupt trade for the EU to to carry on trading with the UK I could then see a reason to extend a couple of years, just in the name of friendship and so there is no hard feelings.
We are not in, we left the EU in January.
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Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.
selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong. That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.
We wont be part of a federal europe.
And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.
In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not
So, you'd rather the country be poorer than be part of something beneficial? And for what? Sovereignty? That ship sailed many moons ago.
Sovereignty no, not the best way to put it. It felt wrong to me to be heading towards a federal state. If post 1992 eu hadn't happened and we had stayed EEC then my vote would have been remain. Like I say, some things to me are more important than silver
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If anyone on this thread thinks that extending the withdrawal period would not come with financial penalties being imposed on us by the EU for the right to do so are deluded.
Be under no illusion, the main reason they would want us to extend is for what we contribute to them. It is the biggest Ponzi scheme ever devised.
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Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.
selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong. That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.
We wont be part of a federal europe.
And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.
In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not
So, you'd rather the country be poorer than be part of something beneficial? And for what? Sovereignty? That ship sailed many moons ago.
Sovereignty no, not the best way to put it. It felt wrong to me to be heading towards a federal state. If post 1992 eu hadn't happened and we had stayed EEC then my vote would have been remain. Like I say, some things to me are more important than silver
Perhaps you could explain that to someone on the breadline who will be significantly worse off if we fail to agree a trade deal with the EU - which is looking ever more likely by the day!
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Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.
selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong. That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.
We wont be part of a federal europe.
And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.
In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not
So, you'd rather the country be poorer than be part of something beneficial? And for what? Sovereignty? That ship sailed many moons ago.
Sovereignty no, not the best way to put it. It felt wrong to me to be heading towards a federal state. If post 1992 eu hadn't happened and we had stayed EEC then my vote would have been remain. Like I say, some things to me are more important than silver
Perhaps you could explain that to someone on the breadline who will be significantly worse off if we fail to agree a trade deal with the EU - which is looking ever more likely by the day!
Nope, I dont do 'what if?' Sob stories
I vote for what is best for me, not others as we all do. I am only responsible for my family, not yours or others
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Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.
selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong. That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.
We wont be part of a federal europe.
And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.
In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not
So, you'd rather the country be poorer than be part of something beneficial? And for what? Sovereignty? That ship sailed many moons ago.
Sovereignty no, not the best way to put it. It felt wrong to me to be heading towards a federal state. If post 1992 eu hadn't happened and we had stayed EEC then my vote would have been remain. Like I say, some things to me are more important than silver
Perhaps you could explain that to someone on the breadline who will be significantly worse off if we fail to agree a trade deal with the EU - which is looking ever more likely by the day!
I vote for what is best for me, not others as we all do. I am only responsible for my family, not yours or others
And that is a classic example of everything that is wrong in this country. The ME ME ME attitude and stuff everybody else!
To say that we all do is beneath contempt and I would have expected better.
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Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.
selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong. That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.
We wont be part of a federal europe.
And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.
In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not
So, you'd rather the country be poorer than be part of something beneficial? And for what? Sovereignty? That ship sailed many moons ago.
Sovereignty no, not the best way to put it. It felt wrong to me to be heading towards a federal state. If post 1992 eu hadn't happened and we had stayed EEC then my vote would have been remain. Like I say, some things to me are more important than silver
Perhaps you could explain that to someone on the breadline who will be significantly worse off if we fail to agree a trade deal with the EU - which is looking ever more likely by the day!
I vote for what is best for me, not others as we all do. I am only responsible for my family, not yours or others
And that is a classic example of everything that is wrong in this country. The ME ME ME attitude and stuff everybody else!
To say that we all do is beneath contempt and I would have expected better.
I'm honest enough to admit how my thought processes work. I dont wish any I'll on you or anyone else NNK but I honestly dont care, my responsibility is to do what I think is best for my son. Whether you disagree with that is up to you, again what you or others think isn't my concern
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Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.
selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong. That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.
We wont be part of a federal europe.
And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.
In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not
So, you'd rather the country be poorer than be part of something beneficial? And for what? Sovereignty? That ship sailed many moons ago.
Sovereignty no, not the best way to put it. It felt wrong to me to be heading towards a federal state. If post 1992 eu hadn't happened and we had stayed EEC then my vote would have been remain. Like I say, some things to me are more important than silver
Perhaps you could explain that to someone on the breadline who will be significantly worse off if we fail to agree a trade deal with the EU - which is looking ever more likely by the day!
Nope, I dont do 'what if?' Sob stories
I vote for what is best for me, not others as we all do. I am only responsible for my family, not yours or others
We don't all vote based what's purely best for ourselves.
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Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.
selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong. That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.
We wont be part of a federal europe.
And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.
In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not
So, you'd rather the country be poorer than be part of something beneficial? And for what? Sovereignty? That ship sailed many moons ago.
Sovereignty no, not the best way to put it. It felt wrong to me to be heading towards a federal state. If post 1992 eu hadn't happened and we had stayed EEC then my vote would have been remain. Like I say, some things to me are more important than silver
Perhaps you could explain that to someone on the breadline who will be significantly worse off if we fail to agree a trade deal with the EU - which is looking ever more likely by the day!
Nope, I dont do 'what if?' Sob stories
I vote for what is best for me, not others as we all do. I am only responsible for my family, not yours or others
We don't all vote based what's purely best for ourselves.
I should have said "should" not "does"
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Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.
selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong. That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.
We wont be part of a federal europe.
And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.
In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not
Except, as I've pointed out before, a couple of years back, you got VERY agitated about a sum of money that you suggested we were paying to the EU that in fact we weren't. So the claims that finances don't come into your calculations are stretching credibility.
Regardless of that, your suggestion that this is a binary choice is a silly one. Every country, at all times makes choices between sovereignty and economics. The question is, where so you draw the line?
So, rather than postulate a straw man (that it is a binary choice between freedom or wealth) you could perhaps explain what freedom we gain by leaving that balances the likely 5-10% loss of GDP (with all the consequent effects that will have on our ability to do the things we would like to do as a free country).
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Ah here comes BST, the answer to a question no one asked. Please note I wasnt actually talking to you on this occasion and have no desire to do so until you stop taking down to ppl and patronising on your posts, goodnight
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Ldr. If you don't want other people to join in discussions, stick to PMs.
As for condescending, I'm merely pointing out that a binary "Liberty" or "Wealth" choice doesn't really describe how the real world works. We all make compromises.
If you find that condescending, then we are struggling to have a grown up discussion on a vitally important issue.
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No I find several phases you like to use patronizing and condescending. "Stop and think", "let that sink in" "agreed?". You over and over again insinuate to people their opinions are invalid as you suggest they haven't thought about them. I find that disrespectful and a sign of your superiority complex, whether conscious or not. Therefore I choose to engage with others who can discuss in a civil manner, NNK in this instance
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Your call. I use those terms to emphasise points. When I find some information that shocks or surprises me, *I* stop and think and let it sink in.
When I'm making a complicated case, I think it makes sense to stop and agree the logical steps.
If you don't like that, it is entirely your choice not to engage.
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Big H, not getting into a lather at all, Kato asked a sensible question for people to give him reasons why we should be better coming out of the EU, he claims people have ignored his question and have no answers, I am giving my answers. backed by the reasons why, which are even greater reasons to avoid being kidded on to remain entrapped after the end of this year due to the mountain of debt the current situation has and will in the near future overtake the EU's economic system.
selby, you've speculated as to what you believe will happen within and to the EU. You may well be right, but then again, you may well be wrong. That's the problem with speculation and best guesses - as you'll know from your own financial speculations.
The question I asked, having shown all the things we gained through membership, was for someone to show me just one way that the people of the UK WILL, (and that word is important because it does not rely on speculation), so I'll repeat, 'WILL' be better off outside of the EU.
We wont be part of a federal europe.
And how WILL that make people in the UK better off?
I get that there are parts of the EU that some people don't like, but making ourselves worse off by walking away from something that has the significant benefits I've listed is somewhat akin to cutting ones nose off to spite ones face.
In your opinion, some are happy to sell their souls for a piece of silver. I am not
So, you'd rather the country be poorer than be part of something beneficial? And for what? Sovereignty? That ship sailed many moons ago.
Sovereignty no, not the best way to put it. It felt wrong to me to be heading towards a federal state. If post 1992 eu hadn't happened and we had stayed EEC then my vote would have been remain. Like I say, some things to me are more important than silver
Perhaps you could explain that to someone on the breadline who will be significantly worse off if we fail to agree a trade deal with the EU - which is looking ever more likely by the day!
I vote for what is best for me, not others as we all do. I am only responsible for my family, not yours or others
And that is a classic example of everything that is wrong in this country. The ME ME ME attitude and stuff everybody else!
To say that we all do is beneath contempt and I would have expected better.
I'm honest enough to admit how my thought processes work. I dont wish any I'll on you or anyone else NNK but I honestly dont care, my responsibility is to do what I think is best for my son. Whether you disagree with that is up to you, again what you or others think isn't my concern
I appreciate your honesty Ldr, though I find it hard to understand how you voted was in the best interests of yourself and, particularly, your Son.
Do you believe that we would have achieved all those things I listed if we had not been members of the EU? And, more importantly, do you believe we will retain all of them now we have left the EU, (a number of them have already gone!)?
I have no idea how old your Son is, but I have two young grandchildren; both of whom have lost the benefit to travel freely, to work freely, to be educated freely and to live freely anywhere in the EU. Maybe you don't think that those losses are important to your Son, but others do to their children and grandchildren. And what does/will your Son feel about that in later years when he sees the opportunities being denied to him?
It isn't all about 30 pieces of silver, as you put it, the benefits of membership of the EU have been far greater than that; and I see very few downsides that couldn't have been addressed by our continued membership.
But we are where we are, and I fear the trade deal currently being negotiated will only make things worse, not better. Particularly when our lying Prime Minister is looking to shift the blame for what he obviously know what is to come to anyone and everyone, even though much if not all of what will happen is down to him. I wonder how many people will continue to fall for his lies when even the right wing Express are exposing him for what he is....
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1292372/Brexit-latest-boris-johnson-trade-talks-brussels-news
Watch the video and then remind me, who's withdrawal agreement was approved by Parliament!
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Yep, he signed the doc, boasted about the doc and is now whining about it not being fair?
'Fantastic moment': Boris Johnson signs Brexit withdrawal deal
Prime minister says signing of document will end years of argument and division
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jan/24/sombre-eu-leaders-sign-brexit-withdrawal-agreement
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Jeez, that express article has this gem in the middle of it "The frustration appeared to get to Mr Barnier on Friday when he attacked Britain and accused it of not wanting to fulfil its commitments in the Withdrawal Agreement.", when the whole thrust of the entire article is about...Britain not wanting to fulfil its commitments in the Withdrawal Agreement, by wanting to change it unilaterally.
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Barnier must be at the end of his tether. How on earth do you negotiate with people who refuse to accept what they have previously agreed and signed?
Did you see his press conference last week? He said that Britain was consistently arguing against what it had agreed in the Political Declaration in October. He held up a copy and said, "It's available in several languages. Including English."
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It's makes you wonder if anything signed by Johnson is worth the paper it's written on.
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You wouldn't want him working in the BoE then?
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You wouldn't want him working in the BoE then?
I'm sure they could always use a good toilet cleaner.
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spot on he has a head for it
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Meanwhile, the EU completes another important trade deal to which we would have benefited....
https://www.dw.com/en/vietnam-ratifies-major-trade-deal-with-the-eu/a-53724548?fbclid=IwAR3bCKApFoI8y0StB7o23EiUdIDy9qiPzPvVMpZ-3anqt6Lk-YYeQbFP_x0
And it's been in progress since 2012 which give some idea of the work the UK will have to do to compete - and that while we're negotiating all the other trade deals we will need. Nah, it will be easier to just go to WTO rules with all the issues that will involve, after all, that's what leavers voted for wasn't it?
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Remember when Leavers voted for Norway++ then Canada++. Ahh. Simpler times.
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I wonder if the Socialist Republic of Vietnam (commies) are sponsoring the tory party too :)
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Barnier's own words on the deal,
The Withdrawal Agreement no longer includes The Custom Union as a default basis for the future UK-EU relationship that was included in the backstop.
The future UK-Eu relationship is only addressed in the NON BINDING Political Declaration which points to a Free Trade agreement rather than a Customs Union but this is a matter that will remain open to negotiation in the Transition period presumably after a UK general election.
Consequently the level playing field obligations that accompanied the proposed UK-EU customs union under the backstop have been removed in the revised Withdrawal Agreement to the Political Declaration as an issue for further negotiation in the context of the future UK-EU relationship.
Therefore,
The potential UK-EU relationship is only addressed in the NON-BINDING Political Declaration
The level playing field obligations that accompanied the proposed UK-EU Customs Union under the Backstop have been removed to the revised Withdrawal Agreement and to the Political Declaration as an issue for further negotiation in the context of the UK-EU relationship.
The UK point blank refused to sign a binding withdrawal agreement with a level playing field provisions.
The Political Agreement is not Binding, the Political Declaration only set out the framework for a future relationship for discussion and negotiations.
My feeling is that the UK and EU will come to an agreement and will agree a level playing field provisions but the landing zone will be non regression by the UK it will not be the UK signing any future EU rules unless it chooses to do so.
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Barnier's own words on the deal,
No they're not.
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Barnier's own words on the deal,
No they're not.
You couldn't make it up! Well, selby and, (probably), the Daily Mail could!!!!
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Barnier's own words on the deal,
No they're not.
You couldn't make it up! Well, selby and, (probably), the Daily Mail could!!!!
He didn't make them up. They appear on a website that he didn't read properly.
It makes you wonder if all the other uncredited cut'n'pasted stuff is as sloppy as this.
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Copied from BBC this morning
The government is expected to formally confirm soon it will not ask for an extension to the transition period - despite the coronavirus crisis.
However, there will be an about turn, in the short term at least, on the checks carried out on imports.
In February, Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove said import controls were "necessary" to keep the country's borders "safe and secure" and to collect the appropriate taxes.
Now a "temporary light-touch regime" is planned at UK ports such as Dover, regardless of whether a deal is done with the EU or not, according to the Financial Times.
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Yep Wolfie, smuggling is likely to increase.
I think that leave voters will still say that Brexit is a good idea.
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The line from inside Govt appears to be that they can hide the economic damage of a No Deal outcome under the CoVid carnage.
I'm just speechless. This is like surgeons who have had to amputate both of a patients legs choosing to amputate a perfectly good arm as well on the grounds that the patient wouldn't notice.
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The line from inside Govt appears to be that they can hide the economic damage of a No Deal outcome under the CoVid carnage.
I'm just speechless. This is like surgeons who have had to amputate both of a patients legs choosing to amputate a perfectly good arm as well on the grounds that the patient wouldn't notice.
And completely fail to notice that he's had his knackers whipped off in the confusion.
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Yep Wolfie, smuggling is likely to increase.
I think that leave voters will still say that Brexit is a good idea.
The Irish border is going to be a smugglers' paradise.
Mind you, I've not heard anything about what is going to happen to the Irish border after the end of the transition period lately. Has anybody? It's almost as though they think the public will have forgotten about it by December...
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Glyn, why do you think the Irish wanted to keep no border, it was already a smuggler's paradise, or do you think Paddy McGinty comes over here just for the tarmac season and to plonk his arse on someones front lawn.
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Glyn, why do you think the Irish wanted to keep no border, it was already a smuggler's paradise, or do you think Paddy McGinty comes over here just for the tarmac season and to plonk his arse on someones front lawn.
F**k me, how can you smuggle something over a border that's not there?? Are you really this thick or is this a very feeble attempt to take the piss?
PS Nothing to say about you claiming Barnier said something a Brexit think-tank actually said at all? You seem to have gone very quiet in this thread about it since you were exposed.
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Yep Wolfie, smuggling is likely to increase.
I think that leave voters will still say that Brexit is a good idea.
The Irish border is going to be a smugglers' paradise.
Mind you, I've not heard anything about what is going to happen to the Irish border after the end of the transition period lately. Has anybody? It's almost as though they think the public will have forgotten about it by December...
The government confirmed last month that there will be controls on the UK/Ireland border after Brexit - despite Johnson's assurances in the GE campaign.
https://www.irishcentral.com/news/thenorth/boris-brexit-border-controls-northern-ireland
They are arguing at the moment about whether or not the EU can have an office in NI to check these controls are being carried out
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/may/02/row-over-eu-office-in-belfast-threatens-to-derail-brexit-talks
Still no problems here.
Johnson said he could get his half-baked, oven ready deal sorted by December and I don't see any reason to doubt him.
I would like a bit of detail about what the Brexiteers would like to see in it, but maybe that's just me.
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Having another bad losers day there Glynn? put your crayons and beads away buddy and try to get to sleep.
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Having another bad losers day there Glynn? put your crayons and beads away buddy and try to get to sleep.
So it's the feeble attempt to take the piss option them.
Unless you can tell all the nice ladies and gentlemen exactly how you can smuggle anything across a border that's not been there for the past 28 years. Not that I'd hold my breath waiting for a coherent answer.
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Well Glynn, one step at a time. The drugs are smuggled into Eire. and go straight into the UK over an open border.
The relatively long sparsely populated Atlantic coastline of Eire is particularly attractive to gun runners etc. that have used that route for years and the free movement is no hindrance at all. Sinn Fein and the IRA could probably be better at explaining it to you. Think about it when you are adding those votes up against the leave vote.
Now try to get some sleep.
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Well Glynn, one step at a time. The drugs are smuggled into Eire. and go straight into the UK over an open border.
The relatively long sparsely populated Atlantic coastline of Eire is particularly attractive to gun runners etc. that have used that route for years and the free movement is no hindrance at all.
Well selby, Iin your example, Eire is where the Customs Border is and where the smuggling takes place when entering Eire from outside the EU. You can only smuggle when crossing a Customs Border. There is no Customs Border between Eire and the UK. If you transport illegal drugs from Eire to the UK, you are guilty of possession of a prohibited or restricted Class A/B/C drugs. But not guilty of smuggling. Smuggling is a specific crime, not just whatever you like to think it is.
Clear now? Good.
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go to bed, it has been a hard day for you.
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go to bed, it has been a hard day for you.
Aye. Untangling ignorant posts does take it out of you.
What was it Barnier said again?
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Well, it's official. The maniacs who call themselves The Government have confirmed that there will be no extension to the transition period.
https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-formally-rejects-brexit-transition-period-extension/amp/
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Yes, quite right too. As Starmer said and we have been repeated on this thread, Johnson has said he has his oven ready deal, right there to turn up to gas mark 6 in his electric oven and get it sorted by 31st December. And with his past history why would anyone doubt him?
I can't get anyone to tell me what should be in it tho? Something about gun-running I think - which is up there with lower nuclear safety and greater access to money laundering as things I didn't expect to be a benefit of Brexit, but there you go.
Lets hope they can think of something by 30th December or it will be a thin old deal.
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Gove has said today that we are not having an extension to the transition period because we need to take back control of our borders.
He then went on to say that we won't be implementing customs checks on goods coming in from the EU when the transition period ends. The EU have said they will have customs checks for British goods going into the EU from 1/1/21.
It's late and I'm tired, but that sounds to me like the EU taking control of one part of our border and the UK shrugging it's shoulders and saying we can't do the same.
I'm sure one of our Government fans can explain the logic I'm not getting.
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Gove has said today that we are not having an extension to the transition period because we need to take back control of our borders.
He then went on to say that we won't be implementing customs checks on goods coming in from the EU when the transition period ends. The EU have said they will have customs checks for British goods going into the EU from 1/1/21.
It's late and I'm tired, but that sounds to me like the EU taking control of one part of our border and the UK shrugging it's shoulders and saying we can't do the same.
I'm sure one of our Government fans can explain the logic I'm not getting.
It seems the government are spending £4.5M with media agency MullenLowe London explaining it all to us....
https://www.politico.eu/article/uk-government-preparing-shock-and-awe-brexit-media-campaign/
I found the following statement within it quite interesting.... 'Meanwhile, Brexit voters are “less likely to prepare as they don’t believe in any potential negative consequences of leaving.' Whatever happened to those sunny uplands you leavers promised us?
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I find it disturbing that the government the very same organisation that pursuaded people to accept the shit for brains idea that brexit was at all credible are now saying that those very same people cannot discern that there were any consequences of making that decision. :)
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Here's one....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN4wdAN9I10
How are we surviving without Tim Tams?
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Another distraction? he's got time to make choc bar ads while the country is struggling .............
TimTams are now owned by an american company
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Brilliant comment further down that link:
"Its like having David Brent as PM"
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On the contrary my wife loves them... We also do sometimes buy a few things we liked from New Zealand and it's far too expensive, has to be a positive (just so I can get my favourite chocolate if nothing else).
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And this is what the Financial Times thinks what life will be like post Brexit. Leavers, especially, should read it; it's what you've condemned us to!
https://www.super155.com/britain-gets-a-glimpse-of-life-after-brexit/.html
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Gove has said today that we are not having an extension to the transition period because we need to take back control of our borders.
He then went on to say that we won't be implementing customs checks on goods coming in from the EU when the transition period ends. The EU have said they will have customs checks for British goods going into the EU from 1/1/21.
It's late and I'm tired, but that sounds to me like the EU taking control of one part of our border and the UK shrugging it's shoulders and saying we can't do the same.
I'm sure one of our Government fans can explain the logic I'm not getting.
There was an interesting little statistic pointed out in the new issue of Private Eye:
New Customs agents required to deal with additional bureaucracy after end of transition period:
50,000
Total number of staff employed by the 'bureaucratic' European Commission:
32,000.
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On the contrary my wife loves them... We also do sometimes buy a few things we liked from New Zealand and it's far too expensive, has to be a positive (just so I can get my favourite chocolate if nothing else).
You do know we don't actually need a Free Trade Agreement to lower the tariff on biscuits. We can, just do it:
https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1273242328564727809
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On the contrary my wife loves them... We also do sometimes buy a few things we liked from New Zealand and it's far too expensive, has to be a positive (just so I can get my favourite chocolate if nothing else).
You do know we don't actually need a Free Trade Agreement to lower the tariff on biscuits. We can, just do it:
https://twitter.com/DmitryOpines/status/1273242328564727809
That says nothing about how you can 'do it'.
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Right. NOW I get why Johnson has insisted that there will be no border checks between NI and GB, despite signing a legally binding agreement with the EU that said there would be.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-border-controls-northern-ireland-union-boris-johnson-deal-a9573761.html
We now just say "No, we are not doing it."
Good, eh?
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Right. NOW I get why Johnson has insisted that there will be no border checks between NI and GB, despite signing a legally binding agreement with the EU that said there would be.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-border-controls-northern-ireland-union-boris-johnson-deal-a9573761.html
We now just say "No, we are not doing it."
Good, eh?
I wonder how many of those countries we're planning to do trade deals with will actually believe anything we sign up to when we do things like this?
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Right. NOW I get why Johnson has insisted that there will be no border checks between NI and GB, despite signing a legally binding agreement with the EU that said there would be.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-border-controls-northern-ireland-union-boris-johnson-deal-a9573761.html
We now just say "No, we are not doing it."
Good, eh?
I Love the comment underneath it
"Michael Gove says border controls in Boris Johnson’s deal shouldn’t be implemented as they will anger unionists
Shouldn’t have written them in, shouldn’t have signed them, shouldn’t have gone around denying that they existed at the last election. But you did. Whoops a daisy."
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Right. NOW I get why Johnson has insisted that there will be no border checks between NI and GB, despite signing a legally binding agreement with the EU that said there would be.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-border-controls-northern-ireland-union-boris-johnson-deal-a9573761.html
We now just say "No, we are not doing it."
Good, eh?
I Love the comment underneath it
"Michael Gove says border controls in Boris Johnson’s deal shouldn’t be implemented as they will anger unionists
Shouldn’t have written them in, shouldn’t have signed them, shouldn’t have gone around denying that they existed at the last election. But you did. Whoops a daisy."
That is precisely what he has said, the little tinker. He says that placing a customs border in the Irish Sea because it will "make the protocol less acceptable to the majority community in Northern Ireland and therefore you run the risk of the protocol being voted down in a future election."
Never!
I wonder who could have possibly predicted that?
Apart from everyone in the f**king world outside Johnson's Cabinet who gave this more than a cursory glance.
There have been pages and pages of discussion in this forum, going right back to 2016 about how there were only two possible ways to leave the CU - one that had a customs border between NI and Ireland, and that wouldn't be acceptable to the Nationslists. Or one that had a customs border between GB and NI and that wouldn't be acceptable to the Unionists.
It's about the simplest logic imaginable and anyone who hadn't realised this yet is either thick as a bucket of monkey spunk or being willfully stupid for political ends. Make your own mind up which one of those Gove is.
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In the long run NI will go the same way as Gibralta will as the EU will support member state claims over non member states and these territories will return to their original owners.
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In the long run NI will go the same way as Gibralta will as the EU will support member state claims over non member states and these territories will return to their original owners.
Eh? The EU can't do any such thing. Who do you class as the 'original owners' of Gibraltar and Northern Ireland anyway..?
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I thought that would be fairly obvious due to their respective locations Glyn, as I posted it will be long term but the Spanish are not going to pass up this opportunity I woulndn't think.
''BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Spain has claimed victory in an argument with Britain over the status of Gibraltar, after the European Parliament passed a law that referred to the peninsula as a “colony of the British Crown”''
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-visas/spain-claims-success-in-gibraltar-row-with-britain-idUSKCN1RG199
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It'd make more sense for Gibraltar to be independent.
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I thought that would be fairly obvious due to their respective locations Glyn, as I posted it will be long term but the Spanish are not going to pass up this opportunity I woulndn't think.
''BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Spain has claimed victory in an argument with Britain over the status of Gibraltar, after the European Parliament passed a law that referred to the peninsula as a “colony of the British Crown”''
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-visas/spain-claims-success-in-gibraltar-row-with-britain-idUSKCN1RG199
That Gibraltar thing means nothing. It was an associate EU member territory before Brexit, after Brexit it'll have the same non-member status as the UK has. Somebody with no relevance to Gibraltar deciding to call it something else changes nothing and means less.
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it means a lot to the people of Gibralter , that's why they will vote to rejoin the EU as part of Spain
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it means a lot to the people of Gibralter , that's why they will vote to rejoin the EU as part of Spain
A bigger percentage of Gibraltarians voted to keep UK sovereignty than voted to remain in the EU.
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Good to see we took back control.
https://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKBN23Q38D?__twitter_impression=true
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https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/bxllocks-to-the-red-white-and-blue/?fbclid=IwAR30OeIMHQY02ubei33c3sZlQS2ak2qRDkwzgUIP2Rh9hsKpV2HRSQIG5GU
A spokesperson for the Angel of the North protest that took place today, Kim Sanderson, said it would make far more sense to deal with one crisis at a time: “Whichever way you voted in the EU referendum, it was not to lose your job or be worse off.”
Sadly, as many of us pointed out during the campaigns, that's exactly what you WERE voting for!
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Well it looks like it is kicking off over there in La La land, Varadkar coming into trouble with the greens who are themselves coming in for trouble with the farmers who need a Brexit agreement to protect their largest market.
Merkel is considering sidelining Barnier to push for an agreement, and no fiscal agreement with the frugal four and the German courts dead set on not continually bailing out their med friends.
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What the f**k is la la land.?
If you write a legible post it might help..
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Well it looks like it is kicking off over there in La La land, Varadkar coming into trouble with the greens who are themselves coming in for trouble with the farmers who need a Brexit agreement to protect their largest market.
Merkel is considering sidelining Barnier to push for an agreement, and no fiscal agreement with the frugal four and the German courts dead set on not continually bailing out their med friends.
Link?
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Well it looks like it is kicking off over there in La La land, Varadkar coming into trouble with the greens who are themselves coming in for trouble with the farmers who need a Brexit agreement to protect their largest market.
Merkel is considering sidelining Barnier to push for an agreement, and no fiscal agreement with the frugal four and the German courts dead set on not continually bailing out their med friends.
La la land? Please explain.
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He's making things up from within his fantasy world, poor thing - you have to feel sorry for him really.
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https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/bxllocks-to-the-red-white-and-blue/?fbclid=IwAR30OeIMHQY02ubei33c3sZlQS2ak2qRDkwzgUIP2Rh9hsKpV2HRSQIG5GU
A spokesperson for the Angel of the North protest that took place today, Kim Sanderson, said it would make far more sense to deal with one crisis at a time: “Whichever way you voted in the EU referendum, it was not to lose your job or be worse off.”
Sadly, as many of us pointed out during the campaigns, that's exactly what you WERE voting for!
They could always push for a second Referendum - and I am surprised someone "eminent" or a group of "eminent people" have not done an online petition
There was a huge one of course but even though it got to 11+ Million (might have gone higher than that I dont recall) it was simply dismissed by the Govt as they said " yes but 17.3 million voted Leave in the actual poll
So I would love to see another online which topped 18 million and showed the EU and others that we realy dont want to leave
Get on with it someone
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What about something like the old Danelaw division in the UK where all the brexiters could live on the side of the country closest to the chlorinated chicken and the pro EU group could reside closest to Europe
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Wolfie, we can't remain. We have officially left, its over, done.
I for one am fully behind Johnson in achieving the wonderful trade deal with the EU he has promised us. And like SKS see no problem at all in him achieving it by 31st December (which in reality has to be October so it can be ratified by the EU Parliament) as Johnson always keep his promises doesn't he?
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Of course he does
Not for nothing do I call him Liar Johnson as it makes him sound like the evil B he obviously is
+++++++
I hope then that we see a populist movement to rejoin the EU at the very earliest opportunity. After all the Tories kept banging on about us "staying" in the EU after our trial membership - and with their Party always split on whether we should be in or out eventually persuaded the population to vote "OUT" only 44 years later
So I am in no doubt that a populist movement will democratically take us back in there with the consent of the electorate. I will be 110 is if it takes 40 + years so I can only hope it happens before then
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Of course he does
Not for nothing do I call him Liar Johnson as it makes him sound like the evil B he obviously is
+++++++
I hope then that we see a populist movement to rejoin the EU at the very earliest opportunity. After all the Tories kept banging on about us "staying" in the EU after our trial membership - and with their Party always split on whether we should be in or out eventually persuaded the population to vote "OUT" only 44 years later
So I am in no doubt that a populist movement will democratically take us back in there with the consent of the electorate. I will be 110 is if it takes 40 + years so I can only hope it happens before then
It's worth seeing how it goes first. If he gets a deal then the damage caused by leaving the EU would possibly be overshadowed by the financial affects of coronavirus. We also can't let them lower our food standards or let the US take apart our NHS. If everything goes OK with those points then who knows Brexit might go well. But if we leave without a deal that alone isn't worth it. People losing their jobs, privatising our healthcare and food poisoning hopefully isn't what 51% voted for. This next year will show which way we'll go.
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If only the Tories weren't voted in in 2010 then we wouldn't be having Brexit, even if we still had a referendum. 2010 started austerity which then caused people losing jobs, becoming poorer, etc which allowed Brexiteers to blame on foreigners and the EU, "everything would be different if we were out". People bought into that and here we are. At a time, 2010, when as a country we should have been getting the economy going again we stopped spending which as a result has potentially caused long term hardship.
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Wolfie, we can't remain. We have officially left, its over, done.
I for one am fully behind Johnson in achieving the wonderful trade deal with the EU he has promised us. And like SKS see no problem at all in him achieving it by 31st December (which in reality has to be October so it can be ratified by the EU Parliament) as Johnson always keep his promises doesn't he?
Absolutely Wilts, how could anyone fail to believe everything Johnson says?
https://twitter.com/MarieAnnUK/status/1271425433536466945
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Wolfie, in 44 years it will not exist.
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I thought that would be fairly obvious due to their respective locations Glyn, as I posted it will be long term but the Spanish are not going to pass up this opportunity I woulndn't think.
''BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Spain has claimed victory in an argument with Britain over the status of Gibraltar, after the European Parliament passed a law that referred to the peninsula as a “colony of the British Crown”''
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-visas/spain-claims-success-in-gibraltar-row-with-britain-idUSKCN1RG199
Gibraltar was ceded to Great Britain in perpetuity, Gibraltar is a key strategic position on the entrance to the Med, we will never give that up
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Wolfie, in 44 years it will not exist.
It won't be the same as it is now but it'll still be there.
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Wolfie, in 44 years it will not exist.
It won't be the same as it is now but it'll still be there.
It will be a single sovereign nation
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It might be, just a few bankrupt Mediterranean countries though, or a reasonably rich northern state, which do you think?
The Eastern Europeans will take flight as soon as they realise they will have to chip in money and take in a few refugees, instead of holding their hand out and getting some booty.
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It might be, just a few bankrupt Mediterranean countries though, or a reasonably rich northern state, which do you think?
The Eastern Europeans will take flight as soon as they realise they will have to chip in money and take in a few refugees, instead of holding their hand out and getting some booty.
The casual racism is quite something to behold.
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Don't think there's much casual about Selby's racism.
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It might be, just a few bankrupt Mediterranean countries though, or a reasonably rich northern state, which do you think?
The Eastern Europeans will take flight as soon as they realise they will have to chip in money and take in a few refugees, instead of holding their hand out and getting some booty.
I don't think either of your apocalyptic scenarios are remotely likely. I think there'll be more harmonisation, maybe an extra member or two, and closer workings.
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Billy, there is clear racism in the Eastern States of the EU, and there is a systemic lack of economic realism in the southern states. And more nationalistic feelings towards their country by the populations in the majority of member countries than there is in the UK.
The situation in Dijon in France with the African drug dealers and the Chechens in open warfare with the authorities struggling to contain the violence and now problems in Germany.
The EU has got big problems, and it is you who is racial mate, you see it at every turn as a get out. The modern way of stamping feet and trying to tar someone with a different opinion Glynn thanks for that I appreciate you having an opinion. A little test about that is how well Macron does in the up coming elections.
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I will be surprised if the EU aren’t looking for a new member or two, given that they won’t be getting the £350m per week that we apparently paid them.
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Billy, there is clear racism in the Eastern States of the EU, and there is a systemic lack of economic realism in the southern states. And more nationalistic feelings towards their country by the populations in the majority of member countries than there is in the UK.
The situation in Dijon in France with the African drug dealers and the Chechens in open warfare with the authorities struggling to contain the violence and now problems in Germany.
The EU has got big problems, and it is you who is racial mate, you see it at every turn as a get out. The modern way of stamping feet and trying to tar someone with a different opinion Glynn thanks for that I appreciate you having an opinion. A little test about that is how well Macron does in the up coming elections.
What have Africans and Chechens who don't have Freedom of Movement into the EU got to do with the EU?
And what is this 'clear racism' in Eastern Europe?
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Billy, there is clear racism in the Eastern States of the EU, and there is a systemic lack of economic realism in the southern states. And more nationalistic feelings towards their country by the populations in the majority of member countries than there is in the UK.
The situation in Dijon in France with the African drug dealers and the Chechens in open warfare with the authorities struggling to contain the violence and now problems in Germany.
The EU has got big problems, and it is you who is racial mate, you see it at every turn as a get out. The modern way of stamping feet and trying to tar someone with a different opinion Glynn thanks for that I appreciate you having an opinion. A little test about that is how well Macron does in the up coming elections.
What have Africans and Chechens who don't have Freedom of Movement into the EU got to do with the EU?
And what is this 'clear racism' in Eastern Europe?
Glyn, have you not noticed, he regularly come up with tripe he'd dreamed up with no corroboration whatsoever. He's best ignored, not encouraged.
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Billy, there is clear racism in the Eastern States of the EU, and there is a systemic lack of economic realism in the southern states. And more nationalistic feelings towards their country by the populations in the majority of member countries than there is in the UK.
The situation in Dijon in France with the African drug dealers and the Chechens in open warfare with the authorities struggling to contain the violence and now problems in Germany.
The EU has got big problems, and it is you who is racial mate, you see it at every turn as a get out. The modern way of stamping feet and trying to tar someone with a different opinion Glynn thanks for that I appreciate you having an opinion. A little test about that is how well Macron does in the up coming elections.
What have Africans and Chechens who don't have Freedom of Movement into the EU got to do with the EU?
And what is this 'clear racism' in Eastern Europe?
I wouldn't go as far as to say clear racism but there's definitely significant rise across europe towards the far right .
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36130006
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Which has been balanced off in a rise in approval ratings for the EU across members states. Over 70% in every country bar one.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-eu-survey-italy-ireland-portugal-eurosceptic-poll-a8888126.html
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Billy, there is clear racism in the Eastern States of the EU, and there is a systemic lack of economic realism in the southern states. And more nationalistic feelings towards their country by the populations in the majority of member countries than there is in the UK.
The situation in Dijon in France with the African drug dealers and the Chechens in open warfare with the authorities struggling to contain the violence and now problems in Germany.
The EU has got big problems, and it is you who is racial mate, you see it at every turn as a get out. The modern way of stamping feet and trying to tar someone with a different opinion Glynn thanks for that I appreciate you having an opinion. A little test about that is how well Macron does in the up coming elections.
What have Africans and Chechens who don't have Freedom of Movement into the EU got to do with the EU?
And what is this 'clear racism' in Eastern Europe?
Glyn, have you not noticed, he regularly come up with tripe he'd dreamed up with no corroboration whatsoever. He's best ignored, not encouraged.
I know, because he took what a right-wing think tank said and he said Michel Barnier said it. Completely untrue.
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If only the Tories weren't voted in in 2010 then we wouldn't be having Brexit, even if we still had a referendum. 2010 started austerity which then caused people losing jobs, becoming poorer, etc which allowed Brexiteers to blame on foreigners and the EU, "everything would be different if we were out". People bought into that and here we are. At a time, 2010, when as a country we should have been getting the economy going again we stopped spending which as a result has potentially caused long term hardship.
You've got the Lib Dems to thank for that, DO. They not only abandoned their Liberal principles to get into bed with the Tories, they voted for Austerity as well.
Snake oil salesmen, the lot of them.
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Which has been balanced off in a rise in approval ratings for the EU across members states. Over 70% in every country bar one.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/brexit-eu-survey-italy-ireland-portugal-eurosceptic-poll-a8888126.html
Well I would consider it a mistake for the EU to ignore the far right bums that are getting put on member states parliaments myself .
A random poll conducted by whoever on approval ratings wouldn't necessarily stack up for me personally when the far right are increasing their vote share across europe .
If the EU want to be in denial then so be it , no skin off my nose .
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Well Tyke, they are lucky that one country with a Far Right Govt made it easy for them by leaving.
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Well Tyke, they are lucky that one country with a Far Right Govt made it easy for them by leaving.
Billy I'm not attempting to open up old wounds but to suggest everything is hunky dory within the members states inside the EU would be a huge mistake on their part in my opinion , that's it and nothing more than that .
The evidence is pretty clear across europe that the far right support is growing and it's hardly anything new either given European history .
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Not sure I've ever done that Tyke. You're tilting at windmills. I was pointing out where Hungary and Poland were heading many years ago in here.
Do you reckon that they would be paragons of left-liberal social harmony outside the EU? Or that the effort to control the would-be demagogues there is aided by us leaving and lurching to the xenophobic right ourselves?
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Not sure I've ever done that Tyke. You're tilting at windmills. I was pointing out where Hungary and Poland were heading many years ago in here.
Do you reckon that they would be paragons of left-liberal social harmony outside the EU? Or that the effort to control the would-be demagogues there is aided by us leaving and lurching to the xenophobic right ourselves?
Speaking from personal experience and having worked alongside many young eastern europeans I can honestly say without a shadow of doubt they are the most racist group I've ever encountered , I say that from personal experience and from a position of working alongside them in the UK but haven't ever visited eastern europe myself but I suppose decades of communism is hardly likely to float their boat when it comes to left wing politics whether they were EU members or not .
What we have going on right now is a culture war and the fact the Tories will do almost anything to gain power , if they can fan the flames of subtle racism to win elections then that's what they'll do , they have much to protect after all .
I take the view the Tories believe in nowt other than the ruthless pursuit of power and the protection and enhancement of great wealth , if xenophobia ticks the box then so be it , they'd all take the knee too if that worked for them .
Attempting to put the Tories inside a single box is a fruitless exercise , who was it that took us in to the EU and who signed us up to the Maastricht Treaty ?
Looking at them today they've practically erased history to keep themselves in the game .
Where do Labour fit in to all this , quite frankly I don't know to tell the truth .
Since the BLM began I know I've seen some comments in disturbing numbers over here that suggest the Tories are on the right side of wrong which have even led to a former player Bruce Dyer who works in the community sector in the town considering his position and a number of our black players are equally alarmed .
I haven't the answers other than pro EU chest thumping isn't going to win Labour the next election and the wearing of a union jack waiscoat when canvassing around the old heartlands would be a smart choice .
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If only the Tories weren't voted in in 2010 then we wouldn't be having Brexit, even if we still had a referendum. 2010 started austerity which then caused people losing jobs, becoming poorer, etc which allowed Brexiteers to blame on foreigners and the EU, "everything would be different if we were out". People bought into that and here we are. At a time, 2010, when as a country we should have been getting the economy going again we stopped spending which as a result has potentially caused long term hardship.
When the tories talk about levelling up they actually mean razing to the ground.
This: ''Labour councils in England hit harder by austerity than Tory areas
Exclusive: analysis by Guardian and Sigoma shows poorer, Labour-held areas lost over a third of spending power''
‘'In his budget speech on 22 June, 2010, Osborne said his plans would be fair and would protect “the most vulnerable in society” while eliminating the government’s budget deficit.
But the new analysis reveals that, on average, Labour councils saw their spending power reduced by 34%, while the average Conservative council suffered an equivalent decline of less than a quarter (24%). Of the 50 councils which received the deepest budget cuts, 28 were Labour controlled in 2010, while just six were Conservative. The remainder were Liberal Democrat controlled (two) or had no overall control (14)’’
The disparity grew by the end of the decade, with 38 of the 50 worst-hit councils being Labour-controlled while only five were Conservative authorities.
Hackney council reported the biggest percentage cut of any council, losing £180m in real terms, a 41% decline in its spending power. Newham, another east London borough, and Knowsley and Manchester in the north-west of England all suffered similarly deep cuts. All are also Labour areas with high levels of deprivation.
Labour council leaders from the worst-hit areas have told the Guardian that the cuts were so politically skewed as to feel like electoral manipulation. Graham Morgan, Labour leader of Knowsley council, said the targeting of Labour authorities was
“deliberate, and the equivalent of gerrymandering. Funding of some of the most affluent areas increased while ours decreased.”
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/21/exclusive-labour-councils-in-england-hit-harder-by-austerity-than-tory-areas
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This is taking back control....
https://www.gov.uk/visit-europe-1-january-2021/business-travel-extra-requirements
Here's a list of the countries within the EU, (including countries who have trade deals with them), who will require us as a 3rd country to comply with their specific rules....
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/providing-services-to-eea-and-efta-countries-after-eu-exit
Let's just have a look at just one of the main ones....
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/france-providing-services-after-eu-exit
You really do have to love our 'taking back control', well, unless you've worked it out that it was a lie in the first place!
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This is taking back control....
https://www.gov.uk/visit-europe-1-january-2021/business-travel-extra-requirements
Here's a list of the countries within the EU, (including countries who have trade deals with them), who will require us as a 3rd country to comply with their specific rules....
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/providing-services-to-eea-and-efta-countries-after-eu-exit
Let's just have a look at just one of the main ones....
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/france-providing-services-after-eu-exit
You really do have to love our 'taking back control', well, unless you've worked it out that it was a lie in the first place!
Us 'taking back control' also means the EU doing the same when we interact with them after Brexit. Some people don't seem to grasp this.
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This is taking back control....
https://www.gov.uk/visit-europe-1-january-2021/business-travel-extra-requirements
Here's a list of the countries within the EU, (including countries who have trade deals with them), who will require us as a 3rd country to comply with their specific rules....
https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/providing-services-to-eea-and-efta-countries-after-eu-exit
Let's just have a look at just one of the main ones....
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/france-providing-services-after-eu-exit
You really do have to love our 'taking back control', well, unless you've worked it out that it was a lie in the first place!
Us 'taking back control' also means the EU doing the same when we interact with them after Brexit. Some people don't seem to grasp this.
They only have to make one change, we have to make how many.... Some people don't seem to grasp this.
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-stanley-johnson-boris-french-passport-rachel-book-rakes-progress-a9416636.html
Is this satire?
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-stanley-johnson-boris-french-passport-rachel-book-rakes-progress-a9416636.html
Is this satire?
In fairness, he's always been a supporter of the EU and can see the advantages of being part of it. Pity so many people failed to see those advantages and were seduced by so many lies!
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:that:
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Boris Johnson would have been for remain if it had meant or given him a better chance of becoming PM.
That is the sad thing
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The whole family has always been pro-EU. Boris was, until he realised it'd boost his career if he argued that he wasn't.
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Idler, your theory has just backed up the fact that in 2016 when the referendum took place, in spite of a government backing staying in, outspending by a massive margin the leave movement, and the EU leaders making statements and threats of punishment. the UK electorate voted to leave.
Something that for four years some cannot come to terms with, and in spite of all the rhetoric, meetings in secret with EU leaders by all the opposition parties and luminaries such as Starmer, a fifth column of entertainment stars and the BBC, guess what? they lost two elections on the same ticket, the second by a landslide.
I am expecting bodies in the rivers if we happen to get a free trade deal and things go well.
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I'm not so sure Selby. Farage might not have attracted as many Tory voters across without BJ.
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Idler, your theory has just backed up the fact that in 2016 when the referendum took place, in spite of a government backing staying in, outspending by a massive margin the leave movement, and the EU leaders making statements and threats of punishment. the UK electorate voted to leave.
Something that for four years some cannot come to terms with, and in spite of all the rhetoric, meetings in secret with EU leaders by all the opposition parties and luminaries such as Starmer, a fifth column of entertainment stars and the BBC, guess what? they lost two elections on the same ticket, the second by a landslide.
I am expecting bodies in the rivers if we happen to get a free trade deal and things go well.
Can’t come to terms with it.?
I would contend a huge amount of remain voters have come to terms with it, but many more leave voters haven’t come to terms with the car crash that brexit is actually becoming..
Wanting to get the best for the country isn’t denying the actual result.. keep your “ha ha you lost” perspective for the playground where it belongs..
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Idler, your theory has just backed up the fact that in 2016 when the referendum took place, in spite of a government backing staying in, outspending by a massive margin the leave movement, and the EU leaders making statements and threats of punishment. the UK electorate voted to leave.
Something that for four years some cannot come to terms with, and in spite of all the rhetoric, meetings in secret with EU leaders by all the opposition parties and luminaries such as Starmer, a fifth column of entertainment stars and the BBC, guess what? they lost two elections on the same ticket, the second by a landslide.
I am expecting bodies in the rivers if we happen to get a free trade deal and things go well.
Meetings in secret by all the opposition parties?
Does that include the ones Farage had?
And were there any other 'secret' meetings that I missed. Because the only ones I remember are the ones that were on the front pages of the newspapers with press conferences after - thats how 'secret' they were?
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Idler, your theory has just backed up the fact that in 2016 when the referendum took place, in spite of a government backing staying in, outspending by a massive margin the leave movement, and the EU leaders making statements and threats of punishment. the UK electorate voted to leave.
Something that for four years some cannot come to terms with, and in spite of all the rhetoric, meetings in secret with EU leaders by all the opposition parties and luminaries such as Starmer, a fifth column of entertainment stars and the BBC, guess what? they lost two elections on the same ticket, the second by a landslide.
I am expecting bodies in the rivers if we happen to get a free trade deal and things go well.
A Free Trade Agreement (which you have shown no evidence of knowing the slightest thing of understanding) will still be worse for the UK economy than remaining in the Single Market. Having said that, having an FTA will still be much better than the economic suicide of going No Deal.
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But in order for there to be a FTA we will have to follow EU rules and the Northern Ireland protocol with border checks to the mainland.
Is that really Brexit?
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Glyn, you get this We don't want to remain in the single market, with the restrictions it would place on us, can you understand that?
Wilts stop getting your knickers in a twist, the opposition parties formed what was really a fifth column to undermine the leave campaign, they were and are disgusting in their attitude to the UK electorate.
You and they still don't realise how counter productive the whole campaign by the leave big wigs was, and how belittling your opposition entrenched the leave voters, you failed to pick up on the fact that the bullying from all sides was just getting the cold shoulder.
The calling people thick, uneducated, they don't know what they are doing, gammon, just got the B******s to that treatment and you still don't get it.
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But in order for there to be a FTA we will have to follow EU rules and the Northern Ireland protocol with border checks to the mainland.
Is that really Brexit?
Wilts, I am thinking back to those leave voters who told me they voted that way “so we can get back control of our borders”
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I do keep asking hound but no one seems prepared to say exactly what it is we should be expecting to see for this to be a 'good' agreement.
Lower nuclear safety standards, lower food standards, greater capacity for money laundering - thats what the govenment appear to want. Is this what the people who voted Leave want?
What would be a good deal? What would be a bad one?
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Glyn, you get this We don't want to remain in the single market, with the restrictions it would place on us, can you understand that?
Wilts stop getting your knickers in a twist, the opposition parties formed what was really a fifth column to undermine the leave campaign, they were and are disgusting in their attitude to the UK electorate.
You and they still don't realise how counter productive the whole campaign by the leave big wigs was, and how belittling your opposition entrenched the leave voters, you failed to pick up on the fact that the bullying from all sides was just getting the cold shoulder.
The calling people thick, uneducated, they don't know what they are doing, gammon, just got the B******s to that treatment and you still don't get it.
Selby, there's only one person here getting there knickers in a twist and it ain't me. It's not me claiming that well advertised meetings with press conferences afterwards were 'secret'.
I don't care about the campaign anymore. I have accepted the result - it seems you can't. You won. Get over it. Tell us all how great it is going to be now because...
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I've always been intrigued by those that could persuade suicide bombers that they would have a better future if they would just release the trigger. :)
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But in order for there to be a FTA we will have to follow EU rules and the Northern Ireland protocol with border checks to the mainland.
Is that really Brexit?
In order to have an FTA both we and the EU will have to follow rules that we decide between ourselves. I would imagine that the rules that are already used for movements between the EU and third countries would be the default.
Border checks - wherever the Customs Border between the UK and the EU is deemed to be - are inevitable once we leave the Single Market, even if we have an FTA. Don't let anyone bullshit you with the 'we don't know what the arrangements are going be' waffle, there will be checks.
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Glyn, you get this We don't want to remain in the single market, with the restrictions it would place on us, can you understand that?
The whole point of the Single Market is doing away with restrictions, can you understand that??
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I do keep asking hound but no one seems prepared to say exactly what it is we should be expecting to see for this to be a 'good' agreement.
Lower nuclear safety standards, lower food standards, greater capacity for money laundering - thats what the govenment appear to want. Is this what the people who voted Leave want?
What would be a good deal? What would be a bad one?
I don’t think anyone actually knows what a good or a bad deal is wilts.
To be fair, we could end up in a better position, but then again we might not.
Only the passing of time will answer that, probably a long time.
In about ten years someone will post in here and tell us that they knew all along what the outcome was going to be (with the benefit of hindsight of course).
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I do keep asking hound but no one seems prepared to say exactly what it is we should be expecting to see for this to be a 'good' agreement.
Lower nuclear safety standards, lower food standards, greater capacity for money laundering - thats what the govenment appear to want. Is this what the people who voted Leave want?
What would be a good deal? What would be a bad one?
I don’t think anyone actually knows what a good or a bad deal is wilts.
To be fair, we could end up in a better position, but then again we might not.
Only the passing of time will answer that, probably a long time.
In about ten years someone will post in here and tell us that they knew all along what the outcome was going to be (with the benefit of hindsight of course).
Hound, how on God's green earth can we end up in a better position? Tell me one club on the planet where you can get a better deal not being a member than members of that club can.
People were seduced by lies and false promises. Where are all these unicorns going to come from? It should be quite clear by now that they don't need us more than we need them!
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I do keep asking hound but no one seems prepared to say exactly what it is we should be expecting to see for this to be a 'good' agreement.
Lower nuclear safety standards, lower food standards, greater capacity for money laundering - thats what the govenment appear to want. Is this what the people who voted Leave want?
What would be a good deal? What would be a bad one?
That's crap hound a good deal is a deal better than what is available today one that serves people's needs better, how the hell do you think with less bargaining power that a better deal could be obtained with anyone, only with the passing of time????
So if lower food standards, worse conditions for workers, curtailed human rights are used to gain worse trade deals how long do you think it will take the populace to notice?
I don’t think anyone actually knows what a good or a bad deal is wilts.
To be fair, we could end up in a better position, but then again we might not.
Only the passing of time will answer that, probably a long time.
In about ten years someone will post in here and tell us that they knew all along what the outcome was going to be (with the benefit of hindsight of course).
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Two of the Leftwaffe out early today.
As I said, we won’t know for a few years.
Of course a good deal is better than a bad one.
Do you know for a fact that we won’t get a good deal or that other countries won’t want to deal with us (that’s the UK by the way SR).
I agree though NNK, the voters were deceived by lies by the Brexit people.
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“Leftwaffe”
Really.? You’re better than that surely.?
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Two of the Leftwaffe out early today.
As I said, we won’t know for a few years.
Of course a good deal is better than a bad one.
Do you know for a fact that we won’t get a good deal or that other countries won’t want to deal with us (that’s the UK by the way SR).
I agree though NNK, the voters were deceived by lies by the Brexit people.
I would love to know how we can get a better deal with the EU than the one we had before we decided to leave. Even a supposed good deal, (whatever that turns out to be - if anything), can never be as good - it would be pointless for the EU to exist otherwise, they simply can't treat us as equal to the members of their club let alone better!
Have you looked at those links I posted earlier, from out own Government, telling business in the UK what they will have to do to trade with each individual nation in the EU? Have you considered the implications on UK business?
Oh, and we already trade with the rest of the world via trade deals struck with the EU. Do you, or anyone here, think that we as a small island can get better deals with the rest of the world than the ones we had as part of the EU? Have a look what New Zealand think....
https://www.politik.co.nz/2020/06/18/nz-ready-to-get-heavy-with-the-uk/
It isn't about being left, or right, or centre; it's about what's best for this country. Why would anyone in their right mind want to downgrade?
But I am glad you agree that those who voted Leave were deceived by the lies of the Leave Campaigns; sadly, we're now about to pay the price for that.
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I suppose that why various businesses form trade groups, take plumbers merchants for instance a few of them could get together and form a commercial alliance buy in bulk and get a better discount from an OEM or supplier that sort of thing. It's fairly straight forward no magic about it.
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Well I accept that people have different views to me, but I think that the biggest difference between us is that I absolutely defend your right to do so, but it would be nice and a change for you lot to try and do so without belittling and insulting other peoples views and accept that others do not agree.
That is one of the remains biggest problems, reading the populations mood, and what they wanted. which caused entrenchment and resentment, something that a political movement can never overcome.
Lose someone and they are very hard to recover, the Labour movement in this country will have to learn to live with that.
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Well I accept that people have different views to me, but I think that the biggest difference between us is that I absolutely defend your right to do so, but it would be nice and a change for you lot to try and do so without belittling and insulting other peoples views and accept that others do not agree.
That is one of the remains biggest problems, reading the populations mood, and what they wanted. which caused entrenchment and resentment, something that a political movement can never overcome.
Lose someone and they are very hard to recover, the Labour movement in this country will have to learn to live with that.
It's one thing to have a different view selby, quite another to fail to justify it. Often, it's been a case of failing to even try to justify it.
I, and others, consistently posted the benefits of membership of the EU. I even posted a list of all the things we're losing by no longer being a member. I've also frequently asked those who voted leave to tell me one way the UK WILL be better off outside the EU, and to date no one has! Had it been evident that leaving the EU would have made us better off then believe you me I would have been shouting it from the rooftops.
Have you looked at any of the UK Government links I posted as to what leaving means to our businesses? Can YOU tell me how the UK WILL be better off outside the EU, not if's but's maybe's and with a fair wind... just WILL?
Leavers haven't just shot themselves in the foot....
(https://i.imgur.com/FtALUs7.gif)
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Kato, very funny, but just another pop at belittling people who don't agree with your opinion.
You don't learn, it is like water off a ducks back here mate, I just chuck the hook and don't even put on a worm.
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Kato, very funny, but just another pop at belittling people who don't agree with your opinion.
You don't learn, it is like water off a ducks back here mate, I just chuck the hook and don't even put on a worm.
But it's not my opinion selby, what I've posted are facts backed by links to the facts; something you seem to be unable to do in spite of being given the opportunity. I respect your right to your own opinion, but when you fail to qualify it you do look, well, rather silly to be honest - just like your fishing without a worm!
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Kato, very funny, but just another pop at belittling people who don't agree with your opinion.
You don't learn, it is like water off a ducks back here mate, I just chuck the hook and don't even put on a worm.
So you are a self confessed WUM. Hope the mods take note..
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“Leftwaffe”
Really.? You’re better than that surely.?
Yes, I usually am IDM, but not when someone says my post was a load of crap.
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Well I accept that people have different views to me, but I think that the biggest difference between us is that I absolutely defend your right to do so, but it would be nice and a change for you lot to try and do so without belittling and insulting other peoples views and accept that others do not agree.
That is one of the remains biggest problems, reading the populations mood, and what they wanted. which caused entrenchment and resentment, something that a political movement can never overcome.
Lose someone and they are very hard to recover, the Labour movement in this country will have to learn to live with that.
From someone who attributed a quote to completely the wrong person and has never acknowledged doing so I don't think you're in a position to lecture anyone about free speech.
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Two of the Leftwaffe out early today.
As I said, we won’t know for a few years.
Of course a good deal is better than a bad one.
Do you know for a fact that we won’t get a good deal or that other countries won’t want to deal with us (that’s the UK by the way SR).
I agree though NNK, the voters were deceived by lies by the Brexit people.
I would love to know how we can get a better deal with the EU than the one we had before we decided to leave. Even a supposed good deal, (whatever that turns out to be - if anything), can never be as good - it would be pointless for the EU to exist otherwise, they simply can't treat us as equal to the members of their club let alone better!
Have you looked at those links I posted earlier, from out own Government, telling business in the UK what they will have to do to trade with each individual nation in the EU? Have you considered the implications on UK business?
Oh, and we already trade with the rest of the world via trade deals struck with the EU. Do you, or anyone here, think that we as a small island can get better deals with the rest of the world than the ones we had as part of the EU? Have a look what New Zealand think....
https://www.politik.co.nz/2020/06/18/nz-ready-to-get-heavy-with-the-uk/
It isn't about being left, or right, or centre; it's about what's best for this country. Why would anyone in their right mind want to downgrade?
But I am glad you agree that those who voted Leave were deceived by the lies of the Leave Campaigns; sadly, we're now about to pay the price for that.
No NNK, I haven’t read the links that you posted.
Better off isn’t just about any deals we get is it.
Apparently we don’t have to pay £350m a week into the EU coffers so that would be a good start wouldn’t it.
But, as I said, no one can know for a fact that we won’t be better off.
I will put a note into my phone to see how we are in ten years and we can revisit this conversation.
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Two of the Leftwaffe out early today.
As I said, we won’t know for a few years.
Of course a good deal is better than a bad one.
Do you know for a fact that we won’t get a good deal or that other countries won’t want to deal with us (that’s the UK by the way SR).
I agree though NNK, the voters were deceived by lies by the Brexit people.
I would love to know how we can get a better deal with the EU than the one we had before we decided to leave. Even a supposed good deal, (whatever that turns out to be - if anything), can never be as good - it would be pointless for the EU to exist otherwise, they simply can't treat us as equal to the members of their club let alone better!
Have you looked at those links I posted earlier, from out own Government, telling business in the UK what they will have to do to trade with each individual nation in the EU? Have you considered the implications on UK business?
Oh, and we already trade with the rest of the world via trade deals struck with the EU. Do you, or anyone here, think that we as a small island can get better deals with the rest of the world than the ones we had as part of the EU? Have a look what New Zealand think....
https://www.politik.co.nz/2020/06/18/nz-ready-to-get-heavy-with-the-uk/
It isn't about being left, or right, or centre; it's about what's best for this country. Why would anyone in their right mind want to downgrade?
But I am glad you agree that those who voted Leave were deceived by the lies of the Leave Campaigns; sadly, we're now about to pay the price for that.
No NNK, I haven’t read the links that you posted.
Better off isn’t just about any deals we get is it.
Apparently we don’t have to pay £350m a week into the EU coffers so that would be a good start wouldn’t it.
But, as I said, no one can know for a fact that we won’t be better off.
I will put a note into my phone to see how we are in ten years and we can revisit this conversation.
Perhaps you should take the time to have a look at those links as they are nothing at all to do with us being better or worse off.
And we never EVER paid the EU £350m a week. NEVER! EVER! Why do people keep expounding the lies yet refuse to look at links that will tell them the truth - yes, truth from our own government!
We're already worse off, or did you not read the list of EU benefits we've just thrown away? Wouldn't surprise me as you seem to only want to look at and believe the lies you've been told in the Sun, Mail, Telegraph or the social media etc!
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Two of the Leftwaffe out early today.
As I said, we won’t know for a few years.
Of course a good deal is better than a bad one.
Do you know for a fact that we won’t get a good deal or that other countries won’t want to deal with us (that’s the UK by the way SR).
I agree though NNK, the voters were deceived by lies by the Brexit people.
I would love to know how we can get a better deal with the EU than the one we had before we decided to leave. Even a supposed good deal, (whatever that turns out to be - if anything), can never be as good - it would be pointless for the EU to exist otherwise, they simply can't treat us as equal to the members of their club let alone better!
Have you looked at those links I posted earlier, from out own Government, telling business in the UK what they will have to do to trade with each individual nation in the EU? Have you considered the implications on UK business?
Oh, and we already trade with the rest of the world via trade deals struck with the EU. Do you, or anyone here, think that we as a small island can get better deals with the rest of the world than the ones we had as part of the EU? Have a look what New Zealand think....
https://www.politik.co.nz/2020/06/18/nz-ready-to-get-heavy-with-the-uk/
It isn't about being left, or right, or centre; it's about what's best for this country. Why would anyone in their right mind want to downgrade?
But I am glad you agree that those who voted Leave were deceived by the lies of the Leave Campaigns; sadly, we're now about to pay the price for that.
No NNK, I haven’t read the links that you posted.
Better off isn’t just about any deals we get is it.
Apparently we don’t have to pay £350m a week into the EU coffers so that would be a good start wouldn’t it.
But, as I said, no one can know for a fact that we won’t be better off.
I will put a note into my phone to see how we are in ten years and we can revisit this conversation.
Perhaps you should take the time to have a look at those links as they are nothing at all to do with us being better or worse off.
And we never EVER paid the EU £350m a week. NEVER! EVER! Why do people keep expounding the lies yet refuse to look at links that will tell them the truth - yes, truth from our own government!
We're already worse off, or did you not read the list of EU benefits we've just thrown away? Wouldn't surprise me as you seem to only want to look at and believe the lies you've been told in the Sun, Mail, Telegraph or the social media etc!
NNK, I don’t read any of those rags that you have listed and I don’t do twitter or instagram either.
I also know that we didn’t pay the EU £350m a week, you should have noticed that I wrote “apparently” before those words.
As for the links that get posted on here, on the political threads I very rarely open any of them up because over time I have come to realise that invariably they are just full of government bashing stuff and to be honest I got sick of reading them.
Far too predictable.
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If an argument is sound, the fact that its conclusions are critical of Govt doesn't make it any less sound.
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Two of the Leftwaffe out early today.
As I said, we won’t know for a few years.
Of course a good deal is better than a bad one.
Do you know for a fact that we won’t get a good deal or that other countries won’t want to deal with us (that’s the UK by the way SR).
I agree though NNK, the voters were deceived by lies by the Brexit people.
I would love to know how we can get a better deal with the EU than the one we had before we decided to leave. Even a supposed good deal, (whatever that turns out to be - if anything), can never be as good - it would be pointless for the EU to exist otherwise, they simply can't treat us as equal to the members of their club let alone better!
Have you looked at those links I posted earlier, from out own Government, telling business in the UK what they will have to do to trade with each individual nation in the EU? Have you considered the implications on UK business?
Oh, and we already trade with the rest of the world via trade deals struck with the EU. Do you, or anyone here, think that we as a small island can get better deals with the rest of the world than the ones we had as part of the EU? Have a look what New Zealand think....
https://www.politik.co.nz/2020/06/18/nz-ready-to-get-heavy-with-the-uk/
It isn't about being left, or right, or centre; it's about what's best for this country. Why would anyone in their right mind want to downgrade?
But I am glad you agree that those who voted Leave were deceived by the lies of the Leave Campaigns; sadly, we're now about to pay the price for that.
No NNK, I haven’t read the links that you posted.
Better off isn’t just about any deals we get is it.
Apparently we don’t have to pay £350m a week into the EU coffers so that would be a good start wouldn’t it.
But, as I said, no one can know for a fact that we won’t be better off.
I will put a note into my phone to see how we are in ten years and we can revisit this conversation.
Perhaps you should take the time to have a look at those links as they are nothing at all to do with us being better or worse off.
And we never EVER paid the EU £350m a week. NEVER! EVER! Why do people keep expounding the lies yet refuse to look at links that will tell them the truth - yes, truth from our own government!
We're already worse off, or did you not read the list of EU benefits we've just thrown away? Wouldn't surprise me as you seem to only want to look at and believe the lies you've been told in the Sun, Mail, Telegraph or the social media etc!
NNK, I don’t read any of those rags that you have listed and I don’t do twitter or instagram either.
I also know that we didn’t pay the EU £350m a week, you should have noticed that I wrote “apparently” before those words.
As for the links that get posted on here, on the political threads I very rarely open any of them up because over time I have come to realise that invariably they are just full of government bashing stuff and to be honest I got sick of reading them.
Far too predictable.
The links I posted and referred to hound are actual government papers, there's no government knocking in them, just facts; neither more nor less - have a look, you may be surprised?
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There's none as blind as them as wont see.
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Just a long list of whataboutary Kato
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Rather like all your predictions of EU doom and gloom, I'd say.
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Just a long list of whataboutary Kato
So selby, you don't understand how PMQ's works and now you demonstrate you don't know the difference between a list of facts and whataboutary. It must be really difficult being you.
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Careful Kato he may be fishing without a hook again you know how cunning he is :)
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Careful Kato he may be fishing without a hook again you know how cunning he is :)
I suspect he hasn't even got a fishing licence and wouldn't know which end of the rod to hold in the first place SR.
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It is easier with a net mate. You catch more,and can chuck the sprats back.
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It is easier with a net mate. You catch more,and can chuck the sprats back.
Really? But you actually said....
Kato, very funny, but just another pop at belittling people who don't agree with your opinion.
You don't learn, it is like water off a ducks back here mate, I just chuck the hook and don't even put on a worm.
I think it's time you stopped digging selby, I really do.
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Kato I know which end of the rod to hold. It is the one that doesn't have a bell on the end.
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Not good news that the US are mulling over tariffs on $3.1 billion of EU exports.
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Not good news that the US are mulling over tariffs on $3.1 billion of EU exports.
Not unexpected. Trump's just been made to look even more of a prick than he already is by a load of 13 year old K-Pop fans. He's got to lash out at someone.
It's alright. He'll be gone before the next spring comes around.
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Could be he will Billy, I am not bothered either way about Donald Trump and the president before him was no better, different but no better.
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With regard to the £350mill claims surfacing again this is a good time to remind people that Brexit (since 2016 up to the end of this year) - is calculated to have cost the UK taxpayer nearly as much as the entire total of all our budget contributions in our 47 membership of the EU.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1235498/brexit-costs-so-far-how-much-has-brexit-cost-eu-membership-divorce-bill
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-10/-170-billion-and-counting-the-cost-of-brexit-for-the-u-k
https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1275442494939860997
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Different in that he didn't lie every time he opened his mouth, didn't break the law and didn't have several of his closest aides cover for him by taking the fall and doing time?
Yeah, I never thought about it like that! They WERE a bit different weren't they?
The thing is Selby, I know you get excited about rocks chucked at the EU. What I'm saying is, you need to get it in context. It's nothing more or less than a Trump Tantrum.
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Billy, you only think you know what I think, really you have no idea.
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Kato I know which end of the rod to hold. It is the one that doesn't have a bell on the end.
Doesn't matter which end you pick up, Selby. The end you're holding is the one with the Bell on the End.
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Too late pies.
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With regard to the £350mill claims surfacing again this is a good time to remind people that Brexit (since 2016 up to the end of this year) - is calculated to have cost the UK taxpayer nearly as much as the entire total of all our budget contributions in our 47 membership of the EU.
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1235498/brexit-costs-so-far-how-much-has-brexit-cost-eu-membership-divorce-bill
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-01-10/-170-billion-and-counting-the-cost-of-brexit-for-the-u-k
https://twitter.com/guyverhofstadt/status/1275442494939860997
As bst suggested Wilts is hard to walk with your pants around your ankles
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https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-poll-most-british-people-want-to-rejoin-eu-2020-6?r=US&IR=T&utm_source=reddit.com (https://www.businessinsider.com/brexit-poll-most-british-people-want-to-rejoin-eu-2020-6?r=US&IR=T&utm_source=reddit.com)
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Selby said
Well it looks like it is kicking off over there in La La land, Varadkar coming into trouble with the greens who are themselves coming in for trouble with the farmers who need a Brexit agreement to protect their largest market.
Merkel is considering sidelining Barnier to push for an agreement, and no fiscal agreement with the frugal four and the German courts dead set on not continually bailing out their med friends.
Meanwhile Merkel said
start preparing for no deal. The integrity of the single market is more important than an agreement with the UK
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/26/angela-merkel-uk-must-live-with-consequences-of-weaker-ties-to-eu-brexit
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'“With Prime Minister Boris Johnson, the British government wants to define for itself what relationship it will have with us after the country leaves,” Merkel said. “It will then have to live with the consequences, of course, that is to say with a less closely interconnected economy.
“If Britain does not want to have rules on the environment and the labour market or social standards that compare with those of the EU, our relations will be less close. That will mean it does not want standards to go on developing along parallel lines.”'
It looks like Johnson speaks with a forked tongue he's telling the people he will maintain all the standards above (and more) and yet Merkel is saying the opposite, when push comes to shove who are you going to believe Merkel whom the article reminds us has been around for 15 years and is highly respected or Johnson .............. or selby for that matter.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/26/angela-merkel-uk-must-live-with-consequences-of-weaker-ties-to-eu-brexit
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I'd take Selby over Liar Johnson any day !
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I'd take Selby over Liar Johnson any day !
Well at least you might get a drink out of selby :)
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Once a Season - Southend away was the last lol - oh what a night !
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psst psst anyone want to buy a satellite :(
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Any time Wolfie.
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Ayup Wolfie, you've pulled!
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Glyn, he gives me sweeties.
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And so the incompetence continues....
https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/four-years-on-the-ignorance-and-the-idiocy/?fbclid=IwAR0Qh0yUcJjtzJ9bF-_D421uz1k35eBsBMo6Os54DGryc1W7TwOFyqJvVNI
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And look at all the money we've (NOT) saved....
(https://i.imgur.com/7gUjf50.jpg)
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And so the incompetence continues....
https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/four-years-on-the-ignorance-and-the-idiocy/?fbclid=IwAR0Qh0yUcJjtzJ9bF-_D421uz1k35eBsBMo6Os54DGryc1W7TwOFyqJvVNI
This is the bit that UK exporters need to be up to date with and complient with if they want to export to to EU?
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/placing-manufactured-goods-on-the-eu-internal-market-if-theres-no-deal
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And so the incompetence continues....
https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/four-years-on-the-ignorance-and-the-idiocy/?fbclid=IwAR0Qh0yUcJjtzJ9bF-_D421uz1k35eBsBMo6Os54DGryc1W7TwOFyqJvVNI
This is the bit that UK exporters need to be up to date with and complient with if they want to export to to EU?
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/placing-manufactured-goods-on-the-eu-internal-market-if-theres-no-deal
Isn't this the bureaucracy we're supposed to be getting rid of? :silly:
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Here's a thought if UK contributions to the EU were higher over the years the cost of Brexit wouldn't look so stupid now :silly:
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And so the incompetence continues....
https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/four-years-on-the-ignorance-and-the-idiocy/?fbclid=IwAR0Qh0yUcJjtzJ9bF-_D421uz1k35eBsBMo6Os54DGryc1W7TwOFyqJvVNI
This is the bit that UK exporters need to be up to date with and complient with if they want to export to to EU?
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/placing-manufactured-goods-on-the-eu-internal-market-if-theres-no-deal
Isn't this the bureaucracy we're supposed to be getting rid of? :silly:
... along with unelected bureaucrats as well such as Cummings and Baroness Nicky Fox (I am no longer going to be an MP - OK then we will appoint you Baroness and you can then be a part of The Cabinet)
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Wolf, do you mean Nicky Morgan?
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I've just had this awful vision of a cross between Liam Fox and Nicky Morgan.😳
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Any of you Brexiters fancy retiring to an EU country? Plain sailing after all according to this....
https://twitter.com/archer_rs/status/1277505330885386240
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Any of you Brexiters fancy retiring to an EU country? Plain sailing after all according to this....
https://twitter.com/archer_rs/status/1277505330885386240
There's a great sitcom in development there!
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Any of you Brexiters fancy retiring to an EU country? Plain sailing after all according to this....
https://twitter.com/archer_rs/status/1277505330885386240
Didn’t know what they were voting for, eh.?
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And now we're making it really simple to move goods between the UK and the EU....
https://twitter.com/Joe_Mayes/status/1277716723702120448
I wonder which one of their, (Cummings') mates, will get the juicy and expensive contract to cock this up?
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Absolutely insane.
Choosing to make it harder to trade with the biggest, richest free trade area in human history, right on our doorstep.
CHOOSING to do it. Because it will allow us to...err...
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Any of you Brexiters fancy retiring to an EU country? Plain sailing after all according to this....
https://twitter.com/archer_rs/status/1277505330885386240 (https://twitter.com/archer_rs/status/1277505330885386240)
There's a great sitcom in development there!
Bloody hell - bet they start campaigning for a Referendum on Friday morning
Im going to follow that fella as I want to see wgere that goes lol
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“British exporters will be the biggest losers from this,” said Naomi Smith, chief executive officer of Best for Britain, a pro-EU campaigning group.
Just saying
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And now we're making it really simple to move goods between the UK and the EU....
https://twitter.com/Joe_Mayes/status/1277716723702120448
I wonder which one of their, (Cummings') mates, will get the juicy and expensive contract to cock this up?
Jesus Christ, I knew all about the extra paperwork and obstacles that leaving the Single Market would impose on UK importers and exporters (and said so several times on here before the referendum, despite being told by one person in particular that I didn't know anything about it), but even I am absolutely gobsmacked that the British Government are going to slap extra bureaucracy on traffic to the EU that exports to non-EU countries doesn't have to comply with.
-
And now we're making it really simple to move goods between the UK and the EU....
https://twitter.com/Joe_Mayes/status/1277716723702120448
I wonder which one of their, (Cummings') mates, will get the juicy and expensive contract to cock this up?
Jesus Christ, I knew all about the extra paperwork and obstacles that leaving the Single Market would impose on UK importers and exporters (and said so several times on here before the referendum, despite being told by one person in particular that I didn't know anything about it), but even I am absolutely gobsmacked that the British Government are going to slap extra bureaucracy on traffic to the EU that exports to non-EU countries doesn't have to comply with.
Glyn at that point in time you didn't know and nobody knew, not me, not you, not anybody, and that was all that was pointed out, you said you knew what would happen. Whether you are proved right or wrong is irrelevant. and tbh I don't really care
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In fairness DR, given Glyn's professional background, I think he had a better idea than 99.9% of the population.
But then of course, back in 2016, we were told by the Leave side that there was no possibility that we'd leave the Single Market.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D0xGt3QmRSZY&ved=2ahUKEwjMoc_AyqrqAhXknVwKHWZLCkkQwqsBMAR6BAgKEAM&usg=AOvVaw0v2iTLsDSrd_kHuzccm72b
-
And now we're making it really simple to move goods between the UK and the EU....
https://twitter.com/Joe_Mayes/status/1277716723702120448
I wonder which one of their, (Cummings') mates, will get the juicy and expensive contract to cock this up?
Jesus Christ, I knew all about the extra paperwork and obstacles that leaving the Single Market would impose on UK importers and exporters (and said so several times on here before the referendum, despite being told by one person in particular that I didn't know anything about it), but even I am absolutely gobsmacked that the British Government are going to slap extra bureaucracy on traffic to the EU that exports to non-EU countries doesn't have to comply with.
Glyn at that point in time you didn't know and nobody knew, not me, not you, not anybody, and that was all that was pointed out, you said you knew what would happen. Whether you are proved right or wrong is irrelevant. and tbh I don't really care
I knew exactly what extra bureaucracy UK importers and exporters would have to face if we left the Single Market. And what extra bureaucracy an EU/UK FTA entails. It was TRUE then and is TRUE now. It's the Law, opinion doesn't come into it. So please, don't keep on with the 'nobody knows' b*llocks. Just because YOU didn't know doesn't mean nobody knows.
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What a god awful mess I find myself living amongst
I hope (sincerely) someone with the nous to do so has documented every twist and turn of how we got here - every promise - every lie - every plus and moreso every minus along the way so history will judge
Not solely the EU - but Covid. Cummings, Hancock Jenrick - and all the rest
HELL there is that much of it it gets so easily forgotten
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More than one journ will write a book Wolf, many will have all the notes and references catalogued ready to go.
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In fairness DR, given Glyn's professional background, I think he had a better idea than 99.9% of the population.
But then of course, back in 2016, we were told by the Leave side that there was no possibility that we'd leave the Single Market.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D0xGt3QmRSZY&ved=2ahUKEwjMoc_AyqrqAhXknVwKHWZLCkkQwqsBMAR6BAgKEAM&usg=AOvVaw0v2iTLsDSrd_kHuzccm72b
I'm not going to dispute he had a much better idea than most. However the fact remains he did not know for certain. Nobody knew for certain at that point yes a very well educated guess but not certain Whether Glyn thinks its bolox or not ;)
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In fairness DR, given Glyn's professional background, I think he had a better idea than 99.9% of the population.
But then of course, back in 2016, we were told by the Leave side that there was no possibility that we'd leave the Single Market.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D0xGt3QmRSZY&ved=2ahUKEwjMoc_AyqrqAhXknVwKHWZLCkkQwqsBMAR6BAgKEAM&usg=AOvVaw0v2iTLsDSrd_kHuzccm72b
I'm not going to dispute he had a much better idea than most. However the fact remains he did not know for certain. Nobody knew for certain at that point yes a very well educated guess but not certain Whether Glyn thinks its bolox or not ;)
Oh, so you knew that Brexit was going to overturn CEMA 1979 - UK legislation - did you?
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More than one journ will write a book Wolf, many will have all the notes and references catalogued ready to go.
Hope so - I am in complete dispair at what this Country I have called home has gone from and to lately
The frustrating thing is I saw some "luminary" or celebrity saying on Twitter that he (she) was appalled at what they were watching unfolding routinely and they wanted to shout "STOP , somebody do something PLEASE" but there was no way to stop what is being done
I feel pretty much the same way - I.m not saying I know better than anyone else - I clearly dont as I would not waste my time posting this crap here - and yes I only get the one vote - but good god this is unbearable to watch
Roll on 4 years 5 Months - lets hope a few people change their minds then after we have experienced personally how things have unfolded to that point
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Too many people have switched off for many reasons Wolf which has allowed criminally self intested tw+ts like johnson to control the media and take the reins and too many people have been too ready to accept all his dumb rhetoric without appearing to understand the consequences.
I don't know what the answer is as it appears a large cohort were/are happy to call themselves conservatives and hitch themselves to this bandwagon for the self interested and give the finger to the rest of society.
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Too many people have switched off for many reasons Wolf which has allowed criminally self intested tw+ts like johnson to control the media and take the reins and too many people have been too ready to accept all his dumb rhetoric without appearing to understand the consequences.
That's what they've relied on. Enough people just being bored of Brexit and just wanting to move on. That's why "Get Brexit Done" was a brilliant campaigning slogan. What it meant was, "Close your eyes and stick your fingers in your ears and don't worry your little heads about it any more. It's done the job of getting Cummings into No10 and now you can forget about it."
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In fairness DR, given Glyn's professional background, I think he had a better idea than 99.9% of the population.
But then of course, back in 2016, we were told by the Leave side that there was no possibility that we'd leave the Single Market.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3D0xGt3QmRSZY&ved=2ahUKEwjMoc_AyqrqAhXknVwKHWZLCkkQwqsBMAR6BAgKEAM&usg=AOvVaw0v2iTLsDSrd_kHuzccm72b
I'm not going to dispute he had a much better idea than most. However the fact remains he did not know for certain. Nobody knew for certain at that point yes a very well educated guess but not certain Whether Glyn thinks its bolox or not ;)
There were a lot of things known for certain prior to the vote. It's just that people either ignored them or believed the lies that were being perpetrated by the leave campaigns!
The ROI/NI border is another classic example!
I genuinely wonder how many Brexiters have finally realised they've been mugged?
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Course they've been mugged.
Brexit was only ever the vehicle to put Johnson in No10 as the monkey, and Cummings in No10 as the organ grinder.
Cummings was telling anyone who'd listen last year that his big plan was "Get Brexit done, then DARPA."
There was never a plan for what "getting Brexit done" meant. Never. Right from the start. It was just managed as something to break politics and open the door for the Johnson/Cummings team. The damage to the country is irrelevant in Cummings's view, so long as it lets him have his w**k fantasy of running a DARPA organisation. He's been hammering in about that for years in his blog.
Like I've been saying for years, he is a frighteningly dangerous obsessive. And you lot have given him control of the country.
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Well nice to see everyone is their normal happy persona this morning.
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More than one journ will write a book Wolf, many will have all the notes and references catalogued ready to go.
If Boris Johnson write about it then it will probably be in the Fiction aisle.😳
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Any of you Brexiters fancy retiring to an EU country? Plain sailing after all according to this....
https://twitter.com/archer_rs/status/1277505330885386240 (https://twitter.com/archer_rs/status/1277505330885386240)
There's a great sitcom in development there!
Bloody hell - bet they start campaigning for a Referendum on Friday morning
Im going to follow that fella as I want to see where that goes lol
The idiot son will be catching a plane tomorrow - I cant wait for the update.
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Just in case people missed it, midnight last night/this morning was the official cut-off date for the UK to ask the EU for an extension to discuss/implement the future trading and political arrangements now we have left the block.
So as it now stands the UK will have to accept whatever terms the EU offer - or see our trading arrangements for the countries that provide over 60% of the UK's trade default to much worse terms on 31st December 2020.
Does anyone know exactly when the German Car Industry are going to turn-up, just in case I have to go out like?
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I wonder if this 'promise' will materialise....
https://youtu.be/yIYq5xMW98I
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Para 4, this is what sales reps are taught and this is what people bought.
''We are pursuaded by reason but moved by emotion, several studies conclude that 90% of decisions we make are made on emotion''
https://westsidetoastmasters.com/resources/laws_persuasion/chap14.html
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You don't have many joyous days you lot do you.
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You don't have many joyous days you lot do you.
I blame people who voted Leave and then voted Tory.
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You don't have many joyous days you lot do you.
Go on selby cheer us all up.
Tell us all how much better we are going to be on 31st December because...
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Well, Wilts it is my birthday as well so two things to celebrate my 74th and I doubt that the country could be in a worse place than the day I came into it on the last day of 1946.
Whether the present generations are up to the standard and ability to get things done and up and running that was about then though I have my doubts, some have certainly given the ghost up already havn't you?
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Well, Wilts it is my birthday as well so two things to celebrate my 74th and I doubt that the country could be in a worse place than the day I came into it on the last day of 1946.
Whether the present generations are up to the standard and ability to get things done and up and running that was about then though I have my doubts, some have certainly given the ghost up already havn't you?
And you accuse others of being a misery!
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In 1946 the country was united though Selby. We are far from united now and probably won't be for years.
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Glyn, that generation did it, you lot have got to prove you can do it as well.
Idler there are some on here that are going to have to get on board then if they want to flourish, if they put as much effort into getting on with things as they do moaning about everything that doesn't suit the way they want things to be they might achieve their goal of a flourishing country. I won't hold my breath though.
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The country was on a high though after winning a war and seeing peace for the first time in years. We had industry that had been going flat out for some time and an empire wanting our products and were one of the world's leading and most respected countries.
I personally don't think that we are anywhere near having the politicians to steer us on a path to security and regaining much respect in the world of today.
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Glyn, that generation did it, you lot have got to prove you can do it as well.
Idler there are some on here that are going to have to get on board then if they want to flourish, if they put as much effort into getting on with things as they do moaning about everything that doesn't suit the way they want things to be they might achieve their goal of a flourishing country. I won't hold my breath though.
The generation of 1946 had just finished fighting a real enemy that tried to destroy this country.
The generation of Brexit have self-inflicted it, so don't tell ME I've got to clear up after them.
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Glyn, that generation did it, you lot have got to prove you can do it as well.
Idler there are some on here that are going to have to get on board then if they want to flourish, if they put as much effort into getting on with things as they do moaning about everything that doesn't suit the way they want things to be they might achieve their goal of a flourishing country. I won't hold my breath though.
We're just waiting for the Brexiters to tell us what exactly they want us to get on with, selby. They seem strangely quiet on that front, especially as they were supposed to know what they were voting for and hence what we should be doing to get it! No?
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Glyn, that generation did it, you lot have got to prove you can do it as well.
Idler there are some on here that are going to have to get on board then if they want to flourish, if they put as much effort into getting on with things as they do moaning about everything that doesn't suit the way they want things to be they might achieve their goal of a flourishing country. I won't hold my breath though.
We're just waiting for the Brexiters to tell us what exactly they want us to get on with, selby. They seem strangely quiet on that front, especially as they were supposed to know what they were voting for and hence what we should be doing to get it! No?
You missed out the bit where it was all going to be 'sunny uplands' and not the shit selby is now telling us that it's down to us to climb out of.
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There is nothing like getting your excuses in before the event is there?
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There is nothing like getting your excuses in before the event is there?
It's a refreshing change for a Brexiter to admit we're now in the shit.
PS. What 'event' are you talking about?
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People on nights in January and February checking paperwork for lorries at the border in the cold.
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People on nights in January and February checking paperwork for lorries at the border in the cold.
You mean all the bureaucracy that I told everyone was going to happen? Only to get told I didn't know what I was talking about, or that it was 'Project Fear'. And Brexiters still voted for? Your mess, you clean it up.
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People on nights in January and February checking paperwork for lorries at the border in the cold.
You mean all the bureaucracy that I told everyone was going to happen? Only to get told I didn't know what I was talking about, or that it was 'Project Fear'. And Brexiters still voted for? Your mess, you clean it up.
I never said you didn't know what you were talking about. I just said there was no way you could be absolutely 100% sure, your opinion based on your experience yes but you could not be absolutely sure ;) ;) ;)
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People on nights in January and February checking paperwork for lorries at the border in the cold.
You mean all the bureaucracy that I told everyone was going to happen? Only to get told I didn't know what I was talking about, or that it was 'Project Fear'. And Brexiters still voted for? Your mess, you clean it up.
I never said you didn't know what you were talking about. I just said there was no way you could be absolutely 100% sure, your opinion based on your experience yes but you could not be absolutely sure ;) ;) ;)
I wasn't talking about you. I wasn't the other day as it happens.
Mind you, selby acknowledges what's going to happen.
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People on nights in January and February checking paperwork for lorries at the border in the cold.
You mean all the bureaucracy that I told everyone was going to happen? Only to get told I didn't know what I was talking about, or that it was 'Project Fear'. And Brexiters still voted for? Your mess, you clean it up.
I never said you didn't know what you were talking about. I just said there was no way you could be absolutely 100% sure, your opinion based on your experience yes but you could not be absolutely sure ;) ;) ;)
I wasn't talking about you. I wasn't the other day as it happens.
Mind you, selby acknowledges what's going to happen.
Ok Glyn its just we had some pretty similar conversations on here I do sometimes get a bit shirty on here nowadays Ive had one hell of a lot gone off these last two or three years
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They need us more than we need them.
London is assessing whether the advantages of the European bloc’s bargaining power to strike deals with international drugs companies outweigh the broader political desire to sever ties with Brussels, UK officials said.
https://twitter.com/StewartWood/status/1279061518332690435
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Glyn, that generation did it, you lot have got to prove you can do it as well.
Idler there are some on here that are going to have to get on board then if they want to flourish, if they put as much effort into getting on with things as they do moaning about everything that doesn't suit the way they want things to be they might achieve their goal of a flourishing country. I won't hold my breath though.
All those young people you appear to dispise selby, is that who you mean?
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Squeaky bum time from the ERG....
https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/cummings-is-starting-to-make-the-erg-nervous/?fbclid=IwAR2SEmUUyGTpY0Hq9sVrAQXmfSVWbpqIJCfHNipsRqlnefCiIAvIkw4Rces
And they continue to peddle lies too - a free trade deal with the EU will lead to an increase in trade between us. Really? An increase? What will we be able to trade that we couldn't have done as members?
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Squeaky bum time from the ERG....
https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/cummings-is-starting-to-make-the-erg-nervous/?fbclid=IwAR2SEmUUyGTpY0Hq9sVrAQXmfSVWbpqIJCfHNipsRqlnefCiIAvIkw4Rces
And they continue to peddle lies too - a free trade deal with the EU will lead to an increase in trade between us. Really? An increase? What will we be able to trade that we couldn't have done as members?
Of course it won't increase trade. Any agreement after leaving the Single Market - no matter how good it is - will necessitate the cost of Customs Declarations and Customs Clearance both for importers and exporters on both sides of the Customs Border. And then if we do get an FTA, any UK exporter will have the extremely complex bureaucracy of having to hold the evidence of proof of origin of any goods they want their EU customer to buy at a reduced or zero rate of Customs Duty.
So that's extra bureaucracy, extra cost and extra delays for every movement of goods from UK to EU or vice versa. And that is whatever trade deal is worked out. No Deal is even worse. Just the ticket for increasing trade, eh?
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We took back control though lol
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I know it said that the letter wasn't a joke but ffs it sounds like someone is havin' a larf :)
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Christ, what an embarrassment that letter is. Apart from the execrable standard of English, which is bad enough, the lack of understanding of the logic of the negotiating position of the EU is so bad that my 13 year old facepalmed at it.
He said, "Dad. Is that MP saying that we want everything on our terms and we don't give anything in return? But that's stupid!"
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#dhotya
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Looks like there's now serious problems with the border situation in the Irish Sea....
https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/work-on-irish-sea-border-planning-halted-amid-calls-for-clarity/?fbclid=IwAR0u566AI-pDSDhjmk4n5rchHW184bG6mEpXSHvZl9lO_ELkTtDrCsVW9RE
When Leave Alliance are unhappy with the situation the you know something is seriously wrong....
https://twitter.com/LeaveHQ/status/1279871372265734147
Tweet number 8 says it all really....
8. One could very easily conclude that the Tories simply haven't the first idea what they're doing, and haven't even begun to understand the dynamics or the complexity of trade. I've been watching closely for any sign of intelligent life but the trade minister is Liz Truss.
How long to the cliff edge?
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I honestly don't know why people are getting hot under the collar , this tweet , that tweet , who says this who says that .
The UK will capitulate on the matter .
There was always going to an economic hit by leaving the EU but the pandemic has changed everything now .
The only thing Johnson and Cummings are working on is how to spin the capitulation and keep themselves in a job .
Let's look at the evidence .
How many u turns has Johnson done so far ? , even a young PL footballer is capable of getting him to back down never mind Barnier , covid - 19 and economic Armageddon .
Johnson believes in nowt other than to catch the fairest wind that enables his career to go north .
He's not even a true brexiter , he couldn't hang his cap on the same peg as George Galloway or Dennis Skinner on the subject of the EU to save his sorry life with any credibility .
Plastic brexiter and you can place the ERG in that box too .
Ask Rees Mogg if he had the choice between leaving the EU but it would cost his Party three successive GE's elections and I know what he'd choose .
Total shadow boxing going on here between the UK and Brussels .
Johnson will capitulate ....... all day long .
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You are Nigel Farage and I claim my free Kipper...
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UK government has submitted applications to the EU to create Border Control Posts at Northern Ireland's ports.
Taking back control if the EU will let us!
https://twitter.com/BBCNewsNI/status/1280448898797056000
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After promising to build a new car plant in the UK as Britain would thrive outside the EU, major Brexit backer (and Britains' richest man until he moved to a tax haven) now says he is looking to build his new 4x4 in France:
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jul/07/jim-ratcliffe-ineos-land-rover-rival-france-wales
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How much more will it take for Brexiters to finally admit they've been mugged?
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UK government has submitted applications to the EU to create Border Control Posts at Northern Ireland's ports.
Taking back control if the EU will let us!
https://twitter.com/BBCNewsNI/status/1280448898797056000
Are those the control posts that Johnson consistently denied we'd need, during the General Election campaign, despite anyone with more than a passing acquaintance with truth and logic telling him we would?
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UK government has submitted applications to the EU to create Border Control Posts at Northern Ireland's ports.
Taking back control if the EU will let us!
https://twitter.com/BBCNewsNI/status/1280448898797056000
Are those the control posts that Johnson consistently denied we'd need, during the General Election campaign, despite anyone with more than a passing acquaintance with truth and logic telling him we would?
Them's the ones.
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UK government has submitted applications to the EU to create Border Control Posts at Northern Ireland's ports.
Taking back control if the EU will let us!
https://twitter.com/BBCNewsNI/status/1280448898797056000
Are those the control posts that Johnson consistently denied we'd need, during the General Election campaign, despite anyone with more than a passing acquaintance with truth and logic telling him we would?
Them's the ones.
Thought so.
Hindsight, eh?
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UK government has submitted applications to the EU to create Border Control Posts at Northern Ireland's ports.
Taking back control if the EU will let us!
https://twitter.com/BBCNewsNI/status/1280448898797056000
Are those the control posts that Johnson consistently denied we'd need, during the General Election campaign, despite anyone with more than a passing acquaintance with truth and logic telling him we would?
Them's the ones.
Thought so.
Hindsight, eh?
I blame it on the care home workers. After all the clapping we did an' all...
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UK government has submitted applications to the EU to create Border Control Posts at Northern Ireland's ports.
Taking back control if the EU will let us!
https://twitter.com/BBCNewsNI/status/1280448898797056000
Are those the control posts that Johnson consistently denied we'd need, during the General Election campaign, despite anyone with more than a passing acquaintance with truth and logic telling him we would?
Them's the ones.
Thought so.
Hindsight, eh?
It's only hindsight for those who have hitherto had their eyes firmly shut to reality.
-
UK government has submitted applications to the EU to create Border Control Posts at Northern Ireland's ports.
Taking back control if the EU will let us!
https://twitter.com/BBCNewsNI/status/1280448898797056000
Are those the control posts that Johnson consistently denied we'd need, during the General Election campaign, despite anyone with more than a passing acquaintance with truth and logic telling him we would?
Them's the ones.
Thought so.
Hindsight, eh?
It's only hindsight for those who have hitherto had their eyes firmly shut to reality.
Glyn
I think the line is that you can't predict anything about the future because it's too hard.
And then you can't criticise anything about the past because anybody can get it right with hindsight. And anyway, what has happened has happened so no point worrying about it.
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UK government has submitted applications to the EU to create Border Control Posts at Northern Ireland's ports.
Taking back control if the EU will let us!
https://twitter.com/BBCNewsNI/status/1280448898797056000
Are those the control posts that Johnson consistently denied we'd need, during the General Election campaign, despite anyone with more than a passing acquaintance with truth and logic telling him we would?
Them's the ones.
Thought so.
Hindsight, eh?
It's only hindsight for those who have hitherto had their eyes firmly shut to reality.
Glyn
I think the line is that you can't predict anything about the future because it's too hard.
And then you can't criticise anything about the past because anybody can get it right with hindsight. And anyway, what has happened has happened so no point worrying about it.
Sorry Billy, I think I lost my blinkers down the back of the settee.
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How much more will it take for Brexiters to finally admit they've been mugged?
I suspect they wont CARE. We're OUT
All of us can sit back now while we see if "taking back control" works for us or not
If it does, great, they were right all along - if it doesnt then there is now "Covid-19* raging away without which it might have all gone so much better - who knows a lot will be thinking
It is so polarised as are so many issues theses days so I will stick to thinking my Vote for Remain was still the right way to vote and I have seen nothing since that encourages me to think it might be anywhere near "great"
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How much more will it take for Brexiters to finally admit they've been mugged?
I suspect they wont CARE. We're OUT
All of us can sit back now while we see if "taking back control" works for us or not
If it does, great, they were right all along - if it doesnt then there is now "Covid-19* raging away without which it might have all gone so much better - who knows a lot will be thinking
It is so polarised as are so many issues theses days so I will stick to thinking my Vote for Remain was still the right way to vote and I have seen nothing since that encourages me to think it might be anywhere near "great"
A very reasoned post wolfie.
More or less my thoughts on it too.
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I thought one of the major tenets of Brexit was to stop us being run by unelected bureaucrats!
"London: Boris Johnson's controversial adviser Dominic Cummings will tour some of Britain's most highly classified national security sites as part of his plan to radically shake up the military amid a major turf war in Westminster over how Britain will defend itself in the future.
According to internal correspondence obtained by The Sydney Morning Herald and The Age the Prime Minister's top adviser requested visits to five classified sites including facilities that specialise in defence intelligence."
https://www.smh.com.au/world/europe/cummings-to-drop-in-on-britain-s-most-secret-defence-installations-20200708-p559za.html
I’m assuming he’s got clearance from the Russians to do this.
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I think the russians will be having a bit of a laugh reading about this knowing they have johnson in their pocket already.
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Well the Irish are tipping an agreement in late October. their hope against hope.
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Well the Irish are tipping an agreement in late October. their hope against hope.
Link? Or are you making things up again?
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Well the Irish are tipping an agreement in late October. their hope against hope.
Merkel is saying there has been slim progress and telling the EU to prepare for No Deal.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-merkel/germanys-merkel-says-eu-must-prepare-for-no-deal-brexit-idUKKBN2491WX
Remember her. She is the person you said would be pushing for a deal last time:
Well it looks like it is kicking off over there in La La land, Varadkar coming into trouble with the greens who are themselves coming in for trouble with the farmers who need a Brexit agreement to protect their largest market.
Merkel is considering sidelining Barnier to push for an agreement, and no fiscal agreement with the frugal four and the German courts dead set on not continually bailing out their med friends.
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How much more will it take for Brexiters to finally admit they've been mugged?
I suspect they wont CARE. We're OUT
All of us can sit back now while we see if "taking back control" works for us or not
If it does, great, they were right all along - if it doesnt then there is now "Covid-19* raging away without which it might have all gone so much better - who knows a lot will be thinking
It is so polarised as are so many issues theses days so I will stick to thinking my Vote for Remain was still the right way to vote and I have seen nothing since that encourages me to think it might be anywhere near "great"
A very reasoned post wolfie.
More or less my thoughts on it too.
I think you are both wrong - a lot of them DO care. They care on how connected we will be to the EU after 31st December 2020.
How can Johnson both satisfy them and meet the needs of the economy and protect jobs?
He's going to let somebody down. Who I don't know. But I am fairly sure they won't be happy.
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Wilts, as I am sure you will be aware, anyone who has to make a decision which affects lots of people isn’t able to please all of them.
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We are agreed then hound.
I am sure we also agree that people who take unpopular decisions tend to become unpopular with the people who don't like that decision.
And that history shows us there is always someone willing to take advantage of that.
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Reported 5 hours ago Kato Merkel is reported in a major speech that she will work to the end of the year to deliver a FREE TRADE AGREEMENT.
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Reported 5 hours ago Kato Merkel is reported in a major speech that she will work to the end of the year to deliver a FREE TRADE AGREEMENT.
in which she also said there had been little progress so far and to prepare for No Deal.
Still Boris said he would get a deal so what's the problem - by the end of this month if my memory serves me correctly.
Well the Irish are tipping an agreement in late October. their hope against hope.
Merkel is saying there has been slim progress and telling the EU to prepare for No Deal.
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-merkel/germanys-merkel-says-eu-must-prepare-for-no-deal-brexit-idUKKBN2491WX
Remember her. She is the person you said would be pushing for a deal last time:
Well it looks like it is kicking off over there in La La land, Varadkar coming into trouble with the greens who are themselves coming in for trouble with the farmers who need a Brexit agreement to protect their largest market.
Merkel is considering sidelining Barnier to push for an agreement, and no fiscal agreement with the frugal four and the German courts dead set on not continually bailing out their med friends.
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Wilts, I would say that preparing for a no deal is proactive in the EU's case, as that is now the threat that they face, and have been told so by our Prime Minister.
Up to a fortnight ago Barnier himself said that the EU was open to an extension to the negotiation period, I don't think he thought his statement would land on stony ground like it did.
The date has now passed for that to happen so the only things on offer are a deal or no deal, and his reputation as a negotiator is on the line now, he will be a hero with a deal accepted by both parties or a complete failure.
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Wilts, I would say that preparing for a no deal is proactive in the EU's case, as that is now the threat that they face, and have been told so by our Prime Minister.
Up to a fortnight ago Barnier himself said that the EU was open to an extension to the negotiation period, I don't think he thought his statement would land on stony ground like it did.
The date has now passed for that to happen so the only things on offer are a deal or no deal, and his reputation as a negotiator is on the line now, he will be a hero with a deal accepted by both parties or a complete failure.
The threat THEY face?
I've just spat my coffee out on that one Selby.
The threat they face is that we are about to pull the trigger on that gun that we shoved in our mouth 4 years back, and they are going to get covered in blood and bits of bone.
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That was going to happen the day after the vote Billy, so it could be the the second time you experts could be wrong, or fifth if you count elections and referendums.
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Yes agreed selby.
Johnson has said he will get a deal so there is nothing to worry about.
Although he did say it was oven ready back in December so why they need so many rounds of talks to turn the oven on, I have no idea...
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Liz Truss warns Johnson over new border plans.
(checks date on calendar to make sure it isn't April 1st)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/08/liz-truss-warns-boris-johnson-over-brexit-border-plans
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That was going to happen the day after the vote Billy, so it could be the the second time you experts could be wrong, or fifth if you count elections and referendums.
If I had a scooby what you were on about, I'd reply.
Are you suggesting that we didn't get a huge economic hit (as predicted) immediately after the 2016 vote?
Only, our GDP growth rate fell by about 1.5% from 2016-2018, while that of the rest of the EU went up by about 2%. Overall, because of our woeful economic performance since 2016, our wealth has fallen by about £200bn in the past 4 years compared to what it would have been if we'd matched the performance of Europe.
That's a hell of a lot of £350m/week (sic) savings already pissed away.
What was the point you were making?
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Liz Truss warns Johnson over new border plans.
(checks date on calendar to make sure it isn't April 1st)
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/08/liz-truss-warns-boris-johnson-over-brexit-border-plans
Gove unveiled the new border Brexit regime last month for traders, announcing that customs and health checks required for goods imported from the EU would not be imposed immediately and instead be phased in over six months.
But Truss warns the “staged approach” would “be vulnerable” to legal challenge by the World Trade Organization which could object to goods coming in from the EU being treated differently to goods coming in from elsewhere which are already subject to tariffs and quotas.
Christ, it's like being in a Kafka-themed shit sitcom.
Some of us were pointing out precisely this issue 2 years ago. Suddenly this shit shower discover it, with 5 months left until "Jump Off the f**king Cliff Day".
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Wilts, I would say that preparing for a no deal is proactive in the EU's case, as that is now the threat that they face, and have been told so by our Prime Minister.
Up to a fortnight ago Barnier himself said that the EU was open to an extension to the negotiation period, I don't think he thought his statement would land on stony ground like it did.
The date has now passed for that to happen so the only things on offer are a deal or no deal, and his reputation as a negotiator is on the line now, he will be a hero with a deal accepted by both parties or a complete failure.
Actually selby....
Brussels has warned UK nationals to prepare for “thorough checks” at EU borders and the loss of rights such as free movement for pets and automatic recognition of driving licences, in a stark warning of Brexit’s ramifications.
On the same day that Michel Barnier, the EU’s Brexit negotiator, said “significant divergences” remained in Brussels’ future-relationship talks with Britain, the European Commission on Thursday issued a policy paper warning of “far reaching and automatic changes” regardless of the outcome of the negotiations.
The paper, published to help companies and citizens prepare for the end of Britain’s transition period on December 31, reflects Mr Barnier’s repeated warnings that the UK cannot “cherry pick” the benefits of the single market in a future trade deal.
Brussels also underlined that it would not mirror the UK’s intended policy of showing leniency when it comes to customs formalities in the months after the transition ends, telling businesses to prepare for a full suite of checks and “inevitable disruptions”.
“There is no room for complacency or postponing readiness and adaptation measures in anticipation that an agreement would ensure continuity,” the paper says. “If not yet done, public administrations, businesses and citizens in the Union must urgently take all the necessary readiness measures.”
Oh, and unlike you I provide the source....
https://www.ft.com/content/a14c0379-27bc-4734-a770-fc52452b19ff
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The Single Market is All Or Nothing. It always has been, from it's creation 28 years ago to now. It is non-negotiable and that has been known and told to everybody by the EU before the referendum, during the referendum and since the referendum. Selby and his like can stamp their little feet and make their face go gammon-purple in a fit of pique as much as they want to, it ain't going to alter that single immutable fact one jot.
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The Single Market is All Or Nothing. It always has been, from it's creation 28 years ago to now. It is non-negotiable and that has been known and told to everybody by the EU before the referendum, during the referendum and since the referendum. Selby and his like can stamp their little feet and make their face go gammon-purple in a fit of pique as much as they want to, it ain't going to alter that single immutable fact one jot.
Bang on.
That's the bit that Leave supporters have never got.
In negotiations, you have to understand what are the non-negotiable red lines of the other side. In this case, it's been perfectly clear from the start that the EU prioritises the coherence and sustainability of the Single Market over any trade issues with the UK. They simply will not give us a deal that allows us to have the benefits of the SM without the responsibilities. Because if they do, why should every other country in the SM abide by the responsibilities?
Understand that, and all the nonsense about VW marching into Merkel's office and ordering her to give the UK a preferential deal is clearly piss and wind.
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Selby and his like, and gammon purple, you knob, who the hell do you racial sanctimonious self centred toss pot think you are, supporting a club that have openly said they want to punish your country by treating them different to other countries because of their geographical position on Earth and wanting to leave the club.
Every thing about their stance is racial against the UK, something most of you are against when it comes to the treatment of coloured people rightly so. But defend an institution that is quite willing to treat Basques in Spain, UK citizens, differently, turn a blind eye to the treatment of transgender communities in their Eastern States, whose armed forces stood back and let thousands of Muslims be murdered in front of them in Serbia and only took action years later, Greece putting immigrants in rafts and towing them into open waters.
And you preach standards and laws, open your eyes it is you who are racial and ageist against your own people for having a different opinion to your self which has gobbled up the propaganda a ponsi club have pedaled for fifty years.
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IT's bang on alright, it shows just how frightened they are of open competition, how protectionist, they are and how they are frightened of losing that control over us.
And repeat, how racial they are when it suits their agenda. It is the biggest ponsi scheme ever put into operation.
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That is where you are wrong Billy, after four years the UK government have got it, and it is the EU negotiators who are not getting the new B******S to that reply.
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Selby and his like, and gammon purple, you knob, who the hell do you racial sanctimonious self centred toss pot think you are, supporting a club that have openly said they want to punish your country by treating them different to other countries because of their geographical position on Earth and wanting to leave the club.
Every thing about their stance is racial against the UK, something most of you are against when it comes to the treatment of coloured people rightly so. But defend an institution that is quite willing to treat Basques in Spain, UK citizens, differently, turn a blind eye to the treatment of transgender communities in their Eastern States, whose armed forces stood back and let thousands of Muslims be murdered in front of them in Serbia and only took action years later, Greece putting immigrants in rafts and towing them into open waters.
And you preach standards and laws, open your eyes it is you who are racial and ageist against your own people for having a different opinion to your self which has gobbled up the propaganda a ponsi club have pedaled for fifty years.
I think I'm the person who's read your posts and knows exactly what you are from them. That's what.
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IT's bang on alright, it shows just how frightened they are of open competition, how protectionist, they are and how they are frightened of losing that control over us.
And repeat, how racial they are when it suits their agenda. It is the biggest ponsi scheme ever put into operation.
Frightened of open competition??? Jesus Christ, what the bloody hell do you think the Single Market is BUT open competition!!! And it's YOU that's wanting out of it, not them chucking us out.
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Glyn, I am surprised you are capable of thinking so deeply. You don't strike me as that sort.
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Glyn, I am surprised you are capable of thinking so deeply. You don't strike me as that sort.
I'd be amazed if anything struck you.
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Wear it like a medal buddy.
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Yeah, I like to keep my twenty years as an International Trade specialist with Customs well hidden just to keep you in the dark so you can carry on creating fatuous fantasies about the EU to entertain us all with.
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Jeeez selby, what a melt down! I think you need to take a rest mate.
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Can you walk on water as well? Or did you develop the holier than thou attitude while you were there.
Kato. the test match is boring, have cashed in for the day so thought I would talk to a few friends.
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Can you walk on water as well? Or did you develop the holier than thou attitude while you were there.
Nah, I copied it from the way you post about how you know about the EU so much better than everybody else. If you're going to steal, steal from the best.
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I am glad you think so highly of yourself, I suppose somebody has to. I bet you wash the dishes for your lass the best as well.
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Can you walk on water as well? Or did you develop the holier than thou attitude while you were there.
Kato. the test match is boring, have cashed in for the day so thought I would talk to a few friends.
No, I can't walk on water selby. But I do have a video of you doing back flips though.... :boxing:
(https://i.imgur.com/0QSxj5j.gif)
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Hahahahaha.
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Well I will give you that one, but isn't he a young un likely to have voted to remain dumpling.
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Well I will give you that one, but isn't he a young un likely to have voted to remain dumpling.
:thumbsup: But sadly, the young un's who would have voted remain, (and they're the ones who's future will be badly affected because of it), were denied the vote by those with nothing at all to gain who voted leave!
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That is why I voted remain Kato, knowing that we would fudge it if the result was leave.
The difference is I have accepted I lost and have not spent four years moaning and bitching about it, and have accepted the result of a democratic vote, and I might add the house of commons voting to verify it, and the results of the following two general elections with Brexit the main bone of contention, nor have I insulted others until insulted myself first.
Nor do the insults bother me one iota, although I will respond, and it helps to know it obviously gets under their skin doing so. It's quite funny really.
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The vast majority who voted remain accept the result. The challenge is in implementing it in the best interests of the country, something which the government isn’t doing particularly well, is it.?
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The vast majority who voted remain accept the result. The challenge is in implementing it in the best interests of the country, something which the government isn’t doing particularly well, is it.?
This. In spades.
Back in 2018, a poll found that nearly 80% of the country, including the majority of Remain voters, would have been prepared to accept a Norway-type deal. The sort of deal that was pushed by the Leave side in 2016 as something to aspire to.
What we are actually careering into is something far, far more of a break with the EU than was ever discussed in 2016.
And people like Selby say that folk who aren't happy with this are some sort of disgrace to democracy!
Talk about being through the looking glass.
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Barnier responds to Mark Francois letter about the EU's unreasonable demands:
...if they are so unreasonable why did Johnson sign up to them and why you vote for them when you passed the Withdrawal Agreement...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-michel-barnier-mark-francois-eu-trade-demands-a9611921.html
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That letter from Barnier is one of the most brutal put downs I have ever read.
It screams out from every paragraph, "You are either utterly unprincipled or as thick as a bucket of monkey spunk."
There is a beautifully subtle, elegant, unspoken slap in it too.
Barnier, a man whose first language is French, was sent a letter by Francois written in English (appalling grammar, but there you go...). Barnier would have been perfectly within his rights to reply in French. But he's a bigger person than that. Instead, he did Francois the honour of replying in English. AMERICAN English. The unspoken put down there is quite masterful.
Cue the usual suspects ignoring the substantive points of this post and screaming the "whose side are you on?" mantra.
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That is why I voted remain Kato, knowing that we would fudge it if the result was leave.
The difference is I have accepted I lost and have not spent four years moaning and bitching about it, and have accepted the result of a democratic vote, and I might add the house of commons voting to verify it, and the results of the following two general elections with Brexit the main bone of contention, nor have I insulted others until insulted myself first.
Nor do the insults bother me one iota, although I will respond, and it helps to know it obviously gets under their skin doing so. It's quite funny really.
It's one thing to accept the result - we all have had to do that as we can't change it. It's something else to look to the delivery of what was promised and it's right to complain when what was promised is far from being delivered. I'm still waiting for what I asked for from leavers very early in this process - just one way in which we, as a country, will be better off outside the EU than within. To date, not one leaver has come forward with a single way in which we will be better off. You may find that acceptable, (part of accepting that we lost?), I don't - to me it seems that the 'winners' have lost, but unfortunately they are taking us down with themselves!
As to insults. I hope that you don't see my meme's as insults, rather they are meant to poke fun and lighten the mood in a time which is a serious issue for us all. We are all losers here, the winners are those, (like Mogg), with assets abroad who will stand to gain at the expense of the ordinary man in the street. Though I was being serious when I said you should take a rest - you have to admit your outburst was quite something of a meltdown, and that isn't good for you.
Stay safe mate.
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Well I will give you that one, but isn't he a young un likely to have voted to remain dumpling.
No I'll tell you who that bloke in the video is Selby , that's me 18 months ago after getting made redundant going to Wombwell Library to sign up for some god forbidden agency and the three minimum wage jobs that they were kindly offering on the bull shyte temp to perm gig they like to dangle .
12 of us turn up of which it becomes apparent that apart from myself and another kid 10 are eastern European .
I fill in the forms and have the interview and despite the fact I've done practically to same job for 25 years and can offer you references to back that up the interview is about as far as I get .
Don't even get me started on this shyte and on this particular EU point because Tony Blair can go feck himself along with the rest of the EU cheap labour people traffickers that they are in Brussels .
There's little point people in well furnished offices looking through the window on this fine , green and pleasant land and preaching to me about reality or this and that until you've walked in those shoes .
And it's hardly the first time either for me personally .
I couldn't actually give a shyte how much poverty there is in Romania because it's enough to be going on with how much there is around these parts which includes my own daughter if we didn't help them out .
If it bothers you that much and puts you out bugga off over the channel then , nobody's stopping you .
Rant over .
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If it bothers you that much and puts you out bugga off over the channel then , nobody's stopping you .
Errr, hate to break it to you but thats exactly what you voted to stop.
From 31st January this year, neither you nor I or anyone with a British passport has the freedom to go and live and work 'across the channel'.
Anyone who voted for Brexit voted to abolish freedom of movement for BRITISH people - whether they understood that or not.
You won. Get over it.
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Here you go Tyke, this is what you voted for - irrespective of the results of any negotiations....
https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/eu-launches-its-own-shock-and-awe-campaign-early/?fbclid=IwAR1l8266ECUKNQosho_4J3Byk-Bx8uMBF_wn-WPihSdIhE7Sx4O2RvdhzFM
Now in what way is any of that helping your daughter?
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Well I will give you that one, but isn't he a young un likely to have voted to remain dumpling.
No I'll tell you who that bloke in the video is Selby , that's me 18 months ago after getting made redundant going to Wombwell Library to sign up for some god forbidden agency and the three minimum wage jobs that they were kindly offering on the bull shyte temp to perm gig they like to dangle .
12 of us turn up of which it becomes apparent that apart from myself and another kid 10 are eastern European .
I fill in the forms and have the interview and despite the fact I've done practically to same job for 25 years and can offer you references to back that up the interview is about as far as I get .
Don't even get me started on this shyte and on this particular EU point because Tony Blair can go feck himself along with the rest of the EU cheap labour people traffickers that they are in Brussels .
There's little point people in well furnished offices looking through the window on this fine , green and pleasant land and preaching to me about reality or this and that until you've walked in those shoes .
And it's hardly the first time either for me personally .
I couldn't actually give a shyte how much poverty there is in Romania because it's enough to be going on with how much there is around these parts which includes my own daughter if we didn't help them out .
If it bothers you that much and puts you out bugga off over the channel then , nobody's stopping you .
Rant over .
Why blame Tony Blair? Freedom Of Movement happened five years before he became PM.
Do you live in Wombwell? I lived there for fifteen years myself.
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Here you go Tyke, this is what you voted for - irrespective of the results of any negotiations....
https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/eu-launches-its-own-shock-and-awe-campaign-early/?fbclid=IwAR1l8266ECUKNQosho_4J3Byk-Bx8uMBF_wn-WPihSdIhE7Sx4O2RvdhzFM
Now in what way is any of that helping your daughter?
Customs formalities on goods
Customs rules required under EU law will apply to all goods entering the customs territory of the EU from the United Kingdom, or leaving that customs territory to the United Kingdom. Even if an ambitious free trade area is established with the EU, providing for zero tariffs and zero quotas on goods with customs and regulatory cooperation, all the regulatory non-tariff barriers, usually far more costly in extra paperwork and delays than any tariff, will still apply.
Rules of origin
Again, if we agree a trade deal with zero tariffs, goods traded will have to be shown (with evidence if necessary) to have a minimum percentage of UK content in order for them to be entitled to preferential zero-tariff-zero-quota treatment. It’s worth bearing in mind that most cars manufactured in the UK do not meet the minimum percentage set out in the EU- Korean FTA, for example, which is 55 per cent.
Exactly what I've been saying for the past five years. But then, how could I possibly know what would happen, eh?
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Here you go Tyke, this is what you voted for - irrespective of the results of any negotiations....
https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/eu-launches-its-own-shock-and-awe-campaign-early/?fbclid=IwAR1l8266ECUKNQosho_4J3Byk-Bx8uMBF_wn-WPihSdIhE7Sx4O2RvdhzFM
Now in what way is any of that helping your daughter?
Customs formalities on goods
Customs rules required under EU law will apply to all goods entering the customs territory of the EU from the United Kingdom, or leaving that customs territory to the United Kingdom. Even if an ambitious free trade area is established with the EU, providing for zero tariffs and zero quotas on goods with customs and regulatory cooperation, all the regulatory non-tariff barriers, usually far more costly in extra paperwork and delays than any tariff, will still apply.
Rules of origin
Again, if we agree a trade deal with zero tariffs, goods traded will have to be shown (with evidence if necessary) to have a minimum percentage of UK content in order for them to be entitled to preferential zero-tariff-zero-quota treatment. It’s worth bearing in mind that most cars manufactured in the UK do not meet the minimum percentage set out in the EU- Korean FTA, for example, which is 55 per cent.
Exactly what I've been saying for the past five years. But then, how could I possibly know what would happen, eh?
I think a fair few of us knew Glyn, it's just that others would rather believe the lies they read in the Daily Mail, Express etc!
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While you believe the lies in the Guardian
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There we go. My side lies, I know it and I don't care. Therefore your side must also be lying and you must know it and not care.
Doesn't matter that you have proof that my side is lying and I have none that yours is. I'll just wrap myself up in this safe space where I don't have to address stuff that challenges me.
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your sounding like your hero the boy Jones now Billy.
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While you believe the lies in the Guardian
Who do you mean? I don't read the Guardian, never have.
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I bet they didn't even sell it in Wombwell Glyn, The Morning Star perhaps?
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I bet they didn't even sell it in Wombwell Glyn, The Morning Star perhaps?
Why would it matter if they didn't sell it in Wombwell?
And no, never read the Morning Star either, it's about as accurate as you are.
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Go on let out the secret, it's the Mail isn't it.
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Go on let out the secret, it's the Mail isn't it.
You tell me, you want us to think you know everything. It's very holier than thou.
Oh, and still wanting to know what you think Wombwell has to do with anything.
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Anyone remember the Leave side in 2016 saying, "Vote Leave on the clear understanding it will lead to a No Deal and job losses"?
https://mobile.twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1281879602995048451
I know it's hard to admit when you've been duped, but surely now?
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Courtesy of Jon Danzig.
Brexit is based on blatant mistruths and lies. You may not believe this now, but we will all believe it next year, when Brexit finally arrives, cold, clammy and callous, naked and exposed.
Every reason given to leave was a stinking falsification. When, one day, there is a public inquiry into how our country was conned, there will be gasps into how conniving, cunning politicians managed to get away with it.
Lies, lies and more lies. That’s how Leave won.
In summary:
▪ MORE SOVEREIGNTY? Nonsense. We’ll get less. In the EU, we gained a share of sovereignty of our continent. Outside the EU, we’ll still live on a planet and have to obey thousands of international laws and treaties.
We share sovereignty with NATO, for example. Is that a reason to leave it?
▪ FEWER MIGRANTS? Really? Just think about it. Most EU migrants in Britain have been in gainful employment, doing jobs that we simply don’t have enough Britons to do, and making a massive NET contribution to our Treasury and economy.
Migrants come here for jobs – and if there are no jobs, they mostly don’t come, or don’t stay.
▪ MORE HOUSES, SCHOOLS AND HOSPITALS? Think again. Britain has a chronic shortage of skilled workers. Without EU migrants, we’ll have fewer builders, teachers, doctors and nurses.
Migrants are not the cause of our problems. Blaming them just excuses successive UK governments from investing sufficiently in our country.
▪ GET OUR COUNTRY BACK? We never lost it. If being in the EU means losing your country, why aren’t the 27 other EU member states planning to leave?
(Really, none of them are: support for the EU is the highest it’s been in 35 years).
▪ OUR OWN LAWS? The vast majority of laws in the UK are our laws and passed by our Parliament in Westminster, otherwise it would have nothing to do.
But in the EU, we benefit from laws and regulations for our continent that no single country alone could ever achieve.
Could our UK government have got mobile phone companies to scrap exorbitant roaming charges across the entire EU? To take Google to task for “abusive practices”? To ensure generous compensation for delayed flights across our continent? Of course not.
It took the might of 28 EU countries working together to achieve that, and so much more.
▪ THE EU IS RUN BY FACELESS BUREAUCRATS? Another lie. The EU is a democracy, run and ruled by its members, the 27 countries of the EU, along with its democratically elected European Parliament.
The European Commission is the servant of the EU, not its master, and the European Parliament has the power to choose, and dismiss, the entire Commission.
THE CASE FOR BRETURN
Before Brexit, no member state had ever left the EU. And no other member state is planning to leave now.
That’s hardly surprising. All the reasons to be an EU member are based on true, tangible and tested benefits over many decades.
In summary:
▪ PROFITABLE: EU membership is profitable – in real terms it cost Britain nothing to belong to the EU. On the contrary, we got back many times the cost of the annual membership fee. Being in the EU made us better off.
The CBI has calculated that EU membership was worth around £3,000 a year to every British family — a return of nearly £10 for each £1 we paid in.
[Source: CBI Report: Our Global Future, page 11:]
▪ PEACE: It’s the structure of the EU that has helped to ensure that no shots have ever been fired between member states. That’s an enormous achievement for a continent that was previously used to violence, wars and subjugation as the way to ‘settle’ issues.
In 2012, by a unanimous decision of the Norwegian Nobel Committee, the EU won the Nobel Peace Prize for advancing the causes of peace, democracy and human rights in Europe for over 60 years.
▪ FREEDOMS: The EU gives members freedom across much of our continent.
EU citizens enjoy the right to live, work, study or retire in any EU and EEA country – including access to state healthcare and education when working in those countries. That’s a precious right, that took decades to achieve.
The EU also gives members the right to free AND frictionless trade between member states, which has helped to maintain Europe as the planet’s richest continent.
The loss of these freedoms will be increasingly devastating for Britain and Britons.
Almost half of ALL our exports, and just over half of ALL our imports, go to and come from the EU. Nowhere else in the world comes even close.
The EU has an iron tariff wall against non-members. Outside of the EU, we are on the wrong side of that wall.
Even non-European countries that have negotiated ‘free trade’ agreements with the EU don’t enjoy full free trade access to Europe’s internal market, as Britain did as an EU member.
▪ DEMOCRACY: EU members have a democratic say, votes and vetoes on the running and future direction of our continent.
Outside the EU, Britain can only look on as those decisions are made without us – even though those decisions will affect us just as much, whether we’re in the EU or not.
Leaving means losing sovereignty, not gaining it.
▪ POWER: The EU is the world’s largest and most successful trading bloc, and the world’s biggest exporter and importer of manufactured goods and services.
The EU is one of the world’s top three economies, alongside the USA and China.
The Euro, in record time, has become the world’s most traded and trusted currency, alongside the US dollar.
All that gives the EU huge power, reach and muscle – enabling it to negotiate the best free trade agreements with other countries on behalf of its members.
Outside the EU, Britain is unlikely to get trade deals as good as, let alone better than, the free trade agreements we had as an EU member covering over 70 countries.
In any event, it will take years, maybe decades to find out.
▪ PROTECTION: EU laws protecting the rights of workers, consumers and travellers across our continent are probably among the most important EU membership benefits.
For example, 4-weeks paid holiday a year; the 48-hour working week; anti-discrimination law; guaranteed rights for agency workers; guaranteed worker consultation – all of these protections largely exist because of the EU.
No single national government can assure safety and protection across our continent. It needs the reach of a pan-European intergovernmental organisation to achieve that (albeit with the democratic consensus of member states).
Britain enjoys cleaner beaches as a direct result of EU directives on protecting the environment. Before those directives, successive British governments were not interested in cleaning up our beaches.
In addition, the EU is leading the world in tackling climate change – something that individual countries alone simply can’t undertake.
The government’s post-Brexit plan is to take away the rights of British citizens to sue them over issues such as workers’ rights, environmental policy and business regulation. This right to sue our government on these issues was something we only enjoyed under EU law.
There will be many other rights lost as a direct result of Brexit.
▪ STRENGTH: In a world dominated by the USA, China and Russia, Britain is dwarfed on its own. Being part of the EU gives us a bigger say and more strength on the global stage than as a small country out-at-sea and going-it-alone.
We could instead become closer to the USA – but is that what we really want?
I know you voted Remain selby, but the above should make you, (and others), think about what you're now supporting.
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And if the above doesn't make you stop and think then....
(https://i.imgur.com/fpAkUFV.jpg)
It's not about you, it's about our future generations.
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I'll be OK though because despite the truth of what the UK will be despite the hardships the job losses the poverty and that the rich will live in enclaves where the hoi polloi will only go to clean, cook and tend the garden because I'm going to live in ................................
Selbyland where everyone is treated equally, where fruit and veg grows all year round and picks itself where if you need a job there is one and the world beats a path to our door and generously gives us more we would ever need and the NHS is filled with happy smiling faces in lovely brand new buildings and there are no queues.
Selbyland don't forget to register :)
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I think a fair few of us knew Glyn, it's just that others would rather believe the lies they read in the Daily Mail, Express etc!
The latest one being the front of today's Sunday Express, where they're spouting that we're 'taking back control of our borders' by beefing up border posts, and that by doing so it's the Government threatening the EU with No Deal. What complete bullshit. We have to set up proper border controls anyway, whether we get a Deal or not because every movement of goods between the UK and the EU is suddenly on Jan 1st going to have to have a Customs Declaration and undergo Clearance procedures, in both directions. And yet there are those who swallow this kind of crap without a squeak and regurgitate it in these forums - and expect others to take them seriously.
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I think a fair few of us knew Glyn, it's just that others would rather believe the lies they read in the Daily Mail, Express etc!
The latest one being the front of today's Sunday Express, where they're spouting that we're 'taking back control of our borders' by beefing up border posts, and that by doing so it's the Government threatening the RU with No Deal. What complete bullshit. We have to set up proper border controls anyway, whether we get a Deal or not because every movement of goods between the UK and the EU is suddenly on Jan 1st going to have to have a Customs Declaration and undergo Clearance procedures, in both directions. And yet there are those who swallow this kind of crap without a squeak and regurgitate it in these forums - and expect others to take them seriously.
Yep, and according to the BBC this morning our border control systems won't be ready until July 2021 - The first week of January 2021 is going to be very interesting indeed.
Meanwhile, what's already happening in Selbyland....
https://bylinetimes.com/2020/07/07/a-very-british-coup-former-royal-navy-trident-submarine-commander-assesses/?mc_cid=705c2a256f&mc_eid=7c350f1cab&fbclid=IwAR1rhXNdGW6ejLnPSB5owgCpcI1tyPHEBUc3x6Z4p1EO00YqKmSWPKfd3yA
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Who the hell knows what went on or what is going on Kato? One thing is for sure these guys are pulling everyines plonka.
''Revealed: Dominic Cummings firm paid Vote Leave's AI firm £260,000
Boris Johnson’s chief adviser declines to explain reason for payments to Faculty''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/12/revealed-dominic-cummings-firm-paid-vote-leaves-ai-firm-260000
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Who the hell knows what went on or what is going on Kato? One thing is for sure these guys are pulling everyines plonka.
''Revealed: Dominic Cummings firm paid Vote Leave's AI firm £260,000
Boris Johnson’s chief adviser declines to explain reason for payments to Faculty''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/12/revealed-dominic-cummings-firm-paid-vote-leaves-ai-firm-260000
At any other time there'd be resignations over things like this. But with this government, and Cummings at the wheel, no chance - they just don't care about being caught out!
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And to ad to post #656 above....
Michael Gove, cabinet office minister, has announced a £705m package of measures to strengthen Britain’s borders, claiming it would help the UK “seize the opportunities” of Brexit.
Mr Gove has had to delay by six months the full implementation of border controls from January 1 — when the Brexit transition period ends — after he claimed Covid-19 had held up preparations.
That has led to tensions with Liz Truss, trade secretary, who said the porous border could lead to smuggling and breach Britain’s obligations under the World Trade Organization to carry out checks.
Mr Gove’s plans include new border control posts and 500 extra Border Force staff, with proposals to set up checks away from ports that do not have the space to expand customs controls.
The money will include £470m for port and inland infrastructure and £235m for IT systems and staffing, while there will also be more cash for HM Revenue & Customs to reduce the burden on traders who will face new paperwork when trading with the EU.
Source.... https://www.ft.com/content/3e47ef0f-a33c-4c82-a956-a338d37cfc95
Wasn't one of the benefit of getting out of the EU supposed to be reducing bureaucracy and red tape?
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Syd, I am honoured I didn't realise you held me in such esteem, thanks mate, love you too.
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The entire Brexit process only makes ANY sense if you realise that it was about a small group taking the levers of power of the Tory Party, and by extension, the country.
There's no economic advantage. There's no bureaucratic logic. There's no social benefit. So there's no need to look for any.
It's the most cynically depressing process any of us have ever witnessed. The anger and bile of people was whipped up, then directed to put this lot in power. And at core, they don't actually give a f**k about you.
It's desperately and genuinely sad seeing the people who have been used and duped still flailing around trying to justify what is happening. It is the hardest thing in the world to admit that you trusted someone and you've been taken for a fool.
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It's a rare kind of fool that recognises that they're a fool though.
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Seriously, as I've said before that is the genius of a top quality sting. You leave the mark never realising who has scammed them, and lashing out at someone else instead. That is EXACTLY what has happened here.
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Well, I accept your opinion of your self, who am I to argue with you, I wouldn't say that your opinion of yourself is harsh though.
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For someone who looks down on younger people, it's very telling that you have the mentality of a primary school playground.
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Go on let out the secret, it's the Mail isn't it.
You tell me, you want us to think you know everything. It's very holier than thou.
Oh, and still wanting to know what you think Wombwell has to do with anything.
Still waiting. It's not like you to be so reticent, why so shy with your answers?
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Keep waiting, I prefer to just play with you for a while.
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Primary school playground.
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Primary school playground.
Is that a Half Man Half Biscuit song?
If not is should be...
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Primary school playground.
Is that a Half Man Half Biscuit song?
If not is should be...
No, but perhaps A Man Of Constant Sorrow would work just as well instead?
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Well, the people of Ashford have got exactly what they voted for....
(https://i.imgur.com/mA0WTbb.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/8OJjjkg.png)
I wonder what other parts of Britain will be disappointed when they get what they voted for too?
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No doubt they thought it should all get built in Calais! :silly:
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I saw Michael Gove on tv this morning saying they are going to spend £750 million on border security.
It's a shame they weren't able to ascertain exactly what this £750 million will be spent on. We already have border posts in place because we already check people coming in from the rest of the world - so what more are they going to do for £750 million?
That will get you a lot off barbed wire. Or a bloody great big car park. More sea perhaps? Dominic Cummings focus groups?
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If it stops one Irish scam tarmac team, or one camp being set up on private land, school field, or sports field and makes it difficult for drug traffickers it will be worth it.
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If it stops one Irish scam tarmac team, or one camp being set up on private land, school field, or sports field and makes it difficult for drug traffickers it will be worth it.
(https://i.imgur.com/lQuBnHe.gif)
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What makes me laugh is how we are only going to attract the right kind of immigrant whilst supposedly denying access to the undesirable.
How many doctors,nurses,nuclear scientists etc. have arrived here in the back of a wagon or on an inflatable?
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Just because someone is educated it doesn't stop them being 'undesireable'
The Australian government stopped the boats but up until Covid 19 thousands were coming in by air and simply overstaying their visas except they don't make a big deal of that.
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If it stops one Irish scam tarmac team, or one camp being set up on private land, school field, or sports field and makes it difficult for drug traffickers it will be worth it.
That's the problem. It won't.
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If it stops one Irish scam tarmac team, or one camp being set up on private land, school field, or sports field and makes it difficult for drug traffickers it will be worth it.
Brought to you from the "If chopping my foot off stopped my athlete's foot it'd be worth it" school of logic.
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Ah , out comes the messiah and his disciples. I bet you can't wait to get up in a morning to get together.
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What makes me laugh is how we are only going to attract the right kind of immigrant whilst supposedly denying access to the undesirable.
How many doctors,nurses,nuclear scientists etc. have arrived here in the back of a wagon or on an inflatable?
.... and (anecdotally) there is no doubt the Leavers cited getting rid of foreigners etc - taking back control etc etc BUT I have seen they are announcing the Points based immigration system today and part of it it is rumoured states that there will be no cap on the amount of people this system will let in
Will have to wait and see but that will be a kick in teeth for a lot of Leavers surely
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Keep waiting, I prefer to just play with you for a while.
I do so love your fishing expeditions, selby....
(https://i.imgur.com/0mHm7gi.gif)
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Kent is now being called the garage of England
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Ah , out comes the messiah and his disciples. I bet you can't wait to get up in a morning to get together.
Grow up.
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If it stops one Irish scam tarmac team, or one camp being set up on private land, school field, or sports field and makes it difficult for drug traffickers it will be worth it.
If there is anyone in government that knows about drug trafficking first hand it will be Michael Gove...
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£705m investment for Customs improvements after Brexit or the cost of Brexit for Customs improvements for the taxpayer £705m.
Which one ...... you decide
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(https://i.imgur.com/n4BFCEz.jpg)
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I like the signature on the card Kato, bottom right.
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This is all so pointless. We are creating a vast customs bureaucracy (with costs passed on to the consumer) to check goods which already meet the EU standards the UK has contributed to setting over the last four decades. Why?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/12/local-anger-over-plans-for-post-brexit-lorry-park-at-ashford
And this is likely to be the first of many!
Still waiting for one of you leavers to tell me how we're going to be better off leaving the EU!
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for me NNK its we won't be in the inevitable European state. You may disagree with my opinion but that's it
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for me NNK its we won't be in the inevitable European state. You may disagree with my opinion but that's it
I'm not sure that a United States of Europe is inevitable, (and had we remained in the EU it wouldn't have happened as we had the power of veto). But let's just say it does happen - then how is our being worse off, (we already are by the way), by our not being a part of it a benefit?
And before you throw in the 'unelected bureaucrats' myth, all positions in the EU are elected; unlike our home grown unelected bureaucrats such as Dominic Cummings and Baroness Evans.
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This is all so pointless. We are creating a vast customs bureaucracy (with costs passed on to the consumer) to check goods which already meet the EU standards the UK has contributed to setting over the last four decades. Why?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/12/local-anger-over-plans-for-post-brexit-lorry-park-at-ashford
And this is likely to be the first of many!
Still waiting for one of you leavers to tell me how we're going to be better off leaving the EU!
NNK
I’ve given you an example before, so that’s not true. As I’ve commented on here numerous times before, one advantage of leaving the EU is that the UK will not need to sign up to the EU fourth rail package.
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for me NNK its we won't be in the inevitable European state. You may disagree with my opinion but that's it
I'm not sure that a United States of Europe is inevitable, (and had we remained in the EU it wouldn't have happened as we had the power of veto). But let's just say it does happen - then how is our being worse off, (we already are by the way), by our not being a part of it a benefit?
And before you throw in the 'unelected bureaucrats' myth, all positions in the EU are elected; unlike our home grown unelected bureaucrats such as Dominic Cummings and Baroness Evans.
Are members of the EU Commission, that has the sole right to propose EU legislation, democratically elected by the people’s of Europe?
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for me NNK its we won't be in the inevitable European state. You may disagree with my opinion but that's it
I'm not sure that a United States of Europe is inevitable, (and had we remained in the EU it wouldn't have happened as we had the power of veto). But let's just say it does happen - then how is our being worse off, (we already are by the way), by our not being a part of it a benefit?
And before you throw in the 'unelected bureaucrats' myth, all positions in the EU are elected; unlike our home grown unelected bureaucrats such as Dominic Cummings and Baroness Evans.
Are members of the EU Commission, that has the sole right to propose EU legislation, democratically elected by the people’s of Europe?
No. They are, like the Tory government advisors who appear to be doing more than proposing legislation, the chosen representatives of individual governments. Thus the elected representative of the government.
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for me NNK its we won't be in the inevitable European state. You may disagree with my opinion but that's it
I'm not sure that a United States of Europe is inevitable, (and had we remained in the EU it wouldn't have happened as we had the power of veto). But let's just say it does happen - then how is our being worse off, (we already are by the way), by our not being a part of it a benefit?
And before you throw in the 'unelected bureaucrats' myth, all positions in the EU are elected; unlike our home grown unelected bureaucrats such as Dominic Cummings and Baroness Evans.
Are members of the EU Commission, that has the sole right to propose EU legislation, democratically elected by the people’s of Europe?
No. They are, like the Tory government advisors who appear to be doing more than proposing legislation, the chosen representatives of individual governments. Thus the elected representative of the government.
Ah, ok cheers. So, I think I’ve heard about this. If memory serves me right, the members of the Commission are proposed by the EU Commission president after being nominated by member states. The MEP’s are then given the opportunity to reject or query the whole list rather than individuals. So, they’re not given a choice as such. An individual member state could oppose the list but if the majority support it, then they’re in? So, I guess it’s democratic in a very broad way?
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Sort of although the EU Parliament doesn't act on member state lines - as they are from different parties in that member state. I would have thought it rare the LibDem/Labour MEP's would ever vote the same way as the UKIP/BP ones.
The commissioners are the chosen representatives of an elected government. Like any government appointee they represent the interests of that government.
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This is all so pointless. We are creating a vast customs bureaucracy (with costs passed on to the consumer) to check goods which already meet the EU standards the UK has contributed to setting over the last four decades. Why?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/12/local-anger-over-plans-for-post-brexit-lorry-park-at-ashford
And this is likely to be the first of many!
Still waiting for one of you leavers to tell me how we're going to be better off leaving the EU!
NNK
I’ve given you an example before, so that’s not true. As I’ve commented on here numerous times before, one advantage of leaving the EU is that the UK will not need to sign up to the EU fourth rail package.
I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you suggesting that the Guardian article is wrong? We're not going to build a lory park at Ashford? There isn't going to be the increase in bureaucracy that the government says there's going to be?
As to the 4th rail package, what are the disadvantages of standardisation?
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for me NNK its we won't be in the inevitable European state. You may disagree with my opinion but that's it
I'm not sure that a United States of Europe is inevitable, (and had we remained in the EU it wouldn't have happened as we had the power of veto). But let's just say it does happen - then how is our being worse off, (we already are by the way), by our not being a part of it a benefit?
And before you throw in the 'unelected bureaucrats' myth, all positions in the EU are elected; unlike our home grown unelected bureaucrats such as Dominic Cummings and Baroness Evans.
Are members of the EU Commission, that has the sole right to propose EU legislation, democratically elected by the people’s of Europe?
Of course they are. We elect MEPS to act on our behalf. The MEPS, on our behalf, elect the members of the EU Comission. They vote, on our behalf, on all legislative matters. Well, they did until we left!
Now, tell me, who voted for Dominic Cummings? Who voted for Baroness Evans?
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This is all so pointless. We are creating a vast customs bureaucracy (with costs passed on to the consumer) to check goods which already meet the EU standards the UK has contributed to setting over the last four decades. Why?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/12/local-anger-over-plans-for-post-brexit-lorry-park-at-ashford
And this is likely to be the first of many!
Still waiting for one of you leavers to tell me how we're going to be better off leaving the EU!
NNK
I’ve given you an example before, so that’s not true. As I’ve commented on here numerous times before, one advantage of leaving the EU is that the UK will not need to sign up to the EU fourth rail package.
I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you suggesting that the Guardian article is wrong? We're not going to build a lory park at Ashford? There isn't going to be the increase in bureaucracy that the government says there's going to be?
As to the 4th rail package, what are the disadvantages of standardisation?
I wasn’t commenting on the Guardian article. I don’t disagree with the article. I was commenting on your regular diatribe that nobody has ever provided you with an example of how we can be better off outside the EU.
As for the fourth rail package, I have studied this in a fair amount of detail and to describe it as standardisation is missing the point completely. One of the primary purposes of the package is to open up rail markets to both state and private ownership. As part of this package, the state cannot ‘own’ or ‘run’ the complete rail network, only part and all of this must be procured through a procurement and tender process. As a consequence, it will be virtually impossible for a member state to nationalise its complete rail infrastructure. As an advocate of railway nationalisation I consider this to be a bad thing. So, to answer your specific point again, one advantage of leaving the EU is that a future Labour government will be able to re-nationalise the railway network and infrastructure if it sees fit.
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for me NNK its we won't be in the inevitable European state. You may disagree with my opinion but that's it
I'm not sure that a United States of Europe is inevitable, (and had we remained in the EU it wouldn't have happened as we had the power of veto). But let's just say it does happen - then how is our being worse off, (we already are by the way), by our not being a part of it a benefit?
And before you throw in the 'unelected bureaucrats' myth, all positions in the EU are elected; unlike our home grown unelected bureaucrats such as Dominic Cummings and Baroness Evans.
Are members of the EU Commission, that has the sole right to propose EU legislation, democratically elected by the people’s of Europe?
Of course they are. We elect MEPS to act on our behalf. The MEPS, on our behalf, elect the members of the EU Comission. They vote, on our behalf, on all legislative matters. Well, they did until we left!
Now, tell me, who voted for Dominic Cummings? Who voted for Baroness Evans?
Dont forget "I dont want to be an MP any more Nicky Morgan "
Morgan accepted the appointment by Boris Johnson of Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport in July 2019, even though she had stated in 2018 she would not serve in a Johnson government. In October 2019, Morgan announced she would stand down as an MP at the 2019 general election but retained her cabinet post as part of the second Johnson ministry after being elevated to the House of Lords as a life peer.
Dont forget Zac Goldsmith (the opposer of new Runway at Heathrow) either
Goldsmith was made Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment and International Development on 27 July 2019 and was promoted to Minister of State with the right to attend Cabinet on 10 September 2019. He was defeated at the 2019 general election, again by Sarah Olney. After the election, Boris Johnson awarded Goldsmith with a life peerage, making him a member of the House of Lords and allowing him to retain his ministerial position. On 13 February 2020, he acquired the additional role of Minister of State for Foreign Affairs with responsibility for the Pacific.
Snouts in troughs - snouts in troughs simple as that. HOL should also be abolished to stop the "back door electing like these two" and I mean by all Parties
What is particularly ironic is that we are discussing on here unelected beauro's and it was cited it as a reason for voting Leave to (insert 3 word Mantra) " Take back control" yet Liar Johnson has already proved a master at doing the opposite with ths tactic
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This is all so pointless. We are creating a vast customs bureaucracy (with costs passed on to the consumer) to check goods which already meet the EU standards the UK has contributed to setting over the last four decades. Why?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/12/local-anger-over-plans-for-post-brexit-lorry-park-at-ashford
And this is likely to be the first of many!
Still waiting for one of you leavers to tell me how we're going to be better off leaving the EU!
NNK
I’ve given you an example before, so that’s not true. As I’ve commented on here numerous times before, one advantage of leaving the EU is that the UK will not need to sign up to the EU fourth rail package.
I'm not sure what you are saying. Are you suggesting that the Guardian article is wrong? We're not going to build a lory park at Ashford? There isn't going to be the increase in bureaucracy that the government says there's going to be?
As to the 4th rail package, what are the disadvantages of standardisation?
I wasn’t commenting on the Guardian article. I don’t disagree with the article. I was commenting on your regular diatribe that nobody has ever provided you with an example of how we can be better off outside the EU.
As for the fourth rail package, I have studied this in a fair amount of detail and to describe it as standardisation is missing the point completely. One of the primary purposes of the package is to open up rail markets to both state and private ownership. As part of this package, the state cannot ‘own’ or ‘run’ the complete rail network, only part and all of this must be procured through a procurement and tender process. As a consequence, it will be virtually impossible for a member state to nationalise its complete rail infrastructure. As an advocate of railway nationalisation I consider this to be a bad thing. So, to answer your specific point again, one advantage of leaving the EU is that a future Labour government will be able to re-nationalise the railway network and infrastructure if it sees fit.
'Can' isn't 'WILL'. One could argue the we CAN be better off if we negotiate a better deal with Nigeria than the one the EU has - yes, it COULD be done, but WILL it?
As to the fourth rail package. Standardisation, (the technical pillar), forms 50% of that 'package' but is where the majority of work across the EU has to happen. The marketing pillar, which entails much less work, does not preclude state ownership, though it does make it somewhat difficult, though not impossible, to achieve. Also, the fourth rail package does not preclude state investment in rail infrastructure, nor does it require current ownership of that infrastructure to be relinquished. In the UK, around 75% of the railway infrastructure, (the tracks, large stations and the signalling infrastructure), is already under public control.
By the way, the current government has, in effect, just nationalised the passenger part of the UK's railway service.
But notwithstanding all that, can you demonstrate that nationalisation of the remaining 25% of the UK's railways WILL be a benefit to people in the UK, IF it were to happen at all?
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for me NNK its we won't be in the inevitable European state. You may disagree with my opinion but that's it
I'm not sure that a United States of Europe is inevitable, (and had we remained in the EU it wouldn't have happened as we had the power of veto). But let's just say it does happen - then how is our being worse off, (we already are by the way), by our not being a part of it a benefit?
And before you throw in the 'unelected bureaucrats' myth, all positions in the EU are elected; unlike our home grown unelected bureaucrats such as Dominic Cummings and Baroness Evans.
Are members of the EU Commission, that has the sole right to propose EU legislation, democratically elected by the people’s of Europe?
Of course they are. We elect MEPS to act on our behalf. The MEPS, on our behalf, elect the members of the EU Comission. They vote, on our behalf, on all legislative matters. Well, they did until we left!
Now, tell me, who voted for Dominic Cummings? Who voted for Baroness Evans?
Dont forget "I dont want to be an MP any more Nicky Morgan "
Morgan accepted the appointment by Boris Johnson of Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport in July 2019, even though she had stated in 2018 she would not serve in a Johnson government. In October 2019, Morgan announced she would stand down as an MP at the 2019 general election but retained her cabinet post as part of the second Johnson ministry after being elevated to the House of Lords as a life peer.
Dont forget Zac Goldsmith (the opposer of new Runway at Heathrow) either
Goldsmith was made Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Environment and International Development on 27 July 2019 and was promoted to Minister of State with the right to attend Cabinet on 10 September 2019. He was defeated at the 2019 general election, again by Sarah Olney. After the election, Boris Johnson awarded Goldsmith with a life peerage, making him a member of the House of Lords and allowing him to retain his ministerial position. On 13 February 2020, he acquired the additional role of Minister of State for Foreign Affairs with responsibility for the Pacific.
Snouts in troughs - snouts in troughs simple as that. HOL should also be abolished to stop the "back door electing like these two" and I mean by all Parties
What is particularly ironic is that we are discussing on here unelected beauro's and it was cited it as a reason for voting Leave to (insert 3 word Mantra) " Take back control" yet Liar Johnson has already proved a master at doing the opposite with ths tactic
You're absolutely right Woolfie, I only included the two in Johnson's cabinet as they have an immediate and profound impact on what happens in this country at the highest level, but there are indeed other 'unelected bureaucrats' as you rightly pointed out - something that Leavers were against, or so they said. I don't hear them decrying it in our system, even though it doesn't actually happen in the EU infrastructure, only in the minds of those who read the Mail, Express, Sun etc etc!
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More empty slogans to fool the gullible from Dominic Cummings....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aO-YTQ94jA&feature=youtu.be
And you're paying for them!
Check Change Go, what does that even mean?
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NNK
Of course I put ‘can’ rather than ‘will’ because who knows when and if we will renationalise the railways? The point is that we CAN do it if we wish. If we remained in the EU then it’s impossible.
I’m not sure where you’ve cut and past your references to the fourth rail package but you’re not painting the full picture here.
State ownership is allowed, however one organisation (state owned or otherwise) cannot own all aspects of the network! So, by default full state ownership cannot happen! Also, current ownership of part infrastructure can and will be relinquished in some areas. Some private and state owned routes in Europe are being forced through a procurement process for ownership.
Over the past couple of years a number of European countries have been fined by the EU for ‘back door’ state ownership. This is where state ownership hides behind a private organisation. Despite what you may think, the EU are fundamentally opposed to nationalised railway infrastructures and the primary purpose of the package is to, at best dissuade and at worst prevent, railway nationalisation.
Can I demonstrate that rail nationalisation benefits the people of the UK? Do I really need to answer that? Have you used trains since privatisation?
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The Irish have found out to their cost just what they can and can't do in their own country. It has just cost them 13 billion euro.
At the risk of being called biased, I think if this had happened in the UK, Apple would be accused of having friends in high places.
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NNK
Of course I put ‘can’ rather than ‘will’ because who knows when and if we will renationalise the railways? The point is that we CAN do it if we wish. If we remained in the EU then it’s impossible.
I’m not sure where you’ve cut and past your references to the fourth rail package but you’re not painting the full picture here.
State ownership is allowed, however one organisation (state owned or otherwise) cannot own all aspects of the network! So, by default full state ownership cannot happen! Also, current ownership of part infrastructure can and will be relinquished in some areas. Some private and state owned routes in Europe are being forced through a procurement process for ownership.
Over the past couple of years a number of European countries have been fined by the EU for ‘back door’ state ownership. This is where state ownership hides behind a private organisation. Despite what you may think, the EU are fundamentally opposed to nationalised railway infrastructures and the primary purpose of the package is to, at best dissuade and at worst prevent, railway nationalisation.
Can I demonstrate that rail nationalisation benefits the people of the UK? Do I really need to answer that? Have you used trains since privatisation?
I haven't cut or pasted a single thing in my reply HA. Whenever I have done that in any post I have always inserted my C&P inside a quote box, followed by an attribution link below it. What I have posted above is from my own understanding, neither more nor less.
I would disagree with your statement that the EU are fundamentally opposed to nationalised railway infrastructures though I understand what you're saying. Perhaps a better way of putting it is that the EU would prefer to see an open competitive marketplace for the benefit of customers. The 'state' is completely free to compete with private enterprise if it can.
As to your last question, I've been a regular rail traveller since 1965 so have experienced both 'nationalised' and 'privatised over a nationalised backbone' rail travel. The former was fair at best, (poor and degenerating rolling stock, poor timekeeping, (largely due to the technology in use at the time), the latter started off well but degenerated to as bad a level as the former. In both cases this was down to cut backs, (Dr Beeching anyone?), and lack of investment. Re-nationalisation, in itself, will lead to no tangible benefits. It will require significant investment from government to improve, and this is true for all forms of public and private transport.
At the end of the day we live in a country which now does things down to a price rather than up to a standard, and I can't see that changing any time soon.
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NNK
Of course I put ‘can’ rather than ‘will’ because who knows when and if we will renationalise the railways? The point is that we CAN do it if we wish. If we remained in the EU then it’s impossible.
I’m not sure where you’ve cut and past your references to the fourth rail package but you’re not painting the full picture here.
State ownership is allowed, however one organisation (state owned or otherwise) cannot own all aspects of the network! So, by default full state ownership cannot happen! Also, current ownership of part infrastructure can and will be relinquished in some areas. Some private and state owned routes in Europe are being forced through a procurement process for ownership.
Over the past couple of years a number of European countries have been fined by the EU for ‘back door’ state ownership. This is where state ownership hides behind a private organisation. Despite what you may think, the EU are fundamentally opposed to nationalised railway infrastructures and the primary purpose of the package is to, at best dissuade and at worst prevent, railway nationalisation.
Can I demonstrate that rail nationalisation benefits the people of the UK? Do I really need to answer that? Have you used trains since privatisation?
I haven't cut or pasted a single thing in my reply HA. Whenever I have done that in any post I have always inserted my C&P inside a quote box, followed by an attribution link below it. What I have posted above is from my own understanding, neither more nor less.
I would disagree with your statement that the EU are fundamentally opposed to nationalised railway infrastructures though I understand what you're saying. Perhaps a better way of putting it is that the EU would prefer to see an open competitive marketplace for the benefit of customers. The 'state' is completely free to compete with private enterprise if it can.
As to your last question, I've been a regular rail traveller since 1965 so have experienced both 'nationalised' and 'privatised over a nationalised backbone' rail travel. The former was fair at best, (poor and degenerating rolling stock, poor timekeeping, (largely due to the technology in use at the time), the latter started off well but degenerated to as bad a level as the former. In both cases this was down to cut backs, (Dr Beeching anyone?), and lack of investment. Re-nationalisation, in itself, will lead to no tangible benefits. It will require significant investment from government to improve, and this is true for all forms of public and private transport.
At the end of the day we live in a country which now does things down to a price rather than up to a standard, and I can't see that changing any time soon.
NNK
Ok, I apologise & I’ll take the first bit back.
The question is, is it a free and competitive market? One entity will not be able to manage more than one feature of the rail network. So, the state could own track management but can’t own the train management for example. Consequently, state ownership (how most people understand it) could never happen under EU law! A sovereign state cannot make the decision to renationalise. As I’ve said before, countries have received huge fines for attempting to covertly install state control and this is going to make it more difficult. What the fourth package is looking to do is to install free market principles in railways by fragmenting ownership, similar to our own railway system in the UK. While a nationalised rail network isn’t perfect, it’s certainly preferential than a free market solution.
So, to answer your original point, the freedom to completely renationalise the rail network is one advantage of leaving the EU.
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The Irish have found out to their cost just what they can and can't do in their own country. It has just cost them 13 billion euro.
At the risk of being called biased, I think if this had happened in the UK, Apple would be accused of having friends in high places.
I've realised now why you make statements without attributing links selby....
Apple and Ireland have won their appeal against the European Commission over a 13 billion euro (£11.6 billion) tax bill.
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/republic-of-ireland/apple-and-ireland-win-13-billion-euro-tax-appeal-39369773.html
Ireland wins appeal in €13 billion Apple tax case
“The outcome vindicates Ireland’s adherence, not just to Irish but also European rules, when levying taxation,” said Brian Keegan, director of public policy at Chartered Accountants Ireland. “While the amounts of money are vast and the additional tax ... would be welcome, particularly now as we struggle to pay for the cost of the pandemic, it would have been wrong to claim money that is not rightfully ours.”
https://www.irishtimes.com/business/economy/ireland-wins-appeal-in-13-billion-apple-tax-case-1.4305044
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The Irish have found out to their cost just what they can and can't do in their own country. It has just cost them 13 billion euro.
At the risk of being called biased, I think if this had happened in the UK, Apple would be accused of having friends in high places.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53416206
It is a blow for the European Commission, which brought the case.
I can't think why you never bother to post links!
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NNK
Of course I put ‘can’ rather than ‘will’ because who knows when and if we will renationalise the railways? The point is that we CAN do it if we wish. If we remained in the EU then it’s impossible.
I’m not sure where you’ve cut and past your references to the fourth rail package but you’re not painting the full picture here.
State ownership is allowed, however one organisation (state owned or otherwise) cannot own all aspects of the network! So, by default full state ownership cannot happen! Also, current ownership of part infrastructure can and will be relinquished in some areas. Some private and state owned routes in Europe are being forced through a procurement process for ownership.
Over the past couple of years a number of European countries have been fined by the EU for ‘back door’ state ownership. This is where state ownership hides behind a private organisation. Despite what you may think, the EU are fundamentally opposed to nationalised railway infrastructures and the primary purpose of the package is to, at best dissuade and at worst prevent, railway nationalisation.
Can I demonstrate that rail nationalisation benefits the people of the UK? Do I really need to answer that? Have you used trains since privatisation?
I haven't cut or pasted a single thing in my reply HA. Whenever I have done that in any post I have always inserted my C&P inside a quote box, followed by an attribution link below it. What I have posted above is from my own understanding, neither more nor less.
I would disagree with your statement that the EU are fundamentally opposed to nationalised railway infrastructures though I understand what you're saying. Perhaps a better way of putting it is that the EU would prefer to see an open competitive marketplace for the benefit of customers. The 'state' is completely free to compete with private enterprise if it can.
As to your last question, I've been a regular rail traveller since 1965 so have experienced both 'nationalised' and 'privatised over a nationalised backbone' rail travel. The former was fair at best, (poor and degenerating rolling stock, poor timekeeping, (largely due to the technology in use at the time), the latter started off well but degenerated to as bad a level as the former. In both cases this was down to cut backs, (Dr Beeching anyone?), and lack of investment. Re-nationalisation, in itself, will lead to no tangible benefits. It will require significant investment from government to improve, and this is true for all forms of public and private transport.
At the end of the day we live in a country which now does things down to a price rather than up to a standard, and I can't see that changing any time soon.
NNK
Ok, I apologise & I’ll take the first bit back.
The question is, is it a free and competitive market? One entity will not be able to manage more than one feature of the rail network. So, the state could own track management but can’t own the train management for example. Consequently, state ownership (how most people understand it) could never happen under EU law! A sovereign state cannot make the decision to renationalise. As I’ve said before, countries have received huge fines for attempting to covertly install state control and this is going to make it more difficult. What the fourth package is looking to do is to install free market principles in railways by fragmenting ownership, similar to our own railway system in the UK. While a nationalised rail network isn’t perfect, it’s certainly preferential than a free market solution.
So, to answer your original point, the freedom to completely renationalise the rail network is one advantage of leaving the EU.
Thank you HA. :)
I think that the EU's principal objective here is to seek to find the best form of integration across the rail networks of member states and the major part of that are the technical compliances. That is more relative to the rail networks on mainland Europe as these are either directly interconnected or are planned to be so; our direct rail links to Europe are significantly limited and are now likely to be so for some considerable time. In terms of open competition, the EU does not prevent a 'state' competing against private business so long as it is able to show that it is competing on a fair and level playing field; and to this end the EU is right to fine any 'state' which is trying to covertly compete illegally via a back door route.
I'm not sure why you say "While a nationalised rail network isn’t perfect, it’s certainly preferential than a free market solution". It may be appealing to socialist principles, (it certainly is to mine), but for it to be a benefit of Brexit you would need to show how it will work better, (from both a financial and an operational perspective), than the model the EU is adopting. For either to work here to our benefit would require the abandonment of vanity projects such as Cross Rail and HS2 alongside a well though out development program and serious investment. Is that investment more likely from 'state' or from 'private enterprise'?
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More empty slogans to fool the gullible from Dominic Cummings....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aO-YTQ94jA&feature=youtu.be
And you're paying for them!
Check Change Go, what does that even mean?
Check Change Go
Why is everything about underpants with this lot :)
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Seen the ads on the telly. They don’t actually tell us anything practical do they.?
So what’s the point.?
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Seen the ads on the telly. They don’t actually tell us anything practical do they.?
So what’s the point.?
I suspect it's to be seen to be doing something to pacify the gullible whilst actually doing nothing at all!
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I suspect Dominic is losing his mojo if he can't come up with owt better than Check Change Go.
That sound like someone with onset dementia going through their list before going to the shop.
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I suspect Dominic is losing his mojo if he can't come up with owt better than Check Change Go.
That sound like someone with onset dementia going through their list before going to the shop.
Cummings will be gone within the next 12 months. The Tory backbenchers are beginning to flex their muscles a little.
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the Guardian live
''Michael Gove has confirmed that up to five sites in Kent will be used as Brexit border facilities as the government confirms purchase of the vast Kent site for customs clearance and a lorry park.
Just days after the Cabinet Office minister said it was not the intent to use it as a lorry park, the Department for Transport has written to residents in Ashford to confirm the move, first revealed by the Guardian on Friday''
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Up to 12 apparently....
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-customs-centres-kent-lorry-park-eu-exit-ashford-a9616486.html
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Up to 12 apparently....
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-customs-centres-kent-lorry-park-eu-exit-ashford-a9616486.html
When Cummings/Johnson said his government was all about jobs, jobs, jobs, who knew he meant tarmacers and car park attendents!
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Certainly not in the banking and finance sector.
Major international banks cutting their staff in London due to fears of No Deal & UK recession. 20% less staff expected to be employed than in 2019.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-06/banks-are-ditching-london-offices-and-not-just-because-of-covid?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB
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Harsh reality punctures Britain's Brexit balloon.
Britain is about to discover the hard way that whilst Leavers were sincere in their political beliefs about Brexit, their economic arguments were, and still are, a costly and damaging sham.
From that leftie rag - The Financial Times
https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/1284219814429560833
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John Bercow has belled the cat
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https://twitter.com/HouseofCommons/status/1285314836386242565?s=19
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Lot,s of unhappy bunnies in Ireland and Scandinavia even in Germany and now they have to sell topping up the the Italians, Greeks, and Spain's living standards by paying more taxes and chipping in a few billion here and there.
Looks like the good times are over in Dublin, and the launch of the Italexit party tomorrow morning with the one platform to get out.
It's a funny old world, the contributions we would have been landed with must go a long way to pay for Brexit already.
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Not linked = not interested.
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Head in sand, If you want something to read Glyn go to Spiegel international and look at the exploitation of migrant workers in your perfect heaven.
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New post-Brexit customs paperwork is set to cost UK business £7 billion - every year.
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/top-stories/post-brexit-customs-forms-to-cost-firms-7bn-per-year-ft-says-1-6744837
UK abandons hopes of a US trade deal by end of year
https://www.ft.com/content/383f174e-baa4-49c5-86c3-d2b5f6453fd4
Brexit talks on brink of collapse as UK close to abandoning hope of EU trade deal
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1312573/Brexit-news-uk-eu-trade-talks-david-frost-michel-barnier-boris-johnson-deal-wto-rules
Go on Selby. Tell us all how well its going and how better off we are going to be.
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Head in sand, If you want something to read Glyn go to Spiegel international and look at the exploitation of migrant workers in your perfect heaven.
If you want me to read anything pull your finger out and give not just me but everybody else a link to it.
Oh, and I've never said the EU is perfect so you can shove the words you're putting into my mouth back into the orifice of your's from whence they sprang.
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The disciples are out in force I see licking it all up.
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No answer as usual. Waste of space out in force again.
*awaits selby's inevitable primary playground response*
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The disciples are out in force I see licking it all up.
Any comment on the Russia report, or are you following your hero and just ignoring it
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Lot,s of unhappy bunnies in Ireland and Scandinavia even in Germany and now they have to sell topping up the the Italians, Greeks, and Spain's living standards by paying more taxes and chipping in a few billion here and there.
Looks like the good times are over in Dublin, and the launch of the Italexit party tomorrow morning with the one platform to get out.
It's a funny old world, the contributions we would have been landed with must go a long way to pay for Brexit already.
(https://i.imgur.com/SEte0QB.gif)
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It's a funny old world, the contributions we would have been landed with must go a long way to pay for Brexit already.
In a field with some very stiff competition, that is undoubtedly the most divorced-from-reality comment I've heard from anyone in the Brexit Death Cult.
EU contributions saved so far: Approx £4bn
Lost output due to economic slowdown since the 2016 vote: Approx £200bn.
So, Selby, if your definition of "a long way" is "2%", lends us ten thousand quid and I'll go a long way towards paying you back over the next 5 years.
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Update.
Actually, I was wrong of course. We haven't yet saved a penny because we are still paying our contribution.
Meanwhile, we've already spent the contribution that we'd get back in 2021, in preparations for a crash out that never came last year (including the money that Grayling gave to a shipping company with no ships) and the money we are currently spending building customs check points and lorry parks for when we choose to make it harder to trade with the richest bloc in world history on our doorstep.
Remind me what them advantages were...
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Update.
Actually, I was wrong of course. We haven't yet saved a penny because we are still paying our contribution.
Meanwhile, we've already spent the contribution that we'd get back in 2021, in preparations for a crash out that never came last year (including the money that Grayling gave to a shipping company with no ships) and the money we are currently spending building customs check points and lorry parks for when we choose to make it harder to trade with the richest bloc in world history on our doorstep.
Remind me what them advantages were...
Blue Passports BST, we got Blue Passports!
(https://i.imgur.com/mYUCEfy.jpg)
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Blue Passports BST, we got Blue Passports!
Errr, bad news on that front:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8431917/Britains-new-post-Brexit-passport-mocked-online-black-flimsy-poor-quality.html
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Makes you think.
https://mobile.twitter.com/shaunjlawson/status/1286295887283736579
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Blue Passports BST, we got Blue Passports!
Errr, bad news on that front:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8431917/Britains-new-post-Brexit-passport-mocked-online-black-flimsy-poor-quality.html
Yeah I know, I've got one and it's rubbish!
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Blue Passports BST, we got Blue Passports!
Errr, bad news on that front:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8431917/Britains-new-post-Brexit-passport-mocked-online-black-flimsy-poor-quality.html
Yeah I know, I've got one and it's rubbish!
They didn't put that on the side of the bus!!!
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Remember Dyson, in the lead up to the Brexit vote saying leave was the best thing for the UK and them moving his manufacturing to Singapore? At the same time Lord Bamford, (Chairman of JCB), said exactly the same thing - and now look what he's done....
https://m.facebook.com/lovingeurope2/photos/a.1002464779939225/1412631092255923/?type=3&source=48
Brexiters, when will you wake up and admit you've been had?
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FFS - that's TOTALLY disgusting.
Persuade people to leave then jump ship to stay IN yourself
TOTALLY f*****g disgusting in fact
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Aye, aye, I see the 'Islington Remainers' that Johnson crtisised at Wednesday's PMQ's have been out in force today:
'I love the EU Single Market' because being "paid up members of the single market" is what helped build our country "I can see no reason why any prime minister" in their right mind would ever take us out.
https://twitter.com/Femi_Sorry/status/1287403811699597312
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I'd much prefer to post good news about brexit but it's hard to come by.
''A report from the London School of Economics says Brexit will deliver a double shock to the economy – with worsening business conditions for those sectors that have survived the impact of coronavirus and lockdown measures – whether Boris Johnson secures a deal with the EU or not''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/28/brexit-will-deliver-double-shock-to-uk-economy-study-finds-coronavirus
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I had to check if this was a typo.
https://mobile.twitter.com/tradegovuk/status/1287311852154900482
No. They really ARE trumpeting £250m of deals.
A bit of perspective. That's about the amount that the economy produces every 50 minutes. It is about 0.1% of the amount we have lost in poor economic performance since the Brexit vote.
Once again, they are insulting your intelligence.
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I reckon I can see where this is going....
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-launches-independent-panel-to-look-at-judicial-review?fbclid=IwAR2wbkiGuVGDs6Ge8sVfVrrRnOFD2alpAvvlAad5KiHqGnxor0Bz6ReG0Zg
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"The review will be chaired by Lord Edward Faulks QC, and will consider whether the right balance is being struck between the rights of citizens to challenge executive decisions and the need for effective and efficient government."
This, of course, was provoked by the Supreme Court ruling that Johnson had broken the law in disbanding Parliament last year.
So "the need for effective and efficient Govt" roughly translates as "the need for the PM to be able to break the law and lie to the Queen as and when he feels like it,without being stopped."
UK 2020...
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We are moving by stealth to an authoritarian state, all other party’s will be banned soon
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Man that votes for the Withdrawal Agreement, and then votes to rush it through Parliament avoiding proper scrutiny, now complains about the contents of the withdrawal agreement.
I give you Iain Duncan Smith, more or less admitting he did n’t know what he voted for, how incredibly stupid can he be?
https://twitter.com/mpiainds/status/1290292766514135040?s=21
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It's amazing that people who maintained that all leave voters knew exactly what they were voting for now have reservations.
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IDS is a disgusting example of the modern far Right. Always, ALWAYS whipping up bile by blaming someone. Never a solution. Always a complaint.
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That's exactly what it is. Blaming "the fine print" because he knows it'll play well to the gallery. If there is fine print, we're supposed to have the country's top lawyers and diplomats checking it over, so what difference does it make?
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At last, a real benefit of Brexit - the Government has come up with a plan to make it really easy to export good to the EU....
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/enforcing-operation-brock-plans-in-2021/proposed-legislative-amendments-on-enforcing-operation-brock
It's going to be just as easy as Levers were promised....
Being border-ready means that an HCV driver is carrying all the necessary documentation to get through the GB and EU port (or has been provided with the appropriate information to get the documentation).
This includes:
customs documentation:
a master or movement reference number (MRN) from an import declaration if the goods are going to stay in the country of disembarkation (for example, goods going from GB to France), or a transit accompanying document if the goods are either staying in the country of disembarkation or going to move beyond it (for example, goods going from GB to Spain via France)
an admission temporaire/temporary admission (ATA) carnet if the goods are temporarily going abroad (for example, goods going from GB to France and then back to GB)
a transports internationaux routiers (TIR) carnet if goods are sealed and/or going to non-Common Transit Convention (CTC) member countries (for example, GB to India overland).
import and export documentation depending on what goods are carried (it is possible that a free trade agreement or sectoral deal may change some of the requirements for import and export documentation). For example, EU member state authorities will check for the following on arrival at the EU port:
products of animal origin require an export health certificate
plant and plant-based products require a phytosanitary certificate
fish require a catch certificate, export health certificate and where appropriate a captain’s certificate.
Some documentation could be electronic or physical (like the MRN barcode) while others would need to be physical (like the ATA carnet). Please note that the list is not exhaustive; for more information, please refer to the Border Operating Model published on 13 July 2020.
In addition, there may be other forms of import/export documentation that an HCV driver will need to carry on behalf of their trader which would not be checked at the ports. An HCV driver using the accompanied roll on roll off (RoRo) route would need a safety and security declaration before arriving in the EU. However, EU rules mean that they can be completed shortly before arriving in the EU.
Some EU member states have additional national requirements for goods arriving from GB, for example:
France requires the use of the SI Brexit system, and the MRN barcodes for multiple consignments must be compiled in to a single ‘envelope’ MRN that will be scanned
the Netherlands and Belgium require that all movements are pre-notified using the Portbase and RXSeaport systems respectively; HCVs that are not pre-notified will not be allowed to leave Dutch or Belgian ports
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Brock is a perfect name it can be used in many contexts such as it's brock, it's f**king brock, it's really f**king brock :)
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At last, a real benefit of Brexit - the Government has come up with a plan to make it really easy to export good to the EU....
https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/enforcing-operation-brock-plans-in-2021/proposed-legislative-amendments-on-enforcing-operation-brock
It's going to be just as easy as Levers were promised....
Being border-ready means that an HCV driver is carrying all the necessary documentation to get through the GB and EU port (or has been provided with the appropriate information to get the documentation).
This includes:
customs documentation:
a master or movement reference number (MRN) from an import declaration if the goods are going to stay in the country of disembarkation (for example, goods going from GB to France), or a transit accompanying document if the goods are either staying in the country of disembarkation or going to move beyond it (for example, goods going from GB to Spain via France)
an admission temporaire/temporary admission (ATA) carnet if the goods are temporarily going abroad (for example, goods going from GB to France and then back to GB)
a transports internationaux routiers (TIR) carnet if goods are sealed and/or going to non-Common Transit Convention (CTC) member countries (for example, GB to India overland).
import and export documentation depending on what goods are carried (it is possible that a free trade agreement or sectoral deal may change some of the requirements for import and export documentation). For example, EU member state authorities will check for the following on arrival at the EU port:
products of animal origin require an export health certificate
plant and plant-based products require a phytosanitary certificate
fish require a catch certificate, export health certificate and where appropriate a captain’s certificate.
Some documentation could be electronic or physical (like the MRN barcode) while others would need to be physical (like the ATA carnet). Please note that the list is not exhaustive; for more information, please refer to the Border Operating Model published on 13 July 2020.
In addition, there may be other forms of import/export documentation that an HCV driver will need to carry on behalf of their trader which would not be checked at the ports. An HCV driver using the accompanied roll on roll off (RoRo) route would need a safety and security declaration before arriving in the EU. However, EU rules mean that they can be completed shortly before arriving in the EU.
Some EU member states have additional national requirements for goods arriving from GB, for example:
France requires the use of the SI Brexit system, and the MRN barcodes for multiple consignments must be compiled in to a single ‘envelope’ MRN that will be scanned
the Netherlands and Belgium require that all movements are pre-notified using the Portbase and RXSeaport systems respectively; HCVs that are not pre-notified will not be allowed to leave Dutch or Belgian ports
The Government hasn't come up with anything. These are exactly the measures that anyone who knows about this kind of stuff knew would have to be re-introduced to import/export traffic once we left the SM/CU. This is what movements to non-EU countries already have to have, all that's happening is that all the EU countries are going to be joining them after December 31st. If anybody thinks this is a surprise (or, even more ridiculously, an EU plot against Britain!) then they haven't been watching properly.
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The barrel has been scraped and ...............
EXCLUSIVE: Former Oz PM Tony Abbott to be Britain’s new joint President of the Board of Trade in major revamp. Forthright Aussie to “bang the drum for Brexit Britain around the world” in shock signing:
Ex-Australian PM Tony Abbott to be unveiled as Britain’s new trade deal supremo as Brexit deadline...
EX-AUSTRALIAN Prime Minister Tony Abbott is to be unveiled as Britain’s new trade deal supremo, The Sun can reveal. The forthright Aussie has been appointed joint President of Britain’s relaunched …
thesun.co.uk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wT9XS_TvzQ
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The barrel has been scraped and ...............
EXCLUSIVE: Former Oz PM Tony Abbott to be Britain’s new joint President of the Board of Trade in major revamp. Forthright Aussie to “bang the drum for Brexit Britain around the world” in shock signing:
Ex-Australian PM Tony Abbott to be unveiled as Britain’s new trade deal supremo as Brexit deadline...
EX-AUSTRALIAN Prime Minister Tony Abbott is to be unveiled as Britain’s new trade deal supremo, The Sun can reveal. The forthright Aussie has been appointed joint President of Britain’s relaunched …
thesun.co.uk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wT9XS_TvzQ
So the British Government is too useless to be able to negotiate trade deals.
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The barrel has been scraped and ...............
EXCLUSIVE: Former Oz PM Tony Abbott to be Britain’s new joint President of the Board of Trade in major revamp. Forthright Aussie to “bang the drum for Brexit Britain around the world” in shock signing:
Ex-Australian PM Tony Abbott to be unveiled as Britain’s new trade deal supremo as Brexit deadline...
EX-AUSTRALIAN Prime Minister Tony Abbott is to be unveiled as Britain’s new trade deal supremo, The Sun can reveal. The forthright Aussie has been appointed joint President of Britain’s relaunched …
thesun.co.uk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wT9XS_TvzQ
So the British Government is too useless to be able to negotiate trade deals.
So they have appointed someone who has never negotiated a trade deal in his life to do it. But he is a misogynist racist. Yep, sounds right.
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Just a little aside.
All those people who supported Brexit because "we were told is was just a Common Market but never that it would be a political union." I wonder where they got that idea from.
Have a look at the things that were discussed about the EEC in the 60s and 70s.
https://mobile.twitter.com/EmporersNewC/status/1297949374291628033
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So, 4 months on Tuesday, we leave the Single Market and Customs Union.
Good to see that we are well prepared for the consequences.
https://www.bloomberg.com/amp/news/articles/2020-08-27/u-k-starts-research-on-brexit-customs-system-due-in-four-months?__twitter_impression=true
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On Thursday 20th July 2017 Liam Fox said that a post-Brexit free trade deal with the EU will be the “easiest in human history.”
On Tuesday 1st Sept 2020 No 10 blames the EU and plays down prospects of any Brexit trade deal whatsoever..... https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/01/no-10-blames-eu-and-plays-down-prospects-of-brexit-trade-deal
But you don't have to worry, Tony Abbott will be joining Liz Truss on the front lines....
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Remember johnson in Myanmar as acting foreign Secretary, Abbott has roughly the same amount of respect for culture and about the same amount of tact.
https://www.facebook.com/ehusic/photos/a.563951906974693/3322435441126312/?type=3&theater
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Does anyone have any idea what the strategy with negotiations with the EU is? we seem to be totally unprepared for the consequences of no-deal which are fairly obvious to most including the EU and yet at this late stage still playing the brinkmanship card.
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As far as I can see, our approach appears to be that we want a preferential trade deal, along with the right to opt in or out of various agreements on environmental, social, workers' rights and product standard agreements.
And the EU's position is, you can have a trade deal that includes agreement on all those standards or you can have no trade deal.
Our negotiators are regularly briefing the press that this is utterly unfair from the EU and that we deserve something better.
But that raises a question. Why on earth is the EU not giving us precisely what we ask for? Johnson, Gove, Davis Grayling, Fox, Farage and a string of others unequivocally told us in 2016 that these would be the easiest negotiations ever. That we held all the cards. That the EU would come crawling on its knees to give us whatever deal we wanted. That the negotiations could be completed in a few weeks. That the German car industry would threaten to run Merkel down if she didn't sort out a deal with us.
Hey. Here's a thought! You don't think that set of career-long liars and bullshitters might have been lying and bullshitting in 2016 do you?
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The plan is either really really cunning or it's a crock and here's the thing, if it is the most cunning plan and we get the best deal then the money being invested in preparations to date for no deal is a waste and if it's a crock then the preparations don't appear to be enough. Go figure.
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No politician so far has given any indication of being capable of carrying out bargaining or agreeable strategy. Add to this a lack of direction from the upper tier of government and it was never going to be easy. I suppose that you can also add that any civil servent involved in any way will be the one getting any blame rather than the MPs or Ministers.
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Does anyone have any idea what the strategy with negotiations with the EU is? we seem to be totally unprepared for the consequences of no-deal which are fairly obvious to most including the EU and yet at this late stage still playing the brinkmanship card.
Run it down to the wire. Tell your base that you are not going to cave in to unreasonable demands by the EU, they need us more than we need them, it will be their fault if there is no deal etc.
Then cave in at the last minute to all their demands, tell your base that this is what you wanted all along and what a fantastic deal it is you were able to negotiate and what a great country we are going to be by following all the laws we shall not be setting and we have too many fish to catch ourselves so its good the French can come and catch as many as they like.
Which is pretty much what happened in negotiating the Withdrawal Agreement.
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Wilts.
I think that's a fair prediction.
You missed out a key part of that strategy though, which is to agree to key aspects of the EU requirements and then deny to the UK public that you have done. Like, for example, the need for customs checks between GB and NI.
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Everyone, leaver or remainer, should be signing this if they believe in and want a sovereign state. It won’t change the result, but it should help protect our future voting processes from foreign interference – if indeed any such has happened, but we have a right to know.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/332293
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Thanks for the link Kato
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Remember johnson in Myanmar as acting foreign Secretary, Abbott has roughly the same amount of respect for culture and about the same amount of tact.
https://www.facebook.com/ehusic/photos/a.563951906974693/3322435441126312/?type=3&theater
Dear God up above.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1301406437458038784
"Mr Hancock, Benito Mussolini was a war-mongering Fascist. Why are you making him Commissioner for Railways?"
Hancock: "Err, well...err, I don't...err, well he made the trains run on time."
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Anyone who voted Tory in the last election should hang their heads in shame foisting this lot of incompetents on us!
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Remember johnson in Myanmar as acting foreign Secretary, Abbott has roughly the same amount of respect for culture and about the same amount of tact.
https://www.facebook.com/ehusic/photos/a.563951906974693/3322435441126312/?type=3&theater
Dear God up above.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KayBurley/status/1301406437458038784
"Mr Hancock, Benito Mussolini was a war-mongering Fascist. Why are you making him Commissioner for Railways?"
Hancock: "Err, well...err, I don't...err, well he made the trains run on time."
Yes but at least Mussolini DID make the trains run on time.
Abbotts proposal for a UK-EU deal would violate WTO rules!
https://twitter.com/CoppetainPU/status/1301433742368665600
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Anyone who voted Tory in the last election should hang their heads in shame foisting this lot of incompetents on us!
In your opinion.
I didn’t vote Tory by the way.
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At last some good news about how Brexit will help regenerate the economy.
Big contracts for tarmac layers and at least 29 lorry park attendents required:
https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/1301595671733178373
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Anyone who voted Tory in the last election should hang their heads in shame foisting this lot of incompetents on us!
In your opinion.
I didn’t vote Tory by the way.
Just curious, which of the current government, Sunak aside, looks vaguely competent to you?
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Anyone who voted Tory in the last election should hang their heads in shame foisting this lot of incompetents on us!
In your opinion.
I didn’t vote Tory by the way.
Just curious, which of the current government, Sunak aside, looks vaguely competent to you?
Sunak is only carrying out orders, remember his catch phrase, we will do whatever it takes for as long as it takes.
He’s about to throw thousands off the edge of a cliff ending furlough
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Anyone who voted Tory in the last election should hang their heads in shame foisting this lot of incompetents on us!
In your opinion.
I didn’t vote Tory by the way.
Just curious, which of the current government, Sunak aside, looks vaguely competent to you?
Sunak is only carrying out orders, remember his catch phrase, we will do whatever it takes for as long as it takes.
He’s about to throw thousands off the edge of a cliff ending furlough
Well I did say "looks"...
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Sunak did absolutely the right thing in March. That was good to see, but shouldn't have been a surprise. Finance Ministers the world over were doing similar.
The fact that we were all euphoric about it speaks volumes about Tory Chancellors' records on NOT doing the right thing in the past.
Government financial policy in and advanced capitalist economy should be very straightforward. You act as a balance to the private sector. When the private sector is booming, you increase taxes or cut Govt spending to stop the economy overheating and crashing. When the private sector is struggling, you increase Govt spending or slash taxes to keep the economy ticking over.
It really isn't rocket science.
But look at the track record of Tory Chancellors over the past half century.
1973 - Anthony Barber made massive increases in Govt spending in an already buoyant economy. Inflation exploded and we tipped into the crash of 1974-5.
1981 - Geoffrey Howe increased interest rates and slashed Govt spending in a recession, resulting in the most brutal economic collapse since the 1930s and 4 million on the dole.
1988 - Nigel Lawson gave massive tax cut giveaways in an already booming economy. Inflation took off and we collapsed into the 1990/91 recession.
2010 - George Osborne's insane Austerity after the Great Financial Crash throttled our recovery for 3 years and gave us the worst decade for increases in wages since the Napoleonic Wars.
All those cases are established economic facts, and you'll find very, very few serious economists who would say anything other than that they were disastrous mistakes, caused by going against the most fundamental economic principles. (There are one or two who still support the Howe and Osborne cuts, like Patrick Minford - his policy is that we should always cut Govt spending, and he's been perfectly frank in saying that would result in the "managed decline" (read "devastating collapse") of any industry that we have left. He was the driving force behind the economic experiment that Howe and Thatcher implemented in 1981, which fatally damaged British Industry and caused carnage in the economy for 18 months before the quietly binned it and kicked him out. He claims to this day they didn't cut hard enough, and given that the cuts they DID put through stuck 4 million on the dole, presumably he reckons that wasn't enough.)
The one and only Tory Chancellor to get it right in that 50 years was Ken Clarke in 1993, who reflated the stagnant economy in classic textbook economic fashion and got us sensibly growing (giving Blair a comfortable inheritance in 1997).
So yes, Sunak in March was a pleasant surprise. But his job has barely begun. The real test is how he gets the economy going again. We'll see about that, but him talking already about balancing the books ain't promising. You do not balance the books in a recession. You can't. You spend like hell and THEN balance the books when the private sector is booming.
PS: A bit of background here.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/budget_99/budget_briefing/279928.stm
Every one of the devastatingly bad decisions by British Chancellors in the 1900s was made by a Tory Chancellor, with the exception of 1931, when the Chancellor and PM were nominally in the Labour party, but in reality, were leading a Tory Govt.
Makes you think why it is that Labour are the ones who received wisdom tells us are no good on the economy...
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But if Sunak does spend like hell wont the Labour people start saying that the National Debt has soared and slate the Tories for allowing that to happen.
Also, if Sunak is only riding to orders as suggested by Filo, then surely the furlough scheme was ordered by Johnson.
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Hound.
We went through this in March.
I made a bet that no-one on the Labour side would criticise Sunak for massively increasing the debt because it was correct economics.
Have you heard anyone make that criticism on the Labour benches?
Compare and contrast with the shameful, shameless, wrong and deeply damaging line that the Tories took in 2009, screaming Deficit Deniers when Labour (correctly) ran huge deficits in response to the GFC.
I suspect your gut reaction will be that I'm playing politics. But I'm not. If that was my intention, why would I support what Sunak has done to date. Just stop and compare the two cases. In both cases the Chancellor did EXACTLY the textbook economic thing. In only one, the Opposition were a disgrace.
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Anyone who voted Tory in the last election should hang their heads in shame foisting this lot of incompetents on us!
In your opinion.
I didn’t vote Tory by the way.
Just curious, which of the current government, Sunak aside, looks vaguely competent to you?
About as many as there are in each of the other Parties.
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Hound.
We went through this in March.
I made a bet that no-one on the Labour side would criticise Sunak for massively increasing the debt because it was correct economics.
Have you heard anyone make that criticism on the Labour benches?
Compare and contrast with the shameful, shameless, wrong and deeply damaging line that the Tories took in 2009, screaming Deficit Deniers when Labour (correctly) ran huge deficits in response to the GFC.
I suspect your gut reaction will be that I'm playing politics. But I'm not. If that was my intention, why would I support what Sunak has done to date. Just stop and compare the two cases. In both cases the Chancellor did EXACTLY the textbook economic thing. In only one, the Opposition were a disgrace.
I will wait and see.
There is no doubt in my mind that somewhere down the line that someone from the Opposition will throw the spiralling ND back at the current government and blame them for it.
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Hound.
There IS a perfectly valid criticism to be levelled at the Tories on that score, and I do expect Labour to use it. But it's not the one you are suggesting.
Back in 2010, anyone who knew anything about economics knew that Osborne's plan to get the deficit under control through Austerity was bullshit.
He said he'd cut Govt spending and balance the books by 2015.
But economics doesn't work like that.
Deficits get large during recessions when Govt income (taxes) collapse but Govt spending (NHS, schools, defence etc) has to go on.
The way you correct that is by getting the economy firing again, so people and companies are making money and paying taxes.
If you cut Govt spending in a recession, as Osborne idiotically did with his Austerity, you depress the economy. So tax income stays low. And you can never cut hard enough to balance the books because every spending saving depresses the economy further and reduces tax income.
So if course, Osborne never got close to balancing the books by 2015. But Austerity continued. And he said he would balance the books by 2018.
He didn't and he was gone by then. Hammond replaced him and continued Austerity. And said he'd balance the books by 2020.
Which we didn't of course.
And now he's gone. And prior to COVID, the Treasury was saying we'd balance the books by 2025. Or maybe 2030 if we left the EU with no deal.
This has been spectacularly bad economic management. And it was all predicted in 2010.
So yes, we hit the COVID crisis with Govt finances far worse than they should have been. And it is perfectly valid to shout criticism on that issue.
But I will categorically guarantee that there'll be no policy from Labour to criticise the Tories for running up debt in order to protect the economy from COVID. Come back and re-visit this issue periodically. I suspect you'll have to question your "they're all as bad as each other" stance.
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How can YOU categorically guarantee that Labour won’t criticise the government about this in future?
Also, it always amazes me how you know so much more about how to run the economy that the Tory government.
Really impressive.
Oh, and I notice that you didn’t comment on whether Sunak took the decision himself to introduce the furlough scheme or whether he took instructions from Johnson.
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Why don't you point out something the tories have done which has been good for the country over the past 10-11 years hound, look on the bright side, give us something to build on?
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Hound.
From experience. I'm making a predicition and emphasising how sure I am about it. I'm leaving myself open to ridicule if I'm wrong, but I'm as sure as I can be about anything that I won't be. Like I said, come back in a year or two and see who is right. And if I am, will you please stop this "they are all as bad as each other" line?
As for my knowledge, I read widely on the history of economic thinking. I'm not an expert on economics, but I read those who are and that's what shapes my opinions. How do you come to your opinions?
You will not find a serious economist anywhere who thinks that the Barber Boom or the Lawson Boom were anything other than catastrophic misunderstandings of economics. There WERE a few prominent economists who gave intellectual underpinning to Austerity and Osborne used to quote them aggressively.
There was a vigorous debate in 2009/10 between the majority who believed in the standard model (that attempting to cut the deficit in a recession was dangerously wrong-headed) and a small but vocal few who reckoned they had found a new theory. The key ones there were Kenneth Rogoff and Carmen Reinhart at Harvard University, who studied the economic performance of countries with high debt. They claimed to have found clear evidence that countries whose debt-to-GDP ratio went above 90% had seriously weaker economic futures. Since our debt to GDP ratio was heading that way, Osborne took this as a green light to do what they really wanted to do anyway - cut Govt spending. He refused to listen to conventional economic opinion that doubted Rogoff and Reinhart's findings. Here he is approvingly quoting R&R in a speech just before the 2010 election, justifying Austerity.
https://conservative-speeches.sayit.mysociety.org/speech/601526
As Ken Rogoff himself puts it, "there's no question that the most significant vulnerability as we emerge from recession is the soaring government debt. It's very likely that will trigger the next crisis as governments have been stretched so wide."
The latest research suggests that once debt reaches more than about 90% of GDP the risks of a large negative impact on long term growth become highly significant.
...We are forecast to break through 90% of GDP in just two years time.
Osborne won the 2010 election with that line. And then instigated the most savage cuts in public spending since the early 1980s. NHS funding froze when it needed to be rising 3-4% a year to keep up with the ageing populaton. Shamefully, school spending was slashed. Most stupidly of all, Govt investment in capital expenditure on roads, rail, housing, IT etc was cut beyond the bone. And the economy flatlined. Real wages collapsed and have only just got back to pre-2008 levels. And that unleashed a the torrent of (justified) anger that we have seen build over the last decade, that Farage directed so skillfully in the wrong direction.
Anyway. Back to R&R. You know what happened next? (This would be beyond hilarious if the consequences were not so disastrous.) A year or two later, a young, unknown PhD student was trying to check R&R's findings and he couldn't get his numbers to match theirs. So he e-mailed R&R and asked if he could get access to their data and calculations. (Because that's how science works - if one person says X is true, it needs to checked by other people and confirmed.) R&R sent him their Excel spreadsheet. And when he looked at it, he says he could not believe her eyes and had to get several other people to double check it.
R&R had made an error in their spreadsheet. They'd not calculated the data correctly. They had taken an average of the economic performance of countries after having high debt, but they'd not included all the data in that average. They'd missed out several who had very GOOD economic performance. When the error was corrected, there WAS a relationship between debt and economic performance, but it was the other way round! Countries that had high debt had BETTER economic performance!
There was uproar in the economics profession. The ones who had spoken out against Austerity were utterly vindicated. No-one now serious talks about Austerity as a viable way out of debt.
So Osborne ditched Austerity, right?
What do you reckon?
PS: Don't trust my word. Here's a fuller account of the story. Utterly shameful, the damage that this did.
https://theconversation.com/the-reinhart-rogoff-error-or-how-not-to-excel-at-economics-13646
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Oh aye. And I haven't got a clue whether Sunak was directed by Johnson. I've not expressed any opinion on that so I've no idea why you are asking me.
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Looks like we've missed another rather important milestone....
https://twitter.com/i/events/1301551546510061570
Brexit - the gift that keeps giving! When will you leavers admit you got it wrong?
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Oh aye. And I haven't got a clue whether Sunak was directed by Johnson. I've not expressed any opinion on that so I've no idea why you are asking me.
I’m asking you because you haven’t expressed an opinion on it, if you had done I wouldn’t have asked.
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And yet more
lefties playing politics over Brexit
Sorry, my mistake...serious businesspeople tearing their hair out over the the Govt's handling of Brexit.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-54021421
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Oh aye. And I haven't got a clue whether Sunak was directed by Johnson. I've not expressed any opinion on that so I've no idea why you are asking me.
I’m asking you because you haven’t expressed an opinion on it, if you had done I wouldn’t have asked.
Right. So you ignore the substantive points about economics, question why I think I'm so clever, then ask me to comment on something I have zero interest in?
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Looks like we've missed another rather important milestone....
https://twitter.com/i/events/1301551546510061570
Brexit - the gift that keeps giving! When will you leavers admit you got it wrong?
Looks like they've passed their use by date?
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Oh aye. And I haven't got a clue whether Sunak was directed by Johnson. I've not expressed any opinion on that so I've no idea why you are asking me.
I’m asking you because you haven’t expressed an opinion on it, if you had done I wouldn’t have asked.
Right. So you ignore the substantive points about economics, question why I think I'm so clever, then ask me to comment on something I have zero interest in?
Not at all, I didn’t respond to your economics essay because I can’t argue against any of the points you made as you are always right (no pun there).
It just amazes me how much more you know that the Chancellors of the past.
Truly.
I asked you about the Sunak/Johnson thing because you always have a point of view on anything to do with politics, especially on the economics side of things.
I suspect though that Johnson probably did make the decision and asked Sunak to do the figures but that you are reluctant to give BJ any credit.
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Hound.
I'm not "reluctant to give Johnson credit". I have no idea and no way of knowing who took the decision. For what it's worth, given that Sunak has an economics background and Johnson has a notorious lack of interest in the detail of anything other than his career, if I were forced to guess I'd say it was Sunak who drove this, but I genuinely don't know.
Regarding the issue of knowing more than previous Chancellors, I'm not sure what to say. Other than that the four egregious mistakes I pointed out last night by Tory Chancellors over the past half century, were ALL called out AT THE TIME as mistakes by prominent economists. So the question is not whether I know more than Tory Chancellors, it's whether world renowned macroeconomists (who I read) know more than the Tory Chancellors. By the way, you too could read them. There's nowt special about me.
Who would you prefer to believe on economics? Eminent professors from Oxbridge who have spent their life studying the theory and history of macroeconomic policy? Or Osborne (failed journalist and Tory party worker before entering politics) Lawson (navy officer and journalist - now a hired hand by the petrochemical industry to scuttle round the world denying climate change), Howe (Army officer and QC) or Barber (Army officer and lawyer)?
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Billy, Kato and Syd at Hound, bloody worried about Glyn, where the hell is he.
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I don't get this love affair with Sunak, surely he is just the mouthpiece for all the civil servants at the Treasury. It's not like he comes up with all these ideas himself
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Sunak will abolish the Pension triple lock, because of Covid average earnings next year are predicted to rise by up to 25%, meaning that in April 2022 there is a potential 25% rise in the state pension, no way will a Tory Govt allow that, so they’ll abolish the triple lock, in reality it was n’t a triple lock at all was it
P.S. keeping the triple lock was a Tory manifesto pledge
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Sunak will abolish the Pension triple lock, because of Covid average earnings next year are predicted to rise by up to 25%, meaning that in April 2022 there is a potential 25% rise in the state pension, no way will a Tory Govt allow that, so they’ll abolish the triple lock, in reality it was n’t a triple lock at all was it
P.S. keeping the triple lock was a Tory manifesto pledge
Where has it been said that wages will rise by 25% Filo?
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Sunak will abolish the Pension triple lock, because of Covid average earnings next year are predicted to rise by up to 25%, meaning that in April 2022 there is a potential 25% rise in the state pension, no way will a Tory Govt allow that, so they’ll abolish the triple lock, in reality it was n’t a triple lock at all was it
P.S. keeping the triple lock was a Tory manifesto pledge
Where has it been said that wages will rise by 25% Filo?
https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/state-pension-triple-lock-sunak-pensions-manifesto-pledge-541947
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Anyone who voted Tory in the last election should hang their heads in shame foisting this lot of incompetents on us!
In your opinion.
I didn’t vote Tory by the way.
Just curious, which of the current government, Sunak aside, looks vaguely competent to you?
About as many as there are in each of the other Parties.
Perhaps, though they're not in Government are they? It doesn't really answer my question.
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Sunak will abolish the Pension triple lock, because of Covid average earnings next year are predicted to rise by up to 25%, meaning that in April 2022 there is a potential 25% rise in the state pension, no way will a Tory Govt allow that, so they’ll abolish the triple lock, in reality it was n’t a triple lock at all was it
P.S. keeping the triple lock was a Tory manifesto pledge
Where has it been said that wages will rise by 25% Filo?
https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/state-pension-triple-lock-sunak-pensions-manifesto-pledge-541947
An artificial increase though Filo.
Not everyone was furloughed either were they?
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Sunak will abolish the Pension triple lock, because of Covid average earnings next year are predicted to rise by up to 25%, meaning that in April 2022 there is a potential 25% rise in the state pension, no way will a Tory Govt allow that, so they’ll abolish the triple lock, in reality it was n’t a triple lock at all was it
P.S. keeping the triple lock was a Tory manifesto pledge
Where has it been said that wages will rise by 25% Filo?
https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/state-pension-triple-lock-sunak-pensions-manifesto-pledge-541947
It says 2.5%, not 25%.
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Sunak will abolish the Pension triple lock, because of Covid average earnings next year are predicted to rise by up to 25%, meaning that in April 2022 there is a potential 25% rise in the state pension, no way will a Tory Govt allow that, so they’ll abolish the triple lock, in reality it was n’t a triple lock at all was it
P.S. keeping the triple lock was a Tory manifesto pledge
Where has it been said that wages will rise by 25% Filo?
https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/state-pension-triple-lock-sunak-pensions-manifesto-pledge-541947
It says 2.5%, not 25%.
The article says “when employees return to work and start receiving their full pay again, average earnings will receive a sharp, albeit artificial, rise of 25%”.
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I don't get this love affair with Sunak, surely he is just the mouthpiece for all the civil servants at the Treasury. It's not like he comes up with all these ideas himself
In that case Raven, you'd surely have to say the same about all the good Labour Chancellors of the past, including Dennis Healey and Gordon Brown?
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Denis Healey, certainly.
It quite possible that there was something approaching a coup d'etat at the Treasury in 1976. There's that long-established idea that Labour bankrupted the country and had to go cap in hand to the IMF for a loan to bail us out.
What is rarely said in the media (I cannot begin to imagine why...) is that the numbers that the senior Treasury officials gave to Healey to convince him that Labour had spent up were wrong. The Govt's financial position was nowhere near as bad as it appeared. And we didn't actually need the IMF bail out - we never called on it, just went through the humiliation for Labour of having to go on our knees and ask for it.
And that humiliation has stuck. People still refer to Labour bankrupting the country in 1976.
Healey was convinced afterwards that the numbers were deliberately doctored by the Treasury officials to force Labour into cutting spending, and possibly to deliberately politically harm Labour in the eyes of the electorate.
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I read a while ago that Sunak is pretty hands on as Ministers go.
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Sunak will abolish the Pension triple lock, because of Covid average earnings next year are predicted to rise by up to 25%, meaning that in April 2022 there is a potential 25% rise in the state pension, no way will a Tory Govt allow that, so they’ll abolish the triple lock, in reality it was n’t a triple lock at all was it
P.S. keeping the triple lock was a Tory manifesto pledge
Where has it been said that wages will rise by 25% Filo?
https://inews.co.uk/news/uk/state-pension-triple-lock-sunak-pensions-manifesto-pledge-541947
An artificial increase though Filo.
Not everyone was furloughed either were they?
Artificial or not thats the figure they’ll use for the pension increase
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Possibly use.
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Possibly use.
You are arguing for arguings sake, the figure they will use if the triple lock is not abolished will be the rise in average earnings, whatever that may be, but it is currently forecast to be 25%
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Possibly use.
You are arguing for arguings sake, the figure they will use if the triple lock is not abolished will be the rise in average earnings, whatever that may be, but it is currently forecast to be 25%
No I am not Filo.
Sunak clearly says (according to the article anyway) that he can’t comment on future policy.
There is the possibility that given the very unusual circumstances that an adjustment could be made to balance out the very unusual circumstances.
Unless you can categorically guarantee that your suggestion will be used.
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Possibly use.
You are arguing for arguings sake, the figure they will use if the triple lock is not abolished will be the rise in average earnings, whatever that may be, but it is currently forecast to be 25%
No I am not Filo.
Sunak clearly says (according to the article anyway) that he can’t comment on future policy.
There is the possibility that given the very unusual circumstances that an adjustment could be made to balance out the very unusual circumstances.
Unless you can categorically guarantee that your suggestion will be used.
As it stands that is what will happen, if Sunak changes something they have gone against a manifesto pledge
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Possibly use.
You are arguing for arguings sake, the figure they will use if the triple lock is not abolished will be the rise in average earnings, whatever that may be, but it is currently forecast to be 25%
No I am not Filo.
Sunak clearly says (according to the article anyway) that he can’t comment on future policy.
There is the possibility that given the very unusual circumstances that an adjustment could be made to balance out the very unusual circumstances.
Unless you can categorically guarantee that your suggestion will be used.
As it stands that is what will happen, if Sunak changes something they have gone against a manifesto pledge
But you seem to be forgetting that we are in unusual and unprecedented times.
When the manifesto was made no one could have forecast where we are now.
I get the feeling that you are preparing to have a pop at the government if they do change from the manifesto promise on this.
Do you really think it would be unreasonable if they had to do so?
As you know by now, I am a pensioner and I would accept that it would be silly to raise the SP by 25% and I think that most others would agree.
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This by the way is both absolutely right and stunningly wrong.
https://amp.ft.com/content/61f4de96-5c4b-466e-b4a1-668245207035?__twitter_impression=true
Bang on right in that the Tories currently have no economic philosophy driving them. They are reacting to events, not driving them.
And stunningly wrong in that he's proposing that Sunak should cut spending, raise taxes and balance the books, which is absolutely the very worst thing a Chancellor could do with the economy in bits like it is now.
It's written by the man who was the economics adviser to Javid and Hammond when they were Chancellor.
But he has zero background in macroeconomics (the economics of the whole economy and country). He studied law then worked in the City of London, where macroeconomics is not important - just the economics of what makes finance companies rich.
Somebody asked earlier if Gordon Brown had been guided by advisers. And there's the point. He was. Ed Balls was the brains behind Brown's time in the Treasury. Balls studied macroeconomics at Oxford and Harvard, then taught it at Harvard before he joined the Govt. He was steeped in macroeconomics. And it's not a coincidence that, until the Great Financial Crash smashed economies all over the world,Britain had its longest spell of calm, steady growth since before WWI. And then led the world in responding to the GFC in textbook style by ignoring the deficit and spending heavily to keep the economy from going into a 1930s style depression.
But hey! Labour are shite on economics aren't they? And Balls was a laughing stock because he stammered and blinked a lot.
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And if the government are looking for a white knight abbott and johnson are mirror images.
''Brits, take it from an Aussie: If Tony Abbott is your solution, you've got big problems''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/sep/04/brits-aussie-tony-abbott-trade-envoy
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Tony Abbott, who has spent his whole political career opposing migrants taking jobs from locals, has migrated to the UK to take a job from a local. Nice.
As I say in another thread, its one rule for one, and one rule for another.
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Not sure which paper but I read the the person that should be employed is the one that 'sold' abbott to the government lol
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I don't get this love affair with Sunak, surely he is just the mouthpiece for all the civil servants at the Treasury. It's not like he comes up with all these ideas himself
In that case Raven, you'd surely have to say the same about all the good Labour Chancellors of the past, including Dennis Healey and Gordon Brown?
I say that about any Minister SS
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It doesn't usually work like that. If you have a minister who knows what policy they want to push, the civil servants are there to.implemrnt that policy.
They may well find 50 reasons why the Minister's policy is impossible to implement in practice, or illegal and they may well advise that the consequences of the Minister's policy may be dangerous or difficult to predict and they may therefore suggest that the Minister reconsiders. But as a rule, they are not there to determine policy. They are there to advise on the consequences and implement policy.
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So in a nutshell Sunak is a genius to come up with all the initiatives on his own?
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RR.
Not really. They are well established responses in economics. The key thing that all knowledgeable economists were saying to Govts in Feb/March was "borrow money and spend it to make sure that viable jobs don't get destroyed by a lockdown". Other countries were implementing similar policies.
The genius thing Sunak did compared to Tory Chancellors over the past 50 years was to apply textbook economics to the problem.
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Marcus Fysh is also now on the Board of Trade.
Here he was 2 years ago, demonstrating to the world that he knows the square root of f**k all about international trade.
https://mobile.twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1024207148014870529
He insisted that we will not impose tariffs on goods coming in from Europe
But.
If we are going onto WTO rules, we cannot have preferential deals with one country or bloc, without offering them to every country.
So.
If we don't sign a deal in the next 3 months and we drop onto WTO rules, Fysh is saying implicitly, that we will not impose tariffs on ANY imports from anywhere in the world.
Which basically destroys most of what is left of British industry.
And he's now on the Board of Trade!
I'm assuming the alarm clock is going to go off shortly and wake us all up from this surreal nightmare?
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If you trawl back months I predicted on here the London money men would be the main players when they were being threatened by the EU and would hit back hard, and if I remember got poo pooed.
I know it would be hard for a lot of people on here, but if you look at the headlines in the Express, Who is threatening who now?
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Why don't you post a link so we can see what you are talking about?
All I can see on the Express front page is Bill Oddie Dying and the standard stories churned out once a week about Diane Abbott and about a deadly heatwave.
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Keep reading the interesting stuff about Bill Oddie and that other hero of yours the ultimate female buffoon.
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If you trawl back months I predicted on here the London money men would be the main players when they were being threatened by the EU and would hit back hard, and if I remember got poo pooed.
I know it would be hard for a lot of people on here, but if you look at the headlines in the Express, Who is threatening who now?
this is nonsense selby, all thats happening is Frost is threatening to stab himself in the balls if the EU doesn't jump to attention.
And unlike yourself almost everyone predicted it.
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So. No link Selby?
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Has Sydney got a link to where everyone predicted it.
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Still waiting for you to post something good about the tories from the previous 10-11 years hound.
Added.
And you don't read links so what's the point :)
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Well they kept Corbyn out of number ten.
Oh, and I read some links as I have said many times previously.
Added: Maybe you don’t read my posts properly. :)
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Anyone know if it says in the Express why Boris' 'oven ready deal' isn't errr, ready?
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No money for the gas?😉
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Australian Channel 9 tv on Abbott being appointed as a UK trade advisor:
'beggars can't be choosers'
https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1302583276629037059
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Dominic Raab today:
'Why on earth would the EU want different terms with us than they have previously agreed with other countries that are less important economically and further away?"
Not the sharpest knife in the box, Mr Raab is he?
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If you trawl back months I predicted on here the London money men would be the main players when they were being threatened by the EU and would hit back hard, and if I remember got poo pooed.
I know it would be hard for a lot of people on here, but if you look at the headlines in the Express, Who is threatening who now?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgO9tbS3w2w
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Interesting Glyn, he puts it all together.
It reinforces the thinking that frost/johnson are dealing with the negotiations in a piecemeal fashion.
What do you think selby?
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The bluster of both sides will go on down to the wire Syd, then there will be an agreement, if not I am not bothered at all, for anyone with money there will be an opportunity to make some more no matter how it goes.
The big change will be in home workers and at the moment that is fine being new and suits some people who have never done it before and hope to continue that way of working, but as soon as companies realise that remote working in let's say Mexborough is being done on X salary a year, can be done in Turkey just as well for a cheaper Y salary a year in a couple of years time will start to become a problem, and will rise up to top management.
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Home working has f**k all to do with a trade deal with the EU. This is the bluster coming from you, I presume.
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The bluster of both sides will go on down to the wire Syd, then there will be an agreement, if not I am not bothered at all, for anyone with money there will be an opportunity to make some more no matter how it goes.
The big change will be in home workers and at the moment that is fine being new and suits some people who have never done it before and hope to continue that way of working, but as soon as companies realise that remote working in let's say Mexborough is being done on X salary a year, can be done in Turkey just as well for a cheaper Y salary a year in a couple of years time will start to become a problem, and will rise up to top management.
That's been happening for years already. A friend of mine runs the New York office of a huge international engineering design consultancy. They've been farming out design work to the London and Manchester offices for years because we are miles cheaper than the New York rates, because of the Pound having collapsed in value.
On one hand, that's useful export income for the UK. But it's not really a sensible long-term national business plan. It means that we become second-raters. The handle-turners. No-one with serious ambition stays doing that. I've seen the hourly rates in NY and London and the difference is truly astounding. The NY office staff gently rip the piss out of the London office, calling it "our developing world branch". So British staff with ability and ambition do what my old mate has done - move to the offices in the States or elsewhere, where they can be the decision makers, not the low-paid lackeys.
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Glyn, I answered your question you look ahead you might make some real money.
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Glyn, I answered your question you look ahead you might make some real money.
F**k me, you're so useless you don't even realise I didn't ask you anything.
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Glyn, when you are busy filling forms in for lorries on the dock side in January, you will be too busy to make a lot of money.
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Glyn, when you are busy filling forms in for lorries on the dock side in January, you will be too busy to make a lot of money.
f**k me again, you're even more useless.
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The bluster of both sides will go on down to the wire Syd, then there will be an agreement, if not I am not bothered at all, for anyone with money there will be an opportunity to make some more no matter how it goes.
The big change will be in home workers and at the moment that is fine being new and suits some people who have never done it before and hope to continue that way of working, but as soon as companies realise that remote working in let's say Mexborough is being done on X salary a year, can be done in Turkey just as well for a cheaper Y salary a year in a couple of years time will start to become a problem, and will rise up to top management.
Pretty wide ranging sweep selby there's going to be an agreement ...... or not? farming out jobs o/s as bst has said has been going on for years, call centres etc, a lots of reps have been working from home.
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https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-resignation/head-of-uk-governments-legal-department-quits-over-brexit-deal-threat-ft-idUKKBN25Z1GT
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Oh dear. It’s not as if this government has integrity to spare and can afford to lose people like this.
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https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-resignation/head-of-uk-governments-legal-department-quits-over-brexit-deal-threat-ft-idUKKBN25Z1GT
He's leaving after a clash with Boris Johnson's "office".
Which, of course, means "Dominic Cummings".
He's doing it. Right in front of everyone's eyes. Ripping out the guts of the Civil Service, just like he said he would in his blog rants. He's eviscerating all the checks and balances and concentrating all the power in No10. So that he, Cummings, can run the country in the way he wants.
I've been saying for years that he was a barely sane, power-hungry megalomaniac. And now we are letting him have effectively unfettered power to do what the f**k he wants.
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This is what you've given us Leave/Tory voters....
https://twitter.com/AdamJSchwarz/status/1303307680329740288
What a signal to send to any future partners - agreements you made with the us we will aim to get out of less than a year after signing...
Hope you're proud of yourselves!
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To be fair I don't think that the majority of leave voters expected or wanted a no deal Brexit. When is anything ever settled to a reasonable outcome without negotiation?
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To be fair I don't think that the majority of leave voters expected or wanted a no deal Brexit. When is anything ever settled to a reasonable outcome without negotiation?
Ah, but so many of them kept on telling us they knew what they were voting for when us 'remoaners' challenged them. I wonder how many of those who said that still believe it? I also wonder how many of the Brexit Luvie Duvies continue to believe all the lies they are fed by this government and the right wing media?
A friend of mine received the following in an email from Johnson himself
Friend,
We are now entering the final phase of our negotiations with the EU.
The EU have been very clear about the timetable. I am too.
There needs to be an agreement with our European friends by the time of the European Council on 15 October.
If we can’t agree by then, then I do not see that there will be a free trade agreement between us, and we should both accept that and move on.
We’ll then have a trading arrangement with the EU like Australia’s.
I want to be absolutely clear that, as we have said right from the start, that would be a good outcome for the UK.
As a Government we’re preparing, at our borders and at our ports, to be ready for it.
We will have full control over our laws, our rules, and our fishing waters.
We will have the freedom to do trade deals with every country in the world. And we will prosper mightily as a result.
We will of course always be ready to talk to our EU friends even in these circumstances. Our door will never be closed and we will trade as friends and partners – but without a free trade agreement.
There is still an agreement to be had and we will continue to work hard in September to achieve it.
It is one based on our reasonable proposal for a standard free trade agreement like the one the EU has agreed with Canada and so many others.
Even at this late stage, if the EU are ready to rethink their current positions and agree this I will be delighted.
But we cannot and will not compromise on the fundamentals of what it means to be an independent country to get it.
That Friend is the pledge I make to you. If you stand with me, I hope you’ll join our Party today, so we have the backing we need during this crucial phase of our negotiations >>
I wonder how many leavers can spot the contradiction in what Johnson posted above?
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Err...
https://twitter.com/AdamJSchwarz/status/1303307680329740288?s=20
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Absolute shit show. What a bunch of f**king spivs. Who the hell is ever going to trust the word of the British Govt again?
And step back and consider the past 36 hours.
Sunday night. No10 (Cummings) briefs the Press that we are going to break the WA.
Monday PM. Govt says it will not be breaking the WA.
Tues am. Govt's legal adviser quits over WA issue after clashing with No10.
Tues pm. Govt announces it WILL break the WA.
Fill in the connecting pieces. It's really not hard to do.
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Those of you who insist that all the politicians are as bad as each other.
Look at this shower of shite governing (sic) us. And compare it to this.
https://mobile.twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1303304798968721408
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This is what you've given us Leave/Tory voters....
https://twitter.com/AdamJSchwarz/status/1303307680329740288
What a signal to send to any future partners - agreements you made with the us we will aim to get out of less than a year after signing...
Hope you're proud of yourselves!
Just out of interest NNK, what about the Labour/Leave voters.
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Breaking international law, so can Spain march into Gibraltar in a very specific and limited way?
-
This is what you've given us Leave/Tory voters....
https://twitter.com/AdamJSchwarz/status/1303307680329740288
What a signal to send to any future partners - agreements you made with the us we will aim to get out of less than a year after signing...
Hope you're proud of yourselves!
Just out of interest NNK, what about the Labour/Leave voters.
The comment was aimed a both those who voted leave, (irrespective of party), AND those who voted Tory to get, in the governments words, "Brexit Done; hence the /.
The shit situation we are in now - and likely will be even worse going forward, especially if it's No Deal - is all down to those two votes. I just hope that people who voted that way have the guts to own the upcoming shitstorm and not try to pass the buck to anyone and anything but themselves!
Now, can you see the contradiction in Johnson's email hound?
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And you leavers shouldn't be pinning your hopes on a US trade deal either....
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-trade-deal-boris-johnson-us-trump-eu-b413813.html
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This is what you've given us Leave/Tory voters....
https://twitter.com/AdamJSchwarz/status/1303307680329740288
What a signal to send to any future partners - agreements you made with the us we will aim to get out of less than a year after signing...
Hope you're proud of yourselves!
Just out of interest NNK, what about the Labour/Leave voters.
The comment was aimed a both those who voted leave, (irrespective of party), AND those who voted Tory to get, in the governments words, "Brexit Done; hence the /.
The shit situation we are in now - and likely will be even worse going forward, especially if it's No Deal - is all down to those two votes. I just hope that people who voted that way have the guts to own the upcoming shitstorm and not try to pass the buck to anyone and anything but themselves!
Now, can you see the contradiction in Johnson's email hound?
Did you own the shitstorm of the Iraq War after voting for Tony Blair?
-
This is what you've given us Leave/Tory voters....
https://twitter.com/AdamJSchwarz/status/1303307680329740288
What a signal to send to any future partners - agreements you made with the us we will aim to get out of less than a year after signing...
Hope you're proud of yourselves!
Just out of interest NNK, what about the Labour/Leave voters.
The comment was aimed a both those who voted leave, (irrespective of party), AND those who voted Tory to get, in the governments words, "Brexit Done; hence the /.
The shit situation we are in now - and likely will be even worse going forward, especially if it's No Deal - is all down to those two votes. I just hope that people who voted that way have the guts to own the upcoming shitstorm and not try to pass the buck to anyone and anything but themselves!
Now, can you see the contradiction in Johnson's email hound?
Did you own the shitstorm of the Iraq War after voting for Tony Blair?
As it happens, I didn't vote for Tony Blair, nor did I vote for Brexit. Did you?
-
This is what you've given us Leave/Tory voters....
https://twitter.com/AdamJSchwarz/status/1303307680329740288
What a signal to send to any future partners - agreements you made with the us we will aim to get out of less than a year after signing...
Hope you're proud of yourselves!
Just out of interest NNK, what about the Labour/Leave voters.
The comment was aimed a both those who voted leave, (irrespective of party), AND those who voted Tory to get, in the governments words, "Brexit Done; hence the /.
The shit situation we are in now - and likely will be even worse going forward, especially if it's No Deal - is all down to those two votes. I just hope that people who voted that way have the guts to own the upcoming shitstorm and not try to pass the buck to anyone and anything but themselves!
Now, can you see the contradiction in Johnson's email hound?
Did you own the shitstorm of the Iraq War after voting for Tony Blair?
Anyone in 2001, who voted for Labour knowing that we'd be taken to war was smarter than Nostradamus at fortune telling.
On the other hand, anyone who DIDN'T know what this shit shower would do when voted in needs locking up for their own safety.
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Stop moralising Kato about ripping up agreements, the Germans have been ace at it in the past ask Russia and Chamberlain, them two agreements went wrong big time.
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Stop moralising Kato about ripping up agreements, the Germans have been acee at it in the past ask Russia and Chamberlain, them two agreements went wrong big time.
Always funny when someone has to go back 70+ years and then compare our government with the Nazis.
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It is always funny when someone wants to forget what they don't want to know Donny.
And Filo why would a bankrupt country like Spain want Gibraltar after all these years, it isn't as if they are going to have as many fishing vessels to park up after December.
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Selby, I think that Spain will always want Gibraltar back. Imagine if the yanks had Lands End, wouldn't we want it back as a matter of pride if nothing else?
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Looks like the Greeks really have some trouble ahead with Turkey then. Do you think Russia will want Alaska back then? now that could cause a bit of a tiff.
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Donny, are you in agreement with pulling down the statues supposed to honour people who were slave traders? it was a long time ago, it makes you wonder why anybody is bothered, when the second world war that you dismiss was so recent.
-
Stop moralising Kato about ripping up agreements, the Germans have been ace at it in the past ask Russia and Chamberlain, them two agreements went wrong big time.
Let's forget what Britain did about Suez in between then and now, though, eh?
-
It is always funny when someone wants to forget what they don't want to know Donny.
And Filo why would a bankrupt country like Spain want Gibraltar after all these years, it isn't as if they are going to have as many fishing vessels to park up after December.
You'll be on about Ireland wanting Northern Ireland back 'just because they want it' next.
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Looks like the Greeks really have some trouble ahead with Turkey then. Do you think Russia will want Alaska back then? now that could cause a bit of a tiff.
Does it? Where and why?
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Stop moralising Kato about ripping up agreements, the Germans have been ace at it in the past ask Russia and Chamberlain, them two agreements went wrong big time.
Have you really compared what Cummings and Johnson have done to Nazi Germany and Stalin's Russia!!!!
Far be it from me to say you are wrong but still...
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Stop moralising Kato about ripping up agreements, the Germans have been ace at it in the past ask Russia and Chamberlain, them two agreements went wrong big time.
I'm not moralising selby, simply stating the facts - neither more, nor less.
Here are a few more facts for you, what would ‘trading on WTO terms’ mean for the UK?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean-Long-Guide.pdf
I'm guessing you won't read it though, and I suspect people like Herbert and Hound won't read it either. Why are people like you so afraid of the truth?
-
Stop moralising Kato about ripping up agreements, the Germans have been ace at it in the past ask Russia and Chamberlain, them two agreements went wrong big time.
I'm not moralising selby, simply stating the facts - neither more, nor less.
Here are a few more facts for you, what would ‘trading on WTO terms’ mean for the UK?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean-Long-Guide.pdf
I'm guessing you won't read it though, and I suspect people like Herbert and Hound won't read it either. Why are people like you so afraid of the truth?
Why are you referring to me NNK?
-
Stop moralising Kato about ripping up agreements, the Germans have been ace at it in the past ask Russia and Chamberlain, them two agreements went wrong big time.
I'm not moralising selby, simply stating the facts - neither more, nor less.
Here are a few more facts for you, what would ‘trading on WTO terms’ mean for the UK?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean-Long-Guide.pdf
I'm guessing you won't read it though, and I suspect people like Herbert and Hound won't read it either. Why are people like you so afraid of the truth?
Why are you referring to me NNK?
I’m not so sure why he has said that I am afraid of the truth either.
-
This is what you've given us Leave/Tory voters....
https://twitter.com/AdamJSchwarz/status/1303307680329740288
What a signal to send to any future partners - agreements you made with the us we will aim to get out of less than a year after signing...
Hope you're proud of yourselves!
Caveat emptor!
-
This is what you've given us Leave/Tory voters....
https://twitter.com/AdamJSchwarz/status/1303307680329740288
What a signal to send to any future partners - agreements you made with the us we will aim to get out of less than a year after signing...
Hope you're proud of yourselves!
NNK
I’m assuming that you also showed similar outrage when the EU broke the law by breaching it’s own treaties? Or is it only when the pesky Britishers do it?
-
Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
-
Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
-
Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
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The UK government claims the precedent that parliament is most sovereign was set. Absolutely crazy trolling from them by using the Gina Miller case, but it may well be true.
Legal or not, it doesn't really matter. It makes them.untrustworthy doesn't it?
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The UK government claims the precedent that parliament is most sovereign was set. Absolutely crazy trolling from them by using the Gina Miller case, but it may well be true.
Legal or not, it doesn't really matter. It makes them.untrustworthy doesn't it?
Yes it does
-
Herbert, the fastest growing economy and powerful country in the World is hardly suffering from the fact they are untrustworthy buddy, or perhaps you would trust them.
-
Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
No mention of breaking a treaty in that. Try again?
-
Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
No mention of breaking a treaty in that. Try again?
I wouldn’t have thought it’d need to explicit mention it
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It's all starting to kick-off then.
EU gives Johnson three weeks to change his Bill to break the WA
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/10/fears-grow-that-uk-is-preparing-to-quit-brexit-talks
No way is he going to do that.
Which means there will be a big Tory rebellion in the House of Lords against it:
https://twitter.com/Andrew_Adonis/status/1304045449385578496
and what will the consequences of that be for the Tory Party? Is he going to kick them all out and split his party?
-
Agreed Wilts. I’ve no idea how he’s going to manage this. The Lords won’t accept it (many of his own MP’s aren’t either) and will almost certainly push back. Yet again he’s in a terrible mess brought on by his own Governments incompetence.
-
Howard is an arch Brexiteer as well. Not sure why the law would be a remain/leave argument, but then this is 2020.
-
Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
No mention of breaking a treaty in that. Try again?
I wouldn’t have thought it’d need to explicit mention it
You do. All I can see is a change of policy. No broken treaty anywhere.
-
Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
No mention of breaking a treaty in that. Try again?
I wouldn’t have thought it’d need to explicit mention it
You do. All I can see is a change of policy. No broken treaty anywhere.
No need to highlight any words Glyn. I can read it perfectly without thanks.
It’s not a change in policy. The policy hadn’t changed. The EU just chose to ignore their own policy in this instance.
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We all knew this was going to be the end result from the day Boris took over. A tiny majority voted for Brexit yet we've got the most extreme outcome as the result. Definitely how you bring a country back together...
-
Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
No mention of breaking a treaty in that. Try again?
I wouldn’t have thought it’d need to explicit mention it
You do. All I can see is a change of policy. No broken treaty anywhere.
No need to highlight any words Glyn. I can read it perfectly without thanks.
It’s not a change in policy. The policy hadn’t changed. The EU just chose to ignore their own policy in this instance.
So you agree it was policy and not a treaty. Good. Now we've got past that, how about a genuine example of the EU breaking a treaty?
-
Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
So, nothing to do with breaking treaties then?
-
Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
No mention of breaking a treaty in that. Try again?
I wouldn’t have thought it’d need to explicit mention it
You do. All I can see is a change of policy. No broken treaty anywhere.
No need to highlight any words Glyn. I can read it perfectly without thanks.
It’s not a change in policy. The policy hadn’t changed. The EU just chose to ignore their own policy in this instance.
So you agree it was policy and not a treaty. Good. Now we've got past that, how about a genuine example of the EU breaking a treaty?
Smoke and mirrors Glyn. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty that was written and agreed upon by the EU...That they decided shouldn’t apply to France in this instance. But of course you knew that didn’t you.
So, is it ok for the EU to break their own rules/laws by changing elements of their own treaties to suit their needs? Did you shout foul play when they broke this treaty to accommodate French overspend? Or doesn’t it fit your rose tinted view of the EU and you only have a fit when the UK do it?
-
Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
So, nothing to do with breaking treaties then?
Yes it is to do with a treaty. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty signed and agreed by the EU.
-
Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
So, nothing to do with breaking treaties then?
Yes it is to do with a treaty. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty signed and agreed by the EU.
Which treaty is that then? And what clause has been broken? I'm asking because I'm getting the distinct impression you have no idea what a treaty is.
-
Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
So, nothing to do with breaking treaties then?
Yes it is to do with a treaty. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty signed and agreed by the EU.
Which treaty is that then? And what clause has been broken? I'm asking because I'm getting the distinct impression you have no idea what a treaty is.
Happy to help you understand what a treaty is Glyn. You only need to ask.
It's the Excessive Deficit Procedure which is governed by the Article 126 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. The clause? I've no idea....but then again I'm sure you don't know either.
Now, about the question that you've avoided answering. Do you also call foul play when the EU break the rules within their own treaties (as with the French example) or is it only when the UK does it?
-
Stop moralising Kato about ripping up agreements, the Germans have been ace at it in the past ask Russia and Chamberlain, them two agreements went wrong big time.
I'm not moralising selby, simply stating the facts - neither more, nor less.
Here are a few more facts for you, what would ‘trading on WTO terms’ mean for the UK?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean-Long-Guide.pdf
I'm guessing you won't read it though, and I suspect people like Herbert and Hound won't read it either. Why are people like you so afraid of the truth?
Why are you referring to me NNK?
I answered your question earlier in the thread, I then asked you one which you deigned not to answer. From your lack of an answer I made the reasonable assumption that a) you voted Leave and b) you voted Tory at the last election - correct me if I'm wrong. It has been show on numerous occasions, both here and elsewhere, that Leavers find it very hard to accept the truth so often simply ignore it when it doesn't fit their chosen agenda.
By the way, did you read the article I linked to?
-
Stop moralising Kato about ripping up agreements, the Germans have been ace at it in the past ask Russia and Chamberlain, them two agreements went wrong big time.
I'm not moralising selby, simply stating the facts - neither more, nor less.
Here are a few more facts for you, what would ‘trading on WTO terms’ mean for the UK?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean-Long-Guide.pdf
I'm guessing you won't read it though, and I suspect people like Herbert and Hound won't read it either. Why are people like you so afraid of the truth?
Why are you referring to me NNK?
I’m not so sure why he has said that I am afraid of the truth either.
Quite simple Hound; you have said on a number of occasions that you choose not to read some articles that are posted on here.
Oh, by the way, did you read the article I linked to?
-
Stop moralising Kato about ripping up agreements, the Germans have been ace at it in the past ask Russia and Chamberlain, them two agreements went wrong big time.
I'm not moralising selby, simply stating the facts - neither more, nor less.
Here are a few more facts for you, what would ‘trading on WTO terms’ mean for the UK?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean-Long-Guide.pdf
I'm guessing you won't read it though, and I suspect people like Herbert and Hound won't read it either. Why are people like you so afraid of the truth?
Why are you referring to me NNK?
I answered your question earlier in the thread, I then asked you one which you deigned not to answer. From your lack of an answer I made the reasonable assumption that a) you voted Leave and b) you voted Tory at the last election - correct me if I'm wrong. It has been show on numerous occasions, both here and elsewhere, that Leavers find it very hard to accept the truth so often simply ignore it when it doesn't fit their chosen agenda.
By the way, did you read the article I linked to?
Sorry NNK - I don't know what question you mean? Please feel free to ask me again. BTW, yes you are wrong. I did vote leave but voted Labour at the election. I guess you're falling into the trap of assuming that all leave voters are rabid right wingers? As I have told you (and others on numerous occasions) before on a previous thread, I am a Socialist and always will be. I did read the article and I agree with a fair bit of it. I would much prefer the UK to leave with a deal. Is that clear?
Now, about the question I've asked you earlier. Do you also criticise the EU when it breaks rules within its own treaties or do you save that for when the UK does it?
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Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
So, nothing to do with breaking treaties then?
Yes it is to do with a treaty. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty signed and agreed by the EU.
Which treaty is that then? And what clause has been broken? I'm asking because I'm getting the distinct impression you have no idea what a treaty is.
Happy to help you understand what a treaty is Glyn. You only need to ask.
It's the Excessive Deficit Procedure which is governed by the Article 126 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. The clause? I've no idea....but then again I'm sure you don't know either.
Now, about the question that you've avoided answering. Do you also call foul play when the EU break the rules within their own treaties (as with the French example) or is it only when the UK does it?
It is impossible for the EU to break the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU - because the EU is not a signature to the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. This is a Treaty on the formation and functions of the EU as agreed by its member states. Only they can break it.
If you wish to argue that France 'broke' their obligations then fair enough. It is up to the other member states to take action. This is a Treaty between states to form the EU. Not between the EU and those states.
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Stop moralising Kato about ripping up agreements, the Germans have been ace at it in the past ask Russia and Chamberlain, them two agreements went wrong big time.
I'm not moralising selby, simply stating the facts - neither more, nor less.
Here are a few more facts for you, what would ‘trading on WTO terms’ mean for the UK?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean-Long-Guide.pdf
I'm guessing you won't read it though, and I suspect people like Herbert and Hound won't read it either. Why are people like you so afraid of the truth?
Why are you referring to me NNK?
I answered your question earlier in the thread, I then asked you one which you deigned not to answer. From your lack of an answer I made the reasonable assumption that a) you voted Leave and b) you voted Tory at the last election - correct me if I'm wrong. It has been show on numerous occasions, both here and elsewhere, that Leavers find it very hard to accept the truth so often simply ignore it when it doesn't fit their chosen agenda.
By the way, did you read the article I linked to?
Sorry NNK - I don't know what question you mean? Please feel free to ask me again. BTW, yes you are wrong. I did vote leave but voted Labour at the election. I guess you're falling into the trap of assuming that all leave voters are rabid right wingers? As I have told you (and others on numerous occasions) before on a previous thread, I am a Socialist and always will be. I did read the article and I agree with a fair bit of it. I would much prefer the UK to leave with a deal. Is that clear?
Now, about the question I've asked you earlier. Do you also criticise the EU when it breaks rules within its own treaties or do you save that for when the UK does it?
Thank you for the clarification Herbert and your post answers the question I asked earlier in the thread.
I will always criticise any party which breaks a treaty or an agreement, and I see you referred to the Treaty on European Union and the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union, of which you will find the consolidated version here....
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:12012E/TXT
From that consolidated treaty here is the relevant section relating to government deficits....
(ex Article 104 TEC)
1. Member States shall avoid excessive government deficits.
2. The Commission shall monitor the development of the budgetary situation and of the stock of government debt in the Member States with a view to identifying gross errors. In particular it shall examine compliance with budgetary discipline on the basis of the following two criteria:
(a) whether the ratio of the planned or actual government deficit to gross domestic product exceeds a reference value, unless:
- either the ratio has declined substantially and continuously and reached a level that comes close to the reference value,
- or, alternatively, the excess over the reference value is only exceptional and temporary and the ratio remains close to the reference value;
(b) whether the ratio of government debt to gross domestic product exceeds a reference value, unless the ratio is sufficiently diminishing and approaching the reference value at a satisfactory pace.
The reference values are specified in the Protocol on the excessive deficit procedure annexed to the Treaties.
3. If a Member State does not fulfil the requirements under one or both of these criteria, the Commission shall prepare a report. The report of the Commission shall also take into account whether the government deficit exceeds government investment expenditure and take into account all other relevant factors, including the medium-term economic and budgetary position of the Member State.
The Commission may also prepare a report if, notwithstanding the fulfilment of the requirements under the criteria, it is of the opinion that there is a risk of an excessive deficit in a Member State.
4. The Economic and Financial Committee shall formulate an opinion on the report of the Commission.
5. If the Commission considers that an excessive deficit in a Member State exists or may occur, it shall address an opinion to the Member State concerned and shall inform the Council accordingly.
6. The Council shall, on a proposal from the Commission, and having considered any observations which the Member State concerned may wish to make, decide after an overall assessment whether an excessive deficit exists.
7. Where the Council decides, in accordance with paragraph 6, that an excessive deficit exists, it shall adopt, without undue delay, on a recommendation from the Commission, recommendations addressed to the Member State concerned with a view to bringing that situation to an end within a given period. Subject to the provisions of paragraph 8, these recommendations shall not be made public.
8. Where it establishes that there has been no effective action in response to its recommendations within the period laid down, the Council may make its recommendations public.
9. If a Member State persists in failing to put into practice the recommendations of the Council, the Council may decide to give notice to the Member State to take, within a specified time limit, measures for the deficit reduction which is judged necessary by the Council in order to remedy the situation.
In such a case, the Council may request the Member State concerned to submit reports in accordance with a specific timetable in order to examine the adjustment efforts of that Member State.
10. The rights to bring actions provided for in Articles 258 and 259 may not be exercised within the framework of paragraphs 1 to 9 of this Article.
11. As long as a Member State fails to comply with a decision taken in accordance with paragraph 9, the Council may decide to apply or, as the case may be, intensify one or more of the following measures:
- to require the Member State concerned to publish additional information, to be specified by the Council, before issuing bonds and securities,
- to invite the European Investment Bank to reconsider its lending policy towards the Member State concerned,
- to require the Member State concerned to make a non-interest-bearing deposit of an appropriate size with the Union until the excessive deficit has, in the view of the Council, been corrected,
- to impose fines of an appropriate size.
The President of the Council shall inform the European Parliament of the decisions taken.
12. The Council shall abrogate some or all of its decisions or recommendations referred to in paragraphs 6 to 9 and 11 to the extent that the excessive deficit in the Member State concerned has, in the view of the Council, been corrected. If the Council has previously made public recommendations, it shall, as soon as the decision under paragraph 8 has been abrogated, make a public statement that an excessive deficit in the Member State concerned no longer exists.
13. When taking the decisions or recommendations referred to in paragraphs 8, 9, 11 and 12, the Council shall act on a recommendation from the Commission.
When the Council adopts the measures referred to in paragraphs 6 to 9, 11 and 12, it shall act without taking into account the vote of the member of the Council representing the Member State concerned.
A qualified majority of the other members of the Council shall be defined in accordance with Article 238(3)(a).
14. Further provisions relating to the implementation of the procedure described in this Article are set out in the Protocol on the excessive deficit procedure annexed to the Treaties.
The Council shall, acting unanimously in accordance with a special legislative procedure and after consulting the European Parliament and the European Central Bank, adopt the appropriate provisions which shall then replace the said Protocol.
Subject to the other provisions of this paragraph, the Council shall, on a proposal from the Commission and after consulting the European Parliament, lay down detailed rules and definitions for the application of the provisions of the said Protocol.
From the above it is quite clear that there is a defined flexibility within the treaty to address any deficiency, (see particularly paragraphs 6 and 7); and, without further reading of the subsequent 'Protocol', it seems to me that the EU acted fully within the scope of the treaty and its powers in relation to France and that the article you refer to was plainly wrong.
As such, there does not appear to be any breaking of the treaty.
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Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
So, nothing to do with breaking treaties then?
Yes it is to do with a treaty. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty signed and agreed by the EU.
Which treaty is that then? And what clause has been broken? I'm asking because I'm getting the distinct impression you have no idea what a treaty is.
Happy to help you understand what a treaty is Glyn. You only need to ask.
It's the Excessive Deficit Procedure which is governed by the Article 126 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. The clause? I've no idea....but then again I'm sure you don't know either.
Now, about the question that you've avoided answering. Do you also call foul play when the EU break the rules within their own treaties (as with the French example) or is it only when the UK does it?
It is impossible for the EU to break the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU - because the EU is not a signature to the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. This is a Treaty on the formation and functions of the EU as agreed by its member states. Only they can break it.
If you wish to argue that France 'broke' their obligations then fair enough. It is up to the other member states to take action. This is a Treaty between states to form the EU. Not between the EU and those states.
Wilts
It is the responsibility of the Council to impose ‘punishment’ on member states that don’t adhere to treaty obligations not the other member states. In the French example it was the Council who made the decision to overlook the overspend. The signatories of the treaty didn’t choose to vary the agreement. There was no ratification of any treaty changes. Quite simply the Council made the decision to override the treaty. Yet, from what I can see, there was very little complaint about it.
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For those that enjoy the full use of the English language https://twitter.com/brianmoore666/status/1304159851522732033?s=19
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So if ministers can break international law and stay within the ministerial and the civil service codes then those codes are not worth a bobbin?
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For those that enjoy the full use of the English language https://twitter.com/brianmoore666/status/1304159851522732033?s=19
Wow, that’s some dissection of the statement. As someone commented, it’s almost as if it was written for Yes Minister!
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Quite unreal developments today.
Politicians as committed to the Brexit Project and as far to the Right as Michael Howard and Norman Lamont have gone public to slam down this proposal to break the WA treaty. They both said there is no way it will or should get through the House of Lords
Which got me thinking.
There's a pattern here isn't there.
Two people have advised Johnson over the past few years. Cummings and Bannon.
Both of them are committed to bringing down the entire political system and rebuilding it in a new, right wing populist form.
They are both on record as saying that their plans have been to fire up the nationalist base by feeding them the lines that The Elite is trying to stop them getting what they want.
This is an obvious step in that direction. This time last year, Johnson flagrantly broke the law by proroguing Parliament. he was stopped by the Opposition parties and the Judiciary, and he used that to fire up Brexiters into a seething mass at the thought that The Elite was trying to stop them getting what they wanted. It's the same thing going on here. Johnson knows he is in a shocking position. He knows he can't get a deal from the EU without breaking every promise he made to the Brexiters.. And he knows that getting No Deal will be catastrophic. So he's using the Cummings/Bannon playbook. Use this mess to aim the Brexit supporters' ire away from where it should be (at those bas**rds like him who used them) and make the EU, the Opposition and the House of Lords the baddies. Deliberately whip up the fears of Brexiters that they are being denied the Brexit they want. Chuck more petrol on the fire that they have fanned for 5 years. And to hell with the damage it does.
Playing people, ever single step of the way. Amoral, unprincipled bas**rds. The damage they are doing to our social cohesion is beyond measure.
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Food for thought bst, what say you brexiters?
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Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
No mention of breaking a treaty in that. Try again?
I wouldn’t have thought it’d need to explicit mention it
You do. All I can see is a change of policy. No broken treaty anywhere.
No need to highlight any words Glyn. I can read it perfectly without thanks.
It’s not a change in policy. The policy hadn’t changed. The EU just chose to ignore their own policy in this instance.
So you agree it was policy and not a treaty. Good. Now we've got past that, how about a genuine example of the EU breaking a treaty?
Smoke and mirrors Glyn. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty that was written and agreed upon by the EU...That they decided shouldn’t apply to France in this instance. But of course you knew that didn’t you.
So, is it ok for the EU to break their own rules/laws by changing elements of their own treaties to suit their needs? Did you shout foul play when they broke this treaty to accommodate French overspend? Or doesn’t it fit your rose tinted view of the EU and you only have a fit when the UK do it?
Again, which treaty, and which clause was broken?Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
So, nothing to do with breaking treaties then?
Yes it is to do with a treaty. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty signed and agreed by the EU.
Which treaty is that then? And what clause has been broken? I'm asking because I'm getting the distinct impression you have no idea what a treaty is.
Happy to help you understand what a treaty is Glyn. You only need to ask.
It's the Excessive Deficit Procedure which is governed by the Article 126 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. The clause? I've no idea....but then again I'm sure you don't know either.
Now, about the question that you've avoided answering. Do you also call foul play when the EU break the rules within their own treaties (as with the French example) or is it only when the UK does it?
The Excessive Deficit Procedure itself is not part of the Treaty.
-
Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
So, nothing to do with breaking treaties then?
Yes it is to do with a treaty. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty signed and agreed by the EU.
Which treaty is that then? And what clause has been broken? I'm asking because I'm getting the distinct impression you have no idea what a treaty is.
Happy to help you understand what a treaty is Glyn. You only need to ask.
It's the Excessive Deficit Procedure which is governed by the Article 126 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. The clause? I've no idea....but then again I'm sure you don't know either.
Now, about the question that you've avoided answering. Do you also call foul play when the EU break the rules within their own treaties (as with the French example) or is it only when the UK does it?
It is impossible for the EU to break the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU - because the EU is not a signature to the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. This is a Treaty on the formation and functions of the EU as agreed by its member states. Only they can break it.
If you wish to argue that France 'broke' their obligations then fair enough. It is up to the other member states to take action. This is a Treaty between states to form the EU. Not between the EU and those states.
Wilts
It is the responsibility of the Council to impose ‘punishment’ on member states that don’t adhere to treaty obligations not the other member states. In the French example it was the Council who made the decision to overlook the overspend. The signatories of the treaty didn’t choose to vary the agreement. There was no ratification of any treaty changes. Quite simply the Council made the decision to override the treaty. Yet, from what I can see, there was very little complaint about it.
You really ought to read and try to understand Article 126.
-
Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
So, nothing to do with breaking treaties then?
Yes it is to do with a treaty. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty signed and agreed by the EU.
Which treaty is that then? And what clause has been broken? I'm asking because I'm getting the distinct impression you have no idea what a treaty is.
Happy to help you understand what a treaty is Glyn. You only need to ask.
It's the Excessive Deficit Procedure which is governed by the Article 126 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. The clause? I've no idea....but then again I'm sure you don't know either.
Now, about the question that you've avoided answering. Do you also call foul play when the EU break the rules within their own treaties (as with the French example) or is it only when the UK does it?
It is impossible for the EU to break the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU - because the EU is not a signature to the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. This is a Treaty on the formation and functions of the EU as agreed by its member states. Only they can break it.
If you wish to argue that France 'broke' their obligations then fair enough. It is up to the other member states to take action. This is a Treaty between states to form the EU. Not between the EU and those states.
Wilts
It is the responsibility of the Council to impose ‘punishment’ on member states that don’t adhere to treaty obligations not the other member states. In the French example it was the Council who made the decision to overlook the overspend. The signatories of the treaty didn’t choose to vary the agreement. There was no ratification of any treaty changes. Quite simply the Council made the decision to override the treaty. Yet, from what I can see, there was very little complaint about it.
You really ought to read and try to understand Article 126.
Absolutely Glyn. I posted sufficient of it for him but I note that, again, he deigns to comment!
-
Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
No mention of breaking a treaty in that. Try again?
I wouldn’t have thought it’d need to explicit mention it
You do. All I can see is a change of policy. No broken treaty anywhere.
No need to highlight any words Glyn. I can read it perfectly without thanks.
It’s not a change in policy. The policy hadn’t changed. The EU just chose to ignore their own policy in this instance.
So you agree it was policy and not a treaty. Good. Now we've got past that, how about a genuine example of the EU breaking a treaty?
Smoke and mirrors Glyn. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty that was written and agreed upon by the EU...That they decided shouldn’t apply to France in this instance. But of course you knew that didn’t you.
So, is it ok for the EU to break their own rules/laws by changing elements of their own treaties to suit their needs? Did you shout foul play when they broke this treaty to accommodate French overspend? Or doesn’t it fit your rose tinted view of the EU and you only have a fit when the UK do it?
Again, which treaty, and which clause was broken?Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
So, nothing to do with breaking treaties then?
Yes it is to do with a treaty. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty signed and agreed by the EU.
Which treaty is that then? And what clause has been broken? I'm asking because I'm getting the distinct impression you have no idea what a treaty is.
Happy to help you understand what a treaty is Glyn. You only need to ask.
It's the Excessive Deficit Procedure which is governed by the Article 126 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. The clause? I've no idea....but then again I'm sure you don't know either.
Now, about the question that you've avoided answering. Do you also call foul play when the EU break the rules within their own treaties (as with the French example) or is it only when the UK does it?
The Excessive Deficit Procedure itself is not part of the Treaty.
Glyn
You seem like an angry man who has trouble with civilised debate. You don’t often say anything with any substance do you?
Now, about that question that I’ve asked you 4 times? Are you going to answer it?
Oh and by the way....you might want to look at the TFEU. That will point you in the right direction.
-
Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
So, nothing to do with breaking treaties then?
Yes it is to do with a treaty. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty signed and agreed by the EU.
Which treaty is that then? And what clause has been broken? I'm asking because I'm getting the distinct impression you have no idea what a treaty is.
Happy to help you understand what a treaty is Glyn. You only need to ask.
It's the Excessive Deficit Procedure which is governed by the Article 126 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. The clause? I've no idea....but then again I'm sure you don't know either.
Now, about the question that you've avoided answering. Do you also call foul play when the EU break the rules within their own treaties (as with the French example) or is it only when the UK does it?
It is impossible for the EU to break the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU - because the EU is not a signature to the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. This is a Treaty on the formation and functions of the EU as agreed by its member states. Only they can break it.
If you wish to argue that France 'broke' their obligations then fair enough. It is up to the other member states to take action. This is a Treaty between states to form the EU. Not between the EU and those states.
Wilts
It is the responsibility of the Council to impose ‘punishment’ on member states that don’t adhere to treaty obligations not the other member states. In the French example it was the Council who made the decision to overlook the overspend. The signatories of the treaty didn’t choose to vary the agreement. There was no ratification of any treaty changes. Quite simply the Council made the decision to override the treaty. Yet, from what I can see, there was very little complaint about it.
You really ought to read and try to understand Article 126.
Absolutely Glyn. I posted sufficient of it for him but I note that, again, he deigns to comment!
NNK
Come on play nicely. Don’t fall into Glyn’s angry man persona!! There’s no time limit on replying is there?
For the record, your copy and paste job says not much. The Council agreed a deficit existed but decided not to impose ‘punishment’ on France (France being one of the most powerful members of the EU of course) thus breaking the terms of the treaty!
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What this little debate has done has highlighted is the polarisation of the Brexit debate. How, even with evidence set before them, people will refuse to accept that their view is in any way wrong, and their ‘side’ is squeaky clean.
Any criticism of the EU is roundly jumped upon by individuals without any understanding of the facts. The truth is the EU have broken their own treaties before...the truth is every treaty on the planet has at some time been broken or ‘ignored’....the truth is for many of us it doesn’t really matter. All I wanted to do was highlight the utter hypocrisy of Remainers and Brexit supporters who cry foul but ignore their own sides failings. I’m also a member of some other forums where I argue with Brexit supporters who are equally polarised and blind to the facts. Seeing people scurry off to try and prove that they’re right without any understanding is a sad sight.
For the record, I totally oppose the UK Government’s actions with the WA. However, also for the record, I oppose the EU breaking their treaties. But, all this smoke and mirrors about when a policy is a treaty etc is just utter b*llocks.
The Brexit debate has long since turned into a charade where either side is 100% right or 100% wrong. Utter insanity.
I voted to leave and I still dislike the EU. However, the manner in which the UK is handling it leaves things very sour for me.
Oh and by the way. If any of you still believe that the EU has never broken it’s own treaties before then, whatever you do, do NOT look into how Greece were accepted into the Euro. I wouldn’t want to shatter your illusions any further.
I bid you farewell.
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Out of interest HA, which treaties were those?
Google can't find any.
In 2018 the EU ‘accepted’ France’s budget deficit above it’s self imposed 3% ceiling. As you may recall, this monumentally annoyed the Italians and the Greeks who were being shown very little flexibility by the EU at the time.
Here’s a link for you.
https://www.politico.eu/article/macron-lost-authority-after-caving-to-yellow-jackets-says-oettinger-brexit-eu-budget/amp/
So, nothing to do with breaking treaties then?
Yes it is to do with a treaty. It’s a policy that is part of a wider treaty signed and agreed by the EU.
Which treaty is that then? And what clause has been broken? I'm asking because I'm getting the distinct impression you have no idea what a treaty is.
Happy to help you understand what a treaty is Glyn. You only need to ask.
It's the Excessive Deficit Procedure which is governed by the Article 126 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. The clause? I've no idea....but then again I'm sure you don't know either.
Now, about the question that you've avoided answering. Do you also call foul play when the EU break the rules within their own treaties (as with the French example) or is it only when the UK does it?
It is impossible for the EU to break the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU - because the EU is not a signature to the Treaty on the Functioning of the EU. This is a Treaty on the formation and functions of the EU as agreed by its member states. Only they can break it.
If you wish to argue that France 'broke' their obligations then fair enough. It is up to the other member states to take action. This is a Treaty between states to form the EU. Not between the EU and those states.
Wilts
It is the responsibility of the Council to impose ‘punishment’ on member states that don’t adhere to treaty obligations not the other member states. In the French example it was the Council who made the decision to overlook the overspend. The signatories of the treaty didn’t choose to vary the agreement. There was no ratification of any treaty changes. Quite simply the Council made the decision to override the treaty. Yet, from what I can see, there was very little complaint about it.
You really ought to read and try to understand Article 126.
Absolutely Glyn. I posted sufficient of it for him but I note that, again, he deigns to comment!
NNK
Come on play nicely. Don’t fall into Glyn’s angry man persona!! There’s no time limit on replying is there?
For the record, your copy and paste job says not much. The Council agreed a deficit existed but decided not to impose ‘punishment’ on France (France being one of the most powerful members of the EU of course) thus breaking the terms of the treaty!
Firstly Herbert, I'm not playing, I'm very serious as the whole of Brexit is a very serious matter.
The purpose of my cut and paste was to show exactly what the rules for the particular issue you appear to have are. I also provided a link to the full document - something that the EU, unlike our own government, is very good at; though very few people will take the time to research them; maybe it's easier to believe the lies and/or distortions in the right wing media, (not suggesting that applies to you, but it does to many and is part of the propaganda used by the leave camaigns).
From that section of the treaty it is very clear that the EU did not break any rules in respect to France at that time, though I can see why some other countries could have concern. But there is nothing in those rules that say that sanctions MUST be applied to a country running an EXCESSIVE deficit. Should that section of the treaty be tighter? Probably. But that can only be done from within the EU and as we are no longer members we can have no influence on it.
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I'm not an angry man, just someone exasperated by a wild claim with no substance to it. I've read Article 126 and I can't find anything in it that has been contravened. If you're so certain it has, just point out where. But please bear in kind the basic difference between UK Law and EU Law.
As for answering your question, when you give a real example of the EU - as an institution - breaking a treaty it's a signatory to I'll respond to it. Until then, it's just hypothetical.
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Business Secretary Nadeem Zahawi has just said this on the radio.
"We are absolutely committed to the Withdrawal Agreement and the Northern Ireland provisions."
Great! You'd think so wouldn't you? Given that the Govt shouted from the rooftops last October that they had achieved a fantastic goal by securing this WA.
And Johnson then spent the entire Election campaign explaining that the WA did not but a customs border between GB and NI.
And the Tory MPs celebrated when they voted the WA into law.
So. All good!
Except...
Zahawi then went on to say this.
"No British Govt could accept an agreement that discriminated against NI, and put barriers to trade between GB and NI. So we have to legislate to change the provisions of the WA."
Go on. Someone explain to me the logic going on here. Some Tory Govt supporter, please explain to me how you continue to support this shower. Me, in my decades of obsessive interest in politics, I have never heard anything like this. It's genuinely Alice in f**king Wonderland stuff. Words meaning whatever the speaker chooses them to mean, but making no logical sense to anyone else.
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Listen from 2:39:00 here.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000mcnw
Those of you who say that all politicians lie shamelessly, find me ANY example of a Labour politician in the past 10 years lying like Zahawi does here.
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Dawn Butler didn't do bad trying to set a couple of coppers up.
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And your evidence for that is Selby?
Anyway...just be aware where you are...somewhere WAY off the the Right of Norman Lamont.
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Why the time limit Billy, didn't you want the illegal war Blair led including, that was a decent breaking of international law wasn't it.
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Dawn Butler didn't do bad trying to set a couple of coppers up.
Remind me Selby - where did Dawn Butler lie?
Here's something to help you
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/aug/16/dawn-butler-police-stop-rooted-in-bias-says-black-police-officers-chief-andrew-george
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Dawn Butler didn't do bad trying to set a couple of coppers up.
That incident that the police apologised for, and invited her in to work with them to stop it happening again in future, you mean?
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Why the time limit Billy, didn't you want the illegal war Blair led including, that was a decent breaking of international law wasn't it.
Yes I agree. That was disgraceful. But that was a generation ago. Labour has been seared by that experience. And a new generation of politicians now runs Labour. So I'll ask again, when have you heard any of this generation lie like Zahawai was doing this morning?
By the way, I refused to vote for Blair's Labour party again after that. You crow about your support for politicians who have made careers out of lying.
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Cummings is throwing the NI unionists on the bonfire, as they are no longer needed for the purposes of this government.
Challenge the EU or Ireland to put in border controls to protect the integrity of the EU as an economic entity, then play the "not us, gov" card.
Very cavalier with the Good Friday Agreement. It looks like a border poll being called is just a residual risk they are prepared to take.
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Loads of threats and bluster the last couple of days, but nobody walked out of the meetings they were having, more bluster from both sides still to come, then will it be arms around each other and everyone friendly with some sort of deal?
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Like the WA deal that Johnson trumpeted last October as a masterpiece of negotiation Selby?
That WA that Nadeem Zahawi said this morning was unacceptable to any UK Govt? That one?
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Nadeem Zahawi is the one I hate most in this government.
And that's saying something.
He's a complete disgrace. Wouldn't know the truth if he was in bed with it.
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Meanwhile.
https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCJonSopel/status/1304401871730286592
Not that it will make any of the Brexit Death Cult one iota less certain of their quest.
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TT, your racial, you can disagree but not hate.
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No reply to a WUM.
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TT, your racial, you can disagree but not hate.
Sorry Selby you are wrong. How is intensely disliking Nadeem Zahawi racial?
I dislike the man with a passion as I do Johnson, Hancock, Gove and Patel.
Am I only being racial towards two of them?
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TT, your racial, you can disagree but not hate.
b*llocks. You can hate someone for the lies they spout with the colour of their skin being completely irrelevant. Like most of your posts on any given subject.
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Selby seems to be the only one on here who thinks Zahawi's ethnicity is relevant to this discussion.
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''Gove claims internal market bill protects UK integrity from EU 'threat'
Cabinet Office minister says new legislation ‘entirely consistent with the rule of law’''
So breaking international law is entirely consistent with the rule of law, even for Gove this is mad as.
''He also insisted that the government was acting “within the rule of law” and was behaving in a “constructive and pragmatic” way, despite the Northern Ireland secretary admitting the new legislation would breach international law''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/12/brexit-gove-claims-internal-market-bill-protects-uk-integrity-from-eu-threat
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And ................
FT Weekend
‘’The government was told explicitly in January that Johnson’s Brexit Deal would leave Brussels able to claim jurisdiction over ‘’large amounts’’ of UK state aid policy after the end of the transition period, documents have revealed ………………..’’
no link sorry
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Selby seems to be the only one on here who thinks Zahawi's ethnicity is relevant to this discussion.
He's got past on this, called me a racist for saying Brits on holiday abroad were increasing the spread in those countries Reckon he's just looking for a bite
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EU threat my Arris.
I can't believe what this Government is up to.
Are they determined to bring the country to its knees just to satisfy their rabid right wing sensibilities and line the pockets of a few.
It's about time all opposition parties and media started really letting the moribund public know exactly what is going on.
Mrs Toes went out for dinner the other night with two of her Tory voting pals. They were fulsome in their praise of how Boris is dealing with Covid and Brexit.
They read the Mail of course and listen to t**ts like Zahawi and Gove being allowed to spout lies on the TV without being robustly challenged.
Put my woman right off her veggie lasagne.
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Selby seems to be the only one on here who thinks Zahawi's ethnicity is relevant to this discussion.
He's got past on this, called me a racist for saying Brits on holiday abroad were increasing the spread in those countries Reckon he's just looking for a bite
Which is why I didn't engage.
I advise others to do the same.
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Selby seems to be the only one on here who thinks Zahawi's ethnicity is relevant to this discussion.
The classic description of a racist.
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Well at least it got the disciples out singing, The EU have just broken their own treaties allowing such as France to break their economic rules.
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Meanwhile, your regular reminder of how the rich and powerful who persuaded you to vote against your interests for Brexit have ensured that they don't get hit.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/hard-brexit-eu-passport-buy-malta-christopher-chandler-single-market-customs-union-a8185336.html?__twitter_impression=true&__twitter_impression=true
Kitsons, the lot of them. Unprincipled, mendacious Kitsons.
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Well at least it got the disciples out singing, The EU have just broken their own treaties allowing such as France to break their economic rules.
As usual, not paying attention and two days too late. Getting desperate for a bite, eh?
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Glyn they aren't a couple of days late breaking international rules they set themselves.
Remind me the last time their budget was passed off.
The biggest ponzie system in the world.
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Glyn they aren't a couple of days late breaking international rules they set themselves.
Remind me the last time their budget was passed off.
The biggest ponzie system in the world.
HA couldn't tell us which part of which treaty he maintained the EU has broken. I bet you can't either.
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''The attorney general, Suella Braverman, was on Saturday accused of sacrificing the UK’s reputation, sidelining legal advisers and bypassing the ministerial code during an extraordinary confrontation with some of the country’s top lawyers''
Nothing out of the ordinary for this bunch of outlaws and carpetbaggers?
More from that well known nest of lefties .................
''During the annual general meeting of the Bar Council, the professional association for barristers, Braverman was asked how Britain could retain “a shred of credibility” in imploring other countries to follow international law after revealing its own willingness to breach agreements''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/12/top-lawyers-slam-suella-braverman-for-wrecking-uks-reputation
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Glyn they aren't a couple of days late breaking international rules they set themselves.
Remind me the last time their budget was passed off.
The biggest ponzie system in the world.
HA couldn't tell us which part of which treaty he maintained the EU has broken. I bet you can't either.
Glyn
I did. Maybe if you spent less time sneering at anyone with a different opinion to you and opened your mind a little you’d understand? You need to understand that the EU isn’t a whiter than white organisation. It breaks treaties as all political organisations do. The point I’ve been trying to make, and one that seems to fly over your head, is that it’s hypocritical to call the UK Government for breaking treaty policies when the EU has done the same! Now, there may be a perfect justification for breaking the treaty policies in certain circumstances. You may agree with the French example or you may agree with the example below...that’s not my business here. The point I’m making (yet again) is that the EU have history here! I’m not moralising on the rights and wrongs of it!
Anyway, here’s another one for you to ignore.
The EU broke the terms of the Maastricht Treaty (Article 123 & Article 125) during the Eurozone crisis by issuing bail out aid to Greece (and other countries too in all probability)
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Glyn, I don't have to the German courts did it a couple of weeks ago, and the French threat to blockade ports is one for the future as is carrying on fishing in a sovereign countries waters mate.
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Glyn they aren't a couple of days late breaking international rules they set themselves.
Remind me the last time their budget was passed off.
The biggest ponzie system in the world.
HA couldn't tell us which part of which treaty he maintained the EU has broken. I bet you can't either.
Glyn
I did. Maybe if you spent less time sneering at anyone with a different opinion to you and opened your mind a little you’d understand? You need to understand that the EU isn’t a whiter than white organisation. It breaks treaties as all political organisations do. The point I’ve been trying to make, and one that seems to fly over your head, is that it’s hypocritical to call the UK Government for breaking treaty policies when the EU has done the same! Now, there may be a perfect justification for breaking the treaty policies in certain circumstances. You may agree with the French example or you may agree with the example below...that’s not my business here. The point I’m making (yet again) is that the EU have history here! I’m not moralising on the rights and wrongs of it!
Anyway, here’s another one for you to ignore.
The EU broke the terms of the Maastricht Treaty (Article 123 & Article 125) during the Eurozone crisis by issuing bail out aid to Greece (and other countries too in all probability)
Not again. The EU could not break the terms of the Maastrict Treaty because it is/was not a signatory to the Maastrict Treaty. The sigantories to the Maastrict Treaty are the individual countries that formed the EU at that time.
You appear to haave the strange irrational hatred of the EU that I can only put down to you trying to justify your strange irrational hated of countries working together.
I don't care. I don't care if several countries broke the terms of the Lisbon Treaty and Schengen Agreement by closing their borders during covid. That's up to them to sort out with the rest of the countries that didn't.
What they have not done, never, ever, is stood up in Parliament and admitted they were deliberatly prepared to break International Law. We used to invade countries for doing that.
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From above
What they have not done, never, ever, is stood up in Parliament and admitted they were deliberatly prepared to break International Law. We used to invade countries for doing that.
Yes Brandon useless Lewis a Johnson muppet is in Hansard as saying we will be breaking International Law. Its in the book - we all saw it and yet Worzel Liar has now briefed the minions to say that actually we wont be
You would be laughed at out loud if you came up with a Book with such a series of lies - unbelievable
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Glyn they aren't a couple of days late breaking international rules they set themselves.
Remind me the last time their budget was passed off.
The biggest ponzie system in the world.
HA couldn't tell us which part of which treaty he maintained the EU has broken. I bet you can't either.
Glyn
I did. Maybe if you spent less time sneering at anyone with a different opinion to you and opened your mind a little you’d understand? You need to understand that the EU isn’t a whiter than white organisation. It breaks treaties as all political organisations do. The point I’ve been trying to make, and one that seems to fly over your head, is that it’s hypocritical to call the UK Government for breaking treaty policies when the EU has done the same! Now, there may be a perfect justification for breaking the treaty policies in certain circumstances. You may agree with the French example or you may agree with the example below...that’s not my business here. The point I’m making (yet again) is that the EU have history here! I’m not moralising on the rights and wrongs of it!
Anyway, here’s another one for you to ignore.
The EU broke the terms of the Maastricht Treaty (Article 123 & Article 125) during the Eurozone crisis by issuing bail out aid to Greece (and other countries too in all probability)
Not again. The EU could not break the terms of the Maastrict Treaty because it is/was not a signatory to the Maastrict Treaty. The sigantories to the Maastrict Treaty are the individual countries that formed the EU at that time.
You appear to haave the strange irrational hatred of the EU that I can only put down to you trying to justify your strange irrational hated of countries working together.
I don't care. I don't care if several countries broke the terms of the Lisbon Treaty and Schengen Agreement by closing their borders during covid. That's up to them to sort out with the rest of the countries that didn't.
What they have not done, never, ever, is stood up in Parliament and admitted they were deliberatly prepared to break International Law. We used to invade countries for doing that.
A post that yet again proves my point on the hypocrisy of the Brexit debate. You’re clearly a fool who is blind to the truth Wilts. Do you actually understand how the EU works? It really is like banging your head against a brick wall here.
You’ve hit the nail on the head by saying you don’t care. You’re absolutely right you don’t. you don’t care about the hypocrisy and sanctimonious bullshit spouted by self righteous remainers. I’ve provided two examples where the EU has, at the minimum, turned a blind eye to treaties being broken by countries and nobody has the guts to accept it!
Do you honestly believe that Greece were in a position to join the Euro in 2001? Do you believe they met all of the requirements within that appropriate treaties? Or do you think they were allowed to ‘cook their books’ by the EU?
I don’t hate the EU. What I do dislike is the hypocrisy that the EU is a whiter than white organisation despite the evidence to the contrary. And, don’t fall into the trap of thinking that I’m an apologist for the UK government either. If you’ve read my previous posts then you’ll see that I oppose their current tactic of breaking the WA.
And one final thing. Can you please provide evidence of me hating countries working together?
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HA.
No-one is saying the EU is whiter than white. That's a straw man you have set up. It's a question if whether being in it is better than being out of it.
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Herbert of course I don't care. The UK left the EU 9 months ago. There are no Remainers any more. Leave-Remain it doesn't matter, they are as relevant as roundheads and cavaliers.
What matters is the relationship between the UK & EU from 1st January 2021 and the 40% of British trade that is dependent on it.
If you don't realise you are being a propogandist for Cummings & Johnson and their facist negotiating tactics, on behalf of the American billionaire who are behind their desire to break-up the EU so they can extend and exploit the European market that is left behind - then you really should.
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Glyn they aren't a couple of days late breaking international rules they set themselves.
Remind me the last time their budget was passed off.
The biggest ponzie system in the world.
HA couldn't tell us which part of which treaty he maintained the EU has broken. I bet you can't either.
Glyn
I did. Maybe if you spent less time sneering at anyone with a different opinion to you and opened your mind a little you’d understand? You need to understand that the EU isn’t a whiter than white organisation. It breaks treaties as all political organisations do. The point I’ve been trying to make, and one that seems to fly over your head, is that it’s hypocritical to call the UK Government for breaking treaty policies when the EU has done the same! Now, there may be a perfect justification for breaking the treaty policies in certain circumstances. You may agree with the French example or you may agree with the example below...that’s not my business here. The point I’m making (yet again) is that the EU have history here! I’m not moralising on the rights and wrongs of it!
Anyway, here’s another one for you to ignore.
The EU broke the terms of the Maastricht Treaty (Article 123 & Article 125) during the Eurozone crisis by issuing bail out aid to Greece (and other countries too in all probability)
No you didn't. You just pointed at Article 126 as if that proved something and then when I actually read the damn thing, realised there had been no obvious contravention and then asked you to tell me which part of Article 126 had been broken...silence.
Article 126 has built in flexibility that enables the EU to respond to events. It is not set in stone. Prove me wrong and tell everybody what the EU has broken in Article 126.
As for Maastricht Treaty Article 123, read paragraph 2. Article 125 talks about specific projects, so WTF has that got to do with bailing out Greece? Even then, paragraph 2 gives the Council flexibility to redefine.
You don't like hypocrisy, eh? You say I sneer but then you do the same to Wilts.
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Glyn, I don't have to the German courts did it a couple of weeks ago, and the French threat to blockade ports is one for the future as is carrying on fishing in a sovereign countries waters mate.
I knew you wouldn't and said so. Thanks for showing everyone how right I was. You're a star.
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Glyn they aren't a couple of days late breaking international rules they set themselves.
Remind me the last time their budget was passed off.
The biggest ponzie system in the world.
HA couldn't tell us which part of which treaty he maintained the EU has broken. I bet you can't either.
Glyn
I did. Maybe if you spent less time sneering at anyone with a different opinion to you and opened your mind a little you’d understand? You need to understand that the EU isn’t a whiter than white organisation. It breaks treaties as all political organisations do. The point I’ve been trying to make, and one that seems to fly over your head, is that it’s hypocritical to call the UK Government for breaking treaty policies when the EU has done the same! Now, there may be a perfect justification for breaking the treaty policies in certain circumstances. You may agree with the French example or you may agree with the example below...that’s not my business here. The point I’m making (yet again) is that the EU have history here! I’m not moralising on the rights and wrongs of it!
Anyway, here’s another one for you to ignore.
The EU broke the terms of the Maastricht Treaty (Article 123 & Article 125) during the Eurozone crisis by issuing bail out aid to Greece (and other countries too in all probability)
No you didn't. You just pointed at Article 126 as if that proved something and then when I actually read the damn thing, realised there had been no obvious contravention and then asked you to tell me which part of Article 126 had been broken...silence.
Article 126 has built in flexibility that enables the EU to respond to events. It is not set in stone. Prove me wrong and tell everybody what the EU has broken in Article 126.
As for Maastricht Treaty Article 123, read paragraph 2. Article 125 talks about specific projects, so WTF has that got to do with bailing out Greece? Even then, paragraph 2 gives the Council flexibility to redefine.
You don't like hypocrisy, eh? You say I sneer but then you do the same to Wilts.
Indeed Glyn. I posted the relevant section of article 126, (which HA has, as yet, failed to respond to), which clearly shows that the EU did not break any of its rules. But, sadly, people like HA would rather cling to the lie than admit the truth! And so he will continue to dig, looking for anything at all that will support his incorrect argument - and of course, will not find it!
As to Greece's membership, and the subsequent bail out - perhaps HA would do well to research what actually happened, and acknowledge that the European Commission initially proposed a ten year pre membership period but were overruled by member states - which again is within the rules.
https://www.euractiv.com/section/eu-elections-2019/news/eu-country-briefing-greece/
It's clear that HA has a certain hatred of the EU, though it's not clear to me why, as all he states as facts are completely wrong!
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You don't like hypocrisy, eh? You say I sneer but then you do the same to Wilts.
Did he, I didn't think so?
I think he was deliberately misunderstanding/wrongly comparing the breaking of an International Treaty ratified at the United Nations. with a country not following the rules of an organisation it had signed up to - and the other members of that orgnisation not doing anything about it - and then having a go at other posters for wanting to discuss this rather than the internal workings of an organisation we have left.
Herbert can clairfy if he want's. But I didn't take it as sneering and I don't beiieve he is that type of poster.
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Watching from afar, well said wilts.
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You don't like hypocrisy, eh? You say I sneer but then you do the same to Wilts.
Did he, I didn't think so?
I think he was deliberately misunderstanding/wrongly comparing the breaking of an International Treaty ratified at the United Nations. with a country not following the rules of an organisation it had signed up to - and the other members of that orgnisation not doing anything about it - and then having a go at other posters for wanting to discuss this rather than the internal workings of an organisation we have left.
Herbert can clairfy if he want's. But I didn't take it as sneering and I don't beiieve he is that type of poster.
I was thinking of this bit:
You’re clearly a fool who is blind to the truth Wilts. Do you actually understand how the EU works? It really is like banging your head against a brick wall here.
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You don't like hypocrisy, eh? You say I sneer but then you do the same to Wilts.
Did he, I didn't think so?
I think he was deliberately misunderstanding/wrongly comparing the breaking of an International Treaty ratified at the United Nations. with a country not following the rules of an organisation it had signed up to - and the other members of that orgnisation not doing anything about it - and then having a go at other posters for wanting to discuss this rather than the internal workings of an organisation we have left.
Herbert can clairfy if he want's. But I didn't take it as sneering and I don't beiieve he is that type of poster.
I was thinking of this bit:
You’re clearly a fool who is blind to the truth Wilts. Do you actually understand how the EU works? It really is like banging your head against a brick wall here.
Yes that's what I was referring too also. I think we see it differently Glyn.
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Stop moralising Kato about ripping up agreements, the Germans have been ace at it in the past ask Russia and Chamberlain, them two agreements went wrong big time.
I'm not moralising selby, simply stating the facts - neither more, nor less.
Here are a few more facts for you, what would ‘trading on WTO terms’ mean for the UK?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean-Long-Guide.pdf
I'm guessing you won't read it though, and I suspect people like Herbert and Hound won't read it either. Why are people like you so afraid of the truth?
Why are you referring to me NNK?
I’m not so sure why he has said that I am afraid of the truth either.
Quite simple Hound; you have said on a number of occasions that you choose not to read some articles that are posted on here.
Oh, by the way, did you read the article I linked to?
Just seen your above post NNK.
I don’t know why you think that my not reading all of the posts on here makes me afraid of the truth (whatever that is).
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https://mobile.twitter.com/AislingTax/status/1305099040640696320
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Stop moralising Kato about ripping up agreements, the Germans have been ace at it in the past ask Russia and Chamberlain, them two agreements went wrong big time.
I'm not moralising selby, simply stating the facts - neither more, nor less.
Here are a few more facts for you, what would ‘trading on WTO terms’ mean for the UK?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean-Long-Guide.pdf
I'm guessing you won't read it though, and I suspect people like Herbert and Hound won't read it either. Why are people like you so afraid of the truth?
Why are you referring to me NNK?
I’m not so sure why he has said that I am afraid of the truth either.
Quite simple Hound; you have said on a number of occasions that you choose not to read some articles that are posted on here.
Oh, by the way, did you read the article I linked to?
Just seen your above post NNK.
I don’t know why you think that my not reading all of the posts on here makes me afraid of the truth (whatever that is).
I haven't suggested you don't read all of the posts on here hound, try reading what I wrote again; and then tell me if you read the article I linked to.
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Stop moralising Kato about ripping up agreements, the Germans have been ace at it in the past ask Russia and Chamberlain, them two agreements went wrong big time.
I'm not moralising selby, simply stating the facts - neither more, nor less.
Here are a few more facts for you, what would ‘trading on WTO terms’ mean for the UK?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean-Long-Guide.pdf
I'm guessing you won't read it though, and I suspect people like Herbert and Hound won't read it either. Why are people like you so afraid of the truth?
Why are you referring to me NNK?
I’m not so sure why he has said that I am afraid of the truth either.
Quite simple Hound; you have said on a number of occasions that you choose not to read some articles that are posted on here.
Oh, by the way, did you read the article I linked to?
Just seen your above post NNK.
I don’t know why you think that my not reading all of the posts on here makes me afraid of the truth (whatever that is).
I haven't suggested you don't read all of the posts on here hound, try reading what I wrote again; and then tell me if you read the article I linked to.
You said that I choose not to read some articles.
I said I don’t read all of the posts.
I have read it again.
The difference is....... err....
By the way, no I didn’t read the link you posted.
I opened it and saw that it was 34 pages long so decided not to bother reading it.
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Stop moralising Kato about ripping up agreements, the Germans have been ace at it in the past ask Russia and Chamberlain, them two agreements went wrong big time.
I'm not moralising selby, simply stating the facts - neither more, nor less.
Here are a few more facts for you, what would ‘trading on WTO terms’ mean for the UK?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean-Long-Guide.pdf
I'm guessing you won't read it though, and I suspect people like Herbert and Hound won't read it either. Why are people like you so afraid of the truth?
Why are you referring to me NNK?
I’m not so sure why he has said that I am afraid of the truth either.
Quite simple Hound; you have said on a number of occasions that you choose not to read some articles that are posted on here.
Oh, by the way, did you read the article I linked to?
Just seen your above post NNK.
I don’t know why you think that my not reading all of the posts on here makes me afraid of the truth (whatever that is).
I haven't suggested you don't read all of the posts on here hound, try reading what I wrote again; and then tell me if you read the article I linked to.
You said that I choose not to read some articles.
I said I don’t read all of the posts.
I have read it again.
The difference is....... err....
By the way, no I didn’t read the link you posted.
I opened it and saw that it was 34 pages long so decided not to bother reading it.
If you don't know the difference between a post in a thread and a linked article in a post then the Internet is not for you.
And why am I not surprised you didn't read a very informative and interesting article.... Well here's another one for you to ignore and be uninformed about the deal we've agreed with Japan which isn't at all what Brexit promised! After all, it is in that ultra Left Wing rag the Financial Times so why bother reading it, it must be biased.
https://www.ft.com/content/edb7d155-56b4-4065-9f83-31b2247fa178
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Boris now saying the EU are being underhanded with NI and trying to dictate our boundaries. This was always part of the deal Boris negotiated, yet he didn't understand it and was spouting off to everyone how we'd have free movement in the UK. He then got his MPs to rush through the WA without scrutiny and here we are. This guy is 100% the worst PM ever.
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Ed Miliband of all people has been tearing strips off Johnson in Parliament this afternoon. He's absolutely ruined him!
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https://twitter.com/rtenews/status/1305540732304986113?s=09
Brilliant.
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Great from Milliband. Showed yet again what a tool this PM is.
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Great from Milliband. Showed yet again what a tool this PM is.
Johnson would have had a week at least to prepare his speech. Milliband wouldn't have known until 10.00am this morning at the earliest he was even doing one.
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Stop moralising Kato about ripping up agreements, the Germans have been ace at it in the past ask Russia and Chamberlain, them two agreements went wrong big time.
I'm not moralising selby, simply stating the facts - neither more, nor less.
Here are a few more facts for you, what would ‘trading on WTO terms’ mean for the UK?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean-Long-Guide.pdf
I'm guessing you won't read it though, and I suspect people like Herbert and Hound won't read it either. Why are people like you so afraid of the truth?
Why are you referring to me NNK?
I’m not so sure why he has said that I am afraid of the truth either.
Quite simple Hound; you have said on a number of occasions that you choose not to read some articles that are posted on here.
Oh, by the way, did you read the article I linked to?
Just seen your above post NNK.
I don’t know why you think that my not reading all of the posts on here makes me afraid of the truth (whatever that is).
I haven't suggested you don't read all of the posts on here hound, try reading what I wrote again; and then tell me if you read the article I linked to.
You said that I choose not to read some articles.
I said I don’t read all of the posts.
I have read it again.
The difference is....... err....
By the way, no I didn’t read the link you posted.
I opened it and saw that it was 34 pages long so decided not to bother reading it.
If you don't know the difference between a post in a thread and a linked article in a post then the Internet is not for you.
And why am I not surprised you didn't read a very informative and interesting article.... Well here's another one for you to ignore and be uninformed about the deal we've agreed with Japan which isn't at all what Brexit promised! After all, it is in that ultra Left Wing rag the Financial Times so why bother reading it, it must be biased.
https://www.ft.com/content/edb7d155-56b4-4065-9f83-31b2247fa178
I don’t know why you get so worked up about the Japan thing NNK.
After all there is nothing you can do about it is there.
On the 34 page link you posted the other day, I have better things to do than waste twenty minutes reading something that you posted, probably biased and again, something that I can do sod all about changing, even if in I wanted to.
Oh, and as for telling me that the internet isn’t for me, you are starting to sound like BST.
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That image of Johnson, mid-dressing down from miliband, slouched in his seat with his arms folded and a befuddled sulky look on his face tells you everything you need to know about the man. If there were any justice that image would be shared further and wider than Miliband's bacon sarnie image was.
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The internet is all they have got Hound, their wives take no notice of what they say if they are still around that is, anyway they are always doing research and links when not washing up.
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It just makes me chuckle when some of them come up with constant criticism and put downs against people who are much more qualified, without offering feasible alternatives as well.
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The internet is all they have got Hound, their wives take no notice of what they say if they are still around that is, anyway they are always doing research and links when not washing up.
The more people using the internet the better I say. You are paying my wages...
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Stop moralising Kato about ripping up agreements, the Germans have been ace at it in the past ask Russia and Chamberlain, them two agreements went wrong big time.
I'm not moralising selby, simply stating the facts - neither more, nor less.
Here are a few more facts for you, what would ‘trading on WTO terms’ mean for the UK?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean-Long-Guide.pdf
I'm guessing you won't read it though, and I suspect people like Herbert and Hound won't read it either. Why are people like you so afraid of the truth?
Why are you referring to me NNK?
I’m not so sure why he has said that I am afraid of the truth either.
Quite simple Hound; you have said on a number of occasions that you choose not to read some articles that are posted on here.
Oh, by the way, did you read the article I linked to?
Just seen your above post NNK.
I don’t know why you think that my not reading all of the posts on here makes me afraid of the truth (whatever that is).
I haven't suggested you don't read all of the posts on here hound, try reading what I wrote again; and then tell me if you read the article I linked to.
You said that I choose not to read some articles.
I said I don’t read all of the posts.
I have read it again.
The difference is....... err....
By the way, no I didn’t read the link you posted.
I opened it and saw that it was 34 pages long so decided not to bother reading it.
If you don't know the difference between a post in a thread and a linked article in a post then the Internet is not for you.
And why am I not surprised you didn't read a very informative and interesting article.... Well here's another one for you to ignore and be uninformed about the deal we've agreed with Japan which isn't at all what Brexit promised! After all, it is in that ultra Left Wing rag the Financial Times so why bother reading it, it must be biased.
https://www.ft.com/content/edb7d155-56b4-4065-9f83-31b2247fa178
I don’t know why you get so worked up about the Japan thing NNK.
After all there is nothing you can do about it is there.
On the 34 page link you posted the other day, I have better things to do than waste twenty minutes reading something that you posted, probably biased and again, something that I can do sod all about changing, even if in I wanted to.
Oh, and as for telling me that the internet isn’t for me, you are starting to sound like BST.
I've never said the internet isn't for anyone Hound.
I've suggested that some folk need to take a break from a discussion when they were losing their ability to think straight.
If you're going to misquote me like that, maybe you need to take a break?
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Reuters Exclusive: The EU is set to delay a decision on allowing City of London clearing houses to continue clearing euro transactions for EU-based clients due to concern over Britain's plan to breach its Brexit divorce settlement, a derivatives industry source said. @reutersHuwJ
https://twitter.com/GuyReuters/status/1305483278107979787
You are a money man Selby, tell us - is this a good or a bad thing?
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Andrew Neil...
https://mobile.twitter.com/afneil/status/1305401873273413634
I thought he was a major figure in the political media?
I wonder when he last read The Telegraph, Mail, Express or Sun?
Or, for that reason, The Spectator, of which he is chairman?
What a bizarre thing to write.
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Stop moralising Kato about ripping up agreements, the Germans have been ace at it in the past ask Russia and Chamberlain, them two agreements went wrong big time.
I'm not moralising selby, simply stating the facts - neither more, nor less.
Here are a few more facts for you, what would ‘trading on WTO terms’ mean for the UK?
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/What-would-trading-on-WTO-terms-mean-Long-Guide.pdf
I'm guessing you won't read it though, and I suspect people like Herbert and Hound won't read it either. Why are people like you so afraid of the truth?
Why are you referring to me NNK?
I’m not so sure why he has said that I am afraid of the truth either.
Quite simple Hound; you have said on a number of occasions that you choose not to read some articles that are posted on here.
Oh, by the way, did you read the article I linked to?
Just seen your above post NNK.
I don’t know why you think that my not reading all of the posts on here makes me afraid of the truth (whatever that is).
I haven't suggested you don't read all of the posts on here hound, try reading what I wrote again; and then tell me if you read the article I linked to.
You said that I choose not to read some articles.
I said I don’t read all of the posts.
I have read it again.
The difference is....... err....
By the way, no I didn’t read the link you posted.
I opened it and saw that it was 34 pages long so decided not to bother reading it.
If you don't know the difference between a post in a thread and a linked article in a post then the Internet is not for you.
And why am I not surprised you didn't read a very informative and interesting article.... Well here's another one for you to ignore and be uninformed about the deal we've agreed with Japan which isn't at all what Brexit promised! After all, it is in that ultra Left Wing rag the Financial Times so why bother reading it, it must be biased.
https://www.ft.com/content/edb7d155-56b4-4065-9f83-31b2247fa178
I don’t know why you get so worked up about the Japan thing NNK.
After all there is nothing you can do about it is there.
On the 34 page link you posted the other day, I have better things to do than waste twenty minutes reading something that you posted, probably biased and again, something that I can do sod all about changing, even if in I wanted to.
Oh, and as for telling me that the internet isn’t for me, you are starting to sound like BST.
I've never said the internet isn't for anyone Hound.
I've suggested that some folk need to take a break from a discussion when they were losing their ability to think straight.
If you're going to misquote me like that, maybe you need to take a break?
........and that last sentence is exactly what I mean BST.
For the record, I wasn’t quoting you, I thought you might have noticed that.
The reference to you was more because you often tell people what they should be doing and then in your next post, hey presto, you did it again.
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Hound.
If you didn't see the tongue in cheekness of that last sentence, there's not much hope!
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''Boris Johnson’s controversial plan to override key elements of the Brexit deal he signed with Brussels has cleared its first Commons hurdle despite deep misgivings by some senior Tories''
What a bunch of lily livered feeble twonks they are. This is the same people that fight elections on the rule of law?
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''Boris Johnson’s controversial plan to override key elements of the Brexit deal he signed with Brussels has cleared its first Commons hurdle despite deep misgivings by some senior Tories''
What a bunch of lily livered feeble twonks they are. This is the same people that fight elections on the rule of law?
MP for Don Valley Nick Fletcher was one of those voting for the UK to break International law, another spineless yes man that prefers self preservation rather than doing the right thing by the Country!
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A friend of mine needs a bit of help.
He went on a bender after the Brexit vote and has only just woken up.
He's trying to.piece together the past 4 years.
2016: This will be the easiest negotiation in history. We hold all the cards. The EU will come in its knees offering a deal.
.
.
.
.
2020: We appear to have written and signed an agreement that allows an evil Foreign Power to starve Ulstermen to death and the only way we can deal with that is by breaking international law.
Any Brexiteer up to the challenge of filling in the gaps?
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Had a bad day yesterday Billy?
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That's the wrong answer yet again selby :)
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Great from Milliband. Showed yet again what a tool this PM is.
Johnson would have had a week at least to prepare his speech. Milliband wouldn't have known until 10.00am this morning at the earliest he was even doing one.
I would suggest the majority if not all of that speech would have been prepared for KS, Milli might have added bits but I would suggest he was just the mouthpiece, and what a wonderful, if pointless, job he made of it. Water off a ducks back to The Liar though I 'm afraid
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Had a bad day yesterday Billy?
Forgotten to take your medication again selby?
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Getting used to losing every vote Kato? you and the leader seem a bit muted this morning I must say I expected more of a rant from Billy and you disciples.
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Getting used to losing every vote Kato? you and the leader seem a bit muted this morning I must say I expected more of a rant from Billy and you disciples.
Are you advocating breaking the rule of law?
The vote wasn’t about brexit, brexit is happening, so there’s no reason to carry on gloating at something that everyone has accepted. The vote was about not sticking to international agreements, breaking international law on something they were elected on, the WA, the Government has no mandate to be unlawful, our standing in World Affairs has now taken a massive hit, no one will trust us anymore, just like no ine trusts Russia, China and North Korea
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Getting used to losing every vote Kato? you and the leader seem a bit muted this morning I must say I expected more of a rant from Billy and you disciples.
The vote last night was won by those who have no care for the rule of law and was lost by those who have a genuine care about what that really means to this country. From your comment it would seem that you advocate breaking the law and reneging on a treaty we negotiated, sold to parliament, sold to the public, and signed? Anyone who agrees that that is something worth winning is a total loser in my book.
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Getting used to losing every vote Kato? you and the leader seem a bit muted this morning I must say I expected more of a rant from Billy and you disciples.
Worth remembering the Brexiters' attitude towards the rule of law next time they go on a boomer rant about youngsters gathering in groups, or BLM protests, etc etc.
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Getting used to losing every vote Kato? you and the leader seem a bit muted this morning I must say I expected more of a rant from Billy and you disciples.
Are you advocating breaking the rule of law?
The vote wasn’t about brexit, brexit is happening, so there’s no reason to carry on gloating at something that everyone has accepted. The vote was about not sticking to international agreements, breaking international law on something they were elected on, the WA, the Government has no mandate to be unlawful, our standing in World Affairs has now taken a massive hit, no one will trust us anymore, just like no ine trusts Russia, China and North Korea
He's a very weird bloke who isn't actually arsed about anything other than "lefty tears" and winding people up, regardless of what the thing he's actually purporting to back means for anyone that isn't him personally.
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Getting used to losing every vote Kato? you and the leader seem a bit muted this morning I must say I expected more of a rant from Billy and you disciples.
Are you advocating breaking the rule of law?
The vote wasn’t about brexit, brexit is happening, so there’s no reason to carry on gloating at something that everyone has accepted. The vote was about not sticking to international agreements, breaking international law on something they were elected on, the WA, the Government has no mandate to be unlawful, our standing in World Affairs has now taken a massive hit, no one will trust us anymore, just like no ine trusts Russia, China and North Korea
He's a very weird bloke who isn't actually arsed about anything other than "lefty tears" and winding people up, regardless of what the thing he's actually purporting to back means for anyone that isn't him personally.
My favourite thing is right wingers calling people on the left of center snowflakes, yet were not the ones doing this - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-8731225/Ofcom-complaints-following-Diversitys-BLM-performance-BGT-soar-21-673.html
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Getting used to losing every vote Kato? you and the leader seem a bit muted this morning I must say I expected more of a rant from Billy and you disciples.
Are you advocating breaking the rule of law?
The vote wasn’t about brexit, brexit is happening, so there’s no reason to carry on gloating at something that everyone has accepted. The vote was about not sticking to international agreements, breaking international law on something they were elected on, the WA, the Government has no mandate to be unlawful, our standing in World Affairs has now taken a massive hit, no one will trust us anymore, just like no ine trusts Russia, China and North Korea
He's a very weird bloke who isn't actually arsed about anything other than "lefty tears" and winding people up, regardless of what the thing he's actually purporting to back means for anyone that isn't him personally.
My favourite thing is right wingers calling people on the left of center snowflakes, yet were not the ones doing this - https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-8731225/Ofcom-complaints-following-Diversitys-BLM-performance-BGT-soar-21-673.html
Yep, I love that too. Anyone but them are snowflakes, yet they're the ones who get most precious when people have a different opinion to theirs. Bizarre logic.
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I see the headlines stating johnson 'struck a deal with tory rebels' wouldn't it be more accurate to decribe them as whimps, wets or feckless?
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Sometimes, you don’t need to be left or right of centre to see the reality of a situation….
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/09/britain-brexit-humbling/616343/
Though, of course, the Brexit Brigade will continue in their unerring quest; just as the EU will stick to their rules and obligations. The analogy in the above article is both apt and inescapable.
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I see the headlines stating johnson 'struck a deal with tory rebels' wouldn't it be more accurate to decribe them as whimps, wets or feckless?
It'd be fascinating to know what dirt the whips have on Bob Neil.
Tuesday he was like "This Bill besmirches Britain's reputation around the Globe and must be stopped."
Weds, after a 1-2-1 with Johnson: "Well if we have an amendment that says Parliament can have the final say on whether to besmirch Britain's reputation around the globe, that's OK."
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Sometimes, you don’t need to be left or right of centre to see the reality of a situation….
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2020/09/britain-brexit-humbling/616343/
Though, of course, the Brexit Brigade will continue in their unerring quest; just as the EU will stick to their rules and obligations. The analogy in the above article is both apt and inescapable.
Precise, calm and well written, if some of the details since the vote are a little hazy it's well worth a read, thanks Kato
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Wilts a bad day today extended to 2022, when you run a ponzi scheme with no money you have to have people you can borrow real money from.
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Wilts a bad day today extended to 2022, when you run a ponzi scheme with no money you have to have people you can borrow real money from.
That's good news. So what will happen after June 2022? And what will happen to the clearing houses in June 2022 when the owners of the ponzi scheme are not borrowing their money anymore?
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They have to pay an inflated interest because they will still be printing money to cover the southern states debt.
The populations of the northern states will be really fed up of picking up the tab by then, immigration, massive unemployment in the southern states of the younger generations, and the eastern states and the Irish revolting against being asked to chip in their share instead of standing there with there arms out waiting for the goody bag to be chucked at them, the French will still be trying to fleece everyone and play god,and other states turning against Germany sucking all the best bits out because of a undervalued currency they take advantage of.
All the best buddy.
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They have to pay an inflated interest because they will still be printing money to cover the southern states debt.
The populations of the northern states will be really fed up of picking up the tab by then, immigration, massive unemployment in the southern states of the younger generations, and the eastern states and the Irish revolting against being asked to chip in their share instead of standing there with there arms out waiting for the goody bag to be chucked at them, the French will still be trying to fleece everyone and play god,and other states turning against Germany sucking all the best bits out because of a undervalued currency they take advantage of.
All the best buddy.
You do talk the most absolute rubbish selby, you really do! Where on earth do you get it from?
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They have to pay an inflated interest because they will still be printing money to cover the southern states debt.
The populations of the northern states will be really fed up of picking up the tab by then, immigration, massive unemployment in the southern states of the younger generations, and the eastern states and the Irish revolting against being asked to chip in their share instead of standing there with there arms out waiting for the goody bag to be chucked at them, the French will still be trying to fleece everyone and play god,and other states turning against Germany sucking all the best bits out because of a undervalued currency they take advantage of.
All the best buddy.
But what has that got to do with UK based clearing houses not having access to the EU after 2022?
And when you say 'all the best' is that do with you expecting ordinary workers in the UK to have to pick up the tab for the inevitable tax revenue loss? Thanks for that.
-
They have to pay an inflated interest because they will still be printing money to cover the southern states debt.
The populations of the northern states will be really fed up of picking up the tab by then, immigration, massive unemployment in the southern states of the younger generations, and the eastern states and the Irish revolting against being asked to chip in their share instead of standing there with there arms out waiting for the goody bag to be chucked at them, the French will still be trying to fleece everyone and play god,and other states turning against Germany sucking all the best bits out because of a undervalued currency they take advantage of.
All the best buddy.
You do talk the most absolute rubbish selby, you really do! Where on earth do you get it from?
A random bloke on the radio usually.
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Even selby will understand this....
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-09-23/jpmorgan-to-move-230-billion-assets-to-germany-in-brexit-shift
JPMorgan Chase & Co. is moving about 200 billion euros ($230 billion) from the U.K. to Frankfurt as a result of Britain’s exit from the European Union, a shift that will make it one of the largest banks in Germany.
The U.S. bank plans to finish the migration of the assets to its Frankfurt-based subsidiary by the end of the year, people familiar with the matter said. The change could boost its balance sheet enough to become the country’s sixth-largest bank, based on the assets of the biggest commercial lenders last year.
Among the Biggest Banks
JPMorgan's Germany-based unit will soon be among the Top 10 lenders[/QUOTE
I think it's called 'Taking Back Control', (or something like that - selby will probably be able to explain why it's good for the UK).
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And then there's Gibraltar, (who voted remain), to think about....
https://twitter.com/GibraltarGov/status/1308356109607018497
Yep, taking back control.
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Spain will probably be taking back control of Gibraltar in the next decade or so.
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I see the planning for January is going well.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-kent-internal-border-police-patrol-lorries-b552680.html?utm_content=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1600867493
Still. We took back control didn't we?
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I see the planning for January is going well.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-kent-internal-border-police-patrol-lorries-b552680.html?utm_content=Echobox&utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1600867493
Still. We took back control didn't we?
Yep, and leavers still insist they knew what they were voting for....
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Can't wait to get my passport stamped for that Gillingham away day.
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In around five years time there'll need to be a Good Friday type agreement to get rid of the borders around Kent ffs
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On a serious and for me very worrying note
Liar Johnson said he would sort out the inhumane treatment of animals,
Thousands of such animals are taken to Europe every day to be killed for their meat and what a lovely last journey they must have - cramped and hot and probably unable to even sit down (I dont know because I simply dont want to know)
Now on top of that they face the prospect of being stuck for 24 to 48 hours on the way to dying. What a way to go for them and their death will eventually be a relief to them
Come on Liar Johnson - do something - uphold at least one promise
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On a serious and for me very worrying note
Liar Johnson said he would sort out the inhumane treatment of animals,
Thousands of such animals are taken to Europe every day to be killed for their meat and what a lovely last journey they must have - cramped and hot and probably unable to even sit down (I dont know because I simply dont want to know)
Now on top of that they face the prospect of being stuck for 24 to 48 hours on the way to dying. What a way to go for them and their death will eventually be a relief to them
Come on Liar Johnson - do something - uphold at least one promise
Indeed. "Under questioning, Gove twice refused to reveal how many of his promised 50,000 ‘customs agents’ – to help businesses prepare for a mountain of new red tape – have been recruited."
But don't worry, the Government will blame it on the EU and the readers of the right wing media will continue to swallow it hook line and sinker!
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Agreed Wolf it's a pretty obnoxious trade this one happened recently and Australia had some problems a couple of years ago. We are eating less and less meat partly for our health, partly for the planet and partly for the treatment animals suffer.
''New Zealand Halts Live Cattle Shipments After Vessel With 5,800 Cows Sinks
Accident draws attention to the business of trading and shipping livestock around the world; second crew member found alive''
https://www.wsj.com/articles/new-zealand-halts-live-cattle-shipments-after-vessel-with-5-800-cows-sinks-11599219050#:~:text=New%20Zealand%20suspended%20shipments%20of,animals%20floating%20in%20the%20sea.
''Death of 2,400 Australian sheep on ship to Middle East sparks investigation
Minister says company’s practices to be examined after livestock exported from Perth die from heat''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/apr/05/disgusting-death-of-2900-australian-sheep-on-ship-to-middle-east-sparks-investigation
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Janso, regarding your theory on Gibraltar if Spain go digging they will get a shock if they do I can assure you of that.
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And what if the people of Gibraltar decide they want to go back to Spanish control? or are only certain groups of people allowed to "take back control"?
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And what if the people of Gibraltar decide they want to go back to Spanish control? or are only certain groups of people allowed to "take back control"?
I suggest you have a look at the last vote Gibraltar had on that issue and think about how likely what you're saying is.
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And what if the people of Gibraltar decide they want to go back to Spanish control? or are only certain groups of people allowed to "take back control"?
I suggest you have a look at the last vote Gibraltar had on that issue and think about how likely what you're saying is.
Didn't actually say I thought they would, but Selby is all in favour of sovereignty so I thought I'd put the question to him.
I wasn't being entirely serious in my first post on the matter, but he chose to bite.
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And what if the people of Gibraltar decide they want to go back to Spanish control? or are only certain groups of people allowed to "take back control"?
I suggest you have a look at the last vote Gibraltar had on that issue and think about how likely what you're saying is.
Didn't actually say I thought they would, but Selby is all in favour of sovereignty so I thought I'd put the question to him.
I wasn't being entirely serious in my first post on the matter, but he chose to bite.
Good. Keep playing with him. He likes it.
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Just in case anyone has forgotten....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIpT58Oxd-A
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fmd, haven't seen that one it's a gobsmacker ......... I can feel the love and warmth of little Britain already.
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Just in case anyone has forgotten....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIpT58Oxd-A
Sorry I made it only to 30 seconds. Cant stand that - its like Bullseye with Jim Bowen saying "look what you could have won"
However in reality we could / would never have won even with a Govt of national unity.
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Just in case anyone has forgotten....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIpT58Oxd-A
Sorry I made it only to 30 seconds. Cant stand that - its like Bullseye with Jim Bowen saying "look what you could have won"
However in reality we could / would never have won even with a Govt of national unity.
Indeed mate, but the gullible fell for it hook line and sinker. Daftest part though is that there are them that still believe it!
Meanwhile, a friend showed me his new passport....
(https://i.imgur.com/tFy8NIn.jpg)
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Hearing news that Gillingham are having to withdraw from the league because they will no be only playing international matches. Can anyone confirm if this is true...
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It's ood to see Sir Jim Ratcliffe, owner of Ineos, multi billionaire and staunch Brexiter has got his citizenship for Monaco. Nice place to be tax efficient. Sunny, conveniently located and very kind to rich people - I wonder why he applied instead of staying and supporting what he campaigned for?
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Supposedly he will save £4 billion a year in tax. He still has a fortune of about £175 billion.
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It's ood to see Sir Jim Ratcliffe, owner of Ineos, multi billionaire and staunch Brexiter has got his citizenship for Monaco. Nice place to be tax efficient. Sunny, conveniently located and very kind to rich people - I wonder why he applied instead of staying and supporting what he campaigned for?
Well, Monaco isn't in the EU either...
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It's ood to see Sir Jim Ratcliffe, owner of Ineos, multi billionaire and staunch Brexiter has got his citizenship for Monaco. Nice place to be tax efficient. Sunny, conveniently located and very kind to rich people - I wonder why he applied instead of staying and supporting what he campaigned for?
Well, Monaco isn't in the EU either...
I didn't say it was Glyn, I simply asked "I wonder why he applied instead of staying and supporting what he campaigned for?". After all, he was a major player in extolling the, (imaginary), benefits of leaving the EU!
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''Britain's car industry risks losing out even if there is a post-Brexit trade deal with the EU, according to documents seen by the BBC.
Car parts from Japan and Turkey used in the UK will not be treated as British, so some exports may see higher tariffs''
Not a windup but why would anyone think otherwise?
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-54345882
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Nothing to worry about, we hold all the cards....
https://www.dw.com/en/eu-to-launch-legal-action-against-uk-over-brexit-bill/a-55115589
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Just made made easier for no deal kato, and what court is that going to be heard in, the one that has no jurisdiction over us.
If we do walk away Kato will we be in the right to arrest all EU fishing boats in our waters under international law?
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No deal, No brains, easy
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Aren’t we under that jurisdiction until the end of this year.?
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Sydney no brains, The law would not be broken until the law was actioned, so how can anyone take anyone to court for breaking a law that at the moment and will not be actioned until a certain position was reached.
How can any court predict the future?
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But it’s ok to pass a law that might allow the government to break a law.??
Would you think a man is justified in joining a dating website, as a precaution should his marriage break down sometime in the future.?
How would his wife react to that.?
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Sydney no brains, The law would not be broken until the law was actioned, so how can anyone take anyone to court for breaking a law that at the moment and will not be actioned until a certain position was reached.
How can any court predict the future?
Best tell that to Brandon Lewis MP, Secretary of State for NI. Who said in a speech in the HofC that Parliament passing this Bill would be breaking international law.
So they don't need to do anything else. Just passing this Bill into an Act breaks the WA.
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More than 7500 finance jobs plus over £1 trillion in assests has already left the UK for the EU - with more set to follow as banks prepare for December 31st.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-britain-eu-banks/more-than-7500-finance-jobs-have-left-britain-for-europe-ey-brexit-tracker-idUSKBN26L3WU
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I'm surprised they haven't asked you to go with them selby to ensure they get it right.
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They have someone else at the top of that hit list.
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What I do know is this takes our supposed breaking of EU laws on treaties to 37 pending cases, which puts us at the moment in tenth place behind 9 other EU members the worst offenders being Spain France Italy and Germany,
Perhaps Syderney you would like to go over and spend some time trying to sort your cheating mates out.
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What I do know is this takes our supposed breaking of EU laws on treaties to 37 pending cases, which puts us at the moment in tenth place behind 9 other EU members the worst offenders being Spain France Italy and Germany,
Perhaps Syderney you would like to go over and spend some time trying to sort your cheating mates out.
Where have you got that info from? Any chance of you actually answering this one for once?
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I thought you were the smart arse, try Euro News instead of the Guardian
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I've
I thought you were the smart arse, try Euro News instead of the Guardian
I've already told you I don't read The Guardian. Smart Arse.
Can't find anything on Euro News either. I put 37 into the search and it came up with nothing about what you cliam. Going to elobarate or is it just going to be me not believing you as usual?
Mind you, it makes a change from some random bloke on the radio whose name you don't know.
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It's on there Glyn, part of a full article I read this morning.
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This one?
https://www.euronews.com/2020/10/01/eu-brexit-infringement-case-what-is-it-and-should-the-uk-be-worried
Don't we currently have a long running case over Chinese shoe tariffs:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmeuleg/301-iii/30115.htm
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This one?
https://www.euronews.com/2020/10/01/eu-brexit-infringement-case-what-is-it-and-should-the-uk-be-worried
Don't we currently have a long running case over Chinese shoe tariffs:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmeuleg/301-iii/30115.htm
It can't be, it says nothing at all about any 'supposed breaking of EU laws on treaties' at all as selby claims.
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AND to change tack slightly - is EVERY f*****g thing going to change just so I can have a Blue Passport and Liar Johnson can make himself and the minions and Hedge Funder become miliionaires ?
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/read-this/rules-taking-your-pet-europe-will-change-end-year-heres-what-owners-need-know-2978623?fbclid=IwAR3hXGE1Agotqz2PSUhLrzpCpiv5sfFqffOkp3eFMjnsZwLzzwG8ISz8udM
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AND to change tack slightly - is EVERY f*****g thing going to change just so I can have a Blue Passport and Liar Johnson can make himself and the minions and Hedge Funder become miliionaires ?
https://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/read-this/rules-taking-your-pet-europe-will-change-end-year-heres-what-owners-need-know-2978623?fbclid=IwAR3hXGE1Agotqz2PSUhLrzpCpiv5sfFqffOkp3eFMjnsZwLzzwG8ISz8udM
Pretty much, yes. Of course, remainers knew this, and so apparently did leavers - well, they kept on telling us they knew what they were voting for!
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Well people maybe now cant get on a Ferry to Spain without being delayed
They cant take their Pets as easy as they could (and I am guessing it will cost much more)
Probably they soon cant take / use their EHIC Cards for cheaper medical costs if they fall ill whilst abroad as I reckon there will be no reciprocal agreement
So they will have to then use their own Travel insurance which (I am NOT guessing will be higher in price)
Nice !
Ive hypothesised a bit there but can anyone say thats NOT going to be about right and why ?
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How on earth is anyone supposed to negotiate with us over the Leave terms.
Johnson loudly announced last month that 15 Oct was the absolute deadline for finalising the terms.
Now that date has come without a deal.
And the talks just carry on as normal next week.
How is anyone supposed to pay any credence to anything he says?
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How on earth is anyone supposed to negotiate with us over the Leave terms.
Johnson loudly announced last month that 15 Oct was the absolute deadline for finalising the terms.
Now that date has come without a deal.
And the talks just carry on as normal next week.
How is anyone supposed to pay any credence to anything he says?
shhhh, no one has told him the date yet 😂😂😂
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Oh aye.
And he's been prattling today about us getting ready for Australian-type trade terms with the EU.
Now I KNOW he treats people who support him with total contempt because he lies to them regularly and they still support him. But this one takes the biscuit. He is clearly assuming that his supporters are too thick to realise that Australia doesn't have trading terms with the EU. It's a phrase designed to hide the reality - we are careering into the disastrous No Deal that we were promised in 2016 was just a phantom from Project Fear.
Everyone still happy?
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This Australia deal that we are going to get. It's identical to the deal North Korea has with Papua New Guinea.
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Sounds to me like he's getting set up to cave to the EU's demands (that we've already agreed to anyway) at the last minute, then pretend he hasn't and tout it as some big victory.
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What if it is the other way around Macho?
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Hardly.. the UK chose to leave the EU but if we want to retain some ties we need to accommodate how they want to do that, not something we could dictate..
Mind you, it’s been clear Johnson and his cronies wanted no deal from day one..
Why can’t they all just f**k right off.?
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What if it is the other way around Macho?
It isn't. He's already done it once, pretending his deal didn't put in a border down the Irish sea when it plainly did.
The EU haven't really moved from their red lines this whole time. We're going all in with a terrible hand and the worst poker face ever.
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It reminds me of a Roy Orbison song, It's Over
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How on earth is anyone supposed to negotiate with us over the Leave terms.
Johnson loudly announced last month that 15 Oct was the absolute deadline for finalising the terms.
Now that date has come without a deal.
And the talks just carry on as normal next week.
How is anyone supposed to pay any credence to anything he says?
Maybe the EU is just the EFL in disguise.
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Oh hang on. Now he's changed his mind. The talks are over.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54566897
A last desperate gamble to try to bluff the EU? Or are we REALLY going to leave with No Deal and his plan is to accept the carnage that will produce and just blame the EU?
Ending well this, isn't it? Hands up how many people actually voted for it to come to this. When every time anyone on the Remain side said it WOULD come to this, we were told it was just Project Fear and the EU would bend over backwards to give us whatever deal we wanted.
Just a reminder. The best Treasury estimate is that if we leave with No Deal, we'll lose 8-10% of GDP. Which would be equivalent to a Great Depression-type slump. On top of COVID.
Anyone? Explanations?
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Oh, hang on.
That article that quotes Johnson as saying the talks are "over". A bit further down, it says Barnier is coming to London for talks next week.
OK. NOW it becomes clear.
There's a deal coming. It will mean us caving in to all the EU central demands. But there'll be a bit of icing on top to make it look a bit better for us. And Johnson will crow about that in his Poundshop Churchill style and say he went eyeball to eyeball with the EU and they blinked, because they knew he really would leave with No Deal if they didn't buckle.
He's demanding a Canada-style deal [1].
We won't get a Canada style deal.
He'll crow that we've got a Canada-style deal.
Exactly the same thing as happened with the WA negotiations.
He insists we WON'T accept a border in the Irish Sea.
He signs a deal that commits us to a border in the Irish Sea.
He insists the deal he's signed means there won't be a border in the Irish Sea.
Pound to a pinch of dogshite that is what happens over the next month. Last time, he was lauded as a conquering hero for such genius negotiating skills. I wonder if folk will be any more awake this time?
[1] Course, back in 2016, no one ever dreamed of saying a Canada-style deal would be a good outcome. But hey-ho. Everyone who voted Leave knew exactly what they were voting for and anyone who suggests folk were bullshitted is an condescending Enemy of Democracy.
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Who will be your new team lads, Hertha, Juventus, Real, or good old PSG, when you move to the promised land and leave the sinking ship?
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You're a crap WUM, selby.
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Who will be your new team lads, Hertha, Juventus, Real, or good old PSG, when you move to the promised land and leave the sinking ship?
Pmsl 🤣🤣🤣🤣
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Very big increases in prices to come, according to business interests;
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-business-reaction-factbox/factbox-industry-reaction-to-uk-pm-johnsons-brexit-statement-idUKKBN2711UW
On top of the Covid impact, this is the worst combination of events as an economic disrupter.
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I wonder if the Eu are watching the membership fee billions swimming away with the fish?
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Oh, hang on.
That article that quotes Johnson as saying the talks are "over". A bit further down, it says Barnier is coming to London for talks next week.
OK. NOW it becomes clear.
There's a deal coming. It will mean us caving in to all the EU central demands. But there'll be a bit of icing on top to make it look a bit better for us. And Johnson will crow about that in his Poundshop Churchill style and say he went eyeball to eyeball with the EU and they blinked, because they knew he really would leave with No Deal if they didn't buckle.
He's demanding a Canada-style deal [1].
We won't get a Canada style deal.
He'll crow that we've got a Canada-style deal.
Exactly the same thing as happened with the WA negotiations.
He insists we WON'T accept a border in the Irish Sea.
He signs a deal that commits us to a border in the Irish Sea.
He insists the deal he's signed means there won't be a border in the Irish Sea.
Pound to a pinch of dogshite that is what happens over the next month. Last time, he was lauded as a conquering hero for such genius negotiating skills. I wonder if folk will be any more awake this time?
[1] Course, back in 2016, no one ever dreamed of saying a Canada-style deal would be a good outcome. But hey-ho. Everyone who voted Leave knew exactly what they were voting for and anyone who suggests folk were bullshitted is an condescending Enemy of Democracy.
https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1317144159271124997?s=19
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DO.
Ok. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe we ARE in the "If you don't give what we want, we're going to kneecap ourselves and you'll get covered in blood and bone!" mode after all.
This feels like watching someone else's slow motion car crash. Then suddenly realising with a horrific knot in my stomach that it's my kids' futures in the f**king car.
I cannot believe even this bunch of amoral chancers are REALLY going to take us out with no deal.
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It's not really that much of a stretch of the imagination tbh.
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Just been checking the news. Anyone know when the German car industry are going to turn up beacuse I can't find anything about it? Apparently they need us more than we need them?
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It's not really that much of a stretch of the imagination tbh.
I dunno. I assume most people act rationally when you consider what their drivers are.
In this case, I just don't get it. I cannot see what there is for Johnson to gain by driving us into the sort of economic disaster that No Deal would be. Yes it would be red meat to the people who put blue passports in front of things like jobs and getting food into the country. But there aren't actually THAT many of them. Certainly not enough to win you the next election if we are tipped into the sort of economic catastrophe that No Deal on top of COVID would bring.
I'm certain there are some proper spivs on the right of the Tory party whose businesses stand to benefit from No Deal. The likes of Rees-Mogg for example. But I just don't see how this is in Johnson's interests.
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Just perhaps BST he actually does want a deal and is trying to negotiate hard.
Of course they may already know behind the scenes what they're going to agree to but politics being politics they have to show their public persona differently.
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That's exactly what I said earlier BFYP.
I still think this is a smokescreen to hide the fact that we are lining up a shit deal.
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Haven’t people been continuously saying that any deal is better than no deal.
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Yes Hound. Just like a smack round the head is better than a kick in the balls. But you wouldn't choose either if it was up to you.
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Have you got the tricolour on the flag pole Billy ?
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Grow up..
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I have a feeling that some posters on here would have much prefered Bojo to roll over today and are disappointed they can't ridicule him more than usual.
Anybody heard from Stabber today, or is he on another trip to Brussels for a meeting with his old mates and a chin wag what to do next to keep us in the ponzi scheme.
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What I do know is this takes our supposed breaking of EU laws on treaties to 37 pending cases, which puts us at the moment in tenth place behind 9 other EU members the worst offenders being Spain France Italy and Germany,
Perhaps Syderney you would like to go over and spend some time trying to sort your cheating mates out.
Yes i heard that line from a reputable source dont ask where - I came on here to post something else
but with a quick bit of googling came across this for your perusal
https://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/scoreboard/performance_by_governance_tool/infringements/index_en.htm
now for the bit i wanted to post i saw an FT headline on the bbc tomorrows papers basically Merkel was telling the EU to get real in their negotiations
here is the
"Merkel calls for realism from EU in Brexit talks"
""Angela Merkel has warned the European Union that it must be more realistic in accepting Britain’s negotiating position in fishing and trade talks ahead of tomorrow’s critical summit of leaders.
The German chancellor said Brussels had to accept that any deal must be in the interests of the UK and the EU. Her comments came as British sources blamed EU divisions and sabre-rattling from France for the missing of a deadline to find agreement this week.
Mrs Merkel, who holds the EU presidency, told a meeting of European mayors that a deal was “particularly urgent from the Irish perspective”.
“We are going to continue to stand together in these withdrawal talks,” she said. “But we also have to take into account the reality: an agreement
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/merkel-calls-for-realism-from-eu-in-brexit-talks-3lqhhnrw3
now look at this from 2016
Angela Merkel tells EU there is 'no need to be nasty' to Britainwww.telegraph.co.uk › News
25 Jun 2016 — Angela Merkel has insisted there is "no need to be nasty" to Britain over ... EU officials said there was no real problem if it took a few months to ...
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/06/25/angela-merkel-tells-eu-there-is-no-need-to-be-nasty-to-britain/
methinx Merkel forsaw what would happen ??
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Well Merkel is one of the smartest cookies in the jar
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Just think where we could be if Boris was even half as smart.🤔
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Or even smart in any way the dangerous bit is that he thinks he's smart Idler?
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Tyke.
For the record, MANY of us were predicting in 2016 that the real purpose of Brexit was for Johnson to lead a cult taking over the Tory party.
I know it must hurt to know that you have been part of that process. But people need to learn when to grit their teeth and vote with their heads.
I voted for Blair with gritted teeth myself, because, while I hated many of his stances, it was better to have him than the shambles that the Tory party was in the late 90s.
In 2005, I voted against Labour because I wanted to send a message that Blair had to go after Iraq. But I knew that I was doing it in a safe Labour seat. Would I have done it in a marginal if there had been a chance of Labour losing and Michael Howard becoming PM? Never in a million years.
Similarly, I've campaigned and voted for Corbyn's Labour party despite not supporting many of his stances. Because the alternative was the barely credible shit show we now have.
You have two choices when you vote. You can naively vote for what you think are high principles that you believe in. Or you can grit your teeth and think, "What real-world outcome is the least bad one and how does my vote make that happen."
Unfortunately, you and a couple of million others on the Left did the former in 2016 and didn't think of the latter. And now we are all paying the penalty.
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Tyke your reference to beheading is in poor taste considering what happened in Paris yesterday..
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BST - dont forget the missing millions of Voters who couldnt indeed DONT give a flying f***
They boycott every GE and they didnt vote in the Referendum either. I think that though the result was 52 48 ish to Leave the actual percentage of the whole Electorate that wanted to leave was just 37 per cent
Dont suppose we can compel people to vote but they could and would have a large effect on the outcomes of every Election and those Suffragettes must be turning in their graves
(Note - its early and I have guessed at the figures I gave quoted above as a) I think they are near enough and b) I cant be ar*** to look them up)
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It's a bit of a shocker Wolf, there was a post the other week about having those with mask exemptions wear a badge or something but those that don't vote should have a dunces cap.
https://www.bbc.com/news/election-2019-50393317
https://www.votenone.org.uk/uk-unheard-third.html
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Tyke your reference to beheading is in poor taste considering what happened in Paris yesterday..
Genuinely didn't know IDM until your post , apologies if anyone was offended .
Removed the post .
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No worries mate..
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Tyke.
For the record, MANY of us were predicting in 2016 that the real purpose of Brexit was for Johnson to lead a cult taking over the Tory party.
I know it must hurt to know that you have been part of that process. But people need to learn when to grit their teeth and vote with their heads.
I voted for Blair with gritted teeth myself, because, while I hated many of his stances, it was better to have him than the shambles that the Tory party was in the late 90s.
In 2005, I voted against Labour because I wanted to send a message that Blair had to go after Iraq. But I knew that I was doing it in a safe Labour seat. Would I have done it in a marginal if there had been a chance of Labour losing and Michael Howard becoming PM? Never in a million years.
Similarly, I've campaigned and voted for Corbyn's Labour party despite not supporting many of his stances. Because the alternative was the barely credible shit show we now have.
You have two choices when you vote. You can naively vote for what you think are high principles that you believe in. Or you can grit your teeth and think, "What real-world outcome is the least bad one and how does my vote make that happen."
Unfortunately, you and a couple of million others on the Left did the former in 2016 and didn't think of the latter. And now we are all paying the penalty.
Billy let me ask you a question .
Did you ever envisage the Red Wall collapsing as a consequence of brexit in 2016 ?
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Tyke.
Yes of course I did.
Did you ever think about the counterfactual? What would have happened to Labour had they embraced Brexit?
-
Tyke.
For the record, MANY of us were predicting in 2016 that the real purpose of Brexit was for Johnson to lead a cult taking over the Tory party.
I know it must hurt to know that you have been part of that process. But people need to learn when to grit their teeth and vote with their heads.
I voted for Blair with gritted teeth myself, because, while I hated many of his stances, it was better to have him than the shambles that the Tory party was in the late 90s.
In 2005, I voted against Labour because I wanted to send a message that Blair had to go after Iraq. But I knew that I was doing it in a safe Labour seat. Would I have done it in a marginal if there had been a chance of Labour losing and Michael Howard becoming PM? Never in a million years.
Similarly, I've campaigned and voted for Corbyn's Labour party despite not supporting many of his stances. Because the alternative was the barely credible shit show we now have.
You have two choices when you vote. You can naively vote for what you think are high principles that you believe in. Or you can grit your teeth and think, "What real-world outcome is the least bad one and how does my vote make that happen."
Unfortunately, you and a couple of million others on the Left did the former in 2016 and didn't think of the latter. And now we are all paying the penalty.
Billy let me ask you a question .
Did you ever envisage the Red Wall collapsing as a consequence of brexit in 2016 ?
Could anybody have envisaged the three years of May's shambolic Brexit premiership that led to it?
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Tyke.
Yes of course I did.
Did you ever think about the counterfactual? What would have happened to Labour had they embraced Brexit?
You envisaged ex miners would vote Tory , fair enough Billy .
You should give Starmer a call , the party need a good political analyst .
Personally I never thought that would happen in 2016 , extremely pyssed off for sure but vote Tory ?
Far too much history and bad blood for that to happen but clearly I was wrong .
-
Tyke.
For the record, MANY of us were predicting in 2016 that the real purpose of Brexit was for Johnson to lead a cult taking over the Tory party.
I know it must hurt to know that you have been part of that process. But people need to learn when to grit their teeth and vote with their heads.
I voted for Blair with gritted teeth myself, because, while I hated many of his stances, it was better to have him than the shambles that the Tory party was in the late 90s.
In 2005, I voted against Labour because I wanted to send a message that Blair had to go after Iraq. But I knew that I was doing it in a safe Labour seat. Would I have done it in a marginal if there had been a chance of Labour losing and Michael Howard becoming PM? Never in a million years.
Similarly, I've campaigned and voted for Corbyn's Labour party despite not supporting many of his stances. Because the alternative was the barely credible shit show we now have.
You have two choices when you vote. You can naively vote for what you think are high principles that you believe in. Or you can grit your teeth and think, "What real-world outcome is the least bad one and how does my vote make that happen."
Unfortunately, you and a couple of million others on the Left did the former in 2016 and didn't think of the latter. And now we are all paying the penalty.
Billy let me ask you a question .
Did you ever envisage the Red Wall collapsing as a consequence of brexit in 2016 ?
Could anybody have envisaged the three years of May's shambolic Brexit premiership that led to it?
Not on that scale no , to be fair she wasn't exactly helped by the democracy deniers and political opportunists either .
-
BST - dont forget the missing millions of Voters who couldnt indeed DONT give a flying f***
They boycott every GE and they didnt vote in the Referendum either. I think that though the result was 52 48 ish to Leave the actual percentage of the whole Electorate that wanted to leave was just 37 per cent
Dont suppose we can compel people to vote but they could and would have a large effect on the outcomes of every Election and those Suffragettes must be turning in their graves
(Note - its early and I have guessed at the figures I gave quoted above as a) I think they are near enough and b) I cant be ar*** to look them up)
Actually we CAN compell people to vote. We do the same as Australia where you are fined if you don't vote.
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Tyke.
Yes of course I did.
Did you ever think about the counterfactual? What would have happened to Labour had they embraced Brexit?
You envisaged ex miners would vote Tory , fair enough Billy .
You should give Starmer a call , the party need a good political analyst .
Personally I never thought that would happen in 2016 , extremely pyssed off for sure but vote Tory ?
Far too much history and bad blood for that to happen but clearly I was wrong .
So. The counterfactual?
-
Tyke.
For the record, MANY of us were predicting in 2016 that the real purpose of Brexit was for Johnson to lead a cult taking over the Tory party.
I know it must hurt to know that you have been part of that process. But people need to learn when to grit their teeth and vote with their heads.
I voted for Blair with gritted teeth myself, because, while I hated many of his stances, it was better to have him than the shambles that the Tory party was in the late 90s.
In 2005, I voted against Labour because I wanted to send a message that Blair had to go after Iraq. But I knew that I was doing it in a safe Labour seat. Would I have done it in a marginal if there had been a chance of Labour losing and Michael Howard becoming PM? Never in a million years.
Similarly, I've campaigned and voted for Corbyn's Labour party despite not supporting many of his stances. Because the alternative was the barely credible shit show we now have.
You have two choices when you vote. You can naively vote for what you think are high principles that you believe in. Or you can grit your teeth and think, "What real-world outcome is the least bad one and how does my vote make that happen."
Unfortunately, you and a couple of million others on the Left did the former in 2016 and didn't think of the latter. And now we are all paying the penalty.
Billy let me ask you a question .
Did you ever envisage the Red Wall collapsing as a consequence of brexit in 2016 ?
Could anybody have envisaged the three years of May's shambolic Brexit premiership that led to it?
Not on that scale no , to be fair she wasn't exactly helped by the democracy deniers and political opportunists either .
I often thought that May who I think was a Remainer was simply playing the long game waiting to reach a point of no return / backed into a corner and being "forced" to offer a second Referendum
Eventually she was forced out before that happened and I still dislike that Jo Swinson for caving in to Johnson when he was trying to force his need for an Election through. All the opposition had to say is - yes we will let you have an Election as long as once you have finished negotiating the EU exit you put the deal back to the people.
Johnson would have been the one who would be looking the unreasonable one after trumpeting an Election and then backing down BUT in the end Swinson was the one that caved in and gave him the perfect "out" then left the scene of her "crime" and I HOPE she thinks of the crap that has followed and how so much of it is due to her. All she had to do is hold her nerve
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BST - dont forget the missing millions of Voters who couldnt indeed DONT give a flying f***
They boycott every GE and they didnt vote in the Referendum either. I think that though the result was 52 48 ish to Leave the actual percentage of the whole Electorate that wanted to leave was just 37 per cent
Dont suppose we can compel people to vote but they could and would have a large effect on the outcomes of every Election and those Suffragettes must be turning in their graves
(Note - its early and I have guessed at the figures I gave quoted above as a) I think they are near enough and b) I cant be ar*** to look them up)
Actually we CAN compell people to vote. We do the same as Australia where you are fined if you don't vote.
And who the f*ck will pay the fine?
This country can't even keep people safe on the streets.
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i was thinking abou what Merkel said in 2016 about ther being no need to be " nasty" to the uk
and thought maybe this alleged "hard line" action was aimed as a deterrant to other countries leaving the EU.
at least nine months ago i saw Italy was 14/1 favourite to be the next to leave the next shortest was some much bigger price at least 25/1 from memory
so just checked the current odds lowest prices
Italy are the 3/1 favourites
Greece 6/1
France 8/1 ....... amazingly low
Spain 14/1 or 50/1
Germany 33/1 or 80/1 take your choice
https://www.oddschecker.com/politics/european-politics/next-country-to-leave-eu
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Italy would be the most likely of the "Big Four" member states to consider exiting the European Union if Brexit proves to be beneficial to Britain, according to a Euronews-commissioned poll.
Data from the Redfield and Wilton Strategies survey found that nearly half of Italians would be likely to support their country leaving the EU if the UK and its economy are regarded to be in good health in five years.
In the event, France and Spain both showed moderate support for changing its relationship with the bloc, while Germany was the member state least likely of the four major players to consider leaving the Union.
The poll findings come just weeks after the founding of a new anti-EU party in Italy."
https://www.euronews.com/2020/08/10/nearly-half-of-italians-would-support-leaving-the-eu-if-brexit-is-successful-according-to
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BST - dont forget the missing millions of Voters who couldnt indeed DONT give a flying f***
They boycott every GE and they didnt vote in the Referendum either. I think that though the result was 52 48 ish to Leave the actual percentage of the whole Electorate that wanted to leave was just 37 per cent
Dont suppose we can compel people to vote but they could and would have a large effect on the outcomes of every Election and those Suffragettes must be turning in their graves
(Note - its early and I have guessed at the figures I gave quoted above as a) I think they are near enough and b) I cant be ar*** to look them up)
Actually we CAN compell people to vote. We do the same as Australia where you are fined if you don't vote.
And who the f*ck will pay the fine?
This country can't even keep people safe on the streets.
Not many places can Steve.
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Tyke.
For the record, MANY of us were predicting in 2016 that the real purpose of Brexit was for Johnson to lead a cult taking over the Tory party.
I know it must hurt to know that you have been part of that process. But people need to learn when to grit their teeth and vote with their heads.
I voted for Blair with gritted teeth myself, because, while I hated many of his stances, it was better to have him than the shambles that the Tory party was in the late 90s.
In 2005, I voted against Labour because I wanted to send a message that Blair had to go after Iraq. But I knew that I was doing it in a safe Labour seat. Would I have done it in a marginal if there had been a chance of Labour losing and Michael Howard becoming PM? Never in a million years.
Similarly, I've campaigned and voted for Corbyn's Labour party despite not supporting many of his stances. Because the alternative was the barely credible shit show we now have.
You have two choices when you vote. You can naively vote for what you think are high principles that you believe in. Or you can grit your teeth and think, "What real-world outcome is the least bad one and how does my vote make that happen."
Unfortunately, you and a couple of million others on the Left did the former in 2016 and didn't think of the latter. And now we are all paying the penalty.
Billy let me ask you a question .
Did you ever envisage the Red Wall collapsing as a consequence of brexit in 2016 ?
Could anybody have envisaged the three years of May's shambolic Brexit premiership that led to it?
Not on that scale no , to be fair she wasn't exactly helped by the democracy deniers and political opportunists either .
The people who hampered her most were the rabid leavers in her own party who had the power to hamstring her and the Brexit they claimed they wanted - unlike those you're talking about.
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With or without a deal the fishing rights problem will possibly prove to be deadly. Both sides have crazy fishermen but it seems that the johny foreigners have the bigger boats and that could lead to a fishing war. We have seen images of crazy French boats ramming British boats in the past, and lets not forget we are talking about fishermens livlihoods at stake here
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This is the 2018 catch stats
''74% of the quantity landed by the UK fleet was caught by vessels over 24 metres in length which accounted for 4% of the total number of UK vessels. These vessels tend to catch lower value pelagic fish''
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fishing-industry-in-2018-statistics-published#:~:text=Around%2012%2C000%20fishermen%20were%20active,value%20of%20%C2%A3169%20million.
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''Brexit trade deal: Who really owns UK fishing quotas?''
This is who owns the licenses etc it's worth a read.
BBC May 2020
''Foreign companies own the rights to catch more than 130,000 tonnes of fish every year that are part of England's fishing quota, BBC research has revealed.
More than £160m worth of the English quota is in the hands of vessels owned by companies based in Iceland, Spain and the Netherlands, thanks to a practice known as "quota-hopping".
That amounts to 55% of the quota's annual value in 2019.
Taking back control of UK fishing waters was a key issue for many Brexit supporters.
But with fishing still an obstacle in the UK's trade talks with the European Union, the figures raise questions about what taking back control will actually mean''
And
''Our research suggests that taking back much greater control could mean buying back fishing quota.
That would come at quite a cost, which the government doesn't currently seem prepared to pay''
https://www.bbc.com/news/52420116
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With or without a deal the fishing rights problem will possibly prove to be deadly. Both sides have crazy fishermen but it seems that the johny foreigners have the bigger boats and that could lead to a fishing war. We have seen images of crazy French boats ramming British boats in the past, and lets not forget we are talking about fishermens livlihoods at stake here
Funny isn't it. The country is up in arms about fishermen's livelihood's, yet the same people couldn't give a shit when thousands of miners lost their jobs when the mines were closed down. And then there was the Steel Workers, and...........
The right wing media have a lot to answer for!
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Kato, we are looking at the remnants of our fishing industry that has been decimated since we entered the EU to the benefit of other members fishing communities in other member states fishing in our waters.
I have seen repeatedly the percentage of GDP as it is now quoted in a way to reduce the effect on our economy and minimize the so called effect to our country compared with other industries.
I have never seen the GDP figures as they were as we entered the EU to compare with present day but would guess that it was a bigger share of GDP at that time having visited as a school trip to Hull and Grimsby the massive fish docks that no longer exist.
This could be the chance to grow that industry back to how it was, perhaps Europe could be their market.
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Kato, we are looking at the remnants of our fishing industry that has been decimated since we entered the EU to the benefit of other members fishing communities in other member states fishing in our waters.
I have seen repeatedly the percentage of GDP as it is now quoted in a way to reduce the effect on our economy and minimize the so called effect to our country compared with other industries.
I have never seen the GDP figures as they were as we entered the EU to compare with present day but would guess that it was a bigger share of GDP at that time having visited as a school trip to Hull and Grimsby the massive fish docks that no longer exist.
This could be the chance to grow that industry back to how it was, perhaps Europe could be their market.
Is it worth it if it's to the detriment of other more profitable sectors?
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With or without a deal the fishing rights problem will possibly prove to be deadly. Both sides have crazy fishermen but it seems that the johny foreigners have the bigger boats and that could lead to a fishing war. We have seen images of crazy French boats ramming British boats in the past, and lets not forget we are talking about fishermens livlihoods at stake here
Funny isn't it. The country is up in arms about fishermen's livelihood's, yet the same people couldn't give a shit when thousands of miners lost their jobs when the mines were closed down. And then there was the Steel Workers, and...........
The right wing media have a lot to answer for!
Do you know I don't recollect readng anything about coal or steel strikes in France. It was the crazy French fishermen I was referring to but hey never mind you just carry on political point scoring
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Fish landed from UK waters will need to be consumed in the UK after a "no deal" exit.
Any fish sold abroad will have to pay import tariffs.
This means export of UK fish will be more expensive than locally sourced.
As DO says, the industry is a tiddler in terms of the UK economy.
What happens to fishing is very much secondary to other sectors with greater economic weight.
The UK car industry is very vulnerable, including all the supply and support chains involved.
Why make cars here and pay tariffs to export, when you can produce abroad and avoid that cost?
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So your not bothered about the fishing communities then Albie as long as the car makers mostly foreign owned, some French that blatantly ignored government subsidies to save them at others expense, and the same country that is threatening to ignore our sovereignty your quite happy with that.
If they piss off I will bet they are replaced within five years probably with Chinese car makers.
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Selby,
Please read my post properly.
I said that tariffs will end exports of fish, so if the UK fishing sector is not wholly focussed on the domestic market it will lose market share.
The point about the car industry is likely job losses, not who the owners are.
Do you want to see big redundancies in the industry?
You may be right about Chinese car production taking a bigger share.
If you do not want to see that then I suggest a no deal is the worst possible option.
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Let's have a think why Chinese car manufacturers might, in some hypothetical future world, see Britain as a suitable place to set up business.
Britain would need to have some major benefits over other countries.
The major costs for car manufacturers are:
1) Labour costs
2) Raw materials
3) Shipping costs
4) Tariffs.
Well, we COULD offer the Chinese a low cost labour market. But I'm not sure that even the most rabid Brexiteer would admit to having an ambition that we pay our workers less than the Chinese pay theirs/ So that one's out.
We have to export pretty much all raw materials into the UK these days, so there's no real benefit to setting up here on that score.
Shipping. Well, now, see...we are a long way from everywhere in the world. Of aye. Except for a market of half a billion of some of the richest consumers that the world has ever seen, right on our doorstep.
But... Damn! We are just about to rip up the frictionless and tariff-free trade arrangement we've had with them for the past 30 years. So if you want to make cars in the UK and sell them in Europe, all other things being equal, the sale price will be higher than it will be if you make them in Slovakia and sell them in Europe. Plus there's the ball ache of all the paperwork that will now go with it.
What's that you say? America? We'll be able to strike a deal with America that means we can make China's cars in the UK and ship them to America without paying tariffs. Well, we MIGHT be able to. If America agrees. But then of course, you have to pay to ship them 3,500 miles over the ocean. So why not just make them in America? Or maybe Mexico, where they have much cheaper labour costs and already have trade arrangement with the USA?
So remind me. Why exactly would the Chinese build their cars here?
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BST,
I think Selby meant UK manufacture would be replaced by Chinese imports.
No-one is going to make things for export in the UK under tariff barriers. ....unless the UK used State Aid to bribe Chinese manufacturers to locate here for example.
Selby does not seem to be worried about UK jobs too much.
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We have given state aid to Japanese French and German manufacturers here for years. I would not let them remove one nut or bolt if they leave this country and would put a purchase tax on their cars and spare parts unless made in this country that would price them out of this market.
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We have given state aid to Japanese French and German manufacturers here for years. I would not let them remove one nut or bolt if they leave this country and would put a purchase tax on their cars and spare parts unless made in this country that would price them out of this market.
Can't. We have just signed one of those super trade deals with Japan that we have been able to negotiate now we are an independent country. It stipulates exactly what we can and can't do with regards to state aid and Japanese companies.
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Let's have a think why Chinese car manufacturers might, in some hypothetical future world, see Britain as a suitable place to set up business.
Britain would need to have some major benefits over other countries.
The major costs for car manufacturers are:
1) Labour costs
2) Raw materials
3) Shipping costs
4) Tariffs.
Well, we COULD offer the Chinese a low cost labour market. But I'm not sure that even the most rabid Brexiteer would admit to having an ambition that we pay our workers less than the Chinese pay theirs/ So that one's out.
We have to export pretty much all raw materials into the UK these days, so there's no real benefit to setting up here on that score.
Shipping. Well, now, see...we are a long way from everywhere in the world. Of aye. Except for a market of half a billion of some of the richest consumers that the world has ever seen, right on our doorstep.
But... Damn! We are just about to rip up the frictionless and tariff-free trade arrangement we've had with them for the past 30 years. So if you want to make cars in the UK and sell them in Europe, all other things being equal, the sale price will be higher than it will be if you make them in Slovakia and sell them in Europe. Plus there's the ball ache of all the paperwork that will now go with it.
What's that you say? America? We'll be able to strike a deal with America that means we can make China's cars in the UK and ship them to America without paying tariffs. Well, we MIGHT be able to. If America agrees. But then of course, you have to pay to ship them 3,500 miles over the ocean. So why not just make them in America? Or maybe Mexico, where they have much cheaper labour costs and already have trade arrangement with the USA?
So remind me. Why exactly would the Chinese build their cars here?
I would think that development costs would be one of the biggest expenses.
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You do know that MG cars (that well known British brand) are made in China don't you?
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I would have thought that when being threatened with France, Spain Holland and Denmark threatening to ignore international fishing limits, and France stopping energy supplies which would be under contract you would be within your rights to do anything you want and deal with anyone you want.
There again you might want the EU to smack our arse without a wimper, but it won't work like that buddy, and my experience of life is if somebody will not supply you with a product others from somewhere else will do to make a buck, and there is not a lot of anything made in the EU we will be unable to get from other countries who will be more than happy to shove them aside without the jumping through hoops we have to do now.
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I think 46% of UK trade is with the EU.
https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-goods-exports-gdp/
70% of fish landed in the UK is sold on to foreign markets, according to the Express;
https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/1294555/Brexit-news-latest-UK-eu-free-trade-deal-Boris-johnson-fisheries-michel-barnier
Now if you stand to lose those markets, you need to have an alternative who will accept your goods without tariff barriers.
As it stands, we cannot replace the loss of existing market sales with any equivalent without penalty.
That means job losses across the economy.
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I would have thought that when being threatened with France, Spain Holland and Denmark threatening to ignore international fishing limits, and France stopping energy supplies which would be under contract you would be within your rights to do anything you want and deal with anyone you want.
There again you might want the EU to smack our arse without a wimper, but it won't work like that buddy, and my experience of life is if somebody will not supply you with a product others from somewhere else will do to make a buck, and there is not a lot of anything made in the EU we will be unable to get from other countries who will be more than happy to shove them aside without the jumping through hoops we have to do now.
Most of the North Sea fishing rights are foreign owned and most of our utility companies are owned by European governments. Ironic eh. Who would have thought it.
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... and I see Gove is now saying "Oven ready" referred to the Withdrawal Agreement rather than the terms of the deal they are negotiating right now
Strange that he seems to have forgotten the Withdrawal agreement itself certainly was not "oven ready" either or super simples or easy peasy and other things they said it would be
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I would have thought that when being threatened with France, Spain Holland and Denmark threatening to ignore international fishing limits, and France stopping energy supplies which would be under contract you would be within your rights to do anything you want and deal with anyone you want.
There again you might want the EU to smack our arse without a wimper, but it won't work like that buddy, and my experience of life is if somebody will not supply you with a product others from somewhere else will do to make a buck, and there is not a lot of anything made in the EU we will be unable to get from other countries who will be more than happy to shove them aside without the jumping through hoops we have to do now.
You mean the German car industry wont be turning up! I'm shocked...
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''The value of the fishing industry to the British economy is tiny in comparative terms. It employs just 0.1% of the national workforce and contributes £1.4bn to the UK economy – or 0.1% of GDP''
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/oct/17/catches-quotas-and-communities-the-key-fisheries-issues-at-stake
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We have had those figures put in front of us for the last twelve months Syd, what were the figures before we joined the EU?
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https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/businessreview/2016/05/28/dont-blame-the-eu-for-the-troubles-of-the-fishing-industry-in-the-uk/
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We have had those figures put in front of us for the last twelve months Syd, what were the figures before we joined the EU?
Can't imagine why your last 'boy' left your employ selby maybe you could have a look yourself.
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You seem to have more time than me Syd I thought it would give you something to do.
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nope just more time efficient is all
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Maybe this will get the brexit boobies attention, nothing else appears to have.
''Car buyers face £1,900 additional cost in case of no-deal Brexit
Tariff hit for electric vehicles likely to be £2,800 per car, with risks to UK’s net zero plans''
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/oct/22/car-buyers-face-10-additional-cost-in-case-of-no-deal-brexit
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Get some purchase tax slammed on them as well, make them even dearer.
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Get some purchase tax slammed on them as well, make them even dearer.
And when all 27 EU countries do the same to British exports in response?
Is this one of the benefits of Brexit we kept being promised?
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I suspect Glyn it's mostly irrelevant because there won't be a no deal Brexit.
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Exactly BFYP, much to some on here's disgust.
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There is only one poster I can think of on this thread who has said they would be happy with no deal. Shall I go check who it is Selby?
He says in a post on this very page that there isn't anything the EU provides that we can't get from somewhere else...
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I suspect Glyn it's mostly irrelevant because there won't be a no deal Brexit.
I hope to God not, but this government is capable of f**king anything up.
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There is only one poster I can think of on this thread who has said they would be happy with no deal. Shall I go check who it is Selby?
He says in a post on this very page that there isn't anything the EU provides that we can't get from somewhere else...
At a higher price, of course.
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I thought a man of your means wouldn't be bothered about the price of anything Glyn.
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I thought a man of your means wouldn't be bothered about the price of anything Glyn.
Really, and what means are those, eh?
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Are you trying to tell me you are not the sophisticated well off man of the world I imagine you to be?
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Whatever you think you're usually wrong. So I haven't a clue what you think.
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And I suppose you are right all the time.
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It just looks like it when stood nest to you.
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It just looks like it when stood nest to you.
Except for spelling. 😉
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And I suppose you are right all the time.
There's only the plebs that voted leave Selby as I'm sure you've worked out yourself .
Well other than the traditional trade union movements such as the RMT and not the other sell out merchants , take your pick with that lot .
The traditional left such as Skinner , Scargill and everyone else who was against the EU for many years that we care to remember .
Come to think of it the working class were against the EU and voted accordingly whether they were trade union involved or not .
It's hardly these people who I've highlighted's fault the Labour movement decided in the mid 90's to sacrifice their traditional principles on the alter to pursuit power and trashing the tories at elections .
There's always a price to be paid further down the line mind .
The most incompetent group of Tory governments in their history since 2010 and yet ..........
There's a price to be paid for the Tories down the line too and make no mistake about that .
The Red Wall will return plus but don't ever think for one minute ticking that box in Barnsley East or Central is easy because it aint .
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I’m not so sure that only the plebs voted to leave.
I know quite a few leave voters and they had their reasons but I wouldn’t class any of the ones I know as plebs.
Democracy.
A bit like voting in a government I suppose.
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I’m not so sure that only the plebs voted to leave.
I know quite a few leave voters and they had their reasons but I would class any of the ones I know as plebs.
Democracy.
A bit like voting in a government I suppose.
Purely sarcasm on my part , you've read my post the wrong way .
The rhetoric that's played out these last four years is that the remainers are somehow better than leavers both politically and mainstream .
Which is amazing given they are prepared to accept neoliberalism on a grand scale and a total lack of democracy .
The Labour Movement sold out , it's a fact .
The referendum and subsequent elections paint the picture .
Without working class votes the Labour Party is finished and to rely on middle class support is clearly flawed given they lend their vote at best .
Anyone who places the middle class before the Red Wall in a strategy seemingly ends up the leader of the Labour Party these days .
I say it as I see it and I'm always going to vote Labour but feck me don't ever think it's not without a heavy heart .
I only vote Labour because of the Tories and that's a solid fact .
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I’m not so sure that only the plebs voted to leave.
I know quite a few leave voters and they had their reasons but I would class any of the ones I know as plebs.
Democracy.
A bit like voting in a government I suppose.
I think Tyke meant it tongue in cheek Hound, as a reference to the opinions some people seem to have of everyone who voted Leave.
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I’m not so sure that only the plebs voted to leave.
I know quite a few leave voters and they had their reasons but I would class any of the ones I know as plebs.
Democracy.
A bit like voting in a government I suppose.
Purely sarcasm on my part , you've read my post the wrong way .
The rhetoric that's played out these last four years is that the remainers are somehow better than leavers both politically and mainstream .
Which is amazing given they are prepared to accept neoliberalism on a grand scale and a total lack of democracy .
The Labour Movement sold out , it's a fact .
The referendum and subsequent elections paint the picture .
Without working class votes the Labour Party is finished and to rely on middle class support is clearly flawed given they lend their vote at best .
Anyone who places the middle class before the Red Wall in a strategy seemingly ends up the leader of the Labour Party these days .
I say it as I see it and I'm always going to vote Labour but feck me don't ever think it's not without a heavy heart .
I only vote Labour because of the Tories and that's a solid fact .
You posted that a split second before mine Tyke.
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I’m not so sure that only the plebs voted to leave.
I know quite a few leave voters and they had their reasons but I would class any of the ones I know as plebs.
Democracy.
A bit like voting in a government I suppose.
Purely sarcasm on my part , you've read my post the wrong way .
The rhetoric that's played out these last four years is that the remainers are somehow better than leavers both politically and mainstream .
Which is amazing given they are prepared to accept neoliberalism on a grand scale and a total lack of democracy .
The Labour Movement sold out , it's a fact .
The referendum and subsequent elections paint the picture .
Without working class votes the Labour Party is finished and to rely on middle class support is clearly flawed given they lend their vote at best .
Anyone who places the middle class before the Red Wall in a strategy seemingly ends up the leader of the Labour Party these days .
I say it as I see it and I'm always going to vote Labour but feck me don't ever think it's not without a heavy heart .
I only vote Labour because of the Tories and that's a solid fact .
These 'worrking class' votors that Labour is finished without - who are they going to vote for then? Are they going to continue to believe that the Tory Party has their best interests at heart? Because that is what you appear to be telling them to do.
You think leaving the EU, and making it more time consuming and expensive for British manufacturers to sell into their closest market, will benefit 'the working class'!
Brexit was a far-right concept, pushed by American billionaires (and the Russian state for their own reasons) to create a tax have in the UK, lower environmental, food, health & safety and working time regulations and benfit the super-rich at the expense of the working class.
That's what you voted for. You won. Brexit is done, finished. Get over it.
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These 'worrking class' votors that Labour is finished without - who are they going to vote for then? Are they going to continue to believe that the Tory Party has their best interests at heart? Because that is what you appear to be telling them to do.
I have said all along we NEED PR of some sort NOW and that imo is where the dispersed Labour voters who went Tory and Tories who dont want Labour could find a home
At the moment "hah" who would vote for the Green Party or The Liberal Party??? They both get laughed at / ridiculed as something akin to the Monster Raving Loony Party but they have some good poilicies and ideas and would grow their "fan base" IF they could get a fair crack of the whip'
Below is the table of what might have happened if PR of this type was used in the last GE December 2019 - where ONLY 43% of Votes cast went to Johnson and produced a "landslide" of 80 Seat majority
The Libs would have gained massively, the Greens would be 12 Seats better off . Lib Dems got 11.5 % of all the votes cast (so thats a great support for the 3rd Party) and yet they got just 1.7% of the Seats on offer.
Under the PR system they would have got 11.1% of all the Seats rewarding them and their supporters much much fairer
FPTP PR Change
Conservative 365 288 77 -
Brexit Party 0 10 10 +
Labour 202 216 14 +
Liberal Dem 11 70 59 +
Green Party 1 12 11 +
SNP 48 28 20 -
Plaid Cymru 4 4 0
DUP 8 6 2 -
Sinn Féin 7 4 3 -
SDLP 2 3 1 +
Alliance 1 3 2 +
UUP 0 2 2 +
Others 1 4 3 -
Much much fairer and who knows the Lib Dems might get stronger because the Voters fancy their Policies and ideas - and the Party would get heard more and promote those ideas. Disgruntled Tory voters who Vote Tory to avoid Labour might find a new home BUT the Tories have that majority and they have the most to lose - and as you will see would have got 77 Seats less for the same 43% SO THEY are never going to let it happen. It can only happen if Labour get in and campaign with the rest for what would be a fairer system and again imho be much fairer all round and less divisive
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Our system is utterly unfit for purpose.
Our Parliamentary system gives huge executive power to the PM and Cabinet. Even though the entire Opposition almost always win far more votes than the "winning" party, there is literally nothing concrete they can do to stop Govt policies being passed.
A system whereby 43-44% of the vote can win you 60+% of the seats can only remotely begin to work if the backbenchers on the winning side are prepared to hold the PM to account in the national interest.
But of course that never happens. A few principled ones do, but most go through the lobby that the whips tell them to.
It's been broken for years. There was a huge chance to fix it in 1997, but Blair reneged on the discussions he had been having with Ashdown on the issue. Precisely because he had a huge, docile majority and was able to rule unchallenged.
I'm quite sure we are never going to have a serious, functioning democracy in this country until we bring in serious PR. But I just don't see any mechanism for bringing in PR. It would mean both Labour and the Tories giving up the chance of unchallenged power in Govt.
Apart from the moral argument though, I find Labour's stance utterly self-defeating. In terms of votes cast, the sum of votes for left and left-leaning centrist parties has been a majority in every election bar one in the past 50 years. With proper PR, there would have been a near-permanent centre-left Govt in this country throughout my lifetime.
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And with the likelihood of centre left governments increasing, we'd see the Tories move toward the centre too. In the event we might not see more felt wing governments but we'd definitely expect to see fewer extremist policies and generally more government by a centrist concensus.
A bit more like Germany really.
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I’m not so sure that only the plebs voted to leave.
I know quite a few leave voters and they had their reasons but I would class any of the ones I know as plebs.
Democracy.
A bit like voting in a government I suppose.
Purely sarcasm on my part , you've read my post the wrong way .
The rhetoric that's played out these last four years is that the remainers are somehow better than leavers both politically and mainstream .
Which is amazing given they are prepared to accept neoliberalism on a grand scale and a total lack of democracy .
The Labour Movement sold out , it's a fact .
The referendum and subsequent elections paint the picture .
Without working class votes the Labour Party is finished and to rely on middle class support is clearly flawed given they lend their vote at best .
Anyone who places the middle class before the Red Wall in a strategy seemingly ends up the leader of the Labour Party these days .
I say it as I see it and I'm always going to vote Labour but feck me don't ever think it's not without a heavy heart .
I only vote Labour because of the Tories and that's a solid fact .
These 'worrking class' votors that Labour is finished without - who are they going to vote for then? Are they going to continue to believe that the Tory Party has their best interests at heart? Because that is what you appear to be telling them to do.
You think leaving the EU, and making it more time consuming and expensive for British manufacturers to sell into their closest market, will benefit 'the working class'!
Brexit was a far-right concept, pushed by American billionaires (and the Russian state for their own reasons) to create a tax have in the UK, lower environmental, food, health & safety and working time regulations and benfit the super-rich at the expense of the working class.
That's what you voted for. You won. Brexit is done, finished. Get over it.
The point I've tried to make Wilts several times on here and elsewhere is that the traditional left were always against the EU right from day one .
They failed to be heard in the referendum campaign in 2016 , the media concentrated on Farage , Johnson , Gove and JRM etc .
These values are still clearly prevalent amongst the working class across the north of england even to the point of voting tory in order to see the referendum result stand .
This point is hardly ever acknowledged , instead we get the middle classes looking down their noses and screaming thick northerners blah blah when clearly they don't know the history .
The Red Wall will return because what is done is done and Johnson and his henchmen are doing what tories do once they have your vote in the bag ...... who knew !!! .
But let's not believe for one minute that the Red Wall voters won't be holding their noses in four years time and ticking the Labour candidates box because they will .
Just because in normal times they haven't anywhere else to go doesn't alter the fact they've been sold down the river by the party and have deemed them irrelevant and not worth listening to including it's current leader .
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The Brexit scenario would have been interesting under PR since it tended to unite those on left and right against the centre.
I expect the numbers would have still favoured the centre but the way the discontent was rising along with the UKIP vote, well, who knows.
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Tyke
Aye, and the point I've been making for years is that those people on the Bennite Left who wanted Brexit and voted for it (and I will go to my grave convinced that Corbyn is one of them) were criminally naive in not seeing what sort of Brexit they were going to enable.
The Bennite Left has for decades seen the EU as a barrier to a Socialist Utopia. That may well be true. But it was also a barrier to the rabid excesses of a far-right free-market society.
The Bennite Left who voted Leave almost certainly tipped the balance. They have opened the Pandora's box of a far-right controlled Brexit while not advancing the road to socialism by one inch.
It is a classic example of naive, emotional self-indulgence over rational consideration.
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Tyke
Aye, and the point I've been making for years is that those people on the Bennite Left who wanted Brexit and voted for it (and I will go to my grave convinced that Corbyn is one of them) were criminally naive in not seeing what sort of Brexit they were going to enable.
The Bennite Left has for decades seen the EU as a barrier to a Socialist Utopia. That may well be true. But it was also a barrier to the rabid excesses of a far-right free-market society.
The Bennite Left who voted Leave almost certainly tipped the balance. They have opened the Pandora's box of a far-right controlled Brexit while not advancing the road to socialism by one inch.
It is a classic example of naive, emotional self-indulgence over rational consideration.
There is no socialist utopia Billy even I know that , total socialism doesn't work , a mixed economy most certainly does .
This goes deeper than economic ideology in the red wall .
The red wall doesn't much care for multiculturalism , gay rights this and black lifes matter that because they've all on keeping their own heads above water every time they are sacrificed on the alter of corporate profit and shareholder value , competing with Eastern Europeans for race to the bottom jobs on agency's and ZHC's , we all know who started this debacle don't we ?
The Labour Party needs to cut this shyte out focusing on minorities and just start speaking for everyone as a single group , please spare me the workers of the world unite shyte , if tha can find me one Pole who won't stab you in the back for an hours overtime he'll be lonely .
I make no apologies for my words , I know it doesn't fit the Labour Party of today but I speak as I've found over a good number of years .
Besides someone has to speak for the working class because no bugga else does .
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Tyke.
The Labour party has to be a coalition of interests or it is finished. The Labour party will not win power EVER by focussing on working class nationalism. Because the number of people who that attracts is tiny. The traditional working class is a fraction of the size it was 50 years ago. Labour HAS to appeal to urban, outward looking, young, multicultural professionals at least as much as it does to the working class.
There;s no choice in that. Corbyn lost that metropolitan young section of support in early 2019, when he moved to accommodating and facilitating the Tory Brexit. The result was the lowest poll ratings and the lowest national election vote share for Labour since 1918.
It's your choice. You can insist we have it all on your terms. You can demand that the Labour party becomes an economic nationalist one which puts up walls to the rest of the world if you want. I will guarantee you that if that happens, Labour wouldn't get into power again in our lifetimes. Or you can compromise. Address the world as it is, rather than as you ideally want it to be. Accept that fact that there are other people who support Labour who profoundly disagree with your opinion on minorities and immigrants. And find an accommodation that gives each side something of what they want. Instead of what you did over Brexit, which was to ensure that no-one in the Labour movement got what they want beyond an impotent lashing out.
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PR in 2016 would have seen a very strong Brexit party and a probable coalition with the Tories and probably Labour having to back brexit to be credible under Corbyn who would have been able to back his own convictions instead of cow tailing to the do gooders.
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Tyke.
The Labour party has to be a coalition of interests or it is finished. The Labour party will not win power EVER by focussing on working class nationalism. Because the number of people who that attracts is tiny. The traditional working class is a fraction of the size it was 50 years ago. Labour HAS to appeal to urban, outward looking, young, multicultural professionals at least as much as it does to the working class.
There;s no choice in that. Corbyn lost that metropolitan young section of support in early 2019, when he moved to accommodating and facilitating the Tory Brexit. The result was the lowest poll ratings and the lowest national election vote share for Labour since 1918.
It's your choice. You can insist we have it all on your terms. You can demand that the Labour party becomes an economic nationalist one which puts up walls to the rest of the world if you want. I will guarantee you that if that happens, Labour wouldn't get into power again in our lifetimes. Or you can compromise. Address the world as it is, rather than as you ideally want it to be. Accept that fact that there are other people who support Labour who profoundly disagree with your opinion on minorities and immigrants. And find an accommodation that gives each side something of what they want. Instead of what you did over Brexit, which was to ensure that no-one in the Labour movement got what they want beyond an impotent lashing out.
There is no compromise to be found within the liberal left , there is no compromise within the centre of the Labour Party .
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PR in 2016 would have seen a very strong Brexit party and a probable coalition with the Tories and probably Labour having to back brexit to be credible under Corbyn who would have been able to back his own convictions instead of cow tailing to the do gooders.
Mad how everyone who has an opinion that isn't yours you label a "do-gooder". Then again, when you have the Home Secretary labelling legal professionals trying to stop the government breaking the law as "activist lawyers", I suppose that's to be expected.
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These 'worrking class' votors that Labour is finished without - who are they going to vote for then? Are they going to continue to believe that the Tory Party has their best interests at heart? Because that is what you appear to be telling them to do.
I have said all along we NEED PR of some sort NOW and that imo is where the dispersed Labour voters who went Tory and Tories who dont want Labour could find a home
At the moment "hah" who would vote for the Green Party or The Liberal Party??? They both get laughed at / ridiculed as something akin to the Monster Raving Loony Party but they have some good poilicies and ideas and would grow their "fan base" IF they could get a fair crack of the whip'
Below is the table of what might have happened if PR of this type was used in the last GE December 2019 - where ONLY 43% of Votes cast went to Johnson and produced a "landslide" of 80 Seat majority
The Libs would have gained massively, the Greens would be 12 Seats better off . Lib Dems got 11.5 % of all the votes cast (so thats a great support for the 3rd Party) and yet they got just 1.7% of the Seats on offer.
Under the PR system they would have got 11.1% of all the Seats rewarding them and their supporters much much fairer
FPTP PR Change
Conservative 365 288 77 -
Brexit Party 0 10 10 +
Labour 202 216 14 +
Liberal Dem 11 70 59 +
Green Party 1 12 11 +
SNP 48 28 20 -
Plaid Cymru 4 4 0
DUP 8 6 2 -
Sinn Féin 7 4 3 -
SDLP 2 3 1 +
Alliance 1 3 2 +
UUP 0 2 2 +
Others 1 4 3 -
Much much fairer and who knows the Lib Dems might get stronger because the Voters fancy their Policies and ideas - and the Party would get heard more and promote those ideas. Disgruntled Tory voters who Vote Tory to avoid Labour might find a new home BUT the Tories have that majority and they have the most to lose - and as you will see would have got 77 Seats less for the same 43% SO THEY are never going to let it happen. It can only happen if Labour get in and campaign with the rest for what would be a fairer system and again imho be much fairer all round and less divisive
I prefer STV, which is a form of PR, 100% agree things need to change though. As what's been said and proven with figures numerous times we are a country that largely votes center-left parties, yet we have a far right government currently, that isn't representative of the country. The figures you've posted too would change anyway as people wouldn't just vote for one of the two parties due to their voices not being heard, they'd actually be able to vote for Greens or UKIP and see some representation.
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PR in 2016 would have seen a very strong Brexit party and a probable coalition with the Tories and probably Labour having to back brexit to be credible under Corbyn who would have been able to back his own convictions instead of cow tailing to the do gooders.
If we'd had PR from 1997, there would never have been a Brexit Party.
Very few people cared much about the EU before 2010, outside the rabid right wing fringe of the Tory party.
UKIP were irrelevant then.
And then we had the lunacy of Austerity. Working benefits cut. Stagnant wages for years. People understandably getting pissed off at working harder and getting poorer.
And Farage jumped on that and started getting traction that it was all down to competition from immigrant workers and that was the fault of the EU.
And UKIP started taking support from the Tories.
And Cameron addressed that by offering the Referendum if he won in 2015, never expecting to win an outright majority in 2015.
None of that would have happened with PR. The Tories wouldn't have been in power in 2010. There would have been a Lab/LD coalition. Farage would have remained an impotent gobshite, stirring up a few thousand Colonel Blimp type golf club bores, like he did before he got his chance. The EU would have remained the 8th or 9th most important thing on people's list of political priorities. Even if 2010-15 had played out as it did, the Tories would not have had a majority to get a Referendum through Parliament in 2015.
So, the Referendum would never have happened with PR. We would have been a far less volatile and riven society and we wouldn't have this tit as PM in the biggest crisis in 75 years.
And if you disagree with any of that, I strongly suggest you go and have a look at the opinion polls from 2005-2010 before you respond. Go and see how irrelevant Farage and UKIP were. And how little people really cared about the EU.
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All you have done is highlight how under PR things can change in a ten year period, who is arguing about the period before I was pointing out that PR could have brought about a far more right wing coalition, and forced the lefties to take up a brexit stance to remain relevant as a party under that voting system.
Preach to the deciples buddy.
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Selby
We do not have a right wing majority in this country. As I said earlier there have been 14 elections since 1970, and in only one of those (2015) have right wing parties won 50% of the vote.
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An interesting piece about Brexit and the tension between the federalist and the nationalism in the EU.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/25/brexit-was-no-aberration-the-european-union-needs-to-learn-from-it
Personally I think federalism has always been the long game. Overtime the EU has encroached more and more into the territory of national identity. The Euro currency though was a step change. In some European nations its just accepted as fact, a political good and a goal.
In the UK though, the federalist ambition was always denied to reassure about UK membership and I think think there was a certain dishonesty in that. Perhaps if they had been more open about where things were going long ago then either the UK would have bought into the project more wholeheartedly. Or left much sooner before it became so integrated.
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This isn't quite what the Tories and UKIP/Brexit Party were promising Brexit would deliver is it? Funny, the newspapers don't seem to have picked up on this story either.
Net migration targets & £35,800 salary threshold scrapped.
https://workpermit.com/news/net-uk-migration-targets-ps35800-salary-threshold-scrapped-20201026
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We could be in for an interesting election next time around. Labour will have purged itself of the hard left and hopefully got rid of the Corbynistas and the Borisettes will have departed taking the hard right with them. Who knows we could end up with a centrist party which I am sure is exactly what many people want. Lets face it the only reason Doris is in power is due to the dislike of Corbyn and the Lies and lets get rid of all the foreigners voters who got us Brexit and all the problems that come with it.
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We could be in for an interesting election next time around. Labour will have purged itself of the hard left and hopefully got rid of the Corbynistas and the Borisettes will have departed taking the hard right with them. Who knows we could end up with a centrist party which I am sure is exactly what many people want. Lets face it the only reason Doris is in power is due to the dislike of Corbyn and the Lies and lets get rid of all the foreigners voters who got us Brexit and all the problems that come with it.
Are you seriously saying that all those die-hard socialists in the North-East voted Tory for the first time in their lives because they preferred Johnson to Corbyn?
You're missing the point, like a lot do on here, that the hard left have been anti-EU for decades, and the left doesn't come much harder than in the North-East.
Starmer won't get that lot back onside by kicking out the hard left.
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Dislike of the EU is not a badge of honour SS is shows a misunderstanding of it and a readiness to believe the b*llocks.
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Dislike of the EU is not a badge of honour SS is shows a misunderstanding of it and a readiness to believe the b*llocks.
Which has nothing whatsoever to do with my post Sydney.
The North-East is Starmer's problem.
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SS.
I'm guessing you missed Peter Kellner from YouGov about 3-4 months ago? Analysing polling data. He reckons Labour have re-taken the lead in pretty much all the Red Wall seats.
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SS.
I'm guessing you missed Peter Kellner from YouGov about 3-4 months ago? Analysing polling data. He reckons Labour have re-taken the lead in pretty much all the Red Wall seats.
That was before the internal wranglings with the hard left that could now be starting.
That was the point of my post.
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I take your point SS that brexit had nothing to do with the election of johnson.
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I take your point SS that brexit had nothing to do with the election of johnson.
What? Sydney, you've a real problem with understanding semantics.
Go back and read my posts very carefully.
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I do understand your previous comment SS and maybe my comment wasn't as clear, which was aimed at those voters and their dislike/distrust of ....(ammended) the EU
I'm tired of all this shit we have swapped johnson for the EU we should be happy.
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I do understand your previous comment SS and maybe my comment wasn't as clear, which was aimed at those voters and their dislike/distrust of ....(ammended) the EU
I'm tired of all this shit we have swapped johnson for the EU we should be happy.
We?
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OK not you hound
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Ha.
Have you sneaked back to the UK.
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Apologies I forgot I was dealing with the little britain brigade
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I just don’t understand why you have to say “we” when you talk about Brexit or what goes on in the UK.
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There's a lot of stuff you don't understand hound but don't worry tomorrow's a new day lots of time for more questions.
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Well you can ask away in the morning then.
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I do understand your previous comment SS and maybe my comment wasn't as clear, which was aimed at those voters and their dislike/distrust of ....(ammended) the EU
I'm tired of all this shit we have swapped johnson for the EU we should be happy.
No we've ditched the EU for what ever the country elects in four years time , Johnson's made sure that the vote stood , nothing more nothing less .
The future outside of the EU has yet to be defined in my opinion .
It's a slow burn is this Sydney and will cover more than the election we had last year .
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I agree Tyke it's a slow burn but as the link put up the other day from the ex-BOE bod emphasised, with an EU deal there is only one way brexit will effect the economy and it's going to cost. Whether there is a political penalty to pay by anyone that will be determined either on the way or at the next election.
If Biden gets it up the indicators are there is no hurry to sign a trade deal, that of course may change when reality bites and the dog catches the car, there will be one hell of a lot of work to do.
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Another scaremonger, what would he know aye?
''Bailey said failure to agree to a deal before the Brexit transition expires at the end of December would cause disruption to cross-border trade and damage the goodwill between London and Brussels needed to build a future economic partnership''
''No-deal Brexit to cost more than Covid, Bank of England governor says
Andrew Bailey said failure to agree to deal would cause long-term damage to UK economy''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/23/no-deal-brexit-to-cost-more-than-covid-bank-of-england-governor-says
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Sydney.
I heard precisely the same last night on the radio from the ex-hesd civil servant at the Dept for Exiting the EU.
He said the projections were that COVID would reduce GDP by 1.5% over the medium term. Leaving the EU with a decent deal would give us a 5% GDP hit over the medium term. That's equivalent to losing the entire amount that we spend on running schools and colleges each year.
And that is the best case scenario with a good deal. Leave with no deal and we lose the entire Education, Defence and Policing budgets.
Still. We took back control, eh?
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You'd want to hope that Frost and the other negtiators are given every assistance to come up with some semblance of a deal.
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PR in 2016 would have seen a very strong Brexit party and a probable coalition with the Tories and probably Labour having to back brexit to be credible under Corbyn who would have been able to back his own convictions instead of cow tailing to the do gooders.
If we'd had PR from 1997, there would never have been a Brexit Party.
Very few people cared much about the EU before 2010, outside the rabid right wing fringe of the Tory party.
UKIP were irrelevant then.
And then we had the lunacy of Austerity. Working benefits cut. Stagnant wages for years. People understandably getting pissed off at working harder and getting poorer.
And Farage jumped on that and started getting traction that it was all down to competition from immigrant workers and that was the fault of the EU.
And UKIP started taking support from the Tories.
And Cameron addressed that by offering the Referendum if he won in 2015, never expecting to win an outright majority in 2015.
None of that would have happened with PR. The Tories wouldn't have been in power in 2010. There would have been a Lab/LD coalition. Farage would have remained an impotent gobshite, stirring up a few thousand Colonel Blimp type golf club bores, like he did before he got his chance. The EU would have remained the 8th or 9th most important thing on people's list of political priorities. Even if 2010-15 had played out as it did, the Tories would not have had a majority to get a Referendum through Parliament in 2015.
So, the Referendum would never have happened with PR. We would have been a far less volatile and riven society and we wouldn't have this tit as PM in the biggest crisis in 75 years.
And if you disagree with any of that, I strongly suggest you go and have a look at the opinion polls from 2005-2010 before you respond. Go and see how irrelevant Farage and UKIP were. And how little people really cared about the EU.
UKIP was not as important then because the BNP was on a roll at the time.
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PR in 2016 would have seen a very strong Brexit party and a probable coalition with the Tories and probably Labour having to back brexit to be credible under Corbyn who would have been able to back his own convictions instead of cow tailing to the do gooders.
If we'd had PR from 1997, there would never have been a Brexit Party.
Very few people cared much about the EU before 2010, outside the rabid right wing fringe of the Tory party.
UKIP were irrelevant then.
And then we had the lunacy of Austerity. Working benefits cut. Stagnant wages for years. People understandably getting pissed off at working harder and getting poorer.
And Farage jumped on that and started getting traction that it was all down to competition from immigrant workers and that was the fault of the EU.
And UKIP started taking support from the Tories.
And Cameron addressed that by offering the Referendum if he won in 2015, never expecting to win an outright majority in 2015.
None of that would have happened with PR. The Tories wouldn't have been in power in 2010. There would have been a Lab/LD coalition. Farage would have remained an impotent gobshite, stirring up a few thousand Colonel Blimp type golf club bores, like he did before he got his chance. The EU would have remained the 8th or 9th most important thing on people's list of political priorities. Even if 2010-15 had played out as it did, the Tories would not have had a majority to get a Referendum through Parliament in 2015.
So, the Referendum would never have happened with PR. We would have been a far less volatile and riven society and we wouldn't have this tit as PM in the biggest crisis in 75 years.
And if you disagree with any of that, I strongly suggest you go and have a look at the opinion polls from 2005-2010 before you respond. Go and see how irrelevant Farage and UKIP were. And how little people really cared about the EU.
UKIP was not as important then because the BNP was on a roll at the time.
So you couldn't be bothered to take my advice and look at the numbers before giving us your opinion?
In terms of voter support, the BNP was irrelevant, as were UKIP.
In 2005, they got 0.7% of the General Election vote. UKIP got 2.2%.
They got 1.8% of the vote in 2010. UKIP got 3%. Between them, they were barely a blip on the landscape. They were far right loonies, screaming into the void. Neither of them would have got a seat in a sensible PR system, which requires a minimum percentage of the vote to get a seat, precisely to stop the extreme nutter from getting exposure.
By 2013, after 3 years of Austerity, that had all changed. UKIP were getting 20-odd% in the polls, bizarrely, much of it from disgruntled ex-Lib Dem voters and most of the rest from the Tories. Labour were 10% in the polls. The economy was tanking. The Tories were panicking and that's when Cameron promised a Brexit Referendum to see off the UKIP threat.
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PR in 2016 would have seen a very strong Brexit party and a probable coalition with the Tories and probably Labour having to back brexit to be credible under Corbyn who would have been able to back his own convictions instead of cow tailing to the do gooders.
If we'd had PR from 1997, there would never have been a Brexit Party.
Very few people cared much about the EU before 2010, outside the rabid right wing fringe of the Tory party.
UKIP were irrelevant then.
And then we had the lunacy of Austerity. Working benefits cut. Stagnant wages for years. People understandably getting pissed off at working harder and getting poorer.
And Farage jumped on that and started getting traction that it was all down to competition from immigrant workers and that was the fault of the EU.
And UKIP started taking support from the Tories.
And Cameron addressed that by offering the Referendum if he won in 2015, never expecting to win an outright majority in 2015.
None of that would have happened with PR. The Tories wouldn't have been in power in 2010. There would have been a Lab/LD coalition. Farage would have remained an impotent gobshite, stirring up a few thousand Colonel Blimp type golf club bores, like he did before he got his chance. The EU would have remained the 8th or 9th most important thing on people's list of political priorities. Even if 2010-15 had played out as it did, the Tories would not have had a majority to get a Referendum through Parliament in 2015.
So, the Referendum would never have happened with PR. We would have been a far less volatile and riven society and we wouldn't have this tit as PM in the biggest crisis in 75 years.
And if you disagree with any of that, I strongly suggest you go and have a look at the opinion polls from 2005-2010 before you respond. Go and see how irrelevant Farage and UKIP were. And how little people really cared about the EU.
UKIP was not as important then because the BNP was on a roll at the time.
So you couldn't be bothered to take my advice and look at the numbers before giving us your opinion?
In terms of voter support, the BNP was irrelevant, as were UKIP.
In 2005, they got 0.7% of the General Election vote. UKIP got 2.2%.
They got 1.8% of the vote in 2010. UKIP got 3%. Between them, they were barely a blip on the landscape. They were far right loonies, screaming into the void. Neither of them would have got a seat in a sensible PR system, which requires a minimum percentage of the vote to get a seat, precisely to stop the extreme nutter from getting exposure.
By 2013, after 3 years of Austerity, that had all changed. UKIP were getting 20-odd% in the polls, bizarrely, much of it from disgruntled ex-Lib Dem voters and most of the rest from the Tories. Labour were 10% in the polls. The economy was tanking. The Tories were panicking and that's when Cameron promised a Brexit Referendum to see off the UKIP threat.
They got enough votes and council seats over the years to put the frighteners on the LibLabCon clique. They may have been irrelevant in gaining seats, but you don't always need to do that to force other people to change direction and think hard about why people were voting for them.
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I can't wait for all these doom prophecies to come to fruition especially if they are as good as the science has been about the number of covid deaths
were.
With experts and scientist like those we could do with a few amateurs having a go and a lottery to get some money in.
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I can't wait for all these doom prophecies to come to fruition especially if they are as good as the science has been about the number of covid deaths
were.
With experts and scientist like those we could do with a few amateurs having a go and a lottery to get some money in.
If you listened to all these self appointed so called experts on everything in the headlines such as climate, Brexit and covid you could well be forgiven for jumping off Beachy Head without a parachute! We're all doomed I tell ye!
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I can't wait for all these doom prophecies to come to fruition especially if they are as good as the science has been about the number of covid deaths
were.
With experts and scientist like those we could do with a few amateurs having a go and a lottery to get some money in.
Are you talking about the projection of the number of covid deaths in a scenario in which the goverment took no action to stop the spread of a deadly disease - or some other ones? Beacuse its' good that nobody serious in powere decided to see if they would come true or not - and decided to put in measures designed to achieve the not.
Lets hope they are wise enough to do the same over an EU deal.
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I can't wait for all these doom prophecies to come to fruition especially if they are as good as the science has been about the number of covid deaths
were.
With experts and scientist like those we could do with a few amateurs having a go and a lottery to get some money in.
Are you talking about the projection of the number of covid deaths in a scenario in which the goverment took no action to stop the spread of a deadly disease - or some other ones? Beacuse its' good that nobody serious in powere decided to see if they would come true or not - and decided to put in measures designed to achieve the not.
Lets hope they are wise enough to do the same over an EU deal.
The projections from the likes of Keep it in your trousers Ferguson, who seldom gets any prediction right, or Dim Whitty and his side kick who always go over the top.
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We could always just do what the Germans and French are good at, sign a treaty and then just break it.
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Selby.
We already HAVE broken the Withdrawal Agreement treaty that was overwhelmingly voted for by Parliament in January.
Which treaties have the French and Germans broken?
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Selby.
We already HAVE broken the Withdrawal Agreement treaty that was overwhelmingly voted for by Parliament in January.
Which treaties have the French and Germans broken?
The Treaty of Versailles was a pretty big one.
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That’s kind of been dealt with 70-80 years ago..
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That’s kind of been dealt with 70-80 years ago..
If that's the case why are peopling still going on about what the British Empire did two hundred years ago?
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Some wrongs take longer to put right, perhaps.?
I don’t think we should ignore history, but learn from it.
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The Russians were a bit miffed with the Germans at one point.
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I have, on a number of occasions, asked leavers to post a single, quantifiable, benefit of Brexit without any serious replies coming forward. Well, though I still remain very sceptical about Brexit and it's impact on the UK as a whole, I have just found a genuine benefit of Brexit....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55167473
Whilst the Farmers Union appear to be opposed to it, this can only be a good thing and should be welcomed by all sides of the argument.
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Indeed it is good Kato live animal shipments have never been a good option and virtually unregulated treatment at the other end
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Farming subsidies are now to be paid on the environmental efforts farmers make rather than the amount of land they have. Maybe we will see some hedge rows coming back?
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I think it counts as promoting Hedge Funds.
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Slightly subjective but there is some.merit that not being in the EU procurement strategies has helped get vaccines more quickly too.
More than a bit naughty saying it's why we've approved the vaccine though. Interesting to see who's right and who's wrong in that argument.
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Farming subsidies are now to be paid on the environmental efforts farmers make rather than the amount of land they have. Maybe we will see some hedge rows coming back?
Myself and some friends planted two sizeable hedgerows on Sunday morning.
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Slightly subjective but there is some.merit that not being in the EU procurement strategies has helped get vaccines more quickly too.
More than a bit naughty saying it's why we've approved the vaccine though. Interesting to see who's right and who's wrong in that argument.
Possibly, but it is only through us still following EU rules and thus having access to the EU clinicals trials data that we were able to certify the vaccine so quickly.
https://twitter.com/G_Boccaletti/status/1334451638552190977
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Farming subsidies are now to be paid on the environmental efforts farmers make rather than the amount of land they have. Maybe we will see some hedge rows coming back?
Myself and some friends planted two sizeable hedgerows on Sunday morning.
It would be nice to think so, although as the vast majority of land that is farmed is owned by people who don't make their money from farming (James Dyson, Duke of Westmister etc) then I guess it won't make much of difference to them anyway. Maybe of hound does it for free and then they claim the money?
It was disapointing that they are still allowing the destruction of grouse moors though. How many more floods will it take to realise the best way to stop flood water running off the hills is to keep it there.
Well done hound (and friends) btw.
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At last, some good news for a change....
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/statement_20_2346?fbclid=IwAR3qeMycWoiQ0fa5Y7O9qy1VPZlU4sgpbTWkPywW31jwtoBOyPlfFSysEOI
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Farming subsidies are now to be paid on the environmental efforts farmers make rather than the amount of land they have. Maybe we will see some hedge rows coming back?
Myself and some friends planted two sizeable hedgerows on Sunday morning.
I will be planting a native hedgerow in the next couple of months. I get the bare root ones from a nursery in Essex. The last one I did was a mixture, the birds loved it.
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At last, some good news for a change....
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/statement_20_2346?fbclid=IwAR3qeMycWoiQ0fa5Y7O9qy1VPZlU4sgpbTWkPywW31jwtoBOyPlfFSysEOI
Political will makes deals. Still would surprise me if they don't agree a deal, they will want to make it look like a win but a win with a done deal.
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As far as I can see, this "deal" announced today is nothing more that the UK agreeing that we will actually stick to the treaty that we signed in January, and not break international law.
What a f**king charade...
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At last, some good news for a change....
https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/statement_20_2346?fbclid=IwAR3qeMycWoiQ0fa5Y7O9qy1VPZlU4sgpbTWkPywW31jwtoBOyPlfFSysEOI
We'll know if it's good news or not when they bother to tell the rest of us the details.
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As far as I can see, this "deal" announced today is nothing more that the UK agreeing that we will actually stick to the treaty that we signed in January, and not break international law.
What a f**king charade...
Agreed. And when I posted the link on another forum, (maggotdowners - a fishing forum), as a positive the immediate response was....
As long as the EU keep their word.
You couldnt make it up!
Oh, and it seems that if you disagree with the 'Brexiteer Masses' then they use a 'deter' function in their forum software to deliver rediculously slow responses to deter people from posting.
Meanwhile they are happy for people on there to post things like "migrants should be shot on the beaches and at the airports". Seriously!
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We really are through the looking glass NNK, when the UK Govt today finally agreeing that it will abide by an agreement that it signed to massive fanfare 14 months ago is touted as a great breakthrough. An agreement that will require goods going from GB to Northern Ireland having customs checks, despite Johnson insisting through the General Election campaign that it wouldn't. If we don't hold to account politicians who deceive people like this, I don't know where we go.
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Almost beyond belief that with a few days left and 4 and a half years gone since the Brexit vote, we are still in this situation.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1336633624825827330
It was ALWAYS so obvious. There is no way that we get tariff-free access to the Single Market without signing up to stick to the same rules that the rest of the countries in the Single Market play by.
Surely everyone can see that? If we get a preferential situation, whereby we get all the benefits of staying in the SM, while having the right to ignore future rules in the SM, the SM immediately ceases to exist. Because why would any other country accept anything less that we have? Why should they have to stick to the rules to get the benefits if we don't? Then the whole concept of a SINGLE market evaporates, if every country opts into what it wants and out of what it doesn't want. So the European countries were NEVER going to let us have a deal like that.
Christ, the logic is so simple, a bright 6 year old could follow it. But it's been ignored and pushed aside for 4.5 years. And now here we are. We either accept that reality, or a far harder one will smack us in the face.
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And meanwhile, that odious little shite Gove was on the radio this morning being asked about the consequences of him agreeing yesterday that we wouldn't break International Law. The interviewer pointed out that the result of the agreement he made yesterday was that, as everyone was saying back 12 months ago - Johnson was a liar. he had insisted that there would be no customs checks in the Irish Sea between GB and NI. And the interviewer said to Gove, isn't it now finally agreed that goods going between GB and NI WILL have to be checked?
And Gove, that consummate bullshitter and deceiver, replied, "No...ah...ahh...it IS the case that goods travelling between NI and GB will not require checks."
Absolute 10 storey t**t of a man. Look at what he did there. And ask yourself how debased you have to be to allow yourself to be guided by a deceiving bas**rd like that.
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Almost beyond belief that with a few days left and 4 and a half years gone since the Brexit vote, we are still in this situation.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1336633624825827330
It was ALWAYS so obvious. There is no way that we get tariff-free access to the Single Market without signing up to stick to the same rules that the rest of the countries in the Single Market play by.
Surely everyone can see that? If we get a preferential situation, whereby we get all the benefits of staying in the SM, while having the right to ignore future rules in the SM, the SM immediately ceases to exist. Because why would any other country accept anything less that we have? Why should they have to stick to the rules to get the benefits if we don't? Then the whole concept of a SINGLE market evaporates, if every country opts into what it wants and out of what it doesn't want. So the European countries were NEVER going to let us have a deal like that.
Christ, the logic is so simple, a bright 6 year old could follow it. But it's been ignored and pushed aside for 4.5 years. And now here we are. We either accept that reality, or a far harder one will smack us in the face.
Is it not slightly disingenuous to portray our current negotiating position in that way? I don't doubt that the Brexit dream may very well have been sold to the public on the basis of how easy it would be to have all of the benefits (access to the Single Market being a big one) with none of the commitment to the EU project. But surely the negotiation is slightly more nuanced than that in these final stages of discussion.
My understanding is that we're asking for something similar to the free trade agreement that the EU offered to Canada. The EU I believe have historically confirmed that such a deal would be possible - I don't have it to hand but I do recall Barnier or someone similar offering that to us many months ago. However is it not the case that the EU have shifted their position on that and they are now only prepared to offer us a deal that is actually manifestly worse than the deal they offered to Canada, particularly on the subject of state aid/subsidies? To suggest our negotiating position as we sit here today is somehow now asking for the earth does seem a little misrepresentative of where the negotiations appear to be. That the EU will only offer a deal that is more onerous on us than one they have done with Canada is entirely their prerogative, (we chose to leave after all!) but I don't agree
with your depiction that the UK are currently the villains in this, no matter how much you believe in the EU project and disagree with the decision to leave and the reasons behind the vote to do so.
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Tommy, do you not think our negotiating postion, or at least how we might act after signing a deal, might have been somewhat altered in the minds of the people we are negotiating with once we decided it is fine to break international law 'in a specific and limited fashion'?
And Canada have to follow EU agricultural standards in that deal. Which has actually seen their exports fall:
https://www.ft.com/content/c72634da-2006-11ea-b8a1-584213ee7b2b
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Liar Johnson's actual words on the Irish Sea to the DUP Conference in 2018
"Now, I have to tell you that no British Conservative government could or should sign up to any such arrangement," he added.
Mr. Johnson replaced Theresa May as Prime Minister in July and repeated his promise that there would be no border in the Irish Sea.
However, on Thursday, Prime Minister Johnson agreed a new treaty with the European Union that involves a border in the Irish Sea.
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No breakthrough tonight then. Sounds like Sunday is endex.
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Almost beyond belief that with a few days left and 4 and a half years gone since the Brexit vote, we are still in this situation.
https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1336633624825827330
It was ALWAYS so obvious. There is no way that we get tariff-free access to the Single Market without signing up to stick to the same rules that the rest of the countries in the Single Market play by.
Surely everyone can see that? If we get a preferential situation, whereby we get all the benefits of staying in the SM, while having the right to ignore future rules in the SM, the SM immediately ceases to exist. Because why would any other country accept anything less that we have? Why should they have to stick to the rules to get the benefits if we don't? Then the whole concept of a SINGLE market evaporates, if every country opts into what it wants and out of what it doesn't want. So the European countries were NEVER going to let us have a deal like that.
Christ, the logic is so simple, a bright 6 year old could follow it. But it's been ignored and pushed aside for 4.5 years. And now here we are. We either accept that reality, or a far harder one will smack us in the face.
Is it not slightly disingenuous to portray our current negotiating position in that way? I don't doubt that the Brexit dream may very well have been sold to the public on the basis of how easy it would be to have all of the benefits (access to the Single Market being a big one) with none of the commitment to the EU project. But surely the negotiation is slightly more nuanced than that in these final stages of discussion.
My understanding is that we're asking for something similar to the free trade agreement that the EU offered to Canada. The EU I believe have historically confirmed that such a deal would be possible - I don't have it to hand but I do recall Barnier or someone similar offering that to us many months ago. However is it not the case that the EU have shifted their position on that and they are now only prepared to offer us a deal that is actually manifestly worse than the deal they offered to Canada, particularly on the subject of state aid/subsidies? To suggest our negotiating position as we sit here today is somehow now asking for the earth does seem a little misrepresentative of where the negotiations appear to be. That the EU will only offer a deal that is more onerous on us than one they have done with Canada is entirely their prerogative, (we chose to leave after all!) but I don't agree
with your depiction that the UK are currently the villains in this, no matter how much you believe in the EU project and disagree with the decision to leave and the reasons behind the vote to do so.
Tommy. I think there has been a lot of misrepresenting what a Canada type deal means.
The UK has wanted the letter of a Canada deal, where we get tariff-free access to the SM, but without having to follow all the SM rules. That works for Canada because it only does about 50bn Euros of trade with the EU every year. It would be ridiculous to expect Canada to follow all the SM rules for trade which is only about 5% of all the international trade that Canada does and lss than 1% of the entire EU international trade.
The UK is a totally different case. We do more than half our international trade with the EU and trade with us accounts for over 10% of the total EU international trade. Canada having different standards barely makes a difference to the SM. Us having different standards would fundamentally undermine the principle of the SM.
My reading of the EU suggesting a Canada-type deal 2-3 years ago, was that they were saying we could have tariff-free access but be outside the CU, just like Canada. But they have been consistent from the very start in saying that this would come with the requirement that the UK wasn't free to undercut EU countries by opting out of SM rules. there has never been any question of the EU accepting that and Tory politicians bewilderedly saying "Why can't they let us have a deal like Canada?" meaning why can't we have tariff-free access and not stick to the rules is disingenuously playing the domestic audience.
And now we are finally at the crunch. Johnson knows there is no way the EU will budge on that. So either he backs down or we leave with the No Deal that was never discussed in 2016, and that only a minority of the country have ever supported.
And, apparently, that is the sacred will of the people and anyone who questions it is a traitor to democracy.
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To plagiarise a football chant..
“4 and a half years, and you f**ked it up”..!!
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Our friends in the EU are currently insisting that if they pass a new law in the future with which we in this country do not comply or don't follow suit, then they want the automatic right to punish us and to retaliate.
they are saying that the UK should be the only country in the world not to have sovereign control over its fishing waters.
Who in their right mind would accept the above? And whilst we do not make the most of our own quota currently, it’s the principle that is key, not the waters or fish.
We’ve got some short term pain coming. I think that was always the case. Deal or no deal.
Regarding food supplies, I won’t be paying through the nose for overinflated french foie gras from Waitrose next year. I’ll settle for some British bred chicken livers instead.
And I’ll be taking Camembert and Gouda of my cheese board and sticking to cheddar.
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As far as I can see, this "deal" announced today is nothing more that the UK agreeing that we will actually stick to the treaty that we signed in January, and not break international law.
What a f**king charade...
Thats Gove doing what he does best, distancing himself from the shit show and sharpening his knives
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Regarding food supplies, I won’t be paying through the nose for overinflated french foie gras from Waitrose next year. I’ll settle for some British bred chicken livers instead.
And I’ll be taking Camembert and Gouda of my cheese board and sticking to cheddar.
What about Salad (90% comes from Mercia during winter months), Cheddar Cheese (>95% of imported cheddar comes from EU), Citrus Fruits - the list goes on.
40% of food and drink consumed in the UK eithers comes from the EU or passes through the EU. Basically you're being naive as fcuk if you think your weekly shop isn't going to be negatively effected.
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And so it begins......
The Eu commission have now published this today. A sense of panic ?
While the Commission will continue to do its utmost to reach a mutually beneficial agreement with the UK, there is now significant uncertainty whether a deal will be in place on 1 January 2021.
The European Commission has today put forward a set of targeted contingency measures ensuring basic reciprocal air and road connectivity between the EU and the UK, as well as allowing for the possibility of reciprocal fishing access by EU and UK vessels to each other's waters.
The aim of these contingency measures is to cater for the period during which there is no agreement in place. If no agreement enters into application, they will end after a fixed period.
President von der Leyen said: “Negotiations are still ongoing. However, given that the end of the transition is very near, there is no guarantee that if and when an agreement is found, it can enter into force on time. Our responsibility is to be prepared for all eventualities, including not having a deal in place with the UK on 1 January 2021. That is why we are coming forward with these measures today”.
The Commission has consistently called on all stakeholders in all sectors to prepare for all possible scenarios on 1 January 2021. While a “no-deal” scenario will cause disruptions in many areas, some sectors would be disproportionately affected due to a lack of appropriate fall-back solutions and because in some sectors, stakeholders cannot themselves take mitigating measures. The Commission is therefore putting forward today four contingency measures to mitigate some of the significant disruptions that will occur on 1 January in case a deal with the UK is not yet in place:
Basic air connectivity: A proposal for a Regulation to ensure the provision of certain air services between the UK and the EU for 6 months, provided the UK ensures the same.
Aviation safety: A proposal for a Regulation ensuring that various safety certificates for products can continue to be used in EU aircraft without disruption, thereby avoiding the grounding of EU aircraft.
Basic road connectivity: A proposal for a Regulation covering basic connectivity with regard to both road freight, and road passenger transport for 6 months, provided the UK assures the same to EU hauliers.
Fisheries: A proposal for a Regulation to create the appropriate legal framework until 31 December 2021, or until a fisheries agreement with the UK has been concluded – whichever date is earlier – for continued reciprocal access by EU and UK vessels to each other's waters after 31 December 2020. In order to guarantee the sustainability of fisheries and in light of the importance of fisheries for the economic livelihood of many communities, it is necessary to facilitate the procedures of authorisation of fishing vessels.[/b]
I get the top three which have nothing to do with any one specific sector, but I think I know what the govt will say about fishing. They are wanting continued access for another year! The French have clearly spoken. Perhaps they thought we would yield at the last moment. They move the goalposts once again to try to suit themselves.
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Political bluster. I'd be stunned if no compromise appears.
However I do actually see the point campsall makes. The point of brexit was to move independently of the EU whether you like it or not. That is something the government is clearly sticking to. What BOTH parties should realise is that it doesn't have to be the extreme ends of the spectrum.
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Regarding food supplies, I won’t be paying through the nose for overinflated french foie gras from Waitrose next year. I’ll settle for some British bred chicken livers instead.
And I’ll be taking Camembert and Gouda of my cheese board and sticking to cheddar.
What about Salad (90% comes from Mercia during winter months), Cheddar Cheese (>95% of imported cheddar comes from EU), Citrus Fruits - the list goes on.
40% of food and drink consumed in the UK eithers comes from the EU or passes through the EU. Basically you're being naive as fcuk if you think your weekly shop isn't going to be negatively effected.
I’m unsure where your stats are from but the likes of cathedral city and all of Asda’s own cheddar is made in Great Britain using British milk. A few years ago dairy crest farms who were the single biggest cheese producer in the uk, were bought out by Canadian owned Saputo, one of the biggest dairy producers in the world.
There are vast amounts of cheddar made in this country. More than enough to keep us fed.
In 2018 we produced 465,000 tons of the stuff.
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Our friends in the EU are currently insisting that if they pass a new law in the future with which we in this country do not comply or don't follow suit, then they want the automatic right to punish us and to retaliate.
they are saying that the UK should be the only country in the world not to have sovereign control over its fishing waters.
Who in their right mind would accept the above? And whilst we do not make the most of our own quota currently, it’s the principle that is key, not the waters or fish.
We’ve got some short term pain coming. I think that was always the case. Deal or no deal.
Regarding food supplies, I won’t be paying through the nose for overinflated french foie gras from Waitrose next year. I’ll settle for some British bred chicken livers instead.
And I’ll be taking Camembert and Gouda of my cheese board and sticking to cheddar.
You would think that some people want us to roll over and show our underbelly wouldn’t you.
The EU was never going to make our leaving easy but the real blame is with the leave voters.
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Fisheries: A proposal for a Regulation to create the appropriate legal framework until 31 December 2021, or until a fisheries agreement with the UK has been concluded – whichever date is earlier – for continued reciprocal access by EU and UK vessels to each other's waters after 31 December 2020. In order to guarantee the sustainability of fisheries and in light of the importance of fisheries for the economic livelihood of many communities, it is necessary to facilitate the procedures of authorisation of fishing vessels.[/b]
I get the top three which have nothing to do with any one specific sector, but I think I know what the govt will say about fishing. They are wanting continued access for another year! The French have clearly spoken. Perhaps they thought we would yield at the last moment. They move the goalposts once again to try to suit themselves.
You really don't understand it, do you? This is about an extra grace period to get the damn thing sorted out if an agreement isn't reached soon. Notice the word 'reciprocal' at all? We can still fish in their waters too under this! But I suppose you'd rather they weren't flexible about extending the negotiations and we just crashed out instead.
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And what at the end of 2021? Still no agreement. 4.5 yrs and nothing. What’s difference will another year make?
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I have to admit to not knowing all about the politics of it, but as a business owner who sends products to NI, ROI and Europe on a daily basis, this Brexit malarkey is proving to be a massive pain in the arse, to put it politely.
If taking back control means added costs, long delays, a truckload more complicated admin and faffing around and a big dose of uncertainty then it looks as if we're getting all the control we wanted.
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Political bluster. I'd be stunned if no compromise appears.
However I do actually see the point campsall makes. The point of brexit was to move independently of the EU whether you like it or not. That is something the government is clearly sticking to. What BOTH parties should realise is that it doesn't have to be the extreme ends of the spectrum.
bfyp you mentioned me in your post as saying i was making sense. While I know I always make sense ( well maybe not )
I have not actually posted on this thread once to my knowledge. ;)
If I did it must have been a very long time ago.
Thanks anyway. :)
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And what at the end of 2021? Still no agreement. 4.5 yrs and nothing. What’s difference will another year make?
So you do want us to crash out?
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Our friends in the EU are currently insisting that if they pass a new law in the future with which we in this country do not comply or don't follow suit, then they want the automatic right to punish us and to retaliate.
they are saying that the UK should be the only country in the world not to have sovereign control over its fishing waters.
Who in their right mind would accept the above? And whilst we do not make the most of our own quota currently, it’s the principle that is key, not the waters or fish.
We’ve got some short term pain coming. I think that was always the case. Deal or no deal.
Regarding food supplies, I won’t be paying through the nose for overinflated french foie gras from Waitrose next year. I’ll settle for some British bred chicken livers instead.
And I’ll be taking Camembert and Gouda of my cheese board and sticking to cheddar.
NR.
I'm sorry but that post is just ridiculous, and goes to the heart of how bad the arguments are on the Leave side.
The EU is insisting that IF WE WANT TARIFF-FREE ACCESS TO THE SINGLE MARKET, then we will have to abide by the rules of the Single Market. What on earth is unfair about that?
or, look at it the other way. The UK is saying that we want tariff-free access to the Single Market, but we want the right not to have to implement the rules that the rest of the EU countries will have to work to. It is an absolute nonsense. It's like the French diplomat said a few years ago, the UK's attitude to the EU is like that of a man who goes to a wife-swapping party but doesn't take his wife.. We want all the benefits and none of the costs.
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Our friends in the EU are currently insisting that if they pass a new law in the future with which we in this country do not comply or don't follow suit, then they want the automatic right to punish us and to retaliate.
they are saying that the UK should be the only country in the world not to have sovereign control over its fishing waters.
Who in their right mind would accept the above? And whilst we do not make the most of our own quota currently, it’s the principle that is key, not the waters or fish.
We’ve got some short term pain coming. I think that was always the case. Deal or no deal.
Regarding food supplies, I won’t be paying through the nose for overinflated french foie gras from Waitrose next year. I’ll settle for some British bred chicken livers instead.
And I’ll be taking Camembert and Gouda of my cheese board and sticking to cheddar.
You would think that some people want us to roll over and show our underbelly wouldn’t you.
The EU was never going to make our leaving easy but the real blame is with the leave voters.
You just don't get how negotiations work do you?
It's not this romanticised Hollywood idea of two adversaries playing chicken. It is about know what the other side's red lines are and knowing what they are prepared to compromise on.
The EU has been categorical right from the get go that a key red line is the Single Market. If we want preferential access to trading with the Single Market, we only get that if we agree to abide by the rules of the Single Market. The integrity of the Single Market is FAR more important to the EU than the amount of trade that they do with us and they will not budge on that issue.
Stating that openly is not rolling over and showing them your belly. It is being grown up enough to know what the terms of the discussion are.
The question for us is, is our economic strength more important to us than our ability to run our economy as we want? There is no expert anywhere in the world who things we can possibly end up richer by crashing out of the SM, but being able to make our own deals with America or Uruguay or whoever. So we have to decide - is this about standing up for principle that, in reality, is pointless or about liming the economic mess that Brexit will be?
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I have to admit to not knowing all about the politics of it, but as a business owner who sends products to NI, ROI and Europe on a daily basis, this Brexit malarkey is proving to be a massive pain in the arse, to put it politely.
If taking back control means added costs, long delays, a truckload more complicated admin and faffing around and a big dose of uncertainty then it looks as if we're getting all the control we wanted.
My eldest step-daughter works for a freight company and most of their clients didn't understand just what Brexit entails. She said that say you were importing glass jars you would pay tax. If you filled the jars with wax and exported them to Europe there would then be a further tax, making then more expensive and possibly uneconomic. Some of their biggest customers are already saying that they can't see themselves surviving. The extra paperwork costs and tax is a killer.
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Our friends in the EU are currently insisting that if they pass a new law in the future with which we in this country do not comply or don't follow suit, then they want the automatic right to punish us and to retaliate.
they are saying that the UK should be the only country in the world not to have sovereign control over its fishing waters.
Who in their right mind would accept the above? And whilst we do not make the most of our own quota currently, it’s the principle that is key, not the waters or fish.
We’ve got some short term pain coming. I think that was always the case. Deal or no deal.
Regarding food supplies, I won’t be paying through the nose for overinflated french foie gras from Waitrose next year. I’ll settle for some British bred chicken livers instead.
And I’ll be taking Camembert and Gouda of my cheese board and sticking to cheddar.
You would think that some people want us to roll over and show our underbelly wouldn’t you.
The EU was never going to make our leaving easy but the real blame is with the leave voters.
You just don't get how negotiations work do you?
It's not this romanticised Hollywood idea of two adversaries playing chicken. It is about know what the other side's red lines are and knowing what they are prepared to compromise on.
The EU has been categorical right from the get go that a key red line is the Single Market. If we want preferential access to trading with the Single Market, we only get that if we agree to abide by the rules of the Single Market. The integrity of the Single Market is FAR more important to the EU than the amount of trade that they do with us and they will not budge on that issue.
Stating that openly is not rolling over and showing them your belly. It is being grown up enough to know what the terms of the discussion are.
The question for us is, is our economic strength more important to us than our ability to run our economy as we want? There is no expert anywhere in the world who things we can possibly end up richer by crashing out of the SM, but being able to make our own deals with America or Uruguay or whoever. So we have to decide - is this about standing up for principle that, in reality, is pointless or about liming the economic mess that Brexit will be?
BST. how on earth is my comment indicative of not being able to understand how negotiations work?
As for the rest of your post, I did say that the EU were never going to be easy didn’t I.
Why should they make it so.
The bit about “being grown up enough to understand” is typical of one of your posts.
As condescending as ever sadly.
It appears that you think I am suggesting we should roll over when clearly I am not.
Some of the anti Tory group though do seem to be putting all the blame for the current stalemate at the door of Number Ten.
As a remainer, don’t you think that the Leave voters have brought this mess upon us.
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Hound.
I'm not sure how else your comment "You would think that some people want us to roll over and show our underbelly wouldn’t you" is supposed to be interpreted. Negotiations only work when both sides properly understand what are the points the other one will move on. Establishing those is not "rolling over". It is key to facilitating the process.
We are a few hours away from the deadline now, and still we have never established whether the principle of being able to trade in an unfettered way is worth the £100-200bn per year hit to our economy that pretty much every economic analysis predicts it would result in. We still seem to be assuming that the EU is bluffing when it says that we cannot have tariff-free access to the SM without playing by the SM rules. So we are sticking to the Bad Deal Worse Than No Deal line, which no one has ever believed, because it isn't true.
One of three things is now about to happen.
1) Maybe the EU will capitulate and let us have the deal we want. I'd say the chances of that happening are vanishingly small, because as I've said before, it means the unravelling of the EU.
2) Maybe Johnson will finally realise it's decision time and he has to throw his hand, with a couple of meaningless sweeteners chucked in by the EU for him to parade as a success. Which then raises the question: What exactly has been the point of Brexit?
3) Both sides stick to their guns and we crash out with the No Deal that was never discussed in 2016, and which has never, ever been supported by a majority of the population. And we will commit ourselves to a significantly poorer future. But we WILL get blue passports. Even though they are made in France.
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As for where the blame lies for this situation, it's pretty simple to me.
It lies with the people who have never realised what the EU's approach to dealing with Brexit is. The people who never accepted that the EU would always prioritise the stability of the SM over a deal with us. And it lies with the amoral politicians who conned people into those thoughts in 2016, when they said we held all the cards and the EU would come crawling to us for a deal. Line them up, the ones who said that. They knew they were lying at the time. We'll have proof by the weekend that they were lying. And they have never once apologised for it. In fact they now run the country, after pulling off the biggest political con trick in our lifetimes.
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Hound.
I'm not sure how else your comment "You would think that some people want us to roll over and show our underbelly wouldn’t you" is supposed to be interpreted. Negotiations only work when both sides properly understand what are the points the other one will move on. Establishing those is not "rolling over". It is key to facilitating the process.
We are a few hours away from the deadline now, and still we have never established whether the principle of being able to trade in an unfettered way is worth the £100-200bn per year hit to our economy that pretty much every economic analysis predicts it would result in. We still seem to be assuming that the EU is bluffing when it says that we cannot have tariff-free access to the SM without playing by the SM rules. So we are sticking to the Bad Deal Worse Than No Deal line, which no one has ever believed, because it isn't true.
One of three things is now about to happen.
1) Maybe the EU will capitulate and let us have the deal we want. I'd say the chances of that happening are vanishingly small, because as I've said before, it means the unravelling of the EU.
2) Maybe Johnson will finally realise it's decision time and he has to throw his hand, with a couple of meaningless sweeteners chucked in by the EU for him to parade as a success. Which then raises the question: What exactly has been the point of Brexit?
3) Both sides stick to their guns and we crash out with the No Deal that was never discussed in 2016, and which has never, ever been supported by a majority of the population. And we will commit ourselves to a significantly poorer future. But we WILL get blue passports. Even though they are made in France.
BST, you are clearly not understanding what I am saying then.
There are lots of people laying the blame for the inability of the two sides to agree but to read posts on here and elsewhere people are slagging off the government for not getting it done and dusted.
If that is all that matters to them then I suggested that they simply want the government to roll over and show their belly to the EU, like a submissive dog, which will get the deal done.
Does that help you to understand the meaning of my original post now.
As for what is the point of Brexit..... going back to pre the referendum vote the majority of the people I discussed it with who were going to vote to leave based their opinion on being able to be in control of our borders and restrict immigration.
I don’t recall anyone talking about the financial impact on the UK post Brexit or the difficulty we might face with tariffs etc.
They did though mention the famous £250m per week that Johnson and Farage told us about.
The average bloke back then had no idea of how complicated this was going to be.
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As for where the blame lies for this situation, it's pretty simple to me.
It lies with the people who have never realised what the EU's approach to dealing with Brexit is. The people who never accepted that the EU would always prioritise the stability of the SM over a deal with us. And it lies with the amoral politicians who conned people into those thoughts in 2016, when they said we held all the cards and the EU would come crawling to us for a deal. Line them up, the ones who said that. They knew they were lying at the time. We'll have proof by the weekend that they were lying. And they have never once apologised for it. In fact they now run the country, after pulling off the biggest political con trick in our lifetimes.
Does that post indirectly say that the blame lies with the leave voters then.
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Hound.
I'm not sure how else your comment "You would think that some people want us to roll over and show our underbelly wouldn’t you" is supposed to be interpreted. Negotiations only work when both sides properly understand what are the points the other one will move on. Establishing those is not "rolling over". It is key to facilitating the process.
We are a few hours away from the deadline now, and still we have never established whether the principle of being able to trade in an unfettered way is worth the £100-200bn per year hit to our economy that pretty much every economic analysis predicts it would result in. We still seem to be assuming that the EU is bluffing when it says that we cannot have tariff-free access to the SM without playing by the SM rules. So we are sticking to the Bad Deal Worse Than No Deal line, which no one has ever believed, because it isn't true.
One of three things is now about to happen.
1) Maybe the EU will capitulate and let us have the deal we want. I'd say the chances of that happening are vanishingly small, because as I've said before, it means the unravelling of the EU.
2) Maybe Johnson will finally realise it's decision time and he has to throw his hand, with a couple of meaningless sweeteners chucked in by the EU for him to parade as a success. Which then raises the question: What exactly has been the point of Brexit?
3) Both sides stick to their guns and we crash out with the No Deal that was never discussed in 2016, and which has never, ever been supported by a majority of the population. And we will commit ourselves to a significantly poorer future. But we WILL get blue passports. Even though they are made in France.
BST, you are clearly not understanding what I am saying then.
There are lots of people laying the blame for the inability of the two sides to agree but to read posts on here and elsewhere people are slagging off the government for not getting it done and dusted.
If that is all that matters to them then I suggested that they simply want the government to roll over and show their belly to the EU, like a submissive dog, which will get the deal done.
Does that help you to understand the meaning of my original post now.
As for what is the point of Brexit..... going back to pre the referendum vote the majority of the people I discussed it with who were going to vote to leave based their opinion on being able to be in control of our borders and restrict immigration.
I don’t recall anyone talking about the financial impact on the UK post Brexit or the difficulty we might face with tariffs etc.
They did though mention the famous £250m per week that Johnson and Farage told us about.
The average bloke back then had no idea of how complicated this was going to be.
And that, highlighted, had been the problem with the referendum. People had no idea what they would be voting for with Brexit, but voted for it anyway.
I agree it would have been impossible to define in great detail what brexit would have meant, but it was surely clear that there would be much more than taking back border control to limit immigration.?
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Hound.
I apologise if I've misunderstood you but I'm not sure I have. You are equating getting the negotiations done with rolling over and showing your belly. That was what spurred my first post.
Regarding people not being aware of the complexity of the economic issues in 2016, that's hardly surprising. The Leave side refused to engage in that topic. The laughed off "Project Fear" and played the nationalism card, insisting that we'd get a great deal from a cringing EU.
In 2014, a poll in Scotland had a 5% majority for Independence. They then asked "How would you vote if you knew for certain that Independence would leave you, personally, £500 worse off?" The result was 10% majority AGAINST independence.
I put it to you that if, in 2016, voters had been told by the Leave side, you can take back control of our borders (sic: we always could control our borders but chose not to...) but it will mean that we lose something north of £1500 per year for every man, woman and child in the country, we'd have seen a different result.
So no, I don't blame Leave voters for not taking that into account then. They were conned by a bunch of spivs. I do wonder why they refuse to accept they were conned now, though.
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On the subject of the economic cost of leaving, in a poll last week, a scarcely credible 22% of people said they thought the UK economy would be STRONGER in the event of a No Deal outcome. Enough to truly make you weep.
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No wonder Nigel Farage called it a day after he'd achieved his political ambitions of getting us out of the EU Talk about leaving someone to clear the mess up after the empty promises that he never quite managed to substantiate
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I have to admit to not knowing all about the politics of it, but as a business owner who sends products to NI, ROI and Europe on a daily basis, this Brexit malarkey is proving to be a massive pain in the arse, to put it politely.
If taking back control means added costs, long delays, a truckload more complicated admin and faffing around and a big dose of uncertainty then it looks as if we're getting all the control we wanted.
My eldest step-daughter works for a freight company and most of their clients didn't understand just what Brexit entails. She said that say you were importing glass jars you would pay tax. If you filled the jars with wax and exported them to Europe there would then be a further tax, making then more expensive and possibly uneconomic. Some of their biggest customers are already saying that they can't see themselves surviving. The extra paperwork costs and tax is a killer.
But did she tell them about how IPR helps with the re-exporting on that case?
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Hound.
I'm not sure how else your comment "You would think that some people want us to roll over and show our underbelly wouldn’t you" is supposed to be interpreted. Negotiations only work when both sides properly understand what are the points the other one will move on. Establishing those is not "rolling over". It is key to facilitating the process.
We are a few hours away from the deadline now, and still we have never established whether the principle of being able to trade in an unfettered way is worth the £100-200bn per year hit to our economy that pretty much every economic analysis predicts it would result in. We still seem to be assuming that the EU is bluffing when it says that we cannot have tariff-free access to the SM without playing by the SM rules. So we are sticking to the Bad Deal Worse Than No Deal line, which no one has ever believed, because it isn't true.
One of three things is now about to happen.
1) Maybe the EU will capitulate and let us have the deal we want. I'd say the chances of that happening are vanishingly small, because as I've said before, it means the unravelling of the EU.
2) Maybe Johnson will finally realise it's decision time and he has to throw his hand, with a couple of meaningless sweeteners chucked in by the EU for him to parade as a success. Which then raises the question: What exactly has been the point of Brexit?
3) Both sides stick to their guns and we crash out with the No Deal that was never discussed in 2016, and which has never, ever been supported by a majority of the population. And we will commit ourselves to a significantly poorer future. But we WILL get blue passports. Even though they are made in France.
BST, you are clearly not understanding what I am saying then.
There are lots of people laying the blame for the inability of the two sides to agree but to read posts on here and elsewhere people are slagging off the government for not getting it done and dusted.
If that is all that matters to them then I suggested that they simply want the government to roll over and show their belly to the EU, like a submissive dog, which will get the deal done.
Does that help you to understand the meaning of my original post now.
As for what is the point of Brexit..... going back to pre the referendum vote the majority of the people I discussed it with who were going to vote to leave based their opinion on being able to be in control of our borders and restrict immigration.
I don’t recall anyone talking about the financial impact on the UK post Brexit or the difficulty we might face with tariffs etc.
They did though mention the famous £250m per week that Johnson and Farage told us about.
The average bloke back then had no idea of how complicated this was going to be.
And that, highlighted, had been the problem with the referendum. People had no idea what they would be voting for with Brexit, but voted for it anyway.
I agree it would have been impossible to define in great detail what brexit would have meant, but it was surely clear that there would be much more than taking back border control to limit immigration.?
But dare to question the reasons people voted the way they did and all you get back is 'people knew what they were voting for'. :silly:
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As for where the blame lies for this situation, it's pretty simple to me.
It lies with the people who have never realised what the EU's approach to dealing with Brexit is. The people who never accepted that the EU would always prioritise the stability of the SM over a deal with us. And it lies with the amoral politicians who conned people into those thoughts in 2016, when they said we held all the cards and the EU would come crawling to us for a deal. Line them up, the ones who said that. They knew they were lying at the time. We'll have proof by the weekend that they were lying. And they have never once apologised for it. In fact they now run the country, after pulling off the biggest political con trick in our lifetimes.
Does that post indirectly say that the blame lies with the leave voters then.
If they voted based on the lies they were told, does that make them gullible or culpable..?
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Hound.
I apologise if I've misunderstood you but I'm not sure I have. You are equating getting the negotiations done with rolling over and showing your belly. That was what spurred my first post.
Regarding people not being aware of the complexity of the economic issues in 2016, that's hardly surprising. The Leave side refused to engage in that topic. The laughed off "Project Fear" and played the nationalism card, insisting that we'd get a great deal from a cringing EU.
In 2014, a poll in Scotland had a 5% majority for Independence. They then asked "How would you vote if you knew for certain that Independence would leave you, personally, £500 worse off?" The result was 10% majority AGAINST independence.
I put it to you that if, in 2016, voters had been told by the Leave side, you can take back control of our borders (sic: we always could control our borders but chose not to...) but it will mean that we lose something north of £1500 per year for every man, woman and child in the country, we'd have seen a different result.
So no, I don't blame Leave voters for not taking that into account then. They were conned by a bunch of spivs. I do wonder why they refuse to accept they were conned now, though.
Completely agree about where the blame is, but for me Cameron does not escape all blame. As I was screaming at the time (not on here) if he had run a Remain campaign based on 'here is what the EU does for us' campaign, all the benefits of cost sharing of many agencies (Think things like Europol, European Space Agency, European Patent Office, Eurocontrol, Border Control and many many more) that we will now have to pay to set up our own versions if we want to carry on in these areas; the Educational Research benefits, EU grants to poorer regions of Europe........
All this before the basic trading benefits.
Not the Project fear based attitude which turned everyone off. Just say what the EU actually does did for us.
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On the subject of 'taking back control' there was a haulier on Radio 5 this morning. He and some of the other hauliers he knows had applied for a permit to work in the EU that will be required on 1st January (unless there is agreement to allow UK haulies free access in the deal).
The EU were giving out 2000 permits. 10000 hauliers applied. Neither this guy or any of his mates were among the lucky ones. They asked him what he would do. Close the company and sell the lorry - all my business is gone.
We of course are not putting any limit or quota on EU or other foreign drivers entering the UK (because of course we need the goods). So the likelihood now is that we shall see more EU/foreign trucks on the road to make up for the reduction in British ones.
That is what 'taking back control' actually means in practice. And they need us more than we need them...
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Dutch.
The problem is, as Hound says and as Tyke's posts suggest, in a large proportion of the electorate, it was simply impossible to move the discussion past "EU=Immigration". And it was Cameron's monumental mistake in thinking that there was any chance of a balanced debate on the pros and cons of the EU.
He called the referendum in order to address the civil war on the Right of British politics. And he lost it. there was a kind of karma in that, in as much as the whole reason that the EU immigration issue had become so toxic is because of the air of frustration in the country at the perma-slump caused by Cameron's Austerity. For a first class graduate from Oxford, he displayed remarkable ignorance about history. Every time the general population has a valid grievance about the way the system is treating them, a rabble rouser will emerge telling them it is the fault of those bas**rd foreigners. Farage was irrelevant in 2010. By 2013, after 3 years of grinding Austerity, he was an existential threat to the Tories, and the one and only reason Cameron called the Referendum was to try to neutralise that threat. It all blew up in his face, and we are now left dealing with the debris.
You'd think with a record like that, Cameron would be the worst PM for half a century. As it is, he's only the third worst we've had in 5 years!
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On the subject of 'taking back control' there was a haulier on Radio 5 this morning. He and some of the other hauliers he knows had applied for a permit to work in the EU that will be required on 1st January (unless there is agreement to allow UK haulies free access in the deal).
The EU were giving out 2000 permits. 10000 hauliers applied. Neither this guy or any of his mates were among the lucky ones. They asked him what he would do. Close the company and sell the lorry - all my business is gone.
We of course are not putting any limit or quota on EU or other foreign drivers entering the UK (because of course we need the goods). So the likelihood now is that we shall see more EU/foreign trucks on the road to make up for the reduction in British ones.
That is what 'taking back control' actually means in practice. And they need us more than we need them...
I heard that too. What I remember hearing was that it wasn't the EU limiting the number of permits, but that it was all the UK government had bothered to apply for.
It'll be on here if anyone wants to listen
https://www.bbc.co.uk/schedules/p00fzl7g#on-now
It was either on Nicky Campbell or Emma Barnett, I don't remember what time I heard it.
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Hound.
I apologise if I've misunderstood you but I'm not sure I have. You are equating getting the negotiations done with rolling over and showing your belly. That was what spurred my first post.
Regarding people not being aware of the complexity of the economic issues in 2016, that's hardly surprising. The Leave side refused to engage in that topic. The laughed off "Project Fear" and played the nationalism card, insisting that we'd get a great deal from a cringing EU.
In 2014, a poll in Scotland had a 5% majority for Independence. They then asked "How would you vote if you knew for certain that Independence would leave you, personally, £500 worse off?" The result was 10% majority AGAINST independence.
I put it to you that if, in 2016, voters had been told by the Leave side, you can take back control of our borders (sic: we always could control our borders but chose not to...) but it will mean that we lose something north of £1500 per year for every man, woman and child in the country, we'd have seen a different result.
So no, I don't blame Leave voters for not taking that into account then. They were conned by a bunch of spivs. I do wonder why they refuse to accept they were conned now, though.
For the record, I remembered the idea of that Scottish survey, but I didn't get the numbers right. Here's the actual figures - WAY starker than I remembered.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-25846914
It's hard to look at those numbers and not conclude that there would have been a different outcome in 2016 if the Leave side had been honest about the economic hit that inevitably was going to go hand in hand with Taking Back Control.
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But..but..but..if they'd told the truth they'd have lost..!!
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On the subject of 'taking back control' there was a haulier on Radio 5 this morning. He and some of the other hauliers he knows had applied for a permit to work in the EU that will be required on 1st January (unless there is agreement to allow UK haulies free access in the deal).
The EU were giving out 2000 permits. 10000 hauliers applied. Neither this guy or any of his mates were among the lucky ones. They asked him what he would do. Close the company and sell the lorry - all my business is gone.
We of course are not putting any limit or quota on EU or other foreign drivers entering the UK (because of course we need the goods). So the likelihood now is that we shall see more EU/foreign trucks on the road to make up for the reduction in British ones.
That is what 'taking back control' actually means in practice. And they need us more than we need them...
I heard that too. What I remember hearing was that it wasn't the EU limiting the number of permits, but that it was all the UK government had bothered to apply for.
It'll be on here if anyone wants to listen
https://www.bbc.co.uk/schedules/p00fzl7g#on-now
It was either on Nicky Campbell or Emma Barnett, I don't remember what time I heard it.
Nicky Campbell towards the end - maybe 9.45ish
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Hound.
I'm not sure how else your comment "You would think that some people want us to roll over and show our underbelly wouldn’t you" is supposed to be interpreted. Negotiations only work when both sides properly understand what are the points the other one will move on. Establishing those is not "rolling over". It is key to facilitating the process.
We are a few hours away from the deadline now, and still we have never established whether the principle of being able to trade in an unfettered way is worth the £100-200bn per year hit to our economy that pretty much every economic analysis predicts it would result in. We still seem to be assuming that the EU is bluffing when it says that we cannot have tariff-free access to the SM without playing by the SM rules. So we are sticking to the Bad Deal Worse Than No Deal line, which no one has ever believed, because it isn't true.
One of three things is now about to happen.
1) Maybe the EU will capitulate and let us have the deal we want. I'd say the chances of that happening are vanishingly small, because as I've said before, it means the unravelling of the EU.
2) Maybe Johnson will finally realise it's decision time and he has to throw his hand, with a couple of meaningless sweeteners chucked in by the EU for him to parade as a success. Which then raises the question: What exactly has been the point of Brexit?
3) Both sides stick to their guns and we crash out with the No Deal that was never discussed in 2016, and which has never, ever been supported by a majority of the population. And we will commit ourselves to a significantly poorer future. But we WILL get blue passports. Even though they are made in France.
BST, you are clearly not understanding what I am saying then.
There are lots of people laying the blame for the inability of the two sides to agree but to read posts on here and elsewhere people are slagging off the government for not getting it done and dusted.
If that is all that matters to them then I suggested that they simply want the government to roll over and show their belly to the EU, like a submissive dog, which will get the deal done.
Does that help you to understand the meaning of my original post now.
As for what is the point of Brexit..... going back to pre the referendum vote the majority of the people I discussed it with who were going to vote to leave based their opinion on being able to be in control of our borders and restrict immigration.
I don’t recall anyone talking about the financial impact on the UK post Brexit or the difficulty we might face with tariffs etc.
They did though mention the famous £250m per week that Johnson and Farage told us about.
The average bloke back then had no idea of how complicated this was going to be.
And that, highlighted, had been the problem with the referendum. People had no idea what they would be voting for with Brexit, but voted for it anyway.
I agree it would have been impossible to define in great detail what brexit would have meant, but it was surely clear that there would be much more than taking back border control to limit immigration.?
It might have been clear to me and you IDM but as I said, most people I spoke to back then had immigration as the main reason that they voted for Brexit.
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It beggars belief that the government didn’t extend the transition period by a year, simply to counter the pandemic as a priority..
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Hound.
I apologise if I've misunderstood you but I'm not sure I have. You are equating getting the negotiations done with rolling over and showing your belly. That was what spurred my first post.
Regarding people not being aware of the complexity of the economic issues in 2016, that's hardly surprising. The Leave side refused to engage in that topic. The laughed off "Project Fear" and played the nationalism card, insisting that we'd get a great deal from a cringing EU.
In 2014, a poll in Scotland had a 5% majority for Independence. They then asked "How would you vote if you knew for certain that Independence would leave you, personally, £500 worse off?" The result was 10% majority AGAINST independence.
I put it to you that if, in 2016, voters had been told by the Leave side, you can take back control of our borders (sic: we always could control our borders but chose not to...) but it will mean that we lose something north of £1500 per year for every man, woman and child in the country, we'd have seen a different result.
So no, I don't blame Leave voters for not taking that into account then. They were conned by a bunch of spivs. I do wonder why they refuse to accept they were conned now, though.
BST, your point about every person being worse off backs up my point in a way.
I have said that the average bloke didn’t know enough about what was to come so to vote leave without knowing what was to come was not a good thing to do.
They weren’t conned into voting leave by someone giving information to the contrary were they, they just weren’t told anything about what to expect personally, financially.
The big issue that was continually spouted was the £250m per week story plus control of immigration.
Finally, I wasn’t equating getting Brexit done to rolling over.
I clearly said that those people whining on about getting a deal done must be expecting our government to roll over because the EU are unlikely to back down from what they want.
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Hound.
I apologise if I've misunderstood you but I'm not sure I have. You are equating getting the negotiations done with rolling over and showing your belly. That was what spurred my first post.
Regarding people not being aware of the complexity of the economic issues in 2016, that's hardly surprising. The Leave side refused to engage in that topic. The laughed off "Project Fear" and played the nationalism card, insisting that we'd get a great deal from a cringing EU.
In 2014, a poll in Scotland had a 5% majority for Independence. They then asked "How would you vote if you knew for certain that Independence would leave you, personally, £500 worse off?" The result was 10% majority AGAINST independence.
I put it to you that if, in 2016, voters had been told by the Leave side, you can take back control of our borders (sic: we always could control our borders but chose not to...) but it will mean that we lose something north of £1500 per year for every man, woman and child in the country, we'd have seen a different result.
So no, I don't blame Leave voters for not taking that into account then. They were conned by a bunch of spivs. I do wonder why they refuse to accept they were conned now, though.
BST, your point about every person being worse off backs up my point in a way.
I have said that the average bloke didn’t know enough about what was to come so to vote leave without knowing what was to come was not a good thing to do.
They weren’t conned into voting leave by someone giving information to the contrary were they, they just weren’t told anything about what to expect personally, financially.
The big issue that was continually spouted was the £250m per week story plus control of immigration.
Finally, I wasn’t equating getting Brexit done to rolling over.
I clearly said that those people whining on about getting a deal done must be expecting our government to roll over because the EU are unlikely to back done from what they want.
i think you can label people into certain camps both for and against,
When it comes to accepting that most people will be worse off i think a large part of the leave vote was from a large demographic who feel they had not a great deal to lose from changing the status quo. These will be people who could be on benefits or minimum wage, don't travel extensively bar a week in Spain and don't frequent cultural recreation, so basically your just about getting by group.
This group which were once and should still be the lifeblood of the Labour movement have slipped through the net, felt they had been neglected and left behind thought they would get their own back on the world and went full leaver mode turning into the so called Red Wall block.
There's been much discussion everywhere about how these people,supposedly mostly low status not collage educated voted the wrong way.
I think it was their cry for help to see something change and to sock it to the man.
Political parties of all nominations have a lot of soul searching and questions to answer because they constantly and continue to fail them.
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British things for British people - Brexit's gonna be brilliant:
https://twitter.com/JaneyGodley/status/1337025469745606658
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Well Billy, if we are sending less to the EU and they will be sending more to us but paying tariffs they have not been paying before, for the first time they will be subsidising us, paying to do business with us for a change.
Add that to our contributions we will not have to pay and the government will be on a nice little earner without having to do much. Plus we can charge them for access in a limited way to our fishing grounds.
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And who do you think will actually be paying for the increase in prices caused by these tariffs?
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Well Billy, if we are sending less to the EU and they will be sending more to us but paying tariffs they have not been paying before, for the first time they will be subsidising us, paying to do business with us for a change.
Add that to our contributions we will not have to pay and the government will be on a nice little earner without having to do much. Plus we can charge them for access in a limited way to our fishing grounds.
The problem Brian is that any potential 'saving' on the cheque/contributions to the EU has been well and truly gobbled up by the costs of the pandemic.
At a time when we need to grow our way out of an economic hole, we've just gone and told our biggest trading partner to do one.
Let's just cut to the chase. A massive protest vote has been translated by Johnson and co into a vote to make us all poorer. For some it will be cataclysmic. For others, it'll be nowt but a little dent in Daddy's trust fund.
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Well Billy, if we are sending less to the EU and they will be sending more to us but paying tariffs they have not been paying before, for the first time they will be subsidising us, paying to do business with us for a change.
Add that to our contributions we will not have to pay and the government will be on a nice little earner without having to do much. Plus we can charge them for access in a limited way to our fishing grounds.
The problem Brian is that any potential 'saving ' on the cheque/contributions to the EU has been well and truly gobbled up by the costs of the pandemic.
At a time when we need to grow our way out of an economic hole, we've just gone and told our biggest trading partner to do one.
Let's just cut to the chase. A massive protest vote has been translated by Johnson and co into a vote to make us all poorer. For some it will be cataclysmic. For others, it'll be nowt but a little dent in Daddy's trust fund.
Much if not all of the savings will probably have been eaten up by the actual job and logistics of getting Brexit done.
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There ISN'T any saving! For crying out loud, we'd already lost a decade and a half's worth of the net contribution to the EU between 2016 and the start of this year through depressed economic performance compared to the rest of the developed world.
Anyone who still thinks we come out net positive from this has been living under the covers for the past 4 years.
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Well Billy, if we are sending less to the EU and they will be sending more to us but paying tariffs they have not been paying before, for the first time they will be subsidising us, paying to do business with us for a change.
Add that to our contributions we will not have to pay and the government will be on a nice little earner without having to do much. Plus we can charge them for access in a limited way to our fishing grounds.
How do you work that one out seeing as we import (and will also have to start to pay tariffs on) more from the EU than we export to them! :silly:
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It is difficult to put into words how appalling this is.
https://mobile.twitter.com/BorisJohnson/status/1337102641063735301
It is 1631 days since the Brexit vote that this chancer championed because he calculated (correctly) that it would help him get to No10.
It is 21 days until the end of the transition period. And here he is, telling British businesses[1] that NOW is the time to prepare for the biggest self-imposed shock in our economic history.
Just beyond words.
[1] Remember, this is the man who, when challenged with the fact that the Brexit he was peddling 2 and a half years ago would be bad for business, responded, "f**k business."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.ft.com/content/8075e68c-7857-11e8-8e67-1e1a0846c475
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Of course, we should have known the t**t would take us out without a deal 18 months ago when he said this.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUKKCN1TR1IX
And still there are people who won't say a bad word about him.
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Sounds like No-Deal is becoming an 'Australian Deal'
This is what a recent PM thinks of 'our' deal or in reality Australia's No Deal
British Prime Minister Boris Johnson has been told to "be careful watch you wish for" as he was given a stark warning of the torments of trading with the EU on so-called Australian terms by the country's former leader Malcolm Turnbull.
Turnbull said Australia faced "very large barriers" to trading with the bloc and ending the Brexit transition period on similar terms would be "pretty disappointing".
His warning on Thursday came after the Johnson said there was a "strong possibility" the UK would fail to broker a trade deal with Brussels.
Johnson used his euphemism of exiting with an "Australian relationship", with the nation not having a free trade deal with the EU and instead trading on terms set by the World Trade Organisation (WTO).
Turnbull told BBC Question Time: "It'll be pretty disappointing, I think you'll find out.
"We obviously are dealing with WTO terms. And there are really some very large barriers to Australian trade with Europe which we're seeking to address as we negotiate a free trade agreement with Europe
"But Australians would not regard our trade relationship with Europe as
https://www.canberratimes.com.au/story/7051263/turnbull-warns-on-australian-style-brexit/
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My money remains on a deal, Boris will play the "i have saved the day" card at the last moment.
I find the level playing field intriguing. I actually feel the point on a ratchet agreement on standards to be fair. I think it reasonable to say if standards are changing and one party does not align that some.agreements could change.
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My money remains on a deal, Boris will play the "i have saved the day" card at the last moment.
I find the level playing field intriguing. I actually feel the point on a ratchet agreement on standards to be fair. I think it reasonable to say if standards are changing and one party does not align that some.agreements could change.
It's simpler than that. If we want to sell it the EU we have to adhere to the product standards they set, just the same as any other territory we want to sell in anywhere in the world. Just the same as anyone who wants to sell in the UK has to adhere to UK product standards.
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Johnson and co favourite song has to be The Boxer
Lie la lie
Lie la lie lie lie la lie
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Think this sums it up
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My money remains on a deal, Boris will play the "i have saved the day" card at the last moment.
I find the level playing field intriguing. I actually feel the point on a ratchet agreement on standards to be fair. I think it reasonable to say if standards are changing and one party does not align that some.agreements could change.
It's simpler than that. If we want to sell it the EU we have to adhere to the product standards they set, just the same as any other territory we want to sell in anywhere in the world. Just the same as anyone who wants to sell in the UK has to adhere to UK product standards.
The standard on products isn't an issue. The issues are more around the legislations that around them, eg labour costs, UK taxation, state funding etc.
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When you hear a succession of Tory MPs over this weekend using the term Australia Deal, be aware of the level of utter contempt they have for your intellect.
1) Australia doesn't have a deal with the EU. "Australia Deal" means precisely "No Deal".
2) It's not massively hurtful for Australia not to have a deal with the EU, although they are slowly negotiating one. Australia's exports to the EU are just £10bn worth or about 7% of their total exports. The UK exports about £350bn of goods and services to the EU every year, or 49% of all our exports.
This bunch of shysters are preparing to massively harm our exporting businesses. And the t**ts are going to package it up as an Australia Deal.
It's up to every one of us to remember that as our economy nose dives.
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Meanwhile...
Selby. You were telling us four years ago that Volkswagen bosses would have a word with Merkel and she'd sort out a deal for us.
https://mobile.twitter.com/antoguerrera/status/1337367302291984386
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As ever, Prof Simon Wren-Lewis, the esteemed economist cuts through the bullshit and gets right to the simple core of the matter.
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2020/12/if-uk-government-fails-to-do-deal-over.html?m=1
TL:dr.
If we leave with No Deal, there WILL be tariffs on all our EU exports in three weeks.
If we sign up to the level playing field demanded by the EU, there MIGHT be tariffs in some hypothetical future, if we decide to undercut EU standards.
Look at it that way, and there are only three reasons you'd go for No Deal.
1) You are insane.
2) You deliberately want to damage the UK economy.
3) You think that playing the "I'm not giving in to Jonny Foreigner" will play better with your supporters than striking a deal.
Depressingly, I'm pretty sure that we are in 3 territory here.
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Ok. Maybe this is the face-saver Johnson has been looking for.
https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1337346409054474253
This was always the case. The UK could always refuse to follow EU standards. It's just that there wi be consequences if we do.
But Johnson has spent the past 2 days saying it is unacceptable for us to be tied to EU standards. Which was deliberately misrepresenting the situation.
Maybe this is all for the cameras. Johnson claims we are being tied down, Von Der Leyn publicly says we are not tying you down. Johnson crows "Success! The EU has backed down!" and signs the deal.
If that is what happens, he's treating people as ever more stupid than I thought.
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Ok. Maybe this is the face-saver Johnson has been looking for.
https://mobile.twitter.com/BBCPolitics/status/1337346409054474253
This was always the case. The UK could always refuse to follow EU standards. It's just that there wi be consequences if we do.
But Johnson has spent the past 2 days saying it is unacceptable for us to be tied to EU standards. Which was deliberately misrepresenting the situation.
Maybe this is all for the cameras. Johnson claims we are being tied down, Von Der Leyn publicly says we are not tying you down. Johnson crows "Success! The EU has backed down!" and signs the deal.
If that is what happens, he's treating people as ever more stupid than I thought.
But a lot of people do not understand it or actually care for the details. The story told is often actually more important than the detail in these cases.
Of course aswell it's a two way front isn't it? In many cases our standards exceed EU standards (Eg animal welfare) so there is not too much to fear. Indeed many of the rules they're afraid of being able to implement (eg state aid) are never going to be Tory policies.
I think many wanted to leave the EU and EU mechanisms, but I don't think theywanted no trade or trade with tarrifs.
Having said that, the pound is now 30% less valuable versus the euro than it was pre referendum. So even with tarrifs in many cases the comparable cost to European businesses of purchasing from the UK isn't that different (I'm aware it is more complex but it is a valid not reported point).
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BFYP.
"I think many wanted to leave the EU and EU mechanisms, but I don't think theywanted no trade or trade with tarrifs."
I think that sums up the conundrum. If there had been a bit more of a grown up approach from the UK, this was the Gordian Knot that needed cutting.
If we want tariff-free access to the SM (and remember, that would STILL result in a very big economic hit to us, compared to staying in the SM) then we have to play by the rules of the SM. There is simply no way round that. It's been increasingly tiresome to hear people on the Right complaining that the EU isn't playing fair by refusing to let us have all the benefits and none of the responsibilities.
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"Having said that, the pound is now 30% less valuable versus the euro than it was pre referendum. So even with tarrifs in many cases the comparable cost to European businesses of purchasing from the UK isn't that different (I'm aware it is more complex but it is a valid not reported point)."
True up to a point although you'd have expected that to cause a boom in our exports in the past 4 years and that hasn't happened. Part of the problem is that we also have to import things to make other things to export. And imports are equally more expensive. Another part of the problem is that business investment growth has collapsed since 2016, so we are not keeping up with the productivity of countries where investment continues, meaning we are not as efficient as them.
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My money remains on a deal, Boris will play the "i have saved the day" card at the last moment.
I find the level playing field intriguing. I actually feel the point on a ratchet agreement on standards to be fair. I think it reasonable to say if standards are changing and one party does not align that some.agreements could change.
I'm with you BFYP, this just has echoes of that 'last minute' deal with Varadker all over it. And why on earth would Johnson want to loose millions of £'s of tax revenue and create thousands of unemployed car & aircraft workers to stop French fisherman catching fish we don't eat?
But I've been wrong before...
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If this is true ...........
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Glynn, tariffs are levied by the country receiving the goods and paid by the exporter, seeing as we import more goods than we export as you constantly point out to anyone who will listen to the EU there is a large difference between what we will have to pay to the EU and what we will receive from them, which is a much larger amount more than equal to all the farm subsidies we receive from the EU according to one report I read.
Add on the fee they will have to pay for access to fish in our waters.
I too think there will be an agreement.
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Glynn, tariffs are levied by the country receiving the goods and paid by the exporter, seeing as we import more goods than we export as you constantly point out to anyone who will listen to the EU there is a large difference between what we will have to pay to the EU and what we will receive from them, which is a much larger amount more than equal to all the farm subsidies we receive from the EU according to one report I read.
Add on the fee they will have to pay for access to fish in our waters.
I too think there will be an agreement.
First half of the first sentence - Completely and utterly f**king wrong. Not worth reading anything after that so I didn't bother.
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"Having said that, the pound is now 30% less valuable versus the euro than it was pre referendum. So even with tarrifs in many cases the comparable cost to European businesses of purchasing from the UK isn't that different (I'm aware it is more complex but it is a valid not reported point)."
True up to a point although you'd have expected that to cause a boom in our exports in the past 4 years and that hasn't happened. Part of the problem is that we also have to import things to make other things to export. And imports are equally more expensive. Another part of the problem is that business investment growth has collapsed since 2016, so we are not keeping up with the productivity of countries where investment continues, meaning we are not as efficient as them.
Yep, business investment growth has indeed collapsed in the UK since 2016. Attracting investment is ultra-competitive. People go elsewhere if they don't like what they see:
https://www.ft.com/content/c52fc1b5-3ef5-480c-8f7d-a62f943b8cf2
Or in football terms why would a player join a shitshow of a club when there's better available.
Johnson, by his actions, has proved himself to be unpatriotic. Only cares about himself. How anybody thinks he's good for the UK is utterly beyond me.
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Glynn, tariffs are levied by the country receiving the goods and paid by the exporter, seeing as we import more goods than we export as you constantly point out to anyone who will listen to the EU there is a large difference between what we will have to pay to the EU and what we will receive from them, which is a much larger amount more than equal to all the farm subsidies we receive from the EU according to one report I read.
Add on the fee they will have to pay for access to fish in our waters.
I too think there will be an agreement.
First half of the first sentence - Completely and utterly f**king wrong. Not worth reading anything after that so I didn't bother.
Yep. I've never ever had one of my shipments held up at the border because we haven't paid the duty. What a load of shite that is selby.
Please at least do your homework before you spout off - even the very quickest of searches would've told you you're talking shite. https://www.google.com/search?q=who+pays+tariffs+importer+or+exporter&rlz=1C1ONGR_en-GBGB927GB927&oq=who+pays+tarif&aqs=chrome.2.0i457j0l2j69i57j0l4.3655j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
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Glynn, tariffs are levied by the country receiving the goods and paid by the exporter, seeing as we import more goods than we export as you constantly point out to anyone who will listen to the EU there is a large difference between what we will have to pay to the EU and what we will receive from them, which is a much larger amount more than equal to all the farm subsidies we receive from the EU according to one report I read.
Add on the fee they will have to pay for access to fish in our waters.
I too think there will be an agreement.
First half of the first sentence - Completely and utterly f**king wrong. Not worth reading anything after that so I didn't bother.
Yep. I've never ever had one of my shipments held up at the border because we haven't paid the duty. What a load of shite that is selby.
Please at least do your homework before you spout off - even the very quickest of searches would've told you you're talking shite. https://www.google.com/search?q=who+pays+tariffs+importer+or+exporter&rlz=1C1ONGR_en-GBGB927GB927&oq=who+pays+tarif&aqs=chrome.2.0i457j0l2j69i57j0l4.3655j1j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
As this is what he thinks, it explains the amount of b*llocks he's talked about UK/EU trade from the year dot up to the prersent.
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Selby.
Tariffs are added to the price that the purchaser pays. If we impose tariffs on cars, Audi don't pay that. It goes onto the price of the car in the UK market and our Govt effectively collects it as a tax.
Over to you to put forward the next Brexit myth.
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Imagine 28 houses on a street. They all bought expensive irreplaceable Persian carpets and signed an agreement that if any neighbour went into one of the houses they would take their shoes off.
Then one house occupant said I don’t want carpets. I want tiles I can easily clean. The rest said OK, do what you want, but you still have to take your shoes off if you come into one of our houses.
Sounds reasonable to me.
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Would they be Allied Carpets?
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Hmmm, thread of the feedback from the EU summit:
Everyone at the Commission is quite confused. The current offer to the UK is a deal in which IF we align, we get full access. IF, in future, we diverge they limit access or put up (some) tariffs. The UK choosing to go to NO access and FULL tariffs NOW, is incomprehensible.
This has led people to split into two camps: There is one school of thought, that Johnson really is utterly clueless. His behaviour at the UVDL dinner last night (a car crash, apparently), has fed that impression. This makes people not want to do business with this government.
The second school of thought, is that Johnson negotiated in bad faith throughout. That his aim was always No Deal and he simply strung 27 countries along, at the expense of a huge amount of work, effort and expense. This makes them not want to do business with this government.
Note that the conclusion is precisely the same under either theory. That whether idiot or fraudster, Johnson is best kept at arms length. Polling in most EU27 shows that being tough with the UK yields a big favourability boost. So, I'm afraid, nobody is riding to our rescue.
There is also a lot of weird back-channel chat that he might ask for some sort of technical extension at the 11th hour. Nobody puts much stock in it, but they are prepared and have worked up various legal mechanisms, if that happens.
https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1337442036451041282
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Imagine 28 houses on a street. They all bought expensive irreplaceable Persian carpets and signed an agreement that if any neighbour went into one of the houses they would take their shoes off.
Then one house occupant said I don’t want carpets. I want tiles I can easily clean. The rest said OK, do what you want, but you still have to take your shoes off if you come into one of our houses.
Sounds reasonable to me.
They could compromise and let him wear slippers that have only been worn indoors
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Glynn, tariffs are levied by the country receiving the goods and paid by the exporter, seeing as we import more goods than we export as you constantly point out to anyone who will listen to the EU there is a large difference between what we will have to pay to the EU and what we will receive from them, which is a much larger amount more than equal to all the farm subsidies we receive from the EU according to one report I read.
Add on the fee they will have to pay for access to fish in our waters.
I too think there will be an agreement.
There was a court case not so long ago because the UK did not PAY the tariffs on Chinese imports it should have done:
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201719/cmselect/cmeuleg/301-iii/30115.htm
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-parliaments-45748933
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Imagine 28 houses on a street. They all bought expensive irreplaceable Persian carpets and signed an agreement that if any neighbour went into one of the houses they would take their shoes off
Then one house occupant said I don’t want carpets. I want tiles I can easily clean. The rest said OK, do what you want, but you still have to take your shoes off if you come into one of our houses.
Sounds reasonable to me.
They could compromise and let him wear slippers that have only been worn indoors
Agree Filo. Sounds like ‘reassessing access conditions’ to me. I am sure I have heard that recently.....
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I'm watching the events playing out with trade union glasses on , as I was a rep for many years , bear with me .
What we have here is the classic " failure to agree " between trade union and management without the benefit of a arbitrary body to intervene .
My politics aren't Johnson's , the ERG or the Tory Party but leaving that to one side nobody but nobody can sign an agreement that they totally don't agree with and then expect their members to accept it .
The equivalent of not reaching an agreement and walking away is to withdraw one's labour and go out on strike which appears we are on the eve of .
Now the effects of that don't generally help either side but none the less it can be the catalyst and realisation that compromise must be brought back to the table .
If none is forthcoming then eventually both sides have to accept they will have to support themselves financially by using other means and the business ends altogether .
That to me is the reality of the situation in relativity layman's terms .
Personally I don't want to hear any whinging leavers anymore than I've had to endure whinging remainers these last four years .
We voted to leave the EU and this is where we are and so for me personally we get on with it and I'll accept that despite my personal feelings towards Johnson as a person and PM I'm comfortable in accepting nobody can sign something they fundamentally disagree with .
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Then he can sign the 'oven-ready' deal that got him elected instead. Or do union reps normally get elected on false promises too?
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Then he can sign the 'oven-ready' deal that got him elected instead. Or do union reps normally get elected on false promises too?
I believe I made it perfectly clear of my feelings towards Johnson Glyn .
Johnson doesn't own bluster as I remember Blair promising a referendum on membership of the EU on two occasions .
My intentions with my post was to simply put forward where we are rather than the the usual rhetoric we've seen played out for the last four years .
It takes two to reach an agreement and nobody can sign something they don't agree with and neither would I expect them to .
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When one side will only agree to the impossible do you still maintain it takes two to reach an agreement?
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When one side will only agree to the impossible do you still maintain it takes two to reach an agreement?
Depends what your take of the impossible is but as ever the remain camp have always generally failed to recognise the political and cultural reasons for the referendum result and instead concentrated on blaming as many leavers as they could find for it .
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Tyke.
I recognise them 100%. I just disagree that taking a wrecking ball to the issue will help overall.
At base, if people are getting on economically, no-one really gives a shit about immigration. That is demonstrated throughout history. Anti-immigrant stances become prominent when people are struggling economically.
So to address an immigration issue by choosing to make ourselves markedly less wealthy for a generation, while in practice doing nothing to limit immigration is not a recipe for dealing with this issue. It is likely to make the resentment and anger far, far worse when people realise that they aren't getting the brighter future they were promised.
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Looks like Johnson is a great negotiator and knows how to put there foriners in their place....
https://twitter.com/paulburston/status/1337313829978509312?s=12
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Looks like Johnson is a great negotiator and knows how to put there foriners in their place....
https://twitter.com/paulburston/status/1337313829978509312?s=12
Max Hastings, Johnson's ex-employer who sacked him for making up an article in The Telegraph said that if Johnson ever became PM, Britain would have given up any claim to be a serious nation.
And here we are. We elect a disorganised, unpleasant buffoon as PM. Why should it surprise us when he goes into a meeting as critical as that one acting like a disorganized, unpleasant buffoon?
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Ah, the same bloke who said Gordon Brown was also unfit to be PM. I wonder if he was always right, or just when it suited an agenda!
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I see Chrls Patten has now come out against The Clown.
Will he last as PM past Easter? I have my doubts
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Ah, the same bloke who said Gordon Brown was also unfit to be PM. I wonder if he was always right, or just when it suited an agenda!
Accepted. But he said that about Brown (someone he'd never worked closely with) in the heat of an election campaign in 2010 when he was passionately supporting the Tories. There is bound to be a partisan influence there.
His comments about Johnson were made about someone who he had had as an employee. He said Johnson was manically disorganised about everything but his own career. He said he wouldn't trust Johnson with his wife or (from bitter experience) with his wallet. He said people didn't understand the level of sheer nastiness in Johnson's personality.
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Ah, the same bloke who said Gordon Brown was also unfit to be PM. I wonder if he was always right, or just when it suited an agenda!
Accepted. But he said that about Brown (someone he'd never worked closely with) in the heat of an election campaign in 2010 when he was passionately supporting the Tories. There is bound to be a partisan influence there.
His comments about Johnson were made about someone who he had had as an employee. He said Johnson was manically disorganised about everything but his own career. He said he wouldn't trust Johnson with his wife or (from bitter experience) with his wallet. He said people didn't understand the level of sheer nastiness in Johnson's personality.
Conversely, perhaps his comment about Johnson was more from a vindictive point of view.
As you said BST, they had history.
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Hmmm...what could possibly have made Hastings vindictive to Johnson..?
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Tyke.
I recognise them 100%. I just disagree that taking a wrecking ball to the issue will help overall.
At base, if people are getting on economically, no-one really gives a shit about immigration. That is demonstrated throughout history. Anti-immigrant stances become prominent when people are struggling economically.
So to address an immigration issue by choosing to make ourselves markedly less wealthy for a generation, while in practice doing nothing to limit immigration is not a recipe for dealing with this issue. It is likely to make the resentment and anger far, far worse when people realise that they aren't getting the brighter future they were promised.
Billy
There is no economic benefit of membership of the EU for many of leave voters because it's a neoliberal and market led organisation .
Thatcher destroyed areas around here and Blair didn't do enough to improve things .
So they hang their hat on culture and their communities .
Multiculturalism is embraced by the graduate and big city metropolitan voter , they move around more , their jobs take them abroad etc ..... I get it .
However millions don't , they have low paid jobs and stay in the communities they were born in and make the best of that .
They don't want to see their communities change or their values challenged ...... mars and venus mate .
I firmly believe many are prepared to take the economic hit in return to live in communities they desire .
They have nowt anyway other than their family , community and their cultural values .
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I've just been listening to the BBC Reith Lecture. Mark Carney, former Governor of the Bank of England talking about the lessons from the Great Financial Crash.
He was Governor of the Bank of Canada at the time. He says the bleakest moment was at a meeting in Washington as the global financial system was collapsing around them, and Brown's Govt led the way in sorting out the international response.
Somehow, I struggle to see anyone in the early 2030s looking back to this period and seeing Johnson as a visionary world leader.
Hound. Yeah,like Hastings, I once had to sack someone for dishonesty and deception. I've since told other employers in the field what my experiences with this person were. You may call that vindictiveness. I call it social responsibility.
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Talks to find a post-Brexit trade deal will "go the extra mile" beyond Sunday's deadline in bid to reach agreement, says EU chief
This breaking news story is being updated and more details will be published shortly. Please refresh the page for the fullest version.
Maybe another more 4 years just might do the trick
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I love deadlines. It's the whoosing sound they make as they go by.
Douglas Adams
Als the author of other such gems as:
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
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I love deadlines. It's the whoosing sound they make as they go by.
Douglas Adams
Als the author of other such gems as:
A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools.
Especially those who inhabit no 10..
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Tyke.
I recognise them 100%. I just disagree that taking a wrecking ball to the issue will help overall.
At base, if people are getting on economically, no-one really gives a shit about immigration. That is demonstrated throughout history. Anti-immigrant stances become prominent when people are struggling economically.
So to address an immigration issue by choosing to make ourselves markedly less wealthy for a generation, while in practice doing nothing to limit immigration is not a recipe for dealing with this issue. It is likely to make the resentment and anger far, far worse when people realise that they aren't getting the brighter future they were promised.
Billy
There is no economic benefit of membership of the EU for many of leave voters because it's a neoliberal and market led organisation .
Thatcher destroyed areas around here and Blair didn't do enough to improve things .
So they hang their hat on culture and their communities .
Multiculturalism is embraced by the graduate and big city metropolitan voter , they move around more , their jobs take them abroad etc ..... I get it .
However millions don't , they have low paid jobs and stay in the communities they were born in and make the best of that .
They don't want to see their communities change or their values challenged ...... mars and venus mate .
I firmly believe many are prepared to take the economic hit in return to live in communities they desire .
They have nowt anyway other than their family , community and their cultural values .
Well that's wrong. In South Yorkshire the EU has invested over £200m into projects that have created local jobs. The EU prioritise funding to the areas which are most neglected in funding by their nations government which South Yorkshire is one of them...
https://www.myeu.uk/area/DN
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Tyke.
I recognise them 100%. I just disagree that taking a wrecking ball to the issue will help overall.
At base, if people are getting on economically, no-one really gives a shit about immigration. That is demonstrated throughout history. Anti-immigrant stances become prominent when people are struggling economically.
So to address an immigration issue by choosing to make ourselves markedly less wealthy for a generation, while in practice doing nothing to limit immigration is not a recipe for dealing with this issue. It is likely to make the resentment and anger far, far worse when people realise that they aren't getting the brighter future they were promised.
Billy
There is no economic benefit of membership of the EU for many of leave voters because it's a neoliberal and market led organisation .
Thatcher destroyed areas around here and Blair didn't do enough to improve things .
So they hang their hat on culture and their communities .
Multiculturalism is embraced by the graduate and big city metropolitan voter , they move around more , their jobs take them abroad etc ..... I get it .
However millions don't , they have low paid jobs and stay in the communities they were born in and make the best of that .
They don't want to see their communities change or their values challenged ...... mars and venus mate .
I firmly believe many are prepared to take the economic hit in return to live in communities they desire .
They have nowt anyway other than their family , community and their cultural values .
Colours well and truly nailed there, Tyke. What bizarre logic you have.
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It's a funny 'neoliberal' 'market led' organisation that has centralised interventionist policies such as CAP as an integral part of what they do.
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I get the feeling there will be a deal, we are just watching the theatrics playing out now
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Tyke.
I recognise them 100%. I just disagree that taking a wrecking ball to the issue will help overall.
At base, if people are getting on economically, no-one really gives a shit about immigration. That is demonstrated throughout history. Anti-immigrant stances become prominent when people are struggling economically.
So to address an immigration issue by choosing to make ourselves markedly less wealthy for a generation, while in practice doing nothing to limit immigration is not a recipe for dealing with this issue. It is likely to make the resentment and anger far, far worse when people realise that they aren't getting the brighter future they were promised.
Billy
There is no economic benefit of membership of the EU for many of leave voters because it's a neoliberal and market led organisation .
Thatcher destroyed areas around here and Blair didn't do enough to improve things .
So they hang their hat on culture and their communities .
Multiculturalism is embraced by the graduate and big city metropolitan voter , they move around more , their jobs take them abroad etc ..... I get it .
However millions don't , they have low paid jobs and stay in the communities they were born in and make the best of that .
They don't want to see their communities change or their values challenged ...... mars and venus mate .
I firmly believe many are prepared to take the economic hit in return to live in communities they desire .
They have nowt anyway other than their family , community and their cultural values .
Colours well and truly nailed there, Tyke. What bizarre logic you have.
I wonder what those people who voted to leave the EU because of 'multiculturism' think to 600000 Chinese people arriving in the UK in the next 2 years?
https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2020/12/14/2003748697
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Anyone selling waterproof jackets, hats, gloves and scarves should experience a rise in sales I suppose.
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I get the feeling there will be a deal, we are just watching the theatrics playing out now
If I could believe that this government is either organised, trustworthy or just plain clued up enough for this to be likely it would be some small comfort. As it is...
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How many neo-liberal and market-led organisations impose environmental and worker condition standards on companies? How many of them disburse billions of euros to economically disadvantaged areas?
If we had stayed in the EU, South Yorkshire would have been in line for €3.3bn of money from the EU over the next 7 years. Paid for by the tax payers of Milan, Frankfurt, Stockholm and Barcelona.
Unfortunately, Tyke and his mates decided that we were better off telling them to stick that, and empowering the most right wing Tory party in our lifetimes to decide how our economy should be run. Because...well Christ knows to be honest.
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How many neo-liberal and market-led organisations impose environmental and worker condition standards on companies? How many of them disburse billions of euros to economically disadvantaged areas?
If we had stayed in the EU, South Yorkshire would have been in line for €3.3bn of money from the EU over the next 7 years. Paid for by the tax payers of Milan, Frankfurt, Stockholm and Barcelona.
Unfortunately, Tyke and his mates decided that we were better off telling them to stick that, and empowering the most right wing Tory party in our lifetimes to decide how our economy should be run. Because...well Christ knows to be honest.
Explain to me how this works pls BST. As a nation we were a net contributor to the EU. Why would money spent here be then from another country rather than simply our contribution back
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How many neo-liberal and market-led organisations impose environmental and worker condition standards on companies? How many of them disburse billions of euros to economically disadvantaged areas?
If we had stayed in the EU, South Yorkshire would have been in line for €3.3bn of money from the EU over the next 7 years. Paid for by the tax payers of Milan, Frankfurt, Stockholm and Barcelona.
Unfortunately, Tyke and his mates decided that we were better off telling them to stick that, and empowering the most right wing Tory party in our lifetimes to decide how our economy should be run. Because...well Christ knows to be honest.
Billy have you ever tried looking at life without a monetary mandate ? .
You sound more like Thatcher every day .
There's no such thing as society ..... right !! .
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Tyke.
I recognise them 100%. I just disagree that taking a wrecking ball to the issue will help overall.
At base, if people are getting on economically, no-one really gives a shit about immigration. That is demonstrated throughout history. Anti-immigrant stances become prominent when people are struggling economically.
So to address an immigration issue by choosing to make ourselves markedly less wealthy for a generation, while in practice doing nothing to limit immigration is not a recipe for dealing with this issue. It is likely to make the resentment and anger far, far worse when people realise that they aren't getting the brighter future they were promised.
Billy
There is no economic benefit of membership of the EU for many of leave voters because it's a neoliberal and market led organisation .
Thatcher destroyed areas around here and Blair didn't do enough to improve things .
So they hang their hat on culture and their communities .
Multiculturalism is embraced by the graduate and big city metropolitan voter , they move around more , their jobs take them abroad etc ..... I get it .
However millions don't , they have low paid jobs and stay in the communities they were born in and make the best of that .
They don't want to see their communities change or their values challenged ...... mars and venus mate .
I firmly believe many are prepared to take the economic hit in return to live in communities they desire .
They have nowt anyway other than their family , community and their cultural values .
Colours well and truly nailed there, Tyke. What bizarre logic you have.
I wonder what those people who voted to leave the EU because of 'multiculturism' think to 600000 Chinese people arriving in the UK in the next 2 years?
https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2020/12/14/2003748697
Tell thi what Wilts .
Why don't you come up one day from Wiltshire and have a walk around that big estate at Rosso and tell em how good multiculturalism is .
Let me know how you go on .
-
Good ol' xenophobia, we got there in the end.
-
How many neo-liberal and market-led organisations impose environmental and worker condition standards on companies? How many of them disburse billions of euros to economically disadvantaged areas?
If we had stayed in the EU, South Yorkshire would have been in line for €3.3bn of money from the EU over the next 7 years. Paid for by the tax payers of Milan, Frankfurt, Stockholm and Barcelona.
Unfortunately, Tyke and his mates decided that we were better off telling them to stick that, and empowering the most right wing Tory party in our lifetimes to decide how our economy should be run. Because...well Christ knows to be honest.
Billy have you ever tried looking at life without a monetary mandate ? .
You sound more like Thatcher every day .
There's no such thing as society ..... right !! .
You're not wrong at all Tyke, there is society but when you separate it from access to money then society breaks down, not money per se but the ability to feed, clothe and have a roof.
Look at the famine in Ireland where aound a million died and 2 million left. After ww2 a couple of million left Britain. People, not all of course but leave for more prosperous areas within and without the country to form and join new societies.
I'm not saying society will break down to that extent but over time people, younger people just get up and go.
-
Good ol' xenophobia, we got there in the end.
Thanks Glyn , I wouldn't have expected anything less from people such as yourself .
That's all I have , you ain't worth the bother , accept at the ballot box ....... you lose .
The ballot box is king pal .
-
Tyke.
I recognise them 100%. I just disagree that taking a wrecking ball to the issue will help overall.
At base, if people are getting on economically, no-one really gives a shit about immigration. That is demonstrated throughout history. Anti-immigrant stances become prominent when people are struggling economically.
So to address an immigration issue by choosing to make ourselves markedly less wealthy for a generation, while in practice doing nothing to limit immigration is not a recipe for dealing with this issue. It is likely to make the resentment and anger far, far worse when people realise that they aren't getting the brighter future they were promised.
Billy
There is no economic benefit of membership of the EU for many of leave voters because it's a neoliberal and market led organisation .
Thatcher destroyed areas around here and Blair didn't do enough to improve things .
So they hang their hat on culture and their communities .
Multiculturalism is embraced by the graduate and big city metropolitan voter , they move around more , their jobs take them abroad etc ..... I get it .
However millions don't , they have low paid jobs and stay in the communities they were born in and make the best of that .
They don't want to see their communities change or their values challenged ...... mars and venus mate .
I firmly believe many are prepared to take the economic hit in return to live in communities they desire .
They have nowt anyway other than their family , community and their cultural values .
Colours well and truly nailed there, Tyke. What bizarre logic you have.
I wonder what those people who voted to leave the EU because of 'multiculturism' think to 600000 Chinese people arriving in the UK in the next 2 years?
https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2020/12/14/2003748697
Tell thi what Wilts .
Why don't you come up one day from Wiltshire and have a walk around that big estate at Rosso and tell em how good multiculturalism is .
Let me know how you go on .
Nah, the Mail and the Express can do that for them already....
(https://i.imgur.com/MYv1yFA.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/g5bLcRL.jpg)
I'm guessing you believe this shit too Tyke?
-
Wilt's those 600000 Chinese from Hong Kong are escaping a regime that want to dictate everything about their life, subjugate them to their rules and dictate their working lives and what they are allowed to doand integrate them into China, the same with Taiwan
Seventeen million voted to escape a similar regime that has developed in Brussels, and now want you to crawl over broken glass. If China were doing to Hong Kong and Taiwan what the EU are trying to do to the UK the western world's press would be all over it.
The Americans and Australian navies are sailing war ships and flying aircraft every day in and over seas that China are trying to claim from other countries because of the other countries sovereignty, yet you support France's right to roll all over our rights.
I suppose if Hong Kong and Taiwan had Tory leaders you wouldn't mind just giving them to China.
-
Wilt's those 600000 Chinese from Hong Kong are escaping a regime that want to dictate everything about their life, subjugate them to their rules and dictate their working lives and what they are allowed to doand integrate them into China, the same with Taiwan
Seventeen million voted to escape a similar regime that has developed in Brussels, and now want you to crawl over broken glass. If China were doing to Hong Kong and Taiwan what the EU are trying to do to the UK the western world's press would be all over it.
The Americans and Australian navies are sailing war ships and flying aircraft every day in and over seas that China are trying to claim from other countries because of the other countries sovereignty, yet you support France's right to roll all over our rights.
I suppose if Hong Kong and Taiwan had Tory leaders you wouldn't mind just giving them to China.
Forgotten your medication again tonight Selby?
-
Jesus Selby you actually scare me sometimes. Some of your posts read like excerpts from a mass shooter's manifesto. I really have to wonder what happened to people like this to warp them so much.
-
The EU treatment of the UK similar to China’s treatment of Hong Kong.?
You’re having a bubble..
-
Good ol' xenophobia, we got there in the end.
Thanks Glyn , I wouldn't have expected anything less from people such as yourself .
That's all I have , you ain't worth the bother , accept at the ballot box ....... you lose .
The ballot box is king pal .
Well, when every other reason is stripped away and this argument is all you're left with, what do you expect others to think of you? The fact that it wins an election doesn't change its nature.
-
Tyke.
I recognise them 100%. I just disagree that taking a wrecking ball to the issue will help overall.
At base, if people are getting on economically, no-one really gives a shit about immigration. That is demonstrated throughout history. Anti-immigrant stances become prominent when people are struggling economically.
So to address an immigration issue by choosing to make ourselves markedly less wealthy for a generation, while in practice doing nothing to limit immigration is not a recipe for dealing with this issue. It is likely to make the resentment and anger far, far worse when people realise that they aren't getting the brighter future they were promised.
Billy
There is no economic benefit of membership of the EU for many of leave voters because it's a neoliberal and market led organisation .
Thatcher destroyed areas around here and Blair didn't do enough to improve things .
So they hang their hat on culture and their communities .
Multiculturalism is embraced by the graduate and big city metropolitan voter , they move around more , their jobs take them abroad etc ..... I get it .
However millions don't , they have low paid jobs and stay in the communities they were born in and make the best of that .
They don't want to see their communities change or their values challenged ...... mars and venus mate .
I firmly believe many are prepared to take the economic hit in return to live in communities they desire .
They have nowt anyway other than their family , community and their cultural values .
Colours well and truly nailed there, Tyke. What bizarre logic you have.
I wonder what those people who voted to leave the EU because of 'multiculturism' think to 600000 Chinese people arriving in the UK in the next 2 years?
https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2020/12/14/2003748697
Tell thi what Wilts .
Why don't you come up one day from Wiltshire and have a walk around that big estate at Rosso and tell em how good multiculturalism is .
Let me know how you go on .
Nah, the Mail and the Express can do that for them already....
(https://i.imgur.com/MYv1yFA.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/g5bLcRL.jpg)
I'm guessing you believe this shit too Tyke?
You guess ?
Of course you do .
Come to my doorstep with a red rosette on wanting my vote and throw this my way and I'll tell you this .
I'm more concerned about ZHC 's , the lack of affordable housing , in work poverty , foodbanks , the grug dealers across the road etc etc and I'll say said person with red rosette on will look at their feet .
Do I care about migrants crossing the channel yes I do but in some kind of order I have to say .
Until some of your tribe except that localised issues are more important than solving the world's problems you are electorally irrelevant .
That's a solid fact by the way .
-
Good ol' xenophobia, we got there in the end.
Thanks Glyn , I wouldn't have expected anything less from people such as yourself .
That's all I have , you ain't worth the bother , accept at the ballot box ....... you lose .
The ballot box is king pal .
Well, when every other reason is stripped away and this argument is all you're left with, what do you expect others to think of you? The fact that it wins an election doesn't change its nature.
Because you don't see my issue and the first port of call is THAT CARD .
It's all you have , you don't see I have a problem with globalisation and it's effects on areas like I live in .
So out it comes , the card to end the debate .
It's actually you who are out of touch and stupid if the truth be told .
-
Good ol' xenophobia, we got there in the end.
Thanks Glyn , I wouldn't have expected anything less from people such as yourself .
That's all I have , you ain't worth the bother , accept at the ballot box ....... you lose .
The ballot box is king pal .
Well, when every other reason is stripped away and this argument is all you're left with, what do you expect others to think of you? The fact that it wins an election doesn't change its nature.
Because you don't see my issue and the first port of call is THAT CARD .
It's all you have , you don't see I have a problem with globalisation and it's effects on areas like I live in .
So out it comes , the card to end the debate .
It's actually you who are out of touch and stupid if the truth be told .
I'm not ending any debate, feel free to tell us which particular migrants you have a problem with and how Brexit will solve it for you.
-
So when the Chinese give protesters a good hiding it is different to the Spanish Police in Barcelona is it?
When the British try to expel illegal migrants without threat to their lives, it is worse than the Greeks towing and turning back migrant inflatable boats in Dangerous seas Is it?
Close your eyes and bury your heads in the sand, everything is bright and shiny, or is it just forgettable in la la land.
-
So when the Chinese give protesters a good hiding it is different to the Spanish Police in Barcelona is it?
When the British try to expel illegal migrants without threat to their lives, it is worse than the Greeks towing and turning back migrant inflatable boats in Dangerous seas Is it?
Close your eyes and bury your heads in the sand, everything is bright and shiny, or is it just forgettable in la la land.
Can you not see the irony in the ending to your post?
-
So when the Chinese give protesters a good hiding it is different to the Spanish Police in Barcelona is it?
When the British try to expel illegal migrants without threat to their lives, it is worse than the Greeks towing and turning back migrant inflatable boats in Dangerous seas Is it?
Close your eyes and bury your heads in the sand, everything is bright and shiny, or is it just forgettable in la la land.
I'm amazed you're showing your face in this thread again after making such a complete pillock of yourself last time.
-
How many neo-liberal and market-led organisations impose environmental and worker condition standards on companies? How many of them disburse billions of euros to economically disadvantaged areas?
If we had stayed in the EU, South Yorkshire would have been in line for €3.3bn of money from the EU over the next 7 years. Paid for by the tax payers of Milan, Frankfurt, Stockholm and Barcelona.
Unfortunately, Tyke and his mates decided that we were better off telling them to stick that, and empowering the most right wing Tory party in our lifetimes to decide how our economy should be run. Because...well Christ knows to be honest.
Billy have you ever tried looking at life without a monetary mandate ? .
You sound more like Thatcher every day .
There's no such thing as society ..... right !! .
You're not wrong at all Tyke, there is society but when you separate it from access to money then society breaks down, not money per se but the ability to feed, clothe and have a roof.
Look at the famine in Ireland where aound a million died and 2 million left. After ww2 a couple of million left Britain. People, not all of course but leave for more prosperous areas within and without the country to form and join new societies.
I'm not saying society will break down to that extent but over time people, younger people just get up and go.
Ok Sydney I'll take this on .
Your going back in time to when the world was a different place .
So I'll ask you this question .
A 21 year old lad who is unskilled and wants to better him self away from the UK economically where does he go ?
If this thing is all things to all people meaning globalisation then it should be a very simple question to answer .
-
How many neo-liberal and market-led organisations impose environmental and worker condition standards on companies? How many of them disburse billions of euros to economically disadvantaged areas?
If we had stayed in the EU, South Yorkshire would have been in line for €3.3bn of money from the EU over the next 7 years. Paid for by the tax payers of Milan, Frankfurt, Stockholm and Barcelona.
Unfortunately, Tyke and his mates decided that we were better off telling them to stick that, and empowering the most right wing Tory party in our lifetimes to decide how our economy should be run. Because...well Christ knows to be honest.
Explain to me how this works pls BST. As a nation we were a net contributor to the EU. Why would money spent here be then from another country rather than simply our contribution back
Ldr
Experience of the past two generations of Tory Governments tells me that they choose not to spend UK money in South Yorkshire. If they did, we wouldn't be among the worst economically performing regions of Europe.
They had a chance to show us they were different with the Towns Fund before the last election. They chose to target that at marginal seats that they wanted to win, plus the seats of the two ministers who singed off the money, even though they didn't qualify.
The EU has a 60 year track record of supporting economically fragile regions and that has been a superb success story. It's based on a principle that a society where there are vast disparities of wealth and opportunity is not healthy, either socially, or, in the long run, economically. We in the UK have not had that sort of principle underpinning our policies for generations, especially under Tory Governments, which have seen the South East thrive and the North decay.
This Govt tells us they are different, but as I say, when they had the chance to demonstrate that...
Plus, there is the indisputable fact that the UK, outside the EU will be poorer as a whole and so have a smaller cake to divvy up. Again, over the long run, regions such as South Yorkshire would have benefited by direct transfer of the wealth of the successful regions of Europe (yes, including Guildford) to us. That will now not happen and we have to rely on a Tory Government to do it instead. I'm not holding my breath.
-
Tyke.
I recognise them 100%. I just disagree that taking a wrecking ball to the issue will help overall.
At base, if people are getting on economically, no-one really gives a shit about immigration. That is demonstrated throughout history. Anti-immigrant stances become prominent when people are struggling economically.
So to address an immigration issue by choosing to make ourselves markedly less wealthy for a generation, while in practice doing nothing to limit immigration is not a recipe for dealing with this issue. It is likely to make the resentment and anger far, far worse when people realise that they aren't getting the brighter future they were promised.
Billy
There is no economic benefit of membership of the EU for many of leave voters because it's a neoliberal and market led organisation .
Thatcher destroyed areas around here and Blair didn't do enough to improve things .
So they hang their hat on culture and their communities .
Multiculturalism is embraced by the graduate and big city metropolitan voter , they move around more , their jobs take them abroad etc ..... I get it .
However millions don't , they have low paid jobs and stay in the communities they were born in and make the best of that .
They don't want to see their communities change or their values challenged ...... mars and venus mate .
I firmly believe many are prepared to take the economic hit in return to live in communities they desire .
They have nowt anyway other than their family , community and their cultural values .
Colours well and truly nailed there, Tyke. What bizarre logic you have.
I wonder what those people who voted to leave the EU because of 'multiculturism' think to 600000 Chinese people arriving in the UK in the next 2 years?
https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2020/12/14/2003748697
Tell thi what Wilts .
Why don't you come up one day from Wiltshire and have a walk around that big estate at Rosso and tell em how good multiculturalism is .
Let me know how you go on .
Nah, the Mail and the Express can do that for them already....
(https://i.imgur.com/MYv1yFA.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/g5bLcRL.jpg)
I'm guessing you believe this shit too Tyke?
You guess ?
Of course you do .
Come to my doorstep with a red rosette on wanting my vote and throw this my way and I'll tell you this .
I'm more concerned about ZHC 's , the lack of affordable housing , in work poverty , foodbanks , the grug dealers across the road etc etc and I'll say said person with red rosette on will look at their feet .
Do I care about migrants crossing the channel yes I do but in some kind of order I have to say .
Until some of your tribe except that localised issues are more important than solving the world's problems you are electorally irrelevant .
That's a solid fact by the way .
Tyke, I'm truly glad you care about zero hour contracts, lack of affordable housing, in work poverty, the need for food banks and the menace of drug dealers; but none of those things are the result of globalisation and/or immigration.
The fault of all of those issues lies at the door of the right wing of this country, the Tory Party and the right wing media such as I have posted above, who's sole aim is to drag people by the nose into believing it's everyone else's, (and particularly foreigners), fault. A tactic that was used in Germany with some, regrettable, success in the 1930's.
It's a tragedy that people in this country haven't learned from that exercise; and a travesty that the right wing media are allowed to get away with such blatant and ill informed propaganda. Thank God the rest of Europe have. Whatever happened to education in this country?
-
Good ol' xenophobia, we got there in the end.
Thanks Glyn , I wouldn't have expected anything less from people such as yourself .
That's all I have , you ain't worth the bother , accept at the ballot box ....... you lose .
The ballot box is king pal .
Well, when every other reason is stripped away and this argument is all you're left with, what do you expect others to think of you? The fact that it wins an election doesn't change its nature.
Because you don't see my issue and the first port of call is THAT CARD .
It's all you have , you don't see I have a problem with globalisation and it's effects on areas like I live in .
So out it comes , the card to end the debate .
It's actually you who are out of touch and stupid if the truth be told .
I'm not ending any debate, feel free to tell us which particular migrants you have a problem with and how Brexit will solve it for you.
I'm not anti immigration , I'm anti mass immigration , there's a huge difference and leaving the EU gives the UK that control .
Huge amounts of cheap eastern european Labour isn't something to celebrate .
I'm at a loss as to why Labour Party people would embrace it but then again if you sell your heart n soul for free market economics for 13 years of power in return then you make your bed and have to lay in it .
The former red wall will now decide GE outcomes , from my point of you that ain't a bad thing .
In fact it's the best thing that could happen , no you won't take the vote for granted and give it there's no where else to go .
Actually that's proved to be not the case at the last election .
So you either get onside with the electorate in the former red wall or you lose .
There's very little to be gained by throwing your hands in the air at Johnson , the ERG etc when you are massively part of the problem .
-
Tyke.
I recognise them 100%. I just disagree that taking a wrecking ball to the issue will help overall.
At base, if people are getting on economically, no-one really gives a shit about immigration. That is demonstrated throughout history. Anti-immigrant stances become prominent when people are struggling economically.
So to address an immigration issue by choosing to make ourselves markedly less wealthy for a generation, while in practice doing nothing to limit immigration is not a recipe for dealing with this issue. It is likely to make the resentment and anger far, far worse when people realise that they aren't getting the brighter future they were promised.
Billy
There is no economic benefit of membership of the EU for many of leave voters because it's a neoliberal and market led organisation .
Thatcher destroyed areas around here and Blair didn't do enough to improve things .
So they hang their hat on culture and their communities .
Multiculturalism is embraced by the graduate and big city metropolitan voter , they move around more , their jobs take them abroad etc ..... I get it .
However millions don't , they have low paid jobs and stay in the communities they were born in and make the best of that .
They don't want to see their communities change or their values challenged ...... mars and venus mate .
I firmly believe many are prepared to take the economic hit in return to live in communities they desire .
They have nowt anyway other than their family , community and their cultural values .
Colours well and truly nailed there, Tyke. What bizarre logic you have.
I wonder what those people who voted to leave the EU because of 'multiculturism' think to 600000 Chinese people arriving in the UK in the next 2 years?
https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2020/12/14/2003748697
Tell thi what Wilts .
Why don't you come up one day from Wiltshire and have a walk around that big estate at Rosso and tell em how good multiculturalism is .
Let me know how you go on .
Nah, the Mail and the Express can do that for them already....
(https://i.imgur.com/MYv1yFA.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/g5bLcRL.jpg)
I'm guessing you believe this shit too Tyke?
You guess ?
Of course you do .
Come to my doorstep with a red rosette on wanting my vote and throw this my way and I'll tell you this .
I'm more concerned about ZHC 's , the lack of affordable housing , in work poverty , foodbanks , the grug dealers across the road etc etc and I'll say said person with red rosette on will look at their feet .
Do I care about migrants crossing the channel yes I do but in some kind of order I have to say .
Until some of your tribe except that localised issues are more important than solving the world's problems you are electorally irrelevant .
That's a solid fact by the way .
Tyke, I'm truly glad you care about zero hour contracts, lack of affordable housing, in work poverty, the need for food banks and the menace of drug dealers; but none of those things are the result of globalisation and/or immigration.
The fault of all of those issues lies at the door of the right wing of this country, the Tory Party and the right wing media such as I have posted above, who's sole aim is to drag people by the nose into believing it's everyone else's, (and particularly foreigners), fault. A tactic that was used in Germany with some, regrettable, success in the 1930's.
It's a tragedy that people in this country haven't learned from that exercise; and a travesty that the right wing media are allowed to get away with such blatant and ill informed propaganda. Thank God the rest of Europe have. Whatever happened to education in this country?
Why on earth are you choosing to die on a hill of right wing media and the tory party .
If you had a solid argument it would cut through right .
The same as it did in 1945 .
-
How many neo-liberal and market-led organisations impose environmental and worker condition standards on companies? How many of them disburse billions of euros to economically disadvantaged areas?
If we had stayed in the EU, South Yorkshire would have been in line for €3.3bn of money from the EU over the next 7 years. Paid for by the tax payers of Milan, Frankfurt, Stockholm and Barcelona.
Unfortunately, Tyke and his mates decided that we were better off telling them to stick that, and empowering the most right wing Tory party in our lifetimes to decide how our economy should be run. Because...well Christ knows to be honest.
Billy have you ever tried looking at life without a monetary mandate ? .
You sound more like Thatcher every day .
There's no such thing as society ..... right !! .
You're not wrong at all Tyke, there is society but when you separate it from access to money then society breaks down, not money per se but the ability to feed, clothe and have a roof.
Look at the famine in Ireland where aound a million died and 2 million left. After ww2 a couple of million left Britain. People, not all of course but leave for more prosperous areas within and without the country to form and join new societies.
I'm not saying society will break down to that extent but over time people, younger people just get up and go.
Ok Sydney I'll take this on .
Your going back in time to when the world was a different place .
So I'll ask you this question .
A 21 year old lad who is unskilled and wants to better him self away from the UK economically where does he go ?
If this thing is all things to all people meaning globalisation then it should be a very simple question to answer .
For a start if money had been spent across the UK in a fair manner there would be more opportunities in Sth Yks, but that doesn't stop young people from wanting to explore the world, many, as soon as they have their qualifications are off to find somewhere to use them. The EU as others say have ploughed money into the area, ask yourself why it was necessary. Look at Italy the villages in the hills are dying as the young move away it happens in Oz too not many really want to live the 'outback' life at all and until covid these places were dying too for the same reasons. In fact people that move to these areas to 'escape to the country' find it pretty hard going with the long term residents not wanting these 'new fangled friends'
Where does that 21 year old person go in the UK Tyke, into a zero hours contract? a better question would be why wasn't that 21 year old given every opportunity to skill up, johnson would be the person to answer that one.
-
Syd,Kato and most of the rest, if the rest of the left and union members had done the right thing and backed people like Tyke who took on the establishment and were dismissed publicly by Kinnock and the labour party and others who thought I am all right jack in their cushy numbers things might be different now.
You were told at the time its your turn next, well enjoy the trip.
-
Tyke.
I recognise them 100%. I just disagree that taking a wrecking ball to the issue will help overall.
At base, if people are getting on economically, no-one really gives a shit about immigration. That is demonstrated throughout history. Anti-immigrant stances become prominent when people are struggling economically.
So to address an immigration issue by choosing to make ourselves markedly less wealthy for a generation, while in practice doing nothing to limit immigration is not a recipe for dealing with this issue. It is likely to make the resentment and anger far, far worse when people realise that they aren't getting the brighter future they were promised.
Billy
There is no economic benefit of membership of the EU for many of leave voters because it's a neoliberal and market led organisation .
Thatcher destroyed areas around here and Blair didn't do enough to improve things .
So they hang their hat on culture and their communities .
Multiculturalism is embraced by the graduate and big city metropolitan voter , they move around more , their jobs take them abroad etc ..... I get it .
However millions don't , they have low paid jobs and stay in the communities they were born in and make the best of that .
They don't want to see their communities change or their values challenged ...... mars and venus mate .
I firmly believe many are prepared to take the economic hit in return to live in communities they desire .
They have nowt anyway other than their family , community and their cultural values .
Colours well and truly nailed there, Tyke. What bizarre logic you have.
I wonder what those people who voted to leave the EU because of 'multiculturism' think to 600000 Chinese people arriving in the UK in the next 2 years?
https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2020/12/14/2003748697
Tell thi what Wilts .
Why don't you come up one day from Wiltshire and have a walk around that big estate at Rosso and tell em how good multiculturalism is .
Let me know how you go on .
Nah, the Mail and the Express can do that for them already....
(https://i.imgur.com/MYv1yFA.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/g5bLcRL.jpg)
I'm guessing you believe this shit too Tyke?
You guess ?
Of course you do .
Come to my doorstep with a red rosette on wanting my vote and throw this my way and I'll tell you this .
I'm more concerned about ZHC 's , the lack of affordable housing , in work poverty , foodbanks , the grug dealers across the road etc etc and I'll say said person with red rosette on will look at their feet .
Do I care about migrants crossing the channel yes I do but in some kind of order I have to say .
Until some of your tribe except that localised issues are more important than solving the world's problems you are electorally irrelevant .
That's a solid fact by the way .
Tyke, I'm truly glad you care about zero hour contracts, lack of affordable housing, in work poverty, the need for food banks and the menace of drug dealers; but none of those things are the result of globalisation and/or immigration.
The fault of all of those issues lies at the door of the right wing of this country, the Tory Party and the right wing media such as I have posted above, who's sole aim is to drag people by the nose into believing it's everyone else's, (and particularly foreigners), fault. A tactic that was used in Germany with some, regrettable, success in the 1930's.
It's a tragedy that people in this country haven't learned from that exercise; and a travesty that the right wing media are allowed to get away with such blatant and ill informed propaganda. Thank God the rest of Europe have. Whatever happened to education in this country?
Why on earth are you choosing to die on a hill of right wing media and the tory party .
If you had a solid argument it would cut through right .
The same as it did in 1945 .
If anyone is dying on the hill of right wing media and the Tory party it's you Tyke.
Form your own words I'm not anti immigration , I'm anti mass immigration , there's a huge difference and leaving the EU gives the UK that control .
So where do you get the 'mass immigration' bit from? The only time I've seen it mentioned anywhere is in the likes of the Mail, Express, Sun etc - you know, the right wing media. And from the mouths of Tory politicians when being interviewed on TV and in rally propaganda. And let's not forget all the media exposure given to Farage to peddle his hatred of foreigners. Here's on of his favourites just to remind you....
(https://i.imgur.com/KQgVYpd.jpg)
And as for controlling our borders, we always could, we didn't have to leave the EU to be able to do that - but again you fell for the propaganda of the right. And you accuse me of dying on the hill of the right!
Sheesh!
-
How many neo-liberal and market-led organisations impose environmental and worker condition standards on companies? How many of them disburse billions of euros to economically disadvantaged areas?
If we had stayed in the EU, South Yorkshire would have been in line for €3.3bn of money from the EU over the next 7 years. Paid for by the tax payers of Milan, Frankfurt, Stockholm and Barcelona.
Unfortunately, Tyke and his mates decided that we were better off telling them to stick that, and empowering the most right wing Tory party in our lifetimes to decide how our economy should be run. Because...well Christ knows to be honest.
Billy have you ever tried looking at life without a monetary mandate ? .
You sound more like Thatcher every day .
There's no such thing as society ..... right !! .
You're not wrong at all Tyke, there is society but when you separate it from access to money then society breaks down, not money per se but the ability to feed, clothe and have a roof.
Look at the famine in Ireland where aound a million died and 2 million left. After ww2 a couple of million left Britain. People, not all of course but leave for more prosperous areas within and without the country to form and join new societies.
I'm not saying society will break down to that extent but over time people, younger people just get up and go.
Ok Sydney I'll take this on .
Your going back in time to when the world was a different place .
So I'll ask you this question .
A 21 year old lad who is unskilled and wants to better him self away from the UK economically where does he go ?
If this thing is all things to all people meaning globalisation then it should be a very simple question to answer .
For a start if money had been spent across the UK in a fair manner there would be more opportunities in Sth Yks, but that doesn't stop young people from wanting to explore the world, many, as soon as they have their qualifications are off to find somewhere to use them. The EU as others say have ploughed money into the area, ask yourself why it was necessary. Look at Italy the villages in the hills are dying as the young move away it happens in Oz too not many really want to live the 'outback' life at all and until covid these places were dying too for the same reasons. In fact people that move to these areas to 'escape to the country' find it pretty hard going with the long term residents not wanting these 'new fangled friends'
Where does that 21 year old person go in the UK Tyke, into a zero hours contract? a better question would be why wasn't that 21 year old given every opportunity to skill up, johnson would be the person to answer that one.
It's the same across the world though isn't it? Young people with aspirations is a great thing, accomodating that is hard. Neither me or my wife have ever worked in Doncaster in our professional lives, it's a shame but how the area is.
But other countries are the same. I've had many colleagues who work in the UK from.abroad because the jobs aren't there, these being from all over the world from Europe to Asia, new Zealand etc. Perhaps remote working will empower a better balance and spread professional wealth a little better?
I graduated one week after the coalition government was formed in 2010. Next to no jobs, nothing local and again I had to leave Doncaster for opportunities. It's not a new thing and little to me has changed. So all that EU money, has it achieved the right things?
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Probably the Farage one was taken at a Test Match given the circular nature of the grass to the left anyway
Despicableme (him that is)
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(https://i.imgur.com/lShmPMx.jpg)
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Probably the Farage one was taken at a Test Match given the circular nature of the grass to the left anyway
Despicableme (him that is)
I do believe that Farage & the leave campaigns got the idea from something the National Socialist party in Germany used just before WW2.
(https://i.imgur.com/Bgu6pYW.jpg)
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I do believe that Farage & the leave campaigns got the idea from something the National Socialist party in Germany used just before WW2.
(https://i.imgur.com/Bgu6pYW.jpg)
^ and that is why Farage and his ilk have always been c*nts, and all ways will be
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Tyke.
I recognise them 100%. I just disagree that taking a wrecking ball to the issue will help overall.
At base, if people are getting on economically, no-one really gives a shit about immigration. That is demonstrated throughout history. Anti-immigrant stances become prominent when people are struggling economically.
So to address an immigration issue by choosing to make ourselves markedly less wealthy for a generation, while in practice doing nothing to limit immigration is not a recipe for dealing with this issue. It is likely to make the resentment and anger far, far worse when people realise that they aren't getting the brighter future they were promised.
Billy
There is no economic benefit of membership of the EU for many of leave voters because it's a neoliberal and market led organisation .
Thatcher destroyed areas around here and Blair didn't do enough to improve things .
So they hang their hat on culture and their communities .
Multiculturalism is embraced by the graduate and big city metropolitan voter , they move around more , their jobs take them abroad etc ..... I get it .
However millions don't , they have low paid jobs and stay in the communities they were born in and make the best of that .
They don't want to see their communities change or their values challenged ...... mars and venus mate .
I firmly believe many are prepared to take the economic hit in return to live in communities they desire .
They have nowt anyway other than their family , community and their cultural values .
Colours well and truly nailed there, Tyke. What bizarre logic you have.
I wonder what those people who voted to leave the EU because of 'multiculturism' think to 600000 Chinese people arriving in the UK in the next 2 years?
https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2020/12/14/2003748697
Tell thi what Wilts .
Why don't you come up one day from Wiltshire and have a walk around that big estate at Rosso and tell em how good multiculturalism is .
Let me know how you go on .
Well some seemingly intelligent people have managed to con them that the policies of the British government were the fault of the EU so they're hardly going to listen to me if they want to recreate the NF/BNP. The 600000 Chinese people from Hong Kong due to start arriving on 1st January 2021 being the case in point.
I would be delighted to take you on a multi-cultural tour of Bristol should you ever be down in this part of the world. You might learn something.
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Wilt's those 600000 Chinese from Hong Kong are escaping a regime that want to dictate everything about their life, subjugate them to their rules and dictate their working lives and what they are allowed to doand integrate them into China, the same with Taiwan
Seventeen million voted to escape a similar regime that has developed in Brussels, and now want you to crawl over broken glass. If China were doing to Hong Kong and Taiwan what the EU are trying to do to the UK the western world's press would be all over it.
The Americans and Australian navies are sailing war ships and flying aircraft every day in and over seas that China are trying to claim from other countries because of the other countries sovereignty, yet you support France's right to roll all over our rights.
I suppose if Hong Kong and Taiwan had Tory leaders you wouldn't mind just giving them to China.
Glad to know that you acknowedge immigration into this country has more to do with the policies of the British government than those of the EU Selby. And well said also for acknowleding also that the EU has a moral right to look after people from it's former colonies.
The EU & the UK are negotiating a trade treaty btw. Sovereignty gives them the right to negotiate the conditions of that treaty. That's it. That's all it means. If you think it means any more than that - you've been conned.
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Glyn, you missed the first two words hard faced pillock, that's the reason the last four years it has been easy to make money on the markets and why I can buy and sell people like you who think they are smart.
Keep working hard at it Glyn and you will be too busy to make a lot of money.
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Glyn, you missed the first two words hard faced pillock, that's the reason the last four years it has been easy to make money on the markets and why I can buy and sell people like you who think they are smart.
Keep working hard at it Glyn and you will be too busy to make a lot of money.
You mean the first two words of this piece of utter stupidity, that makes you look an utter pillock? How do the first two words of this say that you don't think exporters pay the tariffs?
Glynn, tariffs are levied by the country receiving the goods and paid by the exporter
When I was raising assessments for Customs Duty and making the importers and not the exporters pay them for all those years was I (and the rest of HMC&E/HMRC) really getting it wrong all the time? Or have you shown yourself up as the complete ignoramus about International Trade that you truly are?
Who do the rest of you think is right?
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Anyone know what this is and who agrees with it:
Reduce Immigration
Reject the Common Market
Make Britain Great Again
Scrap Overseas Aid
Rebuild our Armed Forces
of course you knew all the time - its the manefesto of the National Front
https://twitter.com/scotwilliams/status/986182667673751552
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Tweet from Nicholas Watt
Big buzz in the last hour among Tory MPs that the UK is heading towards a Brexit deal with the EU. Eurosceptics being reassured they will be happy.
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Tweet from Nicholas Watt
Big buzz in the last hour among Tory MPs that the UK is heading towards a Brexit deal with the EU. Eurosceptics being reassured they will be happy.
No surprise if true. No matter how crap it is Johnson will come on Tele waving a piece of paper like Neville Chamberlain on acid, with a broad grin to tell us about his wonderful (crap) deal.
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Tweet from Nicholas Watt
Big buzz in the last hour among Tory MPs that the UK is heading towards a Brexit deal with the EU. Eurosceptics being reassured they will be happy.
Given that this time last year he was telling us that he had a great deal that was oven ready to go - which he then had to break international law in the summer to change because it was rushed and unsatisfactory, I think he Eurosceptics might just keep being sceptic for a bit a longer. As they know him better than we do!
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But I thought that any deal was better than no deal.
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It is. It just might not be very much better.
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Hindsight will tell us then.
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I hope to God the government aren't relying on hindsight to work out what deal will be good for the country.
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Will we immediately know.
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Who says the Germans don't have a sense of humour....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpncrBOdjaE
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Anyone know what this is and who agrees with it:
Reduce Immigration
Reject the Common Market
Make Britain Great Again
Scrap Overseas Aid
Rebuild our Armed Forces
of course you knew all the time - its the manefesto of the National Front
What's wrong with any of that?
https://twitter.com/scotwilliams/status/986182667673751552
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Anyone know what this is and who agrees with it:
Reduce Immigration
Reject the Common Market
Make Britain Great Again
Scrap Overseas Aid
Rebuild our Armed Forces
of course you knew all the time - its the manefesto of the National Front
What's wrong with any of that?
https://twitter.com/scotwilliams/status/986182667673751552
I'm not a fascist rascist. It's a complete coincidence I support the same things they do.
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Seems the folks in Sunderland got what they knew they were voting for....
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Automobiles/Nissan-picks-Japan-not-Britain-to-make-Ariya-electric-car-for-EU
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''Brexit: Boris Johnson says talks in a 'serious situation' after call with EU chief''
and up to this point?
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Well. We took back control.
https://mobile.twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1339851685666144258
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Well. We took back control.
https://mobile.twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1339851685666144258
And that's before the Customs Controls start on Jan 1st...
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We're all doomed. It's going to be a right laugh in the homes of you Covid lockdown remainers this year. We'll be fine, keep smiling.
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We're all doomed. It's going to be a right laugh in the homes of you Covid lockdown remainers this year. We'll be fine, keep smiling.
But most importantly of all, keep booing. It's a right laugh. :silly:
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Well. We took back control.
https://mobile.twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1339851685666144258
Some of the comments from leavers on there are simply mind boggling. So much stupidity in one single thread!
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We're all doomed. It's going to be a right laugh in the homes of you Covid lockdown remainers this year. We'll be fine, keep smiling.
But most importantly of all, keep booing. It's a right laugh. :silly:
B
L
M
Boo Like Millwall.
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We're all doomed. It's going to be a right laugh in the homes of you Covid lockdown remainers this year. We'll be fine, keep smiling.
But most importantly of all, keep booing. It's a right laugh. :silly:
B
L
M
Boo Like Millwall.
See? I said it was a right laugh! :silly:
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We're all doomed. It's going to be a right laugh in the homes of you Covid lockdown remainers this year. We'll be fine, keep smiling.
Phew. So glad we will be fine.
Was worried for a second there that I was running a business that was trying to plan for 2021 (which is less than a fortnight away) and we still had very little clarity on what the additional costs, tariffs, reputational damage, refund liabilities and costly time consuming admin might be with regards to the hundreds of customers we ship time-sensitive products to on the island of Ireland each week (a large section of which, is actually part of this country).
But hey, "f**k business" eh? They're all just run by millionaire elites anyway. It can't possibly affect ordinary people who have built a business from nothing but their own savings over the space of several years, have never taken any financial support from the state (until this year), have employed local people in meaningful jobs with respectable wages, and have paid out hundreds of thousands to the state in corporation taxes, PAYE tax and VAT without a quibble or delay.
So glad, after all, that there is nothing to worry about.
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Look who’s crawled out of the woodwork
https://twitter.com/gbnews24_7/status/1340736359523237888?s=21
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Is that because charges have now been dropped against the un named MP in the secual misconduct case? Who would have thought it, place in the Cabinet for that lucky man in the next reshuffle nailed on
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And here we have it folks
French Transport minister says ALL traffic from Uk halted for 48 hours under emergency restrictions
The tap can be turned on or off as they like in the future from Jan onwards
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Looks like Europe has brought forward Brexit, Eurotunnel closed and travel by air and sea banned to and from the UK
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This Brexit situation is going to be so good for the UK....... isn’t it?
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This Brexit situation is going to be so good for the UK....... isn’t it?
I wonder how many of the 17.2 million are thinking the same now, eh.?
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Don't worry Axholme said we'll be reyt.
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Looks like Europe has brought forward Brexit, Eurotunnel closed and travel by air and sea banned to and from the UK
but we have taken back control...
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Looks like Europe has brought forward Brexit, Eurotunnel closed and travel by air and sea banned to and from the UK
but we have taken back control...
And so have the French! Good for them, eh?
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Don't worry Axholme said we'll be reyt.
You beat me to it! :lol:
Life goes on. It's like talking to my Mrs on here, she always worries about things that may/may not happen. I tell her there's no point in fretting over what hasn't happened yet. Even if bad things do happen you just pick yourself up and crack on, it's the only way to be.
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Seems we didn't just sell some of our fishing rights, one of our past Kings gave some away in perpetuity....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55190259
I wonder if anyone has told Boris
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I rarely feel ashamed to be British but there's something about sharing a nationality with this piece of shite that makes my skin crawl.
https://mobile.twitter.com/kelvmackenzie/status/1341435277001285635
He is more responsible than anyone in the country for the ignorant Little Englander mentality that is so prevalent. Never missed an opportunity to whip up xenophobia.
And, as usual, he doesn't even get his facts right. France has been an ally of the UK in every major war of the past 200 years.
t**t.
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I rarely feel ashamed to be British but there's something about sharing a nationality with this piece of shite that makes my skin crawl.
https://mobile.twitter.com/kelvmackenzie/status/1341435277001285635
He is more responsible than anyone in the country for the ignorant Little Englander mentality that is so prevalent. Never missed an opportunity to whip up xenophobia.
And, as usual, he doesn't even get his facts right. France has been an ally of the UK in every major war of the past 200 years.
t**t.
I agree with your point absolutely his language is ridiculous. But they weren't an ally as such in the Falklands were they? Even still that was 40 years ago now.
I don't think Macron has done the right things right now though. Just look at the French hauliers being interviewed on the news. One to quote said he had no issue with UK authorities but solely with Macron. I do doubt that action would have been taken without brexit talks ongoing.
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We could solve it in a week, send the lorries to car parks in the centre of London and send the French government the bill.
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We could solve it in a week, send the lorries to car parks in the centre of London and send the French government the bill.
Aye, that will really get your fruit and veg delivered when empty lorries are parked up on Regent Street
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BFYP
Mitterrand immediately banned arms sales to Argentina when the war started. Our Defence Secretary said France was our most important ally in the Falklands War.
Regarding the current issue, the UK Govt announced that the new mutation which is believed to be up to 100% more transmissible was "out of control". Those were the precise words from Hancock. Over 40 countries have banned travel from the UK. What exactly was Macron supposed to do?
Flip it the other way. If the most dangerous mutation of the virus anywhere in the world was centred in Pas de Calais and Macron had gone on TV and said it was out of control, don't you think we'd be justified in closing the Dover crossing while we sorted out a testing regime? It would be criminally incompetent not to.
This "taking back control" thing works both ways.
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#skynews - The government say you should go to Manston to get tested?
That's lies... they locked the gates at Manston... so the #LorryDrivers are prisoner... & that's against the law... the army were supposed to be testing at the port this morning... it's lies.
https://twitter.com/Haggis_UK/status/1341689743772422144
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According to Sky News the new strain has also been found in Belgium Gibraltar Denmark and Italy, well the Lord did say share with your fellow man.
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According to Sky News the new strain has also been found in Belgium Gibraltar Denmark and Italy, well the Lord did say share with your fellow man.
Hong Kong as well, I have just been reading.
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The EU has outsmarted the UK at every turn say that lefty, marxist rag, the err Daily Telegraph:
https://twitter.com/DavidHenigUK/status/1341743000951672837
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I think we should see what's in the deal first. To even get a deal is a pretty big feat for both EU and UK. Let's see if they finally as rumoured agree it today/tomorrow. It's in all of our interests then to make whatever it is work.
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I think we should see what's in the deal first. To even get a deal is a pretty big feat for both EU and UK. Let's see if they finally as rumoured agree it today/tomorrow. It's in all of our interests then to make whatever it is work.
Absolutely spot on, Big.
Simple, clear, concise and sensible.
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BFYP.
Absolutely it is our interests to make it work. But be clear. There is no possible future world in which "making it work" means we are not a large amount poorer than we would have been if we hadn't left the SM. It's just a case of minimising the negative hit as much as we can.
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Apparently, a deal is imminent
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/23/eu-countries-prepare-for-possible-imminent-brexit-deal
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BFYP.
Absolutely it is our interests to make it work. But be clear. There is no possible future world in which "making it work" means we are not a large amount poorer than we would have been if we hadn't left the SM. It's just a case of minimising the negative hit as much as we can.
Of course you assume everyone is equal, there will be many winners and losers. A new era is something we should be excited about isn't it rather than focussing on the negatives?
Also once the EU deal is done a better devolution process from westminster should imo of course.
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On average BFYP, we will be poorer. No economist anywhere in the world outside a slack handful of extreme free market radicals are making the case that this will not be a big hit. And even those say that we'd need huge social upheaval to see any long term benefit. They talk about doing away with all tariffs, accepting that this would destroy what's left of our manufacturing industry, and say that would require the "managed decline" of Northern towns.
So forgive me if I don't share your excitement in the dawn of a new era. It would be a new era for my company if we chose to burn £5 in every £100 that we earn, but I wouldn't rush to it with open arms. And that loss is about the average of what economists are predicting the net effect will be of leaving the SM.
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By poorer, BST, can we assume by your statistics you only mean financially poorer (on average)?
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BFYP.
Absolutely it is our interests to make it work. But be clear. There is no possible future world in which "making it work" means we are not a large amount poorer than we would have been if we hadn't left the SM. It's just a case of minimising the negative hit as much as we can.
Of course you assume everyone is equal, there will be many winners and losers. A new era is something we should be excited about isn't it rather than focussing on the negatives?
Also once the EU deal is done a better devolution process from westminster should imo of course.
But doesn't that depend on how beneficial this new age will be BFYP - as opposed to it just happening?
The Industrial Revolution was a wonderful time for the mill/factory/mine & property owners - but not so great for those who worked in them or lived in their slums. It took over a hundred and fifty years and two world wars for ordinary people to have decent and safe working conditions and decent health care - they can go a lot quicker.
Brexit was a project devised and implemented by people who want to turn the UK into a de-regulated tax haven with lower workplace and environmental standards.
If this doesn't happen it will be a good thing. If it does, well...
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Apparently, a deal is imminent
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/23/eu-countries-prepare-for-possible-imminent-brexit-deal
I think when the PM and Shapps had a private little chuckle between them the other night at Robert Peston’s brexit question, that was a clue a deal was all but done
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BFYP
Mitterrand immediately banned arms sales to Argentina when the war started. Our Defence Secretary said France was our most important ally in the Falklands War.
Regarding the current issue, the UK Govt announced that the new mutation which is believed to be up to 100% more transmissible was "out of control". Those were the precise words from Hancock. Over 40 countries have banned travel from the UK. What exactly was Macron supposed to do?
Flip it the other way. If the most dangerous mutation of the virus anywhere in the world was centred in Pas de Calais and Macron had gone on TV and said it was out of control, don't you think we'd be justified in closing the Dover crossing while we sorted out a testing regime? It would be criminally incompetent not to.
This "taking back control" thing works both ways.
Re closing our borders
Much as we didn't do and still haven't done since March you mean Bill. Without trawling back isn't that one of the things you have lambasted this shower for not doing?
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We have 5 year olds in the HoC, Star Chamber FFS!
https://twitter.com/davidjonesmp/status/1341830397479546881?s=21
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BFYP.
Absolutely it is our interests to make it work. But be clear. There is no possible future world in which "making it work" means we are not a large amount poorer than we would have been if we hadn't left the SM. It's just a case of minimising the negative hit as much as we can.
Of course you assume everyone is equal, there will be many winners and losers. A new era is something we should be excited about isn't it rather than focussing on the negatives?
Also once the EU deal is done a better devolution process from westminster should imo of course.
But doesn't that depend on how beneficial this new age will be BFYP - as opposed to it just happening?
The Industrial Revolution was a wonderful time for the mill/factory/mine & property owners - but not so great for those who worked in them or lived in their slums. It took over a hundred and fifty years and two world wars for ordinary people to have decent and safe working conditions and decent health care - they can go a lot quicker.
Brexit was a project devised and implemented by people who want to turn the UK into a de-regulated tax haven with lower workplace and environmental standards.
If this doesn't happen it will be a good thing. If it does, well...
I think I'd say I agree pretty much fully with what you say. I do not think any party would seriously puss a mass deregulation of standards. Granted we may see greater flex in some rules which should be beneficial.
Of course much of what happens now going forward should be down to us as a country and a trade deal should not hide the huge changes we do have to make going forwards.
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We have 5 year olds in the HoC, Star Chamber FFS!
https://twitter.com/davidjonesmp/status/1341830397479546881?s=21
Have you never heard of the Star Chamber that Henry VII instituted that this is named after?
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So, we have deal!
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Hallelujah. Some good news at last.
Boris always had this sorted really didn’t he? :facepalm:
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Starmer says Labour will support it, but only because the only other (ie No Deal) alternative is worse than this.
So any possible ERG rebellion trying to force No Deal is dead in the water.
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I kept reading that any deal is better than no deal.
Why would Starmer think anything else.
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Poll on talk Radio, is Boris Johnson the greatest Prime Minister since Churchill?
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Poll on talk Radio, is Boris Johnson the greatest Prime Minister since Churchill?
Who gives a shit?
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Well, here is what we have, versus what we had;
https://twitter.com/davidschneider/status/1342138087288283136/photo/1
More to come, as the detail arrives.
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Mmmmm, well is that what the Brexiteers voted for?
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Poll on talk Radio, is Boris Johnson the greatest Prime Minister since Churchill?
Churchill was a great war leader of a coalition and was binned by the electorate at the first opportunity in 1945 when his war leader status ended .
Clearly the electorate who are judge and jury thought otherwise on his Tory PM credentials .
Perhaps Talk Radio likes to rewrite history .
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Mmmmm, well is that what the Brexiteers voted for?
Apparently they knew exactly what they voted for so stop quibbling! :silly:
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Poll on talk Radio, is Boris Johnson the greatest Prime Minister since Churchill?
Would Churchill have said he had negotiated a deal with 'no non-tarrif barriers' when his own government website lists those that are coming in on 1st January?
I always maintain that Churchill's greatest achievement was to unite the country behind him on taking over. Johnson has done the opposite and divided it for a generation - possibly literally if the Scots get their way and there is an Irish border poll.
But all that is for another day. He did the right thing and agreed a deal. The country will be better for it.
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Mmmmm, well is that what the Brexiteers voted for?
Apparently they knew exactly what they voted for so stop quibbling! :silly:
Apparently being the key word there of course.
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Poll on talk Radio, is Boris Johnson the greatest Prime Minister since Churchill?
Would Churchill have said he had negotiated a deal with 'no non-tarrif barriers' when his own government website lists those that are coming in on 1st January?
I always maintain that Churchill's greatest achievement was to unite the country behind him on taking over. Johnson has done the opposite and divided it for a generation - possibly literally if the Scots get their way and there is an Irish border poll.
But all that is for another day. He did the right thing and agreed a deal. The country will be better for it.
The country was divided when Johnson took over.
It still is.
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Poll on talk Radio, is Boris Johnson the greatest Prime Minister since Churchill?
Churchill was a great war leader of a coalition and was binned by the electorate at the first opportunity in 1945 when his war leader status ended .
Clearly the electorate who are judge and jury thought otherwise on his Tory PM credentials .
Perhaps Talk Radio likes to rewrite history .
Tyke. ‘Greatest leader’ has to be put into context, doesn’t it?
He was rejected after the war because he was, quite probably, a terrible peace time PM. I remember watching a documentary about him where he addressed the nation and talked about ‘those of you in your cottages’. As if that’s what he thought life was like for the vast majority of the country - idyllic. Brilliant War PM though which is why he’s seen as the greatest.
Still, he came back again a few years later during peacetime.
The Talk Radio poll is incomparably ridiculous.
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Glyn its Christmas no need to be glum mate, it should be the first night's good sleep you have had for nearly five years.
Get around the house with the Ho Ho Ho give the Mrs a treat she has had to bear you being a sour puss since 2016.
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Who's glum? I find you very entertaining in your inimitable buffoonish way.
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Taking back control, ink not dry and here's the first of many things the UK will have to comply with to trade with the EU.
''There will be mutual recognition of trusted trader programmes. This means UK producers will have to comply with both UK and EU standards''
''https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/24/from-tariffs-to-visas-heres-whats-in-the-brexit-deal''
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It's done Syd, people like yourself were always going to moan about any agreement, now it is up to us to nibble away at the rules draw away from them as much as possible and flourish as our own country.
I now am particular what I purchase, all the presents I have bought are British made, and sourced locally even down to a new drill bit set and a new fridge freezer.
Every prediction about us falling flat on our face has been proved bunkum the attack on the financial services was their big hope until they realised they would be at the behest of New York and Singapore who would be far less helpful for their borrowing requirements, and boy are they borrowing, and one of their biggest sponsors(us) away riding in the sunset.
Their big problem now is keeping such a diverse religious, economic, and wealth creating dream together with the wealthy northern states subsidising the poor Mediterranean countries and the new Eastern European countries with their religious and ethnic differences to the more cosmopolitan western countries together, it will not work and eventually fall apart.
The Mediterranean countries dependant on tourism already face disaster for a second year and probably next year as well with air fares, insurance, and the cost of still being required to be tested before travel making cheap air travel a thing of the past, and the motor industry struggling with change to Electric and unemployment having an effect on their custom throughout the world doing Germany no good.
Paint the picture how you want buddy, they are not in a good place the worlds biggest ever ponzi scheme is in big trouble.
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I wish you a happy holliday stick to football as every post you make about politics is sneery and trite and vert trotsky, that you could wish disaster on other countries to make Britain look better is no better than johnson's answer.
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Britain & Oz for that matter could be like this selby if everyone paid their fair share of taxes.
Why Finland is a great place to live and work
A Nordic welfare state with a variety of services.
A top-ranking society in terms of freedom and equality.
A balance for work, family and friends.
Equal and low-hierarchy working culture.
High-quality healthcare and social security.
Excellent and affordable schooling and daycare.
Cost of living overview.
Finland ranks at the top for combining work and family:
2nd fairest country for children (Unicef, 2016)
2nd best country to be a mother (Unicef, 2016)
1st for good working hours (European Company Survey). The eight-hour workday leaves plenty of time for family, friends and hobbies.
Helsinki is the best city for work-life balance (Kisi, The 2019 Work-Life Balance Index).
https://www.helsinki.fi/en/university/careers-at-the-university-of-helsinki/why-finland-is-a-great-place-to-live-and-work
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Britain & Oz for that matter could be like this selby if everyone paid their fair share of taxes.
Why Finland is a great place to live and work
A Nordic welfare state with a variety of services.
A top-ranking society in terms of freedom and equality.
A balance for work, family and friends.
Equal and low-hierarchy working culture.
High-quality healthcare and social security.
Excellent and affordable schooling and daycare.
Cost of living overview.
Finland ranks at the top for combining work and family:
2nd fairest country for children (Unicef, 2016)
2nd best country to be a mother (Unicef, 2016)
1st for good working hours (European Company Survey). The eight-hour workday leaves plenty of time for family, friends and hobbies.
Helsinki is the best city for work-life balance (Kisi, The 2019 Work-Life Balance Index).
https://www.helsinki.fi/en/university/careers-at-the-university-of-helsinki/why-finland-is-a-great-place-to-live-and-work
Interestingly the Finish government own one third of Finland's wealth and 90% of workers are members of a trade union .
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And they're in the EU.
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And they're in the EU.
But have they got their own sovereignty and blue passports? ;)
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Everyone wants to pile into Finland then, although they have been tipped as one of the countries that could follow our lead out of the Ponzi scheme.
I don't think I was sneering at all Syd, more like you realise the same things but don't accept them.
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Selby, I’m not even sure why our Brexit means so much to someone in Australia.
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Two days ago, the Govt agreed the trade deal with the EU.
It comes into effect in 5 days.
They still haven't published it to let us see what we are signing up to...
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Two days ago, the Govt agreed the trade deal with the EU.
It comes into effect in 5 days.
They still haven't published it to let us see what we are signing up to...
Thats because the deal will be worse than the deal May had
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Ok I'm a bit off the pace. It was published this morning. Plenty of time for folk to get ready for the biggest change to a trading arrangement in human history.
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Two days ago, the Govt agreed the trade deal with the EU.
It comes into effect in 5 days.
They still haven't published it to let us see what we are signing up to...
Apart from the one they published on Gov.UK on Christmas Eve
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/agreements-reached-between-the-united-kingdom-of-great-britain-and-northern-ireland-and-the-european-union
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Tyke. No. They didn't. That was published this morning, as I said above.
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First flash point. There is a timebomb in the deal under the UK car industry.
In five years time, there is going to be a very harsh limit on the amount of overseas-sourced components in cars made in the UK. Anything above that limit will lead to big tariffs on cars built in the UK and sold to EU countries.
Since Nissan, Toyota and Honda all use lots of Japanese-sourced parts in their UK-built cars, as things currently stand they'd be in line for a situation where their UK plants become uneconomical in 2026.
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On the gov.uk site it says it was published on 24th December.
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Hound.
There is a link on that site that says "See all updates"
Try it.
Then ask yourself why you always assume I'm trying to mislead people.
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Hound.
There is a link on that site that says "See all updates"
Try it.
Then ask yourself why you always assume I'm trying to mislead people.
And we know the next response don’t we?
“I never said you were trying to mislead people”
Classic post a leading question and when challenged it’s “ not me guv, honest”
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Hound.
There is a link on that site that says "See all updates"
Try it.
Then ask yourself why you always assume I'm trying to mislead people.
Why do you always assume that people are thinking of you when they make a post?
I just said that it says the document was published on 24th December.
It never crossed my mind that you might be trying to deceive anyone.
Oh, Filo, I didn’t ask a question did I.
I made a statement.
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Hound.
Experience. Years of experience of you not accepting factual stuff that I post on here and rubbing your hands gleefully on the occasions that it turns out I'm mistaken.
I assume you accept that you're wrong on this occasion?
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Billy, 2026 is a long way off for the EU.
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Hound.
Experience. Years of experience of you not accepting factual stuff that I post on here and rubbing your hands gleefully on the occasions that it turns out I'm mistaken.
I assume you accept that you're wrong on this occasion?
Actually, no, I don’t.
I did have another look and it clearly says that the information was published on 24th December.
It also says that some further information was added today.
Incidentally, I did used to accept that the stuff you wrote on here was right but then other posters began to question your all seeing eye and correcting you on quite a few things.
After that I didn’t take a lot of notice of much of the stuff that you write about.
Anyway, enjoy reading all those pages and no doubt you will be picking out stuff to whine about but will conveniently forgetting to mention the good stuff.
Hope you enjoyed your day off yesterday by the way.
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Billy, 2026 is a long way off for the EU.
But a very short time for anyone making large investment plans in the car industry - which I think is the point.
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Hound.
If you clicked that link and then the obvious next one "Show all updates" and you still insist that the text of the deal was published there on 24 Dec then I'm not sure what the point is in discussing anything with you.
It says in plain English, black and white text in the updates
26 December 2020
Following documents added: Trade and Cooperation Agreement
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As far as getting stuff wrong, of course I do. Everyone does. My policy is that, if I state something as a fact and I get it wrong, I do my best to correct it. Like in this very thread.
It is sort of fundamental to civilised discourse.
I fully accept that you may decide that you'll ignore everything anyone ever says because sometimes they get stuff wrong. Although if that's your approach, I'm wondering why you joined in this thread?
-
Finally:
"no doubt you will be picking out stuff to whine about but will conveniently forgetting to mention the good stuff."
Good line that, from someone who insists he's never accused me of arguing in bad faith.
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Wilt's, do you think the EU will have the same member countries in 2026?
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Finally:
"no doubt you will be picking out stuff to whine about but will conveniently forgetting to mention the good stuff."
Good line that, from someone who insists he's never accused me of arguing in bad faith.
As I said previously, but you evidently didn’t read, I have never used the phrase “arguing in bad faith”.
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Selby.
I'll pay £100 to whichever charity you decide if any country has left or joined the EU by 2026.
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Hound.
I know exactly what you said. The words are irrelevant. The implication is there in pretty much every interaction we have.
I didn't say that you had every used those precise words. I said that you assume I'm acting in bad faith. So why you chose to respond in the way you did is anyone's guess. If you actually DON'T think I'm acting in bad faith, you could have said "I don't think you're acting in bad faith." In fact you could do it now.
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As far as getting stuff wrong, of course I do. Everyone does. My policy is that, if I state something as a fact and I get it wrong, I do my best to correct it. Like in this very thread.
It is sort of fundamental to civilised discourse.
I fully accept that you may decide that you'll ignore everything anyone ever says because sometimes they get stuff wrong. Although if that's your approach, I'm wondering why you joined in this thread?
Once again, you change the words to suit your argument.
I said “I don’t take a lot of notice of much of the stuff that you write”.
I didn’t mention anyone else.
That is probably because you are always so sure that you are in the right about virtually everything on this forum.
Once I discovered that you aren’t as good as you seem to believe you are I lost confidence in you.
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Hound.
I know exactly what you said. The words are irrelevant. The implication is there in pretty much every interaction we have.
I didn't say that you had every used those precise words. I said that you assume I'm acting in bad faith. So why you chose to respond in the way you did is anyone's guess. If you actually DON'T think I'm acting in bad faith, you could have said "I don't think you're acting in bad faith." In fact you could do it now.
It isn’t a phrase I use, or have used.
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Hound.
If you clicked that link and then the obvious next one "Show all updates" and you still insist that the text of the deal was published there on 24 Dec then I'm not sure what the point is in discussing anything with you.
It says in plain English, black and white text in the updates
26 December 2020
Following documents added: Trade and Cooperation Agreement
I did click on the link that you suggested.
It says last updated on 26th December.
The black and white text also says that the report was first published on 24th December and that an HTML version was added on 24th December.
If it wasn’t, to be honest, I wouldnt have a clue because I don’t usually spend my time, especially on Christmas Eve, trawling the internet looking for something from the government to complain about.
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Pour petrol on and deny lighting the match
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Major success on fishing in the trade deal.
The amount of one specific fish that British trawlers will be able the catch is going up from 22% to 25%.
So it looks like those who were saying that claims that Brexit would benefit us amounted to a reight big load of pollacks were right all along.
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Pour petrol on and deny lighting the match
Hardly Filo.
I made a comment but look at post number 1442 to see who lit the match.
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Pour petrol on and deny lighting the match
Hardly Filo.
I made a comment but look at post number 1442 to see who lit the match.
How do you know if that was about you?
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Pour petrol on and deny lighting the match
Hardly Filo.
I made a comment but look at post number 1442 to see who lit the match.
How do you know if that was about you?
Because it was addressed to me.
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It wasn’t addressed to anyone, I never quoted or mentioned you in the post, I wonder why you think it was addressed to you
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Your post number 1459 followed my post 1458 so I thought you were referring to my post.
This is the trouble when the discussion between two posters (me and BST) gets a third party involved.
It happens all the time on here and then misunderstandings happen.
I did actually think that a man of your intellect could have worked that I thought you had meant me with your comment about lighting the match.
You are hardly likely to be aiming it at BST were you.
Why would you have posted a random comment like that otherwise.
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On the gov.uk site it says it was published on 24th December.
Hound.
There is a link on that site that says "See all updates"
Try it.
Then ask yourself why you always assume I'm trying to mislead people.
Pour petrol on and deny lighting the match
Hardly Filo.
I made a comment but look at post number 1442 to see who lit the match.
How do you know if that was about you?
Pour petrol on and deny lighting the match
Hardly Filo.
I made a comment but look at post number 1442 to see who lit the match.
How do you know if that was about you?
Because it was addressed to me.
Filo, does this series of quotes help you to understand why I thought your lighting the match comment was intended for me.
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I just wondered who would feel the need to defend themselves at a random comment
You see this is exactly what we read with your posts, over and over again, wether I agree or not with BST is irrelevant, over and over again you throw in a random question/ statement, usually aimed at BST, disagree with him, thats fine, but when challenged about your disagreement you got all defensive, “ not me guv” it’s tedious and boring and I think most of us can see what your doing, I sometimes wonder why A bloke of BST’s intelligence continues to engage with people who only want to wind him or any one else up for that matter, disagree by all means, but add something to the debate
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We?
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I just wondered who would feel the need to defend themselves at a random comment
You see this is exactly what we read with your posts, over and over again, wether I agree or not with BST is irrelevant, over and over again you throw in a random question/ statement, usually aimed at BST, disagree with him, thats fine, but when challenged about your disagreement you got all defensive, “ not me guv” it’s tedious and boring and I think most of us can see what your doing, I sometimes wonder why A bloke of BST’s intelligence continues to engage with people who only want to wind him or any one else up for that matter, disagree by all means, but add something to the debate
But you are totally missing the point Filo.
I didn’t choose to defend myself over a random comment, I have explained quite clearly why I thought that you had aimed your lighting the match comment at me.
FFS I get enough stick from Labour supporters on here who attack my posts willy nilly.
I think also that you will find that BST picks out lots of my posts to have a go at.
I see his name as the poster then see that he has written “hound” and then have to read his ramblings about Churchill and Napoleon or be expected to read through half a dozen paragraphs of a lecture from him.
That is why I don’t bother reading through some of the stuff he posts.
I suppose that is a cue for certain other posters to start firing at me now but I am used to it I guess.
All this tonight began after Tyke said that the withdrawal document had been posted on the gov.uk website on Christmas Eve.
BST then told Tyke he was wrong.
I had a look on the gov.uk website to see for myself what the situation was and posted that I had read very clearly that the site says that the report was published on 24th December.
BST then said that I was suggesting that he was trying to mislead people.
How he came to that conclusion is beyond me.
That was when BST, as usual, began to get on my case.
You jumped in with your post at 2.27.51 in support of BST and then with three people involved the situation got complicated.
Out of interest, who was that post of yours aimed at then.(the lighting of the match one)
Anyway, I agree, it is getting boring.
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Selby, I’m not even sure why our Brexit means so much to someone in Australia.
Your brexit, exactly hound like your conservative party too I guess
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Hound.
For the fourth time, that gov.uk website categorically does NOT say the report was published on 24 Dec.
It was the WEBSITE that was published on 24 Dec. The "Trade and Cooperation Agreement (including Annexes and Protocols)" is the report itself. That was added this morning. It says it. In black and white
"26 December 2020
Following documents added: Trade and Cooperation Agreement (including Annexes and Protocols)"
"Added" as in "was not there previously"
If you wanted to check you could have looked here.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/commission-publishes-full-text-of-uk-eu-brexit-trade-agreement/amp/
Or here.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.dw.com/en/brexit-eu-and-uk-publish-trade-agreement/a-56062356
Or here
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-brexit-deal-published-full-23222385.amp
Or here
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1376854/brexit-deal-full-text-summary-trade-deal-EU-UK-what-is-in-the-brexit-deal-evg/amp
This is actually quite depressing. You are taking an incorrect position and implacably refusing to budge on it, when the facts are set out on a plate for you. On a matter of pretty much zero importance. You preferred to assume I was wrong for whatever reason.
If you cannot get facts as straightforward and simple as that right, or back down when it is demonstrated that you are wrong, on such a trivial issue, or be bothered to check the accuracy of what you are insisting, then the concept of civilised, fact-based discussion is out the window.
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Wilt's, do you think the EU will have the same member countries in 2026?
Albania and North Macedonia could well have joined by then.
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Hound.
For the fourth time, that gov.uk website categorically does NOT say the report was published on 24 Dec.
It was the WEBSITE that was published on 24 Dec. The "Trade and Cooperation Agreement (including Annexes and Protocols)" is the report itself. That was added this morning. It says it. In black and white
"26 December 2020
Following documents added: Trade and Cooperation Agreement (including Annexes and Protocols)"
"Added" as in "was not there previously"
If you wanted to check you could have looked here.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.politico.eu/article/commission-publishes-full-text-of-uk-eu-brexit-trade-agreement/amp/
Or here.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.dw.com/en/brexit-eu-and-uk-publish-trade-agreement/a-56062356
Or here
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-brexit-deal-published-full-23222385.amp
Or here
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1376854/brexit-deal-full-text-summary-trade-deal-EU-UK-what-is-in-the-brexit-deal-evg/amp
This is actually quite depressing. You are taking an incorrect position and implacably refusing to budge on it, when the facts are set out on a plate for you. On a matter of pretty much zero importance. You preferred to assume I was wrong for whatever reason.
If you cannot get facts as straightforward and simple as that right, or back down when it is demonstrated that you are wrong, on such a trivial issue, or be bothered to check the accuracy of what you are insisting, then the concept of civilised, fact-based discussion is out the window.
BST. It might be the fourth time that you have written about this but it is the FIRST TIME that you have said that it is the website that was published in 24th December, not the agreement.
If that is in fact the case then fair enough.
I have to say that there is no way I could have known that and had you explained as much at the beginning then all this bunkum could have been avoided.
You are still saying that I wanted to prove you wrong but that statement in itself is wrong.
All I did was write a comment based on what I saw.
It wasn’t at all clear to me that it didn’t mean that the document was published on 24th December.
Evidently it can’t have been clear to Tyke either as he made the same assumption as myself.
You also say that this was a trivial issue and I agree with that.
As for those other links that you posted I would t have found them because I wouldn’t have been bothered enough to go and look for them as it was such a trivial matter.
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Hound
I pointed out 10 hours ago the text that said that the documents had been added on 26 Dec.
I thought that was about as bleeding obvious as it got. What you are now saying is that it is my fault that I didn't understand what you didn't understand.
See,when I point stuff out in here in words of one syllable, I'm accused of being condescending. When I don't point things out in words of one syllable and folk don't follow, I'm accused of drawing arguments out or as one poster has convinced himself, laying traps and delighting in humiliating people.
Here's a thought. Maybe I'm being honest but sometimes failing to read people's minds?
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Attempting to move the debate away from the trivialities over what was published and when it was I'd give the deal a 6 out of 10 personally .
It just about gives what we voted for a tick whilst acknowledging compromise at the same time .
It's thin I'll say that but let's see how it works out .
I'm fairly comfortable in saying that within the next decade this deal won't stand the test of time because the EU will be not be the around in its present form for too much longer.
It will exist but won't be a significant player in the near future .
Every empire implodes from within , history tells us this .
The Labour support whether that be PLP or remainers in the electorate would be well advised to get with the programme and wise the feck up .
The electorate have rejected you , the deal is done , live with it .
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A lot of bother for 6/10 Tyke?
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What get's me Tyke is that the remainers are complaining about the rules and agreements that keep us more aligned to the EU rules we had to adhere to while members, do they want a hard Brexit? are they Brexiteers and don't realise it?
For four years they have argued to stay in and accept every rule and law the EU saw fit to pass , now they are saying the agreement contains restrictions imposed on us by the same people that makes the agreement a cop out and would vote against it, and even start a movement to get back in.
Bloody Brilliant, talk about beating yourselves up.
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If it's true you don't drink selby I'd start and then you'd at least have an excuse.
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Selby I do agree somewhat with you on that. We have chosen to align on a lot of areas and I don't think that's a big issue. It's a choice we have made. We could of course choose to move from that in time as the world changes. As deals go it doesn't seem terrible or brilliant and that has to be a good thing. Time will of course tell but it's nothing like the apocalypse many said it would be is it? A lot of the paperwork will be fairly easy to complete also. In some areas paperwork was still required within the EU so it's not necessarily the end of the world. A lot of businesses will automate it through existing process anyway. We will all adapt much more easily than some have made out.
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Selby I do agree somewhat with you on that. We have chosen to align on a lot of areas and I don't think that's a big issue. It's a choice we have made. We could of course choose to move from that in time as the world changes. As deals go it doesn't seem terrible or brilliant and that has to be a good thing. Time will of course tell but it's nothing like the apocalypse many said it would be is it? A lot of the paperwork will be fairly easy to complete also. In some areas paperwork was still required within the EU so it's not necessarily the end of the world. A lot of businesses will automate it through existing process anyway. We will all adapt much more easily than some have made out.
Yes we will adapt but I still cannot see what we have gained from Brexit. I can certainly see what we have lost but cannot see the gains.
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I thought it might be a bit deep for some of you Syd, Sorry go back to your building blocks you got for Christmas.
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I thought it might be a bit deep for some of you Syd, Sorry go back to your building blocks you got for Christmas.
Are you still maintaining that it's exporters who pay import duties or didn't you get any building blocks for Christmas yourself?
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Tyke
1) If the timing doesn't matter to you, you could have kept out if the discussion instead of sticking your boot in with a wrong assertion.
2) You just don't get this "electorate" argument, do you?
A majority of people voted in the last election for parties who were against Brexit.
Labour supporters in poll after poll are 3:1 against Brexit.
In national polls, the number of people who think Brexit was an error has been rising for 2 years. Currently, there are about 10% more people think it was a bad decision than think it was a good one.
You focus on what you believe and know and think it is what everyone on the Left thinks. It isn't. You are a tiny minority.
Brexit is happening and we've got to make the best of the shambles that you have presented us with. But if the Labour party ever thinks of embracing it as a positive, they are finished. Because the people who think like you on the Left are literally dying out. The future for the Left is internationalist, not nationalist.
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I thought it might be a bit deep for some of you Syd, Sorry go back to your building blocks you got for Christmas.
Are you still maintaining that it's exporters who pay import duties or didn't you get any building blocks for Christmas yourself?
Actually Glyn it is in some cases. American steel tarrifs one obvious example.
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I thought it might be a bit deep for some of you Syd, Sorry go back to your building blocks you got for Christmas.
Are you still maintaining that it's exporters who pay import duties or didn't you get any building blocks for Christmas yourself?
Actually Glyn it is in some cases. American steel tarrifs one obvious example.
Do you mean these?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-tariffs-explainer-idUSKCN1SR1UI
https://www.investors.com/news/economy/what-is-a-tariff/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/05/07/trumps-steel-tariffs-cost-us-consumers-every-job-created-experts-say/
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/02/heres-why-us-importers-and-consumers-pay-trumps-tariffs-not-china.html
I'd got you down as someone who wouldn't fall for Trump's bullshit.
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Just a hook Glyn, no bait required.
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And you bit it. No need to tell everyone you did.
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THE GREATEST PONZI SCHEME EVER INVENTED
Source
The Centre for European politics Brussels
20 years of Euro winners and losers February 2919
WINNERS
Deutschland per person 23,116 euro per person total1,893 billion Euro
Neiderlands 21,003 346 billion euro
Griechenland 190 2 billion euro
Losers
Spanien 5,031per person Total loss 224 billion Euros
Belgien 6,370 69 billion Euros
Portugal 40,604 424 billion euros
Frankbeich 55,996 3,591 billion Euros
Italien 73,605 4,325 billion Euros
Great if you are German or Dutch not so great to be Italian.
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Someone going to explain to Selby what a Ponzi Scheme is? He seems to be having a bit of difficulty with the concept.
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He has difficulty with a great number of concepts. He hears a phrase that he thinks makes him sound like he knows what he's talking about so he keeps using it. But no doubt when you point out what b*llocks he's spouting he'll come out with the tired and unoriginal 'I was only saying it to wind you up' schtick yet again. A fortnight after he's been exposed.
PS Anybody here think that this wasn't selby telling us what he really thinks?
Glynn, tariffs are levied by the country receiving the goods and paid by the exporter, seeing as we import more goods than we export as you constantly point out to anyone who will listen to the EU there is a large difference between what we will have to pay to the EU and what we will receive from them, which is a much larger amount more than equal to all the farm subsidies we receive from the EU according to one report I read.
Add on the fee they will have to pay for access to fish in our waters.
I too think there will be an agreement.
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I will just leave it to you experts, after all you have proved good losers for so long.
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If only we could take you seriously but you've admitted that you talk b*llocks on purpose. As well as unwittingly!
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I thought it might be a bit deep for some of you Syd, Sorry go back to your building blocks you got for Christmas.
Are you still maintaining that it's exporters who pay import duties or didn't you get any building blocks for Christmas yourself?
Actually Glyn it is in some cases. American steel tarrifs one obvious example.
Do you mean these?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trade-china-tariffs-explainer-idUSKCN1SR1UI
https://www.investors.com/news/economy/what-is-a-tariff/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/05/07/trumps-steel-tariffs-cost-us-consumers-every-job-created-experts-say/
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/02/heres-why-us-importers-and-consumers-pay-trumps-tariffs-not-china.html
I'd got you down as someone who wouldn't fall for Trump's bullshit.
No Glyn, just someone who previously worked in the steel industry. Of course your knowledge on the realities of that tarrif outweighs mine.
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No, just my knowledge of Customs Law and Declarations. All Import Declarations have to be in the name of the importer, who has to be a valid legal entity in the country of destination. All taxes and duties have to be paid by said importer. Not by anybody outside the Customs territory of destination.
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''Throughout history Britain’s ruling class has created crisis after crisis – just like now''
“The privately educated Englishman – and Englishwoman, if you will allow me – is the greatest dissembler on Earth,” he says. “Was, is now and ever shall be for as long as our disgraceful school system remains intact. Nobody will charm you so glibly, disguise his feelings from you better, cover his tracks more skilfully or find it harder to confess to you that he’s been a damned fool.”
Le Carre' from 'the secret pilgrim'
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/27/history-britain-ruling-class-created-crisis-boris-johnson-brexit-covid
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No, just my knowledge of Customs Law and Declarations. All Import Declarations have to be in the name of the importer, who has to be a valid legal entity in the country of destination. All taxes and duties have to be paid by said importer. Not by anybody outside the Customs territory of destination.
Glyn you are getting stuck on technicalities ie who remits a final payment but that doesn't mean they actually pay it. It's like vat the person who paid the vat bill isn't actually the one who pays it in most cases.
When tarrifs came in most companies went "we are not paying that" so it leaves a choice of what to do.
Of course there are also some arrangements that differ so that the seller does directly pay the bill. They don't tend to care as long as it's paid. So it can be mixed dependent on rules and agreements.
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Isn't it you getting stuck on the technicalities BFYP?
All taxes and duties have to be paid by the importer - is pretty clear. That's WTO rules I believe.
How the importer goes about getting that money back from the exporter - or not - is down to the particular agreement as you have pointed out, but the actual legal obligation seems pretty clear.
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Isn't it you getting stuck on the technicalities BFYP?
All taxes and duties have to be paid by the importer - is pretty clear. That's WTO rules I believe.
How the importer goes about getting that money back from the exporter - or not - is down to the particular agreement as you have pointed out, but the actual legal obligation seems pretty clear.
Perhaps so, but isn't the more relevant point actually who is impacted by it?
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No, just my knowledge of Customs Law and Declarations. All Import Declarations have to be in the name of the importer, who has to be a valid legal entity in the country of destination. All taxes and duties have to be paid by said importer. Not by anybody outside the Customs territory of destination.
Glyn you are getting stuck on technicalities ie who remits a final payment but that doesn't mean they actually pay it. It's like vat the person who paid the vat bill isn't actually the one who pays it in most cases.
When tarrifs came in most companies went "we are not paying that" so it leaves a choice of what to do.
Of course there are also some arrangements that differ so that the seller does directly pay the bill. They don't tend to care as long as it's paid. So it can be mixed dependent on rules and agreements.
Those are arrangements between companies, nothing to do with the Tariff. If importers/exporters want to negotiate prices between themselves that's up to them - it's why the Tariff was put there in the first place, to try and price the exporter out of the market. But any duty is always levied on the importer, never the exporter.
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Isn't it you getting stuck on the technicalities BFYP?
All taxes and duties have to be paid by the importer - is pretty clear. That's WTO rules I believe.
How the importer goes about getting that money back from the exporter - or not - is down to the particular agreement as you have pointed out, but the actual legal obligation seems pretty clear.
Perhaps so, but isn't the more relevant point actually who is impacted by it?
Everybody's impacted by it. But only the importer pays it.
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Isn't it you getting stuck on the technicalities BFYP?
All taxes and duties have to be paid by the importer - is pretty clear. That's WTO rules I believe.
How the importer goes about getting that money back from the exporter - or not - is down to the particular agreement as you have pointed out, but the actual legal obligation seems pretty clear.
Perhaps so, but isn't the more relevant point actually who is impacted by it?
Everybody's impacted by it. But only the importer pays it.
Ultimately though we all pay for it
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I bet you lot are glad your not Italian no matter what you call the scheme. You have got to give the EU credit they even keep tabs on who Peter is to pay Paul.
I make no wonder old Gerry loves it, by all means put your own name to it, I am sure you will have one probably The Sunshine and Heavenly programme If your German or Dutch would be apt don't you think? of course the Ities could have a much shorter and to the point name for it.
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I bet you lot are glad your not Italian no matter what you call the scheme. You have got to give the EU credit they even keep tabs on who Peter is to pay Paul.
I make no wonder old Gerry loves it, by all means put your own name to it, I am sure you will have one probably The Sunshine and Heavenly programme If your German or Dutch would be apt don't you think? of course the Ities could have a much shorter and to the point name for it.
Grow up!
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I bet you lot are glad your not Italian no matter what you call the scheme. You have got to give the EU credit they even keep tabs on who Peter is to pay Paul.
I make no wonder old Gerry loves it, by all means put your own name to it, I am sure you will have one probably The Sunshine and Heavenly programme If your German or Dutch would be apt don't you think? of course the Ities could have a much shorter and to the point name for it.
Grow up!
Did you actually manage to decipher that bag o' shite? Well done!
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You don't like what you see do you. Poor losers I thought you would be used to it by now.
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I can't dislike what I can't decipher. And you're right, I am used to it. From you anyway.
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An interesting piece here by another so called "bad loser" and an incredible 10 minutes of Johnson saying one thing and later doing another
He would be great at Cricket toss for England. Calling Heads and after he lost just saying no I said TAILS
Search @FEMI_SORRY
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I can't dislike what I can't decipher. And you're right, I am used to it. From you anyway.
Yep, and unfortunately people like selby will believe the latest lies....
(https://i.imgur.com/b61PaXH.jpg)
We are not, nor will we be, £900Bn better off signing deals we already had through the EU - but people like selby will believe that they represent the sunny uplands we were promised lied to about!
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An interesting piece here by another so called "bad loser" and an incredible 10 minutes of Johnson saying one thing and later doing another
He would be great at Cricket toss for England. Calling Heads and after he lost just saying no I said TAILS
Search @FEMI_SORRY
Great piece Wolf, here's the link
https://twitter.com/femi_sorry?lang=en
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I can't dislike what I can't decipher. And you're right, I am used to it. From you anyway.
Yep, and unfortunately people like selby will believe the latest lies....
(https://i.imgur.com/b61PaXH.jpg)
We are not, nor will we be, £900Bn better off signing deals we already had through the EU - but people like selby will believe that they represent the sunny uplands we were promised lied to about!
The deals are only available for Express readers
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I have to say, in the whole disgusting litany of lies and deception that the Express has engaged in for years over Brexit, that front page is the most disgusting.
They are including the trade deal with the f**king EU in that figure! A trade deal that everyone knows is far worse than the situation we currently have with them.
And the rest is predominantly made up of deals with Japan and Turkey that we already had or would have with them as EU members.
We have not made a single trade deal with a major economy that we wouldn't have had as an EU member. And the Express thinks so little of the intelligence of its readers that it trumpets that bullshit. Knowing that all they want is anything that reinforces their Little Englander mentality.
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The Daily Express. Who a couple of weeks ago were saying that the navy should send out gunboats so that British fisherman could catch 100% of the fish in British territorial waters:
https://twitter.com/JimMFelton/status/1341673241690169344/photo/1
Now celebrating a deal that means British fisherman can catch LESS of the fish we actually eat - but slightly more of the ones we don't:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/29/scotland-faces-cuts-to-cod-and-haddock-fisheries-under-brexit-deal
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Funny int it?
The Express being such a massive supporter of our fishing industry. You'd think they'd be up in arms about this deal.
Like...err...the fishing industry body is for example.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/inews.co.uk/news/brexit/fishermen-worse-off-post-brexit-trade-deal-andrew-locker-national-federation-fishermans-organisation-michael-gove-809681/amp
Mind. Fishing industry body! Pah! I bet they are just a bunch of Remoaners.
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Well you can all moan as long as you want on Friday.
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Funny int it?
The Express being such a massive supporter of our fishing industry. You'd think they'd be up in arms about this deal.
Like...err...the fishing industry body is for example.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/inews.co.uk/news/brexit/fishermen-worse-off-post-brexit-trade-deal-andrew-locker-national-federation-fishermans-organisation-michael-gove-809681/amp
Mind. Fishing industry body! Pah! I bet they are just a bunch of Remoaners.
TBF, the fishing industry was on it's arse before the Brexit deal and they didn't (and don't) have the infrastructure to vastly increase their catches, regardless of whether they had unfettered access to UK waters. We're talking about an industry that currently accounts for 0.5% of GDP - although some contest that it even hits that figure... and many suggest it has absolutely no chance of reaching the 3.5% potential that was being talked about....
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I don't doubt any of that MM (except the figure I've seen most widely stated for the fishing industry is 0.1% of GDP).
It just begs the question why such a pifflingly small part of the economy, which has very little capacity for expansion should have assumed such importance in the Brexit picture. And then effectively be chucked aside anyway.
Almost as if the economics never mattered in the first place...
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I don't doubt any of that MM (except the figure I've seen most widely stated for the fishing industry is 0.1% of GDP).
It just begs the question why such a pifflingly small part of the economy, which has very little capacity for expansion should have assumed such importance in the Brexit picture. And then effectively be chucked aside anyway.
Almost as if the economics never mattered in the first place...
I agree..
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Well you can all moan as long as you want on Friday.
You're our markets man Selby.
Tell me when international financiers warn investors to expect the biggest transfer of stocks & bonds for over 20 years, out of the UK and into the EU & US, on 4th January due to Johnson's great new deal - is this a good thing or a bad one?
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/money/other/brexit-big-bang-to-trigger-tectonic-trading-rift-in-europe/ar-BB1cjjgS?ocid=msedgntp
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Behind the 8 ball already, a lot of trade deals required.
The essential numbers of the UK’s Brexit trade deal
$1.6 trillion: The amount of assets, along with about 7,500 employees, transferred out of the UK and to the European Union by financial services firms in anticipation of Brexit, according to EY.
https://qz.com/1950048/the-uk-eu-brexit-trade-deal-by-the-numbers/
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One referendum and two general elections down the road and still some on here can't accept it. Eventually everyone should come together for the future benefit of Britain. I suspect our differences with Germany and Japan after the war will have been put aside quicker than some will get over Brexit.
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AL.
There's plenty of us working bloody hard to make up the damage that this is doing to our economy. My own company is just about to sign a contract for $500k of work with a customer in the USA and I've been on with the paperwork over Xmas.
On your side, you need to be grown up enough to acknowledge the economic damage you have done. If your not going to hold your hand up to that, don't blame other people for pointing it out to you as the data comes in.
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The EU fishing community dependant on fishing in British waters is even smaller as a percentage I believe than the fishing community is in the UK to the UK.
Funny how little most posters on here think of the UK fishing industry and back such a small percentage of the EU industry.
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Who's 'backed' the EU? Pointing out reality is backing neither one side or the other.
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The EU fishing community dependant on fishing in British waters is even smaller as a percentage I believe than the fishing community is in the UK to the UK.
Funny how little most posters on here think of the UK fishing industry and back such a small percentage of the EU industry.
I do find it strange that there are any posters happy with a deal that lets British fishermen catch LESS of the fish that we eat, than previously.
And have given the EU the proviso that if we break that commitment they can turn-off their gas and electricity supplies to us.
But there you go. Seems some do.
https://twitter.com/john_lichfield/status/1344232433185656833
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Especially if they turned backwaters like Wiltshire off first.
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Especially if they turned backwaters like Wiltshire off first.
Wanna buy a turbine?
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Especially if they turned backwaters like Wiltshire off first.
Wanna buy a turbine?
Nah, he'd be better off renting a brain!
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I bet you are glued to the TV wanting b*llocks at the docks tonight and tomorrow lads, Have a nice day.
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Just read that your God old Stabber has stated " the best years for Britain lie ahead".
Looks like the lad is coming around to liking old Boris.
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Not very charitable to the party you once voted for, did they snub you at all selby?
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Not very charitable to the party you once voted for, did they snub you at all selby?
Probably not, Sydney. He just became a 'Fur Coat No Knickers' Capitalist.
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Coco's dad gone French now;
https://www.metro.us/british-pm-johnsons-father/
We must be a laughing stock across the water.
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Don't be silly pies, gold weave under clothing thanks very much, a lot better than not having two half pennies to scratch your arse with.
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Coco's dad gone French now;
https://www.metro.us/british-pm-johnsons-father/
We must be a laughing stock across the water.
From what I read Albie it's more of stunned disappointment in the lies and trickery used to acheive it and most struggle with the concept that the UK would sacrifice it's reputation as an upholder of international law.
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One referendum and two general elections down the road and still some on here can't accept it. Eventually everyone should come together for the future benefit of Britain. I suspect our differences with Germany and Japan after the war will have been put aside quicker than some will get over Brexit.
Who hasn't accepted the result? I don't see anyone saying Leave didn't win. Or are you saying people aren't allowed to criticise us leaving? Should we just blindly celebrate something we believe will make the country worse off?
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Precisely DO.
If someone drives a bus off a cliff, telling them that it's going to hurt when you hit the bottom doesn't mean you don't accept you've gone off the cliff.
Some folk on here will tell us when the bus finally hits the ground that it would have grown a pair of wings if only enough Remain supporters had believed it would.
Anyway. Happy New Year everyone. Tomorrow we start a new life with a Brexit that no-one ever discussed in 2016. And apparently that is a democratic triumph.
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One referendum and two general elections down the road and still some on here can't accept it. Eventually everyone should come together for the future benefit of Britain. I suspect our differences with Germany and Japan after the war will have been put aside quicker than some will get over Brexit.
Who hasn't accepted the result? I don't see anyone saying Leave didn't win. Or are you saying people aren't allowed to criticise us leaving? Should we just blindly celebrate something we believe will make the country worse off?
Some people don't see the irony when they don't accept BLM themselves.
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Glyn, try hard and get back to being a normal person again.
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Swivel on it.
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Last week I listened to a programme that actually had looked back at what was claimed by the remain and Brexit sides of the debate before the referendum.
They found that the remain side told percentage wise more untruths than the Brexit side, although they said it was now difficult for the ordinary person to check up because the remain site had been taken down after they had published their results.
They said nothing about the quality of lies though.
But personally I don't find it half as annoying as when the full details of where the EU was going was brushed over, and the full result of the Maastricht Treaty was with held from the general public and us not having a vote on it at the time, knowing that in the UK there would have been a very good chance of it being rejected then in the UK.
I would rather have people tell porkies that you have a very good chance of being exposed as such, but have a chance to accept or reject them than be marginalised and ignored as we were with that treaty, and I think was part of the reason that a large proportion voters of a certain age voted the way they did, to some it was retribution on the EU and John Major, and him with others like Milliband who had lost face so recently nailing their colours to the remain mast so vocally again cemented a lot of older voters minds to get out. They and the remain side just didn't realise it.
The remain side had all the old snide faces leading it from their past, and the Greens, Liberals, and Starmer going back and forward to Brussels by the back door just nailed their fate.
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Last week I listened to a programme that actually had looked back at what was claimed by the remain and Brexit sides of the debate before the referendum.
They found that the remain side told percentage wise more untruths than the Brexit side, although they said it was now difficult for the ordinary person to check up because the remain site had been taken down after they had published their results.
They said nothing about the quality of lies though.
But personally I don't find it half as annoying as when the full details of where the EU was going was brushed over, and the full result of the Maastricht Treaty was with held from the general public and us not having a vote on it at the time, knowing that in the UK there would have been a very good chance of it being rejected then in the UK.
I would rather have people tell porkies that you have a very good chance of being exposed as such, but have a chance to accept or reject them than be marginalised and ignored as we were with that treaty, and I think was part of the reason that a large proportion voters of a certain age voted the way they did, to some it was retribution on the EU and John Major, and him with others like Milliband who had lost face so recently nailing their colours to the remain mast so vocally again cemented a lot of older voters minds to get out. They and the remain side just didn't realise it.
The remain side had all the old snide faces leading it from their past, and the Greens, Liberals, and Starmer going back and forward to Brussels by the back door just nailed their fate.
Seems you've been reading Johnson's book selby....
https://www.newstatesman.com/books/2014/11/one-man-who-made-history-another-who-seems-just-make-it-boris-churchill
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Never read any of those in my life Kato, but the Fisher investment advert "how far does a million pound go in retirement" might interest me.
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Last week I listened to a programme that actually had looked back at what was claimed by the remain and Brexit sides of the debate before the referendum.
They found that the remain side told percentage wise more untruths than the Brexit side, although they said it was now difficult for the ordinary person to check up because the remain site had been taken down after they had published their results.
They said nothing about the quality of lies though.
But personally I don't find it half as annoying as when the full details of where the EU was going was brushed over, and the full result of the Maastricht Treaty was with held from the general public and us not having a vote on it at the time, knowing that in the UK there would have been a very good chance of it being rejected then in the UK.
I would rather have people tell porkies that you have a very good chance of being exposed as such, but have a chance to accept or reject them than be marginalised and ignored as we were with that treaty, and I think was part of the reason that a large proportion voters of a certain age voted the way they did, to some it was retribution on the EU and John Major, and him with others like Milliband who had lost face so recently nailing their colours to the remain mast so vocally again cemented a lot of older voters minds to get out. They and the remain side just didn't realise it.
The remain side had all the old snide faces leading it from their past, and the Greens, Liberals, and Starmer going back and forward to Brussels by the back door just nailed their fate.
Do you have the name of the program?
Was it the StrongerIn website? Anyone can freely use the wayback machine to look at websites from the past.
https://web.archive.org/web/20160303173147/http://www.strongerin.co.uk/
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Don't bother asking for details, it's always 'something I heard'.
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Don't bother asking for details, it's always 'something I heard'.
Perhaps from the balanced (:laugh:) TalkRadio.
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Why on earth do people complain when they get exactly what they voted for?
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/01/residents-furious-brexit-lorry-park-kent-village
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=3991236637587976&id=922716137773390
https://twitter.com/HackedOffHugh/status/1343890893745565696?s=20
At least the last guy had the balls to admit he'd been conned!
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I don't know what they're worried about. It's just Project Fear, it's never going to happen!
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Well seeing as this thread has been superceded by events isn't it time to call it a day and close it?
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Here's someone else not happy getting what he voted for....
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-fishing-boris-johnson-b1779438.html
But don't worry, we got Blue Passports!
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Well seeing as this thread has been superceded by events isn't it time to call it a day and close it?
Not being that particualry tech savvy (it only being my job like) as I started the thread can I lock it?
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Wilts, someone will just start another one mate.
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Not sure anyone but Mods / Admin can lock a Thread but why not let me put this
Mods / Admin - could someone please lock this Thread as people feel ut has run its course
Other users - Pease avoid posting after this - Thread being locked
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Surely there's nothing wrong with talking about the recent aftermath and affects positive or negative in the Brexit thread?
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DO what is the title of this thread? It's turning into a political argument
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DO what is the title of this thread? It's turning into a political argument
I'm sure that can be changed quite easily.
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Useless Netherlands Postal service, we sent a tracked parcel on the second of December to Alkmaar which arrived in Holland on the 3rd of December and was finally delivered to Trudy our friend yesterday.
I make that well done Royal Mail and useless Dutch postal service.
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Useless Netherlands Postal service, we sent a tracked parcel on the second of December to Alkmaar which arrived in Holland on the 3rd of December and was finally delivered to Trudy our friend yesterday.
I make that well done Royal Mail and useless Dutch postal service.
What has the Dutch postal service got to do with this thread?
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''Brexit: Boris Johnson's claims about its benefits fact-checked''
''Boris Johnson was asked on the BBC's Andrew Marr show how "ordinary voters" in a place such as Leigh in Greater Manchester (which voted Conservative in the 2019 election) would benefit from Brexit''
The prime minister gave several examples, which we will look at in turn.
https://www.bbc.com/news/55522329
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Useless Netherlands Postal service, we sent a tracked parcel on the second of December to Alkmaar which arrived in Holland on the 3rd of December and was finally delivered to Trudy our friend yesterday.
I make that well done Royal Mail and useless Dutch postal service.
What has the Dutch postal service got to do with this thread?
He wanted to stick the clog into someone - the rotter - dam - my no pun resolution gone already