Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: foxbat on May 17, 2020, 03:56:53 pm
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Smart, self-made man buys field 24 years ago, so disabled mum can use it as a donkey sanctuary.
Boris Johnson- Serial Adulterer Doesn't know how many kids he has
Sacked for lying .
Sacked for adultery - "brave hard working PM" (pause for laughter )
Keir Starmer- Buys donkey field for mum- "traitor unfit to lead"
Don't buy the Daily Heil
Donate to the @DonkeySanctuary instead
If only Donkeys were allowed to vote a Government into power. Oh sorry.....they already did!
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Smart, self-made man buys field 24 years ago, so disabled mum can use it as a donkey sanctuary.
Boris Johnson- Serial Adulterer Doesn't know how many kids he has
Sacked for lying .
Sacked for adultery - "brave hard working PM" (pause for laughter )
Keir Starmer- Buys donkey field for mum- "traitor unfit to lead"
Don't buy the Daily Heil
Donate to the @DonkeySanctuary instead
If only Donkeys were allowed to vote a Government into power. Oh sorry.....they already did!
So you're calling working class people in the North East donkeys?
Shameful.
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Smart, self-made man buys field 24 years ago, so disabled mum can use it as a donkey sanctuary.
Boris Johnson- Serial Adulterer Doesn't know how many kids he has
Sacked for lying .
Sacked for adultery - "brave hard working PM" (pause for laughter )
Keir Starmer- Buys donkey field for mum- "traitor unfit to lead"
Don't buy the Daily Heil
Donate to the @DonkeySanctuary instead
If only Donkeys were allowed to vote a Government into power. Oh sorry.....they already did!
So you're calling working class people in the North East donkeys?
Shameful.
No, I suspect he's calling the Brain Dead of Britain donkeys for voting this shower of :turd: into government. Were you one of them perchance?
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How to win friends and influence ppl eh NNK?
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Boris and his mates got in with ease because the other option was comrade Corbyn and he is a total tool, didn’t his brother get into trouble yesterday ?
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There lies the problem, to win an election you have to appeal to the masses, not focus on the ones who will vote for you whatever happens. From a centre right view point I am a lot more open to a party led by starmer than his predecessor
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Smart, self-made man buys field 24 years ago, so disabled mum can use it as a donkey sanctuary.
Boris Johnson- Serial Adulterer Doesn't know how many kids he has
Sacked for lying .
Sacked for adultery - "brave hard working PM" (pause for laughter )
Keir Starmer- Buys donkey field for mum- "traitor unfit to lead"
Don't buy the Daily Heil
Donate to the @DonkeySanctuary instead
If only Donkeys were allowed to vote a Government into power. Oh sorry.....they already did!
So you're calling working class people in the North East donkeys?
Shameful.
No, I suspect he's calling the Brain Dead of Britain donkeys for voting this shower of :turd: into government. Were you one of them perchance?
That f*cking rubbish post just sums you up Kato. I've said on here umpteen times that as an ex-miner I could never vote Tory, but you obviously only read posts from people you agree with.
I've also said umpteen times that I've no political allegiances to any party, which is why I can think clearly and objectively, unlike people like you that are partisan and blinkered.
Also, it seems you're not content with calling good working class people in the North East donkeys, you're saying they're brain dead as well.
Well done, I bet you're proud of yourself.
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Corbyn - and the cabal he appointed - were as culpable as anyone for handing the 2019 election to this administration. On a plate.
A donkey if ever there was one.
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This tweet felt like it hit the point:
“At least Keir Starmer put his donkeys in a field, not in the cabinet.”
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Is it only me who read the last statement in the OP as a bit tongue in cheek.?
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Is it only me who read the last statement in the OP as a bit tongue in cheek.?
I didnt read it that way
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There lies the problem, to win an election you have to appeal to the masses, not focus on the ones who will vote for you whatever happens. From a centre right view point I am a lot more open to a party led by starmer than his predecessor
They both want the UK to be a social democracy and would enact similar policies. Out of interest what do you see the difference in the two?
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There lies the problem, to win an election you have to appeal to the masses, not focus on the ones who will vote for you whatever happens. From a centre right view point I am a lot more open to a party led by starmer than his predecessor
They both want the UK to be a social democracy and would enact similar policies. Out of interest what do you see the difference in the two?
Image and perception, Starmer comes across as a competent politician, Corbyn came across as a overgrown student revolutionary, think Rik from the young ones. Image and perception are key in elections
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Is it only me who read the last statement in the OP as a bit tongue in cheek.?
I didnt read it that way
Nope, I didn’t either.
This forum is becoming more toxic as each week goes by.
There are obviously many Labour supporters who post on here and some of the more left wing and most vocal amongst them want to ridicule anyone who didn’t vote for Labour.
It isnt a particularly pleasant place to visit anymore.
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As I alluded to last week hound, you dont get ppl to turn to your way of thinking by calling them thick
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This tweet felt like it hit the point:
“At least Keir Starmer put his donkeys in a field, not in the cabinet.”
I preferred a slight variation on that.
'Now we know that the leader of the Labour Party think that knackered old donkeys should be looked after. And the leader of the Tory Party thinks they should be running the country'.
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Is it only me who read the last statement in the OP as a bit tongue in cheek.?
I didnt read it that way
Nope, I didn’t either.
This forum is becoming more toxic as each week goes by.
There are obviously many Labour supporters who post on here and some of the more left wing and most vocal amongst them want to ridicule anyone who didn’t vote for Labour.
It isnt a particularly pleasant place to visit anymore.
I think some people see how inept the current government are, how many deaths could have been stopped in an alternate reality and convey that on the forum. Some people have long said how Boris wouldn't be a good PM and austerity will cost lives and they're just frustrated now. Perhaps people do need to take a few extra seconds and show more respect to the other side.
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Is it only me who read the last statement in the OP as a bit tongue in cheek.?
I didnt read it that way
Nope, I didn’t either.
This forum is becoming more toxic as each week goes by.
There are obviously many Labour supporters who post on here and some of the more left wing and most vocal amongst them want to ridicule anyone who didn’t vote for Labour.
It isnt a particularly pleasant place to visit anymore.
I think some people see how inept the current government are, how many deaths could have been stopped in an alternate reality and convey that on the forum. Some people have long said how Boris wouldn't be a good PM and austerity will cost lives and they're just frustrated now. Perhaps people do need to take a few extra seconds and show more respect to the other side.
DO, people are welcome to have that opinion.
Do they really need to try to put down other posters who didn’t vote Labour on virtually every off topic thread.
Over the last few weeks in is becoming worse.
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On the topic of the actual thread. Hopefully papers such as The Mail and The Sun die out. They've unsurprisingly completely flipped a non-story of the current Labour leader years ago buying field for his mother so she could keep rescued donkeys in it.
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Is it only me who read the last statement in the OP as a bit tongue in cheek.?
I didnt read it that way
Nope, I didn’t either.
This forum is becoming more toxic as each week goes by.
There are obviously many Labour supporters who post on here and some of the more left wing and most vocal amongst them want to ridicule anyone who didn’t vote for Labour.
It isnt a particularly pleasant place to visit anymore.
I think some people see how inept the current government are, how many deaths could have been stopped in an alternate reality and convey that on the forum. Some people have long said how Boris wouldn't be a good PM and austerity will cost lives and they're just frustrated now. Perhaps people do need to take a few extra seconds and show more respect to the other side.
DO, people are welcome to have that opinion.
Do they really need to try to put down other posters who didn’t vote Labour on virtually every off topic thread.
Over the last few weeks in is becoming worse.
Like I said. Frustrations due to current government policies against coronavirus have probably built resentment towards those who voted in the current government.
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Is it only me who read the last statement in the OP as a bit tongue in cheek.?
I didnt read it that way
Nope, I didn’t either.
This forum is becoming more toxic as each week goes by.
There are obviously many Labour supporters who post on here and some of the more left wing and most vocal amongst them want to ridicule anyone who didn’t vote for Labour.
It isnt a particularly pleasant place to visit anymore.
I think some people see how inept the current government are, how many deaths could have been stopped in an alternate reality and convey that on the forum. Some people have long said how Boris wouldn't be a good PM and austerity will cost lives and they're just frustrated now. Perhaps people do need to take a few extra seconds and show more respect to the other side.
DO, people are welcome to have that opinion.
Do they really need to try to put down other posters who didn’t vote Labour on virtually every off topic thread.
Over the last few weeks in is becoming worse.
Like I said. Frustrations due to current government policies against coronavirus have probably built resentment towards those who voted in the current government.
But isn’t that always the case.
Whoever is in power will always have the Opposition pulling them down.
Those people who voted the Torys in (with a massive majority by the way) may not think the same way that you do.
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Is it only me who read the last statement in the OP as a bit tongue in cheek.?
I didnt read it that way
Nope, I didn’t either.
This forum is becoming more toxic as each week goes by.
There are obviously many Labour supporters who post on here and some of the more left wing and most vocal amongst them want to ridicule anyone who didn’t vote for Labour.
It isnt a particularly pleasant place to visit anymore.
It seems to me there are three types of folks who vote. Those who genuinely believe in the policies and the parties they vote for; those who vote tactically ie against someone/something they don’t like; and those who’s vote is swayed positively or negatively by headlines (like the one leading to this thread) or by trends on social media whether they are true or rumour or outright lies.
I believe it is the latter set who the disparaging remarks are aimed at - rather than at everyone who voted for your opponent. Those sort of voting choices frustrate me no end and I do believe that some polls are badly effected by that and deflect from the issues at hand.
Doesn’t mean everyone who votes against your party should be tarred with the same brush.
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Typical of the elitist so called educated lefties who see themselves as better than everyone else and insult people on age as well as intelligence and don't realise why they keep losing elections.
The labour party became built in their own image, and like them became elitist and aloof and far from the party I knew, voted for and canvased for in my younger days.
Now it just represents a party of losers, or is that elite losers.
Starmer is not the problem it is his party members and supporters that is the problem.
I thought the op was about the Doncaster Council when I read the heading.
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Typical of the elitist so called educated lefties who see themselves as better than everyone else and insult people on age as well as intelligence and don't realise why they keep losing elections.
The labour party became built in their own image, and like them became elitist and aloof and far from the party I knew, voted for and canvased for in my younger days.
Now it just represents a party of losers, or is that elite losers.
Starmer is not the problem it is his party members and supporters that is the problem.
I thought the op was about the Doncaster Council when I read the heading.
Thats about the sum of your comments, constantly calling people losers but never offering substance
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Ah, the power of the right wing media and people who are incapable of thinking for themselves!
Tell me, those of you who voted Tory, why do you think a proven inveterate liar is a good leader of this country! Just one good, honest, reason - and knocking anyone in the opposition is NOT a good reason, that's pampering to what you read in the Mail etc! What credentials has Johnson got in your eyes?
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Typical of the elitist so called educated lefties who see themselves as better than everyone else and insult people on age as well as intelligence and don't realise why they keep losing elections.
The labour party became built in their own image, and like them became elitist and aloof and far from the party I knew, voted for and canvased for in my younger days.
Now it just represents a party of losers, or is that elite losers.
Starmer is not the problem it is his party members and supporters that is the problem.
I thought the op was about the Doncaster Council when I read the heading.
With the shit you spout, are you for f**king real?
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Ah, the power of the right wing media and people who are incapable of thinking for themselves!
Tell me, those of you who voted Tory, why do you think a proven inveterate liar is a good leader of this country! Just one good, honest, reason - and knocking anyone in the opposition is NOT a good reason, that's pampering to what you read in the Mail etc! What credentials has Johnson got in your eyes?
Prepare to be ignored!
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Ah, the power of the right wing media and people who are incapable of thinking for themselves!
Tell me, those of you who voted Tory, why do you think a proven inveterate liar is a good leader of this country! Just one good, honest, reason - and knocking anyone in the opposition is NOT a good reason, that's pampering to what you read in the Mail etc! What credentials has Johnson got in your eyes?
Prepare to be ignored!
I didn’t vote Tory but I will respond to NNK.
You are doing what I suggested earlier in the thread, by saying that people who voted Tory are not capable of thinking for themselves.
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Typical of the elitist so called educated lefties who see themselves as better than everyone else and insult people on age as well as intelligence and don't realise why they keep losing elections.
The labour party became built in their own image, and like them became elitist and aloof and far from the party I knew, voted for and canvased for in my younger days.
Now it just represents a party of losers, or is that elite losers.
Starmer is not the problem it is his party members and supporters that is the problem.
I thought the op was about the Doncaster Council when I read the heading.
For some who continually spouts the first line of this as much as possible, you don't half like telling people you know something better than them.
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Ah, the power of the right wing media and people who are incapable of thinking for themselves!
Tell me, those of you who voted Tory, why do you think a proven inveterate liar is a good leader of this country! Just one good, honest, reason - and knocking anyone in the opposition is NOT a good reason, that's pampering to what you read in the Mail etc! What credentials has Johnson got in your eyes?
Prepare to be ignored!
I didn’t vote Tory but I will respond to NNK.
You are doing what I suggested earlier in the thread, by saying that people who voted Tory are not capable of thinking for themselves.
I didn't say that hound. But I know quite a few people who do fall into that category. I've mentioned this before, but I have one very good friend who, when we disagree about something, falls back on "my paper says" as the foundation of his argument; his paper being the Mail of course.
Look how often sections of lead articles are 'tweaked', tweeted and re-tweeted, without checking or foundation; and note from which newspapers.
And when you hear the soundbites being repeated over and over again, (project Leave anyone?), it's quite clear where they get them from; and a clear indication of lack of thought. And is why, even today, non thinking leavers are unable to come up with a solid reason based on fact, not on hope, how we will be better off financially when we leave the EU.
Manipulating people has become a science, yet people appear to be happy to go along with it and not challenge it!
But thank you for responding.
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Being ridiculous now. When was the last time any party suggested something that was a good idea and the opposition said Fxxx me that’s a really good idea
I know it’s never going to happen but I can dream
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Ah, the power of the right wing media and people who are incapable of thinking for themselves!
Tell me, those of you who voted Tory, why do you think a proven inveterate liar is a good leader of this country! Just one good, honest, reason - and knocking anyone in the opposition is NOT a good reason, that's pampering to what you read in the Mail etc! What credentials has Johnson got in your eyes?
The question is fair, the second point of your question is not. Look back to the last election and there was a choice between a few options and for many it is a choice of who was the least worst or who matched their Brexit or policy ideas.
What I would say is I am far more likely to vote for a Labour party led by Kier Starmer than a Tory party led by Boris at this stage and there was the problem at the last election, Corbyn and the extremity of some policies chosen, they were not moderate enough for me. Pretending the opposition was not an issue is sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring the problem frankly.
Let's see what policies the labour party come up with, if they are a little more to the centre than last time and not pushing Brexit they will have a very strong chance of winning.
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I suppose it gets back to the hatchet job the msm has done on Corbyn, no he wasn't perfect but if johnson had suffered the same abuse in the media for as long as JC had most wouldn't have wanted either of them. Add to that the compounded lies about the EU and Brexit and you have a perfect storm created by the media, proof just look at what the result is a baffoon in charge of the response to a pandemic with brexit just over the horizon. Those that warned against johnson have already been proven correct and he's only been in charge a few months, anyone want to place any bets about how much control you're going to get or bet on brexit improviing your life?
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Johnson could be destroyed by the power of the press (if they wanted that)
Remember Beckham the golden boy who got sent off v Argentina and cost us the game and a real World Cup shot - well the Press turned on him and turned a lot of the people against him - so it can be done easily
Here is an extract for those not familiar
Many, including the team's manager, pinned the loss on Beckham's inability to control his temper. For months he was vilified by both the media and the general public. A newspaper printed a dart board with his face on it, and someone was seen hanging a sarong-clad Beckham effigy outside a London pub.
Speaking to GQ in 2015, Men in Blazers host Roger Bennett said the vitriol was so intense that, "there were murder threats," and, "violence crackled around the grounds whenever he played in games."
So if they want you in they leave you alone - if they dont want you they can try and arrange that
I have noticed also that (and I didnt know) that Kier Starmer has been getting grief for owning a field to be used as a Donkey sanctuary
Yet David Cameron trying to be a man of the working class often said his wife "they tell me" has a field near Scunthorpe somewhere. Very vague. Also when leaving office well Sam tells me she has the field near Scunthorpe so we should be ok
I believe this is what stands on the field or perhaps the field is a separate number of acres
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normanby_Hall
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It does say Lincolnshire Council "run" the Estate or dminister it but here is another article showing Sam Cams Dad still uses it - and rakes in 350k a year JUST from a small percentage of the 8 wind turbines he had put up against the wishes of the locals
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/countryside/8716138/Why-Samantha-Camerons-dad-is-stirring-up-a-storm.html
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Ah, the power of the right wing media and people who are incapable of thinking for themselves!
Tell me, those of you who voted Tory, why do you think a proven inveterate liar is a good leader of this country! Just one good, honest, reason - and knocking anyone in the opposition is NOT a good reason, that's pampering to what you read in the Mail etc! What credentials has Johnson got in your eyes?
The question is fair, the second point of your question is not. Look back to the last election and there was a choice between a few options and for many it is a choice of who was the least worst or who matched their Brexit or policy ideas.
What I would say is I am far more likely to vote for a Labour party led by Kier Starmer than a Tory party led by Boris at this stage and there was the problem at the last election, Corbyn and the extremity of some policies chosen, they were not moderate enough for me. Pretending the opposition was not an issue is sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring the problem frankly.
Let's see what policies the labour party come up with, if they are a little more to the centre than last time and not pushing Brexit they will have a very strong chance of winning.
But that's what wrong with many of the electorate who are influenced by the right wing media, Facebook and Twitter that they read. It shouldn't be about personalities, it should be about policies - but so few people in the country bother to read the Manifesto's published by the main parties, they'd rather get their 'truth' from the media; the media that lies to them consistently! Anyone who took the time to read the Labour Manifesto would have seen that everything in it was costed out, (ignoring the silly 'everyone gets free broadband' they touted later but was not part of the Manifesto and was a stupid thing to say to try to buy votes!), and the vast majority of it was to the benefit of the country as a whole. Similarly, if anyone took the time to read the Tory Parties Manifesto they will have seen that there was little substance to it and no costings whatsoever! Rather, they relied on Boris' personality and the hatchet job done on Corbyn by the right wing media, Facebook and Twitter 'bots' to sway the easily persuaded that personality was all and what they actually intended to do was irrelevant!
And guess what, personality, lies and a hatchet job won through - rather proving my point.
You want further proof? The right wing media and right wing politician posters on twitter have already started their hatchet job on Starmer and the Labour Party! Nothing changes, the gullible will always be gullible because it's easier than actually thinking!
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Couple of points.
1. Just because it was costed out doesn't mean you fundamentally have to agree with it - as has been debated on here many a time and around the time of the election.
2. A a simple point there about the use of the media etc. The written press tends to be more right wing, we all agree that. Isn't that the job of left wing commentators to resolve and become attractive themselves? Indeed the labour party has managed to do so in the past under Blair etc.... On the social media side, you tend to see what you're interested in quite often, but the labour party has proven pretty good on that side.
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Typical of the elitist so called educated lefties who see themselves as better than everyone else and insult people on age as well as intelligence and don't realise why they keep losing elections.
The labour party became built in their own image, and like them became elitist and aloof and far from the party I knew, voted for and canvased for in my younger days.
Now it just represents a party of losers, or is that elite losers.
Starmer is not the problem it is his party members and supporters that is the problem.
I thought the op was about the Doncaster Council when I read the heading.
I would be interested to know why you believe people who went to Eton, own several house one of which is often a manor house, have a number of consultancies and non-executive directorships, keep their money in off-shore bank accounts and lead a party that is funded by Russian oligarchs and welcomed in actual fascists are not 'elite'. Is is just the people you mix with?
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Couple of points.
1. Just because it was costed out doesn't mean you fundamentally have to agree with it - as has been debated on here many a time and around the time of the election.
2. A a simple point there about the use of the media etc. The written press tends to be more right wing, we all agree that. Isn't that the job of left wing commentators to resolve and become attractive themselves? Indeed the labour party has managed to do so in the past under Blair etc.... On the social media side, you tend to see what you're interested in quite often, but the labour party has proven pretty good on that side.
Blair courted Murdoch, The Sun & Times supported him in all 3 elections. Gordon Brown was a personal friend of Paul Dacre, former editor of the Daily Heil - fat lot of good it did him.
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My own personal opinion for what its worth is that Johnson wont be PM in 12 months time. The powers that be will find a way to get rid of him and I would think health problems would be to the fore. The bad news would be that Michael Gove would be the likely replacement.
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Some people should be careful what they wish for eh.
I wonder whether Starmer would be interested in a free transfer.
It might be his big chance to become PM.
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It might be his only chance unless he does a Tory Blair.
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Why do you think Boris will be gone in 12 months
I think apart from a lot of things that were beyond his control he’s looked after the working people of the country in general
His next big problem will be maintaining his election pledges and paying for all the borrowing without going back to austerity
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Those working people will eventually see that he is an habitual liar though..
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Sir Robert DeVereux , the civil servant who has people working until 67 to get their pension is retiring at 61. He is the Secretary of the Department of works and pensions. He has a pension pot of £1.8m. a lump sum of £245,000 and a pension of £85,000 a year.
I have no problem with people working hard for a good pension but that seems obscene especially retiring early after condemning other physical workers the right to receive their pension at 65. I’m sure that he’ll manage for six years until he receives his state pension though.☹️
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Why do you think Boris will be gone in 12 months
I think apart from a lot of things that were beyond his control he’s looked after the working people of the country in general
His next big problem will be maintaining his election pledges and paying for all the borrowing without going back to austerity
The response to the virus was completely within his and his government's control. The NHS workers who've died were working people too.
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Why do you think Boris will be gone in 12 months
I think apart from a lot of things that were beyond his control he’s looked after the working people of the country in general
His next big problem will be maintaining his election pledges and paying for all the borrowing without going back to austerity
Phil
Genuine question. What about Johnson's work makes you conclude that he has looked after the working people.
I'm not looking for a fight or an argument. I'm genuinely interested.
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Sir Robert DeVereux , the civil servant who has people working until 67 to get their pension is retiring at 61. He is the Secretary of the Department of works and pensions. He has a pension pot of £1.8m. a lump sum of £245,000 and a pension of £85,000 a year.
I have no problem with people working hard for a good pension but that seems obscene especially retiring early after condemning other physical workers the right to receive their pension at 65. I’m sure that he’ll manage for six years until he receives his state pension though.☹️
He's not responsible for increasing the pension age. Policy decisions such as raising the state pension age are made by the government.
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Why do you think Boris will be gone in 12 months
I think apart from a lot of things that were beyond his control he’s looked after the working people of the country in general
His next big problem will be maintaining his election pledges and paying for all the borrowing without going back to austerity
He is the invisible prime minister. OK he has been ill but how many times have we seen him? He gets slaughtered at pmq's and he has hardly handled the covid situation well has he? The public would possibly accept some of the things they have obviously done wrong but it seems that Cummings has issued a directive that nobody is to use the word sorry or offer any kind of apology or acceptance that they made mistakes. Opinion polls have also shown a marked drop in satisfaction ratings in the last 10 days.
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Ok Glyn, he followed orders and oversaw it. I still think that it’s far too great a pension when you are telling poorer workers that they have to work longer.
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Does he get a greater state pension than anyone else when he reaches 67.?
Other work placed or investment pensions would be greater if the person has reached a higher level in their profession, whether a public employee or not.
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It wouldn’t sit well on my shoulders overseeing this and then taking such a pension on retirement. That is my view IDM. I have no problem with someone earning a works pension, I have one myself. I wonder how hard he has worked to be in this fortunate position?
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You have no problem with people taking a works pension, unless they work in the department which oversees the state pension.?
I could understand your argument if senior civil servants got a bigger state pension, or could take it earlier.
Why wouldn’t he have worked hard to reach the top of his profession.?
I value your opinion so it looks like we may have to agree to disagree here..
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Why do you think Boris will be gone in 12 months
I think apart from a lot of things that were beyond his control he’s looked after the working people of the country in general
His next big problem will be maintaining his election pledges and paying for all the borrowing without going back to austerity
He is the invisible prime minister. OK he has been ill but how many times have we seen him? He gets slaughtered at pmq's and he has hardly handled the covid situation well has he? The public would possibly accept some of the things they have obviously done wrong but it seems that Cummings has issued a directive that nobody is to use the word sorry or offer any kind of apology or acceptance that they made mistakes. Opinion polls have also shown a marked drop in satisfaction ratings in the last 10 days.
They don't even have to admit making mistakes - all they have to do is say that decisions were made based on the information available at the time, and that they now have newer/better information and that therefore decisions have altered as a result. Everybody would understand that, that's how a government is supposed to operate, especially in a time of fast-moving crises. But no, they won't even do that, they'd much rather treat the public as idiots and lie instead. 'Four legs good, two legs better'!