Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: DRFC_AjA on June 02, 2020, 01:02:45 pm
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It should be noted that I'm writing this as someone who is currently out of the country and therefore wouldn't be able to help with this, but hear me out...
...What's happened in the USA probably doesn't resonate with a lot of us, nor are many of us willing to get into the sprint that's happening now of “last one to ... change your Facebook pic to black / hashtag black lives matter / take a knee.. is the biggest racist”......
But I hope what DOES resonate with us is that we've all heard racist, sexist, homophobic chants or abuse from the stands, and unfortunately I'm not talking about the 80s I'm talking about recently. Or we've seen it in the news.
While I personally feel that the above mentioned “sprint to...” is pointless to a certain extent, what I feel is not pointless and more importantly tangible is a banner of some sort that we can show to our players, that we can show to our fans, that we can show to visiting fans, that we're sick of what see and hear too often in the stands.
I for one have the utmost hatred for your ‘regular Joe’ who feels like they have to become neanderthal man at 3pm each Saturday. But I digress, or maybe I don't ? Maybe the point is enough is enough.
Anyone else out there feel this is a good idea? It could even be displayed at a behind closed doors game, after all it's the player whom are the target of the abuse.
Our very own DM probably got abuse when he was younger, though he looks tough as heck on the outside, nobody knows what effect this stuff has on the inside. As we have one of the few black managers in the country I feel we need to support this movement in some way. DM you are not judged on your skin colour.
"Following our team through thick and thin, no matter their sex, religion or colour of skin" was my possible idea
Appreciate people taking the time to read this and i do appreciate that for some they will feel this is unnecessary and pointless. For them I say no judgement by me, I honestly believe each to their own
Thanks
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Why does the fact that DM is black matter. He is a football manager, not a token. People who make issues out of such things are the underlying racists in my book. If people just got on with their lives without a big issue out of everything and looking for discrimination everywhere the world would be a better place, IMO.
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George Floyd can’t get on with his life.
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George Floyd can’t get on with his life.
He is nothing to do with Darren Moore though is he? It's like lumping all white people into one group. It just doesn't make sense.
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No, it’s about making a statement that everyone matters.. it’s not lumping all white people into one group.
In an ideal world we wouldn’t need to make such a statement, but we don’t live in that ideal world do we.?
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We live in a world where black people are disproportionately discriminated against, and these protests in America are something that should be highlighted. The world needs to take note - we are far from being in a position to cast aspersions here in Britain with plenty of racism still prevalent on our shores too.
All people should be respected and treated fairly, but sadly they are not.
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Why does the fact that DM is black matter. He is a football manager, not a token. People who make issues out of such things are the underlying racists in my book. If people just got on with their lives without a big issue out of everything and looking for discrimination everywhere the world would be a better place, IMO.
Great. You'll be stopping telling everyone how Millwall fans are discriminated against then finally.
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It should be noted that I'm writing this as someone who is currently out of the country and therefore wouldn't be able to help with this, but hear me out...
...What's happened in the USA probably doesn't resonate with a lot of us, nor are many of us willing to get into the sprint that's happening now of “last one to ... change your Facebook pic to black / hashtag black lives matter / take a knee.. is the biggest racist”......
But I hope what DOES resonate with us is that we've all heard racist, sexist, homophobic chants or abuse from the stands, and unfortunately I'm not talking about the 80s I'm talking about recently. Or we've seen it in the news.
While I personally feel that the above mentioned “sprint to...” is pointless to a certain extent, what I feel is not pointless and more importantly tangible is a banner of some sort that we can show to our players, that we can show to our fans, that we can show to visiting fans, that we're sick of what see and hear too often in the stands.
I for one have the utmost hatred for your ‘regular Joe’ who feels like they have to become neanderthal man at 3pm each Saturday. But I digress, or maybe I don't ? Maybe the point is enough is enough.
Anyone else out there feel this is a good idea? It could even be displayed at a behind closed doors game, after all it's the player whom are the target of the abuse.
Our very own DM probably got abuse when he was younger, though he looks tough as heck on the outside, nobody knows what effect this stuff has on the inside. As we have one of the few black managers in the country I feel we need to support this movement in some way. DM you are not judged on your skin colour.
"Following our team through thick and thin, no matter their sex, religion or colour of skin" was my possible idea
Appreciate people taking the time to read this and i do appreciate that for some they will feel this is unnecessary and pointless. For them I say no judgement by me, I honestly believe each to their own
Thanks
I agree with this idea. I like the idea of having an inclusive message although I don’t agree with your words you suggest. Being fully inclusive is more than sex, religion and colour of skin. For example sexuality etc
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It should be noted that I'm writing this as someone who is currently out of the country and therefore wouldn't be able to help with this, but hear me out...
...What's happened in the USA probably doesn't resonate with a lot of us, nor are many of us willing to get into the sprint that's happening now of “last one to ... change your Facebook pic to black / hashtag black lives matter / take a knee.. is the biggest racist”......
But I hope what DOES resonate with us is that we've all heard racist, sexist, homophobic chants or abuse from the stands, and unfortunately I'm not talking about the 80s I'm talking about recently. Or we've seen it in the news.
While I personally feel that the above mentioned “sprint to...” is pointless to a certain extent, what I feel is not pointless and more importantly tangible is a banner of some sort that we can show to our players, that we can show to our fans, that we can show to visiting fans, that we're sick of what see and hear too often in the stands.
I for one have the utmost hatred for your ‘regular Joe’ who feels like they have to become neanderthal man at 3pm each Saturday. But I digress, or maybe I don't ? Maybe the point is enough is enough.
Anyone else out there feel this is a good idea? It could even be displayed at a behind closed doors game, after all it's the player whom are the target of the abuse.
Our very own DM probably got abuse when he was younger, though he looks tough as heck on the outside, nobody knows what effect this stuff has on the inside. As we have one of the few black managers in the country I feel we need to support this movement in some way. DM you are not judged on your skin colour.
"Following our team through thick and thin, no matter their sex, religion or colour of skin" was my possible idea
Appreciate people taking the time to read this and i do appreciate that for some they will feel this is unnecessary and pointless. For them I say no judgement by me, I honestly believe each to their own
Thanks
I agree with this idea. I like the idea of having an inclusive message although I don’t agree with your words you suggest. Being fully inclusive is more than sex, religion and colour of skin. For example sexuality etc
I agree with the gist of your point Scooter, I too noted that the wording needs a little work but I'm completely with the OP on the point of principle and his idea in general.
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To those who says it's not relevant....As said, I respect your views. The whole point of this idea is to take it from the USA where it's less relevant, to the UK, to something that we do know and see exists on the terraces.
In theory there's a lot of discrimination and a banner could wrap around the ground twice.
Any suggestions on new words or new idea are welcome. I just feel with one of the few black managers and a couple of our players having talked about their mental health issues, this could be the time to show support
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I think the slogan “United we stand” works as well as any. Unless it has been used before for other more concerning purposes.?
Make it a hashtag or something, so when folks say “what does that mean” they can find out what the message is, if they can’t deduce it in the first place..
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OK, so here are a couple of things to consider.
Firstly, by the time we can get a banner sorted and installed in the stadium the BLM movement will have moved on. The reason I say that is that it will be months before games are played at the Keepmoat again, and even many more months before we as supporters are allowed in.
The 2nd thing to consider is that if we do this because we have a black manager in DM then what happens if he never takes charge of another game for DRFC again? Whilst I'm not trying to scare people into thinking he's off, because I'm not, its always a question to ask when we have no idea what next season is going to look like and who is going to be here at the club. It would be wrong to think we are immune from financial hardship and having to take action, we are not, we are far from it.
So, that doesn't mean I'm against the idea, I'm not, and I'm more than happy to do my bit. But we do spend time, effort, and money supporting Kick It Out, Fans For Diversity etc These are the schemes we've worked with and partnering with them to point out the racist attitudes of fellow supporters. Its not that we don't already do these things, because we do, but if you want to flesh out what you want I can always promote it through these organisations and ask for funding at the same time.
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Excellent post SM.
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I think the slogan “United we stand” works as well as any. Unless it has been used before for other more concerning purposes.?
Make it a hashtag or something, so when folks say “what does that mean” they can find out what the message is, if they can’t deduce it in the first place..
Completely at odds with the “taking the knee” message though ;)
I think that a banner is a fair idea but as SM says it could be months away before anyone will even go into the stadium. I don’t think that we as a club should only do it because our manager, though - the issue is much bigger than that and we should be showing our support regardless. Right now positive and supportive social media messages are about all we can do as a club, though.
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Why does the fact that DM is black matter. He is a football manager, not a token. People who make issues out of such things are the underlying racists in my book. If people just got on with their lives without a big issue out of everything and looking for discrimination everywhere the world would be a better place, IMO.
the news reporter that the so called police officer that smashed his shield in to his midriff was not black but he got it all the same for nothing. Yes it does happen mor to black people in the USA but it should not happen to anyone that does nothing wrong
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I don't think what ever we do over here will make one ioter in America
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"Everyone, regardless"
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It should be noted that I'm writing this as someone who is currently out of the country and therefore wouldn't be able to help with this, but hear me out...
...What's happened in the USA probably doesn't resonate with a lot of us, nor are many of us willing to get into the sprint that's happening now of “last one to ... change your Facebook pic to black / hashtag black lives matter / take a knee.. is the biggest racist”......
But I hope what DOES resonate with us is that we've all heard racist, sexist, homophobic chants or abuse from the stands, and unfortunately I'm not talking about the 80s I'm talking about recently. Or we've seen it in the news.
While I personally feel that the above mentioned “sprint to...” is pointless to a certain extent, what I feel is not pointless and more importantly tangible is a banner of some sort that we can show to our players, that we can show to our fans, that we can show to visiting fans, that we're sick of what see and hear too often in the stands.
I for one have the utmost hatred for your ‘regular Joe’ who feels like they have to become neanderthal man at 3pm each Saturday. But I digress, or maybe I don't ? Maybe the point is enough is enough.
Anyone else out there feel this is a good idea? It could even be displayed at a behind closed doors game, after all it's the player whom are the target of the abuse.
Our very own DM probably got abuse when he was younger, though he looks tough as heck on the outside, nobody knows what effect this stuff has on the inside. As we have one of the few black managers in the country I feel we need to support this movement in some way. DM you are not judged on your skin colour.
"Following our team through thick and thin, no matter their sex, religion or colour of skin" was my possible idea
Appreciate people taking the time to read this and i do appreciate that for some they will feel this is unnecessary and pointless. For them I say no judgement by me, I honestly believe each to their own
Thanks
Excellent idea.
We have come a long way since Rufus and Ranks and Deane were regularly subjected to "ain't no black in the Union Jack" chants at away matches, and since idiots of ours were shouting gorilla grunts at opposition black players at the turn of the century. But there's still a long long way to go. And this would be a great bit of symbolism.
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Agreed it could take a while. But then I remember throwing a fiver towards a south stand banner about 10 or so years ago that seemed to be made pretty quickly from idea to being in the ground.
Though I'm not sure it necessarily has to be done next season or when footy is back to normal. "Inclusion 1 - 0 racism" to keep a football theme.
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This is not about fads but a much wider issue. Anyone remember Stephen Lawrence? Institutioalised racism is endemic in a right wing president who tweets "when the looting starts the shooting starts" in predominantly black areas....who also dismissed the death of the person run over at the demonstration last year by a facist. Some have said Moore isn't token as a manager. However the amount of black managers across the whole pyramid is pityful. There is racism however its just gone more underground due to legislation. To deny its existence is to undermine opportunities and fair treatment of black people whether in the USA or UK... Support anything which highlights this..
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Ever thought that quite a few black managers haven't been very good at it and that has nothing to do with colour
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There have been a lot of white managers who haven’t been very good. The list would be endless. There will be some excellent black coaches who have had plenty of playing experience and their UEFA licences - which won’t be easy to pass. They just need a fair opportunity. We shouldn’t have to have a Rooney rule for interviews - ethnicity shouldn’t even come into it. If you meet the criteria for the job you should be interviewed and judged fairly on your cv and interview performance.
Racism in football as with society has been going on for decades and needs stamping out
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Ever thought that quite a few black managers haven't been very good at it and that has nothing to do with colour
The number of BAME managers/coaches is disproportionately lower than the number of players and that indicates a big issue. Why don't more BAME players go into coaching after retiring? Why don't more sustain careers in that side of the sport? The answers cannot be boiled down to "not good enough". Those who think that it can are either ignorant or guilty of purveying cultural prejudices themselves.
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What I do not understand is why is it when we have so many of our brothers with origins from the Indian sub continent in the UK do we have so few playing professional football ? I cannot think of any.
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What I do not understand is why is it when we have so many of our brothers with origins from the Indian sub continent in the UK do we have so few playing professional football ? I cannot think of any.
There's work going on in that area to try and address, not only players but supporters as well, the lack of participants in the game.
My good friend Anwar Uddin heads up the 'Fans For Diversity' part of the FSA and Kick It Out. He's of Bangladeshi origin and was part of the West Ham academy. Wikipedia says this about him;
During a career which began at West Ham United in 2001 and concluded with a season at Eastbourne Borough from 2012 to 2013, Uddin notably represented several Football League clubs including Dagenham & Redbridge and Barnet. He was the first person of Bangladeshi origin to play professional football in England, and, while at Dagenham & Redbridge, became the first British Asian to captain a football club in the top four divisions of English football.
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What I do not understand is why is it when we have so many of our brothers with origins from the Indian sub continent in the UK do we have so few playing professional football ? I cannot think of any.
Maybe they prefer cricket?
F"&I me. What I do not understand is why is it when we have so many of our brothers with origins from the Indian sub continent in the UK do we have so few playing professional football ? I cannot think of any.
Maybe they prefer cricket?
Surely if you live in the Isle,you prefer a Barbour,flat cap,and keeping it in the family.
All this geezer/plod/etc. Is a bit of insecurity on your part?
When you couldn't buy bread in the Isle(absolute bollox), blame it on the sunshine,blame it on th boogie,..
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What I do not understand is why is it when we have so many of our brothers with origins from the Indian sub continent in the UK do we have so few playing professional football ? I cannot think of any.
Maybe they prefer cricket?
Your comment, not for the first time, is an absolute disgrace.
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What's the lad at Leicester called midfielder big mop of hair isn't he Asian?
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What about Zesh Rehman? He played at a decent level - Fulham, Norwich? Bradford
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There was a piece about him in the Telegrapn & Argus a week or so ago. He played at all four major levels in the English game.
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What I do not understand is why is it when we have so many of our brothers with origins from the Indian sub continent in the UK do we have so few playing professional football ? I cannot think of any.
Maybe they prefer cricket?
Your comment, not for the first time, is an absolute disgrace.
I'm in the very odd position if struggling to see what is wrong with AL's post. Traditionally, cricket HAS been more popular than football in the Indian sub-continent and I don't see how mentioning that can possibly be construed as offensive. Surely that must be A factor in why there are so few footballers from a South Asian heritage?
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What I do not understand is why is it when we have so many of our brothers with origins from the Indian sub continent in the UK do we have so few playing professional football ? I cannot think of any.
Maybe they prefer cricket?
Your comment, not for the first time, is an absolute disgrace.
I'm in the very odd position if struggling to see what is wrong with AL's post. Traditionally, cricket HAS been more popular than football in the Indian sub-continent and I don't see how mentioning that can possibly be construed as offensive. Surely that must be A factor in why there are so few footballers from a South Asian heritage?
It read as inflammatory to me, or at least racially stereotypical. If it was the first time I'd seen such a comment from Axholme then fair enough, benefit of the doubt, but it isn't unfortunately.
Yes cricket is very popular in India and countries like Pakistan and Bangladesh, but it is also very popular in England too for obvious reasons so I'm not seeing the correlation to be honest. There certainly are not a proportional amount of footballers with an Indian background in this country when matched up to the UK population.
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Their national game is cricket so whats the problem,USA is baseball and american football,Australia is rugby and cricket,valid point I think
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Look at Frank Lampard, straight in at Derby as soon as he got his badges, Gerrard straight in at Rangers. Top, or near top flight, your first job. How many black ex prem footballers have done that? I can only think of Paul Ince was he straight in at Blackburn? And were they even in the prem at that time. Hasselbaink started at Barnet and Campbell at ???. Absolute legendary prem players first job almost Sunday league relative to their white peers.
Personally don't see any problem with saying Bangladesh national sport is cricket. There's no white people doing sumo wrestling in Japan but I'm not getting up in arms about it. I think we need to be careful not to brand everyone a racist or suggest they are so quickly as we do these days.
However, to deny that there is a problem of some sort in the game we love is a problem for me. Because it's quite obvious just by opening your ears at a match.
So, back to the original idea. I'm getting the sense that many feel the idea is good, showing support to DM is good, but perhaps using a banner is not the way to do it?
Or is it? It just needs more organising
Or, some other expression is needed?
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Look at Frank Lampard, straight in at Derby as soon as he got his badges, Gerrard straight in at Rangers. Top, or near top flight, your first job. How many black ex prem footballers have done that? I can only think of Paul Ince was he straight in at Blackburn? And were they even in the prem at that time. Hasselbaink started at Barnet and Campbell at ???. Absolute legendary prem players first job almost Sunday league relative to their white peers.
Personally don't see any problem with saying Bangladesh national sport is cricket. There's no white people doing sumo wrestling in Japan but I'm not getting up in arms about it. I think we need to be careful not to brand everyone a racist or suggest they are so quickly as we do these days.
However, to deny that there is a problem of some sort in the game we love is a problem for me. Because it's quite obvious just by opening your ears at a match.
So, back to the original idea. I'm getting the sense that many feel the idea is good, showing support to DM is good, but perhaps using a banner is not the way to do it?
Or is it? It just needs more organising
Or, some other expression is needed?
“Because it’s quite obvious just by opening your ears at a match”.
It is many, many years since I heard a racist chant or shout out at a Rovers match.
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Look at Frank Lampard, straight in at Derby as soon as he got his badges, Gerrard straight in at Rangers. Top, or near top flight, your first job. How many black ex prem footballers have done that? I can only think of Paul Ince was he straight in at Blackburn? And were they even in the prem at that time. Hasselbaink started at Barnet and Campbell at ???. Absolute legendary prem players first job almost Sunday league relative to their white peers.
Personally don't see any problem with saying Bangladesh national sport is cricket. There's no white people doing sumo wrestling in Japan but I'm not getting up in arms about it. I think we need to be careful not to brand everyone a racist or suggest they are so quickly as we do these days.
However, to deny that there is a problem of some sort in the game we love is a problem for me. Because it's quite obvious just by opening your ears at a match.
So, back to the original idea. I'm getting the sense that many feel the idea is good, showing support to DM is good, but perhaps using a banner is not the way to do it?
Or is it? It just needs more organising
Or, some other expression is needed?
“Because it’s quite obvious just by opening your ears at a match”.
It is many, many years since I heard a racist chant or shout out at a Rovers match.
Dead right Hound. They would be reported to stewards immediately, and quite rightly so.
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I wouldn’t put Hasselbaink and Campbell as legendary Premiership players ,not in Gerrard and Lampard bracket . The owners of most clubs want “names” irrespective of their colour , Lampard might have been a bit lucky to get the Derby job, but aren’t their owners Americans with pots full of money, as for Gerrard he’s at Rangers and they also want a name. Paul Scholes first and maybe only job was at Oldham, not exactly high flyers. Hasselbaink started at Burton not Barnet then soon jumped ship to QPR.
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Paul Ince was at Macclesfield then M K Dons before Blackburn
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John Barnes Tranmere and Celtic, didn't he have some involvement at Newcastle at one time
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Look at Frank Lampard, straight in at Derby as soon as he got his badges, Gerrard straight in at Rangers. Top, or near top flight, your first job. How many black ex prem footballers have done that? I can only think of Paul Ince was he straight in at Blackburn? And were they even in the prem at that time. Hasselbaink started at Barnet and Campbell at ???. Absolute legendary prem players first job almost Sunday league relative to their white peers.
Personally don't see any problem with saying Bangladesh national sport is cricket. There's no white people doing sumo wrestling in Japan but I'm not getting up in arms about it. I think we need to be careful not to brand everyone a racist or suggest they are so quickly as we do these days.
However, to deny that there is a problem of some sort in the game we love is a problem for me. Because it's quite obvious just by opening your ears at a match.
So, back to the original idea. I'm getting the sense that many feel the idea is good, showing support to DM is good, but perhaps using a banner is not the way to do it?
Or is it? It just needs more organising
Or, some other expression is needed?
“Because it’s quite obvious just by opening your ears at a match”.
It is many, many years since I heard a racist chant or shout out at a Rovers match.
Dead right Hound. They would be reported to stewards immediately, and quite rightly so.
I've heard racism at the rovers, if you think that it doesn't happen you're burying your head in the sand.
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Look at Frank Lampard, straight in at Derby as soon as he got his badges, Gerrard straight in at Rangers. Top, or near top flight, your first job. How many black ex prem footballers have done that? I can only think of Paul Ince was he straight in at Blackburn? And were they even in the prem at that time. Hasselbaink started at Barnet and Campbell at ???. Absolute legendary prem players first job almost Sunday league relative to their white peers.
Personally don't see any problem with saying Bangladesh national sport is cricket. There's no white people doing sumo wrestling in Japan but I'm not getting up in arms about it. I think we need to be careful not to brand everyone a racist or suggest they are so quickly as we do these days.
However, to deny that there is a problem of some sort in the game we love is a problem for me. Because it's quite obvious just by opening your ears at a match.
So, back to the original idea. I'm getting the sense that many feel the idea is good, showing support to DM is good, but perhaps using a banner is not the way to do it?
Or is it? It just needs more organising
Or, some other expression is needed?
“Because it’s quite obvious just by opening your ears at a match”.
It is many, many years since I heard a racist chant or shout out at a Rovers match.
Dead right Hound. They would be reported to stewards immediately, and quite rightly so.
I've heard racism at the rovers, if you think that it doesn't happen you're burying your head in the sand.
No, I am saying I haven’t heard it.
Where did I say it doesn’t happen.
Have you reported the abuser to stewards?
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I have Darren Moore down as the most senior UK BAME manager in English football today. To be honest, there are only four such managers, with Darren managing at the highest level. Him, Sol Campbell at the barely credible Southend United in League One, then down in League Two are Keith Curle at Northampton Town and our mate Dino Maamria at Oldham Athletic.
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As a side note, it's worth saying one of Rovers most impressive managers came from the BAME community.
Sammy Chung.
I'd say his legacy is still with the club today, since it was he who identified the need to open up and talk directly to supporters. His back room meet the fans meetings at the Park Hotel, I suggest directly inspired the met the fans meetings the club still hold. That engagement I suspect was fundamental in the development of the VSC.
I'd go so far as to say Sammy is one of the best managers the club has ever had.
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Sammy Chung is a great man. His 1994/95 team is for me - relatively - on par with 2003/4 and 2007/8. He put that together within weeks of being appointed. A top, top manager for us.
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“Because it’s quite obvious just by opening your ears at a match”.
It is many, many years since I heard a racist chant or shout out at a Rovers match.
Wish I could say the same thing.
Bristol City away a few seasons back a Rovers fan was very audibly shouting racist abuse at the assistant referee. What bothered me most about this was that I was about 10 rows down and was the only person to say anything. I tried to shout him down from where I was and then at half-time went up to ask him why he thought that was acceptable.
In hindsight I wish I'd pointed him out to a steward, but as I was at the game on my own, that didn't seem the safest option.
More recently I called out a group of Rovers fans walking through Hyde Park singing racist songs last season.
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“Because it’s quite obvious just by opening your ears at a match”.
It is many, many years since I heard a racist chant or shout out at a Rovers match.
Wish I could say the same thing.
Bristol City away a few seasons back a Rovers fan was very audibly shouting racist abuse at the assistant referee. What bothered me most about this was that I was about 10 rows down and was the only person to say anything. I tried to shout him down from where I was and then at half-time went up to ask him why he thought that was acceptable.
In hindsight I wish I'd pointed him out to a steward, but as I was at the game on my own, that didn't seem the safest option.
More recently I called out a group of Rovers fans walking through Hyde Park singing racist songs last season.
We had quite a few instances of racial abuse carried out by various DRFC supporters last season which ended up being reported to the various supporter organisations. One was incredibly thoughtless and harmful surrounding the game at Fleetwood. Personally I wanted it taken further but the abused individual decided they didn't want to make a bigger issue of it, completely wrong in my opinion.
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You can't believe that a fan would abuse another fan on a racial basis. More so when you look at our manager and the make up of the team. They need educating and maybe meet DM and explain their views to him personally. I'm sure that might make them think.