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Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: roversdude on July 01, 2020, 12:34:39 pm

Title: Wigan
Post by: roversdude on July 01, 2020, 12:34:39 pm
Don’t know how it will affect everything but just gone into administration
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Wiltshire Exile on July 01, 2020, 12:35:47 pm
Don’t know how it will affect everything but just gone into administration

Details here on Sky News:

https://news.sky.com/story/wigan-athletic-football-club-goes-into-administration-12018790

Just pray that this is not the first of many.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Prez on July 01, 2020, 12:37:27 pm
They were strongly rumoured to be in for Whiteman.

Cant see that now.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: DonnyOsmond on July 01, 2020, 12:37:48 pm
Wonder if the EFL will still give them a points deduction in the current circumstances?
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Wiltshire Exile on July 01, 2020, 12:40:03 pm
Wonder if the EFL will still give them a points deduction in the current circumstances?

Apparently so. See here:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53247333

Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: roversdude on July 01, 2020, 12:40:39 pm
Be interesting to see DO don’t think rules have changed so in theory they should get a deduction
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Frankie Rennie on July 01, 2020, 12:46:56 pm
Should be a 12 point deduction as the seasons still live, circumstances should have nothing to do with it. At least Tyke should be happy as that would put Wigan bottom. Question is who’s next? Only a
Matter of time I think. Blackburn Rovers?
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: roversdude on July 01, 2020, 12:50:22 pm
Depends they may play their Bolton Wanderers card out of jail free card - seriously it will be the tip of the iceberg
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Campsall rover on July 01, 2020, 12:51:38 pm
Should be a 12 point deduction as the seasons still live, circumstances should have nothing to do with it. At least Tyke should be happy as that would put Wigan bottom. Question is who’s next? Only a
Matter of time I think. Blackburn Rovers?
So what happens if 3/4 Championship clubs go into admin. -12 points for each?  The EFL could have a total farce of a situation to sort out.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: RoversAlias on July 01, 2020, 12:58:08 pm
I'm not sure this has anything to do with Covid. Four weeks ago they were taken over by a Hong Kong business. It baffles me that they are somehow in administration so soon after that.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: One_Matty_Lucas on July 01, 2020, 01:02:38 pm
Should be a 12 point deduction as the seasons still live, circumstances should have nothing to do with it. At least Tyke should be happy as that would put Wigan bottom. Question is who’s next? Only a
Matter of time I think. Blackburn Rovers?
So what happens if 3/4 Championship clubs go into admin. -12 points for each?  The EFL could have a total farce of a situation to sort out.

Was just thinking, as soon as 3 go into admin others might as well as impact would be less if others are relegated.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: drfchound on July 01, 2020, 01:20:04 pm
It could happen though.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Frankie Rennie on July 01, 2020, 01:27:07 pm
Depends they may play their Bolton Wanderers card out of jail free card - seriously it will be the tip of the iceberg

Ha ha nice one dude. As you say, who will be next because there sure will be. Surprised It’s the pie eaters though because it was only this time last year they were taken over and final pieces sorted a few weeks ago. Just shows how this virus is seriously affecting clubs at all levels.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: NewDonny on July 01, 2020, 01:28:14 pm
They were strongly rumoured to be in for Whiteman.

Cant see that now.

That just shows you the drivel thats reported in the local & national press and whats  posted on social media and that you shouldn't believe what you read unless it comes from reliable source.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Campsall rover on July 01, 2020, 01:35:55 pm
I'm not sure this has anything to do with Covid. Four weeks ago they were taken over by a Hong Kong business. It baffles me that they are somehow in administration so soon after that.
Sounds very suspicious to me. Football is being used by some very unscrupulous people. No evidence that is the case with Wigan of course.
Just once again makes you very thankful our club is run by the local owners that we have.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: selby on July 01, 2020, 02:08:12 pm
  It will all get sorted next March when the EFL meet again.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: selby on July 01, 2020, 02:31:09 pm
  Sorry re read the post on BBC if they are outside the bottom three this season the 12 points penalty will be administered
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: DRNaith on July 01, 2020, 02:38:21 pm
I thought there was a point in the season, where after that point any points deductions were incurred the following season.  As always, happy to be wrong.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: selby on July 01, 2020, 02:40:16 pm
  Naith you are right I got the wrong end of the stick
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: DonnyOsmond on July 01, 2020, 02:50:55 pm
I thought there was a point in the season, where after that point any points deductions were incurred the following season.  As always, happy to be wrong.

Yeah it's usually March, around 6-8 games left. Which is where we're at now. So it could be next season now.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: ian1980 on July 01, 2020, 02:54:39 pm
If at the end of the season they are already in the relegation places based on their on field results, the penalty will apply next season in L1

If the are out of the relegation places at the end of the season based on their on field results, the deduction will apply to this season. It then depends whether the 12 point deduction puts them down into the relegation places or not as to whether they are relegated or not.

So for them, they need to be in excess of 12 points above the relegation places at the end of the season otherwise they go down
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Frankie Rennie on July 01, 2020, 03:22:12 pm
Very much agree Campsall, you know like we do what havoc a rogue owner causes. Like you we’ve now got local, respectable owners who will run the club prudently but sadly there are too many coming into the game for the finance involved and in Wigan’s case possible asset strippers. The EFL have once again been found wanting in their responsible owners test if these people have to bail out after less than a year. Feel sorry for Wigan fans even though they laughed at us.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: big fat yorkshire pudding on July 01, 2020, 03:32:45 pm
Bit of a problem for the efl though, if they penalise Wigan for this then it just exacerbates what is a huge failing on the efl part. Within a month of determining these guys could fund the club it appears they can't.  The efl face some .big questions there.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Campsall rover on July 01, 2020, 04:14:29 pm
Bit of a problem for the efl though, if they penalise Wigan for this then it just exacerbates what is a huge failing on the efl part. Within a month of determining these guys could fund the club it appears they can't.  The efl face some .big questions there.
Problem is some owners seem to be able to cover up their past history or don’t have any obvious skeletons.
But they come in and asset strip the club all the same.
Whelan insists the club was in good shape when he sold the club. The buyers then sold it on again.
Something doesn’t sit right. It’s appalling.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: wilts rover on July 01, 2020, 04:20:20 pm
I wonder if the fall off in relations between the UK & China over Hong Kong have anything to do with this? Be quite a coincidence if they didn't?
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: tyke1962 on July 01, 2020, 04:58:19 pm
Looking likely a 12 point deduction for Wigan which right now would put them rock bottom of the league on 38 points .

In an ideal world it isn't what you want to see , but then again we didn't pay £4m for Kieffer Moore when clearly we didn't have the money to do so , no we sold him to Wigan to balance our books .

I'm not going to dance on their grave but at the same time they haven't helped themselves either , pound to a penny they still owe us at least half of that transfer fee which could have serious consequences for us .

Tip of a very big iceberg is this .



Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: idler on July 01, 2020, 05:22:57 pm
The salary cap in League 2 if set at £1.5 million will be £1.2 million less than Bradford City's wage budget for last season.
They are worried that if they don't start working to that budget now if it is voted in they will then have a points deduction next season.
I think that they only have about 14 contracted players now as well.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Frankie Rennie on July 01, 2020, 05:42:29 pm
Surely if you have players on existing contracts you can’t be expected to reduce them, that would be ridiculous and I would have though illegal. Also they can hardly penalise you for it points wise either but then this is the EFL we are talking about.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Frankie Rennie on July 01, 2020, 05:47:31 pm
Bit of a problem for the efl though, if they penalise Wigan for this then it just exacerbates what is a huge failing on the efl part. Within a month of determining these guys could fund the club it appears they can't.  The efl face some .big questions there.

You weren’t saying that about our owner last year bfyp, yet that’s exactly what Harvey at the WFL did with us. Anderson claimed to have the funds to run the club and pay wages then pulled the rug in both leading to our missed game. It really is time somebody took control of the EFL as they are far from fit for purpose. Wigan are only the first of many I feel so they’re going to be busy. I fear for Wigan’s future now, who would buy them in this climate?
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Campsall rover on July 01, 2020, 06:15:15 pm
I wonder if the fall off in relations between the UK & China over Hong Kong have anything to do with this? Be quite a coincidence if they didn't?
Possible, but you might be putting 2 & 2 together & making 5   :ohmy:
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Colemans Left Hook on July 01, 2020, 11:20:26 pm
Should be a 12 point deduction as the seasons still live, circumstances should have nothing to do with it. At least Tyke should be happy as that would put Wigan bottom. Question is who’s next? Only a
Matter of time I think. Blackburn Rovers?
So what happens if 3/4 Championship clubs go into admin. -12 points for each?  The EFL could have a total farce of a situation to sort out.

slight variation here  remember  this at the start of 2008/09

"Bournemouth will start the League Two season on minus 17 points, the Football
League has confirmed."

"League Two rivals Rotherham have already been deducted 17 points and Luton 30, the Hatters having been found guilty of trangressing transfer dealings."

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1042684/Bournemouth-start-League-Two-17-point-deduction.html
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: steve@dcfd on July 02, 2020, 12:15:09 am
Let’s look at a different scenario Wigan not conceded a goal in the last six games. They’ve won four out of the last five. If they get 12 pts from their last 6 games then they’ll have 62 pts. That means at least one of the bottom three as got to get a minimum of 51 pts. It will be interesting what happens. They have until the start of next season to sort out owners, before the EFL will act and could still be in the Championship. It might be pie in the sky but just another thought.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: idler on July 02, 2020, 12:24:25 am
Surely if you have players on existing contracts you can’t be expected to reduce them, that would be ridiculous and I would have though illegal. Also they can hardly penalise you for it points wise either but then this is the EFL we are talking about.
If you are over the limit now with maybe only 14 players how can you increase your squad size?
You would be just increasing the gap between the agreed Cap figure and your budget. I would imagine that existing contracts are OK but do you get rid of big earners to get a bigger squad? The other side of the coin is who else would be in a position to offer them a big salary?
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: IDM on July 02, 2020, 08:25:30 am
I might be wrong but I thought the admin thing went something like this:

There’s a cut off date in late March, and if a club goes into administration before that date the points deduction applies there and then as a punishment in season.

If this happens after the date, the points deduction then depends on where the club finishes in the table. 

If they finish safe from relegation by a margin greater than the deduction, then the points deduction happens the following season.

If the club would have been relegated anyway, the deduction applies in the following season in the lower division (Leeds for example)

If the club would avoid relegation by less points than the penalty, then the punishment applies at the end of the season so they go down.

Now, I may be wrong with some of that, but a punishment needs to be a punishment, or what’s the point.?
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: idler on July 02, 2020, 09:56:05 am
That's exactly how I understood it as well IDM. Wasn't it brought out to stop teams hanging on just to avoid going down the same season?
I'm sure that it was changed because a team did just that.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: roversdude on July 02, 2020, 10:21:58 am
Isn’t there still action pending over Derby and Wendies too
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: RoversAlias on July 02, 2020, 11:35:30 am
That is exactly right IDM, and was made that way after Leeds and Boston both went into administration after knowing they were going down anyway. At least in Boston's case it was literally minutes before the end of the final game when they knew they weren't going to win and stay up.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: IDM on July 02, 2020, 12:34:07 pm
Ken Bates did it at Leeds at half time in their final fixture that season.  Thought he would get away with it.

Leeds fans still bang on about -15 points.!!
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: albie on July 02, 2020, 10:15:16 pm
What a strange tale this is:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jul/02/story-of-how-wigan-collapsed-into-administration-au-yeung-investigation

Looks like football was not the point of the takeover!
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Pancho Regan on July 03, 2020, 08:12:40 am
What a strange tale this is:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jul/02/story-of-how-wigan-collapsed-into-administration-au-yeung-investigation

Looks like football was not the point of the takeover!

What an absolute disgrace.
A club with such a proud history, trashed by some faceless foreign 'money-men' in very dubious circumstances.
Lessons never seem to be learned do they?

Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: drfchound on July 03, 2020, 08:27:14 am
How do these people get through the fit and proper persons test.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Campsall rover on July 03, 2020, 09:14:11 am
How do these people get through the fit and proper persons test.
That is the big question hound. It would seem they only have to prove they have the money.
No bond in place and nothing much else. This is now becoming a sick joke. Our football clubs are being pillaged by all & Sundry and this needs sorting NOW.
I don’t have any belief though that it will.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: silent majority on July 03, 2020, 12:14:53 pm
How do these people get through the fit and proper persons test.
That is the big question hound. It would seem they only have to prove they have the money.
No bond in place and nothing much else. This is now becoming a sick joke. Our football clubs are being pillaged by all & Sundry and this needs sorting NOW.
I don’t have any belief though that it will.

There's been an ongoing governance review of football for quite some time. The FA, along with DCMS has instructed the EPL and EFL to come up with solutions to some of the major issues. We, the FSA, produced our own document and proposals (which I've mentioned on here numerous times) which the FA and Government stated that we had understood the situation far better than anyone, and that the EFL and EPL should look at it more closely. So far the response from both organisations has been positive.

So, yes it will change.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: selby on July 03, 2020, 01:29:43 pm
  SM, I appreciate everything that people like yourself do for the good of football and the time and effort you and others put in.
  But the time line was very short at the beginning of this pandemic, when there was interest from outside influences and some good will in government and concern.
  The money people in the game have slow timed that fearful in the FA and EFL  of losing influence and power for the hangers on, and the EPL and big clubs fearful of having to chip in and save some of the clubs they see as 1) irrelevant 2) an annoyance 3) their supporters as a potential cash cow of their own if the small clubs go out of business.
   My gut feeling now is if the government do not step in and impose restraint and pressure on the EPL they will contribute nothing, at least one and probably two of the cup competitions will be scrapped limiting the small clubs ability to win extra revenue, and far from playing less games the top clubs with world wide reputations will use the extra time between competitive games to play round robbin competitions between themselves or exhibition games abroad with most of them televised.
  The government can however stop the rot if they just impose a 30% levy  on agents fees and transfers over £2 million 50% of the levy to the exchequer and 50% into a lower league football club fund, which would be the start of keeping the money in the game instead of in the pockets of rip off spivs.
 
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Dare to dream! on July 03, 2020, 02:43:07 pm
Sounds like some real dodg stuff was happening with the ownership of the club. Can't help but feel sorry for the fans, they really don't deserve this.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: silent majority on July 03, 2020, 02:59:25 pm
selby,

I'm not sure where you're coming from with some of that. But, the government did tell the EPL that one of the conditions for Project Restart was that they must help out the smaller clubs further down the pyramid. We wait to see what that is, but for some clubs that's the lifeline they need. I'm sure the EPL will push to have one of the cup competitions cancelled as part of that conversation, but that's all to be negotiated yet, so it might not happen.

As part of the EFL changes that are anticipated with regard to salary caps and squad sizes one of those is that agents fees are to be included in the total. That means any expensive agents will be frozen out by the EFL, either that or the players will have to fund the agents themselves. Not all agents earn massive amounts of cash, but some obviously do. But your plan to tax on the top of that and divert funds to lower clubs is a non-starter.


Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Campsall rover on July 03, 2020, 04:14:54 pm
How do these people get through the fit and proper persons test.
That is the big question hound. It would seem they only have to prove they have the money.
No bond in place and nothing much else. This is now becoming a sick joke. Our football clubs are being pillaged by all & Sundry and this needs sorting NOW.
I don’t have any belief though that it will.

There's been an ongoing governance review of football for quite some time. The FA, along with DCMS has instructed the EPL and EFL to come up with solutions to some of the major issues. We, the FSA, produced our own document and proposals (which I've mentioned on here numerous times) which the FA and Government stated that we had understood the situation far better than anyone, and that the EFL and EPL should look at it more closely. So far the response from both organisations has been positive.

So, yes it will change.
Let’s hope so SM as this is so way overdue.
Really is an appalling situation the way our biggest sport is run. The Administration of the way football is run needs a massive overhaul.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: redwine on July 03, 2020, 04:23:49 pm
I'm all in favour of one of the cup competitions cancelled. Provided its the  Champions League.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Campsall rover on July 03, 2020, 04:33:30 pm
I'm all in favour of one of the cup competitions cancelled. Provided its the  Champions League.
That’s not happening.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on July 03, 2020, 07:13:20 pm
I'm all in favour of one of the cup competitions cancelled. Provided its the  Champions League.

A cup shouldn't need to have to be cancelled. All it takes is to remove the obligation for EPL clubs to participate if they don't want to. That way those clubs who do still want to to participate in that cup if they want to still can and don't have that option denied just because of the EPL.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: DonnyBazR0ver on July 03, 2020, 07:52:46 pm
We're moving off track here.

We have known for years and through experience, the financing of football can be a murky world and is ripe for exploitation and the use of illegal practices including money laundering.

It appears, particularly with overseas buyers, being able to perform an adequate Director's test can be virtually impossible without sufficient resources to conduct financial forensics on overseas companies and officers.

For example, the Newcastle takeover is taking an age to complete due to ongoing investigations into possible illegal activity of one of the major buyers. Yet, you get the feeling the EPL are trying to sweep these issues under the carpet to allow the takeover to go through, cos it means 'Loads more money' will come into the Premier League either directly or indirectly.

The Wigan takeover appears to be a farce and does indeed uphold the fact the current tests are wholly inadequate.

But how many more clubs will become victims before new rules/tests come into force.

Unfortunately, even with the Covid crisis, greed will be the major driver over clubs long term welfare with fans even further down the line.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Dagenham Rover on July 03, 2020, 08:14:21 pm
I'm all in favour of one of the cup competitions cancelled. Provided its the  Champions League.

A cup shouldn't need to have to be cancelled. All it takes is to remove the obligation for EPL clubs to participate if they don't want to. That way those clubs who do still want to to participate in that cup if they want to still can and don't have that option denied just because of the EPL.

Crikey Glyn I agree with you :)
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Alan Southstand on July 04, 2020, 08:13:11 am
SM:

Quote
I'm not sure where you're coming from with some of that. But, the government did tell the EPL that one of the conditions for Project Restart was that they must help out the smaller clubs further down the pyramid. We wait to see what that is, but for some clubs that's the lifeline they need. I'm sure the EPL will push to have one of the cup competitions cancelled as part of that conversation, but that's all to be negotiated yet, so it might not happen.

I understand there was an interview with an EPL official recently (I’m not sure on what programme), who was asked about this very topic and his reply was that, as yet, they have had no request from the EFL for any sort of financial help.

I sincerely hope no-one is holding their breath waiting for this to happen anytime soon!
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: swintonrover on July 04, 2020, 09:04:18 am
The EFL admitted there were irregularities regarding large betting rings in the Philippines betting on Wigan to go down, and the ownership changed hands to ensure the points deduction. If Wigan get deducted points, that makes the EFL complicit in major fraud, and then there will be real repercussions.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: big fat yorkshire pudding on July 04, 2020, 09:06:57 am
But If they don't they breach their own rules. It's a big mess.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: BradwellRover on July 04, 2020, 10:41:22 am
It’s strikes me that it’s almost impossible to do proper due diligence on the majority of potential owners due to their nationality, the often opaque relationships, and the maze of companies involved.

As a result I’d almost forget ‘fit and proper’ tests, beyond a check on convictions and instead focus on means. So do the due diligence on a business plan for the club, that clearly identifies the cash injections required for three years. Test this against historical performance for validity.  If you are satisfied that the plan is reasonable then get the owner to sign an agreement that they will deliver within the budgets of the plan or the EFL has step in rights to run and sell the club.  Then to ensure they have the means, require them to deposit an amount equal to two years of the budget subsidy identified in the business plan in to an escrow account held by the EFL, which needs to be topped up to two years at the start of every season.  If the owner breaks the budget parameters it’s a breach of terms and the EFL use the budget to run the club until sale, at which point the balance in the account, plus proceeds of sale go back to the owner (minus EFL costs). To make this happen the EFL
would need quarterly accounts submitted for analysis.

Whilst this sounds fairly complicated, all of the above terms form part of most decent sized  corporate finance deals and it could be delivered by a fairly small team given the small number of clubs (compared to a finance portfolio).

Just my thoughts anyway...

Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on July 04, 2020, 10:49:02 am
The EFL admitted there were irregularities regarding large betting rings in the Philippines betting on Wigan to go down, and the ownership changed hands to ensure the points deduction. If Wigan get deducted points, that makes the EFL complicit in major fraud, and then there will be real repercussions.

The EFL can only be complicit if they were conspiring with the fraudsters. Are you suggesting they were??
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: silent majority on July 04, 2020, 11:25:35 am
SM:

Quote
I'm not sure where you're coming from with some of that. But, the government did tell the EPL that one of the conditions for Project Restart was that they must help out the smaller clubs further down the pyramid. We wait to see what that is, but for some clubs that's the lifeline they need. I'm sure the EPL will push to have one of the cup competitions cancelled as part of that conversation, but that's all to be negotiated yet, so it might not happen.

I understand there was an interview with an EPL official recently (I’m not sure on what programme), who was asked about this very topic and his reply was that, as yet, they have had no request from the EFL for any sort of financial help.

I sincerely hope no-one is holding their breath waiting for this to happen anytime soon!

I think your EPL spokesperson was being a little disingenuous.

I understand Rick Parry himself is dealing with this, and talks should bear fruit.

Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: DonnyBazR0ver on July 04, 2020, 11:35:40 am
It’s strikes me that it’s almost impossible to do proper due diligence on the majority of potential owners due to their nationality, the often opaque relationships, and the maze of companies involved.

As a result I’d almost forget ‘fit and proper’ tests, beyond a check on convictions and instead focus on means. So do the due diligence on a business plan for the club, that clearly identifies the cash injections required for three years. Test this against historical performance for validity.  If you are satisfied that the plan is reasonable then get the owner to sign an agreement that they will deliver within the budgets of the plan or the EFL has step in rights to run and sell the club.  Then to ensure they have the means, require them to deposit an amount equal to two years of the budget subsidy identified in the business plan in to an escrow account held by the EFL, which needs to be topped up to two years at the start of every season.  If the owner breaks the budget parameters it’s a breach of terms and the EFL use the budget to run the club until sale, at which point the balance in the account, plus proceeds of sale go back to the owner (minus EFL costs). To make this happen the EFL
would need quarterly accounts submitted for analysis.

Whilst this sounds fairly complicated, all of the above terms form part of most decent sized  corporate finance deals and it could be delivered by a fairly small team given the small number of clubs (compared to a finance portfolio).

Just my thoughts anyway...



Excellent post.

The thing is, if these reviews result in tighter controls and governance by closing the loopholes, English football will become less attractive for the criminals and speculators, which I'm not sure the EPL, EFL and FA are ready to face up to knowing there will be less money swimming around for everyone to skim off.

Clubs having to live within their means will be a frightening thought for many who have profited in recent years. However, for those of us who love the game and our clubs, this clean up cannot come too soon.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Campsall rover on July 04, 2020, 12:02:41 pm
It’s strikes me that it’s almost impossible to do proper due diligence on the majority of potential owners due to their nationality, the often opaque relationships, and the maze of companies involved.

As a result I’d almost forget ‘fit and proper’ tests, beyond a check on convictions and instead focus on means. So do the due diligence on a business plan for the club, that clearly identifies the cash injections required for three years. Test this against historical performance for validity.  If you are satisfied that the plan is reasonable then get the owner to sign an agreement that they will deliver within the budgets of the plan or the EFL has step in rights to run and sell the club.  Then to ensure they have the means, require them to deposit an amount equal to two years of the budget subsidy identified in the business plan in to an escrow account held by the EFL, which needs to be topped up to two years at the start of every season.  If the owner breaks the budget parameters it’s a breach of terms and the EFL use the budget to run the club until sale, at which point the balance in the account, plus proceeds of sale go back to the owner (minus EFL costs). To make this happen the EFL
would need quarterly accounts submitted for analysis.

Whilst this sounds fairly complicated, all of the above terms form part of most decent sized  corporate finance deals and it could be delivered by a fairly small team given the small number of clubs (compared to a finance portfolio).

Just my thoughts anyway...
Sounds like a bit of common sense to me.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: RoversAlias on July 04, 2020, 01:22:21 pm
SM:

Quote
I'm not sure where you're coming from with some of that. But, the government did tell the EPL that one of the conditions for Project Restart was that they must help out the smaller clubs further down the pyramid. We wait to see what that is, but for some clubs that's the lifeline they need. I'm sure the EPL will push to have one of the cup competitions cancelled as part of that conversation, but that's all to be negotiated yet, so it might not happen.

I understand there was an interview with an EPL official recently (I’m not sure on what programme), who was asked about this very topic and his reply was that, as yet, they have had no request from the EFL for any sort of financial help.

I sincerely hope no-one is holding their breath waiting for this to happen anytime soon!

I think your EPL spokesperson was being a little disingenuous.

I understand Rick Parry himself is dealing with this, and talks should bear fruit.



It wasn't an EFL spokesperson and it wasn't just some random remark Alan has read, it was from Julian Knight, chair of the DCMS Committee and the info had come from none other than the man in charge of the Premier League.

"We know that 10 to 15 clubs could find themselves in the same position. (On Monday) the DCMS Committee sought clarification from (Premier League chief executive) Richard Masters on what action it was taking to provide extra money for clubs at risk - he told us that the Football League hadn't asked for extra funding and the Premier League hadn't provided it.

"That's a situation that has to change."
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Chris Black come back on July 04, 2020, 02:08:52 pm
What a strange tale this is:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jul/02/story-of-how-wigan-collapsed-into-administration-au-yeung-investigation

Looks like football was not the point of the takeover!

What an absolute disgrace.
A club with such a proud history, trashed by some faceless foreign 'money-men' in very dubious circumstances.
Lessons never seem to be learned do they?



Don’t get me wrong, this should not have happened to them - but they don’t really have a proud history. The club wasn’t formed until 1932 and did not make it into league football until 1978. They were shit and regularly fighting for wooden spoon with us for years and years until Whelan put steroids into them. Good on him for doing that, but without him they would likely still be in League Two looking forward to playing Barrow next season. 
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: swintonrover on July 04, 2020, 02:09:48 pm
The EFL admitted there were irregularities regarding large betting rings in the Philippines betting on Wigan to go down, and the ownership changed hands to ensure the points deduction. If Wigan get deducted points, that makes the EFL complicit in major fraud, and then there will be real repercussions.

The EFL can only be complicit if they were conspiring with the fraudsters. Are you suggesting they were??

They were aware of irregular betting patterns and let the takeover happen anyway. It's gross negligence at best.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: silent majority on July 04, 2020, 03:57:16 pm
SM:

Quote
I'm not sure where you're coming from with some of that. But, the government did tell the EPL that one of the conditions for Project Restart was that they must help out the smaller clubs further down the pyramid. We wait to see what that is, but for some clubs that's the lifeline they need. I'm sure the EPL will push to have one of the cup competitions cancelled as part of that conversation, but that's all to be negotiated yet, so it might not happen.

I understand there was an interview with an EPL official recently (I’m not sure on what programme), who was asked about this very topic and his reply was that, as yet, they have had no request from the EFL for any sort of financial help.

I sincerely hope no-one is holding their breath waiting for this to happen anytime soon!

I think your EPL spokesperson was being a little disingenuous.

I understand Rick Parry himself is dealing with this, and talks should bear fruit.



It wasn't an EFL spokesperson and it wasn't just some random remark Alan has read, it was from Julian Knight, chair of the DCMS Committee and the info had come from none other than the man in charge of the Premier League.

"We know that 10 to 15 clubs could find themselves in the same position. (On Monday) the DCMS Committee sought clarification from (Premier League chief executive) Richard Masters on what action it was taking to provide extra money for clubs at risk - he told us that the Football League hadn't asked for extra funding and the Premier League hadn't provided it.

"That's a situation that has to change."

I'm not really bothered where the response came from, I'm well aware of the current situation (we have a weekly update from the EFL and we have fan owned clubs in the EFL) and that response from Richard Masters is at best misleading and at worst dishonourable.

Part of the governments approval and support for Project Restart included the agreement to help lower league clubs, which is obviously why DCMS were asking. At this weeks meet of EFL clubs they were told Richard Parry was dealing with this directly and that movement was expected within the next couple of weeks.

Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: selby on July 04, 2020, 04:54:17 pm
  Stand by for disappointment SM. Parry might have carried some weight when he was at the EPL  but now he is a nobody backed by nobodies, If the government do not insist on the EPL doing something to aid the smaller clubs it will be at best a token amount and at it's  worst will not be an amount that makes any significant difference and will be balanced out with conditions to the EPL's advantage in future.
   Not to mention the level of distribution the bigger championship sides will try to snaffle up with the threat of EPL 2 being thrown about.
  The original threat was the pending loss of many small clubs, which apart from the manufactured likely loss of Wigan has not yet manifested itself. And the confidence of the EPL to minimise any help has grown over the intervening period. The absolute woeful response to the emergency has now lost all momentum from the survival of clubs and turned to when the next season will be restarted.
  Once that decision is made and clubs start to ready themselves at the lower levels they will once again be left to fend for themselves and become a side show. The odd club that might fall by the wayside will get a couple of days how sad headlines and local news coverage, while the main concentration will be who will be the next manager of Tottering and who will be the next superstar multi million pound signings for the top four or five EPL teams Real Madrid and Barca.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: RoversAlias on July 04, 2020, 05:09:31 pm
SM:

Quote
I'm not sure where you're coming from with some of that. But, the government did tell the EPL that one of the conditions for Project Restart was that they must help out the smaller clubs further down the pyramid. We wait to see what that is, but for some clubs that's the lifeline they need. I'm sure the EPL will push to have one of the cup competitions cancelled as part of that conversation, but that's all to be negotiated yet, so it might not happen.

I understand there was an interview with an EPL official recently (I’m not sure on what programme), who was asked about this very topic and his reply was that, as yet, they have had no request from the EFL for any sort of financial help.

I sincerely hope no-one is holding their breath waiting for this to happen anytime soon!

I think your EPL spokesperson was being a little disingenuous.

I understand Rick Parry himself is dealing with this, and talks should bear fruit.



It wasn't an EFL spokesperson and it wasn't just some random remark Alan has read, it was from Julian Knight, chair of the DCMS Committee and the info had come from none other than the man in charge of the Premier League.

"We know that 10 to 15 clubs could find themselves in the same position. (On Monday) the DCMS Committee sought clarification from (Premier League chief executive) Richard Masters on what action it was taking to provide extra money for clubs at risk - he told us that the Football League hadn't asked for extra funding and the Premier League hadn't provided it.

"That's a situation that has to change."

I'm not really bothered where the response came from, I'm well aware of the current situation (we have a weekly update from the EFL and we have fan owned clubs in the EFL) and that response from Richard Masters is at best misleading and at worst dishonourable.

Part of the governments approval and support for Project Restart included the agreement to help lower league clubs, which is obviously why DCMS were asking. At this weeks meet of EFL clubs they were told Richard Parry was dealing with this directly and that movement was expected within the next couple of weeks.



That's fine SM and if you have good reason to believe differently then I hope it all works out (although I think Selby touches on a good point - it has now been nearly four months since all this started and tangible help for EFL clubs hasn't materialised) but I felt it fair to note that Alan didn't pluck this quote from nowhere nor was it some random spokesperson who said that there has been no request for help, since that line came from Richard Masters himself who is surely the most important figure in any scenario where the Premier League helps the EFL.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: silent majority on July 04, 2020, 05:37:22 pm
RA, there's always a reason and an answer to most of these issues that selby raises. Whilst I appreciate his contribution the approach he takes is always spoken about in language I can't always follow, i.e 'a nobody supported by nobodies' doesn't really hit the mark for me.

The reason it has taken time (one of a few) is that Project Restart was never guaranteed to happen, and furthermore it's not guaranteed to complete. That, and a renegotiation with Sky and other broadcasters, had to take place so as to complete the financial transactions and the agreement they reached between those parties. I'm not sure how the EPL could commit when they themselves hadn't seen the light at the end of the tunnel either. And in addition, there was also an agreement for the EFL season to conclude one way or the other, and broadcast income was also part of that.

Furthermore, the EFL also have a new CEO, Shaun Harvey's replacement, and he has only just taken charge. There are also numerous other issues that the EFL are dealing with, and fighting with the EPL is only one part of what they have to achieve. Direct government help is also being asked for, and help from HMRC is part of that. Fixing a start date for next season, when and how to allow crowds into stadiums, agreeing on salary caps and squad sizes, fighting off the PFA etc. All these things take time and energy.

Whilst it wasn't a random quote I think I'd either seen or heard it from some other source but dismissed it as mere obfuscation, which it probably is. As for RM being the main man, I can assure you it's not him. He's far too new at the job, there are a few others who wield much more power in the background than he does.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: silent majority on July 04, 2020, 05:43:25 pm
  Stand by for disappointment SM. Parry might have carried some weight when he was at the EPL  but now he is a nobody backed by nobodies, If the government do not insist on the EPL doing something to aid the smaller clubs it will be at best a token amount and at it's  worst will not be an amount that makes any significant difference and will be balanced out with conditions to the EPL's advantage in future.
   Not to mention the level of distribution the bigger championship sides will try to snaffle up with the threat of EPL 2 being thrown about.
  The original threat was the pending loss of many small clubs, which apart from the manufactured likely loss of Wigan has not yet manifested itself. And the confidence of the EPL to minimise any help has grown over the intervening period. The absolute woeful response to the emergency has now lost all momentum from the survival of clubs and turned to when the next season will be restarted.
  Once that decision is made and clubs start to ready themselves at the lower levels they will once again be left to fend for themselves and become a side show. The odd club that might fall by the wayside will get a couple of days how sad headlines and local news coverage, while the main concentration will be who will be the next manager of Tottering and who will be the next superstar multi million pound signings for the top four or five EPL teams Real Madrid and Barca.

selby, I've already said that the government made assistance of the smaller clubs one of the conditions for allowing the EPL to conclude. This Covid-19 crisis is a godsend for football clubs in some respects, its finally given them the motivation to do the things they've had on their wish list for a number of years. I expect the EFL to follow up on that.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: selby on July 04, 2020, 07:09:25 pm
SM, I hope you are right.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: albie on July 05, 2020, 03:57:25 pm
Article in the FT (paywalled) saying that this is an attempt to relegate Wigan (with the points deducted), in order to win a bet placed in the Phillipines!

There must be a significant sum involved.

This is the modern football industry, vulnerable to predatory actions from across the world.
The rules regarding ownership look very dated in relation to the way money moves across the global economy these days.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Campsall rover on July 05, 2020, 04:18:06 pm
Looks like the most dodgy Administration of all time.
Hope someone is going to investigate this thoroughly.
Oh silly me the EFL are running the show.

This needs government involvement and the criminal investigators to find out what has really taken place with Wigan.
I just can’t see that this is related to Covid 19

Or does my suspicious mind making me add 2+2 & =5 
What does everyone else think?
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: silent majority on July 05, 2020, 04:32:00 pm
Looks like the most dodgy Administration of all time.
Hope someone is going to investigate this thoroughly.
Oh silly me the EFL are running the show.

This needs government involvement and the criminal investigators to find out what has really taken place with Wigan.
I just can’t see that this is related to Covid 19

Or does my suspicious mind making me add 2+2 & =5 
What does everyone else think?


I don't think anybody really knows at the moment, we'll have to wait and see.

However its nowhere near the end of the world for Wigan, they are a very stable club, have no debts, and have tremendous income (normally) as they share the stadium with Wigan RL. It's not going to be long before somebody steps in for them.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Campsall rover on July 05, 2020, 04:42:10 pm
Looks like the most dodgy Administration of all time.
Hope someone is going to investigate this thoroughly.
Oh silly me the EFL are running the show.

This needs government involvement and the criminal investigators to find out what has really taken place with Wigan.
I just can’t see that this is related to Covid 19

Or does my suspicious mind making me add 2+2 & =5 
What does everyone else think?


I don't think anybody really knows at the moment, we'll have to wait and see.

However its nowhere near the end of the world for Wigan, they are a very stable club, have no debts, and have tremendous income (normally) as they share the stadium with Wigan RL. It's not going to be long before somebody steps in for them.
So if that’s the case, and is, as i thought also, why have they gone into Administration?
Makes it look even more suspicious.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: DonnyBazR0ver on July 05, 2020, 04:49:32 pm
Dave Whelan said he might have to step in again and help where he can.

The Administrator has already said they're investigating what happened and any foul play involved. How any overseas crims can be brought to justice is anyone's guess.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on July 05, 2020, 06:07:40 pm
The EFL admitted there were irregularities regarding large betting rings in the Philippines betting on Wigan to go down, and the ownership changed hands to ensure the points deduction. If Wigan get deducted points, that makes the EFL complicit in major fraud, and then there will be real repercussions.

The EFL can only be complicit if they were conspiring with the fraudsters. Are you suggesting they were??

They were aware of irregular betting patterns and let the takeover happen anyway. It's gross negligence at best.

And if they stopped a potentially club-saving takeover because of 'irregular betting patterns' without any evidence of a connection to the new owners, what would you call it then?

If a betting scam is at the heart of all this, that'll be enough for me to hope Wigan stay up and screw the bas**rds. And on top of that, that the club is confiscated from the new owners so they don't get a penny back when the club is sold to new owners.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: DonnyBazR0ver on July 05, 2020, 07:45:41 pm
Not sure if everyone has understood the chain of events here, although the timing of things are somewhat contentious and are under investigation.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53261368

The new owners NLF have put the club into administration, having instructed their lawyers to confirm they will not put another penny into the club.

This comes within days from the date they took ownership from IEC who had been in control for some time. This raised concerns and only then have irregular betting patterns been reported.

The question is whether IEC knew and/or planned the handover and the subsequent administration whilst masterminding the betting on relegation as a result of the impending points deduction.

I don't think the EFL were aware of any betting irregularities before the  transfer of ownership or when the club was put into administration. The question for the EFL is whether they carried out sufficient checks on the new owners, proof of funding and business plan etc.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Frankie Rennie on July 05, 2020, 11:34:32 pm
Did Dave Whelan do any DD on IEC when he sold to them, surely he was the one who should have and much as I detest the EFL, if the buying company proved to have the necessary resources to fund the club how could they be turned down as owners. There’s obviously something more behind the scenes here but proving a betting scam is I think going to be a difficult mission. Besides that, these Asian betting rings aren’t stupid and know full well the penalty for admin is 12 points deduction so surely they won’t fall for that? Much to come out I think but the number of unfit owners seems to be increasing and so far the EFL have proved not to be up to the job of identifying them.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Muttley on July 06, 2020, 06:52:50 am
If it was a betting scam, why spunk £41m on a club like Wigan instead of a club in L1 or 2 who could be bought for substantially less, thereby reducing the possible losses if the bet didn't come off?
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on July 06, 2020, 09:13:54 am
If it was a betting scam, why spunk £41m on a club like Wigan instead of a club in L1 or 2 who could be bought for substantially less, thereby reducing the possible losses if the bet didn't come off?

For a start it has to be a club in the right league position to be able to pull off the scam, and that is available to purchase. Also, you've a better chance of recouping your outlay when selling on a club in a decent financial position than one that has increasing debts.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: since-1969 on July 06, 2020, 12:26:43 pm
RA, there's always a reason and an answer to most of these issues that selby raises. Whilst I appreciate his contribution the approach he takes is always spoken about in language I can't always follow, i.e 'a nobody supported by nobodies' doesn't really hit the mark for me.

The reason it has taken time (one of a few) is that Project Restart was never guaranteed to happen, and furthermore it's not guaranteed to complete. That, and a renegotiation with Sky and other broadcasters, had to take place so as to complete the financial transactions and the agreement they reached between those parties. I'm not sure how the EPL could commit when they themselves hadn't seen the light at the end of the tunnel either. And in addition, there was also an agreement for the EFL season to conclude one way or the other, and broadcast income was also part of that.

Furthermore, the EFL also have a new CEO, Shaun Harvey's replacement, and he has only just taken charge. There are also numerous other issues that the EFL are dealing with, and fighting with the EPL is only one part of what they have to achieve. Direct government help is also being asked for, and help from HMRC is part of that. Fixing a start date for next season, when and how to allow crowds into stadiums, agreeing on salary caps and squad sizes, fighting off the PFA etc. All these things take time and energy.

Whilst it wasn't a random quote I think I'd either seen or heard it from some other source but dismissed it as mere obfuscation, which it probably is. As for RM being the main man, I can assure you it's not him. He's far too new at the job, there are a few others who wield much more power in the background than he does.
Nothing but speculation and conjecture!! The Efl if guilty of anything is not having the balls at the formation of the Premier League not to seek more money for the L1 / L2 clubs to prevent them from being left bereft of capital in hard times when they the PL are allowed to flaunt FairPlay rules and get away with paying the minimum trickled down fee the could get away . COVID-19 is the death nail for every club if fans can’t return even for 3/6 months . Finances in place in the PL will tide them over but not everyone else.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: silent majority on July 06, 2020, 01:35:19 pm
RA, there's always a reason and an answer to most of these issues that selby raises. Whilst I appreciate his contribution the approach he takes is always spoken about in language I can't always follow, i.e 'a nobody supported by nobodies' doesn't really hit the mark for me.

The reason it has taken time (one of a few) is that Project Restart was never guaranteed to happen, and furthermore it's not guaranteed to complete. That, and a renegotiation with Sky and other broadcasters, had to take place so as to complete the financial transactions and the agreement they reached between those parties. I'm not sure how the EPL could commit when they themselves hadn't seen the light at the end of the tunnel either. And in addition, there was also an agreement for the EFL season to conclude one way or the other, and broadcast income was also part of that.

Furthermore, the EFL also have a new CEO, Shaun Harvey's replacement, and he has only just taken charge. There are also numerous other issues that the EFL are dealing with, and fighting with the EPL is only one part of what they have to achieve. Direct government help is also being asked for, and help from HMRC is part of that. Fixing a start date for next season, when and how to allow crowds into stadiums, agreeing on salary caps and squad sizes, fighting off the PFA etc. All these things take time and energy.

Whilst it wasn't a random quote I think I'd either seen or heard it from some other source but dismissed it as mere obfuscation, which it probably is. As for RM being the main man, I can assure you it's not him. He's far too new at the job, there are a few others who wield much more power in the background than he does.
Nothing but speculation and conjecture!! The Efl if guilty of anything is not having the balls at the formation of the Premier League not to seek more money for the L1 / L2 clubs to prevent them from being left bereft of capital in hard times when they the PL are allowed to flaunt FairPlay rules and get away with paying the minimum trickled down fee the could get away . COVID-19 is the death nail for every club if fans can’t return even for 3/6 months . Finances in place in the PL will tide them over but not everyone else.

What are you talking about?
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: DonnyBazR0ver on July 06, 2020, 09:43:38 pm
Did Dave Whelan do any DD on IEC when he sold to them, surely he was the one who should have and much as I detest the EFL, if the buying company proved to have the necessary resources to fund the club how could they be turned down as owners. There’s obviously something more behind the scenes here but proving a betting scam is I think going to be a difficult mission. Besides that, these Asian betting rings aren’t stupid and know full well the penalty for admin is 12 points deduction so surely they won’t fall for that? Much to come out I think but the number of unfit owners seems to be increasing and so far the EFL have proved not to be up to the job of identifying them.

That's a good question. How much DD should the seller do? This is as much a moral question as well.

Does Mike Ashley care, as long as he gets his money? You could ask the same question of many a takeover to foreign ownership.

From what I gather, DW had no reason to doubt the intentions of the new owners, although since they took over they have largely remained faceless. This looks like an opportunistic and desperate way out in the face of mounting losses exacerbated by the Covid crisis.

It's probably likely that DM sold Wigan as a Premiership club on a sabitical and perhaps the new owners realised they've been sold a dud.

You wonder whether McCabe did full due diligence at Sheff Utd when trying to attact Arab millions, before realising he was caught with his pants down and forced to sell all his interests in the club to the Arab. Things look good for the Blades at the moment but you wonder if they get relegated at some point, the Arab will call in his dues!
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: albie on July 07, 2020, 01:18:39 pm
Comment from 200% on the fiasco at Atletico Wigano;
https://twohundredpercent.net/wigan-athletic-plot-thickens/

How to stop bad faith actors abusing any loophole they find in the football rules to game the system?
Difficult to see how the EFL will come to an agreement on this, when any changes might restrict the actions of some current members.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: drfchound on July 07, 2020, 04:56:34 pm
I’ve just seen on the BBC Sport website that Wigan are to appeal against the 12 point points deduction.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: albie on July 09, 2020, 02:45:15 pm
Latest from David Conn;
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2020/jul/08/wigan-debacle-exposes-unsustainable-excesses-of-the-football-league

The trouble is the people with the power to make changes are the least likely folk to want to see change.
The EFL and the pyramid below are of no interest to the movers and shakers in the Prem.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: rover-n-out on July 09, 2020, 04:04:03 pm
If the EPL don't give two hoots for the EFL leagues, and let clubs go to the wall, how do they expect to find new young talent coming through to plunder from lower league clubs.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: albie on July 09, 2020, 04:23:07 pm
Seems that the fella who bought Wigan was a bankrupt in 2004 in Hong Kong;
https://twitter.com/dylanharris/status/1280205192995233799/photo/1

This is NOT against the rules if the bankruptcy was discharged, but did the EFL know about this before he took over?
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Frankie Rennie on July 09, 2020, 04:28:39 pm
Looks like the most dodgy Administration of all time.
Hope someone is going to investigate this thoroughly.
Oh silly me the EFL are running the show.

This needs government involvement and the criminal investigators to find out what has really taken place with Wigan.
I just can’t see that this is related to Covid 19

Or does my suspicious mind making me add 2+2 & =5 
What does everyone else think?


I don't think anybody really knows at the moment, we'll have to wait and see.

However its nowhere near the end of the world for Wigan, they are a very stable club, have no debts, and have tremendous income (normally) as they share the stadium with Wigan RL. It's not going to be long before somebody steps in for them.


I think if you check Silent you’ll find that Wigan is loss making which last year was about £6M. That said they are run better than most but like the majority of clubs outside the PL wouldn’t be solvent without a benefactor.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: Frankie Rennie on July 09, 2020, 04:43:56 pm
Did Dave Whelan do any DD on IEC when he sold to them, surely he was the one who should have and much as I detest the EFL, if the buying company proved to have the necessary resources to fund the club how could they be turned down as owners. There’s obviously something more behind the scenes here but proving a betting scam is I think going to be a difficult mission. Besides that, these Asian betting rings aren’t stupid and know full well the penalty for admin is 12 points deduction so surely they won’t fall for that? Much to come out I think but the number of unfit owners seems to be increasing and so far the EFL have proved not to be up to the job of identifying them.

That's a good question. How much DD should the seller do? This is as much a moral question as well.

Does Mike Ashley care, as long as he gets his money? You could ask the same question of many a takeover to foreign ownership.

From what I gather, DW had no reason to doubt the intentions of the new owners, although since they took over they have largely remained faceless. This looks like an opportunistic and desperate way out in the face of mounting losses exacerbated by the Covid crisis.

It's probably likely that DM sold Wigan as a Premiership club on a sabitical and perhaps the new owners realised they've been sold a dud.

You wonder whether McCabe did full due diligence at Sheff Utd when trying to attact Arab millions, before realising he was caught with his pants down and forced to sell all his interests in the club to the Arab. Things look good for the Blades at the moment but you wonder if they get relegated at some point, the Arab will call in his dues!

You’d like to think someone as loyal as DW was to Wigan would do due diligence on the buyer because he’s still a fan and I’m sure he did but if the buying company is solvent, can meet the buying price and can prove to the EFL that they have the resources to run the club, how can they not be passed as fit and proper. The problem is that the owner just said that he wasn’t prepared to spend that money anymore, just as Anderson did with Wanderers. I’m not sure how the EFL can be blamed in either situation on that front.

Since both Anderson and Choi have had financial issues in the past and in Anderson’s case been Banned previously by the EFL for 6 years, maybe that should preclude ownership. It’s a difficult one really because when any business is obviously insolvent it makes sense not to throw good money after bad. Wigan’s owners no longer wanted to fund the club but you’d have thought they would try to sell it first rather than go into admin so you do suspect there is another reason somewhere. Let’s just hope the administrators can find a buyer and keep Wigan alive.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: silent majority on July 09, 2020, 05:56:15 pm
Looks like the most dodgy Administration of all time.
Hope someone is going to investigate this thoroughly.
Oh silly me the EFL are running the show.

This needs government involvement and the criminal investigators to find out what has really taken place with Wigan.
I just can’t see that this is related to Covid 19

Or does my suspicious mind making me add 2+2 & =5 
What does everyone else think?


I don't think anybody really knows at the moment, we'll have to wait and see.

However its nowhere near the end of the world for Wigan, they are a very stable club, have no debts, and have tremendous income (normally) as they share the stadium with Wigan RL. It's not going to be long before somebody steps in for them.


I think if you check Silent you’ll find that Wigan is loss making which last year was about £6M. That said they are run better than most but like the majority of clubs outside the PL wouldn’t be solvent without a benefactor.

Apologies, yes you're right.

The documents I've seen in the last few days show a very unrealistic expectation of earnings from AYWK and realising this decided on administration as a quick solution. So far they haven't paid the balance either and therefore the sale would automatically default under EFL regs.

It also appears that the stadium is not included in the administration.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: silent majority on July 09, 2020, 06:00:25 pm
Seems that the fella who bought Wigan was a bankrupt in 2004 in Hong Kong;
https://twitter.com/dylanharris/status/1280205192995233799/photo/1

This is NOT against the rules if the bankruptcy was discharged, but did the EFL know about this before he took over?

I would suggest this company, and the terribly complicated group structure that they sit in, would be really difficult for the EFL and the Owners and Directors Test to be able to detect any determined effort to mislead. It was only after the sale, which is complicated in its own right, that this character emerged.
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: since-1969 on July 09, 2020, 06:04:24 pm
What was the reason for allowing the club to go bust if these owners were genuinely football investors or is there another plan to be played out there. 
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: albie on July 09, 2020, 06:23:41 pm
SM,

Yes, that is certainly true.

It does flag up the main issue here.
This means devising a system and rules which are consistent with the law, but which will guard against those looking to exploit loopholes in the football regs to seek profit.

Wigan will survive, bought out by new owners.
If they are relegated under the 12 point deduction, a rule brought in to prevent evasion of financial responsibilities will have been used to enable a betting scam elsewhere.

The basic question is one of conflicting interests.
How are the "Sporting integrity" criteria to sit alongside other commercial interests of new owners?

A prospective owner can demonstrate funding is in place (often from other sources within the same group), obtain control, then transfer those resources out of the company to another project.

As suggested by others, a bond equivalent to 5 years running costs, lodged with the EFL might be one solution.

I hope the EFL find a way to manage this risk.
Do you think the EFL is capable of preventing a similar situation arising again?
Title: Re: Wigan
Post by: silent majority on July 09, 2020, 06:38:20 pm
albie,

To answer your last question the EFL have, on a few occasions, publicly stated that their aim, after Bury, was to ensure that changes made would stop clubs going out of business. It's only a couple of years ago that they were patting themselves on the back for not having a single administration for quite a long time. That was absolutely correct, but in recent years we've seen a spate of issues.

They made this call earlier today;

https://thefsa.org.uk/news/efl-calls-for-comprehensive-reset-of-finance-following-wigan-crisis/

Our, the FSA, proposals for change within the game have been well received by everybody, and we proved that if our approach had been followed the Bury situation would never have happened and the administration would have been stopped in its tracks. Our proposals can be read here;

https://thefsa.org.uk/news/mps-back-fsa-ideas-on-football-governance-reform/

https://thefsa.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/FSA-Proposals-to-improve-football-regulation.pdf