Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: Metalmicky on December 04, 2020, 06:59:49 pm
-
Just putting it out there...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-55192375
-
I don’t expect that much will be made of this on here mate.
-
If he's guilty he wants the book throwing at him.
Of course this is a problem for Starmer, but it's hardly his making. Any more than Johnson is responsible for the actions of the senior Tory backbencher accused of rape.
-
Why is it a problem for starmer.? The Labour Party has suspended the mayor, and he is not an mp..
-
Sorry - my mistake, I thought Starmer was the leader of said party...
-
There should be a lot more over the anti Semite problem joining him.
-
Sorry - my mistake, I thought Starmer was the leader of said party...
And the party has suspended him.
You could argue it would be an issue for Starmer had the Labour Party not acted. But they did - that’s the point, so why does it become more of a problem for starmer.?
-
There should be a lot more over the anti Semite problem joining him.
Should MP’s arrested for Rape be suspended from their party
-
Sorry - my mistake, I thought Starmer was the leader of said party...
And the party has suspended him.
You could argue it would be an issue for Starmer had the Labour Party not acted. But they did - that’s the point, so why does it become more of a problem for starmer.?
So - if I understand you correctly.... something that is acted upon by the Labour Party is not a concern to the leader............... right
-
No you are completely missing the point..
It is an issue and a concern, obviously, but it is being dealt with..
Had it not been acted on, then there would be understandable pressure on starmer to do something about it..
You understand that don’t you.?
Now, remind me what Johnson and his party did in response to Cummings’ and Patel’s wrongdoing.?
-
Your tone tells me that I am not missing the point at all... your patronising and condescending tone shows me that you are irked. Let's hope that KS shows himself and some leadership...... FTR I am on neither parties side to any great extent; however this is a news story - on most news outlets - even the Mirror, so, it deserves the attention of the party leader surely. There are plenty of other threads whipping Boris and the Tories, so why bring it up those issues on here?
-
Patronising and condescending.?
Pull the other one..
Your OP implies Starmer has problems within Labour, my response is that Labour is dealing with it, and that the problem would be bigger if they hadn’t taken action - which is why the reference to Johnson was included as the Tories haven’t acted on their problems.
-
OK fella........ I really can't be arsed wasting my time squabbling with you...
-
What should Starmer have done differently then?
-
Just because Starmer has acted on the issue doesn't mean there is no longer an issue. As far as I can see Metalmicky has said nothing else other than that!
-
Arrested on suspicion, found guily by the anti-laborites
-
Every leader has problems at least this big to deal with. This is tomorrow's chip paper level of stuff by comparison to what most leaders get faced with.
-
Arrested on suspicion, found guily by the anti-laborites
But isn’t that like the Tory MP arrested on suspicion of rape but found guilty by the anti.Tories.
-
butnot suspended ............... that one?
-
butnot suspended ............... that one?
But I wasn’t talking about the actions of the Parties, just matching up your comment about anti Labourites.
For balance of course.
-
Arrested on suspicion, found guily by the anti-laborites
TBF Syd..... it always seems that the "knowing" on here always profess things about Boris.. sometimes without any substance..... and yet you bring up an issue with KS and everyone's on the defensive. It gives an unbalance view of things IMO.
To be honest, I wished that more people had viewed/commented (and donated) to the Rob Burrow thread I started.
-
I see your point MM but johnson is out there when it comes to being offensive and not having a clue and because of it attracts more column inches, he has a rap sheet the length of the UK.
-
Not going to argue with that Syd...
-
Joe Anderson. Leader suspends major party figure alleged of wrong doing.
Robert Jenrick. Dominic Cummings - move along here, nothing to see...
-
.......and after that nice prime minister got all that mass testing organised for the people of Liverpool.
So ungrateful..
-
Joe Anderson. Leader suspends major party figure alleged of wrong doing.
Robert Jenrick. Dominic Cummings - move along here, nothing to see...
A little late but there maybe light shed on cummings yet Wilts
''Durham police have confirmed for the first time they are assessing a dossier from a former senior prosecutor that says Dominic Cummings should face charges over his account of his movements during lockdown''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/04/durham-police-dominic-cummings-nazir-ifzal-dossier
-
Are you called metal mickey because you find the tin foil hat your chapeau of choice?
Just asking.
-
Joe Anderson. Leader suspends major party figure alleged of wrong doing.
Robert Jenrick. Dominic Cummings - move along here, nothing to see...
Have either Jokerick or Cummings been arrested/charged with owt? - there may be ideas/blogs/suggestions/thoughts - but let's not hang folk because we suspect they might be witches... of either party.
-
butnot suspended ............... that one?
But I wasn’t talking about the actions of the Parties, just matching up your comment about anti Labourites.
For balance of course.
Who on here has said the Tory MP is guilty?
-
Joe Anderson. Leader suspends major party figure alleged of wrong doing.
Robert Jenrick. Dominic Cummings - move along here, nothing to see...
Have either Jokerick or Cummings been arrested/charged with owt? - there may be ideas/blogs/suggestions/thoughts - but let's not hang folk because we suspect they might be witches... of either party.
You appear to have missed the point of my post MM.
-
.......and after that nice prime minister got all that mass testing organised for the people of Liverpool.
So ungrateful..
Yes. And don't forget that nice PM even went on tv to personally thank him and say how well they had worked together too ..hmm
-
butnot suspended ............... that one?
But I wasn’t talking about the actions of the Parties, just matching up your comment about anti Labourites.
For balance of course.
Who on here has said the Tory MP is guilty?
Ha, I notice you didn’t ask Sydney who on here has found the Liverpool leader guilty.
Double standards?
-
.......and after that nice prime minister got all that mass testing organised for the people of Liverpool.
So ungrateful..
Yes. And don't forget that nice PM even went on tv to personally thank him and say how well they had worked together too ..hmm
Ah, so that makes it all ok then.
-
butnot suspended ............... that one?
But I wasn’t talking about the actions of the Parties, just matching up your comment about anti Labourites.
For balance of course.
Who on here has said the Tory MP is guilty?
Ha, I notice you didn’t ask Sydney who on here has found the Liverpool leader guilty.
Double standards?
I've had to travel back to find which post you were referring to. I hadn't seen it originally. And yes, you're right, Sydney was unfair to say anyone in here had said Anderson is guilty. And I see the context of your post now. Apologies for the misunderstanding. It's not double standards. It's simply reading your post in isolation, with it not being linked to the one it was responding to.
-
Fair enough BST, accepted.
-
At least KS gets some time to contemplate eh.... :blink:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-55201080
-
.......and after that nice prime minister got all that mass testing organised for the people of Liverpool.
So ungrateful..
Yes. And don't forget that nice PM even went on tv to personally thank him and say how well they had worked together too ..hmm
Ah, so that makes it all ok then.
Does it? Why is that then?
-
Bunga bunga continues apace, nice work if you can get it?
''Carrie Symonds' friend Nimco Ali given Home Office role without it being advertised
£350-a-day position as government adviser made via ‘direct appointment process’''
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/dec/05/carrie-symonds-close-friend-nimco-ali-given-350-a-day-government-role
-
For 2 days a month!!??
-
They like to work them hard, you know.
-
For 2 days a month!!??
£8400/year not bad eh, you remember her the one that refused to condemn the tank top bum boy comments, nice reward.
-
Seems KS is hitting more bumps in the road...... supporting the Government on the Brexit bill seems to have rattled a few cages among the Labour faithful - and (perhaps more importantly) not just in the traditional party dividing lines.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/31/labour-vote-tory-brexit-keir-starmer-deal
Before I get 'told off' by the wise men of the Forum, I'm just shoving it out there.... no particular political message here.
-
Starmer had been backed into a corner, by the SNP Lib Dems, DUP and the one Green mp, history tells us that the ERG’s words couldn’t be trusted, he had no option but to back the deal rather than risk a no deal brexit. The problem is the Momentum lot will use anything to bash him with rather than unite the Labour Party. The Tories were always going to gloat over it, it’s in their make up, there’s some right nutcases in the Commons on all sides
-
Any deal is better than no deal.
That is what people have continually said.
Isn’t Starmer just voting for the benefit of the Nation.
-
Starmer's doing the only thing he can, politically.
Brexit is done now. It's a mistake but it is done.
The Tories want to keep Brexit alive as a political fracture point. They want to be able to keep saying to the 25% of previous Lab supporters who support Brexit that Labour are still against them.
Labour has to neutralise Brexit. That is why Starmer told Lab MPs to vote for this deal. So that it minimises the effect of Johnson saying Lab is still against Brexit.
It's dirty and messy but it is politics.
The interesting thing is why Corbyn and McDonnell are making such a big song and dance about this. Almost as if they want to keep the Brexit argument going. Because if it does, Starmer is sunk. I suspect the Corbynistas would prefer that to a Starmer-led Labour victory in 2024.
-
Starmer's doing the only thing he can, politically.
Brexit is done now. It's a mistake but it is done.
The Tories want to keep Brexit alive as a political fracture point. They want to be able to keep saying to the 25% of previous Lab supporters who support Brexit that Labour are still against them.
Labour has to neutralise Brexit. That is why Starmer told Lab MPs to vote for this deal. So that it minimises the effect of Johnson saying Lab is still against Brexit.
It's dirty and messy but it is politics.
The interesting thing is why Corbyn and McDonnell are making such a big song and dance about this. Almost as if they want to keep the Brexit argument going. Because if it does, Starmer is sunk. I suspect the Corbynistas would prefer that to a Starmer-led Labour victory in 2024.
Which is baffling, a far left group preferring a far right group in Government
-
Starmer's doing the only thing he can, politically.
Brexit is done now. It's a mistake but it is done.
The Tories want to keep Brexit alive as a political fracture point. They want to be able to keep saying to the 25% of previous Lab supporters who support Brexit that Labour are still against them.
Labour has to neutralise Brexit. That is why Starmer told Lab MPs to vote for this deal. So that it minimises the effect of Johnson saying Lab is still against Brexit.
It's dirty and messy but it is politics.
The interesting thing is why Corbyn and McDonnell are making such a big song and dance about this. Almost as if they want to keep the Brexit argument going. Because if it does, Starmer is sunk. I suspect the Corbynistas would prefer that to a Starmer-led Labour victory in 2024.
Which is baffling, a far left group preferring a far right group in Government
Nothing logical about the cult of Corbyn mate
-
Err Hasn't the senior Tory party member had all charges dropped against him? I suppose much to the annoyance of some posters on here.
He has been rubbing it in as well in the last few days getting lot's of exposure again, which will be even more annoying to you like a pesky fly on the end of your nose, bloody brilliant another loss.
-
Err Hasn't the senior Tory party member had all charges dropped against him? I suppose much to the annoyance of some posters on here.
He has been rubbing it in as well in the last few days getting lot's of exposure again, which will be even more annoying to you like a pesky fly on the end of your nose, bloody brilliant another loss.
You will be telling us next that Priti Awful has never bullied anyone in her life.
-
Starmer's doing the only thing he can, politically.
Brexit is done now. It's a mistake but it is done.
The Tories want to keep Brexit alive as a political fracture point. They want to be able to keep saying to the 25% of previous Lab supporters who support Brexit that Labour are still against them.
Labour has to neutralise Brexit. That is why Starmer told Lab MPs to vote for this deal. So that it minimises the effect of Johnson saying Lab is still against Brexit.
It's dirty and messy but it is politics.
The interesting thing is why Corbyn and McDonnell are making such a big song and dance about this. Almost as if they want to keep the Brexit argument going. Because if it does, Starmer is sunk. I suspect the Corbynistas would prefer that to a Starmer-led Labour victory in 2024.
Yes, how those Corbynistas like Gordon Brown, Alastair Campbell, Andrew Adonis and Ben Bradshaw have the nerve to keep pushing their remoaner agenda I will never know...
It's up to Starmer to set out his vision and what he expects the Labour Party to stand for. If people agree with it they will back him. If they don't , they wont. That's democracy.
-
Err Hasn't the senior Tory party member had all charges dropped against him? I suppose much to the annoyance of some posters on here.
He has been rubbing it in as well in the last few days getting lot's of exposure again, which will be even more annoying to you like a pesky fly on the end of your nose, bloody brilliant another loss.
Yes the police dropped the charges due to lack of evidence. The complainant is appealing this:
https://metro.co.uk/2020/12/13/police-drop-investigation-into-tory-mp-accused-of-rape-13744563/
-
Starmer's doing the only thing he can, politically.
Brexit is done now. It's a mistake but it is done.
The Tories want to keep Brexit alive as a political fracture point. They want to be able to keep saying to the 25% of previous Lab supporters who support Brexit that Labour are still against them.
Labour has to neutralise Brexit. That is why Starmer told Lab MPs to vote for this deal. So that it minimises the effect of Johnson saying Lab is still against Brexit.
It's dirty and messy but it is politics.
The interesting thing is why Corbyn and McDonnell are making such a big song and dance about this. Almost as if they want to keep the Brexit argument going. Because if it does, Starmer is sunk. I suspect the Corbynistas would prefer that to a Starmer-led Labour victory in 2024.
Which is baffling, a far left group preferring a far right group in Government
It's not baffling Filo. The far left and the far right have always been anti-EU.
That's the link.
-
Starmer's doing the only thing he can, politically.
Brexit is done now. It's a mistake but it is done.
The Tories want to keep Brexit alive as a political fracture point. They want to be able to keep saying to the 25% of previous Lab supporters who support Brexit that Labour are still against them.
Labour has to neutralise Brexit. That is why Starmer told Lab MPs to vote for this deal. So that it minimises the effect of Johnson saying Lab is still against Brexit.
It's dirty and messy but it is politics.
The interesting thing is why Corbyn and McDonnell are making such a big song and dance about this. Almost as if they want to keep the Brexit argument going. Because if it does, Starmer is sunk. I suspect the Corbynistas would prefer that to a Starmer-led Labour victory in 2024.
Which is baffling, a far left group preferring a far right group in Government
It's not baffling Filo. The far left and the far right have always been anti-EU.
That's the link.
Momentum are pro-EU. Does this mean they are not far-left?
-
Wilts.
Agreed. But I repeat. I fail to see what good, either immediately or long term it can do for Labour to have this public argument.
-
Starmer's doing the only thing he can, politically.
Brexit is done now. It's a mistake but it is done.
The Tories want to keep Brexit alive as a political fracture point. They want to be able to keep saying to the 25% of previous Lab supporters who support Brexit that Labour are still against them.
Labour has to neutralise Brexit. That is why Starmer told Lab MPs to vote for this deal. So that it minimises the effect of Johnson saying Lab is still against Brexit.
It's dirty and messy but it is politics.
The interesting thing is why Corbyn and McDonnell are making such a big song and dance about this. Almost as if they want to keep the Brexit argument going. Because if it does, Starmer is sunk. I suspect the Corbynistas would prefer that to a Starmer-led Labour victory in 2024.
Which is baffling, a far left group preferring a far right group in Government
It's not baffling Filo. The far left and the far right have always been anti-EU.
That's the link.
Momentum are pro-EU. Does this mean they are not far-left?
It's the traditional left who were anti EU , Benn , Scargill , Foot , Castle and the rest of the trade union movement before the miners strike .
I don't know what you'd class Momentum as , load of middle class , graduate and metropolitan champagne socialists pinning their colours to the EU whilst the working class take it up the rear possibly .
Nay mind , it's over now , I'm sure they'll find another cause to protest about soon enough , the price of coffee in Starbucks most likely .
-
Why does it seem as though you think you're the only one allowed to define what or who are working class, or who are "proper" left wing and who's just looking for another protest?
-
Tyke seems to think you can't be working class unless you're from up north and went down the pit. I guarantee you Tyke, there are 20-something Momentum members working minimum wage table waiting jobs in London who are working class through and through - most of them won't ever get the chance to enjoy the comfortable lifestyle you appear to live. Assuming they'll all vote Labour because they're the least worst option, as yourself and the current leadership appear to is a fools game.
-
Why does it seem as though you think you're the only one allowed to define what or who are working class, or who are "proper" left wing and who's just looking for another protest?
I don't think my opinion is of any more value than anybody else .
I didn't say the proper left , I said the traditional left from back in the day when we had strong trade unions and they were all anti EU .
Would you like me to rewrite history ?
This is played out today because the last man standing as a trade union with serious clout are the RMT who are anti EU .
The fact is following the miners strike the other trade unions in this country sort refuge in the EU as a consequence of Thatcher's policies .
The phrase frying pan in to the fire was
never more appropriate .
Maybe they thought the word Union was some kind of connection ..... bless !!! .
I merely speak as a trade union man , ex NUM and proudly working class who hasn't moved an inch on his opinion of the EU .
Billy says I'm a minority in this day and age , surely given that assessment the current Labour Party should be all over me given that's the only thing they want to represent .
You'd be better placed to actually debate how Labour are going to win the vote back in the Red Wall rather than whose lefter than who .
I'm comfortable in my skin .
-
MM
Seems to me that it needs some hard-headness on the part of Labour supporters. There's a huge gulf in outlooks between the old, post-Industrial Labour heartland and the young, metropolitan, globalist Left. But unless they both coalesce in supporting Labour, there is zero chance of ever getting a left leaning Govt.
Starmer knows this. He has to pull both sides together. But if both sides insist on things being acceptable only on their terms, the left is electorally dead in the water.
It needs both sides to see that reaching out to the other is part of the solution, not part of the problem.
In simple terms, you can get some of what you want or nothing. Neither side can get all of what it wants.
-
Tyke.
If you ever want to see a left Govt again, you'd do well to ponder what I just wrote.
You can hanker for the past but it is the past. The only way the left wins in future is by appealing to ex-miners in Barnsley, graduates in Bristol and third generation Bengalis in Tower Hamlets. If you insist on seeing the other two as an enemy to be baited and defeated, then you can look forward to right wing Governments for the rest of your life.
-
Tyke.
If you ever want to see a left Govt again, you'd do well to ponder what I just wrote.
You can hanker for the past but it is the past. The only way the left wins in future is by appealing to ex-miners in Barnsley, graduates in Bristol and third generation Bengalis in Tower Hamlets. If you insist on seeing the other two as an enemy to be baited and defeated, then you can look forward to right wing Governments for the rest of your life.
What, even against the worlds least popular leader?
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=278963.0
-
Tyke seems to think you can't be working class unless you're from up north and went down the pit. I guarantee you Tyke, there are 20-something Momentum members working minimum wage table waiting jobs in London who are working class through and through - most of them won't ever get the chance to enjoy the comfortable lifestyle you appear to live. Assuming they'll all vote Labour because they're the least worst option, as yourself and the current leadership appear to is a fools game.
I never said anything of the sort and how on earth would you know what my lifestyle is like ?
So what problems does joining Momentum actually solve ? .
Are the bars and restaurants in London going to pay them more when they flash their Momentum credentials ?
Will the EU suddenly decide to end free movement and cheap labour because of the poor old Momentum members ? .
What's wrong with you people ? .
Why don't they try to be a collective post brexit and grow a pair ? .
Anything that was ever won was won from struggle not joining a bunch of fruit cakes who want to change the world and can't see the wood from the trees .
-
Why does it seem as though you think you're the only one allowed to define what or who are working class, or who are "proper" left wing and who's just looking for another protest?
I don't think my opinion is of any more value than anybody else .
I didn't say the proper left , I said the traditional left from back in the day when we had strong trade unions and they were all anti EU .
Would you like me to rewrite history ?
This is played out today because the last man standing as a trade union with serious clout are the RMT who are anti EU .
The fact is following the miners strike the other trade unions in this country sort refuge in the EU as a consequence of Thatcher's policies .
The phrase frying pan in to the fire was
never more appropriate .
Maybe they thought the word Union was some kind of connection ..... bless !!! .
I merely speak as a trade union man , ex NUM and proudly working class who hasn't moved an inch on his opinion of the EU .
Billy says I'm a minority in this day and age , surely given that assessment the current Labour Party should be all over me given that's the only thing they want to represent .
You'd be better placed to actually debate how Labour are going to win the vote back in the Red Wall rather than whose lefter than who .
I'm comfortable in my skin .
You're the only one trying to debate who's lefter than who.
-
Tyke.
If you ever want to see a left Govt again, you'd do well to ponder what I just wrote.
You can hanker for the past but it is the past. The only way the left wins in future is by appealing to ex-miners in Barnsley, graduates in Bristol and third generation Bengalis in Tower Hamlets. If you insist on seeing the other two as an enemy to be baited and defeated, then you can look forward to right wing Governments for the rest of your life.
Ponder what Billy ? , since when was it any different to see a Labour government elected ?
Do you thing I'm stupid or something ?
I don't think the other fractions are the enemy Billy its the small matter of a Labour Party who have totally forgotten and left the Red Wall without representation and ill be fecked if I'm not taken on this journey .
You can also seriously forget about another Labour leader with his head up Thatcher's ass because that won't be happening with me either .
I'll give Starmer a go , let's see how this gets played out .
-
Tyke seems to think you can't be working class unless you're from up north and went down the pit. I guarantee you Tyke, there are 20-something Momentum members working minimum wage table waiting jobs in London who are working class through and through - most of them won't ever get the chance to enjoy the comfortable lifestyle you appear to live. Assuming they'll all vote Labour because they're the least worst option, as yourself and the current leadership appear to is a fools game.
I never said anything of the sort and how on earth would you know what my lifestyle is like ?
So what problems does joining Momentum actually solve ? .
Are the bars and restaurants in London going to pay them more when they flash their Momentum credentials ?
Will the EU suddenly decide to end free movement and cheap labour because of the poor old Momentum members ? .
What's wrong with you people ? .
Why don't they try to be a collective post brexit and grow a pair ? .
Anything that was ever won was won from struggle not joining a bunch of fruit cakes who want to change the world and can't see the wood from the trees .
Isn't the whole point of Momentum that it's a collective? To pull the Labour party leftwards to look after its predominantly working class members? I'm not a member but the idea that they're all middle-class lefties living in Soho flats is laughable. The irony that you make such a big deal out of your trade union credentials when you repeat talking points from the Mail and ultra-far-right clowns like Paul Embery is amazing. The fact you appear to be blaming workers for being exploited by their bosses is interesting, too. Easy to say "grow a pair" when you aren't on minimum wage struggling to keep a roof over your head. You're speaking about a class of people you haven't been a part of in decades, Tyke. Why on earth do you think you know what's best for a 20-year-old waiting tables in this day and age? A lot of these people will never get close to even owning their own home or car. And your response to that, when they try and raise their voice about it, is "grow a pair". Just another boomer looking to pull the ladder up behind him, it seems.
-
Why does it seem as though you think you're the only one allowed to define what or who are working class, or who are "proper" left wing and who's just looking for another protest?
I don't think my opinion is of any more value than anybody else .
I didn't say the proper left , I said the traditional left from back in the day when we had strong trade unions and they were all anti EU .
Would you like me to rewrite history ?
This is played out today because the last man standing as a trade union with serious clout are the RMT who are anti EU .
The fact is following the miners strike the other trade unions in this country sort refuge in the EU as a consequence of Thatcher's policies .
The phrase frying pan in to the fire was
never more appropriate .
Maybe they thought the word Union was some kind of connection ..... bless !!! .
I merely speak as a trade union man , ex NUM and proudly working class who hasn't moved an inch on his opinion of the EU .
Billy says I'm a minority in this day and age , surely given that assessment the current Labour Party should be all over me given that's the only thing they want to represent .
You'd be better placed to actually debate how Labour are going to win the vote back in the Red Wall rather than whose lefter than who .
I'm comfortable in my skin .
You're the only one trying to debate who's lefter than who.
Ok I'll take that but I'll be totally honest with you I ain't much time for younger people who won't stand up for themselves and won't see the collective argument and decide the easier solution is to join a support group attached to the Labour Party who in my opinion are just a bunch of fruitcakes with an electoral pro EU record to prove it .
Young people can end the gig economy , ZHC' s , achieve decent pay rises at Amazon distribution centres and what ever they wish .
They don't even have to affiliate to the Labour Party to do it , all they need is to be a collective .
Unfortunately I don't even see you as a tribute act to the traditional left .
Only my opinion mind .
-
Short memory, Tyke. You seem to be forgetting that unions were emasculated in the 80s by Thatcher. It's been a whole different landscape for downtrodden workers for 40 years now.
-
I'd have said "eviscerated" not emasculated but quite right either way lol
-
Short memory, Tyke. You seem to be forgetting that unions were emasculated in the 80s by Thatcher. It's been a whole different landscape for downtrodden workers for 40 years now.
That and privatisation, killed British Industry, and paved the way for low paid jobs of today
-
Tyke seems to think you can't be working class unless you're from up north and went down the pit. I guarantee you Tyke, there are 20-something Momentum members working minimum wage table waiting jobs in London who are working class through and through - most of them won't ever get the chance to enjoy the comfortable lifestyle you appear to live. Assuming they'll all vote Labour because they're the least worst option, as yourself and the current leadership appear to is a fools game.
I never said anything of the sort and how on earth would you know what my lifestyle is like ?
So what problems does joining Momentum actually solve ? .
Are the bars and restaurants in London going to pay them more when they flash their Momentum credentials ?
Will the EU suddenly decide to end free movement and cheap labour because of the poor old Momentum members ? .
What's wrong with you people ? .
Why don't they try to be a collective post brexit and grow a pair ? .
Anything that was ever won was won from struggle not joining a bunch of fruit cakes who want to change the world and can't see the wood from the trees .
Isn't the whole point of Momentum that it's a collective? To pull the Labour party leftwards to look after its predominantly working class members? I'm not a member but the idea that they're all middle-class lefties living in Soho flats is laughable. The irony that you make such a big deal out of your trade union credentials when you repeat talking points from the Mail and ultra-far-right clowns like Paul Embery is amazing. The fact you appear to be blaming workers for being exploited by their bosses is interesting, too. Easy to say "grow a pair" when you aren't on minimum wage struggling to keep a roof over your head. You're speaking about a class of people you haven't been a part of in decades, Tyke. Why on earth do you think you know what's best for a 20-year-old waiting tables in this day and age? A lot of these people will never get close to even owning their own home or car. And your response to that, when they try and raise their voice about it, is "grow a pair". Just another boomer looking to pull the ladder up behind him, it seems.
Well apart from having kids in their 20's and a 19 year old step daughter with a toddler whose partner work's a minimum wage job and they obviously rent .
So younger people have a monopoly on struggle do they ?
I have been made redundant 4 times , worked for agency's and minimum wage , had to endure it for two years following the 2008 crash before I got a proper job so to speak .
My generation don't own struggle either when I think of my grandparents in the 1930's , the war and the aftermath .
Each generation has to fight for his slice of the loaf because I can guarantee you noboby but nobody will give you anything if you don't .
Signing up to toothless groups such as Momentum who support clueless and weak Labour leaders such as Corbyn led to where exactly ?
It remains to be seen whether " Sir Keir Lets Have Another Referendum Starmer " and finished off the Red Wall vote is the answer .
As for Paul Embery he's the only one in the Labour Party who talks any sense if you took the time to listen to what he actually says with a more open mind .
Putting your faith in politician's is highly optimistic because the truth is Unity Is Strength within the workplace and you'll have to stand together and fight for the bstrd and ditch the self pity .
-
Short memory, Tyke. You seem to be forgetting that unions were emasculated in the 80s by Thatcher. It's been a whole different landscape for downtrodden workers for 40 years now.
So people in the workplace no longer exist then ? , replaced by robots entirely .
There aren't thousands of warehouse distribution workers , call centre and hospitality workers .
The truth is they want someone else do the fighting for em or just simply aren't bothered enough .
-
Tyke.
Does it ever dawn on you that the Unions were the cause of the situation we are now in. That they were the cause of their own destruction in the 1980s by their behaviour in the 1970s, when many of them were taken over by extremists? That they allowed themselves to be painted as enemies of the working class, and were effectively emasculated.
And no you turn round and blame young people these days, when it was precisely YOUR generation of young people who allowed a fine, vital system if working class solidarity and protection to be hijacked by revolutionaries and destroyed by the Right.
-
Tyke.
Does it ever dawn on you that the Unions were the cause of the situation we are now in. That they were the cause of their own destruction in the 1980s by their behaviour in the 1970s, when many of them were taken over by extremists? That they allowed themselves to be painted as enemies of the working class, and were effectively emasculated.
And no you turn round and blame young people these days, when it was precisely YOUR generation of young people who allowed a fine, vital system if working class solidarity and protection to be hijacked by revolutionaries and destroyed by the Right.
Of course there were extremists and numptys in the trade union movement , there are in every walk of life .
If people like Philip Green , Mike Ashley and the culture in the finance industry aren't extremists or extremism leading up to 2008 then what are they ? , winter of discontent !!! , how's about a decade and a half and still counting then , absolutely no consequences following it either for that lot .
When you talk of the 1970's it's probably best to understand what was actually going on .
The 1972 miners strike was the first official strike called by the NUM since 1926 , miners wages had fallen 3.7% behind their factory counterparts and the oil crisis in the middle east had caused prices to escalate leaving them even worse off , the greedy buggas eh !!! .
In 1978 inflation again was out of control and the members of trade unions wanted more money to pay their way , not pay themselves excessive amounts of money but simply to survive .
The 1984/85 miners strike was simply to carry on providing for their families as opposed to being thrown on the scrap heap during Thatcher's 1980's UK .
Perhaps in all three cases I've highlighted we should have left it to HR to sort out and seen how that worked out .
-
Really, providing for their families? And here was silly old me thinking it was only about pit closures
-
Really, providing for their families? And here was silly old me thinking it was only about pit closures
Surely you can see the correlation between pits closing and people providing for their families.
Even more so when you consider many members of the same families would lose their jobs!
-
The 1984 miners' strike was about nothing more than Scargill's personal ambition and he did it by conning NUM members to support him. Similar factors have given us the clown we currently have for a Prime Minister.
-
The 1984 miners' strike was about nothing more than Scargill's personal ambition and he did it by conning NUM members to support him. Similar factors have given us the clown we currently have for a Prime Minister.
What Scargill said at the time came true, there was a pit closure programme whic led to where we are now, a Nation sat on vast reserves of coal, with no deep mines left. Scargill may have had personal ambitions, but the strike was fully justified in my opinion
-
Tyke.
I have no problem at all with the strikes of 72 and 74. Those were justified and skillfully managed.
There are two things I do have issue with. Firstly (and it's a problem that extends to today) the infiltration of union management by the far left, who saw political action as their remit. That gave Thatcher public support to take on the unions).
Secondly (and this is connected) the absolute insanity of the Winter of Discontent. Go back to December 1978. There's a Labour Govt which, for all its failings, is supportive of the working class and the moderate unions. We are four-five months away from a General Election in which the only possible alternative outcome to a Labour Govt is the most hard-line right wing Tory Govt since the War, openly determined to smash the unions. Labour is 4-5% ahead in the polls.
As a union leader, what do you do?
Do you call the biggest strike for 50 years, leaving bodies unburied and rubbish piled up in mountains, the army brought in to run the fire service and the Labour Govt looking utterly helpless?
Do you set out with a policy that is guaranteed to put Thatcher in power?
Seems bizarre to even think of it, but that is precisely what the unions did. They laid the path for Thatcher and their own destruction. It had taken 150 years of effort to build up the union movement and your generation destroyed that in a few years. And now you criticise kids forced into zero hours contracts for not looking after their own interests!
-
Tyke.
I have no problem at all with the strikes of 72 and 74. Those were justified and skillfully managed.
There are two things I do have issue with. Firstly (and it's a problem that extends to today) the infiltration of union management by the far left, who saw political action as their remit. That gave Thatcher public support to take on the unions).
Secondly (and this is connected) the absolute insanity of the Winter of Discontent. Go back to December 1978. There's a Labour Govt which, for all its failings, is supportive of the working class and the moderate unions. We are four-five months away from a General Election in which the only possible alternative outcome to a Labour Govt is the most hard-line right wing Tory Govt since the War, openly determined to smash the unions. Labour is 4-5% ahead in the polls.
As a union leader, what do you do?
Do you call the biggest strike for 50 years, leaving bodies unburied and rubbish piled up in mountains, the army brought in to run the fire service and the Labour Govt looking utterly helpless?
Do you set out with a policy that is guaranteed to put Thatcher in power?
Seems bizarre to even think of it, but that is precisely what the unions did. They laid the path for Thatcher and their own destruction. It had taken 150 years of effort to build up the union movement and your generation destroyed that in a few years. And now you criticise kids forced into zero hours contracts for not looking after their own interests!
Unfortunately Billy you are mistaken .
Round about the time you thought 1974 Miners strike was a good thing plans were already getting prepared for the annihilation of the Trade Union Movement with the Tory Party .
Keith Joseph and Alfred Sherman created the Centre For Political Studies inspired by free market trumpeter Milton Friedman where neoliberalism , free marketeering and Trade Unions stamped in to the dust were planned .
Thatcher on winning the Tory leadership was invited to take a look at the game plan and as we know relished the idea .
1978/79 was irrelevant they were gunning for us well before that .
Labour were never going to win the 79 election when they lost compete control of inflation whether anybody went on strike or not .
Interestingly none of the plans were put in the 1979 tory manifesto , in fact hardly anything was in it .
So the country didn't vote Labour out because they couldn't control the unions , the country voted Labour out because they were completely clueless and unfit to govern .
I wasn't until 1983 and Thatcher's second term we started to see her hand with privatisation and then picking the fight with the NUM and the start of the Miners strike .
Afterwards the rest of the trade union movement looked to the EU for protection from free market economics and anti trade union laws , that worked well then !!! .
You'd hope that now today's Trade Unions no longer have a hat to hang on the EU peg that they may sense an opportunity to actually start a recruitment drive and make their presence known .
It would be a fair idea too that younger people engage with em and start standing up for themselves because as bad as they think they have it , it's absolutely nothing by comparison to what was achieved by the pioneers in social struggle at the beginning of the last century .
They bloody starved to death when they were blacklisted or had the guns turned on them in 1926 so I'm afraid the look at my generation ... poor us doesn't quite work for me .
-
How patronising is that? you've not had it as hard as me so you don't know real struggle.
Christ, careful you don't fall off that high horse.
-
Tyke.
I have no problem at all with the strikes of 72 and 74. Those were justified and skillfully managed.
There are two things I do have issue with. Firstly (and it's a problem that extends to today) the infiltration of union management by the far left, who saw political action as their remit. That gave Thatcher public support to take on the unions).
Secondly (and this is connected) the absolute insanity of the Winter of Discontent. Go back to December 1978. There's a Labour Govt which, for all its failings, is supportive of the working class and the moderate unions. We are four-five months away from a General Election in which the only possible alternative outcome to a Labour Govt is the most hard-line right wing Tory Govt since the War, openly determined to smash the unions. Labour is 4-5% ahead in the polls.
As a union leader, what do you do?
Do you call the biggest strike for 50 years, leaving bodies unburied and rubbish piled up in mountains, the army brought in to run the fire service and the Labour Govt looking utterly helpless?
Do you set out with a policy that is guaranteed to put Thatcher in power?
Seems bizarre to even think of it, but that is precisely what the unions did. They laid the path for Thatcher and their own destruction. It had taken 150 years of effort to build up the union movement and your generation destroyed that in a few years. And now you criticise kids forced into zero hours contracts for not looking after their own interests!
Unfortunately Billy you are mistaken .
Round about the time you thought 1974 Miners strike was a good thing plans were already getting prepared for the annihilation of the Trade Union Movement with the Tory Party .
Keith Joseph and Alfred Sherman created the Centre For Political Studies inspired by free market trumpeter Milton Friedman where neoliberalism , free marketeering and Trade Unions stamped in to the dust were planned .
Thatcher on winning the Tory leadership was invited to take a look at the game plan and as we know relished the idea .
1978/79 was irrelevant they were gunning for us well before that .
Labour were never going to win the 79 election when they lost compete control of inflation whether anybody went on strike or not .
Interestingly none of the plans were put in the 1979 tory manifesto , in fact hardly anything was in it .
So the country didn't vote Labour out because they couldn't control the unions , the country voted Labour out because they were completely clueless and unfit to govern .
I wasn't until 1983 and Thatcher's second term we started to see her hand with privatisation and then picking the fight with the NUM and the start of the Miners strike .
Afterwards the rest of the trade union movement looked to the EU for protection from free market economics and anti trade union laws , that worked well then !!! .
You'd hope that now today's Trade Unions no longer have a hat to hang on the EU peg that they may sense an opportunity to actually start a recruitment drive and make their presence known .
It would be a fair idea too that younger people engage with em and start standing up for themselves because as bad as they think they have it , it's absolutely nothing by comparison to what was achieved by the pioneers in social struggle at the beginning of the last century .
They bloody starved to death when they were blacklisted or had the guns turned on them in 1926 so I'm afraid the look at my generation ... poor us doesn't quite work for me .
I,m guessing you would be in your 70’s, if you are, you are the generation that had everything
-
How patronising is that? you've not had it as hard as me so you don't know real struggle.
Christ, careful you don't fall off that high horse.
I haven't said you don't have it hard , the point I'm trying to make is that complaining about it and doing nowt of substance isn't a great look .
I fell off your so called high horse in 1985 matey when we all marched back to work with our tails between our legs after Thatcher gave us a kicking .
The impact of that defeat weighs heavily when I see how things have turned out since and that's the honest truth .
It weighed that heavily I walked away from the mining industry in two years later because nowt was ever the same again and we all knew what was coming .
-
How patronising is that? you've not had it as hard as me so you don't know real struggle.
Christ, careful you don't fall off that high horse.
I haven't said you don't have it hard , the point I'm trying to make is that complaining about it and doing nowt of substance isn't a great look .
I fell off your so called high horse in 1985 matey when we all marched back to work with our tails between our legs after Thatcher gave us a kicking .
The impact of that defeat weighs heavily when I see how things have turned out since and that's the honest truth .
It weighed that heavily I walked away from the mining industry in two years later because nowt was ever the same again and we all knew what was coming .
The reason for that defeat is the Miners in Notts that went on to form the Tory funded UDM, they believed Thatcher and thought their jobs were safe, they were used and abused, the leader of the UDM Neil Greatex went on to be jailed for fraud with UDM funds, I think Roy Lynks was prosecuted as well, thats how selfish and dishonest that lot were. The TUC are partly to blame, a General Strike should have been called, but they had no bottle
-
Tyke.
I have no problem at all with the strikes of 72 and 74. Those were justified and skillfully managed.
There are two things I do have issue with. Firstly (and it's a problem that extends to today) the infiltration of union management by the far left, who saw political action as their remit. That gave Thatcher public support to take on the unions).
Secondly (and this is connected) the absolute insanity of the Winter of Discontent. Go back to December 1978. There's a Labour Govt which, for all its failings, is supportive of the working class and the moderate unions. We are four-five months away from a General Election in which the only possible alternative outcome to a Labour Govt is the most hard-line right wing Tory Govt since the War, openly determined to smash the unions. Labour is 4-5% ahead in the polls.
As a union leader, what do you do?
Do you call the biggest strike for 50 years, leaving bodies unburied and rubbish piled up in mountains, the army brought in to run the fire service and the Labour Govt looking utterly helpless?
Do you set out with a policy that is guaranteed to put Thatcher in power?
Seems bizarre to even think of it, but that is precisely what the unions did. They laid the path for Thatcher and their own destruction. It had taken 150 years of effort to build up the union movement and your generation destroyed that in a few years. And now you criticise kids forced into zero hours contracts for not looking after their own interests!
Unfortunately Billy you are mistaken .
Round about the time you thought 1974 Miners strike was a good thing plans were already getting prepared for the annihilation of the Trade Union Movement with the Tory Party .
Keith Joseph and Alfred Sherman created the Centre For Political Studies inspired by free market trumpeter Milton Friedman where neoliberalism , free marketeering and Trade Unions stamped in to the dust were planned .
Thatcher on winning the Tory leadership was invited to take a look at the game plan and as we know relished the idea .
1978/79 was irrelevant they were gunning for us well before that .
Labour were never going to win the 79 election when they lost compete control of inflation whether anybody went on strike or not .
Interestingly none of the plans were put in the 1979 tory manifesto , in fact hardly anything was in it .
So the country didn't vote Labour out because they couldn't control the unions , the country voted Labour out because they were completely clueless and unfit to govern .
I wasn't until 1983 and Thatcher's second term we started to see her hand with privatisation and then picking the fight with the NUM and the start of the Miners strike .
Afterwards the rest of the trade union movement looked to the EU for protection from free market economics and anti trade union laws , that worked well then !!! .
You'd hope that now today's Trade Unions no longer have a hat to hang on the EU peg that they may sense an opportunity to actually start a recruitment drive and make their presence known .
It would be a fair idea too that younger people engage with em and start standing up for themselves because as bad as they think they have it , it's absolutely nothing by comparison to what was achieved by the pioneers in social struggle at the beginning of the last century .
They bloody starved to death when they were blacklisted or had the guns turned on them in 1926 so I'm afraid the look at my generation ... poor us doesn't quite work for me .
I,m guessing you would be in your 70’s, if you are, you are the generation that had everything
The grand illusion of tyke sat in a nice detached property , mortgage free and pulling in a final salary pension hey !!!
You couldn't be further from the truth matey .
-
This thread highlights what I've said on here several times, that Starmer has taken on a momentous task, to unite a party that is hopelessly split between the liberalists and the left, the North and the South, and the young and the old.
Then, if he miraculously manages that, he's got to turn an 80 seat Tory majority into a Labour majority.
I don't envy his task one bit.
-
How patronising is that? you've not had it as hard as me so you don't know real struggle.
Christ, careful you don't fall off that high horse.
I haven't said you don't have it hard , the point I'm trying to make is that complaining about it and doing nowt of substance isn't a great look .
I fell off your so called high horse in 1985 matey when we all marched back to work with our tails between our legs after Thatcher gave us a kicking .
The impact of that defeat weighs heavily when I see how things have turned out since and that's the honest truth .
It weighed that heavily I walked away from the mining industry in two years later because nowt was ever the same again and we all knew what was coming .
I don't have it particularly hard, but I really don't know who you think you are thinking you're the one who gets to decide who's "worthy" by your standards.
You just come across as a typical "youth of today ra ra ra" boomer.
-
This thread highlights what I've said on here several times, that Starmer has taken on a momentous task, to unite a party that is hopelessly split between the liberalists and the left, the North and the South, and the young and the old.
Then, if he miraculously manages that, he's got to turn an 80 seat Tory majority into a Labour majority.
I don't envy his task one bit.
There doesn’t appear to be a lot of unity at all.
Starmer has got his work cut out big time.
-
How patronising is that? you've not had it as hard as me so you don't know real struggle.
Christ, careful you don't fall off that high horse.
I haven't said you don't have it hard , the point I'm trying to make is that complaining about it and doing nowt of substance isn't a great look .
I fell off your so called high horse in 1985 matey when we all marched back to work with our tails between our legs after Thatcher gave us a kicking .
The impact of that defeat weighs heavily when I see how things have turned out since and that's the honest truth .
It weighed that heavily I walked away from the mining industry in two years later because nowt was ever the same again and we all knew what was coming .
I don't have it particularly hard, but I really don't know who you think you are thinking you're the one who gets to decide who's "worthy" by your standards.
You just come across as a typical "youth of today ra ra ra" boomer.
Maybe folk are a little too easily offended these days .
-
How patronising is that? you've not had it as hard as me so you don't know real struggle.
Christ, careful you don't fall off that high horse.
I haven't said you don't have it hard , the point I'm trying to make is that complaining about it and doing nowt of substance isn't a great look .
I fell off your so called high horse in 1985 matey when we all marched back to work with our tails between our legs after Thatcher gave us a kicking .
The impact of that defeat weighs heavily when I see how things have turned out since and that's the honest truth .
It weighed that heavily I walked away from the mining industry in two years later because nowt was ever the same again and we all knew what was coming .
I don't have it particularly hard, but I really don't know who you think you are thinking you're the one who gets to decide who's "worthy" by your standards.
You just come across as a typical "youth of today ra ra ra" boomer.
Maybe folk are a little too easily offended these days .
Maybe folk are a little patronising and stuck in the past these days.
-
That's been true though for every Labour leader from Keir Hardie onwards. The labour movement is a very broad coalition with a number of different groups with different aims. The most successful leaders, Blair, Atlee, McDonald have the ones who have been able to create an inspiring vision and policy that all those groups can aim for. It's up to Starmer to create his vision. That's why he went into politics.
If people don't like that and prefer to vote for the party that represents big business interests - thats their choice.
-
There's a rumour doing the rounds on social media that he's going to announce his resignation tomorrow.
-
How patronising is that? you've not had it as hard as me so you don't know real struggle.
Christ, careful you don't fall off that high horse.
I haven't said you don't have it hard , the point I'm trying to make is that complaining about it and doing nowt of substance isn't a great look .
I fell off your so called high horse in 1985 matey when we all marched back to work with our tails between our legs after Thatcher gave us a kicking .
The impact of that defeat weighs heavily when I see how things have turned out since and that's the honest truth .
It weighed that heavily I walked away from the mining industry in two years later because nowt was ever the same again and we all knew what was coming .
I don't have it particularly hard, but I really don't know who you think you are thinking you're the one who gets to decide who's "worthy" by your standards.
You just come across as a typical "youth of today ra ra ra" boomer.
Maybe folk are a little too easily offended these days .
Maybe folk are a little patronising and stuck in the past these days.
Stuck in the past is an interesting one Janso given the same old problems still exist , also known as the distribution of wealth .
I've spent a huge amount of time representing members in the workplace and was privileged to do so .
I've very little time for those who whinge and moan but don't do much about it .
If that offends or come across badly , so be it .
-
How patronising is that? you've not had it as hard as me so you don't know real struggle.
Christ, careful you don't fall off that high horse.
I haven't said you don't have it hard , the point I'm trying to make is that complaining about it and doing nowt of substance isn't a great look .
I fell off your so called high horse in 1985 matey when we all marched back to work with our tails between our legs after Thatcher gave us a kicking .
The impact of that defeat weighs heavily when I see how things have turned out since and that's the honest truth .
It weighed that heavily I walked away from the mining industry in two years later because nowt was ever the same again and we all knew what was coming .
I don't have it particularly hard, but I really don't know who you think you are thinking you're the one who gets to decide who's "worthy" by your standards.
You just come across as a typical "youth of today ra ra ra" boomer.
Maybe folk are a little too easily offended these days .
Maybe folk are a little patronising and stuck in the past these days.
Stuck in the past is an interesting one Janso given the same old problems still exist , also known as the distribution of wealth .
I've spent a huge amount of time representing members in the workplace and was privileged to do so .
I've very little time for those who whinge and moan but don't do much about it .
If that offends or come across badly , so be it .
I've very little time for people who think they're the white knights and gate keepers of the left wing because they lived in a certain era.
-
There's a rumour doing the rounds on social media that he's going to announce his resignation tomorrow.
Saw that. I guess they must have had advance notice of that new poll just out which shows the Boris bounce:
https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1345449741950349315
-
Tyke.
"Labour were never going to win the 79 election when they lost compete control of inflation whether anybody went on strike or not ."
I lost interest at this. If you invent your own history to suit the story you want to believe, and ignore the real facts then discussion is pointless.
Look at the opinion polls from that time, absorb the facts, then we could try to discuss this again.
(http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/images/1979graph.jpg)
-
PS.
Inflation had got out of control in 1972-5. By 1978 it had come down significantly. It did start to go up again in 1979, but it is absurd to suggest that is why Labour's support collapsed in the winter of 78/79. It collapsed because of the suicidal actions of the unions. Labour was in a decent position to win in early 1979. Then the TGWU f**ked them over. THE blindest, most stupid action ever by the British Labour movement.
-
There's a rumour doing the rounds on social media that he's going to announce his resignation tomorrow.
Just the Momentum nutters getting a hashtag trending in my opinion, that lot will ensure we live with the Tory’s for the rest of our lives
-
Tyke.
"Labour were never going to win the 79 election when they lost compete control of inflation whether anybody went on strike or not ."
I lost interest at this. If you invent your own history to suit the story you want to believe, and ignore the real facts then discussion is pointless.
Look at the opinion polls from that time, absorb the facts, then we could try to discuss this again.
(http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/images/1979graph.jpg)
Billy I'm offering you facts about what was going on in the tory party following Heath biting the dust and you are giving me late 1970's opinion polls .
Oh well .
They were never going to take the fact the NUM brought their government down well I think we can at least agree on that .
However what I can't get my head round is the fact you seem to have a problem because the trade unions weren't prepared to see their wages drop in value which would have been the equivalent of what we know today as austerity .
Is this because in 1979 a Labour government were in office by any chance and so they should just have taken it up the rear ? .
The fight was about putting food on the table and not electing the next government .
As I've tried pointing out to you , the trade union movement's fate was sealed five years earlier when Heath's government fell and all they needed was a willing horse and an election win which Challaghan handed to em on a plate .
-
I've spent a huge amount of time representing members in the workplace and was privileged to do so .
I've very little time for those who whinge and moan but don't do much about it .
Quite beyond belief.
Tyke. You INHERITED an organised Labour movement. You didn't invent the bloody thing from scratch!
Then your generation destroyed it by fighting the wrong bloody enemy. And now, with the union movement decimated, you blame young people for it!
Stunning re-writing of history.
-
Tyke.
"Labour were never going to win the 79 election when they lost compete control of inflation whether anybody went on strike or not ."
I lost interest at this. If you invent your own history to suit the story you want to believe, and ignore the real facts then discussion is pointless.
Look at the opinion polls from that time, absorb the facts, then we could try to discuss this again.
(http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/images/1979graph.jpg)
Billy I'm offering you facts about what was going on in the tory party following Heath biting the dust and you are giving me late 1970's opinion polls .
Oh well .
They were never going to take the fact the NUM brought their government down well I think we can at least agree on that .
However what I can't get my head round is the fact you seem to have a problem because the trade unions weren't prepared to see their wages drop in value which would have been the equivalent of what we know today as austerity .
Is this because in 1979 a Labour government were in office by any chance and so they should just have taken it up the rear ? .
The fight was about putting food on the table and not electing the next government .
As I've tried pointing out to you , the trade union movement's fate was sealed five years earlier when Heath's government fell and all they needed was a willing horse and an election win which Challaghan handed to em on a plate .
So you are just going to ignore the polling facts and insist you are right? You're going to ignore the fact that Callaghan's Labour were ahead in the polls before the WoD and you are going to insist that Labour losing in 1979 is Callaghan's fault?
-
Starmer isn't resigning tomorrow. It's a meme that's being pushed to bait the Labour frontbench into responding. It's just shitposting, don't think about it too much.
-
Tyke.
"Labour were never going to win the 79 election when they lost compete control of inflation whether anybody went on strike or not ."
I lost interest at this. If you invent your own history to suit the story you want to believe, and ignore the real facts then discussion is pointless.
Look at the opinion polls from that time, absorb the facts, then we could try to discuss this again.
(http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/images/1979graph.jpg)
Billy I'm offering you facts about what was going on in the tory party following Heath biting the dust and you are giving me late 1970's opinion polls .
Oh well .
They were never going to take the fact the NUM brought their government down well I think we can at least agree on that .
However what I can't get my head round is the fact you seem to have a problem because the trade unions weren't prepared to see their wages drop in value which would have been the equivalent of what we know today as austerity .
Is this because in 1979 a Labour government were in office by any chance and so they should just have taken it up the rear ? .
The fight was about putting food on the table and not electing the next government .
As I've tried pointing out to you , the trade union movement's fate was sealed five years earlier when Heath's government fell and all they needed was a willing horse and an election win which Challaghan handed to em on a plate .
So you are just going to ignore the polling facts and insist you are right? You're going to ignore the fact that Callaghan's Labour were ahead in the polls before the WoD and you are going to insist that Labour losing in 1979 is Callaghan's fault?
Opinion polls aren't necessarily the facts today never mind in the late 1970's Billy .
You are also assuming that every member of a trade union voted Labour in 1979 , they didn't and the reason they didn't is because membership of a trade union was accepted by both tories and labour so carried less allegiance to party politics you are imagining .
They weren't prepared to eat Labour's austerity pie and had enough about em to do something about it .
It's as simple as that really , the 79 election was neither here nor there .
-
There's a rumour doing the rounds on social media that he's going to announce his resignation tomorrow.
Just the Momentum nutters getting a hashtag trending in my opinion, that lot will ensure we live with the Tory’s for the rest of our lives
So Momentum speak for the whole country , wow ... who knew !!
-
There's a rumour doing the rounds on social media that he's going to announce his resignation tomorrow.
Just the Momentum nutters getting a hashtag trending in my opinion, that lot will ensure we live with the Tory’s for the rest of our lives
So Momentum speak for the whole country , wow ... who knew !!
You know very well what I mean, they will and are splitting the labour vote rather than coming together for the good of the labour party, they have had 2 goes at a General Election with their poster boy as leader and failed, they are trying every tool at their disposal to ensure any leader that they don’t approve of will fail to win an election
-
The mainstream party that is left of center pushing away a large number of left wing voters probably isn't the smart thing to do though.
-
Nor is making up stuff about Momentum. Or falling for Tory disinformation scams.
-
This thread highlights what I've said on here several times, that Starmer has taken on a momentous task, to unite a party that is hopelessly split between the liberalists and the left, the North and the South, and the young and the old.
Then, if he miraculously manages that, he's got to turn an 80 seat Tory majority into a Labour majority.
I don't envy his task one bit.
I do think on balance he has an overall good chance of attracting a lot of floating voters who aren't happy with the conservatives if his policies are a little more towards the centre. The problem he has is that alienates other part of his party and how that plays out is fascinating. A lot of people who aren't happy with the Tories right now will want a home and labour can sieze that opportunity.
-
There's a rumour doing the rounds on social media that he's going to announce his resignation tomorrow.
Just the Momentum nutters getting a hashtag trending in my opinion, that lot will ensure we live with the Tory’s for the rest of our lives
So Momentum speak for the whole country , wow ... who knew !!
You know very well what I mean, they will and are splitting the labour vote rather than coming together for the good of the labour party, they have had 2 goes at a General Election with their poster boy as leader and failed, they are trying every tool at their disposal to ensure any leader that they don’t approve of will fail to win an election
Well that's fair enough but it's also worth pointing out that the Blairites and the centre of the Labour Party did exactly the same when Corbyn had the gig .
Nobody is clearly coming out of this well as far as gaining the keys to number 10 that much we do know .
I'd suggest most Labour voters on election day are somewhere between Blair and Corbyn which is why I thought Starmer may have half a sniff .
There's two sides to this , the centre and Blairites were totally pyssed off when Corbyn was elected leader not once but twice and fecking romped home too to be fair .
So it's retribution time now for SKS mainly because he's slung Corbyn out .
I was neither a Blairite or for Corbyn so it's not a tribal thing for me .
I get the fact Labour has to find a new vision and Corbynism had to go because he got routed in 2019 but he aint antisemitic either and that's proper unfair but SKS has used that as his weapon so you can see why they are gunning for Starmer .
The party elected the wrong brother and it's been a shyte show since .
-
I thought Ed was pretty decent tbf. Most genuine from both sides in years.
-
I thought Ed was pretty decent tbf. Most genuine from both sides in years.
But lost to Cameron which is a bit of a shocker .
I'm not saying David was my dog in the fight but he had more appeal than Ed in my opinion to the whole electorate .
All I know Starmer is eating a proper shyte sandwich at the moment .
At least he's got time on his side and it's now the post brexit period .
It's a long game is this with thankfully the former Red Wall now relevant .
The think tanks need to get pro active big time .
-
Tyke.
"Labour were never going to win the 79 election when they lost compete control of inflation whether anybody went on strike or not ."
I lost interest at this. If you invent your own history to suit the story you want to believe, and ignore the real facts then discussion is pointless.
Look at the opinion polls from that time, absorb the facts, then we could try to discuss this again.
(http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/images/1979graph.jpg)
Billy I'm offering you facts about what was going on in the tory party following Heath biting the dust and you are giving me late 1970's opinion polls .
Oh well .
They were never going to take the fact the NUM brought their government down well I think we can at least agree on that .
However what I can't get my head round is the fact you seem to have a problem because the trade unions weren't prepared to see their wages drop in value which would have been the equivalent of what we know today as austerity .
Is this because in 1979 a Labour government were in office by any chance and so they should just have taken it up the rear ? .
The fight was about putting food on the table and not electing the next government .
As I've tried pointing out to you , the trade union movement's fate was sealed five years earlier when Heath's government fell and all they needed was a willing horse and an election win which Challaghan handed to em on a plate .
So you are just going to ignore the polling facts and insist you are right? You're going to ignore the fact that Callaghan's Labour were ahead in the polls before the WoD and you are going to insist that Labour losing in 1979 is Callaghan's fault?
Opinion polls aren't necessarily the facts today never mind in the late 1970's Billy .
You are also assuming that every member of a trade union voted Labour in 1979 , they didn't and the reason they didn't is because membership of a trade union was accepted by both tories and labour so carried less allegiance to party politics you are imagining .
They weren't prepared to eat Labour's austerity pie and had enough about em to do something about it .
It's as simple as that really , the 79 election was neither here nor there .
Tyke
1) No poll is ever perfect. But, when the running average of a party's poll figures drops by 10% pretty much overnight, that is ALWAYS because something major has happened to reduce the party's popularity. Labour's figures dropped 10% overnight as the WoD bit. It is ridiculous of you to ignore that.
2) I'm not talking about trades unionists being the ones who deserted Labour. It was predominantly NON-trades unionists, on non-militant ones who were shocked by unions tipping the country into chaos, and who linked Labour with that. Several million people who flipped from Labour to Tory in January 1979 and who then voted for the Tories in May 1979. THEY put Thatcher into No10 and heralded the destruction of the unions.
The unions brought it on themselves. Absolute stupidity. Because they couldn't see the big strategic picture.
-
I've spent a huge amount of time representing members in the workplace and was privileged to do so .
I've very little time for those who whinge and moan but don't do much about it .
Quite beyond belief.
Tyke. You INHERITED an organised Labour movement. You didn't invent the bloody thing from scratch!
Then your generation destroyed it by fighting the wrong bloody enemy. And now, with the union movement decimated, you blame young people for it!
Stunning re-writing of history.
Just to clarify I just turned 17 when Thatcher was elected and only started representing people in the workplace when I'd left the mining industry with the women in total control of every aspect of people's lives , well apart from the likes of me .
How lucky was I when folk were buying their council houses and Sid was selling you shares you already owned ? .
Thankfully I saw women get what she deserved when she thought the Poll Tax was a good idea and I was in Central London in March 1990 and played my part in what occurred that day and saw both her and the Poll Tax removed and the Met get payback day from the strike .
Possibly you were busy that day looking at the opinion polls , the cynic in me thinks you'd have paid the fecker ... who knows ? .
-
Personally, I wasn't keen on any of the Milliband brothers. I always liked Andy Burnham, and still do.
Interestingly, he's up again for election as Mayor of Greater Manchester in May, if he's standing. That would take him to 2024.
If Starmer loses, AB would be the perfect replacement for me. Assuming, of course, that he fancies another stab at it.
-
The Tories used the success of the Ford Capri and Ford motors to gain a vote of no confidence in the labour government.
Callaghan's government had a maximum percentage wage rise imposition on any wage rise, the Ford motor company said that they were willing to give the unions an above that level wage rise but due to government rules they were unable to do so and Thatcher and the Tories said that a company should be able to pay it's workers what they wanted to and used it to bring a motion of no confidence in the government.
Some labour MPs voted against their own government when that became the reason for a vote of no confidence in the government and narrowly brought the government down.
Labour MP's and unions were responsible for Margaret Thatcher gaining power, and were used to do so.
-
The Tories used the success of the Ford Capri and Ford motors to gain a vote of no confidence in the labour government.
Callaghan's government had a maximum percentage wage rise imposition on any wage rise, the Ford motor company said that they were willing to give the unions an above that level wage rise but due to government rules they were unable to do so and Thatcher and the Tories said that a company should be able to pay it's workers what they wanted to and used it to bring a motion of no confidence in the government.
Some labour MPs voted against their own government when that became the reason for a vote of no confidence in the government and narrowly brought the government down.
Labour MP's and unions were responsible for Margaret Thatcher gaining power, and were used to do so.
Not one Labour party mp voted against the party, the Labour Govt was a minority Govt at that time, they lost the vote by 1 vote, the SNP and Libs brought the Govt down
Do you just make stuff up as you type it?
-
The Tories used the success of the Ford Capri and Ford motors to gain a vote of no confidence in the labour government.
Callaghan's government had a maximum percentage wage rise imposition on any wage rise, the Ford motor company said that they were willing to give the unions an above that level wage rise but due to government rules they were unable to do so and Thatcher and the Tories said that a company should be able to pay it's workers what they wanted to and used it to bring a motion of no confidence in the government.
Some labour MPs voted against their own government when that became the reason for a vote of no confidence in the government and narrowly brought the government down.
Labour MP's and unions were responsible for Margaret Thatcher gaining power, and were used to do so.
Not one Labour party mp voted against the party, the Labour Govt was a minority Govt at that time, they lost the vote by 1 vote, the SNP and Libs brought the Govt down
Do you just make stuff up as you type it?
Do you really need to ask? then when he's caught out he was trying to wind us up all along.
-
The Tories used the success of the Ford Capri and Ford motors to gain a vote of no confidence in the labour government.
Callaghan's government had a maximum percentage wage rise imposition on any wage rise, the Ford motor company said that they were willing to give the unions an above that level wage rise but due to government rules they were unable to do so and Thatcher and the Tories said that a company should be able to pay it's workers what they wanted to and used it to bring a motion of no confidence in the government.
Some labour MPs voted against their own government when that became the reason for a vote of no confidence in the government and narrowly brought the government down.
Labour MP's and unions were responsible for Margaret Thatcher gaining power, and were used to do so.
Not one Labour party mp voted against the party, the Labour Govt was a minority Govt at that time, they lost the vote by 1 vote, the SNP and Libs brought the Govt down
Do you just make stuff up as you type it?
Do you really need to ask? then when he's caught out he was trying to wind us up all along.
And just to clear things up there was one Labour abstention, and that was because the MP was hours from dying, he still wanted to vote but the PM said he couldn’t let him travel in case he died en route, a Tory MP was supposed to abstain in a pairing up deal, but he didn’t and the vote was won by one vote, the Tory’s have always been treacherous bas**rds
-
Plus, Ford had nothing it do with it. The Tories supported the vote of no confidence because the SNP had already raised one due to Devolution not happening after the referendum didn't get the necessary result to make it happen. Prior to this the SNP had voted with the Government in order to make sure the referendum took place.
-
Plus, Ford had nothing it do with it. The Tories supported the vote of no confidence because the SNP had already raised one due to Devolution not happening after the referendum didn't get the necessary result to make it happen. Prior to this the SNP had voted with the Government in order to make sure the referendum took place.
And the SNP lost 9 of their 11 seats at the election, that panned out well for them didn’t it?
-
So other than Starmer heckling the on stage comedian once a week at PMQ's when is he going to reveal himself , develop a strategy and some policies ? .
Well I sincerely hope they are doing more listening than talking because telling folk like me what we should think or not think ain't worked too well for the last 10 years .
What I want to see personally .
1 , Clean the bloody streets and communities up , big sentences for carrying knifes , drug dealing and anti social behaviour , not plastic bobby's but a huge increase in on the ground Police Officers , your seen as the soft party ..... change it .
2 , End back door NHS privatisation whilst also having a root and branch appraisal of NHS procurement procedures , heads to roll if not delivering the best value for the taxpayer .
3 , Stop prioritising minorities and start speaking for everybody as one , it creates divides , the very thing the tories cash in on , you do the fecking work for em .
4 , Fund council's so they can purchase more housing stock , funded council owned properties and maintenance programmes are the best landlords you can have .
5 , The Jeremy Kyle benefit culture began with you lot and Blair , don't go there again and I don't give a feck how many kids they have either , they brought em in to the world so they feed em , it's not up to Mr Joe Taxpayer to do it but at least have the nous to make work pay more than benefits .
6 , End ZHC's entirely , only two contracts should exist , full time or agreed number of part time hours at the point of appointment .
6 tests for thi Starmer , hope tha does better than tha did with the last ones you set yourself .
-
It's all in and Tyke he must have hired at least half by now surely?
''Officials working on Boris Johnson's pledge to recruit 20,000 new police officers in England and Wales within three years say more than 50,000 will actually be needed''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51417872
-
It's all in and Tyke he must have hired at least half by now surely?
''Officials working on Boris Johnson's pledge to recruit 20,000 new police officers in England and Wales within three years say more than 50,000 will actually be needed''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51417872
These are the issues Labour should be focusing on Sydney , law and order , the communities , the workplace , NHS and making work pay .
They need another minority cause to ram down my throat like I need a hole in the head if they want to topple this lot in 2024 .
-
It's all in and Tyke he must have hired at least half by now surely?
''Officials working on Boris Johnson's pledge to recruit 20,000 new police officers in England and Wales within three years say more than 50,000 will actually be needed''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-51417872
These are the issues Labour should be focusing on Sydney , law and order , the communities , the workplace , NHS and making work pay .
They need another minority cause to ram down my throat like I need a hole in the head if they want to topple this lot in 2024 .
Your last 2 posts have been absolutely excellent Tyke.
-
So other than Starmer heckling the on stage comedian once a week at PMQ's when is he going to reveal himself , develop a strategy and some policies ? .
Well I sincerely hope they are doing more listening than talking because telling folk like me what we should think or not think ain't worked too well for the last 10 years .
What I want to see personally .
1 , Clean the bloody streets and communities up , big sentences for carrying knifes , drug dealing and anti social behaviour , not plastic bobby's but a huge increase in on the ground Police Officers , your seen as the soft party ..... change it .
2 , End back door NHS privatisation whilst also having a root and branch appraisal of NHS procurement procedures , heads to roll if not delivering the best value for the taxpayer .
3 , Stop prioritising minorities and start speaking for everybody as one , it creates divides , the very thing the tories cash in on , you do the fecking work for em .
4 , Fund council's so they can purchase more housing stock , funded council owned properties and maintenance programmes are the best landlords you can have .
5 , The Jeremy Kyle benefit culture began with you lot and Blair , don't go there again and I don't give a feck how many kids they have either , they brought em in to the world so they feed em , it's not up to Mr Joe Taxpayer to do it but at least have the nous to make work pay more than benefits .
6 , End ZHC's entirely , only two contracts should exist , full time or agreed number of part time hours at the point of appointment .
6 tests for thi Starmer , hope tha does better than tha did with the last ones you set yourself .
I remember reading something not long before Christmas saying he was planning a major policy speech in March/April ready for the local election in May.
No point doing it at the moment as it will just get lost in how to deal with covid.