Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: tyke1962 on April 04, 2021, 11:46:18 am
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The first assessment of Starmer's leadership and the Labour Party is vast approaching .
This isn't about what the Mail or Express say , this isn't about what social media says either or in many cases historically the polls .
This is the only assessment that matters , the dear old electorate .
To say Starmer and Labour have had plenty to go on since 2019 is the mother of all understatements .
The three scenarios are this
1 , Labour claw back some respectability , I wouldn't expect them to gain back what they once enjoyed in one hit but they certainly need to have hit rock bottom in 2019 and the curve needs to show signs of a north direction ( no pun intended ) and they retain Hartlepool .
2 , The Tory vote shows no significant change , they scrape home in Hartlepool by the skin of their teeth , extremely worrying for Labour .
3, The Tories increase their vote share and win the Hartlepool by election , a complete catastrophe .
I suspect all three scenarios are possible personally .
How do you see this playing out ?
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Labour have selected a hardcore FBPE remainer in a 70% leave voting area. Couple that with the despicable behaviour of the last mp and it's too easy for the tories. It'll go badly for them is my guess.
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To any on the left of center Labour have been a poor opposition to the Tories, they've been given free reign. I'd expect they'll lose a fair number of voters to Green or Lib Dems that they've taken for granted under Starmer.
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The Tories have tried to help them though, not selecting someone who is local to fight the seat.
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The Northern Independance party have an ex Labour candidate standing.
It's a similar set up to the Yorkshire Party and they could well split the Labour vote in Hartlepool.
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The Northern Independance party have an ex Labour candidate standing.
It's a similar set up to the Yorkshire Party and they could well split the Labour vote in Hartlepool.
I was reading about this new party the other day RD , Northumbria or something I believe .
Interesting to see what votes they do attract next month if nothing else .
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Pretty marginal I would have thought - depends where the old Brexit Party vote goes - or if they stay at home.
I think the Scottish Elections are going to be far more interesting - and with longer lasting consequences.
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The first assessment of Starmer's leadership and the Labour Party is vast approaching .
2 , The Tory vote shows no significant change , they scrape home in Hartlepool by the skin of their teeth , extremely worrying for Labour .
How do you see this playing out ?
Suspect based on the feature I saw the other day about Redcar the Tory vote was holding up well up there
These were people as old as me - and they obviously wanted Johnny Foreigner out of the UK so they voted Leave AND they thought "Boris" [aka Liar Johnson] was doing well and doing a good job - and had had "bad luck" with the Virus - and they said Starmer hadnt persuaded them back to Labour - far from it
FFS I could not believe them but I man 1 vote - thats democracy I suppose
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The first assessment of Starmer's leadership and the Labour Party is vast approaching .
2 , The Tory vote shows no significant change , they scrape home in Hartlepool by the skin of their teeth , extremely worrying for Labour .
How do you see this playing out ?
Suspect based on the feature I saw the other day about Redcar the Tory vote was holding up well up there
These were people as old as me - and they obviously wanted Johnny Foreigner out of the UK so they voted Leave AND they thought "Boris" [aka Liar Johnson] was doing well and doing a good job - and had had "bad luck" with the Virus - and they said Starmer hadnt persuaded them back to Labour - far from it
FFS I could not believe them but I man 1 vote - thats democracy I suppose
Is it really credible to blame the electorate ?
This was once an area that Labour had in the bag before a vote was counted for decades and is now a marginal seat .
Surely if Labour had done such a fantastic job nothing would have changed .
Surely if Labour had a better alternative argument the election wouldn't be in doubt either .
These are realities that have to be overcome and that's why these elections are so important in my opinion .
Labour now have to offer the electorate something to attract their vote , the former red wall electorate cannot be taken for granted anymore , they shouldn't have been in the first place .
Simply pointing at the Tories and the electorate isn't going to work .
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Hartlepool was dumped on by Labour with the selection of disgraced Peter Mandelson a few years ago.
Same thing happening again with the imposition of an unsuitable candidate, so people will be pissed off again.
Northern Independence Party putting up a good candidate in Thelma Walker, pushing Labour from the left.
They don't expect to win, but to pressure Labour into having some bollox with policies and principles suited to the issues a place like Pools faces.
In a way, it is like what Ukip and the Brexit Party did to the Tories.....pushed them to a position beyond their comfort zone.
A vote of up to 5% for NIP will punish Labour on the day...let's see!
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I struggle to understand what Labour's internal critics are wanting.
On economics, the current Labour position is very similar to that of Corbyn and McDonnell (which in itself was very similar to that of Milliband and Balls, despite what the Corbynistas would have you believe).
The existential problem Labour now has is not on the economics. They have an economic policy that 50% of the population would support. More than enough to win any election.
The problem is that the Tories have diverted politics into Culture War territory. First with Brexit. Then with the opportunistic response to BLM. Now with the flag idolisation.
And there's the issue for Labour. The 50% that would support Labour on economics is split by a massive gulf on cultural issues. 15-20% old, socially conservative Red Wall post-Industrial working class. 30-35% metropolitan, internationalist, minority-supporting, socially liberal.
The Tories are going to remorselessly try to keep those two groups arguing. The deeply depressing thing is that both those groups seem determined to walk into that trap. Every nod Starmer gives to the socially conservative Labour voters gets the socially liberal wing screaming "treachery" or even worse, "Blairite". And vice versa.
Needs some f**king cool heads in the Labour party to realise that both sides of the party lose if both sides insist on having things only on their terms.
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I struggle to understand what Labour's internal critics are wanting.
On economics, the current Labour position is very similar to that of Corbyn and McDonnell (which in itself was very similar to that of Milliband and Balls, despite what the Corbynistas would have you believe).
The existential problem Labour now has is not on the economics. They have an economic policy that 50% of the population would support. More than enough to win any election.
The problem is that the Tories have diverted politics into Culture War territory. First with Brexit. Then with the opportunistic response to BLM. Now with the flag idolisation.
And there's the issue for Labour. The 50% that would support Labour on economics is split by a massive gulf on cultural issues. 15-20% old, socially conservative Red Wall post-Industrial working class. 30-35% metropolitan, internationalist, minority-supporting, socially liberal.
The Tories are going to remorselessly try to keep those two groups arguing. The deeply depressing thing is that both those groups seem determined to walk into that trap. Every nod Starmer gives to the socially conservative Labour voters gets the socially liberal wing screaming "treachery" or even worse, "Blairite". And vice versa.
Needs some f**king cool heads in the Labour party to realise that both sides of the party lose if both sides insist on having things only on their terms.
I wouldn't disagree for one minute the Tories don't stoke the culture war fire .
However there's a real one at play in Batley right now without any stoking getting done by the Tory Party .
The issue resides in a Labour held seat .
I try to look at these things with an open mind , on one hand we don't have any blasphemy laws in England on the other the portrayal of the prophet Muhammad in cartoon or any other form is considered blasphemy within the Muslim community with pretty serious consequences for those who do .
It's a classic culture war issue of its own making .
There's absolutely no way that a teacher should have to go in to hiding in this country when they are no blasphemy laws .
I'm not saying the prophet Muhammad should be deliberately disrespected either .
Until these kind of issues aren't an issue the culture wars won't go away .
Labour have to come out on the right side of these issues because these are issues involving real mixed communities living real lives .
They aren't all dreamt up by Tory Party strategists and ignored by the nothing to see here metropolitan branch of the Labour Party .
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How do you make issues such as this a non-issue Tyke?
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I'd like to add that my comment above was not just a flippant reply but that I agree with you that it needs serious thought.
Labour needs to have a stronger representation in the media so they can counter the rediculous positions that the express, tele, mail and similar put up, it can't be always putting forward facts and logical arguments such as in the guardian because as we know there is a healthy majority that don't want to know. The mirror balances some of the dribble coming from the sun but labor need to get smarter.
It can't be education unless private schools don't teach humanities, history nor ethics unless those that attend haven't got the capacity or desire to learn. Why do they churn out such selfish born to rule bozos?
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''Britain’s top jobs still in hands of private school elite, study finds''
''‘Scandalous’ figures show extent of domination in politics, media and business'' (2019)
It's this that begets the cronyism that is rife in the government, high office, judiciary and business.
''In the media, 43% of the 100 most influential news editors and broadcasters, and 44% of newspaper columnists went to fee-paying schools; 33% of those went to both private school and either Oxford or Cambridge. In the arts, 44% of top actors and 30% of pop stars went to independent schools''
''In stark contrast, in the world of football, just 5% of male international stars went to private school, the only area where the privately educated are underrepresented. In the world of rugby, meanwhile, 37% of international players were privately educated, and in cricket 43% of the England team went to independent schools''
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/jun/25/britains-top-jobs-still-in-hands-of-private-school-elite-study-finds
''Elitism in Britain - breakdown by profession (2014)
A government report has likened elitism in Britain to “social engineering”. Find out the profession with the highest proportion of its members educated at private school''
https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2014/aug/28/elitism-in-britain-breakdown-by-profession
I look forward to the levelling up, so far it doesn't look good. These articles are from the recent past and there is no reason to believe that anything has changed.
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How do you make issues such as this a non-issue Tyke?
This is an issue that goes way beyond British politics, there is a significant section of Muslim society struggling to come to terms with the existence of secular societies.
I keep hearing voices saying there needs to be some sort of reformation but whether that can happen, I don't know.
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I struggle to understand what Labour's internal critics are wanting.
On economics, the current Labour position is very similar to that of Corbyn and McDonnell (which in itself was very similar to that of Milliband and Balls, despite what the Corbynistas would have you believe).
The existential problem Labour now has is not on the economics. They have an economic policy that 50% of the population would support. More than enough to win any election.
The problem is that the Tories have diverted politics into Culture War territory. First with Brexit. Then with the opportunistic response to BLM. Now with the flag idolisation.
And there's the issue for Labour. The 50% that would support Labour on economics is split by a massive gulf on cultural issues. 15-20% old, socially conservative Red Wall post-Industrial working class. 30-35% metropolitan, internationalist, minority-supporting, socially liberal.
The Tories are going to remorselessly try to keep those two groups arguing. The deeply depressing thing is that both those groups seem determined to walk into that trap. Every nod Starmer gives to the socially conservative Labour voters gets the socially liberal wing screaming "treachery" or even worse, "Blairite". And vice versa.
Needs some f**king cool heads in the Labour party to realise that both sides of the party lose if both sides insist on having things only on their terms.
I wouldn't disagree for one minute the Tories don't stoke the culture war fire .
However there's a real one at play in Batley right now without any stoking getting done by the Tory Party .
The issue resides in a Labour held seat .
I try to look at these things with an open mind , on one hand we don't have any blasphemy laws in England on the other the portrayal of the prophet Muhammad in cartoon or any other form is considered blasphemy within the Muslim community with pretty serious consequences for those who do .
It's a classic culture war issue of its own making .
There's absolutely no way that a teacher should have to go in to hiding in this country when they are no blasphemy laws .
I'm not saying the prophet Muhammad should be deliberately disrespected either .
Until these kind of issues aren't an issue the culture wars won't go away .
Labour have to come out on the right side of these issues because these are issues involving real mixed communities living real lives .
They aren't all dreamt up by Tory Party strategists and ignored by the nothing to see here metropolitan branch of the Labour Party .
What on earth has Batley Grammar School got to do with the Labour Party - or any politician of any party in Batley? They are not a council run school - they are an independent academy?
On their website it states they 'aim to identify, encourage and develop the talents and qualities of each pupil to their full potential and help to prepare them for adult life as confident, independent and respectful members of a caring multicultural society.' It's up to them to explain to their board and parents how using teaching materials which are offensive to part of their school community is going to achieve this.
They are however teaching to a Tory based curriculum and have been for the past 11 years. If you have been following the Race Report controversy you will have seen what this means. They want schools to teach 'the truth' about modern Britain - as this has proved successful in Russia! Lets teach history like they do in Russia! (Dominic Cummings of course spent several years in Russia and Carrie Symonds was a senior figure in Conservative Friends of Russia).
Now Russia would not be my model of choice to teach about modern, free, open, muti-ethnic democracies. But if you wished to create a corrupt, cronyist, one party state in power for the sake of its multi-billionaires - then they would be near the top of the list.
This is what the culture war actually seeks to 'win'. This is what Brexit was about.
Vote wisely.
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How do you make issues such as this a non-issue Tyke?
This is an issue that goes way beyond British politics, there is a significant section of Muslim society struggling to come to terms with the existence of secular societies.
I keep hearing voices saying there needs to be some sort of reformation but whether that can happen, I don't know.
We need to look at how long it's taken to emerge from the shadows of christian religions to get an idea how long this may take RD.
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Tyke
You make my point for me.
If Labour fights the next election on Culture War and Identity themes, they are f**ked. You have to understand that your insistence on playing by the Culture War rules is basically giving the future to the Right.
Because (at the risk of repeating what should be bleeding obvious) there aren't enough voters in the country to put the socially conservative, economically radical Govt that you want in power.
It's as simple as that.
So you have a choice.
You can prioritize the economics, which requires a Labour Govt, which requires you to grit your teeth and stop banging on about Culture War issues.
Or you can prioritize Culture War issues. In which case, you can forget about ever seeing another left wing Govt in your lifetime.
(NB. Exactly the same argument applies to people on the Left who are socially liberal.)
That is why Starmer desperately wants to neuter the Culture War theme and concentrate on economics.
And meanwhile there is a fascinating example going on over the Atlantic. Biden was castigated by both the socially liberal and socially conservative wings of the Democrat party. And he was bated by Trump who tried to beat him on Culture War issues. But he stuck to a theme that more or less ignored Identity Politics and talked about the need for economic recovery.
And look what he has done. He's started the most enormous Govt spending package since WWII. $1.9trn. Nearly 10% of GDP. It's a massive left wing stimulus package, massively aimed at the poorest half of society.
It's possible to have that sort of Govt. But not if you prioritise the Culture War.
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''Warning over photo ID law change for UK-wide and English elections
Campaigners say move will hit ethnic minority and working-class communities''
Now why would they want to go and do that, I thought the working class and ethnic minorities were their new friends?
''There was only one conviction for “personation” fraud, which voter ID is meant to prevent, in the UK in 2019.
Approximately 11 million electors (24% of the electorate) hold neither a passport nor a photographic driving licence, the photo ID expected to be mandated under the legislation''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/09/warning-over-photo-id-law-change-for-uk-wide-and-english-elections
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Sydney I see the cons but I find it baffling I could walk in to any polling station knowing someone's name and address and say I'm them and nobody would know.
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There is zero evidence that this move is required, if there was you would think there would have been more than one prosecution? It 's very similar to what the republicans do in the US which has shown to disenfranchise poor and minority voters.
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Hartlepool, constituency voting intention:
CON: 49% (+20)
LAB: 42% (+4)
NIP: 2% (+2)
LDEM: 1% (-3)
REFUK: 1% (-25)
GRN: 1% (+1)
via @Survation
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Will be interesting how NIP do. The idea of what they want in the grand scheme of things isn't feasible but what they can do is push Labour, with them being a left wing party. Seems as though they'll be another voice against FPTP too.
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I was told that in my area of Bradford 75% of all votes cast were postal votes.
Of the votes cast 60% of the electorate with postal votes use them whereas only 10% of those without a postal vote bother to vote on the day. That is a massive shock to me and a damning view of many voters not caring enough.
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Apathy is number 1 on the ticket Idler. It's troubling that there are that many for one reason or another don't vote, maybe everyone should automatically get a postal vote delivered with encouragement to use it.
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Given some of the things heard locally about postal voting in South Shields I wouldn't trust postal voting at all
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Tyke
You make my point for me.
If Labour fights the next election on Culture War and Identity themes, they are f**ked. You have to understand that your insistence on playing by the Culture War rules is basically giving the future to the Right.
Because (at the risk of repeating what should be bleeding obvious) there aren't enough voters in the country to put the socially conservative, economically radical Govt that you want in power.
It's as simple as that.
So you have a choice.
You can prioritize the economics, which requires a Labour Govt, which requires you to grit your teeth and stop banging on about Culture War issues.
Or you can prioritize Culture War issues. In which case, you can forget about ever seeing another left wing Govt in your lifetime.
(NB. Exactly the same argument applies to people on the Left who are socially liberal.)
That is why Starmer desperately wants to neuter the Culture War theme and concentrate on economics.
And meanwhile there is a fascinating example going on over the Atlantic. Biden was castigated by both the socially liberal and socially conservative wings of the Democrat party. And he was bated by Trump who tried to beat him on Culture War issues. But he stuck to a theme that more or less ignored Identity Politics and talked about the need for economic recovery.
And look what he has done. He's started the most enormous Govt spending package since WWII. $1.9trn. Nearly 10% of GDP. It's a massive left wing stimulus package, massively aimed at the poorest half of society.
It's possible to have that sort of Govt. But not if you prioritise the Culture War.
As I was saying.
https://twitter.com/jrhopkin/status/1379366019580432384
THIS. In great big f**king flashing neon letters, 50 feet high.
Biden IS re-inventing centre-left politrics. and according to the polls, his economic policies are wildly popular - 60-70% support for his reflation package. If Labour doesn't learn from this, they don't deserve ever to regain power.
And this line in the follow-up tweet: "You win from the centre and govern from the Left".
Yes, yes, f**king YES!
That's what the Momentum lot need to realise. If they want a left-ist economic policy, they will not get it by insisting that Starmer joins them on the intellectual barricades. You do not win elections by positioning yourself way over to the left, especially on cultural issues. You win elections by appealing to as broad a mass of the population as possible. And as Biden is showing, once you've won that way, THEN you can implement the most radical economic policies for 80 years and still take the voters with you.
Or, you can insist on having a Leader of the Opposition who makes you feel good about the specifics that you care about, and doesn't have a hope of running the country.
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What is it about Starmer's recent polling that convinces you he has a hope of running the country Billy?
I like it that under Corbyn it was the fault of 'the left' that Labour wasn'r polling well.
Now under Starmer its' sill the fault of the left they are not polling well.
If the right wing of the Labour Party insist on attacking a left-wing leader when he is in power, then attacking and alienating left-wing activists when they have power - maybe you should look somewhere else for the problem when they are not polling well.
https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1378993035875393536
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Labour needs to shift perception back to being the party for the working person rather than which ever cause (blm, trans etc) students shout loudest about. As long as it has the image of student protest behind it (and Corbyn was the ultimate student revolutionary) then it is doomed. Why has no socialist Labour government been elected in my lifetime (born 1977) ? Those on the left need to be asking themselves that. Blair was pretty much centre / tory light
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LDR, the notion that people see themselves as working class went out with manufacturing, do you honestly think that the office workers now working from home see themselves as working class?
The days when thousands of workers worked in the same factories, members of the same unions, living locally being members of the same sports and social clubs, and basically having the same political views and doctrines has disappeared and the individuals now see themselves as socially above the working class as we knew it.
The movement for home workers to have a four day working week, have a much more leisure and not so regimented hours will spread the workforce even wider and in smaller social numbers, where the thoughts of the individual will take precedence over the collective.
Non of which helps the traditional Labour Party, who over time will become similar to the Liberal Party and insignificant always attracting the immigrant and socially poorer factions who depend on government benefits but are seen as a burden by many.
The current political and economic situation will only widen the difference in the haves and have nots.
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What is it about Starmer's recent polling that convinces you he has a hope of running the country Billy?
I like it that under Corbyn it was the fault of 'the left' that Labour wasn'r polling well.
Now under Starmer its' sill the fault of the left they are not polling well.
If the right wing of the Labour Party insist on attacking a left-wing leader when he is in power, then attacking and alienating left-wing activists when they have power - maybe you should look somewhere else for the problem when they are not polling well.
https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1378993035875393536
Wilts.
Perhaps you could address what I said in this thread rather than what I didn't say.
I'll repeat it. If Labour plays the game by the Culture War rules, it loses. Regardless of whether it plays socially liberal, socially conservative, or balanced.
Labour can only win if it puts a radical economics package forward and moves the agenda onto that topic.
That is where Corbyn failed. He had the right economic line, but he was too easy to take on, on the Culture War angle.
Starmer and Dodds's economics are nigh on identical to Corbyn's, as they should be because that is economically good for the country, and popular. I simply don't get why the Left doesn't see this, but berates Starmer as a traitor (worse! a Blairite!) for trying to neutralise the Culture War issue. And equally, I don't get what people like Tyke want, insisting on Labour meeting his demands on being anti-minority, without seeing that would alienate the socially liberal Labour supporters.
Both sides need to realise that they can win the internal battle, but doing so will lose the external war.
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What is it about Starmer's recent polling that convinces you he has a hope of running the country Billy?
I like it that under Corbyn it was the fault of 'the left' that Labour wasn'r polling well.
Now under Starmer its' sill the fault of the left they are not polling well.
If the right wing of the Labour Party insist on attacking a left-wing leader when he is in power, then attacking and alienating left-wing activists when they have power - maybe you should look somewhere else for the problem when they are not polling well.
https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1378993035875393536
Wilts.
Perhaps you could address what I said in this thread rather than what I didn't say.
I'll repeat it. If Labour plays the game by the Culture War rules, it loses. Regardless of whether it plays socially liberal, socially conservative, or balanced.
Labour can only win if it puts a radical economics package forward and moves the agenda onto that topic.
That is where Corbyn failed. He had the right economic line, but he was too easy to take on, on the Culture War angle.
Starmer and Dodds's economics are nigh on identical to Corbyn's, as they should be because that is economically good for the country, and popular. I simply don't get why the Left doesn't see this, but berates Starmer as a traitor (worse! a Blairite!) for trying to neutralise the Culture War issue. And equally, I don't get what people like Tyke want, insisting on Labour meeting his demands on being anti-minority, without seeing that would alienate the socially liberal Labour supporters.
Both sides need to realise that they can win the internal battle, but doing so will lose the external war.
Billy, if you can address what I wrote in reply to your original post (inuding Jon Stone's link) you will see why Starmer won't win Hartlepool - or the next GE.
There is no sides in the Labour Party. There is Keir Starmer's Labour Party - and you can read the polls for yourself.
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LDR, the notion that people see themselves as working class went out with manufacturing, do you honestly think that the office workers now working from home see themselves as working class?
The days when thousands of workers worked in the same factories, members of the same unions, living locally being members of the same sports and social clubs, and basically having the same political views and doctrines has disappeared and the individuals now see themselves as socially above the working class as we knew it.
The movement for home workers to have a four day working week, have a much more leisure and not so regimented hours will spread the workforce even wider and in smaller social numbers, where the thoughts of the individual will take precedence over the collective.
Non of which helps the traditional Labour Party, who over time will become similar to the Liberal Party and insignificant always attracting the immigrant and socially poorer factions who depend on government benefits but are seen as a burden by many.
The current political and economic situation will only widen the difference in the haves and have nots.
It's rare (although more common than you might think) that I agree with you Selby but yes pretty much all of that.
It boils down to 'what does Keir Starmer stand for'. I can't tell you and have been saying for months on the other thread that he needs to address that.
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Not massively helpful Wilts.
Your approach seems to have been to uncritically support a leader who took Labour to its worst polling and election results in 100 years (entirely predictable, and predicted well before it happened) then say to the new leadership "your party - your fault if you don't fix it".
I do agree that the question is what Starmer stands for. But I fear that question is only being posed so that people can use the answer to beat him with. Because he will not and must not stand for undiluted Corbynism.
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Back to the original point I was making, we were told by the Sanders wing of the Democrat party that the problem with Biden was that he was too centrist. He wasn't on the side of the people. It wasn't clear what he stood for.
It's very clear what he stood for now. And since he's won an election, what he stands for is more than just a badge to polish up and wear with pride. He's going to be able to start changing the socio-economic direction of America.
There's a lesson there for anyone (currently or recently) in the Labour party if they want to learn it. Like the man said that I quoted, win from the centre; govern from the Left. Which requires some rapid growing up.
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So lie about what you want to be elected on?
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I'd call it emphasis.
Don't paint yourself as a barricade-manning smash-the-stater.
Paint yourself as someone who will do what is necessary for the country. If that happens to be a radical economics package, so be it.
The unpleasant part of that for the Left is that it means consciously distancing yourself from the red flag. And that's not the mood music that the couple of hundred thousand people who joined and took over the party 6 years ago want to hear.
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I'd call it emphasis.
Don't paint yourself as a barricade-manning smash-the-stater.
Paint yourself as someone who will do what is necessary for the country. If that happens to be a radical economics package, so be it.
The unpleasant part of that for the Left is that it means consciously distancing yourself from the red flag. And that's not the mood music that the couple of hundred thousand people who joined and took over the party 6 years ago want to hear.
Unfortunately the bed was made when the party opened the doors to the lunatic fringe
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So lie about what you want to be elected on?
Seemed to work well for the Conservatives
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Ldr.
You are too young to remember it, but Thatcher won in 1979, absolutely not by campaigning on what she was going to do.
If she had campaigned by saying she was going to double interest rates and VAT, put 3 million on the dole and eviscerate large parts of British industry,do you think she would have won in 1979? Of course not. She'd have been hammered. But she went into that election determined to do that if she won, believing it was right for the country.
That's politics. Political romantics like to think that Opposition's win by convincing the electorate that a revolution is required. How Oppositions actually win is by convincing enough people that they'd be better off under them than under the Govt. THEN you can be revolutionary if you think that is what is required.
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So is that why the Labour Party manifestos have seemed to promise the impossible in recent elections BST.
That is not intended to be bait by the way, just a reasonable question.
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So is that why the Labour Party manifestos have seemed to promise the impossible in recent elections BST.
That is not intended to be bait by the way, just a reasonable question.
So why has no socialist Labour party won since 74?
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So is that why the Labour Party manifestos have seemed to promise the impossible in recent elections BST.
That is not intended to be bait by the way, just a reasonable question.
The 2017 one didn't. It was perfectly sensible economics which the Tories painted as dangerous Marxism.
The 2019 one was an absolute car crash with uncosted promises thrown in as mad panics.
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So is that why the Labour Party manifestos have seemed to promise the impossible in recent elections BST.
That is not intended to be bait by the way, just a reasonable question.
So why has no socialist Labour party won since 74?
Entire PhDs have been written on that topic. But the fact that Britain's mass circulation papers are by some way the most virulently right wing in the Western world. It was always going to be difficult for any left of centre party to get a fair hearing when the Mail, Sun and Express were for decades the primary information source of up to 10 million families.
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Well Billy, you have at least confirmed that winning an election has never been about the people voting, but purely the gaining of power a result gives the winning party, and I have always agreed with that always being the main reason for a general election.
And I think a lot more of the general public especially the over 50's who have not come through the modern left wing educational system pushing its propaganda have tumbled to it as well, and is the reason for Labours demise and slow decline into obscurity not helped by the parties insistence of moving away from it's roots and constantly putting forward educated no marks with the airs and graces of college life and a silver spoon pushing on everyone the plight of the unwashed and immigrant communities while totally ignoring the wishes of the communities they constantly called their heartlands and also constantly ignored until election time when they might deem it prudent to visit for half an hour to tell their lap dogs they were being listened to while the rest of the country had millions spent on it.
Now they are at a loss because they are reaping the harvest they have lost.
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Why did the Tories win the last election by a land slide then Billy, when the BBC backed the remain stance consistently every news cast and the papers circulation has taken an all mighty drop in circulation.
Are you blaming a media model that is out of fashion, saying the BBC didn't give it their best shot on the media that rules all others, or can you give credit to the people of the UK for making their own minds up.
Of course The Guardian didn't at any time try to take the remain side of the referendum, not that many would have noticed'
Only a couple on here notice they are still at it.
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So is that why the Labour Party manifestos have seemed to promise the impossible in recent elections BST.
That is not intended to be bait by the way, just a reasonable question.
So why has no socialist Labour party won since 74?
Entire PhDs have been written on that topic. But the fact that Britain's mass circulation papers are by some way the most virulently right wing in the Western world. It was always going to be difficult for any left of centre party to get a fair hearing when the Mail, Sun and Express were for decades the primary information source of up to 10 million families.
True this.
Back in the 1980’s I was very active in the Labour Party. No matter how bad Thatcher was for the country, we lost election after election to a Tory government that seemed to be at war with chunks of British society.
I recall attending a conference fringe meeting where a Woman dared to suggest that the party should accept that the news media held great influence on voters and that maybe we should ‘play the game’ and work with the press rather than see them as the enemy. She was roundly booed by the party masses and she disappeared into obscurity. However, I like to think that she sowed a seed somewhere. Slowly, the party began to understand that if they wanted to win power they’d have to embrace the media, no matter how much it hurt. Very slowly with John Smith and then Tony Blair, they began to work with the media and press (albeit through gritted teeth) until they were beating the Tories at their own game to the point where even The Sun supported Labour.
Whether we like it or not, Labour need to win over the press, who’s natural inclination is right wing overall, before it will win another General Election. Right now there’s a Tory feel good factor due to the success of the vaccine. However, once that passes and we end up seeing who’ll be paying for the cost of Covid-19, that’ll be the time for Labour to take the initiative.
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So how much is weakness of presentation v weakness of policy
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So how much is weakness of presentation v weakness of policy
Good question and one that’s difficult to answer. I guess that it depends how the policy is presented by the press.
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I think the problem right now is labour don't have any policies.
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So is that why the Labour Party manifestos have seemed to promise the impossible in recent elections BST.
That is not intended to be bait by the way, just a reasonable question.
So why has no socialist Labour party won since 74?
Entire PhDs have been written on that topic. But the fact that Britain's mass circulation papers are by some way the most virulently right wing in the Western world. It was always going to be difficult for any left of centre party to get a fair hearing when the Mail, Sun and Express were for decades the primary information source of up to 10 million families.
True this.
Back in the 1980’s I was very active in the Labour Party. No matter how bad Thatcher was for the country, we lost election after election to a Tory government that seemed to be at war with chunks of British society.
I recall attending a conference fringe meeting where a Woman dared to suggest that the party should accept that the news media held great influence on voters and that maybe we should ‘play the game’ and work with the press rather than see them as the enemy. She was roundly booed by the party masses and she disappeared into obscurity. However, I like to think that she sowed a seed somewhere. Slowly, the party began to understand that if they wanted to win power they’d have to embrace the media, no matter how much it hurt. Very slowly with John Smith and then Tony Blair, they began to work with the media and press (albeit through gritted teeth) until they were beating the Tories at their own game to the point where even The Sun supported Labour.
Whether we like it or not, Labour need to win over the press, who’s natural inclination is right wing overall, before it will win another General Election. Right now there’s a Tory feel good factor due to the success of the vaccine. However, once that passes and we end up seeing who’ll be paying for the cost of Covid-19, that’ll be the time for Labour to take the initiative.
Herbert, i think it is fair to say that anyone with any sense will know that the taxpayer will bear the brunt of the costs for the covid bills.
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I think the problem right now is labour don't have any policies.
Fair enough, regarding detail.
But can you point me in the direction of ANY Opposition that has developed detailed policies three years out from an election and won?
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So is that why the Labour Party manifestos have seemed to promise the impossible in recent elections BST.
That is not intended to be bait by the way, just a reasonable question.
So why has no socialist Labour party won since 74?
Entire PhDs have been written on that topic. But the fact that Britain's mass circulation papers are by some way the most virulently right wing in the Western world. It was always going to be difficult for any left of centre party to get a fair hearing when the Mail, Sun and Express were for decades the primary information source of up to 10 million families.
True this.
Back in the 1980’s I was very active in the Labour Party. No matter how bad Thatcher was for the country, we lost election after election to a Tory government that seemed to be at war with chunks of British society.
I recall attending a conference fringe meeting where a Woman dared to suggest that the party should accept that the news media held great influence on voters and that maybe we should ‘play the game’ and work with the press rather than see them as the enemy. She was roundly booed by the party masses and she disappeared into obscurity. However, I like to think that she sowed a seed somewhere. Slowly, the party began to understand that if they wanted to win power they’d have to embrace the media, no matter how much it hurt. Very slowly with John Smith and then Tony Blair, they began to work with the media and press (albeit through gritted teeth) until they were beating the Tories at their own game to the point where even The Sun supported Labour.
Whether we like it or not, Labour need to win over the press, who’s natural inclination is right wing overall, before it will win another General Election. Right now there’s a Tory feel good factor due to the success of the vaccine. However, once that passes and we end up seeing who’ll be paying for the cost of Covid-19, that’ll be the time for Labour to take the initiative.
Herbert, i think it is fair to say that anyone with any sense will know that the taxpayer will bear the brunt of the costs for the covid bills.
AKA "Everybody".
The days when "the taxpayer" referred to a particular subset of the Electorate are way off in the far past.
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So is that why the Labour Party manifestos have seemed to promise the impossible in recent elections BST.
That is not intended to be bait by the way, just a reasonable question.
So why has no socialist Labour party won since 74?
Entire PhDs have been written on that topic. But the fact that Britain's mass circulation papers are by some way the most virulently right wing in the Western world. It was always going to be difficult for any left of centre party to get a fair hearing when the Mail, Sun and Express were for decades the primary information source of up to 10 million families.
True this.
Back in the 1980’s I was very active in the Labour Party. No matter how bad Thatcher was for the country, we lost election after election to a Tory government that seemed to be at war with chunks of British society.
I recall attending a conference fringe meeting where a Woman dared to suggest that the party should accept that the news media held great influence on voters and that maybe we should ‘play the game’ and work with the press rather than see them as the enemy. She was roundly booed by the party masses and she disappeared into obscurity. However, I like to think that she sowed a seed somewhere. Slowly, the party began to understand that if they wanted to win power they’d have to embrace the media, no matter how much it hurt. Very slowly with John Smith and then Tony Blair, they began to work with the media and press (albeit through gritted teeth) until they were beating the Tories at their own game to the point where even The Sun supported Labour.
Whether we like it or not, Labour need to win over the press, who’s natural inclination is right wing overall, before it will win another General Election. Right now there’s a Tory feel good factor due to the success of the vaccine. However, once that passes and we end up seeing who’ll be paying for the cost of Covid-19, that’ll be the time for Labour to take the initiative.
Herbert, i think it is fair to say that anyone with any sense will know that the taxpayer will bear the brunt of the costs for the covid bills.
But it depends whether ‘the brunt’ of those costs are fairly distributed Hound.
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It's actually indicative of a big economic blindspot to assume that the "costs" have to be paid back in any conventional sense. It's simply not possible to pay off £0.5-1trn of debt by raising taxes. It would mean putting income tax up by 5% for 50 years, just to pay off the capital.
No country does that. What you have to do is grow your way out of the debt, so the capital goes down as a proportion of your national income. And the only way to get the sort of growth rates we need is to have large, sustained Govt investment in the economy. Precisely the policies that were (wrongly) called "Marxist" at the last election.
I'll put a marker down now. Biden is proposing a stimulus package worth a massive 10% of US GDP over the next two years. Sunak is proposing that our equivalent will be only 4% of UK GDP over the next 4 years.
I'm happy to have a decent sized charity bet that US growth greatly exceeds ours for the next 3-4 years, and that despite borrowing more money for the stimulus, that growth will put them in a better position to deal with it.
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By the way. If Starmer is going to have a chance at the next election, he needs to go all in on saying Biden has it right and Sunak has it wrong. The facts will support that prediction from 2023 onwards.
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Hound. For the record, that "blind spot" comment wasn't a personal dig. More a complaint about the very poor level of political/economic debate in this country. It's obsessed with fallacies about "balancing the books" that simply do not apply to huge national economies. But you'll hear that line trotted out over and over again by Sunak as we emerge from the COVID crisis.
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There is really no other way to decribe what Biden has achieved but stunning and who knew? slow and steady throughout the election keeping it simple. Those working at a local level to overcome all the obstacles to get people into the polling booths was massive, and he looked all the while as though he was going to be another establishment figure, that picture has certainly changed.
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It is so radical, what Biden is doing, that people are not really taking it on board.
What he is doing, is cleaning out 40 years of failed voodoo economics, and returning to what we always knew worked, but somehow contrived to forget.
With a bit of luck against unknown events, this could get America out of the nightmare it has been in, where average wages after inflation are the same now that they were 35 years ago, while the wages of the very richest have rocketed.
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It's actually indicative of a big economic blindspot to assume that the "costs" have to be paid back in any conventional sense. It's simply not possible to pay off £0.5-1trn of debt by raising taxes. It would mean putting income tax up by 5% for 50 years, just to pay off the capital.
No country does that. What you have to do is grow your way out of the debt, so the capital goes down as a proportion of your national income. And the only way to get the sort of growth rates we need is to have large, sustained Govt investment in the economy. Precisely the policies that were (wrongly) called "Marxist" at the last election.
I'll put a marker down now. Biden is proposing a stimulus package worth a massive 10% of US GDP over the next two years. Sunak is proposing that our equivalent will be only 4% of UK GDP over the next 4 years.
I'm happy to have a decent sized charity bet that US growth greatly exceeds ours for the next 3-4 years, and that despite borrowing more money for the stimulus, that growth will put them in a better position to deal with it.
BST, the taxpayer doesn’t just pay through income tax etc and I wasn’t suggesting that he (she) would be.
There are things like VAT etc and of course I think that Inheritance Taxes will go up.
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No Hound, I get that. I was just giving some idea of what the tax burden would be if we actually intended to pay off the cost of COVID measures through tax increases. It cannot and will not be done. Although the Tories will not ever say that, because their entire economic philosophy for the past 13 years has been about not incurring debt because we have to pay it back.
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I think the problem right now is labour don't have any policies.
Fair enough, regarding detail.
But can you point me in the direction of ANY Opposition that has developed detailed policies three years out from an election and won?
No probably not and that's fine if that's their choice. The point is we don't yet know what Kier Starmer's policies will look like and he doesn't have that charisma that means policy isn't his most important tool.
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Having one party with such a large majority is no good for the country, I take no joy in the demise of the Labour party but understand why, simplifying it they are supported, run and led by educated idiots constantly pushing their thoughts on utopia which is as far removed from real life as life on Mars.
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Having one party with such a large majority is no good for the country, I take no joy in the demise of the Labour party but understand why, simplifying it they are supported, run and led by educated idiots constantly pushing their thoughts on utopia which is as far removed from real life as life on Mars.
Unlike of course the Tory Party...
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Not massively helpful Wilts.
Your approach seems to have been to uncritically support a leader who took Labour to its worst polling and election results in 100 years (entirely predictable, and predicted well before it happened) then say to the new leadership "your party - your fault if you don't fix it".
I do agree that the question is what Starmer stands for. But I fear that question is only being posed so that people can use the answer to beat him with. Because he will not and must not stand for undiluted Corbynism.
And you are ignoring the strategy of the current Labour Party.
There is no-one else to blame over the current running, polling and public perception of the party than the people in charge of it.
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Starmer apparently struggling in wake of BJ's vaccine 'success' ......... I'm just putting out there folks - don't shoot the messenger...
https://digitpatrox.com/starmer-struggles-to-counter-johnsons-vaccine-bounce-as-polls-loom/
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Not 'shootin' talking MM, we have had two state elections here amidst covid and the encumbants have romped home especially WA, the thoughts behind this are that the government of the day hogs the airways (so to speak) and the opposition cannot get a word in and that during times of danger, wars, pandemics etc people are reluctant to change horses, and is why many were nervous about trump making a move for the red button.
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Not 'shootin' talking MM, we have had two state elections here amidst covid and the encumbants have romped home especially WA, the thoughts behind this are that the government of the day hogs the airways (so to speak) and the opposition cannot get a word in and that during times of danger, wars, pandemics etc people are reluctant to change horses, and is why many were nervous about trump making a move for the red button.
I'd agree with the majority of that Sydney..... however, the fact that his Ipsos Mori approval score has dived must cause concern...especially considering the fact he's in opposition to a bumbling idiot...
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Not only that MM an inverate liar, racist, crony-in-chief etc but if we were talking about people examining the fact and making a resaoned decision for their own and country's future the tories would never get on but there you go.
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Starmer apparently struggling in wake of BJ's vaccine 'success' ......... I'm just putting out there folks - don't shoot the messenger...
https://digitpatrox.com/starmer-struggles-to-counter-johnsons-vaccine-bounce-as-polls-loom/
Love that article MM. It reads like it's been written by an AI with learning difficulties.
"Shadow cupboard" for "shadow cabinet".
West Mids mayor "Andy Avenue" (It's Andy Street.)
"Social gathering" for "party".
But yes I agree that Starmer has major problems. What I'm less sure about is what he can do about it.
Back in November, Starmer was consistently warning that the plans to open up for Xmas were dangerous.
He was consistently warning that going back to the Tier system in December was dangerous.
He was bang on right on both issues, and Johnson's policy decisions on those issues have led directly to an additional 30,000 avoidable deaths.
If people still support Johnson, and lazily repeat the "Captain Hindsight" jibe in those circumstances, I'm struggling to think what else can be done. Maybe we deserve Johnson?
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Starmer appears to be suffering from Swinson syndrome, in that the more people see of him the less they like him. He made great strides at first with his air of managerial competence, there's no denying that, but his slump in the polls set in well before the vaccine program really started rolling out. I am genuinely not sure how he remedies that.
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Half of the problem is personality. He doesn't have one and in an age where image is uber-important that's a massive negative factor
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Starmer is under intense pressure from all sides and it's hard to think about draining the swamp ....... but any increase in vote percentage at all should be seen as a positive with the towns fund being used as an electoral slush fund it's hard to see where he can find clear air and a break. Business are feeling the pinch and are making noises, this is not going to improve any time soon, when the job support is is pulled and the full effect of brexit are realised the populace may view this government in a different light.
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This blog piece from the UK's leading professor of macroeconomics goes right to the core of the basic problem Labour has.
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2021/04/labour-should-start-contesting-tory.html?m=1
Tl:dr.
The Tories have historically been appalling at running the economy, but the public perception is that they are very good and it is Labour that is incompetent.
That idea about Labour's supposed incompetence is partly due to a very right wing mass media, but also Labour have been shite for a decade in not countering the line that they were to blame for the 2008-10 crash. Milliband wanted to ignore it. Corbyn basically laid into anything Labour had done pre-2015.
Labour has got to start being more aggressive on the economic argument. And they have the example over the Atlantic to point to. Being timid on this subject just will not work.
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Starmer apparently struggling in wake of BJ's vaccine 'success' ......... I'm just putting out there folks - don't shoot the messenger...
https://digitpatrox.com/starmer-struggles-to-counter-johnsons-vaccine-bounce-as-polls-loom/
Love that article MM. It reads like it's been written by an AI with learning difficulties.
"Shadow cupboard" for "shadow cabinet".
West Mids mayor "Andy Avenue" (It's Andy Street.)
"Social gathering" for "party".
But yes I agree that Starmer has major problems. What I'm less sure about is what he can do about it.
Back in November, Starmer was consistently warning that the plans to open up for Xmas were dangerous.
He was consistently warning that going back to the Tier system in December was dangerous.
He was bang on right on both issues, and Johnson's policy decisions on those issues have led directly to an additional 30,000 avoidable deaths.
If people still support Johnson, and lazily repeat the "Captain Hindsight" jibe in those circumstances, I'm struggling to think what else can be done. Maybe we deserve Johnson?
most of the time he waited until boris had said there would be tougher measures before he said anything,he just sat on the fence im sure I read a article around Xmas in the independent on this issue I’ll try and find it and post
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https://www.independent.co.uk/independentpremium/voices/keir-starmer-boris-johnson-coronavirus-lockdown-b1782619.html
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This blog piece from the UK's leading professor of macroeconomics goes right to the core of the basic problem Labour has.
https://mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2021/04/labour-should-start-contesting-tory.html?m=1
Tl:dr.
The Tories have historically been appalling at running the economy, but the public perception is that they are very good and it is Labour that is incompetent.
That idea about Labour's supposed incompetence is partly due to a very right wing mass media, but also Labour have been shite for a decade in not countering the line that they were to blame for the 2008-10 crash. Milliband wanted to ignore it. Corbyn basically laid into anything Labour had done pre-2015.
Labour has got to start being more aggressive on the economic argument. And they have the example over the Atlantic to point to. Being timid on this subject just will not work.
Yep, and it's not a complicated argument either it just needs some repetition and when it is inevitably challenged the facts can be referred to, that's the good bit about facts is they don't change it's the perception.
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Can you imagine the headlines if John McDonnell had looked in giving a company Tony Blair had £20mill shares invested in favourable treatment and £m's of taxpayers money just before they went bust - it wouldn't be off the front page of every paper for days and leading the news bulletins.
But Sunack and Cameron - nah nowt to see here....
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The point is about how people see the Labour Party thou wilts, rather than focus on the tories people should try and change how labour are seen
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The point is about how people see the Labour Party thou wilts, rather than focus on the tories people should try and change how labour are seen
Isn't that the point Wilts just made bp?
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I don’t no maybe I’m sure he will reply and say if it was
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You only have to look at the debate between bst and tyke to see different views on the Labour Party at the minute
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My point was more on how the media portrays politicians and politicial stories from the different parties.
If you are only getting your news from right-wing press or Tory friendly media outlets then nohing the Labour Party can do will ever change your view of them - because those outlets will only ever portray Labour in bad light. Whilst ignoring corruption in/by the Tories.
The current Sunak/Cameron/Greensill story being a prime example.
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My point was more on how the media portrays politicians and politicial stories from the different parties.
If you are only getting your news from right-wing press or Tory friendly media outlets then nohing the Labour Party can do will ever change your view of them - because those outlets will only ever portray Labour in bad light. Whilst ignoring corruption in/by the Tories.
The current Sunak/Cameron/Greensill story being a prime example.
you are right wilts, but if you read a lot of the comments in the independent the same reasoning would apply to them? The only way Labour will win again if the can somehow pull together and stop the infighting, is that possible in the near future I doubt but you never no
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You only have to look at the debate between bst and tyke to see different views on the Labour Party at the minute
My own view Bpool is that Labour should go and try and gain more Metropolitan votes or even try and get Scotland back and stop chasing votes in the former Red Wall .
If the Party has become what it is then it would make sense to me for them to campaign on issues that come naturally to them rather than seek the vote of folks like me .
I cannot see the Red Wall returning anytime soon to Labour , I don't necessarily believe it's an area the Tories will keep but it won't be going back to Labour either .
Let them campaign on a return to the EU for instance , what ever floats their boat and comes natural to them and they no longer have to tolerate the likes of me .
My Trade Union looks as though it's going to be cutting its funding to the Labour Party and that's my cue to stop voting Labour too , it's been coming for many years now .
The Party will have to soon seek donors to prop them up financially with the implications that route brings but if that attracts more of the Metropolitan vote then fair enough it may well be beneficial to do so .
It seems pretty clear to me looking at the Hartlepool polls that it's pretty much over for the Labour Party in the old industrial heartlands and it's probably best that Labour recognises it and goes after votes it's more likely to get .
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If people are willing to swing from a party that's always been on the left of center, coming up with leftist ideas such as the NHS and move to a party thats always been on the right then it perhaps says more about those people? Perhaps, the red wall seat Boomers only gained dislike for the Tories due to the mines, etc then as times gone on they've become less against the party and more conservative (lower c) themselves as they've got older.
Surely people have their own beliefs and ideologies on how a country should be run, me personally I like to see everyone to have free health care as no one should suffer medically due to poor luck (such as being made redundant due to Covid), a roof over their head, the ability to become a functioning member of society and when a country is in a financial crisis, you don't stop spending, you spend more to get the country back on its feet and people in jobs.
Other people may be more inclined to wanting to protect their own investments and not looking further than them and their own.
The latter isn't Labour ideology so there is no point in chasing those voters.
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You only have to look at the debate between bst and tyke to see different views on the Labour Party at the minute
My own view Bpool is that Labour should go and try and gain more Metropolitan votes or even try and get Scotland back and stop chasing votes in the former Red Wall .
If the Party has become what it is then it would make sense to me for them to campaign on issues that come naturally to them rather than seek the vote of folks like me .
I cannot see the Red Wall returning anytime soon to Labour , I don't necessarily believe it's an area the Tories will keep but it won't be going back to Labour either .
Let them campaign on a return to the EU for instance , what ever floats their boat and comes natural to them and they no longer have to tolerate the likes of me .
My Trade Union looks as though it's going to be cutting its funding to the Labour Party and that's my cue to stop voting Labour too , it's been coming for many years now .
The Party will have to soon seek donors to prop them up financially with the implications that route brings but if that attracts more of the Metropolitan vote then fair enough it may well be beneficial to do so .
It seems pretty clear to me looking at the Hartlepool polls that it's pretty much over for the Labour Party in the old industrial heartlands and it's probably best that Labour recognises it and goes after votes it's more likely to get .
If you are happy to abandon the Labour Party, then you will be happy for a Tory govt in perpetuity
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You only have to look at the debate between bst and tyke to see different views on the Labour Party at the minute
My own view Bpool is that Labour should go and try and gain more Metropolitan votes or even try and get Scotland back and stop chasing votes in the former Red Wall .
If the Party has become what it is then it would make sense to me for them to campaign on issues that come naturally to them rather than seek the vote of folks like me .
I cannot see the Red Wall returning anytime soon to Labour , I don't necessarily believe it's an area the Tories will keep but it won't be going back to Labour either .
Let them campaign on a return to the EU for instance , what ever floats their boat and comes natural to them and they no longer have to tolerate the likes of me .
My Trade Union looks as though it's going to be cutting its funding to the Labour Party and that's my cue to stop voting Labour too , it's been coming for many years now .
The Party will have to soon seek donors to prop them up financially with the implications that route brings but if that attracts more of the Metropolitan vote then fair enough it may well be beneficial to do so .
It seems pretty clear to me looking at the Hartlepool polls that it's pretty much over for the Labour Party in the old industrial heartlands and it's probably best that Labour recognises it and goes after votes it's more likely to get .
If you are happy to abandon the Labour Party, then you will be happy for a Tory govt in perpetuity
If I was happy to see a Tory government then I'd vote for one Filo and it's not something I've ever done or even likely to do .
I just think it's better for the party to go in the direction it naturally wants to go without having to tolerate the likes of me in the old industrial heartlands .
If it's current guise stacks up then there's plenty of votes to go for without the former Red Wall holding it back which clearly seems to be the case .
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What do you look for in policies then Tyke?
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Starmer apparently struggling in wake of BJ's vaccine 'success' ......... I'm just putting out there folks - don't shoot the messenger...
https://digitpatrox.com/starmer-struggles-to-counter-johnsons-vaccine-bounce-as-polls-loom/
Love that article MM. It reads like it's been written by an AI with learning difficulties.
"Shadow cupboard" for "shadow cabinet".
West Mids mayor "Andy Avenue" (It's Andy Street.)
"Social gathering" for "party".
But yes I agree that Starmer has major problems. What I'm less sure about is what he can do about it.
Back in November, Starmer was consistently warning that the plans to open up for Xmas were dangerous.
He was consistently warning that going back to the Tier system in December was dangerous.
He was bang on right on both issues, and Johnson's policy decisions on those issues have led directly to an additional 30,000 avoidable deaths.
If people still support Johnson, and lazily repeat the "Captain Hindsight" jibe in those circumstances, I'm struggling to think what else can be done. Maybe we deserve Johnson?
Totally agree with you about the writing of that article. Absolute gobbledegook.
The writer must have been on crack.
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My dislike of Stabber started when he was interviewed on Waterloo Station on his way to undermine the UK Government meeting with the EU leaders undermining a democratic vote to leave the EU, and has grown since.
If we had gone back to hanging people like him with his mates then for treason then it would have saved any dislike building up, and a lot would be a lot quieter about it now,
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You only have to look at the debate between bst and tyke to see different views on the Labour Party at the minute
My own view Bpool is that Labour should go and try and gain more Metropolitan votes or even try and get Scotland back and stop chasing votes in the former Red Wall .
If the Party has become what it is then it would make sense to me for them to campaign on issues that come naturally to them rather than seek the vote of folks like me .
I cannot see the Red Wall returning anytime soon to Labour , I don't necessarily believe it's an area the Tories will keep but it won't be going back to Labour either .
Let them campaign on a return to the EU for instance , what ever floats their boat and comes natural to them and they no longer have to tolerate the likes of me .
My Trade Union looks as though it's going to be cutting its funding to the Labour Party and that's my cue to stop voting Labour too , it's been coming for many years now .
The Party will have to soon seek donors to prop them up financially with the implications that route brings but if that attracts more of the Metropolitan vote then fair enough it may well be beneficial to do so .
It seems pretty clear to me looking at the Hartlepool polls that it's pretty much over for the Labour Party in the old industrial heartlands and it's probably best that Labour recognises it and goes after votes it's more likely to get .
If you are happy to abandon the Labour Party, then you will be happy for a Tory govt in perpetuity
If I was happy to see a Tory government then I'd vote for one Filo and it's not something I've ever done or even likely to do .
I just think it's better for the party to go in the direction it naturally wants to go without having to tolerate the likes of me in the old industrial heartlands .
If it's current guise stacks up then there's plenty of votes to go for without the former Red Wall holding it back which clearly seems to be the case .
You’ve no need to vote for the Tories when you abandon the main opposition, that abandoned vote is a vote to keep them in power, I just don’t see why the likes of you and the Momentum lot can’t see that, the Labour Party has to build from a position of strength not weakness
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You only have to look at the debate between bst and tyke to see different views on the Labour Party at the minute
My own view Bpool is that Labour should go and try and gain more Metropolitan votes or even try and get Scotland back and stop chasing votes in the former Red Wall .
If the Party has become what it is then it would make sense to me for them to campaign on issues that come naturally to them rather than seek the vote of folks like me .
I cannot see the Red Wall returning anytime soon to Labour , I don't necessarily believe it's an area the Tories will keep but it won't be going back to Labour either .
Let them campaign on a return to the EU for instance , what ever floats their boat and comes natural to them and they no longer have to tolerate the likes of me .
My Trade Union looks as though it's going to be cutting its funding to the Labour Party and that's my cue to stop voting Labour too , it's been coming for many years now .
The Party will have to soon seek donors to prop them up financially with the implications that route brings but if that attracts more of the Metropolitan vote then fair enough it may well be beneficial to do so .
It seems pretty clear to me looking at the Hartlepool polls that it's pretty much over for the Labour Party in the old industrial heartlands and it's probably best that Labour recognises it and goes after votes it's more likely to get .
If you are happy to abandon the Labour Party, then you will be happy for a Tory govt in perpetuity
If I was happy to see a Tory government then I'd vote for one Filo and it's not something I've ever done or even likely to do .
I just think it's better for the party to go in the direction it naturally wants to go without having to tolerate the likes of me in the old industrial heartlands .
If it's current guise stacks up then there's plenty of votes to go for without the former Red Wall holding it back which clearly seems to be the case .
You’ve no need to vote for the Tories when you abandon the main opposition, that abandoned vote is a vote to keep them in power, I just don’t see why the likes of you and the Momentum lot can’t see that, the Labour Party has to build from a position of strength not weakness
This really highlights a frustration with the FPTP system of voting and I think this is a growing frustration. Even with those on the right, who do fall in line and vote tory.
Perhaps Starmer ought to make a firm commitment to implement proportional representation?
That might bring enough people to vote Labour again simply to change things in the future.
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You only have to look at the debate between bst and tyke to see different views on the Labour Party at the minute
My own view Bpool is that Labour should go and try and gain more Metropolitan votes or even try and get Scotland back and stop chasing votes in the former Red Wall .
If the Party has become what it is then it would make sense to me for them to campaign on issues that come naturally to them rather than seek the vote of folks like me .
I cannot see the Red Wall returning anytime soon to Labour , I don't necessarily believe it's an area the Tories will keep but it won't be going back to Labour either .
Let them campaign on a return to the EU for instance , what ever floats their boat and comes natural to them and they no longer have to tolerate the likes of me .
My Trade Union looks as though it's going to be cutting its funding to the Labour Party and that's my cue to stop voting Labour too , it's been coming for many years now .
The Party will have to soon seek donors to prop them up financially with the implications that route brings but if that attracts more of the Metropolitan vote then fair enough it may well be beneficial to do so .
It seems pretty clear to me looking at the Hartlepool polls that it's pretty much over for the Labour Party in the old industrial heartlands and it's probably best that Labour recognises it and goes after votes it's more likely to get .
If you are happy to abandon the Labour Party, then you will be happy for a Tory govt in perpetuity
If I was happy to see a Tory government then I'd vote for one Filo and it's not something I've ever done or even likely to do .
I just think it's better for the party to go in the direction it naturally wants to go without having to tolerate the likes of me in the old industrial heartlands .
If it's current guise stacks up then there's plenty of votes to go for without the former Red Wall holding it back which clearly seems to be the case .
You’ve no need to vote for the Tories when you abandon the main opposition, that abandoned vote is a vote to keep them in power, I just don’t see why the likes of you and the Momentum lot can’t see that, the Labour Party has to build from a position of strength not weakness
This really highlights a frustration with the FPTP system of voting and I think this is a growing frustration. Even with those on the right, who do fall in line and vote tory.
Perhaps Starmer ought to make a firm commitment to implement proportional representation?
That might bring enough people to vote Labour again simply to change things in the future.
did they not have a referendum on this 10 years ago? It feels like let’s have a referendum but if we don’t get the result we want let’s have another
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The referendum was for Alternative Vote
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The referendum was for Alternative Vote
yes I no but if they had a new vote and fptp won again then people will demand a vote for something else next
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Bpool, you surely can't believe people are fairly represented currently under FPTP? Our current system in some cases makes the majority of votes pointless. In Yorkshire in 2019, we had 54 seats available and ended up with 28 Labour seats (from 990,000 votes) and 26 Conservative seats (from 1,097,000 votes). The Lib Dems got 220,000 votes and got 0 seats, that isn't a fair representation. Under PR in 2019 for Yorkshire -
Labour - 21 seats
Tories - 23 seats
Lib Dems - 4 seats
Greens - 1 seat
Other - Potentially 4 seats
It means you can live in Sheffield Central, which is one of the safest Labour seats around and actually vote for Greens, Tories, etc and still feel like your vote is heard.
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You only have to look at the debate between bst and tyke to see different views on the Labour Party at the minute
My own view Bpool is that Labour should go and try and gain more Metropolitan votes or even try and get Scotland back and stop chasing votes in the former Red Wall .
If the Party has become what it is then it would make sense to me for them to campaign on issues that come naturally to them rather than seek the vote of folks like me .
I cannot see the Red Wall returning anytime soon to Labour , I don't necessarily believe it's an area the Tories will keep but it won't be going back to Labour either .
Let them campaign on a return to the EU for instance , what ever floats their boat and comes natural to them and they no longer have to tolerate the likes of me .
My Trade Union looks as though it's going to be cutting its funding to the Labour Party and that's my cue to stop voting Labour too , it's been coming for many years now .
The Party will have to soon seek donors to prop them up financially with the implications that route brings but if that attracts more of the Metropolitan vote then fair enough it may well be beneficial to do so .
It seems pretty clear to me looking at the Hartlepool polls that it's pretty much over for the Labour Party in the old industrial heartlands and it's probably best that Labour recognises it and goes after votes it's more likely to get .
If you are happy to abandon the Labour Party, then you will be happy for a Tory govt in perpetuity
If I was happy to see a Tory government then I'd vote for one Filo and it's not something I've ever done or even likely to do .
I just think it's better for the party to go in the direction it naturally wants to go without having to tolerate the likes of me in the old industrial heartlands .
If it's current guise stacks up then there's plenty of votes to go for without the former Red Wall holding it back which clearly seems to be the case .
You’ve no need to vote for the Tories when you abandon the main opposition, that abandoned vote is a vote to keep them in power, I just don’t see why the likes of you and the Momentum lot can’t see that, the Labour Party has to build from a position of strength not weakness
It's very difficult to vote Labour or even support it and that includes financially if you despise the people within it .
Things have finally come to a head when my trade union was lambasted by the party for instructing a poll to be carried out by a credible company in Hartlepool .
It was accused of aiding the Tory Party and treachery , clearly because the findings in the poll showed the Labour Party in a very poor position .
Absolutely how dare you criticise how my Trade Union spends it's own money , who do you people think you are ? .
You've had millions of pounds out of the political fund in the past and generally wasted the majority of it .
You won't be getting anymore until you start representing our members far more effectively than you've shown in the past and clearly by the Hartlepool findings nowts changed .
That's the reason my union asked for the poll to be done , we are no longer prepared to throw money at a party that does nothing with it .
It's the final straw for me and the union will represent it's members and fight the tory government and it's corporate tentacles outside of the Labour Party and not through it .
So if you believe that I'm too aiding a Tory government then I'd kindly suggest you factor in what I've just typed .
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Bpool, you surely can't believe people are fairly represented currently under FPTP? Our current system in some cases makes the majority of votes pointless. In Yorkshire in 2019, we had 54 seats available and ended up with 28 Labour seats (from 990,000 votes) and 26 Conservative seats (from 1,097,000 votes). The Lib Dems got 220,000 votes and got 0 seats, that isn't a fair representation. Under PR in 2019 for Yorkshire -
Labour - 21 seats
Tories - 23 seats
Lib Dems - 4 seats
Greens - 1 seat
Other - Potentially 4 seats
It means you can live in Sheffield Central, which is one of the safest Labour seats around and actually vote for Greens, Tories, etc and still feel like your vote is heard.
it’s probably not fair no, but me personally would rather have one party in charge rather than a coalition, if they can come up with a system that all parties are happy with then fair enough change it
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Tyke.
You are precisely the problem I wrote about last week.
"If I can't have it exactly as I want it, I'm not playing. And if that means a Tory Govt forever, tough."
I truly do not understand you. Preferring all of nothing over a fraction of something.
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Bpool.
Here's the problem. Never in the past 50 years have more than 50% of the electorate voted for right wing parties. But we have had right wing Govts for 33 of those 50 years.
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You only have to look at the debate between bst and tyke to see different views on the Labour Party at the minute
My own view Bpool is that Labour should go and try and gain more Metropolitan votes or even try and get Scotland back and stop chasing votes in the former Red Wall .
If the Party has become what it is then it would make sense to me for them to campaign on issues that come naturally to them rather than seek the vote of folks like me .
I cannot see the Red Wall returning anytime soon to Labour , I don't necessarily believe it's an area the Tories will keep but it won't be going back to Labour either .
Let them campaign on a return to the EU for instance , what ever floats their boat and comes natural to them and they no longer have to tolerate the likes of me .
My Trade Union looks as though it's going to be cutting its funding to the Labour Party and that's my cue to stop voting Labour too , it's been coming for many years now .
The Party will have to soon seek donors to prop them up financially with the implications that route brings but if that attracts more of the Metropolitan vote then fair enough it may well be beneficial to do so .
It seems pretty clear to me looking at the Hartlepool polls that it's pretty much over for the Labour Party in the old industrial heartlands and it's probably best that Labour recognises it and goes after votes it's more likely to get .
If you are happy to abandon the Labour Party, then you will be happy for a Tory govt in perpetuity
If I was happy to see a Tory government then I'd vote for one Filo and it's not something I've ever done or even likely to do .
I just think it's better for the party to go in the direction it naturally wants to go without having to tolerate the likes of me in the old industrial heartlands .
If it's current guise stacks up then there's plenty of votes to go for without the former Red Wall holding it back which clearly seems to be the case .
You’ve no need to vote for the Tories when you abandon the main opposition, that abandoned vote is a vote to keep them in power, I just don’t see why the likes of you and the Momentum lot can’t see that, the Labour Party has to build from a position of strength not weakness
It's very difficult to vote Labour or even support it and that includes financially if you despise the people within it .
Things have finally come to a head when my trade union was lambasted by the party for instructing a poll to be carried out by a credible company in Hartlepool .
It was accused of aiding the Tory Party and treachery , clearly because the findings in the poll showed the Labour Party in a very poor position .
Absolutely how dare you criticise how my Trade Union spends it's own money , who do you people think you are ? .
You've had millions of pounds out of the political fund in the past and generally wasted the majority of it .
You won't be getting anymore until you start representing our members far more effectively than you've shown in the past and clearly by the Hartlepool findings nowts changed .
That's the reason my union asked for the poll to be done , we are no longer prepared to throw money at a party that does nothing with it .
It's the final straw for me and the union will represent it's members and fight the tory government and it's corporate tentacles outside of the Labour Party and not through it .
So if you believe that I'm too aiding a Tory government then I'd kindly suggest you factor in what I've just typed .
You are aiding the Tory vote by splitting the opposition vote, why are you blind to that?
Do you not despise the Tories more?
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Bpool.
Here's the problem. Never in the past 50 years have more than 50% of the electorate voted for right wing parties. But we have had right wing Govts for 33 of those 50 years.
I agree it’s probably not fair, would you argue for a change in the boundaries as they benefit labour then to make it fairer?
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Bpool.
Here's the problem. Never in the past 50 years have more than 50% of the electorate voted for right wing parties. But we have had right wing Govts for 33 of those 50 years.
I agree it’s probably not fair, would you argue for a change in the boundaries as they benefit labour then to make it fairer?
The boundaries were changed, by the Conservatives, to benefit the Conservatives
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Tyke
I take it your Union is UNITE, they should take a leaf out of their name, have you questioned Mcklusky’s cronyism over that £98m Hotel cintract?
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Boundaries should be a cross-party issue. Not done exclusively by one party.
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Tyke.
You are precisely the problem I wrote about last week.
"If I can't have it exactly as I want it, I'm not playing. And if that means a Tory Govt forever, tough."
I truly do not understand you. Preferring all of nothing over a fraction of something.
I've already provided a solution to PROBLEMS like myself for the Labour Party Billy .
Go chase the votes Labour are more likely to get and let's cut the cr@p shall we , plenty of votes in Scotland and the city's on a pro EU ticket and identity politics .
I'm way past backing this two legged horse and I'm done with it after the events this week .
The only people who contribute to Tory governments are the Labour Party themselves and they have a GE and Referendum record to factually prove it .
The truth is Starmer and his minions don't really want to listen to the likes of me they just simply want my vote and union money which is apparent from your posts and that of Filo's .
Well it's over so go be what you really are and stop fecking about .
Sturgeon's on her ass in Scotland and they are pro EU up there , what you waiting for ? .
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Tyke
I take it your Union is UNITE, they should take a leaf out of their name, have you questioned Mcklusky’s cronyism over that £98m Hotel cintract?
I'm in the CWU Filo .
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Bpool, you surely can't believe people are fairly represented currently under FPTP? Our current system in some cases makes the majority of votes pointless. In Yorkshire in 2019, we had 54 seats available and ended up with 28 Labour seats (from 990,000 votes) and 26 Conservative seats (from 1,097,000 votes). The Lib Dems got 220,000 votes and got 0 seats, that isn't a fair representation. Under PR in 2019 for Yorkshire -
Labour - 21 seats
Tories - 23 seats
Lib Dems - 4 seats
Greens - 1 seat
Other - Potentially 4 seats
It means you can live in Sheffield Central, which is one of the safest Labour seats around and actually vote for Greens, Tories, etc and still feel like your vote is heard.
it’s probably not fair no, but me personally would rather have one party in charge rather than a coalition, if they can come up with a system that all parties are happy with then fair enough change it
That's where you and I differ. Giving one group a lot of control can be very damaging I think.
No, better to lessen their ability to screw things up and force politicians to have to negotiate hard for radical changes.
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Tyke.
With respect, you're acting like a petulant kid.
What do YOU want a party to stand for if it is going to get your vote?
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Bpool.
Here's the problem. Never in the past 50 years have more than 50% of the electorate voted for right wing parties. But we have had right wing Govts for 33 of those 50 years.
BST, In the last firstly years when Labour have won, have they ever had more that 50% of the vote.
Just curious.
I just googled it and it says that even in the landslide victory of 1997 they only got 43.2% of the vote.
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No they haven't Hound. But that is not the point I was making.
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Bpool.
Here's the problem. Never in the past 50 years have more than 50% of the electorate voted for right wing parties. But we have had right wing Govts for 33 of those 50 years.
I agree it’s probably not fair, would you argue for a change in the boundaries as they benefit labour then to make it fairer?
The boundaries were changed, by the Conservatives, to benefit the Conservatives
Bpool, you surely can't believe people are fairly represented currently under FPTP? Our current system in some cases makes the majority of votes pointless. In Yorkshire in 2019, we had 54 seats available and ended up with 28 Labour seats (from 990,000 votes) and 26 Conservative seats (from 1,097,000 votes). The Lib Dems got 220,000 votes and got 0 seats, that isn't a fair representation. Under PR in 2019 for Yorkshire -
Labour - 21 seats
Tories - 23 seats
Lib Dems - 4 seats
Greens - 1 seat
Other - Potentially 4 seats
It means you can live in Sheffield Central, which is one of the safest Labour seats around and actually vote for Greens, Tories, etc and still feel like your vote is heard.
it’s probably not fair no, but me personally would rather have one party in charge rather than a coalition, if they can come up with a system that all parties are happy with then fair enough change it
That's where you and I differ. Giving one group a lot of control can be very damaging I think.
No, better to lessen their ability to screw things up and force politicians to have to negotiate hard for radical changes.
if the brexit party had got quite a few mps as the might well of if the voting was different there was every chance they could have formed a coalition with the tories if needed for me that would be a disaster, the other scenario is you need more than 2 parties to form a government and I just don’t think that would work
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No they haven't Hound. But that is not the point I was making.
Maybe not but your post implied that it was unusual for the winners not to get more than 50% of the vote.
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Bpool.
Here's the problem. Never in the past 50 years have more than 50% of the electorate voted for right wing parties. But we have had right wing Govts for 33 of those 50 years.
I agree it’s probably not fair, would you argue for a change in the boundaries as they benefit labour then to make it fairer?
The boundaries were changed, by the Conservatives, to benefit the Conservatives
Bpool, you surely can't believe people are fairly represented currently under FPTP? Our current system in some cases makes the majority of votes pointless. In Yorkshire in 2019, we had 54 seats available and ended up with 28 Labour seats (from 990,000 votes) and 26 Conservative seats (from 1,097,000 votes). The Lib Dems got 220,000 votes and got 0 seats, that isn't a fair representation. Under PR in 2019 for Yorkshire -
Labour - 21 seats
Tories - 23 seats
Lib Dems - 4 seats
Greens - 1 seat
Other - Potentially 4 seats
It means you can live in Sheffield Central, which is one of the safest Labour seats around and actually vote for Greens, Tories, etc and still feel like your vote is heard.
it’s probably not fair no, but me personally would rather have one party in charge rather than a coalition, if they can come up with a system that all parties are happy with then fair enough change it
That's where you and I differ. Giving one group a lot of control can be very damaging I think.
No, better to lessen their ability to screw things up and force politicians to have to negotiate hard for radical changes.
if the brexit party had got quite a few mps as the might well of if the voting was different there was every chance they could have formed a coalition with the tories if needed for me that would be a disaster, the other scenario is you need more than 2 parties to form a government and I just don’t think that would work
And under PR they'd have 13 MPs, which having nothing to show for their votes is a bit odd.
Are you thinking we only want it because we don't want the Tories in? We want it because it's fairer.
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No they haven't Hound. But that is not the point I was making.
Maybe not but your post implied that it was unusual for the winners not to get more than 50% of the vote.
That wasn't what I was talking about Hound.
The issue is that for decades, a majority of voters have voted for a myriad of left or centre left parties (Lab, SNP, PC, Green, SDP, LD*) but because the right/centre-right vote has traditionally been solidly behind one party (Con) we have traditionally had a right wing Govt despite a (usually large) majority voting for left of centre parties.
I posted the figures here a couple of years back. I'll see if I can dig them out.
(*) It's undeniable that the LDs have positioned themselves left of centre on both economics and social issues through most of that period. Leaders like Ashdown, Kennedy, Campbell and Clegg actively appealed to Labour voters who didn't like Blair's authoritarian streak, or Kinnock's fireyness. That fact that their polling support collapsed from 25% to 7% within 3-4 months of going into coalition with the Tories shows that their support was certainly not from the right of centre.)
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What is for sure there is no room for protest votes until a labor government is elected under the fptp otherwise all you get for your labours is a hand clap.
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What is for sure there is no room for protest votes until a labor government is elected under the fptp otherwise all you get for your labours is a hand clap.
If about 100,000 people had realised that and voted for Labour instead of indulging their principles in 2010, the past decade would have been very different. But unfortunately, I fear we are going through a slow motion replay of the same mistake on the Left. Too many people determined to have it their way or no way and totally missing the big picture.
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No they haven't Hound. But that is not the point I was making.
Maybe not but your post implied that it was unusual for the winners not to get more than 50% of the vote.
That wasn't what I was talking about Hound.
The issue is that for decades, a majority of voters have voted for a myriad of left or centre left parties (Lab, SNP, PC, Green, SDP, LD*) but because the right/centre-right vote has traditionally been solidly behind one party (Con) we have traditionally had a right wing Govt despite a (usually large) majority voting for left of centre parties.
I posted the figures here a couple of years back. I'll see if I can dig them out.
(*) It's undeniable that the LDs have positioned themselves left of centre on both economics and social issues through most of that period. Leaders like Ashdown, Kennedy, Campbell and Clegg actively appealed to Labour voters who didn't like Blair's authoritarian streak, or Kinnock's fireyness. That fact that their polling support collapsed from 25% to 7% within 3-4 months of going into coalition with the Tories shows that their support was certainly not from the right of centre.)
There have of course been other right wing parties though.
Surely then the issue we should be addressing is why Labour have failed to find enough common ground to unite those people?
I voted for Starmer as the unity candidate against what was potentially my better judgement and since then he has failed to show anything that suggests he has wanted to offer unity to the left.
Come May the 6th I won't be voting Labour for Mayor in first or second place or as my local councillors, nor will I be gaslighted into believing that I'm voting for the Tories as a result.
Both you and I know that Starmer is in for a battering in Hartlepool and in the locals and its time the party took some accountability at how they've managed to not just bring back the Red Wall but lose those they had previously managed to engage over the last decade as well.
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Is there enough left labor voters to elect a labour government?
Have the left labour faction had enough time to display that they can take government?
You can't take out insurance against criticism if you don't vote labour and labout don't get elected.
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Labour have lost Scotland, and it is not coming back.
More boundary changes to come will make it even more skewed. As things stand, there will never be another Labour government under this system, IMO.
The only way forward is to join with others to form a coalition to reform the electoral system.
Brown ducked this when in power, and by doing so cost a generation their future under FPTP.
I find it perplexing that Starmer has alienated younger voters, in the cities, trying to chase soft Tories in the over 65 age group. There is no route to success via this strategy.
Appealing to the nearly dead, while pissing off the future electorate is a very strange priority.
It is almost like he is there to undermine the future of his own party!
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You could tell us how Starmer could win the young left city/town voter and retain the middle without which he can't take government.
And maybe answer the questioins I posed?
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Sorry Sydney, are you talking to me?
I said thatIMO Labour cannot win under the current conditions.
If you, or anyone, can set out a path to success then please do.
Labour finding a winning formula is quite different to the Tories managing to lose credibility.
Johnson is very capable of catastrophic errors, as we have seen.
The difference is that he has teflon protection in the media ecosystem, so water flows off a duck's back!
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Albie, I'm posting to anyone on this thread that can see a way through and the left have to accept that they can't form a government on their own the population does not want that at this time. Therefore they will have to, as will all voters that don't want a tory government make efforts to support a group that can. I do not see as per voices on here that a coalition would work, some are carrying grudges almost from beyond the grave as to why they won't vote for labor (funny they never want to tell us why they vote and or support the election of the tories)
Take a leaf out of Bidens handbook on how to win, the tories are already following the GOP in trying to marginalise voters they don't want at the ballot box.
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You could tell us how Starmer could win the young left city/town voter and retain the middle without which he can't take government.
And maybe answer the questioins I posed?
The point on this is they can't. They want different things and are different people. Just because they are termed the left doesn't mean they have the same wants, ideas and political leanings.
That for me is the problem for labour. The so called left has contrasting views in some areas and it's hard to see them unite together despite what anyone says. There is not a huge amount in common than not liking another party in some cases, this inevitably the party cannot please them all.
Would they gain more votes attracting the many Tory voters that are neither left or right wing? Potentially.
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it was rhetorical yp, what would make you not vote for the tories? I assuming it would have to be something absolutely massive looking at their record over the last 10 years or so.
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Don’t forget, Hartlepool is the place that elected a man in a monkey costume for the Mayor, they’re not blessed with brain cells up there
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Don’t forget, Hartlepool is the place that elected a man in a monkey costume for the Mayor, they’re not blessed with brain cells up there
Aye , you carry on disrespecting the electorate because that's working really well isn't it in the former red wall .
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You could tell us how Starmer could win the young left city/town voter and retain the middle without which he can't take government.
And maybe answer the questioins I posed?
The point on this is they can't. They want different things and are different people. Just because they are termed the left doesn't mean they have the same wants, ideas and political leanings.
That for me is the problem for labour. The so called left has contrasting views in some areas and it's hard to see them unite together despite what anyone says. There is not a huge amount in common than not liking another party in some cases, this inevitably the party cannot please them all.
Would they gain more votes attracting the many Tory voters that are neither left or right wing? Potentially.
Political views split Right-Left on economics and Authoritarian-Liberal on social views. The latter you could perhaps also cast as Nationalist-Internationalist.
The Tories tend to win because they sweep up all the Right economics vote and typically they don't split on the social views.
The problem for the Left is that there are too many people obsessing on the cultural/social issue which will always divide the Left. So the consistent majority in the country for Left economic approaches doesn't tend to lead to Labour Govts. And we see in here precisely why. Wes and Tyke both say they no longer support Labour, but for different reasons. Both can make a strong case why they are justified. But both miss the point that their actions are effectively giving the Tories the keys to No10 forever.
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Don’t forget, Hartlepool is the place that elected a man in a monkey costume for the Mayor, they’re not blessed with brain cells up there
Aye , you carry on disrespecting the electorate because that's working really well isn't it in the former red wall .
Filo,
Hangus the monkey was a result of Labour taking them for granted, and parachuting in an unsuitable candidate (Mandelson) from outside for the earlier GE.
Starmer has made exactly the same mistake.
So who is it who is lacking in the brains department?
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So to simplyfy things and bring them down to a basic level:
people on the left of politics have a conscience and principles, so will only vote for the party that is closest to those principles.
people on the right of politics have no conscience, no prinicples and will vote for the party which says they are going to be cruelest to foreigners and reduce public services so they don't have to pay tax.
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While Jess Philips and stabber Starmer , Lisa Nandy and the cringe worthy Johnathan Ashworth are seen as the face of the Labour Party there is more chance of seeing rocking Horse doo doo than the party in office.
Hangus by the way was the mascot of the football club who was a student and did very well before resigning to go to university I think and was well regarded for the job he did.
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So to simplyfy things and bring them down to a basic level:
people on the left of politics have a conscience and principles, so will only vote for the party that is closest to those principles.
people on the right of politics have no conscience, no prinicples and will vote for the party which says they are going to be cruelest to foreigners and reduce public services so they don't have to pay tax.
Wilts, from a totally neutral point of view, that post is just your opinion and is probably because of your very left persuasion.
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So to simplyfy things and bring them down to a basic level:
people on the left of politics have a conscience and principles, so will only vote for the party that is closest to those principles.
people on the right of politics have no conscience, no prinicples and will vote for the party which says they are going to be cruelest to foreigners and reduce public services so they don't have to pay tax.
Wilts, from a totally neutral point of view, that post is just your opinion and is probably because of your very left persuasion.
It is based primarily on studying the views of people who write stuff as in the post above yours - which justify it almost perfectly
How else do you explain the popularity of a party:
where 88% of Tory ads for the 2019 election were fake or misleading - compared with 0% for Labour
https://metro.co.uk/2019/12/10/investigation-finds-88-tory-ads-misleading-compared-0-labour-11651802/
and it is led by someone who has his own website and youtube channel recording the lies he has told parlaiment and the public
https://boris-johnson-lies.com/
https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1381152230095609865
Again, I think it is fits perfectly. Other posters can make their own assesment - its a free country (although not for much longer)
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Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.
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The Tories said they wouldn't cut Foreign Aid, but the have, I think it was in their Manifesto.
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That isn’t answering the question though mate.
It is actually very like what a politician might have said.
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They don't need foreign aid, they come here for it now by boat.
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They don't need foreign aid, they come here for it now by boat.
Like...err...Philip Mountbatten did 98 years back. In a crib made from a fruit box. Fleeing a coup d'etat in his home country.
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Don’t forget, Hartlepool is the place that elected a man in a monkey costume for the Mayor, they’re not blessed with brain cells up there
Filo, after losing a Referendum and getting absolutely tonked in a General Election because of constant sneering and insults, I'd have thought you'd have learned your lesson by now, but you obviously haven't.
You'd better hope and pray there's a different approach in 2024, or Labour will get mullered again.
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Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.
Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.
Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see
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Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.
Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.
Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see
The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.
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Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.
Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.
Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see
The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.
Which policies were you against?
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This thread sums up the problem many on the left have. "Ah but the Tories...."
Many know what the Tories are, many want a credible alternative there is yet to be one and the left won't make it if there answer continues to be the Tories are evil etc...
The problem though that BST alludes to still exists for labour. The left of centre has many competing themes and the passion that exists there causes the rifts. A more credible centrist party is probably the answer. That's to the right of many in labour thus labour remains in that consistent position of bein stuck between it's two sides. Has it ever really won with a proper left wing set of policies?
To answer a prior question I'm probably never going to vote for a set of left wing policies in some areas, so where else do I put my vote? Probably the lib Dems, but their policies last time around on brexit were woeful.
If I was a left wing voter I would have a number of options, credibly the other way I do not.
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And the problem for the majority is the right can win elections but cannot run the country without dividing it and can't keep it's collective fingers out of the till.
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Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.
Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.
Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see
The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.
Which policies were you against?
Not so much individual policies, more that they were promising things that were likely going to be difficult to deliver.
Financial pie in the sky in my opinion.
Corbyn himself was also an issue for many people and that cost them votes too, in my opinion.
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You could tell us how Starmer could win the young left city/town voter and retain the middle without which he can't take government.
And maybe answer the questioins I posed?
The point on this is they can't. They want different things and are different people. Just because they are termed the left doesn't mean they have the same wants, ideas and political leanings.
That for me is the problem for labour. The so called left has contrasting views in some areas and it's hard to see them unite together despite what anyone says. There is not a huge amount in common than not liking another party in some cases, this inevitably the party cannot please them all.
Would they gain more votes attracting the many Tory voters that are neither left or right wing? Potentially.
Political views split Right-Left on economics and Authoritarian-Liberal on social views. The latter you could perhaps also cast as Nationalist-Internationalist.
The Tories tend to win because they sweep up all the Right economics vote and typically they don't split on the social views.
The problem for the Left is that there are too many people obsessing on the cultural/social issue which will always divide the Left. So the consistent majority in the country for Left economic approaches doesn't tend to lead to Labour Govts. And we see in here precisely why. Wes and Tyke both say they no longer support Labour, but for different reasons. Both can make a strong case why they are justified. But both miss the point that their actions are effectively giving the Tories the keys to No10 forever.
Death by a thousand compromises has run its course Billy for me .
Hartlepool was massively important to me on many levels
I've nowt left to give .
The damage caused this last week is massively substantial for me personally .
It's over .
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Tyke.
So you are accepting a Tory Govt then. Like it or not, that is the logic of your position.
My own recent history is that I loathed much of Corbyn's take on foreign policy which was juvenile at best, dangerous at worst. But on balance, I still preferred his Labour party to an increasingly right wing Tory party that has frightening financial connections with the Kremlin. So I stayed in the Labour party and I was heavily involved in electioneering.
Because politics is never about getting the perfect outcome you want. It is about accepting compromises to prevent a worse outcome. There are way too many people on both wings of the Left who don't get that.
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Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.
Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.
Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see
The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.
Which policies were you against?
Not so much individual policies, more that they were promising things that were likely going to be difficult to deliver.
Financial pie in the sky in my opinion.
Corbyn himself was also an issue for many people and that cost them votes too, in my opinion.
Any imparticular?
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Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.
Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.
Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see
The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.
Which policies were you against?
Not so much individual policies, more that they were promising things that were likely going to be difficult to deliver.
Financial pie in the sky in my opinion.
Corbyn himself was also an issue for many people and that cost them votes too, in my opinion.
Interesting comments Hound. Did you miss the fact that the Labour Manifesto was fully costed whilst the Tory one wasn't?
I agree Corbyn was an issue, but that's what you get with an almost complete Right Wing Media - they're already after Starmer, I wonder why!
Anyone who votes Conservative right now is casting a vote to say they are happy to be lied to, they are happy for cronyism to continue and they are happy to have their right to protest significantly diminished. And when they find those things acceptable you have to wonder what they'll find acceptable next!
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This is required reading for anyone who is genuinely interested in what is possible on the Left.
https://noahpinion.substack.com/p/bidenomics-explained
Biden is ramming through a genuine revolution. He is finally burying the failure of the Reagan/Thatcher model.
The Left here has a choice. It can follow that example, unite behind an imperfect leader and actually try to win power and join that revolution.
Or it can stay fragmented, each group insisting that they need their specific moans attended to or the are leaving.
Not really a choice if we are honest and grown up, is it?
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Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.
Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.
Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see
The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.
Which policies were you against?
Not so much individual policies, more that they were promising things that were likely going to be difficult to deliver.
Financial pie in the sky in my opinion.
Corbyn himself was also an issue for many people and that cost them votes too, in my opinion.
Interesting comments Hound. Did you miss the fact that the Labour Manifesto was fully costed whilst the Tory one wasn't?
I agree Corbyn was an issue, but that's what you get with an almost complete Right Wing Media - they're already after Starmer, I wonder why!
Anyone who votes Conservative right now is casting a vote to say they are happy to be lied to, they are happy for cronyism to continue and they are happy to have their right to protest significantly diminished. And when they find those things acceptable you have to wonder what they'll find acceptable next!
Kato, people from within his own Party are after Starmer as well.
I wonder why that is?
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Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.
Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.
Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see
The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.
Which policies were you against?
Not so much individual policies, more that they were promising things that were likely going to be difficult to deliver.
Financial pie in the sky in my opinion.
Corbyn himself was also an issue for many people and that cost them votes too, in my opinion.
Any imparticular?
Hi Hound x
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Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.
Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.
Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see
The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.
Which policies were you against?
Not so much individual policies, more that they were promising things that were likely going to be difficult to deliver.
Financial pie in the sky in my opinion.
Corbyn himself was also an issue for many people and that cost them votes too, in my opinion.
Any imparticular?
Hi Hound x
:
welcome:
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Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.
Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.
Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see
The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.
Which policies were you against?
Not so much individual policies, more that they were promising things that were likely going to be difficult to deliver.
Financial pie in the sky in my opinion.
Corbyn himself was also an issue for many people and that cost them votes too, in my opinion.
Interesting comments Hound. Did you miss the fact that the Labour Manifesto was fully costed whilst the Tory one wasn't?
I agree Corbyn was an issue, but that's what you get with an almost complete Right Wing Media - they're already after Starmer, I wonder why!
Anyone who votes Conservative right now is casting a vote to say they are happy to be lied to, they are happy for cronyism to continue and they are happy to have their right to protest significantly diminished. And when they find those things acceptable you have to wonder what they'll find acceptable next!
Kato, people from within his own Party are after Starmer as well.
I wonder why that is?
Hound.
Have a look at the history of the Labour Party. It was ever thus.
There were people trying to bring Attlee down in 1947...
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That's where the Labour Party is now Billy, history with not a lot of a future.
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Wilts, was the Labour 2019 manifesto honesty personified in what it had promised to deliver if they had won.
Dunno, they didn't win to be able to find out.
Unlike the Tory ad campaign - which did happen and you have nothing to say about i see
The Labour manifesto was a car crash and was a big part of the massive loss they suffered.
Hound,
Actually, the 2019 manifesto was very popular if you asked people for their opinion on individual measures.
The idea that it was unpopular (and not affordable) is just a myth pedalled by the Tory media.
Johnson has spaffed much more on crony contracts that achieve nothing but enrich donors, with barely a murmur in the mainstream press.
It is interesting that you think the manifesto was "financial pie in the sky", yet say nowt about Coco flashing the cash to his mates.
Do you have any evidence to back up your pie in the sky claim?
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That "financial pie in the sky".
Biden is doing that on steroids right now. Watch the results over the next 2 years. Their economy will grow far faster than ours and the growth will be far more evenly spread. They are effectively bringing in a Universal Basic Income which is exactly what we need for the future.
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Albie, I seem to recall no less than BST himself telling us that he thought that the 2019 manifesto was disastrous.
Also, as for being popular, I assume that would be amongst Labour supporters.
BST........apologies if I am wrong there but something in the back of my memory is telling me that you did say something along those lines.
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Albie, I seem to recall no less than BST himself telling us that he thought that the 2019 manifesto was disastrous.
Also, as for being popular, I assume that would be amongst Labour supporters.
BST........apologies if I am wrong there but something in the back of my memory is telling me that you did say something along those lines.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/12/labour-economic-policies-are-popular-so-why-arent-
You'd assume wrongly.
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Albie, I seem to recall no less than BST himself telling us that he thought that the 2019 manifesto was disastrous.
Also, as for being popular, I assume that would be amongst Labour supporters.
BST........apologies if I am wrong there but something in the back of my memory is telling me that you did say something along those lines.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/12/labour-economic-policies-are-popular-so-why-arent-
You'd assume wrongly.
Ah, so you are saying that it wasn’t popular amongst Labour supporters then.
Addition.
I just got round to having a look at your link.
Nowhere does it give conclusive evidence that anyone other than Labour supporters like some of those policies and it does say that over fifty percent of people polled didn’t think that Labour proposed policies were affordable.
They don’t come out very well on some of the other questions that were asked either.
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If I did say that, it was a mistake. The manifesto (on domestic economic matters) was fine. The problem was the panicked addition of things like the WASPI women payouts which were thrown into the campaign as afterthoughts and made the manifesto appear chaotic. That was a car crash.
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Albie, I seem to recall no less than BST himself telling us that he thought that the 2019 manifesto was disastrous.
Also, as for being popular, I assume that would be amongst Labour supporters.
BST........apologies if I am wrong there but something in the back of my memory is telling me that you did say something along those lines.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/12/labour-economic-policies-are-popular-so-why-arent-
You'd assume wrongly.
Ah, so you are saying that it wasn’t popular amongst Labour supporters then.
Addition.
I just got round to having a look at your link.
Nowhere does it give conclusive evidence that anyone other than Labour supporters like some of those policies and it does say that over fifty percent of people polled didn’t think that Labour proposed policies were affordable.
They don’t come out very well on some of the other questions that were asked either.
Here is the key from that link.
"There are many possible reasons (why people like the policies but don't support Labour). One is that while people like the pledges they also don’t think they are realistic: 53% of Britons brand Labour’s policy platform “not affordable”."
And that argument is currently being ripped to shreds by Biden. That "unaffordable" belief has been drummed into us by two generations of Thatcher/Reagan-omics that insisted that Govt spending had to be stripped back.
What Biden is doing is chucking that thinking in the dustbin of history where it belongs. By the next Election, that "unaffordable" argument will be demonstrated to be utter claptrap.
Big question is, can Labour rise above internecine arguments and seize that opportunity. It needs Labour to hammer on the issue that a radical economic plan is morally and practically right, and that it absolutely IS affordable. They should be screaming that message at every opportunity, not getting dragged into arguments over posturing about flags.
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Albie, I seem to recall no less than BST himself telling us that he thought that the 2019 manifesto was disastrous.
Also, as for being popular, I assume that would be amongst Labour supporters.
BST........apologies if I am wrong there but something in the back of my memory is telling me that you did say something along those lines.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/12/labour-economic-policies-are-popular-so-why-arent-
You'd assume wrongly.
Ah, so you are saying that it wasn’t popular amongst Labour supporters then.
Addition.
I just got round to having a look at your link.
Nowhere does it give conclusive evidence that anyone other than Labour supporters like some of those policies and it does say that over fifty percent of people polled didn’t think that Labour proposed policies were affordable.
They don’t come out very well on some of the other questions that were asked either.
Here is the key from that link.
"There are many possible reasons (why people like the policies but don't support Labour). One is that while people like the pledges they also don’t think they are realistic: 53% of Britons brand Labour’s policy platform “not affordable”."
And that argument is currently being ripped to shreds by Biden. That "unaffordable" belief has been drummed into us by two generations of Thatcher/Reagan-omics that insisted that Govt spending had to be stripped back.
What Biden is doing is chucking that thinking in the dustbin of history where it belongs. By the next Election, that "unaffordable" argument will be demonstrated to be utter claptrap.
Big question is, can Labour rise above internecine arguments and seize that opportunity. It needs Labour to hammer on the issue that a radical economic plan is morally and practically right, and that it absolutely IS affordable. They should be screaming that message at every opportunity, not getting dragged into arguments over posturing about flags.
Billy I don't disagree that Labour have to be radical on policy and invest in the country .
One of my other issues with Starmer is that he's brought Mandelson back to the fold .
The architect of New Labour will do exactly what it says on the tin and he's already pushing the party to throw all the left policies attributed to Corbyn out of the window .
I've no problem with Corbyn the man getting slung out but some of his ideas were pretty sound .
The free broadband in 2019 at that time was possibly for the fairies and it's timing was poor .
However the pandemic has proved just how much we rely on the internet whether that's through work or simply keeping in contact with friends and family .
It's actually very much in the game today .
Do you think Starmer and Mandelson would use a Corbyn policy ?
I suspect not because they are intent on putting as much distance as they can between socialist policies and going back towards New Labour .
I'm only a trade union member these days and not active but I do know from what I've been told that Starmer has distanced himself from the trade union movement , yet another New Labour trait .
I understand your previous posts about unity and compromises .
Bear in mind we've been here before with Blair .
Compromises and Unity are a two way street Billy .
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Better to ask which policies of this government do you give your support to ..........
!% pay rise for health workers
not having a public inquiry into the covid response
not having an inquiry into russian inferference
etc etc
not releasing government reports the public have paid for
Having inquiries then doctoring them to suit
etc
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Better to ask which policies of this government do you give your support to ..........
!% pay rise for health workers
not having a public inquiry into the covid response
not having an inquiry into russian inferference
etc etc
not releasing government reports the public have paid for
Having inquiries then doctoring them to suit
etc
Yep, but sadly the Tory fan boys will lap it up! "everything Tory is good.... everything anywhere and everywhere else is bad Baaaaaaaa". With apologies to George Orwell.
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Better to ask which policies of this government do you give your support to ..........
!% pay rise for health workers
not having a public inquiry into the covid response
not having an inquiry into russian inferference
etc etc
not releasing government reports the public have paid for
Having inquiries then doctoring them to suit
etc
Yep, but sadly the Tory fan boys will lap it up! "everything Tory is good.... everything anywhere and everywhere else is bad Baaaaaaaa". With apologies to George Orwell.
Is it any wonder you can't convince ppl of the merits of voting Labour when all you have is insults and condescension? At least BST provides arguments
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Better to ask which policies of this government do you give your support to ..........
!% pay rise for health workers
not having a public inquiry into the covid response
not having an inquiry into russian inferference
etc etc
not releasing government reports the public have paid for
Having inquiries then doctoring them to suit
etc
Yep, but sadly the Tory fan boys will lap it up! "everything Tory is good.... everything anywhere and everywhere else is bad Baaaaaaaa". With apologies to George Orwell.
Is it any wonder you can't convince ppl of the merits of voting Labour when all you have is insults and condescension? At least BST provides arguments
Evidence has been consistently been provided of Tory lying, cronyism and illegal actions by many on here. Odd that non of you Tory fan boys have criticised any of that at all! Your lack of criticism of these actions can only mean that you approve of them, and that is a far greater insult!
Here's a few reminders of what you appear to support....
https://boris-johnson-lies.com/
https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/boris-johnson-top-ten-lies-2020-and-89768
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-lies-conservative-leader-candidate-list-times-banana-brexit-bus-a8929076.html
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/21/boris-johnson-lies-marcus-rashford-prime-minister
Baaaaaaaa.
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But, but, but the tories.......
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Come on NNK sell voting Labour WITHOUT resorting to insults, condescension or referring to the tories
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Rise above percieved insults Ldr and tell us you can't support johnson insulting the population either directly as not of his ilk or generally in thinking the anyone could possibly believe any of it.
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I cant support him Syd, the man is a buffoon. If you recall I left the Party over the Cummings Barnard Castle shit. My vote is up for grabs but tbh ppl like NNK et al tend to put me off even considering Labour as I don't want to be associated with the insults and condescension which is why I asked to sell voting labour to me. But but the tories isn't justification to me. Likely to abstain atm
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Come on NNK sell voting Labour WITHOUT resorting to insults, condescension or referring to the tories
But I'm not trying to sell voting Labour Ldr, I'm pointing out that by voting Tory people are actually voting for, and showing their approval of, the country being lied to, cronyism and to allow the government to break the law when it feels like it. Are you happy to do that? Seriously?
For the record, I'm in the classic demographic for being a Tory voter - Own my house outright, have absolutely no debt whatsoever, gold plated pension, money in the bank and my shares are doing rather well; but I have higher principles than to sell out to a bunch of shysters who are 'in it' for themselves and their mates, and demonstrate a 'screw the country' attitude.
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I refer you to my post to Syd NNK
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I refer you to my post to Syd NNK
Just read it Ldr, and thanks. And I wont try to sell Labour to you, nor any other party. My view, FWIW, is to look at each parties manifesto, (is it good for the country as a whole, is it realistic, is it achievable), look at how they've behaved over the last governmental period, ignore the media in the run up to a GE/Bi-election, (right or left wing, and particularly social media); and vote for what you believe to be in the countries best interests.
My view on abstentions is that they are a waste of a good vote. Better to 'protest' by voting for one of the minor parties or spoiling your ballot paper with words such as 'I have no faith in any of these people/parties'.
Also, FWIW, I hate the First Past The Post system, it's about as undemocratic a supposedly democratic country can get! It brings huge divisions, as witnessed in this thread and others, and can never be in the best interests of the country as a whole. PR is the only way forward, it works well in much of the civilised world, why not here?
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The thing about our FPTP system is that is suddenly is outdated because Labour probably won’t win again in the foreseeable future under that method.
It was ok the last time Labour won though.
As for deliberately spoiling a ballot paper, isn’t that more or less the same as an abstention.
How does someone vote neutral I saw asked earlier, simple, don’t vote at all
I feel the same as ldr in many ways.
The attitude of many Labour supporters, on this forum and elsewhere, seems to be that if you don’t vote Labour you are thick.
That simply puts me off being associated with them or the Labour Party.
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Hound.
Why do this? here have been people on the Left calling from PR for decades. I myself have said numerous times in here that Blair winning a 190 seat majority with 43% of the vote is unacceptable.
As regarding accusations of Tory voters being thick, I don't think anyone has said that. But there is a frustration that many of the right-leaning people in here simply refuse to engage on discussion on substantive issues. That doesn't mean someone is thick, but it does mean it is difficult to engage with them.
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BST, I feel sure that I have seen Tory supporters being referred to as thick and other insulting words, on the forum and elsewhere.
No doubt you will do your best to prove me wrong by using the search bar but whatever the outcome of that, I still feel that some Labour supporters on this forum, with their attitudes to anyone who isn’t in their camp, have put me off ever standing alongside them politically.
By the way, I typed “thick” into the search bar myself and it put up two posts only.
Guess which ones.
I am sure you will agree that that word will have been used more than twice on here in the last ten years or so.
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Hound.
I've said once or twice that Farage and Johnson assume their supporters are thick. If they didn't, they wouldn't serve up the most blatant lies I've ever heard from politicians and expect people to swallow them uncomplainingly.
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Billy, the biggest difference is they might think their supporters are thick, but they don't constantly tell them so publically like the labour party and some of their supporters on here.
Really it is a question of who is the thickest and them doing the spouting about other people being uneducated thickos and throw the insults about are the thickest, and mainly Labour MP's and their supporters.
How to make friends and influence people was highlighted after the referendum and old stabber being interviewed on Warterloo station waiting for the train to meet the EU leaders to try and overturn a democratic vote, the ultimate one for one vote of proportional representation the same silly buggers like yourself are still hoping to overturn.
It didn't fall right did it so let's have another. Oh first past the post hasn't worked for us for 15 years let's change it. Under Labours tenure changing boundaries in their favour didn't matter but it's wrong now. A broken record.
The fact is Labour have had more thicko's than the Tories who are world wise to keeping power for years and are still building on it.
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Things the Tories have closed.
1,189 Sure Start Centres
100 NHS Walk In centres
600 Police Stations
675 Libraries
760 Youth Centres
470 Schools
50 Fire Stations
433 HMRC Tax Offices
100 Job Centres
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Things the Tories have closed.
1,189 Sure Start Centres
100 NHS Walk In centres
600 Police Stations
675 Libraries
760 Youth Centres
470 Schools
50 Fire Stations
433 HMRC Tax Offices
100 Job Centres
That's not fair. You're not including the things they've opened like the foodbanks.
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Things the Tories have closed.
1,189 Sure Start Centres
100 NHS Walk In centres
600 Police Stations
675 Libraries
760 Youth Centres
470 Schools
50 Fire Stations
433 HMRC Tax Offices
100 Job Centres
That's not fair. You're not including the things they've opened like the foodbanks.
Come on selby tell us how this is a benefit, and why you vote for them?
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Things the Tories have closed.
1,189 Sure Start Centres
100 NHS Walk In centres
600 Police Stations
675 Libraries
760 Youth Centres
470 Schools
50 Fire Stations
433 HMRC Tax Offices
100 Job Centres
That's not fair. You're not including the things they've opened like the foodbanks.
...not forgetting opening wallets and off shore Bank accounts for any commisions they were due from any cronyism ?
They will still win next GE though unless the opposition Parties unite
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Latest Yougov poll has labour 14 points behind, worse than their 2019 election result.
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Well look at those on the left talking the party down, they are the ones enabling the tories.
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Labour will lose Hartlepool. They will also perform poorly in the local elections and any other subsequent elections over the next 12-18 months. The Tories are running high on the vaccine feel good factor and this will continue for the remainder of this year.
However, as we move into next year, the cost of Covid will become a reality and the economic squeeze will be felt across the country. History tells us that consecutive Tory governments have no issue with a unevenly spreading the burden of economic deficit across society. This is generally the period when they show their true colours of disdain of the working and middle classes. The challenge for the government is whether they can pinch enough from these people without losing votes? For Labour, this will be prime fodder for them to exploit. Can they do this whilst proposing a viable alternative? Harold Wilson was great at this, as was Tony Blair. I don’t see any reason why Kier Starmer can’t follow suit. Labour’s time will come.
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I just had a visit from our labour councillor here who is quite active locally. Had a good 10-15 minute chat and he was clearly quite clued up on issues affecting the village. A big topic of conversation was the local houses being built which he said they are powerless to prevent. Food for thought on where to vote on that. It's the only leaflet or visit we've had and I don't doubt it probably will be the last. On balance in Doncaster I don't feel things are ran that badly personally.
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I just had a visit from our labour councillor here who is quite active locally. Had a good 10-15 minute chat and he was clearly quite clued up on issues affecting the village. A big topic of conversation was the local houses being built which he said they are powerless to prevent. Food for thought on where to vote on that. It's the only leaflet or visit we've had and I don't doubt it probably will be the last. On balance in Doncaster I don't feel things are ran that badly personally.
That’s good to know. When I left Donny in the early 80’s the local Council were not well thought of at all. I’m glad it’s not like that anymore. Interestingly, where I live in London our Lib Dem representatives are most active and will certainly be getting my vote. The Tory candidate is a nice bloke but I could never bring myself to vote for them.
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I wouldn't mind, but the vaccine has very little to do with the Government despite them basking in the glory.
They didn't invent it and the NHS has planned the roll out.
Credit the Gov for getting in first and ordering millions, that's about it.
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I just had a visit from our labour councillor here who is quite active locally. Had a good 10-15 minute chat and he was clearly quite clued up on issues affecting the village. A big topic of conversation was the local houses being built which he said they are powerless to prevent. Food for thought on where to vote on that. It's the only leaflet or visit we've had and I don't doubt it probably will be the last. On balance in Doncaster I don't feel things are ran that badly personally.
Armthorpe BFYP?
If so I probably posted the leaflet and know who you were talking to.
I'll be on the Parish Council from May with a new set of councillors and we've got big plans to improve the village.
Hopefully bottom up will be the way back to power..... eventually.
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I just had a visit from our labour councillor here who is quite active locally. Had a good 10-15 minute chat and he was clearly quite clued up on issues affecting the village. A big topic of conversation was the local houses being built which he said they are powerless to prevent. Food for thought on where to vote on that. It's the only leaflet or visit we've had and I don't doubt it probably will be the last. On balance in Doncaster I don't feel things are ran that badly personally.
Armthorpe BFYP?
If so I probably posted the leaflet and know who you were talking to.
I'll be on the Parish Council from May with a new set of councillors and we've got big plans to improve the village.
Hopefully bottom up will be the way back to power..... eventually.
Edenthorpe, but likely the same sort of issues given we are about to see the village boundaries brought together (ish).
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Well look at those on the left talking the party down, they are the ones enabling the tories.
What
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Well look at those on the left talking the party down, they are the ones enabling the tories.
What
In the latest YG poll, 13% of those who voted Labour in 2019 now say they'd vote Green.
I'd hazard a wild guess that these people aren't from the right wing of the Labour party...
It's the same depressing story as 2010, when folk on the Left wouldn't vote for Brown because...principles. And in acting that way, put Cameron into No10.
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Well look at those on the left talking the party down, they are the ones enabling the tories.
What
In the latest YG poll, 13% of those who voted Labour in 2019 now say they'd vote Green.
I'd hazard a wild guess that these people aren't from the right wing of the Labour party...
It's the same depressing story as 2010, when folk on the Left wouldn't vote for Brown because...principles. And in acting that way, put Cameron into No10.
I'd vote for the Greens of there was an election tomorrow, that's just because so far Starmer has been very uninspiring.
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Well look at those on the left talking the party down, they are the ones enabling the tories.
What
In the latest YG poll, 13% of those who voted Labour in 2019 now say they'd vote Green.
I'd hazard a wild guess that these people aren't from the right wing of the Labour party...
It's the same depressing story as 2010, when folk on the Left wouldn't vote for Brown because...principles. And in acting that way, put Cameron into No10.
The same story as the last two elections when the full might of party itself, the media and the Centre ground colluded against the party. It put May and Johnson in Number 10 and looking at the polls today, despite all that, they managed to get a whole lot closer. 14% according to YouGov today. Labour would be 20 points ahead now if they had a competent leader.....
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Who would that leader be though?
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Wes.
It's less than 2 years since Labour was securing 13% in a national election, and consistently scoring below 20% in opinion polls. Under the leader that you imposed on the party. Telling me it was your party now, when I suggested how it would pan out.
Anyone who blithely assumes that ANY replacement leader was going to take Labour into an overwhelming poll lead really doesn't get it.
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Wes.
It's less than 2 years since Labour was securing 13% in a national election, and consistently scoring below 20% in opinion polls. Under the leader that you imposed on the party. Telling me it was your party now, when I suggested how it would pan out.
Anyone who blithely assumes that ANY replacement leader was going to take Labour into an overwhelming poll lead really doesn't get it.
You can understand why people abandoned Labour when people make comments like this. :laugh:
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Wes.
It's less than 2 years since Labour was securing 13% in a national election, and consistently scoring below 20% in opinion polls. Under the leader that you imposed on the party. Telling me it was your party now, when I suggested how it would pan out.
Anyone who blithely assumes that ANY replacement leader was going to take Labour into an overwhelming poll lead really doesn't get it.
Who do you think Starmer is going to appeal to? We're at a point now where Labour are losing voters from the left and the right. He's floundering in absolute no man's land with the vast difference this time that not only can I not see the left voting for Starmer at any point (nor does he want their vote) but for many I cannot see them regaining their vote again.
As idler has rightly pointed out, who now resides in between the soft right of KS and the left of JC who could provide an actual unity candidate? I look and I'm scratching my head.
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Well look at those on the left talking the party down, they are the ones enabling the tories.
What
In the latest YG poll, 13% of those who voted Labour in 2019 now say they'd vote Green.
I'd hazard a wild guess that these people aren't from the right wing of the Labour party...
It's the same depressing story as 2010, when folk on the Left wouldn't vote for Brown because...principles. And in acting that way, put Cameron into No10.
I'm not comfortable in the fact you clearly don't value principles Billy , it's not a great look if the truth be told .
I'm also not comfortable in that you see the left of my background abandoning the Labour Party as far back as Gordon Brown .
I've personally held my nose and voted Labour for 24 years .
Just how much do you want us to concede before the whole thing becomes death by a thousand compromises ? .
We should compromise just as long as it's folk like me doing all the compromising .
Starmer is uniting nothing , he's pulling the Labour Party towards Blair territory which is exactly what started the fragmentation in the first place within the former red wall .
That is exactly what he is , the illiegimate son of Tony Blair aided by Mandelson the man who is on the record as saying he undermined Jeremy Corbyn's leadership almost every day .
So who ensures we get a Tory government there then ? .
There is no righteousness to be had in the Labour Party , they are as equally as bad as the Tories .
The only difference is they go about being a bunch of shytehouses in a different way .
To make changes in this country , a fairer society , a more equal society you need people with a pair Billy .
Balls and brains is a pretty formidable attribute .
As much as I loath the women Thatcher had both and until Labour producers such a leader expect nothing to change any time soon .
If Thatcher was Starmer she wouldn't have dared take on the Trade Unions , do you see the point I'm making ? .
The balance in society needs to change just like Thatcher believed it did back in 79 .
We live in hope .
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From a purely non political point of view, it isn’t too long ago that some posters on here were pontificating that Starmer was the man who would lead the Labour Party to a wonderful victory.
It would appear that might not be happening now.
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Just put the two people's names on a blackboard and make a list of the attributes you would want in a leader and tick them off, in a purely non-political way of course.
Honesty
faithfulness
competence
attention to detail
et f**king cetera
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Public perception.
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From a purely non political point of view, it isn’t too long ago that some posters on here were pontificating that Starmer was the man who would lead the Labour Party to a wonderful victory.
It would appear that might not be happening now.
Clearly in Starmer's case he promised many things , build on the narrative of a more fairer society which was Corbyn's tune but with a more credible face to attain the Labour leadership .
Only to become leader then turn the other way towards the Blair flavour of the Labour Party .
More fool me for thinking this London based pro EU tw@t was anything other than what he really is .
I won't be making the same mistake twice .
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I wouldn't mind, but the vaccine has very little to do with the Government despite them basking in the glory.
They didn't invent it and the NHS has planned the roll out.
Credit the Gov for getting in first and ordering millions, that's about it.
If the government hadn't got in first and ordered millions of vaccines the NHS wouldn't have had the volume of vaccines available to roll out!
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And they should also get the credit for all the PPE orders also, don't cha think?
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Don't skip the subject, Skippy.
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Don't forget to answer the comment or rally the troops simon
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From a purely non political point of view, it isn’t too long ago that some posters on here were pontificating that Starmer was the man who would lead the Labour Party to a wonderful victory.
It would appear that might not be happening now.
Clearly in Starmer's case he promised many things , build on the narrative of a more fairer society which was Corbyn's tune but with a more credible face to attain the Labour leadership .
Only to become leader then turn the other way towards the Blair flavour of the Labour Party .
More fool me for thinking this London based pro EU tw@t was anything other than what he really is .
I won't be making the same mistake twice .
This is why it may well be a hopeless case.
Of COURSE Starmer has to appeal to both the Left and the centrist wings of the Labour party. Labour doesn't have a hope in hell of winning power if he doesn't. It's lazy nonsense to say Starmer is only interested in one wing or the other.
It's lazy from the Left because they ignore the fact that his domestic economic policies are very similar to Corbyn's. What he's having to do is distance himself from the image of Corbynism because that put off so many of the people that Labour must attract if it is going to be anything more than a protest party.
Your comment on principles is the key. Have principles. Vote for a party that only gives you exactly what you want. And the result will be that you give the victory to the very people you claim to be the opposite of what you want. In a First Past the Post system, voting on principle is an indulgence. A childish one.
I keep pointing out the example of Biden. The Sanders supporters disliked him because he didn't have the firey left wing rhetoric that enthused them. But he won. By attracting more than just the left wing fringe. And look what he is doing now he has won.
Starmer could do that. But not if the Left digs its heels in and refuses to vote for him. And if he appeals only to the Left, he won't win.
It is so bloody obvious, but it needs hard headed thinking, not immature idealism. If 10-20% of Labour supporters polish their consciences and refuse to vote for him, they are the ones who will cement Johnson in power for a decade. Just like they did when they refused to vote for Brown.
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And for the record, I want rid of the FPTP system. It's decades out of date and I agree that it works against people being able to vote on principle. I WANT people to be able to vote on principle. But to do so in the current system is stupid.
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Stabber Starmer, more edges than a broken p*ss pot.
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That is a false comparison Billy.
Biden won primarily beacuse 10's of thousands of Sanders supporters went out and campaigned for him, because Biden and his team listened to and brought onboard, Sanders, AOC and many other prominent left-wing figures. In that way Biden was a uniting figure.
Starmer, or to be more accurate the people around him have done the opposite. They have litterally expelled prominent left-wing figures and activisits from the leadership team and party and hired ex-Mossad agents and Peter Mandelesson. Who is that going to unite?
Labour have increased their vote once this century, Corbyn in 2017. That's the base on which he needs to build, because if he doesn't it will drift away as the polls are showing.
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Stabber Starmer, more edges than a broken p*ss pot.
Is there a reason why you call him Stabber or are you just a crackhead?
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Stabber Starmer, more edges than a broken p*ss pot.
Said an Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson supporter...
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Stabber Starmer, more edges than a broken p*ss pot.
Don't forget this is what they think and presumably some of those that vote for them, otherwise why would they?
''British workers 'among worst idlers', suggest Tory MPs''
''British workers are "among the worst idlers in the world", a group of Conservative MPs has claimed''
''The UK "rewards laziness", does not encourage risk-taking and must strive to emulate the work ethic and low-tax culture in parts of Asia, the five MPs argue in a book due out next month.
The authors include Elizabeth Truss and Dominic Raab, both tipped to be promoted in a future reshuffle.
"Too many people in Britain prefer a lie-in to hard work," they argue.
The other contributors to Britannia Unchained are Priti Patel, Chris Skidmore and Kwasi Kwarteng, influential members of the "class of 2010" - MPs elected to Parliament at the last election''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-19300051
and this doesn't include what johnson thinks.
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Wilts.
In the US, Sanders showed leadership to his supporters by embracing Biden.
In the UK, following Starmer being elected, we had months of surly silence from the Corbyn team and outright opposition from Corbynista activists, followed by Corbyn and Long-Bailey pouring petrol on the anti-Semitism issue that has done so much damage to Labour's standing.
You say Starmer has not reached out to the Left. He put Long-Bailey in his Shadow Cabinet. What is he then to do when she re-tweets an anti-Semitic (and factually incorrect) trope and refuses to apologise? Pat her on the back and say "you carry on"?
You reckon the committed Corbynistas actually want Starmer to succeed? Because from my viewpoint, all I see is them wanting to continue the internal fighting. Just as the far Left always did.
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Wilts.
In the US, Sanders showed leadership to his supporters by embracing Biden.
In the UK, following Starmer being elected, we had months of surly silence from the Corbyn team and outright opposition from Corbynista activists, followed by Corbyn and Long-Bailey pouring petrol on the anti-Semitism issue that has done so much damage to Labour's standing.
You say Starmer has not reached out to the Left. He put Long-Bailey in his Shadow Cabinet. What is he then to do when she re-tweets an anti-Semitic (and factually incorrect) trope and refuses to apologise? Pat her on the back and say "you carry on"?
You reckon the committed Corbynistas actually want Starmer to succeed? Because from my viewpoint, all I see is them wanting to continue the internal fighting. Just as the far Left always did.
Listen to yourself. A report was created about infighting and how a number of MPs in the center of the party wanted to ruin the parties chances at an election to try and get rid of Corbyn. All you're doing is putting the blame continuously at the left.
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A big moment for the Labour party this byelection.
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Wilts.
In the US, Sanders showed leadership to his supporters by embracing Biden.
In the UK, following Starmer being elected, we had months of surly silence from the Corbyn team and outright opposition from Corbynista activists, followed by Corbyn and Long-Bailey pouring petrol on the anti-Semitism issue that has done so much damage to Labour's standing.
You say Starmer has not reached out to the Left. He put Long-Bailey in his Shadow Cabinet. What is he then to do when she re-tweets an anti-Semitic (and factually incorrect) trope and refuses to apologise? Pat her on the back and say "you carry on"?
You reckon the committed Corbynistas actually want Starmer to succeed? Because from my viewpoint, all I see is them wanting to continue the internal fighting. Just as the far Left always did.
As I wrote above it is up to the leadership to lead and be inclusive. Unfortuantely you sum up their attitude of distain and 'take it or leave it'. The recent polling tells us how well that is going.
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Wilts.
In the US, Sanders showed leadership to his supporters by embracing Biden.
In the UK, following Starmer being elected, we had months of surly silence from the Corbyn team and outright opposition from Corbynista activists, followed by Corbyn and Long-Bailey pouring petrol on the anti-Semitism issue that has done so much damage to Labour's standing.
You say Starmer has not reached out to the Left. He put Long-Bailey in his Shadow Cabinet. What is he then to do when she re-tweets an anti-Semitic (and factually incorrect) trope and refuses to apologise? Pat her on the back and say "you carry on"?
You reckon the committed Corbynistas actually want Starmer to succeed? Because from my viewpoint, all I see is them wanting to continue the internal fighting. Just as the far Left always did.
Listen to yourself. A report was created about infighting and how a number of MPs in the center of the party wanted to ruin the parties chances at an election to try and get rid of Corbyn. All you're doing is putting the blame continuously at the left.
It's always the left. Even now, when the left have been purged from every position of influence in the party and Peter f**king Mandelson is at the top table, it's the fault of Leninlover69 on twitter that labour are 14 points behind.
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There seems to me to be an emerging pattern from those to the right of my traditional left values that they actually know better than the electorate .
Back our stance and we will keep the Tories out of government .
They may well have been on to something in 1997 but the truth is the UK is a totally different country to what it was back then so going to the back catalogue is perhaps massively flawed .
What seems to have escaped the centre of the Labour Party is the fact despite 13 years of government they didn't actually change anything from the Thatcher years .
It's one thing to have power and quite another to do something with it .
It's probably far from wise to vote Tory at the best of times but when the alternative is hardly inspiring you can understand the division .
The truth in my opinion is that the centre of the Labour Party just don't want a Tory government , that's it in a nutshell , nothing else to see really .
The left of the party or at least the left of my background actually want to change things .
Yes we are fecking horrible when you can't catch your tube train to work because we are on strike or vote to leave the neoliberal EU .
Maybe just maybe we are on the right side of horrible and the centre simply wants a government that isn't Tory but may as well be if the truth be told and the easier ride because the red rosette is apparently more righteous than a blue one .
You have to crack eggs to make an omelette its unlikely the centre of the Labour Party even have a box of eggs in their kitchen .
What's ever been won for working people in this country came from where exactly ? .
It wasn't from the likes of Starmer or Mandelson that I do know .
With the times we currently live in , the centre of the Labour Party may as well move over to the Tory benchess for what good they are .
That's a solid fact .
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Tyke.
You have totally lost me now.
You talk about "the Left of the party".
But you hated Corbyn.
Labour's economic policies have been consistent for more than 10 years, and have been aimed at addressing precisely the problems that both you and I want to address.
But whichever Labour leader puts them forward, you complain that it's not right.
What exactly DO you want?
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This is what I wrote and then looked for a more informed opinion. It's not what the problems are but how they are resolved.
Until the conundrum of left voters voting for far right immigration policy and centre, centre right nationalism I'm not sure how the impasse will be resolved because the tory party and the media will exploit it as they have done quite successfully to damage labour. Corbyn whom I supported in spirit had plenty of time at the helm to get the party in order but went mia at crucial moments, then when it came to the most crucial item on the agenda brexit he couldn't unite the party and washed his hands of it. This was not a brilliant display of leadership, as leader he needed to grasp the nettle and resolve it one way or another.
''How Labour went from near-breakthrough in 2017 to disaster in 2019''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/16/labour-2017-2019-corbyn-brexit-election
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Tyke.
You have totally lost me now.
You talk about "the Left of the party".
But you hated Corbyn.
Labour's economic policies have been consistent for more than 10 years, and have been aimed at addressing precisely the problems that both you and I want to address.
But whichever Labour leader puts them forward, you complain that it's not right.
What exactly DO you want?
Billy I don't believe I've ever stated that I hate Corbyn .
My take on the man is this ,
I thought he genuinely cared about working people in this country and wanted to improve lives through a more fairer society .
He also energised young people in the country and increased the Labour membership massively on a left wing ticket .
The way he was hounded in the media because he wanted to change things was a disgrace .
Worse than that the centre of the Labour Party were part of it and plotted against him .
This was a man who won two Labour leadership contests convincingly by democratic means .
That said the man was weak and he was a coward which isn't exactly leadership material with some pretty questionable links to some very unsavoury people .
His intentions were sound but as a leader he was a disaster .
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So, what we have is Labour supporters arguing, Tories don't argue, just accept and therefore win elections. From my point of view as a union and Labour Party member, it's often the left who want to be pure and end up sacrificing the chances of winning elections by not accepting what you need to do to be in power.
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Never interrupt your enemy when he's making mistakes - Napoleon Bonepart
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Never interrupt your enemy when he's making mistakes - Napoleon Bonepart
For goodness sake, don’t bring Napoleon into the discussion mate.
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Never interrupt your enemy when he's making mistakes - Napoleon Bonepart
For goodness sake, don’t bring Napoleon into the discussion mate.
Indeed. After all, things didn't work out to we'll for him did they?
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No they didn't Kato and that was because he was trying to force Europe on us.
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like William the Conqueror selby?
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Helped very much by Tostig and the Vikings at Stamford Bridge Syd, It might not have turned out so great without that little shin dig, about the last war the French won that one, Gerry usually include them in their tour of Europe when they strop about every few years.
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No they didn't Kato and that was because he was trying to force Europe on us.
It's quite clear you didn't study history at all at school selby! (or afterwards it seems).
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No they didn't Kato and that was because he was trying to force Europe on us.
Someone bokmark this post quickly in which Selby celebrates being saved by the Germans...
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No they didn't Kato and that was because he was trying to force Europe on us.
like William the Conqueror selby?
And Captain Cook.
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Don't rush the typing with excitement Wilts, what is a bokmark?
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It sounds a bit South African.
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When I was in Cape Town I few years ago, I couldn't help sniggering at the road sign for Wattercant.
You have to say it with a SA accent.
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What was it an old Tory PM said when asked what were the most difficult things for politicians to deal with?
"Events, dear boy, events"
Tories have dropped 5% in the latest poll, following recent "events" about sleaze. And this is before the Cummings meltdown and the "bodies" quote story.
Events can change things overnight in politics.
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And Boris has the big one Billy, lifting the last lockdown rules when he wants to.
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https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hartlepool-by-election-poll-labour-conservatives-b1841659.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/hartlepool-by-election-poll-labour-conservatives-b1841659.html)
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Still think it's a stretch for the Tories to win it and it means nothing (bar an increase in their majority) in the long term.
The Tory mayor has done pretty well up there so that plus a badly performing MP plus brexit makes it tough for labour.
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Almost four hours since Starmer was interviewed on the bbc breakfast programme.
Surprising that no one has bothered to make a comment about it.
It appears to me that he is so much on the fence.
He also failed to answer some of the questions that were put to him.
Not that that is unusual for politicians by the way.
It was also odd that he said that over the last year he hadn’t been able to go out and meet the public but later on said he had been up to Hartlepool three or four times.
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From my side Hound that's because.
a) I never watch Breakfast TV
b) I've been in video meetings since 9:00.
I did hear Starmer on the R4 Today programme this morning and there was one standout moment. He was asked if there were lessons for Labour from Biden's spending approaches, to which he immediately jumped in and said "Yes. We have to change our approach to Givt spending and support for the economy. The old way was broken before COVID and we can't just go back to how things were."
The interviewer was trying to make this a "Gotcha!" moment by immediately responding with "But...but...deficit!?!" but Starmer brushed that aside. We need a hell of a lot more of that approach from him from now. Labour has to passionately make the case that Austerity was wrong when it happened and a return to it would be catastrophic. They have to point to Biden's America which is going to run up huge deficits, but which will be economically turbocharged. This morning on R4 felt like the first sign of that approach from Starmer.
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Never in a month of Sundays did I think I'd see this sort of polling.
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1389489509671256064?s=19
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Never in a month of Sundays did I think I'd see this sort of polling.
https://twitter.com/ElectionMapsUK/status/1389489509671256064?s=19
It’s no real surprise though. The vaccine ‘feelgood’ factor is resonating over everything and people are comparing our handling of it compared to the rest of the world, putting 2+2 together and getting Johnson.
As I’ve mentioned on here before, the Tories will win Hartlepool and do well in the council elections. Nobody should be surprised. The big challenge for the Tories will be when the bills for Covid begin to arrive. Who’s going to pay for it? History tells us that the Tories don’t think twice about squeezing the working and middle classes whilst letting the rich off the hook. When towns like Hartlepool begin to feel the pinch in reductions to public services (which will definitely happen) is when Labour need to offer a viable alternative.
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Agreed, the Tories will win Hartlepool and that is a major issue for Labour to address. Nationally though, the polls are definitely tightening again, and it is a long, long way until the next election.
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Agreed, the Tories will win Hartlepool and that is a major issue for Labour to address. Nationally though, the polls are definitely tightening again, and it is a long, long way until the next election.
They'll widen again post may 17th when pubs open and again post June 21st. The public are easily pleased
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Agreed, the Tories will win Hartlepool and that is a major issue for Labour to address. Nationally though, the polls are definitely tightening again, and it is a long, long way until the next election.
They'll widen again post may 17th when pubs open and again post June 21st. The public are easily pleased
Absolutely right Ldr. Was it John Lennon who said “Give people cheap tellys, fags and booze and they’ll accept anything”!!!
I suspect that Labour will accept a thrashing this week, in the knowledge that the Tories will probably screw the very people supporting them when they inevitably cut public services to pay for Covid. That’s when Labour will hopefully step up their game.
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When are they gonna start giving people cheap telly's, fags and booze?
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Don't give up lads, the remainers were winning at this point in 2016
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When pressed this morning about the Hartlepool outcome, Starmer said that if they lost he would take responsibility for the defeat.
The presenter asked him if that meant would he resign.
Starmer simply said that he would take responsibility, he was asked again whether he would resign and rambled on about something else.
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I said it before but I think it's worth repeating - its not the local elections or even Hartlepool that is important on Thursday - it's what happens in Scotland. And if the polls are right there - the almighty consitiutional row which will develop from them.
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When are they gonna start giving people cheap telly's, fags and booze?
When Lennon said this a packet of 20 fags cost 25p, a pint was about 10p and a telly cost about £70. So I guess they’ve already done it.
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Attention, Attention, Starmer condemned for not answering question ............. I wonder how you would be treated if you were a life long liar, cheat and philanderer?
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Whats the answer Wilts, march in and give some welly out and arrest the leaders and imprison them like the Spanish government in Catalonia? The EU won't say anything.
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I said it before but I think it's worth repeating - its not the local elections or even Hartlepool that is important on Thursday - it's what happens in Scotland. And if the polls are right there - the almighty consitiutional row which will develop from them.
I reckon that is the big question, with no clear answer from either Labour or the Tories on what to do next.
The position of Labour supporting Unionism is in sharp focus.
Without a Labour revival in Scotland, there is no viable route to power in the UK under FPTP.
Steer Karma has nailed his colours to the Union, if Scotland rejects that where does he go?
Pitching to Red Wall over 65's is not going to cut the mustard.
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As the voting age is 18 in UK (marriage and driving is lower and far more dangerous) maybe there should be an upper limit also :)
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Skippy, I would gladly give you my vote if I thought you were bright enough to invest it properly.
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What would I do with a far right vote, donate it to tommy robinson?
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The sad not so slow I suppose death of a political party that has lost it's core support being played out in public and becoming irrelevant.
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The sad not so slow I suppose death of a political party that has lost it's core support being played out in public and becoming irrelevant.
Labour won’t die Selby. Politics is cyclical. I remember people saying the same about Labour in the 80’s and the Conservatives in the 2000’s and yet both came back. In all those examples the parties lost touch with their core supporters but came back strongly. Labour will eventually do that once they get their arses in gear.
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Herbert, I can't see any of the no marks they put forward to put their case publicly being able do do anything but lead them deeper into the mire buddy.
And then there are still the old prats that are keeping a low profile publicity wise, but are still there agitating to get rid of the no marks, just what chance do you think they have of being relevant.
With average house prices over £250000 just how many of those people do you think want to share their lifestyle, and think of themselves as working class.
It's gone buddy the whole idea is history, just how many of the people buying new houses on the outskirts of Edenthorpe, Thorne, Askern, Harworth, Cantley, Edlington and most villages in the Doncaster Area think labour and go to the local working men's club.
Doncaster has every chance to be a Tory area in the very near future.
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The sad not so slow I suppose death of a political party that has lost it's core support being played out in public and becoming irrelevant.
A party that was polling 38% on Monday, 2% behind the Tories.
You don't half spout some ignorant b*llocks.
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Herbert, I can't see any of the no marks they put forward to put their case publicly being able do do anything but lead them deeper into the mire buddy.
And then there are still the old prats that are keeping a low profile publicity wise, but are still there agitating to get rid of the no marks, just what chance do you think they have of being relevant.
With average house prices over £250000 just how many of those people do you think want to share their lifestyle, and think of themselves as working class.
It's gone buddy the whole idea is history, just how many of the people buying new houses on the outskirts of Edenthorpe, Thorne, Askern, Harworth, Cantley, Edlington and most villages in the Doncaster Area think labour and go to the local working men's club.
Doncaster has every chance to be a Tory area in the very near future.
On the contrary Selby edenthorpe where I live has a fair mix of smaller type houses and some really quite expensive ones. The only party to show any interest here has been labour. Not even a flyer from any other party and the councillors do a decent job too so will easily win. But the village has a make up between both lower working class and the higher paid. Even my street is quite mixed, with only 9 houses covering 3 different council tax bands for example.
Parliamentary elections are different but it should be safe labour in the locals.
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The sad not so slow I suppose death of a political party that has lost it's core support being played out in public and becoming irrelevant.
A party that was polling 38% on Monday, 2% behind the Tories.
You don't half spout some ignorant b*llocks.
I suppose that depends on which poll you have seen and believe in.
A recent post on the Congratulations Keir Starmer thread suggests different figures in another poll that was taken.
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BFYP, I have always been of the opinion that party politics should not be part of local elections.
This country missed a trick when the Rate Payers Association tried to become a force in the 1970s local elections, and although standing on good platforms and getting some representation on local councils, when policy committees are formed in the county councils they are done on per centage representation and therefore had no authority to implement the actions they were elected to do.
Labour, liberal and the Conservative parties have got it wrapped up.
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The sad not so slow I suppose death of a political party that has lost it's core support being played out in public and becoming irrelevant.
A party that was polling 38% on Monday, 2% behind the Tories.
You don't half spout some ignorant b*llocks.
I suppose that depends on which poll you have seen and believe in.
A recent post on the Congratulations Keir Starmer thread suggests different figures in another poll that was taken.
That was the most recent nationwide poll to be published. All other ones in the past week have had Labour in mid-high 30% range.
What was your point? Given that I was responding to a post by Selby announcing Labour's decline into irrelevance.
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All polls in the last week have it between 1-5%, after the latest on Boris being a dodgy guy came out.
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1st time in a long time I genuinely have no idea which way my vote will go tomorrow
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I vote every time, aside from my civic duty it has a direct effect on my job in all honesty so at least Ive tried if we get a loon in. I can see how people don't bother though, our ward vote is for a list of names mostly completely unknown but nearly all labour and a previous incumbent so how do you choose? , Police commissioner? Anyone's guess who they are and what difference one over will make . Mayor wise at least you had some information to pick a favourite but imagine party politics will succeed .
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The sad not so slow I suppose death of a political party that has lost it's core support being played out in public and becoming irrelevant.
A party that was polling 38% on Monday, 2% behind the Tories.
You don't half spout some ignorant b*llocks.
I suppose that depends on which poll you have seen and believe in.
A recent post on the Congratulations Keir Starmer thread suggests different figures in another poll that was taken.
That was the most recent nationwide poll to be published. All other ones in the past week have had Labour in mid-high 30% range.
What was your point? Given that I was responding to a post by Selby announcing Labour's decline into irrelevance.
Ah, so because you were responding to selby no one else is allowed to join in.
You might want to remember that yourself in future then when you offer your opinion when two people are having a discussion.
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Hound.
Of course you are allowed to join in. I just haven't a clue what point you were trying to make. Selby had said Labour were sliding into oblivion. I said that wasn't in any way supported by the polls. If you were wanting to add to that substantive discussion, feel free.
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I already did that.
If you read what I wrote, I said that a post on the Congratulations Keir Starmer thread had other polls which had different stats.
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Yes. From a week ago. Before the effect of the latest allegations of Johnson's behaviour had worked through.
But in any case, what was that adding to the main theme about whether Labour were imploding? That's why I asked what point you were trying to make.
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There is much internal unrest in the Labour Party ranks, highlighted by some of the posts on this thread between Labour Party members.
IMO they are nowhere near being a serious challenger to overcome the Tories, despite their shortcomings.
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Hmm...
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Hmm...
Which establishment are receiving the middle finger from cool Conservatives?
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How are the right wing giving the middle finger to the establishment? :laugh::laugh:
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The right have invented this reality where they're both the sensible silent majority but also the anti-establishment too cool for school minority as well. Bizarre stuff.
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By establishment, I assume he refers to the establishment that has become snivelling and self-righteous, going around shaming everyone.
Whether I agree with him is not the point. The point is many, many people do agree with him, and that reflects on election results.
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I reckon BB meant the establishment of hungry children or nurses wanting more money instead of claps, or maybe even John Lewis.
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you reckon I meant?
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I never thought I'd see the day when John Lydon would turn into a golf club bore.
I say "never". I mean "not until about 1979" because he's been playing the same "Ooh, look how f**king edgy I am" lefty bashing trope for about as long as it takes John Bostock to track back from the halfway line when we lose possession.
Irrelevant old man becomes boring, ignorant reactionary. Who'd have thought it?
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Gunboat diplomacy, johnson must be feeling a tad nervous trying to shore up his stocks?
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I never thought I'd see the day when John Lydon would turn into a golf club bore.
I say "never". I mean "not until about 1979" because he's been playing the same "Ooh, look how f**king edgy I am" lefty bashing trope for about as long as it takes John Bostock to track back from the halfway line when we lose possession.
Irrelevant old man becomes boring, ignorant reactionary. Who'd have thought it?
What's wrong with being a reactionary in these days of political animosity? And, what's wrong with being an old man?
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I thought you'd be well equipped to answer that yourself bb
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What do you mean by that, Skippy? Oh, and why do you try to answer questions that are put to your leader when you can't answer those put to you?
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I can see you've been pending too much time with selby
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You see Skippy, THAT'S a typical example what John Lydon was referring to.
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what was?
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what was?
Your sniveling self-righteous last post, except, you weren't right!
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Nowt wrong with being old BB. I'm planning on getting there myself.
Being reactionary is a political choice though. And does much to fuel animosity because it is often based on focussing on the negative. As Lydon is doing.
Spouting b*llocks about a bunch of extremely wealthy, privately educated, well connected people like Johnson or Rees-Mogg being against The Establishment is such a perversion of language that it is beyond farcical. He is using the phrase The Establishment to mean "people whose opinion I don't like" rather than the true meaning. You think that doesn't fuel animosity?
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what was?
Your sniveling self-righteous last post, except, you weren't right!
Mixing whisky and selby is not good
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Nowt wrong with being old BB. I'm planning on getting there myself.
Being reactionary is a political choice though. And does much to fuel animosity because it is often based on focussing on the negative. As Lydon is doing.
Spouting b*llocks about a bunch of extremely wealthy, privately educated, well connected people like Johnson or Rees-Mogg being against The Establishment is such a perversion of language that it is beyond farcical. He is using the phrase The Establishment to mean "people whose opinion I don't like" rather than the true meaning. You think that doesn't fuel animosity?
Well, of course, BST, you'll know what he really meant, being superior to us all.
1)If there's now't wrong with being old, why do you mention it?
2) Don't you think YOU are guilty of animosity and focusing on the negative?
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I can see joe lydon and tommy yaxley robinson hand in hand as we speak
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Hope you're not watching those dodgy gay Aussie pornos again. Skip.
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What's wrong with being gay bb?
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There's nothing implicitly wrong with being old. But this older generation is a particularly reactionary one. So the fact that Lydon has become both old and reactionary is symbolic of his generation.
As for me pointing out negatives, as I've said times many, I only ever do it when supported by evidence. Just like I give praise when the evidence supports it. I've invited you times many to refute that and you never have done.
What do YOU do when the evidence suggests mistakes or wrongdoing?
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What's wrong with being gay bb?
Nothing at all, Skippy, as far as I'm concerned. What I am concerned about though, is, when did I say there was something wrong with being gay?
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Hope you're not watching those dodgy gay Aussie pornos again. Skip.
so either you mean gays are dodgy or porn is dodgy or both, when between consenting adults where neither is exploited there is nothing wrong,
What did you mean by dodgy?
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There's nothing implicitly wrong with being old. But this older generation is a particularly reactionary one. So the fact that Lydon has become both old and reactionary is symbolic of his generation.
As for me pointing out negatives, as I've said times many, I only ever do it when supported by evidence. Just like I give praise when the evidence supports it. I've invited you times many to refute that and you never have done.
What do YOU do when the evidence suggests mistakes or wrongdoing?
If there's nothing implicitly wrong with being old, why do you directly convey that he is old?
Does being symbolic of ones generation make them wrong?
You search and point out negatives, far, far more than you declare positives, and when you do declare positives, they are only tokens to use as evidence in future discussions, like this one.
Wen evidence suggests wrong doings, I expect the proper channels to deal with it, rather than a kangaroo court with the Guardian and the like as the judge and its readers as the jury.
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Hope you're not watching those dodgy gay Aussie pornos again. Skip.
so either you mean gays are dodgy or porn is dodgy or both, when between consenting adults where neither is exploited there is nothing wrong,
What did you mean by dodgy?
Nowt dodgy about gay or straight sex, Skip. It's the porn that's a bit dodgy. so I'm told. What do you think?
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Hope you're not watching those dodgy gay Aussie pornos again. Skip.
so either you mean gays are dodgy or porn is dodgy or both, when between consenting adults where neither is exploited there is nothing wrong,
What did you mean by dodgy?
You wrote it bb, please answer the question
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Skippy, I realize you're a bit hard of thinking, so don't you think you should wait until your leader or one of his higher up the ladder disciples come on board to point out that I've already answered your gay question?
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Hope you're not watching those dodgy gay Aussie pornos again. Skip.
so either you mean gays are dodgy or porn is dodgy or both, when between consenting adults where neither is exploited there is nothing wrong,
What did you mean by dodgy?
You wrote it bb, please answer the question
Avoiding the question, waiting for the cavalry, you have no clothes again bb
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You search and point out negatives, far, far more than you declare positives, and when you do declare positives, they are only tokens to use as evidence in future discussions, like this one.
And you accuse other people of stoking up animosity. Hopeless.
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I may be wrong here, but I don’t recall Lydon or the Sex Pistols being overtly political. I think The Clash were the red flag waving punks.
Although I disagree with his comment, I can see how some may have the perception. A few people accused Labour of losing their working class roots and becoming middle class, London-centric. Though saying that, my Labour MP is neither a Londoner nor middle class. She’s an excellent MP.
Back to Lydon, I remember listening to an interview with Danny Baker (I think) a few years ago. He said that John Lydon had turned into a John Lydon caricature over the years, trying too hard to be controversial. He appeared on a TV show and was perfectly pleasant to everyone until the cameras started running when he suddenly turned into a bit of a prick. Once the show ended, he turned back into pleasant John!!
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You search and point out negatives, far, far more than you declare positives, and when you do declare positives, they are only tokens to use as evidence in future discussions, like this one.
And you accuse other people of stoking up animosity. Hopeless.
Just fighting fire with fire, Billy. The posts condemning John Lydon's comment have only gone to prove that he has a point.
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I may be wrong here, but I don’t recall Lydon or the Sex Pistols being overtly political. I think The Clash were the red flag waving punks.
Although I disagree with his comment, I can see how some may have the perception. A few people accused Labour of losing their working class roots and becoming middle class, London-centric. Though saying that, my Labour MP is neither a Londoner nor middle class. She’s an excellent MP.
Back to Lydon, I remember listening to an interview with Danny Baker (I think) a few years ago. He said that John Lydon had turned into a John Lydon caricature over the years, trying too hard to be controversial. He appeared on a TV show and was perfectly pleasant to everyone until the cameras started running when he suddenly turned into a bit of a prick. Once the show ended, he turned back into pleasant John!!
In an attempt to look cool Johnson stated that he liked The Clash, I’m not sure he realised that they stood against everything he stood for
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You search and point out negatives, far, far more than you declare positives, and when you do declare positives, they are only tokens to use as evidence in future discussions, like this one.
And you accuse other people of stoking up animosity. Hopeless.
Just fighting fire with fire, Billy. The posts condemning John Lydon's comment have only gone to prove that he has a point.
How can you be conservative and anti-establishment? Don't they contradict each other? :laugh:
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Who says I'm conservative!
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you don't have to vote tory to be conservative, it's state of mind, a social philosophy
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I wonder if all the bands that people like match their own political beliefs.
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Could be Syds state of mind Hound, probably thinks he has a bad day coming on.
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I may be wrong here, but I don’t recall Lydon or the Sex Pistols being overtly political. I think The Clash were the red flag waving punks.
Although I disagree with his comment, I can see how some may have the perception. A few people accused Labour of losing their working class roots and becoming middle class, London-centric. Though saying that, my Labour MP is neither a Londoner nor middle class. She’s an excellent MP.
Back to Lydon, I remember listening to an interview with Danny Baker (I think) a few years ago. He said that John Lydon had turned into a John Lydon caricature over the years, trying too hard to be controversial. He appeared on a TV show and was perfectly pleasant to everyone until the cameras started running when he suddenly turned into a bit of a prick. Once the show ended, he turned back into pleasant John!!
In an attempt to look cool Johnson stated that he liked The Clash, I’m not sure he realised that they stood against everything he stood for
Didn’t David Cameron say that his favourite song was ‘Eton Rifles’ by The Jam? Paul Weller pointed out that the song was a direct criticism of people like Cameron!!
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you don't have to vote tory to be conservative, it's state of mind, a social philosophy
If it was a choice between Labour and Tory at this moment in time, I'd vote Tory all day long. A large part of the reason for that is because Labour attracts people like you.
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Who says I'm conservative!
If you're voting Conservatives then surely you're a conservative? I never directed it at you personally, it was directed at the people in the first half of John Lydons comments (although did he actually make them or is that a shit post where they put words in your mouth?)
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you don't have to vote tory to be conservative, it's state of mind, a social philosophy
If it was a choice between Labour and Tory at this moment in time, I'd vote Tory all day long. A large part of the reason for that is because Labour attracts people like you.
100% that.
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you don't have to vote tory to be conservative, it's state of mind, a social philosophy
If it was a choice between Labour and Tory at this moment in time, I'd vote Tory all day long. A large part of the reason for that is because Labour attracts people like you.
Who said I vote labour?
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you don't have to vote tory to be conservative, it's state of mind, a social philosophy
If it was a choice between Labour and Tory at this moment in time, I'd vote Tory all day long. A large part of the reason for that is because Labour attracts people like you.
Like I said before this is like saying I'm no longer going to support Rovers because it attracts people like BST or murham.
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I don't know about those two, but there are certainly elements of the Rovers support that makes me ashamed to be on the same side as them.
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Don't be so hard on yourself bb, it's just a political thread on a forum, nothing to get in a tizz about
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Syd, what's the political landscape like over there? Is it as polarised or is that a UK phenomenon
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Syd, what's the political landscape like over there? Is it as polarised or is that a UK phenomenon
Polarised, same media bias dominated by murdoch and to a lesser extent '7 west media' owned by kerry stokes. Australia is fairly conservative in general the Libs (conservative) are permanently in coalition with the national party that dominates non urban seats, supposedly representing farmers but in fact supporting the big miners. Both sides of politics take large donations from fossil fuel companies which maintains a status quo as far as climate change action.
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this was PM Morrison last week telling everyone god was on his side for the last election
Australian prime minister Scott Morrison tells conference of calling to 'God’s work' – video
https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/video/2021/apr/26/australian-prime-minister-scott-morrison-tells-conference-of-calling-to-gods-work-video
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Seems like polarisation and absolutes are worldwide then, a sad by product of social media echo Chambers?
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Not sure you can blame social media for the polarisation. social media has given a channel for different sides to confront each other whereas only a couple of decades ago they would not have come together so much
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I think id agree and disagree Syd, yes it's easier to come together but most ppl tend to interact with ppl who share their views which then reinforces those views.
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It's the way of the world at the moment Ldr.
Here's the root. Politics is basically a fight over two things. Economics and Culture.
The Right dominated the economics argument for decades from the 1970s. But they are all played out. It's been years since a meaningful new economic idea came from the Right. Austerity was their last throw of the dice but it was a ridiculous concept. All the fresh new ideas are now coming from the Left.
So the Right tacks off to concentrating on Culture. They focus people's aim on immigrants and foreign governments and tofu-eating Hampstead sandal wearers. They foment the division between people. And it has been successful around the world, from Johnson to Trump, to Bolsanaro to Modi to Orban.
It's a long, long way back from the bitterness this has generated, exemplified by the comments of Lydon.
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BST, you talk of it being the way of the world as though you are an innocent victim of it when in reality you are just as much a part of the problem as anybody else.
You have no more entitlement to be right than anyone else, and John Lydon is just as entitled to be as bitter as you are.
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Always the personal attacks bb, don't you get tired of painting yourself into corners?
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It's more an attack on BST's views than a personal one. If I said, for instance, guys like you who are approaching old age are just as much a part of the problem it would be more of a personal attack, but I didn't.
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I thought I'd just been hijacked onto the trump blog for a minute there
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Now, comparing me to Trump could be construed as a personal attack on me, although I suppose it would be a compliment to Trump.
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tell me what the difference is?
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The difference in what? Do you mean the difference between Trump and me?
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you don't have to vote tory to be conservative, it's state of mind, a social philosophy
If it was a choice between Labour and Tory at this moment in time, I'd vote Tory all day long. A large part of the reason for that is because Labour attracts people like you.
Who said I vote labour?
why do you do the personal attacks bb is it a feeling of inadequacy?
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Skipping questions again Skippy!
I never said you voted Labour. I suspect you aren't allowed to vote at all in the UK. I said Labour attracts people LIKE you.
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Hope you're not watching those dodgy gay Aussie pornos again. Skip.
so either you mean gays are dodgy or porn is dodgy or both, when between consenting adults where neither is exploited there is nothing wrong,
What did you mean by dodgy?
First things first bb, you haven't answered this yet
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Just done a bit of research for you Skippy. Be careful out there, it could be big down under.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/nicolenguyen/the-hidden-security-risks-of-free-porn-online
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Unsafe, why bb?
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BST, you talk of it being the way of the world as though you are an innocent victim of it when in reality you are just as much a part of the problem as anybody else.
You have no more entitlement to be right than anyone else, and John Lydon is just as entitled to be as bitter as you are.
Except BB as I say over and over, I ALWAYS back up my criticisms with evidence. That's the starting point of a rational debate.
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Unsafe, why bb?
I'm not sure I should be talking to you about that sort of adult stuff on the internet Skippy. Can't you ask someone close to you, like your parents, or a teacher you can trust perhaps?
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Interesting.....
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-says-super-thursday-24048064
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BST, you talk of it being the way of the world as though you are an innocent victim of it when in reality you are just as much a part of the problem as anybody else.
You have no more entitlement to be right than anyone else, and John Lydon is just as entitled to be as bitter as you are.
Except BB as I say over and over, I ALWAYS back up my criticisms with evidence. That's the starting point of a rational debate.
But, as I say over and over again, you're criticisms are one-sided and are often backed up with evidence from one-sided channels.
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Unsafe, why bb?
I'm not sure I should be talking to you about that sort of adult stuff on the internet Skippy. Can't you ask someone close to you, like your parents, or a teacher you can trust perhaps?
Are you saying I can't trust you bb, we are after all DR supporters, as for ''the adult stuff on the internet'' I'll have to bow to your expertise.
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Interesting.....
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-says-super-thursday-24048064
Just another brick in the wall MM, hopefully, we can't continue with johnson as a leader surely?
''As so often is the case, Donald Trump gets to the heart of the problem. On 6 January, he was the president of the United States: probably the most powerful man in the world. He should be free to speak his mind, and voters should be free to listen. But he was also a habitual liar who, by the end of his term, had edged into repudiating the very democracy that had elevated him''
Alan Rusbridger has said this today about trump, it could easily be about johnson, we need labour in to right the ship and sort out the detail later.
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BST, you talk of it being the way of the world as though you are an innocent victim of it when in reality you are just as much a part of the problem as anybody else.
You have no more entitlement to be right than anyone else, and John Lydon is just as entitled to be as bitter as you are.
Except BB as I say over and over, I ALWAYS back up my criticisms with evidence. That's the starting point of a rational debate.
But, as I say over and over again, you're criticisms are one-sided and are often backed up with evidence from one-sided channels.
So you continually say. In which case, it should be easy to refute my criticisms with contrary evidence. Try it.
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During a phone in down here, someone asked the question of why traditional Labour supporting working class folk suddenly think that the Tory Party are best placed to deal with their issues. A caller responded with a comment attributed to Aneurin Bevan:
“How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political power to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics in the 20th Century.”
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It goes along with " a good socialist is only a good socialist until someone else's money runs out".
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Interesting.....
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/keir-starmer-says-super-thursday-24048064
I don't mind kier starmer and he does a smart and professional job. I'm not sure he gives off the below impression though...
"driven by a burning desire to make this country the best place to grow up in and the best place to grow old in"
I'm not sure I buy that as his motivation and that might be something that's part of his problem. I did genuinely believe Corbyn on that front though he seamt authentic in his passion. Starmer doesn't.
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During a phone in down here, someone asked the question of why traditional Labour supporting working class folk suddenly think that the Tory Party are best placed to deal with their issues. A caller responded with a comment attributed to Aneurin Bevan:
“How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political power to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics in the 20th Century.”
There is one thing. In electing Tory MPs it becomes more difficult for the Tory government to simply ignore the red wall seats altogether.
Whilst the place was solidly Labour there was no incentive to do anything. Now they have voices from their own side demanding things.
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28.05% turnout for Doncaster, Reform UK (former Brexit Party) got the lowest amount of votes 1012 votes in the Mayoral election
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Just heard a comment on the wireless from a voter in Hartlepool. I’m not sure if it’s in the dark humour/tragic irony category yet.
The interviewer asked the lady how she’d voted in the by election yesterday. She answered that she’d voted Conservative for the first time after years of voting Labour. When he asked her why she’d changed her allegiance she replied that Hartlepool had received nothing for years, were always let down and that she felt it was time for a change. The interviewer then pointed out that she’d voted for the same party that’d been in power for 10 years. Silence followed while this fact sank in.....before she replied that a local factory had closed down a couple of years ago and Labour had done nothing to stop it happening.....Hmmmmm.
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Just heard a comment on the wireless from a voter in Hartlepool. I’m not sure if it’s in the dark humour/tragic irony category yet.
The interviewer asked the lady how she’d voted in the by election yesterday. She answered that she’d voted Conservative for the first time after years of voting Labour. When he asked her why she’d changed her allegiance she replied that Hartlepool had received nothing for years, were always let down and that she felt it was time for a change. The interviewer then pointed out that she’d voted for the same party that’d been in power for 10 years. Silence followed while this fact sank in.....before she replied that a local factory had closed down a couple of years ago and Labour had done nothing to stop it happening.....Hmmmmm.
Was the Labour candidate a French Spy?
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Labour wins the Doncaster Mayoral election
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This must be tongue in cheek too, no?
Hartlepool
''Winning Tory candidate Jill Mortimer says Labour has taken Hartlepool for granted for too long''
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/04/labour-tories-voters-keir-starmer
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This must be tongue in cheek too, no?
Hartlepool
''Winning Tory candidate Jill Mortimer says Labour has taken Hartlepool for granted for too long''
The Hartlepool MP will be like the Don Valley MP, lots of words on social media but nothing happens, just another Johnson yes person
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The Labour Party obviously need an inquest to understand fully what's going on in places like Hartlepool.
My guess, only a guess, is that Brexit is still alive in the minds of voters and Starmer is seen as being against it. Voters in places like Hartlepool feel let down over the years too. My hunch is there is a feeling in red wall seats with the Tories that if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
Obviously the lies and deceit of Johnson aren't cutting through. I think the Tories are getting credit for the vaccine rollout.
For me, I felt able to vote for Labour, for the first time in a while yesterday but it was only for a police and crime commissioner.
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Interesting to see John McDonnell stating the same as I had previously. Labour went in to these elections with no policies how could they persuade people to vote for them?
I'm still surprised how badly they have seemingly done. Boris had seemingly had a few tough weeks with questions around government funds yet the government just got a bit stronger and seem to be picking up more votes.
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The Labour Party obviously need an inquest to understand fully what's going on in places like Hartlepool.
My guess, only a guess, is that Brexit is still alive in the minds of voters and Starmer is seen as being against it. Voters in places like Hartlepool feel let down over the years too. My hunch is there is a feeling in red wall seats with the Tories that if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
Obviously the lies and deceit of Johnson aren't cutting through. I think the Tories are getting credit for the vaccine rollout.
For me, I felt able to vote for Labour, for the first time in a while yesterday but it was only for a police and crime commissioner.
Labour shed 7'000 votes from the 2019 Election yesterday in Hartlepool which was an atrocious performance by Labour on the back of their Brexit stance. 7'000 people willing to vote for Labour then have either decided that the party isn't the one that best represents them or even more worryingly, that they didn't vote at all.
However this has come at a good time for Labour, there's loads of time until a general election, they should be sending every figure they've got up there now and digging deep into where these votes have gone. No reactionary blame game but to quietly work out how they will change their current perception.
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The Labour Party obviously need an inquest to understand fully what's going on in places like Hartlepool.
My guess, only a guess, is that Brexit is still alive in the minds of voters and Starmer is seen as being against it. Voters in places like Hartlepool feel let down over the years too. My hunch is there is a feeling in red wall seats with the Tories that if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
Obviously the lies and deceit of Johnson aren't cutting through. I think the Tories are getting credit for the vaccine rollout.
For me, I felt able to vote for Labour, for the first time in a while yesterday but it was only for a police and crime commissioner.
Labour shed 7'000 votes from the 2019 Election yesterday in Hartlepool which was an atrocious performance by Labour on the back of their Brexit stance. 7'000 people willing to vote for Labour then have either decided that the party isn't the one that best represents them or even more worryingly, that they didn't vote at all.
However this has come at a good time for Labour, there's loads of time until a general election, they should be sending every figure they've got up there now and digging deep into where these votes have gone. No reactionary blame game but to quietly work out how they will change their current perception.
It perhaps looks more dramatic now because the shift had previously been hidden by the UKIP vote.
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Wesisback, there is no good time to be a loser. and when they have been serial losers for so long life becomes a bitch and people realise they are becoming irrelevant.
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In this election I voted against Johnson more than anything.
I think his handling of Covid has been generally shite. I know a lot of people give the Tories credit for the vaccine but beyond that it's been a shambles, even sinister. It's blatantly obvious he's a lying incompitent. There's nothing radical in that thought, it's what most of his party thinks.
I don't have any idea of what the candidates wanted to bring to the police commissioners role. I don't think I was really voting for anything in Starmers Labour Party. It was just a vote against Johnson.
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Wesisback, there is no good time to be a loser. and when they have been serial losers for so long life becomes a bitch and people realise they are becoming irrelevant.
you'd know all about that of course selby
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The Labour Party obviously need an inquest to understand fully what's going on in places like Hartlepool.
My guess, only a guess, is that Brexit is still alive in the minds of voters and Starmer is seen as being against it. Voters in places like Hartlepool feel let down over the years too. My hunch is there is a feeling in red wall seats with the Tories that if you can't beat 'em, join 'em.
Obviously the lies and deceit of Johnson aren't cutting through. I think the Tories are getting credit for the vaccine rollout.
For me, I felt able to vote for Labour, for the first time in a while yesterday but it was only for a police and crime commissioner.
Labour shed 7'000 votes from the 2019 Election yesterday in Hartlepool which was an atrocious performance by Labour on the back of their Brexit stance. 7'000 people willing to vote for Labour then have either decided that the party isn't the one that best represents them or even more worryingly, that they didn't vote at all.
However this has come at a good time for Labour, there's loads of time until a general election, they should be sending every figure they've got up there now and digging deep into where these votes have gone. No reactionary blame game but to quietly work out how they will change their current perception.
It perhaps looks more dramatic now because the shift had previously been hidden by the UKIP vote.
The people who had previously voted Brexit still had a choice though and they didn’t vote Labour.
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Wesisback, there is no good time to be a loser. and when they have been serial losers for so long life becomes a bitch and people realise they are becoming irrelevant.
Whether that is Labour or not an opposition will emerge. I've not even found a staunch Tory that believes a one party state is a good thing (there really is no good examples of this).
In my opinion (and its only mine as it would defeat the point that there shouldn't be an instantaneous reaction) Labour has become even more complacent in the last year of offering a substantial difference. I'm sure they exist but if the majority of voters on this post who care enough to comment don't know, what chance does Joe Public have?
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Labour wins the Doncaster Mayoral election
I think the Tories will be pleased to increase their vote share and taking it to second preferences. They'll be disappointed if they pick up no councillors though surely?
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Wesisback, there is no good time to be a loser. and when they have been serial losers for so long life becomes a bitch and people realise they are becoming irrelevant.
Whether that is Labour or not an opposition will emerge. I've not even found a staunch Tory that believes a one party state is a good thing (there really is no good examples of this).
In my opinion (and its only mine as it would defeat the point that there shouldn't be an instantaneous reaction) Labour has become even more complacent in the last year of offering a substantial difference. I'm sure they exist but if the majority of voters on this post who care enough to comment don't know, what chance does Joe Public have?
100% our system works best with effective opposition to curb the incumbent party (whichever way round they are at the time).
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https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/may/04/labour-tories-voters-keir-starmer
......and that is from The Guardian.
Says a lot.
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but if you don't read the guardian how would you know hound?
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but if you don't read the guardian how would you know hound?
Have a guess.
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the travellers told you?
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the travellers told you?
.
You know what, if that article had been supporting Starmer you would probably have been the first to post the link.
Instead you are quietly licking your wounds and trying to provoke people into arguments.
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Syd, go to bed, curl up in a little ball and have a bit of time to yourself, go no you know you want to do it.
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You and hound should get a room together
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(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EW54-lhXQAASZZb.jpg)
Seems particularly relevant today.
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MM, the same thing happens when DRFC has problems, some supporters rip apart the players, the management the board and anyone else with to whom they can direct their frustrations, then there is the WUMs who keep poking and prodding but are totally surprised and miffed when someone has a go back.
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Interesting to see John McDonnell stating the same as I had previously. Labour went in to these elections with no policies how could they persuade people to vote for them?
I'm still surprised how badly they have seemingly done. Boris had seemingly had a few tough weeks with questions around government funds yet the government just got a bit stronger and seem to be picking up more votes.
If only it were that simple.
Labour went into the 2019 election with policies pouring out of every orifice, but they would still have lost Hartlepoo if the Brexit party hadn't taken 20-odd percent of the vote.
Anyone who clicks their fingers and proposes a simple solution to a complex problem that has been a generation in the making should stop and think a bit harder. Hartlepool is a perfect example of the skill with which the Tories have directed people's ire over economic stagnation into the culture war. How Labour addresses that, I honestly don't know, but simply suggessting that a suite of policies would have made it alright is nonsense.
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BST this is what you are up against and is a widespread thought in my experience. Nicked from a friends fb
I’ve always voted Labour and couldn’t stomach voting Tory because of the memory of my late grandad who was a proper Labour man - however this present lot have lost the working class completely in this country they represent nothing but a very narrow metropolitan elite who sneer at ordinary working people - it’s a crime really that despite everything we’ve only got an opposition in name only
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The Labour Party would do well to spend less time bashing the tories and actually getting on at being a proper opposition party. I think it’s too late for them though for now. We won’t see a re appearance of the Labour Party, as a meaningful political force in this country for some time IMO. People have had enough of the he said, she said politics that has been rife in this country for some years now.
No- one actually knows what the Labour Party actually stand for anymore. And that is their biggest issue.
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This was never going to be the time NR but it could have been better, it's too close to a very bad GE defeat.
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BST this is what you are up against and is a widespread thought in my experience. Nicked from a friends fb
I’ve always voted Labour and couldn’t stomach voting Tory because of the memory of my late grandad who was a proper Labour man - however this present lot have lost the working class completely in this country they represent nothing but a very narrow metropolitan elite who sneer at ordinary working people - it’s a crime really that despite everything we’ve only got an opposition in name only
And yet the working class are prepared to vote for the party of the proper elite who certainly sneer at ordinary working people - indeed have written books and newspaper articles on how lazy and overpaid they are!!
Thats the conundrum. People seem to think that 'Labour' sneer at the working class -when they actually dont and the vast majority of their membership are working class - you wanna see my bricklaying certificates - but that the Tories dont - when they properly despise them.
Labour need a postive agenda/policies - but they also need better media management to get that positive message over. Can Starmer do that, well...
But well done Boris, big win, everybody should be gracious enough to accept that.
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The current government are certainly riding the crest of the covid wave. But starmer has inherited a trashed brand from 20 years of Corbyn, brown, milliband and co.
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BST this is what you are up against and is a widespread thought in my experience. Nicked from a friends fb
I’ve always voted Labour and couldn’t stomach voting Tory because of the memory of my late grandad who was a proper Labour man - however this present lot have lost the working class completely in this country they represent nothing but a very narrow metropolitan elite who sneer at ordinary working people - it’s a crime really that despite everything we’ve only got an opposition in name only
And yet the working class are prepared to vote for the party of the proper elite who certainly sneer at ordinary working people - indeed have written books and newspaper articles on how lazy and overpaid they are!!
Thats the conundrum. People seem to think that 'Labour' sneer at the working class -when they actually dont and the vast majority of their membership are working class - you wanna see my bricklaying certificates - but that the Tories dont - when they properly despise them.
Labour need a postive agenda/policies - but they also need better media management to get that positive message over. Can Starmer do that, well...
But well done Boris, big win, everybody should be gracious enough to accept that.
That's the crux Wilts, perception and image are everything these days.
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BST this is what you are up against and is a widespread thought in my experience. Nicked from a friends fb
I’ve always voted Labour and couldn’t stomach voting Tory because of the memory of my late grandad who was a proper Labour man - however this present lot have lost the working class completely in this country they represent nothing but a very narrow metropolitan elite who sneer at ordinary working people - it’s a crime really that despite everything we’ve only got an opposition in name only
And yet the working class are prepared to vote for the party of the proper elite who certainly sneer at ordinary working people - indeed have written books and newspaper articles on how lazy and overpaid they are!!
Thats the conundrum. People seem to think that 'Labour' sneer at the working class -when they actually dont and the vast majority of their membership are working class - you wanna see my bricklaying certificates - but that the Tories dont - when they properly despise them.
Labour need a postive agenda/policies - but they also need better media management to get that positive message over. Can Starmer do that, well...
But well done Boris, big win, everybody should be gracious enough to accept that.
Whilst the opinion of the likes of Johnson towards the working class may be that of a “sneering” type, you cannot dispute the fact that this govt has helped pay the wages of millions of people over the last year. I wonder what a Labour govt would have done?
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Why wouldn't they have done it is a better question, they are after all the better economic mangers out of the two parties and have never to my knowledge implemented ''austerity''
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BST this is what you are up against and is a widespread thought in my experience. Nicked from a friends fb
I’ve always voted Labour and couldn’t stomach voting Tory because of the memory of my late grandad who was a proper Labour man - however this present lot have lost the working class completely in this country they represent nothing but a very narrow metropolitan elite who sneer at ordinary working people - it’s a crime really that despite everything we’ve only got an opposition in name only
And yet the working class are prepared to vote for the party of the proper elite who certainly sneer at ordinary working people - indeed have written books and newspaper articles on how lazy and overpaid they are!!
Thats the conundrum. People seem to think that 'Labour' sneer at the working class -when they actually dont and the vast majority of their membership are working class - you wanna see my bricklaying certificates - but that the Tories dont - when they properly despise them.
Labour need a postive agenda/policies - but they also need better media management to get that positive message over. Can Starmer do that, well...
But well done Boris, big win, everybody should be gracious enough to accept that.
Whilst the opinion of the likes of Johnson towards the working class may be that of a “sneering” type, you cannot dispute the fact that this govt has helped pay the wages of millions of people over the last year. I wonder what a Labour govt would have done?
You do realise that it’s not free money that the Government have been handing out don’t you? It’s got to be paid back at some point and there 2 possible ways this will happen:-
1. Increase taxes on the well off
2. Cut public services for the less well off
Which one do you think the Tories will do?
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BST this is what you are up against and is a widespread thought in my experience. Nicked from a friends fb
I’ve always voted Labour and couldn’t stomach voting Tory because of the memory of my late grandad who was a proper Labour man - however this present lot have lost the working class completely in this country they represent nothing but a very narrow metropolitan elite who sneer at ordinary working people - it’s a crime really that despite everything we’ve only got an opposition in name only
And yet the working class are prepared to vote for the party of the proper elite who certainly sneer at ordinary working people - indeed have written books and newspaper articles on how lazy and overpaid they are!!
Thats the conundrum. People seem to think that 'Labour' sneer at the working class -when they actually dont and the vast majority of their membership are working class - you wanna see my bricklaying certificates - but that the Tories dont - when they properly despise them.
Labour need a postive agenda/policies - but they also need better media management to get that positive message over. Can Starmer do that, well...
But well done Boris, big win, everybody should be gracious enough to accept that.
Whilst the opinion of the likes of Johnson towards the working class may be that of a “sneering” type, you cannot dispute the fact that this govt has helped pay the wages of millions of people over the last year. I wonder what a Labour govt would have done?
You do realise that it’s not free money that the Government have been handing out don’t you? It’s got to be paid back at some point and there 2 possible ways this will happen:-
1. Increase taxes on the well off
2. Cut public services for the less well off
Which one do you think the Tories will do?
HA, one of our prominent posters told us not long ago that neither of those options were the way to “pay off” the inevitable debt that COVID has thrust upon us and other nations around the World.
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How would you pay off the debt hound?
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BST this is what you are up against and is a widespread thought in my experience. Nicked from a friends fb
I’ve always voted Labour and couldn’t stomach voting Tory because of the memory of my late grandad who was a proper Labour man - however this present lot have lost the working class completely in this country they represent nothing but a very narrow metropolitan elite who sneer at ordinary working people - it’s a crime really that despite everything we’ve only got an opposition in name only
And yet the working class are prepared to vote for the party of the proper elite who certainly sneer at ordinary working people - indeed have written books and newspaper articles on how lazy and overpaid they are!!
Thats the conundrum. People seem to think that 'Labour' sneer at the working class -when they actually dont and the vast majority of their membership are working class - you wanna see my bricklaying certificates - but that the Tories dont - when they properly despise them.
Labour need a postive agenda/policies - but they also need better media management to get that positive message over. Can Starmer do that, well...
But well done Boris, big win, everybody should be gracious enough to accept that.
Whilst the opinion of the likes of Johnson towards the working class may be that of a “sneering” type, you cannot dispute the fact that this govt has helped pay the wages of millions of people over the last year. I wonder what a Labour govt would have done?
You do realise that it’s not free money that the Government have been handing out don’t you? It’s got to be paid back at some point and there 2 possible ways this will happen:-
1. Increase taxes on the well off
2. Cut public services for the less well off
Which one do you think the Tories will do?
HA, one of our prominent posters told us not long ago that neither of those options were the way to “pay off” the inevitable debt that COVID has thrust upon us and other nations around the World.
Maybe so Hound, but based on history I’d bet my bottom dollar that one of those 2 options will be used.
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BBC reporting that Labour's Hartlepool defeat worse than party polling...
Party insiders tell me Labour's defeat in Hartlepool was even worse than their own private polling predicted.
This pointed to the Conservatives winning a 5,000 vote majority, whereas in the end it was nearly 7,000.
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One of those options will be used and it doesn't matter the opinion of people on here. We should be doing the alternative though, we need to spend to create more businesses and people in jobs, that'll in turn mean more coming into the government to pay off the debt. We don't need to enforce austerity again, theres never a need for it.
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Labour politicians and to an extend some activists and members are finding out that implying the electorate are thick xenophobic racists may not be the best way to get their votes
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BST this is what you are up against and is a widespread thought in my experience. Nicked from a friends fb
I’ve always voted Labour and couldn’t stomach voting Tory because of the memory of my late grandad who was a proper Labour man - however this present lot have lost the working class completely in this country they represent nothing but a very narrow metropolitan elite who sneer at ordinary working people - it’s a crime really that despite everything we’ve only got an opposition in name only
And yet the working class are prepared to vote for the party of the proper elite who certainly sneer at ordinary working people - indeed have written books and newspaper articles on how lazy and overpaid they are!!
Thats the conundrum. People seem to think that 'Labour' sneer at the working class -when they actually dont and the vast majority of their membership are working class - you wanna see my bricklaying certificates - but that the Tories dont - when they properly despise them.
Labour need a postive agenda/policies - but they also need better media management to get that positive message over. Can Starmer do that, well...
But well done Boris, big win, everybody should be gracious enough to accept that.
Whilst the opinion of the likes of Johnson towards the working class may be that of a “sneering” type, you cannot dispute the fact that this govt has helped pay the wages of millions of people over the last year. I wonder what a Labour govt would have done?
You do realise that it’s not free money that the Government have been handing out don’t you? It’s got to be paid back at some point and there 2 possible ways this will happen:-
1. Increase taxes on the well off
2. Cut public services for the less well off
Which one do you think the Tories will do?
HA, one of our prominent posters told us not long ago that neither of those options were the way to “pay off” the inevitable debt that COVID has thrust upon us and other nations around the World.
Maybe so Hound, but based on history I’d bet my bottom dollar that one of those 2 options will be used.
Possibly so HA.
Hindsight will tell us I guess.
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Labour politicians and to an extend some activists and members are finding out that implying the electorate are thick xenophobic racists may not be the best way to get their votes
But based on that logic, the working class would never vote Tory! The Tories have abused the working class for 40 years! Remember the miners strike, Tebbitt telling the unemployed to get on their bikes, heavy industries closed with no replacement work? It’s absolutely inaccurate for anyone to believe that the Tories are friends of the working classes.
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Stainforth and Barnaby Dun Ward now have a conservative ward member of
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Stainforth and Barnaby Dun Ward now have a conservative ward member of
Always knew Filo was a closet Tory, he will be delighted.
The labour councillors won in my area, reduced majority but deserved. Party politics in government shouldn't force good local councillors out.
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What an embarrassment and total f*cking disgrace. Sitting governments rarely win by-elections, so for a Tory government beset by sleaze allegations to win a seat that has been Labour for nearly 50 years, by a staggering 7000 votes is beyond abysmal; and who were the clowns responsible for putting a pro-EU Remainer up in a seat in an area that voted 70% for Brexit?
It's now clear that the current Labour Party are representative of the liberalist middle classes of London and the South East, and are totally unable to connect to the working class people of the North and North-East.
This is a major problem that desperately needs sorting out, or 2024 will become another humiliation.
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How can they sort it Steve, for five years they have been telling us the same thing, even the different people they have put in front of us have come up with the same clap trap, publically said people don't know what they are doing, putting forward the clap trap that is put forward by the woke agenda, telling people that the way they live their lives is not right, and basically most of the population especially the older end are uneducated racist bigots.
Now the in words are we have to listen and change, change what? the way they think or the words that come out of their mouths just to try and get support, but mean very little.
They are finished buddy, its even more down hill from here just like in Scotland.
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What an embarrassment and total f*cking disgrace. Sitting governments rarely win by-elections, so for a Tory government beset by sleaze allegations to win a seat that has been Labour for nearly 50 years, by a staggering 7000 votes is beyond abysmal; and who were the clowns responsible for putting a pro-EU Remainer up in a seat in an area that voted 70% for Brexit?
It's now clear that the current Labour Party are representative of the liberalist middle classes of London and the South East, and are totally unable to connect to the working class people of the North and North-East.
This is a major problem that desperately needs sorting out, or 2024 will become another humiliation.
They've managed to somehow be totally shyte scared of the very voters they seek to attract or attract back .
So the only option available is to say nowt and do nothing .
Corbyn as a leaver didn't want to pyss off the remainers and Starmer doesn't want to pyss of the leavers .
That's pretty much where the political divides of today are , they aren't left , right or centre anymore .
Where you placed your vote in 2016 is the battleground today .
This is how the Tories have cut through in the former Red Wall and thrown the old arguments out of the window .
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How can they sort it Steve, for five years they have been telling us the same thing, even the different people they have put in front of us have come up with the same clap trap, publically said people don't know what they are doing, putting forward the clap trap that is put forward by the woke agenda, telling people that the way they live their lives is not right, and basically most of the population especially the older end are uneducated racist bigots.
Now the in words are we have to listen and change, change what? the way they think or the words that come out of their mouths just to try and get support, but mean very little.
They are finished buddy, its even more down hill from here just like in Scotland.
Selby, the Tories have been treating the working class like that for decades though! The Tories have done nothing for the working classes, so using that logic they’d not vote for them now!
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Stainforth and Barnaby Dun Ward now have a conservative ward member of
Always knew Filo was a closet Tory, he will be delighted.
The labour councillors won in my area, reduced majority but deserved. Party politics in government shouldn't force good local councillors out.
embarrassed more like, but with a turnout of 27% hardly surprising, Lee Pitcher the labour candidate that never got in knocked on my door last week, he was like a nodding dog when I ripped into him about the state of the Labour Party
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What an embarrassment and total f*cking disgrace. Sitting governments rarely win by-elections, so for a Tory government beset by sleaze allegations to win a seat that has been Labour for nearly 50 years, by a staggering 7000 votes is beyond abysmal; and who were the clowns responsible for putting a pro-EU Remainer up in a seat in an area that voted 70% for Brexit?
It's now clear that the current Labour Party are representative of the liberalist middle classes of London and the South East, and are totally unable to connect to the working class people of the North and North-East.
This is a major problem that desperately needs sorting out, or 2024 will become another humiliation.
But again this doesn't make any sense.
The party that won the Hartlepool by-election is led by an Old Etonian public schoolboy, who is an ex-Fleet Street newspaper journalist, son of an MEP and EU diplomat, who was brought up in North London. He couldn't be any more metropolitan if he had it tatooed on him. His two chancellors have been City bankers and hedge fund managers - both of whom played a significant part in causing the banking crises!
Keir Starmer is the son of a toolmaker and an NHS nurse - and his Mrs works in the NHS!
But somehow the Tories (the actual party of the liberal elite, in fact the actual party of the neo-liberal global elite) have convinced you that they are the party of the working class - whilst the party that is funded by the trade unions and its members, the actual working class - isn't.
Labour need a better message to, from and in the media. How they do that when its stacked against them - well...
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Wilts, people like you are part of the problem. Unable to acknowledge the issues that prevent the middle ground voting for Labour and all you can do is reference the Tories or call people (I can't remember whether was selby or hound) a fascist
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More criticism of the Labour party has come in from one of its own MPs - and he doesn't hold back.
Khalid Mahmood - who was until a few weeks ago a shadow defence minister - says: "A London-based bourgeoisie, with the support of brigades of woke social media warriors, has effectively captured the party.
"They mean well, of course, but their politics – obsessed with identity, division and even tech utopianism – have more in common with those of Californian high society than the kind of people who voted in Hartlepool yesterday.
"The loudest voices in the Labour movement over the past year in particular have focused more on pulling down Churchill’s statue than they have on helping people pull themselves up in the world.
"A bit of superficial flag-waving – reinforced by urgent memos from party HQ – isn’t going to fix that.
"We fix that by supporting jobs in these so-called left behind areas – with changes to public procurement, for example, that bring jobs back to the UK and support manufacturing jobs, including those in high tech, advanced manufacturing."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-57016689
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What an embarrassment and total f*cking disgrace. Sitting governments rarely win by-elections, so for a Tory government beset by sleaze allegations to win a seat that has been Labour for nearly 50 years, by a staggering 7000 votes is beyond abysmal; and who were the clowns responsible for putting a pro-EU Remainer up in a seat in an area that voted 70% for Brexit?
It's now clear that the current Labour Party are representative of the liberalist middle classes of London and the South East, and are totally unable to connect to the working class people of the North and North-East.
This is a major problem that desperately needs sorting out, or 2024 will become another humiliation.
But again this doesn't make any sense.
The party that won the Hartlepool by-election is led by an Old Etonian public schoolboy, who is an ex-Fleet Street newspaper journalist, son of an MEP and EU diplomat, who was brought up in North London. He couldn't be any more metropolitan if he had it tatooed on him. His two chancellors have been City bankers and hedge fund managers - both of whom played a significant part in causing the banking crises!
Keir Starmer is the son of a toolmaker and an NHS nurse - and his Mrs works in the NHS!
But somehow the Tories (the actual party of the liberal elite, in fact the actual party of the neo-liberal global elite) have convinced you that they are the party of the working class - whilst the party that is funded by the trade unions and its members, the actual working class - isn't.
Labour need a better message to, from and in the media. How they do that when its stacked against them - well...
Wilts, everything I've tried to convey in my post is exactly the same as what you're saying. The whole thing is a paradox; working class people in the North-East voting for a party that's always represented the rich elite in the South.
So you ask yourself, why? For me there are 2 answers. Firstly, left wing socialists such as yourself, and ex-Trade Unionists such as Tyke and myself, have been cast aside to make way for young liberalists and centrists with their political correctness and woke ideas.
Secondly, almost all of the North and North-East were utterly and totally insulted by one of the most outrageous anti-democratic decisions I've seen in my lifetime, the insistence that people had voted the wrong way, and therefore would have to vote again. Those wounds have just never been healed, and I doubt ever will be.
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What an embarrassment and total f*cking disgrace. Sitting governments rarely win by-elections, so for a Tory government beset by sleaze allegations to win a seat that has been Labour for nearly 50 years, by a staggering 7000 votes is beyond abysmal; and who were the clowns responsible for putting a pro-EU Remainer up in a seat in an area that voted 70% for Brexit?
It's now clear that the current Labour Party are representative of the liberalist middle classes of London and the South East, and are totally unable to connect to the working class people of the North and North-East.
This is a major problem that desperately needs sorting out, or 2024 will become another humiliation.
But again this doesn't make any sense.
The party that won the Hartlepool by-election is led by an Old Etonian public schoolboy, who is an ex-Fleet Street newspaper journalist, son of an MEP and EU diplomat, who was brought up in North London. He couldn't be any more metropolitan if he had it tatooed on him. His two chancellors have been City bankers and hedge fund managers - both of whom played a significant part in causing the banking crises!
Keir Starmer is the son of a toolmaker and an NHS nurse - and his Mrs works in the NHS!
But somehow the Tories (the actual party of the liberal elite, in fact the actual party of the neo-liberal global elite) have convinced you that they are the party of the working class - whilst the party that is funded by the trade unions and its members, the actual working class - isn't.
Labour need a better message to, from and in the media. How they do that when its stacked against them - well...
The electorate of Hartlepool are entitled to be represented politically by whoever they choose under a democratic process .
They've chosen a Tory .
That's who they feel best represents them culturally .
My last sentence is possibly key as to why Labour lost so heavily .
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I mean that's just shameless playing to the gallery from that labour mp. The minute anyone uses the word "woke" these days you can basically guarantee they're talking absolute shite. Mr Mahmood has one eye on his own seat, you feel.
Labour's issues go back to when Blair was in power. The current leadership's strategy to fix that seems to just be to call the last bloke a racist and offer tepid slogans about jobs and flags.
I mean, look at the process for Hartlepool. Party HQ selected a candidate from a shortlist of 1. The candidate had just been voted out of a nearby constituency, was an arch remainer and had a questionable track record with the Saudis. He's possibly the worst candidate they could have chosen for a highly contested election. That has nothing to do with being "woke". It's just stupidity. And arrogance.
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Who would have chosen the Labour candidate for Hartlepool.
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The decision to select a Remainer for Hartlepool was probably with the (wrong) reasoning that the majority of Leavers had changed their minds and now wanted to remain.
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Who would have chosen the Labour candidate for Hartlepool.
Hound,
The local Labour Party should choose, from a shortlist they have selected following due process.
Anyone who thinks the London HQ should parachute a candidate in, like they did before with the dreadful Mandelson, has not understood the importance of local democracy.
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Who would have chosen the Labour candidate for Hartlepool.
Hound,
The local Labour Party should choose, from a shortlist they have selected following due process.
Anyone who thinks the London HQ should parachute a candidate in, like they did before with the dreadful Mandelson, has not understood the importance of local democracy.
Cheers albie, I didn’t know who was responsible, that is all.
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I mean that's just shameless playing to the gallery from that labour mp. The minute anyone uses the word "woke" these days you can basically guarantee they're talking absolute shite. Mr Mahmood has one eye on his own seat, you feel.
Labour's issues go back to when Blair was in power. The current leadership's strategy to fix that seems to just be to call the last bloke a racist and offer tepid slogans about jobs and flags.
I mean, look at the process for Hartlepool. Party HQ selected a candidate from a shortlist of 1. The candidate had just been voted out of a nearby constituency, was an arch remainer and had a questionable track record with the Saudis. He's possibly the worst candidate they could have chosen for a highly contested election. That has nothing to do with being "woke". It's just stupidity. And arrogance.
The one thing that's always struck me with these so called culture wars , although the majority of people in this country don't actually even know what a culture war is , I'll get to the point .
Class politics ????
The thing nobody wants to talk about , acknowledge or even admit exists .
Just my experience of many years but the ethnic divides were always distinguished within trade union membership .
That was the one thing that bound people together and cut through cultural , religious or you name it divisions .
Why is it when I mention Trade Unions I automatically think a significant number of people are going to point the finger and say dinosaur ? .
The truth is migrants and the lower paid Brit all had the same issues , exploitation , pay , housing and what have you .
With the key fundamentals , we are all the same .
It's something in my opinion that historically cut through the divides .
If someone has a better option I'd be happy to hear it .
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What an embarrassment and total f*cking disgrace. Sitting governments rarely win by-elections, so for a Tory government beset by sleaze allegations to win a seat that has been Labour for nearly 50 years, by a staggering 7000 votes is beyond abysmal; and who were the clowns responsible for putting a pro-EU Remainer up in a seat in an area that voted 70% for Brexit?
It's now clear that the current Labour Party are representative of the liberalist middle classes of London and the South East, and are totally unable to connect to the working class people of the North and North-East.
This is a major problem that desperately needs sorting out, or 2024 will become another humiliation.
But again this doesn't make any sense.
The party that won the Hartlepool by-election is led by an Old Etonian public schoolboy, who is an ex-Fleet Street newspaper journalist, son of an MEP and EU diplomat, who was brought up in North London. He couldn't be any more metropolitan if he had it tatooed on him. His two chancellors have been City bankers and hedge fund managers - both of whom played a significant part in causing the banking crises!
Keir Starmer is the son of a toolmaker and an NHS nurse - and his Mrs works in the NHS!
But somehow the Tories (the actual party of the liberal elite, in fact the actual party of the neo-liberal global elite) have convinced you that they are the party of the working class - whilst the party that is funded by the trade unions and its members, the actual working class - isn't.
Labour need a better message to, from and in the media. How they do that when its stacked against them - well...
The electorate of Hartlepool are entitled to be represented politically by whoever they choose under a democratic process .
They've chosen a Tory .
That's who they feel best represents them culturally .
My last sentence is possibly key as to why Labour lost so heavily .
Tyke,
I posted this morning about a ‘vox pop’ I’d heard on the radio with a voter. She’d said that she’d voted Tory for the first time after years of voting Labour as she thought “It was time for a change”. The interviewer then reminded her that she’d voted for the party that’d been in power for 10 years. There followed a silence as this sank in that was palpable. This is what Labour need to deal with. People in Hartlepool believe that all their problems are down to the opposition party rather than those in power. Remarkable stuff.
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Apparently Hartlepool is the 10th most deprived area in England after 10 years of a Tory government. I am genuinely baffled about what the people of Hartlepool feel that the government does for them! Could a Labour Government really do worse for towns like Hartlepool when you’re still classed as a deprived area after 10 years under the Tories? Surely they’d have realised by now that nothing is going to get better? Or maybe I’m completely missing something else?
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Apparently Hartlepool is the 10th most deprived area in England after 10 years of a Tory government. I am genuinely baffled about what the people of Hartlepool feel that the government does for them! Could a Labour Government really do worse for towns like Hartlepool when you’re still classed as a deprived area after 10 years under the Tories? Surely they’d have realised by now that nothing is going to get better? Or maybe I’m completely missing something else?
Economically the path that Starmer was undertaking wasn't historically going to deliver much prosperity either and culturally he was massively wide of the mark .
At least culture connects .
This is the thing , culture supersedes economics in the former industrial heartlands .
When you've nowt no matter who is in power then culture is massively important .
Food for thought .
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Wilts, I agree with what you are saying mostly about the Tory party, they have always been that way, Labour however have morphed into the same ways, and are insulting with it. The university educated MPs they put in front of the cameras have the attitude of superiority and we know best flowing out from their mouths.
They are finished, people have had enough of the clap trap, taken for granted and being told that because of age, what part of the country they live in, the way they talk, that London is really England and all things have to be centred there, that the UK is nothing to be proud of, that we are little Englanders, that we are now Europeans, the Union flag is not to be flown or respected, that Federal Europe is the way we should go, it is not going to wash anymore, especially from the party that people like those who hold all those things dear to them, And by the way I can remember Hartlepool in the 15 years that Labour were in charge of them and in that period like a lot of the North East industries Labour shut them down.
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Labour on Doncaster council actually increased their majority by one
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That's the end of any hope of ever getting that god awful road through Bentley repaired then, and probably congestion charges soon.
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What an embarrassment and total f*cking disgrace. Sitting governments rarely win by-elections, so for a Tory government beset by sleaze allegations to win a seat that has been Labour for nearly 50 years, by a staggering 7000 votes is beyond abysmal; and who were the clowns responsible for putting a pro-EU Remainer up in a seat in an area that voted 70% for Brexit?
It's now clear that the current Labour Party are representative of the liberalist middle classes of London and the South East, and are totally unable to connect to the working class people of the North and North-East.
This is a major problem that desperately needs sorting out, or 2024 will become another humiliation.
But again this doesn't make any sense.
The party that won the Hartlepool by-election is led by an Old Etonian public schoolboy, who is an ex-Fleet Street newspaper journalist, son of an MEP and EU diplomat, who was brought up in North London. He couldn't be any more metropolitan if he had it tatooed on him. His two chancellors have been City bankers and hedge fund managers - both of whom played a significant part in causing the banking crises!
Keir Starmer is the son of a toolmaker and an NHS nurse - and his Mrs works in the NHS!
But somehow the Tories (the actual party of the liberal elite, in fact the actual party of the neo-liberal global elite) have convinced you that they are the party of the working class - whilst the party that is funded by the trade unions and its members, the actual working class - isn't.
Labour need a better message to, from and in the media. How they do that when its stacked against them - well...
Boris Johnsons Great Grandmother was a slave a sex slave even put that in yer pipe and smoke it!
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That's the end of any hope of ever getting that god awful road through Bentley repaired then, and probably congestion charges soon.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/21/exclusive-labour-councils-in-england-hit-harder-by-austerity-than-tory-areas
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That's the end of any hope of ever getting that god awful road through Bentley repaired then, and probably congestion charges soon.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/jun/21/exclusive-labour-councils-in-england-hit-harder-by-austerity-than-tory-areas
At what point is it ever going to reconcile with such as yourself that it's not what the tories are , have ever been or ever likely to be .
But what Labour is , stands by , connects with , has credible policies and cut through to election success .
Pointing at the Tories , pardon me for saying ain't exactly working .
FFS give the electorate something to vote FOR .
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Just tell this this one thing Tyke, if brexit was so damned good why didn't Corbyn support it?
Nothing Tyke, nothing at all?
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Just tell this this one thing Tyke, if brexit was so damned good why didn't Corbyn support it?
Corbyn knew what the EU was as a backbench MP , slightly different take when you are leader and have to appease the Labour factions , weak , coward , what ever .
We've all taken a hit on the left with this Brexit thing , even Skinner as anti EU as he was lost his seat ffs .
I could easily push this the other way .
If back in centre Labour control why doesn't Starmer stand up , have a pair and make the case for what he actually believes in .
Make the case forejoining the EU , at worst have better links .
Even though I'm against that I'd at least respect his convictions .
Weak , weak and weak .
As somebody once said who won 3 elections .
As much as I loath the fecker , at least Blair stood up at the Labour Party Conference and told us how it was going to be with Clause what ever it was .
Cowards and weak today .
Starmer stands for nothing , connects with nobody and is nothing .
I'll respect someone who stands up whether I agree with him or not .
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''Why doesn't Starmer'' now you're sounding like selby
When I answered the selby dim question about potholes with a valid reason you gave a good impression of HA's vox pop blaming a party not in government.
Corbyn in the end was as conflicted as johnson about brexit and he had his chance to bring the party together after 2017, but as we all know he didn't.
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Sydney,
"Corbyn in the end was as conflicted as johnson about brexit and he had his chance to bring the party together after 2017, but as we all know he didn't".
I think that is confusing his personal opinion with the role of party leader.
The Labour right, led by Steer Karma in cabinet, lobbied for Ref2.
This was a big mistake, and allowed the Tories to exploit the weakness of Labour in response to the original referendum.
Corbyn could have sacked the plotters and gone down a different route, but chose to try to keep them onboard. That was a mistake as well, because they kept sniping.
They should have been shown the door after the failed chicken coup, and gone down the Change UK route with Chuka.
I reckon Labour will now fracture before the next GE. If they manage to hold Batley in the next By-election, that will act as a sticking plaster, but not resolve the divisions.
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One can only do stuff 'in power' and as Corbyn was in power then he should have done what he needed to do and if that meant sacking Starmer he should have done it, but he's a ditherer and didn't grasp the nettle on a list of things. That is now history and Starmer is trying to unite the party and is not afraid of removing those that want to live in the past. You may dislike this approach but it one that Corbyn should have taken.
For what it's worth I would have Corbyn's humanity and goals over most, those that use prejudice to gain power don't deserve a place at the table.
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Syd, are you daft, in the sixties I was paying the highest property rates outside the city of Westminster living in Norton near Askern, the only thing that has beaten inflation and property prices in that time has been the pensions of the council workers and the fees and expenses claimed by the councilors.
The main expenditure in Doncaster over the last twenty years has been the civic centre area which is mainly supported by local tax payers money and has achieved the shut down of that side of the town commercially.
Millions spent on bus lanes and park and ride that they could grow spuds on most days and use the space more productively, that actually made pollution worse with congestion.
They will finish the place off with congestion charges no doubt. I wonder how many of the
councilors would be willing to give up their expenses claims and did it for the prestige of the town as used to be the case and not for personal gain would 1) still be members of the Labour party to get on the council 2) would actually do the job for bare expenses and no monetary gain.
Every old pit village in the area is still dependant on the old Welfare sports facilities and are miles behind what other areas have whereas in the sixties because industries supplied them they were way in front, and the council have drastically cut their upkeep of those facilities and are mostly run by village volunteers now, originally the council took over the Welfare sports areas because they failed to provide the required facilities per thousands of population and have gradually withdrawn their services over time. If checks were done it may be that they are now not fulfilling their legal responsibilities.
Sandall Beat was football and cricket pitches sold to a stable company for a pound I seem to remember.
The best test is like the NHS, if you haven't got a relation there or know someone you haven't got a chance of getting a job there.
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Syd, are you daft, in the sixties I was paying the highest property rates outside the city of Westminster living in Norton near Askern, the only thing that has beaten inflation and property prices in that time has been the pensions of the council workers and the fees and expenses claimed by the councilors.
The main expenditure in Doncaster over the last twenty years has been the civic centre area which is mainly supported by local tax payers money and has achieved the shut down of that side of the town commercially.
Millions spent on bus lanes and park and ride that they could grow spuds on most days and use the space more productively, that actually made pollution worse with congestion.
They will finish the place off with congestion charges no doubt. I wonder how many of the
councilors would be willing to give up their expenses claims and did it for the prestige of the town as used to be the case and not for personal gain would 1) still be members of the Labour party to get on the council 2) would actually do the job for bare expenses and no monetary gain.
Every old pit village in the area is still dependant on the old Welfare sports facilities and are miles behind what other areas have whereas in the sixties because industries supplied them they were way in front, and the council have drastically cut their upkeep of those facilities and are mostly run by village volunteers now, originally the council took over the Welfare sports areas because they failed to provide the required facilities per thousands of population and have gradually withdrawn their services over time. If checks were done it may be that they are now not fulfilling their legal responsibilities.
Sandall Beat was football and cricket pitches sold to a stable company for a pound I seem to remember.
The best test is like the NHS, if you haven't got a relation there or know someone you haven't got a chance of getting a job there.
Have a look what Labourrun Stainforth Parish Council are doing with the Welfare grounds in Stainforth. You’re firing from the hip again!
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The Guardian view makes for interesting reading this morning.
They feel that to reconnect in places like Hartlepool, Labour must present their vision of a succesful Brexit.
This will probably disillusion half the party no doubt. The fact is though, this government is pushing it through. If half the Labour Party trooped off to the Lid Dems in protest, that would just leave the left more divided.
If Labour doesn't turn it's attention to this, then Brexit could well remain the dividing line in politics. If Labour wants to get back to talking about other issues, it's got to put Brexit to bed.
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The Guardian view make for interesting reading this morning.
They feel that to reconnect in places like Hartlepool, Labour must present their vision of a succesful Brexit.
This will probably disillusion half the party no doubt. The fact is though, this government is pushing it through. If half the Labour Party trooped off to the Lid Dems in protest, that would just leave the left more divided.
If Labour doesn't turn it's attention to this, then Brexit could well remain the dividing line in politics. If Labour wants to get back to talking about other issues, it's got to put Brexit to bed.
Presenting Brexit as being successful would clearly upset quite a few on here.
Most of whom are Labour people.
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I know Hound.
Perhaps they could come to terms with it, if they said the question of the EU may return sometime in the future. But we've got to try and succeed in the now.
If not, the danger is every future election turns into a referendum on the EU.
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RD, I suggested to one of our posters a few weeks ago that he should understand that Brexit is here and that he should accept it and get on with it.
I was “put in my place” for daring to suggest such a thing.
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and commenters on here have been saying for month you won brexit get over it, so get over it and enjoy.
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Well if they can't do it then to try and win an election, the Labour Party would have to join outright with the Lib Dems and SNP on a pro EU ticket. If the UK rejoins the EU then Scottish nationalism becomes much less potent.
They would have to hope they could attract enough pro-EU Tory votes to make up for the lost Labour votes.
It would be a major fissure on UK politics, with no guarantee the numbers are there to make it work.
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I give it around 10 years before business gives up and calls out to rejoin, maybe less
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and commenters on here have been saying for month you won brexit get over it, so get over it and enjoy.
I voted remain.
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Why hound?
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Why ?
Not really sure why it should matter to someone who it doesn’t impact on.
Why does Brexit matter to you.
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Why ?
Not really sure why it should matter to someone who it doesn’t impact on.
Why does Brexit matter to you.
how do you come to that conclusion?
bump
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I give it around 10 years before business gives up and calls out to rejoin, maybe less
It's a longtime to wait to be proven right and its a gamble Brexit will really fail badly. If the UK just meanders on, that's probably enough. A great many people won't grasp the concept of opportunity cost.
In the meantime a Tory government continues to push on in power.
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Absolutely RD.
Those grapes will be even more sour in years to come.
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I give it around 10 years before business gives up and calls out to rejoin, maybe less
It's a longtime to wait to be proven right and its a gamble Brexit will really fail badly. If the UK just meanders on, that's probably enough. A great many people won't grasp the concept of opportunity cost.
In the meantime a Tory government continues to push on in power.
I wouldn't be claiming victory 10 years hence RD that would be silly, I'm just thinking of the businesses doing it tough, as many have already said. ''Look for other markets'' they were told
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The EU will do well to exist in ten years time as you know it now Syd. If it does not ditch it's ambition of Federalism and revert into just a trade agreement it will fail, especially in the southern Mediterranean states will go tits up when the northern states stop their tab.
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It was you that said Leeds would bounce straight back down again selby and that was your specialist subject aye?
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Filo, look at where when I was a kid I played tennis, bowls. walked in gardens with flower beds and played in the children's park with slides, bobby's helmet, swings, and sand pit, they are building houses on it.
Go on the Askern Photo group page on facebook and take a look at the amenities the village had from the 1920's that no longer exist, and read the comments what residents in the village think about it.
As for Leeds Syd I am hoping for an implosion and second year syndrome like Sheffield United, at least I can be wrong about something, it seems you think you are never wrong, but In think some of us know better.
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You'd have lost your house if you put your money where you mouth is aye?
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The Guardian view make for interesting reading this morning.
They feel that to reconnect in places like Hartlepool, Labour must present their vision of a succesful Brexit.
This will probably disillusion half the party no doubt. The fact is though, this government is pushing it through. If half the Labour Party trooped off to the Lid Dems in protest, that would just leave the left more divided.
If Labour doesn't turn it's attention to this, then Brexit could well remain the dividing line in politics. If Labour wants to get back to talking about other issues, it's got to put Brexit to bed.
Presenting Brexit as being successful would clearly upset quite a few on here.
Most of whom are Labour people.
Brexit is been done and gone whatever the Guardian says.
What the Labour Party need to do is provide their view of a successful Britain after Brexit.
Because Johnson's is a fantasy and he and his party know it - although his acolytes on here are still looking for unicorns. Which is why there will be an early GE, before the effects of it lost trade & more insecure jobs, really begin to kick-in.
Although the current and near future political situations in both Scotland & Northern Ireland may have a very big bearing on that - and exactly how much of 'Britain' will be under the control on the UK government come the next GE.
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Filo, look at where when I was a kid I played tennis, bowls. walked in gardens with flower beds and played in the children's park with slides, bobby's helmet, swings, and sand pit, they are building houses on it.
Go on the Askern Photo group page on facebook and take a look at the amenities the village had from the 1920's that no longer exist, and read the comments what residents in the village think about it.
As for Leeds Syd I am hoping for an implosion and second year syndrome like Sheffield United, at least I can be wrong about something, it seems you think you are never wrong, but In think some of us know better.
But what do you expect with a Tory Government in power Selby? Tory governments don't support tax-payer funded public services - and they certainly don't give money to Labour councils who do.
And however old you are (unless you were born between 1997 & 1999), Tory governments have been in power for most of your life.
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The Guardian view make for interesting reading this morning.
They feel that to reconnect in places like Hartlepool, Labour must present their vision of a succesful Brexit.
This will probably disillusion half the party no doubt. The fact is though, this government is pushing it through. If half the Labour Party trooped off to the Lid Dems in protest, that would just leave the left more divided.
If Labour doesn't turn it's attention to this, then Brexit could well remain the dividing line in politics. If Labour wants to get back to talking about other issues, it's got to put Brexit to bed.
Presenting Brexit as being successful would clearly upset quite a few on here.
Most of whom are Labour people.
Brexit is been done and gone whatever the Guardian says.
What the Labour Party need to do is provide their view of a successful Britain after Brexit.
Because Johnson's is a fantasy and he and his party know it - although his acolytes on here are still looking for unicorns. Which is why there will be an early GE, before the effects of it lost trade & more insecure jobs, really begin to kick-in.
Although the current and near future political situations in both Scotland & Northern Ireland may have a very big bearing on that - and exactly how much of 'Britain' will be under the control on the UK government come the next GE.
Wilts, just to be clear matey, I fully agree that Brexit is done and dusted.
Whoever is in power now or in the future HAS to make the best of it.
I voted remain (Sydney, take note again) and was disappointed when the outcome was leave but I realise that as a country we have to crack on.
Benefits won’t come overnight and we won’t know for quite some time whether it will be good or bad for us and then it will be with the good old hindsight benefit.
Yes, Labour do need to present themselves properly with that in mind but Starmer might not be the man to do it despite him being lauded as the new messiah not so long ago.
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I took note hound I just can't find where you said why you voted remain, is all
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I know all that Wilts and in all that time there has been no recognisable difference, in fact I would hazard a guess which it is a guess nui I think more big employers in the Doncaster area shut down in the Blair years than any others.
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I took note hound I just can't find where you said why you voted remain, is all
None so blind as will not see.
Good grief, I have even told you where to find it.
For such a wise man you find simple things very difficult.
For the record, I have said it many times on the forum.
You should have spotted that when you go back through my posts.
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I know all that Wilts and in all that time there has been no recognisable difference, in fact I would hazard a guess which it is a guess nui I think more big employers in the Doncaster area shut down in the Blair years than any others.
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I took note hound I just can't find where you said why you voted remain, is all
None so blind as will not see.
Good grief, I have even told you where to find it.
For such a wise man you find simple things very difficult.
For the record, I have said it many times on the forum.
You should have spotted that when you go back through my posts.
I have some paint to watch, your random thoughts are not that important to me
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Filo, look at where when I was a kid I played tennis, bowls. walked in gardens with flower beds and played in the children's park with slides, bobby's helmet, swings, and sand pit, they are building houses on it.
Go on the Askern Photo group page on facebook and take a look at the amenities the village had from the 1920's that no longer exist, and read the comments what residents in the village think about it.
As for Leeds Syd I am hoping for an implosion and second year syndrome like Sheffield United, at least I can be wrong about something, it seems you think you are never wrong, but In think some of us know better.
Never said a word about Askern, you made the General comments regarding Welfare Grounds being neglected, I offered you an example of investment at a Welfare ground
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Filo, when the Doncaster Council took over the upkeep of the Welfare grounds in the Donacaster Area it was because they were failing to provide the Doncaster area population with the required area of playing fields needed under legislation.
All the equipment to do so such as mowers rollers etc. were handed over for the upkeep and the groundsmen transferred to council employment.
As they retired they were not replaced, the upkeep has been reduced at Askern to gang mowers cutting the outfield once a week with the football area, and the two clubs provide their own equipment and the cricket wicket upkeep is done by volunteers both financial wise and labour wise by club member volunteers.
As far as I know the Welfare cricket field no longer exists that Hatfield Main played on and will no doubt be used for other purposes and even built on as far as I know.
I think that all the areas sports clubs that were essentially colliery works teams are now private sports clubs that are constantly battling the Doncaster Council over matters that could very well lead to their demise which has certainly happened at Askern and but for a few club members could well have caused their demise years ago with some already disappeared.
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I've now seen three separate Labour figures jumping on the "woke metropolitan elite" bandwagon. I suspect this is coming from head office. So it looks like labour's response is to wade into the culture war - an entirely right wing fabrication - to try and beat the Tories on their home ground. If they go that route they'll get hammered worse than 2019.
Fun fact, London has the highest rate of homelessness and child poverty in the UK. So when people talk about this London woke elite, I have to wonder what they really mean. As my wife says, some people say woke with a hard r.
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The Guardian view make for interesting reading this morning.
They feel that to reconnect in places like Hartlepool, Labour must present their vision of a succesful Brexit.
This will probably disillusion half the party no doubt. The fact is though, this government is pushing it through. If half the Labour Party trooped off to the Lid Dems in protest, that would just leave the left more divided.
If Labour doesn't turn it's attention to this, then Brexit could well remain the dividing line in politics. If Labour wants to get back to talking about other issues, it's got to put Brexit to bed.
Presenting Brexit as being successful would clearly upset quite a few on here.
Most of whom are Labour people.
Brexit is been done and gone whatever the Guardian says.
What the Labour Party need to do is provide their view of a successful Britain after Brexit.
Because Johnson's is a fantasy and he and his party know it - although his acolytes on here are still looking for unicorns. Which is why there will be an early GE, before the effects of it lost trade & more insecure jobs, really begin to kick-in.
Although the current and near future political situations in both Scotland & Northern Ireland may have a very big bearing on that - and exactly how much of 'Britain' will be under the control on the UK government come the next GE.
I don't think you are disagreeing with the Guardian there Wilts.
The point is Labour is not really laying out a vision for a successful Brexit yet. This is probably because there is resistance to that within the party. Don't you think?
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Labour hasn't laid out a vision for anything yet.
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Filo, when the Doncaster Council took over the upkeep of the Welfare grounds in the Donacaster Area it was because they were failing to provide the Doncaster area population with the required area of playing fields needed under legislation.
All the equipment to do so such as mowers rollers etc. were handed over for the upkeep and the groundsmen transferred to council employment.
As they retired they were not replaced, the upkeep has been reduced at Askern to gang mowers cutting the outfield once a week with the football area, and the two clubs provide their own equipment and the cricket wicket upkeep is done by volunteers both financial wise and labour wise by club member volunteers.
As far as I know the Welfare cricket field no longer exists that Hatfield Main played on and will no doubt be used for other purposes and even built on as far as I know.
I think that all the areas sports clubs that were essentially colliery works teams are now private sports clubs that are constantly battling the Doncaster Council over matters that could very well lead to their demise which has certainly happened at Askern and but for a few club members could well have caused their demise years ago with some already disappeared.
Here's some more interesting stuff for you to ignore selby
''School Sport, and the work of the Sports Councils, was to take a heavy toll during the Margaret Thatcher era. The Prime Ministers 1981 Regulation 909 gave education authorities the right to sell school land that they considered surplus to their requirements. Over the next decade an estimated 5,000 playing fields were sold, many converted to housing developments, supermarkets or car parks''
https://sportshistoryculture.blog/tag/margaret-thatcher/
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I took note hound I just can't find where you said why you voted remain, is all
None so blind as will not see.
Good grief, I have even told you where to find it.
For such a wise man you find simple things very difficult.
For the record, I have said it many times on the forum.
You should have spotted that when you go back through my posts.
I have some paint to watch, your random thoughts are not that important to me
Very odd then that you keep asking me questions.
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How's your day Hound?
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How's your day Hound?
Wonderful DO.
We have been visited by my son and the grandsons.
Why do you ask?
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How's your day Hound?
Wonderful DO.
We have been visited by my son and the grandsons.
Why do you ask?
Good stuff. Just thought I'd ask the question x
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Nice to know people care.
Hope you and yours are all good.
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Angela raynor has been sacked
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Angela raynor has been sacked
..removed from party chair and election coord, but still deputy leader.
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Angela raynor has been sacked
I don't at all like her I find her far too aggressive for my liking. But politically this feels a crazy move in terms of uniting his party.
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Angela raynor has been sacked
I don't at all like her I find her far too aggressive for my liking. But politically this feels a crazy move in terms of uniting his party.
Yep agreed, she always came over as cocky and aggressive.
A bit of a know it all.
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https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1432735/EU-news-Guy-Verhofstadt-financial-transparency-vote-Conference-on-the-Future-of-Europe
Some might enjoy this.
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Bonkers decision to sack Rayner. If you're trying to appeal to a northern working class heartland why would you sack your most prominent northern working class MP? Clown behaviour, and yet another sign they don't have a clue.
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Bonkers decision to sack Rayner. If you're trying to appeal to a northern working class heartland why would you sack your most prominent northern working class MP? Clown behaviour, and yet another sign they don't have a clue.
Couldn't agree more .
Completely lost the plot .
Absolute shambles .
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Rumours Nandy is next. Scapegoating anyone remotely on the left of the party to protect Lord Mandelson and Baroness Chapman, the two advisers who are chiefly responsible for the election disaster.
Sacking northern working class MPs to save the arses of the lords in your top team doesn't scream that you care for the working class tbh.
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Yet when the tories were throwing members out of the party left right and centre, what do you do with someone that hasn't worked out in a critical position? think what some of our fans call for when we lose a couple of games in a row.
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Come on Sydney, rumour has it the shadow chancellor, foreign secretary, health secretary are all for the sack aswell as reducing the deputy leader of many roles.
The only person at the top he isn't sacking is himself...
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Are they anything like the rumours of who our new manger is pud?
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Come on Sydney, rumour has it the shadow chancellor, foreign secretary, health secretary are all for the sack aswell as reducing the deputy leader of many roles.
The only person at the top he isn't sacking is himself...
They could do with getting rid of that smarmy git Ashworth.
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Labour needs to shift perception back to being the party for the working person rather than which ever cause (blm, trans etc) students shout loudest about. As long as it has the image of student protest behind it (and Corbyn was the ultimate student revolutionary) then it is doomed. Why has no socialist Labour government been elected in my lifetime (born 1977) ? Those on the left need to be asking themselves that. Blair was pretty much centre / tory light
Because the people of the UK have shown that they don't want that, look no further than Corbyn's last result, directly electing a socialist government will not happen until the UK public can be educated on the benefits of running the country in a similar way to say Sweden. The workers of the UK have shown they don't care for the protections that the EU voted on and are happy to take a gamble on them being kept, although the government has repeatedly said the protections will stay with one minister saying they will even be improved but without providing any detail. Moving the country to the left can only happen over time from a position of power where the government of the day can explain why for instance a fully funded and owned NHS will benefit everyone. Especially in times of a pandemic or similar.
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Are they anything like the rumours of who our new manger is pud?
Only the tribalism stops you from seeing the catastrophe that's going on Sydney .
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They could do with getting rid of that smarmy git Ashworth.
Totally agree with you there - always reminds me of a modern day Roy Hattersley.....
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Are they anything like the rumours of who our new manger is pud?
Only the tribalism stops you from seeing the catastrophe that's going on Sydney .
Oh I see it alright and it hurts just as much but I look from a pragmatic pov, but then I have never voted to support a conservative government in my lifetime.
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Labour needs to shift perception back to being the party for the working person rather than which ever cause (blm, trans etc) students shout loudest about. As long as it has the image of student protest behind it (and Corbyn was the ultimate student revolutionary) then it is doomed. Why has no socialist Labour government been elected in my lifetime (born 1977) ? Those on the left need to be asking themselves that. Blair was pretty much centre / tory light
Because the people of the UK have shown that they don't want that, look no further than Corbyn's last result, directly electing a socialist government will not happen until the UK public can be educated on the benefits of running the country in a similar way to say Sweden. The workers of the UK have shown they don't care for the protections that the EU voted on and are happy to take a gamble on them being kept, although the government has repeatedly said the protections will stay with one minister saying they will even be improved but without providing any detail. Moving the country to the left can only happen over time from a position of power where the government of the day can explain why for instance a fully funded and owned NHS will benefit everyone. Especially in times of a pandemic or similar.
The Uk public
The workers of the UK
Not “we” anymore.
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I'm sure Ashworth uses filters to make him look better in video calls. He was on GMTV the other morning and his eyes were like Bambie's.
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I'm sure Ashworth uses filters to make him look better in video calls. He was on GMTV the other morning and his eyes were like Bambie's.
He should lock his microphone down too.....to make him seem more intelligent.
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Are they anything like the rumours of who our new manger is pud?
Only the tribalism stops you from seeing the catastrophe that's going on Sydney .
Oh I see it alright and it hurts just as much but I look from a pragmatic pov, but then I have never voted to support a conservative government in my lifetime.
Neither have I .
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Labour needs to shift perception back to being the party for the working person rather than which ever cause (blm, trans etc) students shout loudest about. As long as it has the image of student protest behind it (and Corbyn was the ultimate student revolutionary) then it is doomed. Why has no socialist Labour government been elected in my lifetime (born 1977) ? Those on the left need to be asking themselves that. Blair was pretty much centre / tory light
Because the people of the UK have shown that they don't want that, look no further than Corbyn's last result, directly electing a socialist government will not happen until the UK public can be educated on the benefits of running the country in a similar way to say Sweden. The workers of the UK have shown they don't care for the protections that the EU voted on and are happy to take a gamble on them being kept, although the government has repeatedly said the protections will stay with one minister saying they will even be improved but without providing any detail. Moving the country to the left can only happen over time from a position of power where the government of the day can explain why for instance a fully funded and owned NHS will benefit everyone. Especially in times of a pandemic or similar.
The Uk public
The workers of the UK
Not “we” anymore.
Ever been a member of a union hound?
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Just had a close friend of the family voted into council for the first time for him (lab) unfortunately he's well educated and his parents are not short of a bob.
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With Rayner getting the sack I am beginning to fear for Starmer's mental health
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Was Rayner responsible for letting Mandelson go to Hartlepool and appear on TV?.....if so, a rebuke, but not a sacking. I thought he should that he would take full responsibilty!
By all means shuffle the cabinet if that is part of a review after the local elections, but you don't do it like this.
His behaviour is moving from the inept into the disturbed territory.
Does he drink, and maybe been at the whisky too hard by way of consolation?
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He'll be ok with the full support of the party Albie
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Sydney,
He does not have the support of any element in Labour with this, except his own inner circle.
This is well understood inside Labour, and will ignite an almighty row for no purpose.
Trust me, the blades are being edged as we speak.
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It's a democratic party Albie I would expect no less, If I'm allowed to use another football analogy if we listen to everything the rank and file said we would only have Copps left at this moment and without management and a board.
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Thing is Sydney, it is not really a democratic party, but it should be.
Look at the imposition of candidates on local parties....it went down like a pint of cold sick in Hartlepool.
Given the appalling performance in the local elections, I would expect a proper review once the dust has settled. Firing people without explaining how they had underperformed is very poor, it looks like scapegoating, even if it isn't.
Rayner is Deputy Leader, elected by the members.
She stays in that role, because Starmer has no power to remove her. This is not going to help with a good working relationship, is it?
Whatever next, demote Annaliese Dodds and promote some brownose like Jess Phillips?
Nobody wants to see people promoted just because they pander....what price competence?
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Thing is Sydney, it is not really a democratic party, but it should be.
Look at the imposition of candidates on local parties....it went down like a pint of cold sick in Hartlepool.
Given the appalling performance in the local elections, I would expect a proper review once the dust has settled. Firing people without explaining how they had underperformed is very poor, it looks like scapegoating, even if it isn't.
Rayner is Deputy Leader, elected by the members.
She stays in that role, because Starmer has no power to remove her. This is not going to help with a good working relationship, is it?
Whatever next, demote Annaliese Dodds and promote some brownose like Jess Phillips?
Nobody wants to see people promoted just because they pander....what price competence?
The party is what it is and can only be changed by members and that's how it should be but if it is perceived there is something wrong then it should have been change before a crises point. These issues if that's how they are seen by the majority should have been addressed following the 2017 election, not a win but it should have given Corbyn the confidence to act. As with the voting system this should have been change by Blair.
The labor party here is constantly attempting hits on the government about x,y,z but did nothing on many issues when they were in power, they spent the whole time fighting each other, even while they were in power, go figure they dumped the leader Rudd and PM for Gillard then later dumped Gillard for Rudd again and guess what they lost the next GE. They have only been in power something like 4 of the last 24 years or so.
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He'll be ok with the full support of the party Albie
Starmer isn’t ever going to get the full support of the Party.
He hasn’t even got the full support of Labour posters on here.
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Sort of like Corbyn then, apparently?
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Labour needs to shift perception back to being the party for the working person rather than which ever cause (blm, trans etc) students shout loudest about. As long as it has the image of student protest behind it (and Corbyn was the ultimate student revolutionary) then it is doomed. Why has no socialist Labour government been elected in my lifetime (born 1977) ? Those on the left need to be asking themselves that. Blair was pretty much centre / tory light
Because the people of the UK have shown that they don't want that, look no further than Corbyn's last result, directly electing a socialist government will not happen until the UK public can be educated on the benefits of running the country in a similar way to say Sweden. The workers of the UK have shown they don't care for the protections that the EU voted on and are happy to take a gamble on them being kept, although the government has repeatedly said the protections will stay with one minister saying they will even be improved but without providing any detail. Moving the country to the left can only happen over time from a position of power where the government of the day can explain why for instance a fully funded and owned NHS will benefit everyone. Especially in times of a pandemic or similar.
Tbf neither Labour or Sweden are socialist. Socialism is owning the means of production and distribution like Cuba, neither want or do that, they're both capitalist, free market ideals with a large number of social ideas. They are Social Democracies.
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Agreed DO, pure socialism would never work but Sweden is doing OK albeit with a much smaller population, very high in provision of welfare in the form of from University education, long paternity leave for parents and very low levels violence in the community, and of course higher taxes.
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Thing is Sydney, it is not really a democratic party, but it should be.
Look at the imposition of candidates on local parties....it went down like a pint of cold sick in Hartlepool.
Given the appalling performance in the local elections, I would expect a proper review once the dust has settled. Firing people without explaining how they had underperformed is very poor, it looks like scapegoating, even if it isn't.
Rayner is Deputy Leader, elected by the members.
She stays in that role, because Starmer has no power to remove her. This is not going to help with a good working relationship, is it?
Whatever next, demote Annaliese Dodds and promote some brownose like Jess Phillips?
Nobody wants to see people promoted just because they pander....what price competence?
Things change very quickly since we discussed this and you were correct it wasn't popular with many, if any.
Hopefully the horses have been quelled and the ''lessons'' learned.
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Agreed DO, pure socialism would never work but Sweden is doing OK albeit with a much smaller population, very high in provision of welfare in the form of from University education, long paternity leave for parents and very low levels violence in the community, and of course higher taxes.
I’ve got a few pals in Sweden, and have spent a fair amount of time there myself. This socialist political philosophy is not terribly popular at all (with them and their circle at least). They are hugely taxed and though public services are good, there’s a feeling that they should be much better given the level of tax that they pay. As for violence in the community, this may have been accurate 20 years ago, however areas of the larger cities have been seriously affected by large increases in gang violence over recent years. Many people put this down to increased levels of immigration over recent years which in turn lends support to the right wing.
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I imagine we'll be going back again as soon as it's covid safe to travel, there's always grumbles everywhere about high taxes HA from some but if you want a better society ...........
There is bikie gang rivalry and associated violence but some of our family whom live in Stockholm are not overly concerned about and we have discussed.
https://www.thelocal.se/20200124/explained-violence-among-swedens-motorcycle-biker-gangs-is-not-a-new-problem/