Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: EasyforDennis on July 12, 2021, 08:14:56 am
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Controversial but Is he as good a manager as the media would have us believe?
Personally I think he is too negative and sets his team's up not to lose rather than to win.
The only saves the Italian keeper had to make were the penalties.
Discuss.
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A semi final place in a world cup, nations league final and European final. I think that says it all. I'd also say other managers have had better players and not done as well as he has. Most of us have a pride watching the team aswell. He is a good international manager.
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I rate the job he’s done, but I think he lost the plot extra time onwards yesterday.
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For a manager with such clear and detailed plans before the game, he’s very slow to react to what’s unfolding in front of him. He’s also inherently cautious so it’s never going to be thrilling to watch. But you can’t argue with his record - he’s managed at 2 tournaments with a semi final and final achieved, as well as the Nations League final. He’s got the players playing as a team rather than a collection of individuals. He’s earned the chance to learn from the mistakes of this tournament and make us stronger still.
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Compare the England team before he was manager to now. So much better now and it’s not really about the quality of players we normally have a decent team. In past years it’s been a shambles
What I’d say is he needs to learn to be proactive. Great tactics to start which got us to half time 1-0 (disappointed we didn’t push harder for a 2nd in that half). But towards the end of the 1st half and after 5min of the second you could see they were just walking up to the edge of our box at will. Southgate waited for them to equalise rather than act to change the game. Very poor from a manager at this level.
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This is not unique to England, but we have reached a total of five semi finals and two finals in major tournaments in our history. Three of these have been home tournaments (1966, 1996, 2021) and two in Europe (1990 and 2018). Winning a trophy outside of our home nation or home continent will be very tough.
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I think he acted too late in last night's game, but most other managers would not have even got us to that game.
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Cannot complain about the job Southgate has done. Why Mount was kept on for so long last night is a mystery. Pulling Sterling on to the left and someone new on to right, whether Saka or Sancho, could have been done 15 mins earlier. 70 mins was too late.
Generally though a job well done.
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I think he acted too late in last night's game, but most other managers would not have even got us to that game.
He didn’t react, we were under the cosh for long periods in the second half, we needed to be 10 yards further up the pitch and we needed an outlet we did none of the two and it was only matter of time before they scored, crap game management from the manager
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For me it was crying out for Grealish to come on for Mount after the 1st 20mins
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It's a collective responsibility and the players knew we backed off for too long, so we have to learn to stop being over cautious and continue to take risks.
Italy and other top teams, will do anything to stop momentum. Fouls, long false injury breaks etc. to make sure they clear their heads and all sing from the same hymn sheet to get the initiative back.
Is it better to stick with Southgate who has progressed us as a team and can continue learning? Or throw it all away and start again?
We've broken through some of the baggage we've carried for 55 years and just now need to take that final step that will turn us into winners.
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That group of players could have managed a win without the managers reins restricting their natural abilities….
He holds his hands up and says he’s to blame?…whoopee-dooooo!
Let’s just lose every competitive game at every sport and the orchestrator of that defeat can just say “ I hold my hands up, I’m to blame”
This guy should be publicly hoss-whipped along with all those who say “ well! Wr did get to a final”
It’s a good job Churchill didn’t cave in and come second
Drama over, bring on the Rovers rebuild…
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Final thought. The officials were excellent. They didn’t fall for Italian antics or even some of the English diving. Question mark over his call on the assault on Grealish from Jorginho. Otherwise they let game flow and added to game rather than subtracted. Well done millionaire Dutch bloke and his two mates.
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Needed VAR to give him a heads up on the Jorginho challenge. Had to be a red not that it would have changed the outcome
Worry is we’ve lost in the same way we did to Croatia Gareth hasn’t learnt from that so he needs to learn from this!
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Not controversial at all. He’s done some good things off the pitch, pretty ordinary when it comes to match day though. I really dislike how he manages the team on match day.
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Bloody hell, what would you be saying if we'd lost to Iceland?
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Would tend to agree. For all the Italians history, mentality, form etc., they only beat us with the last kick of the penalty shoot out.
The last step is the hardest but taking everything into account, keep going, keep learning.
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Generally he's done a great job, helping redefine what the England team is in the publics mind. After the managerial merrigoround that went before he's offered some stability. In terms of what we expect from the England team, no one can say he hasn't done well.
Can he learn from this and take it a step further?
I'm not sure but if he wants another shot at it, I think he's earned the right to have another go.
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Gareth Southgate has literally done better than every other England manager since Alf Ramsey!
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Gareth Southgate has literally done better than every other England manager since Alf Ramsey!
And won as many Trophy’s
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Needed VAR to give him a heads up on the Jorginho challenge. Had to be a red not that it would have changed the outcome
Worry is we’ve lost in the same way we did to Croatia Gareth hasn’t learnt from that so he needs to learn from this!
We lost on pens though,
I would say the Denmark game was mrs like the Croatia game and we came out on top.
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Gareth Southgate has literally done better than every other England manager since Alf Ramsey!
And won as many Trophy’s
But got closer than all the other Managers
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Controversial but Is he as good a manager as the media would have us believe?
Personally I think he is too negative and sets his team's up not to lose rather than to win.
The only saves the Italian keeper had to make were the penalties.
Discuss.
Well he is the 1st manager who has got us to a final since Sir Alf Ramsey.
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I like how he hasn't fallen in to the trap of previous managers of "these are my best 11 players, I must get them on the pitch somehow" although then that leads to continuos clamour for a team containing Kane, Sterling, Foden , Sancho and Grealish.
I think overall there's an element of moving the ball too slowly but part of me thinks thats still a personnel issue among our team. We don't have (and have rarely had) a midfielder that keeps it ticking over like a Pirlo or Iniesta or Modric. I know those are once in a generation players usually but I still think it's one bit of our puzzle that's missing.
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I like how he hasn't fallen in to the trap of previous managers of "these are my best 11 players, I must get them on the pitch somehow" although then that leads to continuos clamour for a team containing Kane, Sterling, Foden , Sancho and Grealish.
I think overall there's an element of moving the ball too slowly but part of me thinks thats still a personnel issue among our team. We don't have (and have rarely had) a midfielder that keeps it ticking over like a Pirlo or Iniesta or Modric. I know those are once in a generation players usually but I still think it's one bit of our puzzle that's missing.
This team with Steven Gerrard in his prime (playing in his proper position) would be some team.
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I like how he hasn't fallen in to the trap of previous managers of "these are my best 11 players, I must get them on the pitch somehow" although then that leads to continuos clamour for a team containing Kane, Sterling, Foden , Sancho and Grealish.
I think overall there's an element of moving the ball too slowly but part of me thinks thats still a personnel issue among our team. We don't have (and have rarely had) a midfielder that keeps it ticking over like a Pirlo or Iniesta or Modric. I know those are once in a generation players usually but I still think it's one bit of our puzzle that's missing.
This team with Steven Gerrard in his prime (playing in his proper position) would be some team.
We need better than Rice and Phillips in there, although Rice had a decent game last night
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Southgate has done a great job for the England team overall. Last night was crying out for a change though, the Italians were there for the taking in the first half hour but we ended up with no outlet inviting pressure.
Great run in the tournament, great national pride but last night the best team won simple as.
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Southgate has done a brilliant job. He got a few things wrong last night, but ultimately we were probably the width of a post away from winning that penalty shoot-out. It was that tight.
7 games in this tournament, we won 5 and drew the other two. We never lost, just didn't bring the trophy home.
Best England team and manager of my lifetime, no question.
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Southgate is still a relatively inexperienced manager. He said himself after the semi, 200 games or something.
England needed wholesale change from top to bottom and that’s been what has happened over the past decade.
Yes, he is overly cautious. We should have gone for a second goal and played higher up the pitch but we are light years ahead in other areas of the Englande of olde.
I feel there’s much more to come.
Love it.
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He's clearly doing something right, but with the attacking players England have got, we should really be better at killing teams off and causing them more problems than we do.
He seems content to score early and then sit off and defend for the rest of the game, which I don't think suits us and is harder to get away with against the better teams. The way England have flown out of the blocks in most of the games this Euros should've set the tone, but we've petered out in pretty much every game after starting well and (usually) scoring early-ish.
I know it's difficult to sustain that against a team as good as Italy, but you have to at least offer something on the counter to stop the cycle of sitting deeper and deeper and just defending the 18 yard box.
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I like how he hasn't fallen in to the trap of previous managers of "these are my best 11 players, I must get them on the pitch somehow" although then that leads to continuos clamour for a team containing Kane, Sterling, Foden , Sancho and Grealish.
I think overall there's an element of moving the ball too slowly but part of me thinks thats still a personnel issue among our team. We don't have (and have rarely had) a midfielder that keeps it ticking over like a Pirlo or Iniesta or Modric. I know those are once in a generation players usually but I still think it's one bit of our puzzle that's missing.
This team with Steven Gerrard in his prime (playing in his proper position) would be some team.
We need better than Rice and Phillips in there, although Rice had a decent game last night
Can’t agree with that
Those two have been magnificent, especially Phillips.
Without them we wouldn’t have been nowhere near as solid and wouldn’t have reached the final
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England won’t make the final in Qatar next year. Or Euro 2024 in Germany. Or in the World Cup in the America’s in 2026.
This year will be seen as the pinnacle of Southgate’s England stewardship.
Last night was as good as it gets.
The planets have aligned for England over recent weeks.
They won’t do that again for a long time.
Just my opinion and feeling based on the last 50 years.
Hope to be proved wrong of course. But let’s get real with this.
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The last World Cup we only just missed out in the final.
It’s a bit silly to say we won’t reach a final again,
The players we have are as good as anyone else in the world, this tournament has proven that
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This group is very young and immature. Putting aside point about our being able to reach final outside of England, this group will not peak for another 1-2 tournaments. Lots of other teams at back end of cycle eg Germany and Croatia. I’d say best is yet to come. Qatar is going to be tough to handle though.
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It's a matter of trust by the manager, since Shackleton in the early fifty's each generation has had a player with magic moments who a manager is reluctant to trust, Worthington, Bowles, Hoddle, LeTissier, even Gazza and now Grealish joins the list, what gets in their heads I cannot understand, if Best, Maradonna, and Messi had been English we would have found a reason not to play them on a regular basis.
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The last World Cup we only just missed out in the final.
It’s a bit silly to say we won’t reach a final again,
The players we have are as good as anyone else in the world, this tournament has proven that
Er, if I recall England did not make the final. And on that note let’s talk about England’s progress in that competition.
Group stage. Win against a poor Tunisia followed by a similar game against Panama. Two easy games on paper. Then lose against Belgium in a game the press billed as a “good one to lose” as it set up an easier next game. (Sound familiar?)
Win against Columbia ((pens) then against Sweden before losing to Croatia in the semi. Couldn’t even beat Belgium to get third place.
In many ways, this has been a carbon copy tournament with the exception of getting to the final.
The current squad have been great. No doubt.
But it’s not enough.
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This group is very young and immature. Putting aside point about our being able to reach final outside of England, this group will not peak for another 1-2 tournaments. Lots of other teams at back end of cycle eg Germany and Croatia. I’d say best is yet to come. Qatar is going to be tough to handle though.
The only fly in the ointment about the team still maturing IMO is Kane. Top striker coming into his peak years. If we say the younger players coming through will be bettwe in 4-6 years, will we have a striker up top as good as Kane is now?
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This group is very young and immature. Putting aside point about our being able to reach final outside of England, this group will not peak for another 1-2 tournaments. Lots of other teams at back end of cycle eg Germany and Croatia. I’d say best is yet to come. Qatar is going to be tough to handle though.
Italy’s cycle was a quick turn around, failed to qualify for the last World Cup to European Champions
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The last World Cup we only just missed out in the final.
It’s a bit silly to say we won’t reach a final again,
The players we have are as good as anyone else in the world, this tournament has proven that
Er, if I recall England did not make the final. And on that note let’s talk about England’s progress in that competition.
Group stage. Win against a poor Tunisia followed by a similar game against Panama. Two easy games on paper. Then lose against Belgium in a game the press billed as a “good one to lose” as it set up an easier next game. (Sound familiar?)
Win against Columbia ((pens) then against Sweden before losing to Croatia in the semi. Couldn’t even beat Belgium to get third place.
In many ways, this has been a carbon copy tournament with the exception of getting to the final.
The current squad have been great. No doubt.
But it’s not enough.
Drives me mad when people keep going on about our “easy” routes in tournaments
No other supporters in the world would look at it in such a negative way.
Have a look at the teams Portugal played in the last euro to win it,
If donny got to the fa cup final would you care who they played.
The fact is in this tournament we’ve beaten
Croatia, the World Cup finalists who went on to draw with Spain
Czech Republic who Knocked out Holland
Germany
Denmark who were as good as anyone after rhe first two games and had the massive motivation,
And then we’ve lost on penalties in the final to a side who everyone has been raving about
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The last World Cup we only just missed out in the final.
It’s a bit silly to say we won’t reach a final again,
The players we have are as good as anyone else in the world, this tournament has proven that
Er, if I recall England did not make the final. And on that note let’s talk about England’s progress in that competition.
Group stage. Win against a poor Tunisia followed by a similar game against Panama. Two easy games on paper. Then lose against Belgium in a game the press billed as a “good one to lose” as it set up an easier next game. (Sound familiar?)
Win against Columbia ((pens) then against Sweden before losing to Croatia in the semi. Couldn’t even beat Belgium to get third place.
In many ways, this has been a carbon copy tournament with the exception of getting to the final.
The current squad have been great. No doubt.
But it’s not enough.
Drives me mad when people keep going on about our “easy” routes in tournaments
No other supporters in the world would look at it in such a negative way.
Have a look at the teams Portugal played in the last euro to win it,
If donny got to the fa cup final would you care who they played.
The fact is in this tournament we’ve beaten
Croatia, the World Cup finalists who went on to draw with Spain
Czech Republic who Knocked out Holland
Germany
Denmark who were as good as anyone after rhe first two games and had the massive motivation,
And then we’ve lost on penalties in the final to a side who everyone has been raving about
The game was lost last night the moment Italy equalised. The penalties were just the formal bit.
All the pundits, who have lived football all their life, Shearer, Ferdinand, Lampard stated England would never get a better chance to win the Euro than this time, because of the ways the games fell. Whilst no game is “easy” there are teams you want to avoid and teams you would rather play.
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And we have a certain World Cup qualifier to look forward to in Sep. When England travel to Euro surprise package Hungary.
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Don’t talk daft,
After they equalised they stayed on top for another 10-15 mins but after that it was very even and in extra time we looked like the side who wanted to score, Italy looked happy for pens.
All the pundits said all that after Russia yet 3 years later we’ve done it again.
Of course there’s teams you’d rather play but it’s ridiculous to say that’s the only reason we got to the final in an attempt to diminish the achievement.
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I never said that’s the only reason England reached the final. I’ve applauded the team . They have done very well. Circumstances have been in their favour, to an extent, that is all I suggest. This does not happen very often. They have fallen at the last and second to last hurdle at the last two big outings.
I don’t see things changing next year.
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England won’t make the final in Qatar next year. Or Euro 2024 in Germany. Or in the World Cup in the America’s in 2026.
This year will be seen as the pinnacle of Southgate’s England stewardship.
Last night was as good as it gets.
The planets have aligned for England over recent weeks.
They won’t do that again for a long time.
Just my opinion and feeling based on the last 50 years.
Hope to be proved wrong of course. But let’s get real with this.
Let’s not bother turning up then. Sorry completely disagree with you. This is just the beginning of a special era for our National team.
We have a group of very talented young players who won’t be at their peak for another 3/4/5/6 years.
The next 2 World Cups and Euros could just possibly give us a serious opportunity to achieve what we all are hoping for.
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Controversial but Is he as good a manager as the media would have us believe?
Personally I think he is too negative and sets his team's up not to lose rather than to win.
The only saves the Italian keeper had to make were the penalties.
Discuss.
If England had won , Southgate would have been lorded as given a master class of modern football . They lost IMO because he kept a settled side too long , and some players looked tired and leggy after the previous games where they’d given their all . On paper England should have won comfortably .
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England won’t make the final in Qatar next year. Or Euro 2024 in Germany. Or in the World Cup in the America’s in 2026.
This year will be seen as the pinnacle of Southgate’s England stewardship.
Last night was as good as it gets.
The planets have aligned for England over recent weeks.
They won’t do that again for a long time.
Just my opinion and feeling based on the last 50 years.
Hope to be proved wrong of course. But let’s get real with this.
Let’s not bother turning up then. Sorry completely disagree with you. This is just the beginning of a special era for our National team.
We have a group of very talented young players who won’t be at their peak for another 3/4/5/6 years.
The next 2 World Cups and Euros could just possibly give us a serious opportunity to achieve what we all are hoping for.
Please don’t mistake my disdain and realism for apathy.
And please don’t apologise for having an opinion.
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England won’t make the final in Qatar next year. Or Euro 2024 in Germany. Or in the World Cup in the America’s in 2026.
This year will be seen as the pinnacle of Southgate’s England stewardship.
Last night was as good as it gets.
The planets have aligned for England over recent weeks.
They won’t do that again for a long time.
Just my opinion and feeling based on the last 50 years.
Hope to be proved wrong of course. But let’s get real with this.
Let’s not bother turning up then. Sorry completely disagree with you. This is just the beginning of a special era for our National team.
We have a group of very talented young players who won’t be at their peak for another 3/4/5/6 years.
The next 2 World Cups and Euros could just possibly give us a serious opportunity to achieve what we all are hoping for.
It really doesn’t matter how talented they are....if the manager doesn’t play you....you are just a spectator...... if we had won last night during the 90 mins. I Would be saying watch out World Cup, here we come!
However .....what I saw was a team that looked like a Mastiff on a short chain....big hill to climb methinks.... ill bet anyone on here or anywhere that we won’t reach the next major final.....£100 to McMillan trust if we do.......any takers ?
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I’m very pleased that McMillan will benefit from your money. A very worthy cause indeed.
And they will.
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I’m very pleased that McMillan will benefit from your money. A very worthy cause indeed.
And they will.
So you think they will make the final.......?
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I’m very pleased that McMillan will benefit from your money. A very worthy cause indeed.
And they will.
I misread your post. Apologies. No I most certainly don’t think they will. I hope they do of course. But it’s the hope that kills you.
So you think they will make the final.......?
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Sorry but it is fact we’ll never have a better chance. Cups are lotteries unlike leagues, so on the law of averages we won’t get there for a long time. Although Italy were probably the team of the tournament they are very average. The Italian left back last night hardly features for Chelsea, the Chelsea first choice left back can’t get on the pitch for us. Their midfield was decent but we never had a proper go at their ancient defenders, no outstanding striker for them either, no standout player like del Piero, Baggio etc, probably on a par with a mid table Prem team and we were petrified of them most of the game. We have a 4 good defenders all in their prime, why did we have to wrap them up in cotton wool?
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I think Gareth had it all envisaged. He was expecting to go to penalties and he’d decided how they would and who would take them well before this final was played.
I contrast his behaviour, at least what was apparent on tv, with that of Mancini. Gareth was so unruffled but Mancini was furiously frustrated. I imagine Gareth might have told his team to keep doing what you’re doing at half-time whereas Mancini will have ripped into his! Leave out the knee bending and charity work publicity Gareth for the time being. You can all have and do that after. Kick their arses and drive them on you’re being far too nice and kind to them. Oh, and have a plan B, you already have all the very best backup in the world and you’re all playing for England!
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Overall, he has done a good job and has moved the national side on in leaps and bounds in the last six years or so. I do feel that he has peaked though and as soon as I saw the starting line up yesterday I knew we were in for a difficult game. He sets his team up not to lose. It has worked in this tournament but will only take you so far. It is a good young side with plenty of potential. The missing piece of the jig saw is that attacking threat, which was missing particularly in the second half. He bought his subs on too late and hung the three young lads out to dry with the pens. He will probably be in charge for the World Cup which would take us to the semi’s at best.
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Sorry but it is fact we’ll never have a better chance. Cups are lotteries unlike leagues, so on the law of averages we won’t get there for a long time. Although Italy were probably the team of the tournament they are very average. The Italian left back last night hardly features for Chelsea, the Chelsea first choice left back can’t get on the pitch for us. Their midfield was decent but we never had a proper go at their ancient defenders, no outstanding striker for them either, no standout player like del Piero, Baggio etc, probably on a par with a mid table Prem team and we were petrified of them most of the game. We have a 4 good defenders all in their prime, why did we have to wrap them up in cotton wool?
Well it’s not a fact is it!
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Winder if Gareth would have taken centre stage in the celebrations like Mancini did
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A good point made on twitter by Rob Staton
“ If Raheem Sterling wasn’t taking a penalty, why did Marcus Rashford come on for Kyle Walker and play the last three minutes at right back??”
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Don’t talk daft,
After they equalised they stayed on top for another 10-15 mins but after that it was very even and in extra time we looked like the side who wanted to score, Italy looked happy for pens.
All the pundits said all that after Russia yet 3 years later we’ve done it again.
Of course there’s teams you’d rather play but it’s ridiculous to say that’s the only reason we got to the final in an attempt to diminish the achievement.
If someone before the game had offered me 1-1 - into penalties and Pickford was going to save 2 of them - i would have taken it. Fantastic chance to win.
Making two subs defending a corner was a bold move that nearly backfired massively.
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Don’t talk daft,
After they equalised they stayed on top for another 10-15 mins but after that it was very even and in extra time we looked like the side who wanted to score, Italy looked happy for pens.
All the pundits said all that after Russia yet 3 years later we’ve done it again.
Of course there’s teams you’d rather play but it’s ridiculous to say that’s the only reason we got to the final in an attempt to diminish the achievement.
If someone before the game had offered me 1-1 - into penalties and Pickford was going to save 2 of them - i would have taken it. Fantastic chance to win.
Making two subs defending a corner was a bold move that nearly backfired massively.
It wasn’t bold, it was stupid, Southgate was panicking that he wouldn’t get his penalty takers on in time, as throughout the game he left it late to do something, his mindset needs to change to make us a more offensive unit
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A good point made on twitter by Rob Staton
“ If Raheem Sterling wasn’t taking a penalty, why did Marcus Rashford come on for Kyle Walker and play the last three minutes at right back??”
Not a good point really is it,
If the penalties go to sudden death then you’d much rather have Sterling taking one than Walker
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Don’t talk daft,
After they equalised they stayed on top for another 10-15 mins but after that it was very even and in extra time we looked like the side who wanted to score, Italy looked happy for pens.
All the pundits said all that after Russia yet 3 years later we’ve done it again.
Of course there’s teams you’d rather play but it’s ridiculous to say that’s the only reason we got to the final in an attempt to diminish the achievement.
If someone before the game had offered me 1-1 - into penalties and Pickford was going to save 2 of them - i would have taken it. Fantastic chance to win.
Making two subs defending a corner was a bold move that nearly backfired massively.
It wasn’t bold, it was stupid, Southgate was panicking that he wouldn’t get his penalty takers on in time, as throughout the game he left it late to do something, his mindset needs to change to make us a more offensive unit
We’ve had an offensive mindset for years and failed miserably while more solid teams have succeeded.
He’s got us to the final by being the most solid side in the tournament
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A good point made on twitter by Rob Staton
“ If Raheem Sterling wasn’t taking a penalty, why did Marcus Rashford come on for Kyle Walker and play the last three minutes at right back??”
Not a good point really is it,
If the penalties go to sudden death then you’d much rather have Sterling taking one than Walker
Not much between them to be honest, Sterling has scored 2 out of 5 pens in his career and Walker has never taken one
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Exactly
There’s probably a reason he’s never taken one
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The problem Southgate has now, is that usually when the team exit a competition, there's a bit of football still going on to distract people!
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Sorry but it is fact we’ll never have a better chance. Cups are lotteries unlike leagues, so on the law of averages we won’t get there for a long time. Although Italy were probably the team of the tournament they are very average. The Italian left back last night hardly features for Chelsea, the Chelsea first choice left back can’t get on the pitch for us. Their midfield was decent but we never had a proper go at their ancient defenders, no outstanding striker for them either, no standout player like del Piero, Baggio etc, probably on a par with a mid table Prem team and we were petrified of them most of the game. We have a 4 good defenders all in their prime, why did we have to wrap them up in cotton wool?
Well it’s not a fact is it!
You’re right it’s not a fact but I’m sure we won’t ever have a better chance, playing a mediocre Italy side at home in a final, everything was in our favour.
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They haven’t lost in 35 games or something
Almost a world record
But because we got knocked out by them they’re being described as average.
If they’d beat Spain in the final instead of us everyone would be saying how good they are
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So do you think they’ve got superior players to us? Man for man I do think they’re mediocre, played well but not full of world class players like France.
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Sorry but it is fact we’ll never have a better chance. Cups are lotteries unlike leagues, so on the law of averages we won’t get there for a long time. Although Italy were probably the team of the tournament they are very average. The Italian left back last night hardly features for Chelsea, the Chelsea first choice left back can’t get on the pitch for us. Their midfield was decent but we never had a proper go at their ancient defenders, no outstanding striker for them either, no standout player like del Piero, Baggio etc, probably on a par with a mid table Prem team and we were petrified of them most of the game. We have a 4 good defenders all in their prime, why did we have to wrap them up in cotton wool?
Well it’s not a fact is it!
You’re right it’s not a fact but I’m sure we won’t ever have a better chance, playing a mediocre Italy side at home in a final, everything was in our favour.
That, was never a mediocre Italian side, Mancini has developed a fluid and strong side taking a lot of the previous reliance on a strong defence and winning a match 1-0 to the extremes. The quality they had right across the team made all the difference.
The fact he pulled the pin and made the changes at the right time worked for him.
Southgate should take this match and study it carefully, he has plenty to learn and this could be the making of him.
He has now failed to go the distance in two tournaments where for a bit more bravery on his part he could of and should have taken both.
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Don’t talk daft,
After they equalised they stayed on top for another 10-15 mins but after that it was very even and in extra time we looked like the side who wanted to score, Italy looked happy for pens.
All the pundits said all that after Russia yet 3 years later we’ve done it again.
Of course there’s teams you’d rather play but it’s ridiculous to say that’s the only reason we got to the final in an attempt to diminish the achievement.
If someone before the game had offered me 1-1 - into penalties and Pickford was going to save 2 of them - i would have taken it. Fantastic chance to win.
Making two subs defending a corner was a bold move that nearly backfired massively.
It wasn’t bold, it was stupid, Southgate was panicking that he wouldn’t get his penalty takers on in time, as throughout the game he left it late to do something, his mindset needs to change to make us a more offensive unit
Maybe we might have done better with our penalties if the ref had blown for time before we managed to get our subs on!
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Final thought. The officials were excellent. They didn’t fall for Italian antics or even some of the English diving. Question mark over his call on the assault on Grealish from Jorginho. Otherwise they let game flow and added to game rather than subtracted. Well done millionaire Dutch bloke and his two mates.
What about the incident when Chiellini nearly choked Saka with that shirt pull back.
You could argue that he was the last man as Saka would have been on a clear run to goal and no way would anyone have been able to catch him.
Saka had support inside too so could possibly have done a Billy Painter and squared it for a tap in.
Chiellini should hav3 been sent off and IMO the ref bottled doing it.
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Final thought. The officials were excellent. They didn’t fall for Italian antics or even some of the English diving. Question mark over his call on the assault on Grealish from Jorginho. Otherwise they let game flow and added to game rather than subtracted. Well done millionaire Dutch bloke and his two mates.
What about the incident when Chiellini nearly choked Saka with that shirt pull back.
You could argue that he was the last man as Saka would have been on a clear run to goal and no way would anyone have been able to catch him.
Saka had support inside too so could possibly have done a Billy Painter and squared it for a tap in.
Chiellini should hav3 been sent off and IMO the ref bottled doing it.
No way that was a red card offence. He was on the touchline just inside Italy's half.
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A good point made on twitter by Rob Staton
“ If Raheem Sterling wasn’t taking a penalty, why did Marcus Rashford come on for Kyle Walker and play the last three minutes at right back??”
Not a good point really is it,
If the penalties go to sudden death then you’d much rather have Sterling taking one than Walker
Absolutely right mate.
Also Sterling was the one player most likely to burst through in the last three minutes to score or create a goal.
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So do you think they’ve got superior players to us? Man for man I do think they’re mediocre, played well but not full of world class players like France.
Just because you’ve not heard of them doesn’t mean they’re average.
Id not heard of a few of their squad but they’re going to be household names now.
Whatever way you look at it they’re not average and mediocre
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So do you think they’ve got superior players to us? Man for man I do think they’re mediocre, played well but not full of world class players like France.
But it is the team that won the match, not a few individual players.
As Alf Ramsey famously said, he didn’t always pick the best players to make his team the best.
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Final thought. The officials were excellent. They didn’t fall for Italian antics or even some of the English diving. Question mark over his call on the assault on Grealish from Jorginho. Otherwise they let game flow and added to game rather than subtracted. Well done millionaire Dutch bloke and his two mates.
What about the incident when Chiellini nearly choked Saka with that shirt pull back.
You could argue that he was the last man as Saka would have been on a clear run to goal and no way would anyone have been able to catch him.
Saka had support inside too so could possibly have done a Billy Painter and squared it for a tap in.
Chiellini should hav3 been sent off and IMO the ref bottled doing it.
No way that was a red card offence. He was on the touchline just inside Italy's half.
I know where the foul took place mate but the fact is, our player was past the last man and Chiellini was never going to catch him.
No wonder he was smiling when the ref showed the yellow card.
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Final thought. The officials were excellent. They didn’t fall for Italian antics or even some of the English diving. Question mark over his call on the assault on Grealish from Jorginho. Otherwise they let game flow and added to game rather than subtracted. Well done millionaire Dutch bloke and his two mates.
What about the incident when Chiellini nearly choked Saka with that shirt pull back.
You could argue that he was the last man as Saka would have been on a clear run to goal and no way would anyone have been able to catch him.
Saka had support inside too so could possibly have done a Billy Painter and squared it for a tap in.
Chiellini should hav3 been sent off and IMO the ref bottled doing it.
No way that was a red card offence. He was on the touchline just inside Italy's half.
I know where the foul took place mate but the fact is, our player was past the last man and Chiellini was never going to catch him.
Never a red card. We’d have been raging if it had gone against us.
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It looked bad because of how he fouled him, but it was a booking not dismissal.
Officials did a very good job, potentially bar the Jorginho assault on Grealish.
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I know what you are saying but he grabbed the neck of his shirt and pulled him to the floor I’ve seen players grab shirts but never the back of the neck. Also how does Jorgeno only get a yellow when his studs go into the knee / thigh of Grealish that should have been a red. But we lost and the talking point is the penalties but the referee was slightly biased towards the Italians last night.
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Final thought. The officials were excellent. They didn’t fall for Italian antics or even some of the English diving. Question mark over his call on the assault on Grealish from Jorginho. Otherwise they let game flow and added to game rather than subtracted. Well done millionaire Dutch bloke and his two mates.
What about the incident when Chiellini nearly choked Saka with that shirt pull back.
You could argue that he was the last man as Saka would have been on a clear run to goal and no way would anyone have been able to catch him.
Saka had support inside too so could possibly have done a Billy Painter and squared it for a tap in.
Chiellini should hav3 been sent off and IMO the ref bottled doing it.
No way that was a red card offence. He was on the touchline just inside Italy's half.
I know where the foul took place mate but the fact is, our player was past the last man and Chiellini was never going to catch him.
Never a red card. We’d have been raging if it had gone against us.
Gaz, I remember us all raging when that Sunderland defender only got a yellow when he caught the ball on halfway to stop our player having a free run at goal.
I agree that otherwise the ref was quite good.
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A good point made on twitter by Rob Staton
“ If Raheem Sterling wasn’t taking a penalty, why did Marcus Rashford come on for Kyle Walker and play the last three minutes at right back??”
He was above Walker but not in the first 5?
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Final thought. The officials were excellent. They didn’t fall for Italian antics or even some of the English diving. Question mark over his call on the assault on Grealish from Jorginho. Otherwise they let game flow and added to game rather than subtracted. Well done millionaire Dutch bloke and his two mates.
What about the incident when Chiellini nearly choked Saka with that shirt pull back.
You could argue that he was the last man as Saka would have been on a clear run to goal and no way would anyone have been able to catch him.
Saka had support inside too so could possibly have done a Billy Painter and squared it for a tap in.
Chiellini should hav3 been sent off and IMO the ref bottled doing it.
No way that was a red card offence. He was on the touchline just inside Italy's half.
I know where the foul took place mate but the fact is, our player was past the last man and Chiellini was never going to catch him.
No wonder he was smiling when the ref showed the yellow card.
There were 2 Italian players infield closer to goal, Chiellini wasn’t the last man. There were no England players in their half other than Saka either so not sure who you mean by the support inside.
Horrible “challenge” but under the current rules of the game it’s not a red card.
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That’s ok Nick, you have your opinion.
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So do you think they’ve got superior players to us? Man for man I do think they’re mediocre, played well but not full of world class players like France.
Just because you’ve not heard of them doesn’t mean they’re average.
Id not heard of a few of their squad but they’re going to be household names now.
Whatever way you look at it they’re not average and mediocre
Unfortunately I know all their players, after losing a fortune on Football Index, been watching the likes of Belotti and Chiesa for a couple of years. Agree with what Hound says about the team over individuals but still standby what I said, they’re not brilliant, gave them far too much respect. When we eventually got Grealish on and got at them a bit they were ragged.
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That’s ok Nick, you have your opinion.
Didn't you see the two players in the middle then ;)
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That’s ok Nick, you have your opinion.
Didn't you see the two players in the middle then ;)
I’ll tell you what mate, had an England defender done that to an Italian, there would have half a dozen of our posters shaming him and saying he was lucky to only get a yellow card.
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That’s ok Nick, you have your opinion.
I’ll have my opinion but you might want to consider having an eye test!
;) :blink:
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That’s ok Nick, you have your opinion.
I’ll have my opinion but you might want to consider having an eye test!
;) :blink:
Nah, One of those defenders would have had to come over to Saka and Sterling would have easily got past the other one………. ready for the tap in. ;)
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The last World Cup we only just missed out in the final.
It’s a bit silly to say we won’t reach a final again,
The players we have are as good as anyone else in the world, this tournament has proven that
Er, if I recall England did not make the final. And on that note let’s talk about England’s progress in that competition.
Group stage. Win against a poor Tunisia followed by a similar game against Panama. Two easy games on paper. Then lose against Belgium in a game the press billed as a “good one to lose” as it set up an easier next game. (Sound familiar?)
Win against Columbia ((pens) then against Sweden before losing to Croatia in the semi. Couldn’t even beat Belgium to get third place.
In many ways, this has been a carbon copy tournament with the exception of getting to the final.
The current squad have been great. No doubt.
But it’s not enough.
Drives me mad when people keep going on about our “easy” routes in tournaments
No other supporters in the world would look at it in such a negative way.
Have a look at the teams Portugal played in the last euro to win it,
If donny got to the fa cup final would you care who they played.
The fact is in this tournament we’ve beaten
Croatia, the World Cup finalists who went on to draw with Spain
Czech Republic who Knocked out Holland
Germany
Denmark who were as good as anyone after rhe first two games and had the massive motivation,
And then we’ve lost on penalties in the final to a side who everyone has been raving about
It's not negative. It is recognising a fact.
England will be very fortunate to get a path to the latter stages for a third time in a row without running into a serious contendernin R2 or QF.
Saying that does not in any way belittle what England have achieved. It contextualises it. There's likely to be a significant improvement needed to match, let alone better these last two tournament performances. And for once in my life, I think that is doable.
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Final thought. The officials were excellent. They didn’t fall for Italian antics or even some of the English diving. Question mark over his call on the assault on Grealish from Jorginho. Otherwise they let game flow and added to game rather than subtracted. Well done millionaire Dutch bloke and his two mates.
What about the incident when Chiellini nearly choked Saka with that shirt pull back.
You could argue that he was the last man as Saka would have been on a clear run to goal and no way would anyone have been able to catch him.
Saka had support inside too so could possibly have done a Billy Painter and squared it for a tap in.
Chiellini should hav3 been sent off and IMO the ref bottled doing it.
No way that was a red card offence. He was on the touchline just inside Italy's half.
I know where the foul took place mate but the fact is, our player was past the last man and Chiellini was never going to catch him.
No wonder he was smiling when the ref showed the yellow card.
There were 2 Italian players infield closer to goal, Chiellini wasn’t the last man. There were no England players in their half other than Saka either so not sure who you mean by the support inside.
Horrible “challenge” but under the current rules of the game it’s not a red card.
Your last sentence says it all, Nick; under the current rules it's not a red card, but it bloody well should be, and I hope something's done to change it.
It looked like something you'd see from a drunken thug on a Saturday night. I've seen players sent off in Rugby League for similar incidents.
That needs cutting out of the game immediately. He nearly f*cking choked him.
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You may not be using it as a way to belittle the achievement billy, but there’s plenty that are.
This tournament we’ve played some very good sides the only game we were fortunate in getting was the Ukraine game.
Our group wasn’t the toughest but it certainly wasn’t the easiest,
Germany in the 2nd round as as tough as it could’ve been, and Denmark in the semis was always going to be tough after what they’ve been through
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The last World Cup we only just missed out in the final.
It’s a bit silly to say we won’t reach a final again,
The players we have are as good as anyone else in the world, this tournament has proven that
Er, if I recall England did not make the final. And on that note let’s talk about England’s progress in that competition.
Group stage. Win against a poor Tunisia followed by a similar game against Panama. Two easy games on paper. Then lose against Belgium in a game the press billed as a “good one to lose” as it set up an easier next game. (Sound familiar?)
Win against Columbia ((pens) then against Sweden before losing to Croatia in the semi. Couldn’t even beat Belgium to get third place.
In many ways, this has been a carbon copy tournament with the exception of getting to the final.
The current squad have been great. No doubt.
But it’s not enough.
Drives me mad when people keep going on about our “easy” routes in tournaments
No other supporters in the world would look at it in such a negative way.
Have a look at the teams Portugal played in the last euro to win it,
If donny got to the fa cup final would you care who they played.
The fact is in this tournament we’ve beaten
Croatia, the World Cup finalists who went on to draw with Spain
Czech Republic who Knocked out Holland
Germany
Denmark who were as good as anyone after rhe first two games and had the massive motivation,
And then we’ve lost on penalties in the final to a side who everyone has been raving about
It's not negative. It is recognising a fact.
England will be very fortunate to get a path to the latter stages for a third time in a row without running into a serious contendernin R2 or QF.
Saying that does not in any way belittle what England have achieved. It contextualises it. There's likely to be a significant improvement needed to match, let alone better these last two tournament performances. And for once in my life, I think that is doable.
Not replying to you specifically but who genuinely has "run the gauntlet" in terms of winning a major tournament? Certainly this milennium? As every tournament gets diluted with average teams it's highly unlikely that we're going to have to beat Holland then Argentina then Spain then Italy to win a WC.
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Chellini wasn’t a red. The one on Grealish certainly was.
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The last World Cup we only just missed out in the final.
It’s a bit silly to say we won’t reach a final again,
The players we have are as good as anyone else in the world, this tournament has proven that
Er, if I recall England did not make the final. And on that note let’s talk about England’s progress in that competition.
Group stage. Win against a poor Tunisia followed by a similar game against Panama. Two easy games on paper. Then lose against Belgium in a game the press billed as a “good one to lose” as it set up an easier next game. (Sound familiar?)
Win against Columbia ((pens) then against Sweden before losing to Croatia in the semi. Couldn’t even beat Belgium to get third place.
In many ways, this has been a carbon copy tournament with the exception of getting to the final.
The current squad have been great. No doubt.
But it’s not enough.
Drives me mad when people keep going on about our “easy” routes in tournaments
No other supporters in the world would look at it in such a negative way.
Have a look at the teams Portugal played in the last euro to win it,
If donny got to the fa cup final would you care who they played.
The fact is in this tournament we’ve beaten
Croatia, the World Cup finalists who went on to draw with Spain
Czech Republic who Knocked out Holland
Germany
Denmark who were as good as anyone after rhe first two games and had the massive motivation,
And then we’ve lost on penalties in the final to a side who everyone has been raving about
It's not negative. It is recognising a fact.
England will be very fortunate to get a path to the latter stages for a third time in a row without running into a serious contendernin R2 or QF.
Saying that does not in any way belittle what England have achieved. It contextualises it. There's likely to be a significant improvement needed to match, let alone better these last two tournament performances. And for once in my life, I think that is doable.
Not replying to you specifically but who genuinely has "run the gauntlet" in terms of winning a major tournament? Certainly this milennium? As every tournament gets diluted with average teams it's highly unlikely that we're going to have to beat Holland then Argentina then Spain then Italy to win a WC.
Exactly,
No other nation would take any notice
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If beating Germany in the 2nd Round is not a case of beating a top team, I don't know what is. They demolished Portugal in the group stage and have been one of the world's best teams for the entire time this generation of their players has been around.
Nothing easy about our route to this final. Italy on the other hand had a very easy group and an average Austria in the 2nd Round, who they struggled to beat. I expect you'd find similar paths for all recent tournament winners.
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That is very fair RA.
It won’t be good enough for some people though, some of who like to have a pop at our national team.
IMO of course.
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So as I’m sat watching the minutes tick away on my lateral flow test (14 y/o son tested positive this evening) I figured I’d research the victims in the KO stages of the winners of the alternating WC/Euros since 2000:
E2000
France beat Spain, Portugal, Italy
WC2002
Brazil beat Belgium, England, Turkey, Germany
E2004
Greece(!) beat France, Czech Rep and Portugal
WC2006
Italy beat Australia, Ukraine, Germany, France
E2008
Spain beat Italy, Russia, Germany
WC2010
Spain beat Portugal, Paraguay, Germany, Netherlands
E2012
Spain beat France, Portugal, Italy
WC2014
Germany beat Algeria, France, Brazil, Argentina
E2016
Portugal beat Croatia, Poland, Wales, France
WC2018
France beat Argentina, Uruguay, Belgium, Croatia
E2020(1)
Italy beat Austria, Belgium, Spain, England.
Applying nothing but a bit of opinionated logic to who qualifies as a big nation or was a big nation at a time I still think you only need to beat, on average , 2 major players to win a tournament. Some have definitely beat the lot (although tbf Spain were a freak of nature 2008 – 2012) but it’s not unlikely we could face a similar path to WC glory in 15 months time as we faced in the last few weeks.
Or Iceland dispatch us and normal service is resumed.
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Good post that
If we’d won the shootout yesterday a route of
Germany, Ukraine, Denmark, Italy wouldn’t look out of place with all these other routes
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The last World Cup we only just missed out in the final.
It’s a bit silly to say we won’t reach a final again,
The players we have are as good as anyone else in the world, this tournament has proven that
Er, if I recall England did not make the final. And on that note let’s talk about England’s progress in that competition.
Group stage. Win against a poor Tunisia followed by a similar game against Panama. Two easy games on paper. Then lose against Belgium in a game the press billed as a “good one to lose” as it set up an easier next game. (Sound familiar?)
Win against Columbia ((pens) then against Sweden before losing to Croatia in the semi. Couldn’t even beat Belgium to get third place.
In many ways, this has been a carbon copy tournament with the exception of getting to the final.
The current squad have been great. No doubt.
But it’s not enough.
Drives me mad when people keep going on about our “easy” routes in tournaments
No other supporters in the world would look at it in such a negative way.
Have a look at the teams Portugal played in the last euro to win it,
If donny got to the fa cup final would you care who they played.
The fact is in this tournament we’ve beaten
Croatia, the World Cup finalists who went on to draw with Spain
Czech Republic who Knocked out Holland
Germany
Denmark who were as good as anyone after rhe first two games and had the massive motivation,
And then we’ve lost on penalties in the final to a side who everyone has been raving about
It's not negative. It is recognising a fact.
England will be very fortunate to get a path to the latter stages for a third time in a row without running into a serious contendernin R2 or QF.
Saying that does not in any way belittle what England have achieved. It contextualises it. There's likely to be a significant improvement needed to match, let alone better these last two tournament performances. And for once in my life, I think that is doable.
Not replying to you specifically but who genuinely has "run the gauntlet" in terms of winning a major tournament? Certainly this milennium? As every tournament gets diluted with average teams it's highly unlikely that we're going to have to beat Holland then Argentina then Spain then Italy to win a WC.
How about Italy in this tournament?
They've just faced the world ranked No. 1, 7 and 4 in consecutive matches.
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Last WC, France beat Argentina, Uruguay and Belgium to reach the final.
One before that, Germany faced France, Brazil and Argentina in consecutive matches.
It's just a fact that we have had two exceptionally fortunate runs. Sooner or later the odds will balance out. So this squad needs to dig deep to find more in itself.
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World rankings are a joke though aren’t they
Give no indication really at all
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Last WC, France beat Argentina, Uruguay and Belgium to reach the final.
One before that, Germany faced France, Brazil and Argentina in consecutive matches.
It's just a fact that we have had two exceptionally fortunate runs. Sooner or later the odds will balance out. So this squad needs to dig deep to find more in itself.
It’s not a fact at all
The run we’ve had this year is a lot tougher than Portugal’s was.
You’ve picked a couple of tough runs to match your point but there’s others in there no tougher than ours
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Last WC, France beat Argentina, Uruguay and Belgium to reach the final.
One before that, Germany faced France, Brazil and Argentina in consecutive matches.
It's just a fact that we have had two exceptionally fortunate runs. Sooner or later the odds will balance out. So this squad needs to dig deep to find more in itself.
Hmmmmmmmm. That's a tough point to debate. Obviously if you offer me the same knockout path we just had in every future tournament I'll take it. But, you've still got to win them. I'm sure if you offered a French fan Switzerland in the KO stages next tournament he'd take it so I'm not sure about the odds balancing out. I don't think its beyond the realms of possibility we could get an easier draw in Qatar given football outside of Europe is fairly weak atm. It's always possible in knockout football you could have a favourable draw in the quarters of a major tournament and not make the most of it, even David O'Leary knows that :lol:
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Let’s not forget that if England had faced Spain and Belgium then the Spanish would’ve been toothless and on the slide, and the Belgians injury ravaged and overrated. It’s all relative.
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Last WC, France beat Argentina, Uruguay and Belgium to reach the final.
One before that, Germany faced France, Brazil and Argentina in consecutive matches.
It's just a fact that we have had two exceptionally fortunate runs. Sooner or later the odds will balance out. So this squad needs to dig deep to find more in itself.
It’s not a fact at all
The run we’ve had this year is a lot tougher than Portugal’s was.
You’ve picked a couple of tough runs to match your point but there’s others in there no tougher than ours
Dickos.
I fully agree that Portugal had an easier run. But the fact remains that the winners of 3 of the last 4 tournaments (arguably 6 of the last 7) had much harder routes. Portugal's run was the exception, not the rule.
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Last WC, France beat Argentina, Uruguay and Belgium to reach the final.
One before that, Germany faced France, Brazil and Argentina in consecutive matches.
It's just a fact that we have had two exceptionally fortunate runs. Sooner or later the odds will balance out. So this squad needs to dig deep to find more in itself.
It’s not a fact at all
The run we’ve had this year is a lot tougher than Portugal’s was.
You’ve picked a couple of tough runs to match your point but there’s others in there no tougher than ours
Dickos.
I fully agree that Portugal had an easier run. But the fact remains that the winners of 3 of the last 4 tournaments (arguably 6 of the last 7) had much harder routes. Portugal's run was the exception, not the rule.
That last 7 is heavily skewed by Spain winning 3 though. Borderline freakshow like us in 03/04 - perfect players in a perfect system.
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What the Chiellini card clearly illustrates is what we new from the start. He can not cope with pace. Sako should have been on from the start pure and simple. At some point then be would been sent off. Southgate got that wrong.
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World rankings are a joke though aren’t they
Give no indication really at all
Are you being serious?
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World rankings are a joke though aren’t they
Give no indication really at all
It's a simple question really isn't it?
Given the choice of Austria, Belgium and Spain as your route to a final, or Germany, Ukraine and Denmark, on current standards, which would you choose?
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World rankings are a joke though aren’t they
Give no indication really at all
It's a simple question really isn't it?
Given the choice of Austria, Belgium and Spain as your route to a final, or Germany, Ukraine and Denmark, on current standards, which would you choose?
Flip a coin. It's dependant on the acceptance of Belgium as #1.
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World rankings are a joke though aren’t they
Give no indication really at all
It's a simple question really isn't it?
Given the choice of Austria, Belgium and Spain as your route to a final, or Germany, Ukraine and Denmark, on current standards, which would you choose?
Flip a coin. It's dependant on the acceptance of Belgium as #1.
Really?
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World rankings are a joke though aren’t they
Give no indication really at all
It's a simple question really isn't it?
Given the choice of Austria, Belgium and Spain as your route to a final, or Germany, Ukraine and Denmark, on current standards, which would you choose?
Flip a coin. It's dependant on the acceptance of Belgium as #1.
Really?
Spain warmed up as the tournament progressed so it's a tough one for me - if we'd have faced them when we faced Germany I think we'd have beaten them. We have the best defence and they needed numerous chances to score. Plus I don't think Denmark were given enough credit.
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Belgium's status as long-term world #1 showd you the rankings aren't the measuring stick. I do think you're using them to justify your point BST, in the face of good evidence to the contrary.
Those two routes you've presented - Italy and England's in Euro 2020 - are pretty much the same level of difficulty. Adding in that I would say Italy had an easier group "on paper" than England too.
DN's list shows that you only usually have to beat 2 truly top nations to win it. That 2002 Brazil team was lauded as incredible yet they were lucky to beat us, had to beat a vastly inferior Belgium and were lucky to get Turkey in the semi-finals. But they were still a great team and deserved the trophy at the end of the summer.
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You may not be using it as a way to belittle the achievement billy, but there’s plenty that are.
This tournament we’ve played some very good sides the only game we were fortunate in getting was the Ukraine game.
Our group wasn’t the toughest but it certainly wasn’t the easiest,
Germany in the 2nd round as as tough as it could’ve been, and Denmark in the semis was always going to be tough after what they’ve been through
We’ve been favourite in all of Southgates 7 major tournament knock out games. We’ve won three in normal time. Ukraine, Sweden and Germany.
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You may not be using it as a way to belittle the achievement billy, but there’s plenty that are.
This tournament we’ve played some very good sides the only game we were fortunate in getting was the Ukraine game.
Our group wasn’t the toughest but it certainly wasn’t the easiest,
Germany in the 2nd round as as tough as it could’ve been, and Denmark in the semis was always going to be tough after what they’ve been through
We’ve been favourite in all of Southgates 7 major tournament knock out games. We’ve won three in normal time. Ukraine, Sweden and Germany.
Yes, but how many have we lost in normal time ?
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You may not be using it as a way to belittle the achievement billy, but there’s plenty that are.
This tournament we’ve played some very good sides the only game we were fortunate in getting was the Ukraine game.
Our group wasn’t the toughest but it certainly wasn’t the easiest,
Germany in the 2nd round as as tough as it could’ve been, and Denmark in the semis was always going to be tough after what they’ve been through
We’ve been favourite in all of Southgates 7 major tournament knock out games. We’ve won three in normal time. Ukraine, Sweden and Germany.
Yes, but how many have we lost in normal time ?
Footballs actually about winning in the KO stages, not not losing.
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Southgate is the most successful manager we have had since 66 , however …..in 2 competitions he has used a defensive strategy from a position of strength when it would have been better to continue with an offensive strategy!
I don’t know if the defensive part of his dna will allow him to just go for it and use all the weapons at his disposal, ….. we shall see at the World Cup whether he has learned anything from our capitulation and eventual loss
Perhaps the rumour of a place on the honours list caused him to change tactic, who knows
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Southgate is the most successful manager we have had since 66 , however …..in 2 competitions he has used a defensive strategy from a position of strength when it would have been better to continue with an offensive strategy!
I don’t know if the defensive part of his dna will allow him to just go for it and use all the weapons at his disposal, ….. we shall see at the World Cup whether he has learned anything from our capitulation and eventual loss
Perhaps the rumour of a place on the honours list caused him to change tactic, who knows
Your first comment is correct, so what makes you think you're a better judge than Southgate of what is the better game strategy?
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You may not be using it as a way to belittle the achievement billy, but there’s plenty that are.
This tournament we’ve played some very good sides the only game we were fortunate in getting was the Ukraine game.
Our group wasn’t the toughest but it certainly wasn’t the easiest,
Germany in the 2nd round as as tough as it could’ve been, and Denmark in the semis was always going to be tough after what they’ve been through
We’ve been favourite in all of Southgates 7 major tournament knock out games. We’ve won three in normal time. Ukraine, Sweden and Germany.
If you mean favourites because of our bookies then we’re always favourites. We were favourites against Italy.
Every game we play we’re favourites with the English bookies.
Normal time is irrelevant the point is if we qualify or not, if that wasn’t the case then we would’ve shared the euros.
Out of the 7 knock out games mentioned, we’ve qualified in 5 of them.
No other side has managed to reach at least the semis in the last two major tournaments, not to mention the nations league
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Southgate is the most successful manager we have had since 66 , however …..in 2 competitions he has used a defensive strategy from a position of strength when it would have been better to continue with an offensive strategy!
I don’t know if the defensive part of his dna will allow him to just go for it and use all the weapons at his disposal, ….. we shall see at the World Cup whether he has learned anything from our capitulation and eventual loss
Perhaps the rumour of a place on the honours list caused him to change tactic, who knows
Your first comment is correct, so what makes you think you're a better judge than Southgate of what is the better game strategy?
Do you think he chose the right one, even though a lot of press and punditry believe otherwise….
and I don’t think anything….it’s my opinion only, of which I am entitled to have!
If your opinion is that he got it right then we deservedly came second
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Our defence is our strength.
That’s why we only conceded one goal in open play throughout the whole tournament.
We had 4 attacking players in most games, how many do you think we should have?
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Our defence is our strength.
That’s why we only conceded one goal in open play throughout the whole tournament.
We had 4 attacking players in most games, how many do you think we should have?
That’s fine then…..so nearly everyone in the land noticed we played a very different 2nd half compared to the first, especially the sports writers and pundits…
Some even compared it to the exit of the previous World Cup ….
Lots of debate on here pointed to the fact we had a very strong attacking bench of players,
The conclusion being ( not my opinion) that Southgate got something wrong….some say he never had a plan B, some say he bottled it for a mention on the honours list, which I don’t believe by the way…..
Now I don’t know what he should have done ….but what I and many others witnessed was something he shouldn’t have done…..
Perhaps we are just not ready for the big win and probably won’t be for a few years to come….
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Our defence is our strength.
That’s why we only conceded one goal in open play throughout the whole tournament.
We had 4 attacking players in most games, how many do you think we should have?
That’s fine then…..so nearly everyone in the land noticed we played a very different 2nd half compared to the first, especially the sports writers and pundits…
Some even compared it to the exit of the previous World Cup ….
Lots of debate on here pointed to the fact we had a very strong attacking bench of players,
The conclusion being ( not my opinion) that Southgate got something wrong….some say he never had a plan B, some say he bottled it for a mention on the honours list, which I don’t believe by the way…..
Now I don’t know what he should have done ….but what I and many others witnessed was something he shouldn’t have done…..
Perhaps we are just not ready for the big win and probably won’t be for a few years to come….
What you seem to be forgetting is that there were two sides playing, and the one we were playing were a very good side.
We didn’t play any different, Italy did.
And so they should they’re 1-0 down in a final with 45 mins to go, of course they going to be pushing for a goal.
If it was the other way around so would we be.
Yes we had a lot of good players on the bench but we can’t play them all, you may not realise but over the last few decades we’ve had managers that have shoehorned all our best players into the starting 11, and all we’ve had is abject failure.
Southgate moulded a team, and the most successful team we’ve had for 55 years.
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I guess your right then……
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I'm not sure Southgate has what it takes to get England over the line. He doesn't strike me as a winner in the way that someone like Mancini (4 league titles, 4 Coppa Italias and 1 FA Cup) does.
What concerns me most, however - and I've not seen it mentioned on here - is the fact that Southgate didn't seem to have learned from the Croatia WC semi-final defeat three years ago. The parallels from both games were uncanny. Early goal (coincidentally from full backs) and then we just....wait for the inevitable leveller.
Purely in the final alone, he lacked the courage to keep his wing backs high. From 20 minutes on, we played with a back five and he perhaps should have gone to a flat back four.
He lacked the courage to change things - Henderson's nous? Grealish's flair? - when it was clear to everyone that we had lost a foothold in the game.
Putting on Rashford and Sancho specifically to take pens didn't work, whichever way you look at it.
On home soil, to have surrendered a one goal lead in normal time and then the advantage in the shootout, well, we'll just never get that chance again I'm afraid.
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Our defence is our strength.
That’s why we only conceded one goal in open play throughout the whole tournament.
We had 4 attacking players in most games, how many do you think we should have?
That’s fine then…..so nearly everyone in the land noticed we played a very different 2nd half compared to the first, especially the sports writers and pundits…
Some even compared it to the exit of the previous World Cup ….
Lots of debate on here pointed to the fact we had a very strong attacking bench of players,
The conclusion being ( not my opinion) that Southgate got something wrong….some say he never had a plan B, some say he bottled it for a mention on the honours list, which I don’t believe by the way…..
Now I don’t know what he should have done ….but what I and many others witnessed was something he shouldn’t have done…..
Perhaps we are just not ready for the big win and probably won’t be for a few years to come….
What you seem to be forgetting is that there were two sides playing, and the one we were playing were a very good side.
We didn’t play any different, Italy did.
And so they should they’re 1-0 down in a final with 45 mins to go, of course they going to be pushing for a goal.
If it was the other way around so would we be.
Yes we had a lot of good players on the bench but we can’t play them all, you may not realise but over the last few decades we’ve had managers that have shoehorned all our best players into the starting 11, and all we’ve had is abject failure.
Southgate moulded a team, and the most successful team we’ve had for 55 years.
It depends on how you look at success. He has won exactly the same as every other manager since 1966!! ............Nothing.
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It’s not as black & white as that.
Getting knocked out by Iceland in the first knockout stage of the tournament is not the same as reaching the final and losing on penalties.
That’s progress whichever way you want to look at it
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I'm not sure Southgate has what it takes to get England over the line. He doesn't strike me as a winner in the way that someone like Mancini (4 league titles, 4 Coppa Italias and 1 FA Cup) does.
What concerns me most, however - and I've not seen it mentioned on here - is the fact that Southgate didn't seem to have learned from the Croatia WC semi-final defeat three years ago. The parallels from both games were uncanny. Early goal (coincidentally from full backs) and then we just....wait for the inevitable leveller.
Purely in the final alone, he lacked the courage to keep his wing backs high. From 20 minutes on, we played with a back five and he perhaps should have gone to a flat back four.
He lacked the courage to change things - Henderson's nous? Grealish's flair? - when it was clear to everyone that we had lost a foothold in the game.
Putting on Rashford and Sancho specifically to take pens didn't work, whichever way you look at it.
On home soil, to have surrendered a one goal lead in normal time and then the advantage in the shootout, well, we'll just never get that chance again I'm afraid.
You make some good points, however I don’t agree with the point about rashford and sancho, if you have two players on the bench who are two of the best penalty takers in your squad, of course you would try and get them on for the shootout
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What we will never know is if any of the other players would has taken a better penalty under pressure. That is totally different to taking them in training. I do feel though that if Rashford's had gone in there would have been less pressure on the other two and we would probably have won it.
I'm not trying to blame anyone but it is very fine margins sometimes between winning and losing.
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Rashford has a brilliant record from the spot, including high-stakes penalties, and Sancho is certainly better than many in the squad, so I would say it was a good idea to get them both on. Southgate did what he could getting them on the pitch, after that it's on them. If Rashford's penalty is 2 inches to the right IMO we win that shootout. Fine margins.
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What we will never know is if any of the other players would has taken a better penalty under pressure. That is totally different to taking them in training. I do feel though that if Rashford's had gone in there would have been less pressure on the other two and we would probably have won it.
I'm not trying to blame anyone but it is very fine margins sometimes between winning and losing.
Of course we will never know, but if you have two good penalty takers on the bench then of course you’re going to get them on the pitch for the shootout.
I’m sure he’d do exactly the same again
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I’m assuming that Harry McGuire takes Man Utd penalties seems as he stepped right up ?
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What we will never know is if any of the other players would has taken a better penalty under pressure. That is totally different to taking them in training. I do feel though that if Rashford's had gone in there would have been less pressure on the other two and we would probably have won it.
I'm not trying to blame anyone but it is very fine margins sometimes between winning and losing.
That’s why penalties are the best way to win! But on the flip side the worse way to lose.
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I’m assuming that Harry McGuire takes Man Utd penalties seems as he stepped right up ?
You’d assume wrong!
They’ve been practising penalties for the last 6 weeks everyday.
Maguire also took one in the last shootout
He was right to choose maguire was he not?
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I’m assuming that Harry McGuire takes Man Utd penalties seems as he stepped right up ?
You’d assume wrong!
They’ve been practising penalties for the last 6 weeks everyday.
Maguire also took one in the last shootout
He was right to choose maguire was he not?
Yes …but not the 2 that came on,
They were cold and Un-adrenalised, they didn’t have the game running through their blood and they weren’t fatigue hardened…….they just took good penalties in a controlled, sterile situation…… and they both missed, so onwards and hopefully upwards, but I don’t think we have a competition win in us …..
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Making subs for the pens was right. Leaving it to a minute before the penalty was wrong IMO. Give them 10-20 min to get into the game. Anyone shoes played will tell you it takes a bit to get into it off the bench and that applies even to pens
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I'm not sure Southgate has what it takes to get England over the line. He doesn't strike me as a winner in the way that someone like Mancini (4 league titles, 4 Coppa Italias and 1 FA Cup) does.
What concerns me most, however - and I've not seen it mentioned on here - is the fact that Southgate didn't seem to have learned from the Croatia WC semi-final defeat three years ago. The parallels from both games were uncanny. Early goal (coincidentally from full backs) and then we just....wait for the inevitable leveller.
Purely in the final alone, he lacked the courage to keep his wing backs high. From 20 minutes on, we played with a back five and he perhaps should have gone to a flat back four.
He lacked the courage to change things - Henderson's nous? Grealish's flair? - when it was clear to everyone that we had lost a foothold in the game.
Putting on Rashford and Sancho specifically to take pens didn't work, whichever way you look at it.
On home soil, to have surrendered a one goal lead in normal time and then the advantage in the shootout, well, we'll just never get that chance again I'm afraid.
Absolutely spot on DM. Entirely sums up my own feelings about Southgate and his mis management of the team
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How can it be mismanagement?
He got to the final, we conceded one goal in open play throughout the whole tournament.
Mismanagement came from the likes of Sven, capello, who had better players than we have now and consistently failed with them tournament after tournament
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How can it be mismanagement?
He got to the final, we conceded one goal in open play throughout the whole tournament.
Mismanagement came from the likes of Sven, capello, who had better players than we have now and consistently failed with them tournament after tournament
Once again you pick up on the 2 word opinion of a poster “ mis-management” and give your opinion on those 2 words…
Re read the original post and if you don’t agree with it say why!
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Southgate has built a very good team who are extremely hard to beat. The progress he’s made since taking over the role has been fabulous. It’s easy to forget just how poor we were prior to him taking over. Some of the criticism directed at him is just bizarre to say the least. We were beaten in the final on penalties by a side that were unbeaten in 34 games. This England side have time to continue to develop and improve…and they will. This is a great time to follow England.
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How can it be mismanagement?
He got to the final, we conceded one goal in open play throughout the whole tournament.
Mismanagement came from the likes of Sven, capello, who had better players than we have now and consistently failed with them tournament after tournament
Once again you pick up on the 2 word opinion of a poster “ mis-management” and give your opinion on those 2 words…
Re read the original post and if you don’t agree with it say why!
I’ve said many times why I disagree,
He’s transformed our national team while he’s been in charge, the squad he took over was a joke
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All my pre match fears were confirmed last Sunday night when Verratti , Jorginho and co controlled the midfield .
The uncomfortable truth is that we do not produce those kind of midfield players in this country who are so effective at the top level of international football .
The PL is fast and aggressive and that's what the UK punters like to see , we do not care too much for possession based patient football in this country .
It goes further too , we simply haven't the same technical ability to play out from the back as the top international teams do , light years away from the Spanish for instance .
The sight of Pickford hoofing it down the field in the second half was cringeworthy for a nation in the final of a major tournament .
We can thank our lucky stars we didn't come up against the Spaniards in the final because we would have been embarrassed even further in my opinion .
The Italians couldn't get near them in their semi final .
Southgate's done well and changed the culture around the England set up to great affect but he has his limitations tactically in my opinion and has too much of a cautious approach .
The Brazilians would have found a way to get ALL those young attacking talented players on the field and let the opposition worry about them .
Play to your strengths .
However as I said earlier you can have all the talent in the world up top but if you can't get the ball and keep it then it's going to be extremely difficult at the highest level .
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All my pre match fears were confirmed last Sunday night when Verratti , Jorginho and co controlled the midfield .
The uncomfortable truth is that we do not produce those kind of midfield players in this country who are so effective at the top level of international football .
The PL is fast and aggressive and that's what the UK punters like to see , we do not care too much for possession based patient football in this country .
It goes further too , we simply haven't the same technical ability to play out from the back as the top international teams do , light years away from the Spanish for instance .
The sight of Pickford hoofing it down the field in the second half was cringeworthy for a nation in the final of a major tournament .
We can thank our lucky stars we didn't come up against the Spaniards in the final because we would have been embarrassed even further in my opinion .
The Italians couldn't get near them in their semi final .
Southgate's done well and changed the culture around the England set up to great affect but he has his limitations tactically in my opinion and has too much of a cautious approach .
The Brazilians would have found a way to get ALL those young attacking talented players on the field and let the opposition worry about them .
Play to your strengths .
However as I said earlier you can have all the talent in the world up top but if you can't get the ball and keep it then it's going to be extremely difficult at the highest level .
With regards Brazil, they may well have done but in recent years they’ve suffered lots of failure.
I keep saying this but we’ve gone down the route of playing all our best players and shoehorning them into a side and it’s never worked.
Southgate is the only manager that’s moulded a team together rather than just throwing all his best players in and it’s worked.
For me our midfield was outstanding and the defence even more so, those two departments are our strength and we had an outstanding tournament
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All my pre match fears were confirmed last Sunday night when Verratti , Jorginho and co controlled the midfield .
The uncomfortable truth is that we do not produce those kind of midfield players in this country who are so effective at the top level of international football .
The PL is fast and aggressive and that's what the UK punters like to see , we do not care too much for possession based patient football in this country .
It goes further too , we simply haven't the same technical ability to play out from the back as the top international teams do , light years away from the Spanish for instance .
The sight of Pickford hoofing it down the field in the second half was cringeworthy for a nation in the final of a major tournament .
We can thank our lucky stars we didn't come up against the Spaniards in the final because we would have been embarrassed even further in my opinion .
The Italians couldn't get near them in their semi final .
Southgate's done well and changed the culture around the England set up to great affect but he has his limitations tactically in my opinion and has too much of a cautious approach .
The Brazilians would have found a way to get ALL those young attacking talented players on the field and let the opposition worry about them .
Play to your strengths .
However as I said earlier you can have all the talent in the world up top but if you can't get the ball and keep it then it's going to be extremely difficult at the highest level .
Some very perceptive points there,
Its all well and good saying that our defence and midfield have been great during this tournament, and to a certain extent they have, but when you look closer you can see the fault lines.
When it came to keeping possession and building from the back you could see the limitations in our side compared with not just the Italians but with teams like Croatia, Denmark, Germany. Our buildup play involved defenders who you can see were not comfortable on the ball which meant rushed and poor passing resulting in a big hoof from the defender or Pickford. Our midfielders were either too deep so as to not give the defenders an out ball or attempting worldies which come off 1 in 50, too condensed and slow.
When you looked at the way the continental sides built up from the back all the players were comfortable and in control on the ball, the build up included skilled and control passing from defenders and midfielders with the end product aiming to find a gap over the top or in behind, the goalkeepers rarely touched the ball as the outfield players controlled the pass and move to a very good extent.It also helped that the forwards were not just mobile but were actively looking for space and timing runs intelligently and not forever being offside.
We as a footballing nation have come a long way in the last 25 years with regard to our skills base and patient holdup play, but its never been our style and strength and we are still playing catch up in going down this road.
The moral of the argument seems to be, good attempt but we should of built and developed upon our speed, strength and power game rather than try to reinvent the wheel.
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Maguire and stones and two of the most comfortable centre halves in the world, Shaw is outstanding technically.
We’re very good at bashing our own in this country, Walker and maguire got in the team of the tournament it’s crazy.
You mention Croatia, Denmark and Germany, yet we beat all 3 of them
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Maguire and stones and two of the most comfortable centre halves in the world, Shaw is outstanding technically.
We’re very good at bashing our own in this country, Walker and maguire got in the team of the tournament it’s crazy.
You mention Croatia, Denmark and Germany, yet we beat all 3 of them
I think what he is saying is that the current English game is quick passing and direct attacking which has probably elevated us to one of the best leagues in the world,
however instead of recreating this style, we tended to opt for a slower tempo which doesn’t suit our mentality or ability as much as it suits other teams….and yet we got the better results when we went more attack direct…
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But the players in the prem are made up of the players he mentioned like Jorginho.
I don’t think we changed our style throughout the tournament so not sure why you think we got the best results after changing our style of play?
We got the good results playing the style of olay throughout
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I like your approach, Dickos. Always positive.
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Maguire and stones and two of the most comfortable centre halves in the world, Shaw is outstanding technically.
We’re very good at bashing our own in this country, Walker and maguire got in the team of the tournament it’s crazy.
You mention Croatia, Denmark and Germany, yet we beat all 3 of them
Shaw may be technically outstanding but he has the pace of a 3 legged donkey
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Maguire and stones and two of the most comfortable centre halves in the world, Shaw is outstanding technically.
We’re very good at bashing our own in this country, Walker and maguire got in the team of the tournament it’s crazy.
You mention Croatia, Denmark and Germany, yet we beat all 3 of them
You say that our centre halfs are two of the most comfortable on the ball in the world in your opinion, what i saw was defenders playing a game that was not a good fit for them, if you have to spend a good deal of time passing to each other, and not very accurately at that and then when you have struggled to control a poor pass revert to having to put either the keeper under pressure to hoof, or you do it yourself, i saw us do that on many occasions, i didn't notice that style of play in the other teams mentioned.
The fact that we beat those teams is irrelevant to my point, we opened them up and scored some good goals, we should of converted more, this did not take away from the fact that we are playing a game that is not instinctive to our players, the continentals have been playing this type of football longer and have the technical skills and control to achieve it. Our game as always been a more direct and fluid attacking style that will always include loose or poor control because at the speed we try to play at.
I would always prefer to watch a team attempt to play in a manner like a Dave Penny side from his time(for our supporters benefit) but with technically proficient players with speed, strength and heart, always a more enjoyable spectical than watching a dull and dreary chess game, others may choose the latter, its their choice.
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I don’t recall any occasions where we looked panicked at the back, don’t recall any occasions where our defenders Mis-controlled balls.
The one error which let in muller was made by Sterling.
We had the best defence in the tournament, only one side scored against us in open play,
The Czechs, scored 2 against Holland, Croatia 3 against Spain, Germany 4 against Portugal.
None of them could score against us.
You say we should play a more direct style but whatever style southgate has brought it has been the most successful style we’ve had for a very long time.
Why would you change it
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I don’t recall any occasions where we looked panicked at the back, don’t recall any occasions where our defenders Mis-controlled balls.
The one error which let in muller was made by Sterling.
We had the best defence in the tournament, only one side scored against us in open play,
The Czechs, scored 2 against Holland, Croatia 3 against Spain, Germany 4 against Portugal.
None of them could score against us.
You say we should play a more direct style but whatever style southgate has brought it has been the most successful style we’ve had for a very long time.
Why would you change it
If you are saying that you didn't recall any occasions when we looked unsure at the back, then i don't know what to say ! the fact we had to put the boot in to clear a ball quickly on numerous occasions means to me that you have lost control of the passing build up you were trying to create as all options had been extinguished, that does not lend itself to a controlled and organised build up.
I don't disagree that our defence was bad my point is that how much better could we have been playing to a style that enhanced our strengths rather than diluted them. you could even say that our defence was good because we had such a defence minded setup with the two holding midfielders that this perceived strength was also our downfall in our attacking prowess, we never seemed to me to have sufficient bodies in the attacking third to be able to construct an attacking play. it looked like most defences had plenty of time to reset and stifle our attacking play. This could also be the reason that we won matches by the odd goal of one, so not as penetrative a team as i would like to watch.
Overall no ones bashing anyone or demeaning the players, they did what they did to the best of their ability or the ability that other teams allowed. i just think we missed a massive opportunity, one that i feel will be difficult to achieve again because of the rigid and safety averse nature of our setup will not allow us to kick on.
I don't know that Southgate can learn from these setbacks to push on to the next level, the last world cup demonstrated that progress on that front had not been achieved.
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I don’t recall any occasions where we looked panicked at the back, don’t recall any occasions where our defenders Mis-controlled balls.
The one error which let in muller was made by Sterling.
We had the best defence in the tournament, only one side scored against us in open play,
The Czechs, scored 2 against Holland, Croatia 3 against Spain, Germany 4 against Portugal.
None of them could score against us.
You say we should play a more direct style but whatever style southgate has brought it has been the most successful style we’ve had for a very long time.
Why would you change it
If you are saying that you didn't recall any occasions when we looked unsure at the back, then i don't know what to say ! the fact we had to put the boot in to clear a ball quickly on numerous occasions means to me that you have lost control of the passing build up you were trying to create as all options had been extinguished, that does not lend itself to a controlled and organised build up.
I don't disagree that our defence was bad my point is that how much better could we have been playing to a style that enhanced our strengths rather than diluted them. you could even say that our defence was good because we had such a defence minded setup with the two holding midfielders that this perceived strength was also our downfall in our attacking prowess, we never seemed to me to have sufficient bodies in the attacking third to be able to construct an attacking play. it looked like most defences had plenty of time to reset and stifle our attacking play. This could also be the reason that we won matches by the odd goal of one, so not as penetrative a team as i would like to watch.
Overall no ones bashing anyone or demeaning the players, they did what they did to the best of their ability or the ability that other teams allowed. i just think we missed a massive opportunity, one that i feel will be difficult to achieve again because of the rigid and safety averse nature of our setup will not allow us to kick on.
I don't know that Southgate can learn from these setbacks to push on to the next level, the last world cup demonstrated that progress on that front had not been achieved.
I honestly don’t understand your point,
Every side in the world has to clear the ball sometimes, the only occasions when we looked in trouble at the back was 10 min spell v Denmark when Pickford lost his head and the bad pass by Sterling.
Other than that our defence looked as calm as assured as any other in the tournament.
There is nothing at all wrong with defenders clearing the ball, I can’t believe people think otherwise.
I think Southgate has learnt, of course he has. He’s completely changed the system, and the extra time v Croatia we were very negative but against Denmark in this semi final we absolutely battered them in the first period of extra time and deservedly scored.
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I don’t recall any occasions where we looked panicked at the back, don’t recall any occasions where our defenders Mis-controlled balls.
The one error which let in muller was made by Sterling.
We had the best defence in the tournament, only one side scored against us in open play,
The Czechs, scored 2 against Holland, Croatia 3 against Spain, Germany 4 against Portugal.
None of them could score against us.
You say we should play a more direct style but whatever style southgate has brought it has been the most successful style we’ve had for a very long time.
Why would you change it
If you are saying that you didn't recall any occasions when we looked unsure at the back, then i don't know what to say ! the fact we had to put the boot in to clear a ball quickly on numerous occasions means to me that you have lost control of the passing build up you were trying to create as all options had been extinguished, that does not lend itself to a controlled and organised build up.
I don't disagree that our defence was bad my point is that how much better could we have been playing to a style that enhanced our strengths rather than diluted them. you could even say that our defence was good because we had such a defence minded setup with the two holding midfielders that this perceived strength was also our downfall in our attacking prowess, we never seemed to me to have sufficient bodies in the attacking third to be able to construct an attacking play. it looked like most defences had plenty of time to reset and stifle our attacking play. This could also be the reason that we won matches by the odd goal of one, so not as penetrative a team as i would like to watch.
Overall no ones bashing anyone or demeaning the players, they did what they did to the best of their ability or the ability that other teams allowed. i just think we missed a massive opportunity, one that i feel will be difficult to achieve again because of the rigid and safety averse nature of our setup will not allow us to kick on.
I don't know that Southgate can learn from these setbacks to push on to the next level, the last world cup demonstrated that progress on that front had not been achieved.
I honestly don’t understand your point,
Every side in the world has to clear the ball sometimes, the only occasions when we looked in trouble at the back was 10 min spell v Denmark when Pickford lost his head and the bad pass by Sterling.
Other than that our defence looked as calm as assured as any other in the tournament.
There is nothing at all wrong with defenders clearing the ball, I can’t believe people think otherwise.
I think Southgate has learnt, of course he has. He’s completely changed the system, and the extra time v Croatia we were very negative but against Denmark in this semi final we absolutely battered them in the first period of extra time and deservedly scored.
Like i said earlier i don't think this system that Southgate will persist with will enable us to kick on to the highest level.
It was a good tournament to watch with some sides playing good, fast attacking and fluid football, i just wish that England could of been one of them because if they had then we would of won it.
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I don’t recall any occasions where we looked panicked at the back, don’t recall any occasions where our defenders Mis-controlled balls.
The one error which let in muller was made by Sterling.
We had the best defence in the tournament, only one side scored against us in open play,
The Czechs, scored 2 against Holland, Croatia 3 against Spain, Germany 4 against Portugal.
None of them could score against us.
You say we should play a more direct style but whatever style southgate has brought it has been the most successful style we’ve had for a very long time.
Why would you change it
If you are saying that you didn't recall any occasions when we looked unsure at the back, then i don't know what to say ! the fact we had to put the boot in to clear a ball quickly on numerous occasions means to me that you have lost control of the passing build up you were trying to create as all options had been extinguished, that does not lend itself to a controlled and organised build up.
I don't disagree that our defence was bad my point is that how much better could we have been playing to a style that enhanced our strengths rather than diluted them. you could even say that our defence was good because we had such a defence minded setup with the two holding midfielders that this perceived strength was also our downfall in our attacking prowess, we never seemed to me to have sufficient bodies in the attacking third to be able to construct an attacking play. it looked like most defences had plenty of time to reset and stifle our attacking play. This could also be the reason that we won matches by the odd goal of one, so not as penetrative a team as i would like to watch.
Overall no ones bashing anyone or demeaning the players, they did what they did to the best of their ability or the ability that other teams allowed. i just think we missed a massive opportunity, one that i feel will be difficult to achieve again because of the rigid and safety averse nature of our setup will not allow us to kick on.
I don't know that Southgate can learn from these setbacks to push on to the next level, the last world cup demonstrated that progress on that front had not been achieved.
I honestly don’t understand your point,
Every side in the world has to clear the ball sometimes, the only occasions when we looked in trouble at the back was 10 min spell v Denmark when Pickford lost his head and the bad pass by Sterling.
Other than that our defence looked as calm as assured as any other in the tournament.
There is nothing at all wrong with defenders clearing the ball, I can’t believe people think otherwise.
I think Southgate has learnt, of course he has. He’s completely changed the system, and the extra time v Croatia we were very negative but against Denmark in this semi final we absolutely battered them in the first period of extra time and deservedly scored.
Like i said earlier i don't think this system that Southgate will persist with will enable us to kick on to the highest level.
It was a good tournament to watch with some sides playing good, fast attacking and fluid football, i just wish that England could of been one of them because if they had then we would of won it.
I agree it was a good tournament,
But I don’t agree we would have won it if we’d opened up more.
Germany would’ve picked us off like they did with Portugal, we had such a good tournament because we were so solid and difficult to beat.
Even in the final, Italy created hardly anything
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I think it’s a fairly lazy criticism nowadays to say our players aren’t technically gifted enough. Stones is a superb footballer (in the past it’s his defending and concentration that’s let him down but he seems to have largely ironed that out). Maguire is also excellent at bringing the ball out, as is Ben White who sat in reserve.
Declan Rice (22 years old and improving all the time) was arguably our best player in the final. Kalvin Phillips (25 years old and improving all the time) falls victim to lazy stereotypes from people that I can only assume have never watched him play. Mason Mount (22 years old) didn’t have a great tournament but he’s a very technically gifted midfielder.
Once our wingbacks were forced back, I’d agree that Italy began to get on top of the midfield battle and outnumber Rice and Phillips. Could Southgate have acted earlier? Perhaps so, but it’s very difficult to make these calls. Let’s not forget that he got so many of them right in the tournament, often by doing the opposite to popular opinion.
We’re all experts on here, and it’s the nature of any football fan to think they know best, but for all the criticism aimed at Southgate he’s steered us to a semi final and a final. Do we think that we’d have managed that had we ousted Southgate and deployed the tactical nous of the VSC forum? How many other nations can match our record in the last two major tournaments? We’re really not doing that badly are we.
Southgate is a smart guy. He’s pushed the team on after Russia, and I expect he’ll look back and reflect on this tournament and work out ways that we may be able to push further still. As dickos rightly says, that’s unlikely to involve shoe horning all our best / favourite players in, but I’d like to see a way of getting the likes of Grealish more involved in the game.
We still have an exciting future as this is a very young team with plenty of development in it. I think the manager is improving, too.
Nothing is ever perfect, other than our own opinions. But none of us could do a better job.
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I think it’s a fairly lazy criticism nowadays to say our players aren’t technically gifted enough. Stones is a superb footballer (in the past it’s his defending and concentration that’s let him down but he seems to have largely ironed that out). Maguire is also excellent at bringing the ball out, as is Ben White who sat in reserve.
Declan Rice (22 years old and improving all the time) was arguably our best player in the final. Kalvin Phillips (25 years old and improving all the time) falls victim to lazy stereotypes from people that I can only assume have never watched him play. Mason Mount (22 years old) didn’t have a great tournament but he’s a very technically gifted midfielder.
Once our wingbacks were forced back, I’d agree that Italy began to get on top of the midfield battle and outnumber Rice and Phillips. Could Southgate have acted earlier? Perhaps so, but it’s very difficult to make these calls. Let’s not forget that he got so many of them right in the tournament, often by doing the opposite to popular opinion.
We’re all experts on here, and it’s the nature of any football fan to think they know best, but for all the criticism aimed at Southgate he’s steered us to a semi final and a final. Do we think that we’d have managed that had we ousted Southgate and deployed the tactical nous of the VSC forum? How many other nations can match our record in the last two major tournaments? We’re really not doing that badly are we.
Southgate is a smart guy. He’s pushed the team on after Russia, and I expect he’ll look back and reflect on this tournament and work out ways that we may be able to push further still. As dickos rightly says, that’s unlikely to involve shoe horning all our best / favourite players in, but I’d like to see a way of getting the likes of Grealish more involved in the game.
We still have an exciting future as this is a very young team with plenty of development in it. I think the manager is improving, too.
Nothing is ever perfect, other than our own opinions. But none of us could do a better job.
It was the way we lost the final Jonathan that I find disappointing because as one or two including myself have pointed out it was a repeat of the Croatia semi final of three years ago .
Once you lose your grip on the game in the midfield area at this level you are dead in the water .
Gareth Southgate can say what he likes but in my opinion he just doesn't fancy Jack Grealish , yes he uses him but he doesn't trust him and that was rubber stamped when he subbed him against the Danes having come off the bench .
The thing is Jack Grealish is probably the nearest we have in this country to the kind of player you need in the midfield at the top level of international football .
I can almost guarantee that Jack would have started every single game for everyone of the 23 other competing nations at Euro 20 .
You simply cannot get the ball off Jack Grealish other than to foul him and by fouling him that means we keep possession of that football .
As I keep pointing out possesion is king at this level of football , you have the ball and you dictate the game and believe me its far easier on the energy levels to have that ball rather chasing around like we did against Croatia and Italy and chasing the likes of Modric , Verratti and Jorginho .
For half an hour in the first half of the semi final the Danish midfield ran us ragged and the only reason we got control back was because the Danes ran out of gas and didn't have the quality from the bench .
The Italians were never going to capitulate like the Danes did and neither did Croatia 3 years ago .
Don't get me wrong we aren't a bad side and we have some excellent players but in my opinion we are still not quite there to win a major international tournament and we won't be until we have the ability to keep that ball and control possession .
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All the keeping possession etc is irrelevant when it comes to a penalty shootout and that’s the only reason we lost.
A couple of penalties away from winning a major championship so how can you say we’re not ready to win one.
When we beat Croatia, the Czechs, Germany, Denmark, all the negative English who have been saying for years how bad we are state we only won because they’re not as good as they used to be or they were tired.
It’s utter nonsense, just be positive about the side and if we beat Germany say wow that’s a great result, don’t start saying it’s because they’re not very good anymore.
Croatia drew with Spain a couple of weeks later yet when we beat them they were a very bad Croatia Side
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All the keeping possession etc is irrelevant when it comes to a penalty shootout and that’s the only reason we lost.
A couple of penalties away from winning a major championship so how can you say we’re not ready to win one.
When we beat Croatia, the Czechs, Germany, Denmark, all the negative English who have been saying for years how bad we are state we only won because they’re not as good as they used to be or they were tired.
It’s utter nonsense, just be positive about the side and if we beat Germany say wow that’s a great result, don’t start saying it’s because they’re not very good anymore.
Croatia drew with Spain a couple of weeks later yet when we beat them they were a very bad Croatia Side
Once Italy equalised I was screaming for penalties and that's never right from an english football fan .
Yes Italy won on pens but they were undoubtedly the better team on the night and Croatia were convincing winners in the world cup semi final .
Yes there were positives from the tournament and we are a million miles from where we were in 2016 .
However you have to accept where the flaws are and the flaws are significant at this level and they find us out when it matters the most .
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All the keeping possession etc is irrelevant when it comes to a penalty shootout and that’s the only reason we lost.
A couple of penalties away from winning a major championship so how can you say we’re not ready to win one.
When we beat Croatia, the Czechs, Germany, Denmark, all the negative English who have been saying for years how bad we are state we only won because they’re not as good as they used to be or they were tired.
It’s utter nonsense, just be positive about the side and if we beat Germany say wow that’s a great result, don’t start saying it’s because they’re not very good anymore.
Croatia drew with Spain a couple of weeks later yet when we beat them they were a very bad Croatia Side
Once Italy equalised I was screaming for penalties and that's never right from an english football fan .
Yes Italy won on pens but they were undoubtedly the better team on the night and Croatia were convincing winners in the world cup semi final .
Yes there were positives from the tournament and we are a million miles from where we were in 2016 .
However you have to accept where the flaws are and the flaws are significant at this level and they find us out when it matters the most .
I was there and for the rest of the 90 mins you’re correct they were the better side.
But in extra time they were the side playing for penalties, we were the better side in extra time in my opinion.
But out of all the good sides we played only Italy scored against us in open play,
If we’d lost to any of the sides we beat everyone would be saying it’s the same old story but it wasn’t and nobody is acknowledging that
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All the keeping possession etc is irrelevant when it comes to a penalty shootout and that’s the only reason we lost.
A couple of penalties away from winning a major championship so how can you say we’re not ready to win one.
When we beat Croatia, the Czechs, Germany, Denmark, all the negative English who have been saying for years how bad we are state we only won because they’re not as good as they used to be or they were tired.
It’s utter nonsense, just be positive about the side and if we beat Germany say wow that’s a great result, don’t start saying it’s because they’re not very good anymore.
Croatia drew with Spain a couple of weeks later yet when we beat them they were a very bad Croatia Side
Once Italy equalised I was screaming for penalties and that's never right from an english football fan .
Yes Italy won on pens but they were undoubtedly the better team on the night and Croatia were convincing winners in the world cup semi final .
Yes there were positives from the tournament and we are a million miles from where we were in 2016 .
However you have to accept where the flaws are and the flaws are significant at this level and they find us out when it matters the most .
I was there and for the rest of the 90 mins you’re correct they were the better side.
But in extra time they were the side playing for penalties, we were the better side in extra time in my opinion.
But out of all the good sides we played only Italy scored against us in open play,
If we’d lost to any of the sides we beat everyone would be saying it’s the same old story but it wasn’t and nobody is acknowledging that
I was at a golf day today and was saying exactly the same thing when we spoke about the football.
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I think it’s a fairly lazy criticism nowadays to say our players aren’t technically gifted enough. Stones is a superb footballer (in the past it’s his defending and concentration that’s let him down but he seems to have largely ironed that out). Maguire is also excellent at bringing the ball out, as is Ben White who sat in reserve.
Declan Rice (22 years old and improving all the time) was arguably our best player in the final. Kalvin Phillips (25 years old and improving all the time) falls victim to lazy stereotypes from people that I can only assume have never watched him play. Mason Mount (22 years old) didn’t have a great tournament but he’s a very technically gifted midfielder.
Once our wingbacks were forced back, I’d agree that Italy began to get on top of the midfield battle and outnumber Rice and Phillips. Could Southgate have acted earlier? Perhaps so, but it’s very difficult to make these calls. Let’s not forget that he got so many of them right in the tournament, often by doing the opposite to popular opinion.
We’re all experts on here, and it’s the nature of any football fan to think they know best, but for all the criticism aimed at Southgate he’s steered us to a semi final and a final. Do we think that we’d have managed that had we ousted Southgate and deployed the tactical nous of the VSC forum? How many other nations can match our record in the last two major tournaments? We’re really not doing that badly are we.
Southgate is a smart guy. He’s pushed the team on after Russia, and I expect he’ll look back and reflect on this tournament and work out ways that we may be able to push further still. As dickos rightly says, that’s unlikely to involve shoe horning all our best / favourite players in, but I’d like to see a way of getting the likes of Grealish more involved in the game.
We still have an exciting future as this is a very young team with plenty of development in it. I think the manager is improving, too.
Nothing is ever perfect, other than our own opinions. But none of us could do a better job.
Good post mate. Hard to argue with any of that.
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We will never get a better opportunity than we had last Sunday night to win a major tournament .
We can dress this up how we want but we let it slip away .
I mean even in the penalties we should have succeeded , who the hell misses two penalties as Italy did and still gets over the line ?
Extremely frustrating night to say the least .
I was absolutely gutted , stunned when Rashford and Saka missed .
Pickford saves two pens and still doesn't pick up a winners medal !!!
Dear me .
If this was 1990 again or even 1996 maybe you could just brush it off but we've seen this so many times and I most certainly don't buy in to the " Penalties are a lottery " opinion .
They aren't because if they were the Germans would have lost 50% of their shoot outs and history tells us they've only ever lost one in their entire history .
Just when you think England can't find another way to lose a penalty shoot out they come up with something even more original .
Getting to a final wasn't enough for me , that's just me because getting to finals is incredibly difficult and we may not get another opportunity in my lifetime .
That's hard for me to take , it really is .
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We will never get a better opportunity than we had last Sunday night to win a major tournament .
We can dress this up how we want but we let it slip away .
I mean even in the penalties we should have succeeded , who the hell misses two penalties as Italy did and still gets over the line ?
Extremely frustrating night to say the least .
I was absolutely gutted , stunned when Rashford and Saka missed .
Pickford saves two pens and still doesn't pick up a winners medal !!!
Dear me .
If this was 1990 again or even 1996 maybe you could just brush it off but we've seen this so many times and I most certainly don't buy in to the " Penalties are a lottery " opinion .
They aren't because if they were the Germans would have lost 50% of their shoot outs and history tells us they've only ever lost one in their entire history .
Just when you think England can't find another way to lose a penalty shoot out they come up with something even more original .
Getting to a final wasn't enough for me , that's just me because getting to finals is incredibly difficult and we may not get another opportunity in my lifetime .
That's hard for me to take , it really is .
Everyone said in the World Cup we’d never get a better chance yet straight away in the next major tournament we’re there again and now people are saying once again we’ll never get a better chance.
Maybe we’re getting these chance because we’re a very good side.
We will be there or there abouts in the next World Cup too,
We’re a very good side now and we should be appreciating it and not slagging it off in the same way we would have done not getting out of the group.
We must be the most consistent side in Europe ober the last 5 years, nobody else made two semi finals
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We will never get a better opportunity than we had last Sunday night to win a major tournament .
We can dress this up how we want but we let it slip away .
I mean even in the penalties we should have succeeded , who the hell misses two penalties as Italy did and still gets over the line ?
Extremely frustrating night to say the least .
I was absolutely gutted , stunned when Rashford and Saka missed .
Pickford saves two pens and still doesn't pick up a winners medal !!!
Dear me .
If this was 1990 again or even 1996 maybe you could just brush it off but we've seen this so many times and I most certainly don't buy in to the " Penalties are a lottery " opinion .
They aren't because if they were the Germans would have lost 50% of their shoot outs and history tells us they've only ever lost one in their entire history .
Just when you think England can't find another way to lose a penalty shoot out they come up with something even more original .
Getting to a final wasn't enough for me , that's just me because getting to finals is incredibly difficult and we may not get another opportunity in my lifetime .
That's hard for me to take , it really is .
Everyone said in the World Cup we’d never get a better chance yet straight away in the next major tournament we’re there again and now people are saying once again we’ll never get a better chance.
Maybe we’re getting these chance because we’re a very good side.
We will be there or there abouts in the next World Cup too,
We’re a very good side now and we should be appreciating it and not slagging it off in the same way we would have done not getting out of the group.
We must be the most consistent side in Europe ober the last 5 years, nobody else made two semi finals
You'd imagine a final of a major tournament at Wembley would be hard to replicate in the " Next Time " conversation .
You get nowt for semi finals in this game .
My own club are still in the championship just as Derby County are .
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Of course you don’t get anything for semi finals, but as a means of measuring consistency in major tournaments we’re as good as anyone.
I agree it was a missed opportunity, I was there and it would’ve been up there with the best nights of my life if we’d won.
But if win somewhere else over the next ten years or so it’ll not mean anything less
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We will never get a better opportunity than we had last Sunday night to win a major tournament .
We can dress this up how we want but we let it slip away .
I mean even in the penalties we should have succeeded , who the hell misses two penalties as Italy did and still gets over the line ?
Extremely frustrating night to say the least .
I was absolutely gutted , stunned when Rashford and Saka missed .
Pickford saves two pens and still doesn't pick up a winners medal !!!
Dear me .
If this was 1990 again or even 1996 maybe you could just brush it off but we've seen this so many times and I most certainly don't buy in to the " Penalties are a lottery " opinion .
They aren't because if they were the Germans would have lost 50% of their shoot outs and history tells us they've only ever lost one in their entire history .
Just when you think England can't find another way to lose a penalty shoot out they come up with something even more original .
Getting to a final wasn't enough for me , that's just me because getting to finals is incredibly difficult and we may not get another opportunity in my lifetime .
That's hard for me to take , it really is .
England have lost 70% of penalty shootouts (hard luck stories) because they aren't good enough to see teams off in normal time...
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Not really true,
I mean against Portugal and Argentina they played all extra time and a good period of 90 minutes with ten men
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England have got some good players and Southgate has done well to perform as we have in the last two tournaments but if you’re playing Rice and Phillips against Jorginho/Verratti or Pogba/Kante, no matter how good your defence or your strikers are, 7 out of 10 times you’re going to lose. Labourers versus craftsmen.
KP, ‘the Yorkshire Pirlo’, Declan Rice, ‘the basmati Iniesta’, in what universe??? Marginally better than Eric Dier.
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You must be joking,
Phillips was a revelation in the tournament and has been recognised by many foreign ex superstars as one of the best players in the tournament.
Just because he plays for Leeds shouldn’t mean we can’t accept a very good player.
Leeds are going to find it difficult to keep hold of him
-
We will never get a better opportunity than we had last Sunday night to win a major tournament .
We can dress this up how we want but we let it slip away .
I mean even in the penalties we should have succeeded , who the hell misses two penalties as Italy did and still gets over the line ?
Extremely frustrating night to say the least .
I was absolutely gutted , stunned when Rashford and Saka missed .
Pickford saves two pens and still doesn't pick up a winners medal !!!
Dear me .
If this was 1990 again or even 1996 maybe you could just brush it off but we've seen this so many times and I most certainly don't buy in to the " Penalties are a lottery " opinion .
They aren't because if they were the Germans would have lost 50% of their shoot outs and history tells us they've only ever lost one in their entire history .
Just when you think England can't find another way to lose a penalty shoot out they come up with something even more original .
Getting to a final wasn't enough for me , that's just me because getting to finals is incredibly difficult and we may not get another opportunity in my lifetime .
That's hard for me to take , it really is .
Everyone said in the World Cup we’d never get a better chance yet straight away in the next major tournament we’re there again and now people are saying once again we’ll never get a better chance.
Maybe we’re getting these chance because we’re a very good side.
We will be there or there abouts in the next World Cup too,
We’re a very good side now and we should be appreciating it and not slagging it off in the same way we would have done not getting out of the group.
We must be the most consistent side in Europe ober the last 5 years, nobody else made two semi finals
And the Nations League!
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You don't get anything for reaching the semi finals though.
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You don't get anything for reaching the semi finals though.
Blows my mind that people think like this. Between 1966 and Southgate’s appointment, England have had the opportunity to play in 25 major international tournaments. They didn’t qualify for 7 of those, made the semi finals twice (8% of the time) and made the final a grand total of zero times. This was under 12 different managers (not including caretakers).
How is a semi final and a final in 2 major tournament appearances not progress after that record, regardless of whether any trophies were actually won?!
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You don't get anything for reaching the semi finals though.
Not daft you are ya
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You don't get anything for reaching the semi finals though.
Blows my mind that people think like this. Between 1966 and Southgate’s appointment, England have had the opportunity to play in 25 major international tournaments. They didn’t qualify for 7 of those, made the semi finals twice (8% of the time) and made the final a grand total of zero times. This was under 12 different managers (not including caretakers).
How is a semi final and a final in 2 major tournament appearances not progress after that record, regardless of whether any trophies were actually won?!
After a week to settle down above post puts it in real perspective. Considering we’re a nation who will always be able to put out a decent team that record is shocking and Southgate has done very well and should continue.
I said it at the time that the way we lost had similarities to Croatia, which it did in the way Italy just stepped up and we didn’t have a answer. However got to be a positive getting outplayed and not really looking like losing. Southgate will hopefully learn. He could have done things to change the game whether they’d work is another story but I don’t think you’d get this level of criticism for trying.
Key area to improve for the next WC is whenever a good team gets into a rhythm we have to stop it early. Foul’s, time wasting, keeping the ball better ourselves, players taking up a slightly different position, pressing hard even when it’s natural to drop, anything to change the game in our favour.
This will hopefully come with a bit more experience in the team
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You must be joking,
Phillips was a revelation in the tournament and has been recognised by many foreign ex superstars as one of the best players in the tournament.
Just because he plays for Leeds shouldn’t mean we can’t accept a very good player.
Leeds are going to find it difficult to keep hold of him
So you think he’s as good as Jorginho, Kante, Pogba and Verratti? Can he take the ball on the turn??? No, he’s a modern day David Batty, who wasn’t a bad player but....
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I never said that although on premier league performances he’s better than jorginho.
But you said he’s marginally better than dier which is like saying copps was marginally better than Chris black
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Phillips is streets ahead of Eric Dier.
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I never said that although on premier league performances he’s better than jorginho.
But you said he’s marginally better than dier which is like saying copps was marginally better than Chris black
Fair cop
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You must be joking,
Phillips was a revelation in the tournament and has been recognised by many foreign ex superstars as one of the best players in the tournament.
Just because he plays for Leeds shouldn’t mean we can’t accept a very good player.
Leeds are going to find it difficult to keep hold of him
This.
And I honestly think Declan Rice is going to be such a good player. He’s 22 and plays with a maturity way beyond that. In the final he showed he can handle the pressure on the very biggest stage and also showed he can drive a team forward (which some doubted he had in his game).
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You must be joking,
Phillips was a revelation in the tournament and has been recognised by many foreign ex superstars as one of the best players in the tournament.
Just because he plays for Leeds shouldn’t mean we can’t accept a very good player.
Leeds are going to find it difficult to keep hold of him
This.
And I honestly think Declan Rice is going to be such a good player. He’s 22 and plays with a maturity way beyond that. In the final he showed he can handle the pressure on the very biggest stage and also showed he can drive a team forward (which some doubted he had in his game).
:that: 100%