Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on October 19, 2021, 10:03:26 pm
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34 matches left. To hit 50 points, we need form something like:
W12 D7 L15.
It's not going to happen is it? Not on that second half capitulation? Out worked and out wanted by a very, very poor side.
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34 matches left. To hit 50 points, we need form something like:
W12 D7 L15.
It's not going to happen is it? Not on that second half capitulation? Out worked and out wanted by a very, very poor side.
It’s easy to out work us, we are incapable of stepping it up, I see no one in that team playing for the badge, I see no one geeing players up or getting angry when we concede, they are stealing a wage!
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We weren’t terrible tonight until we got to the final third. Knoyle had the great chance early on, he should have scored.
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So if we're doomed, what should be reaction? It clearly doesn't need to be kneejerk
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The most frustrating thing is that we played some half decent football in the first half. But we are so dreadfully lacking any punch at the end of it.
And I wrote the script at half time. Said to our kid that Evans would be tearing into them at that very moment, they'd come out with some fire in their bellies and we wouldn't be able to handle it. Exactly what happened. We are so, so short of anything resembling mesters in this side.
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People need to realise this is the start of a rebuild after a financially tough period.
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So if we're doomed, what should be reaction? It clearly doesn't need to be kneejerk
Don’t think you can stick with the person who has doomed us. No need to rush it but barring something miraculous it’s inevitable
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We weren’t terrible tonight until we got to the final third. Knoyle had the great chance early on, he should have scored.
But you sum it up Gaz. We WERE terrible in the final third. We ARE terrible in the final third, week after week. And you can't keep expecting full backs to score. So it doesn't matter how nicely we play for 45 minutes in the centre of the park. You know what is coming.
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People need to realise this is the start of a rebuild after a financially tough period.
Have they not had it tough in Accrington? Or Burton?
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It would need a Sam Alladyce type of LG1 level manager to come in and try and keep us up now BST.
Not sure they exist at our level! The dynamics are all heading due south and theres no evidence there'll be a change of course.
You really appreciate the good times when its like this.
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So if we're doomed, what should be reaction? It clearly doesn't need to be kneejerk
Don’t think you can stick with the person who has doomed us. No need to rush it but barring something miraculous it’s inevitable
Has the doom been brought by the manager, players, budget or non-standard hoops though?
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34 matches left. To hit 50 points, we need form something like:
W12 D7 L15.
It's not going to happen is it? Not on that second half capitulation? Out worked and out wanted by a very, very poor side.
It’s easy to out work us, we are incapable of stepping it up, I see no one in that team playing for the badge, I see no one geeing players up or getting angry when we concede, they are stealing a wage!
The team have a good mentor. Bogle is stealing a wage. That in itself undermines the whole squad ethos.
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People need to realise this is the start of a rebuild after a financially tough period.
But we should be doing better with the player we have (or budget we used) we are underperforming massively. Injuries are an excuse but still I can’t make an argument for been where we are.
Sure we’re a bottom half side but not rock bottom with much hope.
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When appointed Wellens said we'd play fast, attacking high press football.
What we've got is exactly the opposite.
The players he's signed are, for the most part nowhere near good enough for this league.
I just don't know where we go from here.
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I never quite get that argument that a managerial change would make no difference as its the same squad. Managers come in and massively change clubs fortunes. It happens at every level.
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When appointed Wellens said we'd play fast, attacking high press football.
What we've got is exactly the opposite.
The players he's signed are, for the most part nowhere near good enough for this league.
I just don't know where we go from here.
[/quote Rookie manager and low budget, lack of ambition from the board.
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Cannot be ignored that DM also had a part in our present problem.
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When appointed Wellens said we'd play fast, attacking high press football.
What we've got is exactly the opposite.
The players he's signed are, for the most part nowhere near good enough for this league.
I just don't know where we go from here.
You said it .. but it could take another 4-5-7 defeats before the penny will drop that Wellens can’t manage or motivate players only talk about it !!
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The way the bottom of L1 are playing only 45 points may be needed, just sayin'
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The way the bottom of L1 are playing only 45 points may be needed, just sayin'
Do you know how we’re going to get them ?
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The way the bottom of L1 are playing only 45 points may be needed, just sayin'
Do you know how we’re going to get them ?
Winning and drawing games is probably in the plan, somewhere
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We never, ever keep a clean sheet. This must be the worst defensive run we are on for decades. Even 97/98 had a better defensive record.
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We weren’t terrible tonight until we got to the final third. Knoyle had the great chance early on, he should have scored.
But you sum it up Gaz. We WERE terrible in the final third. We ARE terrible in the final third, week after week. And you can't keep expecting full backs to score. So it doesn't matter how nicely we play for 45 minutes in the centre of the park. You know what is coming.
any team would look terrible in the final third with the “forward” players we have
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0.66 PPG over the last 35 games. 28 goals for, 65 against.
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Cannot be ignored that DM also had a part in our present problem.
Why does everyone keep mentioning DM?? He’s been gone for nearly a year. I suggest we look closer to home
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Cannot be ignored that DM also had a part in our present problem.
Cukur
Dodoo
Dahlberg
Knoyle
Barlow
Olowu
Rowe
Close
Williams
Galbraith
Hiwula
Smith
Dodoo
All Wellens signings - this is HIS team. Budget friendly or not...it's his team.
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Cannot be ignored that DM also had a part in our present problem.
Why does everyone keep mentioning DM?? He’s been gone for nearly a year. I suggest we look closer to home
Tbf he made the January signings which not long after the rut set-in.
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This is next years team…… get over it!
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Cannot be ignored that DM also had a part in our present problem.
Cukur
Dodoo
Dahlberg
Knoyle
Barlow
Olowu
Rowe
Close
Williams
Galbraith
Hiwula
Smith
Dodoo
All Wellens signings - this is HIS team. Budget friendly or not...it's his team.
You just answered the statement you were trying to make!
A full squad that are learning each other’s names , without a preseason pretty much points to the obvious struggles
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I know theres a long sequence of disruption with DF, GMcC and DM leaving and none of that should be underestimated. I'm just not seeing any tiny green shoots that would suggest RW can turn this around. He has been very good at articulating what we should be aiming for. Remember all the regaining our attacking, high press style – 'The Donny identity' – but he's not got the gravitas, know how, skills or weight to translate that into results with this squad. It looks dead in the water to me.
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34 matches left. To hit 50 points, we need form something like:
W12 D7 L15.
It's not going to happen is it? Not on that second half capitulation? Out worked and out wanted by a very, very poor side.
It’s easy to out work us, we are incapable of stepping it up, I see no one in that team playing for the badge, I see no one geeing players up or getting angry when we concede, they are stealing a wage!
The team have a good mentor. Bogle is stealing a wage. That in itself undermines the whole squad ethos.
bogle is not stealing a wage thou he was signed on a contract and is willing to play wellens has chose not to play him and force him out, unless he can get the same wage or something that suits him why should he move on?
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Cannot be ignored that DM also had a part in our present problem.
I think i can safely say I'm not a fan of Mr Moore but we can't keep blaming him for this capitulation, RW had a virtually clean sheet to kick off with, managed to soil it with some old emulsion and a tin of manky magnolia found at the back of the shed.
Shocking scouting from his team of "talent spotters"
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Cannot be ignored that DM also had a part in our present problem.
Why does everyone keep mentioning DM?? He’s been gone for nearly a year. I suggest we look closer to home
But the shit he left is still here.
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Managers make decisions, he can’t go back on Bogle and Ed Williams unless they show a dramatic improvement in form in training and practice games.
It should never be personal, it’s all about the team.
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This is next years team…… get over it!
Bugger, we're double f**ked then!!!
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This is both unfair as it is across two seasons and not entirely representative as I’ve selected the period, but it is eye watering when you read this. Our last 28 league games have delivered 4 wins, 4 draws and 20 defeats. We’ve kept a grand total of 4 clean sheets. Of our four wins, three were by a single goal. This is truly terrible.
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This is both unfair as it is across two seasons and not entirely representative as I’ve selected the period, but it is eye watering when you read this. Our last 28 league games have delivered 4 wins, 4 draws and 20 defeats. We’ve kept a grand total of 4 clean sheets. Of our four wins, three were by a single goal. This is truly terrible.
Yet when this is pointed out, you are seen as negative and critical. We are drifting into league 2 and the club appears content with this, with no action being taken to arrest the malaise that has clearly set in. Instead we get fed the party line from Baldwin/wellens that it’s not the budget, it’s just luck/injuries etc etc.
Those responsible for blowing the budget on this shower shouldn’t be in a job. Where’s the ruthless streak from our supposed leaders??
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If the budget was …….(££££)
and we had to practically buy/procure yay amount of players …….. surely that would account for the quality of the players?
You can only buy what you can afford!
Some on here forget that our team was decimated and needed a quick fix to be able to get a preseason going……
“ i demand it now”generation, have the memories of fish!
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Let’s look at blowing the budget. Six young lads were signed before Richie arrived. Taylor was given a contract extension. Then we signed Close filled by Knoyle, Williams and Rowe. Those three were signed on lees than the players they replaced. Hiwula was signed but was he the first choice for left side or one that fitted our budget. We then find out we can’t sign our own keeper and defensive midfield player as they would cost more than we pay. So know we can’t sign anymore until two players leave and young players go out on loan. Start looking at Trialists although we don’t have funds to sign any. We bring in Smith and Cukur on loan. Start playing some preseason Friendlies. We sign two Trialists on not a lot of money. We bring in loan goalkeeper making sure he doesn’t cost to much. Then we have the farce of the transfer deadline we didn’t get the players we wanted money had been made available. We bring in Vilca that no one had seen play and sign Dodoo from the free market. Still Bogle and Williams are at the club on the playing budget.
So we’ve blown the budget. Can’t have been a big budget if we did. But we get what we pay for, the club have a long term view. So the scale of the problem is there for all to see. None of the front players would get in last years side but that’s what we could afford. We couldn’t replace Whiteman last season and certainly haven’t this season. The defence is not as good. We’ve been hoping Taylor and Okenbirhie would be fit. The season so far as been poor don’t see it changing as we will not get the players we need in January. So we will end up in league two were our budget will be a top half budget as Gavin said.
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Let’s look at blowing the budget. Six young lads were signed before Richie arrived. Taylor was given a contract extension. Then we signed Close filled by Knoyle, Williams and Rowe. Those three were signed on lees than the players they replaced. Hiwula was signed but was he the first choice for left side or one that fitted our budget. We then find out we can’t sign our own keeper and defensive midfield player as they would cost more than we pay. So know we can’t sign anymore until two players leave and young players go out on loan. Start looking at Trialists although we don’t have funds to sign any. We bring in Smith and Cukur on loan. Start playing some preseason Friendlies. We sign two Trialists on not a lot of money. We bring in loan goalkeeper making sure he doesn’t cost to much. Then we have the farce of the transfer deadline we didn’t get the players we wanted money had been made available. We bring in Vilca that no one had seen play and sign Dodoo from the free market. Still Bogle and Williams are at the club on the playing budget.
So we’ve blown the budget. Can’t have been a big budget if we did. But we get what we pay for, the club have a long term view. So the scale of the problem is there for all to see. None of the front players would get in last years side but that’s what we could afford. We couldn’t replace Whiteman last season and certainly haven’t this season. The defence is not as good. We’ve been hoping Taylor and Okenbirhie would be fit. The season so far as been poor don’t see it changing as we will not get the players we need in January. So we will end up in league two were our budget will be a top half budget as Gavin said.
And that in a nutshell sums up our current predicament…..well said!
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Let’s look at blowing the budget. Six young lads were signed before Richie arrived. Taylor was given a contract extension. Then we signed Close filled by Knoyle, Williams and Rowe. Those three were signed on lees than the players they replaced. Hiwula was signed but was he the first choice for left side or one that fitted our budget. We then find out we can’t sign our own keeper and defensive midfield player as they would cost more than we pay. So know we can’t sign anymore until two players leave and young players go out on loan. Start looking at Trialists although we don’t have funds to sign any. We bring in Smith and Cukur on loan. Start playing some preseason Friendlies. We sign two Trialists on not a lot of money. We bring in loan goalkeeper making sure he doesn’t cost to much. Then we have the farce of the transfer deadline we didn’t get the players we wanted money had been made available. We bring in Vilca that no one had seen play and sign Dodoo from the free market. Still Bogle and Williams are at the club on the playing budget.
So we’ve blown the budget. Can’t have been a big budget if we did. But we get what we pay for, the club have a long term view. So the scale of the problem is there for all to see. None of the front players would get in last years side but that’s what we could afford. We couldn’t replace Whiteman last season and certainly haven’t this season. The defence is not as good. We’ve been hoping Taylor and Okenbirhie would be fit. The season so far as been poor don’t see it changing as we will not get the players we need in January. So we will end up in league two were our budget will be a top half budget as Gavin said.
Few things from that Steve:
- Where's it been confirmed that Knoyle, Williams and Rowe are on less than the players they replaced?
- We've signed a dozen players one way or another. Within that there has presumably been plenty of money and or opportunity to sign a defensive midfielder of some description.
- Since Wellens said he'd have to move players out before he signed any more, we've signed players.
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Richie said in several interviews that they were less than the players they replaced.
He also said we couldn’t afford a defensive midfield player from the list of 15 players that the team had put together so he would have to wait. Since it was said we would have to wait for players to go out we signed Barlow and Gardner on low wages. We brought in two loans eventually after waiting to get the best deal we could. Then more money was made available to bring in Dodoo and Vilca.
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Trying to be objective.
I think the club have a fair enough budget to produce a side that at least should be able to compete and remain in this league.
I don't think we can ignore the state of the squad at the end of DMs tenure. It needed a complete overhaul. These are exceptional circumstances.
Richie was appointed through a rigorous system. His track record wasn't a bad one. Very few Rovers supporters were disapointed in his return.
RW had to build his squad under pressure. I don't know how many compromises had to be made but clearly compromises were made. And there been some spectacular public failures in the rebuild too.
So yes it is RWs squad but I'd argue it's far from being the finished article.
At this point, is it better to throw the dice, again, whilst we are still in the rebuild? And if we did that, could we expect to see any dramatic change?
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Steve,
I can't say I've picked up on the comments about Rowe etc before - have you a link to one of the interviews?
As for the defensive midfielder, again we've signed a dozen players, if it is/was a priority then they could have been signed in place of Close/Hiwula/Rowe/Galbraith or anyone else.
Since Wellens said we'd have to move people out, we've still managed to sign a number of players, including Dodoo on a permanent two-year deal.
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Rome wasn't built in a day or a few months for that matter. We are no longer a sacking club thankfully so I think RW will get time to turn this around. The writing was on the wall with our pathetic collapse in the second half of last season so I can't lay the blame wholly at RW's door.
That said things clearly need to improve, we need a couple of "misters" in the team, leaders who will drag us through tough games. I fully expect he'll be given the January transfer window to rectify this.
I remember O'Driscoll being called O'Dismal by plenty on here and he didn't really turn it round until Christmas in his first season? At least it's never dull being a Rovers fan :whistle:
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"Rome wasn't built in a day... But then again, I wasn't on the job!
Brian Howard Clough
Sorry, couldn't resist using that classic quote.
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I don’t even think we have a choice but to stick with Richie and hope he can turn it around.
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In life in general you get what you pay for. Maybe you can get the odd bargain along the way but they are few and far between. That's why people boast about them when they get one.
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Fair enough BB
But are you suggesting the Rovers budget was not big enough to build a side that could remain in this league?
Are you suggesting it was always a relegation budget?
Personally, I don't think it was.
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Fair enough BB
But are you suggesting the Rovers budget was not big enough to build a side that could remain in this league?
Are you suggesting it was always a relegation budget?
Personally, I don't think it was.
This 100%. Clearly it’s not a top 10 budget which is probably what was said over the summer but it’s enough to stay up comfortably. A lot of the players we signed permanently are established L1 players at the top end of the table.
If we factor the money Bogle and Williams are on we wound have a top half budget you’d think.
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We will have a bigger budget then potentially Plymouth, Burton, Accrington, Cheltenham, Wimbledon, Cambridge, Morecambe, Gillingham, Shrewsbury and Crewe.
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Vaya I haven’t got the links but it was said on Radio Sheffield interviews. That Knoyle Williams snd Rowe cost less than Halliday James and Butler.
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Vaya I haven’t got the links but it was said on Radio Sheffield interviews. That Knoyle Williams snd Rowe cost less than Halliday James and Butler.
To be fair I do recall Wellens saying this too. Think I read it in the DFP. I can't give a date but it will have been before the end of the transfer window. Of course, whether it's true or not, who knows.
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Vaya I haven’t got the links but it was said on Radio Sheffield interviews. That Knoyle Williams snd Rowe cost less than Halliday James and Butler.
To be fair I do recall Wellens saying this too. Think I read it in the DFP. I can't give a date but it will have been before the end of the transfer window. Of course, whether it's true or not, who knows.
I suppose it has to be taken at face value, although 'less' covers a multitude of outcomes, could be £3k, could be £3.
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Vaya I haven’t got the links but it was said on Radio Sheffield interviews. That Knoyle Williams snd Rowe cost less than Halliday James and Butler.
To be fair I do recall Wellens saying this too. Think I read it in the DFP. I can't give a date but it will have been before the end of the transfer window. Of course, whether it's true or not, who knows.
I suppose it has to be taken at face value, although 'less' covers a multitude of outcomes, could be £3k, could be £3.
This is also true. It's possible all of this talk could be some long game negotiating strategy by Wellens. Not sure it's a terribly successful one if so.
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Vaya I haven’t got the links but it was said on Radio Sheffield interviews. That Knoyle Williams snd Rowe cost less than Halliday James and Butler.
To be fair I do recall Wellens saying this too. Think I read it in the DFP. I can't give a date but it will have been before the end of the transfer window. Of course, whether it's true or not, who knows.
I suppose it has to be taken at face value, although 'less' covers a multitude of outcomes, could be £3k, could be £3.
No as you say how much less we don’t know as there are no facts. Same as the playing budget there are no facts how big or how small it is we have to take that at face value.
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RW please clear your desk
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RW please clear your desk
What about the others that were in the process and deciding what players we should go for with the right DNA.
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Who have you got lined up Upton?
BobG
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Unless anyone has factual information on this season's budget I'll take the view that the facts (as perfectly summarised by steve@dcfd) speak for themselves. Wellens had so much rebuilding to do with a substantially reduced budget that to cover the number of holes he had to spread the money extremely thin. He had to make compromises. Even with the questionable quality of player he was able to sign there are still areas of the squad that are thinner than we would like, making the injuries we've had even more telling.
As for criticising his failure to sign mature players, Wellens explained after the Ipswich game that his initial signings were based on building for the future, which was basically his remit from the club. He couldn't have known then the extent of the injury crisis that was going to happen.
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A fair few of the injuries seem to happen in training, is the training too intense? Could this also explain why we fade away as the game progresses
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A fair few of the injuries seem to happen in training, is the training too intense? Could this also explain why we fade away as the game progresses
I wonder when we will begin to see the benefit of Paul Green's input. Not a dig at all, I'm just aware that with health and fitness things don't change immediately
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We all know the budget wasn’t ideal but we can still assess how it has been spent, what positions were prioritised and the quality and attitude of the recruits v those we have released. It’s a judgement call but I am in the camp that we have not spent the budget wisely which would make me worry about trusting RW in the next window. If RW can turn it round in the next few weeks I would be delighted but if we are still in the same place by the end of November the board have a very big decision to make.
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It's a big ask but despite the scarey OP stats, we're a couple of wins from being thereabouts out of the relegation zone. It is possible but something needs to spark to switch us from the losing mentality. The manager is responsible for this.
At the start of the season we seemed disconnected, and that hasn't much changed. Yes we had little up front but it's more than that or at least it's become more than that. I don't see a passion, I don't see much of a team spirit, we seem lightweight, vulnerable.
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I was at Nuffield this morning for a swim.
Greeny was in there with all the first team squad doing runs up and down the pool.
Hope it helped.
Spoke to big Tom in the changing room. He's confident of a win on Saturday. Hope he's right.
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34 matches left. To hit 50 points, we need form something like:
W12 D7 L15.
It's not going to happen is it? Not on that second half capitulation? Out worked and out wanted by a very, very poor side.
Don’t you think part of the problem will be self evident on Saturday as an astute Manager Michael Duff has taken advantage of Gavin Baldwin’s ignorance of the need in retaining experience players on the books , we kept Copps for 16 years when over 250 players left, Williams Blair and May all productive players now producing for Cheltenham, what’s the odds that one of those ex players don’t have the last laugh !!
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I was at Nuffield this morning for a swim.
Greeny was in there with all the first team squad doing runs up and down the pool.
Hope it helped.
Spoke to big Tom in the changing room. He's confident of a win on Saturday. Hope he's right.
To be honest he's hardly gonna say "yeah we're shit, probs gonna get tonked lol" is he?
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Spoke to big Tom in the changing room.
Well, I suppose we know now why they call him 'big'.
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34 matches left. To hit 50 points, we need form something like:
W12 D7 L15.
It's not going to happen is it? Not on that second half capitulation? Out worked and out wanted by a very, very poor side.
Don’t you think part of the problem will be self evident on Saturday as an astute Manager Michael Duff has taken advantage of Gavin Baldwin’s ignorance of the need in retaining experience players on the books , we kept Copps for 16 years when over 250 players left, Williams Blair and May all productive players now producing for Cheltenham, what’s the odds that one of those ex players don’t have the last laugh !!
Anyone care to decipher this jumble of words?
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34 matches left. To hit 50 points, we need form something like:
W12 D7 L15.
It's not going to happen is it? Not on that second half capitulation? Out worked and out wanted by a very, very poor side.
Don’t you think part of the problem will be self evident on Saturday as an astute Manager Michael Duff has taken advantage of Gavin Baldwin’s ignorance of the need in retaining experience players on the books , we kept Copps for 16 years when over 250 players left, Williams Blair and May all productive players now producing for Cheltenham, what’s the odds that one of those ex players don’t have the last laugh !!
Anyone care to decipher this jumble of words?
I think he's saying we should keep every player we ever sign forever just in case.
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34 matches left. To hit 50 points, we need form something like:
W12 D7 L15.
It's not going to happen is it? Not on that second half capitulation? Out worked and out wanted by a very, very poor side.
Don’t you think part of the problem will be self evident on Saturday as an astute Manager Michael Duff has taken advantage of Gavin Baldwin’s ignorance of the need in retaining experience players on the books , we kept Copps for 16 years when over 250 players left, Williams Blair and May all productive players now producing for Cheltenham, what’s the odds that one of those ex players don’t have the last laugh !!
Anyone care to decipher this jumble of words?
I think he's saying we should keep every player we ever sign forever just in case.
Well it might have stopped Akinfenwa scoring against us last week if we'd kept him all those years ago.
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34 matches left. To hit 50 points, we need form something like:
W12 D7 L15.
It's not going to happen is it? Not on that second half capitulation? Out worked and out wanted by a very, very poor side.
Don’t you think part of the problem will be self evident on Saturday as an astute Manager Michael Duff has taken advantage of Gavin Baldwin’s ignorance of the need in retaining experience players on the books , we kept Copps for 16 years when over 250 players left, Williams Blair and May all productive players now producing for Cheltenham, what’s the odds that one of those ex players don’t have the last laugh !!
Anyone care to decipher this jumble of words?
I think he's saying we should keep every player we ever sign forever just in case.
Genius!
Why has no one else thought of the revolutionary idea :)
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The grey beards will remember that Ted Bates tried exactly that at Southampton many years ago. Didn't come to much. He got the sack!
BobG
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We will have a bigger budget then potentially Plymouth, Burton, Accrington, Cheltenham, Wimbledon, Cambridge, Morecambe, Gillingham, Shrewsbury and Crewe.
Bigger than Plymouth and Wimbledon, Plymouth are a very big club in this league with a big fan base, Wimbledon have moved “ back home” so will be attracting bigger crowds than previously