Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: bigbadjack on January 24, 2022, 03:55:44 pm
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Just heard Johnson describe the situation in Ukraine as “Painful,violent and bloody business” if the Russians invade….. this is terrifying isn’t it?
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If think Russia and China will invade Ukraine and Taiwan at the same time, and North Korea will be in on the act and possibly Iran
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And every time we turn the thermostat up, we are funding Putin's war machine. I thought he would invade over Xmas/New Year.
I see he's also got Naval manoeuvres off the Irish coast coming up.
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Just heard Johnson describe the situation in Ukraine as “Painful,violent and bloody business” if the Russians invade….. this is terrifying isn’t it?
Are you sure he wasn't talking about Sue Gray's inquiry??
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I can see the headline now.
Another party at no10 the night Russia invaded Ukraine.
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And every time we turn the thermostat up, we are funding Putin's war machine. I thought he would invade over Xmas/New Year.
I see he's also got Naval manoeuvres off the Irish coast coming up.
If he's going to do it, he's got to do it very soon, another month, the spring thaw sets in and the whole region becomes an impassable, deep, muddy quagmire. That's what did for Napoleon and Hitler.
I'm not sure what parking a load of old dreadnoughts in the Atlantic is all about either.
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If think Russia and China will invade Ukraine and Taiwan at the same time, and North Korea will be in on the act and possibly Iran
I'd be surprised. I think the US would play Ukraine like they did Afghanistan. Let them roll in and then fund a draining proxy war over the long term.
Taiwan I think is a different matter. I think the US is much more directly commited to that. Hence the link up with Australia.
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It's up to the West to keep out of the Russian sphere of influence. There's only one side causing this and it's not Russia.
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Ukraine is now a democratic country.
It is they who are wanting to decide their own future.
If Putin decides he wants to force them back into a Russian empire, I think he'll find he has a fight on his hands.
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Ukraine is now a democratic country.
It is they who are wanting to decide their own future.
If Putin decides he wants to force them back into a Russian empire, I think he'll find he has a fight on his hands.
It's the equivalent of having an independent Scotland having Russian military forces based there.
If the Ukraine is so democratic why did they feel the need for the EU backed revolution. The west should give Putin what he wants in return for a better deal on gas supplies, everyone's a winner.
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Ukraine is now a democratic country.
It is they who are wanting to decide their own future.
If Putin decides he wants to force them back into a Russian empire, I think he'll find he has a fight on his hands.
It's the equivalent of having an independent Scotland having Russian military forces based there.
If the Ukraine is so democratic why did they feel the need for the EU backed revolution. The west should give Putin what he wants in return for a better deal on gas supplies, everyone's a winner.
Everyone's a winner?
The Ukrainians aren't. I doubt the rest of Europe would be in the face of an emboldened dictator like Putin.
In this case its right to oppose the Russians, not directly but by funding and supporting Ukraine. Its always right to oppose dictators, fascists and communists, extremists of every hue because ultimately in doing so we're protecting our own interests.
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Ukraine is now a democratic country.
It is they who are wanting to decide their own future.
If Putin decides he wants to force them back into a Russian empire, I think he'll find he has a fight on his hands.
It's the equivalent of having an independent Scotland having Russian military forces based there.
If the Ukraine is so democratic why did they feel the need for the EU backed revolution. The west should give Putin what he wants in return for a better deal on gas supplies, everyone's a winner.
Everyone's a winner?
The Ukrainians aren't. I doubt the rest of Europe would be in the face of an emboldened dictator like Putin.
In this case its right to oppose the Russians, not directly but by funding and supporting Ukraine. Its always right to oppose dictators, fascists and communists, extremists of every hue because ultimately in doing so we're protecting our own interests.
So you think it's ok to antagonize the bear by parking NATO on their front door step?
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I think it's right to protect the borders in the face of a Russian military build-up.
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As I heard pn the radio
He got away with annexing The Crimea
A "weak" PONTUS politically speaking
Nato not singing out of the same hymn book
Gas supplies
The time is right for Putin to chance his arm and test the water
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Ukraine is now a democratic country.
It is they who are wanting to decide their own future.
If Putin decides he wants to force them back into a Russian empire, I think he'll find he has a fight on his hands.
It's the equivalent of having an independent Scotland having Russian military forces based there.
If the Ukraine is so democratic why did they feel the need for the EU backed revolution. The west should give Putin what he wants in return for a better deal on gas supplies, everyone's a winner.
Everyone's a winner?
The Ukrainians aren't. I doubt the rest of Europe would be in the face of an emboldened dictator like Putin.
In this case its right to oppose the Russians, not directly but by funding and supporting Ukraine. Its always right to oppose dictators, fascists and communists, extremists of every hue because ultimately in doing so we're protecting our own interests.
So you think it's ok to antagonize the bear by parking NATO on their front door step?
How is Ukraine wanting to be a free and democratic state antagonising the Bear, they should be able to freely negotiate treaties with whoever they want without the Bear sticking their oar in, what does Putin really fear from NATO, which is a defensive organisation?
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Let’s have a big bloody battle, get some of this hardware tested and redefine the landmass , my mk10 is being soaked in warm suds as I type…..too much blm,snowflake and PC has weakened the minds………probably won’t get the call! Lol
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The US are considering taking out the same actions they did to Huawei and invoking the the foreign direct product rule into supply contracts that require the buyer to enforce US export control:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/01/23/russia-ukraine-sanctions-export-controls/
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Putin has nothing to offer the Russian people but a vision of a historic Greater Russia like they had under Stalin or Peter the Great.
You can see the sort of folk he pitched it at because we have some here. Doesn't matter how shit your life is as long as you're better than some other bas**rd.
So he's sabre rattling. Seeing if the West had resolution to stand up, or whether it will slunk off and let him extend his control.
The West certainly won't send fighters to Ukraine. But if Putin goes in, we will smash his economy. And then it really could get nasty if he ups the ante and heads for Estonia.
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I like the sound of an overhaul of Companies House to root out Foreign investment in the uk via the use of shell Companies.
Mind you, that would cause some chaos too, as most high level organised crime in the uk use this too.
Large swathes of the most expensive real estate in London is owned by Russian Oligarchs.but they have their fingers in govts pies no doubt too.
Too many people in too many positions of power stand too much to lose for this to happen.
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I wonder what our Russian representative in the House of Lords thinks of all this?
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We've become infested by influential Russian kleptocrats. I don't know how you start clearing the stable.
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The first lesson is have a fully independent fuel supply and don't be reliant on others, we were once the only country in western Europe with an excess of power with oil, natural gas and oil.
The greens have had their way, we are now s existing with a large proportion of the population in fuel poverty, and prices being forced up by the market.
Meanwhile and sit down lads China have just produced another record months coal output at Over 374 million tons in December a year on year increase of 7.8% and increasing.
And still the thicko's in this country will sit in the road, but I notice not while they are cold and damp best wait until at least spring.
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The first lesson is have a fully independent fuel supply and don't be reliant on others, we were once the only country in western Europe with an excess of power with oil, natural gas and oil.
The greens have had their way, we are now s existing with a large proportion of the population in fuel poverty, and prices being forced up by the market.
Meanwhile and sit down lads China have just produced another record months coal output at Over 374 million tons in December a year on year increase of 7.8% and increasing.
And still the thicko's in this country will sit in the road, but I notice not while they are cold and damp best wait until at least spring.
I just can't get my head around the mind set of these self righteous 'WOKE twits who find it amusing to disrupt the economy and think it's a joke, they need to take some positive action against the two mega Polluters China 27% of all world Pollution and The USA 11% of total world pollution. The 'WOKES' need to put their shoulders to the Cart and take on the real problem polluters.
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The first lesson is have a fully independent fuel supply and don't be reliant on others, we were once the only country in western Europe with an excess of power with oil, natural gas and oil.
The greens have had their way, we are now s existing with a large proportion of the population in fuel poverty, and prices being forced up by the market.
Meanwhile and sit down lads China have just produced another record months coal output at Over 374 million tons in December a year on year increase of 7.8% and increasing.
And still the thicko's in this country will sit in the road, but I notice not while they are cold and damp best wait until at least spring.
I just can't get my head around the mind set of these self righteous 'WOKE twits who find it amusing to disrupt the economy and think it's a joke, they need to take some positive action against the two mega Polluters China 27% of all world Pollution and The USA 11% of total world pollution. The 'WOKES' need to put their shoulders to the Cart and take on the real problem polluters.
Is a slow boat to China on their agenda then.
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What would happen if Russia invades the Ukraine? - A lengthy study of some of the options and scenarios
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ukraine/2022-01-21/day-after-russia-attacks
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The first lesson is have a fully independent fuel supply and don't be reliant on others, we were once the only country in western Europe with an excess of power with oil, natural gas and oil.
The greens have had their way, we are now s existing with a large proportion of the population in fuel poverty, and prices being forced up by the market.
Meanwhile and sit down lads China have just produced another record months coal output at Over 374 million tons in December a year on year increase of 7.8% and increasing.
And still the thicko's in this country will sit in the road, but I notice not while they are cold and damp best wait until at least spring.
I just can't get my head around the mind set of these self righteous 'WOKE twits who find it amusing to disrupt the economy and think it's a joke, they need to take some positive action against the two mega Polluters China 27% of all world Pollution and The USA 11% of total world pollution. The 'WOKES' need to put their shoulders to the Cart and take on the real problem polluters.
the forum thinking person's go-to list
https://www.campaigncc.org/climate_change/sceptics/hall_of_shame
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It seems like an uneven fight if you compare the military might of Russia against that of the Ukraine.
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-vs-ukraine-military/31664931.html
However, the injection of ammunition, weapons, and other military supplies into the Ukraine are not unsubstantial and Russia would be wise not to underestimate the determination to fight within the Ukraine... After all of this dick-waving it may just turn out to be Putin man-spreading to let everyone know that Russia still has clout....... let's hope so.
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It seems like an uneven fight if you compare the military might of Russia against that of the Ukraine.
https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-vs-ukraine-military/31664931.html
However, the injection of ammunition, weapons, and other military supplies into the Ukraine are not unsubstantial and Russia would be wise not to underestimate the determination to fight within the Ukraine... After all of this dick-waving it may just turn out to be Putin man-spreading to let everyone know that Russia still has clout....... let's hope so.
So Boris Has been daft enough to 'Poke the Bear' as a consequence the Russian Navy will be staging a live firing excercise 150 miles off the Coast of Eire, they can and will do it, Eire is not a member of NATO and its fishery protection Sqadron of tubs are useless, plus the two or three pre millennium Helicopters are not up to it!
Dem Der Ship launched Cruise missiles have a 600 mile range, so that's GCHQ and London both nicely in range.
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I see the US is concerned that there is too much Russian money in and washing through Londongrad that sanctions against the main players in Moscow won't have much effect.
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Johnson going to have a chat with Putin, war it is then!
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Johnson going to have a chat with Putin, war it is then!
I doubt Uncle Vlad gives a toss what that gibbering idiot has to say. Hopefully he'll get the FSB to do us all a favour.
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Johnson going to have a chat with Putin, war it is then!
I doubt Uncle Vlad gives a toss what that gibbering idiot has to say. Hopefully he'll get the FSB to do us all a favour.
I think even CDH would approve ‘that’ jab.
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This isn’t looking good, bloody scary to be honest.
General consensus from what I’m reading on twitter is that an invasion will happen within days.
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Johnson going to have a chat with Putin, war it is then!
I doubt Uncle Vlad gives a toss what that gibbering idiot has to say. Hopefully he'll get the FSB to do us all a favour.
I think even CDH would approve ‘that’ jab.
Haha. Just seen your post Colin C No.3 :lol:
On Ukraine. I have to admit to being ignorant about world affairs and just wondered (in laymans terms please if you could) what does it mean to us in the UK if Russia do invade Ukraine? And the wider world?
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Johnson going to have a chat with Putin, war it is then!
I doubt Uncle Vlad gives a toss what that gibbering idiot has to say. Hopefully he'll get the FSB to do us all a favour.
I think even CDH would approve ‘that’ jab.
Haha. Just seen your post Colin C No.3 :lol:
On Ukraine. I have to admit to being ignorant about world affairs and just wondered (in laymans terms please if you could) what does it mean to us in the UK if Russia do invade Ukraine? And the wider world?
Another big jump in the price of gas and petrol is likely. That, I think would be the most immediate impact on the UK. Possibly even blackouts if the Russians cut gas supplies to Western Europe.
The west won't engage Russia in a direct conflict. As in Afghanistan when the Russians invaded, the west will supply the Ukraine resistance with weapons to fight a proxy war.
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Get ready for a massive cyber attack blamed on Russia.
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Get ready for a massive cyber attack blamed on Russia.
Instead of blaming it on?
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Let remember that 130,000 Russian troops poised to invade and Abbott and Corbyn blame the US and the UK. And there are people on here who would have elected them as the leader and foreign secretary. Thank God the British electorate saw sense
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Let remember that 130,000 Russian troops poised to invade and Abbott and Corbyn blame the US and the UK. And there are people on here who would have elected them as the leader and foreign secretary. Thank God the British electorate saw sense
I fully agree with your comments on Corbyn and Abbott, and have been saying so for years.
However, at the last election, we put into No10 a man who has deliberately refused to investigate direct Russian interference in our own democratic processes.
I said at the time that the choice between Corbyn and Johnson was the worst one in generations, with nether of them fit to be in charge of foreign policy.
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12 countries from around the World have now told their people in Ukraine to leave now.
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Let's face it he will invade Ukraine possible by the middle of next week, He already has stated about the nuclear weapons they have ,It's scary times ahead , we cannot and will not put the army in Ukraine as then he has a reason to blame someone as the reason he sent in army
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Here what I think will,happen.
If Russia invades Ukraine, NATO countries will be up in arms. There will be sabre rattling and sanctions. But NATO will not go toe to toe with Russia. Because no one wins this conflict. Like Afghan with no end game. Utter carnage. Human loss on a biblical scale.
Ukraine will be seen as an acceptable loss. And NATO will park it’s armies once again across the bordering countries. The British Army will go back to Germany, which we should have never left.
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Economic sanctions would never work on the Russians, they have now underpinned so much real estate and finance in London that the west would fail because our Government would allow the oligarchs all the leeway they would want to bypass all sanctions.
We talk the talk but never walk the walk. Our present incompetent incumbent would never allow it.
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The UK withdraws some staff from the embassy in Ukraine.
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You have to give credit to Putin for his long term strategy.
He massively undermined American resilience by getting the orange madman into the White House.
He massively weakened the EU by helping ensure we left, and fomenting anti-EU opinion in Germany, Italy, France, Netherlands, Hungary etc through financing far-right parties.
He's spent a decade getting the Tory party in his pay through the kleptocrats of Londongrad.
He's wanted a show of strength against Ukraine for 20 years, but he's bided his time while quietly undermining the resistance and will of the West. Now he will unleash the tanks in Europe for the first time in 75 years and bring Ukraine to heel. And there is very little we can do about it.
But the real worry comes when he next turns to the Baltic States. Because if we do nothing about that, NATO is a busted flush and he will quickly impose Russia on the whole of Eastern Europe.
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Maybe and hopefully its a maybe, this is all just posturing.
They have 100 000 on the border. For years we have been conducting 'training' exercises in places like Estonia, Poland etc etc.
With some being ex Soviet states it's possible to see why they wouldn't like it. And maybe Ukraine don't need to join NATO.
A lot of accusations both ways, and little listening going on both ways also.
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To have wider ambitions in Eastern Europe Putin will first have to subdue Ukraine.
If he tries it, I have a feeling he will find he's in for a long, expensive and bloody grind.
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Putin is a relic of the old KGB and hankers back to the Soviet era, the Russian people can have a big say in what happens by protesting, I know the state Police will get violent towards them, but change has to happen somewhere
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Putin is a relic of the old KGB and hankers back to the Soviet era, the Russian people can have a big say in what happens by protesting, I know the state Police will get violent towards them, but change has to happen somewhere
If Putin does go in, he's taking a big risk in my opinion. A major unpopular war may not go down so well back home. He would need a swift success.
There has been popular unrest in Belarus and Khazakstan. The economic problems aren't only affecting the west.
War is a massive gamble I think.
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This is a depressingly accurate summary of how badly the West had mismanaged its relationship with the spivs and gangsters in the Kremlin.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2022/02/lavrov-russia-diplomacy-ukraine/622075/?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=share
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Putin undermines everyone because he doesn’t care
I imagine he’s losing loads of sleep after being told he shouldn’t invade Ukraine but even if you do we won’t back them up we will just keep telling you to leave and make veiled threats of economical sanctions that can’t be realistically implemented because of the way other countries have allowed the Russians to invest in their infrastructure
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Yep. Bit like with China.
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A couple of typhoon euro fighters flew low over our house yesterday. Bloody loud, they were going a fair old lick. Not a usual occurance. I wonder if there were Russians around the channel or something.
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A couple of typhoon euro fighters flew low over our house yesterday. Bloody loud, they were going a fair old lick. Not a usual occurance. I wonder if there were Russians around the channel or something.
Are you sure they were RAF? It was Sunday yesterday after all!
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A couple of typhoon euro fighters flew low over our house yesterday. Bloody loud, they were going a fair old lick. Not a usual occurance. I wonder if there were Russians around the channel or something.
Are you sure they were RAF? It was Sunday yesterday after all!
Think so, they do train in this area, normally you don't see them, they are so high up.
Going low over the houses is unusual. Perhaps it being a Sunday morning suggests it was something out of the ordinary too. Didn't think of that.
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I remember the two Typhoons creating the sonic booms one evening a few years ago, I thought something had exploded in the street
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Not all RAF knock off early on a Friday.
If they're flying on a Sunday could be Quick Reaction Alert (QRA) who deal with unidentified aircraft.
Could be training also.
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Don’t they get a medal for flying over the channel ?
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The Ukraine is just a jousting tool between Russia who are once again feeling their feet again and China in the background waiting to join with them with the Taiwan situation.
Successive Western Governments have let the situation and the Russians especially manoeuvre into position over the last decade, aided by their fascination of the Green Lobby, I wonder what Greta thinks to this lot, she is noticeable by her absence but is probably while we speak writing a speech to broadcast to the world how polluting tanks are
The Eu is the weak link in all this with a fractured stance when shove comes to push. The Eastern states have the most to lose Hungary and Poland not at the moment getting what they are in it for, Germany are now a nanny state losing their grip economically, their population fed up of bailing out others financially, and Macron is trying to manoeuvre France into the lead position, a country who have not won a war for hundreds of years so god help them, and basically all the lot and ourselves included are the vassals to the USA for protection.
Meanwhile our armed forces such as they are are the first lot the EU turn to again when they want something dirty doing while old Gerry hides behind their appeasement since the last war and the French no doubt will be going about trying to flog anyone with a bit of wonga as many arms as they want while talking a good fight themselves but get ready for that to last only a couple of days if the fat hits the fan.
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This has all been forced by the West wanting to stand on the Russian border waving their toys around. If for one minute people tried to look at this from the Russian point of view they could see who the real aggressors are.
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There is one thing certain, you might get 27 countries agreeing on the size and price of duck eggs, but if the sh*t hits the fan on this one watch them look after themselves and b******s to the others, and unlike some on here Putin knows it.
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A couple of typhoon euro fighters flew low over our house yesterday. Bloody loud, they were going a fair old lick. Not a usual occurance. I wonder if there were Russians around the channel or something.
Nothing about a QRA on MOD news - although there is a joint exercise with the EU and USAF just starting. A US Bomber Task Force moved into Fairford last week (and 'bombed' Skegness on the way if you look at the maps in the second link)
https://www.raf.mod.uk/news/articles/raf-welcomes-back-us-bomber-task-force-to-europe/
https://www.gloucestershirelive.co.uk/news/regional-news/raf-fairford-live-american-b-6632491
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NATO has zero intention of attacking Russia, and nothing to gain but Armageddon by doing so.
What NATO has done, is to provide a shield around countries that have regularly been pulverised by Russia. NATO has done that at the request of those countries.
Let's not allow our resident fascists and Putin arse-lickers to muddy the waters here. There is only ONE side threatening aggression in this whole issue. And it ain't NATO. Putin wants to exert Russia's authority over states that have never wanted that and do not now want that. Support that if you like, but don't dress it up as something more noble than it is. It is the bully wanting to exert his authority to bully.
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The ability of EU-haters to hold two totally contradictory stances at the same time and not even realise how stupid that makes them sound never ceases to amaze me.
1) The EU wants a common foreign policy and an EU army and that is unacceptable.
2) The EU doesn't have a common foreign policy or the ability to use armed force and that shows how f**king useless it is.
This is what years of having your ideas formed by Mike Graham's warm diarrhea does.
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The ability of EU-haters to hold two totally contradictory stances at the same time and not even realise how stupid that makes them sound never ceases to amaze me.
1) The EU wants a common foreign policy and an EU army and that is unacceptable.
2) The EU doesn't have a common foreign policy or the ability to use armed force and that shows how f**king useless it is.
This is what years of having your ideas formed by Mike Graham's warm diarrhea does.
As President Macron went to great lengths to explain to Putin last week NATO is a defensive force, Ukraine is not in NATO if Russian annex’s the Ukraine what has it to do with Nato
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Should the allied forces want to kick back against any invasion, they would not need any troops on the ground. The soviet armoured vehicles could be taken out using nothing more than drone strikes. Of which the allied forces have the upper hand on the Russians. They may have alot of tanks, but we have a lot of drones collectively. And bombs to strap to them.
It will be interesting to see if there is an invasion, if selective Russian targets are taken out on Ukraine soil by allies of Ukraine.
There is a difference between defending Ukraine on their own soil, and attacking Russia on its.
The Russians have been playing a similar game in Syria for a long long time.
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Should the allied forces want to kick back against any invasion, they would not need any troops on the ground. The soviet armoured vehicles could be taken out using nothing more than drone strikes. Of which the allied forces have the upper hand on the Russians. They may have alot of tanks, but we have a lot of drones collectively. And bombs to strap to them.
It will be interesting to see if there is an invasion, if selective Russian targets are taken out on Ukraine soil by allies of Ukraine.
There is a difference between defending Ukraine on their own soil, and attacking Russia on its.
The Russians have been playing a similar game in Syria for a long long time.
I wouldn't want to be in the vicinity of Cheltenham when that happens.
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NATO has zero intention of attacking Russia, and nothing to gain but Armageddon by doing so.
What NATO has done, is to provide a shield around countries that have regularly been pulverised by Russia. NATO has done that at the request of those countries.
Let's not allow our resident fascists and Putin arse-lickers to muddy the waters here. There is only ONE side threatening aggression in this whole issue. And it ain't NATO. Putin wants to exert Russia's authority over states that have never wanted that and do not now want that. Support that if you like, but don't dress it up as something more noble than it is. It is the bully wanting to exert his authority to bully.
What a load of horse shit.
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Should the allied forces want to kick back against any invasion, they would not need any troops on the ground. The soviet armoured vehicles could be taken out using nothing more than drone strikes. Of which the allied forces have the upper hand on the Russians. They may have alot of tanks, but we have a lot of drones collectively. And bombs to strap to them.
It will be interesting to see if there is an invasion, if selective Russian targets are taken out on Ukraine soil by allies of Ukraine.
There is a difference between defending Ukraine on their own soil, and attacking Russia on its.
The Russians have been playing a similar game in Syria for a long long time.
I wouldn't want to be in the vicinity of Cheltenham when that happens.
Or raf waddington.
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Should the allied forces want to kick back against any invasion, they would not need any troops on the ground. The soviet armoured vehicles could be taken out using nothing more than drone strikes. Of which the allied forces have the upper hand on the Russians. They may have alot of tanks, but we have a lot of drones collectively. And bombs to strap to them.
It will be interesting to see if there is an invasion, if selective Russian targets are taken out on Ukraine soil by allies of Ukraine.
There is a difference between defending Ukraine on their own soil, and attacking Russia on its.
The Russians have been playing a similar game in Syria for a long long time.
Russia still occupies the Ukranian territory it invaded 8 years ago. The military response to any similar invasion will be exactly the same now as it was then.
And I am not going to hold my breath to Johnson imposing the sanctions on the Tories Russian donors that the rest of the NATO allies want.
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NATO has zero intention of attacking Russia, and nothing to gain but Armageddon by doing so.
What NATO has done, is to provide a shield around countries that have regularly been pulverised by Russia. NATO has done that at the request of those countries.
Let's not allow our resident fascists and Putin arse-lickers to muddy the waters here. There is only ONE side threatening aggression in this whole issue. And it ain't NATO. Putin wants to exert Russia's authority over states that have never wanted that and do not now want that. Support that if you like, but don't dress it up as something more noble than it is. It is the bully wanting to exert his authority to bully.
What a load of horse shit.
Do you want to expand on why you came to that conclusion? Over and above the fact that you are a fascist who idolises Putin?
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Should the allied forces want to kick back against any invasion, they would not need any troops on the ground. The soviet armoured vehicles could be taken out using nothing more than drone strikes. Of which the allied forces have the upper hand on the Russians. They may have alot of tanks, but we have a lot of drones collectively. And bombs to strap to them.
It will be interesting to see if there is an invasion, if selective Russian targets are taken out on Ukraine soil by allies of Ukraine.
There is a difference between defending Ukraine on their own soil, and attacking Russia on its.
The Russians have been playing a similar game in Syria for a long long time.
Russia still occupies the Ukranian territory it invaded 8 years ago. The military response to any similar invasion will be exactly the same now as it was then.
And I am not going to hold my breath to Johnson imposing the sanctions on the Tories Russian donors that the rest of the NATO allies want.
Hasn't Johnson saod today ot will be very difficult to apply all the mentioned financial penalties on Russia? Wonder if his friend in The HoL is putting pressure on?
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Should the allied forces want to kick back against any invasion, they would not need any troops on the ground. The soviet armoured vehicles could be taken out using nothing more than drone strikes. Of which the allied forces have the upper hand on the Russians. They may have alot of tanks, but we have a lot of drones collectively. And bombs to strap to them.
It will be interesting to see if there is an invasion, if selective Russian targets are taken out on Ukraine soil by allies of Ukraine.
There is a difference between defending Ukraine on their own soil, and attacking Russia on its.
The Russians have been playing a similar game in Syria for a long long time.
I wouldn't want to be in the vicinity of Cheltenham when that happens.
Or raf waddington.
I thought RAF Waddington had closed down?
Or am I confusing it with RAF Scampton?
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NATO has zero intention of attacking Russia, and nothing to gain but Armageddon by doing so.
What NATO has done, is to provide a shield around countries that have regularly been pulverised by Russia. NATO has done that at the request of those countries.
Let's not allow our resident fascists and Putin arse-lickers to muddy the waters here. There is only ONE side threatening aggression in this whole issue. And it ain't NATO. Putin wants to exert Russia's authority over states that have never wanted that and do not now want that. Support that if you like, but don't dress it up as something more noble than it is. It is the bully wanting to exert his authority to bully.
What a load of horse shit.
So let me get this right; you wanted out the EU so that the UK could have its sovereignty, be self governing and avoid future immigration but you’re more than happy for Ukraine not to have theirs and for Russians to invade their country en mass? What a weird view of the world you have.
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Should the allied forces want to kick back against any invasion, they would not need any troops on the ground. The soviet armoured vehicles could be taken out using nothing more than drone strikes. Of which the allied forces have the upper hand on the Russians. They may have alot of tanks, but we have a lot of drones collectively. And bombs to strap to them.
It will be interesting to see if there is an invasion, if selective Russian targets are taken out on Ukraine soil by allies of Ukraine.
There is a difference between defending Ukraine on their own soil, and attacking Russia on its.
The Russians have been playing a similar game in Syria for a long long time.
I wouldn't want to be in the vicinity of Cheltenham when that happens.
Or raf waddington.
RAF Waddington is where most of the RAF intel assets are based, AWACS and the like.
I thought RAF Waddington had closed down?
Or am I confusing it with RAF Scampton?
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A couple of typhoon euro fighters flew low over our house yesterday. Bloody loud, they were going a fair old lick. Not a usual occurance. I wonder if there were Russians around the channel or something.
Are you sure they were RAF? It was Sunday yesterday after all!
What other country could they have been from though?
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A couple of typhoon euro fighters flew low over our house yesterday. Bloody loud, they were going a fair old lick. Not a usual occurance. I wonder if there were Russians around the channel or something.
Are you sure they were RAF? It was Sunday yesterday after all!
What other country could they have been from though?
Italy, Germany, Spain to name a few. It was a multinational design.
More than likely an RAF aircraft, and either on training or Quick Reaction Alert.
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Should the allied forces want to kick back against any invasion, they would not need any troops on the ground. The soviet armoured vehicles could be taken out using nothing more than drone strikes. Of which the allied forces have the upper hand on the Russians. They may have alot of tanks, but we have a lot of drones collectively. And bombs to strap to them.
It will be interesting to see if there is an invasion, if selective Russian targets are taken out on Ukraine soil by allies of Ukraine.
There is a difference between defending Ukraine on their own soil, and attacking Russia on its.
The Russians have been playing a similar game in Syria for a long long time.
I wouldn't want to be in the vicinity of Cheltenham when that happens.
Or raf waddington.
I thought RAF Waddington had closed down?
Or am I confusing it with RAF Scampton?
Scampton is going. Making way for housing unfortunately.
A shame considering it's historical significance, with the Dambusters.
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Confirmed. Scampton is finished.
RAF Waddington is the major uk base for Unmanned Systems though.
They have a brand new Electronic Warefare facility there. Well, it’s been there a few years actually.
13 Sqn RAF are based there (ex tornado sqn) Which is A Reaper Drone unit now.
Most uk drone ops in Afghan were run from there. Or 39 sqn RAF which is based in the Nevada desert just a few clicks north of Vegas. A detachment with USAF.
By the end of this year, the Red Arrows will be rehoused at Waddington too.
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Interesting. Russia is pulling troops away from the border.
Looks like a very sensible win for Putin.
1) The West has made it clear it would t fight for Ukraine.
2) The West has made is clear it BELIEVED Putin would go to war.
3) It's clear that Ukraine will now not be joining NATO.
4) Not a shot fired.
Putin strengthened. West weakened.
The real concern comes if he now tries this in the Baltic States.
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Interesting. Russia is pulling troops away from the border.
Looks like a very sensible win for Putin.
1) The West has made it clear it would t fight for Ukraine.
2) The West has made is clear it BELIEVED Putin would go to war.
3) It's clear that Ukraine will now not be joining NATO.
4) Not a shot fired.
Putin strengthened. West weakened.
The real concern comes if he now tries this in the Baltic States.
Double bluff?
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It would be costing Russia quite a bit to maintain 100k+ troops where they are, fingers crossed it is a genuine withdrawal
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Interesting. Russia is pulling troops away from the border.
Looks like a very sensible win for Putin.
1) The West has made it clear it would t fight for Ukraine.
2) The West has made is clear it BELIEVED Putin would go to war.
3) It's clear that Ukraine will now not be joining NATO.
4) Not a shot fired.
Putin strengthened. West weakened.
The real concern comes if he now tries this in the Baltic States.
Double bluff?
I doubt it. I can't see what there is to be gained by that.
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Confirmed. Scampton is finished.
RAF Waddington is the major uk base for Unmanned Systems though.
They have a brand new Electronic Warefare facility there. Well, it’s been there a few years actually.
13 Sqn RAF are based there (ex tornado sqn) Which is A Reaper Drone unit now.
Most uk drone ops in Afghan were run from there. Or 39 sqn RAF which is based in the Nevada desert just a few clicks north of Vegas. A detachment with USAF.
By the end of this year, the Red Arrows will be rehoused at Waddington too.
I was at Scampton just last week. It isn't quite 'finished' - although closure is in the pipeline.... just as well really as it's in a poor state of repair now and would cost a fortune to fix it up.
The Reds are supposed to be moving to Waddington end of this year - although don't be surprised if it slips......... yet again.
Used to work in the Air Warfare Centre at Waddington and can confirm what you say regarding 13 Sqn - who were the first UK based Reaper Squadron - been there about 10 years now.
Can also confirm that 39 Sqn have been based at Creech Air Force Base north of Vegas in Nevada for several years - pre 13 Sqn.
Never actually been there, but I have had to go to Nellis Air Force Base (just out of Vegas) a few times......with my old job.
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Interesting. Russia is pulling troops away from the border.
Looks like a very sensible win for Putin.
1) The West has made it clear it would t fight for Ukraine.
2) The West has made is clear it BELIEVED Putin would go to war.
3) It's clear that Ukraine will now not be joining NATO.
4) Not a shot fired.
Putin strengthened. West weakened.
The real concern comes if he now tries this in the Baltic States.
If this is a Russian climb down, then Putin will need something to save face. If Ukraine has agreed not to join NATO then that is not a great loss, since they weren't members anyway.
Finland isn't a member of NATO, Austria isn't a member of NATO and they can still flourish. If Ukraine is able to go about its business and Putin is happy enough knowing NATO isn't on his doorstep, then its a reasonable outcome.
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I'm not sure Putin will have any face saving issues at home. The official media is already playing it as "Look how stupid the West was, shitting itself in response to nothing more than training exercises from the Great Patriotic Army.
Similarly, there's no face saving needed abroad. Putin's gun hand has twitched and the West HAS shit itself. Taken the threat seriously, said explicitly that we wouldn't intervene, had leaders scuttling back and forth to Moscow like Chamberlain to Munich and allowed talk of Finlandisation of Ukraine out into the mainstream.
Job done.
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I’m not sure why anyone is surprised by this outcome.
No one wanted an actual war did they?
I would imagine that there is much state control in Russia with regards to news outlets so they will just give information that Putin says it is ok to give.
No winners.
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I guess there is an alternative take.
That the West knew Putin wasn't seriously considering an invasion, but they have hammed it up (withdrawing staff for safety, talking about imminent invasion) in order to put the shits up Ukraine to accept Finlandisation.
Because let's face it.
America doesn't want to be fighting with Russia if it can help it.
Germany doesn't want to risk its gas supply.
Britain doesn't want to have to boot the kleptocrats out of Londongrad (and certainly the Tories don't want to lose their income).
So this way, everyone is happy. Except Ukraine, which is given into the embrace of Russia for a generation.
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I'm of the belief they are peeved off with being surrounded by NATO, with the likes of Estonia & Lithuania as members (where we also conduct 'training' from).
This is stomping their heels as Ukraine joining really would have been a kick in the teeth for them.
No one wants a war as it would be a cataclysmic disaster.
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Estonia and Lithuania and Latvia asked to join NATO because they want protection against being invaded by Russia. They want to be free democracies, not Russian clonies.
Ukraine wanted membership of NATO for the same reason.
There is absolutely zero possibility of NATO launching an attack on Russia. Russia doesn't want those countries outside NATO because it is afraid. It wants the, out of NATO so it can control them. There is only one aggressor in all this. But there are plenty of Useful Idiots in the West doing Putin's propaganda job for him.
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Latest reports suggest nothing has yet changed.
The Russians haven't moved forces away yet, NATO hasn't agreed to anything.
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Why is it ok to have US forces in Europe but as soon as Russia stands up for itself they are war mongers?
I think the West has more blood on it's hands since the end of WW2 than Russia. The serial invaders need to have a look at themselves before criticizing others.
Vietnam, Grenada, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
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Why is it ok to have US forces in Europe but as soon as Russia stands up for itself they are war mongers?
I think the West has more blood on it's hands since the end of WW2 than Russia. The serial invaders need to have a look at themselves before criticizing others.
Vietnam, Grenada, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Versus Ukraine, Georgia, Syria, Afghanistan etc......
It's all well and good saying that Russia shouldn't have been engaged, but had they not been they undoubtedly would have invaded Ukraine.
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The Russians starved about 4 million probably more in Ukraine when they forced collectivisation on them in the 30s.
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BFYP, it was only economics that was the reason for Russia vacating most of Eastern Europe, and you must be of an age that Hungary and Czechoslovakia happened before you were born, and the threat of coming all the way West for the rest of mainland Europe was taken very seriously by everybody. It is six of one and six for the other who gets the plaudits for this because while Billy thinks he has won the joust, him and old Gerry will have been told by the US that the pipe line that they both see as their economic saviour would not exist ten minutes if Putin made a move.
The US are not that bothered about the oil and gas situation in Europe, or Greta and her fans.
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Why is it ok to have US forces in Europe but as soon as Russia stands up for itself they are war mongers?
I think the West has more blood on it's hands since the end of WW2 than Russia. The serial invaders need to have a look at themselves before criticizing others.
Vietnam, Grenada, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Versus Ukraine, Georgia, Syria, Afghanistan etc......
It's all well and good saying that Russia shouldn't have been engaged, but had they not been they undoubtedly would have invaded Ukraine.
Not to mention the biggest war crime of the past 50 years. Chechnya.
This is what Russia did to Grozny.
(https://euromaidanpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/russia-chechnya-war-eru102563.jpg)
That's not a picture from WWI. That's from the very end of the 1990s, on the edge of Europe.
The West has done some horrific things this past 50 years but nothing comes close to what Russia has done in Grozny and Aleppo. Bestial.
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Why is it ok to have US forces in Europe but as soon as Russia stands up for itself they are war mongers?
I think the West has more blood on it's hands since the end of WW2 than Russia. The serial invaders need to have a look at themselves before criticizing others.
Vietnam, Grenada, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Versus Ukraine, Georgia, Syria, Afghanistan etc......
It's all well and good saying that Russia shouldn't have been engaged, but had they not been they undoubtedly would have invaded Ukraine.
Not to mention the biggest war crime of the past 50 years. Chechnya.
This is what Russia did to Grozny.
(https://euromaidanpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/russia-chechnya-war-eru102563.jpg)
That's not a picture from WWI. That's from the very end of the 1990s, on the edge of Europe.
The West has done some horrific things this past 50 years but nothing comes close to what Russia has done in Grozny and Aleppo. Bestial.
Fighting against Islamic Jihadis defending the civilized world as they did in Syria ( who were probably armed by the West ). Justified action in my book, you can't make an omelet without breaking eggs.
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Like I said AL. You would have supported the Final Solution if you were 75 years older. You are truly disgusting.
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Like I said AL. You would have supported the Final Solution if you were 75 years older. You are truly disgusting.
So you would have supported the Chechen Jihadis in their atrocities then? There can be no soft touch in dealing with animals like them. Go in fast and hard to eliminate the problem.
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/hostage-crisis-in-moscow-theater
This is the scum they were dealing with. Just because the West has no backbone because they are to busy fretting over personal pro nouns don't have a go at a country with the balls to get the job done.
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US intelligence still expecting the attack to commence at 1am UK time.
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We will never be closer to any relations with them whilst:
A: They continue with antics such as sitting on the Ukraine border.
B. Whilst NATO continues to collect member countries that surround Russia.
C. Whilst they and the west are continually in disagreement in places such as Syria as an example.
Maybe it will forever be cultural differences that separate us.
And a lack of willingness on both sides to sir around and discuss things.
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This situation would not have occurred if Trump was still in office.
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This situation would not have occurred if Trump was still in office.
The Trump who got elected into the White House on the back of Russian oligarch money? What do you think he would have done differently other than waved Putin in?
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From Twitter @visionergeo
Don't forget that in 2008 Russia announced the completion of large-scale Kavkaz-2008 military exercise near Georgian borders and withdrew some of its forces to their permanent bases on August 2, just five days before the Russian invasion into Georgia was launched.
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This situation would not have occurred if Trump was still in office.
The Trump who got elected into the White House on the back of Russian oligarch money? What do you think he would have done differently other than waved Putin in?
Which would have solved the problem and we can all get on with our lives in peace.
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This situation would not have occurred if Trump was still in office.
The Trump who got elected into the White House on the back of Russian oligarch money? What do you think he would have done differently other than waved Putin in?
Which would have solved the problem and we can all get on with our lives in peace.
At least until he turned his attention to the Baltic's.
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This situation would not have occurred if Trump was still in office.
The Trump who got elected into the White House on the back of Russian oligarch money? What do you think he would have done differently other than waved Putin in?
Which would have solved the problem and we can all get on with our lives in peace.
At least until he turned his attention to the Baltic's.
Which should be the same outcome.
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Why is it ok to have US forces in Europe but as soon as Russia stands up for itself they are war mongers?
I think the West has more blood on it's hands since the end of WW2 than Russia. The serial invaders need to have a look at themselves before criticizing others.
Vietnam, Grenada, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan and that's just the tip of the iceberg.
Versus Ukraine, Georgia, Syria, Afghanistan etc......
It's all well and good saying that Russia shouldn't have been engaged, but had they not been they undoubtedly would have invaded Ukraine.
And East Germany, Hungary and Czechoslovakia...
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This situation would not have occurred if Trump was still in office.
The Trump who got elected into the White House on the back of Russian oligarch money? What do you think he would have done differently other than waved Putin in?
Which would have solved the problem and we can all get on with our lives in peace.
Except for the people defending their country, of course. But they don't count it seems.
I'd never have expected a Millwall supporter to kowtow to a bully.
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Like I said AL. You would have supported the Final Solution if you were 75 years older. You are truly disgusting.
So you would have supported the Chechen Jihadis in their atrocities then? There can be no soft touch in dealing with animals like them. Go in fast and hard to eliminate the problem.
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/hostage-crisis-in-moscow-theater
This is the scum they were dealing with. Just because the West has no backbone because they are to busy fretting over personal pro nouns don't have a go at a country with the balls to get the job done.
I know all about that scho siege and it was horrific. But you don't respond to that by carpet bombing a city out of existence, killing 100,000 civilians and destroying the homes of half a million more. Unless you are sub-human.
I also know about how the Moscow police stumbled upon members of Putin's FSB setting up false flag terrorist attacks to justify the action in Grozny. And what happened to politicians and journalists who tried to dig into the cover up.
Support a murdering, genocidal gangster if you want AL. Just don't try and dress up bestial crimes as some sort of moral good.
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This situation would not have occurred if Trump was still in office.
The Trump who got elected into the White House on the back of Russian oligarch money? What do you think he would have done differently other than waved Putin in?
Which would have solved the problem and we can all get on with our lives in peace.
Except for the people defending their country, of course. But they don't count it seems.
I'd never have expected a Millwall supporter to kowtow to a bully.
What's it got to do with us? it's not our sphere of influence and security. RUSSIA DOES NOT WANT TO INVADE THE WEST! They just want their own patch to be secure without encroachment from the liberalist pollution of the western world.
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Like I said AL. You would have supported the Final Solution if you were 75 years older. You are truly disgusting.
So you would have supported the Chechen Jihadis in their atrocities then? There can be no soft touch in dealing with animals like them. Go in fast and hard to eliminate the problem.
https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/hostage-crisis-in-moscow-theater
This is the scum they were dealing with. Just because the West has no backbone because they are to busy fretting over personal pro nouns don't have a go at a country with the balls to get the job done.
I know all about that scho siege and it was horrific. But you don't respond to that by carpet bombing a city out of existence, killing 100,000 civilians and destroying the homes of half a million more. Unless you are sub-human.
So what should they have done, sent a strongly worded letter?
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This situation would not have occurred if Trump was still in office.
The Trump who got elected into the White House on the back of Russian oligarch money? What do you think he would have done differently other than waved Putin in?
Which would have solved the problem and we can all get on with our lives in peace.
At least until he turned his attention to the Baltic's.
Which should be the same outcome.
And then Poland.
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This situation would not have occurred if Trump was still in office.
The Trump who got elected into the White House on the back of Russian oligarch money? What do you think he would have done differently other than waved Putin in?
Which would have solved the problem and we can all get on with our lives in peace.
Except for the people defending their country, of course. But they don't count it seems.
I'd never have expected a Millwall supporter to kowtow to a bully.
What's it got to do with us? it's not our sphere of influence and security. RUSSIA DOES NOT WANT TO INVADE THE WEST! They just want their own patch to be secure without encroachment from the liberalist pollution of the western world.
https://www.history.com/news/chamberlain-declares-peace-for-our-time-75-years-ago
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The Ukrainians are kinsfolk to the Russians. It's not our domain and we should not interfere. When will we ever learn busy bodying in the affairs of others?
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The Ukrainians are kinsfolk to the Russians. It's not our domain and we should not interfere. When will we ever learn busy bodying in the affairs of others?
Some of them are, in the west many have a Polish links.
And anyway it's the Ukrainians themselves who are turning away from Russia and towards the EU.
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The Ukrainians are kinsfolk to the Russians. It's not our domain and we should not interfere. When will we ever learn busy bodying in the affairs of others?
Using that logic, we should never have declared war on Germany in 1939.
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Invasion now likely on February 30th at 12.78pm
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It depends on what Putin see's as success, If he can pull one over NATO's eyes and can be seen to have done, then there is a good chance it will pacify him.
If negotiations don't go to his liking, I wouldn't like to bet whether he has the balls to flick the switch or not, everyone has a lot to lose if that's the final outcome not least himself and the regime he dominates.
And if he does invade, all he will be left with will be a hornets nest, I don't think the Ukrainians will be a push over.
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I doubt Putin will invade or ever had any intention of doing so. Why would he want to get involved in a guerilla war for the next however many years at the risk of bringing that into Russia itself? He was in the KGB when they planned the invasion Afghanistan in 1979 - I doubt he would risk a repeat of that. Or see Russia banned from all world sports events for years.
What he wants is for the Ukraine to look to Russia for its security, to be taken seriously as a world leader, to damage the western economy and to enhance his prestige at home. Doing pretty well on all those by just moving a few soldiers about on Russian territory I would have thought.
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Good take Wilts.
As far as I can see there's only two ways you can figure out how the West has acted.
1) We genuinely believed that Putin was going to invade and we shite it. Which doesn't bode well for future brinksmanship.
2) It was all an act. The West wants to give Ukraine up to Putin to be rid of the problem of having to protect it. They never really believed he was going to invade but we played it up hold a gun to Ukraine's head.
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Well Putin did take Crimea.
The prospect of him doing something like that again and linking that region to the mother country via the Russian speaking region of Donetsk has to be given some credence don't you think?
It appears Putin doesn't know what he will try next, I think he's pushing the boundaries to see what crops up.
So far the demand Ukraine does not join NATO still seems to be his minimum he will accept.
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I wonder if any of this is being reported to the general public in Russia?
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This is the problem when leaders are ageing , what if Putin has a terminal illness or something and thinks f**k it, I’ll take everyone else with me with a nuke
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I wonder if any of this is being reported to the general public in Russia?
I believe RT have been very busy, showing lurid images of atrocities committed against Russians living in Ukraine. I believe there has been lots of propaganda about aggressive actions of the west too.
It is one reason they believe Russia will launch some kind of action. They have been preparing their public for it.
I wonder how much control the Russian state has over the interwebs?
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Interesting piece on the information war going on.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/16/us-uk-russia-invasion-ingelligence-public-briefings
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Well Putin did take Crimea.
The prospect of him doing something like that again and linking that region to the mother country via the Russian speaking region of Donetsk has to be given some credence don't you think?
It appears Putin doesn't know what he will try next, I think he's pushing the boundaries to see what crops up.
So far the demand Ukraine does not join NATO still seems to be his minimum he will accept.
This is the marker RD, they have form, unless 150,000 troops are really just practicing grid parking.
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Looks like the Russians are kicking off...
Reports of tanks firing in Eastern Ukraine.
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Looks like the Russians are kicking off...
Reports of tanks firing in Eastern Ukraine.
Or maybe not yet. An alert from the Daily Express, I should've known better.
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OK, I've been very naive here. There's much more going on.
Putin is clearly still wanting to invade. Biden, far from shiting it, as I'd thought, has been cleverly and very publicly playing a strategy of calling out what Putin wants to do in order to unnerve him with the strength of American intel.
That explains why Putin claimed to have withdrawn forces from the border in response to Biden saying war was imminent, and the Russian media responding in hyperbolic terms about America being humiliated.
But it looks like the Russian troops have gone nowhere.
Biden has said the next stage will be a false flag event to justify invasion. And sure enough, the Russians are screaming about a car bombing in Donetsk. Apparently the car of a senior Russian military official in Donetsk has been blown up.
In empty car park.
In the middle of nowhere.
And this, apparently, was done by the Ukrainians.
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I also think Stoltenberg is doing a very good job as well BST.
The thing worrying me is tomorrow being the exact 8th anniversary of moving into Crimea, The sort of thing that would have been on Putin’s mind when he started. I think he has been surprised by the resolve and unity of NATO and US in particular. Is Biden giving Putin a way of stepping back by effectively saying ‘humiliate me for my calls and talk about my escalatory rhetoric’. Of course ‘stepping back’ would simply mean not actually invading now, but keeping the troops in position and testing the West’s longer term response and await maybe a breaking of ranks.
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https://www.flightradar24.com/47.83,32.5/6
out of interest on hearing a few military planes decided to see what was happening in the skies
note how the planes keep out of Ukraine air space
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Good points DU.
There's still a bit of this that feels like a war game. Both sides seeing if the other will do what we expect when we do X. Probing what the strengths and weaknesses of the other side are. Let's hope that's as far as it goes.
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The latest intelligence seems to be that Putin has already given the go. Separatist actions in the east certainly appear to be ramping up now.
I wonder if he's waiting for the Winter Olympics to finish?
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Looks like things are starting to ramp up now
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Anyone who doubts he will follow through with this needs to give their head a shake. He will do so unless he wins something, what has he got to lose? Lives of troops? I don't think that's a part of the equation for the Russian President.
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Yep that’s my concern too this could escalate rapidly
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Just reading the translation of his speech, I actually have concerns about his sanity.
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Utter brinksmanship all round, and very dangerous.
Even if Putin doesn't invade in the coming days the problem for NATO and the West isn't going away any time soon. Putin might wait it out with his troops in place, and see if prolonged pressure can the produce divisions in NATO he is looking for.
Or he might just invade. It depends on which combination of importance and likelihood of achieving a goal is more attractive to him - the easily achievable military occupation of Ukraine, or the longer shot and the possible jackpot of a breakup of NATO.
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Annexing (dont give me independent sovereign states) another country's territory - thats pretty much an act of war.
Where do we go now and what are Johnson/Biden/the west going to do?
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Serious question wilts, if he does invade, what do you think the west should do?
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Freeze every bank account in the City of London connected with a Russian citizen or any duel national who has been allowed to come into the UK on a Golden visa.
No one takes money out of Russia without Putin's consent.
Bill Browder explains this in Red Notice.
Its what will hurt Putin most, take his money away from him and his cronies - they stole it from the Russian people in the first place - and damage him in turns of wealth and prestige.
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Good answer wilts, and I suppose that could be extended to the USA and other European countries.
No doubt though that they would respond with other things, maybe cutting off the gas.
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Good answer wilts, and I suppose that could be extended to the USA and other European countries.
No doubt though that they would respond with other things, maybe cutting off the gas.
Yes hound, the US have begun this with their Magnitsky Act - though they could go further. Other have yet to start - and Swiss need to be involved.
Undoubtably the Russians will cut off the gas - although of course that will also hurt them with loss of revenue - but you can't allow tyranny. We will have to try and make up the gas from other sources, North Sea, US liquified etc. It shows the urgent need to look for other sources tho.
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Here we go...
Putin orders forces in for "peacekeeping" purposes.
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I thought he was going to leave this hanging, see if he could cause some friction between NATO members but no. He's eager to get in there.
I suppose he can't keep all those troops sitting freezing in tents on the border for long.
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He's really swinging punches now. Saying Ukraine has no historical right to exist. Demanding NATO withdraws from all ex-Soviet bloc countries.
Big, big move. Let's see if the West has the balls to do more than token gestures.
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Thought the correspondent on sky was interesting. He said he was with the separatists on the front line and some questioned if Putin is all there. He's certainly changed when you look at him over time.
The west will let Ukraine go though they won't see it as worth a war frankly.and he knows that.
It's worth watching RT for their take on it. Completely the opposite of British media. I find that aspect quite fascinating.
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The prediction the invasion would begin once China's Winter Olympics ended have proven 100% accurate.
Scary and ominous. An invasion of a democratic European nation by a dictatorship run by a thug who is making veiled threats against other nation states including those in NATO.
The West need to stand firmly together on this and match action to rhetoric. Harsh, severe economic sanctions.
No backsliding from any country.
Not on having to endure higher energy prices. Not on propaganda from Russia of empty shop shelves.
Democracy in Eastern Europe is at stake here plus many, many lives if this abominable dictator is allowed to think he can escalate things further.
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The first casualty in war .............
''‘Dumb and lazy’: the flawed films of Ukrainian ‘attacks’ made by Russia’s ‘fake factory’''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/21/dumb-and-lazy-the-flawed-films-of-ukrainian-attacks-made-by-russias-fake-factory
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Interesting to see how these sanctions play out. Great swathes of the capital are Russian owned.
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Sanctions are all well and good but they are reactionary, if the threat of them doesn't work the next stage is a sort of siege situation.
We (the world ) trades with rogue nations, in the background hoping that they become more accepting of western ideas and accept more and more of them. It doesn't appear to work with Russia and China.
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The Govt could start by chucking the son of a FSB agent out of the House of Lords
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The Govt could start by chucking the son of a FSB agent out of the House of Lords
The one who keeps a dog on a leash called Boris?
That's a real dog on a real leash by the way, not a euphemism.
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leaders without conscience
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I wouldn't take it as a given that Russian forces will be successful in Ukraine .
The Ukrainians more than match up the Russians in military numbers plus paramilitaries .
Not certain about the quality of their hardware though but none the less any nation who is invaded tends to have a massive amount of motivation in battle as opposed to invading forces .
Ask the Americans how it went in Vietnam for example .
The Russian losses could be massive .
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The Govt could start by chucking the son of a FSB agent out of the House of Lords
The one who keeps a dog on a leash called Boris?
That's a real dog on a real leash by the way, not a euphemism.
Why would anyone call a leash Boris.
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To me China has been pulling some strings, it was widely reported that China didn’t want Russia to go into Ukraine until the Olympics had finished, that report has come to fruition. China knew this was coming, I expect all other Russian friendly states to fall into line behind Russia, China, North Korea, Syria etc will not condemn Russia
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It looks like the tanks are rolling now.
I think that might be a tactical blunder. If he'd recognised those states as being independent and left it at that, the onus would have been on Ukraine to do something about it.
As it is, it's straight forward aggression from the Russians
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It all comes down to what Putin wants and why he wants it.
Seems to me this is a stupendous gamble. He's going all-in on the belief that he can demonstrate the strength of his resolve in crushing a democratic neighbour. He's gambling that the West won't take action sufficiently hard to hurt either Russia as a country or his own cabal of kleptocrats.
Why he wants to do that is the real question though. Seems to me there are for possible reasons.
1) He's genuinely scared at the prospect of military invasion from a NATO encirclement. This doesn't stand up at all. There is no way on God's earth that a single NATO toe end is setting foot on nuclear-armed Russian territory.
2) He's making a show of Great Russia strength because he feels under threat at home.
Then the really scary final 2.
3) He's using this as a test of western resolve. And if he sees weakness, he'll take the final massive gamble of invading the Baltics or Poland or Romania. God help us all if that happens, which is why Western responses must be overwhelming and co-ordinated now.
4) He's genuinely insane. Listening to him last night, you can't discount that possibility. Or at least the possibility that he is playing the insane card to frighten the West into thinking he may do something TRULY insane.
Hands up from me. I am genuinely frightened about where this could lead.
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The cost to Russia of Putins actions shouldn’t be underestimated here. On the wireless last night they were talking about how the Russian economy will be affected by worldwide sanctions, and it’s truly frightening. The Russian population are in for a very, very hard time if the sanctions threatened turn into reality.
It’s also worth remembering that, militarily, they are absolutely light years behind NATO. They have large numbers of ‘men on the ground’ but their technology and hardware is largely dated compared to that which NATO possess. Any conflict with NATO would be brief and very painful & costly for the Russians. The NATO defence system is more than able to deal with any attack from Russia. This is nothing like the old Warsaw Pact v NATO face off of the 70’s and 80’s.
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Any assessment of a conflict between Russia and NATO that ignores the possibility of it turning into the nightmare scenario is, if you don't mind me saying so, rather naively simplistic.
Here's the issue.
1) There must NEVER be a direct military conflict between Russia and NATO while both sides have thousands of nukes aimed at each other.
2) That means both sides have to know what the limits of acceptable behaviour are.
3) It's grimly realistic to say that Russia invading Ukraine is, in those terms "acceptable" to NATO. By which I mean that this invasion will not lead directly to a NAT-Russia war.
4) But it is this far and no further. If Russia so much as breathes over the border into the Baltics, that is a declaration of war on NATO. Putin is, I think, gambling that the West hasn't got the balls to face him down if he does threaten that. He's seeing how the Wrest responds to this aggression in order to judge his next moves It is absolutely vital that he is given a response that he cannot misinterpret.
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Start by letting it be known that any bears that come anywhere near UK airspace will be shot down without warning
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It all comes down to what Putin wants and why he wants it.
Seems to me this is a stupendous gamble. He's going all-in on the belief that he can demonstrate the strength of his resolve in crushing a democratic neighbour. He's gambling that the West won't take action sufficiently hard to hurt either Russia as a country or his own cabal of kleptocrats.
Why he wants to do that is the real question though. Seems to me there are for possible reasons.
1) He's genuinely scared at the prospect of military invasion from a NATO encirclement. This doesn't stand up at all. There is no way on God's earth that a single NATO toe end is setting foot on nuclear-armed Russian territory.
2) He's making a show of Great Russia strength because he feels under threat at home.
Then the really scary final 2.
3) He's using this as a test of western resolve. And if he sees weakness, he'll take the final massive gamble of invading the Baltics or Poland or Romania. God help us all if that happens, which is why Western responses must be overwhelming and co-ordinated now.
4) He's genuinely insane. Listening to him last night, you can't discount that possibility. Or at least the possibility that he is playing the insane card to frighten the West into thinking he may do something TRULY insane.
Hands up from me. I am genuinely frightened about where this could lead.
Don't worry you'll be safe in your Covid bunker.
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I thought it wouldn't be long before our resident fascist waded in.
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Russia & NATO will not come into (armed) conflict over Ukraine. Full stop. However, if he invaded/attacks a NATO member it will lead to a full scale conflict that Russia have absolutely no hope of winning. Back in the day, the threat of mutual destruction was considered enough of a deterrent, but that threat has reduced significantly now (though not disappeared completely). The West’s missile defence mechanism is designed to ‘knock out’ any missiles before they get anywhere near a target and is extremely effective. Russia simply doesn’t have anything remotely close to that standard.
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The prospect of Russian aggression against NATO is the nightmare for both sides. If Putin is mad enough to try that, we'd have to hope there is enough sanity amongst the Russian military top brass to prevent it happening.
As for Ukraine, Putin sees it as still being a domestic issue. The next step will be when Russians come into contact with Ukrainian forces, fighting then could well signal the start of a full Russian invasion.
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Russia & NATO will not come into (armed) conflict over Ukraine. Full stop. However, if he invaded/attacks a NATO member it will lead to a full scale conflict that Russia have absolutely no hope of winning. Back in the day, the threat of mutual destruction was considered enough of a deterrent, but that threat has reduced significantly now (though not disappeared completely). The West’s missile defence mechanism is designed to ‘knock out’ any missiles before they get anywhere near a target and is extremely effective. Russia simply doesn’t have anything remotely close to that standard.
I wouldn't be so sure on that.
https://www.voanews.com/a/russia-says-latest-zircon-hypersonic-missile-test-successful/6331758.html
I agree with BST's assessment that Putin is continually pushing to see how far he can go, and testing the West's resolve. If we don't react strongly to this he will threaten a more dangerous next step somewhere.
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Let remember that 130,000 Russian troops poised to invade and Abbott and Corbyn blame the US and the UK. And there are people on here who would have elected them as the leader and foreign secretary. Thank God the British electorate saw sense
Did they? Or are they just pro Stop The War, because y'know they want to stop all wars...? They have just said the UK government have been rattling cages which has antagonised things when we should be looking for de-escalation.
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Start by letting it be known that any bears that come anywhere near UK airspace will be shot down without warning
Agree sentiment, but statement needs refining a little I think - we cannot do anything in international airspace. Any bear entering UK airspace will be intercepted, warned and shot down if not compliant would be more appropriate. Testing enemy air defences by coming legally close to their airspace goes on all the time.
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Let remember that 130,000 Russian troops poised to invade and Abbott and Corbyn blame the US and the UK. And there are people on here who would have elected them as the leader and foreign secretary. Thank God the British electorate saw sense
Pacifism is a fine thing but there are limits. Frankly Macron has gone down every avenue to find a peaceful solution and Putin has made him look a fool time and again.
Did they? Or are they just pro Stop The War, because y'know they want to stop all wars...? They have just said the UK government have been rattling cages which has antagonised things when we should be looking for de-escalation.
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Russia & NATO will not come into (armed) conflict over Ukraine. Full stop. However, if he invaded/attacks a NATO member it will lead to a full scale conflict that Russia have absolutely no hope of winning. Back in the day, the threat of mutual destruction was considered enough of a deterrent, but that threat has reduced significantly now (though not disappeared completely). The West’s missile defence mechanism is designed to ‘knock out’ any missiles before they get anywhere near a target and is extremely effective. Russia simply doesn’t have anything remotely close to that standard.
And what percentage of nuclear missiles getting through a missile defence system is considered acceptable? Even before you build into your planning the fact that both NATO and Russian plans for war in Europe involve the widespread use of tactical battlefield nukes.
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Let remember that 130,000 Russian troops poised to invade and Abbott and Corbyn blame the US and the UK. And there are people on here who would have elected them as the leader and foreign secretary. Thank God the British electorate saw sense
Did they? Or are they just pro Stop The War, because y'know they want to stop all wars...? They have just said the UK government have been rattling cages which has antagonised things when we should be looking for de-escalation.
DO.
I suggest you go and look over what StW have been saying recently, and what Corbyn himself has said.
Not a word from either of them as far as I can see, of criticism of Russia. Just calls for the West to de-escalate the tension. As if the cause of the tension isn't Russian aggression.
At some point, you're going to have to realise that the Corbyn cabal are de facto Russian agents.At the very least they are what the Soviets used to call "useful idiots". From Corbyn's 4th form history article in the Morning Star a decade ago on NATO, via Seamus Milne eulogising Putin in a conference in Sochi, and giving instructions to the Labour media team not to critcise Putin's carpet bombing of Aleppo, through Corbyn's disgraceful response to Salisbury, to this blaming of the West for Russia invading a neighbouring democracy.
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It has to be said that imports from Russia have returned to levels pre-annexation of the Crimea would have given putin confidence that whatever is done now will not last unless it turns onto a full military invasion.
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I thought it wouldn't be long before our resident fascist waded in.
You seem to be really itching for a war don't you. It's alright as long as you're not the one doing the fighting...
Why not try looking at the situation from their point of view and come to a mutually agreeable solution? Or maybe you'd rather thousands slaughtered?
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Of course I'm not itching for war you utter bell end. But a war has been started by a fascist dictator. One that you admire and never criticise.
And history tells you what happens if you don't smack down fascist warmongers.
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The prediction the invasion would begin once China's Winter Olympics ended have proven 100% accurate.
Scary and ominous. An invasion of a democratic European nation by a dictatorship run by a thug who is making veiled threats against other nation states including those in NATO.
The West need to stand firmly together on this and match action to rhetoric. Harsh, severe economic sanctions.
Exactly right Branton - Russia didn't want to piss on China's Olympic chips, so delayed any action.
Also given that Russia and China are both vote carrying members of the UNSC - with power of veto - it makes any resolutions politically irrelevant
As said by Branton - the West need to stand resolute and ensure that they act as one...
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I thought it wouldn't be long before our resident fascist waded in.
You seem to be really itching for a war don't you. It's alright as long as you're not the one doing the fighting...
Why not try looking at the situation from their point of view and come to a mutually agreeable solution? Or maybe you'd rather thousands slaughtered?
How about looking at the situation from the Ukranian's point of view for once.
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I thought it wouldn't be long before our resident fascist waded in.
You seem to be really itching for a war don't you. It's alright as long as you're not the one doing the fighting...
Why not try looking at the situation from their point of view and come to a mutually agreeable solution? Or maybe you'd rather thousands slaughtered?
How about looking at the situation from the Ukranian's point of view for once.
I have and they are being unreasonable. All they need to do is drop demands to join NATO and agree to autonomy for ethnic Russian regions and the whole thing would blow over.
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Of course I'm not itching for war you utter bell end. But a war has been started by a fascist dictator. One that you admire and never criticise.
And history tells you what happens if you don't smack down fascist warmongers.
I'll comfort myself with that when we're sat huddling around a candle to keep warm because the price of gas as gone through the roof, all due to getting involved in other people's business which doesn't concern us. It probably won't really worry a champagne socialist like yourself will it?
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Stop the War have published on their site a position statement:
https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/stop-the-war-statement-on-ukraine-22-02-22/
It is clearly not true to say that they have taken a pro-Moscow view, much more to condemn the actions of all parties leading up to the present situation.
The Tories have accepted Russian cash to fund political activity in the recent past:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/quarter-boris-johnsons-cabinet-took-25123091
That being so, can the UK government take action which does not pay regard to those interests?
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Of course I'm not itching for war you utter bell end. But a war has been started by a fascist dictator. One that you admire and never criticise.
And history tells you what happens if you don't smack down fascist warmongers.
I'll comfort myself with that when we're sat huddling around a candle to keep warm because the price of gas as gone through the roof, all due to getting involved in other people's business which doesn't concern us. It probably won't really worry a champagne socialist like yourself will it?
Slightly off topic, but how can someone get away with calling another poster a bellend.
Surely that is against forum protocol.
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Tuppenceworth from me
What I think Putin wants is to go down in history as the greatest Russian leader ever.
No Russian leader has ever been overthrown by an external force - but plenty have by internal action.
Putin wont be defeated on the battlefield but by making him unpopular in Russsia. Impoverish him and his friends by cutting him and his oligarchs out of western society, freeze their bank accounts and take their property off them, cut Russia off from sports and cultural events. When these people dont get any benefit from Putin being in power he will soon begone - its how the USSR fell.
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Putin seems to me to be both a cynical opportunist, and a geopolitical poker player.
This is not news.
The western allies have known this for many years, so the important question to ask is how we have enabled (perhaps by omission) the chance for him to roll out both tendencies to the max.
The diplomacy game is about making sure these circumstances do not arise, by thinking through the unintended consequences of political choices when they are made.
We in the west have systems aligned to an electoral cycle which does not favour long term planning.
Putin is secure in the position he holds over a much longer frame, so can play the long game in preparing his poker moves.
I just can't see an effective UK response lasting long term given the dependency of the UK financial sector on laundering dirty Russian money. Kompromat via dependency, whether on gas or financial inputs, loads the dice heavily in favour of non-effective token responses.
Not a good position to have created for our own security.
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Stop the War have published on their site a position statement:
https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/stop-the-war-statement-on-ukraine-22-02-22/
It is clearly not true to say that they have taken a pro-Moscow view, much more to condemn the actions of all parties leading up to the present situation.
The Tories have accepted Russian cash to fund political activity in the recent past:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/quarter-boris-johnsons-cabinet-took-25123091
That being so, can the UK government take action which does not pay regard to those interests?
The Press release saying "Yes Russia shouldn't...but...NATO....NATO...USA....NATO...NATO....NATO....UK....NATO....and we call on Britain to change its policy."
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Spot the difference between StW's "Naughty Russia, but ..."
And Arron Banks's "Naughty Russia but..."
https://mobile.twitter.com/Arron_banks/status/1496015423569022979
You go far enough to the left or right and you meet the other side with exactly the same policies.
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Spot the difference between StW's "Naughty Russia, but ..."
And Arron Banks's "Naughty Russia but..."
https://mobile.twitter.com/Arron_banks/status/1496015423569022979
You go far enough to the left or right and you meet the other side with exactly the same policies.
Yup. Because Russia funded them both for years. Probably still do.
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Careful Wilts.
Banks has taken a journalist to court for saying he lied about his links with Russia during the Leave camoaign. Even though he lied about his links to Russia during the Leave campaign.
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Another very dangerous fruitcake
''Former US President Donald Trump has called Vladimir Putin’s orders to send troops into Ukraine "genius".
Appearing on a right-wing radio show, Trump was asked about President Biden’s response to Putin’s sending military forces into Ukraine.
“I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, ‘This is genius,’” Trump said''
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It's fair to say you can be both a nutter and genius. Hitler, Saddam Hussein two prime examples.
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Point is: would Stanley Baldwin have publicly declared Hitler a genius after he invaded the Sudetenland?
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Careful Wilts.
Banks has taken a journalist to court for saying he lied about his links with Russia during the Leave camoaign. Even though he lied about his links to Russia during the Leave campaign.
I was referring to 'if you go far enough to the left and right' they will have the same policies/appeasement towards Russia rather than Mr Banks in particular. For instance Tommy Robinson did a speaking tour there not so long ago.
Also in this instance Corbyn's Labour differentiated itself from the far-left. John McDonnell called for sanctions on the oligarchs, implementation of unexplained weath orders, company investigations and a boycot of RT and personally delivered a letter of protest to Abramovich - among other measures - as part of the Ukraine Solidarity Campaign back in 2018.
https://ukrainesolidaritycampaign.org/2018/05/26/labour-mcdonnells-plan-to-take-on-the-russian-oligarchs/
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McDonnell was always a far more hard headed politician than Corbyn. Might have been a different last 7 years if he'd been elected leader in 2015.
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Careful Wilts.
Banks has taken a journalist to court for saying he lied about his links with Russia during the Leave camoaign. Even though he lied about his links to Russia during the Leave campaign.
I was referring to 'if you go far enough to the left and right' they will have the same policies/appeasement towards Russia rather than Mr Banks in particular. For instance Tommy Robinson did a speaking tour there not so long ago.
Also in this instance Corbyn's Labour differentiated itself from the far-left. John McDonnell called for sanctions on the oligarchs, implementation of unexplained weath orders, company investigations and a boycot of RT and personally delivered a letter of protest to Abramovich - among other measures - as part of the Ukraine Solidarity Campaign back in 2018.
https://ukrainesolidaritycampaign.org/2018/05/26/labour-mcdonnells-plan-to-take-on-the-russian-oligarchs/
Lots of big headlines now from most of the newspapers but you have to ask yourself would the Tele and Express have backed those sanctions suggested in your link at any time before now Wilts?
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This is not a very nice thing to say about johnson is it?
''These pathetic sanctions won’t hurt Putin. He’ll be laughing all the way to his dacha''
''Johnson keeps on saying that we are going to have a public register of beneficial ownership of UK property, so that shell companies owning swaths of UK property can’t hide their oligarch owners. Yet the government has been promising this for years – and Companies House still doesn’t have the power or the resources to verify information registered with it, so it’s easy to lie with impunity.
Johnson says they are closing the gold-plated tier 1 visa scheme for wealthy “investors”, but he still won’t tell us how many oligarchs were granted rights here without a proper examination of where their wealth came from. It’s difficult not to worry that the Russians who have given money to the Tories can have done so only because they were given UK nationality by the Tories. In any other country we would call that corruption''
''We need much tougher, wider sanctions. We need reform of Companies House so we know the truth behind shell companies. We need a new Foreign Lobbying Act, reform to the Official Secrets Act and the immediate publication of the review into tier 1 visas''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/22/vladimir-putin-ukraine-sanctions-boris-johnson
johnson is a jellyfish
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This is not a very nice thing to say about johnson is it?
''These pathetic sanctions won’t hurt Putin. He’ll be laughing all the way to his dacha''
''Johnson keeps on saying that we are going to have a public register of beneficial ownership of UK property, so that shell companies owning swaths of UK property can’t hide their oligarch owners. Yet the government has been promising this for years – and Companies House still doesn’t have the power or the resources to verify information registered with it, so it’s easy to lie with impunity.
Johnson says they are closing the gold-plated tier 1 visa scheme for wealthy “investors”, but he still won’t tell us how many oligarchs were granted rights here without a proper examination of where their wealth came from. It’s difficult not to worry that the Russians who have given money to the Tories can have done so only because they were given UK nationality by the Tories. In any other country we would call that corruption''
''We need much tougher, wider sanctions. We need reform of Companies House so we know the truth behind shell companies. We need a new Foreign Lobbying Act, reform to the Official Secrets Act and the immediate publication of the review into tier 1 visas''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/22/vladimir-putin-ukraine-sanctions-boris-johnson
johnson is a jellyfish
Would you like to tell us who started the " Golden Visa Scheme " Sydney ?
I'll give you a clue , it began in 2008 .
:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
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This is not a very nice thing to say about johnson is it?
''These pathetic sanctions won’t hurt Putin. He’ll be laughing all the way to his dacha''
''Johnson keeps on saying that we are going to have a public register of beneficial ownership of UK property, so that shell companies owning swaths of UK property can’t hide their oligarch owners. Yet the government has been promising this for years – and Companies House still doesn’t have the power or the resources to verify information registered with it, so it’s easy to lie with impunity.
Johnson says they are closing the gold-plated tier 1 visa scheme for wealthy “investors”, but he still won’t tell us how many oligarchs were granted rights here without a proper examination of where their wealth came from. It’s difficult not to worry that the Russians who have given money to the Tories can have done so only because they were given UK nationality by the Tories. In any other country we would call that corruption''
''We need much tougher, wider sanctions. We need reform of Companies House so we know the truth behind shell companies. We need a new Foreign Lobbying Act, reform to the Official Secrets Act and the immediate publication of the review into tier 1 visas''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/22/vladimir-putin-ukraine-sanctions-boris-johnson
johnson is a jellyfish
Would you like to tell us who started the " Golden Visa Scheme " Sydney ?
I'll give you a clue , it began in 2008 .
:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Maybe that's why you don't make a lot of sense tyke, banging your head too much, tell me who was responsible for implementing it since they came to power?
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Another very dangerous fruitcake
''Former US President Donald Trump has called Vladimir Putin’s orders to send troops into Ukraine "genius".
Appearing on a right-wing radio show, Trump was asked about President Biden’s response to Putin’s sending military forces into Ukraine.
“I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, ‘This is genius,’” Trump said''
Which right wing radio station was that SR, can you tell us.
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Another very dangerous fruitcake
''Former US President Donald Trump has called Vladimir Putin’s orders to send troops into Ukraine "genius".
Appearing on a right-wing radio show, Trump was asked about President Biden’s response to Putin’s sending military forces into Ukraine.
“I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, ‘This is genius,’” Trump said''
Which right wing radio station was that SR, can you tell us.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebHVsWQThMU
The bloke is insane.
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Another very dangerous fruitcake
''Former US President Donald Trump has called Vladimir Putin’s orders to send troops into Ukraine "genius".
Appearing on a right-wing radio show, Trump was asked about President Biden’s response to Putin’s sending military forces into Ukraine.
“I went in yesterday and there was a television screen, and I said, ‘This is genius,’” Trump said''
Which right wing radio station was that SR, can you tell us.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebHVsWQThMU
The bloke is insane.
I totally agree.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1496404306530123776
This is our Foreign Secretary.
Saying we will target people close to Putin.
Then being shown a picture of the wife of a former Putin minister, socialising with Tory ministers after giving the Tory party £1.8m.
And listen to what our Foreign Secretary says. "I think it's important that we don't conflate people with Russian heritage with people close to the Putin regime."
That's our Foreign Secretary. Demonstrating on TV, her ignorance of how people in Russia make fortunes. You simply do not get to have a spare £1.8m down the back of your Russian sofa without being in Putin's circle.
This is a massive crisis in the making for the Tories. If anyone cares. They are massively in hock to Putin's kleptocrats.
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By but didn't the PM move sharpish when Bryant stood up to challenge him about Abramovich, out the back door like a rat up a drainpipe.
What is the point of the Speaker if he cannot challenge MPs of any party about the "facts" they come out with and not having to correct the said "fact"
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Apparently Johnson has corrected the record today about Abramovic. Which, to my knowledge is the first time he's ever corrected an untruth he's told in the House.
I wonder who bent his ear on that one?
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Fun fact :
Matthew Elliott, Chief Executive of the Vote Leave campaign, was also founding member of the Conservative Friends of Russia group
https://t.co/Qkh8xbuoiJ
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Of course I'm not itching for war you utter bell end. But a war has been started by a fascist dictator. One that you admire and never criticise.
And history tells you what happens if you don't smack down fascist warmongers.
I'll comfort myself with that when we're sat huddling around a candle to keep warm because the price of gas as gone through the roof, all due to getting involved in other people's business which doesn't concern us. It probably won't really worry a champagne socialist like yourself will it?
Slightly off topic, but how can someone get away with calling another poster a bellend.
Surely that is against forum protocol.
Because it's 'his' forum maybe?
He can say what he wants, i don't care.
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Of course I'm not itching for war you utter bell end. But a war has been started by a fascist dictator. One that you admire and never criticise.
And history tells you what happens if you don't smack down fascist warmongers.
I'll comfort myself with that when we're sat huddling around a candle to keep warm because the price of gas as gone through the roof, all due to getting involved in other people's business which doesn't concern us. It probably won't really worry a champagne socialist like yourself will it?
Slightly off topic, but how can someone get away with calling another poster a bellend.
Surely that is against forum protocol.
And so is trolling, but folk get away with it
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The whole phased roll out of sanctions is to give wriggle room for the transfer of assets to safe havens from accounts and locations likely to be impacted.
The playbook is to talk tough, but look to retain the long term support of those who may be inconvenienced in the short term.
This harbouring of assets has been going on for a while in preparation for the phased sanctions regime. This would not have been allowed to happen if the western allies had wanted to prevent it.
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Of course I'm not itching for war you utter bell end. But a war has been started by a fascist dictator. One that you admire and never criticise.
And history tells you what happens if you don't smack down fascist warmongers.
I'll comfort myself with that when we're sat huddling around a candle to keep warm because the price of gas as gone through the roof, all due to getting involved in other people's business which doesn't concern us. It probably won't really worry a champagne socialist like yourself will it?
Slightly off topic, but how can someone get away with calling another poster a bellend.
Surely that is against forum protocol.
And so is trolling, but folk get away with it
Yes, you do don’t you.
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Of course I'm not itching for war you utter bell end. But a war has been started by a fascist dictator. One that you admire and never criticise.
And history tells you what happens if you don't smack down fascist warmongers.
I'll comfort myself with that when we're sat huddling around a candle to keep warm because the price of gas as gone through the roof, all due to getting involved in other people's business which doesn't concern us. It probably won't really worry a champagne socialist like yourself will it?
Slightly off topic, but how can someone get away with calling another poster a bellend.
Surely that is against forum protocol.
And so is trolling, but folk get away with it
Accusations on here of trolling are subjective and largely false.
Calling someone an ‘utter bell end’ is nothing short of pathetic. The great one blocks people for less.
Hats off to Axholme for not being dragged down to such levels of immaturity and ignorance, despite the provocation.
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This is not a very nice thing to say about johnson is it?
''These pathetic sanctions won’t hurt Putin. He’ll be laughing all the way to his dacha''
''Johnson keeps on saying that we are going to have a public register of beneficial ownership of UK property, so that shell companies owning swaths of UK property can’t hide their oligarch owners. Yet the government has been promising this for years – and Companies House still doesn’t have the power or the resources to verify information registered with it, so it’s easy to lie with impunity.
Johnson says they are closing the gold-plated tier 1 visa scheme for wealthy “investors”, but he still won’t tell us how many oligarchs were granted rights here without a proper examination of where their wealth came from. It’s difficult not to worry that the Russians who have given money to the Tories can have done so only because they were given UK nationality by the Tories. In any other country we would call that corruption''
''We need much tougher, wider sanctions. We need reform of Companies House so we know the truth behind shell companies. We need a new Foreign Lobbying Act, reform to the Official Secrets Act and the immediate publication of the review into tier 1 visas''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/22/vladimir-putin-ukraine-sanctions-boris-johnson
johnson is a jellyfish
Would you like to tell us who started the " Golden Visa Scheme " Sydney ?
I'll give you a clue , it began in 2008 .
:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Maybe that's why you don't make a lot of sense tyke, banging your head too much, tell me who was responsible for implementing it since they came to power?
Don't be like that Sydney because your party will soon be chasing any donations that they are lucky enough to be offered .
Unite Union considering pulling funding given Keith's lack of support for the Coventry bin drivers dispute .
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Of course I'm not itching for war you utter bell end. But a war has been started by a fascist dictator. One that you admire and never criticise.
And history tells you what happens if you don't smack down fascist warmongers.
I'll comfort myself with that when we're sat huddling around a candle to keep warm because the price of gas as gone through the roof, all due to getting involved in other people's business which doesn't concern us. It probably won't really worry a champagne socialist like yourself will it?
Slightly off topic, but how can someone get away with calling another poster a bellend.
Surely that is against forum protocol.
And so is trolling, but folk get away with it
Accusations on here of trolling are subjective and largely false.
Calling someone an ‘utter bell end’ is nothing short of pathetic. The great one blocks people for less.
Hats off to Axholme for not being dragged down to such levels of immaturity and ignorance, despite the provocation.
The thing here Belton is that because Filos leader is the most prolific poster on the forum, then it is reasonable to expect that he will get the most responses, particularly given that many of his posts are designed to provoke a reaction.
However, invariably, whenever anyone writes something that isn’t in agreement then Filo piles in, probably to gain some brownie points, and accuses others of being a troll.
Of course when bst constantly jumps onto posts by another posters, like BrantonRed for example, then good old Filo never says a word.
I have agreed with bst on some things and I have clicked the like button on his posts too but for some reason that isn’t trolling, apparently.
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Of course I'm not itching for war you utter bell end. But a war has been started by a fascist dictator. One that you admire and never criticise.
And history tells you what happens if you don't smack down fascist warmongers.
I'll comfort myself with that when we're sat huddling around a candle to keep warm because the price of gas as gone through the roof, all due to getting involved in other people's business which doesn't concern us. It probably won't really worry a champagne socialist like yourself will it?
Slightly off topic, but how can someone get away with calling another poster a bellend.
Surely that is against forum protocol.
And so is trolling, but folk get away with it
Accusations on here of trolling are subjective and largely false.
Calling someone an ‘utter bell end’ is nothing short of pathetic. The great one blocks people for less.
Hats off to Axholme for not being dragged down to such levels of immaturity and ignorance, despite the provocation.
The thing here Belton is that because Filos leader is the most prolific poster on the forum, then it is reasonable to expect that he will get the most responses, particularly given that many of his posts are designed to provoke a reaction.
However, invariably, whenever anyone writes something that isn’t in agreement then Filo piles in, probably to gain some brownie points, and accuses others of being a troll.
Of course when bst constantly jumps onto posts by another posters, like BrantonRed for example, then good old Filo never says a word.
I have agreed with bst on some things and I have clicked the like button on his posts too but for some reason that isn’t trolling, apparently.
I completely agree
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Well as they say, “ if the cap fits”
I never mentioned a name, but two found the need to comment, I was just pointing out that trolling is against forum protocol, nothing more, nothing less, if you are going to call out protocol, you need to call out all of them, just for balance, cos I know you like the quote “Just for balance”
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Well as they say, “ if the cap fits”
I never mentioned a name, but two found the need to comment, I was just pointing out that trolling is against forum protocol, nothing more, nothing less, if you are going to call out protocol, you need to call out all of them, just for balance, cos I know you like the quote “Just for balance”
You didn’t have to mention a name did you.
It is beyond reasonable doubt who you were referring to this time and all the other times that you have piled in when accusing me and others of trolling.
You are probably the poster who actually does that to me.
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Back on topic Putin no doubt things he can afford to ride out economic sanctions due to support from his ally China which over the last 25 years has grown to be an economic superpower.
Mass purchase of Chinese manufactured goods by people in the West has indirectly funded this upcoming war and resulting bloodshed.
It's sadly not always possible but I always try to ensure as much as possible of what I buy is manufactured in democracies.
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Well as they say, “ if the cap fits”
I never mentioned a name, but two found the need to comment, I was just pointing out that trolling is against forum protocol, nothing more, nothing less, if you are going to call out protocol, you need to call out all of them, just for balance, cos I know you like the quote “Just for balance”
Two found the need to comment?
What do you expect to happen on a forum?
If I’d commented that you were an ‘utter bell end’, then you might have a point, but you seem to be okay with that.
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Of course I'm not itching for war you utter bell end. But a war has been started by a fascist dictator. One that you admire and never criticise.
And history tells you what happens if you don't smack down fascist warmongers.
I'll comfort myself with that when we're sat huddling around a candle to keep warm because the price of gas as gone through the roof, all due to getting involved in other people's business which doesn't concern us. It probably won't really worry a champagne socialist like yourself will it?
Slightly off topic, but how can someone get away with calling another poster a bellend.
Surely that is against forum protocol.
Because it's 'his' forum maybe?
He can say what he wants, i don't care.
For the record, I called you a bell end for your insistence that I WANT a war in which tens, maybe hundreds of thousands would die. In my universe, accusing someone of being so oblivious to human life is a far bigger personal insult than any name calling. Fascinating how some folk have different moral compasses.
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Back on topic I can see that BA are still operating flights to Moscow. Tomorrow for instance from Heathrow.
Surely airlines around the world should look to sanction Russia by limiting the ability of its people to get around.
Why target just the wealthy? Whilst they hold a lot of power and influence, there would be no better way to alienate his own people from him by banning international travel in and out of Russia.
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Back on topic I can see that BA are still operating flights to Moscow. Tomorrow for instance from Heathrow.
Surely airlines around the world should look to sanction Russia by limiting the ability of its people to get around.
Why target just the wealthy? Whilst they hold a lot of power and influence, there would be no better way to alienate his own people from him by banning international travel in and out of Russia.
Why should airlines have to take the lead when the government could quite easily do it for them but don’t.
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This is not a very nice thing to say about johnson is it?
''These pathetic sanctions won’t hurt Putin. He’ll be laughing all the way to his dacha''
''Johnson keeps on saying that we are going to have a public register of beneficial ownership of UK property, so that shell companies owning swaths of UK property can’t hide their oligarch owners. Yet the government has been promising this for years – and Companies House still doesn’t have the power or the resources to verify information registered with it, so it’s easy to lie with impunity.
Johnson says they are closing the gold-plated tier 1 visa scheme for wealthy “investors”, but he still won’t tell us how many oligarchs were granted rights here without a proper examination of where their wealth came from. It’s difficult not to worry that the Russians who have given money to the Tories can have done so only because they were given UK nationality by the Tories. In any other country we would call that corruption''
''We need much tougher, wider sanctions. We need reform of Companies House so we know the truth behind shell companies. We need a new Foreign Lobbying Act, reform to the Official Secrets Act and the immediate publication of the review into tier 1 visas''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/22/vladimir-putin-ukraine-sanctions-boris-johnson
johnson is a jellyfish
Would you like to tell us who started the " Golden Visa Scheme " Sydney ?
I'll give you a clue , it began in 2008 .
:headbang: :headbang: :headbang:
Maybe that's why you don't make a lot of sense tyke, banging your head too much, tell me who was responsible for implementing it since they came to power?
Don't be like that Sydney because your party will soon be chasing any donations that they are lucky enough to be offered .
Unite Union considering pulling funding given Keith's lack of support for the Coventry bin drivers dispute .
Change the subject why don't you tyke, caught out again, Brown brought the visas in as part if his work to boost the economy, but in your little britain brain of blaming labour for everything you are the first fool to rush in every time.
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Back on topic I can see that BA are still operating flights to Moscow. Tomorrow for instance from Heathrow.
Surely airlines around the world should look to sanction Russia by limiting the ability of its people to get around.
Why target just the wealthy? Whilst they hold a lot of power and influence, there would be no better way to alienate his own people from him by banning international travel in and out of Russia.
Why should airlines have to take the lead when the government could quite easily do it for them but don’t.
Airlines are already taking steps by cancelling flights to Ukraine, but that’s to protect planes and people. But they are still happy to fly to the aggressor nation. It just seems a bit daft.
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Back on topic I can see that BA are still operating flights to Moscow. Tomorrow for instance from Heathrow.
Surely airlines around the world should look to sanction Russia by limiting the ability of its people to get around.
Why target just the wealthy? Whilst they hold a lot of power and influence, there would be no better way to alienate his own people from him by banning international travel in and out of Russia.
Why should airlines have to take the lead when the government could quite easily do it for them but don’t.
Airlines are already taking steps by cancelling flights to Ukraine, but that’s to protect planes and people. But they are still happy to fly to the aggressor nation. It just seems a bit daft.
The Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was shot down over Ukraine. Perhaps that's a good enough reason.
The airlines will wait for direction as ultimately people need ferrying around.
And their freedom to overfly countries is protected.
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Shot down by who, though?
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Back on topic I can see that BA are still operating flights to Moscow. Tomorrow for instance from Heathrow.
Surely airlines around the world should look to sanction Russia by limiting the ability of its people to get around.
Why target just the wealthy? Whilst they hold a lot of power and influence, there would be no better way to alienate his own people from him by banning international travel in and out of Russia.
Why should airlines have to take the lead when the government could quite easily do it for them but don’t.
Airlines are already taking steps by cancelling flights to Ukraine, but that’s to protect planes and people. But they are still happy to fly to the aggressor nation. It just seems a bit daft.
Not really; nobody is going to be invading Russia or waging war there; we would be at war; do you suggest they stop flying planes to the UK?
You suggested it should be done as a sanction; sanctions are the governments job. Can you imagine what might happen if airlines started making themselves political targets?
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I see Liz is now saying any English team who gets to the CL final in St Petersburg should boycott it
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She also suggested that the final shouldn’t go ahead in St Petersburg and that it should be switched to another venue.
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GAZPROM have got their feet very well under the UEFA table to the tune of tens of millions. It will be very interesting to see how UEFA deal with this as they would stand to lose biblical sums of money if GAZPROM pulled their sponsorship.
Another example of Russians buying influence and favour.
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Nice to see Germany’s Bild newspaper is refusing to show fc shalke sponsor GAZPROM in pics. Instead placing a photoshopped message about Ukraine over it.
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I see Liz is now saying any English team who gets to the CL final in St Petersburg should boycott it
so they are saying boycott and move it?
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I see Liz is now saying any English team who gets to the CL final in St Petersburg should boycott it
Yet she was happy enough to allow the Winter Olympics in China?
And go to a fundraising party with the wife of Putin's ex-finance minster?
Start doing things instead of posturing about them Liz.
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From the Guardian.
Uefa is ready to drop St Petersburg as the venue for this year’s Champions League final, but has yet to take a decision, as the military crisis in Ukraine deepens.
The final of Europe’s most prestigious club competition is due to be played in Russia’s second-largest city on 28 May but Uefa finds itself under increasing pressure to move the venue after Russia’s president, Vladimir Putin, announced a decision to send troops into Ukraine’s eastern Donbas region.
Officials, including Uefa’s president, Alexander Ceferin, were in discussions over the location of the match on Tuesday. The Champions League final has been moved, because of Covid, in both of the past two seasons.
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Russian separatists in Donetsk staging farcically bad videos claiming to show attacks by Ukraine forces. Here is a video supposedly showing someone who has had his leg blown off. Except there's no blood and there is clear evidence of him already having prosthetic attachments.
https://mobile.twitter.com/OAlexanderDK/status/1495736730548322310
Not even remotely plausible, but this will be the sort of justification used for a Russian attack. And some Putin fan boys here will say Russia is just being defensive.
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Well the Russians have invaded, time to boot out all the dodgy Russians in this Country and confiscate all their UK assets, and for NATO to make it clear that put one step on NATO soil and it’s full scale military confrontation, Belarus must also be sanctioned, the free world can not allow this to happen
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Well the Russians have invaded, time to boot out all the dodgy Russians in this Country and confiscate all their UK assets, and for NATO to make it clear that put one step on NATO soil and it’s full scale military confrontation, Belarus must also be sanctioned, the free world can not allow this to happen
The West caused the whole situation over the past thirty years by breaking promises about eastern expansion of Nato.
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Well the Russians have invaded, time to boot out all the dodgy Russians in this Country and confiscate all their UK assets, and for NATO to make it clear that put one step on NATO soil and it’s full scale military confrontation, Belarus must also be sanctioned, the free world can not allow this to happen
The West caused the whole situation over the past thirty years by breaking promises about eastern expansion of Nato.
Says the forum's number one putin apologist
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Well the Russians have invaded, time to boot out all the dodgy Russians in this Country and confiscate all their UK assets, and for NATO to make it clear that put one step on NATO soil and it’s full scale military confrontation, Belarus must also be sanctioned, the free world can not allow this to happen
The West caused the whole situation over the past thirty years by breaking promises about eastern expansion of Nato.
How can you possibly be still defending a bloke that has just started a totally unnecessary war that could lead to the death of millions.
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Well the Russians have invaded, time to boot out all the dodgy Russians in this Country and confiscate all their UK assets, and for NATO to make it clear that put one step on NATO soil and it’s full scale military confrontation, Belarus must also be sanctioned, the free world can not allow this to happen
The West caused the whole situation over the past thirty years by breaking promises about eastern expansion of Nato.
Every sovereign Country as the right to determine it’s own future, the biggest mistake Ukraine made was trusting the Russians word and giving their Nukes to them, if Ukraine had Nukes the madman that is Putin would not have been so bold, how you can defend unprovoked aggression is beyond me
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Well the Russians have invaded, time to boot out all the dodgy Russians in this Country and confiscate all their UK assets, and for NATO to make it clear that put one step on NATO soil and it’s full scale military confrontation, Belarus must also be sanctioned, the free world can not allow this to happen
The West caused the whole situation over the past thirty years by breaking promises about eastern expansion of Nato.
Every sovereign Country as the right to determine it’s own future, the biggest mistake Ukraine made was trusting the Russians word and giving their Nukes to them, if Ukraine had Nukes the madman that is Putin would not have been so bold, how you can defend unprovoked aggression is beyond me
Like bombing Sarajevo, Libya, Iraq. Oh yes Nato are really trustworthy. People in glass houses...
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Well the Russians have invaded, time to boot out all the dodgy Russians in this Country and confiscate all their UK assets, and for NATO to make it clear that put one step on NATO soil and it’s full scale military confrontation, Belarus must also be sanctioned, the free world can not allow this to happen
The West caused the whole situation over the past thirty years by breaking promises about eastern expansion of Nato.
Every sovereign Country as the right to determine it’s own future, the biggest mistake Ukraine made was trusting the Russians word and giving their Nukes to them, if Ukraine had Nukes the madman that is Putin would not have been so bold, how you can defend unprovoked aggression is beyond me
Like bombing Sarajevo, Libya, Iraq. Oh yes Nato are really trustworthy. People in glass houses...
Iraq wasn't NATO was it? Both Sarajevo and Libya had United Nations backing. You're choosing to die on a very odd hill here I must say. There can be no excuses for what Putin has just done. If countries want to join NATO, they shouldn't be excluded by how close they are to a certain country. Does Putin not realise that his actions will cause NATO to close ranks and for other countries close to his border to accelerate their applications to join NATO.
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Well the Russians have invaded, time to boot out all the dodgy Russians in this Country and confiscate all their UK assets, and for NATO to make it clear that put one step on NATO soil and it’s full scale military confrontation, Belarus must also be sanctioned, the free world can not allow this to happen
The West caused the whole situation over the past thirty years by breaking promises about eastern expansion of Nato.
Every sovereign Country as the right to determine it’s own future, the biggest mistake Ukraine made was trusting the Russians word and giving their Nukes to them, if Ukraine had Nukes the madman that is Putin would not have been so bold, how you can defend unprovoked aggression is beyond me
Like bombing Sarajevo, Libya, Iraq. Oh yes Nato are really trustworthy. People in glass houses...
United Nations, NATO has only ever attacked the Taliban regime in Afgan in the War on Terror
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Well, the shit has hit the fan now. The news all over are reporting Invasion this morning with deaths at Ukrainian Miltary bases being mentioned. Putin urging Ukrainian to lay down their arms.
That’s not going to happen. Worrying times ahead. This is not what the world needs right now.
This all started long ago with the breakup of the old USSR. In many ways it’s not dissimilar to the breakup of the Bosnia Herzegovina situation.
That’s doesn’t make it right of course.
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Well the Russians have invaded, time to boot out all the dodgy Russians in this Country and confiscate all their UK assets, and for NATO to make it clear that put one step on NATO soil and it’s full scale military confrontation, Belarus must also be sanctioned, the free world can not allow this to happen
The West caused the whole situation over the past thirty years by breaking promises about eastern expansion of Nato.
Wow, it's amazing what views can be held in 2022.
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The talk of joining NATO and the EU has been the problem whether right or wrong, I firmly believe that people should have the right of self determination, but the EU and NATO have misread the situation and have not stood up when they had the better of the situation.
I would say they have had too much trust in basically a mad man, but they are to blame for taking their eye off the ball and over the last ten years pushing and pontificating strutting about without taking action.
The Germans and every other nation have got into bed with Putin to an extent when their existence of being in the modern world for energy has been turned over to Russia. The doves and save the earth nuts have to be thanked for the destruction of alternative energy recourses that would have served for years, mainly to take power from unions and into politicians hands, and from nationalised companies into greedy individual hands.
Well this is what you get for being nice, giving power to the doves and save the Earth wallas, reducing expenditure on defence, not paying your way to Nato ( stand up the big hitters in the EU) and trying to be what you are not.
Bang goes that theory about the EU stopping wars in Europe then.
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Well the Russians have invaded, time to boot out all the dodgy Russians in this Country and confiscate all their UK assets, and for NATO to make it clear that put one step on NATO soil and it’s full scale military confrontation, Belarus must also be sanctioned, the free world can not allow this to happen
The West caused the whole situation over the past thirty years by breaking promises about eastern expansion of Nato.
The bombing was NATO's second major combat operation, following the 1995 bombing campaign in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was the first time that NATO had used military force without the expressed endorsement of the UN Security Council, which triggered debates over the legitimacy of the intervention.
Every sovereign Country as the right to determine it’s own future, the biggest mistake Ukraine made was trusting the Russians word and giving their Nukes to them, if Ukraine had Nukes the madman that is Putin would not have been so bold, how you can defend unprovoked aggression is beyond me
Like bombing Sarajevo, Libya, Iraq. Oh yes Nato are really trustworthy. People in glass houses...
United Nations, NATO has only ever attacked the Taliban regime in Afgan in the War on Terror
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Well, the shit has hit the fan now. The news all over are reporting Invasion this morning with deaths at Ukrainian Miltary bases being mentioned. Putin urging Ukrainian to lay down their arms.
That’s not going to happen. Worrying times ahead. This is not what the world needs right now.
This all started long ago with the breakup of the old USSR. In many ways it’s not dissimilar to the breakup of the Bosnia Herzegovina situation.
That’s doesn’t make it right of course.
It's more bizarre as they are so closely linked. Ukrainians living in Russia, Russians living freely in Ukraine. Families torn apart across a sovereign border. I can only believe that Putin is hoping they lay their weapons down, but I fear the return to Putin's idealistic form of old Russia will not be tolerated and so many innocent people will die on the whim of a mad man.
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The talk of joining NATO and the EU has been the problem whether right or wrong, I firmly believe that people should have the right of self determination, but the EU and NATO have misread the situation and have not stood up when they had the better of the situation.
I would say they have had too much trust in basically a mad man, but they are to blame for taking their eye off the ball and over the last ten years pushing and pontificating strutting about without taking action.
The Germans and every other nation have got into bed with Putin to an extent when their existence of being in the modern world for energy has been turned over to Russia. The doves and save the earth nuts have to be thanked for the destruction of alternative energy recourses that would have served for years, mainly to take power from unions and into politicians hands, and from nationalised companies into greedy individual hands.
Well this is what you get for being nice, giving power to the doves and save the Earth wallas, reducing expenditure on defence, not paying your way to Nato ( stand up the big hitters in the EU) and trying to be what you are not.
Bang goes that theory about the EU stopping wars in Europe then.
The EU engineered the overthrow of the legitimate government in Ukraine. I hope they're happy when their next gas bill comes. Fill your cars up, £2 a litre soon, thanks Boris and Sleepy Joe. They could have solved the whole issue peacefully but they backed Ruusia into a corner and gave them no option.
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The talk of joining NATO and the EU has been the problem whether right or wrong, I firmly believe that people should have the right of self determination, but the EU and NATO have misread the situation and have not stood up when they had the better of the situation.
I would say they have had too much trust in basically a mad man, but they are to blame for taking their eye off the ball and over the last ten years pushing and pontificating strutting about without taking action.
The Germans and every other nation have got into bed with Putin to an extent when their existence of being in the modern world for energy has been turned over to Russia. The doves and save the earth nuts have to be thanked for the destruction of alternative energy recourses that would have served for years, mainly to take power from unions and into politicians hands, and from nationalised companies into greedy individual hands.
Well this is what you get for being nice, giving power to the doves and save the Earth wallas, reducing expenditure on defence, not paying your way to Nato ( stand up the big hitters in the EU) and trying to be what you are not.
Bang goes that theory about the EU stopping wars in Europe then.
Apologist number 2 at work here, believing and accepting what the madman putin says as gospel
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Hands up those blaming Nato have been regular listeners to RT and have quoted the output on this forum?
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Hands up those blaming Nato have been regular listeners to RT and have quoted the output on this forum?
I'd be more concerned about the diet of woke, pc, anti brexit poison spewed out by the BBC over the past few years. The BBC is a sick, decadent organisation with no values, pretty much like most Western governments nowadays.
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It was always coming.
This has been Putin's objective for a longtime I think.
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Hands up those blaming Nato have been regular listeners to RT and have quoted the output on this forum?
I'd be more concerned about the diet of woke, pc, anti brexit poison spewed out by the BBC over the past few years. The BBC is a sick, decadent organisation with no values, pretty much like most Western governments nowadays.
The invasion of a sovereign country. War in Europe.
And you are wittering on about the BBC?
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It was always coming.
This has been Putin's objective for a longtime I think.
This
The disintegration of the former USSR is intolerable to a former KGB agent, it has been his sole objective since then
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Hands up those blaming Nato have been regular listeners to RT and have quoted the output on this forum?
I'd be more concerned about the diet of woke, pc, anti brexit poison spewed out by the BBC over the past few years. The BBC is a sick, decadent organisation with no values, pretty much like most Western governments nowadays.
What values do you hold dear if I might ask? Surely self determination and democracy?
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Well the Russians have invaded, time to boot out all the dodgy Russians in this Country and confiscate all their UK assets, and for NATO to make it clear that put one step on NATO soil and it’s full scale military confrontation, Belarus must also be sanctioned, the free world can not allow this to happen
The West caused the whole situation over the past thirty years by breaking promises about eastern expansion of Nato.
The bombing was NATO's second major combat operation, following the 1995 bombing campaign in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was the first time that NATO had used military force without the expressed endorsement of the UN Security Council, which triggered debates over the legitimacy of the intervention.
Every sovereign Country as the right to determine it’s own future, the biggest mistake Ukraine made was trusting the Russians word and giving their Nukes to them, if Ukraine had Nukes the madman that is Putin would not have been so bold, how you can defend unprovoked aggression is beyond me
Like bombing Sarajevo, Libya, Iraq. Oh yes Nato are really trustworthy. People in glass houses...
United Nations, NATO has only ever attacked the Taliban regime in Afgan in the War on Terror
You mention trustworthy, only days ago Russia said they had no intention of invading Ukraine, Putin and Russia can not be trusted
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In the coming weeks and months , it will be the country formerly known as Ukraine.
It will, again, become part of Russia. Which many within Ukraine want.
Just like Bosnia, the fight between Serbo Croats and Bosnians, will be between pro Russian Ukrainians allied with Russians and those that are against them.
Putin will not entertain any dialogue from the UN and certainly not NATO. He has made that clear.
If NATO get involved in this, god forbid, then you can kiss your ass goodbye.
The outcome will be catastrophic.
Third World War, and then some.
My suggestion, for what it’s worth, is let him get on with it. Impose the very strictest sanctions on the whole of Russia.alienate the whole country. Travel bans, no fly zones, economic penalties, wealthy individuals (including abramovic) the whole nine yards.
Then Bolster forces in Eastern Europe again. Because if he gets away with it in Ukraine, which he will, then next with be Latvia, lithuania and Estonia.
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That's broadly the approach already NR.
And continue to arm the Ukraine resistance
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British troops no doubt to be deployed in Poland in future. I spent 5 very happy years living in Germany in the 90’s as part of the BAOR. Both my sons were born there in fact. Sad to see that British troops are very very few now over there. It was a mistake drawing back from there .
I can see Poland becoming the next big overseas deployment area . For decades perhaps. That’s not all bad. Good beer in Poland. Hot summers. But bloody cold winters .
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The price of oil has just broken $100 a barrel.
Things might start getting very expensive.
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Well the Russians have invaded, time to boot out all the dodgy Russians in this Country and confiscate all their UK assets, and for NATO to make it clear that put one step on NATO soil and it’s full scale military confrontation, Belarus must also be sanctioned, the free world can not allow this to happen
The West caused the whole situation over the past thirty years by breaking promises about eastern expansion of Nato.
The bombing was NATO's second major combat operation, following the 1995 bombing campaign in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was the first time that NATO had used military force without the expressed endorsement of the UN Security Council, which triggered debates over the legitimacy of the intervention.
Every sovereign Country as the right to determine it’s own future, the biggest mistake Ukraine made was trusting the Russians word and giving their Nukes to them, if Ukraine had Nukes the madman that is Putin would not have been so bold, how you can defend unprovoked aggression is beyond me
Like bombing Sarajevo, Libya, Iraq. Oh yes Nato are really trustworthy. People in glass houses...
United Nations, NATO has only ever attacked the Taliban regime in Afgan in the War on Terror
You mention trustworthy, only days ago Russia said they had no intention of invading Ukraine, Putin and Russia can not be trusted
Donbass and Luhansk is not Ukraine.
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Hands up those blaming Nato have been regular listeners to RT and have quoted the output on this forum?
I'd be more concerned about the diet of woke, pc, anti brexit poison spewed out by the BBC over the past few years. The BBC is a sick, decadent organisation with no values, pretty much like most Western governments nowadays.
The invasion of a sovereign country. War in Europe.
And you are wittering on about the BBC?
Take it up with Sydney he started it.
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Well the Russians have invaded, time to boot out all the dodgy Russians in this Country and confiscate all their UK assets, and for NATO to make it clear that put one step on NATO soil and it’s full scale military confrontation, Belarus must also be sanctioned, the free world can not allow this to happen
The West caused the whole situation over the past thirty years by breaking promises about eastern expansion of Nato.
The bombing was NATO's second major combat operation, following the 1995 bombing campaign in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was the first time that NATO had used military force without the expressed endorsement of the UN Security Council, which triggered debates over the legitimacy of the intervention.
Every sovereign Country as the right to determine it’s own future, the biggest mistake Ukraine made was trusting the Russians word and giving their Nukes to them, if Ukraine had Nukes the madman that is Putin would not have been so bold, how you can defend unprovoked aggression is beyond me
Like bombing Sarajevo, Libya, Iraq. Oh yes Nato are really trustworthy. People in glass houses...
United Nations, NATO has only ever attacked the Taliban regime in Afgan in the War on Terror
You mention trustworthy, only days ago Russia said they had no intention of invading Ukraine, Putin and Russia can not be trusted
Donbass and Luhansk is not Ukraine.
AL , with the greatest respect, the movement of Russian troops this morning is not just in these areas. There are troop movements into Ukraine from Belarus in the north, which is hundreds of kilometres from Luhansk and Donbas. And very close to Kyiv.
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I’d like to see the uk govt and Eu govts impose a complete flight ban on all airlines in and out of russia. With immediate effect.
And a complete no fly zone of any russian airlines over Europe / uk airspace.
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Because if he gets away with it in Ukraine, which he will, then next with be Latvia, lithuania and Estonia.
IMO, he wouldn't be so mad as to go into a NATO country. The fact that Ukraine isn't part of the NATO group has made this an easy win for him.
NATO is already bolstering forces in NATO states bordering Russia and Belarus and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see British forces deployed permanently in many of these. I hope that Belarus is also sanctioned as part of the process - they have been complicit in these actions also and their despot leader Lukashenko needs to feel a boot in the jacksie also...
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Hands up those blaming Nato have been regular listeners to RT and have quoted the output on this forum?
I'd be more concerned about the diet of woke, pc, anti brexit poison spewed out by the BBC over the past few years. The BBC is a sick, decadent organisation with no values, pretty much like most Western governments nowadays.
The invasion of a sovereign country. War in Europe.
And you are wittering on about the BBC?
Take it up with Sydney he started it.
The bbc is run and owned by a democratic nation whereas RT is the propaganda arm of a dictator that has his opponents murdered.
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We gave Putin the green light when NATO said they would not put troops into Ukraine to help defend against any invasion
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No I don't think he would attack NATO unless he's gone completely Tonto.
I think he sees Ukraine as belonging to Russia and needs to move before it does join NATO. That was his fear.
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I see the Ukrainian govt has authorised that anyone can now take up arms.
I can see there being some freedom fighter tourism into Ukraine.
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Well the Russians have invaded, time to boot out all the dodgy Russians in this Country and confiscate all their UK assets, and for NATO to make it clear that put one step on NATO soil and it’s full scale military confrontation, Belarus must also be sanctioned, the free world can not allow this to happen
The West caused the whole situation over the past thirty years by breaking promises about eastern expansion of Nato.
The bombing was NATO's second major combat operation, following the 1995 bombing campaign in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was the first time that NATO had used military force without the expressed endorsement of the UN Security Council, which triggered debates over the legitimacy of the intervention.
Every sovereign Country as the right to determine it’s own future, the biggest mistake Ukraine made was trusting the Russians word and giving their Nukes to them, if Ukraine had Nukes the madman that is Putin would not have been so bold, how you can defend unprovoked aggression is beyond me
Like bombing Sarajevo, Libya, Iraq. Oh yes Nato are really trustworthy. People in glass houses...
United Nations, NATO has only ever attacked the Taliban regime in Afgan in the War on Terror
You mention trustworthy, only days ago Russia said they had no intention of invading Ukraine, Putin and Russia can not be trusted
Donbass and Luhansk is not Ukraine.
Like having a Putin megaphone in here.
I've said before, this person would have supported Hitler. He's showing us why here. Absolutely disgraceful.
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the rouble is tanking and will have to be propped up
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The irony BST that you campaigned door to door to have the worlds biggest Russian apologist elected PM
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Back on topic I can see that BA are still operating flights to Moscow. Tomorrow for instance from Heathrow.
Surely airlines around the world should look to sanction Russia by limiting the ability of its people to get around.
Why target just the wealthy? Whilst they hold a lot of power and influence, there would be no better way to alienate his own people from him by banning international travel in and out of Russia.
Why should airlines have to take the lead when the government could quite easily do it for them but don’t.
Airlines are already taking steps by cancelling flights to Ukraine, but that’s to protect planes and people. But they are still happy to fly to the aggressor nation. It just seems a bit daft.
The Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was shot down over Ukraine. Perhaps that's a good enough reason.
The airlines will wait for direction as ultimately people need ferrying around.
And their freedom to overfly countries is protected.
Are you suggesting that Ukraine shot down the plane?
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The irony BST that you campaigned door to door to have the worlds biggest Russian apologist elected PM
Alternatively, a lot of people on here will have voted for a party that accepts millions in donations from Russian Oligarchs as well as aggressively pursuing a Brexit that has disrupted European unity - benefiting the Russians.
Very few people can claim to be perfectly innocent over this.
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No one can, and therefore the saying ppl in glass houses springs to mind. Especially when a poster on here is being attacked for been a Russian apologist by a mob who voted for one!!!
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And presided over the renaming of the capital around the world as Londongrad
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No one can, and therefore the saying ppl in glass houses springs to mind. Especially when a poster on here is being attacked for been a Russian apologist by a mob who voted for one!!!
Corbyn never accepted money on behalf of the labour party from Russia.
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I don’t believe I said he had. But thanks for clarifying things I haven’t said
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It appears you need to be reminded because it's one thing talking about it in opposition to actually being in power and giving the mob the keys to the city aye?
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No I’m pointing out the hypocrisy of people hounding AL when they voted for someone who was the same that’s all
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Here we go - yet another thread derailed...... can't we keep to the thread theme for once.
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No I’m pointing out the hypocrisy of people hounding AL when they voted for someone who was the same that’s all
not the same, but believe what you wish. Corbyn was a dill but didn't hide anything yet you want to equate him with jellyback and the government that has actually financed their party through donations and killed off any inquiry into the mob's interference in brexit or the election.
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No as usual you choose to misrepresent what I have said. I’m comparing Corbyns views on Russia to ALs and condemning as hypocritical those that condemn AL but were happy to see Corbyn as PM. You’re better than this lying Syd. See what I am saying and attack on that if you choose but don’t try and drag me into your agenda because as I have stated numerous times I Think all politicians at all levels representing any party are kitsons
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It's a very interesting take when it's the right thats said to be to close to Russia.....
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It's a very interesting take when it's the right thats said to be to close to Russia.....
Not ''said to be'' pud are close to Russian taking their money and covering their collective arses.
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Well the Russians have invaded, time to boot out all the dodgy Russians in this Country and confiscate all their UK assets, and for NATO to make it clear that put one step on NATO soil and it’s full scale military confrontation, Belarus must also be sanctioned, the free world can not allow this to happen
The West caused the whole situation over the past thirty years by breaking promises about eastern expansion of Nato.
The bombing was NATO's second major combat operation, following the 1995 bombing campaign in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was the first time that NATO had used military force without the expressed endorsement of the UN Security Council, which triggered debates over the legitimacy of the intervention.
Every sovereign Country as the right to determine it’s own future, the biggest mistake Ukraine made was trusting the Russians word and giving their Nukes to them, if Ukraine had Nukes the madman that is Putin would not have been so bold, how you can defend unprovoked aggression is beyond me
Like bombing Sarajevo, Libya, Iraq. Oh yes Nato are really trustworthy. People in glass houses...
United Nations, NATO has only ever attacked the Taliban regime in Afgan in the War on Terror
You mention trustworthy, only days ago Russia said they had no intention of invading Ukraine, Putin and Russia can not be trusted
Donbass and Luhansk is not Ukraine.
Like having a Putin megaphone in here.
I've said before, this person would have supported Hitler. He's showing us why here. Absolutely disgraceful.
Go away silly boy.
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For those suggesting we post British forces overseas we only have 80 thousand now, The Ukraine have about 140 thousand are on home soil and who would bet it will be over in more than 2weeks and Putin will have other armies in reserve bigger than ours.
We had a chance and let them get up off the floor when they were down, saw their natural recourses as a cheap alternative to ours, little realising that eventually when we had closed down industries, and reduced our armed forces, the boot would be on the other foot.
Well you reap what you sow, we are a play thing now depending on the USA for proper protection, have caved in to a new light touch education and civil movement, and have ended up with a core of educated idiots ruling the roost, spouting S**T. and not being able to see as far as their own nose ends where all this is leading to.
Countries like North Korea and Iran have run rings around us for years, Russia can just blow us away that is reality and we have only ourselves to blame.
I wonder how many would sit in front of the tanks on a motorway? that probably would be our tactics.
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the rouble is tanking and will have to be propped up
The rouble has been in steady decline over the last 5 years.
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No as usual you choose to misrepresent what I have said. I’m comparing Corbyns views on Russia to ALs and condemning as hypocritical those that condemn AL but were happy to see Corbyn as PM. You’re better than this lying Syd. See what I am saying and attack on that if you choose but don’t try and drag me into your agenda because as I have stated numerous times I Think all politicians at all levels representing any party are kitsons
I don't happen to share your batty view that all politicians are the same, you've said it often enough maybe it's time to prove it.
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Why would I even consider justifying my opinion to anyone? I don’t care if you agree or not, what you think is of little consequence, I don’t mean that in an antagonistic way it’s just a fact mate
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Well the Russians have invaded, time to boot out all the dodgy Russians in this Country and confiscate all their UK assets, and for NATO to make it clear that put one step on NATO soil and it’s full scale military confrontation, Belarus must also be sanctioned, the free world can not allow this to happen
The West caused the whole situation over the past thirty years by breaking promises about eastern expansion of Nato.
The bombing was NATO's second major combat operation, following the 1995 bombing campaign in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was the first time that NATO had used military force without the expressed endorsement of the UN Security Council, which triggered debates over the legitimacy of the intervention.
Every sovereign Country as the right to determine it’s own future, the biggest mistake Ukraine made was trusting the Russians word and giving their Nukes to them, if Ukraine had Nukes the madman that is Putin would not have been so bold, how you can defend unprovoked aggression is beyond me
Like bombing Sarajevo, Libya, Iraq. Oh yes Nato are really trustworthy. People in glass houses...
United Nations, NATO has only ever attacked the Taliban regime in Afgan in the War on Terror
You mention trustworthy, only days ago Russia said they had no intention of invading Ukraine, Putin and Russia can not be trusted
Donbass and Luhansk is not Ukraine.
AL , with the greatest respect, the movement of Russian troops this morning is not just in these areas. There are troop movements into Ukraine from Belarus in the north, which is hundreds of kilometres from Luhansk and Donbas. And very close to Kyiv.
I would imagine they are trying to nullify the Ukraine military threat to their activity in the said regions. I doubt it will be a permanent occupation. I don't think that's what want. Protection of the new republics and a buffer zone of a non aligned Ukraine to the west seems a fair result. All this could have been achieved without violence but no one in the west was listening. All totally avoidable.
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the rouble is tanking and will have to be propped up
The rouble has been in steady decline over the last 5 years.
''Rouble falls to all-time low
The Russian central bank will step into the market to support the rouble, it said on Thursday, as the currency crashed to an all-time low, Reuters reports.
Moscow correspondent Pjotr Sauer writes that cash exchange points in the Russian capital have stopped trading roubles for dollars and euros. At a popular exchange point on the Tverskaya street the office manager said that they stopped converting roubles “two hours ago” as the Russian currency further spirals.
Here are the key points on the rouble’s slide from Reuters:''
the Guardian live
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Good shout from a pm in Ukraine.
Kick out any sons and daughters of any oligarchs who are currently studying in european universities.
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the rouble is tanking and will have to be propped up
The rouble has been in steady decline over the last 5 years.
''Rouble falls to all-time low
The Russian central bank will step into the market to support the rouble, it said on Thursday, as the currency crashed to an all-time low, Reuters reports.
Moscow correspondent Pjotr Sauer writes that cash exchange points in the Russian capital have stopped trading roubles for dollars and euros. At a popular exchange point on the Tverskaya street the office manager said that they stopped converting roubles “two hours ago” as the Russian currency further spirals.
Here are the key points on the rouble’s slide from Reuters:''
the Guardian live
Putin and co will have factored this in. They will have hoarded foreign currency to insulate themselves from sanctions. Probably since 2014.They will go cap in hand to the Chinese if need be. Russia is prepared to take the hit, and will have plans to deal with this .
I cannot imagine Putin would not have expected this.
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Rouble for last 5 days.
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And last 5 years.
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Dropped nearly 10% of it's value to an all time low and then propped up, but agreed it has been in a steady decline.
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Brent crude trading at just under $105 now.
Glad I filled up yesterday.
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David Davis has just said the RAF should give the Ukrainians air support.
Madness.
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Ffs. Rolls Royce shares have tanked 20% overnight .
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David Davis has just said the RAF should give the Ukrainians air support.
Madness.
That Tobias Elwood had a rush of blood to the head also earlier suggesting we should deploy troops into Ukraine. What a whopper.
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''Russian ratings agency ACRA estimates that the country's banks imported $5 billion worth of banknotes in foreign currencies in December, up from $2.65 billion a year before, in a pre-emptive step in case of sanctions that create increased demand''
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/02/21/business/russian-banks-foreign-cash-sanctions/index.html#:~:text=Russian%20ratings%20agency%20ACRA%20estimates,sanctions%20that%20create%20increased%20demand.
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The bombing was NATO's second major combat operation, following the 1995 bombing campaign in Bosnia and Herzegovina. It was the first time that NATO had used military force without the expressed endorsement of the UN Security Council, which triggered debates over the legitimacy of the intervention.
Axholme - full context has to be applied here. Anything else is misleading, dangerous and insulting.
NATO Operation Deliberate Force in 1995 was launched in response to Bosnian-Serb atrocities like the Srebenica massacre and specifically and directly following the deadly mortar attack on Sarajevo marketplace on 28 August 1995. It was targeted mainly on Bosnian-Serb Air Defence Systems and infrastructure, and led directly to the Dayton Accords which instigated peace and subsequent successful NATO peacekeeping operations (IFOR/SFOR) which over time allowed peace and stability to return to Bosnia and the end of the terrible reign of Karadzic and Mladic. This has rightly been hailed as a great success and saving and improving many many lives.
It is something I followed particularly closely for a very long time.
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I just want to say I have been reading all the comments and not one ounce of empathy for the innocent population of Ukraine. Only your own petty squabbling, in safe old Donny/UK and how it will effect you, shame!!. How many of you know what stress they are under? How many of you actually have hear or witness war as a civilian? (I am aware several are ex-military, I don't include you) I have and in the last 2 weeks here are home in the BARMM region of Mindanao, I have hear the thud that mortars, the sound of a 50mm tank mounted gun. Actually carrying an assault rifle? I am not looking for response or anything else, just be glad it aint you as you sit down to your tea and Emmerdale.
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Jens stoltennerg keeps dodging the question about NATO troops in Ukraine.
Which is a concern.
A f**king big one.
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Is anyone even remotely surprised Russia is pushing back?
This is a game of Risk albeit on a global scale .
It was always going to happen.
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I just want to say I have been reading all the comments and not one ounce of empathy for the innocent population of Ukraine.
Quite right Bahrain. I feel enormous sympathy for all Ukrainians, but am guilty as charged for not expressing it earlier. :blush:
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This conflict will possibly pull Finland and Sweden towards NATO membership. Finland in particular is a vulnerable country. Rich in natural assets and strategically important with its coastline on the Baltic.
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Is anyone even remotely surprised Russia is pushing back?
This is a game of Risk albeit on a global scale .
It was always going to happen.
But the reason why all these countries were so eager to join NATO has just been demonstrated. Russia is a declining power, their power is waning. They're becoming desperate in being able to have influence on the world stage eg. Syria and Crimea
Sweden/Finland/Georgia will all accelerate their plans to join NATO I'm sure of it.
NATO has never been offensive, it is purely defensive. Russia doesn't like it because they can't touch former USSR territories that have now joined NATO.
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Is anyone even remotely surprised Russia is pushing back?
This is a game of Risk albeit on a global scale .
It was always going to happen.
But the reason why all these countries were so eager to join NATO has just been demonstrated. Russia is a declining power, their power is waning. They're becoming desperate in being able to have influence on the world stage eg. Syria and Crimea
Sweden/Finland/Georgia will all accelerate their plans to join NATO I'm sure of it.
NATO has never been offensive, it is purely defensive. Russia doesn't like it because they can't touch former USSR territories that have now joined NATO.
It’s a land grab of Ukraine while he can. It’s strategically important with access to the Black Sea. The west will have to accept it as collateral damage.
There is no other option. Send NATO troops in and everyone loses.
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Is anyone even remotely surprised Russia is pushing back?
This is a game of Risk albeit on a global scale .
It was always going to happen.
But the reason why all these countries were so eager to join NATO has just been demonstrated. Russia is a declining power, their power is waning. They're becoming desperate in being able to have influence on the world stage eg. Syria and Crimea
Sweden/Finland/Georgia will all accelerate their plans to join NATO I'm sure of it.
NATO has never been offensive, it is purely defensive. Russia doesn't like it because they can't touch former USSR territories that have now joined NATO.
It’s a land grab of Ukraine while he can. It’s strategically important with access to the Black Sea. The west will have to accept it as collateral damage.
There is no other option. Send NATO troops in and everyone loses.
The probable threshold for Nato going in is an attack on a Nato member, there are reports of missles landing 70km from Poland
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David Davis has just said the RAF should give the Ukrainians air support.
Madness.
That Tobias Elwood had a rush of blood to the head also earlier suggesting we should deploy troops into Ukraine. What a whopper.
Did he actually say that? The interview I saw he said NATO should have put troops into Ukraine 6 months ago as a peace keeping mission and perhaps that would then have made Putin think twice
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Is anyone even remotely surprised Russia is pushing back?
This is a game of Risk albeit on a global scale .
It was always going to happen.
But the reason why all these countries were so eager to join NATO has just been demonstrated. Russia is a declining power, their power is waning. They're becoming desperate in being able to have influence on the world stage eg. Syria and Crimea
Sweden/Finland/Georgia will all accelerate their plans to join NATO I'm sure of it.
NATO has never been offensive, it is purely defensive. Russia doesn't like it because they can't touch former USSR territories that have now joined NATO.
It’s a land grab of Ukraine while he can. It’s strategically important with access to the Black Sea. The west will have to accept it as collateral damage.
There is no other option. Send NATO troops in and everyone loses.
The probable threshold for Nato going in is an attack on a Nato member, there are reports of missles landing 70km from Poland
Is anyone even remotely surprised Russia is pushing back?
This is a game of Risk albeit on a global scale .
It was always going to happen.
But the reason why all these countries were so eager to join NATO has just been demonstrated. Russia is a declining power, their power is waning. They're becoming desperate in being able to have influence on the world stage eg. Syria and Crimea
Sweden/Finland/Georgia will all accelerate their plans to join NATO I'm sure of it.
NATO has never been offensive, it is purely defensive. Russia doesn't like it because they can't touch former USSR territories that have now joined NATO.
It’s a land grab of Ukraine while he can. It’s strategically important with access to the Black Sea. The west will have to accept it as collateral damage.
There is no other option. Send NATO troops in and everyone loses.
The probable threshold for Nato going in is an attack on a Nato member, there are reports of missles landing 70km from Poland
Yep. One stray missile and we are all f**ked.
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The irony BST that you campaigned door to door to have the worlds biggest Russian apologist elected PM
I did. And I said at the time that t was the worst choice of PM there had ever been in an election. But on balance, I preferred the one who had a schoolboy outlook on Russia, but who was surrounded by MPs who were much more hard-headed and would control him, rather than one who had deliberately sat on a report into how Russia was attacking or democracy, who had given a peerage to the son of an FSB colonel, and whose party was up to its neck in Putin kleptocrat finance.
Politics is about getting a least worst outcome. One of those two was going to be in No10 after that election. Which one would you have preferred?
And which of the two alternatives would you prefer now?
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Is anyone even remotely surprised Russia is pushing back?
This is a game of Risk albeit on a global scale .
It was always going to happen.
But the reason why all these countries were so eager to join NATO has just been demonstrated. Russia is a declining power, their power is waning. They're becoming desperate in being able to have influence on the world stage eg. Syria and Crimea
Sweden/Finland/Georgia will all accelerate their plans to join NATO I'm sure of it.
NATO has never been offensive, it is purely defensive. Russia doesn't like it because they can't touch former USSR territories that have now joined NATO.
It’s a land grab of Ukraine while he can. It’s strategically important with access to the Black Sea. The west will have to accept it as collateral damage.
There is no other option. Send NATO troops in and everyone loses.
I think you're overplaying the strategic aspect here. Putin is invading Ukraine because he needs to teach it a lesson that it will be controlled by Russia. He cannot have a successful, West-looking Ukraine. Not because it is a military threat to him. Because it would show up what a failed gangster state he was presiding over.
It's really that. He's a mob boss exerting his authority so that his authority doesn't get questioned.
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Russian newspaper Novaya Gazeta is being printed in Russian and Ukrainian as a sign of dissent against the war, and its editor is openly criticising Putin. I can't fathom how brave you have to be to do that. This guy has painted a massive target on his back now.
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Russian newspaper Novaya Gazeta is being printed in Russian and Ukrainian as a sign of dissent against the war, and its editor is openly criticising Putin. I can't fathom how brave you have to be to do that. This guy has painted a massive target on his back now.
The proverbial turkey voting for Xmas.
I doth my cap to his bravery.
But wonder at his stupidity.
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David Davis has just said the RAF should give the Ukrainians air support.
Madness.
That Tobias Elwood had a rush of blood to the head also earlier suggesting we should deploy troops into Ukraine. What a whopper.
Did he actually say that? The interview I saw he said NATO should have put troops into Ukraine 6 months ago as a peace keeping mission and perhaps that would then have made Putin think twice
He said it last week. And he said the MoD wanted to do it.
He was a bell end when I knew him as a student and he hasn't changed. 35 years ago he was as thick as a bucket of monkey spunk and his batshit suggestion of us putting boots on the ground suggests that not much has changed.
Bizarrely, he's seen as once of the intellects in the Tory party these days.
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David Davis has just said the RAF should give the Ukrainians air support.
Madness.
That Tobias Elwood had a rush of blood to the head also earlier suggesting we should deploy troops into Ukraine. What a whopper.
Did he actually say that? The interview I saw he said NATO should have put troops into Ukraine 6 months ago as a peace keeping mission and perhaps that would then have made Putin think twice
Yep.there’s a video of him on 17 feb saying exactly this. He alluded to it in his interview again this morning saying it’s too late and I said what needed to happen blah blah.
But he was a Royal Green Jacket. An infantry captain,
Lions led by donkeys.
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While all eyes are on Ukraine keep an eye on China and Taiwan
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The irony BST that you campaigned door to door to have the worlds biggest Russian apologist elected PM
I did. And I said at the time that t was the worst choice of PM there had ever been in an election. But on balance, I preferred the one who had a schoolboy outlook on Russia, but who was surrounded by MPs who were much more hard-headed and would control him, rather than one who had deliberately sat on a report into how Russia was attacking or democracy, who had given a peerage to the son of an FSB colonel, and whose party was up to its neck in Putin kleptocrat finance.
Politics is about getting a least worst outcome. One of those two was going to be in No10 after that election. Which one would you have preferred?
And which of the two alternatives would you prefer now?
Still Boris.... As much as I dislike Boris he is still a better choice than Corbyn ever would be. Just look at Corbyn and Abbott's comments last week to see how he'd have been a disaster.
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Whereas instead we're in a grand place now. War has happened anyway, and Johnson has given plenty of warning to the kleptocrats to move their funds out of the UK before we impose controls on them.
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The irony BST that you campaigned door to door to have the worlds biggest Russian apologist elected PM
I did. And I said at the time that t was the worst choice of PM there had ever been in an election. But on balance, I preferred the one who had a schoolboy outlook on Russia, but who was surrounded by MPs who were much more hard-headed and would control him, rather than one who had deliberately sat on a report into how Russia was attacking or democracy, who had given a peerage to the son of an FSB colonel, and whose party was up to its neck in Putin kleptocrat finance.
Politics is about getting a least worst outcome. One of those two was going to be in No10 after that election. Which one would you have preferred?
And which of the two alternatives would you prefer now?
Still Boris.... As much as I dislike Boris he is still a better choice than Corbyn ever would be. Just look at Corbyn and Abbott's comments last week to see how he'd have been a disaster.
I'll accept I may be wrong but have you ever voted labour pud?
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My customer was on the phone to a work colleague from the Ukraine this morning and the call cut out.
A few hours later the guy from Ukraine messaged him to say that everything shut down for a bit and that he'd had the call for conscription and he had to go to the town hall to collect a rifle.
This is guy is an IT nerd, not a soldier.
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Champions league final confirmed as being moved from st Petersburg.
This is a good start.
Now kick Russia out of the World Cup and impose a unilateral ban on them taking part in any football competition in the west .
Sport should be about bringing people together.
Now is the time to use football as a powerful sanction.
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The irony BST that you campaigned door to door to have the worlds biggest Russian apologist elected PM
I did. And I said at the time that t was the worst choice of PM there had ever been in an election. But on balance, I preferred the one who had a schoolboy outlook on Russia, but who was surrounded by MPs who were much more hard-headed and would control him, rather than one who had deliberately sat on a report into how Russia was attacking or democracy, who had given a peerage to the son of an FSB colonel, and whose party was up to its neck in Putin kleptocrat finance.
Politics is about getting a least worst outcome. One of those two was going to be in No10 after that election. Which one would you have preferred?
And which of the two alternatives would you prefer now?
Still Boris.... As much as I dislike Boris he is still a better choice than Corbyn ever would be. Just look at Corbyn and Abbott's comments last week to see how he'd have been a disaster.
I'll accept I may be wrong but have you ever voted labour pud?
Yes, my local labour councillors largely do a good job.
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Champions league final confirmed as being moved from st Petersburg.
This is a good start.
Now kick Russia out of the World Cup and impose a unilateral ban on them taking part in any football competition in the west .
Sport should be about bringing people together.
Now is the time to use football as a powerful sanction.
They should be totally ostracised from all sport - even the sports they repeatedly cheat in - and travel to and from Russia should be severely constricted..
We should also restrict the travel of the Russian senate members who voted this through - albeit, with a possible 'vacation' in Siberia if they had objected. Hit the people that are close to Putin and effectively imprison them in Russia - decline them their jet-set social western lifestyles and there will soon be some uncalm amongst his nearest and dearest.
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The irony BST that you campaigned door to door to have the worlds biggest Russian apologist elected PM
I did. And I said at the time that t was the worst choice of PM there had ever been in an election. But on balance, I preferred the one who had a schoolboy outlook on Russia, but who was surrounded by MPs who were much more hard-headed and would control him, rather than one who had deliberately sat on a report into how Russia was attacking or democracy, who had given a peerage to the son of an FSB colonel, and whose party was up to its neck in Putin kleptocrat finance.
Politics is about getting a least worst outcome. One of those two was going to be in No10 after that election. Which one would you have preferred?
And which of the two alternatives would you prefer now?
Still Boris.... As much as I dislike Boris he is still a better choice than Corbyn ever would be. Just look at Corbyn and Abbott's comments last week to see how he'd have been a disaster.
I'll accept I may be wrong but have you ever voted labour pud?
Yes, my local labour councillors largely do a good job.
So you would not have supported the Brown government that went on to save the UK economy and knowing that presumably voted them out for a couple of wide boys that went on to do their best to trash the economy and then deliver brexit and jellyback johnson that has been protecting putiin's thugs in London. In a nutshell.
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Iron curtain.
Two words I have not heard in a long long time.
Our younger generations won’t know what this means. And I hope they don’t get to know what it entails.
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Champions league final confirmed as being moved from st Petersburg.
This is a good start.
Now kick Russia out of the World Cup and impose a unilateral ban on them taking part in any football competition in the west .
Sport should be about bringing people together.
Now is the time to use football as a powerful sanction.
They should be totally ostracised from all sport - even the sports they repeatedly cheat in - and travel to and from Russia should be severely constricted..
We should also restrict the travel of the Russian senate members who voted this through - albeit, with a possible 'vacation' in Siberia if they had objected. Hit the people that are close to Putin and effectively imprison them in Russia - decline them their jet-set social western lifestyles and there will soon be some uncalm amongst his nearest and dearest.
We should have boycotted the Beijing Olympics.
Was it a mere coincidence that the Russians waited (apologies if this has been mentioned elsewhere) until the Olympics had finished before invading the Ukraine?
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The irony BST that you campaigned door to door to have the worlds biggest Russian apologist elected PM
I did. And I said at the time that t was the worst choice of PM there had ever been in an election. But on balance, I preferred the one who had a schoolboy outlook on Russia, but who was surrounded by MPs who were much more hard-headed and would control him, rather than one who had deliberately sat on a report into how Russia was attacking or democracy, who had given a peerage to the son of an FSB colonel, and whose party was up to its neck in Putin kleptocrat finance.
Politics is about getting a least worst outcome. One of those two was going to be in No10 after that election. Which one would you have preferred?
And which of the two alternatives would you prefer now?
Still Boris.... As much as I dislike Boris he is still a better choice than Corbyn ever would be. Just look at Corbyn and Abbott's comments last week to see how he'd have been a disaster.
And Johnson has been a resounding success has he?
I put a link up the other day to the sanctions and measures McDonnell would have put in place against Russian oligarchs and Russian money laudering in London. These were:
Oligarch Levy to tax secret offshore purchases of UK residential property
Magnitsky Clause to apply sanctions against human rights abusers
Tighten Politically Exposed Person regime
Extend the beneficial ownership register for Crown Dependencies and Overseas Territories and end anonymous trusts
Implement Unexplained Wealth Orders to confiscate illegally-obtained wealth
Resource Companies House to properly investigate dubious company
Johnson did none of these. Instead he relaxed rules, allowed more oligarchs in, accepted £millions in donations to the Tory Party and refused to implement the measures set down in his own Report on Russian Interference (which he has yet to release fully - why would that be?) Thats without the alleged Russian money and backing for Brexit.
Putin has funded Johnson because Johnson was the PM he wanted. He knew he would be useless, divisive, corruptable and allow him what he wanted.
Corbyn's Labour campaigned against Russia. Johnson let them in. Its just fact - even if you dont like it.
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''Labour leader Sir Keir Starmer urged the PM to bring in laws to stop oligarchs buying UK firms and property.
But Mr Johnson said no government could "conceivably be doing more"''
Could have done a lot more, should have done a lot more, emergency parliament sitting to pass new laws? nah put it off till spring.
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Another one of Putin's paid Lord Haw-Haws traipsing out to excuse him.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1496832757518974978
Lower than vermin.
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How surprising that so many opponents of an imagined empire in Brussels turn out to support a real one in Moscow.
https://twitter.com/jonlis1/status/1496845106342735873
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Credit to the anti-war protestors in Moscow. Just watched a video of hundreds of them being grabbed and hoarded into police vans on mass. That's bravery.
Big moment for China here. They are walking on a tightrope but if they decide to support Putin economically, we're returning to a global dark age.
Very worryingly the discourse on Chinese media and social media appears to be that this invasion was provoked by the West.
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I’ve just watched the pm address the house followed by the leader of the opposition.
Say what you like about left right politics, but I’ve just witnessed two very moving speeches from Two people who are usually at each other’s throats.
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Ffs.just hearing of huge ques at local Tesco so that people can fill up. What is it with people?
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I’ve just watched the pm address the house followed by the leader of the opposition.
Say what you like about left right politics, but I’ve just witnessed two very moving speeches from Two people who are usually at each other’s throats.
In times like this, there is no place for political point scoring, unity is the best action, and I’m sure the vast majority support the PM and leader of the opposition at this time
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Billy, I was commenting on the football posters wanting to use the World cup as a stick to beat Russia with, and pointing out that the Asia, Concaf, South American,and African football federations already think that too many European countries qualify for the finals at the expense of countries in their federations.
And that any organised lack of attendance could cost the European countries places in subsequent World Cups as those federations would take advantage of the situation in my opinion.
They are already organised enough to make sure England , and the UK have little chance of hosting the competition again, and would like nothing more to make it more difficult for European and England especially to qualify'
Choose how you dress yourself up your British and they dislike you, just as much as they do me buddy, and if they got to know how boring and condescending you can be, they would probably dislike you even more.
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Billy, I was commenting on the football posters wanting to use the World cup as a stick to beat Russia with, and pointing out that the Asia, Concaf, South American,and African football federations already think that too many European countries qualify for the finals at the expense of countries in their federations.
And that any organised lack of attendance could cost the European countries places in subsequent World Cups as those federations would take advantage of the situation in my opinion.
They are already organised enough to make sure England , and the UK have little chance of hosting the competition again, and would like nothing more to make it more difficult for European and England especially to qualify'
Choose how you dress yourself up your British and they dislike you, just as much as they do me buddy, and if they got to know how boring and condescending you can be, they would probably dislike you even more.
Little Englander. I've got news for you. The rest of the world doesn't hate England. We aren't important enough. The FIFA delegates didn't give the WC to Russia over England because they hate England. They did it because they got massive bribes from Russia, whereas we just gave them a mug with a picture of Tower Bridge on it.
None of that would work in a WC where the European teams, barring Russia, Serbia, Hungary and Belarus refused to take part. Because no-one would bother watching it. Just like no-one watches the Copa America or the African Cup of Nations.
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I’ve just watched the pm address the house followed by the leader of the opposition.
Say what you like about left right politics, but I’ve just witnessed two very moving speeches from Two people who are usually at each other’s throats.
Yes. And add the Lib Dems and Scots Nats to that.
You have the country behind you Johnson (other than extremist/appeaser nutters) impose sanctions on any source of Russian funding in the UK now. Make it hurt him.
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At the moment, all that coded talk by the West about SWIFT sanctions is sounding like piss and wind. Locking Russia out of Swift would be a real smash in the face, but the west has so far backed down from doing it. If a full scale tank invasion isn't enough to trigger that, it makes you wonder what is.
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The irony BST that you campaigned door to door to have the worlds biggest Russian apologist elected PM
I did. And I said at the time that t was the worst choice of PM there had ever been in an election. But on balance, I preferred the one who had a schoolboy outlook on Russia, but who was surrounded by MPs who were much more hard-headed and would control him, rather than one who had deliberately sat on a report into how Russia was attacking or democracy, who had given a peerage to the son of an FSB colonel, and whose party was up to its neck in Putin kleptocrat finance.
Politics is about getting a least worst outcome. One of those two was going to be in No10 after that election. Which one would you have preferred?
And which of the two alternatives would you prefer now?
Still Boris.... As much as I dislike Boris he is still a better choice than Corbyn ever would be. Just look at Corbyn and Abbott's comments last week to see how he'd have been a disaster.
I'll accept I may be wrong but have you ever voted labour pud?
Yes, my local labour councillors largely do a good job.
So you would not have supported the Brown government that went on to save the UK economy and knowing that presumably voted them out for a couple of wide boys that went on to do their best to trash the economy and then deliver brexit and jellyback johnson that has been protecting putiin's thugs in London. In a nutshell.
As a student at that time who'd just been saddled with 30k+ of student debt due to the policies brought in by said labour government, this after my labour mp said it was tough luck that I lost out on place at the local school because those from outside the area had more right to it than me. Nope I wasn't much of a fan of the labour party at that point.
As to my point on Corbyn and McDonnell. It appears Starmer agrees as he has asked mcdonnell to withdraw his criticism of nato tonight..... That would have been government policy under Corbyn, just think about that.
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So let me get this right 70% of parliament agreed to invade Iraq because they thought they might have WMD but are at the moment debating imposing further sanctions on a country who most defiantly have WUM and have just this morning invaded its near neighbour just like Iraq invaded Kuwait .
Putin can smell the weakness thousands of miles away in Moscow and he's laughing .
Yes I know this game is high stakes but unless the West crush this tyrant now then he's going to march in to a number of neighbouring countries and plant his flag .
Do politicians not learn anything from history the same as they put their heads in the sand when Hitler annexed Austria and walked in to the former Czechoslovakia .
This tyrant needs burying now .
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This is an unadulterated catastrophe. Mainly for the poor souls in Ukraine but for the rest of Europe too. It’s also going to put Russia on the brink. Their economy is already hanging by a thread but the hit they’re going to get from sanctions is going to make life very, very unpleasant for a lot of the population. This truly is the action of a mad man. The only hope for Ukraine now is that the Russian people demand an end to the conflict and pressure Putin to withdraw. How anyone can possibly blame anyone but Putin for this is incredulous.
I don’t believe that this is anything to do with NATO either but more to do with Russian Imperialism. Putin has always wanted to ‘reclaim’ a Soviet identity. Where will this end? If he sets foot into a NATO country there will be all out war. No doubt. And it’ll be a war that Russia cannot win. A combined NATO force has enormous resources in manpower and technology which would utterly destroy Russian forces in a ‘conventional’ war. Of course, the unimaginable scenario is of a Nuclear attack. Again, NATO is far more superior in regards to hardware, technology and missile defence but, make no bones about it, it only takes one to get through…
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The irony BST that you campaigned door to door to have the worlds biggest Russian apologist elected PM
I did. And I said at the time that t was the worst choice of PM there had ever been in an election. But on balance, I preferred the one who had a schoolboy outlook on Russia, but who was surrounded by MPs who were much more hard-headed and would control him, rather than one who had deliberately sat on a report into how Russia was attacking or democracy, who had given a peerage to the son of an FSB colonel, and whose party was up to its neck in Putin kleptocrat finance.
Politics is about getting a least worst outcome. One of those two was going to be in No10 after that election. Which one would you have preferred?
And which of the two alternatives would you prefer now?
Still Boris.... As much as I dislike Boris he is still a better choice than Corbyn ever would be. Just look at Corbyn and Abbott's comments last week to see how he'd have been a disaster.
I'll accept I may be wrong but have you ever voted labour pud?
Yes, my local labour councillors largely do a good job.
So you would not have supported the Brown government that went on to save the UK economy and knowing that presumably voted them out for a couple of wide boys that went on to do their best to trash the economy and then deliver brexit and jellyback johnson that has been protecting putiin's thugs in London. In a nutshell.
As a student at that time who'd just been saddled with 30k+ of student debt due to the policies brought in by said labour government, this after my labour mp said it was tough luck that I lost out on place at the local school because those from outside the area had more right to it than me. Nope I wasn't much of a fan of the labour party at that point.
As to my point on Corbyn and McDonnell. It appears Starmer agrees as he has asked mcdonnell to withdraw his criticism of nato tonight..... That would have been government policy under Corbyn, just think about that.
Yes I posted twice about the measures a Corbyn Labour government would have taken against Russia and its ability to fund its aggression with money from London. That a Johnson led government refused to do.
McDonnell will be speaking at a Ukraine Solidarity demo outside the Russian Embassy on Saturday if you want to go barrack him. And ask him if he knows how many Tories have given their Russian money back:
https://twitter.com/johnmcdonnellMP/status/1496865846974722055
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All Labour MP's have now withrawn their names from the Stop the War letter as requested by Starmer
https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1496915658856341504
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Biden is forceful and reassuring tonight.
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It's Putin who is the one who is scared and why the West can't see this is beyond me .
He's scared that a Ukraine on his doorstep looks West for its future prosperity under democratic rule .
Frightened to death the Russian people will want the same instead of having to live under his rule whilst he and his cronies continue to steal the billions from the Russian people .
Even I can smell his fear that the Russian people wake up and rise up against him , he'd be swinging from a rope pretty quickly and he knows it .
Time the West flipped this the other way instead of the lame sanctions route that he knew were coming and he's planned for .
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That was a statesmanlike speech by Biden.
That's what we needed to hear.
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At the moment, all that coded talk by the West about SWIFT sanctions is sounding like piss and wind. Locking Russia out of Swift would be a real smash in the face, but the west has so far backed down from doing it. If a full scale tank invasion isn't enough to trigger that, it makes you wonder what is.
The EU looking likely to vote against removing SWIFT .
Make of that what you will Billy .
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Back on topic I can see that BA are still operating flights to Moscow. Tomorrow for instance from Heathrow.
Surely airlines around the world should look to sanction Russia by limiting the ability of its people to get around.
Why target just the wealthy? Whilst they hold a lot of power and influence, there would be no better way to alienate his own people from him by banning international travel in and out of Russia.
Why should airlines have to take the lead when the government could quite easily do it for them but don’t.
Airlines are already taking steps by cancelling flights to Ukraine, but that’s to protect planes and people. But they are still happy to fly to the aggressor nation. It just seems a bit daft.
The Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 was shot down over Ukraine. Perhaps that's a good enough reason.
The airlines will wait for direction as ultimately people need ferrying around.
And their freedom to overfly countries is protected.
Are you suggesting that Ukraine shot down the plane?
No, read again.
I was stating where that aircraft had been shot down.
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At the moment, all that coded talk by the West about SWIFT sanctions is sounding like piss and wind. Locking Russia out of Swift would be a real smash in the face, but the west has so far backed down from doing it. If a full scale tank invasion isn't enough to trigger that, it makes you wonder what is.
The EU looking likely to vote against removing SWIFT .
Make of that what you will Billy .
Swift works both ways, it stops Russia gathering payments. But it also stops creditors outside Russia getting paid.
It would be a very big double edged sword.
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Cutting Russia off from Swift banking not an option right now - Biden
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At the moment, all that coded talk by the West about SWIFT sanctions is sounding like piss and wind. Locking Russia out of Swift would be a real smash in the face, but the west has so far backed down from doing it. If a full scale tank invasion isn't enough to trigger that, it makes you wonder what is.
The EU looking likely to vote against removing SWIFT .
Make of that what you will Billy .
Swift works both ways, it stops Russia gathering payments. But it also stops creditors outside Russia getting paid.
It would be a very big double edged sword.
Well that's fair enough but warfare tends to do that and it's a question of what you are prepared to suffer yourself in order to strike a blow on the aggressor .
Looks like we are only prepared to suffer minimally whilst a democratic country is invaded right in front of our noses .
Chamberlain would be proud .
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At the moment, all that coded talk by the West about SWIFT sanctions is sounding like piss and wind. Locking Russia out of Swift would be a real smash in the face, but the west has so far backed down from doing it. If a full scale tank invasion isn't enough to trigger that, it makes you wonder what is.
The EU looking likely to vote against removing SWIFT .
Make of that what you will Billy .
Swift works both ways, it stops Russia gathering payments. But it also stops creditors outside Russia getting paid.
It would be a very big double edged sword.
Well that's fair enough but warfare tends to do that and it's a question of what you are prepared to suffer yourself in order to strike a blow on the aggressor .
Looks like we are only prepared to suffer minimally whilst a democratic country is invaded right in front of our noses .
Chamberlain would be proud .
Id beat Russia with every stick I could lay my hands on, metaphorically speaking. But there is a reason the leaders of the modern world are holding back on the SWIFT payments system,
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Ukraine have re taken Hostomel airfield captured by Russian airborne troops earlier, the airborne troops have been eliminated
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At the moment, all that coded talk by the West about SWIFT sanctions is sounding like piss and wind. Locking Russia out of Swift would be a real smash in the face, but the west has so far backed down from doing it. If a full scale tank invasion isn't enough to trigger that, it makes you wonder what is.
The EU looking likely to vote against removing SWIFT .
Make of that what you will Billy .
Swift works both ways, it stops Russia gathering payments. But it also stops creditors outside Russia getting paid.
It would be a very big double edged sword.
Well that's fair enough but warfare tends to do that and it's a question of what you are prepared to suffer yourself in order to strike a blow on the aggressor .
Looks like we are only prepared to suffer minimally whilst a democratic country is invaded right in front of our noses .
Chamberlain would be proud .
Id beat Russia with every stick I could lay my hands on, metaphorically speaking. But there is a reason the leaders of the modern world are holding back on the SWIFT payments system,
And this is why we are where we are today. Despite the outcry of the western world today, despite all the strong talk of repercussion and rethoric about defending democracy, the reality is the Western Governments of the world value the strength of their economic markets over nearly every other measure of a society and civilization. Russia and Putin do not. Putin cares far more about national security and military might than that of the Russian economy.
Putin may be mad, he may even be mentally unstable, he knows their will be sanctions that may slightly damage him and Russia, but he knows the European leaders and other Western nations would not sacrifice their own economies, even when defending democracy.
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Does anyone think he may be seriously/terminally ill and just doesn’t give a f**k.
He looks a bit different in the videos/photos to me.
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He has reached that age I suspect , where a combination of his false perception of his limitless power and his limited mortality have collided. Badly.
He has adopted the now or never attitude. And he has taken the now path.
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Someone suggested on Twitter that he has late stage syphilis and has gone mad
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Viktor Vekselberg's $120,000,000 yacht is currently docked in Europe, the Spanish islands. It could be seized.
Roman Abramovich's $590,000,000 yacht Eclipse is in Sint Maarten (Netherlands territory). It could be seized.
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Someone suggested on Twitter that he has late stage syphilis and has gone mad
It's normal in times of war to paint the enemy as a nutter, even though we know this one is, look at how they portrayed gadafi.
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Ukraine have re taken Hostomel airfield captured by Russian airborne troops earlier, the airborne troops have been eliminated
17 Russian attack helicopter, with Russian special forces all killed apparently
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As mentioned earlier respect to the peace protesters in Russia and to Nalvalny who is probably fighting a life sentence.
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All Labour MP's have now withrawn their names from the Stop the War letter as requested by Starmer
https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1496915658856341504
The fact that any of them even thought about putting their signatures to a letter which mumbled something about Russia's "movement of forces" (couldn't even bring themselves to call it an illegal invasion) is a disgrace. They aren't socialists. They are lapdogs to a fascist. They should be drummed out of the party.
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Does anyone think he may be seriously/terminally ill and just doesn’t give a f**k.
He looks a bit different in the videos/photos to me.
He could know he is dying and just wants to go out with a bang ,but he is crazy
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While all eyes are on Ukraine keep an eye on China and Taiwan
This is my worry out here in the Philippines Filo. As China are already claiming a stake in the Scarborough Shole and Spratly Islands. Claiming them to be in the South China Sea, when in fact they are in Philippines waters. They have taken over uninhabited islands and done thier dredging/pumping sand stuff, and made the islands big enough to put runways on them. The consensus is that these islands offer a deep water channel directly in to the Pacific. Therefore making deployment of submarines harder to detect. Now this is one that would blow up, due to America's long military standing with the Philippines.
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All Labour MP's have now withrawn their names from the Stop the War letter as requested by Starmer
https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1496915658856341504
The fact that any of them even thought about putting their signatures to a letter which mumbled something about Russia's "movement of forces" (couldn't even bring themselves to call it an illegal invasion) is a disgrace. They aren't socialists. They are lapdogs to a fascist. They should be drummed out of the party.
The Labour MP's were under threat from the Chief Whip to have the whip removed, so acted to remove their names.
Stop the War new statement of position:
https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/stop-the-war-statement-on-ukraine-24-02-22/
The last two sentences of your post show where your beliefs take you into a dark place.
What do you think fascism actually is, within the Labour Party?
Luke Akehurst is proposing potential use of nuclear weapons by the UK over the Ukraine situation.
https://twitter.com/jrc1921/status/1496937305768181766
Are you in with the Labour right on this helpful suggestion?
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Albie.
1) That StW statement is precisely the one I was talking about. Unable to find it in themselves to call the illegal Russian warmaking what it is. "Movement" of Russian forces for f**ks sake!
2) Do you REALLY need to ask if I support an utter idiot saying stupid things like that?
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Meanwhile this is the insane reaction that war fever produces.
.https://uk.news.yahoo.com/uk-urged-to-expel-russian-citizens-194140502.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw&tsrc=twtr
One of my best friends is a Russian, who has lived and worked in the UK for 25 years and is married to a Ukrainian woman. This f**king idiot would throw them out of the country, while his party has been accepting Putin's money without question for a decade and more. What about just throwing out the kleptocrats who have his party by the balls?
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BST,
You do not have to agree with the STW position.....many do not!
The point is that those who do, have a right to hold that opinion without being threatened with having the whip removed.
Compliance without dissent is not compatible with a democratic organisation, respectful of difference of view.
Advocating peace seems to me a moral position, even where there are questions about how it maps on to the actions of a deranged lunatic.
Glad to hear you are not aligned with the demented Akehurst, key advisor to Keith and Co.
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BST,
You do not have to agree with the STW position.....many do not!
The point is that those who do, have a right to hold that opinion without being threatened with having the whip removed.
Compliance without dissent is not compatible with a democratic organisation, respectful of difference of view.
Advocating peace seems to me a moral position, even where there are questions about how it maps on to the actions of a deranged lunatic.
Glad to hear you are not aligned with the demented Akehurst, key advisor to Keith and Co.
On the one hand you are saying that people should have the freedom to hold an opinion and on the other you are condemning Starmer for allowing the same?
Bit of a wonky position Albie?
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Is anyone even remotely surprised Russia is pushing back?
This is a game of Risk albeit on a global scale .
It was always going to happen.
A picture is worth a thousand words.
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BST,
You do not have to agree with the STW position.....many do not!
The point is that those who do, have a right to hold that opinion without being threatened with having the whip removed.
Compliance without dissent is not compatible with a democratic organisation, respectful of difference of view.
Advocating peace seems to me a moral position, even where there are questions about how it maps on to the actions of a deranged lunatic.
Glad to hear you are not aligned with the demented Akehurst, key advisor to Keith and Co.
Albie.
Find me a single example of StW EVER explicitly and unambiguously condemning Russian warmongering, without using mealy-mouthed words like "movement" and I'll accept their right to take part in balanced discussion.
But you won't. Because such examples don't exist. Not over Ukraine. Not over Aleppo. Not over Georgia. No retrospective comments about how Russia wiped Grozny off the map.
Because they are not interested in stopping war. Their policy is the same that Seamus Milne's was when he was Corbyn's spin doctor. Never to prioritise criticising Russia because criticism should always be aimed at NATO. Whatever the problem: blame NATO, the USA and the UK.
Now. At a time when, for the first time in 75 years, a country has sent tanks into another country, you can align yourself with an implicitly Russian apologist if you want. Just don't expect to stay in the Labour party.
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Meanwhile this is the insane reaction that war fever produces.
.https://uk.news.yahoo.com/uk-urged-to-expel-russian-citizens-194140502.html?soc_src=social-sh&soc_trk=tw&tsrc=twtr
One of my best friends is a Russian, who has lived and worked in the UK for 25 years and is married to a Ukrainian woman. This f**king idiot would throw them out of the country, while his party has been accepting Putin's money without question for a decade and more. What about just throwing out the kleptocrats who have his party by the balls?
Good grief. Absurdity.
There are circa 70,000 Russian citizens in the uk, that we know of.
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The tit for tat has begun. Russia now bans all uk registered planes.
I see Manchester United have ditched their link to Aeroflot. They were supposed to be using them to fly to their next euro game, and have now arranged with another carrier. Good stuff.
Aeroflot shares have tanked 40% in the last 5 days.
GAZPROM shares also down 37% over last 5 days.
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Sberbank shares down 53% in last 5.
VTB down 53 % also.
Putin will bankrupt his country the way this is going.
His own people will turn against him. It’s already happening.
Madman.
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CL final to be held in Paris.
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I’m quite surprised to see tanks rolling around urban Kyiv.
This is not a place for tanks bearing in mind they would be very easy to take out with an anti tank weapon.
Tanks are not designed to be used in urban areas. They become a very easy target.
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I’m quite surprised to see tanks rolling around urban Kyiv.
This is not a place for tanks bearing in mind they would be very easy to take out with an anti tank weapon.
Tanks are not designed to be used in urban areas. They become a very easy target.
I imagine it's a show of strength to demonstrate to the population that they are here.
As you suggest though, it will suit Ukainian armed forces, who I guess will want to engage in urban guerilla war tactics.
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Yes nr - stop the first tank and you have stopped the lot, because you have blocked the road, then they are sitting targets
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Defence Minister, Ben Wallace said on the radio this morning that Ukraine had asked the UK for anti-aircraft missiles this morning - but we were unable to supply them.
That's because we dont have any. We rely solely on aircraft and ships.
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Defence Minister, Ben Wallace said on the radio this morning that Ukraine had asked the UK for anti-aircraft missiles this morning - but we were unable to supply them.
That's because we dont have any. We rely solely on aircraft and ships.
Quite sensible when you think of it though they are something we don't necessarily need do we?
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Putin has stated anyone that gets involved will be subject to an immediate response. I’m guessing supplying Ukraine with weapons does not count?
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Putin has stated anyone that gets involved will be subject to an immediate response. I’m guessing supplying Ukraine with weapons does not count?
It seems so, the Americans supplied the mujahadeen with weapons throughout the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Perhaps that sets a precedent?
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The Ukrainians should surrender to avoid further bloodshed. They are being used as expendable cannon fodder by the US puppet government.
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A little good news
''Hacker collective Anonymous declares 'cyber war' against Russia, disables state news website''
https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2022-02-25/hacker-collective-anonymous-declares-cyber-war-against-russia/100861160
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As mentioned earlier respect to the peace protesters in Russia and to Nalvalny who is probably fighting a life sentence.
Would love to see a revolution of the Russian people and an overthrow of Putin and his government - highly unlikely I know, but a groundswell of people protesting and challenging would be interesting. I feel sorry for the civilian population of Russia who are faced with years of exile, loss of freedom and a good chance of falling into poverty - all on the back of this tin pot leader with SMS........ and possibly syphilis...
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Regime change would be the ultimate goal of sanctions
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A little good news
''Hacker collective Anonymous declares 'cyber war' against Russia, disables state news website''
https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2022-02-25/hacker-collective-anonymous-declares-cyber-war-against-russia/100861160
I wonder under what flag Anonymous operate?
Again, I cite Putins threat of an immediate response to anyone that gets involved. This would be interpreted as a direct attack on Russia.
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Regime change would be the ultimate goal of sanctions
What so Russia becomes another US sycophant state?
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All Labour MP's have now withrawn their names from the Stop the War letter as requested by Starmer
https://twitter.com/patrickkmaguire/status/1496915658856341504
The fact that any of them even thought about putting their signatures to a letter which mumbled something about Russia's "movement of forces" (couldn't even bring themselves to call it an illegal invasion) is a disgrace. They aren't socialists. They are lapdogs to a fascist. They should be drummed out of the party.
The letter/statement was a week ago during the diplomatic exchanges. It says there should be a diplomatic solution and asked the UK to work towards that rather then inflaming the situation with military rhetoric:
Our focus is on the policies of the British government which have poured oil on the fire throughout this episode. In taking this position we do not endorse the nature or conduct of either the Russian or Ukrainian regimes.
The British government has talked up the threat of war continually, to the point where the Ukraine government has asked it to stop.
Unlike the French and German governments, it has advanced no proposals for a diplomatic solution to the crisis, and has contributed only sabre-rattling.
Britain needs to change its policy, and start working for peace, not confrontation.
Stop the War believes that Russia and Ukraine should reach a diplomatic settlement of the tensions between them, on the basis of the Minsk-2 agreement already signed by both states.
Clearly it was wrong, Putin was playing everyone along and there never was a possibilty of a diplomatic solution. But to call people 'lapdogs to a fascist' for wanting a diplomatic solution rather than a war and the deaths of thousands of innocent civilians, as will likely happen, is deplorable.
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Regime change would be the ultimate goal of sanctions
What so Russia becomes another US sycophant state?
Said the apologist puppet of the Russian state.
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Regime change would be the ultimate goal of sanctions
What so Russia becomes another US sycophant state?
Said the apologist puppet of the Russian state.
You're the puppet believing the lies in the MSM.
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Defence Minister, Ben Wallace said on the radio this morning that Ukraine had asked the UK for anti-aircraft missiles this morning - but we were unable to supply them.
That's because we dont have any. We rely solely on aircraft and ships.
Quite sensible when you think of it though they are something we don't necessarily need do we?
Well I hope our authorities think it's the right move.
Ukraine couldn't get the planes up beacuse the first places the Russian's attacked were the airfields. The Ukrainians's couldn't defend the airfields because they dont have anti-aircraft weapons.
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Regime change would be the ultimate goal of sanctions
What so Russia becomes another US sycophant state?
Said the apologist puppet of the Russian state.
You're the puppet believing the lies in the MSM.
Said the apologist believing the propoganda of the Russian state.
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Regime change would be the ultimate goal of sanctions
What so Russia becomes another US sycophant state?
Said the apologist puppet of the Russian state.
You're the puppet believing the lies in the MSM.
Said the apologist believing the propoganda of the Russian state.
I don't need the Russian state, it's obvious what's happening.
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The Ukrainians should surrender to avoid further bloodshed. They are being used as expendable cannon fodder by the US puppet government.
Why should they surrender, they have done nothing wrong, they are fighting against an evil killer that cares only for himself and his Billions
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Ask any Ukrainian whether they think they ought to surrender.
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Russian GP now cancelled.
F1 team Haas has ditched its Russian based sponsor too, and now has the car decked out in all white. It was draped in the Russian flag colours
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UEFA still not addressing its relationship with GAZPROM.
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The Ukrainians should surrender to avoid further bloodshed. They are being used as expendable cannon fodder by the US puppet government.
Your daily broadcast from Lord Haw-Haw.
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I read an interesting article recently that suggested that NATO should have invited both Russia and Ukraine to join NATO - with the proviso that Ukraine could only accept if Russia did. After all, we hear that Putin's main concern is Ukrainian NATO membership, leading to NATO troops being stationed in the Ukraine and providing a closer launching pad for a NATO war against Russia. If Russia were a NATO member, NATO's Article 5 would compel, for example, the UK to defend Russia against any attack, including that of a fellow NATO member, including the U.S. Therefore Russia's NATO membership would provide the formal security guarantee that it wants and seeks.
Bringing Russia in from the cold might be the barking mad, but it could have been the solution. And what if Russia declines I hear you say.... well that would show that Putin's real focus is on conquering countries with any actual or alleged historical connection to Russia, and might show that NATO allies need to be prepared for further wars in the Baltics..... or any other NATO countries in Putin's eye sights..
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The Ukrainians should surrender to avoid further bloodshed. They are being used as expendable cannon fodder by the US puppet government.
Your daily broadcast from Lord Haw-Haw.
Yawn.
It's a pity you the self proclaimed defender of the poor are not more concerned with the massive costs sanctions will put on the fuel and energy prices here in the UK. This is more important than crying about some one carrying out a military operation in a country which does not concern us.
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The Ukrainians should surrender to avoid further bloodshed. They are being used as expendable cannon fodder by the US puppet government.
Your daily broadcast from Lord Haw-Haw.
Yawn.
It's a pity you the self proclaimed defender of the poor are not more concerned with the massive costs sanctions will put on the fuel and energy prices here in the UK. This is more important than crying about some one carrying out a military operation in a country which does not concern us.
I find your support of a mad man killing innocent people disgusting, you should be ashamed of your comments!
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I doubt that a communist regime would want to be part of a democratic regime.
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NR.
They are no more Communist than our Govt is.
They retained all the autocratic controls of the Soviet Union, but put them to serving a bunch of gangsters who have made themselves spectacularly wealthy. They are the very definition of a gangster kleptocracy.
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The Ukrainians should surrender to avoid further bloodshed. They are being used as expendable cannon fodder by the US puppet government.
Your daily broadcast from Lord Haw-Haw.
Yawn.
It's a pity you the self proclaimed defender of the poor are not more concerned with the massive costs sanctions will put on the fuel and energy prices here in the UK. This is more important than crying about some one carrying out a military operation in a country which does not concern us.
Like when Germany invaded Poland & we ended up with our population on food rations as we went to war with Germany. What were we thinking about!
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Russia hasn't been a communist state for a long time.
The party Putin represents is United Russia, described as Russian Conservative, statist and nationalist.
All in all, not unlike fascists then.
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Should the time ever come where I find myself completely unmatched, facing certain death, I sincerely hope I've got the balls to be as defiant as the Ukranians killed defending Snake Island.
"This is Russian military warship. I suggest you lay down your weapons and surrender to avoid bloodshed and needless casualties. Otherwise, you will be bombed."
"Go f**k yourselves".
Died proud, defending what they believed in.
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Russian GP now cancelled.
F1 team Haas has ditched its Russian based sponsor too, and now has the car decked out in all white. It was draped in the Russian flag colours
Surely yellow and blue would have been a better decision..... rub Putin's nose in it so to speak.
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I see the skip rat Assad has come out and praised Putin for his actions.
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The Ukrainians should surrender to avoid further bloodshed. They are being used as expendable cannon fodder by the US puppet government.
Your daily broadcast from Lord Haw-Haw.
Yawn.
It's a pity you the self proclaimed defender of the poor are not more concerned with the massive costs sanctions will put on the fuel and energy prices here in the UK. This is more important than crying about some one carrying out a military operation in a country which does not concern us.
Like when Germany invaded Poland & we ended up with our population on food rations as we went to war with Germany. What were we thinking about!
Could have been avoided though couldn't it? Do you think any of these foreigners are ever grateful to us? They all hate us as proved by the petty EU carry on over covid vaccines and border checks. We'll just end up with more so called refugees coming over here 'cause we're a soft touch for spongers. We should be a closed country and have nothing to do with anyone. We'd be a lot better off for it.
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Should the time ever come where I find myself completely unmatched, facing certain death, I sincerely hope I've got the balls to be as defiant as the Ukranians killed defending Snake Island.
"This is Russian military warship. I suggest you lay down your weapons and surrender to avoid bloodshed and needless casualties. Otherwise, you will be bombed."
"Go f**k yourselves".
Died proud, defending what they believed in.
I heard about that incident too.
Axholme Lion would no doubt call them fools.
I also saw the footage of a Russian tank that as a civilian car approached it on the other side of the road, the tank swerved & ran right over the top of the car.
It later showed passers-by helping a single grey haired gent out of the wreckage apparently having miraculously survived his confrontation with the brave Russian tank crew.
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You're not a very compassionate man are you AL.
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The Ukrainians should surrender to avoid further bloodshed. They are being used as expendable cannon fodder by the US puppet government.
Your daily broadcast from Lord Haw-Haw.
Yawn.
It's a pity you the self proclaimed defender of the poor are not more concerned with the massive costs sanctions will put on the fuel and energy prices here in the UK. This is more important than crying about some one carrying out a military operation in a country which does not concern us.
Like when Germany invaded Poland & we ended up with our population on food rations as we went to war with Germany. What were we thinking about!
Could have been avoided though couldn't it? Do you think any of these foreigners are ever grateful to us? They all hate us as proved by the petty EU carry on over covid vaccines and border checks. We'll just end up with more so called refugees coming over here 'cause we're a soft touch for spongers. We should be a closed country and have nothing to do with anyone. We'd be a lot better off for it.
Yep, could have been avoided. And of course had we not gone to war with Germany, Axholme Hitler would never had invaded Britain.
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It's not fair to bring up the war to Axholme. His side lost.
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The Ukrainians should surrender to avoid further bloodshed. They are being used as expendable cannon fodder by the US puppet government.
Your daily broadcast from Lord Haw-Haw.
Yawn.
It's a pity you the self proclaimed defender of the poor are not more concerned with the massive costs sanctions will put on the fuel and energy prices here in the UK. This is more important than crying about some one carrying out a military operation in a country which does not concern us.
Like when Germany invaded Poland & we ended up with our population on food rations as we went to war with Germany. What were we thinking about!
Could have been avoided though couldn't it? Do you think any of these foreigners are ever grateful to us? They all hate us as proved by the petty EU carry on over covid vaccines and border checks. We'll just end up with more so called refugees coming over here 'cause we're a soft touch for spongers. We should be a closed country and have nothing to do with anyone. We'd be a lot better off for it.
I have no words. I can only hope people with similar views and values to you, are few and far between in this country.
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The Ukrainians should surrender to avoid further bloodshed. They are being used as expendable cannon fodder by the US puppet government.
Your daily broadcast from Lord Haw-Haw.
Yawn.
It's a pity you the self proclaimed defender of the poor are not more concerned with the massive costs sanctions will put on the fuel and energy prices here in the UK. This is more important than crying about some one carrying out a military operation in a country which does not concern us.
Like when Germany invaded Poland & we ended up with our population on food rations as we went to war with Germany. What were we thinking about!
Could have been avoided though couldn't it? Do you think any of these foreigners are ever grateful to us? They all hate us as proved by the petty EU carry on over covid vaccines and border checks. We'll just end up with more so called refugees coming over here 'cause we're a soft touch for spongers. We should be a closed country and have nothing to do with anyone. We'd be a lot better off for it.
Yep, could have been avoided. And of course had we not gone to war with Germany, Axholme Hitler would never had invaded Britain.
I don't believe he would have if you look into it properly. Once again getting involved in other peoples problems cost us thousands and thousands of British lives. We never seem to learn from it. It's not worth our while, let europe look after themselves. What right do we have to set ourselves up as the worlds policeman? All the do gooders bleat on about our evil empire but seem happy for us stick our oar in now when ever anything kicks off.
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You're not a very compassionate man are you AL.
No.
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Geopolitics by Crayola.
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You're not a very compassionate man are you AL.
No.
Were you abused by your Dad as a child?
It's not uncommon amongst our more reactionary posters on here.
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The Ukrainians should surrender to avoid further bloodshed. They are being used as expendable cannon fodder by the US puppet government.
Your daily broadcast from Lord Haw-Haw.
Yawn.
It's a pity you the self proclaimed defender of the poor are not more concerned with the massive costs sanctions will put on the fuel and energy prices here in the UK. This is more important than crying about some one carrying out a military operation in a country which does not concern us.
Like when Germany invaded Poland & we ended up with our population on food rations as we went to war with Germany. What were we thinking about!
Could have been avoided though couldn't it? Do you think any of these foreigners are ever grateful to us? They all hate us as proved by the petty EU carry on over covid vaccines and border checks. We'll just end up with more so called refugees coming over here 'cause we're a soft touch for spongers. We should be a closed country and have nothing to do with anyone. We'd be a lot better off for it.
I’m wondering, do you get up especially early in the morning to practice, or does ignorant pigf**kery come naturally to you.?
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The Ukrainians should surrender to avoid further bloodshed. They are being used as expendable cannon fodder by the US puppet government.
Your daily broadcast from Lord Haw-Haw.
Yawn.
It's a pity you the self proclaimed defender of the poor are not more concerned with the massive costs sanctions will put on the fuel and energy prices here in the UK. This is more important than crying about some one carrying out a military operation in a country which does not concern us.
Like when Germany invaded Poland & we ended up with our population on food rations as we went to war with Germany. What were we thinking about!
Could have been avoided though couldn't it? Do you think any of these foreigners are ever grateful to us? They all hate us as proved by the petty EU carry on over covid vaccines and border checks. We'll just end up with more so called refugees coming over here 'cause we're a soft touch for spongers. We should be a closed country and have nothing to do with anyone. We'd be a lot better off for it.
I’m wondering, do you get up especially early in the morning to practice, or does ignorant pigf**kery come naturally to you.?
It's a gift.
A shame more can't see through it all. All part of the plan for the new one world order.
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Perhaps this is not going as well as Putin had planned?
He's just called for the Ukrainian armed forces to turn on their leadership... Somehow I doubt that will happen.
And the MoD have reported their intelligence suggests the Russian army isn't making significant gains and has yet to take a major city.
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Perhaps this is not going as well as Putin had planned?
He's just called for the Ukrainian armed forces to turn on their leadership... Somehow I doubt that will happen.
And the MoD have reported their intelligence suggests the Russian army isn't making significant gains and has yet to take a major city.
The obvious reply back to him would be
Putin, go f**k yourself
He’s now realised it’s not the walk in the park he thought it would be
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Perhaps this is not going as well as Putin had planned?
He's just called for the Ukrainian armed forces to turn on their leadership... Somehow I doubt that will happen.
And the MoD have reported their intelligence suggests the Russian army isn't making significant gains and has yet to take a major city.
The obvious reply back to him would be
Putin, go f**k yourself
He’s now realised it’s not the walk in the park he thought it would be
It occurs to me the Russian army hasn't really come up against a people fighting to protect their democratic freedoms before. It does look like they are inspired, it's humbling to see.
It didn't workout so well for Russia in Afghanistan, when faced with a people inspired by religious zeal.
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The key to this might be how the Russian armed forces see it, when resistance is high and the incursion badly received back home.
I reckon it will revert to a defensive operation with the occupied Russian speaking east of Ukraine becoming independent of Kiev and officially neutral.
The continued military expansion has no obvious end that does not provoke further conflict.
That said, if Putin has lost the plot then can we rely upon rational assessment of the options?
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You're not a very compassionate man are you AL.
No.
Don't you have anything better to do than post on a forum of a club your team hasn't played for 6 years? Very sad.
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The key to this might be how the Russian armed forces see it, when resistance is high and the incursion badly received back home.
I reckon it will revert to a defensive operation with the occupied Russian speaking east of Ukraine becoming independent of Kiev and officially neutral.
The continued military expansion has no obvious end that does not provoke further conflict.
That said, if Putin has lost the plot then can we rely upon rational assessment of the options?
Personally I'm hoping one of his generals decides to blow his brains out.
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You're not a very compassionate man are you AL.
No.
Were you abused by your Dad as a child?
It's not uncommon amongst our more reactionary posters on here.
What the f**k is that supposed to mean?
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Putin's latest press conference is his most unhinged yet. I feel this man is genuinely dangerous for the world now, increasingly irrational, with seemingly his ego unable to take the resistance he has encountered.
I still think China is key here. His muddled call for talks in Belarus with the Ukrainian leadership directly followed that conversation. They need to put more pressure on him for a resolution.
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You're not a very compassionate man are you AL.
No.
Were you abused by your Dad as a child?
It's not uncommon amongst our more reactionary posters on here.
What the f**k is that supposed to mean?
Oh, I just wondered if there might be a link between people holding right wing views and authoritarian fathers. A couple of people on here have volunteered that information and It chimes with the experience of a friend I grew up with.
Then look at Donald Trump, famously authoritarian father. I get the feeling Margaret Thatchers greengrocer father was a very strict man too.
Interesting thought?
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The Ukrainians should surrender to avoid further bloodshed. They are being used as expendable cannon fodder by the US puppet government.
Your daily broadcast from Lord Haw-Haw.
Yawn.
It's a pity you the self proclaimed defender of the poor are not more concerned with the massive costs sanctions will put on the fuel and energy prices here in the UK. This is more important than crying about some one carrying out a military operation in a country which does not concern us.
Like when Germany invaded Poland & we ended up with our population on food rations as we went to war with Germany. What were we thinking about!
Could have been avoided though couldn't it? Do you think any of these foreigners are ever grateful to us? They all hate us as proved by the petty EU carry on over covid vaccines and border checks. We'll just end up with more so called refugees coming over here 'cause we're a soft touch for spongers. We should be a closed country and have nothing to do with anyone. We'd be a lot better off for it.
Yep, could have been avoided. And of course had we not gone to war with Germany, Axholme Hitler would never had invaded Britain.
I don't believe he would have if you look into it properly. Once again getting involved in other peoples problems cost us thousands and thousands of British lives. We never seem to learn from it. It's not worth our while, let europe look after themselves. What right do we have to set ourselves up as the worlds policeman? All the do gooders bleat on about our evil empire but seem happy for us stick our oar in now when ever anything kicks off.
So I no longer need to say that you'd have been a Hitler apologist in 1938. You've said it in your own words.
Thank f**k you are in a fraction of a percent of a minority.
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I’m beginning to wonder if Putin was abused as a child, or bullied at school.
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I’m beginning to wonder if Putin was abused as a child, or bullied at school.
The BBC have just said he had a very tough childhood. He once said as a child he learned if you're getting into a fight, make sure you throw the first punch.
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When a Ukrainian Soldier is prepared to sacrifice his own life to blow a bridge up and so stop Russian forces in that sector you know you are dealing with highly motivated people who are prepared to die for their country rather than be governed by one of Putin's choosing .
The Ukrainians will ultimately lose this part of the conflict .
However they won't be going away either and this will become guerrilla warfare .
I'd suggest there will be plenty of body bags getting used and flown back to Russia .
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Just read about that soldier tyke. Like something out of a film, that. Russia does seem to have underestimated the fight Ukraine would put up.
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UK NLAW anti tank weapon deployed in Ukraine, will scare the shit out of the Russians, hold it on target for three seconds and it guides its self to hit the target
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UK NLAW anti tank weapon deployed in Ukraine, will scare the shit out of the Russians, hold it on target for three seconds and it guides its self to hit the target
Just reading about that. Developed by Saab.
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Putins tactic is regime change.
He believes if he can install his own government then Ukraine will become compliant. I think he genuinely believes a return to authoritarianism will appeal to the Ukraine military, which is why he appealed to them today. I wonder if anyone told him about the soldier who sacrificed himself to slow Russia down? Or the soldiers who told the Russian navy to f**k off?
I think he underestimates the Ukrainian population. I don't think a pro-Putin leadership would be able to govern. The war will continue and become a protracted guerrilla affair.
How will the Russians react to ongoing economic sanctions and a steady flow of body bags returning home?
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I was very familiar with the 94mm LAW weapon system.
Utterly devastating at ranges up to 500 m.
Which is why I am shocked to see Russian tanks in urban areas.
Sitting ducks .
Let me at em.
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Just read about that soldier tyke. Like something out of a film, that. Russia does seem to have underestimated the fight Ukraine would put up.
What that supreme sacrifice and bravery on that scale tells me is that the Ukrainians believe they can win in the longer term .
Absolutely no soldier wants to die in vain , the Argentinean and Iraq's layed down their weapons in masse and surrendered during conflicts in the Falklands and the Gulf before fight .
Clearly nobody thought their life was worth losing for the Argentinean Junta or Saddam Hussein .
Apparently a dozen Ukranian soldiers were asked to surrender by a group of Russian soldiers earlier today as they had them surrounded .
The Ukrainians told them to go " feck themselves " and all sadly were killed .
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I’ve been watching the developing conflict.
It strikes me that this is not a “kill all” mission. He thinks he is going to win the Hearts and minds. He is deluded.
It seems Putin wants to take out conventional Ukrainian Military capability.
But what he has not bargained for is every eligible Ukrainian taking up arms.
So, a bit like Vietnam, He is engaging an enemy he cannot properly determine or asses. Like ISIS, he is not fighting a military might , he is engaging with an ideology. The ideology that Ukraine Is sovereign. Independent. And not willing to lie down to Russian aggression.
Good luck to him. He is going to need it .
He will fail while ever there are Ukrainians on Ukrainian soil willing to fight for their freedom.
They will prevail.
Russian soldiers have families behind them who do not support their actions.
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Conversely there are stories of some Russian soldiers refusing to fight and kill brother Ukrainians, laying down their arms and surrendering.
And thousands of ordinary Russians willing to risk prison and possible torture to protest against the war.
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The major concern for me is Putin has opened Pandora’s box.
And he is now powerless to close it.
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Putin now threatening Finland and Sweden. Completely batshit.
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Best they join NATO. ASAP.
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Putin now threatening Finland and Sweden. Completely batshit.
The Russians got more than they bargained for with the Finns when they invaded them in the early part of WW2 .
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Vladimir Klitchko mayor of Kyiv warning of a very difficult night ahead.
Reports of locals building makeshift roadblocks and local radio telling people how to make Molotov cocktails. Dads Army stuff but by god they've got guts.
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Vladimir Klitchko mayor of Kyiv warning of a very difficult night ahead.
Reports of locals building makeshift roadblocks and local radio telling people how to make Molotov cocktails. Dads Army stuff but by god they've got guts.
Apparently Molotov cocktails a very effective against tank when hitting near the air intake of the engine, kills the engine and the tank becomes a sitting duck
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Vladimir Klitchko mayor of Kyiv warning of a very difficult night ahead.
Reports of locals building makeshift roadblocks and local radio telling people how to make Molotov cocktails. Dads Army stuff but by god they've got guts.
Apparently Molotov cocktails a very effective against tank when hitting near the air intake of the engine, kills the engine and the tank becomes a sitting duck
They found that with Tigers and Panzers.
Zelensky giving a similar address to the nation, says the sunrise will come.
A very courageous man, never stopped urging them on despite having a price on his head.
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I feel so massively frustrated that we aren't helping these people in a direct fashion .
I feel so massively helpless , it's boiling my blood that the Ukrainians are going through this hell whilst we are doing relatively nothing directly .
I hold certain culturally right wing views but let me say every Ukrainian who flees their country is welcome in my country , My town , My village , My street and my workplace .
It's all I have to offer .
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China abstains at the UN security council, that is a massive kick in the teeth for Putin
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A lot more could be done
''More than £100bn of UK property is secretly owned (2 year old prices)
Analysis by Global Witness shows 87,000 properties – 40% of them in London – are anonymously owned by firms registered in tax havens''
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/17/100-billion-of-uk-propert-secretly-owned-anonymous-firms-tax-havens
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A lot more could be done
''More than £100bn of UK property is secretly owned (2 year old prices)
Analysis by Global Witness shows 87,000 properties – 40% of them in London – are anonymously owned by firms registered in tax havens''
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/17/100-billion-of-uk-propert-secretly-owned-anonymous-firms-tax-havens
They haven't even sleep walked in to this catastrophe Sydney because they knew full well the money was dirty and earned autocractically .
It boils my pyss that all of a sudden we've discovered a morality card , well kind of if you want to call it that .
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''It boils my pyss that all of a sudden we've discovered a morality card , well kind of if you want to call it that''
Not true tyke, this has been known and written about for years.
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China abstains at the UN security council, that is a massive kick in the teeth for Putin
Aye to clean up under another autocratic system .
China ain't my allie .
Time those feckers were also put in their box too .
Cheap yes they are but the humanitarian price is another story .
We need to have a good look at ourselves in my opinion .
A pair of jeans is a fiver for a reason .
Wake up folks .
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''It boils my pyss that all of a sudden we've discovered a morality card , well kind of if you want to call it that''
Not true tyke, this has been known and written about for years.
I'm not talking about you and me I'm talking about our government who are swimming in Russian money and yet ............???
All of a sudden reality hits home .
The Royal family and Nazi Germany spring to mind .
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''It boils my pyss that all of a sudden we've discovered a morality card , well kind of if you want to call it that''
Not true tyke, this has been known and written about for years.
I'm not talking about you and me I'm talking about our government who are swimming in Russian money and yet ............???
All of a sudden reality hits home .
The Royal family and Nazi Germany spring to mind .
Who knows what you're talking about as you don't say
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''It boils my pyss that all of a sudden we've discovered a morality card , well kind of if you want to call it that''
Not true tyke, this has been known and written about for years.
I'm not talking about you and me I'm talking about our government who are swimming in Russian money and yet ............???
All of a sudden reality hits home .
The Royal family and Nazi Germany spring to mind .
Who knows what you're talking about as you don't say
To be honest Sydney you'd fall out with yourself in a phone box .
Then again your thousands of miles away from this current European situation so you probably don't feel what we do .
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And so to bed, tonight I will be thinking of those brave souls in Ukraine.
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And so to bed, tonight I will be thinking of those brave souls in Ukraine.
Amen to that. They are going to go through hell tonight.
And as someone has said tonight, if they give the Russians a bloody nose, Putin, bas**rd that he is, has previous on unconstrained flattening of cities.
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And so to bed, tonight I will be thinking of those brave souls in Ukraine.
From what I read from sources close to the action so to speak the Russians are absorbing huge loses in their advancement .
Ever inch they progress comes at a huge cost .
Those Russian soldiers are somebody's husband , father , brother and son .
If Putin succeeds then so what with the lives that its cost .
He's made a monumental error here , he's fecked it .
God be with the Ukrainians .
I have no words that can even reconcile with with the sacrifice they are willing to endure .
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this is quite something
''Kazakhstan, one of Russia's closest allies and a southern neighbor, is denying a request for its troops to join the offensive in Ukraine, officials said Friday.
Additionally, the former Soviet republic said it is not recognizing the Russia-created breakaway republics upheld by Russia's president, Vladimir Putin, as a pretext for its aggression in Ukraine.
Despite ceasefire accords covering the disputed land, Putin on Monday declared Russia's recognition of Luhansk People’s Republic (LNR) and the Donetsk People’s Republic (DNR) as independent states.
The surprising development from a traditional ally of Russia has the support of the United States.
“We welcome Kazakhstan’s announcement that they will not recognize the LPR and DPR," the National Security Council said in a statement. "We also welcome Kazakhstan’s refusal to send its forces to join Putin’s war in Ukraine."
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/russia-ukraine-live-updates-n1289976/ncrd1289985#liveBlogCards
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A lot more could be done
''More than £100bn of UK property is secretly owned (2 year old prices)
Analysis by Global Witness shows 87,000 properties – 40% of them in London – are anonymously owned by firms registered in tax havens''
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/17/100-billion-of-uk-propert-secretly-owned-anonymous-firms-tax-havens
what would that do to help the Ukrainians right now? Nothing more can be done to help them unless the are boots on the ground and I doubt that would stop putin
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When a Ukrainian Soldier is prepared to sacrifice his own life to blow a bridge up and so stop Russian forces in that sector you know you are dealing with highly motivated people who are prepared to die for their country rather than be governed by one of Putin's choosing .
The Ukrainians will ultimately lose this part of the conflict .
However they won't be going away either and this will become guerrilla warfare .
I'd suggest there will be plenty of body bags getting used and flown back to Russia .
Your reference to guerilla warfare and the body bags being flown back to Russia reminded me of this song. It's called 'Just don't tell mum I'm in Chechnya' and references the 'black tulips' (the aircraft used to fly the bodies home). There is a previous version that deals with Russia in Afghanistan. I wonder if down the line there'll be one to do with Ukraine.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DHCzaiJEoEY
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A lot more could be done
''More than £100bn of UK property is secretly owned (2 year old prices)
Analysis by Global Witness shows 87,000 properties – 40% of them in London – are anonymously owned by firms registered in tax havens''
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/mar/17/100-billion-of-uk-propert-secretly-owned-anonymous-firms-tax-havens
what would that do to help the Ukrainians right now? Nothing more can be done to help them unless the are boots on the ground and I doubt that would stop putin
It reinforces and unites the west in support of Ukrainians, it stops rich russian criminals getting access to their money. Are you in support of russian criminals investing their money in the UK bp?
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A local Kyiv man just interviewed live confirmed reports from a day ago that said there are a lot of very young russian troops, he they hadn't enough food and fuel and were trying to make their way back to russia.
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Personally I doubt the Russian army is that ill disciplined. Especially not after only 2 days, and that of forward movement.
Understanding motivations become paramount in time of war. Truth is irrelevant.
BobG
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The Khazak statement is quite a thing, especially considering they sought Russian military aid recently.
...I wonder... Is what is left of Putin's beloved Soviet Union finally crumbling?
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Apparently the Americans offered Zelensky evacuation.
He told them I need ammo not a ride.
I am lost in admiration. That man is a hero.
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Apparently the Americans offered Zelensky evacuation.
He told them I need ammo not a ride.
I am lost in admiration. That man is a hero.
As is every Ukrainian that has answer the call to take up arms, including millionaires like the Klitshko Brothers, and various other high profile Ukrainian sports stars
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A local Kyiv man just interviewed live confirmed reports from a day ago that said there are a lot of very young russian troops, he they hadn't enough food and fuel and were trying to make their way back to russia.
There will obviously be lots of propaganda from both sides.
You can’t put too much store into comments like the one above.
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A local Kyiv man just interviewed live confirmed reports from a day ago that said there are a lot of very young russian troops, he they hadn't enough food and fuel and were trying to make their way back to russia.
There will obviously be lots of propaganda from both sides.
You can’t put too much store into comments like the one above.
I'll try and get his number and tell him
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twitter max seddon
This is potentially a bigger deal than even Germany signing on – Cyprus is one of Russia's biggest foreign investors (it's Russians with Cypriot offshore companies investing back in Russia) and the second biggest bank in Cyprus is Russian
Dmytro Kuleba
@DmytroKuleba
We did it. Cyprus confirmed it will not block the decision to ban Russia from SWIFT. Ukrainian diplomacy keeps working 24/7 to achieve important decisions and protect Ukraine from Russian invaders.
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Turkey bans Russian warships from using the Bosphorus, now that is a NATO Country getting involved, over to you Putin
Thats the Black Sea fleet effectively marooned
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Orban in Hungary has agreed to block Russian access to SWIFT. That's the entire EU signed up.
If Orban is turning against Putin, that's a massive sign of which way the wind is blowing.
I fear for what this means. Ukraine clearly isn't going to roll over. There's going to be horrific street fighting. Putin's previous suggests this will be bestial. No holds barred.
But now this isn't against people who can be dismissed as subhuman Islamic Jihadists, whose extermination can be ignored. It's white, blonde haired Christians, 90 mins flight from the centre of Europe who are going to be put through the meat grinder.
And the rats who have supported him are now deserting him in droves, from Beijing to Astana to Budapest, before they get tarred with his disgusting brush.
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Seeing things on twitter, I know not always accurate, but because Putin thought it would be easy the Russian tanks are running out of fuel and the army running out of food to feed them. The are suffering huge losses, Ukraine are fighting valiantly
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Turkey bans Russian warships from using the Bosphorus, now that is a NATO Country getting involved, over to you Putin
Thats the Black Sea fleet effectively marooned
Turkey hasn't officially confirmed this.
I'd be very surprised if they do this, I can't see the Turks confronting the Russian navy.
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Interesting report from the Mail. Not sure how accurate any of this is.
Estonia’s former defence chief Riho Terras has now claimed that Putin’s war is not going to plan because Russia is fast running out of money and weapons, and will have to enter negotiations with Volodymyr Zelensky’s government if Kyiv holds off the Russians for 10 days.
Russia’s tyrant has allegedly convened a meeting with the oligarchs in a bunker in the Ural Mountains, at which it is claimed that he furiously vented that he thought the war would be ‘easy’ and ‘everything would be done in one to four days’.
Citing Ukrainian intelligence sources, Terras claimed that the war is costing Russia around £15billion-per-day, and that they have rockets for three to four days at most, which they are using sparingly.
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I've ran the full range of emotions today - really strange as I have no connection to the Ukraine.
I was in tears when saw a live report of all the people signing up and a work chain being formed to make Molotov cocktails..
I was angered when I saw the false reports from the Putin pack and the Russian media..
and I felt great pride in the united response of the European nations...... and the Russian public.
I'm also fast becoming a fan of President Volodymyr Zelensky...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-60539193
I felt an overwhelming sense of doom on Thursday and Friday - but today I feel like I'm sitting in my Ukrainian T-shirt and willing them on...
I've just given money to the cause, but can't help but feel that I wish I could do more for the people of my now second favourite country....... so very brave and resilient...
-
Agree MM. I also had a wave of emotion come over me this morning watching all those displaced people on the telly.
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A mate was telling me that a friend of his Polish wife that is Russian face timed her mother in Russia who was saying the troops were doing well and killing the murderous Ukranians soldiers.
Her daughter then explained to her mum the reality of the situation and watching RT for news was no good.
The younger Russians getting news via the Internet are far more in Sync with the rest of the world and know exactly what Putin's trying to do and despise him for it.
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A mate was telling me that a friend of his Polish wife that is Russian face timed her mother in Russia who was saying the troops were doing well and killing the murderous Ukranians soldiers.
Her daughter then explained to her mum the reality of the situation and watching RT for news was no good.
The younger Russians getting news via the Internet are far more in Sync with the rest of the world and know exactly what Putin's trying to do and despise him for it.
Yep idler, as i said earlier, it is a very different world now to what we had in 1938.
The internet and face time etc make real news much more easy to get.
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A mate was telling me that a friend of his Polish wife that is Russian face timed her mother in Russia who was saying the troops were doing well and killing the murderous Ukranians soldiers.
Her daughter then explained to her mum the reality of the situation and watching RT for news was no good.
The younger Russians getting news via the Internet are far more in Sync with the rest of the world and know exactly what Putin's trying to do and despise him for it.
There's a lot of enmity among older Polish and Ukrainian people, going back to the War.
we need the younger generations to look for ties that bind rather than reasons to hate.
-
There was a piece on tv earlier today about how some Russian people were seeing the current situation.
Most of the younger ones interviewed were against Putin and the invasion of Ukraine.
-
Information just wants to be free.
It's so much harder to control information today, I certainly don't think Putin has anything like the same level of control the Chinese have.
-
I do think that the educated Russians deplore Putin’s actions and the young Russians know exactly what the rest of the world really thinks about Putin and his regime.
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I think Putin is on thin ice, he needs to capture Kyiv very soon, or he may eventually be overthrown by his own people
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I think Putin is on thin ice, he needs to capture Kyiv very soon, or he may eventually be overthrown by his own people
I dearly hope so.
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I think Putin is on thin ice, he needs to capture Kyiv very soon, or he may eventually be overthrown by his own people
I dearly hope so.
The poker player may have gone all in on the wrong hand
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It appears the heavy weapons will reach the outskirts of Kyiv tonight.
An expert on the news suggests the Ukrainians might be better off allowing the Russians into the city. It would make it hard to bombard them and allow them to use guerilla tactics and inflict casualties that way.
No doubt they will be getting advice from western specialists.
-
There must be a lot of powerful Russians now questioning Putin’s ability to govern Russia in any way that the rest of the world won’t condemn. I wonder how many conversations are going on with these people behind closed doors?
It is only fear stopping more internal criticism.
-
More protests in St Petersburg tonight.
They are small in scale but they are still happening.
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Brave souls indeed.
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I think he thought it be over the first day a Putch with the Ukrainian armed forces capitulating that hasn't happened and he now has to become a War criminal and kill women and children and destroy civilians targets, something we haven't yet seen except for the odd stray missile, bearing in mind the close links between Russians and Ukrainians this is going to be very difficult to enforce. I don't think the Russian soldiers have their hearts in it, reminds me of Mussolini and the Italian army in the Second World War.
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He's been a war criminal for 20 years, since he flattened Grozny. The difference is, if he does it this time, it will be beamed into living rooms all over the world, and no amount of censorship will keep that quiet.
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The contortions that the far left/right go through when their 4th form vision of reality gets dragged out of debating halls and comes up against the real world.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Fio_edwards/status/1492444755300651011
"Russia is not the aggressor".
Dear f**king God in heaven.
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Oh man,
Sky have just shown footage of a Ukranian soldier striding unflinching through a fire fight. Ranting about Russian f**king animals with a British anti tank launcher on his shoulder.
He signs off "I swear I'll never speak Russian again.
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Roman abramavic has handed over control of Chelsea to the charity trust that has been set up
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The contortions that the far left/right go through when their 4th form vision of reality gets dragged out of debating halls and comes up against the real world.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Fio_edwards/status/1492444755300651011
"Russia is not the aggressor".
Dear f**king God in heaven.
Yeah but it is Twitter so we know what sort of crap goes out on there.
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Roman abramavic has handed over control of Chelsea to the charity trust that has been set up
Protecting his asset from being seized
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Surely that could be challenged though, is he hiding an asset.
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Oh man,
Sky have just shown footage of a Ukranian soldier striding unflinching through a fire fight. Ranting about Russian f**king animals with a British anti tank launcher on his shoulder.
He signs off "I swear I'll never speak Russian again.
They've just shown it again. I'm not sure if he's brave or just incandescent with anger. Whatever it's impressive, like something out of Apocalypse Now. I love the smell of napalm in the morning.
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Roman abramavic has handed over control of Chelsea to the charity trust that has been set up
Protecting his asset from being seized
Correct , you can't seize assets from a charity .
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Oh man,
Sky have just shown footage of a Ukranian soldier striding unflinching through a fire fight. Ranting about Russian f**king animals with a British anti tank launcher on his shoulder.
He signs off "I swear I'll never speak Russian again.
They've just shown it again. I'm not sure if he's brave or just incandescent with anger. Whatever it's impressive, like something out of Apocalypse Now. I love the smell of napalm in the morning.
I couldn't believe what I was watching when I saw this guy .
I'm going with brave and highly motivated and prepared to die to defend his country .
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I've ran the full range of emotions today - really strange as I have no connection to the Ukraine.
I was in tears when saw a live report of all the people signing up and a work chain being formed to make Molotov cocktails..
I was angered when I saw the false reports from the Putin pack and the Russian media..
and I felt great pride in the united response of the European nations...... and the Russian public.
I'm also fast becoming a fan of President Volodymyr Zelensky...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-60539193
I felt an overwhelming sense of doom on Thursday and Friday - but today I feel like I'm sitting in my Ukrainian T-shirt and willing them on...
I've just given money to the cause, but can't help but feel that I wish I could do more for the people of my now second favourite country....... so very brave and resilient...
MM how do you donate money to the Ukrainian cause ?
I also want to donate .
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Oh man,
Sky have just shown footage of a Ukranian soldier striding unflinching through a fire fight. Ranting about Russian f**king animals with a British anti tank launcher on his shoulder.
He signs off "I swear I'll never speak Russian again.
They've just shown it again. I'm not sure if he's brave or just incandescent with anger. Whatever it's impressive, like something out of Apocalypse Now. I love the smell of napalm in the morning.
I couldn't believe what I was watching when I saw this guy .
I'm going with brave and highly motivated and prepared to die to defend his country .
Has anyone got a link to this. I don’t have sky tv.
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Oh man,
Sky have just shown footage of a Ukranian soldier striding unflinching through a fire fight. Ranting about Russian f**king animals with a British anti tank launcher on his shoulder.
He signs off "I swear I'll never speak Russian again.
They've just shown it again. I'm not sure if he's brave or just incandescent with anger. Whatever it's impressive, like something out of Apocalypse Now. I love the smell of napalm in the morning.
I couldn't believe what I was watching when I saw this guy .
I'm going with brave and highly motivated and prepared to die to defend his country .
Has anyone got a link to this. I don’t have sky tv.
Tried finding it on YouTube Hound but it's not listed for some reason .
Don't know why .
-
Oh man,
Sky have just shown footage of a Ukranian soldier striding unflinching through a fire fight. Ranting about Russian f**king animals with a British anti tank launcher on his shoulder.
He signs off "I swear I'll never speak Russian again.
They've just shown it again. I'm not sure if he's brave or just incandescent with anger. Whatever it's impressive, like something out of Apocalypse Now. I love the smell of napalm in the morning.
I couldn't believe what I was watching when I saw this guy .
I'm going with brave and highly motivated and prepared to die to defend his country .
Has anyone got a link to this. I don’t have sky tv.
Tried finding it on YouTube Hound but it's not listed for some reason .
Don't know why .
Yeah, I googled it too and it didn’t come up with anything.
Maybe the Russians have blocked it.
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How can this maniac succeed? Almost the whole world is against him, and I'm pretty sure most Russians are.
It wouldn't surprise me if someone assassinated him.
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Is it this one
https://twitter.com/ukrainenews0/status/1497597008755970061?s=21
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How can this maniac succeed? Almost the whole world is against him, and I'm pretty sure most Russians are.
It wouldn't surprise me if someone assassinated him.
They would have to get to his bunker first in the mountains, he’s a bully and a coward
-
Oh man,
Sky have just shown footage of a Ukranian soldier striding unflinching through a fire fight. Ranting about Russian f**king animals with a British anti tank launcher on his shoulder.
He signs off "I swear I'll never speak Russian again.
They've just shown it again. I'm not sure if he's brave or just incandescent with anger. Whatever it's impressive, like something out of Apocalypse Now. I love the smell of napalm in the morning.
I couldn't believe what I was watching when I saw this guy .
I'm going with brave and highly motivated and prepared to die to defend his country .
Has anyone got a link to this. I don’t have sky tv.
Tried finding it on YouTube Hound but it's not listed for some reason .
Don't know why .
Yeah, I googled it too and it didn’t come up with anything.
Maybe the Russians have blocked it.
Sky News keep showing it. Freeview channel 233.
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Is it this one
https://twitter.com/ukrainenews0/status/1497597008755970061?s=21
That's the one Filo .
-
How can this maniac succeed? Almost the whole world is against him, and I'm pretty sure most Russians are.
It wouldn't surprise me if someone assassinated him.
The West including this government have created this bstrd Steve .
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How can this maniac succeed? Almost the whole world is against him, and I'm pretty sure most Russians are.
It wouldn't surprise me if someone assassinated him.
They would have to get to his bunker first in the mountains, he’s a bully and a coward
Where is 007 when you need him?
-
I've ran the full range of emotions today - really strange as I have no connection to the Ukraine.
I was in tears when saw a live report of all the people signing up and a work chain being formed to make Molotov cocktails..
I was angered when I saw the false reports from the Putin pack and the Russian media..
and I felt great pride in the united response of the European nations...... and the Russian public.
I'm also fast becoming a fan of President Volodymyr Zelensky...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-60539193
I felt an overwhelming sense of doom on Thursday and Friday - but today I feel like I'm sitting in my Ukrainian T-shirt and willing them on...
I've just given money to the cause, but can't help but feel that I wish I could do more for the people of my now second favourite country....... so very brave and resilient...
Can you post the details please MM, we were discussing how we could do this last night.
-
I'd like to know too please.
BobG
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It's just mental watching those videos in 2022. Crazy.
I do have some sympathy for the Russians fighting. Like any army they're following orders of their government and in many many cases paying the ultimate price.
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The best thing the UK could do right now is removing visa restrictions on people fleeing war zones.
The UK Nationality Bill gives the right to remove asylum claims from war refugees for a range of spurious criteria, none of which are relevant to the need to evacuate for personal safety.
Any politician who opposes offering support to refugees in these circumstances is a moral leper of the worst kind.
We managed to find visa approvals for Russian oligarchs in their droves when we were looking to enable money laundering on an industrial scale.
Let your MP know that this is the least we can do!
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It's just mental watching those videos in 2022. Crazy.
I do have some sympathy for the Russians fighting. Like any army they're following orders of their government and in many many cases paying the ultimate price.
Very true , Putin does not represent the Russian people .
I think that's a point that you've highlighted that we need to remember .
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It's just mental watching those videos in 2022. Crazy.
I do have some sympathy for the Russians fighting. Like any army they're following orders of their government and in many many cases paying the ultimate price.
Most of those young lads don't know why they are there, they did not even know they would have to fight. Some are horrified at having to engage with Ukraianians.
This is the work of a few powerful old men. If only the wider Russian population understood what was going on, they'd string them up on gallows in red square.
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It's just mental watching those videos in 2022. Crazy.
I do have some sympathy for the Russians fighting. Like any army they're following orders of their government and in many many cases paying the ultimate price.
Very true , Putin does not represent the Russian people .
I think that's a point that you've highlighted that we need to remember .
I think what almost the whole world wants to see now is Putin swinging by the neck on the end of a rope
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Give it time... If the Ukrainians choose to fight on, a la the Mujahadin in the 80s, or the Vietcong in the 70s, this will become bestial, evil and, eventually, when the Russian body count is high enough, the funeral pyre of Putin's Russia.
Snag is, it will take a very long time and it will be the Ukrainians and ordinary Russians who pay the price
BobG
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It's fascinating in that for the very first time the reality of war is being beamed to people's phones almost in real time. I wonder if Putin has failed to grasp the effect that has on public opinion. Not in Russia, where his lackeys are controlling what people can see. But everywhere else.
I'm guessing he was counting on a quick win, with Europe and America then accepting the fait accompli and going back to business as usual.
But that's not going to happen. There's going to be carnage, street by street in Kviy and Kharkov. And voters in the West are going to see it on their screens. And no democracy is every going to find an accommodation with Putin ever again.
f**k his gas.
f**k his money.
f**k his football teams.
f**k him and the cancer he brings to the world.
If civilians in Ukraine can stand in front of tanks, and prepare trenches in their own city centres, the least we can do, the absolute least, is to take some economic pain to make sure this evil bas**rd is isolated and forced to shrivel away.
And hold to account any domestic politician who so much as breathes a word about business as usual with Russia until he has gone.
-
It's fascinating in that for the very first time the reality of war is being beamed to people's phones almost in real time. I wonder if Putin has failed to grasp the effect that has on public opinion. Not in Russia, where his lackeys are controlling what people can see. But everywhere else.
I'm guessing he was counting on a quick win, with Europe and America then accepting the fait accompli and going back to business as usual.
But that's not going to happen. There's going to be carnage, street by street in Kviy and Kharkov. And voters in the West are going to see it on their screens. And no democracy is every going to find an accommodation with Putin ever again.
f**k his gas.
f**k his money.
f**k his football teams.
f**k him and the cancer he brings to the world.
If civilians in Ukraine can stand in front of tanks, and prepare trenches in their own city centres, the least we can do, the absolute least, is to take some economic pain to make sure this evil bas**rd is isolated and forced to shrivel away.
And hold to account any domestic politician who so much as breathes a word about business as usual with Russia until he has gone.
When Orban turns his back on you then you know your fuqed .
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I've never known a conflict abroad that has captured so many hearts and minds .
I'm personally massively emotionally involved where as in other conflicts I wasn't so .
I don't know why but in any case it doesn't much matter .
Maybe it's everything that's wrong with this world that's getting played out in Ukraine .
Maybe this is a turning point , it fecking should be .
-
It's fascinating in that for the very first time the reality of war is being beamed to people's phones almost in real time. I wonder if Putin has failed to grasp the effect that has on public opinion. Not in Russia, where his lackeys are controlling what people can see. But everywhere else.
I'm guessing he was counting on a quick win, with Europe and America then accepting the fait accompli and going back to business as usual.
But that's not going to happen. There's going to be carnage, street by street in Kviy and Kharkov. And voters in the West are going to see it on their screens. And no democracy is every going to find an accommodation with Putin ever again.
f**k his gas.
f**k his money.
f**k his football teams.
f**k him and the cancer he brings to the world.
If civilians in Ukraine can stand in front of tanks, and prepare trenches in their own city centres, the least we can do, the absolute least, is to take some economic pain to make sure this evil bas**rd is isolated and forced to shrivel away.
And hold to account any domestic politician who so much as breathes a word about business as usual with Russia until he has gone.
When Oban turns his back on you then you know your fuqed .
Precisely what I mean. Orban has locked Putin's arse and done his bidding in Europe for 15 years. But the Hungarians aren't idiots. They see what is happening next door. And Orban knows that he has to distance himself or be swept away.
-
As Johnny Vegas said to John Lydon, I'll defeat you with love.
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I've never known a conflict abroad that has captured so many hearts and minds .
I'm personally massively emotionally involved where as in other conflicts I wasn't so .
I don't know why but in any case it doesn't much matter .
Maybe it's everything that's wrong with this world that's getting played out in Ukraine .
Maybe this is a turning point , it fecking should be .
There's not been as black and white a case of illegal aggression for years...decades even. There's no shades of grey in this.
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On flight radar at this very moment two Russian military planes, probably carrying airborne troops are fly directly toward Kyiv
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On flight radar at this very moment two Russian military planes, probably carrying airborne troops are fly directly toward Kyiv
Aye and many of them will die on the streets of Kyiv .
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Breaking. Russia is being kicked off SWIFT. This is big.
-
Genuine question lads.
Can the average Russian citizen, living in Russia, see from the internet and FaceTime etc, what we can see.
Or is there some kind of block in place preventing that.
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Breaking. Russia is being kicked off SWIFT. This is big.
Absolutely .
We have to absorb the pain too to stop this bstrd .
What ever this decision leads to for me personally well feck it .
I'll still be alive tomorow and many Ukrainians won't be .
It's all I have .
-
Genuine question lads.
Can the average Russian citizen, living in Russia, see from the internet and FaceTime etc, what we can see.
Or is there some kind of block in place preventing that.
It seems those who are tech savvy know what's going on. Those with links abroad too.
Those who rely on state TV news and RT are in the dark. There are still a lot of people in Russia who only get information from official sources.
-
Genuine question lads.
Can the average Russian citizen, living in Russia, see from the internet and FaceTime etc, what we can see.
Or is there some kind of block in place preventing that.
Probably depends on how good you are navigating the restrictions Hound .
Probably most Russians as over here aren't that tech .
They get the news that's presented to them .
-
Genuine question lads.
Can the average Russian citizen, living in Russia, see from the internet and FaceTime etc, what we can see.
Or is there some kind of block in place preventing that.
It seems those who are tech savvy know what's going on. Those with links abroad too.
Those who rely on state TV news and RT are in the dark. There are still a lot of people in Russia who only get information from official sources.
Yep, I understand about the state tv etc.
So it appears to be that the average citizen doesn’t have access to FaceTime or even Facebook then, or the internet.
-
Genuine question lads.
Can the average Russian citizen, living in Russia, see from the internet and FaceTime etc, what we can see.
Or is there some kind of block in place preventing that.
Reports on twitter that the anonymous hackers group have hacked Russian TV and a broadcasting what is happening in Ukraine
-
Genuine question lads.
Can the average Russian citizen, living in Russia, see from the internet and FaceTime etc, what we can see.
Or is there some kind of block in place preventing that.
Reports on twitter that the anonymous hackers group have hacked Russian TV and a broadcasting what is happening in Ukraine
Well if that is true then we might yet see a kind of revolution against Putin because I can’t believe that generally the Russian population are in favour of what is going on.
It appears then that Putin lackeys are not controlling what people can see.
-
Genuine question lads.
Can the average Russian citizen, living in Russia, see from the internet and FaceTime etc, what we can see.
Or is there some kind of block in place preventing that.
It seems those who are tech savvy know what's going on. Those with links abroad too.
Those who rely on state TV news and RT are in the dark. There are still a lot of people in Russia who only get information from official sources.
Yep, I understand about the state tv etc.
So it appears to be that the average citizen doesn’t have access to FaceTime or even Facebook then, or the internet.
It appears not so much, Putin has been busy placing restrictions on social media today.
Information just wants to be free.
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Genuine question lads.
Can the average Russian citizen, living in Russia, see from the internet and FaceTime etc, what we can see.
Or is there some kind of block in place preventing that.
It seems those who are tech savvy know what's going on. Those with links abroad too.
Those who rely on state TV news and RT are in the dark. There are still a lot of people in Russia who only get information from official sources.
Yep, I understand about the state tv etc.
So it appears to be that the average citizen doesn’t have access to FaceTime or even Facebook then, or the internet.
It appears not so much, Putin has been busy placing restrictions on social media today.
Information just wants to be free.
So, also if that is true, it answers my original question.
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Yeah, Putin is trying to limit online information.
The older part of the population are much less tech savvy and so rely much more on traditional media, TV and radio anyway.
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Genuine question lads.
Can the average Russian citizen, living in Russia, see from the internet and FaceTime etc, what we can see.
Or is there some kind of block in place preventing that.
Reports on twitter that the anonymous hackers group have hacked Russian TV and a broadcasting what is happening in Ukraine
Well if that is true then we might yet see a kind of revolution against Putin because I can’t believe that generally the Russian population are in favour of what is going on.
It appears then that Putin lackeys are not controlling what people can see.
There's no revolution like a Russian one Hound if we go on history .
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just in case you haven't seen it
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/driver-offers-russian-tank-crew-26337435
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just in case you haven't seen it
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/driver-offers-russian-tank-crew-26337435
It's videos like that which sum up the point isn't it? Those Russians dont in large cases want to be there.
My concern is how Putin reacts to sanctions. Will he accept them or push back harder? I fear we could push him too hard and he has no limit.
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just in case you haven't seen it
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/driver-offers-russian-tank-crew-26337435
It's videos like that which sum up the point isn't it? Those Russians dont in large cases want to be there.
My concern is how Putin reacts to sanctions. Will he accept them or push back harder? I fear we could push him too hard and he has no limit.
In my early years I was taught to turn the other cheek, I haven't done that for a long time as it didn't work then .........
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just in case you haven't seen it
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/driver-offers-russian-tank-crew-26337435
It's videos like that which sum up the point isn't it? Those Russians dont in large cases want to be there.
My concern is how Putin reacts to sanctions. Will he accept them or push back harder? I fear we could push him too hard and he has no limit.
In my early years I was taught to turn the other cheek, I haven't done that for a long time as it didn't work then .........
Turning the other cheek does work but it requires extreme commitment.
See Mahatma Ghandi.
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I used to work somewhere that had a very close and personal interest in Russia and its leaders; that had vast multi national resources, and, a frightening squadron of intellectual giants.
Their conclusion, unanimously, was that Putin is the most dangerous man on the planet.
I don't see them being wrong, even though a rival has appeared in recent years.
BobG
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Agreed RD, I don't advocate war but strong defence, anyone thinking giving up Ukraine easily would end it are wrong, it would only invite a larger conflict in the Balkans later.
This is a fairly strong, measured and growing response from the west and obviously needs to remain united against the aggressor.
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The last 24 hours has indicated that Putin is entirely isolated in world politics, barring his co-fascist dictator in Belarus.
The question now is: how does he respond?
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My opinion is this you cannot be running scared of a bully .
Let's be clear this is about one man and when push comes to shove absolutely nobody in his close circle is going to let him press the red button because they die too and if they don't then they may as well do .
You have to stare this fecker down and have a pair .
Its time we went on the offensive with this fecker and flipped this the other way instead of the defensive position we currently adopt .
He's one man , that's all he is .
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Wow. I'd missed this one.
https://mobile.twitter.com/vonderleyen/status/1497696378461593605
That is a massive step. All out economic war against the Russian state.
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My opinion is this you cannot be running scared of a bully .
Let's be clear this is about one man and when push comes to shove absolutely nobody in his close circle is going to let him press the red button because they die too and if they don't then they may as well do .
You have to stare this fecker down and have a pair .
Its time we went on the offensive with this fecker and flipped this the other way instead of the defensive position we currently adopt .
He's one man , that's all he is .
NATO entering the war now?
Very high risk. Putin might send a warning shot and they might go along with it. Obliterate London.
Then things would inevitably escalate.
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China is supporting putin, buying more wheat and coal, by how much we will see but hopefully an increasing financial strangle hold on Russia may deter China from a similar opportunist venture over Taiwan.
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Oh boy.. The west is showing its teeth now. The risk is it pushes Putin too far. Politically, he can't back down... and if he actually did, imagine the pent up rage and frustration that would cause. He's already shown he has a very long memory...
BobG
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The best thing the UK could do right now is removing visa restrictions on people fleeing war zones.
The UK Nationality Bill gives the right to remove asylum claims from war refugees for a range of spurious criteria, none of which are relevant to the need to evacuate for personal safety.
Any politician who opposes offering support to refugees in these circumstances is a moral leper of the worst kind.
We managed to find visa approvals for Russian oligarchs in their droves when we were looking to enable money laundering on an industrial scale.
Let your MP know that this is the least we can do!
100%.
And suggestions like this, from an obscure Tory MP that refugees should apply for fruit-picking jobs to get a visa are...beyond words.
https://mobile.twitter.com/deletedbyMPs/status/1497697221252366337
I cannot emphasise enough that absolutely noone should be trying to make cheap political points out if this catastrophe. But equally, the Govt and ruling party must be held to account if we are going to show our true soul in dealing with the humanitarian disaster.
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I've just read, again, the BBC 'highlights' page. And you know what? I've got tears, real bloody tears, in my eyes right now. That utter bas**rd. Living proof of the old maxim about power corrupting.
BobG
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For those wishing to donate to the cause, as some have asked, there are a number of outlets.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/24/how-can-britons-help-the-people-of-ukraine (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/24/how-can-britons-help-the-people-of-ukraine)
I have already donated to the Red Cross emergency appeal and will be donating to a fundraiser to help Ukraine's media continue to operate tomorrow - that one is being done by Kyiv Independent who are managing to continue providing live updates on events to the world despite being bunkered in in Kyiv.
I feel so powerless and wish I could do more for Ukraine. This is what I can do, however small an impact it may have.
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I'm wondering just how this horror could be turned to advantage. It's inevitably going to be part of the thinking in Western capitals.
Putin out is obvious. But what else? SWIFT offers the Chinese a huge opportunity so that will need to be countered.
Decisively weaken Russian firepower and Russian economic strength are 2 more obvious ones.
Capitalist opportunities for reconstruction is another.
What else could be on the table now?
BobG
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AMD and Intel join in.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1497732381033259010
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Genuine question, are the Azoz Battalion the good guys?
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Putin is in power because the oligarchs, like Abramovich, owe their wealth to him and keep him power. Take that wealth away and you will see that support disappear.
Bill Browder explains this in Red Notice - essential readig to understanding Putin's Russia
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Red-Notice-Finance-Murder-Justice/dp/1476755744
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I think what really sustains Putin is the oil and gas.
Closing that is one sanction the west hasn't taken because nations like Germany and Italy and dependant upon it. There is the real problem.
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BP own 22% of the Russian state oild company, Rosneft (which netted them £2.7 billion last year). There is no reason or excuse for purchasing anything at all, or allowing any British company to have financial dealings with Russia at this time.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/feb/25/bps-ties-to-russia-draw-uk-government-concern
But whilst that may be effective in the long term it will have little short term effect as Putin has supposedly built up massive cash reserves in preparation for the invasion.
Browder in todays Mirror
he man who devised the first sanctions list against Putin’s cronies says the latest UK efforts are “missing the target” – which should be the dictator himself.
US Banker and anti-corruption activist Bill Browder says the crackdown should hit the Kremlin chief’s own wealth, which is kept safe and sound in London by a handful of his oligarch stooges.
Mr Browder said: “ Vladimir Putin ’s a very selfish man. He doesn’t care about other people, so sanctioning people around him doesn’t affect him.
“The only way is to hit his personal assets – and they are held by people known to us. We needed to make a list of top oligarchs two months ago and start hitting them five at a time, so he could see we are coming after his money. These men are well-known to us, they’re on the Forbes rich list and some of them even own football teams.”
https://twitter.com/Billbrowder/status/1497863345373913089
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The best thing the UK could do right now is removing visa restrictions on people fleeing war zones.
The UK Nationality Bill gives the right to remove asylum claims from war refugees for a range of spurious criteria, none of which are relevant to the need to evacuate for personal safety.
Any politician who opposes offering support to refugees in these circumstances is a moral leper of the worst kind.
We managed to find visa approvals for Russian oligarchs in their droves when we were looking to enable money laundering on an industrial scale.
Let your MP know that this is the least we can do!
100%.
And suggestions like this, from an obscure Tory MP that refugees should apply for fruit-picking jobs to get a visa are...beyond words.
https://mobile.twitter.com/deletedbyMPs/status/1497697221252366337
I cannot emphasise enough that absolutely noone should be trying to make cheap political points out if this catastrophe. But equally, the Govt and ruling party must be held to account if we are going to show our true soul in dealing with the humanitarian disaster.
One of the main journalist's on Russian tv, currently pushing Kremlin propoganda, has a British passport, a flat in London and is on the electoral roll here.
Must have picked a lot of fruit.
https://twitter.com/Billbrowder/status/1497688199728091136
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Ergodan firming up his language against Russia, this is a good sign and may lead to the closure of black sea traffic.
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Ergodan firming up his language against Russia, this is a good sign and may lead to the closure of black sea traffic.
Have to be careful there. We don't want a NATO member getting itself into military conflict with Russia
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For those wishing to donate to the cause, as some have asked, there are a number of outlets.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/24/how-can-britons-help-the-people-of-ukraine (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/24/how-can-britons-help-the-people-of-ukraine)
I have already donated to the Red Cross emergency appeal and will be donating to a fundraiser to help Ukraine's media continue to operate tomorrow - that one is being done by Kyiv Independent who are managing to continue providing live updates on events to the world despite being bunkered in in Kyiv.
I feel so powerless and wish I could do more for Ukraine. This is what I can do, however small an impact it may have.
Thanks for that I've just donated on the British Red Cross website to the Ukrainian cause .
Much appreciated .
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I take the point that the first casualty in warfare is the truth but the Ukrainians are claiming to have killed so far over 4k Russian soldiers .
Whether that's accurate I obviously don't know but I wouldn't be surprised either given the bravery and resistance they are showing the world .
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Yep, me to, I was blocked trying to crowd fund a couple of stinger missiles
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I see Ukraine have set up a foreign legion for any people that want to travel there to help them defend. Liz Truss has said the uk govt supports this also.
I can see a few going for UK.
I probably would if my circumstances were different.
Interestingly, i wonder if the uk and other countries slip in a few proper soldiers under the guise of “foreign legion”
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Language matters.
People who truly want to virtue signal without explicitly criticising Putin for the ear criminal he is will use very carefully chosen language.
So Stop the War are talking about Russian "movement" in Ukraine. Like they've made a wrong turn on a day out.
Now Chelsea.
Wringing their hands and dabbing damp eyes over "the situation" in Ukraine.
https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/2022/02/27/club-statement-on-the-conflict-in-ukraine
Call it out for what it is. An illegal, unprovoked war of aggression by a tyrrant. If you can't do that, shut the f**k up and spare us your sanctimony.
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I've ran the full range of emotions today - really strange as I have no connection to the Ukraine.
I was in tears when saw a live report of all the people signing up and a work chain being formed to make Molotov cocktails..
I was angered when I saw the false reports from the Putin pack and the Russian media..
and I felt great pride in the united response of the European nations...... and the Russian public.
I'm also fast becoming a fan of President Volodymyr Zelensky...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-60539193
I felt an overwhelming sense of doom on Thursday and Friday - but today I feel like I'm sitting in my Ukrainian T-shirt and willing them on...
I've just given money to the cause, but can't help but feel that I wish I could do more for the people of my now second favourite country....... so very brave and resilient...
MM how do you donate money to the Ukrainian cause ?
I also want to donate .
Sorry - not looked in here for a while...
https://donate.redcross.org.uk/appeal/ukraine-crisis-appeal
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Language matters.
People who truly want to virtue signal without explicitly criticising Putin for the ear criminal he is will use very carefully chosen language.
So Stop the War are talking about Russian "movement" in Ukraine. Like they've made a wrong turn on a day out.
Now Chelsea.
Wringing their hands and dabbing damp eyes over "the situation" in Ukraine.
https://www.chelseafc.com/en/news/2022/02/27/club-statement-on-the-conflict-in-ukraine
Call it out for what it is. An illegal, unprovoked war of aggression by a tyrrant. If you can't do that, shut the f**k up and spare us your sanctimony.
Heh, just read the STW statement on the war in Ukraine.
The majority of it decries British foreign policy. Putin invades Ukraine and it's all our fault! Who knew?
It mentions Russia and Ukraine 3 times and Britain 4 times. And Putin 0 times.
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Putin says he's putting his nuclear deterance force on high alert.
I wonder if that's a response to Turkey?
It shows he's under pressure, let's just hope he's not completely unhinged.
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From Beeb....
Putin puts Russia's strategic nuclear force on 'special alert'
Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered the Russian military to put its nuclear forces on "special alert" - the highest level of alert for Russia's Strategic Missile Forces.
Speaking to top military officials, including Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu, he said Western nations had taken "unfriendly actions" towards Russia and imposed "illegitimate sanctions".
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.. Just read a report in the Guardian that the Ukrainians claim to have retaken Kharkiv and demoralised Russian soldiers are laying down their weapons.
I wonder if this might be partly behind the nuclear threats?
A dangerous moment.
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This is genuinely f**king terrifying now isn’t it.
He needs taking out.
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And this.
Zelenskiy: Ukrainian and Russian delegations to meet without preconditions
Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskiy said the Ukrainian and Russian delegations will meet without preconditions.
...have they actually done it?
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From Beeb....
Putin puts Russia's strategic nuclear force on 'special alert'
Russian President Vladimir Putin has ordered the Russian military to put its nuclear forces on "special alert" - the highest level of alert for Russia's Strategic Missile Forces.
Speaking to top military officials, including Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu, he said Western nations had taken "unfriendly actions" towards Russia and imposed "illegitimate sanctions".
My first thought having read that was that Putin isn't winning this conflict which isn't to say the Ukrainians are either .
His troops are clearly bogged down with progress slow if there's any progress at all .
Now the veiled threats from a man clearly in a jam of his own making .
Dangerous time , no doubt .
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And this.
Zelenskiy: Ukrainian and Russian delegations to meet without preconditions
Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelenskiy said the Ukrainian and Russian delegations will meet without preconditions.
...have they actually done it?
Ukraine's foreign minister: Ukraine-Russia talks with no preconditions 'already a victory'
Ukraine’s foreign minister Dmytro Kuleba said “we will not give up a single inch of our territory” ahead of talks agreed between the Ukrainian and Russian delegations.
Russia initially said it did not want talks, then said it wanted talks with conditions. Now, after a series of military setbacks that some observers say may have shocked Russian president Vladimir Putin, the conditions have been dropped – which Kuleba said was “already a victory”.
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Somewhere in the Barents Sea we will have a Submarine with our Nuclear Deterrent primed and ready to go to Moscow, I’m Sure America and France have also prepared
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Those two Russian Generals at Putins news conference don’t look happy, I wonder if they are contemplating putting a bullet through his head
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If this does come to some kind of peaceful end with Putin feeling resentful, thwarted and blocked, that guy is gonna have one enormous chip on his shoulder. And he doesn't forget.The best outcome then would be some kind of forced removal from power . Without that sooner or later wecwill have a re run with a guy who will have worked hard to find his way around the problems he's encountered this time.
BobG
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Those two Russian Generals at Putins news conference don’t look happy, I wonder if they are contemplating putting a bullet through his head
You'd hope so or even arresting Putin and putting him on trial for crimes against humanity .
Problem with these dictatorships is that nobody can trust anyone and you are in lone gunman territory if you are to take him out .
Even those wanting rid of Putin would arrest his assassin and put as much distance between themselves and his assassin .
Self preservation unfortunately is pretty high currency .
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Who'd be in President Zelensky's shoes right now ?
If these peace talks do go ahead he risks massive loss of life with his fellow Ukrainians .
Or
He more or less signs his country over to Putin's control .
My gut feeling is he won't so much as hand over one inch of Ukrainian soil to Putin willingly .
Too many lives lost already to do that but none the less what a position this man is in .
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I saw a video of Putin yesterday at his desk. He reached his right hand to pick up some papers and missed them. He then looked down at his hand before reaching across and picking up the papers at the second time of asking.
I've heard rumours that he is suffering early stage Parkinson's. That would fit with that micro scene yesterday. I wonder if he is feeling his mortality.
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Let's hope not, BST. The last thing the world needs is that lunatic feeling like he's got nothing to lose.
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The best thing the UK could do right now is removing visa restrictions on people fleeing war zones.
The UK Nationality Bill gives the right to remove asylum claims from war refugees for a range of spurious criteria, none of which are relevant to the need to evacuate for personal safety.
Any politician who opposes offering support to refugees in these circumstances is a moral leper of the worst kind.
We managed to find visa approvals for Russian oligarchs in their droves when we were looking to enable money laundering on an industrial scale.
Let your MP know that this is the least we can do!
100%.
And suggestions like this, from an obscure Tory MP that refugees should apply for fruit-picking jobs to get a visa are...beyond words.
https://mobile.twitter.com/deletedbyMPs/status/1497697221252366337
I cannot emphasise enough that absolutely noone should be trying to make cheap political points out if this catastrophe. But equally, the Govt and ruling party must be held to account if we are going to show our true soul in dealing with the humanitarian disaster.
One example, but this is disgusting.
A 69 year old widow escaped from Kharkov to Hungary. She got a flight to Paris and intended to come to the UK to join her daughter who is a university lecturer.
She was denied entry by the UK Border Force.
Just...what the f**k have we become in this country?
PS. This 69 year old widow is now stuck in France. She doesn't speak a word of French and has no friends or family there.
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Those two Russian Generals at Putins news conference don’t look happy, I wonder if they are contemplating putting a bullet through his head
Could have been as reports coming in that he now has one General less.One of the two, his Chief of Staff, supposed to have just resigned:
https://twitter.com/Billbrowder/status/1498000670896631815
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Ireland doing the right thing:
https://twitter.com/HMcEntee/status/1497158118509187076
Where are we?
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Christ you have to wonder if the Russian army has the stomach for this.
https://mobile.twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/1497946816087789569
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Those two Russian Generals at Putins news conference don’t look happy, I wonder if they are contemplating putting a bullet through his head
Could have been as reports coming in that he now has one General less.One of the two, his Chief of Staff, supposed to have just resigned:
https://twitter.com/Billbrowder/status/1498000670896631815
Tweet been deleted, but if true he’s probably dead now, or on his way to Siberia to break rocks up for the rest of his life
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Christ you have to wonder if the Russian army has the stomach for this.
https://mobile.twitter.com/shaunwalker7/status/1497946816087789569
Is that what's left of the Chechen terror squad?
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I am incandescent with rage at the moment - so very emotional, frustrated and struggling to absorb all of this. I did time in Pristina back in my forces day and swore I wouldn't put myself into this mindset or situation again in my lifetime. If I had the chance or opportunity I would gladly slot Putin without thinking about it..... really dark times.
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EU now suspends visa requirements:
https://twitter.com/BBCkatyaadler/status/1498017173792514051?cxt=HHwWhoCz9dirg8opAAAA
Only UK now out of line.....embarrassing now from Patel and Johnson.
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The Daily Telegraph has satellite photos of a 3mile long column of vehicles and troops moving towards Kyiv.
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He may have some of his assist frozen.The trustees of Chelsea's charitable foundation have not yet agreed to take control of the club, BBC Sport has learned.
On Saturday, Chelsea's Russian owner Roman Abramovich announced he was handing them "the stewardship and care" of the club.
The billionaire, who would remain the club's owner, made the move amid Russia's invasion of Ukraine.
Members of the charitable foundation met on Sunday to discuss the situation.
But some have concerns over whether Charity Commission rules would allow them to run the club, and the foundation's lawyers are now exploring what can be done.
There are also understood to be some members of the foundation concerned about their legal liability if they agree to take on responsibility for running the club.
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No change on visa requirements from Bozo and Co:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-stops-short-welcoming-26342581
Lost for words!
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The charitable fund taking over the stewardship of chelski is not nailed on. They may not want it.
In other news , there are vids emerging of captured Russian soldiers who state they were lied to and it was an exercise in Russia only. With threats of being shot if they refused to soldier when the order to invade came.
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People who are settled in the UK will be able to bring their Ukrainian immediate family members to join them, the prime minister has announced.
Boris Johnson said the UK would not "turn our backs in Ukraine's hour of need".
Speaking to a Ukrainian cathedral congregation, he said he had never seen "so clear a distinction between good and evil" as the conflict in Ukraine.
He later announced a further £40m of humanitarian aid for the country. from the bbc
What i don't understand is why we cannot let anybody who want to come from Ukraine to the UK just come, as all the men have to stay and fight.
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It's:
1) We want you to do the job of fighting Putin's army.
But
2) Don't ask us to look after your wife and kids while you do.
There are not many times I'm disgusted to be British, but this is turning into one.
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The EU are now financing and delivering weapons to Ukraine which is totally unprecedented .
Fair play to the EU .
Clearly Putin's miscalculated and whilst he saw division within the West and the EU what he's actually created is solidarity and unity with his invasion of the Ukraine to at least a level not seen before .
What this leads to possibly hangs by a thread .
Nothing is off the table right now including life as we know it on this planet .
My personal thoughts are this , if I die then I die but my step daughter and our grandkids ...... Well that's another matter .
Proper scary times to say the least .
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''Daryna is 31 and has just spent three days making the 800km (497 miles) journey from Kyiv. Her husband Oleg drove her to the Hungary border-crossing. Then he set off, all the way back to Kyiv, to fight for his country.
Now she’s waiting in a Red Cross tent in Hungary. She waited 10 hours to cross this border, on foot. She’s exhausted, and tries hard not to cry as we speak.
"There is no life in Kyiv, there is just a lot of Russian occupiers, they come with tanks and rockets, everything is on fire. It is terrible now," Daryna says''
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I am becoming increasingly fearful. Other than an outcome which allows Putin to claim 'victory' I can't see any other way out for him.
If Putin suddenly got sensible, what were all the Russian deaths for? If he climbs down a bit, what was the point? Putin's own survival increasingly looks to be on the line. And he has the parallel of Kruschev to look back on too...
I reckon one of the major tasks for the West, if Putin is indeed in this bind, is to find a way to either get him out forcefully, or, a way to allow him to come out claiming glory, at least in his homeland. Any other outcome, what's he got to lose?
BobG
PS. Anyone know what the symptoms of megalomania are?
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This doesn't make good reading...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60551140
BobG
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This doesn't make good reading...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60551140
BobG
True it doesn't Bob but the author got a lot wrong, so is he the right person to listen to?
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Specific facts can be right or wrong. It's the mood that worries me...
Bob
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I am hoping that putin hasn't committed all available troops yet as he's wary of an uprising at home.
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Christ he's got over a million just in the army. He's nowhere near short of troops right now And if he was, he can lean on various client states to plug some gaps.
BobG
O
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Not going to pretend I understand it all, but I read the Russian economy was going to collapse today.
Maybe things will start turning ugly back home for him soon.
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He has put himself in the same ball park as Ratko Miladic and Radavan Karadicz in my eyes. And I’m sure he will, in time, be treated the same. He is a war criminal and there needs to be an international arrest warrant out with his name on it.
That may force the hand of one or two of his closest aides to sit up and take note. Because they would all be implicated in his actions.
My increasing concern is his utter paranoia that the west has it in for him and Russia will cause him to lose the plot even more than he has already. He has been quoted as saying that a World without Russia would not be worth living in. He is obsessed with re taking Ukraine as Russian, and if he does not get his way, I fear he will adopt a “ well if I can’t have it , no one can appproach”
And then he starts becoming very very irrational.
There are numerous reports on the matter of nuclear strikes. One I’ve saw last night, which was particularly alarming is the possibility of a nuke being detonated over the North Sea , between uk and Denmark. The stuff of sleepless nights.
There is also a very fine line between interfering with Russians business and not. He has made it quite clear that no one should get involved in Ukraine, yet us and now the Eu countries and flooding the place with weapons. If that isn’t interfering , then I don’t know what is. Zelensky has opened his doors to any freedom fighters that want to help. This would be interfering too, because we would be fighting the Russians ourselves, in all but name . The economic sanctions is interfering. The no fly zone, the sporting pull outs, it all interfering.
I agree with all of it of course, but this is a very very dangerous game.
If Putin loses it and cracks, anything could happen.
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"Peace talks" are supposedly taking place today, yet Russia continues to advance on Kyiv...
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"Peace talks" are supposedly taking place today, yet Russia continues to advance on Kyiv...
It's just so they can say they tried coming to a compromise. They're going to demand things Ukraine aren't willing to give.
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I see Ukraine have set up a foreign legion for any people that want to travel there to help them defend. Liz Truss has said the uk govt supports this also.
I can see a few going for UK.
I probably would if my circumstances were different.
Interestingly, i wonder if the uk and other countries slip in a few proper soldiers under the guise of “foreign legion”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Galician)
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Zelensky has demanded immediate EU membership.
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Interest rates in Russia have been pushed up to 20%. Due to a collapse of the ruble.
How do I open a saving date count there? Lol.
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I agree with Bob, I think Putin needs a way out of this and a way to save face.
I think the west should agree to let Russia remain in Crimea and Ukraine commit to not joining NATO. Appeasement? Not really the Russians have sustained significant casualties. I don't think Putin would embark on anything like this again. Basically offer him the status quo, let him go back to how things were.
He's an old man now, there is the possibility things might change in Russia after his death. Particularly if Ukraine is an example to the Russians of a succesful nation within the EU.
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Zelensky has demanded immediate EU membership.
He can have ours. Shower of shit organisation. They stirred up the whole show over there by backing the over throw of the legitimate government.
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Energy and gold up, stock markets down a bit.
Not yet as dramatic as I thought it might be.
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Zelensky has demanded immediate EU membership.
He can have ours. Shower of shit organisation. They stirred up the whole show over there by backing the over throw of the legitimate government.
I'm no big fan of the EU. But this is the exact scenario where EU or not it doesn't matter, sensible countries work together regardless. I don't think the UK role has been at all diminished by not being in the EU because there's no desire not to be involved on foreign policy and never was.
As for overthrow of a government, more b*llocks.
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Energy and gold up, stock markets down a bit.
Not yet as dramatic as I thought it might be.
Unless you've got shares in polymetal (ouch). Far too volatile an area for me.
A lot of losses in areas are baked in, trade with Russia isn't overly important for most western companies overall.
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Energy and gold up, stock markets down a bit.
Not yet as dramatic as I thought it might be.
Unless you've got shares in polymetal (ouch). Far too volatile an area for me.
A lot of losses in areas are baked in, trade with Russia isn't overly important for most western companies overall.
I notice the armaments companies are up. Buy on the sound of guns and all that.
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I agree with Bob, I think Putin needs a way out of this and a way to save face.
I think the west should agree to let Russia remain in Crimea and Ukraine commit to not joining NATO. Appeasement? Not really the Russians have sustained significant casualties. I don't think Putin would embark on anything like this again. Basically offer him the status quo, let him go back to how things were.
He's an old man now, there is the possibility things might change in Russia after his death. Particularly if Ukraine is an example to the Russians of a succesful nation within the EU.
And if a bunch of countries decided that Russia could have England?
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I agree with Bob, I think Putin needs a way out of this and a way to save face.
I think the west should agree to let Russia remain in Crimea and Ukraine commit to not joining NATO. Appeasement? Not really the Russians have sustained significant casualties. I don't think Putin would embark on anything like this again. Basically offer him the status quo, let him go back to how things were.
He's an old man now, there is the possibility things might change in Russia after his death. Particularly if Ukraine is an example to the Russians of a succesful nation within the EU.
And if a bunch of countries decided that Russia could have England?
Shite as it would be, if it's that or say nuclear war..... Bigger picture and all that.
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The big picture is everyone sticking together to defeat a dictator
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5 days into an invasion and the crack are appearing
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It's a good job the Americans didn't think like that some time ago
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I agree with Bob, I think Putin needs a way out of this and a way to save face.
I think the west should agree to let Russia remain in Crimea and Ukraine commit to not joining NATO. Appeasement? Not really the Russians have sustained significant casualties. I don't think Putin would embark on anything like this again. Basically offer him the status quo, let him go back to how things were.
He's an old man now, there is the possibility things might change in Russia after his death. Particularly if Ukraine is an example to the Russians of a succesful nation within the EU.
I would agree that recognition of Crimea as part of Russia would be an acceptable concession to make. Also, the announcements of referendums for the two breakaway regions overseen by international, independent observers.
However, Russia should have no say in what Ukraine chooses to do regarding EU/NATO. A potential concession could be on the condition that Ukraine does join NATO, no foreign troops or missiles will be allowed into Ukraine unless they are attacked. It defeats Russia's argument that NATO is a threat and reinforces it's position as a defensive alliance.
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I agree with Bob, I think Putin needs a way out of this and a way to save face.
I think the west should agree to let Russia remain in Crimea and Ukraine commit to not joining NATO. Appeasement? Not really the Russians have sustained significant casualties. I don't think Putin would embark on anything like this again. Basically offer him the status quo, let him go back to how things were.
He's an old man now, there is the possibility things might change in Russia after his death. Particularly if Ukraine is an example to the Russians of a succesful nation within the EU.
And if a bunch of countries decided that Russia could have England?
Well that's a very big if isn't it.
The Russians took Crimea quite a long time ago now and it wasn't something that the people in Crimea particularly protested about. It wasn't right I know.
But if we want to give this a chance to deescalte Putin needs a way out. If they just say to him, no get out and by the way get out of Crimea too, I very much doubt he'd be able to accept that, this war would be a total failure so the war would have to continue until he felt he'd won something.
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Still only 5 days in RD, do you want to deliver the bad news to the fighters on the front line?
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The big picture is everyone sticking together to defeat a dictator
Say's the man on a n island 12,000 miles away.
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The big picture is everyone sticking together to defeat a dictator
Say's the man on a n island 12,000 miles away.
Says the local fascist, I'm hoping this means a really fast change over to electric cars.
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The big picture is everyone sticking together to defeat a dictator
Say's the man on a n island 12,000 miles away.
My wife had looked after her mother, now departed, for the last 20 years or more. She has a sister who has lived in Scotland since the '80s, who rang up regularly to offer advice on how to look after her properly.
Now, in my experience, there are two types of potential reactions to that scenario. There are people who, like my wife, would bite their lip and let off steam AFTER she put the phone down, or there are people who, like me, would simply tell her to f**k off and refuse to talk to her again.
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Are you saying you're with those throwing up the white flag little Britisher?
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The big picture is everyone sticking together to defeat a dictator
Aye, we all died, all our kids, grandkids died. But hey we stuck two fingers up at Putin.
Thank god that time is not here now and not at all likely to be but to get out of this mess we will in all likelihood have to give Putin something.
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The big picture is everyone sticking together to defeat a dictator
Say's the man on a n island 12,000 miles away.
Says the local fascist, I'm hoping this means a really fast change over to electric cars.
Where's the electricity going to come from?
Where you're living you should be more concerned about China than Russia.
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The big picture is everyone sticking together to defeat a dictator
Aye, we all died, all our kids, grandkids died. But hey we stuck two fingers up at Putin.
Thank god that time is not here now and not at all likely to be but to get out of this mess we will in all likelihood have to give Putin something.
And when you've given the Ukraine away and putin says, 'I've got nuclear weapons' again, which everyone knew anyway and he says 'I'll have Estonia this time' you say what exactly?
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There is a fairly plausible theory about Putin and his state of mind.
That is he is using anabolic steroids to keep his muscle tone and physique going into his old age.
That would account for his slightly puffy looking face. It would give him moods swings and become more prone to anger.
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Still only 5 days in RD, do you want to deliver the bad news to the fighters on the front line?
I doubt the majority of Ukrainians would see a ceasefire as bad news. Far from it.
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Still only 5 days in RD, do you want to deliver the bad news to the fighters on the front line?
I doubt the majority of Ukrainians would see a ceasefire as bad news. Far from it.
I'm not talking about the ceasefire RD I'm talking about support for them crumbling away already.
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If anything Syd I only see support for the Ukrainians growing, particularly in the EU.
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If anything Syd I only see support for the Ukrainians growing, particularly in the EU.
Exactly which is why I'm a bit confused as to why there should be talk on here about giving anything away so early, lessons should have been learned from brexit and poker, you don't give up the game as soon as it gets serious, you don't telegraph your moves, resign from the game and then make demands.
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If anything Syd I only see support for the Ukrainians growing, particularly in the EU.
Exactly which is why I'm a bit confused as to why there should be talk on here about giving anything away so early, lessons should have been learned from brexit and poker, you don't give up the game as soon as it gets serious, you don't telegraph your moves, resign from the game and then make demands.
It's not a case of giving up. It's finding a way to stop the killing and prevent this from escalating.
We are dealing with an aging unstable man who happens to be in charge of the world's second most destructive arsenal.
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It appears Roman is trying to help out with the peace talks
https://www.jpost.com/international/article-698891
A former supporter and close friend of Putin. Interesting.
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There is a fairly plausible theory about Putin and his state of mind.
That is he is using anabolic steroids to keep his muscle tone and physique going into his old age.
That would account for his slightly puffy looking face. It would give him moods swings and become more prone to anger.
I used to work with someone who took steroids one minute he was fine then he would flip,get paranoid and want to fight anybody
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If anything Syd I only see support for the Ukrainians growing, particularly in the EU.
Exactly which is why I'm a bit confused as to why there should be talk on here about giving anything away so early, lessons should have been learned from brexit and poker, you don't give up the game as soon as it gets serious, you don't telegraph your moves, resign from the game and then make demands.
It's not a case of giving up. It's finding a way to stop the killing and prevent this from escalating.
We are dealing with an aging unstable man who happens to be in charge of the world's second most destructive arsenal.
There's nothing there I don't understand RD, except that 'concessions' that you talked about earlier cannot be gained at the table unless resolve is shown. Do you think there would even be talks if the Ukraine had not put up such a fight and the world had not joined together in such an unprecedented way?
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I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.
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Russia bans flights from airlines in 36 countries
A quick news update for you now as Russia has announced it is banning flights from airlines in 36 countries, including the UK, Germany, Spain, Italy and Canada.
It follows a decision by the EU to ban "Russian-owned, Russian-registered or Russian-controlled aircraft" from its airspace.
The UK also banned Aeroflot flights from landing in Britain, prompting Russia to announce an earlier retaliatory ban on British airlines.
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I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.
If the Ukraine itself agrees to ceding sovereignty over the Crimea but joins NATO and possibly the EU, do you see putin agreeing to that?
And of course a complete withdrawal.
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I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.
If the Ukraine itself agrees to ceding sovereignty over the Crimea but joins NATO and possibly the EU, do you see putin agreeing to that?
And of course a complete withdrawal.
He'll have to. The alternative is a long drawn out war which Russia can't win, with it making them a lot poorer on the side.
Gaining the Crimea and the breakaway regions are the best he can hope for.
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But you've already suggested he's a nutter on drugs?
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I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.
They aren’t RD. SR is bored with his own company and is desperate to keep people arguing with him.
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I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.
They aren’t RD. SR is bored with his own company and is desperate to keep people arguing with him.
This is a fairly serious conversation I would have thought even for you hound, either join it a f**k off
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I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.
They aren’t RD. SR is bored with his own company and is desperate to keep people arguing with him.
This is a fairly serious conversation I would have thought even for you hound, either join it a f**k off
Are you a self appointed moderator now.
Abuse on this forum should be more strictly controlled.
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I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.
They aren’t RD. SR is bored with his own company and is desperate to keep people arguing with him.
This is a fairly serious conversation I would have thought even for you hound, either join it a f**k off
Are you a self appointed moderator now.
Abuse on this forum should be more strictly controlled.
No one has controlled your years of trolling, grow up
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I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.
They aren’t RD. SR is bored with his own company and is desperate to keep people arguing with him.
This is a fairly serious conversation I would have thought even for you hound, either join it a f**k off
Are you a self appointed moderator now.
Abuse on this forum should be more strictly controlled.
No one has controlled your years of trolling, grow up
Says the biggest troll on the forum. Is your self importance to the future of Europe keeping you up tonight.
Just asking as I’m concerned about your welfare.
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I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.
If the Ukraine itself agrees to ceding sovereignty over the Crimea but joins NATO and possibly the EU, do you see putin agreeing to that?
And of course a complete withdrawal.
He'll have to. The alternative is a long drawn out war which Russia can't win, with it making them a lot poorer on the side.
Gaining the Crimea and the breakaway regions are the best he can hope for.
This is the thing drfc your cannot expect a reasonable response from someone that doesn't see reason, you and I and most on the forum can see that but if putin was reasonable this wouldn't be happening.
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I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.
If the Ukraine itself agrees to ceding sovereignty over the Crimea but joins NATO and possibly the EU, do you see putin agreeing to that?
And of course a complete withdrawal.
He won't accept Ukraine joining NATO. I think that's the absolute redline for Putin.
Ukraine isn't a member of NATO. A commitment to remain out of it isn't really a concession, it's keeping things as they are.
Once the war is stopped the Ukraine can stock up with weapons as a deterant.
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Perhaps we should allow Russia into NATO.
Then No one is at risk.
Far fetched? maybe.
Possible? Anything is possible
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I don't really see going back to the status quo of a week ago as concessions.
If the Ukraine itself agrees to ceding sovereignty over the Crimea but joins NATO and possibly the EU, do you see putin agreeing to that?
And of course a complete withdrawal.
He won't accept Ukraine joining NATO. I think that's the absolute redline for Putin.
Ukraine isn't a member of NATO. A commitment to remain out of it isn't really a concession, it's keeping things as they are.
Once the war is stopped the Ukraine can stock up with weapons as a deterant.
That's what they have been doing since the Crimea, stocking up and training, putin has been sitting in their backyard watching all this and still he went ahead and invaded.
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Perhaps we should allow Russia into NATO.
Then No one is at risk.
Far fetched? maybe.
Possible? Anything is possible
I mentioned this a few days ago...... don't know if the Russians would go for it though...
I read an interesting article recently that suggested that NATO should have invited both Russia and Ukraine to join NATO - with the proviso that Ukraine could only accept if Russia did. After all, we hear that Putin's main concern is Ukrainian NATO membership, leading to NATO troops being stationed in the Ukraine and providing a closer launching pad for a NATO war against Russia. If Russia were a NATO member, NATO's Article 5 would compel, for example, the UK to defend Russia against any attack, including that of a fellow NATO member, including the U.S. Therefore Russia's NATO membership would provide the formal security guarantee that it wants and seeks.
Bringing Russia in from the cold might be the barking mad, but it could have been the solution. And what if Russia declines I hear you say.... well that would show that Putin's real focus is on conquering countries with any actual or alleged historical connection to Russia, and might show that NATO allies need to be prepared for further wars in the Baltics..... or any other NATO countries in Putin's eye sights..
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''Russia’s foreign minister Sergei Lavrov has cancelled his visit to the United Nations in Geneva due to “anti-Russian sanctions” imposed by EU countries, Russia’s mission in Geneva has said.
Lavrov had been scheduled to address the UN Human Rights Council and the Conference on Disarmament in person on Tuesday''
oops
''But he has been forced to cancel his trip “due to an unprecedented ban on his flight in the airspace of a number of EU countries that have imposed anti-Russian sanctions,” the mission tweeted.
RIA news agency quoted a diplomatic source as saying the decision was because Lavrov’s plane would not be able to pass through airspace that the EU has closed to Russian airlines as part of sanctions against Moscow''
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I think for Putin it was a case of now or never.
But he's discovering the conquering Ukraine is nowhere near as easy as he thought it would be. And the prospect of holding it, that's impossible, he's united the society against him.
It would take a vast Russian force to control it now. They can't afford to do it.
I'm hoping he is sane enough to recognise that now and might take the opportunity now to backdown.
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I think for Putin it was a case of now or never.
But he's discovering the conquering Ukraine is nowhere near as easy as he thought it would be. And the prospect of holding it, that's impossible, he's united the society against him.
It would take a vast Russian force to control it now. They can't afford to do it.
I'm hoping he is sane enough to recognise that now and might take the opportunity now to backdown.
Not sure about the last bit but hope you're right, from what I've read and watched the locals have been getting a bit uppity about why they can only earn round 300 euros a month at best and putin needed a shed load of nationalism to boost his stocks
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I think for Putin it was a case of now or never.
But he's discovering the conquering Ukraine is nowhere near as easy as he thought it would be. And the prospect of holding it, that's impossible, he's united the society against him.
It would take a vast Russian force to control it now. They can't afford to do it.
I'm hoping he is sane enough to recognise that now and might take the opportunity now to backdown.
Not sure about the last bit but hope you're right, from what I've read and watched the locals have been getting a bit uppity about why they can only earn round 300 euros a month at best and putin needed a shed load of nationalism to boost his stocks
I'm only trying to guess what they are talking about but NATO seems to be a core issue.
TBH the Ukrainians aren't expecting any realistic offers and expect nothing from it but they have to listen.
If Putin is to back down then he needs a way to save face. My suggestions would likely be an absolute bare minimum.
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Also there is a brain drain going on in Russia as completed students as said above can't get a decent wage and when they make noises they get arrested and leave. This is having a serious effect on the economy.
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the BBC is running some interesting Q & A's while the talks are going on.
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So much for targetting military targets, Russia is now shelling built up civilian areas, it had to come I suppose just adds to the list of war crimes
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So much for targetting military targets, Russia is now shelling built up civilian areas, it had to come I suppose just adds to the list of war crimes
Classic terror tactics.
Hitler found civilian populations are prepared to endure an awful lot. It might even have a galvanising effect.
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Another big move
''''After some soul-searching, neutral Switzerland will adopt all EU sanctions against Russia.
There will be no exceptions: five oligarchs have already been banned from entering Switzerland, the bank accounts of all 336 people on the EU’s list, including Vladimir Putin and Sergei Lavrov, will be frozen with immediate effect.
Swiss banks are believed to hold billions of dollars in Russian funds.
The country's air space is closed to Russian aircraft, while Swiss airlines have cancelled their flights to Russia.
Make no mistake, this is a huge step for Switzerland, which has often agonised over what being neutral actually means.
Today Swiss President Ignazio Cassis made it clear: the attack on Ukraine was an unacceptable attack on freedom and democracy, "playing into the hands of aggression is not neutral", neither is standing by while the Geneva Conventions, which Switzerland is home to, are "trampled underfoot"''
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The Swiss getting involved and freezing bank accounts is huge.I wonder if the delay allowed putins cronies enough time to withdraw their wealth.
Meanwhile the IOC is promoting the banning of all Russian and Belarusian atheletes from all competitions across the globe.
Just need FIFA to wake up and smell the very strong coffee.
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Terrific that Switzerland has played this card.
The pressure on Russia is mounting.
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Somehow I doubt many of the super rich would have ever expected Switzerland to make a shift in its nuetralty.
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Putin's now in a situation he can't possibly win. He's guaranteed restrictions on his own people for a long long time, where they'll eventually start turning on him. He might take Ukraine but they won't keep it, the population clearly don't want a Russian or Russian puppet as leader. Finland's population are now wanting to join NATO. He's unified Europe. He's pissed off Erdogan and Orban.
The initial point is the big one, no one will go into Russia to end this but the people there can be what over throws him and ends this. The same needs to happen in Belarus to.
If Ukraine come out this on the other side without specific terms that they can't join NATO then they'll want to join immediately. This is what happens when they're no in it, Russia aren't going to consider action against NATO. They've already shown they have poor equipment and poorly trained troops.
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"Bank of China’s Singapore operation has stopped financing deals involving Russian oil and Russian companies"
https://www.reuters.com/article/ukraine-crisis-swift-commodities-idCNL4N2V30WC
https://www.reuters.com/world/asia-pacific/singapore-impose-appropriate-sanctions-restrictions-russia-2022-02-28/
Isn’t that pretty much Xi telling Putin he's messed up?
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Perhaps we should allow Russia into NATO.
Then No one is at risk.
Far fetched? maybe.
Possible? Anything is possible
There's the nub of the problem.
The Russian people would be far better off if Russia was a liberal democracy, integrated into the systems of European democracy and security. The EU. NATO.
They would be richer, at peace and more secure.
That's exactly why the old Soviet bloc countries have joined both.
But Russian leaders have never wanted that. The want Russia to be a proud Great Power running its own sphere of influence.
THAT is what this is all about. Putin wants Ukraine to be part of a Russian empire, not part of the West. That empire can be run and bled dry by the gangster bosses. If the people are terrorised and kept ignorant and in poverty, so be it.
Anyone who has lazily complained about the EU being anti democratic needs to wake up now and see the bigger picture. This is what real tyrranical anti democracy looks like.
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Mad Vlad has put his Nukes on an enhanced state of alert, surely he must realise than Moscow will be obliterated if he decides to use his nukes
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Fifa grow a pair and suspend Russia meaning they will not be allowed to play in their World Cup play off match and be thrown out of the competition
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Mad Vlad has put his Nukes on an enhanced state of alert, surely he must realise than Moscow will be obliterated if he decides to use his nukes
He made a very concerning statement a while back, something like - what's the point of the world without Russia in it?
The worry is, is his vision the only Russia he considers to be a true.
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Perhaps we should allow Russia into NATO.
Then No one is at risk.
Far fetched? maybe.
Possible? Anything is possible
There's the nub of the problem.
The Russian people would be far better off if Russia was a liberal democracy, integrated into the systems of European democracy and security. The EU. NATO.
They would be richer, at peace and more secure.
That's exactly why the old Soviet bloc countries have joined both.
But Russian leaders have never wanted that. The want Russia to be a proud Great Power running its own sphere of influence.
THAT is what this is all about. Putin wants Ukraine to be part of a Russian empire, not part of the West. That empire can be run and bled dry by the gangster bosses. If the people are terrorised and kept ignorant and in poverty, so be it.
Anyone who has lazily complained about the EU being anti democratic needs to wake up now and see the bigger picture. This is what real tyrranical anti democracy looks like.
Absolutely right BST
The political reforms that Russia would have to make to meet NATO criteria for membership would absolutely never be acceptable to Putin
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The Russians have used cluster bombs banned under international treaty
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Interesting that the kleptocrats have started coming out calling for peace.
Deripaska, Lebedev, Friedman, all saying this has to stop.
Is it virtue signalling, or are they going (or are they even able) to put pressure on Putin.
I'll be honest, I still don't really know if Putin controls the kleptocrats, or they control him.
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The oligarchs are hedging their positions.
Putin has taken this action without consideration of their position, so in turn they have lost faith in the relationship.
In the long game, this could be the most significant lasting effect of the campaign.
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Based on the conversation Macron has had with mad vlad today I’d do this.
Tell him NATO and EU guarantee Ukraine’s neutrality. Stop the war as a result.
Wait till he croaks it and then move the goalposts.
Bide time, save lives.
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Patel doubles down on the humanitarian refusal;
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-fury-priti-patel-refuses-26349822
The woman is beyond shame, and prepared to disgrace the UK in front of the international community.
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Based on the conversation Macron has had with mad glad today I’d do this.
Tell him NATO and EU guarantee Ukraine’s neutrality. Stop the war as a result.
Wait till he croaks it and then move the goalposts.
Bide time, save lives.
I like that NR. Best outcome I've seen so far. Wherecwould Crimea and the East fit in?
BobG
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Based on the conversation Macron has had with mad vlad today I’d do this.
Tell him NATO and EU guarantee Ukraine’s neutrality. Stop the war as a result.
Wait till he croaks it and then move the goalposts.
Bide time, save lives.
Except they can't without regime change in ukraine. They aren't and never will be neutral.
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Uh oh,
Erdogan says Turkey will limit Russian access to the Black Sea. How do they propose to do that???
And let's not forget Turkey is a NATO member. Erdogan apparently isn't happy with the western response. Not robust enough for his liking...
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Uh oh,
Erdogan says Turkey will limit Russian access to the Black Sea. How do they propose to do that???
And let's not forget Turkey is a NATO member. Erdogan apparently isn't happy with the western response. Not robust enough for his liking...
Turkey own the straits around its country which Russia use to access the Black Sea. They have legal rights to close the straits during times of war, it wouldn't stop Russian ships returning to Russia via the straits, but would stop Russia send further ships through to Ukraine
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Uh oh,
Erdogan says Turkey will limit Russian access to the Black Sea. How do they propose to do that???
And let's not forget Turkey is a NATO member. Erdogan apparently isn't happy with the western response. Not robust enough for his liking...
Turkey own the straits around its country which Russia use to access the Black Sea. They have legal rights to close the straits during times of war, it wouldn't stop Russian ships returning to Russia via the straits, but would stop Russia send further ships through to Ukraine
Right. And Russia says we're coming through anyway... What does Turkey do then?
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They may be able to prevent ships entering the med under the 1936 convention, but it won’t be allowed to stop ships returning to base in the Black Sea.
Turkey relies very heavily on Russian Imports so will have to play this card very very carefully. Especially as they are NATO members.
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Finland, Russia's neighbour are going to break their policy of not sending weapons to war zones and supply rifles, ammo and antitank launchers to Ukraine.
The danger of this war escalating grows with each hour.
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Ukraine are offering Russian soldiers full amnesty and CASH to surrender.
Never heard of anything likes this before.
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Ukraine elected a comedian. And got a leader. We elected a leader. And got a comedian.
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Ukraine elected a comedian. And got a leader. We elected a leader. And got a comedian.
Ours isn't very funny though.
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Some of us wanted Abbott and Corbyn - We'd have been better with Abbott and Costello.
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Erdogan has a lot of previous with Putin. He's been badly bullied more than once. I suspect revenge might be a motive here. Bloody dangerous if so.
BobG
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Just got back from a pro-Ukraine rally in Sheffield. Amazing turn out given that it was freezing and lashing down. Some humbling stories from speakers trying to contact family back home. And one inspiring Ukraining bloke speaking with barely suppressed anger, imploring people to write to MPs demanding that immigration restrictions be dropped to allow people in.
It's up to us if we care enough. Or we could just accept Patel saying "No". On behalf of a country that gave her parents succour when they needed it.
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Some of us wanted Abbott and Corbyn - We'd have been better with Abbott and Costello.
Well done. You've surpassed yourself again.
Nothing to offer on the biggest crisis in Europe in 75 years. Just more political point scoring. You must be very proud of yourself.
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How many of us would be as brave as this?
https://mobile.twitter.com/GirkinGirkin/status/1498361635605561348
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Some of us wanted Abbott and Corbyn - We'd have been better with Abbott and Costello.
Well done. You've surpassed yourself again.
Nothing to offer on the biggest crisis in Europe in 75 years. Just more political point scoring. You must be very proud of yourself.
Have you read BobG's post, you clown?
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Erdogan has a lot of previous with Putin. He's been badly bullied more than once. I suspect revenge might be a motive here. Bloody dangerous if so.
BobG
I’m sure Turkey shot down a Russian war plane a few years ago
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The international criminal court are opening an investigation citing they believe a threshold has been passed for them to consider war crimes.
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Putin will be the next saddam. Found hunkered down in an Eastern Siberian village cellar somewhere in years to come.
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How many of us would be as brave as this?
https://mobile.twitter.com/GirkinGirkin/status/1498361635605561348
Probably most of us given it was un crewed and being towed by a tractor
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Interesting that the kleptocrats have started coming out calling for peace.
Deripaska, Lebedev, Friedman, all saying this has to stop.
Is it virtue signalling, or are they going (or are they even able) to put pressure on Putin.
I'll be honest, I still don't really know if Putin controls the kleptocrats, or they control him.
Bit of both. No one makes money in Russia without the permission of Putin (they have to give a certain percentage to him like a proper gangsta organisation). But it is they who actually control and launder the money for him, hold regional political posts etc, so it is they who keep him in power. Once it starts hurting them personally...
-
Based on the conversation Macron has had with mad vlad today I’d do this.
Tell him NATO and EU guarantee Ukraine’s neutrality. Stop the war as a result.
Wait till he croaks it and then move the goalposts.
Bide time, save lives.
Putin isn't interested in Ukraine being neutral. He doesn't believe Ukraine should exist as a country - he wants it to be part of greater Russia. He said so last week.
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Uh oh,
Erdogan says Turkey will limit Russian access to the Black Sea. How do they propose to do that???
And let's not forget Turkey is a NATO member. Erdogan apparently isn't happy with the western response. Not robust enough for his liking...
Turkey own the straits around its country which Russia use to access the Black Sea. They have legal rights to close the straits during times of war, it wouldn't stop Russian ships returning to Russia via the straits, but would stop Russia send further ships through to Ukraine
Right. And Russia says we're coming through anyway... What does Turkey do then?
Sink a couple of old cargo wrecks in the shipping lane.
-
Some of us wanted Abbott and Corbyn - We'd have been better with Abbott and Costello.
Well done. You've surpassed yourself again.
Nothing to offer on the biggest crisis in Europe in 75 years. Just more political point scoring. You must be very proud of yourself.
Have you read BobG's post, you clown?
Yes. And he's also contributed to the wider debate. You have given zero.
-
BB. I really do admire your wit, your panache and your conviction. But this is a little bit serious man. Please. Give over, on this thread at least, from the point scoring. I know you will now point to my humorous post 696 above as the very same thing. But it isn't. It really isn't. It makes a deadly, deadly serious point about the inadequacies of our 'leader' now on display to the entire world. I tried to make it humorous to highlight the message. You have now reinforced that very point with your ill timed and ill considered response
BobG
-
BB. Another point. As you know I am in Colombia. Although my Spanish isn't the best, almost every time I meet someone for long enough to have a conversation, they raise the subject of BJ. And then they laugh their heads off. I am not lying here BB. I am British just like you. I try to defend this country. And then I get laughed at too. Boris Johnson is nothing more than a great big, fat joke here.
How can you defend what is patently indefensible???
BobG
-
Some of us wanted Abbott and Corbyn - We'd have been better with Abbott and Costello.
Well done. You've surpassed yourself again.
Nothing to offer on the biggest crisis in Europe in 75 years. Just more political point scoring. You must be very proud of yourself.
Have you read BobG's post, you clown?
Yes. And he's also contributed to the wider debate. You have given zero.
I don't go out of my way to offer an opinion on here so much these days, other than to comment when the inevitable political point-scoring presents its ugly face.
........... And when it does, and I respond, YOU accuse ME of it!
..........Another inevitability!
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BB. I really do admire your wit, your panache and your conviction. But this is a little bit serious man. Please. Give over, on this thread at least, from the point scoring. I know you will now point to my humorous post 696 above as the very same thing. But it isn't. It really isn't. It makes a deadly, deadly serious point about the inadequacies of our 'leader' now on display to the entire world. I tried to make it humorous to highlight the message. You have now reinforced that very point with your ill timed and ill considered response
BobG
And I was making a deadly, deadly serious point about the inadequacies of what the alternative would have been in Corbyn and Abbott.
-
You really can't even see an olive branch can you BB?
BobG
-
BobG,
We all know what a clown Johnson is, but what on Earth has that to do with what's happening in Ukraine?
-
You really can't even see an olive branch can you BB?
BobG
It's called conviction, Bob.
-
But your position is hypothetical It was, and is, impossible for those two to lead any government. Whereas rhe point of my post above is that we really do have a comedian leading rhis country now. You comment on fantasies BB. The rest of the contributors to this thread comment on realities.
BobG
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Scawsby - take a look at the position of HIS government on refugees.
Take a look at the failure to sanction a huge host of Putin supporting oligarchs.
Take a look at the failure to implement a recommendation from his own bloody review that the beneficial owners of expensive UK properties be disclosed. Can't think why he wouldn't have done that...
Take a look at the failure in a decade of Tory government to tackle the laundering of dirty Russian money in the UK. And guess who the owners of that money support?!
BobG
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But your position is hypothetical It was, and is, impossible for those two to lead any government. Whereas rhe point of my post above is that we really do have a comedian leading rhis country now. You comment on fantasies BB. The rest of the contributors to this thread comment on realities.
BobG
It wouldn't have been hypothetical if most people didn't share my opinion of them. They would have been leading our country FFS.
-
Scawsby - take a look at the position of HIS government on refugees.
Take a look at the failure to sanction a huge host of Putin supporting oligarchs.
Take a look at the failure to implement a recommendation from his own bloody review that the beneficial owners of expensive UK properties be disclosed. Can't think why he wouldn't have done that...
BobG
Come on, Bob, none of that was the reason for your first post. You were political point scoring, and you know it.
-
Oh for Gods sake BB. They were never going to form a government in a million years. Move on man! That's not even fish and chip wrapping now. The world is a different place. Please, try to keep up. It'll probably even help your blood pressure :):):)
BobG
-
Can the thread get back on topic.
Doesn't need to be derailed by people wanting to shag political parties.
-
Scawsby - take a look at the position of HIS government on refugees.
Take a look at the failure to sanction a huge host of Putin supporting oligarchs.
Take a look at the failure to implement a recommendation from his own bloody review that the beneficial owners of expensive UK properties be disclosed. Can't think why he wouldn't have done that...
BobG
Come on, Bob, none of that was the reason for your first post. You were political point scoring, and you know it.
[/quote
I bloody well was not Sreve. I was trying, obviously badly, to make clear a very, very serious problem for this country. We are being laughed at even in bloody Colombia!
BobG
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Once again a thread disintegrates into a point scoring exercise on left right politics.
On this, of all threads, At a time, for once, when nations and organisations are uniting together for the common good.
Come on men.we are better than this.
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Once again a thread disintegrates into a point scoring exercise on left right politics.
On this, of all threads, At a time, for once, when nations and organisations are uniting together for the common good.
Come on men.we are better than this.
Well said, NR.
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Once again a thread disintegrates into a point scoring exercise on left right politics.
On this, of all threads, At a time, for once, when nations and organisations are uniting together for the common good.
Come on men.we are better than this.
It appears we're not better than this, and what is worse, we are not much better at pointing a finger in the right direction of where it started either!
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I have said it many times but it still holds true.
There are people on this forum who have never criticised Alexander de Pfellel Johnson, for any of his actions, lies or corruption. But will belittle, criticise and attack those who do. The topic doesn't matter when defending their 'leader'.
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Bob has quite a history of accusing people of things he is guilty of.
As for the Bob/Bentley jokes, either laugh at them both(as I did) or condemn them both. But how anyone can treat one with disgust and have no comment on the other is absolutely beyond me.
Well actually, it isn’t beyond me - it’s crystal clear why.
-
Louis doing his bit
Louis Tomlinson cancels shows in Moscow and Kyiv
Pop singer Louis Tomlinson has cancelled his shows in Moscow and Kyiv due to the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
The former member of British boyband One Direction said the safety of his fans is his "priority".
-
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/609530/
-
There are about 500 oligarchs surrounding Vladimir Putin who collectively have about the same wealth as the rest of the Russian population combined. Much of that wealth is stashed in London.
https://twitter.com/LBC/status/1498390335210369039
-
Johnson is Vlad's branch manager in the UK, washing the proceeds of kleptocracy for the oligarchs.
You can read a bit more here (referenced with links) for those who like a bit more detail;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/uk-russia-sanctions-ukraine-not-enough-boris-johnson/
Still, those who voted for Bozo knew that when they gave him their support, did they not?
-
Putin's spokesman today said that the sanctions won't hurt him personally as all he owns is a small flat in Moscow and a trailer.
It was a bright cold day in February and the clocks were striking 13.
-
Nationalism and money stashed in London ......... hmmmm
-
Johnson is Vlad's branch manager in the UK, washing the proceeds of kleptocracy for the oligarchs.
You can read a bit more here (referenced with links) for those who like a bit more detail;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/uk-russia-sanctions-ukraine-not-enough-boris-johnson/
Still, those who voted for Bozo knew that when they gave him their support, did they not?
The oligarchs who pour money into the Tory party call London "The Laundromat". It's where their shit gets washed spotlessly clean.
-
I forgot to say that the Open Democracy article was written a few days ago, and the context is moving.
The point is the link through to the background references.
Sorry it is a bit long winded, but some things are complicated and require a bit of effort to understand.
-
Putin's spokesman by the way, looks like a 60 year old Rotherham fan.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2022/2/28/96050e57-0368-4b34-9938-946901be38e9.jpg)
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''‘It started with Polish mums’: Yorkshire comes together to help Ukraine
An appeal in Leeds for donations to help desperate Ukrainians has created a multinational army of volunteers''
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/feb/28/it-started-with-polish-mums-yorkshire-comes-together-to-help-ukraine
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Compared to this .......
A Ukrainian woman and her 15-year-old diabetic daughter say they are feeling increasingly distraught after escaping the conflict in Ukraine only to be blocked from a visa the UK government announced on Sunday evening for which they are eligible.
Yakiv Voloshchuk, 60, a British citizen, rescued his wife, Oksana Voloshchuk, 41 and their daughter, Veronika Voloshchuk, from Poland on 26 February.
He drove from his home in London to the Polish border and waited for them to get across Ukraine’s border with Poland. He then did a return 24-hour journey by road across Europe before reaching Paris on Sunday where he hoped he would get the green light from British officials to bring his wife and daughter on the last leg of the journey to the UK.
The family hoped it would be straightforward to reach the UK, especially after the publication of new Home Office guidance giving permission for some immediate family members of British citizens to apply free of charge to join their loved ones in the UK.
But when Oksana and Veronika tried to apply for the new visa online they were blocked from proceeding unless they paid thousands of pounds, even though the application is supposed to be free.
“We just don’t know what to do,” Voloshchuk told the Guardian on Monday morning. “My wife’s bank account in Ukraine is frozen. We have booked into a hotel in Paris for a couple of days but I want to bring my family back to the UK to my home in London.
“We are getting very worried about my daughter because she is type 1 diabetic and is running out of insulin. We also don’t have a lot of money for food. She needs to eat regularly.”
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So much for targetting military targets, Russia is now shelling built up civilian areas, it had to come I suppose just adds to the list of war crimes
Classic terror tactics.
Hitler found civilian populations are prepared to endure an awful lot. It might even have a galvanising effect.
Not only Hitler's mistake.
The Allies dropped 50 tonnes of high explosives on Germany for every 1 tonne Hitler fired at the UK. There's no evidence that it significantly harmed German civilian morale.
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I see Sberbank shares dropped by 70% on the London stock exchange today.
Which raises a big question.
What the f**k us Russia's largest bank doing still being allowed to trade on the London stock exchange?
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So much for targetting military targets, Russia is now shelling built up civilian areas, it had to come I suppose just adds to the list of war crimes
Classic terror tactics.
Hitler found civilian populations are prepared to endure an awful lot. It might even have a galvanising effect.
Not only Hitler's mistake.
The Allies dropped 50 tonnes of high explosives on Germany for every 1 tonne Hitler fired at the UK. There's no evidence that it significantly harmed German civilian morale.
I wouldn't dispute the Allies used the same tactics on Nazi Germany.
Germany made a mistake of targeting London when really focussing on military and industrial sites might well have brought them success in invading Britain.
In this case though, the primary objective of the Russians is to break the Ukrainian people. Still shocking to see footage of cluster bomb attacks on the news, I fear it will get worse. They know they have thermobaric missle launchers over there now.
My best mate is convinced he will use nuclear in someway, perhaps damaging a powerstation or directly within Ukraine. Christ knows how we'd react to that.
-
Well, bugger me......the Russia Report from 2019 has turned up again, the one they didn't want anyone to see so they delayed publication for ages;
https://isc.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/CCS207_CCS0221966010-001_Russia-Report-v02-Web_Accessible.pdf
Damned inconvenient that!
All over social media as well, such a pity.
Easy to forget about stuff quickly, isn't it!
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If there is one positive to hang onto, it is the bizarre Russian tactics to date.
Their military doctorine is to smash opposition with massive artillery and air attacks, then sweep up the remains of the opposition with ground troops.
That results in horrific casualties on the other side.
But they absolutely haven't done that to date. They've sent the ground troops in first and taken heavy casualties by doing so. It's almost like they've gone out of their way to avoid mass civillian casualties (once the war had started) even at the expense of taking their own hits.
Even the indiscriminate rocket attacks on urban areas have been few and far between. They don't look, so far, like a strategy of pulverising the Ukraine urban areas.
That suggests that there's some reticence to go the Full Monty on war crime level behaviour.
Of course Putin might be truly insane, but at the moment it feels like a big step from him acting like this to going nuclear.
-
That huge column of vehicles heading towards Kyiv suggests things are about to be stepped up.
It does look as though they thought a swift attack would see resistance quickly crumble and they'd be able to install a compliant government with little fuss.
That initial failure doesn't look to be deterring them. The peace talks don't look promising, they are dismissing the sanctions and they are going to chuck a lot more military at it. It looks like they are prepared to go on stepping up the pressure.
-
Well, bugger me......the Russia Report from 2019 has turned up again, the one they didn't want anyone to see so they delayed publication for ages;
https://isc.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/CCS207_CCS0221966010-001_Russia-Report-v02-Web_Accessible.pdf
Damned inconvenient that!
All over social media as well, such a pity.
Easy to forget about stuff quickly, isn't it!
Ah yes the Intelligence Committee where johnson tried to install his stooge Grayling .....
''The clearest requirement for immediate action is for new legislation: the Intelligence
Community must be given the tools it needs and be put in the best possible position
if it is to tackle this very capable adversary, and this means a new statutory
framework to tackle espionage, the illicit financial dealings of the Russian elite and
the ‘enablers’ who support this activity''
this recommendation fell on stoney ground
-
Apparently Ukrainian airforce pilots are in Poland picking up 70 Mig-29’s donated by the EU, the Mig-29 was used by the Ukrainian Air Force, so the pilots could just get in them and fly. If true they should be in the air and routing that 40 mile column of Russian troops
-
Apparently Ukrainian airforce pilots are in Poland picking up 70 Mig-29’s donated by the EU, the Mig-29 was used by the Ukrainian Air Force, so the pilots could just get in them and fly. If true they should be in the air and routing that 40 mile column of Russian troops
It seems very obliging of the Russian army to line up a column of armaments and vehicles along a 40 mile stretch of road...
It also appears that one of Putin's allies has stated that he won't support Mad Vlad with military troops...
Belarus will not join invasion - Lukashenko
The leader of Belarus, Alexander Lukashenko, has told state media that his forces will not join Russian troops in the invasion of Ukraine.
Lukashenko, who is a close ally of Vladimir Putin, said that the "Belarusian army isn't taking part in military action, and never did".
"We can prove this to anyone. More than that, the Russian leadership never raised this issue with us - our involvement in the armed conflict. And we don't intend to take part in this special operation in Ukraine in the future. There is no need for this."
Fears had been raised on Monday that Lukashenko was preparing to send a military force to join in the attack on Kyiv.
A spokesperson for the US State Department, Ned Price, said on Monday that Russia had "make a mockery" of Belarus' sovereignty by launching its invasion of Ukraine from Belarusian territory.
-
Stages of denial.
1) It's not happening.
2) It's happening but it's not us.
3) It's happening and it is us, but it's morally justifiable.
4) It's not morally justifiable but you did the same thing first, so it's ok.
5) It's not ok and it's f**king me over mentally to defend this, but what do you want me to do?
https://mobile.twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1498385889692721152
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https://twitter.com/DmytroKuleba/status/1498569115950272517?t=T3V9Q9Xy7fznGlfoApXulg&s=19 (https://twitter.com/DmytroKuleba/status/1498569115950272517?t=T3V9Q9Xy7fznGlfoApXulg&s=19)
Horrific.
-
I've only just discovered Kharkiv is a majority Russian speaking city.
...so the way Putin is protecting Russians in Ukraine is by bombing the f**k out of them.
-
It looks like the EU are preparing to stop importing Russian oil and gas.
This will bring pain to Russia but it will also be very difficult in Europe
-
Pathetic position from Labour on the refugee issue;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukraine-war-refugees-uk-eu-labour-b2025568.html
Lets look like we care while doing as little as we can get away with.
What a set of wazzocks our political elites are!
-
Brent crude hitting $107 a barrel now.
If this carries on we're going to see a severe downturn.
-
Pathetic position from Labour on the refugee issue;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukraine-war-refugees-uk-eu-labour-b2025568.html
Lets look like we care while doing as little as we can get away with.
What a set of wazzocks our political elites are!
Waiting for the red wall focus groups to tell them what to say first.
-
Pathetic position from Labour on the refugee issue;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukraine-war-refugees-uk-eu-labour-b2025568.html
Lets look like we care while doing as little as we can get away with.
What a set of wazzocks our political elites are!
Albie, it will be interesting to see how many of those who have slated the government position on this, come back and say the same about the Labour position.
-
Pathetic position from Labour on the refugee issue;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukraine-war-refugees-uk-eu-labour-b2025568.html
Lets look like we care while doing as little as we can get away with.
What a set of wazzocks our political elites are!
As the tories are following the Australian coalition's lead on refugees, who wrote the book on the subject they will understand very well that every opportunity to use this human tide of misery will be used as a political wedge to continue the culture wars to the max with the aid of the rw media of course.
-
Pathetic position from Labour on the refugee issue;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukraine-war-refugees-uk-eu-labour-b2025568.html
Lets look like we care while doing as little as we can get away with.
What a set of wazzocks our political elites are!
The Shadow Minister for Immigration was on the radio yesterday, saying explicitly that there are several different ways of managing the open door policy, spelling them out in detail and saying Labour would support any of those and it was the job of the Govt to determine which was fastest and most appropriate - Labour would back them.
-
Johnson getting a strip torn off him by a Ukrainian journalist .
Note Bunter's body language .
No fridges to hide here Bunter .... You got that .
https://youtu.be/QgFA5bXXOP0
-
But she's wrong and he's right. That's the grim reality.
NATO cannot and MUST NOT directly defend Ukraine. It is a horrific truth, but Ukraine is in this alone as far as direct military action is concerned.
Because the alternative is simply too dangerous for the whole of humanity.
My heart goes out to Ukraine, but there is no getting around that horrible fact.
-
Johnson getting a strip torn off him by a Ukrainian journalist .
Note Bunter's body language .
No fridges to hide here Bunter .... You got that .
https://youtu.be/QgFA5bXXOP0
We have to allow refugees from Ukraine into the UK.
The government have said they will allow 100,000 (I think) in if they have family here but should be prepared to go further than that.
Raab was on tv this morning saying that the uk and other European countries were aware that many of the refugees would want to stay fairly close to their homeland in the hope that their displacement will be temporary and that they would be able to be repatriated sooner rather than later.
Labour obviously are getting a free pass for not pressing for more refugees to come here.
-
But she's wrong and he's right. That's the grim reality.
NATO cannot and MUST NOT directly defend Ukraine. It is a horrific truth, but Ukraine is in this alone as far as direct military action is concerned.
Because the alternative is simply too dangerous for the whole of humanity.
My heart goes out to Ukraine, but there is no getting around that horrible fact.
I get that Billy but despite some impressive sanctions we need to do more .
I'm not comfortable saying this but then again I'm absolutely horrified what's happening right now and what further horrors await the Ukrainians .
The Russian people have to be hit massively so they rise up and bring Putin down .
We saw in 1989/90 how it's done .
I'm afraid and I hate saying this but people in Russia need to be on the verge of starvation to force them on the streets .
A million people in Red Square and not even Putin can stop them .
-
Johnson getting a strip torn off him by a Ukrainian journalist .
Note Bunter's body language .
No fridges to hide here Bunter .... You got that .
https://youtu.be/QgFA5bXXOP0
We have to allow refugees from Ukraine into the UK.
The government have said they will allow 100,000 (I think) in if they have family here but should be prepared to go further than that.
Raab was on tv this morning saying that the uk and other European countries were aware that many of the refugees would want to stay fairly close to their homeland in the hope that their displacement will be temporary and that they would be able to be repatriated sooner rather than later.
Labour obviously are getting a free pass for not pressing for more refugees to come here.
With respect Hound I'm not getting involved in party politics right now .
No offence intended mate .
-
Johnson getting a strip torn off him by a Ukrainian journalist .
Note Bunter's body language .
No fridges to hide here Bunter .... You got that .
https://youtu.be/QgFA5bXXOP0
We have to allow refugees from Ukraine into the UK.
The government have said they will allow 100,000 (I think) in if they have family here but should be prepared to go further than that.
Raab was on tv this morning saying that the uk and other European countries were aware that many of the refugees would want to stay fairly close to their homeland in the hope that their displacement will be temporary and that they would be able to be repatriated sooner rather than later.
Labour obviously are getting a free pass for not pressing for more refugees to come here.
With respect Hound I'm not getting involved in party politics right now .
No offence intended mate .
No problem tyke.
I just feel that it needs to be said.
Three or four posters on here have already started the political stance by having a pop at the government so, just for balance of course, I am offering another opinion.
No doubt some of them will be on my case.
-
See post 762
-
Johnson getting a strip torn off him by a Ukrainian journalist .
Note Bunter's body language .
No fridges to hide here Bunter .... You got that .
https://youtu.be/QgFA5bXXOP0
We have to allow refugees from Ukraine into the UK.
The government have said they will allow 100,000 (I think) in if they have family here but should be prepared to go further than that.
Raab was on tv this morning saying that the uk and other European countries were aware that many of the refugees would want to stay fairly close to their homeland in the hope that their displacement will be temporary and that they would be able to be repatriated sooner rather than later.
Labour obviously are getting a free pass for not pressing for more refugees to come here.
With respect Hound I'm not getting involved in party politics right now .
No offence intended mate .
No problem tyke.
I just feel that it needs to be said.
Three or four posters on here have already started the political stance by having a pop at the government so, just for balance of course, I am offering another opinion.
No doubt some of them will be on my case.
All I'll say Hound is that both our major party's have had Governments covering Putin's tenure .
I'll leave it at that .
-
Johnson getting a strip torn off him by a Ukrainian journalist .
Note Bunter's body language .
No fridges to hide here Bunter .... You got that .
https://youtu.be/QgFA5bXXOP0
We have to allow refugees from Ukraine into the UK.
The government have said they will allow 100,000 (I think) in if they have family here but should be prepared to go further than that.
Raab was on tv this morning saying that the uk and other European countries were aware that many of the refugees would want to stay fairly close to their homeland in the hope that their displacement will be temporary and that they would be able to be repatriated sooner rather than later.
Labour obviously are getting a free pass for not pressing for more refugees to come here.
With respect Hound I'm not getting involved in party politics right now .
No offence intended mate .
No problem tyke.
I just feel that it needs to be said.
Three or four posters on here have already started the political stance by having a pop at the government so, just for balance of course, I am offering another opinion.
No doubt some of them will be on my case.
According to a number of callers with family in Ukraine on the radio - what Patel announced today was still just government spin. The numbers she announced are plucked from thin air and irrelevent as to enter this country they would still need paperwork and a visa. It is impossible to get that in Ukraine and not made clear how people who have fled for their lives can obtain one outside.
But you keep attacking Labour. For balance
Its
-
Brent crude just gone over $110
-
There's a report in the Guardian that says the large Russian column heading to Kyiv has stalled, not moving very far since yesterday.
There is speculation that Ukrainian forces are successfully targetting its supply lines.
Or that the Russians have stopped themselves for some reason.
-
If they have no paperwork it should not be a problem, get to France and come over in a dingy they will go straight to the best hotels.
Funny how we put obstacles in front of genuine refugees fleeing a war taking place every day on our TV's, and welcome dubious economic migrants with open arms, disgusting.
-
See post 762
See post 759
-
Pathetic position from Labour on the refugee issue;
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/ukraine-war-refugees-uk-eu-labour-b2025568.html
Lets look like we care while doing as little as we can get away with.
What a set of wazzocks our political elites are!
The Shadow Minister for Immigration was on the radio yesterday, saying explicitly that there are several different ways of managing the open door policy, spelling them out in detail and saying Labour would support any of those and it was the job of the Govt to determine which was fastest and most appropriate - Labour would back them.
BST,
Labour is not calling for an open door policy, and it should.
On Newsnight Mark Urban asked directly;
https://twitter.com/i/status/1498444136327831552
Go to 1min 40....instead of saying yes, she reverts to talking about re-uniting families, and the Hong Kong scheme, this is complete drivel.
People are fleeing a war zone, with a few belongings in a bag.
Fart-arseing about with distinctions on who qualifies and who does not is just a recipe for delay and confusion.
The EU have understood it, our neighbours in Ireland also.
If you can't see that this is just leaning in the crap Patel is spouting, I don't know where you are coming from.
Summary here;
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/politics/fury-as-labour-wont-back-eus-open-door-policy-for-ukrainian-refugees-314196/
It is very simple!
-
Johnson getting a strip torn off him by a Ukrainian journalist .
Note Bunter's body language .
No fridges to hide here Bunter .... You got that .
https://youtu.be/QgFA5bXXOP0
We have to allow refugees from Ukraine into the UK.
The government have said they will allow 100,000 (I think) in if they have family here but should be prepared to go further than that.
Raab was on tv this morning saying that the uk and other European countries were aware that many of the refugees would want to stay fairly close to their homeland in the hope that their displacement will be temporary and that they would be able to be repatriated sooner rather than later.
Labour obviously are getting a free pass for not pressing for more refugees to come here.
With respect Hound I'm not getting involved in party politics right now .
No offence intended mate .
No problem tyke.
I just feel that it needs to be said.
Three or four posters on here have already started the political stance by having a pop at the government so, just for balance of course, I am offering another opinion.
No doubt some of them will be on my case.
According to a number of callers with family in Ukraine on the radio - what Patel announced today was still just government spin. The numbers she announced are plucked from thin air and irrelevent as to enter this country they would still need paperwork and a visa. It is impossible to get that in Ukraine and not made clear how people who have fled for their lives can obtain one outside.
But you keep attacking Labour. For balance
Its
Wilts, with respect, “according to a number of callers” isn’t particularly good evidence.
Just so that you understand my position, I have said we should be allowing Ukrainians into the country.
My wife and I would be happy to allow a small family with nowhere to go to live in our house with us, short term until they could get a place of their own.
We also have a tenant due to move out of one of our properties soon and would be happy to house a family rent free for say six months if it helped them if our current tenant there does move on.
With regards to your final comment, there are certain posters who constantly and consistently attack the government, searching online press articles to post willy nilly.
I just get sick to death of seeing it.
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A very serious thread about a very serious situation, is going down the political lines yet again, can we just for once keep this on topic and discuss the tragic situation in Ukraine, and this is an appeal to all sides of the Political spectrum
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I see Eurovision have banned Russia from the Song Contest...
No Eurovision in Russia? Why are we letting them off like this?
Sorry. Very serious thread, quite right.
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https://twitter.com/AmichaiStein1/status/1498690456812765185?t=JJwqQLrqP8ldf_DSHBt8jw&s=19
Moldova next?
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Johnson getting a strip torn off him by a Ukrainian journalist .
Note Bunter's body language .
No fridges to hide here Bunter .... You got that .
https://youtu.be/QgFA5bXXOP0
We have to allow refugees from Ukraine into the UK.
The government have said they will allow 100,000 (I think) in if they have family here but should be prepared to go further than that.
Raab was on tv this morning saying that the uk and other European countries were aware that many of the refugees would want to stay fairly close to their homeland in the hope that their displacement will be temporary and that they would be able to be repatriated sooner rather than later.
Labour obviously are getting a free pass for not pressing for more refugees to come here.
With respect Hound I'm not getting involved in party politics right now .
No offence intended mate .
No problem tyke.
I just feel that it needs to be said.
Three or four posters on here have already started the political stance by having a pop at the government so, just for balance of course, I am offering another opinion.
No doubt some of them will be on my case.
Hound this interview offers up plenty of balance on why we are where we are today .
I'm not saying it's right or wrong because to be honest I don't really know without totally fact checking the dialogue .
About 20 minutes long .
https://youtu.be/XvmddazUW3I
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See post 762
See post 759
Touché
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Johnson getting a strip torn off him by a Ukrainian journalist .
Note Bunter's body language .
No fridges to hide here Bunter .... You got that .
https://youtu.be/QgFA5bXXOP0
Johnson is right. Direct engagement with Russian planes will create a situation that is very difficult to control. Perhaps that reporter has no concept of Mutually Assited destruction. Perhaps she has no idea that Putin has already placed close family in a nuclear hideout far far away .
She is a reporter, not a primate minister.
Level heads are very much needed over the coming days and weeks.
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Johnson getting a strip torn off him by a Ukrainian journalist .
Note Bunter's body language .
No fridges to hide here Bunter .... You got that .
https://youtu.be/QgFA5bXXOP0
Johnson is right. Direct engagement with Russian planes will create a situation that is very difficult to control. Perhaps that reporter has no concept of Mutually Assited destruction. Perhaps she has no idea that Putin has already placed close family in a nuclear hideout far far away .
She is a reporter, not a primate minister.
Level heads are very much needed over the coming days and weeks.
Amen to that.
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This massive column of military vehicles...
It started out three miles long, then seventeen, then 30 or 40. It sounds formidable but my question to those with military experience.
Would you want miles and miles of military vehicles stood in a massive traffic jam in the middle of open country?
I keep trying to find news of what's happening with it but it just seems to be stood.
-
Johnson getting a strip torn off him by a Ukrainian journalist .
Note Bunter's body language .
No fridges to hide here Bunter .... You got that .
https://youtu.be/QgFA5bXXOP0
Johnson is right. Direct engagement with Russian planes will create a situation that is very difficult to control. Perhaps that reporter has no concept of Mutually Assited destruction. Perhaps she has no idea that Putin has already placed close family in a nuclear hideout far far away .
She is a reporter, not a primate minister.
Level heads are very much needed over the coming days and weeks.
She is well aware that Putin has put family well out of the way - she mentions that in the question. They are in the Netherlands.
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Isn't one of Putins daughters meant to be holed up at the billionaires playground at St Georges hill in Weybridge?
-
Johnson getting a strip torn off him by a Ukrainian journalist .
Note Bunter's body language .
No fridges to hide here Bunter .... You got that .
https://youtu.be/QgFA5bXXOP0
Johnson is right. Direct engagement with Russian planes will create a situation that is very difficult to control. Perhaps that reporter has no concept of Mutually Assited destruction. Perhaps she has no idea that Putin has already placed close family in a nuclear hideout far far away .
She is a reporter, not a primate minister.
Level heads are very much needed over the coming days and weeks.
She is well aware that Putin has put family well out of the way - she mentions that in the question. They are in the Netherlands.
I doubt it.one of his daughters was found to be living there in 2104 just after the Malaysian flight was shot down by pro Russian rebels, which enraged locals so much she sold up. As of 2015 they have been living in Moscow. this report from yesterday:
"At the weekend, President Putin's family was evacuated to a special bunker prepared in case of nuclear war. This bunker is located in the [mountainous] Altai Republic. In fact, it is not a bunker, but a whole underground city, equipped with the latest science and technology.
The location is a sprawling mountain dacha built ostensibly by Gazprom around a decade ago in the Ongudaysky district of the Altai Republic, a region of Siberia bordering Mongolia, China and Kazakhstan.
Now , this might tell you something about Putins current mindset.
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I have been reading a lot on here and watching/listening to the news. I am not educated enough in the ins and outs of this situation to involve myself in the heart of discussion on this topic.
But. I believe Russia to be the 2nd most powerful country on the planet. I think they have lots of dangerous allies. Putin is probably the most dangerous person in the world right now, with the power to back it up.
However, it seems he has underestimated Ukraine and effectively the rest of the world in their response, including much of his own people. Did he REALLY not expect any of this?
I’m struggling to believe that Putin/Russia could really have been so naïve. And in turn, I worry all this is part of his plan, whatever that may be.
Please, someone more learned, tell me I’m wrong.
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There are stories from Russian troops that they were led to believe that they would be welcomed with open arms by the majority. And that the only opposition would have been in the east where there have been overt pockets of resistance since the annexing of Crimea.
Their intelligence picture could not have been more wrong.
It does beg the question though, why utilise so many troops?
The only other plausible explanation is this is all a play to antagonise the west into retaliating. And that would justify him using the ultimate response.
If some reports are true, he has an illness that he is keeping hidden. Possibly terminal. Is he staring down the barrel of his own mortality?
Does he believe he has the answer to humanities issues?
A nihillistic final solution?
He has a failed marriage, 5 kids to two different partners. His eldest daughter was essentially kicked out of the Netherlands. His other is single. Neither have kids. They were brought up in East Europe in the 80’s. That’s Tough times to bring up a young family.
Does he think he has nothing to lose.? Or his family? who are now understood to be protected?
If he is going down the path of no one can hurt me or my family now.?
Let’s not forget, for context, he has been quoted as saying “a world without Russia would not be worth living in.”
If he fails, or is seen to fail in Ukraine , then The Russia we know currently is finished. He would be finished. This is a macho d**khead who rides horses with his shirt off through the Siberian Tundra. He sees himself as the quintessential real rugged man. A hero. A role model to fellow male Russians . He is about to be paraded in front of the whole world as nothing more than a political Eunoch. A failure.
If so, then we should all be very, very concerned. He could set in motion something that cannot be controlled , as Johnson put earlier today.
We may already be there of course.
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The Sun has been carrying a story today that an amphibious attack on Odessa had to be called off because troops rioted on board ship and refused to do it.
Could the Russian military have lost control of the narrative?
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This massive column of military vehicles...
It started out three miles long, then seventeen, then 30 or 40. It sounds formidable but my question to those with military experience.
Would you want miles and miles of military vehicles stood in a massive traffic jam in the middle of open country?
I keep trying to find news of what's happening with it but it just seems to be stood.
Some more clarity tonight. It's not a continuous column, it's split into groups. The surrounding land is very boggy so they are stuck on the road. There are some broken down vehicles holding things up. It seems the Ukrainians don't have the capability to attack it from the air. They might possibly be attacking it on the ground but they don't know.
-
Johnson getting a strip torn off him by a Ukrainian journalist .
Note Bunter's body language .
No fridges to hide here Bunter .... You got that .
https://youtu.be/QgFA5bXXOP0
Johnson is right. Direct engagement with Russian planes will create a situation that is very difficult to control. Perhaps that reporter has no concept of Mutually Assited destruction. Perhaps she has no idea that Putin has already placed close family in a nuclear hideout far far away .
She is a reporter, not a primate minister.
Level heads are very much needed over the coming days and weeks.
She is well aware that Putin has put family well out of the way - she mentions that in the question. They are in the Netherlands.
I doubt it.one of his daughters was found to be living there in 2104 just after the Malaysian flight was shot down by pro Russian rebels, which enraged locals so much she sold up. As of 2015 they have been living in Moscow. this report from yesterday:
"At the weekend, President Putin's family was evacuated to a special bunker prepared in case of nuclear war. This bunker is located in the [mountainous] Altai Republic. In fact, it is not a bunker, but a whole underground city, equipped with the latest science and technology.
The location is a sprawling mountain dacha built ostensibly by Gazprom around a decade ago in the Ongudaysky district of the Altai Republic, a region of Siberia bordering Mongolia, China and Kazakhstan.
Now , this might tell you something about Putins current mindset.
I thik that report (if it's true as the bloke who told the story is described as a conspiracy theorist) refers to his current mistress and their children.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/vladimir-putin-moved-family-secret-26358879
The journalist is likely referring to his daughter who married the Dutch guy and their family? Or maybe the daughter he has never acknowledged?
This is the Channel 4 News interview with her tonight:
https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1498766023180406796
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This massive column of military vehicles...
It started out three miles long, then seventeen, then 30 or 40. It sounds formidable but my question to those with military experience.
Would you want miles and miles of military vehicles stood in a massive traffic jam in the middle of open country?
I keep trying to find news of what's happening with it but it just seems to be stood.
Some more clarity tonight. It's not a continuous column, it's split into groups. The surrounding land is very boggy so they are stuck on the road. There are some broken down vehicles holding things up. It seems the Ukrainians don't have the capability to attack it from the air. They might possibly be attacking it on the ground but they don't know.
They will have when the 70 Mig's from Poland arrive.
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There will be a massive logistics problem to solve with that option
-
I have been reading a lot on here and watching/listening to the news. I am not educated enough in the ins and outs of this situation to involve myself in the heart of discussion on this topic.
But. I believe Russia to be the 2nd most powerful country on the planet. I think they have lots of dangerous allies. Putin is probably the most dangerous person in the world right now, with the power to back it up.
However, it seems he has underestimated Ukraine and effectively the rest of the world in their response, including much of his own people. Did he REALLY not expect any of this?
I’m struggling to believe that Putin/Russia could really have been so naïve. And in turn, I worry all this is part of his plan, whatever that may be.
Please, someone more learned, tell me I’m wrong.
Go on then. I am as educated as yourself on this Belton - but I think you are wrong.
No way did Putin expect Russia to be cut off from the world banking system, for the rouble to crash and ATM's in Russia to be running out of money. No way did he expect Russia to be kicked out of the World Cup, St Petersburg to loose the Champions League Final and to be expelled as President of the World Judo Federation (his favourite sport) among many other humiliations.
I think he expected a quick military victory and the rest of the world to ignore it, as they have done in the past. I think he has vastly over-estimated his own capabilities and under-estimated everyone else. Especially Ukraine.
I cant say I am re-assured by any of this however. I dont see any immediate good outcomes. The bloke is mad.
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In my opinion Mad Vlad has nothing to gain now whichever way this War turns out, no one in the world except his poodle in Belarus will consider dealing with him, while ever he is the Russian leader Russia will be isolated fro the rest of the world, the only was this ends is some one assassinates him, or the whole Russian population turn out and overthrow him, then he hangs by the neck until dead
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It's what happens when there is a disreputable leader that lies at the drop of a hat, supports cronyism and corruption, does not respect convention or international law and thinks more about what he wants for himself rather than what is good for the people.
oops nearly forgot ..... surrounds himself with sycophants
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Wow. Appears that China are talking to Russia about a ceasefire.
Might be coincidental as they try to get their citizens out but if they are seen not to be backing Putin, then he's on a slippery slope, if he isn't already.
The Russian Middle class with access to the free media and mega rich will not stand for this. Looking like the ground soldiers haven't got the stomach for it either.
You wonder if and when the attention of Russians will turn away from Kiev and head towards the Kremlin, KGB or no KGB.
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Wow. Appears that China are talking to Russia about a ceasefire.
Might be coincidental as they try to get their citizens out but if they are seen not to be backing Putin, then he's on a slippery slope, if he isn't already.
The Russian Middle class with access to the free media and mega rich will not stand for this. Looking like the ground soldiers haven't got the stomach for it either.
You wonder if and when the attention of Russians will turn away from Kiev and head towards the Kremlin, KGB or no KGB.
Another change in the last week China's new ambassador to Australia has used a more conciliatory approach when discussing relations between Oz and China which is a bit unexpected and although much of less import than what is happening in Europe, fingers crossed.
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There is a need for a humanitarian corridor to enable safe passage of displaced civilians.
This will not be allowed within the war zone by Russia, but once refugees reach a neighbouring country there are going to be massive bottlenecks. Some say up to 7 million could be displaced.
To take the pressure off countries like Poland, the UK (and others) could send in planes to collect those who wanted to come to the UK until it was safe to return home. Remove visa requirements unless you want a paper chase nightmare.
We managed to set up Nightingale Hospitals when the pressure was full on.
We could do this tomorrow....but we won't, will we?
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A report tonight that Polish football hooligans are harassing Indian and African students fleeing Ukraine at the border.
These kids are also finding it difficult to get help and transport out of the country.
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From the Telegraph
Russian troops are "operating in complete disarray", their morale sapped and "crying in combat", voice recordings of frontline soldiers obtained by a British intelligence company suggest.
Intercepted radio messages indicate that troops are refusing to obey central command orders, including to shell Ukrainian towns, while complaining bitterly about running out of supplies of food or fuel.
Separate video recordings show one group of Russian military walking away from the battle front and heading back across the border, having had enough.
In a text message to his mother, one soldier purportedly said: "The only thing I want right now is to kill myself."
A senior Pentagon official said on Tuesday that parts of the Russian army made up of young, poorly trained conscripts were "ill-prepared" for battle and in some cases had "deliberately punched holes" in their vehicles' fuel tanks to make sure they did not reach the front line.
The defence official declined to reveal the source of the intelligence, but indications of poor Russian morale can be heard in audio recordings of radio messaging between troops obtained by British intelligence company ShadowBreak Intl.
This may explain why the column isn't yet moving on Kyiv
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''Ukraine’s Secret Weapon Against Russia: Turkish Drones''
https://time.com/6153197/ukraine-russia-turkish-drones-bayraktar/
18min ago Guardian Live
''Ukraine is set to receive more Stinger and Javelin missiles from abroad, as well as another shipment of Turkish drones, according to Ukrainian defence minister Oleksii Reznikov''
Drone attack on Convoy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyVmySTUkxs
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The Eu arm of Russia’s biggest bank (sberbank) is to be placed into insolvency or sold.
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hopefully putin's getting the message
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I think what we're seeing is Russia going to war with 20th century methods. Tanks, artillery, troops in armored vehicles
The Ukrainians are using computer guided hand held launchers and drones.
Bit of a broad brush but you get what I mean.
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6000 dead Russian soldiers and he moves his family to a bunker in the mountains, he’s a f**king coward, Russian lives as well as Ukrainian lives are expendable to him, as long as him and his family are safe from harm
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Putin will end up being assassinated, whether by western secret services or his own people, it’s the only out now
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On the tv news this morning they were talking about Russian assassination squads being in Kiev trying to get to Zelensky.
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Putin will end up being assassinated, whether by western secret services or his own people, it’s the only out now
I think internal action (maybe not as severe as topping him) may be the best way this ends. Go back to the 80's and early 90's and leaders like Vlad could completely control information and have the entire country believing he's a white knight claiming back their land. Now with the internet, global news and ease of international communication it's different. Hopefully as more and more Russians see the events through the eyes of the world and not state media then more pressure is applied and his rich mates realise his actions are threatening their bank balances.
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British intelligence have been listening in to Russian military comms. Some are downing their tools, refusing to soldier and some are scuttling their own vehicles by punching holes in fuel tanks so they cannot advance. Morale is reportedly non existent.
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In my opinion Mad Vlad has nothing to gain now whichever way this War turns out, no one in the world except his poodle in Belarus will consider dealing with him, while ever he is the Russian leader Russia will be isolated fro the rest of the world, the only was this ends is some one assassinates him, or the whole Russian population turn out and overthrow him, then he hangs by the neck until dead
He may have nothing to gain, but equally he has nothing to lose.
And that’s the really worrying bit.
Wounded animal syndrome. Very very dangerous.
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''Ukraine’s Secret Weapon Against Russia: Turkish Drones''
https://time.com/6153197/ukraine-russia-turkish-drones-bayraktar/
18min ago Guardian Live
''Ukraine is set to receive more Stinger and Javelin missiles from abroad, as well as another shipment of Turkish drones, according to Ukrainian defence minister Oleksii Reznikov''
Drone attack on Convoy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nyVmySTUkxs
The human element of us all should feel a little for those Russian soldiers who are losing their lives over this. They have been placed in an impossible position.
The drone situation is interesting. No nato boots on the ground in Ukraine but what’s to stop a handful of Ukrainian soldiers being seconded to RAF Waddington to operate our drones over their airspace? Rent a drone?
Perhaps it’s already happening?
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Always the human element NR, there is nothing else.
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Always the human element NR, there is nothing else.
Sadly, I’ve seen too many examples of inhumanity being displayed recently. None less than on football supporter platforms. Not this one I hasten to add
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It's inconceivable the intelligence services aren't watching and listening to every Russian move on the ground and feeding the information to the Ukrainian defenders.
The emphasis being on defence, rather than attack as this will play into Putins hands who will play the victim and accuse the West as being aggressors. For now, launching attacks on Russian forces from outside Ukrainian soil is not on the cards as it will be seen to be an act of war on Russia.
Ukraine has to be seen as defending itself and draw the Russians in, with the hope that the further they get in, they will face even greater logistical problems and get bogged down, leaving Putin to use long range indiscriminate missile attacks.
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Putin will end up being assassinated, whether by western secret services or his own people, it’s the only out now
I think internal action (maybe not as severe as topping him) may be the best way this ends. Go back to the 80's and early 90's and leaders like Vlad could completely control information and have the entire country believing he's a white knight claiming back their land. Now with the internet, global news and ease of international communication it's different. Hopefully as more and more Russians see the events through the eyes of the world and not state media then more pressure is applied and his rich mates realise his actions are threatening their bank balances.
You've got to remember Russia is a vast country. There are a lot of people living out in the sticks with very little, having a TV is about as tech as it gets, and Russian TV is completely controlled by Vlad.
In the big cities it maybe different and younger tech savvy people may be getting a different view but is that enough?
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6000 dead Russian soldiers and he moves his family to a bunker in the mountains, he’s a f**king coward, Russian lives as well as Ukrainian lives are expendable to him, as long as him and his family are safe from harm
I don't disagree but life is cheap in the Russian army. They've always been ruthless about killing the enemy but they've never been squeamish about taking mass casualties either.
In many ways the attempt to go in with precision strikes and decapitate the government is completely unlike them. Perhaps that's why they were so poor at it.
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On Four Corners an Oz Panorama they followed an activist that had joined the electoral commission in Russia to see what happened and how and why people voted for certain candidates. They took postal voting forms and a voting box around a large housing complex where the aged lived. The cameras showed that every person in the block voted for putin's stooge they showed why at the first flat they visited.
The woman said that the carer had given her the heads up of who to vote for and it looked like the care package and possibly her home depended on a tick in the correct box.
not sure you can watch it.
https://www.abc.net.au/4corners/
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Putin will end up being assassinated, whether by western secret services or his own people, it’s the only out now
I think internal action (maybe not as severe as topping him) may be the best way this ends. Go back to the 80's and early 90's and leaders like Vlad could completely control information and have the entire country believing he's a white knight claiming back their land. Now with the internet, global news and ease of international communication it's different. Hopefully as more and more Russians see the events through the eyes of the world and not state media then more pressure is applied and his rich mates realise his actions are threatening their bank balances.
You've got to remember Russia is a vast country. There are a lot of people living out in the sticks with very little, having a TV is about as tech as it gets, and Russian TV is completely controlled by Vlad.
In the big cities it maybe different and younger tech savvy people may be getting a different view but is that enough?
You now have soldiers from these areas dying and possibly wounded soldiers returning from the front line telling those in Russia how it really is now though.
It will take time but the Russians will wonder what is taking so long to “liberate” a Ukraine that supposedly wants freedom and a much closer union with Russia.
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Brent crude has been as high as $116 and has been trading above $110 a barrel all morning.
This is really going to put the squeeze on.
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Can you begin to imagine what future historians will make of these times?
Zelezny not half a dozen years ago.
https://mobile.twitter.com/VeraMBergen/status/1498814410911006723
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Here is a massive way that we could practically help Ukraine in a long slog with Russia.
Cancel their national debt.
https://www.openpetition.eu/petition/online/people-around-the-world-demand-imf-to-cancel-ukraines-unjust-debt
Historical note: This is what we did in Britain throughout all the major European wars in the 200-250 years before WWI. We (mostly) stayed out of the large scale fighting. But we acted as financiers of the countries that we wanted to win.
For "UK" now say "The West". The West cannot fight in Ukraine. But it badly need Ukraine to win. Or at least survive. So we should be prepared to take extraordinary financial measures, not just to hurt Russia, but to strengthen Ukraine.
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Signed & donated.
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That huge column queuing up outside Kyiv?
Here's what's left at the front of that queue.
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/NINTCHDBPICT000715774512.jpg?w=1240)
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That huge column queuing up outside Kyiv?
Here's what's left at the front of that queue.
(https://www.thesun.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/NINTCHDBPICT000715774512.jpg?w=1240)
Why are they sticking to the Road? It’s weird plus I bet an Ant Can’t Fart without It being picked up by Western Satellite and reported to the Ukraine Armed forces.
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That photo shows they are within built up areas so are forced to stay on the highways.
Out in the countryside the infamous Ukraine dark earth has thawed, moving off road is very difficult in the mud. So they are stuck on the road.
As you can see all that Russian heavy armour just isn't effective against weapons like the MBT LAW.
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This is worth looking at.
https://warontherocks.com/2021/11/feeding-the-bear-a-closer-look-at-russian-army-logistics/
Written before this conflict started, its basic premise is that the Russian Army has massive supply logistics problems.
Basically, they cannot quickly re-supply a large army with food, fuel and munitions if the front is much more than 50 miles from stores.
That would explain why they gambled on a rapid, light advance, hoping resistance would crumble quickly and they'd walk into Kyiv.
Now they are in for a very long, drawn out, slow slog.
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I have some difficulty in understanding the UAE's support for Putin
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1573996/Vladimir-Putin-news-Russia-UAE-protect-security-Ukraine-war-update
..... unless it's the increase in oil prices, or in support of the large number of Russian hookers in Dubai.
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Although they are in good company........
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/jeremy-corbyn-sides-with-russia-again-
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1574463/john-mcdonnel-news-labour-whip-latest-nato-russia-invasion
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A new low.......
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/world/children-arrested-protests-moscow-embassy-war-russia-ukraine-b985596.html
(https://static.standard.co.uk/2022/03/02/13/newFile-13.jpg?width=640&auto=webp&quality=50&crop=2299%3A3066%2Csmart)
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LoL. From The Express.
'Russia invading Croatia...' Labour's Diane Abbott in embarrassing Ukraine slip up
LABOUR's Diane Abbott made an embarrassing gaffe on Politics Live by confusing Ukraine with Croatia when discussing Russia's invasion.
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LoL. From The Express.
'Russia invading Croatia...' Labour's Diane Abbott in embarrassing Ukraine slip up
LABOUR's Diane Abbott made an embarrassing gaffe on Politics Live by confusing Ukraine with Croatia when discussing Russia's invasion.
And yet Boris Johnson said in parliament today that the UK had settled more refugees than any other country in Europe since 2016, Germany took more in 1 year than we did in 6. But yeah lap up the Diane Abbott story
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LoL. From The Express.
'Russia invading Croatia...' Labour's Diane Abbott in embarrassing Ukraine slip up
LABOUR's Diane Abbott made an embarrassing gaffe on Politics Live by confusing Ukraine with Croatia when discussing Russia's invasion.
And yet Boris Johnson said in parliament today that the UK had settled more refugees than any other country in Europe since 2016, Germany took more in 1 year than we did in 6. But yeah lap up the Diane Abbott story
But both stories are true, so well done for highlighting the Boris one.
But yeah, let’s not tell anything that you’d rather not hear.
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LoL. From The Express.
'Russia invading Croatia...' Labour's Diane Abbott in embarrassing Ukraine slip up
LABOUR's Diane Abbott made an embarrassing gaffe on Politics Live by confusing Ukraine with Croatia when discussing Russia's invasion.
Why have you written ‘Labour’s…’ in capital letters?
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You would have to hold Diane Abbott's hand to put her on the right numbered bus for the club trip to Bridlington.
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LoL. From The Express.
'Russia invading Croatia...' Labour's Diane Abbott in embarrassing Ukraine slip up
LABOUR's Diane Abbott made an embarrassing gaffe on Politics Live by confusing Ukraine with Croatia when discussing Russia's invasion.
Why have you written ‘Labour’s…’ in capital letters?
I didn’t, it was written like that in the article I copied and pasted.
You should take your query up with The Express.
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I have some difficulty in understanding the UAE's support for Putin
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1573996/Vladimir-Putin-news-Russia-UAE-protect-security-Ukraine-war-update
..... unless it's the increase in oil prices, or in support of the large number of Russian hookers in Dubai.
It's all about world power. It's about positioning themselves so their oil wealth buys power which will persist once the oil has gone.
There's been an axis of Russia, UAE and Saudi Arabia for years. Trump was up to his orange neck in it. Seth Abramson has been logging the connections for years.
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Fascinating how much bile Dianne Abbott brings out of certain people.
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Georgia now asking for immediate EU membership.
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Georgia now asking for immediate EU membership.
Meanwhile, Nicola Sturgeon will be boiling if they let Ukraine and Georgia in first!
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Belarus, Eritra, North Korea and Syria, what fine upstanding mates Russia has
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The Germans are considering burning more coal to reduce their reliance on Russian gas.
The European natural gas prices are spiking again. They are talking about more big hikes in energy bills in the UK next autumn on top of what is coming in April.
Should we consider cranking up our old coal fired powerstations during this very difficult period?
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Love this.
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The Germans are considering burning more coal to reduce their reliance on Russian gas.
The European natural gas prices are spiking again. They are talking about more big hikes in energy bills in the UK next autumn on top of what is coming in April.
Should we consider cranking up our old coal fired powerstations during this very difficult period?
No, not really. Our governments should find a method to use their reserves or levers to control the pricing within the market. But we shouldn't forget global warming which is a bigger threat than the current war.
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Another mildly amusing story on this very serious thread.
One of the papers, think it was the Mirror had a story of a Ukranian farmer who'd seen a group of Russian soldiers scarper, leaving behind a large vehicle. So he set fire to it.
It turned out to be a $120,000 missle system.
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The Germans are considering burning more coal to reduce their reliance on Russian gas.
The European natural gas prices are spiking again. They are talking about more big hikes in energy bills in the UK next autumn on top of what is coming in April.
Should we consider cranking up our old coal fired powerstations during this very difficult period?
No, not really. Our governments should find a method to use their reserves or levers to control the pricing within the market. But we shouldn't forget global warming which is a bigger threat than the current war.
I understand all that but they are predicting a £3,000 average household energy bill next winter. That's frightening.
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I have read the article on Russian logistics posted by BST,very interesting! I also looked at the land North of Kiev and hey you got the river Pripet, the famous Pripet marshes were a problem for the Germans in the last World war, now the mild wet Winter will have made vast areas of land between Kiev and Beliorussia turn into Quagmires, hence the Russians bunching up at least 2 Armoured divisions on that road, their Trucks are restricted to that Tarmac Road, plus the Russian Army is geared up for a very Short advance and then to hold ground and re supply. They were geared up for annexing the small Baltic states and grabbing a small piece of land in Eastern Poland then digging in for 'FAIT ACCOMPLI' .that Northern Force is struggling to re supply as it's a long way from Russia to the 'Front' from Russia via Beilo Russia. A Dozen Hellcat armed Drones attacking the head of the snake would really phish on Putins Strawberries. If I were Fanny Biden that's what I would be considering.Can't se it happening with all of the 'Wokes' running things.
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I wonder if the Americans have got some old Warthogs hanging around that they could donate?
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Four Russian fighter planes have violated Swedish airspace
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Fascinating how much bile Dianne Abbott brings out of certain people.
Fascinating how people forgive her mistakes but not those of others.
Expected of you though.
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Four Russian fighter planes have violated Swedish airspace
Filo, do you think Putin is hoping for a NATO reaction to that.
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Four Russian fighter planes have violated Swedish airspace
Filo, do you think Putin is hoping for a NATO reaction to that.
I’m no expert, far from it, but to me it looks like he’s testing the waters, see how Sweden react, if anything he is pushung Sweden and Finland toward NATO
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Four Russian fighter planes have violated Swedish airspace
Filo, do you think Putin is hoping for a NATO reaction to that.
I’m no expert, far from it, but to me it looks like he’s testing the waters, see how Sweden react, if anything he is pushung Sweden and Finland toward NATO
Yep, my thoughts too. He knows that countries will be reluctant to engage.
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I have read the article on Russian logistics posted by BST,very interesting! I also looked at the land North of Kiev and hey you got the river Pripet, the famous Pripet marshes were a problem for the Germans in the last World war, now the mild wet Winter will have made vast areas of land between Kiev and Beliorussia turn into Quagmires, hence the Russians bunching up at least 2 Armoured divisions on that road, their Trucks are restricted to that Tarmac Road, plus the Russian Army is geared up for a very Short advance and then to hold ground and re supply. They were geared up for annexing the small Baltic states and grabbing a small piece of land in Eastern Poland then digging in for 'FAIT ACCOMPLI' .that Northern Force is struggling to re supply as it's a long way from Russia to the 'Front' from Russia via Beilo Russia. A Dozen Hellcat armed Drones attacking the head of the snake would really phish on Putins Strawberries. If I were Fanny Biden that's what I would be considering.Can't se it happening with all of the 'Wokes' running things.
Kyiv. Kiev is the Russian name.
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Didn't take long for "Woke" to take on the meaning "tied up with issues that are too complex for me to even begin to comprehend, but which I know I don't like."
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Fascinating how much bile Dianne Abbott brings out of certain people.
Fascinating how people forgive her mistakes but not those of others.
Expected of you though.
Big difference between a mistake and an outright f**king lie.
Imagine being the guy that latches onto mistakes...
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Didn't take long for "Woke" to take on the meaning "tied up with issues that are too complex for me to even begin to comprehend, but which I know I don't like."
Billy wind your neck in you are typical of what is wrong with today's society!
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Sproty.
If Biden makes a mistake over this, we are looking at WWIII.
You are complaining that "woke" is stopping him taking that risk?
Jesus...
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Didn't take long for "Woke" to take on the meaning "tied up with issues that are too complex for me to even begin to comprehend, but which I know I don't like."
Billy wind your neck in you are typical of what is wrong with today's society!
Omg Sproty, why are you being so woke.
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Sproty.
If Biden makes a mistake over this, we are looking at WWIII.
You are complaining that "woke" is stopping him taking that risk?
Jesus...
Bettaris Box mate my attitude affects your attitude etc and the West has collectively Beeb sending that Idiot Putin the wrong messages!
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Sproty.
If Biden makes a mistake over this, we are looking at WWIII.
You are complaining that "woke" is stopping him taking that risk?
Jesus...
Bettaris Box mate my attitude affects your attitude etc and the West has collectively Beeb sending that Idiot Putin the wrong messages!
Aye - give us your money - you can do what you want.
Poison a defector in London. No problem. Spread novichok around Salisbury - would you like to buy this mansion? Thank you for the donation, fancy a game of tennis? Yes Vlad, I'll vote Brexit to try and split up the EU. What Russia Report - never heard of it.
But I blame Biden.
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An epic blunder by Belarusian leader Alexander Lukashenko has revealed Putin's military strategy in eastern Europe. Lukashenko's map appeared to show a planned Russian offensive on Moldova. Could this ex-Soviet state be Putin's next target?
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Genuine question. Does the fact that Putin knows that the West is sh*t scared of him make him more dangerous or less dangerous?
The West is being seen by some Ukrainians as simply standing by and doing nothing to help them. Are we doing the right thing?
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Starmer at PMQs exposed lots of holes in legislation to be brought into the house on Monday, let's hope that these amendments are accepted and it stops rich russian criminals liquidating their assets in the UK and spiriting the proceeds away to yet another criminal laundromat.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rwASG1DkwC0
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This link describes it better
''Igor Shuvalov: the former Russian deputy PM with an £11m flat in Whitehall''
It takes Nalvalny to expose it and the opposition leader to bring it to parliament's attention to force johnson to do something that should have been done years ago.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/mar/02/keir-starmer-calls-uk-blacklist-russian-crony-igor-shuvalov
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Genuine question. Does the fact that Putin knows that the West is sh*t scared of him make him more dangerous or less dangerous?
The West is being seen by some Ukrainians as simply standing by and doing nothing to help them. Are we doing the right thing?
Genuine answer: here's a story about a government in the west that helped give confidence to putin that it was all going swimmingly.
''Under Cameron, May and Johnson, Russia-linked donors were given access to senior ministers in exchange for cash. This culminated in the absurd spectacle of Cameron and Boris Johnson auctioning themselves off for a game of tennis with Lubov Chernukhin, the wife of a former minister to Putin.
Even after the Russian President’s assassins attempted to murder Sergei Skripal on the streets of Salisbury in 2018, the flow of cash continued.
Despite May’s promise of a “full and robust response” to the attack, donations to the Conservative Party from individuals linked to Russia actually increased in the years that followed. Just last week, The Times revealed that Chernukhin, who was also pictured alongside Theresa May and Liz Truss, had bought herself into a special “advisory board” of Conservative donors which meets regularly with the Prime Minister to discuss Government policy.
Johnson’s own connections to wealthy Russians have also been well documented.
In 2020, he overruled officials in order to hand a peerage to Evgeny Lebedev, who is the son of a Russian oligarch and former KGB agent. Evgeny Lebedev – whose newspaper the Evening Standard backed Johnson’s re-election campaign for London Mayor – repeatedly hosted Johnson at his Italian villa. The Conservative Party’s close ties to Russian influence led to Johnson repeatedly being photographed standing alongside suspected Russian agents''
https://bylinetimes.com/2022/02/24/boris-johnson-allowed-russian-interference-into-the-uk-as-putin-prepared-for-war/
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I always wondered what the people who said we shouldn't accept Jewish refugees in the 1930s looked like.
https://youtu.be/8VgIpAnWeiM
Where to even begin...
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Maybe putin felt safe, after all his henchmen were playing tennis with the mayor of london, especially as he was on the shag and not paying attention, what good luck it has been to have such a useful idiot in charge and then help get him promoted with financial support through his party?
John Le Carre' eat your heart out.
'‘It’s about bloody time’: UK finally moves to block Russia’s ‘dirty money’''
''Not only are super-mansions in London and the home counties a safe bet from an investment point of view, but the ability to disguise ownership via a labyrinthine network of shell companies offers a degree of anonymity to those who prefer their financial dealings to remain secret.
On top of that, the Companies House database – the repository for details of UK-registered businesses – has become almost a punchline to a pretty bad joke.
Information is often missing, incomplete or obviously fake. Directors have been registered in the name of Adolf Tooth Fairy Hitler and Judas Superadio Iskariot, without anyone batting an eyelid. Information can be hard to search for and the website crashes or times out on a regular basis''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/feb/28/its-about-bloody-time-uk-finally-moves-to-block-russias-dirty-money
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Former MI6 boss John Sawer explains the situation well to Oxford Students.
https://youtu.be/Yw5lzKVn3sc
His most significant point for me is that Putin should be allowed a way out of this. We must not make him the cornered rat, he might do that himself of course.
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What are you reading? He says 60% + of Russia's wealth is held outside Russia.
''Butler to the World: How Britain Helps the World's Worst People Launder Money, Commit Crimes, and Get Away with Anything
by Oliver Bullough
4.50 · Rating details · 2 ratings · 0 reviews
In his punchy follow-up to Moneyland, Oliver Bullough's Butler to the World unravels the dark secret of how Britain placed itself at the centre of the global offshore economy and at the service of the worst people in the world…''
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58725007-butler-to-the-world
Just listening to Butler being interviewed.
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SNP president condemned for ‘crass’ comparison of Ukraine and Scottish independence bid
Mike Russell says past need not dictate future, ‘whether that be rule from Moscow or the result of an eight-year-old referendum’
Mike Russell also alleged that 'dirty cash' from Russia had gone to the Tory party and been 'used against Scotland in the 2014 referendum' CREDIT: Andrew Cowan/Scottish Parliament/PA
The SNP's president has been accused of drawing "utterly crass" parallels between Ukraine's struggle to repel Vladimir Putin's invasion and Scottish nationalists' attempts to break away from the UK.
Mike Russell used a blog on the party's website to argue that the past need not dictate the future, "whether that be rule from Moscow or the result of an eight-year-old referendum".
The "Yes" campaign lost the 2014 vote by nearly 11 points, but Mr Russell, a former constitution secretary, suggested the Ukraine crisis bolstered the case for a re-run and said the "right of people to choose how they are governed and by whom is an absolute and universally applied".
He also alleged that "dirty cash" from Russia had gone to the Tory party and been "used against Scotland in the 2014 referendum" as well as helping win the Brexit vote.
Amid criticism that the UK Government is doing too little to accept Ukrainian refugees, he claimed Britain would have "achieved more, and moved more rapidly" against Russia had it still been an EU member state.
But British troops have provided training to 22,000 members of the Ukrainian armed forces since 2015 to help them prepare for a Russian invasion, and the UK was among the first countries to send weapons before the conflict started. The EU later made the same decision.
Mr Russell's claims also appeared to be undermined by an intelligence and security committee investigation last year, which found "credible" evidence that the Putin regime tried to help the nationalist rather than Unionist side in the 2014 referendum.
It cited commentary that the Kremlin's attempt to aid the break-up of the United Kingdom was "the first post-Soviet interference in a Western democratic election".
Mr Russell said the right of people to choose how they are governed cannot be "circumscribed by history – just because something was doesn't mean it will always continue to be so, whether that be rule from Moscow, or the result of an eight-year-old referendum."
In an apparent dig at Alex Salmond, who suspended his chat show on a Kremlin-funded TV station last week, Mr Russell said Russian money funded "disinformation in both mainstream and social media and even those who believed they were editorially independent were in fact often being used – wittingly or unwittingly – only as shields or smokescreens".
His intervention came the day after an SNP MSP was forced to apologise for making similar comparisons between Scotland and Ukraine.
Michelle Thomson responded to images of Volodymyr Zelensky, the Ukrainian president, signing an application for Ukraine to join the EU with a social media post stating: "Delighted for Ukraine. It just goes to show what political will can achieve. Remember this Scotland!"
Calling for Mr Russell to apologise, Willie Rennie, the former Scottish Liberal Democrat leader, said: "Likening the longevity of the 2014 referendum result in any way to rule from Moscow is one of the stupider things I have heard from a senior SNP figure.
"It is utterly crass to draw any parallels between what is going on in Ukraine to Scotland's situation, when people in Ukraine are fighting and dying to avoid falling under the yoke of the Kremlin.
"I am astounded that the president of the SNP, a long-standing politician, would seek to draw any parallels to the democratic decision of the people of Scotland."
Ms Sturgeon wants to hold another separation referendum by the end of 2023 and has set out plans to stage her own vote if Boris Johnson refuses to transfer the necessary legal powers and challenge the UK Government to try and block it in the courts.
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And there are other idiotic commentators around also..
https://malaysia.news.yahoo.com/cancelling-russian-grand-prix-made-162903076.html
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Just had a look at Adolf on Companies house, it’s someone having a Larf probably some Woke lefty students with a £100 to throw away, however it may cause the Govt to utilise the services of peeps like myself to root out and eradicate… for a substantial fee of course!
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Just had a look at Adolf on Companies house, it’s someone having a Larf probably some Woke lefty students with a £100 to throw away, however it may cause the Govt to utilise the services of peeps like myself to root out and eradicate… for a substantial fee of course!
You don't know what woke means. :laugh:
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And there are other idiotic commentators around also..
https://malaysia.news.yahoo.com/cancelling-russian-grand-prix-made-162903076.html
Ecclestone is deluded clearly.
Putin would probably have wanted to go to the GP. I can’t see it being staged in St Petersburg either next year. Every single sanction will make the Russian public sit up and consider the actions of their leader. Every single bit helps to push his own against him.
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I can only think that either the vast majority of Russians are not aware of whats happening, or don’t care, or there would be much larger demonstrations and unrest in Russian City’s
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“ Lavrov wants Russia and Ukraine to negotiate as equals
Sergei Lavrov has also said that Russia will sit down with Ukraine to negotiate, "but only on one condition that it has to be equal parties negotiating".
It is understood that Ukraine and Russia are due to pick up talks again, after last week's appeared to come to nothing.”
Get out of Ukraine then you f**king war monger
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Oh yes.... Putin's loyal doom mongering attack dog Lavrov...... what a despicable character. Definitely not someone that engenders trust, integrity or the slightest piece of sincerity....
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With questions being constantly raised about putin's sanity, it may be down to paranoia as the US have predicted his every move so far.
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Oh yes.... Putin's loyal doom mongering attack dog Lavrov...... what a despicable character. Definitely not someone that engenders trust, integrity or the slightest piece of sincerity....
Lavrov = Von Ribbentrop
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Anyone think that Putin is getting a bit paranoid...... and the tables even longer
(http://)
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Just had a look at Adolf on Companies house, it’s someone having a Larf probably some Woke lefty students with a £100 to throw away, however it may cause the Govt to utilise the services of peeps like myself to root out and eradicate… for a substantial fee of course!
You don't know what woke means. :laugh:
I did try explaining that to him last night that "Woke" now seems to mean "things that are too complicated for me to understand but that I don't like."
But he didn't seem to understand or like my post.
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Well done to the french. They have just seized Igor Sechins luxury Yacht in Marseille.which was making hurried attempts to prepare for setting sail by all accounts.
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Anyone think that Putin is getting a bit paranoid...... and the tables even longer
(http://)
I’ve read that he keeps his distance due to covid fears. Perhaps it’s now fear of being stabbed in the back. Literally. Pics of his military commanders sat near him recently have been likened to persons sat at a funeral , such was the grim expressions.
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Anyone know exactly how many of the London-based kleptocrats our Govt has taken action against so far?
How about...let's see...zero?
Who'da thought it? What with all these...words coming out of Govt mouths about how we are planning resolute action to hit them, yadda, yadda, yadda...
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There does seem to be a lot of talk. And not a lot of do.
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Former MI6 boss John Sawer explains the situation well to Oxford Students.
https://youtu.be/Yw5lzKVn3sc
His most significant point for me is that Putin should be allowed a way out of this. We must not make him the cornered rat, he might do that himself of course.
Thanks for that excellent link nr. John Sawer tells the same story about Putin cornering the rat that I’ve shared elsewhere & his conclusion that Putin must somehow be ‘allowed a way out’ is absolutely right because not to do so could lead Europe down a very dark path.
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Anyone know exactly how many of the London-based kleptocrats our Govt has taken action against so far?
How about...let's see...zero?
Who'da thought it? What with all these...words coming out of Govt mouths about how we are planning resolute action to hit them, yadda, yadda, yadda...
I suppose that there has to be a cast iron legal right to seize property etc.
If they tried it and were found to be doing so illegally then it would be worse than doing nothing.
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Genuine question. Does the fact that Putin knows that the West is sh*t scared of him make him more dangerous or less dangerous?
The West is being seen by some Ukrainians as simply standing by and doing nothing to help them. Are we doing the right thing?
That's a great question. I guess that book that Colin C mentioned might give a few clues.
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I can only think that either the vast majority of Russians are not aware of whats happening, or don’t care, or there would be much larger demonstrations and unrest in Russian City’s
Apparently all protests have to be sanctioned.
Even if sanctioned protests go ahead I read that peaceful protestors could find themselves with an eight year jail sentence and it a protest gets violent then the punishment would be fifteen years in jail.
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One less oligarch to worry about.
Ukrainian born Russian tycoon Michael Watford has been found hanging in his garage in his £18 million pad in Surrey.
Suicide, or something else ?
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Kremlin now considering imposing martial law on its own citizens.
-
Anyone know exactly how many of the London-based kleptocrats our Govt has taken action against so far?
How about...let's see...zero?
Who'da thought it? What with all these...words coming out of Govt mouths about how we are planning resolute action to hit them, yadda, yadda, yadda...
I suppose that there has to be a cast iron legal right to seize property etc.
If they tried it and were found to be doing so illegally then it would be worse than doing nothing.
So why did Johnson say at PMQ's yesterday then that we were leading the world on imposing sanctions on oligarchs? Are you suggesting he was lying...
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Kremlin now considering imposing martial law on its own citizens.
Putin isn't afraid of the west. Was he is afraid of is his own people turning against him.
-
Anyone know exactly how many of the London-based kleptocrats our Govt has taken action against so far?
How about...let's see...zero?
Who'da thought it? What with all these...words coming out of Govt mouths about how we are planning resolute action to hit them, yadda, yadda, yadda...
I suppose that there has to be a cast iron legal right to seize property etc.
If they tried it and were found to be doing so illegally then it would be worse than doing nothing.
So why did Johnson say at PMQ's yesterday then that we were leading the world on imposing sanctions on oligarchs? Are you suggesting he was lying...
Wilts, I don’t watch PMQs, so i had no idea what was said, therefore I’m not saying that he was lying …. Or anything else either.
He could still be right i suppose, not all sanctions are going to be put in place at once are they?
My post was simply something that I thought of.
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Anyone know exactly how many of the London-based kleptocrats our Govt has taken action against so far?
How about...let's see...zero?
Who'da thought it? What with all these...words coming out of Govt mouths about how we are planning resolute action to hit them, yadda, yadda, yadda...
I suppose that there has to be a cast iron legal right to seize property etc.
If they tried it and were found to be doing so illegally then it would be worse than doing nothing.
So why did Johnson say at PMQ's yesterday then that we were leading the world on imposing sanctions on oligarchs? Are you suggesting he was lying...
"Leading" in that they (The Uk Gov.) started the powder puff sanctions from a european point of view. Purely because we are no longer in the EU and didn't need to ask all member states to approve. Ultimately the sanctions that then came from Europe were and are far more hard hitting. Where as ours are laughable. However in BoJos point is in some ways true that they lead the first sanctions in Europe even if those sanctions were limited at best. He is a snake, Slippery and without shame.
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Listening to Dr Anna Bradshaw on the Law society EU committee. She says that any talk of lawyers being at fault for sanctions being brought have zero basis. There is no legal precedence for a nation not to approve sanctions, especially one of its own soverign nation (Unlike the EU that needs all states to agree). So we have a possible benefit of Brexit (Finally), but we are not using it because the Tory party is a wash with Dirty Russian money. There is no other reason. Im now so ashamed of this Government, I no longer consider them to be fit for any purpose.
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No politician is fit for any purpose
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There was solicitor on R4 this morning. He has a number of kleptocrats on his list of clients. He said he's amazed that no action has been taken to freeze their assets, and that he's advising them how to get assets out of the country or otherwise protected.
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No politician is fit for any purpose
I was wondering how long it was going to be before that one came up.
So presumably Zelensky is as bad as the rest of them?
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What are you reading? He says 60% + of Russia's wealth is held outside Russia.
''Butler to the World: How Britain Helps the World's Worst People Launder Money, Commit Crimes, and Get Away with Anything
by Oliver Bullough
4.50 · Rating details · 2 ratings · 0 reviews
In his punchy follow-up to Moneyland, Oliver Bullough's Butler to the World unravels the dark secret of how Britain placed itself at the centre of the global offshore economy and at the service of the worst people in the world…''
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/58725007-butler-to-the-world
Just listening to Butler being interviewed.
https://www.xe.com/currencycharts/?from=GBP&to=RUB&view=10Y
10 years of the exchange rate is the longest i can find
we got this judgement yesterday
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60595266
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No politician is fit for any purpose
I was wondering how long it was going to be before that one came up.
So presumably Zelensky is as bad as the rest of them?
I believe what i said was clear
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There was solicitor on R4 this morning. He has a number of kleptocrats on his list of clients. He said he's amazed that no action has been taken to freeze their assets, and that he's advising them how to get assets out of the country or otherwise protected.
He was on LBC as well. Stated the same. He was almost beyond bemused by the Governments light handed moves.
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No politician is fit for any purpose
I was wondering how long it was going to be before that one came up.
So presumably Zelensky is as bad as the rest of them?
I believe what i said was clear
On the contrary. Since "fit for purpose" is an entirely nebulous term, what you said couldn't be less clear. But since you have refused to draw a distinction between the characteristics of politicians before, I assume you think they are all as bad as each other.
Which is a strange opinion to hold to, this of all weeks.
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No politician is fit for any purpose
I was wondering how long it was going to be before that one came up.
So presumably Zelensky is as bad as the rest of them?
I believe what i said was clear
On the contrary. Since "fit for purpose" is an entirely nebulous term, what you said couldn't be less clear. But since you have refused to draw a distinction between the characteristics of politicians before, I assume you think they are all as bad as each other.
Which is a strange opinion to hold to, this of all weeks.
I know this wasnt aimed at me, but as i first mentioned it . In my Industry Fit for Purpose is a legal contractual term used to determine that something at its very least is serving its basic purpose and nothing more. Our Government in my eyes, is no longer serving even that basic requirement.
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Just had a look at Adolf on Companies house, it’s someone having a Larf probably some Woke lefty students with a £100 to throw away, however it may cause the Govt to utilise the services of peeps like myself to root out and eradicate… for a substantial fee of course!
You don't know what woke means. :laugh:
I did try explaining that to him last night that "Woke" now seems to mean "things that are too complicated for me to understand but that I don't like."
But he didn't seem to understand or like my post.
That may be your definition of what it means,it isn’t mine!
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Delay is the essence of the UK sanctions response.
This is deliberate, to allow the Tory sponsors time to move their assets to a safe space.
Protect your backers by giving them the flex to adapt.
If the UK were serious, all off-shore tax haven operations would have been locked down..they are not, as we speak.
Of course, many other tax avoiders would be caught in that net, as well as Russian money.
Some of them sit on the Government benches!
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Just had a look at Adolf on Companies house, it’s someone having a Larf probably some Woke lefty students with a £100 to throw away, however it may cause the Govt to utilise the services of peeps like myself to root out and eradicate… for a substantial fee of course!
You don't know what woke means. :laugh:
I did try explaining that to him last night that "Woke" now seems to mean "things that are too complicated for me to understand but that I don't like."
But he didn't seem to understand or like my post.
That may be your definition of what it means,it isn’t mine!
That was never in doubt, but thanks for the clarification.
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No politician is fit for any purpose
Would you include these politicians in that sweeping statement?
Winston Churchill
Nelson Mandela
Nye Bevan
Mahatma Gandhi
Abraham Lincoln
Franklin Roosevelt
Xi Ping-Lui
William Beverage
Clement Atlee
William Haig
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No politician is fit for any purpose
I was wondering how long it was going to be before that one came up.
So presumably Zelensky is as bad as the rest of them?
I believe what i said was clear
On the contrary. Since "fit for purpose" is an entirely nebulous term, what you said couldn't be less clear. But since you have refused to draw a distinction between the characteristics of politicians before, I assume you think they are all as bad as each other.
Which is a strange opinion to hold to, this of all weeks.
I know this wasnt aimed at me, but as i first mentioned it . In my Industry Fit for Purpose is a legal contractual term used to determine that something at its very least is serving its basic purpose and nothing more. Our Government in my eyes, is no longer serving even that basic requirement.
But it depends on how you define the purpose of politics.
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IKEA closing all 17 of its stores in Russia...
Hitting them in the soft furnishings...... although the colour scheme probably doesn't help.
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Usmanovs (links to Everton fc) $600million dinghy has been seized by the Germans now.
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Oh yes.... Putin's loyal doom mongering attack dog Lavrov...... what a despicable character. Definitely not someone that engenders trust, integrity or the slightest piece of sincerity....
But, but Ms Trust looked him in the eyes when he told her they weren't going to invade, and she believed him
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IKEA closing all 17 of its stores in Russia...
Hitting them in the soft furnishings...... although the colour scheme probably doesn't help.
That’ll teach them to dare fly into Swedish air space.
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No politician is fit for any purpose
How to make every single word you now utter to be of no value whatsoever.
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F1 has completely terminated its contract to race in Russia. Period. So thats st Petersburg off the calendar too. And forever more by the sounds of it.
Apparently Putin was closely associated with the Russian GP, he was key in establishing it there in 2014.
Kick in the balls vlad?
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Usmanovs (links to Everton fc) $600million dinghy has been seized by the Germans now.
you may recall U$manov tried to take control of Arsenal for years before selling out -would prefer Arsenal to have had the problems
apparently all the superyachts have anchored in the Maldives who have no extradition treaty with the US they are hardly going to get fitted out and repaired there.
the phrase "All dressed up and nowhere to go comes to mind"
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Ukraine interactive map here if anyone interested...
https://liveuamap.com/
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Hungary refuses to let weapons for Ukraine through it's Borders
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No politician is fit for any purpose
Would you include these politicians in that sweeping statement?
Winston Churchill
Nelson Mandela
Nye Bevan
Mahatma Gandhi
Abraham Lincoln
Franklin Roosevelt
Xi Ping-Lui
William Beverage
Clement Atlee
William Haig
What I said is clear
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No politician is fit for any purpose
How to make every single word you now utter to be of no value whatsoever.
And your opinion means what exactly to me?
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Russia is going to appeal the footy ban. Good luck with that.
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EU pressing the UK, waking up to the dematerialisation of Russian assets;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/03/eu-urges-uk-to-act-faster-before-russian-assets-are-spirited-away
It could not be related to this list of benefactors, could it:
https://twitter.com/ciabaudo/status/1499263773152100353
No...perish the thought!
Mandelson lying doggo as well, got to be a reason!
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Thinking on the implications of the very poor showing of the Russian military. I'm not thinking of the situation in Ukraine - I cannot see any outcome that isn't grim for them. Either Putin steps up the intensity, which means many more deaths, or there is a very, very long drawn out conflict.
I'm thinking of the implications for other Russian aggression.
It's clear that without massively upping their game, they would have absolutely no chance of successfully invading a NATO country in the way that they have invaded Ukraine. The resistance would be an order of magnitude stronger. So, bizarrely, unless Putin is genuinely insane, I'm wonder if the Ukraine invasion might actually make WWIII less, not more likely.
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I don’t think there can genuinely be any questions about his sanity now Billy?
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I fundamentally disagree Ldr.
You can make a catastrophic mistake without being insane. I think the most likely story is that, insulated from people who dare contradict him, he'd convinced himself that Ukraine would roll over when the tanks went in. Just like Georgia did 14 years ago.
If that's the case, he's got his fingers very badly burned. And if he is sane, he'll take that lesson.
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Ivory tower syndrome?
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Johnson Lets Russian Oligarchs ‘Get Away With It’ As Sanctions Reprieve to Last for Months
Johnson denies donation from senior figure at Russia’s second-largest bank was behind decision to hand it a one-month sanctions reprieve.
Full story here
https://twitter.com/BylineTimes/status/1499386719199764480
The Tory Party (not all of them, just Johnson, his cronies and their backers) are the overseas arm of Putin's mafia and became personally wealthy through it. If you don't see that now - you never will.
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Can it even be denied Wilts now?
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I’ve just seen the tv news and am distraught for those poor people who have had their village decimated by Russian missiles.
It breaks my heart to what has happened to them.
No strategic military positions there so why the f**k has Russia targeted them.
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I’ve just seen the tv news and am distraught for those poor people who have had their village decimated by Russian missiles.
It breaks my heart to what has happened to them.
No strategic military positions there so why the f**k has Russia targeted them.
Not only breaking my heart too Hound but I'm starting to feel real anger and frustration .
The West need to raise their game in my opinion and do way way more than they are .
Absolutely sick and tired of every fecker running scared of this tyrant tw@t.
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Heard that the opposition parties in Russia are calling for all Russians to stage a mass anti war protest in their respective cities this Sunday.
They're hoping for numbers that will overwhelm the Police and leave Russia media unable to sweep it under the carpet.
Will be interesting to see how many are brave enough to turn out.
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Quote from: Filo on Today at 09:34:48 am
I can only think that either the vast majority of Russians are not aware of whats happening, or don’t care, or there would be much larger demonstrations and unrest in Russian City’s
Quote by hound earlier today:
Apparently all protests have to be sanctioned.
Even if sanctioned protests go ahead I read that peaceful protestors could find themselves with an eight year jail sentence and it a protest gets violent then the punishment would be fifteen years in jail.
The protestors would have to be very brave DBR given the penalties they may have to deal with.
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Heard that the opposition parties in Russia are calling for all Russians to stage a mass anti war protest in their respective cities this Sunday.
They're hoping for numbers that will overwhelm the Police and leave Russia media unable to sweep it under the carpet.
Will be interesting to see how many are brave enough to turn out.
It all depends on how many they can turn out I guess.
Even Putin's police can't arrest a million people on a demo. And if they take up position outside the Kremlin...
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Can it even be denied Wilts now?
Been saying it for a long time.
Johnson's response to the Intelligence Committee's public presentation of the Russia Report was bone chilling. The committee said they couldnt understand why Johnson hadn't authorised the Security Services to search for firm evidence that Putin was affecting our election results. Johnson said he wouldn't because he hadn't seen any evidence that it was happening.
That was a UK PM being told by security and intelligence advisers that there was a prima facie case that an enemy power was undermining our democracy. And the PM just brushing it aside.
Add that to the millions of pounds that Putin's kleptocrats have given the Tories and it stunk to high heaven.
Now add the refusal to sanction those kleptocrats and the whole picture is there. If you want to see it.
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AND this is happening in an ‘open democratic country’ with a free press!
Other nations must look at us as Bozo plays ‘Churchill’ & think…’you’re having a laugh’!
-
Plus there's Johnson's numerous lost weekends at the Tuscan palace of the son of an ex-KGB colonel. And Johnson's thanks being to raise him to the Lord's as Baron Lebedev of Siberia. It would be too obvious a plot for a trash spy novel.
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And Lebedev has a pet wolf/dog called Boris. The sort of pet that comes calling when whistled, but can do its job and frighten off anyone who might intend to get too close to you.
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/E0dUCkoWEAAoJGL.jpg)
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And here's boris the dog after playing fetch ........
knackered and dishevelled ''Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs'' looked liked he's slept in his suit''
''A trip Boris Johnson made to Italy for a party held by a billionaire socialite ended with the then foreign secretary at an airport “looking like he had slept in his clothes”, struggling to walk in a straight line and telling other passengers he had had a heavy night, the Guardian has been told''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/26/boris-johnson-security-evgeny-lebedev-perugia-party
no security, no questions, noone home
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Ukraine and Europe's biggest nuclear power plant is currently on fire after "continuous shelling".
-
And here's boris the dog after playing fetch ........
knackered and dishevelled ''Secretary of State for Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs'' looked liked he's slept in his suit''
''A trip Boris Johnson made to Italy for a party held by a billionaire socialite ended with the then foreign secretary at an airport “looking like he had slept in his clothes”, struggling to walk in a straight line and telling other passengers he had had a heavy night, the Guardian has been told''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/26/boris-johnson-security-evgeny-lebedev-perugia-party
no security, no questions, noone home
That story just beggars belief. How the f**k can that man be in charge of the country? He's a multiple security risk on steroids.
If he applied for a senior civil service job that required Developed Vetting, he'd get ripped to bits in the interview.
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Ukraine and Europe's biggest nuclear power plant is currently on fire after "continuous shelling".
It’s getting to the point where NATO has to decide wether to stick or twist, in my opinion this is Mad Vlad trying to provoke a reaction, so he can justify using Nukes, someone inside Russia needs to take him out sharpish
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What about the people of the Ukraine standing between the russian forces and the target, the nuclear plant. Impossibly brave.
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''The UK has sanctioned two new billionaire allies of Vladimir Putin, amid growing pressure to speed up the crackdown on Russian oligarchs, with delays blamed on legal issues and poor preparation''
''Whitehall insiders have warned that legal change is needed or the government’s full list could take as long as six months and blamed a lack of preparatory work in the run-up to Russia’s invasion of Ukraine'
The government didn't appear to have any problems creating a hostile environment against its own citizens that were not criminals.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/03/uk-imposes-sanctions-on-russian-billionaire-and-former-deputy-pm
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What about the people of the Ukraine standing between the russian forces and the target, the nuclear plant. Impossibly brave.
Putin will know that everyone will sh*t themselves with his forces attacking the plants but, he's just after control of them rather than to destroy them.
Once again, both Russia and Ukraine might use this as a stick to try and draw NATO into the conflict.
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It will be interesting how history judges this government and the major players when all the facts are finally in the public domain.
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Look at this from 2017.
https://mobile.twitter.com/carolecadwalla/status/1499699489313107968
Anyone believe Johnson to be speaking truthfully here? Remember, he was Foreign Secretary at the time. Nominally in charge of MI6. So any credible evidence of threats from hostile foreign powers ended up on his desk.
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Watch that video.
Look at his face.
Then remind yourself that he is our PM. As we stand watching Russia mutilate another European country.
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A couple of days ago certain posters jumped in and suggested that we should not politicise this particular thread but it seems like people like bst and sydneyrover are not prepared to do that.
BST apparently doesn’t read my posts so perhaps someone else could draw his attention to the request.
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I was just thinking the same. The thread is about the Ukraine conflict, not an opportunity to score political points from past or present.
Please keep on topic.
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A couple of days ago certain posters jumped in and suggested that we should not politicise this particular thread but it seems like people like bst and sydneyrover are not prepared to do that.
BST apparently doesn’t read my posts so perhaps someone else could draw his attention to the request.
Can’t help you there Hound - Billy pretends to not read my posts either.
But this is a new low from Billy, even for him.
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I was just thinking the same. The thread is about the Ukraine conflict, not an opportunity to score political points from past or present.
Please keep on topic.
What's not on topic DBR if not the events that have led up to this point and negligence of a government that have given putin and his criminal regime the distinct impression that he and his enablers and their money are welcome in the UK and that the UK would stand by and watch as they did when they walked into the Crimea?
-
Watch that video.
Look at his face.
Then remind yourself that he is our PM. As we stand watching Russia mutilate another European country.
We’ve had our orders. Better do as he says.
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Him and Syd both read mine, the numties.
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Him and Syd both read mine, the numties.
Nothing to say about johnson and the protection racket he's been running for russian thugs selby?
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No Syd, I can remember in the late sixties when an MP was asked in my presence how much the job was worth.
His answer was I would be disappointed at less than £120k a year, I lost interest about that time mate, and stopped my voluntary work for the Labour Party.
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No Syd, I can remember in the late sixties when an MP was asked in my presence how much the job was worth.
His answer was I would be disappointed at less than £120k a year, I lost interest about that time mate, and stopped my voluntary work for the Labour Party.
well your mates have certainly upped the ante since then wouldn't you say, johnson and his cronies have become the byword for self indulgence and looking the other way.
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A new law has been passed by Putin by the way, anyone spreading untruth's about the Russian armed forces can be imprisoned for 15 years as from today.
The lad doesn't like the truth being told. and it might just have an effect on the size of any protests.
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If you don't think that most MP's on all sides are not in the game for what they can get out of it Syd, your a bigger idiot than I think you are.
I have had dealings with a number over the years, none from any party have ever impressed me, and local planning and councils are even more into being in the game for themselves, with the help of MP's in many cases.
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If you don't think that most MP's on all sides are not in the game for what they can get out of it Syd, your a bigger idiot than I think you are.
I have had dealings with a number over the years, none from any party have ever impressed me, and local planning and councils are even more into being in the game for themselves, with the help of MP's in many cases.
Actually I don't think that at all selby, I have worked closely with MPs over the past 6 years and found that they are diligent and hard working which is why they have been getting my support. You must attract the wrong sort of people, you certainly have some cockeyed ideas when it comes to politics.
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Back on track and sorry for diverging from the subject guys your right. The restrictions reported on Al Jazeera news on the Russian general public are indeed draconian, and shows just how Putin is adept at using the system to nullify news broadcasts and threatens dissenters.
In the modern world it is more difficult to supress truth, Putin and his entourage are not living in the real world as it stands now, and in time will suffer the consequences. The worst thing a leader of a country can do is make the general populations normal life worse for their own ends, it may take time but they will turn on him, he is living on borrowed time.
The only question now is when and how he goes, peacefully or pushed.
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I was just thinking the same. The thread is about the Ukraine conflict, not an opportunity to score political points from past or present.
Please keep on topic.
It's not about political points. It is absolutely connected to the current Russian aggression.
As I've said times many, there are folk in here who would have criticised Churchill for replacing Chamberlain in 1940.
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If you don't think that most MP's on all sides are not in the game for what they can get out of it Syd, your a bigger idiot than I think you are.
I have had dealings with a number over the years, none from any party have ever impressed me, and local planning and councils are even more into being in the game for themselves, with the help of MP's in many cases.
This in spades
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No Syd, I can remember in the late sixties when an MP was asked in my presence how much the job was worth.
His answer was I would be disappointed at less than £120k a year, I lost interest about that time mate, and stopped my voluntary work for the Labour Party.
well your mates have certainly upped the ante since then wouldn't you say, johnson and his cronies have become the byword for self indulgence and looking the other way.
So this is supposedly on the topic of Ukraine.
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If you don't think that most MP's on all sides are not in the game for what they can get out of it Syd, your a bigger idiot than I think you are.
I have had dealings with a number over the years, none from any party have ever impressed me, and local planning and councils are even more into being in the game for themselves, with the help of MP's in many cases.
So this is supposedly on the topic of Ukraine.
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If you don't think that most MP's on all sides are not in the game for what they can get out of it Syd, your a bigger idiot than I think you are.
I have had dealings with a number over the years, none from any party have ever impressed me, and local planning and councils are even more into being in the game for themselves, with the help of MP's in many cases.
This in spades
I do sometimes think we deserve to live in a world where people like Putin rise to the top.
You haven't got a f**king clue...
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If you don't think that most MP's on all sides are not in the game for what they can get out of it Syd, your a bigger idiot than I think you are.
I have had dealings with a number over the years, none from any party have ever impressed me, and local planning and councils are even more into being in the game for themselves, with the help of MP's in many cases.
This in spades
I do sometimes think we deserve to live in a world where people like Putin rise to the top.
You haven't got a f**king clue...
No we don't Billy because even though you and I disagree on many things we only differ on how good is achieved , that's all it is .
Essentially we want the same things but differ on how that's achieved .
It's shyte at the moment but you and I are united on this thing .
Let's not forget that .
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Back on track and sorry for diverging from the subject guys your right. The restrictions reported on Al Jazeera news on the Russian general public are indeed draconian, and shows just how Putin is adept at using the system to nullify news broadcasts and threatens dissenters.
In the modern world it is more difficult to supress truth, Putin and his entourage are not living in the real world as it stands now, and in time will suffer the consequences. The worst thing a leader of a country can do is make the general populations normal life worse for their own ends, it may take time but they will turn on him, he is living on borrowed time.
The only question now is when and how he goes, peacefully or pushed.
I think I said this in my first post on this topic. Russian leaders dont get deposed by outside forces - they get ousted by their own people.
Make life hard for the people that matter, the oligarchs who keep him in power and owe their money and lifestyles to him. When they see they will be better off without him - then things will change.
Which is why some people on here are angry with Johnson because he appears to be doing exactly the opposite and making life easy for them. And we all know why.
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Guided tour of the streets of London, paved with Russian gold:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1499766468610863106
Anyone still think Vlad's man Bozo is going to deal with this?
Or any other members of the political establishment, Sir to Lord!
Corrupt to the core, every sinew.
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Guided tour of the streets of London, paved with Russian gold:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1499766468610863106
Anyone still think Vlad's man Bozo is going to deal with this?
Or any other members of the political establishment, Sir to Lord!
Corrupt to the core, every sinew.
UK foreign secretary Liz Truss posted a statement to Twitter following an announcement today that the UK will be bolstering sanctions against Russia.
From foreign secretary Liz Truss:
We have shown Putin that his invasion has consequences. In addition to one of the world’s biggest sanctions packages against Russia, we are ratcheting up pressure by introducing emergency legislation to go faster and harder on Putin’s enablers.
They will have nowhere to hide.
Compared to other countries and the EU, the UK has sanctioned the second-lowest number of entities since the Russian invasion, according to a visual by Bloomberg:
we live in a post truth world, it's all around us, say it often enough ...................
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Looks better if you put the chart up Syd
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thanks Wilts, have never got the hang of posting graphics
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If this situation was my decision and I make no apologies given hundreds of Ukraine citizens are losing their lives right now as I post this .
As far as I'm concerned the Russian people can be on the brink of starvation for all I care to be honest and it's high time they were .
I do not buy in to the liberal soft shyte routine .
Absolutely every sanction or assets seized from that country or it's associate's needs to be put in to action .
How much hardball do the West want to take ?
This is war , feck the rule book , the enemy aren't interested in the rules of engagement so why should we .
If we can't understandably have boots on the ground then unfortunately the Russian people will have to take what we can do .
Feck this shyte , if your starving then take to the streets then .
It's come to that .
Feck em .
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f**kin horrible Kitson.
-
f**kin horrible Kitson.
You can get cream for that Nudga..
-
f**kin horrible Kitson.
You can get cream for that Nudga..
I'm just sick of Kitsons like him virtue signalling about Ukraine citizens going through what they are but then wanting ordinary Russian civilians to starve.
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If you don't think that most MP's on all sides are not in the game for what they can get out of it Syd, your a bigger idiot than I think you are.
I have had dealings with a number over the years, none from any party have ever impressed me, and local planning and councils are even more into being in the game for themselves, with the help of MP's in many cases.
This in spades
I do sometimes think we deserve to live in a world where people like Putin rise to the top.
You haven't got a f**king clue...
And your head is in the sand my friend
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f**kin horrible Kitson.
You can get cream for that Nudga..
I'm just sick of Kitsons like him virtue signalling about Ukraine citizens going through what they are but then wanting ordinary Russian civilians to starve.
What the feck is the planet you exist on ?
This is warfare .
Let me take you back to the second world war when we dropped every bomb we could on Dresden and Hamburg and killed thousands of probably 60% of em that didn't vote for Hitler .
What do you think this is ?
Wake up fella with all due respect .
My life , your life and my grandkids life hang by a thread because of this Tyrant fecker .
My grandkids ain't going down and if that's at the detriment of the Russian people then so be it .
Feck em .
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f**kin horrible Kitson.
You can get cream for that Nudga..
I'm just sick of Kitsons like him virtue signalling about Ukraine citizens going through what they are but then wanting ordinary Russian civilians to starve.
What the feck is the planet you exist on ?
This is warfare .
Let me take you back to the second world war when we dropped every bomb we could on Dresden and Hamburg and killed thousands of probably 60% of em that didn't vote for Hitler .
What do you think this is ?
Wake up fella with all due respect .
My life , your life and my grandkids life hang by a thread because of this Tyrant fecker .
My grandkids ain't going down and if that's at the detriment of the Russian people then so be it .
Feck em .
I agree with you to a point the problem is many millions or tens of millions of Russians have done nothing wrong, they can't speak out thou due to fear of death or going to prison, but saying that what other options are there to try and stop putin
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... worse still as it looks like EU / NATO / "the West" can't join in to crush Putin (or won't) because both sides have the capacity to blow the planet to bits
They HAVE it seems watched War Games and thankfully know where it ends
I think that Putin will crush Ukraine and move to Moldova as the above won't stop him
Worse NATO say attack one of us you attack us all but WOULD WE if they marched into Poland or Lithuania or Slovakia or would they let him get on with it rather than risk obliteration
I have no idea but just throw it out there. 33 pages gone and apologies if you have already done this to death
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f**kin horrible Kitson.
You can get cream for that Nudga..
I'm just sick of Kitsons like him virtue signalling about Ukraine citizens going through what they are but then wanting ordinary Russian civilians to starve.
What the feck is the planet you exist on ?
This is warfare .
Let me take you back to the second world war when we dropped every bomb we could on Dresden and Hamburg and killed thousands of probably 60% of em that didn't vote for Hitler .
What do you think this is ?
Wake up fella with all due respect .
My life , your life and my grandkids life hang by a thread because of this Tyrant fecker .
My grandkids ain't going down and if that's at the detriment of the Russian people then so be it .
Feck em .
You've gone from "GET BOOSTED, SAVE LIVES" to "f**k THE RUSSIANS, LET THEM STARVE" in a matter of weeks.
Like I said, virtue signalling Kitson.
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Russia have called a "ceasefire" to allow citizens to escape two cities under seige. They're then bombing the escape routes out of those cities.
This is absolutely vile. We've said "never again" since the atrocities of WW2 and Nazi Germany yet here we are.
-
f**kin horrible Kitson.
You can get cream for that Nudga..
I'm just sick of Kitsons like him virtue signalling about Ukraine citizens going through what they are but then wanting ordinary Russian civilians to starve.
What the feck is the planet you exist on ?
This is warfare .
Let me take you back to the second world war when we dropped every bomb we could on Dresden and Hamburg and killed thousands of probably 60% of em that didn't vote for Hitler .
What do you think this is ?
Wake up fella with all due respect .
My life , your life and my grandkids life hang by a thread because of this Tyrant fecker .
My grandkids ain't going down and if that's at the detriment of the Russian people then so be it .
Feck em .
You've gone from "GET BOOSTED, SAVE LIVES" to "f**k THE RUSSIANS, LET THEM STARVE" in a matter of weeks.
Like I said, virtue signalling Kitson.
I'd suggest if you'd put what remains of your wife or kids in a body bag or had to flee your own country leaving everything behind and not knowing if you'd ever return you may see it differently .
In warfare very often bad things have to be done to achieve good things .
It is what it is and there can be no weaknesses .
When Thatcher gave the order to sink The Belgrano she did it to save the lives of our forces .
The fact it was outside the exclusion zone was neither here nor there because our forces lives were worth more than the Argentinean's .
This is what warfare reduces you to and the decisions you have to make .
They have to be made in order to make the world a safer place .
There is no getting around this if tyrants are to be brought down and you have to be just as ruthless as they are .
Tyrants take their people down with them with their actions , it's unfortunate .
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Looks better if you put the chart up Syd
But...but...but....Boris said we were leading the world!! :silly:
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Looks better if you put the chart up Syd
But...but...but....Boris said we were leading the world!! :silly:
It's actually far worse than the headline numbers.
Of the 16 oligarchs that we have sanctioned, only 2 are even temporarily based in the UK.
Precisely zero have ever given money to the Tory party.
It's happening folks, right in front of your eyes. A UK Govt bought out by an enemy power. In broad daylight.
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Who'da thought this?
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/australia-news/2022/mar/02/australias-anti-vaccine-groups-switch-focus-to-putin-praise-and-ukraine-conspiracies
Anti-vax groups morph into pro-Russis groups after the invasion.
Must be a coincidence.
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f**kin horrible Kitson.
You can get cream for that Nudga..
I'm just sick of Kitsons like him virtue signalling about Ukraine citizens going through what they are but then wanting ordinary Russian civilians to starve.
What the feck is the planet you exist on ?
This is warfare .
Let me take you back to the second world war when we dropped every bomb we could on Dresden and Hamburg and killed thousands of probably 60% of em that didn't vote for Hitler .
What do you think this is ?
Wake up fella with all due respect .
My life , your life and my grandkids life hang by a thread because of this Tyrant fecker .
My grandkids ain't going down and if that's at the detriment of the Russian people then so be it .
Feck em .
You've gone from "GET BOOSTED, SAVE LIVES" to "f**k THE RUSSIANS, LET THEM STARVE" in a matter of weeks.
Like I said, virtue signalling Kitson.
I'd suggest if you'd put what remains of your wife or kids in a body bag or had to flee your own country leaving everything behind and not knowing if you'd ever return you may see it differently .
In warfare very often bad things have to be done to achieve good things .
It is what it is and there can be no weaknesses .
When Thatcher gave the order to sink The Belgrano she did it to save the lives of our forces .
The fact it was outside the exclusion zone was neither here nor there because our forces lives were worth more than the Argentinean's .
This is what warfare reduces you to and the decisions you have to make .
They have to be made in order to make the world a safer place .
There is no getting around this if tyrants are to be brought down and you have to be just as ruthless as they are .
Tyrants take their people down with them with their actions , it's unfortunate .
If you're that bothered, why don't you join up to the foreign legion and get stuck in with the other volunteers and kill some Russians rather than spouting your poison on a rival teams football forum.
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Nudga
Tyke is letting off steam in response to the horror that Putin is unleashing.
You're criticising him for momentarily saying that Russia deserves some sort of equal karma in the future. But unless I'm mistaken, I don't see anywhere where you have criticised Russia ACTUALLY killing peaceful neighbours, right now.
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f**kin horrible Kitson.
You can get cream for that Nudga..
I'm just sick of Kitsons like him virtue signalling about Ukraine citizens going through what they are but then wanting ordinary Russian civilians to starve.
What the feck is the planet you exist on ?
This is warfare .
Let me take you back to the second world war when we dropped every bomb we could on Dresden and Hamburg and killed thousands of probably 60% of em that didn't vote for Hitler .
What do you think this is ?
Wake up fella with all due respect .
My life , your life and my grandkids life hang by a thread because of this Tyrant fecker .
My grandkids ain't going down and if that's at the detriment of the Russian people then so be it .
Feck em .
You've gone from "GET BOOSTED, SAVE LIVES" to "f**k THE RUSSIANS, LET THEM STARVE" in a matter of weeks.
Like I said, virtue signalling Kitson.
I'd suggest if you'd put what remains of your wife or kids in a body bag or had to flee your own country leaving everything behind and not knowing if you'd ever return you may see it differently .
In warfare very often bad things have to be done to achieve good things .
It is what it is and there can be no weaknesses .
When Thatcher gave the order to sink The Belgrano she did it to save the lives of our forces .
The fact it was outside the exclusion zone was neither here nor there because our forces lives were worth more than the Argentinean's .
This is what warfare reduces you to and the decisions you have to make .
They have to be made in order to make the world a safer place .
There is no getting around this if tyrants are to be brought down and you have to be just as ruthless as they are .
Tyrants take their people down with them with their actions , it's unfortunate .
If you're that bothered, why don't you join up to the foreign legion and get stuck in with the other volunteers and kill some Russians rather than spouting your poison on a rival teams football forum.
Why don't you fly to Russia and start a foodbank ?
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Russia have called a "ceasefire" to allow citizens to escape two cities under seige. They're then bombing the escape routes out of those cities.
This is absolutely vile. We've said "never again" since the atrocities of WW2 and Nazi Germany yet here we are.
And Russian State TV is telling its audience nothing of that shelling, but saying Russia offered a ceasefire to allow civilians to escape but Ukrainian authorities have prevented anyone from leaving.
If there really is a vengeful God, I trust he will prepare an eternity of torture for those ruling Russia and lying to their people on an industrial scale.
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Good on Unite.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60631735
Our Govt might be doing next to f**k all to hit Russia, so it's up to ordinary people to do what they can.
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https://twitter.com/bopanc/status/1500042313174765571?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1500042313174765571%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2Flive%2F2022%2Fmar%2F05%2Frussia-ukraine-war-latest-news-nato-gives-green-light-to-bombing-with-lack-of-no-fly-zone-says-zelenskiy
Big big protests in occupied Ukraine cities and scroll down for a massive one in TBilisi.
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I just cannot see a sensible end game for Putin here.
The very best case scenario is that his forces now quickly over run the cities and replace the Govt with a Moscow-friendly one.
But then there'll be year of guerilla warfare and tens of thousands of Russian troops will be needed to suppress it. There'll be thousands upon thousands of Russian deaths. It will cost a fortune. And Russia is going to face endless economic warfare from the West.
It doesn't make any sense at all.
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Russia will now be indebted to China and will be dancing to it's tune for a long, long time. Totally misread by putin and agreed where would a sensible path come from in all this.
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I just cannot see a sensible end game for Putin here.
The very best case scenario is that his forces now quickly over run the cities and replace the Govt with a Moscow-friendly one.
But then there'll be year of guerilla warfare and tens of thousands of Russian troops will be needed to suppress it. There'll be thousands upon thousands of Russian deaths. It will cost a fortune. And Russia is going to face endless economic warfare from the West.
It doesn't make any sense at all.
You can conquer a country and install a puppet government but conquering the people well that's another matter altogether .
The Russians haven't got the capability to control a nation and it's people of this size .
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This is a brilliant analysis.
Sets out 30 years of Russian politico-military thinking, and concludes that Putin has misunderstood why he won previous conflicts, leading him to an existential mistake.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ruth_deyermond/status/1499862127322046465
One of the wonders of the internet is that it brings superb expert analysis like this straight to your phone. If you can wash off the tonnes of utter shite and deliberate misinformation that stops you getting to this in the first place
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Good on Unite.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-60631735
Our Govt might be doing next to f**k all to hit Russia, so it's up to ordinary people to do what they can.
I understand the computer hackers group " Anonymous " are working on bringing down Russian computer systems that are needed to such as run their train services and other infrastructure .
Every little helps .
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Christ there are some brave individuals in Russia.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ggatehouse/status/1499892495513268225
Putin has spent 20 years isolating them and picking them off one by one. Anyone who ever looked like being a threat. I fear for this woman's safety.
And Gabriel Gatehouse's too.
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I just cannot see a sensible end game for Putin here.
The very best case scenario is that his forces now quickly over run the cities and replace the Govt with a Moscow-friendly one.
But then there'll be year of guerilla warfare and tens of thousands of Russian troops will be needed to suppress it. There'll be thousands upon thousands of Russian deaths. It will cost a fortune. And Russia is going to face endless economic warfare from the West.
It doesn't make any sense at all.
There might have been a chance to back out of this earlier on but now, he's gone ALL IN.
It's not at all clear how this can end now. Very dangerous times.
It seems he intends to occupy the place and I fear he'll have to be absolutely ruthless but can he afford to do this?
-
Marco Rubio who sits on the US defence council has just announced that Russia can only sustain this level of invasion financially for just over another week .
He warns that this is a very dangerous situation because if he withdraws or even scales down his aggression he will lose face .
You can obviously draw your own conclusions on how that may play out to protect his ego .
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Nudga
Tyke is letting off steam in response to the horror that Putin is unleashing.
You're criticising him for momentarily saying that Russia deserves some sort of equal karma in the future. But unless I'm mistaken, I don't see anywhere where you have criticised Russia ACTUALLY killing peaceful neighbours, right now.
f**k me, didn't take you long to jump in and start trolling me on this thread.
I honestly thought you of all people could see where I was coming from on this, but no, it's OK for him to blow off steam and yet I'm in the wrong because I didn't precurse my statement with condemnation of what Putin is doing like that was me giving full support to that bloated Kitson.
No, I feel sorry for the normal people of both sides, I don't want normal Russians to starve and don't want normal Ukrainians to get blown to bits.
Is that ok for you?
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Looks better if you put the chart up Syd
If this is the Bloomberg chart it would seem as it’s wrong.
From the FCDO Twitter feed
Bloomberg tweet is incorrect, they’ve subsequently apologised and taken down the graphs. UK has sanctioned 228 individuals, entities & subsidiaries since invasion.
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Guided tour of the streets of London, paved with Russian gold:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1499766468610863106
Anyone still think Vlad's man Bozo is going to deal with this?
Or any other members of the political establishment, Sir to Lord!
Corrupt to the core, every sinew.
UK foreign secretary Liz Truss posted a statement to Twitter following an announcement today that the UK will be bolstering sanctions against Russia.
From foreign secretary Liz Truss:
We have shown Putin that his invasion has consequences. In addition to one of the world’s biggest sanctions packages against Russia, we are ratcheting up pressure by introducing emergency legislation to go faster and harder on Putin’s enablers.
They will have nowhere to hide.
Compared to other countries and the EU, the UK has sanctioned the second-lowest number of entities since the Russian invasion, according to a visual by Bloomberg:
we live in a post truth world, it's all around us, say it often enough ...................
No they haven’t, you and Bloomberg are wrong and that chart has been removed and Bloomberg have apologised
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Something else to think about
Not sure of the correctness of this info
-
Guided tour of the streets of London, paved with Russian gold:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1499766468610863106
Anyone still think Vlad's man Bozo is going to deal with this?
Or any other members of the political establishment, Sir to Lord!
Corrupt to the core, every sinew.
UK foreign secretary Liz Truss posted a statement to Twitter following an announcement today that the UK will be bolstering sanctions against Russia.
From foreign secretary Liz Truss:
We have shown Putin that his invasion has consequences. In addition to one of the world’s biggest sanctions packages against Russia, we are ratcheting up pressure by introducing emergency legislation to go faster and harder on Putin’s enablers.
They will have nowhere to hide.
Compared to other countries and the EU, the UK has sanctioned the second-lowest number of entities since the Russian invasion, according to a visual by Bloomberg:
we live in a post truth world, it's all around us, say it often enough ...................
No they haven’t, you and Bloomberg are wrong and that chart has been removed and Bloomberg have apologised
Dont believe all you read eh.
-
Guided tour of the streets of London, paved with Russian gold:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1499766468610863106
Anyone still think Vlad's man Bozo is going to deal with this?
Or any other members of the political establishment, Sir to Lord!
Corrupt to the core, every sinew.
UK foreign secretary Liz Truss posted a statement to Twitter following an announcement today that the UK will be bolstering sanctions against Russia.
From foreign secretary Liz Truss:
We have shown Putin that his invasion has consequences. In addition to one of the world’s biggest sanctions packages against Russia, we are ratcheting up pressure by introducing emergency legislation to go faster and harder on Putin’s enablers.
They will have nowhere to hide.
Compared to other countries and the EU, the UK has sanctioned the second-lowest number of entities since the Russian invasion, according to a visual by Bloomberg:
we live in a post truth world, it's all around us, say it often enough ...................
No they haven’t, you and Bloomberg are wrong and that chart has been removed and Bloomberg have apologised
Dont believe all you read eh.
Especially on Twitter
-
Guided tour of the streets of London, paved with Russian gold:
https://twitter.com/i/status/1499766468610863106
Anyone still think Vlad's man Bozo is going to deal with this?
Or any other members of the political establishment, Sir to Lord!
Corrupt to the core, every sinew.
UK foreign secretary Liz Truss posted a statement to Twitter following an announcement today that the UK will be bolstering sanctions against Russia.
From foreign secretary Liz Truss:
We have shown Putin that his invasion has consequences. In addition to one of the world’s biggest sanctions packages against Russia, we are ratcheting up pressure by introducing emergency legislation to go faster and harder on Putin’s enablers.
They will have nowhere to hide.
Compared to other countries and the EU, the UK has sanctioned the second-lowest number of entities since the Russian invasion, according to a visual by Bloomberg:
we live in a post truth world, it's all around us, say it often enough ...................
No they haven’t, you and Bloomberg are wrong and that chart has been removed and Bloomberg have apologised
Dont believe all you read eh.
Especially on Twitter
Twitter is gospel to some people on here.
-
Russia’s foreign ministry has vowed to impose tough measures against British interests in Russia in retaliation to what it labelled London’s “sanctions hysteria” following Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine, Reuters reports.
It said that Britain had clearly chosen to move towards an open confrontation with Russia, leaving Moscow with no choice but to take as-yet-unspecified measures in response, which “will undoubtedly undermine British interests in Russia”.
-
Sorry lads, I'm lost here.
I did not mention Bloomberg in the post I made.
It is a video about Russian money in London, and off shore tax havens.
Are you talking to Sydney?
-
Yes especially the second bold statement and Wilts who posted a picture
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Putin has just said that he regards sanctions as a declaration of war; and we all know what he threatened if we declared war on him.
Get ready, folks, it looks like it's coming.
-
Putin has just said that he regards sanctions as a declaration of war; and we all know what he threatened if we declared war on him.
Get ready, folks, it looks like it's coming.
Other than nukes is there anything to worry about? If we did go to army v army war then NATO would obliterate Russia.
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Putin has just said that he regards sanctions as a declaration of war; and we all know what he threatened if we declared war on him.
Get ready, folks, it looks like it's coming.
Other than nukes is there anything to worry about? If we did go to army v army war then NATO would obliterate Russia.
Exactly, DO. That's why Putin has threatened nuclear war. It's to do with the "cornered rat" concept that he keeps alluding to.
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Christ there are some brave individuals in Russia.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ggatehouse/status/1499892495513268225
Putin has spent 20 years isolating them and picking them off one by one. Anyone who ever looked like being a threat. I fear for this woman's safety.
And Gabriel Gatehouse's too.
Neat analysis, though does it assume Putin is in this with the sole aim of annexing all of the Ukraine? From the beginning it seemed likely Putin was chancing his arm. Step by step he's gaining. There's a point at which he is likely to negotiate with the aim of gaining that land bridge to the Crimea, pmus the two eastern states, maybe other chunks. Most of this being justified by leaving Ukraine weakened, and gaining back lost Russian lands. Plus the proviso that Ukraine doesn't join NATO or the EU.
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SS, WOULD HIS GENERALS ALLOW THAT TO HAPPEN.
EKNOW HOW THINGS WOULD GO AND SO DO THEY.
WOULD THEY WANT TO KILL THEIR OWN FAMILY.
Edit, sorry about the capitals, i just can't be bothered to retype that.
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Something else to think about
Not sure of the correctness of this info
The UK sanctions dont kick in for 30 days - and how many Russian banks are there iin the EU to actually sanction?
https://twitter.com/business/status/1499699700085280771
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Yes especially the second bold statement and Wilts who posted a picture
I posted the graph from Sydney's link. If other people have more up to date and reliable information they are welcome to post it too.
-
Christ there are some brave individuals in Russia.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ggatehouse/status/1499892495513268225
Putin has spent 20 years isolating them and picking them off one by one. Anyone who ever looked like being a threat. I fear for this woman's safety.
And Gabriel Gatehouse's too.
Neat analysis, though does it assume Putin is in this with the sole aim of annexing all of the Ukraine? From the beginning it seemed likely Putin was chancing his arm. Step by step he's gaining. There's a point at which he is likely to negotiate with the aim of gaining that land bridge to the Crimea, pmus the two eastern states, maybe other chunks. Most of this being justified by leaving Ukraine weakened, and gaining back lost Russian lands. Plus the proviso that Ukraine doesn't join NATO or the EU.
Putin's rhetoric about NATO and the West as a threat to Russia just doesn't wash with me and his apologists such as Galloway and Farage .
The West have done so much business with Putin it's actually embarrassing .
How on God's earth is that aggression ? .
-
Looks better if you put the chart up Syd
If this is the Bloomberg chart it would seem as it’s wrong.
From the FCDO Twitter feed
Bloomberg tweet is incorrect, they’ve subsequently apologised and taken down the graphs. UK has sanctioned 228 individuals, entities & subsidiaries since invasion.
Is the FCDO correct?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/60591547
I have scrolled back through Bloomberg and I can't find that apology. I think the chart was in a piece on sanctions they did which is behind a paywall. Have you got a link to the apology?
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Putin has just said that he regards sanctions as a declaration of war; and we all know what he threatened if we declared war on him.
Get ready, folks, it looks like it's coming.
He said 'akin' to a declaration of war.
He also went on to say he has no intention of declaring martial law. That would only come into force in the event of war. So I think it's another 'back off' threat.
Intervene in my invasion? - back off it will mean war.
No fly zone?- Back off it will mean war.
We're going on special, high, ultimate nuclear alert - back off I really mean, it will mean war.
Sweden and Finland join NATO? - back off it will mean war.
Sanctions? - back off it will mean war.
So it's open to interpretation of the meaning of the word 'akin'. At every step he's threatening nukes because that's the hand he holds. Let me do as I please with Ukraine or I take us all to kingdom come. He's the Russian soldier negotiating with a pair of hand grenades in his hands.
-
Posted on the @FCDOGovUK Twitter feed 8 hours ago
Bloomberg tweet is incorrect, they’ve subsequently apologised and taken down the graphs. UK has sanctioned 228 individuals, entities & subsidiaries since invasion.
There is no link to the apology
-
In a new blow to the Oligarchs, Prada are shutting up shop in Russia.
-
Posted on the @FCDOGovUK Twitter feed 8 hours ago
Bloomberg tweet is incorrect, they’ve subsequently apologised and taken down the graphs. UK has sanctioned 228 individuals, entities & subsidiaries since invasion.
There is no link to the apology
Nor is there one to 228 individuals, entities and subsidiaries being sanctioned. And many of the actual ones that have its just notice of a sanction to apply in a months time.
-
A guide to how Putin's hide and spend their money in London;
https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1499766468610863106
Apologies if this has been posted previously - and if you dont believe what you read on twitter
-
Try these
https://twitter.com/FCDOGovUK/status/1500096229509898242
https://mobile.twitter.com/FCDOGovUK/status/1500050345501863940
-
Posted on the @FCDOGovUK Twitter feed 8 hours ago
Bloomberg tweet is incorrect, they’ve subsequently apologised and taken down the graphs. UK has sanctioned 228 individuals, entities & subsidiaries since invasion.
There is no link to the apology
Nor is there one to 228 individuals, entities and subsidiaries being sanctioned. And many of the actual ones that have its just notice of a sanction to apply in a months time.
on a technical programme i heard them say "cancelling" (the present buzz word) banks or parties from Swift cannot happen instantaneously and requires a month due to the technicalities.
Although paypal deals with much smaller considerations It appears yours truly could convert money into Russian "rubble" (as opposed to the rubble the Russians are causing in Ukraine) if i was stupid enough
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Ukraine negotiators notice difference in tone and demands of Russians during last round of peace talks
'They are starting to realize the real price of war only now. And now we are starting to have constructive negotiations'
https://twitter.com/markmackinnon/status/1500146915610185732
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Posted on the @FCDOGovUK Twitter feed 8 hours ago
Bloomberg tweet is incorrect, they’ve subsequently apologised and taken down the graphs. UK has sanctioned 228 individuals, entities & subsidiaries since invasion.
There is no link to the apology
Nor is there one to 228 individuals, entities and subsidiaries being sanctioned. And many of the actual ones that have its just notice of a sanction to apply in a months time.
on a technical programme i heard them say "cancelling" (the present buzz word) banks or parties from Swift cannot happen instantaneously and requires a month due to the technicalities.
Although paypal deals with much smaller considerations It appears yours truly could convert money into Russian "rubble" (as opposed to the rubble the Russians are causing in Ukraine) if i was stupid enough
Yes I have heard that too CLH - mostly from government sources.
I have also heard several lawyers say that it is not true and powers to seize assest immediately are contained in 2018 Money Laundering Act.
If only there was some way of knowing why a government funded by Russian oligarchs and led by a PM who partied and enobled them was slow in seizing their money
https://twitter.com/PeterStefanovi2/status/1500114616508108800
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At what stage are we damned if we do and damned if we don't in entering directly in to this conflict .
Putin has already threatened us with our support for the Ukrainians and sanctions .
I fully appreciate my nature isn't best placed for situations like this because I was always brought up to take bullies on and punch them in the nose , not run scared of em .
Just basically putting it out there to those who are probably more naturally level headed than me .
So how much do we accept before we go in and sort this little rocket coward out who hides in a cave good and proper ?
-
Fortunately Tyke the school bullies you're parents brought you up to stand up against weren't armed to the teeth with intercontinental nuclear missiles.
The answer is militarily the West is hamstrung unless we wish to endanger a nuclear winter. Severe economic sanctions which hit both Russia and Putin and his chums directly is the answer.
This to discourage him, and others, from carrying out such heinous acts in the future.
And to make it crystal clear that if Russian troops put a boot in NATO countries our military is ready to respond.
-
The price to be paid for a nuclear war free Europe will be the freedom of the people of Ukraine and the integrity of that sovereign nation.
44 million people and a single country versus many many more tens of millions of people and the safety of dozens of other countries.
It will be an internal war fought for decades while ever Ukrainians walk this earth .
Only until such time as the World is rid of Putin will this change. Which won’t be long with any luck
-
At what stage are we damned if we do and damned if we don't in entering directly in to this conflict .
Putin has already threatened us with our support for the Ukrainians and sanctions .
I fully appreciate my nature isn't best placed for situations like this because I was always brought up to take bullies on and punch them in the nose , not run scared of em .
Just basically putting it out there to those who are probably more naturally level headed than me .
So how much do we accept before we go in and sort this little rocket coward out who hides in a cave good and proper ?
I listened to Any Questions last night and this question came up.
And basically the panel could not or would not answer. All understood and rightly feared the implication of nuclear conflict.
The situation is, assured mutual destruction should prevent conflict but the hanging questions are.. Is Putin mentally stable? Or does Putin just not care and is prepared actually to take the ultimate gamble that the West dare not retaliate?
Putin has to be sure we would retaliate but does he believe it?
And your question is, do we dare call his bluff?
This game of Russian roulette is too high stakes for me. I think we have to remain strong but not give him the excuse to push the button. He's an old man and I think we need to find a way to put this off until he's gone.
Ultimately there is no longer a big ideological difference between east and west. Putin is not a communist. He's a businessman but a businessman beyond the law. A gangster. Russia needs a leader who can see this war is very bad for business.
Another analogy that struck home with me was that we have to understand we live in a kind of paradise brought about by wealth and democracy.
Most of the world does not. It lives in a world of power. Might is right. That is Putins world. Again this is the world of the gangster and the warlord. It's ancient, brutal, pitiless and animal. We have to understand this.
-
Try these
https://twitter.com/FCDOGovUK/status/1500096229509898242
https://mobile.twitter.com/FCDOGovUK/status/1500050345501863940
Apologies if anything I quoted that was incorrect, I mistook johnson for an aging hooker playing tennis for money and returning from Italy looking like he had been shagged.
-
It's the most stark good v evil contest in my lifetime and extremely difficult for me to accept and obviously I'm not alone in that .
The people of this country who have so far donated £85m to the Ukrainian crisis warms my soul whilst our government actually shames us .
I need to see Putin swinging from a rope to really satisfy my form of justice .
I could easily turn off sky news and not read anything and not get so wound up about it .
Trouble is I ain't made that way .
Let's hope in time revenge is indeed a dish best served cold .
-
Visa and mastercard suspend operations in russia, it's glacially slow but the noose is tightening.
-
66k Ukrainians based oversees have returned to their country to defend it according to what I've read tonight .
Wow , absolute wow .
I have no words that can give the Ukrainians enough plaudits .
Absolute inspiration .
-
I'm not sure that Ukraine will come out of this as victors but Ukrainians will come out of it as heroes.
-
I'm not sure that Ukraine will come out of this as victors but Ukrainians will come out of it as heroes.
Putin ain't coming out of this as victorious either .
-
Hopefully, someone will kill the bas**rd.
-
i have just been checking what Russian Art is coming up at the major auction houses (it's hot at the moment - "what isn't faked" )
https://www.sothebys.com/en/departments/russian-art
the above currentlythinks it's having an on line auction next month
Type: auction
Easter Feast
4–14 APRIL 2022 | 2:00 PM BST | LONDON
Just like "ivory" is no go we need to make anything and everything with Russian Provenance "no go" at these auction houses
Major Auction Houses accept bitcoin etc in payment so at present they can circumnavigate the present rules
-
''Ukrainians have taken their resistance online through increasingly creative means in an effort to inform Russians of the destruction inflicted upon their country.
In light of Russia blocking multiple social media channels and independent media, one way that Ukrainians are trying to reach the Russian people is through writing unique Google reviews of popular Russian cafes and restaurants''
''Google And TripAdvisor Disable Restaurant Reviews In Russia After They're Flooded Following Orders From Anonymous''
Had a look myself and couldn't open the reviews section.
-
Here's how to help
'' .................. Another option is donating to the Come Back Alive (Povernys Zhyvym), one of the most accountable and trustworthy charities working for the military in Ukraine since 2014. The charity has been providing the military with auxiliary equipment, specialized software, drones, personal body protection, training, and other supplies ever since the foundation’s inception''
https://kyivindependent.com/national/heres-how-to-support-ukrainian-military/
''War with Russia has come to Ukraine, the Shield of Europe. As we defend the world from tyranny, it’s now or never to show your support for freedom and democracy in Ukraine and the world''
https://www.comebackalive.in.ua/
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''Labour leader Keir Starmer said he was “very concerned” about reports surrounding the appointment of media mogul Lord Evgeny Lebedev to the House of Lords.
The Sunday Times reported [paywall] British intelligence officials withdrew their assessment that giving a peerage to Lord Lebedev posed a national security risk after Boris Johnson intervened.
Starmer told the BBC’s Sunday Morning programme:
I’m very concerned about that story, because it goes to the heart of national security and there’s at least the suggestion that the government and the prime minister were warned that there was a national security risk in this particular appointment.
I think, in the circumstances, what the appropriate thing is for the Intelligence and Security Committee, which is a cross-party committee in Parliament that can have access to confidential material - I think this case should be referred to that committee so they can look into this story.
This allegation - which is very serious because, of course, it’s a matter of national security - I hope the Government will answer it today''
-
Try these
https://twitter.com/FCDOGovUK/status/1500096229509898242
https://mobile.twitter.com/FCDOGovUK/status/1500050345501863940
Apologies if anything I quoted that was incorrect, I mistook johnson for an aging hooker playing tennis for money and returning from Italy looking like he had been shagged.
Syd, you can call Boris anything you like, I really don’t give a toss, I might even agree with some of the descriptions that you use, all I was doing was correcting information you put on this thread that was incorrect.
-
Try these
https://twitter.com/FCDOGovUK/status/1500096229509898242
https://mobile.twitter.com/FCDOGovUK/status/1500050345501863940
Apologies if anything I quoted that was incorrect, I mistook johnson for an aging hooker playing tennis for money and returning from Italy looking like he had been shagged.
Syd, you can call Boris anything you like, I really don’t give a toss, I might even agree with some of the descriptions that you use, all I was doing was correcting information you put on this thread that was incorrect.
The confusion seems to be between individuals and "entities".
It is absolutely true that our Govt has:
Only sanctioned 16 individuals
Only 2 of which ever spend significant time in the UK.
Neither of whom have ever donated to the Tory party.
-
Try these
https://twitter.com/FCDOGovUK/status/1500096229509898242
https://mobile.twitter.com/FCDOGovUK/status/1500050345501863940
Apologies if anything I quoted that was incorrect, I mistook johnson for an aging hooker playing tennis for money and returning from Italy looking like he had been shagged.
Syd, you can call Boris anything you like, I really don’t give a toss, I might even agree with some of the descriptions that you use, all I was doing was correcting information you put on this thread that was incorrect.
Yes my reply does suggest you are a fan of him and his government, but you do rush to support this government, unless of course you're just doing it for balance.
-
Try these
https://twitter.com/FCDOGovUK/status/1500096229509898242
https://mobile.twitter.com/FCDOGovUK/status/1500050345501863940
Apologies if anything I quoted that was incorrect, I mistook johnson for an aging hooker playing tennis for money and returning from Italy looking like he had been shagged.
Syd, you can call Boris anything you like, I really don’t give a toss, I might even agree with some of the descriptions that you use, all I was doing was correcting information you put on this thread that was incorrect.
Yes my reply does suggest you are a fan of him and his government, but you do rush to support this government, unless of course you're just doing it for balance.
Syd this isn’t the first time you’ve been corrected for posting incorrect information, all I’m doing is pointing out when you have. As for being a fan of this government, you would again be incorrect
-
That's good to know gloster, I've never claimed to be perfect but so many expect me to be just that.
-
That's good to know gloster, I've never claimed to be perfect but so many expect me to be just that.
People would prefer you to check that what you post is actually correct before you jump in and post it
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If I post something from a major usually reliable source I expect it to be correct and looking at when it was produced it pretty much was, my other grave error of course was the curtain fiasco and I did hold my hands up, but as you must remember well the matter under discussion was johnson and him breaking the law to which he been totally dishonest about and misled parliament so under the circumstances .........................
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That's good to know gloster, I've never claimed to be perfect but so many expect me to be just that.
People would prefer you to check that what you post is actually correct before you jump in and post it
Given that you uncritically posted tweets on this matter from the FCO, you might want to go and have a look at the source of their figures.
https://t.co/t7qq0siQg5
Have a gander at how few of those entities have been sanctioned this year.
The overwhelming majority are ones from the 2014 invasion.
Hint: For each entry, look at the "Listed On:" date.
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''Russian oligarchs suspected of having links to Vladimir Putin could have their UK assets seized even before the British authorities have completed formal steps to impose sanctions, under far-reaching plans tabled for debate in parliament on Monday.
The move – put forward in an amendment to the economic crime bill by former Tory cabinet minister David Davis and backed by a cross-party group of MPs – would, if passed, amount to the toughest action yet to clamp down on illicit Russian cash in the UK.
On Friday the government made a number of moves to toughen the UK sanctions regime after widespread criticism that it has been slower to act than the EU and the US.
Undermining Boris Johnson’s claim that the UK has been leading the way on sanctions, ministers agreed that changes will be made to the economic crime bill to allow the UK to impose sanctions on any individual who has already been targeted by the EU or US''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/06/mps-seeking-fast-track-freeze-on-oligarchs-assets-before-formal-sanctions
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''Russian oligarchs suspected of having links to Vladimir Putin could have their UK assets seized even before the British authorities have completed formal steps to impose sanctions, under far-reaching plans tabled for debate in parliament on Monday.
The move – put forward in an amendment to the economic crime bill by former Tory cabinet minister David Davis and backed by a cross-party group of MPs – would, if passed, amount to the toughest action yet to clamp down on illicit Russian cash in the UK.
On Friday the government made a number of moves to toughen the UK sanctions regime after widespread criticism that it has been slower to act than the EU and the US.
Undermining Boris Johnson’s claim that the UK has been leading the way on sanctions, ministers agreed that changes will be made to the economic crime bill to allow the UK to impose sanctions on any individual who has already been targeted by the EU or US''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/06/mps-seeking-fast-track-freeze-on-oligarchs-assets-before-formal-sanctions
Given the seriousness of this conflict and it's tentacles reaching our political system then why aren't Parliament sitting at the weekend .
Does this thing stop on a Friday afternoon and start again on Monday morning perhaps ?
Every day is vital , every hour is vital in these circumstances .
The bloody thing should have gone through last fecking weekend never mind this .
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That's good to know gloster, I've never claimed to be perfect but so many expect me to be just that.
People would prefer you to check that what you post is actually correct before you jump in and post it
And that's a fair enough comment. In an age of disinformation its important to be as accurate as possible.
Which is why it is disappointing that it is impossible to find out exactly how many people/entities have been sanctioned. If Bloomberg can't find out then we are unlikely too. Anyone is free to make up there own mind up why this is.
What is abundantly clear is that it is not enough. The UK has laundered Putin's money for years. We are the source of the problem. Your bar chart showed that.
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“ Putin signs new law to seize his own officials' money
Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a law allowing funds to be seized from the bank accounts of officials if the sum of the deposits exceeded their declared incomes over three years and was shown to be illegal, state television said on Sunday.”
Turning on his own, it’s not going to end well for him I suspect
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BBC reporting from Russian sources that 3500 people arrested for demonstrating against the 'war'. Must have been a good turnout given the fear that Putin spread with the new law handing out 15 year sentences for spreading 'fake' news.
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Brave, brave, brave folk.
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We've known for years Putin's Russia was Orwellian in insisting that lies were truth.
Now it seems they are going full on Thought Police.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KevinRothrock/status/1500458582902460420
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“ Putin signs new law to seize his own officials' money
Russian President Vladimir Putin signed a law allowing funds to be seized from the bank accounts of officials if the sum of the deposits exceeded their declared incomes over three years and was shown to be illegal, state television said on Sunday.”
Turning on his own, it’s not going to end well for him I suspect
That means he is running out of money to keep the war going. Interesting.
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Russian special police are apparently stopping anyone out near significant sites asking to see their mobile phones. Anyone who refuses? Arrested.
Putin is very aware and frightened of popular dissent. I don't think he can stop the flow of information into the cities. These days it's like trying to stop the flow of water, it's always going to rain.
I've been trying to work out just why he has commited so heavily to this war. The best explanation I can find is Ukraine produces something like 12% of the worlds grain. Everything counts in large amounts. I think he wants that additional economic power.
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If/when he shells Odessa it will not only be a crime against humanity, it will be a crime against culture too.
With each incremental step he is getting closer in infamy to Adolf Hitler.
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1.5m refugees have left Ukraine.
How many visas do you think have been issued to allow refugees into the UK?
How about 50? One for every 30,000 refugees.
If you don't get disgusted at your own Govt for this, I'm struging to imagine what you wouldn't "meh" to.
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''Russian oligarchs suspected of having links to Vladimir Putin could have their UK assets seized even before the British authorities have completed formal steps to impose sanctions, under far-reaching plans tabled for debate in parliament on Monday.
The move – put forward in an amendment to the economic crime bill by former Tory cabinet minister David Davis and backed by a cross-party group of MPs – would, if passed, amount to the toughest action yet to clamp down on illicit Russian cash in the UK.
On Friday the government made a number of moves to toughen the UK sanctions regime after widespread criticism that it has been slower to act than the EU and the US.
Undermining Boris Johnson’s claim that the UK has been leading the way on sanctions, ministers agreed that changes will be made to the economic crime bill to allow the UK to impose sanctions on any individual who has already been targeted by the EU or US''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/06/mps-seeking-fast-track-freeze-on-oligarchs-assets-before-formal-sanctions
Excellent news.
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1.5m refugees have left Ukraine.
How many visas do you think have been issued to allow refugees into the UK?
How about 50? One for every 30,000 refugees.
If you don't get disgusted at your own Govt for this, I'm struging to imagine what you wouldn't "meh" to.
https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-invasion-extra-100-000-people-will-be-able-to-seek-sanctuary-in-uk-priti-patel-announces-12554193
But don’t let facts get in the way of BST doing his usual misleading people to make a political attack
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I should add I don’t know why you do it Billy, this government is despicable enough for you to attack legitimately
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I'm not sure what you're getting at Ldr. So I'll spell it out in f**king big letters.
There is a humanitarian disaster occuring NOW! Our government HAS GIVEN 50 visas.
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Whilst you lot go all political again there's a war on!
BST, are you forcing Ukrainian refugees to come here against their will? They have a choice of where they want to go and you can understand why the majority want to be nearer their own country and their loved ones, praying they can go back ASAP.
Meanwhile, first vids of protests in Russia now coming out.
https://youtu.be/fa8xPVRR2l4
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Whilst you lot go all political again there's a war on!
BST, are you forcing Ukrainian refugees to come here against their will? They have a choice of where they want to go and you can understand why the majority want to be nearer their own country and their loved ones, praying they can go back ASAP.
Meanwhile, first vids of protests in Russia now coming out.
https://youtu.be/fa8xPVRR2l4
I'm sorry Baz but this is b*llocks.
There are many people in the UK with links to Ukraine who want to open their homes to Ukrainian refugees.
But they are being prevented by officious rules being enforced by this government.
I voted for Brexit, one reason was because I wanted our government to have control of the borders. That does not mean I want the government to always say no at the border. I want them to decide.
In this case I want them to decide to allow Ukrainian refugees in. As I want them to honour our commitment to Hong Kong.
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Of course I'm not "forcing all Ukrainians to come here." What I'm saying is that the EU is allowing refugees to settle wherever on the continent is most appropriate. Without visas. Without applications.
We are making it far, far more difficult. And we have so far accepted 50 people out of 1.5m refugees. And there are multiple stories of us having turned people away at the border. Including one 74 year old widow whose daughter is in London, who was told at Paris airport that she wouldn't be allowed into the UK, but would have to stay in France, where she knew no-one and spoke not a word of the language.
There are stories of refugees making it to Calais, only to find there is no visa office there so they cannot travel to meet up with UK based family.
It is all so unnecessary, but so typically, nastily ungenerous of this Home Secretary, whose family was given refuge in this country when they were chucked out of Uganda 50 years back.
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I'm not sure what you're getting at Ldr. So I'll spell it out in f**king big letters.
There is a humanitarian disaster occuring NOW! Our government HAS GIVEN 50 visas.
And I’ll spell it out, you want ppl to believe that restricts us taking in refugees so you can make political capital
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And THAT, Ldr, sums up how rotten to the core any discussion is. Genuine, gut felt criticisms of national policy can be just dismissed because of the supposed political views of the person making the criticisms.
No effort to actually engage with the substantive issue. Just a "you have an agenda" dismissal.
Actually though you ARE right. I DO have an agenda. I want us to be run by politicians who have a shred of f**king morality and responsibility about them. Since you think they are all the same anyway, you yawn and turn your back while we are showing the nasty, vindictive side of our nature to the world on this issue.
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And THAT, Ldr, sums up how rotten to the core any discussion is. Genuine, gut felt criticisms of national policy can be just dismissed because of the supposed political views of the person making the criticisms.
No effort to actually engage with the substantive issue. Just a "you have an agenda" dismissal.
Actually though you ARE right. I DO have an agenda. I want us to be run by politicians who have a shred of f**king morality and responsibility about them. Since you think they are all the same anyway, you yawn and turn your back while we are showing the nasty, vindictive side of our nature to the world on this issue.
I refer you to post #1065
You are above misleading
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I just want our government to be decent f**king human beings. Is it too much to ask for?
I'm not interested I political principles, ideology or point scoring. I want us to do the decent thing.
This is a very imperfect world and I think we have to understand this. There are no perfect solutions or ideal ways of doing things. We must always adapt. That is the great strength of humanity. It's ability to adapt.
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And *I* refer you to the fact that whatever Patel claims a) we are still requiring refugees to apply for visas b) we are frequently making it impossible for them to do so and c) We have accepted only 50 refugees into the country so far whe the rest of the EU is dealing with 1.5m. The last one being my original point.
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Amen RD.
There is no excuse whatsoever for us not waiving visa requirements for anyone with a Ukraine passport.
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And *I* refer you to the fact that whatever Patel claims a) we are still requiring refugees to apply for visas b) we are frequently making it impossible for them to do so and c) We have accepted only 50 refugees into the country so far whe the rest of the EU is dealing with 1.5m. The last one being my original point.
Since your so fond of them Billy I'll throw you an analogy, from a post on the main board recently where a child had been hit by the ball in shooting practice.
What you have just done is come on here expressing complete outrage about a child getting hit
And neglected to give the full picture about the fuss made, shirt given etc
You have moved from balanced commentator to having more spin than any Tory politician or back in the day Mandleson, everything is written via a prism of emotion not fact
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I've presented 4 facts.
1.5million Ukrainians are now refugees. We've given 50 of them visas. There are 27 countries in Europe giving them visa free access. We refuse to be one of those.
Now, you are within your rights to do your usual "meh" and say "who really cares? We'll all die one day."
Me? I have higher standards for my country.
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We have to treat this conflict on its own merits and welcome every Ukrainian refugee with open arms .
If the current genocide doesn't convince you then I don't really know what to say in all honesty .
My position is this , letting any Tom Dick and Harry in to this country is another debate altogether .
The Ukrainian refugees need shelter , hope and a future and we need to step up considerably .
It is what it is .
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People are trying to escape a war ,not to just allow them into the country is a disgrace and make me embarrassed to be English at times ,in Poland people are inviting them into there homes to live with them so they have a roof over their heads and leaving pushchairs at railway stations for people with children to use,this is not the fault of Ukrainian people we should be doing what ever is needed to help no IFS no but.
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A refugee is a refugee is a refugee.
''“someone who is unable or unwilling to return to their country of origin owing to a well-founded fear of being persecuted for reasons of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group, or political opinion.”
we did sign a convention, right?
https://www.unhcr.org/en-au/what-is-a-refugee.html#:~:text=%E2%80%9Csomeone%20who%20is%20unable%20or,group%2C%20or%20political%20opinion.%E2%80%9D
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Shouldn't we vet each and every single one of them though? Or do we just allow any old Russian spy/terrorist etc to claim they are a Ukrainian refugee? If you don't check them you don't know.
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You can imagine the fuss if we got another Salisbury situation.
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We don't vet politicians that are up close and more than personal with russian criminals and cronies
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Axholme the Putin apologist has gone quiet recently.
I'd rather trust RT than the BBC.
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We don't vet politicians that are up close and more than personal with russian criminals and cronies
I don’t think that we in England do it particularly well either.
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We don't vet politicians that are up close and more than personal with russian criminals and cronies
Well we DID vet Lebedev. Then Johnson told the security services to vet him differently.
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Shouldn't we vet each and every single one of them though? Or do we just allow any old Russian spy/terrorist etc to claim they are a Ukrainian refugee? If you don't check them you don't know.
Yes I think it is absolutely disgraceful that Poland, Romania, Hungary, Moldova, France, Germany and all the other countries currenly assiting these people are letting hundreds of thousands of potential Russian spies sleep on the floors of their train stations with no belongings - because thats what spies do.
When they could just as easily pop on Roman's yacht or plane, or pose as a diplomat in the Embassy, and arrive in the UK with no questions asked. Maybe they want to save money by walking here?
Pathetic. Nigel Farage - come on down...
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We don't vet politicians that are up close and more than personal with russian criminals and cronies
Well we DID vet Lebedev. Then Johnson told the security services to vet him differently.
There are too many apologists hanging around making excuses
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There is a further point on the refugee issue that people need to consider.
The UK (Patel) is still applying visa requirements, despite some not having documentation available, because they fled a war zone in an emergency.
Those people are in a difficult place. But if they do have relatives in the UK, then at least they have someone to help out, to argue their case.
The most vulnerable are those WITHOUT anyone in the UK to offer support.
Patel seems to be saying those in greatest need should be ignored by the UK.
Utterly shameful of her in my book, and also disgraceful from other parties to fail to point out this obvious fact.
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50 visas issued. 50. And there's over a million and a half refugees...
Great performance Patel. f**king great. Remind me, what are your antecedents?
Like that asshole Portillo who does the train journeys on tv. His parents fled Spain in the 1930s to avoid the Civil War. So their son, a major minister in 1980s Conservative governments led the 'no foreigners here' campaign for years.
BobG
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I’m beginning to see what could end up being a resolution to this.
Putin is failing big time in his military assault on the whole country. It’s fragmented. Plagued by lack of moral, and logistics. And loss of life.
Putin may see a way out of this though.
Looking at the graphics of areas taken by Russia to date, he has created a Russian corridor in the south linking the rebel held areas in the east to the strategically important ports in the south and Crimea itself.
A bit like the Dayton accord in Bosnia, there could be a divvying up of land here. Allow Putin his access to Crimea through a land corridor and leave the rest of Ukraine as is.
This could be a possible end game for him. Not ideal for Ukrainians of course.
We shall see.
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Road sign in Odessa
Straight on: f**k off
Left: f**k off again
Right: f**k off back to Russia
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Genuine question as I don't know the answer. This country has so far issued 50 visas to those wanting to come to this country. Does anyone know the actual number that has applied? Is it just 50, is 100, is 1000, is it more?
Before people have a go at me does anyone actually know how many have applied. Yes we should take more I agree with that.
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Genuine question as I don't know the answer. This country has so far issued 50 visas to those wanting to come to this country. Does anyone know the actual number that has applied? Is it just 50, is 100, is 1000, is it more?
Before people have a go at me does anyone actually know how many have applied. Yes we should take more I agree with that.
Over 50000. To my point made before it's right to vet these people, security neccesitates it. But 50 approved? That's pathetic. Do it but do it quick.
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Genuine question as I don't know the answer. This country has so far issued 50 visas to those wanting to come to this country. Does anyone know the actual number that has applied? Is it just 50, is 100, is 1000, is it more?
Before people have a go at me does anyone actually know how many have applied. Yes we should take more I agree with that.
Genuine question as I don't know the answer. This country has so far issued 50 visas to those wanting to come to this country. Does anyone know the actual number that has applied? Is it just 50, is 100, is 1000, is it more?
Before people have a go at me does anyone actually know how many have applied. Yes we should take more I agree with that.
Over 50000. To my point made before it's right to vet these people, security neccesitates it. But 50 approved? That's pathetic. Do it but do it quick.
Because we are special.
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Next question that I don't have an answer to. Where are we going to put them? The same hotels as the Afghan refuges that have been in there months now? Or do we build a refuge camp somewhere. Then that brings in the nimbies. So what do we do with this 50000?
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Genuine question as I don't know the answer. This country has so far issued 50 visas to those wanting to come to this country. Does anyone know the actual number that has applied? Is it just 50, is 100, is 1000, is it more?
Before people have a go at me does anyone actually know how many have applied. Yes we should take more I agree with that.
Over 50000. To my point made before it's right to vet these people, security neccesitates it. But 50 approved? That's pathetic. Do it but do it quick.
How many terrorist cells were there in Ukraine before Russia invaded. How many news stories are you aware of that showed the dangers to Europe from Ukraine terrorists? Couple that with the fact that nearly 98% are women, children, elderly and disabled what vetting would you feel comfortable with? Most of the men that made it across the border did so to get there family to safety before going back to defend their country.
We have signed up with the Airbnb project to let Ukraine people use our holiday let and Annex, happy to do that for a year, apparently 18,000 households have signed up in various schemes in the UK as of last Friday, it wouldn't take a huge amount more to house 50,000. However currently there is no way for them to stay in the UK even with this offer.
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Did you do that for the Afghans as well?
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Next question that I don't have an answer to. Where are we going to put them? The same hotels as the Afghan refuges that have been in there months now? Or do we build a refuge camp somewhere. Then that brings in the nimbies. So what do we do with this 50000?
Well in Poland and Germany people are opening their houses and letting people stay in spare rooms.
There was a suggestion that there could be as many as 5 million refugees! That's going to be a challenge for all of Europe.
TBH we are considering letting someone stay in our spare small bedroom.
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I have several spare rooms to offer.
BobG
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We would also happily open up our spare room to refugees - if there were a way to do so.
It's perhaps no surprise that now we are outside the EU circle, we are finding difficulty in accomplishing basic operational tasks and find ourselves outside looking in somewhat. The fact that the public (and government) has committed much in financial assistance and aid may not be reflected well if we can't physically support the people fleeing by offering them safe shelter and refuge. It's a logistical problem, but surely not an insurmountable issue. Let's hope that PP and her people pull their fingers out quickly and get this moving with some urgency...
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Did you do that for the Afghans as well?
Although I fully understand what you are trying to signal with your comment. Airbnb did not set up a system where we could, we did though for NHS staff during the pandemic and we also did as part of the Grenville tragedy, although neither was taken up as we are pretty remote in Cornwall.
It's extremely difficult to allow people to use our homes here in the UK. It's not the case in the EU and that is simply wrong.
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Dangerous and difficult times bring out the best in people
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There are dozens of apartments in London, owned by Russian kleptocrats as investment properties and left empty.
Start by requisitioning them.
And for those who say "you can't", you CAN. You just need the will.
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''McDonald’s Corp and PepsiCo Inc are among companies continuing to operate in Russia, prompting New York state’s pension fund - a shareholder in the pair - to urge them to consider pausing their operations there''
Maybe there's are a couple of companies here to avoid until they get on the right side of history.
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Axholme the Putin apologist has gone quiet recently.
I'd rather trust RT than the BBC.
You can still get RT on other platforms, so that's good news.
TBH i can't be bothered posting any more, it's a waste of breath and everyone's made their minds up in any case. VICTORY TO RUSSIA!
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AL you’ve posted some crap on this and other threads but your contribution to this thread has surpassed your previous crap, glad you cannot be bothered to post anymore. This forum and this thread will be better for it
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Next question that I don't have an answer to. Where are we going to put them? The same hotels as the Afghan refuges that have been in there months now? Or do we build a refuge camp somewhere. Then that brings in the nimbies. So what do we do with this 50000?
In the country mansions of the 2000+ Russian nationals with connections to Putin in this country that we are not seizing. Or the several thousand London apartments they own but keep empty for investment reasons.
I wonder where the Poles/Romainians/Slovaks etc are going to 'put them'. With them not having the luxury of so many empty properties or being a G7 country with one of the richest economies in the world.
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Genuine question as I don't know the answer. This country has so far issued 50 visas to those wanting to come to this country. Does anyone know the actual number that has applied? Is it just 50, is 100, is 1000, is it more?
Before people have a go at me does anyone actually know how many have applied. Yes we should take more I agree with that.
Over 50000. To my point made before it's right to vet these people, security neccesitates it. But 50 approved? That's pathetic. Do it but do it quick.
Been on the radio this morning that there is 1 person processing applications in the British Embassy in Poland.
Also reported that other countries have people processing in the refugee processing centres that have been set up across Poland.
We have 1 person in the Embassy in Warsaw. The invasion began 11 days ago.
All this off the radio btw so cant link.
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I used to walk past an enormous mansion in Holland Park when I worked in West London.
It had been shut up for years, there was a big Porsche SUV with flat tyres and moss growing on it in the drive.
I wouldn't be surprised if that was an oligarch investment.
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Russia will stop 'in a moment' if Ukraine meets terms - Kremlin
https://www.reuters.com/world/kremlin-says-russian-military-action-will-stop-moment-if-ukraine-meets-2022-03-07/
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Russia will stop 'in a moment' if Ukraine meets terms - Kremlin
https://www.reuters.com/world/kremlin-says-russian-military-action-will-stop-moment-if-ukraine-meets-2022-03-07/
And what about the next nation they try to annex.
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Russia will stop 'in a moment' if Ukraine meets terms - Kremlin
https://www.reuters.com/world/kremlin-says-russian-military-action-will-stop-moment-if-ukraine-meets-2022-03-07/
Is that a climb down from Russia?
Or does the issue of Ukraine nuetralty still involve the removal of the democratic government to be replaced with a pro-Russian dictator in the mold of Belarus?
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For now, to bide time, save lives, infrastructure and the global economy, I think this would be the best course of action.
Putin will not be around for ever.
His successor could be someone much more amenable.
This could be Putins way out.
Let him have it , while ever he is alive.
If this conflict continues , tens of thousands will die. Possibly hundreds of thousands. Ukraine will be reduced to a rubble heap. An unliveable swathe of land.
Central Europe will be awash with refugees.
The global economy will be shafted. For decades.
This is a peaceful resolution.
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For now, to bide time, save lives, infrastructure and the global economy, I think this would be the best course of action.
Putin will not be around for ever.
His successor could be someone much more amenable.
This could be Putins way out.
Let him have it , while ever he is alive.
If this conflict continues , tens of thousands will die. Possibly hundreds of thousands. Ukraine will be reduced to a rubble heap. An unliveable swathe of land.
Central Europe will be awash with refugees.
The global economy will be shafted. For decades.
This is a peaceful resolution.
I believe it is peace in our time??
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Yes. And a damn good song by Big Country also.
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Not sure Ukraine will accept this..... unless Putin back pedals and relinquishes more.
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One problem with the Russian offer. The government.
I'm not sure the Ukrainians would agree to any deal that did away with the democratic system. That's what they are fighting for. they do not want to live under the rule of a Russian autocrat, even the Russian speakers, who are hanging on like grim death in Khakiv. They don't even want to escape the bombing if it means being evacuated to Russia or Belarus.
And I fear Putin cannot tolerate the existence of a democracy right on his doorstep.
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Russia will stop 'in a moment' if Ukraine meets terms - Kremlin
https://www.reuters.com/world/kremlin-says-russian-military-action-will-stop-moment-if-ukraine-meets-2022-03-07/
And a couple of weeks ago Putin said Ukraine should not exisit as it is not a proper country and historically part of Russia.
Only one of the above statements by them can be true.
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Just reading some accounts of intercepted conversations of Russian forces. One lad complains "everyone here has got a f**kng assualt rifle. You drive down the street and its tat tat tat tat all the time...
Which makes you wonder where all these weapons might eventually end up.
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Very good piece on the BBC this evening, following a Ukrainian born British passport holder in Calais, trying to get visas for his wife and kids to the UK.
He went on a wild goose chase from office to unmanned office only to eventually find he had to wait another week and then go back to Paris and try again.
He's one of about 10,000 trying to get here right now
Shocking, disgaceful behaviour by our government.
I agree with Alex Sayle....
Patel is the type of person who'd disconnect your life support so she could charge her phone.
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Axholme the Putin apologist has gone quiet recently.
I'd rather trust RT than the BBC.
You can still get RT on other platforms, so that's good news.
TBH i can't be bothered posting any more, it's a waste of breath and everyone's made their minds up in any case. VICTORY TO RUSSIA!
Yeh about the time Russian troops came over the border to invade a democratic country and started killing its citizens .
LONG LIVE UKRAINE
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Russia will stop 'in a moment' if Ukraine meets terms - Kremlin
https://www.reuters.com/world/kremlin-says-russian-military-action-will-stop-moment-if-ukraine-meets-2022-03-07/
And a couple of weeks ago Putin said Ukraine should not exisit as it is not a proper country and historically part of Russia.
Only one of the above statements by them can be true.
And either way you'd be taking the word of a liar and dictator.
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And words from another liar and would-be dictator
''Trump: US should put Chinese flags on F-22 jets and ‘bomb shit out of’ Russia
Trump tells Republican donors Putin would not have invaded Ukraine had he been president and calls Nato a ‘paper tiger’
how thick can he be?
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Russia will stop 'in a moment' if Ukraine meets terms - Kremlin
https://www.reuters.com/world/kremlin-says-russian-military-action-will-stop-moment-if-ukraine-meets-2022-03-07/
And a couple of weeks ago Putin said Ukraine should not exisit as it is not a proper country and historically part of Russia.
Only one of the above statements by them can be true.
And either way you'd be taking the word of a liar and dictator.
Im taking a wild swipe in the dark but I reckon when he said he thought Ukraine was an anomily that shouldn't exist but instead be part of a Greater Russia (controlled by him) he wasn't lying.
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Fair point wilts
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Vlad's bought boy Boris has left an "oligarch loophole" in the plans to clamp down on Russian money:
https://bylinetimes.com/2022/03/07/economic-crime-bill-oligarch-loophole-uk/
I thought I better mention it, just in case the BBC forgets!
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I've just been reminded of the genius take on the Russian national anthem that Laibach put together 20 years ago.
https://youtu.be/pH4SRm9oe7c
Scarily pointing out Russia's need to dominate its neighbours. "The eternal union of fraternal states. United forever in Great Russia's embrace". But as the video shows when it ends, it's all a Potemkin Village illusion.
By the way, they did a whole album full of retakes of national anthems. Don't watch the Anglia video unless you have a strong stomach.
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Putin is threatening a little economic warfare of his own now.
He's threatening to shut off Nordstream 1.
I'm sorry to say, this will probably have a more immediate and impactful effect on Western Europe than anything our sanctions can do to Russia.
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Anyone would think he previously supplied gas out of the kindness of his heart and not for the money created from it. His heart must be bleeding through the sheer ungratefulness of his generosity.
f**k the bas**rd. Let him keep his f**king gas.
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Putin is threatening a little economic warfare of his own now.
He's threatening to shut off Nordstream 1.
I'm sorry to say, this will probably have a more immediate and impactful effect on Western Europe than anything our sanctions can do to Russia.
I disagree RD.
It'll badly damage us socially and economically. But we will come through. And the start of Spring is the least damaging time to do this.
The sanctions on Russia will devastate the country over 3-6 months. They will experience a Great Depression on steroids.
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''Economic Crime Bill: MPs back measures to speed up oligarch sanctions''
''The bill, which now goes to the House of Lords and is expected to become law later this month, contains several measures to tackle oligarchs and companies associated with Mr Putin.
These include:
Forcing foreign owners of UK companies to declare and verify their identities
Prison sentences of up to five years for those who fail to do so
Strengthening Unexplained Wealth Orders - powers brought into force in 2018 to counter suspected criminal money invested in property, but used only four times since then
Making it simpler for UK authorities to sanction individuals already punished by allies such as the US and EU
All good except:
''Since Russia began the invasion of Ukraine, UK assets held by some individuals, banks and firms close to Mr Putin have already been frozen.
But a number sanctioned by the US or the EU have not been targeted by the UK''
During the Commons debate, some MPs called for the UK government to go further and seize - rather than just freeze - assets belonging to oligarchs.
Several amendments to the government's plans were defeated in votes and the bill as a whole got through the Commons unopposed''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-60646119
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Putin is threatening a little economic warfare of his own now.
He's threatening to shut off Nordstream 1.
I'm sorry to say, this will probably have a more immediate and impactful effect on Western Europe than anything our sanctions can do to Russia.
I disagree RD.
It'll badly damage us socially and economically. But we will come through. And the start of Spring is the least damaging time to do this.
The sanctions on Russia will devastate the country over 3-6 months. They will experience a Great Depression on steroids.
Reminiscent of Scargill's untimely strike in the '80s.
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Putin is threatening a little economic warfare of his own now.
He's threatening to shut off Nordstream 1.
I'm sorry to say, this will probably have a more immediate and impactful effect on Western Europe than anything our sanctions can do to Russia.
I disagree RD.
It'll badly damage us socially and economically. But we will come through. And the start of Spring is the least damaging time to do this.
The sanctions on Russia will devastate the country over 3-6 months. They will experience a Great Depression on steroids.
Reminiscent of Scargill's untimely strike in the '80s.
Reminds me of all the untimely parties in number 10 while people were dying
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Putin is threatening a little economic warfare of his own now.
He's threatening to shut off Nordstream 1.
I'm sorry to say, this will probably have a more immediate and impactful effect on Western Europe than anything our sanctions can do to Russia.
I disagree RD.
It'll badly damage us socially and economically. But we will come through. And the start of Spring is the least damaging time to do this.
The sanctions on Russia will devastate the country over 3-6 months. They will experience a Great Depression on steroids.
It's looking like we'll find out. Taken together with American plans to stop the sale of Russian oil, there are predictions oil could surge to $300 a barrel.
That would give us a Great Depression on steroids too.
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The catch is Russia would cut off a massive chunk of income to help keep this war going. It would be a big gamble.
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Does that mean we won't be able to afford to go out and use our own cars and have to rely on Amazon to deliver our stuff?
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Does that mean we won't be able to afford to go out and use our own cars and have to rely on Amazon to deliver our stuff?
Much more than that. Massive inflation in the cost of goods, including food.
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Does that mean we won't be able to afford to go out and use our own cars and have to rely on Amazon to deliver our stuff?
Much more than that. Massive inflation in the cost of goods, including food.
It's a war mate. What do you expect?
More to the point, what do you think we should do?
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The catch is Russia would cut off a massive chunk of income to help keep this war going. It would be a big gamble.
the thing is, if putin isn't squashed this time what has all the death and destruction in the Ukraine been for over the past 7-8 years, if putin wins this one it will give him strength to further his ambitions, he hasn't been deterred so far.
russia without putin and his cronies would be an enormous win for the world but not forgetting the sacrifices in Ukraine, it then it allows the world to focus on china.
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Putin is threatening a little economic warfare of his own now.
He's threatening to shut off Nordstream 1.
I'm sorry to say, this will probably have a more immediate and impactful effect on Western Europe than anything our sanctions can do to Russia.
I disagree RD.
It'll badly damage us socially and economically. But we will come through. And the start of Spring is the least damaging time to do this.
The sanctions on Russia will devastate the country over 3-6 months. They will experience a Great Depression on steroids.
Evidence:
The Russian currency has fallen from 13 US cents/Rouble just before the invasion to 0.75cents/Rouble today.
That's the equivalent of the pound falling from the current $1.30/pound to 7cents/Pound.
Basically, Russia cannot afford to import anything at all from the West.
Flip side is that this is the reason Russian gas and oil has gone up massively in price in dollar terms. But that really only applies to oil and gas for us. For Russia, it applies to everything, they import. Clothes, cars, phones, insurance, computers, spare parts. All 20 times more expensive than they were a fortnight ago. 50 years worth of inflation in a fortnight. No modern economy can survive that.
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Does that mean we won't be able to afford to go out and use our own cars and have to rely on Amazon to deliver our stuff?
Much more than that. Massive inflation in the cost of goods, including food.
It's a war mate. What do you expect?
Well yes but this is an escalation that takes its effects beyond the boundaries of Ukraine.
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Remaining stocks of western goods will leap in price compounding the effect of the dodgy rouble.
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Does that mean we won't be able to afford to go out and use our own cars and have to rely on Amazon to deliver our stuff?
Much more than that. Massive inflation in the cost of goods, including food.
It's a war mate. What do you expect?
Well yes but this is an escalation that takes its effects beyond the boundaries of Ukraine.
Well it's either that or surrender, isn't it?
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The catch is Russia would cut off a massive chunk of income to help keep this war going. It would be a big gamble.
the thing is, if putin isn't squashed this time what has all the death and destruction in the Ukraine been for over the past 7-8 years, if putin wins this one it will give him strength to further his ambitions, he hasn't been deterred so far.
russia without putin and his cronies would be an enormous win for the world but not forgetting the sacrifices in Ukraine, it then it allows the world to focus on china.
I wonder what China makes of all this?
Certainly seeing a united western front quickly emerge against Russia must give them pause for thought over Taiwan.
If. Big IF. If Putin falls, then there might be an incredible opportunity to bring democracy and stability to Russia.
But China might bankroll Putin and buy his hydrocarbons.
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Priti Patel said explicitly yesterday that there was a system in place to assist Ukrainian refugees arriving in Calais needing assistance applying for visas.
This is it.
https://mobile.twitter.com/andylines/status/1500837210895130629
What does it take before folk wake up to how incompetent, untruthful and nasty our Govt is?
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Does that mean we won't be able to afford to go out and use our own cars and have to rely on Amazon to deliver our stuff?
Much more than that. Massive inflation in the cost of goods, including food.
It's a war mate. What do you expect?
Well yes but this is an escalation that takes its effects beyond the boundaries of Ukraine.
Well it's either that or surrender, isn't it?
Well, abandon Ukraine.
I suppose we'll just have to face it but the news is it might start getting very tough for us too.
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There's a really simple answer to this.
Do what Estonia and Sweden and Germany and Malta and Portugal and France and Netherlands and Luxembourg and Italy and Austria and Czechia and Greece and Lithuania and Cyprus and Latvia and Bulgaria and Croatia and Denmark and Spain and Romania and Slovakia and Poland and Ireland and Belgium are doing.
Tell the poor bas**rds they can come here without a f**king visa. Show some basic humanity.
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Apparently, China is a major part of this. It seems to me that China will support whoever is winning for financial purposes.
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f**k me! The Ukrainians have killed Major General Gerasimov. He's a very senior Russian military leader.
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I'm starting to be hopeful about events on the ground. It appears the Russians are stretched, logistics are breaking down, morale is rock bottom.
Christ knows how those troops feel in that northern column. Camped out in the woods night after night in the freezing cold, waiting for supplies of food, wondering where the next ambush might be.
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fmd, patel, raab, what a bunch of incompetents
''On a day of confusion and uncertainty for Ukrainian refugees making the 1,400-mile journey to Britain, the home secretary admitted that she has not yet set up a visa application centre (VAC) near the French port of Calais, where refugees have gathered. It also emerged that the UK office in Brussels is open for only three half-days a week to process applications''
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''11:34
UK turns away nearly 300 Ukrainians at Calais
Almost 300 Ukrainians have been turned away while trying to cross to the UK from Calais, France.
The number is almost the same as the total number of Ukrainian visas issued so far by the Home Office.
Many refugees seek to cross the border from France to the UK through the port of Calais.
About 589 people have arrived there since Russia's invasion of Ukraine began, according to Calais' sub-prefect, Véronique Deprez-Boudier. She said 286 had been turned away by UK authorities''
Take your time, no rush.
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What the Russian people are fed through state media .
https://youtu.be/kELta9MLOzg
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Just looking at the Bank of England website. Inflation is currently running at 5.5%. That’s nearly three times the target of 2%. The next interest rate review is on 17 March. I cannot see anything other than another rate rise.
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And yet NR what will an interest rate rise do when energy prices are being manipulated like this?
Just pile more pressure on. In fact a rise under these circumstances might even be inflationary.
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The Ukrainians are saying the Russian advance has slowed significantly.
And in response the Russians are becoming more brutal.
A journalist in Russia has reported one Kremlin official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, described the invasion as a "clusterf***".
And it occurs to me were two weeks into it tomorrow. This was the point where the experts were saying this war starts becoming simply unaffordable for Russia
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And yet NR what will an interest rate rise do when energy prices are being manipulated like this?
Just pile more pressure on. In fact a rise under these circumstances might even be inflationary.
It’s an interesting point. The fuel price hike alone is like an interest rate rise in itself. Our family are giving second thoughts to any trips in the car we simply do not need to make. And I’ll be working from home even more so than usual.
We shall see what 17 March brings.
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I'm starting to be hopeful about events on the ground. It appears the Russians are stretched, logistics are breaking down, morale is rock bottom.
Christ knows how those troops feel in that northern column. Camped out in the woods night after night in the freezing cold, waiting for supplies of food, wondering where the next ambush might be.
Cold, wet and hungry is not going to make them feel up for the fight... and don't forget they were also 'on exercise' for several weeks before the invasion, so they ain't going to be happy bunnies...
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It’s an interesting point. The fuel price hike alone is like an interest rate rise in itself. Our family are giving second thoughts to any trips in the car we simply do not need to make. And I’ll be working from home even more so than usual.
We shall see what 17 March brings.
Both my missus and me have to travel to work by car and the fuel prices do hit the pocket. Although if we were WFH the missus would have the heating on all day anyway....... so a bit of a double edge sword really.
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f**k me! The Ukrainians have killed Major General Gerasimov. He's a very senior Russian military leader.
There are two Major General Gerasimov’s, it was the junior ranking of the two that has been killed, the senior ranking one looks like one of the two Generals with the glum faces when mad vlad announced he had put his nukes on standby
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f**k me! The Ukrainians have killed Major General Gerasimov. He's a very senior Russian military leader.
There are two Major General Gerasimov’s, it was the junior ranking of the two that has been killed, the senior ranking one looks like one of the two Generals with the glum faces when mad vlad announced he had put his nukes on standby
Yep. The one who was killed ran the Crimea invasion which was seen as a textbook operation. I think the other one is a senior Kremlin apparatchik.
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It's about time putin showed up at 'the front'
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It's about time putin showed up at 'the front'
Give over, he dare n’t sit within 25 yards of his senior generals
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What have we got to date, an invasion still extremely dangerous but off the rails, a rouble on par with rubble, a tanking russian share market, crazy inflation, limited cash reserves in foreign currency starting at 5bn+, and his oligarchs probably thinking about themselves right now.
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The catch is Russia would cut off a massive chunk of income to help keep this war going. It would be a big gamble.
the thing is, if putin isn't squashed this time what has all the death and destruction in the Ukraine been for over the past 7-8 years, if putin wins this one it will give him strength to further his ambitions, he hasn't been deterred so far.
russia without putin and his cronies would be an enormous win for the world but not forgetting the sacrifices in Ukraine, it then it allows the world to focus on china.
I wonder what China makes of all this?
Certainly seeing a united western front quickly emerge against Russia must give them pause for thought over Taiwan.
If. Big IF. If Putin falls, then there might be an incredible opportunity to bring democracy and stability to Russia.
But China might bankroll Putin and buy his hydrocarbons.
That's a great question. Didn't they abstain in the UN vote the other day?
I think they will do the opposite - I dont think they will ever be fully behind Putin, beacuse of the worldwide consequences. They want to be a world economic power and be the world's powerhouse. The last thing they want is a world economic recession, but neither wouldn't want an unstable Russia on their border. I reckon for them the best thing would be for this all to be over and things to get back to 'normal' asap.
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What have we got to date, an invasion still extremely dangerous but off the rails, a rouble on par with rubble, a tanking russian share market, crazy inflation, limited cash reserves in foreign currency starting at 5bn+, and his oligarchs probably thinking about themselves right now.
And Thousands of needless deaths .
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I'm starting to be hopeful about events on the ground. It appears the Russians are stretched, logistics are breaking down, morale is rock bottom.
Christ knows how those troops feel in that northern column. Camped out in the woods night after night in the freezing cold, waiting for supplies of food, wondering where the next ambush might be.
The weather in the north east of Ukraine is about to take a turn for the worst too. Temps predicted to be -12 to -20 with wind chill in the coming days . Guns not needed then. Just a bloody great hosepipe. Nowt worse than cold and wet.
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What have we got to date, an invasion still extremely dangerous but off the rails, a rouble on par with rubble, a tanking russian share market, crazy inflation, limited cash reserves in foreign currency starting at 5bn+, and his oligarchs probably thinking about themselves right now.
And Thousands of needless deaths .
And rapidly rising fuel and food costs across the World.
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US now going to ban all Russian oil exports to them.
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This is not likely to end well. Putin is being backed into a corner. We all know how his psyche will react to that
The only other possibility is a coup. But that is both unlikely and equally bloody dangerous.
BobG
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This is not likely to end well. Putin is being backed into a corner. We all know how his psyche will react to that
The only other possibility is a coup. But that is both unlikely and equally bloody dangerous.
BobG
I'm hoping that the US have inside intelligence that this course of action may lead to an internal overthrow of this dangerous individual.
This all seems very out of character for this devious despot, when that happens then anything can develop that the west may well rue their handling of this situation stretching right back to 2008.
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Interesting perspective from the 98 year old Henry Kissinger
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This is not likely to end well. Putin is being backed into a corner. We all know how his psyche will react to that
The only other possibility is a coup. But that is both unlikely and equally bloody dangerous.
BobG
Bob, are you saying the only two possibilities are a coup or Putin dropping nuclear bombs?
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I'm sure you are as well informed as I Belton.
BobG
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I'm sure you are as well informed as I Belton.
BobG
It was a perfectly reasonable question, Bob.
What’s the point in you posting anything at all with such an attitude to responses?
I’ll just have to assume you do mean those two things.
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This is not likely to end well. Putin is being backed into a corner. We all know how his psyche will react to that
The only other possibility is a coup. But that is both unlikely and equally bloody dangerous.
BobG
Bob, are you saying the only two possibilities are a coup or Putin dropping nuclear bombs?
Have a look at the Kissinger article I attached which suggests another possibility
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Well Zelensky channelled Churchill and Shakespeare but he's not going to get his no fly zone.
And realistically I don't think we can even give him jet fighters because I don't think the Poles want to put their country in the direct firing line.
I think the push should be to get more of those drones that the Turks seem very willing to supply.
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This is not likely to end well. Putin is being backed into a corner. We all know how his psyche will react to that
The only other possibility is a coup. But that is both unlikely and equally bloody dangerous.
BobG
Bob, are you saying the only two possibilities are a coup or Putin dropping nuclear bombs?
Have a look at the Kissinger article I attached which suggests another possibility
Thanks, Dutch, that is an interesting read. An ‘everybody’s happy’ approach. This line stood out:
‘Leaders of all sides should return to examining outcomes, not compete in posturing.’
I’m not sure Putin’s got that in him, though.
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Yes Belton. When one looks into the future there are always, always an infinite number of possibilities. It goes with the territory. I can think of a dozen more right now. That's when personal judgement, knowledge and experience enters the discussion.
Cheers
BobG
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Dutch. Thank you. I didn't even know he is still alive - although I often think of him...
Despite Dr K's suggestions, his final couple of lines suggest he is not confident. How could he be given the strident tenor of the major players around the world? The only one that is keeping its powder dry is China. This was a very telling comment:
"The demonisation of Vladimir Putin is not a policy. It is an alibi for the absence of one."
In that light, how can we believe even Western leaders know where they are going? That they have a set of rational beliefs and options? This comment more suggests chaos theory is in play - on both sides.
BobG
PS Belton. Spot on with your last post!
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Yes Belton. When one looks into the future there are always, always an infinite number of possibilities. It goes with the territory. I can think of a dozen more right now. That's when personal judgement, knowledge and experience enters the discussion.
Cheers
BobG
So you do think there are other alternatives?
Your cryptic comments are difficult to work out.
It seems I’m not as well informed as you after all, which was why I was hoping for a clear answer to a simple question.
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Sorry Belton. My PS above was just too late I think. Like everybody else on here, with one possible exception perhaps, my knowledge is that of a reasonably informed outsider. It is, therefore, incomplete. I have given what I believed. If you wish to challenge that of course you can! But me expanding on a point I made to my entire satisfaction is hubris.
BobG
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Putin is threatening a little economic warfare of his own now.
He's threatening to shut off Nordstream 1.
I'm sorry to say, this will probably have a more immediate and impactful effect on Western Europe than anything our sanctions can do to Russia.
I disagree RD.
It'll badly damage us socially and economically. But we will come through. And the start of Spring is the least damaging time to do this.
The sanctions on Russia will devastate the country over 3-6 months. They will experience a Great Depression on steroids.
Evidence:
The Russian currency has fallen from 13 US cents/Rouble just before the invasion to 0.75cents/Rouble today.
That's the equivalent of the pound falling from the current $1.30/pound to 7cents/Pound.
Basically, Russia cannot afford to import anything at all from the West.
Flip side is that this is the reason Russian gas and oil has gone up massively in price in dollar terms. But that really only applies to oil and gas for us. For Russia, it applies to everything, they import. Clothes, cars, phones, insurance, computers, spare parts. All 20 times more expensive than they were a fortnight ago. 50 years worth of inflation in a fortnight. No modern economy can survive that.
D'oh. Late night posting. The pre-invasion rate was 1.3c/Rouble, not 13.
Still, it means the Rouble has halved in value. Should have realised a collapse to 1/17th of its value wasn't realistic.
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Thanks Bob.
I wasn’t challenging you, Bob, merely asking you to clarify what you meant. Of course, you weren’t obliged to expand, bu doing so wouldn’t have been hubristic, just courteous.
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Well Zelensky channelled Churchill and Shakespeare but he's not going to get his no fly zone.
And realistically I don't think we can even give him jet fighters because I don't think the Poles want to put their country in the direct firing line.
I think the push should be to get more of those drones that the Turks seem very willing to supply.
You may wish to re-think that RD given the news just announced - Poland to give all its MIG-29's, free of charge, to Ukraine and encourages all other NATO/EU countries with MIG's to do the same. US to backfill as required (presumably with US pilots initally until Polish are trained up.
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Well Zelensky channelled Churchill and Shakespeare but he's not going to get his no fly zone.
And realistically I don't think we can even give him jet fighters because I don't think the Poles want to put their country in the direct firing line.
I think the push should be to get more of those drones that the Turks seem very willing to supply.
You may wish to re-think that RD given the news just announced - Poland to give all its MIG-29's, free of charge, to Ukraine and encourages all other NATO/EU countries with MIG's to do the same. US to backfill as required (presumably with US pilots initally until Polish are trained up.
Yes, just seen this. I'm a bit surprised as the Poles were worried that Putin could see it as an act of war.
It looks like the Americans will supply the Poles with replacement aircraft. The Poles already fly F16s as well as MIGs, perhaps their pilots are already sufficiently familiar with American planes.
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Can we give the Ukrainians a load of our reaper drones.
They are already using Turkish ones.
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OK Belton. I guess my years in full on aggressive commercial exploitation have made me both too cynical and too aggressive. My old Mum always tells me so anyway.
The knub, for me, of this conundrum, is that Putin has no safe way out - except being seem domestically to be 'victorious'. Anything other than that exposes him fearfully. Especially now the West is going after his allies and his economy. Without victory, to me, he looks to be walking a plank with bugger all safety net. Now, add to that what we know of his character, the rat incident in his childhood, his often repeated statement that a world without Russia in it is not a world worth having, and it forces you to look at the most severe of endgames.
That's why I think this gets scarier every single day
We are backing him into a corner he can't escape from. If he runs true to form, sooner or later he will come out fighting
This needs originality, creativity and a lack of preconceptions. We are watching the exact opposite unfold. It is even more frightening than 1962.
Oh for a latter-day Kissinger...
BobG
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This is not likely to end well. Putin is being backed into a corner. We all know how his psyche will react to that
The only other possibility is a coup. But that is both unlikely and equally bloody dangerous.
BobG
Bob, are you saying the only two possibilities are a coup or Putin dropping nuclear bombs?
Have a look at the Kissinger article I attached which suggests another possibility
Looks like it was written just after russia annexed Crimea Dutch, I gather putin doesn't read the Washington Post nor does he accept Ukraine sovereignty and self determination.
correction: I got the dates wrong, the article said Ukraine had 'only had independence for 13 years' which puts it before russia took possession of the Crimea
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Well Zelensky channelled Churchill and Shakespeare but he's not going to get his no fly zone.
And realistically I don't think we can even give him jet fighters because I don't think the Poles want to put their country in the direct firing line.
I think the push should be to get more of those drones that the Turks seem very willing to supply.
You may wish to re-think that RD given the news just announced - Poland to give all its MIG-29's, free of charge, to Ukraine and encourages all other NATO/EU countries with MIG's to do the same. US to backfill as required (presumably with US pilots initally until Polish are trained up.
Yes, just seen this. I'm a bit surprised as the Poles were worried that Putin could see it as an act of war.
It looks like the Americans will supply the Poles with replacement aircraft. The Poles already fly F16s as well as MIGs, perhaps their pilots are already sufficiently familiar with American planes.
Not a bad exchange that, giving up Mig 29’s for a far superior F-16
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Still my fave plane though Filo. I got to watch the Russian pilots skid them all over the sky, tail slides included, about half a mile from my house for over 10 years. Fuel thirsty, noisy, polluting, not much electronics, but what a plane! I love 'em!
In fact, thinking about it the Ukrainians used to send 'em over too.
BobG
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Well Zelensky channelled Churchill and Shakespeare but he's not going to get his no fly zone.
And realistically I don't think we can even give him jet fighters because I don't think the Poles want to put their country in the direct firing line.
I think the push should be to get more of those drones that the Turks seem very willing to supply.
You may wish to re-think that RD given the news just announced - Poland to give all its MIG-29's, free of charge, to Ukraine and encourages all other NATO/EU countries with MIG's to do the same. US to backfill as required (presumably with US pilots initally until Polish are trained up.
Yes, just seen this. I'm a bit surprised as the Poles were worried that Putin could see it as an act of war.
It looks like the Americans will supply the Poles with replacement aircraft. The Poles already fly F16s as well as MIGs, perhaps their pilots are already sufficiently familiar with American planes.
Where will they fly from?
There can't be any runways for them to use in Ukraine that can't be targeted by the Russians before they are operational.
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afaik the Ukraine air force is still operational idler.
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Here's some official Assesment
“We assess Putin feels aggrieved the west does not give him proper deference and perceives this as a war he cannot afford to lose,” the US director of national intelligence, Avril Haines, told the House intelligence committee.
So basically he's demanding we show him respect. Like a proper gangster.
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I wondered because I've not seem their Air Force mentioned on tv.
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I've just re-read Kissingers article that Dutch put forward. There's another seminal sentence in there...
"If some solution (based on his ideas) is not achieved the drift towards confrontation will accelerate. The time for that will come soon enough"
He spoke truth didn't he? And the West is as culpable as the East in not pushing for a rational solution. It's as if they have no idea of who they are dealing with....Let's just bully him into submission. Is that the best we can do?? This guy is very unlikely to submit. We've had over 20 years watching him. We've spent billions and billions analysing him. And bullying is the best we can come up with??
f**k me we all deserve to fry
BobG
PS Just seen River Dons post 1195 quoting the official US security/intelligence view that this is a war Putin himself believes he cannot afford to lose.
Just where does that nugget figure in our official, and unofficial, policies towards Russia right now???
If he thinks he can't afford to lose, what the hell do they think he is going to do???
BobG
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Just reading about it in the Guardian, it's not even clear how they can get these planes into Ukraine. The Americans don't seem particularly convinced this is the best equipment to supply right now at all.
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So perhaps the Ukraine AF isn’t particularly active right now.
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I think the time is past now for Putin to be able to climb down, early on there was talk of looking at the Minsk agreement again.
Now he's too invested. Too much money, too many lives. He needs something to show for it.
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Agreed RD. And that is the problem the West seems to be completely ignoring.
He has no way out except 'victory'.
So if he's going to die anyway it's not much of a problem, is it, to take out the opposition at the same time? This is the guy who has said publicly that he learned a huge life lesson from seeing what that cornered rat did all those years ago and who thinks the world has no right to exist without a pre-eminent Russia in it...
Has he been bluffing for 20 years? Do you wanna take the chance?
BobG
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So perhaps the Ukraine AF isn’t particularly active right now.
yes, limited capacity due to loss of planes and russia attempting to knock out all of its airports.
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Still my fave plane though Filo. I got to watch the Russian pilots skid them all over the sky, tail slides included, about half a mile from my house for over 10 years. Fuel thirsty, noisy, polluting, not much electronics, but what a plane! I love 'em!
In fact, thinking about it the Ukrainians used to send 'em over too.
BobG
I can’t think of a more inappropriate post on such a thread.
Can’t you, filo & chums start another thread along the lines of “Two little boy’s had two little toys…..”?
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Ha I see the US is hurting on banning Russian Oil, Petrol gone up to a whopping £2.30 a Gallon! Meanwhile Heating Oil here is £1.32 a litre gone up from 52 p a litre last September!
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Colin.
Admiring a technical achievement of an enemy is not treason. It is a recognition of something that was once extremely admirable.
I try to keep my eyes open. I don't believe in the ostrich spproach
BobG
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He’s not going to ‘climb down’ from this.
He has no ‘threat’ from any other possible leader in Russia.
The majority of the Russian people have ‘swallowed’ his propaganda spewed out constantly by RT.
The West won’t (& shouldn’t) ‘engage him directly’ in Ukraine, he would love that ‘excuse’ to bolster his ‘fake news’ at home & push his agenda to it’s ‘natural conclusion’ & turn his attentions to the Baltic States within NATO after finishing the Ukraine resistance off with chemical, biological or nuclear weapons.
After Ukraine, he has nowhere else to go. He knows his actions have already turned the West against him in a way he clearly underestimated. The sanctions will bite ever deeper into the Russian economy (despite the dragging feet feet of Bozo & Pritti Pathetic) & make Russia a pariah for decades to come.
He’s 70. For him it’s s**t or bust time. He holds the dice.
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''Vladimir Putin’s biggest mistake of the Ukraine war so far? Trusting the Western financial system''
''Over the seven years since Putin last invaded Ukraine (and annexed Crimea) in 2014, Russia's central bank has almost doubled its holdings of foreign currency and foreign bonds and gold, building up a reserve of US$630 billion at a considerable cost to the living standards of ordinary Russians.
It was a war chest that would enable Russia to continue to buy things that could only be bought in foreign currency, even if customers overseas refused to trade with it and supply it with that currency. It was Russia's insurance policy.
And although it could have been stored in Russia, much of it was kept in banks in the UK, Western Europe and the US, for easy access when it was needed to buy things on those markets.
Whatever his other suspicions of the West, Putin seemed to think its financial system wouldn't be turned off — not to a nation of Russia's size''
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-09/putin-ukraine-russia-war-financial-system-sanctions/100892980
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What a great man President Zelensky is.
.
If, when, this is over, he survives, he will be on the way to becoming more than Lech Walesa (I think I've misspelled that. Apologies Lech), more than Vaclav Havel. He could end up being as near deified as only two such colossi have achieved in my 60 odd years on this planet.
What a man. I am in awe.
BobG
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Agreed RD. And that is the problem the West seems to be completely ignoring.
He has no way out except 'victory'.
So if he's going to die anyway it's not much of a problem, is it, to take out the opposition at the same time? This is the guy who has said publicly that he learned a huge life lesson from seeing what that cornered rat did all those years ago and who thinks the world has no right to exist without a pre-eminent Russia in it...
Has he been bluffing for 20 years? Do you wanna take the chance?
BobG
He does have reasons not to take the opposition away with him, if that means the nuclear threat. He does have family, he does have daughters.
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In a nutshell
''https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-60668779''
come on Britain, don't allow Australia's similar pathetic response to refugees win out.
''Ukrainians could arrive in Australia from this weekend with government issuing 1,000 visas''
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-03-03/more-than-1-000-visas-approved-for-ukrainians-coming-australia/100880278
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I guess so RD. But groupthink must be rampant in the Kremlin. That's a wierd beast. He could (though I'm not saying he is) think he is saving them from a fate worse than death. My anecdote in the Gas Prices thread (No. 140) about NPower showed how just how farcical and counter logical decisions can be when under pressure and in an enclosed bubble. It's a possibility.
Another example was BT's bid for its 3G licenses. The focus was 'beat Vodafone'. Cabinet War Rooms, daily briefings to the Chief Exec. High powered actuaries, accountants, marketing blokes, strategic thinkers. The works. In the end BT did well out of the auctions. Until it had to pay the bill. The company didnt have the money. That led to the Chief Exec being removed and the forced sale of Yellow Pages for well over a billion. No small mistake that... It badly affected profitability for ages and the balance sheet permanently. All the economic ratios went into a long lasting tailspin too. And that materially depressed the share price for a long time too.
Groupthink. Forget the bleeding obvious
BobG
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Ha I see the US is hurting on banning Russian Oil, Petrol gone up to a whopping £2.30 a Gallon! Meanwhile Heating Oil here is £1.32 a litre gone up from 52 p a litre last September!
Meanwhile here the numbers on Petrol station Forecourts spin like Las Vegas Fruit Machines - while some " Bandit" petrol station operators claim their boards are broken so they dont put people off coming in
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Ha I see the US is hurting on banning Russian Oil, Petrol gone up to a whopping £2.30 a Gallon! Meanwhile Heating Oil here is £1.32 a litre gone up from 52 p a litre last September!
Meanwhile here the numbers on Petrol station Forecourts spin like Las Vegas Fruit Machines - while some " Bandit" petrol station operators claim their boards are broken so they dont put people off coming in
Just driving around locally at the weekend I noticed a 25p/litre price differential on diesel between forecourts. How can that be?
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Ha I see the US is hurting on banning Russian Oil, Petrol gone up to a whopping £2.30 a Gallon! Meanwhile Heating Oil here is £1.32 a litre gone up from 52 p a litre last September!
Meanwhile here the numbers on Petrol station Forecourts spin like Las Vegas Fruit Machines - while some " Bandit" petrol station operators claim their boards are broken so they dont put people off coming in
Just driving around locally at the weekend I noticed a 25p/litre price differential on diesel between forecourts. How can that be?
Because some are profiteering by upping the price of old stock, and some are waiting for the new stock before increasing prices
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I paid 63p 2 weeks ago per litre of heating oil it's now £1.76;from the same company. It's reported that Russia sovereign debt is imminently about to drop to level D after going to C. B is classed as junk, D is classed as default. Bankrupt. It's pretty scary to see the effect of economics on a sovereign nation, thank God we didn't vote to remove that protection by leaving EU.. oh wait a minute
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The f**king gall of this woman.
https://mobile.twitter.com/pritipatel/status/1501326628328071171
22000 visa applications from desperate, frightened people. 250/day being processed.
She doesn't f**king represent me. Nor the many principled Tory MPs who are up in arms about this.
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I’d be embarrassed to be represented by her
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Which cretins elected her??
BobG
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Which cretins elected her??
BobG
The constituants of Whitham in Essex.
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Well Zelensky channelled Churchill and Shakespeare but he's not going to get his no fly zone.
And realistically I don't think we can even give him jet fighters because I don't think the Poles want to put their country in the direct firing line.
I think the push should be to get more of those drones that the Turks seem very willing to supply.
You may wish to re-think that RD given the news just announced - Poland to give all its MIG-29's, free of charge, to Ukraine and encourages all other NATO/EU countries with MIG's to do the same. US to backfill as required (presumably with US pilots initally until Polish are trained up.
Well that's a post which hasn't aged well - unfortunately and annoyingly.
Apparently it's nothing to do with the capacity of the Ukraine Air Force - it was their government who asked for them - it's the Americans who dont wish to be involved, presumably so as not to give Putin an excuse to say they have 'escalated' their involvement out of fear of reprisals.
Same reason the Poles wont provide them directly.
Neither government looking good their imho.
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Priti Patel.......the sort of person who would unplug your life support machine, in order to charge her mobile!
The incredible smirk in a nutshell!
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Spray the jets in Ukrainian colours. Switch off the transponder & fly very low level over the border. Job done.
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Not just Patel, mind.
The UK is a pariah now on the matter of refugees;
https://twitter.com/ToryFibs/status/1501487986957066240
A consensus of shame!
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Not just Patel, mind.
The UK is a pariah now on the matter of refugees;
https://twitter.com/ToryFibs/status/1501487986957066240
A consensus of shame!
I wonder who they represent then.
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Maria Butina, a member of the Russian Duma, on the Today Programme this morning. Her interview, which is seriously worth listening to, starts around 1hour 50 minutes in....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m00154cl
This is what the brainwashed, (and it demonstrates how the brainwashing propaganda is pushed), believe in Russia! Ukraine, bombing their own cities, really?
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Don't you just wish the Russian military would down tools and walk out of Ukraine, realising they've bitten off more than they can chew!
Heard reports that Belarus have backed out following resignations of their top military brass, so will not be coming to Putins aid.
You wonder if Putin will play silly games with the nuclear power plants and threaten to cut off the power and cooling systems, on the basis that if he can't have Ukraine, nobody else can.
An alleged leaked report coming out of Moscow suggests his advisors have told him, if he can't drag NATO into the war, they're f*cked and can't win.
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He could easily get NATO in the war if he wants to. Send a battalion across a couple of borders so it can't be excused as an 'accident' and he'd be almost there.
BobG
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A leaked FSB report, unverified, but trusted as legit by ex fsb officers, claims Putins war has already failed.
My concern is if this is true, then how on earth will Putin come out of this with any scrap of integrity. With his own people. The proverbial captain on his sinking ship. The one he scuttled himself.
Millions of Russian youngsters now going to be deprived of western tech. No access to the www. Fast food outlets closing everywhere. Travel opportunities crushed . A black hole of an economy. Lost fathers, brothers, uncles and sons to a needless conflict.
A country with so many land borders with Europe, shutting down.
An island. Distanced in every way shape and form of modern life as they know it.
Desolate.
Desperate.
Putins own words “ a world without Russia would not be worth living in “
This is what scares me the most. The cornered rat scenario.
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He could easily get NATO in the war if he wants to. Send a battalion across a couple of borders so it can't be excused as an 'accident' and he'd be almost there.
BobG
Somehow I don't think he will entertain ideas of widening this conflict anymore. He can see how his military is performing in Ukraine, how long would his army last against combined high tech NATO forces?
He'd be waving the nuclear button around by the afternoon.
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Yes. That makes sense to me RD. And that is the gist of my ever rising paranoia. Not a single western politician, publicly at least, is suggesting any way out of this that does not involve cornering Putin. If he has no face saving way out, every single one of us has an insecure future.
The longer this goes on, the more human, capital and prestige investment Putin makes, the less he can afford to be seen to back down. If he did so, even the content of the TV stations will be used to condemn him. If he is screwed, we can be too very easily. We know his character. We know his public statements.
We need intelligence, foresight and imagination right NOW. So who we got in the West with those attributes, and, sufficient influence to carry the debate...?
BobG
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Bob, that last sentence of yours may well close this thread.
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I still think a deal can be brokered.
But there has to be a cost. A compromise.
Give up part of eastern Ukraine and the ports in the south, to Russia. It will be seen as a victory to Putin, while he is alive.
Revisit it when he is dead. Which may not be long.
With a change in leader will come a change in attitude.
One more sympathetic to Ukrainian sovereignty hopefully.
Its not without risk or more short term pain and loss.
But it’s got to be better than the ultimate dismal possible end game.
I just cannot imagine a fully occupied Ukraine being stable enough to rule. It’s too big. Putin would have to spread his troops and police far too wide. Martial law would be the order of the day to keep any sort of law and order. It would be chaos. Constant conflict. Constant loss of life. Constant instability.
Like Northern Ireland during the troubles, x 1000
Like Vietnam was for the Yanks.
Like Afghanistan on steroids.
And how much longer will Putin stand for Western countries supplying arms ?
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With regards to the “overwhelming response” from the leaders of the west this situation will become very problematic, we have no one of any gravitas to deal with this situation so they stumble on as if they are all hoping it will go away if they bury their collective heads in the sand.
If we think back to the “breached red lines “ from Obama’s reign this nut job had been enabled to act with total impunity to the point where we now find ourselves in a situation where any “manufactured” outage could result in the recertification of Europe as a new wilderness.
Nobody in their right mind would wish to have Trump in control, would this situation have occurred during his tenure? and how would he now be dealing with this?
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I actually don't think there is a settlement Ukraine can come to now that Putler would find acceptable. He's all in and needs a victory.
I think what we need to see happen is for the Ukrainians to force the Russian military out themselves. However long and hard that road is. Then this remains a domestic fight and does not draw in the wider world. He can turn to suppressing the Russian population, which he's already started doing and setting up a new cold war with the west. He will be utterly reliant on China supporting his pariah state, which they will probably do in return for his hydrocarbons.
That leaves Europe relatively safe but with an energy crisis.
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The need for strict vetting before allowing Ukrainians to come here needs to be changed.
I can understand the government not wanting undesirables coming here unchecked but I feel sure that there won’t be many young mothers, little children or elderly and infirm terrorists among the refugees.
Common sense should prevail.
If there is a need to check a few individuals then surely that could still be done when they get here, maybe put the “suspects” into a detention centre of some kind and fast track an investigation.
These people need help now, not in the next few weeks and months.
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The potential outcomes circle round in my head constantly .
I don't sleep too well either these days .
Inside Russia only those close to Putin know the real truth and as far as I know they are as nuts as he is .
The West need to start winning the information war inside Russia and reach its people .
Massive Russian casualties , NATO aggression .
Sanctions cripling the Russian economy , western aggression .
Putin has full control over information inside Russia and those who do know the truth are swiftly arrested and put in prison .
This information war inside Russia is something the West are going to have to crack .
Otherwise all possibilities remain .
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I actually don't think there is a settlement Ukraine can come to now that Putler would find acceptable. He's all in and needs a victory.
I think what we need to see happen is for the Ukrainians to force the Russian military out themselves. However long and hard that road is. Then this remains a domestic fight and does not draw in the wider world. He can turn to suppressing the Russian population, which he's already started doing and setting up a new cold war with the west. He will be utterly reliant on China supporting his pariah state, which they will probably do in return for his hydrocarbons.
That leaves Europe relatively safe but with an energy crisis.
If only it were that simple RD. Losing in any way shape or form, short or long term is not part of Putins vocabulary. Period.
If he continues to lose the conventional war, he will go unconventional. There is already talk of Intel coming out of the Kremlin of biological, chemical or even dirty bombs being used. A False flag event is fast approaching I think. Bear in mind Russia has accused Ukraine of having biological weapons of its own that Putin and co claim are funded by the US govt. A perfect excuse for Russia to unleash some of theirs. Then they just declare it was the Ukrainians that used them first. They did it is Syria. They will do it in Ukraine.
Win at all costs .
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Got me thinking. Is this whole saga Putins brexit?
Ruxit?
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... To confirm Putin is all in.
Russian president Vladimir Putin has rejected every off-ramp offered by the US to de-escalate and has, instead, ramped up Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, said US Secretary of State Antony Blinken, reported Reuters.
Really it is unbelievable how the whole world is being held to ransom by this one man.
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This reinforces NR's point in 1237 above.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60683248
BobG
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Time to re-vist The Day of the Jackal'.... But with a better ending. Lol. That would be something that, I think, has never been attempted in the last 300 years.
BobG
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... To confirm Putin is all in.
Russian president Vladimir Putin has rejected every off-ramp offered by the US to de-escalate and has, instead, ramped up Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, said US Secretary of State Antony Blinken, reported Reuters.
Really it is unbelievable how the whole world is being held to ransom by this one man.
The threat of the big red button.
Thing is, would he do it?
Would he cancel the future of everything he knows? His children? His partners? His family and friends? The planet as we know it. WW3, then decades of fallout, then decades of nuclear winter. Utter Armageddon.
The unlucky survive.
I’m fairly confident the combined conventional forces of Western Europe and the US would overwhelm Russia. Over time. Problem is, nuclear weapons are tucked away. Remote. Some underwater of course. We could not overpower Russia and eliminate that threat at the same time. Unless there is some secret plan to disable the comms network they would use to launch. I’m not optimistic regarding this.
While ever that risk is there, we must tread carefully.
Nukes are supposed to be a deterrent.
One side don’t use mutually so the other doesn’t.
Putin would shat himself if an all out conventional war broke out.
Russia as a nation, its people and infrastructure would be flattened.
It’s at that point the buttons would be pressed.
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... To confirm Putin is all in.
Russian president Vladimir Putin has rejected every off-ramp offered by the US to de-escalate and has, instead, ramped up Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, said US Secretary of State Antony Blinken, reported Reuters.
Really it is unbelievable how the whole world is being held to ransom by this one man.
Putin is all in. You are right. He has a straight flush. He is supremely confident. He had the same hand over Crimea. The West failed to call him though and folded.
However. The will of the Ukrainians and their leader, with the backing of the west and combined global sanctions have dealt his opposition the royal flush.
He just doesn’t know it yet, but he will. And he will stare loss in the face.
At the precipice, about to lose everything. Including the one thing he holds dear. His ego.
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All this talk reminds me of that classic 80s film war games.
Was the computer called the WOPR?
There are some very simple but terrifying concepts within nuclear war strategy.
First strike.
Second strike.
Fail deadly.
Launch on Warning.
Letters of last resort ( listeners of radio 4 take note. This is pretty sobering stuff. Just reading what this entails sends a shiver down your spine)
The Dead Hand ( Russian)
Decapitation strike.
And finally Mutually Assured Destruction MAD.
When one is launched, every single deployable missile around the world would take flight.
Scary scary stuff.
Sleepless nights.
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If Putin's ego is shredded, that's the time to duck. Wonder if the Chinese could hold him back? They'd suffer almost as badly if they couldn't
BobG
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If Putin's ego is shredded, that's the time to duck. Wonder if the Chinese could hold him back? They'd suffer almost as badly if they couldn't
BobG
A couple of dozen nukes across the norther hemisphere f**ks the whole planet. Forever. Every single living thing suffers. And then ceases to exist.
If the blasts don’t kill you the fallout will.
And if the fallout doesn’t kill you, the nuclear winters will (-50C)
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Russia alone has nearly 6,000 warheads.
If that balloon goes up, that's it. Sayonara.
Nothing remains.
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China is crucial now.
Putin has burned his economic bridge to the west, and the only way he can rebuild the Russian economy is by facing towards China and the developing economies outside the western sphere of influence.
China has a continuing interest in trade with the west.
It might not sit too well with them to be tarred with the Putin brush.
On the refugee issue, I never thought I would hear this;
https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1501476623958302722
Beyond shameful from Cooper.
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This one of your guys NR?
https://twitter.com/mi6rogue/status/1501657038476169228
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China is crucial now.
Putin has burned his economic bridge to the west, and the only way he can rebuild the Russian economy is by facing towards China and the developing economies outside the western sphere of influence.
China has a continuing interest in trade with the west.
It might not sit too well with them to be tarred with the Putin brush.
On the refugee issue, I never thought I would hear this;
https://twitter.com/SaulStaniforth/status/1501476623958302722
Beyond shameful from Cooper.
On the refugee situation, I wonder whether anyone will be outraged and tell us that Labour don’t represent them.
FWIIW, I am appalled that the government and the opposition can’t help the Ukranians to come over here.
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It is only a special exercise, allow the 2 Russian backed areas to be controlled by Russia. He has achieved his objective of recognising and supporting these 2 regions. He withdraws gracefully, the vast majority of Russians would know no difference it is a glorious victory for Russia would be the message back in Russia he has driven the evil fascist Nazi enemy out of the 2 regions and given the Ukrainians a lesson don't mess with Russia special exercise complete
It's only the rest of the world that would know the truth.
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This one of your guys NR?
https://twitter.com/mi6rogue/status/1501657038476169228
Jesus. No protective kit. Them EOD guys got balls.
Got a few stories from explosives ranges about pe4 and detonators not going off. Or blinds as they are called.
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I’ll be honest. I have never been so scared about the immediate future since the early 80s, when I thought a ‘Threads’ scenario was inevitable.
The difference being then I was about twelve and very naïve. Now I’m 52, not quite so naïve, but equally frightened about what might happen soon.
God help us.
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Russia alone has nearly 6,000 warheads.
If that balloon goes up, that's it. Sayonara.
Nothing remains.
Only about 1400 are operationally deployable.
Can’t believe I’ve just used the word only. 14 would mean catastrophe on a biblical scale, let alone 1400.
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I’ll be honest. I have never been so scared about the immediate future since the early 80s, when I thought a ‘Threads’ scenario was inevitable.
The difference being then I was about twelve and very naïve. Now I’m 52, not quite so naïve, but equally frightened about what might happen soon.
God help us.
BR, you and I are the same age.
I’ve seen plenty of harrowing stuff.
I’m not one to be un-nerved by much. I don’t flap and have prided myself over the years at being able to remain calm, in situations when most around me are losing it.
But I am genuinely uneasy about this whole situation.
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Hound,
I have made clear that Labour do not speak for me on this.
What Cooper does not seem to understand when she splits hairs about "emergency visas" is that many fleeing a war zone do not have the documentation to complete the visa process, even if that process were reasonable.
As it is not reasonable, with people being moved from pillar to post to meet absurd criteria, then call for it to be removed in the circumstances.
No visa requirement, 1 year stay in which to catch up with the bureaucracy once people are safe.
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Hound,
I have made clear that Labour do not speak for me on this.
What Cooper does not seem to understand when she splits hairs about "emergency visas" is that many fleeing a war zone do not have the documentation to complete the visa process, even if that process were reasonable.
As it is not reasonable, with people being moved from pillar to post to meet absurd criteria, then call for it to be removed in the circumstances.
No visa requirement, 1 year stay in which to catch up with the bureaucracy once people are safe.
Albie, I am aware of your position on the refugee situation and I respect most of your posts as they are very fair.
There are others on the forum though that are very quiet about the Labour stance on this despite posting vehemently against the same government stance, which the opposition are backing.
It is noticeable how quiet those same people are now that Labour have announced their position on this.
Double standards maybe.
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Hound,
I have made clear that Labour do not speak for me on this.
What Cooper does not seem to understand when she splits hairs about "emergency visas" is that many fleeing a war zone do not have the documentation to complete the visa process, even if that process were reasonable.
As it is not reasonable, with people being moved from pillar to post to meet absurd criteria, then call for it to be removed in the circumstances.
No visa requirement, 1 year stay in which to catch up with the bureaucracy once people are safe.
Albie, I am aware of your position on the refugee situation and I respect most of your posts as they are very fair.
There are others on the forum though that are very quiet about the Labour stance on this despite posting vehemently against the same government stance, which the opposition are backing.
It is noticeable how quiet those same people are now that Labour have announced their position on this.
Double standards maybe.
A two bob watch is correct twice a day hound
-
Hound,
I have made clear that Labour do not speak for me on this.
What Cooper does not seem to understand when she splits hairs about "emergency visas" is that many fleeing a war zone do not have the documentation to complete the visa process, even if that process were reasonable.
As it is not reasonable, with people being moved from pillar to post to meet absurd criteria, then call for it to be removed in the circumstances.
No visa requirement, 1 year stay in which to catch up with the bureaucracy once people are safe.
Albie, I am aware of your position on the refugee situation and I respect most of your posts as they are very fair.
There are others on the forum though that are very quiet about the Labour stance on this despite posting vehemently against the same government stance, which the opposition are backing.
It is noticeable how quiet those same people are now that Labour have announced their position on this.
Double standards maybe.
A two bob watch is correct twice a day hound
I see you have nothing to say on this matter so don’t bother posting your usual crap to sway the conversation.
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Hound,
I have made clear that Labour do not speak for me on this.
What Cooper does not seem to understand when she splits hairs about "emergency visas" is that many fleeing a war zone do not have the documentation to complete the visa process, even if that process were reasonable.
As it is not reasonable, with people being moved from pillar to post to meet absurd criteria, then call for it to be removed in the circumstances.
No visa requirement, 1 year stay in which to catch up with the bureaucracy once people are safe.
Albie, I am aware of your position on the refugee situation and I respect most of your posts as they are very fair.
There are others on the forum though that are very quiet about the Labour stance on this despite posting vehemently against the same government stance, which the opposition are backing.
It is noticeable how quiet those same people are now that Labour have announced their position on this.
Double standards maybe.
A two bob watch is correct twice a day hound
I see you have nothing to say on this matter so don’t bother posting your usual crap to sway the conversation.
I have already posted plenty on Britain's pathetic stance on refugees and well before the war started, I think you need to point your accusations on those that enabled the election of a liar and a traitor hound maybe not expose your personal political naivety to the world.
-
Hound,
I have made clear that Labour do not speak for me on this.
What Cooper does not seem to understand when she splits hairs about "emergency visas" is that many fleeing a war zone do not have the documentation to complete the visa process, even if that process were reasonable.
As it is not reasonable, with people being moved from pillar to post to meet absurd criteria, then call for it to be removed in the circumstances.
No visa requirement, 1 year stay in which to catch up with the bureaucracy once people are safe.
Albie, I am aware of your position on the refugee situation and I respect most of your posts as they are very fair.
There are others on the forum though that are very quiet about the Labour stance on this despite posting vehemently against the same government stance, which the opposition are backing.
It is noticeable how quiet those same people are now that Labour have announced their position on this.
Double standards maybe.
A two bob watch is correct twice a day hound
I see you have nothing to say on this matter so don’t bother posting your usual crap to sway the conversation.
I have already posted plenty on Britain's pathetic stance on refugees and well before the war started, I think you need to point your accusations on those that enabled the election of a liar and a traitor hound maybe not expose your personal political naivety to the world.
Your lack of comment on your Parties position on this speaks volumes though, irrespective of what you have said about the government.
Sorry, I should have said the UK government.
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Dribble hound
-
Dribble hound
Is that a recognised by Crufts breed.
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I guess when you boil it all down, those that have stood by and watched or said nothing and voted for them while they lied, broke the law, changed the laws to help themselves, labelled refugees as illegal, deported their own citizens and sucked up t0 the aggressors in this war should not be surprised that the government is confused and unprepared.
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This is a very long thread, but very much required reading to understand where Putin now is.
https://mobile.twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1497993363076915204
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Anyone that used russia as a handybank after 2014 needs to be sent to help out in the Ukraine.
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Hound,
I have made clear that Labour do not speak for me on this.
What Cooper does not seem to understand when she splits hairs about "emergency visas" is that many fleeing a war zone do not have the documentation to complete the visa process, even if that process were reasonable.
As it is not reasonable, with people being moved from pillar to post to meet absurd criteria, then call for it to be removed in the circumstances.
No visa requirement, 1 year stay in which to catch up with the bureaucracy once people are safe.
Albie, I am aware of your position on the refugee situation and I respect most of your posts as they are very fair.
There are others on the forum though that are very quiet about the Labour stance on this despite posting vehemently against the same government stance, which the opposition are backing.
It is noticeable how quiet those same people are now that Labour have announced their position on this.
Double standards maybe.
A two bob watch is correct twice a day hound
I see you have nothing to say on this matter so don’t bother posting your usual crap to sway the conversation.
I have already posted plenty on Britain's pathetic stance on refugees and well before the war started, I think you need to point your accusations on those that enabled the election of a liar and a traitor hound maybe not expose your personal political naivety to the world.
I need to correct you SR. You have not listed about Britain’s pathetic stance on refugees.
You have posted about the governments stance on refugees.
Now answer the question, what is your opinion on the fact that Labour are as one with the government on the visa requirement.
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Your political naivety is showing again hound, the tories are in government and have the majority of the media in tow. Life is fairly simple for me, refugees are human beings and Britain as one of the richest countries in the world, albeit the wealth being concentrated up the the ladder. I have been debating refugees for some time if you care to look at all the threads about refugees in small boats trying to navigate the channel. My main focus of course is to highlight the failings of an incompetent and corrupt government as I think this is the best way to sort most of the problems. So I consider that labour do not want to expose themselves to further culture wars over this. Yes I would like labour to be in a stronger position where they can dictate policy but they are not and not in government, so maybe take this up with those that are quite happy to have an incompetent and corrupt government.
Ask them about the ''friends of russia'' thingy, ask them about £2,000,000 in donations from russian sources ask them if they will be playing tennis with russians, all things that gave confidence for putin to think noone would blink an eye if he walked into the Ukraine.
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Finally....
Chelsea FC owner Roman Abramovich one of seven oligarchs sanctioned by UK government
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60690362
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............. and the 'good' news doesn't stop there...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60680787
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Mmm, so in a very roundabout way it appears that you are not condemning the LP for having the same position as the government that you despise but want to avoid saying as much.
I expected that from you.
I may be politically naive (to a degree I suppose) but you show your true political colours by refusing to answer questions.
It is a total waste of time engaging with you unless the person doing so is on the same side.
One poster in particular was very very critical of the Tories when this visa situation reared its head but he hasn’t uttered a peep about the Labour stance on this.
I suspect that that could be your reason for keeping quiet about it.
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............. and the 'good' news doesn't stop there...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60680787
Hopefully it gives the world time to wean themselves off russian oil and make the inevitable switch to renewables ... a lot quicker.
https://twitter.com/RErbium/status/1501701829608243203
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That didn't last long
''Oil prices rose on Thursday amid confusion over whether major producers would help to plug a gap in supplies from Russia.
The United Arab Emirates had appeared to push members of the Opec producer group to raise output, only for the UAE's energy minister to quash hopes.
The oil price rose more than 3%, after a 17% fall on Wednesday.
"To suggest the oil market is confused would be an understatement," said analyst Stephen Innes.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60680787
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Finally....
Chelsea FC owner Roman Abramovich one of seven oligarchs sanctioned by UK government
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60690362
No match ticket sales, no transfers, no contract extensions, the govt have seized Chelsea FC
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That didn't last long
''Oil prices rose on Thursday amid confusion over whether major producers would help to plug a gap in supplies from Russia.
The United Arab Emirates had appeared to push members of the Opec producer group to raise output, only for the UAE's energy minister to quash hopes.
The oil price rose more than 3%, after a 17% fall on Wednesday.
"To suggest the oil market is confused would be an understatement," said analyst Stephen Innes.
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-60680787
Diesel price at Jet Garage Dunscroft 157.9 yesterday, 161.9 today, no deliveries between the rises, this is pure profiteering
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Finally....
Chelsea FC owner Roman Abramovich one of seven oligarchs sanctioned by UK government
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60690362
No match ticket sales, no transfers, no contract extensions, the govt have seized Chelsea FC
They have around 28000 season ticket holders. I’d imagine they will become hot property. Name your price.
Merch shop has to close too.
Whilst part of me feels a bit for Chelsea supporters.
Part of me says f**k em. They bought into it. They knew what he was. And still is.
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Another escalation
NATO is to warn Russia that it will take direct action in Ukraine if Russian forces deploy unconventional weapons...
It's not clear what that means exactly
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Gas I would think, with all the talk about it recently RD
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Another escalation
NATO is to warn Russia that it will take direct action in Ukraine if Russian forces deploy unconventional weapons...
It's not clear what that means exactly
Be very concerned. Russia will employ false flag tactics to drag us into this. There will be use of an unconventional weapon in Ukraine. Instigated by the Russians. They will say it was Ukrainians that deployed it first. We will fall for it.
This won’t end well.
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''Russia could be planning a chemical or biological weapon attack in Ukraine - and "we should all be on the lookout", the White House has said.
Press secretary Jen Psaki said Russia's claims about US biological weapon labs, and chemical weapon development in Ukraine, were preposterous.
She called the false claims an "obvious ploy" to try to justify further premeditated, unprovoked attacks.
It comes after Western officials shared similar concerns about fresh attacks''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-60683248
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Why on earth would Putin want to "drag us in"?
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Gas I would think, with all the talk about it recently RD
Yes, sorry, I was t clear. I meant what sort of action NATO would take.
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Gas I would think, with all the talk about it recently RD
Yes, sorry, I was t clear. I meant what sort of action NATO would take.
Hopefully warnings will be enough of course.
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Why on earth would Putin want to "drag us in"?
He already has in some respects.
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Why on earth would Putin want to "drag us in"?
He already has in some respects.
There is nothing whatsoever that Putin stands to gain by bring NATO into a shooting match in Ukraine.
At best he gets his arse kicked big time. At worst it's the end of the world.
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Why on earth would Putin want to "drag us in"?
He already has in some respects.
There is nothing whatsoever that Putin stands to gain by bring NATO into a shooting match in Ukraine.
At best he gets his arse kicked big time. At worst it's the end of the world.
You speak the words of a rational person BST.
I’m unsure the same can be said about the actions and words of Putin.
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Putin's rational. There's too much nonsense been talked about him being insane (some of it by me in the initial shock, admittedly).
He is what he's always been. A calculating thug. What's happened here is that for the first time in his life, he's miscalculated. And he knows it.
He's seen what happens to his forces when faced with any sort of modern resistance force. They are shit. The myth of the Russian army has disolved.
That's not to say he won't continue committing bestial war crimes by trying to bomb Ukraine into surrender. But he knows he cannot win this.
What he needs is a way out. That requires skilfull backstage diplomacy by the Americans.
What he absolutely does not need is American troops and planes firing at his forces. That leaves him facing the choice between utter humiliation or escalation.
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Putin's rational. There's too much nonsense been talked about him being insane (some of it by me in the initial shock, admittedly).
He is what he's always been. A calculating thug. What's happened here is that for the first time in his life, he's miscalculated. And he knows it.
He's seen what happens to his forces when faced with any sort of modern resistance force. They are shit. The myth of the Russian army has disolved.
That's not to say he won't continue committing bestial war crimes by trying to bomb Ukraine into surrender. But he knows he cannot win this.
What he needs is a way out. That requires skilfull backstage diplomacy by the Americans.
What he absolutely does not need is American troops and planes firing at his forces. That leaves him facing the choice between utter humiliation or escalation.
His assassination would be one way, would need to be done by a Russian though
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They won't be drawn on what that intervention might be. At the moment they want to keep him guessing.
I suppose it might not be a no fly zone or anything more significant. It could be supplying Ukraine with aircraft and more sophisticated weapons.
I agree he needs a way out but at the moment he's refusing to consider one and instead ramps things up.
For instance, at this point would handing over Eastern Ukraine placate him? Would Ukraine accept it?
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Sweet f**king Jesus. I see the intelligence genes in the Royal Family are being diluted generation on generation.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Nadine_Writes/status/1501637351273074690
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Putin's rational. There's too much nonsense been talked about him being insane (some of it by me in the initial shock, admittedly).
He is what he's always been. A calculating thug. What's happened here is that for the first time in his life, he's miscalculated. And he knows it.
He's seen what happens to his forces when faced with any sort of modern resistance force. They are shit. The myth of the Russian army has disolved.
That's not to say he won't continue committing bestial war crimes by trying to bomb Ukraine into surrender. But he knows he cannot win this.
What he needs is a way out. That requires skilfull backstage diplomacy by the Americans.
What he absolutely does not need is American troops and planes firing at his forces. That leaves him facing the choice between utter humiliation or escalation.
I’m unsure invading Ukraine was “rational”
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Invading Ukraine was rational I think. A big gamble but rational.
He thought the response of Ukraine would only be limited because he'd seen the reaction to Crimea.
I don't think for a minute he expected a full blown war. I think a special military operation was what he thought it would be.
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Putin's rational. There's too much nonsense been talked about him being insane (some of it by me in the initial shock, admittedly).
He is what he's always been. A calculating thug. What's happened here is that for the first time in his life, he's miscalculated. And he knows it.
He's seen what happens to his forces when faced with any sort of modern resistance force. They are shit. The myth of the Russian army has disolved.
That's not to say he won't continue committing bestial war crimes by trying to bomb Ukraine into surrender. But he knows he cannot win this.
What he needs is a way out. That requires skilfull backstage diplomacy by the Americans.
What he absolutely does not need is American troops and planes firing at his forces. That leaves him facing the choice between utter humiliation or escalation.
I’m unsure invading Ukraine was “rational”
It was if you thought the resistance was going to fade away and your advance guard was going to walk into Kyiv.
You didn't have to be insane to make that mistake. Just wrong.
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Sweet f**king Jesus. I see the intelligence genes in the Royal Family are being diluted generation on generation.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Nadine_Writes/status/1501637351273074690
Ah the proud result of centuries of inbreeding
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Invading Ukraine was rational I think. A big gamble but rational.
He thought the response of Ukraine would only be limited because he'd seen the reaction to Crimea.
I don't think for a minute he expected a full blown war. I think a special military operation was what he thought it would be.
That's precisely what the analyst said in the Twitter thread I posted last night.
This talk from Russia about this being a Special Military Operation (not a War) isn't propaganda. It's what Putin thought it would be. He thought it would be an incursion into Kyiv and other major cities to kick out the Govt and install a new one.
There is no way on God's earth he'd have gone in if he knew what was coming.
The job now is to give him a way to get out. Doesn't need us to make an example of him. Ukraine has done that. He knows that Russia is a busted flush. He's not going to invade anywhere else. Just needs this ending with a compromise, rather than escalating.
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I'm not sure he is coming to terms with the idea of compromise. It looks to me like his objectives remain:Crimea Rusdian. Eastern territories Russian with a land bridge to Crimea (hence the unremitting siege on Mariopol.) No NATO or EU and regime change.
He hasn't wavered on any of that yet and it's completely unacceptable to Ukraine.
So far his approach is escalate and escalate.
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They should sing the Ukraine national anthem. Everyone else should go on stage and sign the same, each in their own language.
if it is the usual kitsch-fest, in this environment, that would be an insult.
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The Italian authorities are currently swarming all over a £532 million super yacht believed to belong to none other than Putin himself.
I do hope it is something that actually affects him personally.
I don't think they should call these things yachts, yachts should have a sail. These are sea-palaces.
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Invading Ukraine was rational I think. A big gamble but rational.
He thought the response of Ukraine would only be limited because he'd seen the reaction to Crimea.
I don't think for a minute he expected a full blown war. I think a special military operation was what he thought it would be.
That's precisely what the analyst said in the Twitter thread I posted last night.
This talk from Russia about this being a Special Military Operation (not a War) isn't propaganda. It's what Putin thought it would be. He thought it would be an incursion into Kyiv and other major cities to kick out the Govt and install a new one.
There is no way on God's earth he'd have gone in if he knew what was coming.
The job now is to give him a way to get out. Doesn't need us to make an example of him. Ukraine has done that. He knows that Russia is a busted flush. He's not going to invade anywhere else. Just needs this ending with a compromise, rather than escalating.
He also knows he can flatten every Ukranian town and city until there is no resistence left with NATO coming to their aid.
He doesn't believe Ukraine should exist.
But you think he is looking for a way out? I think you are wrong. He has no reason to stop - and wont stop unless forced to.
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The Antalaya talks have achieved nothing.
Essentially the Russians are still demanding Ukraine surrender.
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The Antalaya talks have achieved nothing.
Essentially the Russians are still demanding Ukraine surrender.
Anyone else think the Ukraine guy should have just stuck one on Lavrov?
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Invading Ukraine was rational I think. A big gamble but rational.
He thought the response of Ukraine would only be limited because he'd seen the reaction to Crimea.
I don't think for a minute he expected a full blown war. I think a special military operation was what he thought it would be.
That's precisely what the analyst said in the Twitter thread I posted last night.
This talk from Russia about this being a Special Military Operation (not a War) isn't propaganda. It's what Putin thought it would be. He thought it would be an incursion into Kyiv and other major cities to kick out the Govt and install a new one.
There is no way on God's earth he'd have gone in if he knew what was coming.
The job now is to give him a way to get out. Doesn't need us to make an example of him. Ukraine has done that. He knows that Russia is a busted flush. He's not going to invade anywhere else. Just needs this ending with a compromise, rather than escalating.
He also knows he can flatten every Ukranian town and city until there is no resistence left with NATO coming to their aid.
He doesn't believe Ukraine should exist.
But you think he is looking for a way out? I think you are wrong. He has no reason to stop - and wont stop unless forced to.
With respect, I think you are putting a retrospective strategy on where we are now. Putin has nothing to gain from this situation now. Shelling Ukrainian cities to obliteration will not "win" him this war. His country will be economically destroyed.
He was expecting a quick knock out win, with minimal sanctions and the presentation of the West with a fait accompli.
He has blown that in a spectacular misjudgement of his own forces' power, and Ukraine's weakness. He's pounding cities now because that is what he has done in the past. Not through any brilliant strategy. He's doing it from an absence of other options. It's like the old saying about incompetent managers: "Something must be done. This is something. Therefore we must do this."
The myth of Putin as the genius geopolitical chess player, being steps ahead of anyone else has evaporated in a fortnight. He's bungled this one on a monumental scale.
But...
He has 7000 nukes. And we need to give him a way out, not push him into a corner. Then get him in the box that he has made for himself and keep him under control until nature takes its course.
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For the record, I think Putin is an evil bas**rd who doesn't deserve to walk the earth. If there was a way of safely assassinating him and I was the only person alive who could do it, I'd volunteer immediately.
But I would prefer to see him live and even stay securely in power, than risk WWIII.
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It might be possible when/if Putin feels he needs a way out.
But right now, he obviously still feels he will achieve all his objectives, the only way to end this sooner is for Ukraine to accept its fate.
So, I suppose we have to keep supplying Ukraine, keep grinding on let the economic sanctions do there work and just hope Russia doesn't escalate further.
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Agree with the last paragraph RD.
Not sure I agree with the second. Putin cannot achieve his objectives because his No1 one was to subdue Ukraine. He's blown that one. I sense he's now floundering not really knowing what to do.
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I don't think Putin can achieve all his objects either, I don't think he can afford it.
But at the moment it looks like he still believes he can achieve everything. Until he changes his mind, the fighting will go on.
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More escalation
The Russians have made a statement threatening European airports if Western countries continue to flood Ukraine with modern weapons systems.
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Doing their best to drag NATO into it
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Putin is the richest man in the world. He is also an autocratic, psychopathic despot in charge of a massive military force. Look at history to see what happens with this type of peron, they don't negotiate or back down - they eiher conqueor or get defeated in battle. There is no point thinking rationally - he isn't rational.
Someone on the radio today said that what he wants is Ukraine with no Ukranians in it. And that shows in his medieval tactics.
Support the Ukranian forces by providing them with arms and munitions (and looking after their families) and put the strongest possible sanctions on Russia to diminish his support at home. I have mentioned before, Russian leaders dont get overthrown by foreign powers - they are deposed at home.
Everyone needs to be prepared for a long attritional battle however - this could go on for years.
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There is no way Ukraine would be allowed to join NATO, end of.
That is one of Putin’s concerns (allegedly). If the West could convince him that it would never sanction Ukraine joining NATO, would he accept that as his ‘face saving way out’ however he ‘sold it’ back in Russia?
My fear is that the longer his invasion stalls, Kyiv holds out & Zelensky remains alive & defiant, Putin will use chemical weapons under the pretext that Ukraine had them & used them first.
He’s used cluster & vacuum bombs on civilians for christs sake so he’s not going to blink at using biological weapons.
As for nukes…..I really, really don’t know. This is someone who is paranoid about catching covid so has had two years virtually ‘shut away’ from anyone apart from his close, nodding, approving lap dogs.
He had military successes in Chechnya, Syria & Crimea because there was little resistance. He’s found an army & a population that will fight to the last man/woman standing.
He is quickly running out of options.
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Putin is afraid of Liberal democracy and his own people.
The big concern Putin has about Ukraine is that it has been turning west. The people in Russia by and large do not see what the west is like but Ukrainians do. If Ukraine becomes a European style nation then Putin knows Russians will start to see the truth of it too.
That's what he fears most.
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Fascinating thread here which both shows the reach of Russian money in London and makes you wonder - if we can't let homeless Ukranian refugees into the country without a visa as they might be a security risk - why is the stepdaughter of Putin's current Foreign Minister not a security risk, free to roam about the country from her mansion in Kensington?
https://twitter.com/pevchikh/status/1501878715709632518
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Putin has said he doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO as then nuclear missiles and NATO troops will be on Russia's border.
Putin has also said he doesn't believe Ukraine should exist but should be absorbed into a Greater Russia. Thus putting Poland (a NATO member) on Russia's border.
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Ukraine WILL eventually fall.
It is the ‘buffer zone’ between the West & Russia Putin has wanted since he became President, possibly before.
He does not ‘recognise’ the events of 1989 when the Berlin Wall fell & Soviet troops left Berlin back to a country in economic, military & political ‘ruin’.
He has watched as the Baltic States along with Poland & Hungary became part of NATO. He believes it is NATO along with the US that have ‘pushed’ so far East they are now ‘knocking on Russia’s door’.
Ukraine will undoubtedly become, as I’ve said before, the ‘sacrificial lamb’ that avoids WW3 & that = nuclear obliteration of the planet.
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Putin has said he doesn't want Ukraine to join NATO as then nuclear missiles and NATO troops will be on Russia's border.
Putin has also said he doesn't believe Ukraine should exist but should be absorbed into a Greater Russia. Thus putting Poland (a NATO member) on Russia's border.
...he also said he wanted Poland and the Baltics to return to the Russian sphere.
He has an admiration for the old USSR. He would like to rebuild it not as a communist state but a new Russian Empire. A fascist, gangsters paradise.
It is not that NATO has pushed east. Nobody has forced the former eastern block states to join the EU and NATO.
It is that the former eastern block has reached west, for prosperity and security.
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More escalation
The Russians have made a statement threatening European airports if Western countries continue to flood Ukraine with modern weapons systems.
Link.?
I’ve been following the BBC ticker on Ukraine regularly. This isn’t on there? Nor was your comment on Poland.
Not saying you’re wrong, but I’d like to see where these things are coming from.?
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More escalation
The Russians have made a statement threatening European airports if Western countries continue to flood Ukraine with modern weapons systems.
Link.?
I’ve been following the BBC ticker on Ukraine regularly. This isn’t on there? Nor was your comment on Poland.
Not saying you’re wrong, but I’d like to see where these things are coming from.?
It's the Daily Express. I know...
But they are quoting an official Russian spokesperson.
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Meanwhile I’ve looked at the Sun’s blog, cos they’re more likely to sensationalise things, and there’s nowt there either..
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Meanwhile I’ve looked at the Sun’s blog, cos they’re more likely to sensationalise things, and there’s nowt there either..
For some reason my phone gives me lots of updates from the Express. Normally it's alarmist stories about imminent horror weather conditions to frighten pensioners. Now though they seem to get Ukraine stories first.
I think they are trying to out sensation the Sun
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1578354/Ukraine-russia-war-live-vladimir-putin-volodymyr-zelensky-latest-Kyiv
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Is the express becoming an outlet for analysts to put out all kinds of what if theories, rather than presenting news of what is really happening.??
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Is the express becoming an outlet for analysts to put out all kinds of what if theories, rather than presenting news of what is really happening.??
Have a look at it. The European airports threat story is coming from an official Russian source. According to the Express.
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Just had one on my phone.
‘Aliens have landed in Blackburn & are taking over peoples bodies’.
It’s about time we had some good news for once!
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Is the express becoming an outlet for analysts to put out all kinds of what if theories, rather than presenting news of what is really happening.??
Have a look at it. The European airports threat story is coming from an official Russian source. According to the Express.
Eventually found it - navigating the express site on my phone is like a blind man in a dark room looking for a black cat that isn’t there..
Regardless of what we may think of the BBC, surely they would have picked up on this.?
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This is the passage in;the express
The Russian foreign ministry spokeswoman said: "We call on EU and NATO countries to stop the thoughtless flooding of the unviable Kyiv regime with the latest weapons systems in order to avoid enormous risk to international civilian aviation and other means of transport in Europe and beyond."
I see no direct threat to any European airport in this text. It may be that they are concerned that surface to air missiles could endanger anything flying over Ukraine.
I don’t see how Russia could start targeting international airports in any case, unless it was through cyber attacks on air traffic control systems .
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This is the passage in;the express
The Russian foreign ministry spokeswoman said: "We call on EU and NATO countries to stop the thoughtless flooding of the unviable Kyiv regime with the latest weapons systems in order to avoid enormous risk to international civilian aviation and other means of transport in Europe and beyond."
I see no direct threat to any European airport in this text. It may be that they are concerned that surface to air missiles could endanger anything flying over Ukraine.
I don’t see how Russia could start targeting international airports in any case, unless it was through cyber attacks on air traffic control systems .
Point taken. It is opaque.
The Russians do have cruise missiles that could feasibly target airports don't they?
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This is the passage in;the express
The Russian foreign ministry spokeswoman said: "We call on EU and NATO countries to stop the thoughtless flooding of the unviable Kyiv regime with the latest weapons systems in order to avoid enormous risk to international civilian aviation and other means of transport in Europe and beyond."
I see no direct threat to any European airport in this text. It may be that they are concerned that surface to air missiles could endanger anything flying over Ukraine.
I don’t see how Russia could start targeting international airports in any case, unless it was through cyber attacks on air traffic control systems .
Point taken. It is opaque.
The Russians do have cruise missiles that could feasibly target airports don't they?
Doh!
Comprehension is so important. I don't normally fall for these stories.
Annoying.
Education is so important, kids.
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They could use cruise missiles, but that would open up the biggest can of worms this planet has ever seen. Except perhaps when the world was in its infancy, and it was full of boiling gas and volcanoes.
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They could use cruise missiles, but that would open up the biggest can of worms this planet has ever seen. Except perhaps when the world was in its infancy, and it was full of boiling gas and volcanoes.
Well that's what the Express were inferring.
I'm more than happy to hold up my hands and point out this headline is misleading and I fell for it.
Read it carefully particularly when it's a publication like the Express
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It is tiring.
Tiring to always have to ask yourself, who is writing this and what do they want.
It has always been like this of course but most don't ask. Now of course the Russians are being fed a story. A story that is not true. But it's coming from a source they believe implicitly. Just as we all believed the BBC in the 60s.
It is difficult to remain objective. Particularly in these days of information overload.
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I have learned something with this war.
We are f**king stupid monkeys.
We are f**king stupid monkeys who will do anything to get ahead.
I don't hate this. It's nature.
Can we rise above nature? I hope so.
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Darwin’s evolution theory.
The battle to survive. To pro create. To compete.
Plants, birds, primates.
Thing is, as a species, we have “evolved” so much, perhaps too much. We have become self defeating.
We will kill ourselves.
Compete and win At all costs. Even at the expense of other species and each other.
The battle between east and west is nothing more than a competition. A multi faceted competition between differing ideologies, cultures and regimes.
Survival of the fittest may be irrelevant if this conflict goes south.
Darwin would turn in his grave.
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We appear to be at war with the natural world.
...we do.
It's f**ked up.
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Putin needs to watch a certain film. And listen very careful to this famous quote from it. I’ve reduced it in size for simplicity.
“ I am leaving soon, and you will forgive me if I speak bluntly. The universe grows smaller every day, and the threat of aggression by any group, anywhere, can no longer be tolerated. There must be security for all or no one is secure. Now, this does not mean giving up any freedom except the freedom to act irresponsibly.
if you threaten to extend your violence, this Earth of yours will be reduced to a burned-out cinder. Your choice is simple: Join us and live in peace, or pursue your present course and face obliteration. We shall be waiting for your answer; the decision rests with you.”
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NR
This is the simple truth of the old hippies.
We simply cannot fight anymore because if we do... There is no future.
No future.
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This is what online discussions SHOULD all aspire to.
Intelligent, informed, wondering, linking of disparate snippets into coherent wholes.
Despite it's subject matter, this is the thread of the decade for me.
.There's been the occasional reversión to type from some, but this thread actually fills me with a bit more hope that humanity could progress if we get through the current b*llocks.
Thank you everybody
BobG
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It would be good for the government to give all the reasons why people such as Abramovich have been sanctioned, so everyone knows.
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It would be equally good to hear why plenty of folk have NOT been sanctioned.
BobG
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Given the rhetoric by some on here it’ll be interesting to see if they take part in this.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60701941
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Says it all I think.
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Given the rhetoric by some on here it’ll be interesting to see if they take part in this.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60701941
Agreed. Given the support some people have given to defund the BBC and rubbishing their output, it's also interesting to see them promote stories on it?
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A map of Russia from just 100 yrs ago explains a lot. Maybe Putin has OCD and just likes straight line borders?
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Given the rhetoric by some on here it’ll be interesting to see if they take part in this.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-60701941
Agreed. Given the support some people have given to defund the BBC and rubbishing their output, it's also interesting to see them promote stories on it?
Well I cancelled my tv licence Wilts if that makes you feel better and removed the ability to receive live tv or stream it
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Interesting article from Washington Post by an ex CIA operative with 30+ years of service - who in Russia should Putin be afraid of
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It won’t open for me on my iPad Dutch.
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It won’t open for me on my iPad Dutch.
Copied and pasted for you idler, hope it is not too long for this site:
Analysts and Russia watchers are batting about the idea that perhaps Russian autocrat Vladimir Putin has become mentally unstable. They point to ranting speeches where Putin seems to invent history out of whole cloth, or his public and cringeworthy dressing down of one of his intelligence chiefs. Then there are the meme-worthy photos of Putin sitting at the end of ridiculously long tables. Some observe that Putin simply doesn’t look well physically — puffy in the face and less steady on his feet. Speculation suggests that all of this is due to the Russian leader’s increased isolation, his surrounding himself with yes-men, or his angst over the bite of widespread economic sanctions the West and other allies have leveled against him since Russia invaded Ukraine. Others say he is afraid of covid-19 and taking draconian precautions.
Putin is indeed afraid, but not of covid. He fears a coup.
The oligarchs aren’t the ones who would turn on Putin. There is something of a power-sharing agreement between Putin and his oligarchical team, but it is one-sided and mostly economic: Putin allows them to run large moneymaking entities in Russia and abroad, and in return, they help him launder his own funds or assist him for whatever else he deems them useful. But the oligarchs have no direct access to hard power, such as police or other armed security forces in Russia.
Nor will the mythical Russian “man on the street” rise up to dethrone Putin. There are Russians who support Putin’s policies, and others who have simply become politically apathetic. Many believe the state propaganda, which is the only news information most Russians can access. While on occasion Russian citizens do protest — sometime in the thousands and tens of thousands — these demonstrations are always forcefully broken up by police and security forces.
The Kremlin allows protests (which they undoubtedly know about in advance due to intelligence work conducted among protest organizers) so that to Westerners, it appears there may be a bit of freedom of speech in Russia after all. This way, Putin can claim to his Western audience that Russians have a right to express their political views. After the riots are over, though, the protesters are often incarcerated or worse.
The real threat to Putin comes from the siloviki, a Russian word used loosely to describe Russia’s security and military elite. These are people like Nikolai Patrushev, currently the secretary of the Russian security council, and Alexander Bortnikov, the head of the Russian Federal Security Service (FSB), as well as other current and former senior security officials.
Men like Patrushev and Bortnikov not only possess hard power, but they know how to use it and are inclined to do so. The FSB includes around 160,000 members of the Border Guard service, as well as thousands of armed personnel with law enforcement authorities. But the strength of the FSB comes not only from its ability to do violence; the organization is also highly secretive. FSB officers are skilled at working clandestinely, keeping their most sensitive operations strictly compartmented to small groups. Putin understands this better than most: He once ran the organization himself.
The siloviki are willing to use this deadly mixture of hard power and secrecy when a serious threat to the Russian kleptocratic system emerges. That’s because the security elite derives their power from the system. The whole operation can flex when threatened; street protests are tolerated to a certain extent, and Russia has withstood lesser Western sanctions in the past. Like branches of an old tree, the kleptocratic autocracy in the Kremlin can withstand the occasional storm, but if the trunk is rotting, the siloviki will take action.
If Russia gets away with using chemical weapons in Britain, what will it try next?
The siloviki are formidable. These are the men who tried to poison opposition leader Alexei Navalny; when that failed, they had him imprisoned, seemingly indefinitely. The heads of the Russian military intelligence service, the GRU, planned and executed the attempted assassination of Sergei Skripal using a Russian military-grade nerve agent. Other siloviki planned the assassination of Alexander Litvinenko, lacing his tea with polonium in a London hotel. Putin, who reportedly approved these operations personally, is only too familiar with the capabilities of the security elite.
Putin and the siloviki are all Chekists at heart. The Cheka was the first modern iteration of an organization that eventually evolved into the KGB. But the organization’s name or structure is less important than the Chekist mentality, which traces its roots back to Vladimir Lenin and later, Joseph Stalin. Both Soviet leaders were fond of leaning into terror as a methodology for controlling Russia, and this tradition has been passed down from one generation of Chekists to the next. On what used to be called “Chekist Day” in Russia (now called with greater political correctness Security Agency Workers Day), Putin would routinely make celebratory phone calls to the senior leaders in what Russians still refer to as their “special services.”
But what likely has the Russian autocrat losing the most sleep these days (and perhaps acting a bit erratically) is that Putin, who takes the time to study history so as to better distort it, cannot have overlooked the coup attempt against Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev in 1991. At the time, the Soviet Union was unraveling. Factories were failing because employees simply stopped showing up for work — because their employers had stopped paying them.
More troubling to the security and military elite, the Soviet republics around the perimeter of the state were beginning to break away, declaring autonomy and even independence. The siloviki were witnessing a massive disruption that they feared would lead to the dissolution of the country — and the power they had amassed — as they had known it for decades. Rather than let the system from which they derived power and riches devolve further, they intervened, detaining Gorbachev while he was vacationing at one of his dachas. In the end, the attempted coup was unsuccessful, but it marked the beginning of the end of Gorbachev’s regime — and the entire Soviet Union.
How to read Vladimir Putin
Putin, with his KGB background, must see the obvious parallels. The West, with great unanimity of effort, has imposed crushing sanctions on Russia, and the kleptocratic system is beginning to feel the pressure.
The first to feel the sanctions will be the oligarchs, who have become accustomed over the years to wringing wealth out of Russia by virtue of the sweetheart deals Putin allows for their businesses. Sanctions on these businesses will gut the oligarchs’ wealth. They’ll have a harder time laundering ill-gotten gains, which means it will be harder for oligarchs and their families to enjoy the money they have stolen from the Russian people. They won’t be able to use their personal jets and yachts (several of which have already been seized by Western governments). Europe, the United States, Canada and several Asian democracies will not grant oligarchs visas. The oligarch class will begin to complain — and then to panic.
Ordinary Russians are already beginning to feel the pinch, with reports of credit cards and electronic payment systems not working. Western goods in stores will be harder to come by, and even harder to buy as the ruble loses value. And due to sanctions on Russian airlines, Russian citizens will be severely limited as to where they can travel outside the country (and maybe even inside the huge landmass, as planes will not receive needed parts and maintenance). Normal Russian citizens will begin to complain. Many will take to the streets, as several thousand already have.
Putin will see little threat from either oligarchs or common Russians. He has mechanisms to repress both, and he has done so effectively in the past. No oligarch will forget the fate of Mikhael Khodorskovskiy, who spent 10 years in prison for challenging Putin politically and is now exiled in London.
And all Russian citizens understand, almost at the genetic level, Putin’s ability to inflict terror and death on demonstrators. Russian opposition figures and journalists don’t want to end up like Boris Nemtsov (shot within shouting distance of the Kremlin) or Ana Politikovskaya (shot in the head in her apartment building).
But the siloviki pose a much more serious danger for Putin. If the security elite perceives the system is rotting, they will do what’s necessary to protect their interests. They have weapons and the personnel to threaten Putin. They know how to operate under Putin’s radar, because they are the ones in charge of the radar itself. And while it is reasonable to assume Putin has some means to monitor the siloviki, he will not be able to follow their actions constantly and with great precision, given all the other issues on his plate.
How to prevent nuclear war: Give Putin a way out
The invasion of Ukraine has triggered a withering response that threatens the viability of the Russian state. As in 1991, the country is at grave risk. The siloviki, watching the slow-motion dissolution of the kleptocratic autocracy that has kept them in power for the past three decades, have the ability to end Putin’s regime. They may decide to act.
Putin would do well to remember the words Felix Dzerzinskiy, the brutal head of the Cheka, uttered over 100 years ago: “We stand for organized terror — this should be frankly admitted. Terror is an absolute necessity during times of revolution.”
The only question remaining is whether the siloviki consider this to be such a time.
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Great article that Dutch , very informative .
Thanks for sharing it .
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Good article, Dutch. The question is, would the siloviki allow Putin to start a nuclear war, which would mean the destruction of their families and loved ones, and the Russian people?
Maybe not, if we're lucky.
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Thanks for the effort Dutch, it's really appreciated.
Lots of food for thought there.
I wonder how much time Putin spends looking over his shoulder?
One thing for sure I bet there are one or two of his siloviki hierarchy thinking of a future without Putin if things carry on deteriorating towards a nuclear outcome.
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I have a confidence that we have people within the service that are attempting to or have already cultivated relationships with persons who are siloviki.
The highest level of espionage.
Agents within the Kremlin close to the inner circle.
It’s something the UK have always been very good at.
Mi6 will have an awareness of what’s going to happen before it actually does.
They may even be in a position to steer and influence.
A lot of talk of Russian influence in London, but trust me, this works both ways.
We may not have uk billionaires owning great swathes of Moscow, but we will have something far, far more valuable.
Influential, powerful Russians on our payroll.
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I have a confidence that we have people within the service that are attempting to or have already cultivated relationships with persons who are siloviki.
The highest level of espionage.
Agents within the Kremlin close to the inner circle.
It’s something the UK have always been very good at.
Mi6 will have an awareness of what’s going to happen before it actually does.
They may even be in a position to steer and influence.
A lot of talk of Russian influence in London, but trust me, this works both ways.
We may not have uk billionaires owning great swathes of Moscow, but we will have something far, far more valuable.
Influential, powerful Russians on our payroll.
Maybe they should have told us about the invasion being planned. putin has had the banks build up their foreign currency reserves since Crimea to a massive level, noone joined the dots?
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I have a confidence that we have people within the service that are attempting to or have already cultivated relationships with persons who are siloviki.
The highest level of espionage.
Agents within the Kremlin close to the inner circle.
It’s something the UK have always been very good at.
Mi6 will have an awareness of what’s going to happen before it actually does.
They may even be in a position to steer and influence.
A lot of talk of Russian influence in London, but trust me, this works both ways.
We may not have uk billionaires owning great swathes of Moscow, but we will have something far, far more valuable.
Influential, powerful Russians on our payroll.
Maybe they should have told us about the invasion being planned. putin has had the banks build up their foreign currency reserves since Crimea to a massive level, noone joined the dots?
No one has any idea of what the UK intelligence people know or knew.
Do you know for sure that we didn’t know that an invasion was being planned.
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do you know for sure what day it is hound?
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do you know for sure what day it is hound?
Once again you prove you can’t engage in sensible conversation.
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Knowing something is going to happen is one thing.
Being in a position to do something about it is another.
Sometimes very high level intelligence simply cannot be acted on, because to do so would put the source(s) at risk.
The British government spend huge amounts of money identifying, cultivating, acquiring and managing covert assets across the world . At all levels including government. They protect them to the enth degree. Even if it means sitting on very very significant intelligence.
Pick your fights. Timeliness.
It would not have gone un noticed that Russia was amassing foreign currency.
It was obviously deemed not necessary , justified or proportionate to react.
I am not privy of course to international levels of intelligence regarding Russia. But the process of international HUMINT gathering is exactly the same as Intel gathering that takes place covertly in every police force up and down the country at local level.
People in key positions who are motivated to share important information about those they work with and/or for. Recruited by those employed to harvest Intel on the given subject.
MI6 will have people in Russian government on the payroll.
Without doubt.
If they haven’t, then it would be pointless having an international security service.
We’ve been doing it for years.
They don’t stop wars. But they put the uk govt and others in a good position to be tactically and strategically aware of what’s coming.
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Are you saying that our intelligence force knew russia was readying for an invasion but didn't bother to tell us? they sure told everyone once the build up began.
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Knowing something is going to happen is one thing.
Being in a position to do something about it is another.
Sometimes very high level intelligence simply cannot be acted on, because to do so would put the source(s) at risk.
The British government spend huge amounts of money identifying, cultivating, acquiring and managing covert assets across the world . At all levels including government. They protect them to the enth degree. Even if it means sitting on very very significant intelligence.
Pick your fights. Timeliness.
Unless you have been part of the Intel world, you perhaps would not understand this.
It would not have gone un noticed that Russia was amassing foreign currency.
It was obviously deemed not necessary , justified or proportionate to react.
This is exactly the point I was making NR.
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Knowing something is going to happen is one thing.
Being in a position to do something about it is another.
Sometimes very high level intelligence simply cannot be acted on, because to do so would put the source(s) at risk.
The British government spend huge amounts of money identifying, cultivating, acquiring and managing covert assets across the world . At all levels including government. They protect them to the enth degree. Even if it means sitting on very very significant intelligence.
Pick your fights. Timeliness.
Unless you have been part of the Intel world, you perhaps would not understand this.
It would not have gone un noticed that Russia was amassing foreign currency.
It was obviously deemed not necessary , justified or proportionate to react.
This is exactly the point I was making NR.
And yet you just said this ................
''No one has any idea of what the UK intelligence people know or knew.
Do you know for sure that we didn’t know that an invasion was being planned''
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The whole intelligence gathering and espionage development scene around this conflict will be deliberate and calculated.
MI6 and CIA will be working 24/7.
Slowly slowly catchy monkey.
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Knowing something is going to happen is one thing.
Being in a position to do something about it is another.
Sometimes very high level intelligence simply cannot be acted on, because to do so would put the source(s) at risk.
The British government spend huge amounts of money identifying, cultivating, acquiring and managing covert assets across the world . At all levels including government. They protect them to the enth degree. Even if it means sitting on very very significant intelligence.
Pick your fights. Timeliness.
Unless you have been part of the Intel world, you perhaps would not understand this.
It would not have gone un noticed that Russia was amassing foreign currency.
It was obviously deemed not necessary , justified or proportionate to react.
This is exactly the point I was making NR.
And yet you just said this ................
''No one has any idea of what the UK intelligence people know or knew.
Do you know for sure that we didn’t know that an invasion was being planned''
Yes it is very straight forward.
No one knew what the British Intelligence people knew.
I don’t think that the general public would have been privy to that information, do you think they would have been.
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The whole intelligence gathering and espionage development scene around this conflict will be deliberate and calculated.
MI6 and CIA will be working 24/7.
Slowly slowly catchy monkey.
You'd better take it up with hound, he says this
''No one has any idea of what the UK intelligence people know or knew.
Do you know for sure that we didn’t know that an invasion was being planned''
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hmmm ............... known knowns and unknown knowns
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The whole intelligence gathering and espionage development scene around this conflict will be deliberate and calculated.
MI6 and CIA will be working 24/7.
Slowly slowly catchy monkey.
You'd better take it up with hound, he says this
''No one has any idea of what the UK intelligence people know or knew.
Do you know for sure that we didn’t know that an invasion was being planned''
You are embarrassing yourself now SR.
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Richard Moore, head of MI6 stated last month that they knew that Russia had been planning this for months. They also knew of a Russian plot to have Zelensky assassinated.
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The whole intelligence gathering and espionage development scene around this conflict will be deliberate and calculated.
MI6 and CIA will be working 24/7.
Slowly slowly catchy monkey.
You'd better take it up with hound, he says this
''No one has any idea of what the UK intelligence people know or knew.
Do you know for sure that we didn’t know that an invasion was being planned''
You are embarrassing yourself now SR.
''No one has any idea of what the UK intelligence people know or knew.
Do you know for sure that we didn’t know that an invasion was being planned''
Modify message
''This is exactly the point I was making NR''
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Richard Moore, head of MI6 stated last month that they knew that Russia had been planning this for months. They also knew of a Russian plot to have Zelensky assassinated.
Sydney seems to think that that information should have gone out on News at Ten. :lol:
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Are you saying that our intelligence force knew russia was readying for an invasion but didn't bother to tell us? they sure told everyone once the build up began.
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Syd. You said the above. Do you think that the intelligence people should have made this common knowledge.
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Are you saying that our intelligence force knew russia was readying for an invasion but didn't bother to tell us? they sure told everyone once the build up began.
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Syd. You said the above. Do you think that the intelligence people should have made this common knowledge.
''No one has any idea of what the UK intelligence people know or knew.
Do you know for sure that we didn’t know that an invasion was being planned''
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The question was directed to you, so do you or did you know?
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The question was directed to you, so do you or did you know?
''No one has any idea of what the UK intelligence people know or knew.
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hound
'See ya. Waste of time.''
hooray
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''US and allies to deny 'most favoured nation' status to Russia, Biden says
President Joe Biden announced that the US, along with the G7 and European Union, will take steps to revoke the “most favoured nation” status designation to Russia, known as permanent normal trade relations in the US.
Biden said the move would hold the Russian president Vladimir Putin, “even more accountable for his aggression against Ukraine.”
the Guardian
How will Russia survive and for how long? where will they get their food and basic necessities from? Will china be able to sustain them to allow for a 'completion' of the invasion? (they will never fully control the Ukraine)
Russian imports of foodstuffs and agricultural raw materials amounted to nearly 34 billion U.S. dollars in 2021. Over the observed period, the highest figure was recorded at over 43 billion U.S. dollars in 2013. Between 2014 and 2015, the imports dropped by more than 13 billion U.S. dollars.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1006520/russia-foodstuffs-and-agricultural-imports/
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Putin is now arresting (not sacking, arresting) leaders of the FSB for failed intel that led him to war.
As some smart folk have said, he went into this war completely misunderstanding what would happen. Now he's venting his wrath on his secret services.
I wonder what they are planning in return?
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It might be worth reading my post about the Lusitania Syd. Post 33 in the DFP thread.
The whole point of secret services is just that. They are secret. In the case of the Lusitania for a helluva lot of people that secret still stands today - more than 100 years later. Of course they're not going to publicise more than is strategically useful. And in any event, their role is principally to advise their polítical masters. What they then do with the Intel is the question we should ALL be asking... I've made it plain times many that our polítical leaders were appraised of the nature of Putin 10 years ago and more.
It is polítics that has led us to where we are today. Not secret services.
BobG
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It might be worth reading my post about the Lusitania Syd. About 1340 from memory.
The whole point of secret services is just that. They are secret. In the case of the Lusitania for a helluva lot of people that secret still stands today - more than 100 years later. Of course they're not going to publicise mire than is strategically useful. And in any evento, their role is principally yo sdvifse their poitical masters. What they do with the Intel is the question we should ALL be asking... Ive Made it plain times many that our polítical leaders were appraised of the nature of Putin 10 years ago and more.
.It is política that has les us tov where we are today. Not secret services.
BobG
I did read your comment and am fully across the role of the service. If you look at the comments above it looks as though some appear to want to claim insider knowledge rather than what is gleaned from the papers. My point is if the service were fully across all this information, why wasn't it passed onto the government? more likely they did know and did pass it on and are exposed yet again as lazy, greedy and incompetent and have to be dragged kicking and screaming into properly helping refugees and sanctioning their sponsors. As you say or imply all this should have been ready to go not death by a thousand cuts.
As with my comment before same thread asking why these oligarchs are now being sanctioned, because nothing has changed in the past couple of weeks, they have been aiding and abetting a dictator and murderer.
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Sorry Syd. I haven't a clue what you are on about. But please just bear in mind thst the principal function of all 3 of Britain,'s secret services is to inform and advise our politicians. With occasional exceptions they are extremely good at it.
You have no grounds whatever to rubbish what they have done wrt Putin. In fact, I'll tell you. You are plain wrong. It is polítics, not spies, that has brought us to where we are today
BobG
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It might be worth reading my post about the Lusitania Syd. About 1340 from memory.
The whole point of secret services is just that. They are secret. In the case of the Lusitania for a helluva lot of people that secret still stands today - more than 100 years later. Of course they're not going to publicise mire than is strategically useful. And in any evento, their role is principally yo sdvifse their poitical masters. What they do with the Intel is the question we should ALL be asking... Ive Made it plain times many that our polítical leaders were appraised of the nature of Putin 10 years ago and more.
.It is política that has les us tov where we are today. Not secret services.
BobG
I did read your comment and am fully across the role of the service. If you look at the comments above it looks as though some appear to want to claim insider knowledge rather than what is gleaned from the papers. My point is if the service were fully across all this information, why wasn't it passed onto the government? more likely they did know and did pass it on and are exposed yet again as lazy, greedy and incompetent GOVERNMENT and have to be dragged kicking and screaming into properly helping refugees and sanctioning their sponsors. As you say or imply all this should have been ready to go not death by a thousand cuts.
As with my comment before same thread asking why these oligarchs are now being sanctioned, because nothing has changed in the past couple of weeks, they have been aiding and abetting a dictator and murderer.
I don't want a 'forever' debate about this BG but if you could show where I rubbished them?
ah I had edited it and missed the word government out, apologies for any confusion.
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Most of this page Syd
BobG
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A lot of blame for what the west is now facing rests squarely at the feet of this government that have refused to accept Russian interference and refuse to make inquiries about it, all the while accepting money for political gain and allowing wholesale laundering of proceeds through the British financial system which if is examined I would would think would dwarf what has been spent on property in London. (the latter is speculation)
Why wouldn't putin feel safe in scaling things up the mayor of london playing tennis for money with his henchmen?
A another point, why the government is confused, being urged on to do more about 'boat people' but now not doing enough, according to the UN convention on refugees which britain signed up to a refugee is a refugee.
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Most of this page Syd
BobG
Put simply, NR who knows all about the security services tells us we have men in putin's uppermost circles, therefore unless the security services exist for their own amusement must have passed all this forward to our government, therefore our government would know about all things russia from the invasion of Ukraine to dirty money and have sat on their hands and watched and waited for it to happen all the while doing nothing.
It's either one or the other.
''Party funding linked to Russia – how much have Tories benefited?''
''The industrialist Alexander Temerko, also a UK national, has donated £357,000 since Johnson took office. He is a minority shareholder and co-owner of a company called Aquind. Its majority investor is the Russian-born oil tycoon Viktor Fedotov.
Another big Tory donor in the Johnson era is the businessman Mohamed Amersi, who has given £258,000 over the period.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/23/oligarchs-funding-tories
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do you know for sure what day it is hound?
Are comments like this really needed?
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do you know for sure what day it is hound?
Are comments like this really needed?
I understand what you mean DO but one has to look at the history, I would find it hard to believe you haven't noticed hounds personal feuds all over the forum and I have him blocked most of the time, occasionally I make the mistake of reading his comments.
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It might be worth reading my post about the Lusitania Syd. About 1340 from memory.
The whole point of secret services is just that. They are secret. In the case of the Lusitania for a helluva lot of people that secret still stands today - more than 100 years later. Of course they're not going to publicise mire than is strategically useful. And in any evento, their role is principally yo sdvifse their poitical masters. What they do with the Intel is the question we should ALL be asking... Ive Made it plain times many that our polítical leaders were appraised of the nature of Putin 10 years ago and more.
.It is política that has les us tov where we are today. Not secret services.
BobG
I did read your comment and am fully across the role of the service. If you look at the comments above it looks as though some appear to want to claim insider knowledge rather than what is gleaned from the papers. My point is if the service were fully across all this information, why wasn't it passed onto the government? more likely they did know and did pass it on and are exposed yet again as lazy, greedy and incompetent and have to be dragged kicking and screaming into properly helping refugees and sanctioning their sponsors. As you say or imply all this should have been ready to go not death by a thousand cuts.
As with my comment before same thread asking why these oligarchs are now being sanctioned, because nothing has changed in the past couple of weeks, they have been aiding and abetting a dictator and murderer.
Who has claimed to have insider knowledge.
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Most of this page Syd
BobG
Put simply, NR who knows all about the security services tells us we have men in putin's uppermost circles, therefore unless the security services exist for their own amusement must have passed all this forward to our government, therefore our government would know about all things russia from the invasion of Ukraine to dirty money and have sat on their hands and watched and waited for it to happen all the while doing nothing.
Or, to put even more simply - did the flow of Russian money into the City of London, fund and embolden Putin in his political ambitions?
If yes - why did the Tory Party allow this to happen
If no - why have they sanctioned people then
And there is plenty of reading material out there freely available without MI5 agents reports.
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As for Military Intelligence - here is todays briefing from the MOD giving an update on the situation on the ground in Ukraine saying among other things that Kharkiv remains surrounded:
https://twitter.com/DefenceHQ/status/1502533211523538944
And here is someone on the ground with contacts in Kharkiv saying it is not and has never been surrounded - the roads to the south and west are still open:
https://twitter.com/RolandOliphant/status/1502564144322682880
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Putin is now arresting (not sacking, arresting) leaders of the FSB for failed intel that led him to war.
As some smart folk have said, he went into this war completely misunderstanding what would happen. Now he's venting his wrath on his secret services.
I wonder what they are planning in return?
This is quite interesting, apparently Putin was fuming that he hadn't been given a true picture of what the situation in Ukraine was like. This had lead to this massive miscalculation.
And the reason he didn't get accurate intelligence? His security services had become too afraid and tended to tell him what he wanted to hear.
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With the whole debate about what did we in the west know, I think we probably knew quite a lot but as NR points out kept it close to our chests.
That said, in the Months before this invasion, they took the unusual decision to start releasing information to the public and all of what they predicted has turned out to be right.
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I don't doubt at all that the 'services' knew what was coming RD but what the government knew would be much greater in orders of magnitude and for far longer, the question is why didn't they get dressed and start working on all the things they should have been doing over the past couple of weeks? Even if they didn't have to implement sanctions and allow for the flow of refugees they should have been ready. We have seen how putin works, a war of terror.
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The uk doubled the size of its battle group in Estonia a full 8 days before Russia crossed the Ukrainian border.
Now, if you know how long it takes logistically and practically to get main battle tanks and all of their logistical support across Europe, this was weeks in the planning. And started way way before February.
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do you know for sure what day it is hound?
Are comments like this really needed?
I understand what you mean DO but one has to look at the history, I would find it hard to believe you haven't noticed hounds personal feuds all over the forum and I have him blocked most of the time, occasionally I make the mistake of reading his comments.
But, but, but, it wasn’t me sir, it was him.
Pathetic Syd.
It is clearly obvious that you don’t have me blocked because of the number of times you pile in when I query anything you have written.
Just be honest and answer questions, it is so easy to do and far less stressful.
No one will take offence if you do.
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The uk doubled the size of its battle group in Estonia a full 8 days before Russia crossed the Ukrainian border.
Now, if you know how long it takes logistically and practically to get main battle tanks and all of their logistical support across Europe, this was weeks in the planning. And started way way before February.
Precisely NR, which was what I had alluded to further up the thread.
None of us mere mortals had a clue about what the intelligence people knew or indeed what had been passed on the government.
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I don't doubt at all that the 'services' knew what was coming RD but what the government knew would be much greater in orders of magnitude and for far longer, the question is why didn't they get dressed and start working on all the things they should have been doing over the past couple of weeks? Even if they didn't have to implement sanctions and allow for the flow of refugees they should have been ready. We have seen how putin works, a war of terror.
As NATO Sec Gen Stoltenberg repeatedly said , we can know all the troop movements, and indicators like blood being moved forward, and what this could mean in terms of capability for launching an invasion at very short notice, but we can never be sure for certain what is actually the intent in Putin's head. The intelligence may well trigger us to take precautionary measures, and then if we are lucky Humint might give an indication when a decision to launch has actually been taken, but Putin has been a past master at making moves that looking threatening and not going ahead.
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One thing is for certain. Conflicts like this are so huge in terms of information, that Putin simply cannot manage it alone.
That means he has to have trusted confidants at his Side advising and directing their next moves.
And the more people he has in this chain, the more people will get to know his intentions. And that is where the weak links are, that international intelligence agencies will be exploiting.
We may not get to what what is actually going on in his head. But he will be discussing his intentions with others. He has to. One man does not control the whole military effort of a huge nation such as Russia.
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do you know for sure what day it is hound?
Are comments like this really needed?
I understand what you mean DO but one has to look at the history, I would find it hard to believe you haven't noticed hounds personal feuds all over the forum and I have him blocked most of the time, occasionally I make the mistake of reading his comments.
Syd, we can have disagreements without them becoming feuds
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The uk doubled the size of its battle group in Estonia a full 8 days before Russia crossed the Ukrainian border.
Now, if you know how long it takes logistically and practically to get main battle tanks and all of their logistical support across Europe, this was weeks in the planning. And started way way before February.
Precisely NR, which was what I had alluded to further up the thread.
None of us mere mortals had a clue about what the intelligence people knew or indeed what had been passed on the government.
To be fair Hound the intelligence regarding the invasion of Ukraine was pretty much spot on in the weeks leading up to it .
I suspect nobody took it as serious as they probably should have done but none the less the intelligence was totally accurate .
Which makes me wonder if we have agents or possibly double agents inside Putin's circle .
I've absolutely no idea of course and i can only speculate but if there's one thing this country is good at it's having top draw secret services even if the politicians are too dumb to listen to them .......... Or conflicted as the case may be even ??
Food for thought maybe .
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The uk doubled the size of its battle group in Estonia a full 8 days before Russia crossed the Ukrainian border.
Now, if you know how long it takes logistically and practically to get main battle tanks and all of their logistical support across Europe, this was weeks in the planning. And started way way before February.
Precisely NR, which was what I had alluded to further up the thread.
None of us mere mortals had a clue about what the intelligence people knew or indeed what had been passed on the government.
To be fair Hound the intelligence regarding the invasion of Ukraine was pretty much spot on in the weeks leading up to it .
I suspect nobody took it as serious as they probably should have done but none the less the intelligence was totally accurate .
Which makes me wonder if we have agents or possibly double agents inside Putin's circle .
I've absolutely no idea of course and i can only speculate but if there's one thing this country is good at it's having top draw secret services even if the politicians are too dumb to listen to them .......... Or conflicted as the case may be even ??
Food for thought maybe .
Tyke, I don’t doubt for one minute that the intelligence people were on the ball.
I would expect that to be the case.
I have no idea why Syd took such a weird stance against my post about what information was or wasn’t fed back to the government.
I think it was reasonable to suggest that the average person wouldn’t have a clue about what was coming back to them.
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do you know for sure what day it is hound?
Are comments like this really needed?
I understand what you mean DO but one has to look at the history, I would find it hard to believe you haven't noticed hounds personal feuds all over the forum and I have him blocked most of the time, occasionally I make the mistake of reading his comments.
Syd. I have just read this post of yours.
I think you are being very harsh in suggesting I have feuds all over the forum.
I have different opinions to some other posters of course but I can also suggest that they have different opinions to me.
So who is wrong there?
I take it you don’t highlight other posters who have continued differences of opinion.
Take BST for example who piles into any post by Dickos.
Is he having a feud or making a different opinion.
Filo and myself have had a series of differences on here on the off topic section but neither of us have ever got abusive or got to the “having a feud” state.
On the other hand, I have received quite a bit of personal abuse from you over time, calling me things like leg shagger for example and only yesterday, dribble hound.
I would suggest that you take a look in the mirror before calling me out.
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This is just a footy forum.
But I do wonder how some on here would cope if a Ukraine situation was ever imposed on the uk.
Hypothetical of course, but some people really need to have a good look at themselves.
Moan, criticise, mock, question, argue, insult, berate, seems to be a default for some on here.
I’m the first to moan when the team are not performing, but I try my very best to not go head to head with strangers on here.
I always told my sons, never say or do anything to anyone online that you would not do or say in their presence. Face to face.
I met a charming chap and his Mrs at the boozer pre match at wimbledon. Me and my lad sat and had a beer with them. He realised through convo who I was as I suggested that boozer as a meet up. He said he enjoyed reading the waffle i put on here.
Ask yourself this. If some of you on here met in person would you be friendly with each other? Because I get the distinct impression some of you would want to kick the crap out if each other.
And that just does not seem right.
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There is a case to be made for the tory party itself to be sanctioned.
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Point by point examination of circumstances.
The intelligence report on Russia. (from wiki)
By June 2020, the report had still not been released, and the Intelligence and Security Committee had not been convened, the longest gap since the committee's creation in 1994.[13] This prompted a cross-party group of 30 MPs to urge the committee to be reconstituted and the report to be published, writing that serious issues of "transparency and integrity" of the democratic process were raised by the withholding of the report.[13]
According to the report, there is substantial evidence that Russian interference in British politics is commonplace.[3][4] According to the Guardian, the main points of the report are:[2]
UK government failed to investigate evidence of successful interference in democratic processes
‘Credible open-source commentary’ suggesting Russia sought to influence Scottish independence referendum
Russian influence in the UK is ‘the new normal’
Links between Russian elite and UK politics
Intelligence community ‘took its eye off the ball’ on Russia
UK’s paper-and-pencil voting system makes direct interference harder
Defending UK’s democratic processes is a ‘hot potato’
Errors in Salisbury poisoning and weapons watchdog hack do not diminish Moscow threat
New legislation needed to replace outdated spy laws.
The report describes the United Kingdom as one of Russia's "top targets" and said it is "seen as central to the Western anti-Russian lobby".[16]
Since the government had not authorised any investigation into the matter, the committee found no evidence that Russian interference had affected the Brexit referendum. Any such attempt without specific authorisation was not within the purview of British intelligence services as any such actions by the security services themselves could be seen as interference, itself undermining democracy.[17]
However, the report did discover some evidence of co-ordinated interference in online narratives following the 2014 Scottish independence referendum in efforts to spread uncertainty over the result.[18][19][20]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_and_Security_Committee_Russia_report#:~:text=%22The%20Russia%20report%22%20is%20the,the%202014%20Scottish%20independence%20referendum.
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There is a case to e made for the tory party itself to be sanctioned.
Yes it's called a GE Sydney .
You can vote for who you want and nobody at the polling station will influence you .
Long may that be the case .
Unless you want the Russian way and elect a Labour government .
Just saying like .........??
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''Johnson's government refused to release the report to the public before the general election in December 2019.[
The Prime Minister approved its release on 13 December 2019, the day after the general election''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_and_Security_Committee_Russia_report#:~:text=%22The%20Russia%20report%22%20is%20the,the%202014%20Scottish%20independence%20referendum.
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Does this have something to do with the Ukraine SR or should it be on a separate thread.
Asking in a nice polite way.
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do you know for sure what day it is hound?
Are comments like this really needed?
I understand what you mean DO but one has to look at the history, I would find it hard to believe you haven't noticed hounds personal feuds all over the forum and I have him blocked most of the time, occasionally I make the mistake of reading his comments.
Syd, we can have disagreements without them becoming feuds
then it's not me you should be addressing this to, aye Ldr
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''Conservative Friends of Russia group disbands with immediate effect
After 10 years of operation, the Westminster Russia Forum, formerly known as the Conservative Friends of Russia, has suddenly disbanded''
''London is undisputed the global capital for Russians to launder money. In 2008, The UK government’s golden visa scheme was launched to allow the wealthiest people a fast track to British citizenship. A mere £2m got you and your family settled status in five years. For the super-wealthy, a mere £10m got you and your family there in just two years. This visa scheme was of concern to many. The project was insecure with worries around the efficiency of checks made on origins of wealth.
Parliament’s intelligence and security committee recommended in its Russia report, published in July 2020, that there should be an “overhaul” of the golden visa programme. Nothing happened.
A foreign affairs select committee report, produced four years ago, endorsed by Priti Patel as a backbench member, said ministers were risking national security by “turning a blind eye” to Russian “dirty money” flowing through the City of London. Yet again, the government took no action''
https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/politics/conservative-friends-of-russia-group-disbands-with-immediate-effect/
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Andrew Adonis twitter
“The Westminster Russian forum, previously “Conservative friends of Russia” which lobbied for pro Russia funding for cash for Conservative MPs & party operations is being wound up”
Its list of donors should be published and handed to the police and sanctions advisers
3:23 PM · Mar 5, 2022''
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''Johnson's government refused to release the report to the public before the general election in December 2019.[
The Prime Minister approved its release on 13 December 2019, the day after the general election''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_and_Security_Committee_Russia_report#:~:text=%22The%20Russia%20report%22%20is%20the,the%202014%20Scottish%20independence%20referendum.
Sydney I'm not going to even make a case for the fact the Tory Party is absolutely swimming in dirty Russian money .
The Russian money was called out years ago by Jeremy Corbyn and nobody listened .
My point is the left that I come from may not win elections but history tends to be on our side .
Dependency on imports , Scargill told you so .
We aren't electable but don't whinge to me .
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Andrew Adonis
''Vitally important that Boris Johnson today give an undertaking that the Conservative Party will ensure that donor details of the “Conservative Friends of Russia”, just wound up after raising tens of millions for the party, are not destroyed. Vital Ukraine sanctions data here
7:52 PM · Mar 5, 2022·Twitter for iPhone''
hmmm 'tens of millions' for the tory party, what a lot of money and influence
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''Johnson's government refused to release the report to the public before the general election in December 2019.[
The Prime Minister approved its release on 13 December 2019, the day after the general election''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_and_Security_Committee_Russia_report#:~:text=%22The%20Russia%20report%22%20is%20the,the%202014%20Scottish%20independence%20referendum.
Sydney I'm not going to even make a case for the fact the Tory Party is absolutely swimming in dirty Russian money .
The Russian money was called out years ago by Jeremy Corbyn and nobody listened .
My point is the left that I come from may not win elections but history tends to be on our side .
Dependency on imports , Scargill told you so .
We aren't electable but don't whinge to me .
it was you that posted this not five minutes ago Tyke?
''Unless you want the Russian way and elect a Labour government''
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I noted that the UKs golden visa scheme was launched in 2008.
Who brought that rule in then?
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One thing is for certain. Conflicts like this are so huge in terms of information, that Putin simply cannot manage it alone.
That means he has to have trusted confidants at his Side advising and directing their next moves.
And the more people he has in this chain, the more people will get to know his intentions. And that is where the weak links are, that international intelligence agencies will be exploiting.
We may not get to what what is actually going on in his head. But he will be discussing his intentions with others. He has to. One man does not control the whole military effort of a huge nation such as Russia.
But why would Putin be directing the military operation? That's what he has military leaders and chief's of staff for. He has never served in the military himself or ever really be known to speak about campaigns or tatics.
He is a political leader with political objectives - wipe Ukraine off the map. Exactly how they do that he will have left to the military. Putin's not going to be moving tanks around or ordering bombers out - he is going to be looking for the scapegoats when they haven't done what they said they could do in the time.
Have you forgotten the Security Council Meeting he had when they all looked scared to death
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/02/22/the-personal-politics-of-putins-security-council-meeting-a76522
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For anyone looking to make political points, the Golden Visa scheme.
Following labours success in saving the UK economy from the Global Financial Crisis labour launched the Golden Visa Scheme to boost the economy and maintain the gains, it ran for no more than 18 months before the country elected Cameron, the scheme has run right up to the point where Russia started it's invasion of the Ukraine, that would have been 12 years in May.
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Cheers for answering my question Syd.
Most unusual of you, but thanks anyway.
So it was the Labour government who instigated it and it ran until they lost the 2010 GE.
I wonder whether it would have continued through the next decade had they won in 2010.
What do you think would have happened?
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The Golden Visa scheme was actually launced by the Tories in 1994 - Labour justed widened the criteria of an existing scheme in 2008.
It's not the scheme per-se that has been the problem. It is the checks or lack-off, despite numerous warnings and promises by successive Tory governments.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/07/golden-visa-oligarch-super-rich-british-citizenship-global
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/60348046
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He did it in Grozny. But that didn't matter because it was jihadis in Asia.
He did it in Aleppo. But that didn't matter because it was jihadis in Asia.
He's doing it this very moment to blonde, white Europeans.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/satellite-images-show-fires-severe-damage-residential-buildings-mariupol-2022-03-12/
He is evilness personified.
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The Golden Visa scheme was actually launced by the Tories in 1994 - Labour justed widened the criteria of an existing scheme in 2008.
It's not the scheme per-se that has been the problem. It is the checks or lack-off, despite numerous warnings and promises by successive Tory governments.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/07/golden-visa-oligarch-super-rich-british-citizenship-global
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/60348046
thanks wilts
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Cheers for answering my question Syd.
Most unusual of you, but thanks anyway.
So it was the Labour government who instigated it and it ran until they lost the 2010 GE.
I wonder whether it would have continued through the next decade had they won in 2010.
What do you think would have happened?
Way back in the mists of page 7 - if Corbyn and McDonnell had got in they would have scrapped it along with introducing other anti-money laudering regulation
https://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=283806.msg1141203#msg1141203
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''The Shadow Chancellor has today called on Philip Hammond to introduce six measures, including the “Oligarch Levy”, to strengthen the UK’s hand in imposing effective sanctions on Russia and breaking up secretive offshore financial networks used by the oligarchs''
''Labour’s six-point plan to take on the oligarchs:
“Oligarch Levy” to tax secret offshore purchases of UK residential property
“Magnitsky Clause” to apply sanctions against human rights abusers
Tighten “Politically Exposed Person” regime
Extend the beneficial ownership register for Crown Dependencies and Overseas Territories and end anonymous trusts
Implement Unexplained Wealth Orders to confiscate illegally-obtained wealth
Resource Companies House to properly investigate dubious company registrations''
Thanks wilts, and yet they are all the same .............. hmmmm
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The Golden Visa scheme was actually launced by the Tories in 1994 - Labour justed widened the criteria of an existing scheme in 2008.
It's not the scheme per-se that has been the problem. It is the checks or lack-off, despite numerous warnings and promises by successive Tory governments.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/dec/07/golden-visa-oligarch-super-rich-british-citizenship-global
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/60348046
Cheers wilts, that is much more clearly explained.
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''Johnson's government refused to release the report to the public before the general election in December 2019.[
The Prime Minister approved its release on 13 December 2019, the day after the general election''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_and_Security_Committee_Russia_report#:~:text=%22The%20Russia%20report%22%20is%20the,the%202014%20Scottish%20independence%20referendum.
Sydney I'm not going to even make a case for the fact the Tory Party is absolutely swimming in dirty Russian money .
The Russian money was called out years ago by Jeremy Corbyn and nobody listened .
My point is the left that I come from may not win elections but history tends to be on our side .
Dependency on imports , Scargill told you so .
We aren't electable but don't whinge to me .
it was you that posted this not five minutes ago Tyke?
''Unless you want the Russian way and elect a Labour government''
There are your Labour governments and there's mine Sydney which is where we differ .
Whilst you see a red rosette as everything is in order I seriously question that .
A point you continually prove the case .
I'm comfortable with my old school left wing views .
History cannot ever be re-written and the left have always told you what the possibilities were .
The prominent players told you so .
Electable , not a chance .
But there you are .
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''Johnson's government refused to release the report to the public before the general election in December 2019.[
The Prime Minister approved its release on 13 December 2019, the day after the general election''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intelligence_and_Security_Committee_Russia_report#:~:text=%22The%20Russia%20report%22%20is%20the,the%202014%20Scottish%20independence%20referendum.
Sydney I'm not going to even make a case for the fact the Tory Party is absolutely swimming in dirty Russian money .
The Russian money was called out years ago by Jeremy Corbyn and nobody listened .
My point is the left that I come from may not win elections but history tends to be on our side .
Dependency on imports , Scargill told you so .
We aren't electable but don't whinge to me .
it was you that posted this not five minutes ago Tyke?
''Unless you want the Russian way and elect a Labour government''
There are your Labour governments and there's mine Sydney which is where we differ .
Whilst you see a red rosette as everything is in order I seriously question that .
A point you continually prove the case .
I'm comfortable with my old school left wing views .
History cannot ever be re-written and the left have always told you what the possibilities were .
The prominent players told you so .
Electable , not a chance .
But there you are .
just in case it has slipped your mind we are discussing the Russian invasion of the Ukraine and the events that led to them having the confidence to think they would be virtually unopposed
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The uk doubled the size of its battle group in Estonia a full 8 days before Russia crossed the Ukrainian border.
Now, if you know how long it takes logistically and practically to get main battle tanks and all of their logistical support across Europe, this was weeks in the planning. And started way way before February.
Agreed NR, but that shouldn't have precluded having a list of sanction targets at the ready to implement directly and for them to have clear lines of communications ready for the inevitable flood of refugees we know will result from a war of terror. Why did the government have to be urged and shamed into doing this?
And of course why do we have to put up with the constant lies from johnson about having the toughest sanctions when clearly this was untrue?
This is directed at anyone who cares to read and think about it.
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£350 a month for a spare room for a refugee is surprisingly generous for this government.
Perhaps they are begining to grasp what a PR disaster this been.
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yes a surprising but good move RD
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But as I've said before.
Start by requisitioning the penthouse flats in London that Russian kleptocrat Tory donors have bought as investments and that they keep empty.
What more symbolic action could a UK Govt take.
And don't come with the shite about property laws. Take the apartments. Give them to refugees. And challenge the kleptocrats to take legal action.
And if they do, change the law.
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But as I've said before.
Start by requisitioning the penthouse flats in London that Russian kleptocrat Tory donors have bought as investments and that they keep empty.
What more symbolic action could a UK Govt take.
And don't come with the shite about property laws. Take the apartments. Give them to refugees. And challenge the kleptocrats to take legal action.
And if they do, change the law.
Good point, no easier way to find out who the real owners are by commandeering them for the war effort, if noone claims them all well and good they can be converted into public housing over time.
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But as I've said before.
Start by requisitioning the penthouse flats in London that Russian kleptocrat Tory donors have bought as investments and that they keep empty.
What more symbolic action could a UK Govt take.
And don't come with the shite about property laws. Take the apartments. Give them to refugees. And challenge the kleptocrats to take legal action.
And if they do, change the law.
Good point, no easier way to find out who the real owners are by commandeering them for the war effort, if noone claims them all well and good they can be converted into public housing over time.
you could do that but how do you expect the refugees to run the expensive apartments, how will they pay the council tax ect.?
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Presumably the £350 per room/month could go direct to refugees or sell the properties and use the money to help pay for them.
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Warning this will make uncomfortable reading for some .............
''The Tories claim we are worse than we are – and it’s the Ukrainians who suffer''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/12/tories-claim-we-are-worse-than-we-are-and-its-ukrainians-who-suffer
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Leaked documents from Russian Army show invasion of Ukraine was approved on 18th January with plan for the campaign to last 2 weeks from 20th February to 6th March.
Its now Day 18/19 and the Russians are fighting a campaign they hadn't planned for. How long can that continue?
https://twitter.com/LatestAnonPress/status/1502763321463869441
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Leaked documents from Russian Army show invasion of Ukraine was approved on 18th January with plan for the campaign to last 2 weeks from 20th February to 6th March.
Its now Day 18/19 and the Russians are fighting a campaign they hadn't planned for. How long can that continue?
https://twitter.com/LatestAnonPress/status/1502763321463869441
Interesting though wilts that there are now leaked documents from the Russian Army.
Could some dissent now be coming along.
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Leaked documents from Russian Army show invasion of Ukraine was approved on 18th January with plan for the campaign to last 2 weeks from 20th February to 6th March.
Its now Day 18/19 and the Russians are fighting a campaign they hadn't planned for. How long can that continue?
https://twitter.com/LatestAnonPress/status/1502763321463869441
After a bit of a google this story first surfaced on the 2/3, which was a surprise as it didn't make headlines wilts. I would have though more would have been made of it then.
''Ukraine revealed secret battle plans left behind by Russian troops and claimed they show Russia planned a 15-day war''
https://www.businessinsider.com.au/ukraine-revealed-secret-battle-plans-left-behind-by-russian-troops-2022-3
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The guy who runs Guido Fawkes tells us in his own words how he became mates with a Russian spy, and how he got funding from the Russian Embassy.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JolyonMaugham/status/1502704515556024322
Which might be nothing.
Except...oh yeah.
When the journalist Carole Cadwalladr started digging into Russian influence in our elections, Guido suddenly started doing literally dozen of abusive hit jobs on her.
It's all happened in plain sight. We are too f**king stupid to realise it.
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So if the Tories are funded by the Russians, and Labour are funded by the Chinese (at least one is, more wouldn't surprise) WHO IS ACTUALLY WORKING FOR US?
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ONE idiot in the Labour party took Chinese money. He's nowhere near the front bench and hopefully will be deselected.
The Tory party takes Russian money on an industrial scale. They run auctions for kleptocrats to buy dinner time with senior ministers. They take multiple hundreds of thousands of pounds donations.
But in some bone idle minds, the two are equal.
We probably don't have the sophistication to operate as a democracy.
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Billy chill, its an facetious observation. It does make you wonder though who is working for us and who is not
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With respect, it is hardly the time for being facetious.
One of out major political parties has been in hock for a decade to kleptocrats from a country that is carpet bombing innocent civilians two and a half hours away. The other one is not. That is a bald fact.
One of our major parties is headed by a man who has very close social ties to the son of a KGB colonel, and has elevated him to the House of Lords. The other leader of a major party has no record of fraternising with powerful people from a hostile state. That is a bald fact.
At some point, people need to open their eyes and look at what is happening in plain view.
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Leaked documents from Russian Army show invasion of Ukraine was approved on 18th January with plan for the campaign to last 2 weeks from 20th February to 6th March.
Its now Day 18/19 and the Russians are fighting a campaign they hadn't planned for. How long can that continue?
https://twitter.com/LatestAnonPress/status/1502763321463869441
Interesting though wilts that there are now leaked documents from the Russian Army.
Could some dissent now be coming along.
Lets hope so hound. I have read that the reason Belarus have yet to join in with any significant numbers is that when they were ordered to do so the soldiers refused to go and the officers had to be replaced by Russian ones:
https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/belarusalert/belarusian-military-reluctant-to-join-vladimir-putins-ukraine-war/
https://charter97.org/en/news/2022/3/5/457699/
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From 2007 onwards the Russian government paid the Daily Telegraph (reputedly c£500000 per year) to run a more pro-Russian and anti-Europe line.
This included money to the star correspondent for the Telegraph, one Alexander Johnson, who began blaming the EU for the Russian invasion of Crimea.
Long thread here:
https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1502763923812065287
and here
https://twitter.com/archer_rs/status/1503004574604574721
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I'm struggling to understand what this war is all about... Other than Vlads ego.
Basically Russia plays by the same rules as the west now. Only more corrupt. If that's the system Putin wants to promote he was having far more success and much more cheaply buying people off and paying bribes.
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I'm struggling to understand what this war is all about... Other than Vlads ego.
Basically Russia plays by the same rules as the west now. Only more corrupt. If that's the system Putin wants to promote he was having far more success and much more cheaply buying people off and paying bribes.
I think a part of this is Putins own mortality. He is 69 now. And if the rumours are right, he might not be in the best of health. Physically and/ or mentally.
There’s a big driving force right there.
The now or never attitude.
He think he will leave a legacy he will be remembered by. By re conquering Ukraine as Russian. Re uniting it with the Motherland.
He will be remembered. But not in the way he would have dreamed of.
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Hopefully he will be remembered in the same vein as Hitler ot Mussolini, preferably Mussolini, executed by his own people and hung from a petrol station canopy
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Putin's Russia.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KevinRothrock/status/1502761903046774786
A state as f**ked up as this cannot survive indefinitely.
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You know the Rothschilds realised years ago that if you want real power you only need to be in control of the purse strings.
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As more and more information is leaked or pushed out it looks like there has been a large bunch of self serving fools ready to accept the rouble to spread lies and crap about anything and everything that plays into Russian favour.
It is now time for an overarching commission of inquiry into wtf has been going on that has corrupted our government and media?
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If you missed this when it was first published, here it is:
How Ben Elliot supercharged Tory donations by targeting world’s ultra-wealthy
This article is more than 5 months old
Well-connected Old Etonian has shifted party towards accepting money from those with deep pockets – and offshore links
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/oct/05/how-ben-elliot-supercharged-tory-donations-by-targeting-worlds-ultra-wealthy
How can foreign money be allowed to influence political parties????
-
From 2007 onwards the Russian government paid the Daily Telegraph (reputedly c£500000 per year) to run a more pro-Russian and anti-Europe line.
This included money to the star correspondent for the Telegraph, one Alexander Johnson, who began blaming the EU for the Russian invasion of Crimea.
Long thread here:
https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1502763923812065287
and here
https://twitter.com/archer_rs/status/1503004574604574721
It's even more stark than that Wilts.
In 2007, as you say, the Russian Govt started paying the Telegraph £480k per year.
Later that year, the Telegraph upped the salary of one of its star reporters from £25k per annum to £247k.
That star reporter then, having previously written frivolous pieces about straight bananas and Italians complaining that Euro condoms were too long, started writing articles that were increasingly supportive of Putin's Russia, and increasingly virulently aggressive against the EU.
In 2014, that star reporter wrote a piece blaming the EU for fomenting trouble in Ukraine and forcing Putin's hand. Exactly the Kremlin line.
See if you can guess who the star reporter was...
A clue. It's the same person who has consistently refused to order the security services to investigate Russian interference in our elections.
It's the same person who, as Foreign Secretary, attended a NATO meeting on the Salisbury poisoning, then went straight to an undocumented 1-2-1 private meeting with the son of a KGB colonel.
There's quite a weight of evidence emerging that our PM is actually a Russian agent.
-
Doesn't look like he ever stopped ...........
''Boris Johnson blamed the EU for provoking Russia’s earlier attacks on Ukraine in 2014 and was branded a “Putin apologist” amid a storm of criticism.
The comments – made at the heart of the Brexit referendum battle, in 2016 – led to the future prime minister being likened to then Ukip leader Nigel Farage and being rebuked by Downing Street''
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/boris-johnson-ukraine-russia-brexit-b2024817.html
-
''Boris Johnson is facing a fierce backlash after he hit back at David Cameron's claim Brexit could lead to war in Europe by saying EU policy had actually stoked tensions in Ukraine.
Mr Johnson's comments, made during a speech billed as his "biggest intervention" in the EU campaign so far, sparked anger and claims that he was a "Putin apologist".
The former London Mayor said the Prime Minister's claim the European Union maintained peace on the continent was "not the most powerful argument" he had heard.
He said NATO was responsible for keeping the peace and it was "important we don't muddle up the role of the EU and the role of NATO".
https://news.sky.com/story/johnson-accused-of-being-putin-apologist-10275259
remind me again why some are saying the same?
-
From 2007 onwards the Russian government paid the Daily Telegraph (reputedly c£500000 per year) to run a more pro-Russian and anti-Europe line.
This included money to the star correspondent for the Telegraph, one Alexander Johnson, who began blaming the EU for the Russian invasion of Crimea.
Long thread here:
https://twitter.com/nicktolhurst/status/1502763923812065287
and here
https://twitter.com/archer_rs/status/1503004574604574721
It's even more stark than that Wilts.
In 2007, as you say, the Russian Govt started paying the Telegraph £480k per year.
Later that year, the Telegraph upped the salary of one of its star reporters from £25k per annum to £247k.
That star reporter then, having previously written frivolous pieces about straight bananas and Italians complaining that Euro condoms were too long, started writing articles that were increasingly supportive of Putin's Russia, and increasingly virulently aggressive against the EU.
In 2014, that star reporter wrote a piece blaming the EU for fomenting trouble in Ukraine and forcing Putin's hand. Exactly the Kremlin line.
See if you can guess who the star reporter was...
A clue. It's the same person who has consistently refused to order the security services to investigate Russian interference in our elections.
It's the same person who, as Foreign Secretary, attended a NATO meeting on the Salisbury poisoning, then went straight to an undocumented 1-2-1 private meeting with the son of a KGB colonel.
There's quite a weight of evidence emerging that our PM is actually a Russian agent.
You could argue that there's a case for treason here Billy with all things on the table .
Not that it will ever happen mind but none the less .
Step back in time and how this country would have judged this in the 1940's or earlier .
-
Is putin going to push NATO into direct conflict with the intent of dragging in China to his aid?
The hard heads of Europe and the US will be looking at the latest attack near Poland and trying to outthink and out manoeuvre putin in his gross violations of human rights and war of terror. Maybe leave johnson on the bench for the duration.
-
There could be real trouble here with Putin asking the Chinese for military equipment.
Hopefully the Chinese understand how very serious this war is for the global economy.
Any action like this would be another escalation and see the globe effectively divide into two opposing power blocks.
-
Well, if the Govt won't do it ...
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/putin-go-f-yourself-squatters-move-into-oligarchs-london-mansion-316013/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=tlb2
That's Deripaska's (sic) £25m London pad, paid for by stolen gangster money.
-
Putin’s invasion of Ukraine has saved Bozo’s neck.
Buried now the investigation into whether he not only broke the covid rules whilst attending Downing Street parties during lockdown, but in doing so left himself open to the police taking some form of action against him.
I wish him nothing but ill.
-
Putin is sub-human. He is a f**king animal.
This is beyond disgusting.
https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-60733921
Anyone who supports what he is doing here has lost the right to be treated with any respect.
-
Well, if the Govt won't do it ...
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/putin-go-f-yourself-squatters-move-into-oligarchs-london-mansion-316013/?utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=tlb2
That's Deripaska's (sic) £25m London pad, paid for by stolen gangster money.
Here's a thought.
If there was an empty house on your street and squatters moved in, do you think a dozen tooled up riot plod would turn up within a few hours to hoy them out?
https://mobile.twitter.com/g_gosden/status/1503362929428766720
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What is the bravest thing you have ever done:
https://twitter.com/avalaina/status/1503447615807049731
The sign says:
“Stop the war
Don’t believe propaganda
They’re lying to you”
and she is chanting, 'Stop the War, No to War'
Her name is Maria Ovsyanikova and we will most likely never see her again.
-
What is the bravest thing you have ever done:
https://twitter.com/avalaina/status/1503447615807049731
The sign says:
“Stop the war
Don’t believe propaganda
They’re lying to you”
and she is chanting, 'Stop the War, No to War'
Her name is Maria Ovsyanikova and we will most likely never see her again.
It is beyond belief that people do this knowing the result is 99% likely to result in 15years in a russian jail.
-
Marina Ovsyannikova
This woman is a real life heroine.
That’s real courage to do what she has.
-
And all the journalists in Ukraine that put their lives on the line every day so we can have a better view.
Brent Renaud - US journalist killed in Ukraine
''Brent Renaud, 50, was a journalist and filmmaker and was shot dead in the town of Irpin, outside Kyiv.
He had been working in the region at the time of his death.
Kyiv's police chief Andriy Nebytov said he had been targeted by Russian soldiers. Two other journalists were injured and taken to hospital.
It is the first reported death of a foreign journalist covering the war in Ukraine.
Renaud had reported from Afghanistan, Iraq and Haiti. He won a Peabody Award for his work on a 2014 series on Chicago schools, Last Chance High.
He often worked alongside his brother, Craig, also a filmmaker. It is not known whether Craig also travelled to Ukraine.
Photographs are circulating online showing a press ID for Renaud issued by the New York Times.
In a statement, the newspaper said it was "deeply saddened" to hear of Renaud's death but that he had not been working for the newspaper in Ukraine''
from the Guardian
-
No guessing who's on the next bus to the gulag
Aric Towler twitter
''The best part of the news of Russia begging China for MREs: guess who got the corrupt government tender to provide the MoD with food? Forbes Russia detailed how 92% of the business went to firms linked to Prigozhin:
https://forbes.ru/kompanii/potrebitelskii-rynok/235779-rassledovanie-kak-lichnyi-kulinar-putina-nakormit-rossiiskuyu-a?page=3,1&_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp
Corruption may be what saves Ukraine''
-
Marina Ovsyannikova
This woman is a real life heroine.
That’s real courage to do what she has.
Brave beyond words
https://mobile.twitter.com/Bluesoulreggae/status/1503514570895339523
I fear for her person, but her spirit gives hope to everyone.
-
If only 10% of the people of Russia took to the streets to protest against the war and Putin as their President it would equate to 14m people .
-
In many respects it's like a civil war.
I just wonder how long they can supress the truth.
-
In many respects it's like a civil war.
I just wonder how long they can supress the truth.
I don't think it's civil war in any respect RD, what leads you to believe that?
Apologies for a sec I thought you meant Ukraine
-
my skills are nowhere good enough
''Ukraine appealed for a global army of IT experts to help in the battle against Putin – and many answered the call. We speak to people on the digital frontline
Chris Stokel-Walker and Dan Milmo
Tue 15 Mar 2022 10.00 GMT
Kali learned how to use technology by playing with his grandfather’s phone. Now, the Swiss teenager is trying to paralyse the digital presence of the Russian government and the Belarussian railway.
Kali – and many others who contributed to this article – declined to share his real name because some of the action he is taking is illegal and because he fears Russian retaliation. He one of about 300,000 people who have signed up to a group on the chat app Telegram called “IT Army of Ukraine”, through which participants are assigned tasks designed to take the fight to Vladimir Putin. In so doing, they are trying to level the playing field between one of the world’s superpowers and Ukraine as it faces bombardment and invasion''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/mar/15/volunteer-hackers-fight-russia
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Tory MP Daniel Kawczynski has deleted his Twitter account after tweeting that it would be "immoral" for the UK to take more refugees.
That's the same Daniel Kawczynski who was born in Warsaw, and whose mother brought him to the UK when he was 6. Good job we didn't have Kitsons in power wanting to send em back then, eh?
Mind, I can understand why he's deleted his account. 2 years ago he was bragging that he was liaising with the Polish Govt to block any UK Brexit deal in the EU Parliament. Which, in simple English, is treason.
-
Reports that Zelenskyy is now saying Ukraine has to accept it cannot join NATO! Is that a peace proposal
-
What is the bravest thing you have ever done:
https://twitter.com/avalaina/status/1503447615807049731
The sign says:
“Stop the war
Don’t believe propaganda
They’re lying to you”
and she is chanting, 'Stop the War, No to War'
Her name is Maria Ovsyanikova and we will most likely never see her again.
Fined the equivalent of £215.
That's a real surprise, and a welcome one.
-
She could still be charged under the new laws, 15years in jail still a possibility
-
What is the bravest thing you have ever done:
https://twitter.com/avalaina/status/1503447615807049731
The sign says:
“Stop the war
Don’t believe propaganda
They’re lying to you”
and she is chanting, 'Stop the War, No to War'
Her name is Maria Ovsyanikova and we will most likely never see her again.
Fined the equivalent of £215.
That's a real surprise, and a welcome one.
She could still be charged under the new laws, 15years in jail still a possibility
That is a good point Raven.
Maybe the fine being made public is to kid us all that the situation has been dealt with.
What happens afterwards may never become common knowledge.
-
This is the best military assessment I have seen of operations in Ukraine
https://twitter.com/WarintheFuture/status/1503499716209754115
To help, COA = Course of Action, OA = Operational Area, OE = Operational Environment
In my past life I have been heavily involved in operational planning and the use of wargaming (and in particular developing tools for use in those wargames) as referred to - it is an essential part of Course of Action development, comparison and selection (tweets 7 and 8). So I found it very interesting and very telling on the Russian side.
-
What is the bravest thing you have ever done:
https://twitter.com/avalaina/status/1503447615807049731
The sign says:
“Stop the war
Don’t believe propaganda
They’re lying to you”
and she is chanting, 'Stop the War, No to War'
Her name is Maria Ovsyanikova and we will most likely never see her again.
Fined the equivalent of £215.
That's a real surprise, and a welcome one.
Amazing, I really thought we would never see her again.
-
For anyone interested on Putin and his rise to power, there is a new series on Radio 4 here
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m0015nfc
-
Meanwhile, anyone who only gets their news from the Indy or the Evening Standard will not be finding out about MI6's concerns about Lebedev...
...who...
...you guessed it...
...owns the Indy and the Evening Standard.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Gabriel_Pogrund/status/1502931453218336768
Moscow media tactics right here in Britain. Do not publish criticism of the rich and powerful.
-
Jeez, thank god the Guardian isn’t politically motivated.
-
Well written Hound. Im impressed mate.
Cheers
BobG
-
Culmination - in a military sense, seems to be the new word of the year.
-
What is the bravest thing you have ever done:
https://twitter.com/avalaina/status/1503447615807049731
The sign says:
“Stop the war
Don’t believe propaganda
They’re lying to you”
and she is chanting, 'Stop the War, No to War'
Her name is Maria Ovsyanikova and we will most likely never see her again.
Fined the equivalent of £215.
That's a real surprise, and a welcome one.
Amazing, I really thought we would never see her again.
We still might not
-
This is the best military assessment I have seen of operations in Ukraine
https://twitter.com/WarintheFuture/status/1503499716209754115
To help, COA = Course of Action, OA = Operational Area, OE = Operational Environment
In my past life I have been heavily involved in operational planning and the use of wargaming (and in particular developing tools for use in those wargames) as referred to - it is an essential part of Course of Action development, comparison and selection (tweets 7 and 8). So I found it very interesting and very telling on the Russian side.
Maybe the bleak assessment of the Russian operation in the above tweet is linked to Zelensky making comments about negotiations now being 'more realistic' and this report by John Simpson.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-60756993
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I see Putin is going full-on "I'm on the side of The People against The Elite."
https://mobile.twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1504116136966828043
I'm sure I've heard other rich and powerful right wing politicians use that line before...
Give me a minute...it'll come back to me.
-
''Ukraine has now killed a fourth senior Russian military general, President Volodymyr Zelensky says.
''If confirmed to be true - it would mean one-fifth of the roughly 20 Russian generals believed to be leading Moscow's invasion have been killed in combat so far.
It's a high number, and we've been reporting on how it's leading some experts to believe that Ukraine may be deliberating targeting high-level Russian officers with lethal force''
A statement of the bleedin' obvious from the bbc
-
If anyone still doubts that Putin is a true fascist, watch this. As the man says, this is straight from the 1930s school of demagoguery.
https://mobile.twitter.com/simonmontefiore/status/1504184497042079755
-
No doubt about johnson either, it's everyone else's fault
''Boris Johnson: Ukraine paying the price for West's failure over Putin''
-
Abromavich is back in Moscow, he’s moved his Super yaught to Turkey out of the way of sanctions, there is no doubt now where his loyalties lie, I wonder when was the last time he was in Moscow?
-
Excellent money maker for the cause....
(https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/attachments/z-capture-png.648219/)
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10621783/Lego-Zelenskys-model-leader-Toy-company-creates-figures-raise-money-war-victims.html
-
This makes interesting reading
https://twitter.com/investigate_eu/status/1504353552738758658
-
American banker and far-right politics/economics commentator after Zelensky's video address to Congress yesterday:
https://twitter.com/PeterSchiff/status/1504082706598146058?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
God up above...
-
''Ukraine has now killed a fourth senior Russian military general, President Volodymyr Zelensky says.
''If confirmed to be true - it would mean one-fifth of the roughly 20 Russian generals believed to be leading Moscow's invasion have been killed in combat so far.
It's a high number, and we've been reporting on how it's leading some experts to believe that Ukraine may be deliberating targeting high-level Russian officers with lethal force''
A statement of the bleedin' obvious from the bbc
Cutting the head off the proverbial chicken.
-
Things appear to be as desperate as they can possibly be in Mariupol, at least there are survivors being recovered from the wreckage of that theatre.
Very sadly I think the Russians will persist with this siege the longest and with most force. The city sits on the coast between the Donbas and Crimea, so they need it to create a land bridge between Russia and Crimea. In fact Putin was talking on Russian TV today about building a new motorway link to Crimea and all the new economic opportunities that would bring.
In his warped mind Mariupol already belongs to Russia.
-
American banker and far-right politics/economics commentator after Zelensky's video address to Congress yesterday:
https://twitter.com/PeterSchiff/status/1504082706598146058?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
God up above...
Billy. Why do you continuously find it necessary to trawl through Twitter to find such tweets to share on here. I doubt anyone needs to see that kind of pointless crap on this thread. Anyone who thinks Zelensky’s wardrobe is important is a buffoon. That is clear.
But you attempting to making it a thing on such a serious thread is plain sad and no more grown up than the original pathetic comment.
-
American banker and far-right politics/economics commentator after Zelensky's video address to Congress yesterday:
https://twitter.com/PeterSchiff/status/1504082706598146058?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
God up above...
Billy. Why do you continuously find it necessary to trawl through Twitter to find such tweets to share on here. I doubt anyone needs to see that kind of pointless crap on this thread. Anyone who thinks Zelensky’s wardrobe is important is a buffoon. That is clear.
But you attempting to making it a thing on such a serious thread is plain sad and no more grown up than the original pathetic comment.
I’m not sure who it was but a while back someone asked everyone not to politicise this thread.
It seems that SR and bst didn’t get the message.
-
You have to marvel at that Twitter post though.
The suggestion reminds me of that Carry On movie scene, where the British sit down to dinner, in full Evening dress and continue eating as though the shelling of the building from the enemy outside and being showered in debris and dust were not happening.
Besides Zelensky is wearing military fatigues to show his commitment to the war effort and solidarity with the Ukrainian people. He understands the media and how to promote the right image.
-
Agreed RD.
Totally crass and uncalled for.
-
noone likes trolls but they still persist
-
President Zelensky highly critical of Germany in speech to Reichstag: -
"We told you Nord Stream was a weapon and a preparation for a great war. We heard in response it was a question of business."
"When we asked for preventative sanctions......We saw delays. We felt resistance...you wanted to continue the economy."
"Every year politicians repeat the words: never again. And now we see these words are worth nothing."
"We are trying to defend our country without your support."
"Why is a country that is across the ocean [the USA] helping us more now?"
"Chancellor Schulz give Germany the leadership that you deserve which will make future generations proud." i.e. implying the opposite has been the case previously.
Take the time to listen to this speech. A great speech by a great man. And a damning indictment of the geopolitical priorities of the biggest economy in Europe.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT-FdDgNaC4
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HuiKhRK3mU
-
President Zelensky highly critical of Germany in speech to Reichstag: -
"We told you Nord Stream was a weapon and a preparation for a great war. We heard in response it was a question of business."
"When we asked for preventative sanctions......We saw delays. We felt resistance...you wanted to continue the economy."
"Every year politicians repeat the words: never again. And now we see these words are worth nothing."
"We are trying to defend our country without your support."
"Why is a country that is across the ocean [the USA] helping us more now?"
"Chancellor Schulz give Germany the leadership that you deserve which will make future generations proud." i.e. implying the opposite has been the case previously.
Take the time to listen to this speech. A great speech by a great man. And a damning speech against the geopolitical priorities of the biggest economy in Europe.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT-FdDgNaC4
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HuiKhRK3mU
With his back is against the wall he makes the most of his opportunities and leaves little or no room to misunderstand his intent.
-
noone likes trolls but they still persist
Help me out Syd, who is this “noone” that you keep mentioning?
Genuine question.
-
noone likes trolls but they still persist
Help me out Syd, who is this “noone” that you keep mentioning?
Genuine question.
Not sure why you'd need my help hound just look in the mirror
-
noone likes trolls but they still persist
Help me out Syd, who is this “noone” that you keep mentioning?
Genuine question.
Not sure why you'd need my help hound just look in the mirror
Weyhey, thanks for being so predictable.
You have just won me a fiver.
Seriously though, why do you write “noone”.
-
noone likes trolls but they still persist
Help me out Syd, who is this “noone” that you keep mentioning?
Genuine question.
Not sure why you'd need my help hound just look in the mirror
Weyhey, thanks for being so predictable.
You have just won me a fiver.
Seriously though, why do you write “noone”.
apologies hound, troll and pedant
-
noone likes trolls but they still persist
Help me out Syd, who is this “noone” that you keep mentioning?
Genuine question.
Not sure why you'd need my help hound just look in the mirror
Weyhey, thanks for being so predictable.
You have just won me a fiver.
Seriously though, why do you write “noone”.
apologies hound, troll and pedant
That’s good Syd, well done.
Just keep the politics out of this thread, there’s a good lad.
-
Looks like China has decided to cut Putin adrift. Massive, massive news if this is a real policy decision.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ThreshedThought/status/1504562237641482252
-
That's very encouraging news. Really China can't afford to disrupt the global economy to support a nation with an economy the size of Italy.
I was disappointed to read the Indians are agreeing to exchange roubles for their own currency. They can't resist the prospect of cheap oil.
-
I'm guessing Putin promised Xi it'd take a week to beat Ukraine. Now Xi is having to unhitch himself from a lame duck liability. Albeit one with 7000 nukes...
-
Looks like China has decided to cut Putin adrift. Massive, massive news if this is a real policy decision.
https://mobile.twitter.com/ThreshedThought/status/1504562237641482252
The real test will be whether this gets reported in and on China's main media, Xi will not like Biden or anyone else for that matter dictating to China where it should stand on this. I do think that the strength and unity shown by the west will have come as a huge shock to China and I think it will carefully re-evaluate any decisions it made before the winter olympics, but this is all supposition on my part atm.
-
RT has now lost its license to broadcast in this country, there will be some old and ex MPs looking for a new gig now the gravy train has been shut down
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-60791734
-
President Zelensky highly critical of Germany in speech to Reichstag: -
"We told you Nord Stream was a weapon and a preparation for a great war. We heard in response it was a question of business."
"When we asked for preventative sanctions......We saw delays. We felt resistance...you wanted to continue the economy."
"Every year politicians repeat the words: never again. And now we see these words are worth nothing."
"We are trying to defend our country without your support."
"Why is a country that is across the ocean [the USA] helping us more now?"
"Chancellor Schulz give Germany the leadership that you deserve which will make future generations proud." i.e. implying the opposite has been the case previously.
Take the time to listen to this speech. A great speech by a great man. And a damning indictment of the geopolitical priorities of the biggest economy in Europe.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT-FdDgNaC4
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HuiKhRK3mU
Compare and contrast the speech to the Reichstag above to the equally well constructed, but otherwise entirely different speech made by President Zelensky to the UK Parliament www.youtube.com/watch?v=GavaV2cQEjw&t=460s
Where he criticises Germany; he praises the UK fulsomely.
Where he admonishes Germany's political leadership; he personally thanks the UK Prime Minister
Where he bemoans the lack of support from Germany; he says he is thankful of the support of the UK (whilst of course urging us to go further)
So many posts on this thread are ultra critical of the help provided by the UK to Ukraine often comparing it unfavourably to that provided by the EU/Germany.
The recipient of this support makes crystal clear in these opposing speeches that he takes the polar opposite view to many on here.
Think again.
Or do any of the fervent Europhiles on here wish to contradict the brilliant President Zelensky?
-
I reserve the right to criticise who I like BR, and I'm happy to criticise the lying cnut we have for a pm whom blamed the EU for Russia invading the Crimea ffs, and he lied again and again about the UK leading the charge to sanction the oligarchs. I think Zelensky is getting stuck into Germany rightfully for becoming dependent on russian gas. Are you concerned at all about johnson going begging to the saudi's for oil?
-
Branton.
May I suggest you are rather missing the big picture here?
Zelensky is acting a role.
Ask yourself: what does Zelensky want more than anything? He wants the fighting to end and Russia to get out of Ukraine.
There's only two ways that is going to happen. Either the fighting goes on for years until Russia's will is ground down. Or Putin is given something he can hold up as a victory, facilitating retreat.
Zelensky would be insane to will the former.
So he's implicitly offering Russia two things to speed the former.
Ukraine will not join NATO.
Ukraine will not join the EU. Or, more specifically, will not buddy up to Germany.
But joining NATO and the EU have been popular in Ukraine for years. So he needs to take public opinion with him.
He needs to tell Ukraine that NATO and Germany haven't been their friends.
He's already done that effectively with NATO. He shouted from the rooftops that he needed a NATO no-fly zone, knowing damn well that NATO could not do that without starting WWIII. Now he can say to his people: see! NATO isn't our salvation.
Berating Germany is the next step. Germany has just announced that it is doubling its defence budget. It has finally realised the military threat that Russia poses. If Zelensky cuddles up to Germany, that makes it impossible for Putin to withdraw. So Zelensky has to very publicly distance himself from Germany. He's doing it in a way that has to convince Putin he means it, and convince the Ukrainian people that Germany didn't help them.
Finally, he's bigging up us because he needs to give a signal on where a post war Ukraine will be aligned. If he's not going to be able to get closer to the EU, he will want to have relations with the UK. Because that is less threatening to Putin.
He is playing a very skilful game for the highest stakes. Please don't drag this down into a Brexit swamp.
-
Branton,
It's easy to understand the initial German reluctance to commit against Russia. The country is far more dependant on Russian hydrocarbons. Understandably Germany has, since the last war been reluctant to involve itself in military conflict too.
The UK and US has been alerting Germany to the dependence they have on Russia for years. BUT Germany has an energy problem. Geography and economics have made Russian gas irresistibly attractive.
Things have rapidly escalated. The rules have changed. Make no mistake, Germany is now responding fully to the Ukrainian effort and I think given this recent change Zelensky was a bit harsh in his criticism. It should not be forgotten, the cost of all this is likely to be higher, perhaps much higher for Germany than for us in the UK.
-
Hypothetically speaking, if Britain was being invaded by another country to stop us having a choice to join NATO (or the EU for that matter), I doubt we would give in to them and promise that we wouldn’t.
-
This makes interesting reading
https://twitter.com/investigate_eu/status/1504353552738758658
Yes, why have it left the UK out? We have exported £56 million worth of arms (£1.5 billion, 'military capable' goods) to Russia since 2010.
https://bylinetimes.com/2022/02/15/uk-approved-military-exports-to-russia-exceed-ukraine-by-18-million-since-2010/
https://aoav.org.uk/2018/uk-arms-exports-to-russia/
https://www.mylondon.news/news/uk-world-news/british-arms-firms-given-licences-23336113
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Branton.
May I suggest you are rather missing the big picture here?
Zelensky is acting a role.
Ask yourself: what does Zelensky want more than anything? He wants the fighting to end and Russia to get out of Ukraine.
There's only two ways that is going to happen. Either the fighting goes on for years until Russia's will is ground down. Or Putin is given something he can hold up as a victory, facilitating retreat.
Zelensky would be insane to will the former.
So he's implicitly offering Russia two things to speed the former.
Ukraine will not join NATO.
Ukraine will not join the EU. Or, more specifically, will not buddy up to Germany.
But joining NATO and the EU have been popular in Ukraine for years. So he needs to take public opinion with him.
He needs to tell Ukraine that NATO and Germany haven't been their friends.
He's already done that effectively with NATO. He shouted from the rooftops that he needed a NATO no-fly zone, knowing damn well that NATO could not do that without starting WWIII. Now he can say to his people: see! NATO isn't our salvation.
Berating Germany is the next step. Germany has just announced that it is doubling its defence budget. It has finally realised the military threat that Russia poses. If Zelensky cuddles up to Germany, that makes it impossible for Putin to withdraw. So Zelensky has to very publicly distance himself from Germany. He's doing it in a way that has to convince Putin he means it, and convince the Ukrainian people that Germany didn't help them.
Finally, he's bigging up us because he needs to give a signal on where a post war Ukraine will be aligned. If he's not going to be able to get closer to the EU, he will want to have relations with the UK. Because that is less threatening to Putin.
He is playing a very skilful game for the highest stakes. Please don't drag this down into a Brexit swamp.
Should have added.
There is no way ever that Ukraine is joining NATO. Not a chance in a million. And Zelensky knows that.
The EU situation is more nuanced. Ukraine will not be joining the EU, but will be much closer to it after the War. It's just that Zelensky needs to plausibly be able to pose right now in a way that suggests that won't happen. So Putin had his escape route. After the War is a different matter.
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This makes interesting reading
https://twitter.com/investigate_eu/status/1504353552738758658
Yes, why have it left the UK out? We have exported £56 million worth of arms (£1.5 billion, 'military capable' goods) to Russia since 2010.
https://bylinetimes.com/2022/02/15/uk-approved-military-exports-to-russia-exceed-ukraine-by-18-million-since-2010/
https://aoav.org.uk/2018/uk-arms-exports-to-russia/
https://www.mylondon.news/news/uk-world-news/british-arms-firms-given-licences-23336113
Maybe simply that the UK isn’t in the EU any more.
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I reserve the right to criticise who I like BR, and I'm happy to criticise the lying cnut we have for a pm whom blamed the EU for Russia invading the Crimea ffs, and he lied again and again about the UK leading the charge to sanction the oligarchs. I think Zelensky is getting stuck into Germany rightfully for becoming dependent on russian gas. Are you concerned at all about johnson going begging to the saudi's for oil?
We?
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I caught a bit of the Putin show. That looked a really shite gig.
The most remarkable thing about him was that his ordinary looking, navy blue coat actually retails for more than ten grand. I wonder what the average Russian would make of that?
And what a crap orator. Adolf had a bit of passion for his fascist demagoguery. This was less Nuremberg, more team leader presentation at the Stevenage Arts & Leisure centre. Watching him though, it's not only the multitude of mislead Russians, I'm convinced he really believes what he comes out with too. He completely inhabits the lies.
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This makes interesting reading
https://twitter.com/investigate_eu/status/1504353552738758658
Yes, why have it left the UK out? We have exported £56 million worth of arms (£1.5 billion, 'military capable' goods) to Russia since 2010.
https://bylinetimes.com/2022/02/15/uk-approved-military-exports-to-russia-exceed-ukraine-by-18-million-since-2010/
https://aoav.org.uk/2018/uk-arms-exports-to-russia/
https://www.mylondon.news/news/uk-world-news/british-arms-firms-given-licences-23336113
Maybe simply that the UK isn’t in the EU any more.
Is that why you found it interesting? Because it criticises the EU for what the UK is doing more of - but ignores it?
UK firms were exhibiting their products to Russian arms dealers LAST WEEK:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/exclusive-uk-firms-bankroll-arms-fair-where-russia-shows-off-weapons/
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This makes interesting reading
https://twitter.com/investigate_eu/status/1504353552738758658
Yes, why have it left the UK out? We have exported £56 million worth of arms (£1.5 billion, 'military capable' goods) to Russia since 2010.
https://bylinetimes.com/2022/02/15/uk-approved-military-exports-to-russia-exceed-ukraine-by-18-million-since-2010/
https://aoav.org.uk/2018/uk-arms-exports-to-russia/
https://www.mylondon.news/news/uk-world-news/british-arms-firms-given-licences-23336113
Maybe simply that the UK isn’t in the EU any more.
Is that why you found it interesting? Because it criticises the EU for what the UK is doing more of - but ignores it?
UK firms were exhibiting their products to Russian arms dealers LAST WEEK:
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/exclusive-uk-firms-bankroll-arms-fair-where-russia-shows-off-weapons/
No I found it interesting because not just this country has been selling arms to Russia but the EU has been doing just as much. Balance is everything
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Gun battles in the centre of Mariupol.
The Russians are moving in. They'll either take it or it'll turn into Leningrad.
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They bombed another shelter, this time an art school where 400 were sheltering.
There are no excuses they have to be targeting civilians.
But then I suppose he is at war with Ukrainian civil society. A victory for him must involve breaking the spirit of the civilian population
It's utterly barbaric
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Branton,
It's easy to understand the initial German reluctance to commit against Russia. The country is far more dependant on Russian hydrocarbons. Understandably Germany has, since the last war been reluctant to involve itself in military conflict too.
The UK and US has been alerting Germany to the dependence they have on Russia for years. BUT Germany has an energy problem. Geography and economics have made Russian gas irresistibly attractive.
Things have rapidly escalated. The rules have changed. Make no mistake, Germany is now responding fully to the Ukrainian effort and I think given this recent change Zelensky was a bit harsh in his criticism. It should not be forgotten, the cost of all this is likely to be higher, perhaps much higher for Germany than for us in the UK.
Hi RD I nearly 100% agree with your analysis.
Germany didn't have to go down the route of becoming reliant on Russian gas - it did so on financial grounds.
Germany didn't have to decide to spend significantly less on defence than the NATO 2% target over the last 2 decades - it did so on financial grounds.
Not only did the UK and US alert Germany to the dangers of these policies. Germany continued underfunding it's military and building Nordstream 1 and Nordstream 2 throughout Putin's actions in Grozny, Georgia, Crimea and Eastern Ukraine.
Germany is the significant economic and political power in Europe meaning other neighbouring countries have followed it's lead on the above 2 issues.
To be clear the only people responsible for the death and destruction in Ukraine are Putin and his cronies. Putin is evil but he is not a madman. He is a rational strategic opportunist with evil intent. He's made a huge strategic error in Ukraine but he saw an opportunity because: -
- He saw much of Europe, led by Germany, as being militarily weak
- The US was looking increasingly inward - under Trump and Biden - confirmed by the Afghan withdrawal
- He saw much of Europe, led my Germany, as beholden to Russia for gas imports
- The price of gas and oil was rising considerably after the Covid recovery began (Putin helped engineer this price rise too)
Rich democracies IMO have a moral duty to encourage and defend democratic freedoms of all peoples which goes beyond keeping domestic energy prices or defence spending low. Germany has failed abysmally in this moral duty with it's self-interested geopolitical decision making over the last 20 years.
The consequence of this decision making continues. Nordstream 1 remains open, Russian gas flows into Europe, European money flows into Russia helping fund the Russian tanks and missiles flowing into Ukraine.
Therefore the criticism from Zelesny was thoroughly justified (this is where I disagree with you).
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Should have added.
There is no way ever that Ukraine is joining NATO. Not a chance in a million. And Zelensky knows that.
The EU situation is more nuanced. Ukraine will not be joining the EU, but will be much closer to it after the War. It's just that Zelensky needs to plausibly be able to pose right now in a way that suggests that won't happen. So Putin had his escape route. After the War is a different matter.
Billy your theory re the German criticism is not without merit however there was no such criticism when President Zelesny addressed the EU www.youtube.com/watch?v=hVvkdwksxMw. It is telling the criticism was saved for Germany alone - see my post answering RD above.
Your argument on the UK speech is much weaker. It overestimates the UK's importance to Ukraine. It also misjudges Ukrainian priorities which is help now whilst in peril not future friendships. The president will understand the power criticism from him would have on a democratic Government. If the help being provided by the UK was as woeful as some on here suggest then at least some faint criticism would be expected. There is not a scintilla of criticism however.
Re your comment directed to me on Brexit: -
1) You and others have denigrated UK aid to Ukraine often comparing it unfavourably to EU aid, have unquestioningly lauded said EU aid whilst conveniently ignoring how the actions of Germany (and others) has helped encourage and fund Putin's actions. Hence my Europhile comment.
2) My criticism is not of the EU per se but individual states primarily Germany. (of course certain sanctions must go through the EU)
3) I, unlike you, have not mentioned Brexit on this thread
4) I, unlike you, have not been crass enough to make comparisons between the EU and Putin's Russia
5) As you've brought it up there is a clear benefit of Brexit highlighted here - our ability to take out trading sanctions against rogue states unilaterally without being vetoed by other countries with vested interests
6) You have some cheek given you've used every opportunity available on this thread to express your vitriolic hatred for the Tories and Johnson. You've even laughably suggested Boris is a Russian spy. A man with little 'common sense' intelligence and practically zero discretion who can't even keep an illegal cheese and wine party secret (or understand why it should need to be kept secret re his personal political survival). This is not a cogent argument but a case of what is the worst accusation you can level in the current climate at a political enemy - schoolboy stuff.
Thousands of Ukrainians have been killed, injured, forced to leave their homes and country and a hard won democracy of 44 million people is under severe threat. Please don't drag this down into the foetid swamp of playground party politics.
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Branton.
I'm happy to acknowledge that you were criticising Germany not the EU. My apogies for that error. Many people have used criticism of Germany as a reason for disliking the entire EU and I made the mistake of thinking that was what you were doing. Happy to hold my hand up and admit that was wrong.
As for your other specific criticisms.
1) I've said nothing about aid. I've said plenty about our response to refugees and I stand by every word. Feel free to point out which bits you disagree with.
4) I haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about. I have never compared the EU to Putin's Russia. What I HAVE done, frequently is to point out the childishness of people using comparisons between the EU and dictatorships. I don't recall you ever taking people to task for making those comparisons, so I've no idea what your opinion is.
5) And that independence of action can in practice lead to us giving kleptocrats plenty of notice that sanctions are coming. So that, while EU countries were impounding superyachts, we we sending the Riot Squad round to kick protestors out of a kleptocrat's mansion.
6) Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't accuse Johnson of being a spy. I said there is a body of evidence to suggest he is or has been an agent of Russia. As in, someone taking actions that are in their interests. I've explained the evidence that underpins that thinking. Feel free to explain which bits you have issues with.
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Point 6.
In April 2018 shortly after the Salisbury posioning Johnson, then Foreign Secretary attendend a party at the mansion of Evgeny Lebedez without his security detail. At the party was Lebedez's father, an ex-KGB agent.
Rory Stewart, then a minister in the foreign office under Johnson, was also invited to the party where he was told 'there would be girls'. Stewart, recognising the security implications refused the offer.
One would expect the mansion of a multi-millionaire to have plenty of CCTV coverage.
I believe the correct term is 'Russian asset'.
As far as I am aware the step-grandaughter of the Russian foreign minister still lives in London as does the family of a previous one. Also as far as I am aware no Russian that has been granted a golden passport or donated to the Tory Party has yet been sanctioned. In fact most of the Russians who have been sanctioned by the UK have no connection with this country.
'Russian asset'.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/tory-invited-lebedevs-villa-girls-26485306
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Wilts.
"Asset" is a better choice of word than "agent". I know what I meant by "agent" but it appears to be open to being read another way.
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i have just been checking what Russian Art is coming up at the major auction houses (it's hot at the moment - "what isn't faked" )
https://www.sothebys.com/en/departments/russian-art
the above currentlythinks it's having an on line auction next month
Type: auction
Easter Feast
4–14 APRIL 2022 | 2:00 PM BST | LONDON
Just like "ivory" is no go we need to make anything and everything with Russian Provenance "no go" at these auction houses
Major Auction Houses accept bitcoin etc in payment so at present they can circumnavigate the present rules
as i said
https://www.artfixdaily.com/news_feed/2022/03/16/9814-russian-art-auctions-cancelled-by-sothebys-christies-and-bonhams
Russian Art Auctions Cancelled by Sotheby's, Christie's and Bonhams
March 16, 2022 17:46
However
just this minute found this out
Phillips auction house has been under scutiny for its Russian ownership and earmarked fees from its March 3 sale of 20th century and contemporary art to the Ukrainian Red Cross Society, which amounted to a £5.8 million ($7.7 million) donation.
so why hasn't this one been closed down me thinx the ownership is a closely guarded secret ?? I certainly didn't know that.
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Look what happens when you give kleptocrats notice that you really, really, REALLY are coming for their assests.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-60825983
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Utterly embarrassing and humiliating to have someone from a country under invasion have to speak to the UK PM like this.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1506351163335233539
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Who TF writes Boris Johnsons speeches and who TF proof reads em for tardiness.?
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Now claimed that Old bo!!ock chops Gove came up with the idea
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Utterly embarrassing and humiliating to have someone from a country under invasion have to speak to the UK PM like this.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1506351163335233539
I disagree BST.
Boris deserves & needs to be ‘called out’ when he makes such scandalous comparisons. I believe there was a former member of the Ukrainian government (I may be wrong about their position but they were of a ‘pertinent position’) present in the room when Bozo made his speech who for whatever reason didn’t condemn this particular passage of the speech.
When Senior Tories express their disdain along with politicians throughout Europe, Bienkov’s condemnation of such a crass ‘comment’, as former President of Ukraine, carries far more clout than any other voice & he did so with an eloquence & pertinence Bozo could only ever dream of possessing.
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News just coming out is Boris was at a party with russian donars to his party hours before Russia invaided Ukraine ,shocking if true ,what does the man have to do before his own people turn on him
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We then have Johnson’s ‘Fagg’ Jacob Rees-‘Smog’, claiming that the war in Ukraine shows just what “disproportionate fluff’ the Downing Street Partygate scandal was.
Yet another crass, but typical of the man, (I use the term man in its broadest context) remark to make as, to use Bienkov’s remarks regarding Bozo comparison to Brexit with the war raging in Ukraine, no one ever died at a garden party.
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He should be strung up. By his testicles.
BobG
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We then have Johnson’s ‘Fagg’ Jacob Rees-‘Smog’, claiming that the war in Ukraine shows just what “disproportionate fluff’ the Downing Street Partygate scandal was.
Yet another crass, but typical of the man, (I use the term man in its broadest context) remark to make as, to use Bienkov’s remarks regarding Bozo comparison to Brexit with the war raging in Ukraine, no one ever died at a garden party.
Bienkov is the Tweeter. The man in the video is Petr Poroshenko, the previous Ukraine PM.
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Listen to what Sunak is saying here.
Watch Johnson's face.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1506614564510654467
Just when you think he couldn't be more of an embarrassing insult to the nation...
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Listen to what Sunak is saying here.
Watch Johnson's face.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1506614564510654467
Just when you think he couldn't be more of an embarrassing insult to the nation...
It is embarrassing.
What’s also embarrassing is your determination to relentlessly use this delicate, emotive, deeply worrying yet predominantly filled with mature discussion thread, as yet another vehicle to ridicule the government.
Do you have no shame at all?
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Can you explain his re-action then BR, it looks shocking to me and if that is seen around The World what are they going to think
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Can you explain his re-action then BR, it looks shocking to me and if that is seen around The World what are they going to think
My first sentence says his reaction is embarrassing.
My point, Raven, is that it has nothing to do with this thread.
By all means, let’s have a ‘Johnson is an embarrassment’ thread, but this thread should not be used for such pathetic, agenda suiting posts.
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There are signs the tide of this war is turning.
Ukrain has regained some ground and there are tentative reports that Ukraine maybe about to encircle and cut off a chunk of the Russian army to the north of Kyiv.
Not sure if this is good news or not. I fear what Putins reaction might be.
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There are signs the tide of this war is turning.
Ukrain has regained some ground and there are tentative reports that Ukraine maybe about to encircle and cut off a chunk of the Russian army to the north of Kyiv.
Not sure if this is good news or not. I fear what Putins reaction might be.
I would imagine that these reports have been given airtime in the west for a reason, that being to exert steady pressure on the Russians that as this news starts to permeate into their society we are hoping for some sort of a mental breakdown for their war machine. Reports of frostbitten troops loosing the will to continue will have the same effect
The arms supply's going into Ukraine now from the west must be ramping up to a level where some sort of endgame for this part of the war is beginning.
I'm hoping for all our sake's that we have calculated correctly with this despot and we have deduced that he will not use nuclear weapons and will attempt some sort of face saving negotiation.
Lets just all hope the tide is really turning for the better.
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Another report suggests, when totalled up dead, wounded and captured personnel, the Russian losses amount to something like 15% of the total they went in with.
Add to that those teenage conscripts, tired, hungry, frost bitten and completely demoralised.
You can see how the Russians are struggling
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Russia has had a policy for a while called "Escalate to De-escalate".
It's based on the idea that if Russia is losing a war with NATO, they "escalate" by using a very limited number of small nukes.
NATO has war gamed this, and from what I've read, every time the result has been that NATO swallows it and backs off - that's the De-escalate outcome that Russia desires. Or. NATO doesn't swallow it...and in the war gaming, that leads to an out of control escalation.
Russia's idea is that because NATO wouldn't risk an increased escalation, Escalate to De-escalate is a rational policy.
It is also said to have been their plan to re-take the Baltics. The idea was to hit them with overwhelming conventional force and blitzkrieg them. Russia would overwhelm them before NATO could respond. But because the Baltics are NATO states, NATO would be treaty-bound to invade to force Russia out. The Escalte to De-escalate plan involved Russia using a small nuke as part of their invasion to send a message to NATO: See what we are prepared to do? Be sensible. Accept the fait accompli.
How that fits in to the Ukraine situation I don't know and I'm not sure anyone does. NATO will not get directly involved in Ukraine so Escalte to De-escalate doesn't directly apply. But the fact this has been a policy is terrifying if Russia looks like losing badly in Ukraine.
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I would imagine given the Russian army performance in Ukraine and it's losses, any thoughts of opening a second front and attacking a NATO state are firmly on the back burner now.
In the meantime the west has accepted it now needs a much larger military force in the east and this process has already begun.
The big worry I think remains Ukraine and how things develop there.
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Another consideration is how things progress in Russia itself. Already there are queues for basic items like sugar. The sanctions are only just begining to bite.
When those maimed and disfigured lads start returning home in large numbers, that will probably have a big impact on public opinion of the war. Someone threw a petrol bomb at the Kremlin today.
Putins instinct is to crackdown, that's begun and I suppose he will only crackdown harder on any dissent.
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I would imagine given the Russian army performance in Ukraine and it's losses, any thoughts of opening a second front and attacking a NATO state are firmly on the back burner now.
In the meantime the west has accepted it now needs a much larger military force in the east and this process has already begun.
The big worry I think remains Ukraine and how things develop there.
I agree that one potentially massive positive to come out of this nightmare is that Putin has seen that his conventional forces are shockingly bad. It seems hard to believe he would be able to win a blitzkrieg in the Baltics and that was always the most dangerous potential scenario.
My concern is what he might yet do if Ukrain really starts to push back Russian forces and he's faced with a humiliation.
From a world peace point of view, the least dangerous outcome would be some acceptance that the Donbass and the Black Sea coast be integrated into Russia. Give Putin an exit where he can claim victory without being humiliated, and go home and lick his wounds knowing he's never invading anywhere else again. But morally, after how Ukraine has fought, that takes some swallowing.
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Can you explain his re-action then BR, it looks shocking to me and if that is seen around The World what are they going to think
My first sentence says his reaction is embarrassing.
My point, Raven, is that it has nothing to do with this thread.
By all means, let’s have a ‘Johnson is an embarrassment’ thread, but this thread should not be used for such pathetic, agenda suiting posts.
There have been numerous requests from posters for others not to politicise this thread.
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I would imagine given the Russian army performance in Ukraine and it's losses, any thoughts of opening a second front and attacking a NATO state are firmly on the back burner now.
In the meantime the west has accepted it now needs a much larger military force in the east and this process has already begun.
The big worry I think remains Ukraine and how things develop there.
I agree that one potentially massive positive to come out of this nightmare is that Putin has seen that his conventional forces are shockingly bad. It seems hard to believe he would be able to win a blitzkrieg in the Baltics and that was always the most dangerous potential scenario.
My concern is what he might yet do if Ukrain really starts to push back Russian forces and he's faced with a humiliation.
From a world peace point of view, the least dangerous outcome would be some acceptance that the Donbass and the Black Sea coast be integrated into Russia. Give Putin an exit where he can claim victory without being humiliated, and go home and lick his wounds knowing he's never invading anywhere else again. But morally, after how Ukraine has fought, that takes some swallowing.
I agree BST but I'm not sure Ukraine would accept it.
If Russia got it's land bridge to Crimea and a Ukrainian commitment not to join NATO. Perhaps Ukraine keeping Odessa and it's access to the black sea.
That could be sold as a Russian victory of sorts.
Then we could look at de-escalating sanctions in return for commitments to European security.
Who knows, they keep saying peace talks are becoming more realistic.
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Without a doubt, both sides will be looking for a way to end the conflict so will be hoping to achieve it without losing too much face.
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Branton.
I'm happy to acknowledge that you were criticising Germany not the EU. My apogies for that error. Many people have used criticism of Germany as a reason for disliking the entire EU and I made the mistake of thinking that was what you were doing. Happy to hold my hand up and admit that was wrong.
As for your other specific criticisms.
1) I've said nothing about aid. I've said plenty about our response to refugees and I stand by every word. Feel free to point out which bits you disagree with.
4) I haven't the faintest idea what you are talking about. I have never compared the EU to Putin's Russia. What I HAVE done, frequently is to point out the childishness of people using comparisons between the EU and dictatorships. I don't recall you ever taking people to task for making those comparisons, so I've no idea what your opinion is.
5) And that independence of action can in practice lead to us giving kleptocrats plenty of notice that sanctions are coming. So that, while EU countries were impounding superyachts, we we sending the Riot Squad round to kick protestors out of a kleptocrat's mansion.
6) Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't accuse Johnson of being a spy. I said there is a body of evidence to suggest he is or has been an agent of Russia. As in, someone taking actions that are in their interests. I've explained the evidence that underpins that thinking. Feel free to explain which bits you have issues with.
Billy thank you for your apology. What are your, or anyone else's, thoughts on German geopolitical policy towards Putin's Russia over the last 20 years? Genuinely interested. There is understandably a high focus on the UK Government's actions on here which sometimes misses the bigger picture.
(1) My turn to apologies for poor wording. By aid I meant help not just Aid but sanctions etc. My comment here wasn't directed at you but the thread as a whole
(4) To quote you "Anyone who has lazily complained about the EU being anti democratic needs to wake up now and see the bigger picture. This is what real tyrranical anti democracy looks like."
Clearly comparing the EU's democratic deficit to Russia's total lack of democracy to argue your view on Brexit.
The EU is definitively not a dictatorship. It is a Meritocracy sponsored by it's constituent Democracies. Said sponsorship mean EU's lawmakers, though not democratically elected, could never act in the way of a tyrannical dictatorship i.e. closing down free speech, controlling the press, banning political opposition, invading other countries etc.
Therefore the existence and behaviour of such dictatorships is totally irrelevant to discussions on the EU and Brexit. Anyone using the despicable actions of Russia in Ukraine as a pretext to compare the EU favourably or unfavourably to Putin's Russia is not just wrong-headed but crass.
(5) We can vote against the Government at the ballot box re your criticism. In reality the UK has banned Russian oil imports by the end of 2022. The EU has not committed to such a ban. If we were still in the EU we would be bound by this EU decision, as are all current members to Putin's advantage, and there'd be nothing the Government or UK citizens could do about it.
(6) I'd read agent = spy. To quote you again "[Johnson] attended a NATO meeting on the Salisbury poisoning, then went straight to an undocumented 1-2-1 private meeting with the son of a KGB colonel." Sounds like the actions of a spy rather than an asset being entrapped to me.
Wilts - your proposal of Johnson as an asset/useful idiot is more plausible given his lack of common sense/discretion - the very things that would make him a pretty useless spy/agent.
Either way this is an event from 4 years ago before he became PM. The security services would have to have been hugely incompetent if they didn't know of such a meeting, didn't investigate it and didn't move to remove the man from public office at any hint of impropriety - let alone allow him to become PM
It's a nonsense conspiracy theory.
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This is a reminder of what we do and don't know
''UK report on Russian interference: key points explained
Committee finds Kremlin’s reach in UK politics – especially in ‘Londongrad’ – is ‘new normal’''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/21/just-what-does-the-uk-russia-report-say-key-points-explained
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All good points Branton.
And here's another nonsene conspiracy theory from the former UK Defence Attache to the Kremlin in the papers today. Saying that they warned the government about Putin years ago but the chose to ignore them because they valued the Russian money coming into Londongrad (and the Tory Party's pockets) more:
https://twitter.com/ruskin147/status/1506539085669748744/photo/1
MI5/the security service dont conspire to remove Tory prime ministers btw, only Labour ones. They have a long history of that.
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Branton.
The point about the way so many Brexit supporters lazily accused the EU of being anti-democratic is that using that insult was meant to close down any discussion about the wider geo-political environment. There was absolutely no discussion in 2016 about the role of the EU as a counterweight to Russia. Now, you may believe the EU doesn't have a role to play in that, but the point is there was no discussion. We had Brexiteers scoffing "Cameron says if we leave the EU it'll be WWIII". We had other Brexiteers actively comparing the EU to dictatorships (EUSSR ring any bells?). All designed to strangle any deeper debate.
The point really was not "Do you want to be free of Brussels?" in a vacuum. Who wouldn't prefer to be unshackelled? It was "Are the sacrifices made to be part of a group of democratic nations worth it in the light of real threats from genuine dictatorships?"
We never had that debate.
And never once have I heard any Brexit supporter address the key point. Why was the only European head of state who supported Brexit, Putin. And why were the most vocal European politicians who supported Brexit, the ones who Putin bankrolls? (Le Pen, Salvini etc).
Regarding Johnson's relationship with Russia, I'd be prepared to consider him a useful idiot. Except for the Russia Report. I do not understand how anyone can look at that and not think it screams out "collusion".
He sat on the report for 12 months.
He tried to bury it by having Grayling (Grayling!) Installed as head of the Intelligence and Security Committee.
His own MPs rebelled and elected someone he couldn't strong arm.
That Tory MP Chair said in front of TV cameras that in view of the prima facie evidence that had on direct Russian interference in our elections (read that again - direct Russian interference in our elections) he found it inconceivable that a UK PM would not initiate a full security services investigation.
And Johnson's reply? In Parliament. He said he wouldn't ask the security services to look for evidence of Russian interference because he'd not seen any evidence of Russian interference.
Tell me any rational explanation of that chain of events that doesn't conclude that Johnson is at the very least a potential colluder with a hostile foreign power in terms of being prepared to ignore his own security advisers and turn a blind eye.
Finally, your point about Russian oil makes zero sense. If we were part of an EU that was only going to stop importing Russian oil in several years, we could still decide ourselves not to important any tomorrow. Verhoffstadt wouldn't have been at the petrol station saying "Tut tut!" if we'd filled up with non-Russian petrol.
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Good luck, Branton.
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Belton: the reaction of our PM in the House of Commons to a statement by his Chancellor about what is happening in the Ukraine absolutely DOES belong in a thread entitled 'Ukraine'. I am at a loss how you can think otherwise.
BobG
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Bob. I knew you would be at a loss.
Let me explain.
He was not reacting to the statement. Why do you think the clip is so short?
Johnson wasn’t laughing at the plight of Ukrainians.
He was laughing at something else. He wasn’t listening to what was being said. That makes him foolish and an embarrassment, as I have said. He was NOT laughing at Ukrainians. It has NOTHING to do with this thread about the war in Ukraine
You, Bob, made a comment about the quality of the debate on this thread. Now you defend Billy’s b*llocks.
Johnson is a tit. Absolutely. But that clip does not show what you and Billy and whoever else want to tell everyone else it does.
It has nothing to do do with this thread abut the war in Ukraine.
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And you know this how? Seriously. I really do want to know. If you are right the evidence must be available because you are clearly relying on it. If there is none then I will trust what my eyes and ears tell me from the evidence in front of us rather than what would then be emotional blether.
BobG
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Branton.
The point about the way so many Brexit supporters lazily accused the EU of being anti-democratic is that using that insult was meant to close down any discussion about the wider geo-political environment. There was absolutely no discussion in 2016 about the role of the EU as a counterweight to Russia. Now, you may believe the EU doesn't have a role to play in that, but the point is there was no discussion. We had Brexiteers scoffing "Cameron says if we leave the EU it'll be WWIII". We had other Brexiteers actively comparing the EU to dictatorships (EUSSR ring any bells?). All designed to strangle any deeper debate.
The point really was not "Do you want to be free of Brussels?" in a vacuum. Who wouldn't prefer to be unshackelled? It was "Are the sacrifices made to be part of a group of democratic nations worth it in the light of real threats from genuine dictatorships?"
We never had that debate.
And never once have I heard any Brexit supporter address the key point. Why was the only European head of state who supported Brexit, Putin. And why were the most vocal European politicians who supported Brexit, the ones who Putin bankrolls? (Le Pen, Salvini etc).
Regarding Johnson's relationship with Russia, I'd be prepared to consider him a useful idiot. Except for the Russia Report. I do not understand how anyone can look at that and not think it screams out "collusion".
He sat on the report for 12 months.
He tried to bury it by having Grayling (Grayling!) Installed as head of the Intelligence and Security Committee.
His own MPs rebelled and elected someone he couldn't strong arm.
That Tory MP Chair said in front of TV cameras that in view of the prima facie evidence that had on direct Russian interference in our elections (read that again - direct Russian interference in our elections) he found it inconceivable that a UK PM would not initiate a full security services investigation.
And Johnson's reply? In Parliament. He said he wouldn't ask the security services to look for evidence of Russian interference because he'd not seen any evidence of Russian interference.
Tell me any rational explanation of that chain of events that doesn't conclude that Johnson is at the very least a potential colluder with a hostile foreign power in terms of being prepared to ignore his own security advisers and turn a blind eye.
Finally, your point about Russian oil makes zero sense. If we were part of an EU that was only going to stop importing Russian oil in several years, we could still decide ourselves not to important any tomorrow. Verhoffstadt wouldn't have been at the petrol station saying "Tut tut!" if we'd filled up with non-Russian petrol.
We were in the EU in 1990 when the former Yugoslavia fell apart and watched the horror unfold including genocide .
Not sure what your point is Billy to be honest linking Brexit to this today .
Eastern Europe is historically complicated to say the least and will be again even when this war is over .
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And you know this how? Seriously. I really do want to know. If you are right the evidence must be available because you are clearly relying on it. If there is none then I will trust what my eyes and ears tell me from the evidence in front of us rather than what would then be emotional blether.
BobG
It’s obvious to anyone who can watch the video impartially. You, and others, clearly can’t.
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The trouble is, Belton, these people think that because they can convince themselves they can convince others.
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And you know this how? Seriously. I really do want to know. If you are right the evidence must be available because you are clearly relying on it. If there is none then I will trust what my eyes and ears tell me from the evidence in front of us rather than what would then be emotional blether.
BobG
It’s obvious to anyone who can watch the video impartially. You, and others, clearly can’t.
I don’t ever watch PMQs and have just had a look at the tweeted video clip for the first time.
It is obvious that something has been said which has caused people to laugh just before Sunak begins to speak. Johnson is obviously laughing about whatever was said before and the smirk is going as Sunak begins to speak about Ukraine.
It is noticeable that whoever put the clip on here cuts it before it goes any further.
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Can you explain his re-action then BR, it looks shocking to me and if that is seen around The World what are they going to think
My first sentence says his reaction is embarrassing.
My point, Raven, is that it has nothing to do with this thread.
By all means, let’s have a ‘Johnson is an embarrassment’ thread, but this thread should not be used for such pathetic, agenda suiting posts.
But Rich-ie is talking about the struggle in Ukraine while this embarrasing childish behaviour is happening so how is it nothing to do with this thread? Or is it just a continuation of the feud between BST and yourself?
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Just seen a photograph on the BBC website of the group of NATO heads of state assembling in Brussels for talks on Ukraine.
They all LOOK like heads of state ready for business….bar one.
Boris Johnson stands in the front row looking as though he has spent the night sleeping on a couch in the same clothes he is wearing. Don’t get me started about his hair, gut & ill fitting suit.
He makes Michael Foot look like Daniel Craig.
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fatigues?
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fatigues?
Fattyguest?
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Tyke.
Yugoslavia fell apart because of long standing internal ethnic tensions.
Ukraine is being devastated by an external aggressor who would very much like to extend his sphere of influence.
The two are not remotely similar. I have absolutely no idea why you mention the EU and our membership in that context.
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Can you explain his re-action then BR, it looks shocking to me and if that is seen around The World what are they going to think
My first sentence says his reaction is embarrassing.
My point, Raven, is that it has nothing to do with this thread.
By all means, let’s have a ‘Johnson is an embarrassment’ thread, but this thread should not be used for such pathetic, agenda suiting posts.
But Rich-ie is talking about the struggle in Ukraine while this embarrasing childish behaviour is happening so how is it nothing to do with this thread? Or is it just a continuation of the feud between BST and yourself?
Is Belton getting himself up into a lather about political agendas again?
The "agenda" I had by posting the video was to point out that our PM is such an embarrassing waste of skin that he couldn't stop himself from gurning at the opposition benches even while Sunak was talking about Ukraine.
The whole speech was supposed to be a serious statement of where our economy is in a global crisis. We are in the worst situation in Europe for 75 years. Johnson's Chancellor was just starting to speak about Ukraine and Johnson is sat there like a fat ugly schoolkid f**king well GURNING!
He hasn't got the self control to even attempt to look statesmanlike.
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Hound, as I remember it Johnson had just sat down when Sunack stood up after just pointing out to Starmer the Labour Party itself had Hired and Fired staff recently as P&O had who Starmer had criticized the government about.
The mirth followed the shooting of his own foot.
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Can you explain his re-action then BR, it looks shocking to me and if that is seen around The World what are they going to think
My first sentence says his reaction is embarrassing.
My point, Raven, is that it has nothing to do with this thread.
By all means, let’s have a ‘Johnson is an embarrassment’ thread, but this thread should not be used for such pathetic, agenda suiting posts.
But Rich-ie is talking about the struggle in Ukraine while this embarrasing childish behaviour is happening so how is it nothing to do with this thread? Or is it just a continuation of the feud between BST and yourself?
Is Belton getting himself up into a lather about political agendas again?
The "agenda" I had by posting the video was to point out that our PM is such an embarrassing waste of skin that he couldn't stop himself from gurning at the opposition benches even while Sunak was talking about Ukraine.
The whole speech was supposed to be a serious statement of where our economy is in a global crisis. We are in the worst situation in Europe for 75 years. Johnson's Chancellor was just starting to speak about Ukraine and Johnson is sat there like a fat ugly schoolkid f**king well GURNING!
He hasn't got the self control to even attempt to look statesmanlike.
Billy. Either respond to me directly or not at all.
You utter prick.
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So on Tuesday night, I was off on a walk before bed in the hills on the suburbs of Sheffield. Listening to a podcast about the development of Putin's nuclear strategy which was going on about the Escalate to De-Escalate strategy.
When I saw this.
https://fireballs.imo.net/members/imo_view/event/2022/1959#photo_box
Not many times in my life I've had a "Oh f**k, this is it!" moment, but just for a fraction of a second..
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Can you explain his re-action then BR, it looks shocking to me and if that is seen around The World what are they going to think
My first sentence says his reaction is embarrassing.
My point, Raven, is that it has nothing to do with this thread.
By all means, let’s have a ‘Johnson is an embarrassment’ thread, but this thread should not be used for such pathetic, agenda suiting posts.
But Rich-ie is talking about the struggle in Ukraine while this embarrasing childish behaviour is happening so how is it nothing to do with this thread? Or is it just a continuation of the feud between BST and yourself?
Is Belton getting himself up into a lather about political agendas again?
The "agenda" I had by posting the video was to point out that our PM is such an embarrassing waste of skin that he couldn't stop himself from gurning at the opposition benches even while Sunak was talking about Ukraine.
The whole speech was supposed to be a serious statement of where our economy is in a global crisis. We are in the worst situation in Europe for 75 years. Johnson's Chancellor was just starting to speak about Ukraine and Johnson is sat there like a fat ugly schoolkid f**king well GURNING!
He hasn't got the self control to even attempt to look statesmanlike.
Billy. Either respond to me directly or not at all.
You utter prick.
You do realise that when you’re blocked he can only see your posts that have been quoted don’t you
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Hound, as I remember it Johnson had just sat down when Sunack stood up after just pointing out to Starmer the Labour Party itself had Hired and Fired staff recently as P&O had who Starmer had criticized the government about.
The mirth followed the shooting of his own foot.
There was about 20 minutes between Johnson 'answering' questions from Starmer and Johnson sitting down after answering questiosn from other MP's.
I would post a link to the lies he told whilst answering those questions, but as it will have no effect on his sycophants who appear to like him because he is a liar, tho it easy to find.
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Can you explain his re-action then BR, it looks shocking to me and if that is seen around The World what are they going to think
My first sentence says his reaction is embarrassing.
My point, Raven, is that it has nothing to do with this thread.
By all means, let’s have a ‘Johnson is an embarrassment’ thread, but this thread should not be used for such pathetic, agenda suiting posts.
But Rich-ie is talking about the struggle in Ukraine while this embarrasing childish behaviour is happening so how is it nothing to do with this thread? Or is it just a continuation of the feud between BST and yourself?
Is Belton getting himself up into a lather about political agendas again?
The "agenda" I had by posting the video was to point out that our PM is such an embarrassing waste of skin that he couldn't stop himself from gurning at the opposition benches even while Sunak was talking about Ukraine.
The whole speech was supposed to be a serious statement of where our economy is in a global crisis. We are in the worst situation in Europe for 75 years. Johnson's Chancellor was just starting to speak about Ukraine and Johnson is sat there like a fat ugly schoolkid f**king well GURNING!
He hasn't got the self control to even attempt to look statesmanlike.
Billy. Either respond to me directly or not at all.
You utter prick.
You do realise that when you’re blocked he can only see your posts that have been quoted don’t you
We’ve had this conversation before, Filo.
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Can you explain his re-action then BR, it looks shocking to me and if that is seen around The World what are they going to think
My first sentence says his reaction is embarrassing.
My point, Raven, is that it has nothing to do with this thread.
By all means, let’s have a ‘Johnson is an embarrassment’ thread, but this thread should not be used for such pathetic, agenda suiting posts.
But Rich-ie is talking about the struggle in Ukraine while this embarrasing childish behaviour is happening so how is it nothing to do with this thread? Or is it just a continuation of the feud between BST and yourself?
Is Belton getting himself up into a lather about political agendas again?
The "agenda" I had by posting the video was to point out that our PM is such an embarrassing waste of skin that he couldn't stop himself from gurning at the opposition benches even while Sunak was talking about Ukraine.
The whole speech was supposed to be a serious statement of where our economy is in a global crisis. We are in the worst situation in Europe for 75 years. Johnson's Chancellor was just starting to speak about Ukraine and Johnson is sat there like a fat ugly schoolkid f**king well GURNING!
He hasn't got the self control to even attempt to look statesmanlike.
Billy. Either respond to me directly or not at all.
You utter prick.
You do realise that when you’re blocked he can only see your posts that have been quoted don’t you
We’ve had this conversation before, Filo.
I know, just making sure you understand
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Can you explain his re-action then BR, it looks shocking to me and if that is seen around The World what are they going to think
My first sentence says his reaction is embarrassing.
My point, Raven, is that it has nothing to do with this thread.
By all means, let’s have a ‘Johnson is an embarrassment’ thread, but this thread should not be used for such pathetic, agenda suiting posts.
But Rich-ie is talking about the struggle in Ukraine while this embarrasing childish behaviour is happening so how is it nothing to do with this thread? Or is it just a continuation of the feud between BST and yourself?
Is Belton getting himself up into a lather about political agendas again?
The "agenda" I had by posting the video was to point out that our PM is such an embarrassing waste of skin that he couldn't stop himself from gurning at the opposition benches even while Sunak was talking about Ukraine.
The whole speech was supposed to be a serious statement of where our economy is in a global crisis. We are in the worst situation in Europe for 75 years. Johnson's Chancellor was just starting to speak about Ukraine and Johnson is sat there like a fat ugly schoolkid f**king well GURNING!
He hasn't got the self control to even attempt to look statesmanlike.
Billy. Either respond to me directly or not at all.
You utter prick.
You do realise that when you’re blocked he can only see your posts that have been quoted don’t you
I've said times many on here that choosing to ignore a couple of people on here was the best thing I ever did. Here's a perfect example of why.
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All that pretending to ignore other people on here has done is allowed you to be vile, condescending and arrogant to others. And you are quite clearly not acting like it’s the best thing you ever did.
Unless becoming increasingly obnoxious by the day, to more and more people, makes you happy.
Filo, no need to quote this - Billy WILL be reading it.
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Bolton, you should be deeply honoured if he did decide all by himself to block you.
At least I asked him to block me.
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Bolton, you should be deeply honoured if he did decide all by himself to block you.
At least I asked him to block me.
I know, Hound. Yet he insists he ‘chose’ to block you.
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Bolton, you should be deeply honoured if he did decide all by himself to block you.
At least I asked him to block me.
I know, Hound. Yet he insists he ‘chose’ to block you.
Belton, it is entirely possible to chose to do something even if someone has previously asked for it to be done. Or are you just incapable of rational thought?
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Bolton, you should be deeply honoured if he did decide all by himself to block you.
At least I asked him to block me.
I know, Hound. Yet he insists he ‘chose’ to block you.
Belton, it is entirely possible to chose to do something even if someone has previously asked for it to be done. Or are you just incapable of rational thought?
Is there such a thing as rational knowledge?
You see, Hound asked and Billy obliged.
No ‘previous’ request was involved.
But thanks for your input.
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Bolton, you should be deeply honoured if he did decide all by himself to block you.
At least I asked him to block me.
I know, Hound. Yet he insists he ‘chose’ to block you.
Belton, it is entirely possible to chose to do something even if someone has previously asked for it to be done. Or are you just incapable of rational thought?
Seems like this thread has gone the way of all threads in here. On this of all topics.
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Billy
With respect I'm going to terminate this conversation on my side re Brexit. As I've already explained I don't think it's appropriate on this thread*. It is simply incorrect to compare the EU with the actions of Putin's Russia in Ukraine or elsewhere from either end of the Brexit debate. * Apart from in the narrower context on ability/speed of putting sanctions in place.
Re Boris. Firstly I'm not an apologist for the man in general. His record and actions as PM are appalling in many areas. This includes his decision re the Russia report you highlight. However this is IMO a wild accusation at the democratically elected PM which needs to be challenged.
A rational explanation is that Boris was well aware of what the outcome of the enquiry would be i.e. Russia interfered to whatever degree to encourage UK citizens to vote Tory in 2019. If this was revealed in a high profile investigation it would be all over the press, would undermine the legitimacy of the Tory Government and give Labour a great big stick with which to beat the Tories with esp (as unfortunately has been the case) Putin behaved atrociously sometime in the future.
Therefore his actions, typical of him as a weak/disreputable individual, was to try to suppress this information from coming out.
This is a far more rational and plausible explanation which fits much better with the nature of the man.
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Bolton, you should be deeply honoured if he did decide all by himself to block you.
At least I asked him to block me.
I know, Hound. Yet he insists he ‘chose’ to block you.
Belton, it is entirely possible to chose to do something even if someone has previously asked for it to be done. Or are you just incapable of rational thought?
Seems like this thread has gone the way of all threads in here. On this of all topics.
Agreed Bst.
Look back to see where the change started.
Someone linked a tweet and suggested that Johnson was laughing about the situation in Ukraine.
The tweet was selectively started at a point where Johnson was laughing at what had just been said, then as he was smirking at whatever he had found funny, Sunak began talking about Ukraine.
Johnson stopped smiling and suddenly the clip was ended.
It as engineered very well as a put down and you couldn’t see through that, or wilfully knew what it was about anyway, and decided to use it to further politicise the thread, this thread of all others, to suit your own anti government agenda.
It is so obvious to see.
Some posters have repeatedly asked others to stop politicising the thread but some others choose not to listen.
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All good points Branton.
And here's another nonsene conspiracy theory from the former UK Defence Attache to the Kremlin in the papers today. Saying that they warned the government about Putin years ago but the chose to ignore them because they valued the Russian money coming into Londongrad (and the Tory Party's pockets) more:
https://twitter.com/ruskin147/status/1506539085669748744/photo/1
MI5/the security service dont conspire to remove Tory prime ministers btw, only Labour ones. They have a long history of that.
Thanks Wilts. Re your link I don't view this as conspiracy at all. The West in total inc the UK have turned too much of a blind eye to Putin's behaviour pre the Ukraine invasion and continued to trade with Russia and therefore support the Russian Government/military whether UK banks or German energy companies.
UK banks sadly have a long history of accepting business from foul individuals from despotic regimes who have enriched themselves at the cost of their citizens - not just those from Russia either. Hopefully this will now change - though I shan't hold my breath.
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All good points Branton.
And here's another nonsene conspiracy theory from the former UK Defence Attache to the Kremlin in the papers today. Saying that they warned the government about Putin years ago but the chose to ignore them because they valued the Russian money coming into Londongrad (and the Tory Party's pockets) more:
https://twitter.com/ruskin147/status/1506539085669748744/photo/1
MI5/the security service dont conspire to remove Tory prime ministers btw, only Labour ones. They have a long history of that.
Thanks Wilts. Re your link I don't view this as conspiracy at all. The West in total inc the UK have turned too much of a blind eye to Putin's behaviour pre the Ukraine invasion and continued to trade with Russia and therefore support the Russian Government/military whether UK banks or German energy companies.
UK banks sadly have a long history of accepting business from foul individuals from despotic regimes who have enriched themselves at the cost of their citizens - not just those from Russia either. Hopefully this will now change - though I shan't hold my breath.
Excellent post Branton.
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Branton.
I'm not comparing the EU with Putin's Russia. I'm saying lots and lots of Brexit supporters did compare the EU with dictatorships. And I'm saying that weakening the EU was an explicit policy goal of the man who has started the first peer to peer national war in Europe since 1945.
Regarding Johnson, you suggest he is aware of Russian interference in our elections and has chosen to ignore it for reasons of political benefit. Yes I can accept that. But that IS him working in collusion with Russia. Colluding in as much as both of them have a vested interest in the same outcome, not necessarily both of them cooking up a plan over vodka in a dacha. You are suggesting that a UK PM has chosen not to have his security services investigate an attack by a hostile power and he has done that for personal and political gain then he is precisely a Russian asset (and as I've said before, "asset" is a much more accurate term than "agent" which I used before - thanks to Wilts for bringing the better term into the discussion) .
Finally, it wasn't the 2019 election that Russia is believed to have infiltrated. The Russia Report was written before that election. I'd tell you which election it was but I fear it would challenge your decision to walk away from this interaction. And I respect that, so I won't say.
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Bolton, you should be deeply honoured if he did decide all by himself to block you.
At least I asked him to block me.
I know, Hound. Yet he insists he ‘chose’ to block you.
Belton, it is entirely possible to chose to do something even if someone has previously asked for it to be done. Or are you just incapable of rational thought?
Seems like this thread has gone the way of all threads in here. On this of all topics.
Exactly your intention, it seems.
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News from the FCO about Russian cyber attacks.
Se the bit about the "raft of malign Russian attacks."
And note that it doesn't say anything in that list about attacks on our elections and democratic processes. Despite the Russian Report presenting detailed prima facie evidence that that had happened.
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Bolton, you should be deeply honoured if he did decide all by himself to block you.
At least I asked him to block me.
I know, Hound. Yet he insists he ‘chose’ to block you.
Belton, it is entirely possible to chose to do something even if someone has previously asked for it to be done. Or are you just incapable of rational thought?
Seems like this thread has gone the way of all threads in here. On this of all topics.
Agreed Bst.
Look back to see where the change started.
Someone linked a tweet and suggested that Johnson was laughing about the situation in Ukraine.
The tweet was selectively started at a point where Johnson was laughing at what had just been said, then as he was smirking at whatever he had found funny, Sunak began talking about Ukraine.
Johnson stopped smiling and suddenly the clip was ended.
It as engineered very well as a put down and you couldn’t see through that, or wilfully knew what it was about anyway, and decided to use it to further politicise the thread, this thread of all others, to suit your own anti government agenda.
It is so obvious to see.
Some posters have repeatedly asked others to stop politicising the thread but some others choose not to listen.
I Agree Hound. The constant politicising of the Ukraine invasion is quite disgusting.
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Not a word from you BB when our PM played Ukraine for domestic political gain at the weekend. Don't pretend you are disgusted by people politicising a catastrophe.
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Not a word from you BB when our PM played Ukraine for domestic political gain at the weekend. Don't pretend you are disgusted by people politicising a catastrophe.
That just about sums it up for me - Boris and Billy: two peas in a politicising a catastrophe pod.
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The EU has decided to cancel all meetings with the US for fear of politicising the war.
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Breadth of vision is sine qua non in those who would lead.
Think about it....
BobG
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Bob
Amen.
Ukraine is dealing with existential threat. It has found a leader with intelligence, moral courage and dynamism. He might have once played piano with his cock on a comedy show. But that's irrelevant. He might have been a clown once, but when the call came, he stepped up and became the man his nation required.
We have a leader who gurns across the Parliamentary divide and draws the crassest and most disgusting parallels between genuine bravery and his own political machinations. He might have been a clown once, but when the call came...he was nothing but a clown.
Maybe every country, at every time, gets the political leaders it deserves.
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USA - Donald Trump.
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Not a word from you BB when our PM played Ukraine for domestic political gain at the weekend. Don't pretend you are disgusted by people politicising a catastrophe.
Of course, political points scoring is wrong in such times of conflict but for serial offenders of the same violation to criticise such behaviour is both hypocritical and disgusting.
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Not a word from you BB when our PM played Ukraine for domestic political gain at the weekend. Don't pretend you are disgusted by people politicising a catastrophe.
Of course, political points scoring is wrong in such times of conflict but for cereal offenders of the same violation to criticise such behaviour is both hypocritical and disgusting.
I doubt there is a person on the forum you haven't seriously offended bb, don't forget the whisky podcast, grow up.
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''Ireland has taken in thousands of Ukrainian refugees since the war started''
''More than 3.5 million people have fled Ukraine since the war started. Ireland, a nation of just 5 million people that in Europe is geographically the furthest away from Ukraine, has already welcomed about 10,000 Ukrainian refugees so far. Marina Spivak (ph) is one of them. Her home in the northeastern Ukrainian city of Kharkiv was destroyed in the first hours of the war on February 24. She traveled about 750 miles by car to Romania with her four children, her husband and another family. They left with only the clothes on their backs, no time to pack. Then they flew to Ireland, which welcomed them with open arms''
Not a bad effort
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Superb by Ireland.
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Astonishing news today.
The friend of Putin who set up the IRA troll farm in Russia, and who is alleged to have sent a team of mercenaries to assassinate Zelensky is suing the head of Bellingcat for libel.
In a f**king British court!
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Yevgheny Prigozhin has been sanctioned for years by America and for months by the EU. He's not sanctioned by the UK. And so he's free to drag investigative journalists who look into his affairs through a LONDON court.
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Oh yeah. He's also wanted by the FBI for his role in interfering with the Presidential election in 2016. The fact that he's not wanted by UK police could be because he didn't interfere in UK elections. But we'll never know because Johnson refuses to instruct the security services to investigate.
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The very fact that Bozo won't give the instruction for an investigation tells you, exactly, precisely and very, very lucidly, that he knows what the outcome would be and that he doesn't fancy having it made both official and public.
Maggie will be turning in her grave...
BobG
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And you both still insist that these posts are relevant on a thread about the atrocities going on right now in Ukraine?
Shame on you both.
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Signs this evening that Russia is going to give up on Kiev and taking the whole country
Instead focussing it's effort on Donbas and the corridor to Crimea.
I suddenly have hopes this might just be a prelude to some sort of peace accord.
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Also a news report that Moscow wants this war done by May.
In time for their annual military parade, which no doubt they will want to make a victory parade.
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At the current rate of attrition they will be lucky to have a clapped out land rover and a hobbling donkey to parade in the may day parade.
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And the hobbling donkey should be on a recuperating farm, not made to parade through Moscow.
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The trick here maybe finding a way for both sides to claim some sort of victory.
Disguising the fact they are both big losers.
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The trick here maybe finding a way for both sides to claim some sort of victory.
Disguising the fact they are both big losers.
Absolutely, RD. Give Russia the Donbas region. Let Ukraine keep the rest, but with a proviso that they don't join Nato or the EU.
That's the nearest to a peace deal they'll get.
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Hopefully it will also signify the beginning of the end of Putin.
For anyone more knowledgeable than I am: If this does end with some kind of compromise, what’s the chances of Putin being tried for war crimes?
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Signs this evening that Russia is going to give up on Kiev and taking the whole country
Instead focussing it's effort on Donbas and the corridor to Crimea.
I suddenly have hopes this might just be a prelude to some sort of peace accord.
Does sound like very big news. Would appear that they've given up on Kiev and regime change.
Realistically, the very least that Putin will accept is the annexation of the Donbass and the SE coast. If he takes that and withdraws everywhere else, this might be coming to an end.
But that absolutely must not mean back to business as usual with Russia. They must be a pariah state after this.
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I do agree that Corbyn as PM in this crisis would have been a major problem.
Given that he strenuously attempted to claim that Putin wasn't responsible for chemical weapons attacks in Syria, it's hard to see NATO yesterday having had a unanimous line on the consequences of Putin using them in Ukraine.
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I don't think a pacifist can deal with a ruthless inhumane bas**rd who has virtually no consideration for humanity.
When it's someone who has a misguided admiration for the enemy...
Well.
Mahatma Ghandi used pacifism to appeal to the better nature of the British, he exposed the injustice and cruelty. Putin has no better nature. It's like dealing with the mafia.
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I doubt, very much indeed, if Putin will ever be tried for anything. I hope he is, but just who is going to fetch him out of Russia?
BobG
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Here's what one expert says
''Ukraine will not surrender one inch of land to Russia – the west must understand this''
Maria Zolkina
''Kyiv knows concessions will not bring security: on the contrary, they will provoke a new Russian offensive''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/mar/25/ukraine-west-russia-kyiv-russian-offensive
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I doubt, very much indeed, if Putin will ever be tried for anything. I hope he is, but just who is going to fetch him out of Russia?
BobG
Cut him off.
He's an old man, he won't last ten years in power, probably not five. Use the market to push for a more liberal Russia.
The FSO, the elite they are horrified at their lack of access to the West, to their holiday homes and private schools.
Even Putin himself with his Loro Piana clothes and handmade John Lobb shoes.
Russia is more integrated than it knew.
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God, I hope you're right RD!
BobG
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I doubt, very much indeed, if Putin will ever be tried for anything. I hope he is, but just who is going to fetch him out of Russia?
BobG
Not a chance in a million of Putin ever being tried. The job now is to get the fighting finished, accept the fait accompli of Russia controlling the Donbass and SE Black Sea coast (because: how do you reverse it without a bigger war that could spiral into Armageddon?) and then weaken Russia economically until the country finally comes to its senses and realises that it can never make serious net gains by war.
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And the general best placed to lead a coup against Putin has had a convenient heart attack.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AlexandruC4/status/1507473089952718851
Mind, if rumours of 15-20,000 Russian dead on his watch are true, it might well be a genuine heart attack.
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I like hoe people are criticising Corbyn for being a pacifist and asking for diplomacy instead of fighting - and the discussing how much Ukraine should give away to stop the fighting. Hmmm.
Personally I think the west should support Zelensky with whatever he wants to achieve what he wants to achieve. There will inevitably be talks between him and Putin at some point - fighting gets you in a position to make your demands at those talks. if you know your Von Clausewitz.
Supply him with arms and munitions to keep his army and people going along with public support to boost their morale. Whilst continuing the sanctions on Russia to destroy their morale and fighting capacity. Then it will soon be over.
Corbyn would have kicked the oligarchs out of the UK, would have wanted a more humanitarian and organised retreat from Afghanistan and would have had a stronger relationship with the EU from the off (bombs back in NI yesterday) - so Putin would not have thought Europe was divided - and there wouldn't have been a war in the first place.
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Wilts.
I get that Corbyn's heart is in the right place. But the Road to Hell and all that...
Two days into this war, his Stop the War group was still calling this a Russian "movement" into Ukraine and blaming NATO. Even as the missiles were landing, they couldn't bring themselves to call it an unprovoked invasion. A war of aggression.
Weakness like that is catnip to aggressors.
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This is one of the most persuasive pieces I've read on Putin's mentality.
https://www.spiegel.de/international/world/ivan-krastev-on-russia-s-invasion-of-ukraine-putin-lives-in-historic-analogies-and-metaphors-a-1d043090-1111-4829-be90-c20fd5786288
Doesn't make me feel particularly safe, mind.
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Here's the problem with Corbyn. This is HIS organisation.
https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/responding-to-the-terrible-events-in-ukraine-requires-context/
This is typical of their mentality.
"Yes it's terrible in Ukraine and yes Russia shouldn't...mumble, mumble blah, blah...BUT! NATO, NATO, NATO, NATO!!!"
At best, it's the politics of a fourth form school debate. At worst, they are Putin's fellow travellers.
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Here's the problem with Corbyn. This is HIS organisation.
https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/responding-to-the-terrible-events-in-ukraine-requires-context/
This is typical of their mentality.
"Yes it's terrible in Ukraine and yes Russia shouldn't...mumble, mumble blah, blah...BUT! NATO, NATO, NATO, NATO!!!"
At best, it's the politics of a fourth form school debate. At worst, they are Putin's fellow travellers.
Would I have felt safe with Corbyn trusted with national security ?
Absolutely not .
But are the Tories any less dangerous Billy given what we know and have known about dirty Russian money inside the Tory Party and the city of London , money that's bought political influence in the government .
Six and two three's perhaps .
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Wilts.
I get that Corbyn's heart is in the right place. But the Road to Hell and all that...
Two days into this war, his Stop the War group was still calling this a Russian "movement" into Ukraine and blaming NATO. Even as the missiles were landing, they couldn't bring themselves to call it an unprovoked invasion. A war of aggression.
Weakness like that is catnip to aggressors.
I believe you have missed my point. If Corbyn had been PM we wouldn't be here - it wouldn't have started.
Johnson was clearly part of Putin's foreign policy and his actions over the past few years have clearly played a part in this start of this invasion/war. How much or how knowingly I doubt we will know in our lifetime.
And a bit rich to be discussing how much of Ukraine to give away and then accuse someone else of giving 'catnip to aggressors'.
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Wilts.
That is wishful thinking of a very high order. You really think that Corbyn as PM would have prevented Putin's attack on Ukraine?
The only ways that the attack could have been averted were.
1) If Putin had known his forces were going to get a proper kicking.
Or
2) If Ukraine had been forced by the West to accept a status as a Russian vassal state.
Which of those do you think Corbyn would have been able to facilitate?
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The discussion of how much of Ukraine to give away is an acceptance of where the state of play now is. You want to tell me how Ukraine is supposed to drive Russia out of Crimea and the Donbass?
And on that topic, how much of Ukraine do you reckon would now be under Russian control had their army not been trained and armed by NATO countries? Which, presumably, Corbyn wouldn't have taken part in, because he believes if we just hold hands and sing songs, everyone will be nice to each other.
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The discussion of how much of Ukraine to give away is an acceptance of where the state of play now is. You want to tell me how Ukraine is supposed to drive Russia out of Crimea and the Donbass?
And on that topic, how much of Ukraine do you reckon would now be under Russian control had their army not been trained and armed by NATO countries? Which, presumably, Corbyn wouldn't have taken part in, because he believes if we just hold hands and sing songs, everyone will be nice to each other.
Plenty of evidence that suggests the Ukrainians are winning this war Billy and the longer it goes on the more they have the measure of Putin .
The question is how much blood are the Ukrainians prepared to shed to drive Putin totally out of Ukraine ? .
That's a difficult question to answer given the amount of civilian casualties so far and of course regrettably to come .
The Ukrainian death toll cannot be in vain , refugees fleeing the country cannot be in vain and these people cannot become victims to Putin and his war crimes .
There must be a future for them in Ukraine and they must have the option to return one day to a free Ukraine and rebuild their lives and the country .
This is incredibly hard I know but there can be no trade offs with a war criminal who invaded their country .
I take the point it's easy for me to say but my gut instinct is that the Ukrainians see it that way too .
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Ukraine aren't "winning" in the sense that they are going to easily, or even ever, be able to drive Russia out of Donbass or Crimea. They are holding their own in many places, and even pushing back in others. But that is against an invading force with pathetically incompetent and vulnerable supply lines.
Russian troops have been in charge in the Donbass and Crimea for nearly a decade. They are established. Fortified. They have no supply issues. Much of the public is on their side.
For Ukraine to expel them, it would take horrifically severe fighting over a long period. And critically, Putin cannot allow those areas to be lost. So there is no telling what lengths he would go to, what weapons he would use against the Ukraine army if he looked like losing.
It's a matter of fact that Crimea and much of the Donbass have been lost to Ukraine. Any peace deal has to recognise that, disgusting though it might sound. Because the alternative, at best, is a years long fight with losses of life running into the high hundreds of thousands, and the regions effectively destroyed anyway. And that would be the best outcome. The worst does not bear contemplating.
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There's a massive gulf in my opinion in threatening to use nuclear weapons and actually pressing the red button .
I take the point it's a high stakes game to say the least .
I'm far from convinced what ever Putin's mental state is those in his close circle are prepared to go that far personally .
I'm obviously not in that position and it's easy for me to say admittedly but I'd back calling his bluff instead of running scared of this tyrant and war criminal .
" who dares wins "
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He's already used chemical weapons in Syria. He's used nerve agent in Salisbury. Radioactive salts in London.
Are YOU going to trust your instincts that he wouldn't go further?
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He's already used chemical weapons in Syria. He's used nerve agent in Salisbury. Radioactive salts in London.
Are YOU going to trust your instincts that he wouldn't go further?
This is a totally different conflict Billy because it involves a major player on our doorstep with nuclear capability .
It's easy to react when that nuclear threat doesn't exist but it has to be seen off none the less .
If this bstrd comes away from this in a more powerful position then what then ?
That pryck dictating to the world ?
Nar , call his bluff .
Yes I know the consequences and it's easy to say .
But living under a constant threat from this pryck isn't exactly great either .
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Here's the problem with Corbyn. This is HIS organisation.
https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/responding-to-the-terrible-events-in-ukraine-requires-context/
This is typical of their mentality.
"Yes it's terrible in Ukraine and yes Russia shouldn't...mumble, mumble blah, blah...BUT! NATO, NATO, NATO, NATO!!!"
At best, it's the politics of a fourth form school debate. At worst, they are Putin's fellow travellers.
Would I have felt safe with Corbyn trusted with national security ?
Absolutely not .
But are the Tories any less dangerous Billy given what we know and have known about dirty Russian money inside the Tory Party and the city of London , money that's bought political influence in the government .
Six and two three's perhaps .
This is not reading tea leaves it's a known.
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I think in geopolitical terms Bidens comments on Putin today we're incredible and play right in to the hands of Putin. It gives them a great excuse to continue and forge a war on grounds of Russian state security.
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Tyke.
Putin does not come out of this stronger.
He was banking on:
a) His army being powerful
b) Ukraine surrendering
c) The EU being riven by internal splits
d) America being prepared to turn a blindish eye.
He has called every one of those wrong. He now knows that he can't attack anyone else militarily and gain more than he loses.
There is no outcome from here that isn't a huge defeat for Putin's strategic plans. The job now is to stop the bloodshed in a way that doesn't provoke him into risking bringing the whole world down.
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Wilts.
I get that Corbyn's heart is in the right place. But the Road to Hell and all that...
Two days into this war, his Stop the War group was still calling this a Russian "movement" into Ukraine and blaming NATO. Even as the missiles were landing, they couldn't bring themselves to call it an unprovoked invasion. A war of aggression.
Weakness like that is catnip to aggressors.
I believe you have missed my point. If Corbyn had been PM we wouldn't be here - it wouldn't have started.
Johnson was clearly part of Putin's foreign policy and his actions over the past few years have clearly played a part in this start of this invasion/war. How much or how knowingly I doubt we will know in our lifetime.
And a bit rich to be discussing how much of Ukraine to give away and then accuse someone else of giving 'catnip to aggressors'.
All this is known fact, is there any wonder that putin thought he was on safe ground doing whatever he pleased? As foreign secretary johnson openly blamed the EU for the Russian annexation of the Crimea ffs. All that followed was straight out of the Russian playbook.
''Back in 2009, Johnson was the newly elected mayor of London and Lebedev the son of a billionaire who had just bought the Evening Standard. The Standard was a stalwart supporter of Johnson, endorsing his 2012 reelection campaign. But the relationship between them was unusual for a politician and a newspaper proprietor.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/oct/21/parties-politics-peerages-boris-johnson-evgeny-lebedev-friendship
''Johnson: £160k tennis match did take place''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-43448559
''According to the Intelligence and Security Committee Russia report, released on 21 July 2020, there is substantial evidence that Russian interference in the British economy and politics is commonplace; namely Russian interference in the 2016 Brexit referendum, and further to this, evidence was uncovered detailing alleged disinformation following the 2014 Scottish independence referendum''
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_British_politics#:~:text=According%20to%20the%20Intelligence%20and,this%2C%20evidence%20was%20uncovered%20detailing
''Boris Johnson Allowed Russian Interference into the UK As Putin Prepared For War''
https://bylinetimes.com/2022/02/24/boris-johnson-allowed-russian-interference-into-the-uk-as-putin-prepared-for-war/
''Revealed: Russian donors have stepped up Tory funding''
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/revealed-russian-donors-have-stepped-tory-funding/
If we as a nation had done this to putin and russia there would be books written about it.
If this had happened under a labour government all those crying about not making this thread political would be screaming.
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Not really.
It more than likely would have all gone through without anyone mentioning it.
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Video going round of Ukrainian soldiers (allegedly) shooting Russian POW in the knee caps. Brutal and not good at all.
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Video going round of Ukrainian soldiers (allegedly) shooting Russian POW in the knee caps. Brutal and not good at all.
It's not good but it is understandable human nature to react that way when you see what's happening to your country. These guys will be angry and in some cases they won't be nice people at all.
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It's not understandable.
There are some vicious neo-fascist militias in Ukraine. They are as evil as Putin, just on a smaller scale.
There is never, ever justification for killing, mutilating or torturing prisoners of war. If Ukraine militia have been doing that, they should be decried, not excused. And they should be considered war criminals.
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It's not understandable.
There are some vicious neo-fascist militias in Ukraine. They are as evil as Putin, just on a smaller scale.
There is never, ever justification for killing, mutilating or torturing prisoners of war. If Ukraine militia have been doing that, they should be decried, not excused. And they should be considered war criminals.
Also, it strengthens Putin's insistence that the reason for the invasion is to liberate the people of the Donbas from the neo-nazi fascist Ukrainian leaders.
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Has it been authenticated by anyone?
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It's not understandable.
There are some vicious neo-fascist militias in Ukraine. They are as evil as Putin, just on a smaller scale.
There is never, ever justification for killing, mutilating or torturing prisoners of war. If Ukraine militia have been doing that, they should be decried, not excused. And they should be considered war criminals.
And yet you say “Put me in a room with Putin, give me a gun & I would gladly shoot him dead”.
No trial then.
I’m not condoning harming POW’s in any way shape or form. Just reminding you that everyone has a ‘flash point’.
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If that was the only way to stop him, of course I'd do that. He's Commander-in-Chief. He's a combatant. If the only way to eliminate him was an extra-judicial killing, of course I'd do that.
Better to have him incarcerated, but that is never going to happen. If he DID turn himself in and was no longer a threat, then he'd have all the rights of a PoW.
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Lads,
None of you is going to get the chance to have a crack at Vlad, so get back to the point.
If Russia now retreats to a position where Donbas and the Russian speaking areas become neutral, then what is the plan for the reconstruction?
Costs will be astronomical, and there is the difficulty of munitions and assault rifles distributed without recall.
These arms will in some part find a home with the ultra nationalist militias.
Cessation of military hostilities is paramount, but there has to be a strategy for after the conflict ends.
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Knee cappings , is it the Infamous Azov Brigade? Huge mistake as this sort of stuff could change the attitude of the Russian Soldiery, and we all know what they can achieve when fighting for a worthwhile cause, they should have kept it as Brothers killing brothers, now it will be Brothers killing Nazis!
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Wilts.
That is wishful thinking of a very high order. You really think that Corbyn as PM would have prevented Putin's attack on Ukraine?
The only ways that the attack could have been averted were.
1) If Putin had known his forces were going to get a proper kicking.
Or
2) If Ukraine had been forced by the West to accept a status as a Russian vassal state.
Which of those do you think Corbyn would have been able to facilitate?
Yes. As I have explained several times.
Putin invaded Ukraine because he believed the west, Europe, the US was divided, were willing to turn a blind eye to any military incurssions because they were beneffiting from Russian finance and oligarchs money in their economy - and some Western political parties were directly benefitting from Russian oligarchs money, his foreign political goal of dividing both US (Trump) and the EU (Brexit) was being realised, Russian medling in western domestic policies was beining ignored/covered-up and the chaotic retreat from Afghanistan showed him that the west were poorly organised organising a logistics campaign.
If Corbyn had won in 2019 - all of the above would have been different thus Putin would not be invading Ukraine. He would have had a better relationship with the EU, thus Europe would have been more united, the Afghan campaign would have been more humanitarian but more importantly he would have stopped London from being a haven for laundering Russian money (much of which is Putin's and none of which comes out of Russia without the agreement of Putin.
It's all guessing of course, but Putin attacked because he saw the world, especially Europe as divided. Under Corbyn it would have been less divided.
NATO has refused to intervene under Johnson - thus it can hardly have done less under Corbyn
NATO also trained Belorus Forces, some of which may have been deployed in Ukraine.
How Corbyn would have fared with this inavasion? He has always spoken of physically opposing fascism - is there any more of a demonstartion of fascism in action than bombing hospitals, shooting fleeing civilians and children in marked shelters. I think he would have provided exactly the same military support for Zelensky that Johnson has. The humanitarian response would have been far better.
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Lads,
None of you is going to get the chance to have a crack at Vlad, so get back to the point.
If Russia now retreats to a position where Donbas and the Russian speaking areas become neutral, then what is the plan for the reconstruction?
Costs will be astronomical, and there is the difficulty of munitions and assault rifles distributed without recall.
These arms will in some part find a home with the ultra nationalist militias.
Cessation of military hostilities is paramount, but there has to be a strategy for after the conflict ends.
It should be led by Ukraine.
In no way should we/the west be telling Zelensky what Ukraine can and cannot do - thats why he is fighting Putin.
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Video going round of Ukrainian soldiers (allegedly) shooting Russian POW in the knee caps. Brutal and not good at all.
It's bad enough to commit war crimes when you are trying to gain world public opinion (and help) on your side. But to commit war crimes and then post them on the internet - who thought that was a good idea?
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Wilts,
You are missing my point.
Yes, it should be led by Ukraine, but the country which emerges from the war will be different from that which entered it.
Ukraine is under-resourced for the reconstruction, and will need international support.
The country will remain militarised for the foreseeable, and is may be unstable politically in the wake.
Large inputs of military hardware will empower those who hold these resources, and no-one knows who will retain control of these munitions.
You are correct about Corbyn I think...he was Putin's worst nightmare, because he could not be corrupted.
This is why Vlad spent so much effort on Kompromat against the weak minded Johnson, and also directed Russian money to Mandelson by way of insurance.
The strategy of placing compromised dupes in positions of power started with Trump, continued through the Brexit debate, and then brought Johnson in as head of the right wing cult which took over the Tory Party.
If his intention was to weaken the western alliance, then selective deletion of the component parts of that alliance is the way Vlad chose the go.
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Looks like Abramovic has had a quaff from the special samovar.
The Russian state is simply disgusting.
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Looks like Abramovic has had a quaff from the special samovar.
The Russian state is simply disgusting.
I got the distinct impression that Abramovich was about to dish the dirt in a manner that Putin could not have aired.
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Didn’t one of Putins failed generals have a fatal heart attack a few days ago too.
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Not really Albie. I think the whole premise of your question is mute. We - the west - gave up any qualification to be able to say what any peace deal in Ukraine should look like once we - NATO - refused to give any military help and said 'go off and fight them on your own'.
Its up to Zelensky and the Ukraine government want to say what they want and for us to help them achieve it. I can't predict what they might be - but I reckon it will be expensive.
But yes where I do agree is that once you start giving highly advanced weaponry to people who you might not normally want to have it - that often has consequences beyond your control. The Mujahideen turning into Al Qaeda, Iraqi militia into IS and the Manchester bomber being trained by NATO in Libya being some of the most recent notorious examples. But sorry, I disagree that the west should be dictating anything to Zelensky about what 'we' want after the end of the fighting. It should be how can we help him get/do what he wants.
Wars and conflict are not as simple or black and white in reality as they are made out to be in films and books.
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Corbyn was Putin's worst nightmare?
I've seen some eulogising of the Blessed St Jeremy, but this takes the biscuit.
This is Corbyn who obfuscated over Salisbury. Corbyn who argued that there was no proof Putin was facilitating gassing of Syrians. Corbyn who, even as this disaster was unfolding, headed a group that couldn't even bring itself to call it an invasion and insisted it was NATO's fault.
One of the key reasons why Putin's forces didn't just waltz into Kiev is that the Ukraine army has been trained and equipped by NATO countries. Do you honestly believe that Corbyn would have agreed to that?
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This will please Tyke no end.
WARNING!! GRAPHIC CONTENT. VERY DISTURBING FOOTAGE.
https://twitter.com/Georgelg13/status/1508468381707649028?t=OJqPYXGut3m5KoG1C5XiXg&s=19
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And for balance, this little Ukrainian girl was very lucky.
https://twitter.com/avalaina/status/1508527343576530952?t=WDe_d3lVMubyeYaFIuawhw&s=19
It's civilians of both sides i feel for whilst the fat elite w**kers play war chess.
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I'm struggling to see what the "war chess" is that Ukraine is playing. They have been invaded by a f**king thug. He is the number one criminal in this.
There are some evil Kitsons on the far right in Ukrainian militias and I'd like to see those individuals wiped off the face of the earth.
But on the big scale, there's no equality between the crimes of Putin's Russia and the actions of Ukraine. Anyone who blurs those lines is one of Putin's useful idiots.
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Jesus f**kin wept. Its clearly still the BST forum and not the VSC.
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Not really Albie. I think the whole premise of your question is mute. We - the west - gave up any qualification to be able to say what any peace deal in Ukraine should look like once we - NATO - refused to give any military help and said 'go off and fight them on your own'.
Wilts Ukraine is not a member of Nato so troops on the ground are not an option, Nato is a defensive organisation designed to protect its members. Now if you had said United Nations there might be a slightly different argument. However Nato countries are helping to supply arms to Ukraine but to help with troops on the ground so to speak is a totally different kettle of fish and WW3 would be upon us
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Jesus f**kin wept. Its clearly still the BST forum and not the VSC.
Which bit of my post did you disagree with?
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BST, I cannot be f**kin arsed with you. Forum ruined.
See ya later.
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I still don't get which part of my post you have an issue with.
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BST,
My reference to Corbyn was about corruptibility, and the programme of kompromat that Putin has been following for years. The post makes that clear, so the comments you make are not relevant.
The training and equipping of Ukraine before the conflict is one reason Putin gave for invasion.
It is a pretext, but should he be given cover?
Wilts,
I did not say that the west should dictate anything to Ukraine.
I do think that the post war reconstruction will need support from the international community.
In my experience, such support usually comes with strings attached.
I hope that in this case that is not so, but I doubt that will be how it goes.
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Albie.
You think Putin wouldn't have invaded Ukraine if the Ukrainian army had not been strengthened? Cover is a minor issue compared to what would have happened if the Ukrainian army had simply rolled over. And you think that Putin didn't have both bases covered with the main parties led by Johnson and Corbyn? You emphasise the kompromat, but ignore the useful idiot cover that Corbyn has provided for years. Yes Corbyn beatifically claims he stands for no aggression by anyone, but in practice that has meant his folk deliberately choosing to play down aggression by Russia "in case it deflects attention from bigger crimes by the West".
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I think what has been shown here in this debate is that circumstances would have been different under a corbyn led government but noone can say that they would have been worse or better in terms of the invasion of the Ukraine.
Could anyone, did anyone predict the appalling decisions and non decision that have been made in respect of British citizens and governance of the UK since 2010?
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And could more preventative work have been done?
''Weak sanctions creates 'dangerous illusion' for Russia, Zelenskiy says
Finally, Zelenskiy delivered some emphatic lines regarding sanctions imposed on Russia.
Ukraine cannot and will not agree with the passive sanctions position of some entities towards Russia. There should be no ‘suspended’ sanctions packages - that if the Russian troops do something, then there will be some answer...
We went through this story last year when we said that strong preventive sanctions against Russia were needed to prevent an invasion. The preventive package was not made. A full-scale war has begun.
There are now many hints and warnings that sanctions will be tightened, such as an embargo on Russian oil supplies to Europe, if Russia uses chemical weapons. There are simply no words.”
Zelenskiy continued to claim a tightening of sanctions now depends on Russia’s use of chemical weapons.
Just think about what it all came down to. Waiting for chemical weapons... We, living people, have to wait… Doesn’t everything that the Russian military is doing and has already done deserve an oil embargo? Don’t phosphorus bombs deserve that? Do the shelled chemical production or nuclear power plant deserve that?
Zelenskiy urged for sanctions packages to be “effective and substantial”.
If the sanctions packages are weak or do not work enough, if they can be circumvented, it creates a dangerous illusion for the Russian leadership that they can continue to afford what they are doing now. And Ukrainians pay for it with their lives. Thousands of lives.”
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BST,
Not at all.
I think Putin had the intention of invading Ukraine from at least 2014, when he annexed Crimea.
The real question is whether the western alliance understood this in 2014, and what actions they could have taken to prevent an invasion.
The influence of Russian money was a key component of the strategy to directly influence election processes and outcomes in the west.
I don't think Putin had all bases covered at all, but that he targeted key players that were vulnerable to his influence. The salami slicing of political options in the governance of the western economies has been a central aim since his acceptance by new Labour in the Blair years.
Enough for now.
Plenty of background work on Putin and his foreign policy agenda elsewhere.
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Albie.
Putin gave both Johnson and Corbyn that which they most desired.
Johnson: Support to get to the top of the pole.
Corbyn: someone to cling to who was not the thing he truly hates more than anything in the world - American capitalism.
He played them both, but in both cases it's just icing on the cake. He was always going to invade Ukraine.
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I think what has been shown here in this debate is that circumstances would have been different under a corbyn led government but noone can say that they would have been worse or better in terms of the invasion of the Ukraine.
Could anyone, did anyone predict the appalling decisions and non decision that have been made in respect of British citizens and governance of the UK since 2010?
I wouldn’t think that anyone could argue with that first paragraph and obviously no one can say whether things would have been worse or better because it would be guessing.
With regards to the second paragraph, there aren’t too many people who can see into the future with any real certainty.
I seem to recall someone back in 1997 saying that Tory Britain has gone for good.
That didn’t come to pass did it.
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Not really Albie. I think the whole premise of your question is mute. We - the west - gave up any qualification to be able to say what any peace deal in Ukraine should look like once we - NATO - refused to give any military help and said 'go off and fight them on your own'.
Wilts Ukraine is not a member of Nato so troops on the ground are not an option, Nato is a defensive organisation designed to protect its members. Now if you had said United Nations there might be a slightly different argument. However Nato countries are helping to supply arms to Ukraine but to help with troops on the ground so to speak is a totally different kettle of fish and WW3 would be upon us
Nor were NATO involved in the Falklands or invasion of Iraq. If any western country had wished to send troops to assist Ukraine they could have done. NATO was a convienient excuse not to do so.
The UK and US guaranteed the territorial integrity of Ukraine iin the Budapest Memorandum - not NATO.
I agree it a NATO country had provided direct support then that could have led to escalation and Putin launching missiles. But that was a political choice by the individual countries, esp US & UK - they said to Ukraine, here's some guns, good luck you're on your own.
And as you picked out that comment from a post on how Corbyn would have dealt differently to the run up than Johnson - what would any different leader have done differently on the day of invasion? Kind of proves my point.
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BST,
"Corbyn: someone to cling to who was not the thing he truly hates more than anything in the world - American capitalism".
Sorry, but I think this is complete nonsense.
The whole Putin programme has been about the exercise of power through gangster capitalism, despotic political control directing resources towards those open to corrupt influence.
Far from despising American Capitalism, Putin seeks to extend it beyond Liberal politics into his own context. To achieve that, he wants to undermine the democratic process in those countries, to set up shadow proxies supportive of Russian foreign policy ambitions.
Sadly, he has had some success in changing the nature of political debate in the west.
There is a strong possibility of Trump returning in 2024, which would be a coup for Putin.
I think your dislike of Corbyn is preventing you from open discussion on this, as on other matters. I guess we just have to agree to differ on this.
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Albie
I can only assume you've not spent a lifetime following the politics of the far left in the UK.
The long term aim may well be the global overthrow of capitalism. But the shorter term tactic, always was and still is to identify the number 1 enemy and focus n them. And consequently, you support either explicitly where you can, or implicitly where explicit support would be too embarrassing, anyone who is an enemy of the number 1 enemy.
You will never understand Corbyn's approach to foreign policy unless you see it through that lens. Look at it that way and everything he and his group have ever said makes perfect sense.
Here are just a few examples of Corbyn's foreign policy stances that make no sense whatsoever if you don't understand what the real aim is.
1) He befriended a prominent denier of the Srebrenica massacre. This is a totem for many on the far Left, Noam Chomsky being the most prominent. That only makes any sense if your aim is to not critcise Serbia, one of the most prominent of anti-American European countries.
2) Connected with that, Corbyn wrote a rambling piece in the Morning Star, saying that NATO used the example of Srebrenica as an excuse to take action in Kosovo that was really about extending American power. That was bizarre in as much as America has very little strategic interest in the region. Corbyn said nothing about the impending massacre of Kosovans by Serbians that was averted by the NATO action - because that would have meant him directly criticising Serbia.
3) He learned a lesson from that. He got a kicking from many on the less extreme left, and a couple of years ago tweeted his support for the Srebrenica memorial day. https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1282003750069116929 But note the language. This is classic Corbyn. Whenever someone who he doesn't want to criticise is responsible for a massacre, like Serbia at Srebrenica, he never mentions them. He uses the line that all violence is wrong. Compare and contrast with his volcanic, direct and explicit criticism of any atrocities committed by the West.
4) His response to Salisbury was astonishing. Our own services was saying that there had been an attack on British residents on British soil by a hostile power and what did Corbyn say in Parliament? Not a word of criticism of the Putin regime in the first two debates. Not one word. But a suggestion that we should accede to a Russian request to be sent a smaple of the nerve agent so they could run their own tests.
5) A month later when Putin's puppet Assad used chemical weapons in Douma, Corbyn was immediately decrying it...but as ever, in the most generic terms. https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/983101179310768128 He called for the UN to investigate, in the full knowledge that Russia had blocked a plan for the UN to send investigators.
6) His past attitudes on Ukraine are...well, let's say "nuanced". Writing after the annexation of Crimea, even he couldn't entirely turn a blind eye to Russian aggression. But he buries it in a single line after waffle about the fluidity of Ukraine's borders, & talk about neo-Nazis and before launching into the standard NATO-blame game. https://www.stopwar.org.uk/article/the-history-lurking-behind-the-crisis-in-ukraine-by-jeremy-corbyn-mp/ Note that this is within weeks of a Russian military invasion.
If you see Corbyn as the even handed evangelist of peace, none of those actions make any sense at all. If you wake up and realise that it's all about diluting attacks on America's opponents and focussing your fire o America and the West, it all makes sense.
And if you still don''t get it, Corbyn's own spin doctor Seamus Milne instructed the inner circle not to emphasise Putin's war crimes in Syria In case it defected attention from what he called "the bigger crimes of the West".
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You still don't get it at all, do you BST?
It is NOT about Corbyn, it IS about Putin.
The post above is a classic example of what I said about your dislike of Corbyn getting in the way.
Looking for reasons to connect the left to Putin, instead of looking for the reasons and motivations for the actions of Putin.
Well, you can lead a horse to water.......take a sip of the Kool-aid, Lad!
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Of course the two are connected. You claim that Corbyn is Putin's worst enemy.
I give you chapter and verse on why I think Corbyn, far from being his worst enemy, was at best a useful idiot for Putin.
You can engage with that or move the goalposts.
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So, if continued peace talks eventually result in Donbass being annexed from Ukraine do you think the West should maintain all sanctions on Russia as a guarantor against any further incursions?
If so for how long?
In addition, should some of the frozen assets be used to help Ukraine rebuild what Putin destroyed?
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Corbyn and the Stop the War brigade weren't very prominent at the protests in London about the Ukraine conflict were they?
Funny that. If there is one thing Corbyn normally enjoys it's a big demo.
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Ammunition Depot in Belogrod on fire tonight. Thought to be from a missile strike.
Belogrod is 25 miles inside Russia from the Ukraine border. If this was a Ukraine attack - I believe this is the first foreign offensive action on Russian territory since WW2.
https://twitter.com/mi6rogue/status/1508892153300324364
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I think they attacked a Russian airfield a few miles over the border a few days after the outbreak, Wilts.
Edit. Here.
https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news-detail/ukraine-reportedly-strikes-russian-airbase
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Oh splendid... That is brilliant, vengeful, escalatory, dangerous. But then, it's war...
BobG
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Not sure if the Ukraine attacking military targets in Russia can be deemed an escalation but an expansion of the war theatre to spread enemy forces for sure.
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I wouldn't say targeting military installations over the border is vengeful.
That ammunition is being stored there to use against people in Ukraine. It's no less a target than the supply ship they took out the other day
That airbase is a launchpad for attacks in Ukraine.
If they were bombing civilians in a neighbouring town it would be different
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Just read a stunning article in the paper that claims Ukraine has more tanks now than when war began!
Apparently scavenging and fixing up lost Russian tanks and vehicles is a very successful tactic and it's all Soviet equipment they know how to use.
The articles goes so far as to claim Russia has become Ukraine biggest weapons supplier.
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I wouldn't say targeting military installations over the border is vengeful.
That ammunition is being stored there to use against people in Ukraine. It's no less a target than the supply ship they took out the other day
That airbase is a launchpad for attacks in Ukraine.
If they were bombing civilians in a neighbouring town it would be different
Agree fully with this as a person in the western world and is aware of what is going on.
Unfortunately it has the side-effect of providing Putin with an opportunity to falsely say to his people how justified he was to try and ‘liberate’ Ukrainians from the ‘extremists’
But as I said above that is a side effect. If the attacks have given Ukraine a better chance of resisting Russia’s aggression then that is IMHO more important to them.
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Just read a stunning article in the paper that claims Ukraine has more tanks now than when war began!
Apparently scavenging and fixing up lost Russian tanks and vehicles is a very successful tactic and it's all Soviet equipment they know how to use.
The articles goes so far as to claim Russia has become Ukraine biggest weapons supplier.
It's not only hardware.
Apparently there is a thing called The Russian Freedom Legion. POWs realising they were used as cannon fodder, taking Ukraine citizenship and going back into battle for the other side.
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Just read a stunning article in the paper that claims Ukraine has more tanks now than when war began!
Apparently scavenging and fixing up lost Russian tanks and vehicles is a very successful tactic and it's all Soviet equipment they know how to use.
The articles goes so far as to claim Russia has become Ukraine biggest weapons supplier.
Yes I have seen that on t'interweb - brilliant!
Thanks for the earlier answer btw.
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I see that Putin is claiming that he wasn’t aware of how badly his forces were doing in the quest to take Ukraine.
Apparently his advisors were scared to tell him the truth.
The sceptic in me suggests that he has started the process of telling the World that he wasn’t aware of the bombing of civilian areas too.
Using his get out of jail card perhaps.
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60936117
I used to work for an authoritarian boss who had employees terrified to contradict him. It was horrific. There were four mental breakdowns, two complete physical breakdowns and an attempted suicide in the 4 years I was there. When we had planning meetings with him, we would pitch the opposite idea of what we wanted so that he would condescendingly criticise us and chuck it out, giving us the result we really wanted.
I finally screwed up the courage to call him a liar to his face when he tried to stiff me for a job that had gone badly wrong because of changes he'd made to my plans. Facing him down was the emotionally hardest thing I've ever done. I was shaking and nearly retching when I left his office.
But I could go home, apply for a new job and hand in my notice. What the f**k do the head of the FSB or the armed forces do when faced with a boss like Putin?
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https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-60936117
I used to work for an authoritarian boss who had employees terrified to contradict him. It was horrific. There were four mental breakdowns, two complete physical breakdowns and an attempted suicide in the 4 years I was there. When we had planning meetings with him, we would pitch the opposite idea of what we wanted so that he would condescendingly criticise us and chuck it out, giving us the result we really wanted.
I finally screwed up the courage to call him a liar to his face when he tried to stiff me for a job that had gone badly wrong because of changes he'd made to my plans. Facing him down was the emotionally hardest thing I've ever done. I was shaking and nearly retching when I left his office.
But I could go home, apply for a new job and hand in my notice. What the f**k do the head of the FSB or the armed forces do when faced with a boss like Putin?
Well i'm just happy he didn't break you and you managed to become the nice, pleasant , amiable and friendly chap we all like to have a chat with. :)
Seriously now, that does sound horrific and no one should have to deal with people like that in the workplace. Thankfully much stronger legislation is now in place to remove these types and allow people to have their ideas and work respected and treated fairly, hope the affects are over and you have moved on.
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My ex-boss died before he got the public kicking he deserved over his responsibility for the Hillsborough disaster. My old line manager, a fine, decent, principled man who was broken by that bas**rd ended up in tears in the witness box at the Hillsborough Inquest, as he related what it was like working in that office.
Anyone with power who refuses to listen to criticism is a very, very dangerous person.
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Exactly! Every team, everywhere, really should have an awkward sod, an ornery cuss, to challenge the onset of groupthink, of 'fearthink' Although they've had some pretty serious man management failures, when it comes to sainthoods the Catholic Church is still the best at this. They call it the 'Devils Advocate'.
BobG
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Another link, apposite word, for those interested in the complicity of sections of the UK political establishment with the actions of Russia over the last decade
https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1509414334828589059?s=20&t=JqVrY4DktjeVbfoYHn7ktQ
BobG
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Another link, apposite word, for those interested in the complicity of sections of the UK political establishment with the actions of Russia over the last decade
https://twitter.com/ByDonkeys/status/1509414334828589059?s=20&t=JqVrY4DktjeVbfoYHn7ktQ
BobG
Looks like we have the best run and funded donkey sanctuary in Europe.
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Ukraine has managed to hit another target in Russia early this morning.
A couple of helicopters have managed to attack an oil depot at Belgorod, 25 miles over the border. Again another strategic target that can be seen as a defensive action.
They seem determined to carry the fight to the Russians. The danger here is one of these missions could go wrong, accidentally hitting a civilian site.
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Ukraine has managed to hit another target in Russia early this morning.
A couple of helicopters have managed to attack an oil depot at Belgorod, 25 miles over the border. Again another strategic target that can be seen as a defensive action.
They seem determined to carry the fight to the Russians. The danger here is one of these missions could go wrong, accidentally hitting a civilian site.
In my opinion, after Russia attacking Ukraine, any target in Russia is fair game for the Ukrainians
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I agree Filo but as Dutch points out, such attacks might be used for propaganda purposes. It could be used to justify the war to the Russian population, evidence Ukraine genuinely is a threat.
On the other hand it does demonstrate to the Russians it's more than just a special military operation.
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Thanks RD. I may have missed it but so far Ukraine has not claimed responsibility yet. Helicopters could potentially fly very low 40km into presumably heavily defended Russian airspace, but it is a high risk mission. Then again we have seen that the Russian soldiers on the ground have not performed very well.
The worry raised is that it might be a false flag Russian incident, and that would suggest the Russians might be preparing to escalate e.g. chemical or biological or tactical nuclear (probably artillery) weapons. I really hope not.
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I missed this last week. Christ, this is powerful.
https://twitter.com/jackeparrock/status/1507386974851805194?cxt=HHwWlMC98fKdqOspAAAA
It's really not before time that someone finally called out Orban's Hugary. Orban has been a fascist cuckoo in the European nest for a decade. Putin's man right where he needed one. It's taken Zelensky to stare him in the eyes and tell him what he is.
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What a man....
Russia is creating the next leader of absolute worldwide stature. I hope they enjoy what they have done.
BobG
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General Election in Hungary today.
This is Zelensky's contribution.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ukrinform.net/amp/rubric-polytics/3447117-zelensky-to-orban-we-saw-no-effort-to-stop-war.html
Let's see if the Hungarian people really DO want to be ruled by a Putin-supporting fascist when the chips are down.
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He's very impressive with impeccable timing and knows exactly which buttons to press.
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Reports of horrendous finds in relieved towns war crimes at their worst
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Reports of horrendous finds in relieved towns war crimes at their worst
None of which should be surprising. Either as deliberate policy from a nationalist thug/bully, or as the deranged panicked reactions of terrified barely adult conscripts, these sort of horrors were inevitable.
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Reports of horrendous finds in relieved towns war crimes at their worst
None of which should be surprising. Either as deliberate policy from a nationalist thug/bully, or as the deranged panicked reactions of terrified barely adult conscripts, these sort of horrors were inevitable.
Why Mad Vlad should never again be accepted on the World Stage, sanctions must be kept until he’s overthrown and executed for War Crimes
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Russia is confirmed to have lost over 400 tanks since the beginning of the invasion. As they began with 1200 thats over a 1/3rd of their armour gone - amazing.
https://twitter.com/oryxspioenkop/status/1510632351050899456
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Does anyone know if that loss of 400 tanks from 1,200 is the ENTIRE Russian stock of battleworthy tanks or was that 1,200 just what they sent to Ukraine? I confess I thought they'd have a lot more than 1,200.
BobG
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General Election in Hungary today.
This is Zelensky's contribution.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ukrinform.net/amp/rubric-polytics/3447117-zelensky-to-orban-we-saw-no-effort-to-stop-war.html
Let's see if the Hungarian people really DO want to be ruled by a Putin-supporting fascist when the chips are down.
Ha ha ha!! That'll knock his Christmas card from Orban on the bonce for sure. Two men. Both exceptional. From opposite ends of the entire human spectrum. I can only think of Nicolas Maduro as equalling, or excelling tbh, the sheer self interested nastiness of Orban.
BobG
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Orban wins again. Promising cheap fuel from Russia.
Still refusing to supply weapons.
Interesting to see how the EU, and NATO view this continuing.
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He is a symbol of everything that is wrong with our capitalist world. Selfish, immoral, corrupt. I know these behaviours aren't any direct result of capitalism, but that's the world we live in, and that's the behaviours we see. So it's either humanity in general, in which case we might as well give up now, or it's time for a change to our system.
BobG
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So Hungary has made its choice. It has sided with a fascist thug even when he attacked their next door neighbour.
There will be consequences.
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I guess if russia has been just as helpful in UK votes and elections ...............
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Another thought. If a bunch of motivated untrained civilians, a good small army and good supply lines can knock the stuffing out of a decently large Russian army what does that imply about the future of conflict?
It's not so easy to visualise this being tried again in its current form. So what is the future? Robosoldiers? Space blackmail? Cyber? I bet there's some very serious analysis and thinking going on around the world right now.
BobG
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Reports of horrendous finds in relieved towns war crimes at their worst
This is disgusting with a count likely to be in the hundreds, there are no excuses, we cannot allow them to get away with these crimes, we cannot possibly allow the russians to attach the word success to this war.
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But if we don't, Sydney, that pushes Putin into a serious corner. I doubt very much if anybody here, or on this planet, wants to do that. There's more than one way to skin a cat. His time will come.
BobG
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Another thought. If a bunch of motivated untrained civilians, a good small army and good supply lines can knock the stuffing out of a decently large Russian army what does that imply about the future of conflict?
It's not so easy to visualise this being tried again in its current form. So what is the future? Robosoldiers? Space blackmail? Cyber? I bet there's some very serious analysis and thinking going on around the world right now.
BobG
The drone fleet of the us and uk alone would obliterate the entire Russian ground army with little or no resistance. In very little time.
The west are way way ahead of their combat tech, not just in drones, but in every other major military advancement.
While ever he has access to the big red button though, we must remain very very cautious.
It’s worth repeating a comment Putin made not long ago:
“ a world without Russia would not be worth living in”
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Another thought. If a bunch of motivated untrained civilians, a good small army and good supply lines can knock the stuffing out of a decently large Russian army what does that imply about the future of conflict?
It's not so easy to visualise this being tried again in its current form. So what is the future? Robosoldiers? Space blackmail? Cyber? I bet there's some very serious analysis and thinking going on around the world right now.
BobG
The drone fleet of the us and uk alone would obliterate the entire Russian ground army with little or no resistance. In very little time.
The west are way way ahead of their combat tech, not just in drones, but in every other major military advancement.
While ever he has access to the big red button though, we must remain very very cautious.
It’s worth repeating a comment Putin made not long ago:
“ a world without Russia would not be worth living in”
This is spot on. Some weeks ago there was a fascinating programme on the radio where they compared UK, NATO, Russian and Chinese forces. The UK, though obviously much smaller, was light years ahead of both the Russians and Chinese in terms of technology, response capabilities and future advancement. As quoted above, the drone fleet of the UK is enough to cause devastation when directed against any army in the world. Marry this capability with the other NATO countries and you've got a hugely powerful force that absolutely no other country in the world could come close to competing against. Armed conflict isn't a numbers game anymore; a force relatively light on manpower can beat a much larger force comprehensively if it has the necessary technology and (this is the important bit) people skilled enough to use it effectively. And this is what makes the UK and USA stand out. Even the majority of other NATO countries are behind the UK and USA when it comes to this. I've no doubt at all that if Russia puts one boot into a NATO country, much of their force would be destroyed before it left the barracks. However, as Normal correctly states, while Russia has the Nuclear option, we must tread carefully.
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The news reported yesterday that Russia has lost an incredible amount of tanks in the last few weeks. 360 lost, half of which were either abandoned or captured.
And the factory that produces them no longer has parts to make more.
Take Putins land Army away from him and he will become a very cornered rat.
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Orban wins again. Promising cheap fuel from Russia.
Still refusing to supply weapons.
Interesting to see how the EU, and NATO view this continuing.
Very interesting question.
While NATO seems to have tolerated, however squeamishly, Erdogan because of Turkey’s strategic importance, Turkey is not a member of the EU.
So that might suggest Hungary might find relatively muted criticism within NATO, but might the EU threaten Hungary with expulsion?
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Orban wins again. Promising cheap fuel from Russia.
Still refusing to supply weapons.
Interesting to see how the EU, and NATO view this continuing.
Very interesting question.
While NATO seems to have tolerated, however squeamishly, Erdogan because of Turkey’s strategic importance, Turkey is not a member of the EU.
So that might suggest Hungary might find relatively muted criticism within NATO, but might the EU threaten Hungary with expulsion?
The EU brains trust must be in overdrive on this very question, if they dump them out Russia will will chalk that one up.
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Orban wins again. Promising cheap fuel from Russia.
Still refusing to supply weapons.
Interesting to see how the EU, and NATO view this continuing.
Very interesting question.
While NATO seems to have tolerated, however squeamishly, Erdogan because of Turkey’s strategic importance, Turkey is not a member of the EU.
So that might suggest Hungary might find relatively muted criticism within NATO, but might the EU threaten Hungary with expulsion?
Making Hungary a vassal state would almost certainly open a door for Putins global game of risk he seems to be playing. Hungary is an odd one. They are happy to take refugees , but not supply arms. NATO and the EU will want to stand firm and continue to show a United front will be the overarching feeling in Brussels though IMO. Any sign of weakness in the union will be exploited by the Kremlin.
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The news reported yesterday that Russia has lost an incredible amount of tanks in the last few weeks. 360 lost, half of which were either abandoned or captured.
And the factory that produces them no longer has parts to make more.
Take Putins land Army away from him and he will become a very cornered rat.
Incredibly a lot of parts and weapons the Russian military uses are manufactured in Ukraine.
Apparently a lot of their missles use propulsion systems manufactured in Ukraine. Chances are they have been blowing up these factories.
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The world, the part of it that wants this to stop has to get tougher with sanctions which would play a big part in deterring any other rogue nation from doing similar.
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Guess what? It's all our fault!
Vladimir Solovyov, the Western sanctioned popular state presenter on his Sunday night talk show said that the killings were planned by Britain.
“The war against Russia entered a new phase today. Very soon they’ll accuse us of genocide. To all appearances this whole provocation was plotted by the British,” Solovyov said.
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He has made his name on that talk show spreading vile misinformation about the west and Europe.
Yet he owns two mansions on the Amalfi coast he now cannot visit.
Cry away chump.
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Victor has just been elected again by his people. He sticks up for his country and their values. He knows what’s best for them and doesn’t care what anyone thinks of him. I like him.
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Victor has just been elected again by his people. He sticks up for his country and their values. He knows what’s best for them and doesn’t care what anyone thinks of him. I like him.
You and Mr Putin.
Mr Orban has rewritten the constitution, filled the top courts with his appointees and changed the electoral system to his advantage, he also prevents the opposition from having fair access to the media and uses state funds to pay for his campaign.
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Orban wins again. Promising cheap fuel from Russia.
Still refusing to supply weapons.
Interesting to see how the EU, and NATO view this continuing.
Very interesting question.
While NATO seems to have tolerated, however squeamishly, Erdogan because of Turkey’s strategic importance, Turkey is not a member of the EU.
So that might suggest Hungary might find relatively muted criticism within NATO, but might the EU threaten Hungary with expulsion?
Dutch.
The idea seems to be to show tolerance to Hungary, rather than push them further into Putin's clutches.
Seems to me Hungary is behaving like a stroppy teenager. Wants to be independent and play with the tough kids down the road. Tells its parents to f**k off on a regular basis. But still wants the X-Box and the mobile phone driving lessons and the holidays paid for.
I think it's getting mightily close to time for some tough love. If Hungary really wants to idolise the rough kids, it's time to tell them unequivocally then need to make a decision whether to stay under the EU roof or move in with Russia. One or the other. After this war, you cannot play both sides anymore.
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But don't you think that the rushed enlargement of the EU fostered this attitude from the Hungarians, they know they can have all the toys and dad wont take them away for fear of them running off to bad uncle Vlad. I know the British pushed for this enlargement of the EU to get all the former soviet countries into the club so as to promote future prosperity and openness when really wanting to dived and rule the union from within, bit this has done us or the EU no favours in the long run.
The association agreement for these eastern states should of been over a longer time frame to allow the gradual opening up and equalising of their markets and economy. It seems that the Hungarian public have decided that they quite like playing off the EU, i would be very surprised if the Commissioners don't start to change the rules very soon to prevent this happening in the numerous accession candidate states.
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No I don't think Hungary has behaved like it had done because...EU.
If that was the reason then Romania and Estonia and half a dozen more would be cosying up to Russia.
And they are not.
Hungary is doing so because they gave power to a nasty would-be fascist who sees Putin as his big brother, and whose popularity is built on overt racism and baiting the liberal democracies of Western Europe.
I think it's now time to tell them to walk the f**king walk to be honest.
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Very tricky one for the EU to play this.
After all the Hungarian people have made their decision in a free democratic election.
Also I believe a majority of the Hungarian populace is in favour of continued EU membership.
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Two members of the European parliament said they expected the European Commission to launch the “rule of law conditionality mechanism” against Hungary, a legal process that could ultimately switch off billions in EU payments to Budapest
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Biden has come out again and called Putin a War criminal.
That’s going to leave a very unpleasant taste in Putins mouth. Again.
If he ever becomes sought by the International Criminal Court, there will be many countries he will never ever be able to safely step foot in ever again.
He will become another Saddam Hussein, another Ratko Miladic. Another Radovan Karadic.
Never again will he step foot on European soil.
He will have to be careful on any luxury Yacht he sails on too in future.
International waters won’t be safe for him.
His huge world will start becoming very very small.
The walls are closing in on him.
The rat is getting cornered.
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It's really not difficult Branton. Hungary is only "democratic" if you think democracy comprises nothing more than having elections.
Orban has neutered the judiciary and the media. He has given himself sweeping powers to rule effectively by diktat.
The EU has been in a position for several years where it could have, if it wished, taken punitive action against Hungary as a member state flouting basic democratic norms. It has not done because it preferred the arm round the shoulder to the kick up the arse.
Now that Hungary has re-empowered a Poundland fascist, it's time for a very, very big kick up the arse.
.the Hungarians want to be in the EU? Fine. Start behaving like a civilised democracy then. Otherwise, the door eastward is there and you can shut it behind you on the way to Moscow.
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Whilst Hungary is a political embarrasment the main country the world need to be leading on now is India. Refused to impose sanctions, doing a massive amount of trade with Russia (in which certain UK politicans are personaly benefiting) they two now seem to be conspiring to get around Russia's Swift ban. Putin, Orban, Modi, all the fascist's together.
https://www.ft.com/content/a5ee2d6b-693f-475d-80c6-0036c2657ef1
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Some stuff beyond words or nightmares coming out of Mikolayiv. Russian soldiers are claimed to have murdered 4 women from a family after raping a 3 year old.
Horrific. Just horrific. I thought we had left this barbarism behind.
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Following on from that BST, Russia gets billions every month from countries like Germany for oil and gas.
Fears are that stopping the importation of fuel from Russia will plunge us all into a deep recession.
Some things are more important than money and these horrific scenes from Ukraine are the clearest sign yet that it's immoral to continue to do business with them.
Whatever the cost.
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I've spent years warning like a crazy person of the danger of allowing ourselves to lose our grip on Objective Truth.
This is why. This is where it leads.
https://t.co/vqmNjS4qbu
Give yourself half an hour to watch what the future holds if you do not hold every politician to account when they deny the idea of Objective Truth. It ends here. With prominent politicians ignoring war crimes, civilian murder, rape and torture because they are prepared to say that in their version of the truth, it is t happening.
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Agreed TT. Germany has made a disastrous pact with the devil. They will suffer badly if they stop importing Russian energy. But they will suffer more if they don't. Especially with the news that's likely to come out this week as more and more towns defiled by the Russian invaders are returned to Ukraine.
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Apparently the Prosecutor general of Ukraine is saying the situation in the town of Borodyanka is significantly worse than Bucha or the other satellite towns of Kiev. It makes me wonder how it could possibly be worse. Just a lot more of the same I think.
And then there will be Mariupol. Which might possibly never be revealed to us.
It makes me feel sick to the pit of my stomach.
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Me too RD.
I'm on holiday tonight. Reading about this bestiality. And wondering if humanity deserves a future.
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Trouble is BST, the Yanks are full of this shite too. They have a helluva lot of folk who deny objective truth all day, every day. And they export it....
BobG
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Unfortunately the rouble recovered somewhat, hopefully this will put a dent in it .....
''Russia’s sovereign bond coupon payments stopped: US Treasury source
Russia’s latest sovereign bond coupon payments have been stopped, a source familiar with the matter and a spokeswoman for the US Treasury told Reuters, putting it closer to a historic default.
The latest sovereign bond coupon payments have not received authorisation by the US Treasury to be processed by correspondent bank JPMorgan, the source said.
The payments were due on bonds due in 2022 and 2042.
The correspondent bank processes the coupon payments from Russia, sending them to the payment agent to distribute to overseas bondholders.
Previously, coupon payments on sovereign bonds had been processed, sources told Reuters.
A US Treasury spokeswoman also confirmed that certain payments were no longer being allowed.
“Today is the deadline for Russia to make another debt payment,” the spokeswoman said. “Beginning today, the US Treasury will not permit any dollar debt payments to be made from Russian government accounts at U.S. financial institutions. Russia must choose between draining remaining valuable dollar reserves or new revenue coming in, or default.”
''The country has a 30-day grace period to make the payment, the source said.
Russia, which has a total of 15 international bonds outstanding with a face value of around $40bn, has managed to avoid defaulting on its international debt so far despite unprecedented western sanctions.
If Russia fails to make any of its upcoming bond payments within their pre-defined timeframes, or pays in roubles where dollars, euros or another currency is specified, it will constitute a default''
the Guardian
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Is anyone not surprised by this? The Red Army in WW2 committed atrocities on their march to Berlin, so much so that German troops were fleeing to surrender to the Western allies rather than being captured by the Red Army, a blind eye was turned because they were on our side
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The bbc interviewed a woman that had to bury her own murdered son, she picked him up off the road, took his body home in a wheelbarrow and dug the grave herself. They occupied her house and the debris shows they spent most of the time drinking various and plentiful bottles of spirits . They are beyond description.
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Is anyone not surprised by this? The Red Army in WW2 committed atrocities on their march to Berlin, so much so that German troops were fleeing to surrender to the Western allies rather than being captured by the Red Army, a blind eye was turned because they were on our side
It's not exactly that a blind eye was turned, Churchill understood the threat from Russia but there wasn't the stomach for more war.
I think what we're witnessing now is worse than the atrocities of WWII. That came after a bitter conflict, hate and revenge was in the air. This is against a peaceful nation. What's more Russia's sister nation. Many of those Russian troops will have Ukrainian family. There will be Ukranians in that Russian army.
It's like a civil war but then I suppose civil wars are bitter.
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Me too RD.
I'm on holiday tonight. Reading about this bestiality. And wondering if humanity deserves a future.
Of course humanity deserves a future.
Fortunately depraved people are in the minority.
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Trouble is BST, the Yanks are full of this shite too. They have a helluva lot of folk who deny objective truth all day, every day. And they export it....
BobG
Not all of them Bob. It sounds biassed to say this but it really, truly is not. This denial of Objective Truth is a feature predominantly of the Right in modern politics. It just does not happen to any great extent on the centre and most of the Left (until you get to the very extreme).
We have to address this is a sensible way, rather than go tribal and refuse to accept criticism of the side they support. Politicians HAVE to be held to account for deniable of Objective Truth. Because you see where it leads if we don't do that.
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Continuing on from my comment above, I'm hopeful this may force putin into real negotiations.
this is a better bit
''US stops Russian dollar bond payments in bid to raise pressure on Moscow
The US government has ratcheted up the financial pressure on Russia, by halting its ability to make debt payments in dollars through US banks.
The move could bring Moscow a step closer to potentially defaulting on its obligations to international investors.
The US Treasury prevented Russia from paying holders of its sovereign debt more than $600m from reserves held at American banks yesterday, Reuters reports.
It would force Russia to choose between using dollar reserves held in its own country to service its debts, or spend new revenue, or miss bond payments and go into default.
This puts more pressure on Moscow, at a time when its economy is already weakening (today’s PMI report showed company growth contracting).
A US Treasury spokesperson said late on Monday that:
Beginning today, the US Treasury will not permit any dollar debt payments to be made from Russian government accounts at US financial institutions.
Russia must choose between draining remaining valuable dollar reserves or new revenue coming in, or default.”
The move came just as Russia was due to make a $552.4m payment on a maturing bond yesterday, and after the discovery of mass graves and bodies of bound civilians shot at close range in the town of Bucha, prompting calls for more sanctions.
An earlier debt payment had been allowed last month, despite the freeze on Russia’s foreign exchange reserves. But the US Treasury now seems to have changed its position, blocking Moscow from tapping its dollars held in US banks to service its debts''
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The bbc interviewed a woman that had to bury her own murdered son, she picked him up off the road, took his body home in a wheelbarrow and dug the grave herself. They occupied her house and the debris shows they spent most of the time drinking various and plentiful bottles of spirits . They are beyond description.
It just beggars belief the Russian UN rep can sit there and say those bodies in the street are faked and were put there after the Russians withdrew, when there's clear evidence from aerial photography from a date during the Russian occupation the bodies were already there!
I think we all hope the coming attack on the Donbass region is met with the Uktainians ability to pick off their armour and missiles with continued success and push the Russians back from whence they came.
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DBR.
If your entire political system is based on simply denying the existence of any awkward truths, you absolutely can sit in front of the UN and deny reality.
This is what I've been saying for years. The assault on Objective Truth, the normalisation of out and out lying, is the single biggest threat to humanity. Far bigger than climate change.
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Trouble is BST, the Yanks are full of this shite too. They have a helluva lot of folk who deny objective truth all day, every day. And they export it....
BobG
Not all of them Bob. It sounds biassed to say this but it really, truly is not. This denial of Objective Truth is a feature predominantly of the Right in modern politics. It just does not happen to any great extent on the centre and most of the Left (until you get to the very extreme).
We have to address this is a sensible way, rather than go tribal and refuse to accept criticism of the side they support. Politicians HAVE to be held to account for deniable of Objective Truth. Because you see where it leads if we don't do that.
Yes. Yes. Yes!
BobG
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Trouble is BST, the Yanks are full of this shite too. They have a helluva lot of folk who deny objective truth all day, every day. And they export it....
BobG
Not all of them Bob. It sounds biassed to say this but it really, truly is not. This denial of Objective Truth is a feature predominantly of the Right in modern politics. It just does not happen to any great extent on the centre and most of the Left (until you get to the very extreme).
We have to address this is a sensible way, rather than go tribal and refuse to accept criticism of the side they support. Politicians HAVE to be held to account for deniable of Objective Truth. Because yo
u see where it leads if we don't do that.
Yes. Yes. Yes!
BobG
"I'll have what he's having"
NB sorry I know this thread isn't the place
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When Billy met Bobby.
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Brilliant Turnbull. Puerile Bentley.
BobG
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Brilliant Turnbull. Puerile Bentley.
BobG
Seems to have pure riled you, Bobby.
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Brilliant Turnbull. Puerile Bentley.
BobG
Seems to have pure riled you, Bobby.
It's not a game.
Murder, rape, mutilation, torture. On an industrial scale.
Let's not go down the usual purile rabbit hole.
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Who said it was a game?
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Who said it was a game?
No one but we know how this usually starts. And I know you are itching to come back.
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I've never been away. Who's WE, by the way, the handful of Billy's yes yes yes men?
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Off we go.
f**k sake.
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Sorry to disappoint you, but I've no intention of conversing with the self-righteous brothers on this subject.
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Thank f**k for that.
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Absolutely no topic that he won't drag into this narcicssistic gutter.
Have some f**king self respect BB.
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These bas**rds will take a knife and cut your tongue out if you say the wrong thing.
And yet one of the most upsetting stories I've read is of a dog shelter, where 300 animals have been allowed to starve to death in their cages.
So many stories of absolute hell. War is just the release of all notions of decency and the abandonment of the rule of law. It's difficult to pinpoint war crimes because it's all a crime.
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Absolutely no topic that he won't drag into this narcicssistic gutter.
Have some f**king self respect BB.
You know the really sad thing about when you make a post like the one above is not so much your obsession with portraying yourself as the doyen of sanctimony, it is the handful of disciples who actually believe you.
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I hate it when the off season starts early
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''Ukraine war: Clacton ambulance aid convoy 'changes lives' of volunteers''
Amongst the horror, this is a great story ....
''Volunteers who fundraised to buy three ambulances and pack them with medical supplies for Ukraine said the trip from the UK "changed us all"''
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-essex-60984418
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War is shite and dehumanising, attrocities have always happened and always will. As for Russian WW2 attrocities, you have to put them alongside the attrocities committed by the Germans as they moved east. In the Ukraine, any attrocities by Russians also have to be put alongside those committed by the Ukrainians eg Odessa, Donbass. Western media bias - of course.
This is a war between the US and Russia, Ukraine is a pawn. You can judge who is responsible for what only if you are looking at the big picture. Nationalism of all kind is evil.
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Absobloodylutely BRR. That is why I have always been and will always be an internationalist with pretensions to humanism. It is why I was a Remainer. Almost no third party influence, or indeed control, is half as bad as war is. Why was the EU set up? To stop Europe fighting amongst its constituents. It's been hugely succesful too. That's why I loathe nationalists. That's why I support a federal Europe.
BobG
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War is shite and dehumanising, attrocities have always happened and always will. As for Russian WW2 attrocities, you have to put them alongside the attrocities committed by the Germans as they moved east. In the Ukraine, any attrocities by Russians also have to be put alongside those committed by the Ukrainians eg Odessa, Donbass. Western media bias - of course.
This is a war between the US and Russia, Ukraine is a pawn. You can judge who is responsible for what only if you are looking at the big picture. Nationalism of all kind is evil.
I fundamentally disagree with this take, which matches the nonsense from the far left at the start of the invasion that it was all NATOs fault.
The root cause of the problem is a Russia that is deeply anti-democratic and stuck in a 18th/19th century Great Power mindset where your greatness is not defined by the quality of life that you offer your people, but by demonstrating your ability to make neighbours do your bidding.
The crap that has been spouted about Russia being threatened by NATO expansion is just a cover for Putin lashing out. There is absolutely zero possibility of any western country invading Russia if for no other reason than that it would spark Armageddon. But there's plenty of reason why Russia neighbours wanted membership of NATO - precisely to protect themselves from the bestiality of a Russian bully that we have seen in Mariupol and Bucha.
There is one country to blame for what is happening in Ukraine. And one person bears the majority of that responsibility. Waffle about this being an American/Russian proxy war does nothing but deflect the blame from where it truly lies.
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Meanwhile, back on Objective Truth.
Right up until the invasion, Russia had a massive COVID wave. 200k new cases per day. 800 deaths per day. Both rising very rapidly just before the invasion.
And then...with no new measures to restrain the outbreak...a miracle!
New cases have fallen 90% in 6 weeks! Hallelujah!
Daily deaths have fallen every day since the invasion! Praise be to St Vlad, Protector of his People.
Some guy isn't he? Even viruses do his bidding.
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War is shite and dehumanising, attrocities have always happened and always will. As for Russian WW2 attrocities, you have to put them alongside the attrocities committed by the Germans as they moved east. In the Ukraine, any attrocities by Russians also have to be put alongside those committed by the Ukrainians eg Odessa, Donbass. Western media bias - of course.
This is a war between the US and Russia, Ukraine is a pawn. You can judge who is responsible for what only if you are looking at the big picture. Nationalism of all kind is evil.
I fundamentally disagree with this take, which matches the nonsense from the far left at the start of the invasion that it was all NATOs fault.
The root cause of the problem is a Russia that is deeply anti-democratic and stuck in a 18th/19th century Great Power mindset where your greatness is not defined by the quality of life that you offer your people, but by demonstrating your ability to make neighbours do your bidding.
The crap that has been spouted about Russia being threatened by NATO expansion is just a cover for Putin lashing out. There is absolutely zero possibility of any western country invading Russia if for no other reason than that it would spark Armageddon. But there's plenty of reason why Russia neighbours wanted membership of NATO - precisely to protect themselves from the bestiality of a Russian bully that we have seen in Mariupol and Bucha.
There is one country to blame for what is happening in Ukraine. And one person bears the majority of that responsibility. Waffle about this being an American/Russian proxy war does nothing but deflect the blame from where it truly lies.
Bob & BRR – as two of my friends on here respectfully I must say I agree with BST’s take – this is not a proxy war between the US and Russia. Russia in its expansionist aims is seeing how far it can go and has miscalculated. This is very much one man’s war.
There was a time when Russia participated closely in many NATO exercises, including at very high military levels. Putin put a stop to this in 2007 unilaterally withdrawing Russia from participating in the NATO Partnership for Peace (PfP) program.
Where I do agree is that I believe in the power of international organisations like NATO and EU to keep nations in close contact and understanding of each other and prevent wars. Like BoB, this for me was by orders of magnitude my main reason for being a remainer, way way above any financial or other factors.
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Lol. I wasn't specific enough was I?!
BobG
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Monsters and information warfare:
https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1511652838014861316
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I've been reading more of the Russian atrocities. How many years, do you think, will have to pass before folk will be willing to knowingly buy anything Russian again?
I've bought a bottle of vodka as a Christmas present for someone for a long time. That's changing. Tough luck if it actually comes from Warrington. Collateral damage and all that...
BobG
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I've been reading more of the Russian atrocities. How many years, do you think, will have to pass before folk will be willing to knowingly buy anything Russian again?
I've bought a bottle of vodka as a Christmas present for someone for a long time. That's changing. Tough luck if it actually comes from Warrington. Collateral damage and all that...
BobG
Must admit i'd never bought anything Russian, ever, friend of mine who knows i dabble in a bit of Horology gave me a tip off about a Russian Divers watch, it looked the part but lasted a bit longer than it took to size the bracelet which looked like it was made out of pig iron, talk about out of date! with this technology i'm surprised Yuri Gagarin made it out of his front door never mind space.
Suffice to say i'll not be bothering anything Russian any time soon.
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Bob & BRR – as two of my friends on here respectfully I must say I agree with BST’s take – this is not a proxy war between the US and Russia. Russia in its expansionist aims is seeing how far it can go and has miscalculated. This is very much one man’s war.
There was a time when Russia participated closely in many NATO exercises, including at very high military levels. Putin put a stop to this in 2007 unilaterally withdrawing Russia from participating in the NATO Partnership for Peace (PfP) program.
Where I do agree is that I believe in the power of international organisations like NATO and EU to keep nations in close contact and understanding of each other and prevent wars. Like BoB, this for me was by orders of magnitude my main reason for being a remainer, way way above any financial or other factors.
"On April 27, 2006, at a meeting of NATO foreign ministers, the representative of the NATO Secretary General, James Appathurai, stated that all members of the alliance support the speedy integration of Ukraine into NATO. Russia, for its part, expressed concern about this development." wikipedia
My understanding is that this was pushed forward by the US right at the end of this meeting. No surprise there was a reaction.
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War is shite and dehumanising, attrocities have always happened and always will. As for Russian WW2 attrocities, you have to put them alongside the attrocities committed by the Germans as they moved east. In the Ukraine, any attrocities by Russians also have to be put alongside those committed by the Ukrainians eg Odessa, Donbass. Western media bias - of course.
This is a war between the US and Russia, Ukraine is a pawn. You can judge who is responsible for what only if you are looking at the big picture. Nationalism of all kind is evil.
I fundamentally disagree with this take, which matches the nonsense from the far left at the start of the invasion that it was all NATOs fault.
The root cause of the problem is a Russia that is deeply anti-democratic and stuck in a 18th/19th century Great Power mindset where your greatness is not defined by the quality of life that you offer your people, but by demonstrating your ability to make neighbours do your bidding.
The crap that has been spouted about Russia being threatened by NATO expansion is just a cover for Putin lashing out. There is absolutely zero possibility of any western country invading Russia if for no other reason than that it would spark Armageddon. But there's plenty of reason why Russia neighbours wanted membership of NATO - precisely to protect themselves from the bestiality of a Russian bully that we have seen in Mariupol and Bucha.
There is one country to blame for what is happening in Ukraine. And one person bears the majority of that responsibility. Waffle about this being an American/Russian proxy war does nothing but deflect the blame from where it truly lies.
The action by Ukraine in eg Donbass and Odessa is to be ignored?
And in more current incidents, the brutality by Ukraine in Mariupol?
Plus the one illustration I gave in the post to Dutch above?
Far from defending or excusing Putin's actions, I likewise don't excuse the expansionist land grabbing by the US. Whilst Russia operates in a different way to the US, it is simply that, different. To couch it in terms of being outdated is missing the point of it simply being different. The US may be more current in your mind, but it's "free" market, "free"dom, means and propaganda is merely another way of exerting power, and expansionism.
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Bob & BRR – as two of my friends on here respectfully I must say I agree with BST’s take – this is not a proxy war between the US and Russia. Russia in its expansionist aims is seeing how far it can go and has miscalculated. This is very much one man’s war.
There was a time when Russia participated closely in many NATO exercises, including at very high military levels. Putin put a stop to this in 2007 unilaterally withdrawing Russia from participating in the NATO Partnership for Peace (PfP) program.
Where I do agree is that I believe in the power of international organisations like NATO and EU to keep nations in close contact and understanding of each other and prevent wars. Like BoB, this for me was by orders of magnitude my main reason for being a remainer, way way above any financial or other factors.
"On April 27, 2006, at a meeting of NATO foreign ministers, the representative of the NATO Secretary General, James Appathurai, stated that all members of the alliance support the speedy integration of Ukraine into NATO. Russia, for its part, expressed concern about this development." wikipedia
My understanding is that this was pushed forward by the US right at the end of this meeting. No surprise there was a reaction.
My understanding is that the Ukraine is a sovereign state and shouldn't need permission from putin to join or not to join any club it wishes.
Sovrenty eh.
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Bob & BRR – as two of my friends on here respectfully I must say I agree with BST’s take – this is not a proxy war between the US and Russia. Russia in its expansionist aims is seeing how far it can go and has miscalculated. This is very much one man’s war.
There was a time when Russia participated closely in many NATO exercises, including at very high military levels. Putin put a stop to this in 2007 unilaterally withdrawing Russia from participating in the NATO Partnership for Peace (PfP) program.
Where I do agree is that I believe in the power of international organisations like NATO and EU to keep nations in close contact and understanding of each other and prevent wars. Like BoB, this for me was by orders of magnitude my main reason for being a remainer, way way above any financial or other factors.
"On April 27, 2006, at a meeting of NATO foreign ministers, the representative of the NATO Secretary General, James Appathurai, stated that all members of the alliance support the speedy integration of Ukraine into NATO. Russia, for its part, expressed concern about this development." wikipedia
My understanding is that this was pushed forward by the US right at the end of this meeting. No surprise there was a reaction.
A good point well taken BRR, demonstrating Putin's motivation. However my point is that NATO had been and still was offering Russia a huge olive branch and to be closely involved, and Putin rejected this, mainly for the reason you give.
Indeed NATO and Russia have actually deployed together. In 1995 I was involved in the development of a computer support system for multi-national logistics. Logistics is a national responsibility and if left alone all nations would develop their own movement plans meaning everyone arriving at seaports and airports at the same time and resulting in gridlock. Our system successfully helped deconflict those national plans. Russia took part in this and rather theatrically, proudly and with some fanfare, instead of just handing us a floppy disk with their plans for deployment to Bosnia they also presented a senior NATO general with a hand drawn coloured military schematic diagram of their deployment plans on a map to celebrate our cooperation. I have a framed colour photocopy proudly hanging in my study.
All this co-operation, including many exercises, and clear peace offerings were thrown out of the window by one man.
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Putin has nothing to offer the Russian people but the myth of Great Russia, funded by oil and gas.
He's blown the latter as a long term strategy. The former depends on him showing he can bully neighbours to do his bidding. And his bluff had been well and truly called on that.
He could have brought Russia into the fold of western democracies. He chose not to do. That was his decision and his alone. Just like this invasion is his decision and his alone. Bringing up 16 year old comments doesn't change that.
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Meanwhile, this looks like clear evidence of war crimes by Ukrainian forces.
https://mobile.twitter.com/evanhill/status/1511760338743545858
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I find it difficult to put into words how much I want a good outcome for the Ukraine but with what is pretty much genocide going on and an upgrade in weaponry now being supplied it is getting beyond dangerous with a psycho like putin, if it ever wasn't. Stronger sanctions are the only way in my thinking and hold the russians back till real talks begin.
I feel bad about that too as obviously I'm not as affected as those in Europe.
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More evidence towards the war crimes carried out by Russian Forces....
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/germany-intercepted-calls-with-russians-discussing-bucha-killings-der-spiegel-2022-04-07/
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Taken from Sky news:
Intercepted audio reveals Russian troops' complaints about being outnumbered - and their orders to shoot civilians
A Russian commander allegedly ordered his soldiers to shoot and "take out" Ukrainian civilians near the besieged city of Mariupol, according to what Kyiv said was an intercepted radio conversation.
In a recording released by Ukraine's SBU security service reported by The Times, an unnamed soldier says: "There are two people coming out of the grove in civilian [clothes]."
He also says that a vehicle has been seen but it is unclear if it is civilian or military.
"Take them all f***ing out!" his superior shouts in response, adding that it was not important if there were non-combatants or not at the scene. "Off them all, f***!"
"Got it," the soldier says.
The Times reported that based on the soldiers' comments, the incident is believed to have taken place in a village near Mariupol.
In the leaked recording, another Russian soldier complained that he and his colleagues are vastly outnumbered and receiving no support from Moscow.
"Their [Ukrainian] group has 150,000 [soldiers]!" he says.
"And there's, f***, 3,000 of us, if that... They are on the left, on the right, encircling us, f***! There's so many of them and so few of us. We don't have any support, no aviation, not a f***ing thing."
Germany intercepts calls with Russians 'admitting to civilian killings' - report
Germany has intercepted radio messages of Russian military soldiers allegedly admitting they killed civilians in Bucha, according to Der Spiegel, a national news outlet.
Germany's intelligence agency presented the findings in parliament on Wednesday, without giving a source for the information, the report said.
The messages reportedly corresponded with known deaths.
In one message, a soldier discusses shooting someone off their bicycle.
A body was photographed lying next to a bicycle in the suburb near Kyiv.
A German government spokesperson decline to comment on the report, while Russia has denied committing war crimes in Bucha.
It comes after Ukraine released what it said was incepted audio of Russian soldiers being ordered to shoot civilians, and complaining that they were outnumbered - see 9.15am post.
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Bob & BRR – as two of my friends on here respectfully I must say I agree with BST’s take – this is not a proxy war between the US and Russia. Russia in its expansionist aims is seeing how far it can go and has miscalculated. This is very much one man’s war.
There was a time when Russia participated closely in many NATO exercises, including at very high military levels. Putin put a stop to this in 2007 unilaterally withdrawing Russia from participating in the NATO Partnership for Peace (PfP) program.
Where I do agree is that I believe in the power of international organisations like NATO and EU to keep nations in close contact and understanding of each other and prevent wars. Like BoB, this for me was by orders of magnitude my main reason for being a remainer, way way above any financial or other factors.
"On April 27, 2006, at a meeting of NATO foreign ministers, the representative of the NATO Secretary General, James Appathurai, stated that all members of the alliance support the speedy integration of Ukraine into NATO. Russia, for its part, expressed concern about this development." wikipedia
My understanding is that this was pushed forward by the US right at the end of this meeting. No surprise there was a reaction.
My understanding is that the Ukraine is a sovereign state and shouldn't need permission from putin to join or not to join any club it wishes.
Sovrenty eh.
Sovereign by name, heavily manipulated in reality - such is the myth from the "free" west. The interference from the west and Russia has been immense. It's the same for many other countries around the world. US interference will often come down the barrel of a gun paid for by them if not held by them, but it is economics where its gangsterism excells. And most of that economics is aimed at the gangsters in the countries it is interfering with.
Again, that's not excusing Russia, far from it, but the west and their servants have the same amount of blood on their hands.
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Taken from Sky news:
Intercepted audio reveals ...... see 9.15am post.
Yup, war is disgusting, always. Notable that you only found incidents of Russians being baddies, laced with reports of only Russian military failings.
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BRR
This is bothsidesism taken to a disgusting degree.
No state anywhere in the world is flattening Russian cities with unrestrained artillery, cruise missiles and aerial bombing.
When that starts, you might have a reason to say that othe countries have blood on their hands. Until then, whatever your intentions are, saying this is a fig leaf for Putin.
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Taken from Sky news:
Intercepted audio reveals ...... see 9.15am post.
Yup, war is disgusting, always. Notable that you only found incidents of Russians being baddies, laced with reports of only Russian military failings.
Well yes, given that only Russia has invaded an independent sovereign state and attacked it's civilians in the most barbaric way. Whilst feeding its own people propoganda and eliminating dissent against its atrocities.
You are fighting the wrong battle here comrade.
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I've been reading more of the Russian atrocities. How many years, do you think, will have to pass before folk will be willing to knowingly buy anything Russian again?
I've bought a bottle of vodka as a Christmas present for someone for a long time. That's changing. Tough luck if it actually comes from Warrington. Collateral damage and all that...
BobG
Just on buying Russian made products. I wonder if anyone realises certain Dove and Lynx deodorants are made in Russia (those which look like these www.amazon.co.uk/Dove-Men-Comfort-Anti-Perspirant-Deodorant/dp/B01F8IE64O/ref=pd_lpo_4?pd_rd_i=B01F8IE64O&th=1)
I noticed this after making a purchase around Christmas and stopped buying them immediately afterward.
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Taken from Sky news:
Intercepted audio reveals ...... see 9.15am post.
Yup, war is disgusting, always. Notable that you only found incidents of Russians being baddies, laced with reports of only Russian military failings.
Well yes, given that only Russia has invaded an independent sovereign state and attacked it's civilians in the most barbaric way. Whilst feeding its own people propoganda and eliminating dissent against its atrocities.
You are fighting the wrong battle here comrade.
I'll keep it simple - you missed the attacks on and slaughter of russians in Donbass, Odessa etc? ie the ones before Russia invaded?
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Those being the Donbass and Odessa that Russia invaded 8 years ago, before which no-one was being slaughtered?
I am truly astonished at you BRR.
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BRR
This is bothsidesism taken to a disgusting degree.
No state anywhere in the world is flattening Russian cities with unrestrained artillery, cruise missiles and aerial bombing.
When that starts, you might have a reason to say that othe countries have blood on their hands. Until then, whatever your intentions are, saying this is a fig leaf for Putin.
Dear Disgusted of Denaby, sorry you prefer to choose a truth that is so limited. This war has been going on for several years, much has happened. Ukraines have slaughtered many Ukraines and Russian Ukraines, attrocities have been on both sides for a long time. It is still the case, indeed you found one vid illustating this - there are others as well as evidence of actions on civilians, both sides using people as human shields, thus drawing fire onto civillian targets eg the maternity hospital.
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And the war started by Russia invading another country. In 2014. There wasn't a war going on before that.
I bemused by your absolute refusal to see the bleeding obvious here.
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Those being the Donbass and Odessa that Russia invaded 8 years ago, before which no-one was being slaughtered?
I am truly astonished at you BRR.
Russian invasion of Odessa 8 years ago?
You may argue Russia invaded Donbass, there seems to have been incitements from Russians though it does appear much of the initial protests against the Ukranian coup and restrictions on Russian culture were from locals/ The fighting following that against Ukrainian forces, including Azov, involved a lot of civilian slaughter from both sides.
Yes, Russia always wanted Donbass, but then the west wanted Ukraine. Both explicit, both having made moves that instigated the crisis.
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And the war started by Russia invading another country. In 2014. There wasn't a war going on before that.
I bemused by your absolute refusal to see the bleeding obvious here.
Now you're being silly. A war begins before the first shot is fired.
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BRR
I have frequently disagreed with you but generally respected your views.
Here though, I'm disgusted.
Putin has repeatedly committed the grossest war crimes in flattening civilian areas by the square mile in Grozny and in Aleppo. He's done the same here in Mariupol and elsewhere. Entirely as the aggressor.
You are one of a very small number of people who seem determined to go to any lengths to find reasons to, at least, contextualise this.
I understand that geopolitics is a complex issue. But some issues are very simple. Some wars don't start because complex issues make them inevitable. Some wars start because one side thinks it can get an advantage by smashing another side.
This is the clearest example of that sort of start of a war that I have seen.
Russia was under absolutely zero external threat. No country in its right mind would invade a state armed with 7000 nukes. Putin invaded Russia because he wanted it under his control. Looking to his power base not the rest of the world.
Support that if you must, but at least be honest with yourself. Don't kid yourself that Putin was forced into this. It was the choice of a thug bully, running a thuggish state and wanting to bully his neighbour to do his bidding. There is no more "sophisticated" analysis required. Unless you are wanting to excuse him.
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Contextualising isn't excusing. That suggestion is the kind of thing that makes excuses too. You are choosing your excuses within refusing to include the reality of a complex situation, although you accept that is the case too.
There were a great many attrocities conducted against the civilians of the Donbass by Ukrainian forces. There is a complex context even in that, including a Western Ukraine fear of losing territory - are you accepting that context?
As with most conflicts, even many decades later, we get a clearing picture, rarely the full "truth", though also one not devoid of interpretations, and in the case of Ukraine we have a battle between The West/USA and Russia, extreme politics.
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BRR.
There have been horrible events in the Donbas from BOTH sides.
But the violence was started by Russians, because their man in Kiev was drummed out for industrial scale corruption. Putin encouraged the uprising of ethnic Russians and supported it with arms and regular and special forces.
Russia is to blame for that violence starting. Russia now using that as an excuse for an all out war on the whole state of Ukraine is a f**king abomination.
Here's an analogy. Imagine the Troubles in Northern Ireland had been played over a bigger canvass. Imagine if Ireland had sent in special forces to the border areas to support to Nationalists. And imagine if Ireland had then said that because the Loyalists were violent, they were going to invade the whole of the UK and replace the Govt with one which would bark when Dublin told it to.
Imagine if they had flattened Liverpool. Imagine if they had occupied Bedford and Wycombe, rounded up civillians raped 3 year olds, cut off the ears and eyelids of young men, then tied their hands and shot them.
What would be your context there?
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Or ...........
''Elizabeth continued her father’s legacy in Ireland. A bid for independence by Hugh O’Neill, Earl of Tyrone, was ultimately defeated by the Queen’s army, with a harsh post-war settlement impeding future uprisings from the Catholic majority.
All the while, plantations were being established throughout the country. Lands occupied by Irish landowners were confiscated, especially in Munster and Ulster. They were distributed to colonists, commonly known as planters, who came in large numbers from England, Scotland and Wales. The final official plantations sprung up under Oliver Cromwell’s English Commonwealth during the 1650s, when thousands of Parliamentarian soldiers were settled in Ireland ...........
https://www.history.co.uk/history-of-the-northern-ireland-conflict
Oops sorry took the conversation down a bit of a side road there, but I'm always conscious of where it all started.
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Looks like the next phase of the Russians atrocities have started by targeting a railway station in the Donbass area with cruise missiles where hundreds of people were waiting to escape .
Shouldn't surprise us if they go for the hospitals next.
Putin must be desperate to provoke NATO countries into the theatre of war before he's well and truly wiped out by being outwitted, out fought and out of military resources to claim any sort of victory.
I was kinda hoping the Russians would withdraw, not come back and say "What military operation? No, wasn't us, didn't happen!" "Anyone who mentions the Special Military Operation could be jailed. It's all fake!".
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I see that Ursula von der Leyen is to offer Ukraine fast track membership of the EU.
Presumably if this is taken up then the EU states will help to rebuild the country, once Putin has had enough.
Though how Putin will react if this goes through is anyone's guess.
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War is shite and dehumanising, attrocities have always happened and always will. As for Russian WW2 attrocities, you have to put them alongside the attrocities committed by the Germans as they moved east. In the Ukraine, any attrocities by Russians also have to be put alongside those committed by the Ukrainians eg Odessa, Donbass. Western media bias - of course.
This is a war between the US and Russia, Ukraine is a pawn. You can judge who is responsible for what only if you are looking at the big picture. Nationalism of all kind is evil.
I thought it was the Russians who have taken it upon themselves to denazify Ukraine, replace the democratically elected 'drug addled'
nazi president with a puppet regime and cleanse the country by razing the towns and killing all the citizens
It now appears they want to erase the Ukrainian identity and absorb the nation into a wider Russia.
At least that's what Putin seems to be telling us.
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This is mad.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html?m=1
That's a website that is collating photographic evidence of destroyed, abandoned or captured Russian army vehicles.
They have clear evidence that 2750 have already been lost, including nearly 500 front line tanks.
I wonder how long Russia can go on with losses at this rate?
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Really big number in that report has only just hit me. The total number of captured and abandoned military vehicles is pushing 1300. Of which, getting on for 250 are tanks. So Russian squaddies have been surrendering or fleeing from military vehicles in huge numbers.
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How many more have they got they can call on?
A very imprecise question I know. But indications are all we're ever going to get in just about every field.
BobG
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Officially they have 12,000 tanks. But the analyses I've seen say that only 3,000 are operational and the other 9,000 are obsolete, rusting away in storage or being cannibalised for parts. So they've lost at least 12-15% of their front line tanks in 7 weeks. And are going to struggle economically to replace them. And of course they are going to lose a lot more in the upcoming Donbas battle . And they cannot bring every tank away from other areas where they must keep a presence. Some analysts are saying their armoured forces will be effectively depleted if they haven't won by the middle of next month.
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It must be unnerving to say the least sitting in a tank having seen scores of others with their turrets blown off.
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Satellite pictures of an 8 mile long column of Russian vehicles on the road near Kharkiv have emerged.
They can't be making the same mistake can they?
That last motorised queue was held up and steadily picked off by a few Ukraine special forces on quad bikes. Dodging cross country and picking off tanks at will with anti tank missle systems.
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A more detailed take on what the Russian tank losses mean.
https://mobile.twitter.com/partizan_oleg/status/1513402516628996097
TL:dr. The losses are devastating to Russia's ability to keep the mechanised attack going.
Which could be very good news if it means Russia has to call off the attack.
Or it could be very, very bad news if Putin's response is to go non-conventional.
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It looks like the Russians have used chemical weapons in Mariupol.
A grim new escalation.
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Got to hope to God that's not true, for the poor bas**rds in Mariupol and for all of our sakes.
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Oh Christ I hope that's wrong. The West can hardly ignore it if it's true. But where would that take us all...?
I'm due to fly back at the end of this week. Maybe I should stay? It's a nice country.
BobG
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fmd Axeholme, I thought you'd gone to Russia!
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''British #Ukraine Marine Aiden Aslin (AKA Cossack Gundî / Johnny) has had to surrender with his unit to Russian forces in Mariupol. They fought like hell for 48 days and have now run out of food and ammunition due to #Russia’s siege and destruction of the city.''
https://twitter.com/Jake_Hanrahan/status/1513821127000395779?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1513821127000395779%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2Flive%2F2022%2Fapr%2F12%2Frussia-ukraine-war-latest-mariupol-mayor-says-more-than-10000-civilians-killed-zelenskiy-taking-chemical-weapons-threat-seriously
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I fear we will never hear from or of these Ukranian forces again
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It looks like the Russians have used chemical weapons in Mariupol.
A grim new escalation.
That report was debunked on Sky News last night.
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It looks like the Russians have used chemical weapons in Mariupol.
A grim new escalation.
That report was debunked on Sky News last night.
Looks like the fog of war is descending all over this conflict. Was always going to be very difficult to get an honest appraisal of what is really going on over there but i hope its true and that this is a bogus report.
Trouble is now the west have to be seen to be taking closer order in this conflict, that being the case then all bets are off, who knows where this will end for us all.
The fighting in Mariupol looks like it may be coming to a head, i just hope the reports coming out of there are also not all correct,every report seems to show even more civilians killed, but i fear it will be worse than Bondarenka and Bouka.
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''Abramovich hit by multibillion-pound crackdown on assets in Jersey and France''
''However, the UK has not seized any of Abramovich’s UK properties, which include a £120m mansion on Kensington Palace Gardens just behind the royal palace. His family have amassed a UK property collection worth more than £250m, numbering about 70 homes, buildings and pieces of land. The UK is forcing him to sell Chelsea FC, which he bought in 2003 for about £140m''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/13/jersey-freezes-54bn-of-assets-linked-to-roman-abramovich
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Two bits of good news tonight:
The Moskva has been severely damaged. Differing accounts of why but the thing is reported to be badly damaged and abandoned,
and
Justice Minister Lord Wolfson has resigned from the Government over both the behaviour of the PM and the governments' official responses to Partygate over the last several months. That's code for resigning because the government has consistently lied to every single one of us - including BB.
At last, a member of the government one can respect.
BobG
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500+ personnel on board. Could be horrific losses.
Moscow says the damage was caused by a fire and the ship was safely evacuated. I doubt we'll ever know.
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The UK has just started supplying anti shipping missles.
It might just be a coincidence.
Edit. Ukraine is indeed claiming it hit it with two missles.
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Saw this earlier and thought I would share...
(http://)
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Two bits of good news tonight:
The Moskva has been severely damaged. Differing accounts of why but the thing is reported to be badly damaged and abandoned,
and
BobG
There is somewhere in Ukraine a farmer getting his tractor ready to salvage that ship
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The UK has just started supplying anti shipping missles.
It might just be a coincidence.
Edit. Ukraine is indeed claiming it hit it with two missles.
Report on the radio this morning said it was hit with missiles from Ukraine's own developed system - Neptune
described here
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2022/04/13/the-ukrainians-claim-they-damaged-a-russian-cruiser-be-skeptical/?sh=7ccb73b53971
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Saw this earlier and thought I would share...
(http://)
He also had a short stay in the ICU but then had loads of parties.
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Saw this earlier and thought I would share...
(http://)
He also had a short stay in the ICU but then had loads of parties.
Good point Nudga, it's a wonder he found time to fit ICU in!
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He's so brave, it's like nothing scares him, not covid, not war torn Kiev.
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Moskva bottom of the ogin.
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Biggest military ship to be sunk by enemy action since WWII. Bigger than the Belgrano.
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Hearing the Moskva hasn’t been sunk, it’s been promoted to submarine
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That would be true to form with their propaganda glosser.
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Reports now that the Moskva was carrying nuclear warheads when it went down.
I guess the Black Sea isn't too deep, god knows if it's salvageable.
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''Russia 'hits Kyiv missile plant' after losing iconic warship''
This confirms it then
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What a strange response to an accidental fire on the Moskva!
But this is what happens when you deny the existence of Objective Truth to your own people. There will be millions of Russians absolutely certain that the Moskva was just an unfortunate accident.
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Commentors on Russian TV claiming WWIII is breaking out. Russia is coming up against NATO and actually ordinary Ukrainians are welcoming Russian forces.
A worrying development this. It suggests Putin is looking for excuses. Directly blaming NATO like this is very concerning.
Anchor Olesya Loseva, host of Vremya Pokazhet, told viewers that the West was now supplying "zillions of weapons” to Ukraine.
She claimed Ukraine was doing the West’s bidding by carrying out "yet more provocations, bloody, horrible, completely unthinkable.”
These will “force people to shudder once again and say that Russia Is a country which is unworthy of even being on the world map and that all Russians should simply be wiped off the face of the earth”.
... An existential threat to Russia? Very dangerous territory we are entering here.
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There are some gobshites on Russian TV political programmes. It's like having Farage on QT every f**king week. Good box office but not necessarily Govt policy.
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Olga Skabeyeva made the WWIII remark.
Very much a spokesperson for the chanel and the regime. Host of the 60 minutes political talk show. A bit like a Russian Fiona Bruce then.
I suppose it could be more sabre rattling but it's also informing the Russian population.
I don't know enough about Russian TV but isn't that likely to be sanctioned directly by the Kremlin?
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All this is simply because Putin fears his own people will oust him.
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It's what Zelensky said at the begining of the conflict when he was asking NATO for help - it doesn't matter if you wont give practical support for fear of starting WWIII - if Putin wants WIII there will be WWIII.
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Just watched Dinosaurs the final day, is that what Putin plans for Humans, the final day? Start burrowing now and stock up on10 years worth of food
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It's what Zelensky said at the begining of the conflict when he was asking NATO for help - it doesn't matter if you wont give practical support for fear of starting WWIII - if Putin wants WIII there will be WWIII.
Why would Putin want WW3? What could he gain from it?
No doubt he's mad, but there's a big difference between madness and stupidity, and he's not stupid enough to think he can win a nuclear war. Nobody can, and he's well aware of that.
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I'm certain he doesn't WANT Armageddon. The danger is we might all stumble into it.
Putin would not dive straight into an all out nuclear exchange. If for no other reason than that I don't think his military top brass would carry that order out. I think they'd off him first if he commanded that.
But the scenario that gives me nightmares is what happens if he gets another kicking in the Donbas and he responds to that by wiping out a section of the Ukranian defences with a small battlefield nuke?
I can we'll see that being a realistic scenario. He shows the world he's truly a tough, dangerous f**ker. And a "small" nuclear attack is a much harder thing for the top brass to rebel against. It's been in the Russian military strategy to play that as a "look how f**king dangerous we are - do you REALLY want to escalte this Washington?" card in any battle against NATO. Why would a General go against an order to do that against Ukraine.
But if battlefield nukes get used, God alone knows what the endgame is. Most war gaming of that scenario ends up with both sides stumbling into all out nuclear war.
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I think some on here do the general public of Russia a disservice, they are not a backward looking 19th century communist peasant populace any more. They may have as a leader and extreme case of a soviet throwback with all the illusions of that ilk but even he is not that stupid to believe he can use tactical nukes and get away with it.
The general population have the means to see, hear and read on multiple platforms what is actually going on in the world today, they may be getting told one thing from the regime but i'm sure plenty know the score that the "special operation" is anything other than a Russian humiliation on the world stage.
You can tell the people one thing but when many families see young Boris and Vassily coming home in body bags they will know exactly what the score is.
The worm will eventually turn.
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I think some on here do the general public of Russia a disservice, they are not a backward looking 19th century communist peasant populace any more. They may have as a leader and extreme case of a soviet throwback with all the illusions of that ilk but even he is not that stupid to believe he can use tactical nukes and get away with it.
The general population have the means to see, hear and read on multiple platforms what is actually going on in the world today, they may be getting told one thing from the regime but i'm sure plenty know the score that the "special operation" is anything other than a Russian humiliation on the world stage.
You can tell the people one thing but when many families see young Boris and Vassily coming home in body bags they will know exactly what the score is.
The worm will eventually turn.
Forget the nukes bit and you could be talking about a democracy much closer to home and johnson was a known liar when voted in.
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I'm not sure that's right Danum.
In the large western cities of Russia, yes, younger people have had access to wider media. Some have been fleeing to Finland or south into Georgia or Turkey, wherever. Much to Putins displeasure. He had a good rant about these unpatriotic people a few weeks back.
Russia though is a huge, huge nation. Out in the country, out in the east, in the small cities and towns, they don't have the modern infrastructure. What they do have is TV but the Kremlin completely controls the narrative. The people have a historic mistrust of the west and NATO. Standing up to the west has always played well for Putin in the vast majority of the country. They want to believe in a powerful Russia and Putins stories play into that. The annexation of Crimea was really popular.
Putin thought he was going to pull off the same trick again. None of what is unfolding was ever expected but he can't back down now. A strongman, who isn't seen to be a strongman won't last long, which is why all this is becoming so dangerous.
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Danum
Putin has presided over the obliteration of major cities in three countries (including his own).
He has obliterated independent media.
He has obliterated an independent judicial system.
He has authorised the systematic terrorisation of opposition political parties.
He has authorised the systematic assassination of critical politicians and journalists.
Most of that was well established in 2018. He won 77.5% of the vote in the presidential elections.
I think you overestimate the desire of the Russian public to rein him in from doing anything he damn well wants.
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A lesson from history. Did the German people do anything effective to stop Hitler plunging them into a suicidal war, and the genocide of entire peoples?
Why should the use of weapons of mass destruction against an enemy that has been systematically portrayed as Nazis an existential enemies of Russia be stopped by the Russian people?
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The public are being fed a diet of bile and lies, fancy that eh.
''On Russian television, hosts and pundits came perilously close to admitting that the loss of the cruiser was the result of an enemy attack as opposed to the result of an accident onboard. They also talked in vehement terms about wiping out “Ukraine-ness”.
“Just the fact there is an attack on our territory is casus belli, an absolute cause for war. A real war, no fooling around,” said the Russian film director and former MP Vladimir Bortko, on the popular 60 Minutes talkshow on state-run television. The special operation, as he was reminded Russia’s war is called, “ended tonight”.
When asked if he was speaking about the Moskva, he said: “The Moscow cruiser is absolutely a cause for war. One hundred per cent. It’s our flagship. There’s nothing to think about. We need an answer.”''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/15/ukraine-braces-revenge-attacks-russia-moskva-sinking
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When asked if he was speaking about the Moskva, he said: “The Moscow cruiser is absolutely a cause for war. One hundred per cent. It’s our flagship. There’s nothing to think about. We need an answer.”''
If he said that then surely he is going against the official narrative that the ship sank due to an explosion onboard.
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I spent time working in Russia in 2010. Many people that I met came across as extremely nationalist, paranoid about the west and aggressively defensive against any perceived criticism of their nation. They are fed a constant diet of pro Kremlin/anti west propaganda. Outside the cities they blame their poverty on the downfall of the USSR and see Putin as the man to return them to past glories. A very dangerous nation in my view.
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Yeah Stockbridge
One of the interesting snippets from reports in the papers, is how the Russian squaddies have been surprised at the wealth they've found in Ukraine. Looting and thieving stuff out of houses to take back home.
In one radio intercept, a Russian said there is no wonder they didn't want us here.
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Vice Admiral in charge of the Black Sea Fleet has been arrested by the FSB.
Presumably because a fire broke out on the Moskva in a storm.
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Vice Admiral in charge of the Black Sea Fleet has been arrested by the FSB.
Presumably because a fire broke out on the Moskva in a storm.
Imagine being arrested because your soviet era naval ships are shit
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I'm currently reading Niall Ferguson's The War of the World.
He recounts the scene at Stalin's dacha when the news came through that Hitler had launched Barbarossa and invaded Russia.
Stalin was sat catatonic when two high ranking politicians came in. He said "Have you come for me?" thinking they had come to depose him for his catastrophic policy mistakes. But they hadn't. They'd come to beg him to return to the Kremlin to take control.
He did. And he purged many military leaders as scapegoats.
Ferguson comments on how the whole post-War order might have been different if they had the balls to put Stalin in a shallow grave in the forest that day. I wonder if there are people with the spine to do that to Putin now?
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Putin, banging on about anti-russia hysteria in Britain, no wonder? one minute his money and influence is welcomed by the bucket load into the tory party and london is the laundrette of Europe, no inquiries into possible interference, flagged by the security committee, his henchmen given the keys to the city and 'lord of siberia ffs, and the next we supply arms and training to their enemy, not because johnson wants to save the Ukraine population from the jaws of death (look at the pathetic response to their refugees) to save himself from an imminent dcm.
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That's stretching it Syd,
The UK was supplying weapons and training to Ukraine since long before Putin started his military excercises on the border.
And the west has been hoping Russia would open up through trade since before Putin came to power.
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Why let facts get in the way of an opportunity to have a moan.
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Why let facts get in the way of an opportunity to have a moan.
you would know hound you moan about other members day in and out aye
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Why let facts get in the way of an opportunity to have a moan.
you would know hound you moan about other members day in and out aye
Haha.
I just read your moan at NR on the Rwanda thread in which your tell him how wrong he is.
Hypocrite.
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Jan 18/2022
''Britain has begun supplying Ukraine with new light anti-tank weapons in response to “the increasingly threatening behaviour from Russia”, the defence secretary, Ben Wallace, has announced.
The ratcheting up of military support comes as the Kremlin continues to increase its troop deployment by moving forces into Belarus, which borders Ukraine to the north, and is considered the most likely route for any invasion.
“We have taken the decision to supply Ukraine with light anti-armour defensive weapons systems,” Wallace told the Commons on Monday, adding that “a small number” of British troops would provide training to help Kyiv’s forces in using them.
Partygate blew up Nov 2021
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Why let facts get in the way of an opportunity to have a moan.
you would know hound you moan about other members day in and out aye
Haha.
I just read your moan at NR on the Rwanda thread in which your tell him how wrong he is.
Hypocrite.
Showing someone that they are factually wrong is a bit different from your whining, wouldn't you agree hound?
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Jan 18/2022
''Britain has begun supplying Ukraine with new light anti-tank weapons in response to “the increasingly threatening behaviour from Russia”, the defence secretary, Ben Wallace, has announced.
The ratcheting up of military support comes as the Kremlin continues to increase its troop deployment by moving forces into Belarus, which borders Ukraine to the north, and is considered the most likely route for any invasion.
“We have taken the decision to supply Ukraine with light anti-armour defensive weapons systems,” Wallace told the Commons on Monday, adding that “a small number” of British troops would provide training to help Kyiv’s forces in using them.
Partygate blew up Nov 2021
Since Ukrainian independence in 1991, security cooperation with the UK and other Western allies has been a key feature of bilateral and multilateral relations. With aspirations to join both the EU and NATO, initial military assistance to Ukraine was largely focused on defence reform, defence planning and capacity building.
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When did johnson become interested is the key question RD, johnson blamed the EU for russia annexing the Crimea ffs.
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Why let facts get in the way of an opportunity to have a moan.
you would know hound you moan about other members day in and out aye
Haha.
I just read your moan at NR on the Rwanda thread in which your tell him how wrong he is.
Hypocrite.
Showing someone that they are factually wrong is a bit different from your whining, wouldn't you agree hound?
There are one or two posters that I disagree with on a regular basis but generally I find that I get on with most.
I reckon that will be true of the majority on here.
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:)
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When did johnson become interested is the key question RD, johnson blamed the EU for russia annexing the Crimea ffs.
Russia began denying it was going to invade Ukraine around Nov 21. Concerns had been growing for sometime as the military build up on the border continued.
It took the UK until Jan to be sufficiently concerned that an invasion was imminent to start supplying defensive weaponry.
I don't see any political motives, other than a response to the Russian threat.
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I'm surprised we are not seeing johnson strutting the stage with his mouth around a cigar, the only person johnson is concerned about is himself.
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When did johnson become interested is the key question RD, johnson blamed the EU for russia annexing the Crimea ffs.
Sydney on that the government played it right and were fully supported by the other parties, there's no real dispute even politically on that.
They've done plenty of other things badly you don't need to criticise the bits they've done right.
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When did johnson become interested is the key question RD, johnson blamed the EU for russia annexing the Crimea ffs.
Sydney on that the government played it right and were fully supported by the other parties, there's no real dispute even politically on that.
They've done plenty of other things badly you don't need to criticise the bits they've done right.
Not criticising the government pud .... johnson, this has fallen into his lap, for a man that has trashed the law, lied to parliament and everyone in the country, put the GFA agreement on the line and all for what? he doesn't believe in anything but himself. As you know with brexit he was in two minds about that too.
I'd be more convinced about his motives if there were more Ukraine people ensconced in willing hosts homes and he's moved faster and wider with the sanctions.
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I'm surprised we are not seeing johnson strutting the stage with his mouth around a cigar, the only person johnson is concerned about is himself.
I'm sure Johnson is quite happy to try and play the wartime leader role. Though, he hasn't made any heavy weight historic speeches.
But I do think it's a coincidence, that it happened when it did
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RD, I guess my main gripe about johnson was that he gave every impression to putin that he was on a winner, he welcomed the oligarchs and their money into the capital and his party, did not investigate a very strong suspicion of interference in UK politics and votes and for all intents and purposes why would putin have thought anything different.
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Russian money has been flowing into the capital for a longtime. At least since the days of Tony Blair.
And I do think that was partly because the hope was Russia would begin to change as it opened up to the west.
That was the kind of talk Putin first came out with. Tony Blair is still convinced today that Putin was a reformer back then.
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Then Crimea should have changed all that, the adverse findings from the security committee should have changed all that, No?
''UK report on Russian interference: key points explained''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/21/just-what-does-the-uk-russia-report-say-key-points-explainedAnd much of this is back on successive tory governments, and what was johnson's answer to Crimea, blame the EU??????
''Johnson peerage for Lebedev crowns mutually beneficial friendship
Party-loving media mogul and prime minister maintain close social and political ties''
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2020/jul/31/johnson-peerage-for-lebedev-crowns-mutually-beneficial-friendship
all the dots are there in plain sight
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There we can agree. The west handled Crimea badly and in doing so, gave Putin the green light for what is happening today.
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There we can agree. The west handled Crimea badly and in doing so, gave Putin the green light for what is happening today.
True RD but johnson played a particularly strong hand.
I'll bet the champagne corks were flying around the Kremlin when he got brexit done
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Johnson is a chancer with no long-term strategy for anything other than his self-promotion - and no day-to day stragegy for anything other than his self-preservation.
If this means he is sending far more aid and armaments to Ukraine than most of Europe - good.
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Johnson is a chancer with no long-term strategy for anything other than his self-promotion - and no day-to day stragegy for anything other than his self-preservation.
If this means he is sending far more aid and armaments to Ukraine than most of Europe - good.
Wilts.
Agreed and agreed.
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Spotted this locally yesterday.A52 just North of Butterwick.
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Spotted this locally yesterday.A52 just North of Butterwick.
It looks like they got shot up pretty bad.
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Interesting twitter thread here.
Essentially, there are thought to be up to 25 Russian Battle Groups in Izyum, all dependant on one road to supply them. The Ukrainian's have been shelling the road and are now counteracting west and south from Kharkiv to cut this road connection and isolate the BTG's:
https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1515931478147883016
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The Russians invaded at the wrong time of year.
The ground in spring and autumn is a notorious bog. The Russians have been forced to stay on the roads, often in long columns, where there vehicles have been very open to ambush.
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So Putin's War takes on a new face with the renewed Donbas offensive.
Other than punishing the Ukrainians (and hey, maybe that IS the only objective) I don't see what 75 BTGs manned with a lot of demoralised young conscripts is going to achieve on a 300 mile front. Feels like another Russian disaster in the making, albeit with a lot of Ukranian deaths too.
Is Putin now just lashing out without a strategy?
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Without answering your question BST, it seems to me that Putin wants Mariupol and significant progress in Donbas by 9 May - short term gain for political purposes. This is never a good military strategy - as has been shown to the North-West of Kiev holding territory is more difficult than taking it.
What worries me is that he may decide the best way of 'clearing out' Mariupol, which is currently keeping about 10K Russian personnel committed and unavailable to support Donbas operations, is to go chemical in an industrial area with the deniability of saying the result is from toxic chemicals already there, not chemical weapons. Then what does the West do?
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That's been giving me nightmares to Dutch. He's simply not going to get a clear and clean conventional victory in the Donbas. I wonder if he even realises that. If he doesn't, God alone knows how he responds when the reality dawns.
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Weather can change quite quickly of course but the sea looks quite calm in the vid and pics of the Moskva, not the rough sea reported.
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Is Corbyn right....
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/jeremy-corbyn-nato-labour-ukraine-keir-starmer-b995271.html
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What do you reckon MM?
Is the Ukraine right for wanting to join the EU?
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Is Corbyn right....
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/jeremy-corbyn-nato-labour-ukraine-keir-starmer-b995271.html
No. His analysis on NATO is childishly simplistic. He's an embarrassment.
What does he think Putin would do next if the Baltic States weren't in NATO.
He claims to be a great anti-Imperialist, yet there's barely a word of criticism from him for naked imperialist aggression by Putin.
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If what is being reported is true his comments were a bit more nuanced but still idealistic by saying that alliances 'should be disbanded' but maybe the next question should have been under what circumstances. He supports the Ukraine's right to defend itself, he doesn't blame NATO for the war (and presumably not the EU either) He admires Zelenskiy.
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He admires Zelensky...
...but we shouldn't send him armaments.
Corbyn is either a naive fool or is knowingly a Russian asset. I've never understood which, but either way it's a relief he is no longer a Labour MP.
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He seems to strengthen Starmers position every time he speaks
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What do you reckon MM? - No - he's a simplistic fool
Is the Ukraine right for wanting to join the EU? - I think so - but perhaps the EU doesn't want the Ukraine
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it was just a hand grenade into the thread then?
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He admires Zelensky...
...but we shouldn't send him armaments.
Corbyn is either a naive fool or is knowingly a Russian asset. I've never understood which, but either way it's a relief he is no longer a Labour MP.
Corbyn hasn't said he admire Zelensky. He said "he speaks well, I admire that.
It's not the same thing.
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He admires Zelensky...
...but we shouldn't send him armaments.
Corbyn is either a naive fool or is knowingly a Russian asset. I've never understood which, but either way it's a relief he is no longer a Labour MP.
Corbyn hasn't said he admire Zelensky. He said "he speaks well, I admire that.
It's not the same thing.
true, he admires the way he speaks
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it was just a hand grenade into the thread then?
Hardly a hand grenade Sydney (probably not a good analogy in a thread on a war BTW) ........ it was just another's point of view.
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The latest video on Putin today, he’s looking a very ill man!
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it was just a hand grenade into the thread then?
Hardly a hand grenade Sydney (probably not a good analogy in a thread on a war BTW) ........ it was just another's point of view.
Yes, totally correct what the Daily Mail reported about him that he was an apolgist for Putin for what he was saying about the war in Ukraine
- oh hang on a minute
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3581363/Boris-Johnson-blasted-apologist-President-Putin-No-10-Jack-Straw-slam-claim-EU-blame-starting-war-Ukraine.html
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The latest video on Putin today, he’s looking a very ill man!
He definitely needs medical attention!
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Fascinating - due to Russian tank losses (inc Ukrainian farmers) plus supplies from the EU (ex-soviet kit so not US or UK) Ukraine now has more tanks in theatre than Russia (the worlds second largest army)
https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1517171266997960705
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it was just a hand grenade into the thread then?
Hardly a hand grenade Sydney (probably not a good analogy in a thread on a war BTW) ........ it was just another's point of view.
Well said MM.
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I like the story about Ukraine now being supplied with 1000s of spare parts giving them another 20 flightworthy fighter jets.
Just a technicality all these spare parts of fuselage, wings, engines and missiles were already joined up!! Ha ha.
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it was just a hand grenade into the thread then?
Hardly a hand grenade Sydney (probably not a good analogy in a thread on a war BTW) ........ it was just another's point of view.
was it, where is your debate, you were intending to debate something about why you posted it?
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it was just a hand grenade into the thread then?
Hardly a hand grenade Sydney (probably not a good analogy in a thread on a war BTW) ........ it was just another's point of view.
Well said MM.
didn't get the Dot Cotton gig then"
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it was just a hand grenade into the thread then?
Hardly a hand grenade Sydney (probably not a good analogy in a thread on a war BTW) ........ it was just another's point of view.
Well said MM.
didn't get the Dot Cotton gig then"
…..and that is your imaginative contribution to the “debate”.
:byebye:
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Is Corbyn right....
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/jeremy-corbyn-nato-labour-ukraine-keir-starmer-b995271.html
No. His analysis on NATO is childishly simplistic. He's an embarrassment.
What does he think Putin would do next if the Baltic States weren't in NATO.
He claims to be a great anti-Imperialist, yet there's barely a word of criticism from him for naked imperialist aggression by Putin.
Have been meaning to reply to this for a while but was busy
Of course I strongly disagree with Corbyn’s analysis.
First of all the NATO Alliance was set up to prevent war. Leaving alone the idea that a divided Western Europe without Alliances would have been a very much more attractive target for Warsaw Pact/USSR forces prior to 1989, and so this fundamental reason for NATO being set up has been successful in avoiding that military conflict, I would also suggest other possible wars have been prevented, most notably between Greece and Turkey had they not both been NATO members, and not impossible skirmishes between the UK and Spain over Gibraltar. These among many other possibilities.
NATO does not ‘build up forces’. The only military capability owned and operated by NATO is a fleet of E3A Airborne Early Warning aircraft. All other forces are owned by the NATO Nations. It is the Nations that make their own individual decisions on acquisition of new military forces and capabilities.
It can be said in some sense that NATO actually helps avoid too much build up of some forces. Via the NATO Defence Planning Process, NATO analysts assess the future threats say 10 years out, and which of these might happen simultaneously, and what pool of military forces might be desirable to counter these threats. Then NATO and the NATO Nations enter a negotiation process whereby Nations are encouraged to take a NATO wide view and spend their national defence budgets in line with the overall picture. This may mean for example that instead of every single nation acquiring all possible capabilities that one nation acquires e.g. fewer tanks and artillery pieces and acquires a chemical decontamination capability or a mobile hospital or engineering equipment, or acquires fewer attack aircraft and more Reconnaissance or Transport Aircraft, or acquires fewer Frigates and more Search and Rescue Helicopters or Minesweepers. This can potentially avoid too much of a build-up of attacking capabilities.
Of course many nations additionally acquire military capabilities for requirements outside of the NATO context, for example the US has huge military capabilities in the Pacific which not are in any way part of NATO agreed defence plannning.
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Thanks Dutch, always nice to have a learned post on such matters.
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I see the uk embassy is reopen Kyiv next week.
I was wondering, if Russia dropped a cruise missile on this building, would it be classed as an attack on a NATO country?
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I see the uk embassy is reopen Kyiv next week.
I was wondering, if Russia dropped a cruise missile on this building, would it be classed as an attack on a NATO country?
America accidentally bombed the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade by mistake during the action against Serbia. The Chinese were furious but the was no suggestion is was a casus belli. I'm sure that, even if Russia deliberately targeted a NATO embassy, ever step possible would be taken to not interpret that as a casus belli.
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Propaganda or news not being allowed by the BBC and other pro western media? There's lots of similar reports and interviews including very recent ones.
https://rumble.com/vzakjb-april-1-2022.html
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Corbyn today in the Morning Star.
"There must be an immediate ceasefire in Ukraine, followed by a Russian troop withdrawal and agreement between Russia and Ukraine on future security arrangements."
Lovely. Except, what do you do when Putin says "And who the f**k are you exactly?" and continues reducing cities to rubble?
You criticise countries supporting Ukraine preventing itself from being overwhelmed.
"But instead of urging peace, most European nations have taken the opportunity to ramp up arms supplies, feed the war machine and boost the share prices of weapons manufacturers."
And this. Good God he is truly as thick as mince.
"There are 1,800 nuclear warheads in the world primed and ready for use. One “tactical” weapon would kill hundred of thousands, a nuclear bomb would kill millions. It cannot be contained or its effects limited."
I really don't want to minimise the horror of nuclear weapons, but Corbyn doesn't appear to understand what a tactical nuclear weapon is.
The thought that hexwas foisted upon us as Labour leader is horrific. The memory of that is like a receding nightmare. Let him spend the rest of his days writing this fourth form nonsense for people who are already convinced.
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/now-let-us-talk-peace
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Well putin for one certainly didn't want him in power
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Just a few irrelevant words ...... before our "experts" continue the thread
I have never played the boardgame "Risk" and no nothing at all about what it is all about - but Mrs Coleman apparently played it in the 1970's and she has always reminded me in the boardgame ... she was always told to "get/hold" or whatever of Ukraine for its "resources" full stop.
finally after about 50 years I today decided to google " the board game risk ukraine" to see what it is all about and maybe learn something - alas not
and found amongst other things this
https://slate.com/business/2014/02/ukraine-in-risk-it-really-is-weak.html
ironically some US bloke has a 30 year old "AMERICAN VERSION" risk board game where Ukraine seems to have taken over Russia (ha ha !!)
https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinteresting/comments/u4h6qc/my_30_year_old_risk_game_at_home_has_ukraine/
that's what i would call a result
now back over to the 'xsperts
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From your link .............
''My (30 year old) Risk game at home has Ukraine instead of Russia
OCRemoved - Rule 6
Sorry, this post has been removed by the moderators of r/mildlyinteresting.
Moderators remove posts from feeds for a variety of reasons, including keeping communities safe, civil, and true to their purpose.''
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It's funny old world, corbyn reminds me of my first year junior school self thinking that as the world grew and we all gained knowledge all the problems would be solved in the not too distant future.
corbyn is barred from office for honest and naive and johnson should have been barred for being a lying f**k and a spiv.
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Hindsight eh Syd.
When he was Labour leader you backed him to the hilt.
As did some others on here.
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Hindsight eh Syd.
When he was Labour leader you backed him to the hilt.
As did some others on here.
not wanting another lazy corrupt racist tory government lazy is a little different though aye Dot?
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Hindsight eh Syd.
When he was Labour leader you backed him to the hilt.
As did some others on here.
not wanting another lazy corrupt racist tory government lazy is a little different though aye Dot?
Does that comment even make sense?
Fourth can maybe?
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.
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Corbyn today in the Morning Star.
"There must be an immediate ceasefire in Ukraine, followed by a Russian troop withdrawal and agreement between Russia and Ukraine on future security arrangements."
Reading between the lines and given that he's been cool about Zelensky and the idea of Ukraine defending itself... I think he's basically suggesting Ukraine surrenders and Russia withdraws. Future security arrangements would obviously be dictated by Putin.
And for Corbyn that would be just fine because in his world Putin's Russia is apparently still preferable to the US.
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Hindsight eh Syd.
When he was Labour leader you backed him to the hilt.
As did some others on here.
not wanting another lazy corrupt racist tory government lazy is a little different though aye Dot?
And to think if Comrade Corbyn had won we would have got anti-Semite government that would have let Ukraine die under the Russian boot. A government that would have not have given weapons to Ukraine to defend their land with a government that would have made the current German government look generous in their support for Ukraine.
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Corbyn today in the Morning Star.
"There must be an immediate ceasefire in Ukraine, followed by a Russian troop withdrawal and agreement between Russia and Ukraine on future security arrangements."
Reading between the lines and given that he's been cool about Zelensky and the idea of Ukraine defending itself... I think he's basically suggesting Ukraine surrenders and Russia withdraws. Future security arrangements would obviously be dictated by Putin.
And for Corbyn that would be just fine because in his world Putin's Russia is apparently still preferable to the US.
And reading the actual lines:
There must be an immediate ceasefire in Ukraine, followed by a Russian troop withdrawal and agreement between Russia and Ukraine on future security arrangements.
All wars end in a negotiation of some sort, everyone knows that, so why not now?
Everyone knows this is what will happen at some point. There is no reason to delay it for bombing and killing, more refugees, more dead and more grieving families in Ukraine and Russia.
But instead of urging peace, most European nations have taken the opportunity to ramp up arms supplies, feed the war machine and boost the share prices of weapons manufacturers.
It is also the time to talk about our humanity, or lack of it, to people in deep distress as a result of armed conflict, abuse of their rights or the grinding poverty that many face as a result of the global economic system.
Almost 10 per cent of the population of Ukraine are now in exile, suffering trauma, loss and fear.
The effects of this war on the politics and hopes of our society are going to be huge, not least for the world’s institutions.
The United Nations was established after World War II to “save succeeding generations from the scourge of war.”
Since then we can reel off the long and lengthening list of conflicts and proxy wars the world has endured which have taken the lives of millions.
A huge question must be asked of the UN in the Ukraine conflict. When Russia brutally and illegally invaded Ukraine, that was the moment for the UN to send its secretary-general to Moscow to demand a ceasefire.
The UN has been too slow to act and too much of the inter-state system has pushed for escalation, not negotiation.
The call for more effective and proactive international institutions to support peace was powerfully made yesterday in Madrid at a conference hosted by Podemos, following a dialogue initiated by Progressive International.
Every one of the 17 speakers condemned the war and occupation and called for a ceasefire and a future of peace for the people of Ukraine and Russia.
https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/f/now-let-us-talk-peace
Corbyn is a pacifist and an indealist. He belives in negotiation over conflict. Always has done.
Here he seems to think he can appeal to Putin's better side and make him see sense through the UN. It's not favouring Russia over the US (he quite clearly condems Russia) it's just naivety - he is just plain wrong.
Putin has no better side, he'a murderous dictator. No negotiations will stop him until he is defeated militarily - whatever Corbyn thinks - but its best to read what he says rather than what he doesn't to know what he thinks.
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If Ukraine had followed Corbyns doctrine from the off, it would have capitulated in the first couple of days. Putin would have quickly installed a compliant government.
Moldova would most likely have fallen too.
Right now Putin would probably be threatening the Baltic's, or the Fins, or the Poles.
Does Corbyn not understand this? I think he does and would not have minded.
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Hindsight eh Syd.
When he was Labour leader you backed him to the hilt.
As did some others on here.
not wanting another lazy corrupt racist tory government lazy is a little different though aye Dot?
And to think if Comrade Corbyn had won we would have got anti-Semite government that would have let Ukraine die under the Russian boot. A government that would have not have given weapons to Ukraine to defend their land with a government that would have made the current German government look generous in their support for Ukraine.
That couldn't be more wrong. If he'd reused to assist Ukraine, he would have been overuled by the Shadow Cabinet. If they'd not overruled him, there would have been a vote of no confidence by the Parliamentary Labour Party. He'd have had to put his 4th Form morals on the shelf, or be turfed out.
That was the reason I was prepared to vote for a Corbyn-led Govt over a Johnson-led one in 2019. Because Corbyn's wilder ideas were opposed by the majority of Labour MPs, whereas Johnson's were embraced by most Tory MPs.
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If Ukraine had followed Corbyns doctrine from the off, it would have capitulated in the first couple of days. Putin would have quickly installed a compliant government.
Moldova would most likely have fallen too.
Right now Putin would probably be threatening the Baltic's, or the Fins, or the Poles.
Does Corbyn not understand this? I think he does and would not have minded.
There is a bit more in the actual article on what he sees as 'effective and proactive international institutions to support peace' - I didnt think they were relevant so didn't post them - but its free to read from the link.
Corbyn is a pacifist idealist. He believes that with effective negotiation there would have been no invasion. If he had won in 2019 he would have acted very differently towards the Russian oligarchs and their money in the UK - and towards the EU. Would this have stopped Putin - I sincerely doubt it - but we will never know.
Anyone trying to guess what Corbyn would have done in the face of an invasion wont know from what he has said here - because as I say, Corbyn believes with him in charge there would have been no invasion.
He's just wrong.
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I just find it difficult to believe that someone with Corbyns long experience in politics is really that naive.
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I've never got my head round where Corbyn is a naive idealist or a cynical ideologue when it comes to foreign policy. Either way, he works directly in Putin's interests.
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I just find it difficult to believe that someone with Corbyns long experience in politics is really that naive.
You need to factor in a very germane point. He's really not very intelligent.
Today's article where he distinguishes between "tactical" and "nuclear" weapons, while appearing to have no comprehension of how tactical nuclear weapons would be used is one example of how intellectually limited he is.
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And to think if Comrade Corbyn had won we would have got anti-Semite government that would have let Ukraine die under the Russian boot. A government that would have not have given weapons to Ukraine to defend their land with a government that would have made the current German government look generous in their support for Ukraine.
Apart from being off the mark, antisemitism has got nothing to do with this.
The remains of Ukraine has been further pulled into being a western surfdom by having more debt, It was already beholden to the corporate monsters before the war, now they are doomed to being taken over by bloody war on the one side and the corporate bankers on the other. Pawns, and exactly why they had Zelensky put in power.
A more peaceful solution would have been the only positive route for Ukraine even if there were losses in that. The time for positive action in this has long gone.
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I just find it difficult to believe that someone with Corbyns long experience in politics is really that naive.
You need to factor in a very germane point. He's really not very intelligent.
Today's article where he distinguishes between "tactical" and "nuclear" weapons, while appearing to have no comprehension of how tactical nuclear weapons would be used is one example of how intellectually limited he is.
Not sure where you get that?
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I just find it difficult to believe that someone with Corbyns long experience in politics is really that naive.
You need to factor in a very germane point. He's really not very intelligent.
Today's article where he distinguishes between &quot;tactical&quot; and &quot;nuclear&quot; weapons, <b>while appearing to have no comprehension of how tactical nuclear weapons would be used </b>is one example of how intellectually limited he is.
Not sure where you get that?
Read the article.
Tactical nuclear weapons are battlefield weapons. With (compared to strategic weapons) generally limited yield. Because you don't want to wipe out your own forces while nuking the opposition.
It is beyond any sensibly credible scenario for a single battlefield tactical warhead to kill hundreds of thousands of people. Because armed forces are rarely if ever concentrated in such vast numbers that a single tactical warhead could eliminate that number.
It's (yet) another example of Corbyn basically displaying his lack of knowledge.
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Hindsight again by BST who would have obviously voted for Corbyns Labour Party in the GE but now ridicules the man who would have been our PM had they won.
Hindsight eh Syd.
When he was Labour leader you backed him to the hilt.
As did some others on here.
not wanting another lazy corrupt racist tory government lazy is a little different though aye Dot?
And to think if Comrade Corbyn had won we would have got anti-Semite government that would have let Ukraine die under the Russian boot. A government that would have not have given weapons to Ukraine to defend their land with a government that would have made the current German government look generous in their support for Ukraine.
That couldn't be more wrong. If he'd reused to assist Ukraine, he would have been overuled by the Shadow Cabinet. If they'd not overruled him, there would have been a vote of no confidence by the Parliamentary Labour Party. He'd have had to put his 4th Form morals on the shelf, or be turfed out.
That was the reason I was prepared to vote for a Corbyn-led Govt over a Johnson-led one in 2019. Because Corbyn's wilder ideas were opposed by the majority of Labour MPs, whereas Johnson's were embraced by most Tory MPs.
There is no way you can know for certain that there would have been a vote of no confidence.
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Essentially Corbyn is as thick as a brick. If the Western democracies all had people of his views in power the whole of Eastern Europe would lay open to Putin.
One thing Johnson deserves credit for is the high level and swiftness of military aid being sent to Ukraine. Hence the praise he received from President Zelensky - a man not afraid to criticise world leaders in strong terms.
If Corbyn had won in 2017 (he was hobbled internally in 2019) this simply wouldn't have happened.
For a start he would have cut defence spending see the vid "Money spent on weapons is money not spent on health, education and housing." Therefore the same level of military aid would simply not have been available to be provided.
Also his pacifism would have meant he would have dragged his feet on sending weaponry and certainly wouldn't have led on this from the front as Johnson has. UK military aid would not have got to Ukraine as swiftly under Corbyn - and swiftness was vital in the defence of Kyiv.
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In a perverse sort of way, it’s a good job they aren’t all the same. :thumbsup:
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BR.
You're ignoring the fact that a PM Corbyn would have been constrained by the Parliamentary Labour party. That was why he never floated the policy dearest of all to his heart - leaving NATO. Because the party wouldn't have worn it. PM Corbyn would have had to work within the confines of what the party would have required of him. And only half a dozen Labour MPs would have supported him not supporting Ukraine.
A perfect example of how constrained he was is that Nia Griffiths was the shadow defence secretary for most of his time. Even though she was very far from the Left of the party and had voted for the ineffectual Owen Smith in the leadership election. No way on earth would she have agreed to blocking arms to Ukraine.
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But I agree, a PM Corbyn would have been far from ideal in this situation. He was at best a useful idiot for Russia.
That's why I said repeatedly in both 2017 and 2019 that we had a horrendous choice. A party led by at best a naive fool on Russia. Or a party fully bought out by Russia and prepared to ignore direct Russian meddling in our elections.
Here's hoping we never have such an awful choice again.
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Billy
I agree with you that a Labour government would still have sent arms to Ukraine, perhaps against Corbyn's personal wishes, for exactly the reason you give.
Read my post again - I'm arguing that the weaponry wouldn't have been sent as swiftly due to Corbyn's pacifism (he'd have dragged his feet and not led from the front on this) and the UK would not have had the capability to send as much military aid as defence spending from 2017 under Corbyn's Labour would inevitably been much lower due to his ideals.
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It's all hypothetical, what if he'd won stuff. We can see Corbyn usually has a hard time ever condemning Russian aggression, whilst finding it very easy to blame everything on the west and the States in particular.
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I just find it difficult to believe that someone with Corbyns long experience in politics is really that naive.
You need to factor in a very germane point. He's really not very intelligent.
Today's article where he distinguishes between &amp;quot;tactical&amp;quot; and &amp;quot;nuclear&amp;quot; weapons, &lt;b&gt;while appearing to have no comprehension of how tactical nuclear weapons would be used &lt;/b&gt;is one example of how intellectually limited he is.
Not sure where you get that?
Read the article.
Tactical nuclear weapons are battlefield weapons. With (compared to strategic weapons) generally limited yield. Because you don't want to wipe out your own forces while nuking the opposition.
It is beyond any sensibly credible scenario for a single battlefield tactical warhead to kill hundreds of thousands of people. Because armed forces are rarely if ever concentrated in such vast numbers that a single tactical warhead could eliminate that number.
It's (yet) another example of Corbyn basically displaying his lack of knowledge.
I did read the article. Seems you don't have a grasp of tactical v strategic nukes. They are in many cases interchangable, just used in different contexts. And then there are smaller weapons that can still end up being used near ;arge populatoins - ie as evidenced in the Ukraine where both sides, particularly the Ukraines, are using human shields.
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.....One thing Johnson deserves credit for is the high level and swiftness of military aid being sent to Ukraine. Hence the praise he received from President Zelensky - a man not afraid to criticise world leaders in strong terms.....
Johnson has been creaming for some military action, of course he'd pile in with arms, and manpower if he could. This is due to his personality, his championing of the corporate friends and backers, and of course his desperate plight needing a distraction. Hardly the safest hands in a crisis.
Zelensky is desperate to save his skin having been dropped in pace by the west due to the coup. He only has hardline statements including inviting in NATO to create WW3. He's bananas not fearless, there is a difference.
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Corbyn would have persued a different path to May/Johnson if he had won in 2017 or 2019 both towards Putin's money in the UK and our relationship with the EU. No-one knows where that would have led.
The path May and Johnson followed led to Russia invading Ukraine because under them and their policies Russia invaded Ukraine. Johnson has done well since the invasion but what, if any, part his policies towards Russia (remember the suppressed Russia Report) had in Putin believing he could attempt it, only the history books and the files in the Kremlin will tell us.
Those are the facts anything else is hypothetical.
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I just find it difficult to believe that someone with Corbyns long experience in politics is really that naive.
You need to factor in a very germane point. He's really not very intelligent.
Today's article where he distinguishes between &amp;amp;quot;tactical&amp;amp;quot; and &amp;amp;quot;nuclear&amp;amp;quot; weapons, &amp;lt;b&amp;gt;while appearing to have no comprehension of how tactical nuclear weapons would be used &amp;lt;/b&amp;gt;is one example of how intellectually limited he is.
Not sure where you get that?
Read the article.
Tactical nuclear weapons are battlefield weapons. With (compared to strategic weapons) generally limited yield. Because you don't want to wipe out your own forces while nuking the opposition.
It is beyond any sensibly credible scenario for a single battlefield tactical warhead to kill hundreds of thousands of people. Because armed forces are rarely if ever concentrated in such vast numbers that a single tactical warhead could eliminate that number.
It's (yet) another example of Corbyn basically displaying his lack of knowledge.
I did read the article. Seems you don't have a grasp of tactical v strategic nukes. They are in many cases interchangable, just used in different contexts. And then there are smaller weapons that can still end up being used near ;arge populatoins - ie as evidenced in the Ukraine where both sides, particularly the Ukraines, are using human shields.
I know very well the difference between tactical and strategic nuclear policy thanks BRR. A nuclear weapon of any size used against a densely populated area away from the battlefield is a strategic one.
You'd be better off lecturing Corbyn. He seems to think the division is between "tactical" and and "nuclear" weapons.
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Another gem of a line from that Corbyn article that I'd missed.
"A huge question must be asked of the UN in the Ukraine conflict. When Russia brutally and illegally invaded Ukraine, that was the moment for the UN to send its secretary-general to Moscow to demand a ceasefire."
Even for someone as intellectually limited as Corbyn, this is a humdinger. The SG of the UN has no authority to demand anything of anyone unless authorised to do so by the Security Council. Russia has a veto over any Security Council decision.
This reminds me of when Putin oversaw Assad's use of poison gas in Syria. Corbyn screamed that the proper process was for the UN to send its own investigation team to establish the facts. He said this immediately after Russia had vetoed such an investigation.
I DO think he's to thick to understand the consequences of what he says. But there's a fair argument to be made that he can't actually be that stupid, and he's deliberately acting as a Russian asset.
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I know very well the difference between tactical and strategic nuclear policy thanks BRR. A nuclear weapon of any size used against a densely populated area away from the battlefield is a strategic one.
You'd be better off lecturing Corbyn. He seems to think the division is between "tactical" and and "nuclear" weapons.
He was talking tactical battlefield nukes and the big nuke missiles, A tactical one can wipe out hundreds of thousands as he said, and as I said, with military using human shields this is not unlikely.
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...This reminds me of when Putin oversaw Assad's use of poison gas in Syria. Corbyn screamed that the proper process was for the UN to send its own investigation team to establish the facts. He said this immediately after Russia had vetoed such an investigation....
The poison gas being Assad and not a White Helmet set up is questionable at best. Having the US judging this is of course lunacy given their support of the White Helmets/Jihadis. Theoretically a UN investigation stands the best chance of getting some clarity. But yes, as it stands then Russia would need to agree to that and maybe they don't trust that institution to investigate that, and maybe that is for a valid reason, maybe not.
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What is relevant to investigate thoroughly are the US/Ukrainian biolabs. I suspect the US would veto that.
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You may well interpret that as being what he meant. But it isn't what he wrote. He said one "tactical" weapon WOULD kill hundreds of thousands. And one "nuclear" bomb would kill several million. No context. No separation of "tactical" and "strategic". It's his usual slapdash of half thought out ideas that he writes for a Morning Star readership that will lap it up uncritically.
I shouldn't need to say this but of course I'm not minimising the horror of nuclear weapons. The point is that this is typical of Corbyn's quality of thought and writing.
The idiotic comments about the supposed failing of the UN, and the idea that Putin would just say "yeah let's talk" in any way that wouldn't mean the destruction of Ukraine as an independent nation are classic additional examples. As is the total disregard of what would have happened had Ukraine not been armed to repulse the invasion. Occupation of Kiev. Installation of a puppet Govt. Jumping to the Kremlin's commands.
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A stitch in time .................
This comes as a former defence secretary accused previous Downing Street operations of being reluctant to support Kyiv in the aftermath of Russian president Vladimir Putin’s annexing of Crimea in 2014.
Michael Fallon told The Sunday Times that, when serving under former Conservative prime minister David Cameron, he was told to turn down requests for assistance in upgrading Ukraine’s defences despite the Ministry of Defence wanting “to do more”.
“We were stymied and we were blocked in Cabinet from sending the Ukrainians the arms they needed,” Mr Fallon told the newspaper.
“Some in the Cabinet felt extremely strongly that we should do nothing to further provoke Russia.
“I felt that was absurd. The Russians didn’t need any provoking. They were already there, sending people across the border.”
from the Guardian
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Syd, those are actually quotes from a big article in the Sunday Times on how and why, despite what the media line is now, since 2014 the Tories failed/refused to arm Ukraine so it would be able to repel a Russian invasion - until it was too late.
Not because they were leading on diplomatic efforts for de-escalation, as Corbyn says he would have done, but because they wanted Putin's money so didn't want to annoy him. They are not responsible for the invasion - but their actions helped enable it. Particuarly under Johnson:
There were many calls for Britain to confront Putin in a way that would demonstrate the high cost he would have to pay for breaking international law. The pressure to take decisive action greatly increased after the Salisbury chemical weapon attack.
As a result, two parliamentary inquiries — by the foreign affairs committee in 2018 and the intelligence and security committee in 2020 — called for sanctions to be imposed on the oligarchs in London. The committees’ recommendations, however, were largely ignored by the May and Johnson governments. While he was foreign secretary, Johnson sidestepped implementing the findings of the foreign affairs committee and later, as prime minister, delayed the release of the intelligence committee’s report. Britain did not independently sanction any oligarch with known UK assets until Russia invaded Ukraine on February 24.
There were a number of reasons for this inertia. A significant one, some claim, was the cosy relationship between the government and wealthy Russians who entertained ministers; gave money to the Conservative Party; brought wealth into London; and acquired important national assets such as a newspaper and Premier League football clubs.
It's free to read the full article - and its well worth a read
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ukraine-spent-seven-years-begging-three-pms-for-weapons-and-no-one-listened-58t5m9kkq
At the same time of course we were still sending arms and other military exports to Russia
https://bylinetimes.com/2022/02/15/uk-approved-military-exports-to-russia-exceed-ukraine-by-18-million-since-2010/
https://www.nationalworld.com/news/politics/uk-sell-weapons-russia-arms-exports-ukraine-crimea-3585359
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Thanks wilts, this report should send shivers down the spine of government, if they had one, it's a devastating litany of greed, cowardice and ineptitude at the top of successive tory governments especially where johnson is concerned and I would say supports every comment I have made about him and them.
I look forward to comments from any of this governments defenders on what they think.
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We have to keep in mind, hardly anybody thought the Russians would launch an all-out assault on Ukraine. Not least the Ukrainians. Not even Putin who thought he'd be welcomed in.
The international community hoped to bring Russia into the fold through trade. They thought the interdependence that brings would change Russia.
Crimea was a wake up call, that pretty much everyone ignored because interdependence is a two way thing and western Europe had come to rely on Russian hydrocarbons.
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Did you read the article RD?
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Did you read the article RD?
Not yet.
But that was the thinking. The same has happened with China, western investment would open it up and change it. China would no longer be a threat. China would become more like Hong Kong.
That hasn't turned out so well either.
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That doesn't excuse anything RD, I'd recommend anyone that wants to comment on the government's response to the Ukraine war and what led up to it to read the report.
The Times (that lefty rag) article is comprehensive and compelling.
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I'd like to read it but I'm not keen on signing up for it, even it is free.
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I'd like to read it but I'm not keen on signing up for it, even it is free.
Unfortunately I had to do that but I will cancel after 6 months so the special offer will only add 2 quid to murdoch's coffers.
correction 1 pound
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Hitting the oligarchs, while the right thing to do, would not have stopped Putin. Putin doesn't need the support of the oligarchs and hasn't done for over 15 years.
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The oligarchs, washing money through London, reports not acted upon all get a guernsey and more, combined the signal to Putin was 'come on down'
''Ukraine spent 7 years begging 3 PMs for weapons - and no one listened, Cameron, May and Johnson failed to contain Putin.
In the years after the Russian army rolled into Ukraine in 2014, the British minister in charge of fielding requests from Kyiv for military assistance was the defence secretary, Michael Fallon. He was the man who reluctantly kept having to say “no”. Fallon now looks back on that time with bitter regret. “I and the ministry wanted to do more,” he recalls. “We were stymied and we were blocked in cabinet from sending the Ukrainians the arms they needed.
In public David Cameron, the prime minister, insisted that the Ukraine crisis could be solved only by diplomacy — and therefore it was unnecessary to provide arms to the country. This was because, according to Fallon, those at the top of government feared that arming Ukraine would draw Putin’s ire.
Some in the cabinet felt extremely strongly that we should do nothing to further provoke Russia,” Fallon said. “I felt that was absurd. The Russians didn’t need any provoking. They were already there, sending people across the border.”
Britain’s policy of refusing to sell weapons to Ukraine continued for seven years. By the time Boris Johnson became foreign secretary in 2016, Russia had seized the Crimean peninsula, shot down the Malaysia Airlines Flight MH17, and given military support to President Assad’s ruthless regime in Syria.
Yet Johnson sought a “normalisation” of relations with Russia despite its illegal occupation of Crimea, and was a vocal advocate for the policy of sending only non-lethal military equipment to Kyiv.''
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ukraine-spent-seven-years-begging-three-pms-for-weapons-and-no-one-listened-58t5m9kkq
And it looks like Cameron was on the same page as Corbyn ..... ''it could only be solved by diplomacy''
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If people could leave the politcal point scoring to one side. A baby girl and mother has died in shelling leaving behind a grieving husband.
The bay girl was 3 months old. Had been born into a country about to be invaded.
Absolutely sickening. 3 months old for god's sake.
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If people could leave the politcal point scoring to one side. A baby girl and mother has died in shelling leaving behind a grieving husband.
The bay girl was 3 months old. Had been born into a country about to be invaded.
Absolutely sickening. 3 months old for god's sake.
If you think I don't know this you couldn't be more wrong and like any murder inquiry there has to be an examination of the circumstances to find the motive and with that knowledge to try to ensure it is not repeated. This was started in 2014.
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If people could leave the politcal point scoring to one side. A baby girl and mother has died in shelling leaving behind a grieving husband.
The bay girl was 3 months old. Had been born into a country about to be invaded.
Absolutely sickening. 3 months old for god's sake.
If you think I don't know this you couldn't be more wrong and like any murder inquiry there has to be an examination of the circumstances to find the motive and with that knowledge to try to ensure it is not repeated. This was started in 2014.
And the political points scoring continues
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you should take a stroll through your own back catalogue G
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you should take a stroll through your own back catalogue G
There is no bigger political points scorer on this forum than you. So if the cap fits wear it
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As the evidence grows the complaints start about making it political like night follows day.
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This is not about what Cobyn or Starmer would / would have done. This is about what is happening right now.
Men, women, eldery, children, families are losing their places of work, schools, homes, neighbourhoods, their lives are being ripped apart. And these are the lucky ones.
I have never lived in the fear of a conflict like this. I cant begin to imagine what these poor people are going through, the horrible pictures and videos. Imagine if that was your street, or an office block where you work or the road you drive everyday littered with destoryed tanks. Or having to pack yours and your family belongings in a bag on your back and flee your home. Many of these men having to kiss goodbye to their loved ones and return to flight for freedom knowing they will probably never see their families again.
Thousands of lives on both sides of the conflict have been avoidably lost. Russians have lost their sons, brothers, dads and mates. All for what?
Take a look at yourself and think about what you are posting here. This is not about tory v labor or political point scoring.
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A tragedy like this should never about political point scoring (although that didn't stop Johnson in that disgusting speech a couple of weeks back).
But that absolutely doesn't mean that you don't reflect on political.lessons.
It's a crying shame that holding politicians to account is automatically translated by some as scoring points.
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Did you mean to write should or shouldnt there billy?
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Did you mean to write should or shouldnt there billy?
My mistake. Thanks for the heads up. Corrected now.
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So in the same sentence you say they shouldnt be point scoring and try to score points.
I give up.
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So in the same sentence you say they shouldnt be point scoring and try to score points.
I give up.
No. I say you shouldn't play point scoring but you should hold politicians to account.
It is not point scoring to point out that Johnson was engaging in some of the most disgusting political point scoring I've ever seen when he compared Ukrainians giving their lives to people voting for Brexit. It is holding politicians to account.
I would criticise any politician of any party that engaged in shit like that. I assume you would too?
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So in the same sentence you say they shouldnt be point scoring and try to score points.
I give up.
No. I say you shouldn't play point scoring but you should hold politicians to account.
It is not point scoring to point out that Johnson was engaging in some of the most disgusting political point scoring I've ever seen when he compared Ukrainians giving their lives to people voting for Brexit. It is holding politicians to account.
I would criticise any politician of any party that engaged in shit like that. I assume you would too?
I can't remember BST so if you could help,
Did you criticize Blair and his awful cronies for his "weapons of mass destruction" diatribe.
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I've said often enough that I left the Labour party and voted against Labour in 2005 DD.
Happy?
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Always. :thumbsup:
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''The German vice-chancellor says it was a mistake that his country didn't support Ukraine militarily much earlier.
In an interview with German public service broadcaster Zweites Deutsches Fernsehen, Robert Habeck says the support should have started years ago.
“We certainly should have supported Ukraine militarily much earlier, and I'm not just talking about days or weeks, but years," he says.''
The German vice-chancellor says it was a mistake that his country didn't support Ukraine militarily much earlier.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-61185469
Good to see a politician accept reality.
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You may well interpret that as being what he meant. But it isn't what he wrote. He said one "tactical" weapon WOULD kill hundreds of thousands. And one "nuclear" bomb would kill several million. No context. No separation of "tactical" and "strategic". It's his usual slapdash of half thought out ideas that he writes for a Morning Star readership that will lap it up uncritically.
I shouldn't need to say this but of course I'm not minimising the horror of nuclear weapons. The point is that this is typical of Corbyn's quality of thought and writing.
The idiotic comments about the supposed failing of the UN, and the idea that Putin would just say "yeah let's talk" in any way that wouldn't mean the destruction of Ukraine as an independent nation are classic additional examples. As is the total disregard of what would have happened had Ukraine not been armed to repulse the invasion. Occupation of Kiev. Installation of a puppet Govt. Jumping to the Kremlin's commands.
I think you choose to interpret what Corbyn said in your way. It's not rocket science ;)
Yep, they do have a puppet government. And they did before. That is the problem, whichever way they go they are stuffed. There has been a long time to engage diplomatically and create a situation that was just enough for both sides. The west simply ploughed in as per usual, and Russia did the same. I think that is not a successful way forwards for anyone, especially the Ikraine.
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''The German vice-chancellor says it was a mistake that his country didn't support Ukraine militarily much earlier.
In an interview with German public service broadcaster Zweites Deutsches Fernsehen, Robert Habeck says the support should have started years ago.
“We certainly should have supported Ukraine militarily much earlier, and I'm not just talking about days or weeks, but years," he says.''
The German vice-chancellor says it was a mistake that his country didn't support Ukraine militarily much earlier.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-61185469
Good to see a politician accept reality.
Hindsight politics, eh?
Too many ifs and assumptions in that to be near "reality". Who knows what would have happened with more military being fed into the brewing crisis at an earlier date. And to think that there hasn't been military feeding in there anyway is naiive.
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''The German vice-chancellor says it was a mistake that his country didn't support Ukraine militarily much earlier.
In an interview with German public service broadcaster Zweites Deutsches Fernsehen, Robert Habeck says the support should have started years ago.
“We certainly should have supported Ukraine militarily much earlier, and I'm not just talking about days or weeks, but years," he says.''
The German vice-chancellor says it was a mistake that his country didn't support Ukraine militarily much earlier.
https://www.bbc.com/news/live/world-europe-61185469
Good to see a politician accept reality.
Hindsight politics, eh?
Too many ifs and assumptions in that to be near "reality". Who knows what would have happened with more military being fed into the brewing crisis at an earlier date. And to think that there hasn't been military feeding in there anyway is naiive.
If Syd had been a German would he have been slagging off their government rather than praising them ?
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.
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I really don’t like this recent response from Putin.
There is already outside interference in Ukraine on a massive scale. So why is there no response now?
I wonder what he speaks of? Where in gods name is his head at the moment? Up his own arse I reckon.
The Sarmat 2 ICBM is the stuff of nightmares.
One missile and that’s the uk gone. Everything. Everyone. All living things. No where to run or hide. And to be frank, why would you want to survive such a thing?
I never thought I would hear this shit again in my lifetime.
It seems very real.
I hope it isn’t.
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''A former head of the Polish army has accused Boris Johnson of “tempting evil” by revealing that Ukrainian soldiers were being trained in Poland in how to use British anti-aircraft missiles before returning with them to Ukraine.
Gen Waldemar Skrzypczak, also a former junior defence minister, complained that a loose-lipped prime minister had revealed too much to the Russians and that his remarks risked the safety of the soldiers involved.
Speaking to Polish tabloid Fakt, Skrzypczak said that Johnson had revealed “a military secret” and that “bad words are on the lips” when he gave details of the Ukrainian training plan on a trip to India last week.
“Military training is a matter of the army, in such a situation secret. Let a man restrain himself and think before he says such things,” said the former general to the newspaper, which described his tone as irritated in an article from Friday.''
from the Guardian. (ownership held by the Scott trust)
Johnson has a history of shooting from the lip as Zaghari-Ratcliffe and family found to their cost,
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Did he criticise Biden too? He talked about it a month ago.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.cnn.com/cnn/2022/03/29/politics/us-troops-poland-ukraine/index.html
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I don't know did he?
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Let’s face it. We are at war with Russia in all but name.
If Russia’s land Army continues to be depleted like it is, at the hands of western supplied weapons, and putins oil empire crumbles around him, I’d say that would be an existential threat to Russia.
And Putin has made it very clear from the outset what will happen at that point.
Ben Wallace writing this off as distraction tactics by Russia is either a very calculated, brave or very, very stupid conception, which could risk the lives of all of us.
Sitting back and watching Russia invade Ukraine would have been a difficult thing to do, but as this conflict wears on with its obvious growing threat to the wider world, I’m beginning to think that may have been a better option.
Ask yourself this. If Russia drops bombs in Poland along the supply route for western weapons. What then?
The combined forces of NATO will crumple what is left of Russia’s land Army.
Then Russia would definitely be in existential threat territory.
Dumb ass soldiers sat in deep underground bunkers that, without question, will start pressing buttons with pre determined targets, and no amount of diplomacy will stop it.
Those living in The UK have around 20 minutes to make good what would be left of their lives.
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Let’s face it. We are at war with Russia in all but name.
If Russia’s land Army continues to be depleted like it is, at the hands of western supplied weapons, and putins oil empire crumbles around him, I’d say that would be an existential threat to Russia.
And Putin has made it very clear from the outset what will happen at that point.
Ben Wallace writing this off as distraction tactics by Russia is either a very calculated, brave or very, very stupid conception, which could risk the lives of all of us.
Sitting back and watching Russia invade Ukraine would have been a difficult thing to do, but as this conflict wears on with its obvious growing threat to the wider world, I’m beginning to think that may have been a better option.
Ask yourself this. If Russia drops bombs in Poland along the supply route for western weapons. What then?
The combined forces of NATO will crumple what is left of Russia’s land Army.
Then Russia would definitely be in existential threat territory.
Dumb ass soldiers sat in deep underground bunkers that, without question, will start pressing buttons with pre determined targets, and no amount of diplomacy will stop it.
Those living in The UK have around 20 minutes to make good what would be left of their lives.
It would also be a stupid move by Russia, knowing that somewhere under sea not far from Moscow there will be UK, and US Submarines lurking with nuclear weapons already trained on Moscow and other major City’s, it would also see the end of Russia
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'Sitting back and watching' has a flaw in it, what happens when the next bully comes along?
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'Sitting back and watching' has a flaw in it, what happens when the next bully comes along?
It’s a difficult one.
Then the school bully sets fire to the whole school, with everyone in it .
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I see MissTrusst is stoking the fires, we must be strong Russia must be cleared from ALL of Ukraine
Is this the start of her leadership campaign?
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Putin's oil empire isn't crumbling yet. Since the invasion and sky high energy prices, he's actually been coining it in.
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Russia’s state owned Rosneft failed to find enough buyers to fill a fleet of oil tankers last week. 38 million barrels of oil unsold.
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It’s a high risk game played by both sides. However, one thing that we seem to know about Putin is that he respects strength and deplores weakness in any shape. That’s why I suspect that NATO are gradually increasing the rhetoric and flexing its muscles. Putin, and his generals will understand that a war with NATO is a war that they cannot win (both conventional and nuclear) therefore they’re gradually removing this option for him by playing him at his own game; of making existential threats to enemies.
The main problem Putin now has is that this terrible war has shown the world that Russian armed forces are not the ‘superpower’ that many thought it was. Against huge odds the Ukraine has shone a light on their very significant weaknesses. This plays right into the hands of NATO. I think that we are approaching the end of finding a ‘get out’ card for Putin to withdraw whilst saving face and are now entering a new phase where there’s actually a chance that Ukraine will win with backing from other nations.
The moment that we begin to hear Russian leaders talking about ‘negotiated ends to the conflict’ is the moment they realise that they can’t win…and will become a closed state.
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Russia’s state owned Rosneft failed to find enough buyers to fill a fleet of oil tankers last week. 38 million barrels of oil unsold.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/27/russia-doubles-fossil-fuel-revenues-since-invasion-of-ukraine-began
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There are suggestions this may descend into a protracted war, as many wars do.
That is likely to mean continued high energy prices, a dramatic fall in living standards in the West, famine and migration from the developing world, recession in China. And Russians would continue struggling with sanctions which will only bite harder as time progresses.
At least though, there would be time for Putin to fall one way or another.
And I suppose there would be a real hard impetus for the world to find real affordable alternatives to fossil fuels.
It would be grim but we might at least avoid Armageddon.
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I don’t get why the whole world couldn’t see the the flaw in reliance on Russian gas, while Putin was in charge there, he’s worked on this situation for years
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Russian fossil fuels were the path of least resistance.
The known technology we have long used. And we told ourselves that because Russia was trading and opening up to the world, it would change and become westernised.
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Russian fossil fuels were the path of least resistance.
The known technology we have long used. And we told ourselves that because Russia was trading and opening up to the world, it would change and become westernised.
Not a chance while a former KGB agent is in charge, he’s played the West big time
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I see MissTrusst is stoking the fires, we must be strong Russia must be cleared from ALL of Ukraine
Is this the start of her leadership campaign?
Yes, there's a khaki election on at the moment here.
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Oz ABC reporter in Georgia reporting that 10s of thousands of Russians have fled there and are protesting about Putin.
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Russia’s state owned Rosneft failed to find enough buyers to fill a fleet of oil tankers last week. 38 million barrels of oil unsold.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/apr/27/russia-doubles-fossil-fuel-revenues-since-invasion-of-ukraine-began
Panic buying by those eu states still willing to do business with Gazprom.
It won’t last.
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Let’s face it. We are at war with Russia in all but name.
If Russia’s land Army continues to be depleted like it is, at the hands of western supplied weapons....
Ukraine is using mainly non western weapons, but its a nice bit of propaganda to suggest otherwise.
Also, what proportopn of Ukraines forces have been killed/injured? Fact is we don't know the losses on either side, but we do know that both sides are killing each other. How weak are the Ukraine front lines becoming? I say this and oould go on, not to big up Russia but to make it clear that there's a lot of misinformation out there about the successes of the Ukraines. It's blatent propaganda.
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And this is what happens when people consume so much propaganda that they deny the concept of Objective Truth.
BRR.
Do you accept:
1) Russia attempted to occupy Kiev and were totally defeated, leading to an absolute withdrawal?
2) Elsewhere, after 9 weeks of horrific fighting, Russian forces have advanced no more than a few 10s of miles from their pre-Feb positions?
3) Meanwhile Russia has unleashed massive artillery barrages against civillian areas?
4) Russia has lost over 500 front line tanks and over 3000 military vehicles in total?
Those are all unarguable facts. I assume you don't deny any of them?
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Another fact. 80% of Russia’s land army are conscripts.
Many of them very young men with little training.
Ukraine’s army is much different. Better trained. Much more resolute. Better organised.
Added to this is a defensive force is always harder to defeat than an offensive one. Think Rourkes Drift. In eastern Ukraine there are troops that have been dug in for the last 8 years.
Add morale to all this. Many Russian troops have been hoodwinked into this whole saga. Being told they would be welcomed by Ukrainians with open arms. Psychologically that’s going to hurt. Many of them will be defeated before they even get started.
But I’m not niaive enough to know that superior firepower and sheer numbers will win this conflict. It’s just what the exact winning will look like for Ukraine.
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Here is an interesting strategic overview by the Hudson Institute.
He predicts the Dneiper River could become Ukraine’s Berlin Wall with Ukraine effectively split into West and East. With Russia controlling the East. And what’s left of Ukraine constantly fighting for independance. Perhaps this is Putins long term strategy?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwic09fc4Lj3AhVOPcAKHe1-A5EQFnoECAYQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.hudson.org%2Fresearch%2F17637-a-winning-strategy-in-ukraine&usg=AOvVaw2mRcqat92N9O8AY7oGCuFY
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Let’s face it. We are at war with Russia in all but name.
If Russia’s land Army continues to be depleted like it is, at the hands of western supplied weapons....
Ukraine is using mainly non western weapons, but its a nice bit of propaganda to suggest otherwise.
Also, what proportopn of Ukraines forces have been killed/injured? Fact is we don't know the losses on either side, but we do know that both sides are killing each other. How weak are the Ukraine front lines becoming? I say this and oould go on, not to big up Russia but to make it clear that there's a lot of misinformation out there about the successes of the Ukraines. It's blatent propaganda.
MoD intelligence was claiming approximately for every 3 Russian losses the Ukrainians were losing 1.
Mind you I saw that stat weeks ago
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Another fact. 80% of Russia’s land army are conscripts.
Many of them very young men with little training.
Ukraine’s army is much different. Better trained. Much more resolute. Better organised.
Added to this is a defensive force is always harder to defeat than an offensive one. Think Rourkes Drift. In eastern Ukraine there are troops that have been dug in for the last 8 years.
Add morale to all this. Many Russian troops have been hoodwinked into this whole saga. Being told they would be welcomed by Ukrainians with open arms. Psychologically that’s going to hurt. Many of them will be defeated before they even get started.
Add in the fact that no doubt Ukraine will be recieving all the latest western intelligence and strategic advice.
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Gotta love the daily express.
They are running a story online about the consequences of a sarmat 2 nuclear strike on the uk. They are saying, and I quote, “it would do serious damage”
Ffs. What planet are they on. There are no expletives that would cover such an event.
They go on to say that we have no protection against it. This is true. But then say that top government officials could hide in bunkers under Whitehall. Jesus Christ.
What use would a PM or govt be when there is nothing left to govern?
The uk laid barren to a nuclear wasteland.
Closely followed by Large parts of Russia and then Europe. Then The USA.
Rwanda seems like an attractive proposition at the moment. As Africa is left largely unscathed during any nuclear war modelling.
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Gotta love the daily express.
They are running a story online about the consequences of a sarmat 2 nuclear strike on the uk. They are saying, and I quote, “it would do serious damage”
Ffs. What planet are they on. There are no expletives that would cover such an event.
They go on to say that we have no protection against it. This is true. But then say that top government officials could hide in bunkers under Whitehall. Jesus Christ.
What use would a PM or govt be when there is nothing left to govern?
The uk laid barren to a nuclear wasteland.
Closely followed by Large parts of Russia and then Europe. Then The USA.
Rwanda seems like an attractive proposition at the moment. As Africa is left largely unscathed during any nuclear war modelling.
In Rwanda you would slowly die of radiation sickness and/or starvation in the nuclear winter.
Better to pop off quickly I think.
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Gotta love the daily express.
They are running a story online about the consequences of a sarmat 2 nuclear strike on the uk. They are saying, and I quote, “it would do serious damage”
Ffs. What planet are they on. There are no expletives that would cover such an event.
They go on to say that we have no protection against it. This is true. But then say that top government officials could hide in bunkers under Whitehall. Jesus Christ.
What use would a PM or govt be when there is nothing left to govern?
The uk laid barren to a nuclear wasteland.
Closely followed by Large parts of Russia and then Europe. Then The USA.
Rwanda seems like an attractive proposition at the moment. As Africa is left largely unscathed during any nuclear war modelling.
But if it landed on Barnsley it could do untold good
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And this is what happens when people consume so much propaganda that they deny the concept of Objective Truth.
BRR.
Do you accept:
1) Russia attempted to occupy Kiev and were totally defeated, leading to an absolute withdrawal?
2) Elsewhere, after 9 weeks of horrific fighting, Russian forces have advanced no more than a few 10s of miles from their pre-Feb positions?
3) Meanwhile Russia has unleashed massive artillery barrages against civillian areas?
4) Russia has lost over 500 front line tanks and over 3000 military vehicles in total?
Those are all unarguable facts. I assume you don't deny any of them?
You have got your dates wrong there if not being grossly mistaken. Here's the positions on 31 Jan, 28 Feb, 31 Mar and today. Though there were also Ukraine reports of approx 10miles further advancement NW of Donetsk a couple of days back not added to the map.
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And this is what happens when people consume so much propaganda that they deny the concept of Objective Truth.
BRR.
Do you accept:
1) Russia attempted to occupy Kiev and were totally defeated, leading to an absolute withdrawal?
2) Elsewhere, after 9 weeks of horrific fighting, Russian forces have advanced no more than a few 10s of miles from their pre-Feb positions?
3) Meanwhile Russia has unleashed massive artillery barrages against civillian areas?
4) Russia has lost over 500 front line tanks and over 3000 military vehicles in total?
Those are all unarguable facts. I assume you don't deny any of them?
1) I think it's likely that the Russian generals expected a lot more of an easy move on Kiev. However, I also think it's most likely they had the expectation that occupation of Kiev itself would be unlikely and were aiming to surround it. They may also have just been chancing their arm, or drawing Ukraine forces there whilst they made their more realistic efforts in the south, which have been arguably half way successful. At the same time, destroying Ukraine infastructure leaving it weaker. Future politics and western take over is likely to ultimately more than reverse this.
3) It's war. Ukraine has done exactly the same, and has been for some time in the Donbas. It appears a lot of Ukraine defence has been based in occupying civilian buildings including hospitals. In Mariupol that appears too be fairly undesputible - something not at all mentioned by western media, but no surprise there. I don't doubt that attrocities have been committed by both sides.
4) I believe that is true, but why didn't you say how many Ukraine has lost? Really?
The same goes for warplanes and helicopters, it seems both sides have has similar losses. However, Russia has far more left. An invading army is always likely to lose more hardware and troops.
I am not defending Russia here, far from it, but I do despise the way propaganda is considered "fact", as you illustrate here - you give one side not a balanced overview, yet you call it unaruable objective truth which it isn't. Why?
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Another fact. 80% of Russia’s land army are conscripts.
Many of them very young men with little training.
Ukraine’s army is much different. Better trained. Much more resolute. Better organised.
Added to this is a defensive force is always harder to defeat than an offensive one. Think Rourkes Drift. In eastern Ukraine there are troops that have been dug in for the last 8 years.
Add morale to all this. Many Russian troops have been hoodwinked into this whole saga. Being told they would be welcomed by Ukrainians with open arms. Psychologically that’s going to hurt. Many of them will be defeated before they even get started.
But I’m not niaive enough to know that superior firepower and sheer numbers will win this conflict. It’s just what the exact winning will look like for Ukraine.
In the main I agree, but it is wrong to assume the demoralisation extends throughout the Russian troops. It will have some effect, especially amongst those conscripts from far off places in Russia. I doubt the Chechan fighters are feeling that way, and many of their troops do feel this war is justified for the many reasons of western advancement on their country. Whether or not we see it that way is not relevant - they do, mainly anyway.
Some of the Ukraine troops are well trained, and in their homeland, yet there are many who are less well trained and organised. Man for man I would say they are effectively stronger, though they will begin to tire.
Again, I'm not pro Russian here, just that the propaganda always goes to say the others are demoralised and weaker and surrendering etc etc - some of that may be true but it is exaggerated and does also go both ways.
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Trying to peer through the fog of war, I do think Russia stepping up the warnings of WWIII and nuclear attack on the west suggests things aren't going as well as they would like.
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And this is what happens when people consume so much propaganda that they deny the concept of Objective Truth.
BRR.
Do you accept:
1) Russia attempted to occupy Kiev and were totally defeated, leading to an absolute withdrawal?
2) Elsewhere, after 9 weeks of horrific fighting, Russian forces have advanced no more than a few 10s of miles from their pre-Feb positions?
3) Meanwhile Russia has unleashed massive artillery barrages against civillian areas?
4) Russia has lost over 500 front line tanks and over 3000 military vehicles in total?
Those are all unarguable facts. I assume you don't deny any of them?
You have got your dates wrong there if not being grossly mistaken. Here's the positions on 31 Jan, 28 Feb, 31 Mar and today. Though there were also Ukraine reports of approx 10miles further advancement NW of Donetsk a couple of days back not added to the map.
So Russia didn't control Crimea before 24 Feb? When you take that into account, my comment stands. Nowhere have Russian forces sustainably driven as much as a hundred miles beyond borders that they controlled pre-Feb 24. Where they have driven furthest, they have dangerously extended supply lines.
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It might be my age but i just brush off warnings of nuclear war now.
Frankly life under a bas**rd like Putin is not worth contemplating. So in Churchillian style the only option is to resist come what may.
I guess the Kremlin don't understand this but really those fighting for democracy don't have much to lose and everything to gain. Even if the their victory unltimately will prove to be a bit disappointing. It's far, far better than the alternative.
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And this is what happens when people consume so much propaganda that they deny the concept of Objective Truth.
BRR.
Do you accept:
1) Russia attempted to occupy Kiev and were totally defeated, leading to an absolute withdrawal?
2) Elsewhere, after 9 weeks of horrific fighting, Russian forces have advanced no more than a few 10s of miles from their pre-Feb positions?
3) Meanwhile Russia has unleashed massive artillery barrages against civillian areas?
4) Russia has lost over 500 front line tanks and over 3000 military vehicles in total?
Those are all unarguable facts. I assume you don't deny any of them?
You have got your dates wrong there if not being grossly mistaken. Here's the positions on 31 Jan, 28 Feb, 31 Mar and today. Though there were also Ukraine reports of approx 10miles further advancement NW of Donetsk a couple of days back not added to the map.
So Russia didn't control Crimea before 24 Feb? When you take that into account, my comment stands. Nowhere have Russian forces sustainably driven as much as a hundred miles into Ukraine. Where they have driven furthest, they have dangerously extended supply lines.
Of course Russia controlled Crimea previously, where have I suggested they haven't except for clipping the maps for simplicity wth the understanding Crimea was already a done deal.
You said 10s of miles, whilst the map shows advancements of between 50 and 100 miles along the whole southern and NE region. It's a significant amount of territory. "10s" is not reflective of the reality.
Yes, supply lines have been an issue. It appears establishing them has been a focus of recent after which taking the whole Donbas is very likely fairly soon. I think the minimum aim will be that plus Mykolaiv in the SW. Beyond that taking Kahkiv and down to Zaporizhzhia is likely to be as far as they would go, and a 50 mile strip over to Transnistria, and that patch of land south of Moldova, thus taking all the coast. Any of that extra would be bonus. Taking Odessa would be the icing on the cake, but I doubt that will happen.
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They've really got to take Odessa if they want to connect Transinistra.
And Ukraine cannot afford to Be without a sea port...
So rock and a hard place. The only option is to resist.
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BRR.
I'm genuinely gobsmacked by your comment "It's war. Ukraine had done exactly the same" regarding the mass targeting of civillian areas.
I've always assumed you were left wing. I genuinely cannot understand how anyone on the Left can glibly dismiss the war crimes of a fascist tyrrant who has flattened cities in previous wars with a bothsides throwaway.
Ukraine has done nothing remotely similar to the destruction of Mariupol. It has done nothing remote close to the mass deportation of civillians. It hasn't systematically tortured and killed hundreds of unarmed civillians. And most of all, it hasn't and didn't start the fighting. That was started by Russia, both in 2014 and in 2022.
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BST, are you saying that you can expect people on the right (of politics) to glibly dismiss war crimes.
If so I find that to be a disgusting thing to assume.
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BST, are you saying that you can expect people on the right (of politics) to glibly dismiss war crimes.
If so I find that to be a disgusting thing to assume.
I think it is more likely that extremists will glibly dismiss war crimes.
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Isn’t it possible to be extreme left wing then?
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BST, are you saying that you can expect people on the right (of politics) to glibly dismiss war crimes.
If so I find that to be a disgusting thing to assume.
I think it is more likely that extremists will glibly dismiss war crimes.
War is a crime, as are despotic acts that push towards it. The west is far from innocent in this, it has blood on it's hands, Having said that, Russia pulling the actual trigger is inexcusable.
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BST, are you saying that you can expect people on the right (of politics) to glibly dismiss war crimes.
If so I find that to be a disgusting thing to assume.
I think it is more likely that extremists will glibly dismiss war crimes.
Jesus. THIS is a perfect example of why it has been so liberating to ignore a couple of people. The absolute determination to read the very worst intention into everything I write.
No of f**king course I don't mean that I EXPECT people on the right to glibly dismiss war crimes. But some do. We have (or had) one in here who cheered on Putin's destruction of Grozny and Aleppo. To the best of my memory, before I blocked him Hound never once showed any disgust at that poster's disgusting attitudes.
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BST, are you saying that you can expect people on the right (of politics) to glibly dismiss war crimes.
If so I find that to be a disgusting thing to assume.
I think it is more likely that extremists will glibly dismiss war crimes.
War is a crime, as are despotic acts that push towards it. The west is far from innocent in this, it has blood on it's hands, Having said that, Russia pulling the actual trigger is inexcusable.
But you still believe there's equality between Ukrainian and Russian actions in the conflict?
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BRR.
I'm genuinely gobsmacked by your comment "It's war. Ukraine had done exactly the same" regarding the mass targeting of civillian areas.
I've always assumed you were left wing. I genuinely cannot understand how anyone on the Left can glibly dismiss the war crimes of a fascist tyrrant who has flattened cities in previous wars with a bothsides throwaway.
Ukraine has done nothing remotely similar to the destruction of Mariupol. It has done nothing remote close to the mass deportation of civillians. It hasn't systematically tortured and killed hundreds of unarmed civillians. And most of all, it hasn't and didn't start the fighting. That was started by Russia, both in 2014 and in 2022.
The coup in the Ukraine was a significant starter to all this, it was not democratic, something that doesn't get a mention in msm. That was instigated/staged by the west. You try to simplify this way too much. It is complex.
Anyway, I'm not dismissing the acts of Russia. Unlike you however, I'm equally not dismissing the acts of Ukraine who have used civilians as shields as well as targetted civilians and civilian buildings themselves primarily in the Donbas over many years, and more recently in Mariupol for instance.
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BST, are you saying that you can expect people on the right (of politics) to glibly dismiss war crimes.
If so I find that to be a disgusting thing to assume.
I think it is more likely that extremists will glibly dismiss war crimes.
War is a crime, as are despotic acts that push towards it. The west is far from innocent in this, it has blood on it's hands, Having said that, Russia pulling the actual trigger is inexcusable.
But you still believe there's equality between Ukrainian and Russian actions in the conflict?
Who knows the full details? It is evident that both sides are guilty. Equally? Probably not but that desn't change that they are both guilty.
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BRR.
By "coup" do you mean a peaceful, if insistent demonstration that didn't turn violent until Yanukovych's security forces started beating, and eventually shooting the demonstrators?
I think the traditional word on the Left for the uprising is "revolution" rather than "coup". Strange choice of word.
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BST, are you saying that you can expect people on the right (of politics) to glibly dismiss war crimes.
If so I find that to be a disgusting thing to assume.
I think it is more likely that extremists will glibly dismiss war crimes.
Jesus. THIS is a perfect example of why it has been so liberating to ignore a couple of people. The absolute determination to read the very worst intention into everything I write.
No of f**king course I don't mean that I EXPECT people on the right to glibly dismiss war crimes. But some do. We have (or had) one in here who cheered on Putin's destruction of Grozny and Aleppo. To the best of my memory, before I blocked him Hound never once showed any disgust at that poster's disgusting attitudes.
The trouble with blocking people bst, is that you don’t know whether or not they have expressed disgust at other peoples posts.
To be honest, when I asked you to block me it was liberating for me too because you did have a habit of criticising almost anything I said in the off topic section.
Win/win for us both then.
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BRR.
By "coup" do you mean a peaceful, if insistent demonstration that didn't turn violent until Yanukovych's security forces started beating, and eventually shooting the demonstrators?
I think the traditional word on the Left for the uprising is "revolution" rather than "coup". Strange choice of word.
Choose what word you want. Either way it was never just a public uprising. It was stirred by the west just like many government changes are - "arab spring" etc etc.
And pick what you want to reply to, seems you don't want to acknowledge any Ukrainian wrong doing at all. Choices eh!
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No, it's not that I don't want to acknowledge Ukrainian wrong doing.
It is that I want to get things in context.
The context is that Putin is an evil, fascist thug. He has spent 20 years showing that he has no respect for human life. He has built his mystique around being someone who can be seen to smash opposition. And I genuinely cannot understand how anyone on the Left can find excuses or explanations for that.
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As far as I can see you have batted away every suggestion of Ukraine shelling civilians. Where do you get your news?
Understanding why something occured, who was iinvolved, what interests were being pushed by who etc is not about excusing anything. You context focuses on the sharp end, and yes that evil needs to be stopped. Why play the rhetorical game of ignoring the other evil in the ever so slightly wider context.
As in every place in the world, gangsters vie for control amd when the dommination from one gangster slips, it gets messy. Innocents are caught up, and I include most of the troops in that.
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BRR
I'm not closing my eyes to anything from Ukraine. But it is a matter of scale. Ukraine has done nothing remotely on the scale of what Putin has done in Grozny, Aleppo or Mariupol. You are trying to equate the two. That means, in effect, you are excusing Putin's policy of extermination. You are trying to dress that up with bothsidesism arguments. I think that is a morally bankrupt approach which essentially gives a free pass to imperialistic barbarism.
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Ukraine wishes to be a free, democratic country and choose its own leaders amd government - Putin doesn't believe a country called Ukraine should exist but should be a region of Greater Russia told what to do by him. Russia is fighting a war of fascist imperial conquest - the Ukrainian's are fighting for survival.
If Russia looses they will go home. If Ukraine looses, you will never see them again. There is no equivalence.
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Perfectly put Wilts.
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This is what it leads to when your leaders deny the existence of Objective Truth.
Russia: Our work in Ukraine is a sacred mission to de-Nazify the country.
Rest of World: Ukraine's President is Jewish.
Russia: So what? Hitler had Jewish blood. We are justified in destroying Mariupol.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-61296682
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Actually. That comment from Lavrov. Truly chilling. For this reason.
He's seeing "Jewishness" in terms of blood, rather than in terms of beliefs and customs.
I haven't heard a major politician in Europe speaking in this way since...well, Hitler.
It's beyond any argument that Hitler wasn't "Jewish" in terms of what he believed and how he lived his life. But Lavrov raises the rumour (and it is little more than that) that Hitler's grandfather was the illegitimate son of a wealthy Jew to support his utterly disgusting argument that Zelensky is a Nazi.
I naively thought we were well past these sorts of medieval arguments. But there you have the Foreign Secretary of Russia using them. And no-one at home will call him out. Because he and Putin have destroyed the concept of Objective Truth in Russia.
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Every once in a while I do start to worry about the Russian war ending up in nuclear Armageddon.
Then I look at this picture.
(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2022/5/2/7c0f1b31-2e04-4136-8e8f-153a97c10b8a.jpg)
A man so cowardly that he's scared of even letting close comrades get near to him is never going to commit suicide by pressing the button.
I have to admit, looking at that photo does make me feel slightly sorry for Putin. What f**ked up experiences did he undergo in childhood to turn him into this thug-coward?
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This was his childhood summed up pretty well. It does not make good reading.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi0h5e4ocH3AhXCoFwKHfUsBWMQFnoECAIQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Facestoohigh.com%2F2022%2F03%2F02%2Fhow-vladimir-putins-childhood-is-affecting-us-all%2F&usg=AOvVaw1kh22DfgWMb9FwynnBK8zS
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Scary that NR. It resonates too many levels.....
BobG
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Could be paper talk or could there be something in it, guess we will know soon - reported by people out there:
Rumours are swirling in Moscow that a number of former generals and KGB officials are preparing to oust Russia’s president Vladimir Putin and plan to end the war in Ukraine, which is increasingly seen across Russia as a strategic mistake.
https://twitter.com/Ohra_aho/status/1521464911515332608
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It's rumoured Putin is about to go under the knife. If he is having an op, I guess it would be a good moment to try and overthrow him.
That said there are also rumours that the Russian top brass is dissatisfied that they aren't going in hard enough. Withdrawing from Kyiv being seen as a mistake. So, careful what you wish for, I guess.
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Let's see if Putin has a purge of them before they can act.
Maybe it would go down in history as the Night of the Long Tables.
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It's rumoured Putin is about to go under the knife. If he is having an op, I guess it would be a good moment to try and overthrow him.
That said there are also rumours that the Russian top brass is dissatisfied that they aren't going in hard enough. Withdrawing from Kyiv being seen as a mistake. So, careful what you wish for, I guess.
One surgeon could be a hero
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Possibly the most surreal line I've ever seen in a media article here.
https://www.cityam.com/kremlin-on-high-alert-as-coup-rumours-grow-in-moscow-disgruntled-generals-join-fsb-looking-to-oust-putin-and-end-ukraine-war/
Final line. "When approached by city.am (about the imminence of a coup) no-one at the Kremlin replied."
I wonder if the South Yorkshire Times would have any luck if they phoned Moscow 0001 and asked for Putin's opinions on Escalate to De-escalate?
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Four options then:
1) Nothing at all happpens. It's paper talk
2) Thrusting young wannabe's manoeuvre to replace the seen as dangerous leaders below Putin in return for Putin's tacit support now and patronage in future
3) Putin runs a 21st century version of a Stalinist purge
4) Putin gets pushed out one way or another. If I was a betting man, and if he does have an operation, the odds on him surviving it wouldn't be that high
Take your pick. If I had to choose I think I'd go for option 3. But that isn't based on anything more than what we all know about Putin's character now. The politics of it is clearly just as important though.
BobG
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I'd have thought the same thing 2 months back Bob. But that was before Putin made the biggest blunder if his whole career.
His entire approach until know has been to measure up his enemy, understand his weaknesses, prepare a massive knock out blow and destroy him.
He did it against oligarchs like Berazovski and Khordakovski.
He did it against Chechnia. He did it against Georgia. And Syria.
This time, he's f**ked up. He's totally misjudged the power of his opponent.
That now immediately shows that he's not infallible.
What he is, is a bully, who, every time he smashed someone in the face, scared everyone else into not even thinking of rebelling. And therefore being easier to pick off.
But as with all bullies, what's needed is for the cowed opponents to get the balls to stand up to him and overpower him.
2 months ago, I could not see that happening. Now, I suspect there are powerful subordinates who are fancying their chances of doing him in.
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The West was We were too slow to act over Russian aggression in Ukraine, Boris Johnson has told Ukrainian MPs.
Addressing the Ukrainian parliament via video link, he said Ukraine's allies "cannot make the same mistake" as they did over the 2014 Crimea invasion.
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The West was We were too slow to act over Russian aggression in Ukraine, Boris Johnson has told Ukrainian MPs.
Addressing the Ukrainian parliament via video link, he said Ukraine's allies "cannot make the same mistake" as they did over the 2014 Crimea invasion.
That tired "invaded Crimea" line keeps getting trotted out, even more than the "annexed Crimea".
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I just don't get it BRR. Why someone on the Left would take the side of a fascist, ethno-nationalist imperialist.
By the way. The attack on Mariupol that you shrugged off as what happens in war. The civillian deaths that you blamed on Ukraine. Have you seen the AP investigation into the theatre bombing? 1000 people using the cellars as an air raid shelter. No indication of any offensive Ukraine military stationed in the building. Russia's artillery attack killed 600 civilians.
That's what Russia is. But you cannot bring yourself to unequivocally condemn their bestiality.
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Please quit this left/right thing, its so 20th century :lol: You'd rather me take the side of establishment imperialists like the EU, NATO, and the Holy American Empire. They're all nasty gangsters. Yes, Putin and that empire too. But quit tjis good v evil, right v left. You're srarting to sound like Ronald Regan - will it be the evil Klingons next?
Mariupol - how many civilians killed by Ukrainians? How many civilians used by Ukrainians as human shields? Your one sided take on all this is bizarre.
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I always used to wonder who the people were who made excuses for Stalin and Mao killing tens of millions. Now I know. Just pitiful.
I'll agree with you on one thing though. The separation between the far left and far right had evaporated. It's grimly fascinating to see how many erstwhile communists have cropped up on the far right during this century. There's one in the Kremlin for a start.
And just don't even try this disgusting bothsidesism stuff about Mariupol. Russia CHOSE this war. They CHOSE to indiscriminately attack residential areas. There is one side to blame. But you cannot find it in yourself to do so unequivocally. So you implicitly give a pass to Putin's slaughter.
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And who the hell said this was about good Vs evil? It's about flawed Vs evil. And you will not make a stand against the evil side.
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Read this.
https://apnews.com/article/Russia-ukraine-war-mariupol-theater-c321a196fbd568899841b506afcac7a1
Read every word. Then look in the mirror and try telling yourself that Putin's regime is not truly evil.
I was wrong in giving them the out that the Mariupol theatre attack was an indiscriminate artillery attack.
It wasn't.
It was a targeted air strike.
Against a targets that had "Children" written in 10 foot high letters on the ground outside it.
Utter f**king scum.
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So youre on the side of flawed?
I'll make any judgements when full detaiks become apparent. I'm far from being supportive of anyone pulling tbe first trigger. But unlike you BST, I don't give a one sided commentary when full details aren't yet available, and when there are two sides playing the eternal pawn of Ukraine, both being evil and self interested, both committing attrocities.
Did you chose to be against the invasion of Iraq before or after it happened? Same old western propaganda gping on then funnily enough.
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BRR
1) I was against the invasion of Iraq before it started. Why do you ask?
2) I fundamentally disagree that you have to suspend moral judgement in the heat of war. That's a cop out. The bombing of the Mariupol theatre (and in fact the consistent policy of Putin of razing to the ground any city that puts up opposition to Russian war aims) is a war crime, regardless of any equivalences you might hope to find on the other side. Which brings us to...
3)Do you honestly think that if Ukrainian forces had been guilty of flattening a Russian city and deliberately targeting civilian shelters, the Russian authorities would have played it down and said "wait till we know all the facts"? It would take a special naivete to believe that would happen. And yet there have been no instances of reports of Ukraine being responsible for anything remotely on the scale of the Mariupol atrocities. Draw your own conclusions.
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There are not two sides both committing atrocities in Ukraine!!!
Only one side has invaded Ukraine and is committing atrocities against CIVILIANS. One side lives there and the other has invaded it in an attempt to destroy.
After the war if Ukraine wins, any atrocities commited by their troops against Russian soldiers will be investigated and if enough evidence is found those guilty will be tried at The Hague.
After the War if Russia wins, any former Ukranian soldier/politician/government employee will be executed. Any allegation of Russian war crimes will be ignored.
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The burning of the building in Kiev murdering many anti coup supporters is one clear example you know of and choose to gloss over.
I hold back on judgement overall because it does seem clear this goes both ways on one level. Tho I agree egs like the theatre in Mariupol appear v bad, and i condem it even if just careless. Were there Ukraine forces inside? Did the Russians think there were?
And there is undoubtedly the use of civilians as shields by Ukraine, notably still in the steelworks. That was deliberate.
Shelling civilians in the Donbas by Ukraine appears clear, all the way from 2014 to present.
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There are not two sides both committing atrocities in Ukraine!!!
Only one side has invaded Ukraine and is committing atrocities against CIVILIANS. One side lives there and the other has invaded it in an attempt to destroy.
After the war if Ukraine wins, any atrocities commited by their troops against Russian soldiers will be investigated and if enough evidence is found those guilty will be tried at The Hague.
After the War if Russia wins, any former Ukranian soldier/politician/government employee will be executed. Any allegation of Russian war crimes will be ignored.
See above. And no they are v v unlikely to execute all opposition, not least because they won't occupy all of Ukraine, and probably never intended to do more than take the areas they currently hold plus all Donbas and maybe across to Odessa etc.
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BRR
1) I was against the invasion of Iraq before it started. Why do you ask?
Because you consistently take one side here, i wondered how that sat in a different conflict, that's all.
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There are not two sides both committing atrocities in Ukraine!!!
Only one side has invaded Ukraine and is committing atrocities against CIVILIANS. One side lives there and the other has invaded it in an attempt to destroy.
After the war if Ukraine wins, any atrocities commited by their troops against Russian soldiers will be investigated and if enough evidence is found those guilty will be tried at The Hague.
After the War if Russia wins, any former Ukranian soldier/politician/government employee will be executed. Any allegation of Russian war crimes will be ignored.
See above. And no they are v v unlikely to execute all opposition, not least because they won't occupy all of Ukraine, and probably never intended to do more than take the areas they currently hold plus all Donbas and maybe across to Odessa etc.
The past 100 years of Russian history and the excessive brutality of Putin's rule towards anyone, anywhere who opposes him says you are wrong.
I suggest you read Bill Browder's books, thats what Putin does.
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BRR
1) I was against the invasion of Iraq before it started. Why do you ask?
Because you consistently take one side here, i wondered how that sat in a different conflict, that's all.
Yeah. I constantly took one side in that invasion too. I do try to be consistent on these things. I am very much against imperialist aggression. Wherever it comes from.
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BRR, I think on this one you have to accept that when a country is invaded or has an internal ethnic power struggle that there will be recriminations in any action that is taken to protect ones homeland, this as others have said will be looked into in the cold light of day and judged appropriately.
The bigger picture is that Putin instigated this conflict following on from his deeds in Crimea, in this case the Ukrainians have only reacted to this outright genocide from The Russians. This needed to be stood up to ,any other allegations will be settled after this conflict. Be sure, this is one war that this Psychotic Lunatic will not be allowed to parade as an outright victory. For the sake of us all.
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Putin's new flagship Admiral Makarov is reportedly on fire after being hit by a Neptune missile off the coast of Snake Island, Ukrainian officials are claiming.
He won't like that.
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Russian frigate Admiral Makarov
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_frigate_Admiral_Makarov
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https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/breaking-russias-admiral-makarov-warship-26889015
The Mirror has some pictures.
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BRR, I think on this one you have to accept that when a country is invaded or has an internal ethnic power struggle that there will be recriminations in any action that is taken to protect ones homeland, this as others have said will be looked into in the cold light of day and judged appropriately.
The bigger picture is that Putin instigated this conflict following on from his deeds in Crimea, in this case the Ukrainians have only reacted to this outright genocide from The Russians. This needed to be stood up to ,any other allegations will be settled after this conflict. Be sure, this is one war that this Psychotic Lunatic will not be allowed to parade as an outright victory. For the sake of us all.
"deeds in Crimea" - are you talking annexation, invasion, free vote of mainly self declared Russians resulting in a 90%+ decision to leave Ukraine after a coup displacing the previously elected president with a following murderous rampage against ehtnic Russians in the country, or Russians committing genocide?
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BRR
1) I was against the invasion of Iraq before it started. Why do you ask?
Because you consistently take one side here, i wondered how that sat in a different conflict, that's all.
Yeah. I constantly took one side in that invasion too. I do try to be consistent on these things. I am very much against imperialist aggression. Wherever it comes from.
Though taking one side can mean bias.
Are you saying the decades of pressure and interference from the west, including instigating violence and murder, that lead up to the Russian imperialist agression, was not imperialist?
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BRR
Which side started the violence in 2014, by firing on peaceful demonstrators. If you insist on following Mariupol back to an Original Sin, answer that one.
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https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/breaking-russias-admiral-makarov-warship-26889015
The Mirror has some pictures.
This could or could not be the ship on fire
https://twitter.com/Fireblade577/status/1522580864583958528
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BRR, I think on this one you have to accept that when a country is invaded or has an internal ethnic power struggle that there will be recriminations in any action that is taken to protect ones homeland, this as others have said will be looked into in the cold light of day and judged appropriately.
The bigger picture is that Putin instigated this conflict following on from his deeds in Crimea, in this case the Ukrainians have only reacted to this outright genocide from The Russians. This needed to be stood up to ,any other allegations will be settled after this conflict. Be sure, this is one war that this Psychotic Lunatic will not be allowed to parade as an outright victory. For the sake of us all.
"deeds in Crimea" - are you talking annexation, invasion, free vote of mainly self declared Russians resulting in a 90%+ decision to leave Ukraine after a coup displacing the previously elected president with a following murderous rampage against ehtnic Russians in the country, or Russians committing genocide?
BRR, I think on this one you have to accept that when a country is invaded or has an internal ethnic power struggle that there will be recriminations in any action that is taken to protect ones homeland, this as others have said will be looked into in the cold light of day and judged appropriately.
The bigger picture is that Putin instigated this conflict following on from his deeds in Crimea, in this case the Ukrainians have only reacted to this outright genocide from The Russians. This needed to be stood up to ,any other allegations will be settled after this conflict. Be sure, this is one war that this Psychotic Lunatic will not be allowed to parade as an outright victory. For the sake of us all.
"deeds in Crimea" - are you talking annexation, invasion, free vote of mainly self declared Russians resulting in a 90%+ decision to leave Ukraine after a coup displacing the previously elected president with a following murderous rampage against ehtnic Russians in the country, or Russians committing genocide?
Regardless of what you say this was part of an independent country and what happened was not for Russia to decide either way.
If the rest of the world stand for this type of internal agitation followed by forcing an unconstitutional vote on another countries territory then prepare for a war who's consequences would far beyond the the current understanding of all.
In effect this is why the world will not stand idly by and allow this to become the status quo, Putin will not be allowed to express any sort of a victory.
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BRR
Which side started the violence in 2014, by firing on peaceful demonstrators. If you insist on following Mariupol back to an Original Sin, answer that one.
And there you are telling me how it haooened as if you're a BBC reporter. They were not peaceful demonstrators. Who gave the instructions to use live rounds is debateable though v likely instructions given by pro yankee to incite the situation.
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I give up.
Forces under the control of the Russian-Ukraine President opened fire on peaceful demonstrators. And it's the Americans to blame.
It's like arguing with a Christian fundamentalist. Doesn't matter what argument you come up with, it's always the will of God or America.
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BRR
Which side started the violence in 2014, by firing on peaceful demonstrators. If you insist on following Mariupol back to an Original Sin, answer that one.
And there you are telling me how it haooened as if you're a BBC reporter. They were not peaceful demonstrators. Who gave the instructions to use live rounds is debateable though v likely instructions given by pro yankee to incite the situation.
There has been lots of shit written on this thread, but the last sentence
“Who gave the instructions to use live rounds is debateable though v likely instructions given by pro yankee to incite the situation. “
Is up there with with the best/worst of them, it is absolutely laughable
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Danumdon - its a ahame the United States has interferred so much in the internal processes of the Ukraine. And their purpose was to stir up tje mess that we are seeing. Tjey are as sick as or worse than Russia.
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I give up.
Forces under the control of the Russian-Ukraine President opened fire on peaceful demonstrators. And it's the Americans to blame.
It's like arguing with a Christian fundamentalist. Doesn't matter what argument you come up with, it's always the will of God or America.
Oh come on, you know there were agitators well established within, if not organising the pro EU demonstrators. The head of the police, who had the call on whether to fire on demonstrators in an extreme situation, did not give that instruction. It appears arguable as to where that came from. But sure, go along with a one sided pro US agenda if you like. Just don't be pretending or be deluded that there was not very heavy agitation spurring on the violence.
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You will be telling us the Cuban Revolution and 1917 Russian Revolution were coups next BRR.
Or is it an overthrow of a vicious, repressive regime by local people that you like = revolution. An overthrow of a vicious, repressive regime by local people that you dont like - coup?
Russia has intereferred in Ukraine ever since Putin came to power - because he doesnt think Ukraine should exist. His troops carrying out his orders under his invasion have committed multiple atrocities on thousands of Ukranian civilians. No Ukranian soldier has been on Russian soil.
You are excusing a fascist dictator and I am afraid on the wrong side of history here.
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My grandad who was the finest socialist and the smartest man I ever knew once told me, "Never argue with Jehovah's Witnesses or The Far Left."
I'm remembering why now, after engaging with BRR.
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Danumdon - its a ahame the United States has interferred so much in the internal processes of the Ukraine. And their purpose was to stir up tje mess that we are seeing. Tjey are as sick as or worse than Russia.
OK, lets get this right, so you believe that internal machinations in the Ukraine has required the Russians to invade an independent country, annex parts of it after holding unconstitutional referendums, kill countless thousands of none combatant old people,women and children, physically wipe out a great many towns and villages of every habitual building or service, managed to tamper with a nuclear disaster zone to the extent that radiation levels reached higher then they were post the original meltdown,pour in thousands more young and conscript personnel to meet their grisly ends in the burnt out remains of armored vehicles and tanks and generally threaten a vast swave of northern and eastern Europe of unimaginable horrors if they so much as mention the word NATO,.
Finally we have the individual himself, Putin the cancer riddled despot, who sits at his ridicules oversized table, scheming and yearning for years for a greater USSR again without a care or passing thought for all the millions of people in countless countries he has either intimidated, threatened, maimed or killed during his reign as the despotic and deranged one state, all time leader of this dysfunctional country.
And YOU want to blame the USA and the free west for all of this.
Nutter.
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''Ukrainian government claims to have destroyed another Russian ship
The Ukrainian government has said that it has destroyed another Russian ship.
The ministry of defence claimed that Ukrainian Bayraktar TB2 had hit the landing craft of the Serna project, tweeting: “The traditional parade of the Russian Black Sea fleet on May 9 this year will be held near Snake Island - at the bottom of the sea.”''
the Guardian live
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You will be telling us the Cuban Revolution and 1917 Russian Revolution were coups next BRR.
Or is it an overthrow of a vicious, repressive regime by local people that you like = revolution. An overthrow of a vicious, repressive regime by local people that you dont like - coup?
Russia has intereferred in Ukraine ever since Putin came to power - because he doesnt think Ukraine should exist. His troops carrying out his orders under his invasion have committed multiple atrocities on thousands of Ukranian civilians. No Ukranian soldier has been on Russian soil.
You are excusing a fascist dictator and I am afraid on the wrong side of history here.
Are you saying there wasn't a sustained NATO, EU, USA interference in the running of the Ukraine prior to 2014? Are you saying there was no collusion especially between US and right wing extremists prior to then, and onwards?
The UKraine always has been split, there is a stong Russian pressence there, more in the east obvioulsy. Till the west Ukraine decided to overthrow the government because it wasn't playing to their side - ie joining the EU, these two groups mainly got on. Following that undemocratic action, the western side came down hard on the eastern side's objection to being pushed around. The killings were significant.
I could go on. There are two sides to this, very clearly so. You and most others here regurgitate the BBC. The BBC is explicitly a pro UK establishment media outlet, always has been, always will be. Of course you're not seeing a balance of views there. Likewise for most other media with their funding from the establishment either via taxes or private investment. Regurgitating such sources puts you on the establishment side of history, enjoy.
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My grandad who was the finest socialist and the smartest man I ever knew once told me, "Never argue with Jehovah's Witnesses or The Far Left."
I'm remembering why now, after engaging with BRR.
I'm not a Jehova, nor "far left" whatever that means in your black and white, monochrome world.
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Danumdon - its a ahame the United States has interferred so much in the internal processes of the Ukraine. And their purpose was to stir up tje mess that we are seeing. Tjey are as sick as or worse than Russia.
OK, lets get this right, so you believe that internal machinations in the Ukraine has required the Russians to invade an independent country, annex parts of it after holding unconstitutional referendums, kill countless thousands of none combatant old people,women and children, physically wipe out a great many towns and villages of every habitual building or service, managed to tamper with a nuclear disaster zone to the extent that radiation levels reached higher then they were post the original meltdown,pour in thousands more young and conscript personnel to meet their grisly ends in the burnt out remains of armored vehicles and tanks and generally threaten a vast swave of northern and eastern Europe of unimaginable horrors if they so much as mention the word NATO,.
Finally we have the individual himself, Putin the cancer riddled despot, who sits at his ridicules oversized table, scheming and yearning for years for a greater USSR again without a care or passing thought for all the millions of people in countless countries he has either intimidated, threatened, maimed or killed during his reign as the despotic and deranged one state, all time leader of this dysfunctional country.
And YOU want to blame the USA and the free west for all of this.
Nutter.
Following 2014 when there was an undemocratic taking down of government by the pro EU groups in Ukraine, there was some Russian action, arguably undemocratic. Howecver, are you saying you approve of the undemocratic action of the pro EU groups that caused this?
And do you think the US had nothing whatsoever to do with the regime change in the Ukraine? Strange that coz they have a wonderfully rich history of doing that all over the world. There's almost no country in the whole America's where they haven't instigated regime change, and in the process caused the deaths of millions as they put in place a parade of fascist leaders. But you know that.
I am not supporting Putin, said many times, but I also don't buy the one sided propoganda view you do. It's so bleedin obvious you're being lied to.
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For someone who claims to countering the 'one-sided propoganda' you have yet to detail, or condem, the Russian interference in Ukraine ever since Putin came to power.
For someone who claims to be a socialist you appear to have a dismisive attitude to people rising up against a repressive government they dont like in their country.
You might think you are giving 'balance' but there is no balance to give when only one side is murdering civilians. All you are doing is legitimising fasicism. Putin doesn't care if you support him or not. What he wants you to do is attack and de-legitimise his enemies so he can crush them.
I don't watch the BBC much, (the odd music programme, history doc & the rugby this am and wish I hadn't). But I can give you a list of all the people in Ukraine who I follow on twitter reporting the situation there if you like. You wont enjoy them tho, they tell the facts of what Putin is doing to there.
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Putin is a complete and utter whopper. Perhaps the biggest global whopper of the 21st century. Invading Ukraine will be his ultimate demise.
Ukraine however are not without their whoppers. Take the Azov Regiment for example. Maybe it’s these Nazis that Putin wants to wipe out.
There will be members of this militia that are more than capable of war crimes. Some will have no regard for the Geneva Convention.
We will never hear of it though in our MSM, as they are the perceived good guys.
At the beginning of March One of the Azov regt commanders put out a Facebook post stating that any captured Russian soldiers would be “cut up like pigs”
Ukrainian right wing social media is full of images of dead Russians with mocking, joking remarks.
Russia invaded Ukraine.
Russian troops are committing war crimes.
Ukrainian troops will be doing the same.
That’s what happens in war.
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I'd like to bet the Russians are commiting far more war crimes. They excuse it as fierce behaviour.
BRR, I a am stunned. Stunned. At how you can excuse Russian aggression as you do.
Faced with the choice of Russian oppression or Ameeican oppression, which would you choose?
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BRR
Which side started the violence in 2014, by firing on peaceful demonstrators. If you insist on following Mariupol back to an Original Sin, answer that one.
And there you are telling me how it haooened as if you're a BBC reporter. They were not peaceful demonstrators. Who gave the instructions to use live rounds is debateable though v likely instructions given by pro yankee to incite the situation.
There has been lots of shit written on this thread, but the last sentence
“Who gave the instructions to use live rounds is debateable though v likely instructions given by pro yankee to incite the situation. “
Is up there with with the best/worst of them, it is absolutely laughable
You know different?
That there was a variety of western involvement before and during the demonstrations is clear enough, or at the very least most probable no matter what your consumption of news is. That there was ultra right wing involvement in the the demos, in the organisation of the demos is well known. There are also many with strong pro western, vehement anti Russian views within the police and those directing the police. Not very unlikely someone might give the order to shoot, particularly as the ultra right wing activists had targetted the police, and were shooting at the police.
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I'd like to bet the Russians are commiting far more war crimes. They excuse it as fierce behaviour.
BRR, I a am stunned. Stunned. At how you can excuse Russian aggression as you do.
Faced with the choice of Russian oppression or Ameeican oppression, which would you choose?
What is the excuse used by Ukraine forces for murdering civilians post 2014? Their excuse for using human shields?
That choice of Russian v US oppression - how about stepping away from the dogma that you are being fed and choose neither? So much of political manipulation comes in the guise of two choices. You don't have to play that game. Think for yourself.
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I'd like to bet the Russians are commiting far more war crimes. They excuse it as fierce behaviour.
BRR, I a am stunned. Stunned. At how you can excuse Russian aggression as you do.
Faced with the choice of Russian oppression or Ameeican oppression, which would you choose?
What is the excuse used by Ukraine forces for murdering civilians post 2014? Their excuse for using human shields?
That choice of Russian v US oppression - how about stepping away from the dogma that you are being fed and choose neither? So much of political manipulation comes in the guise of two choices. You don't have to play that game. Think for yourself.
It really is only two choices. Anglo style democracy, as flawed as that is or totalitarianism.
I know which I'd go for
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For someone who claims to countering the 'one-sided propoganda' you have yet to detail, or condem, the Russian interference in Ukraine ever since Putin came to power.
For someone who claims to be a socialist you appear to have a dismisive attitude to people rising up against a repressive government they dont like in their country.
You might think you are giving 'balance' but there is no balance to give when only one side is murdering civilians. All you are doing is legitimising fasicism. Putin doesn't care if you support him or not. What he wants you to do is attack and de-legitimise his enemies so he can crush them.
I don't watch the BBC much, (the odd music programme, history doc & the rugby this am and wish I hadn't). But I can give you a list of all the people in Ukraine who I follow on twitter reporting the situation there if you like. You wont enjoy them tho, they tell the facts of what Putin is doing to there.
Ukraine was and is deivided re wanting Western rule. It was not an overwhelming uprising, that's a populist myth if ever there was one. Kiev is in the western side and tends to reflect the pro western support. A very different story in the east, and almost overwhelmingly opposite in Crimea.
Ukraine has been targetting and murdering civilians since 2014 - in many incidences across the county, most notably in the Donbass, and still today. Even during the "revolution" there were many who were opposing the desire for EU membership burnt alive in the trade union building in Kiev. Do you think the Azov Brigade weren't using human shields?
You use the fascist term in regards to Putin. I think that's simplistic but most of all repeating rhetoric against him. I think he's icy cold, calculating, almost unhuman, but then many leaders are similar - they're all gangsters, and mainly nasty and dishonest.
On the pro EU side of the Ukraine there are people who are truly fascist and openly Nazi. That's not just the old Azov Brigade but some people in their parliament and people in various positions of power. That's not t o excuse Putin, but it is to make clear this is not a two dimentional Reaganesque good v evil as some like to couch it. Lot's of bad guys on both sides. But all the propoganda, the popular down the pub view, the establishment, the economic/coporate/banking, the military interests are all obviously pumping out as much to slag off one side only. Why? Because they profit from a Ukraine in NATO and in the EU - not those down the pub of course, they lose out whichever way as the government takes their money to give to the corporations to spend on arms killing people. It's sick, all of it, not goodies in there at all.
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BRR
Do you not think some aspects of Putin's rule are plainly fascistic?
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I'd like to bet the Russians are commiting far more war crimes. They excuse it as fierce behaviour.
BRR, I a am stunned. Stunned. At how you can excuse Russian aggression as you do.
Faced with the choice of Russian oppression or Ameeican oppression, which would you choose?
What is the excuse used by Ukraine forces for murdering civilians post 2014? Their excuse for using human shields?
That choice of Russian v US oppression - how about stepping away from the dogma that you are being fed and choose neither? So much of political manipulation comes in the guise of two choices. You don't have to play that game. Think for yourself.
It really is only two choices. Anglo style democracy, as flawed as that is or totalitarianism.
I know which I'd go for
No, not even now it isn't, though it's been made far harder as the two powers have walked the people of Ukraine into abject poverty - except for the oligarchs that will rise up on both sides. But the powers that be want you to see only that choice. Who wins? They do. Russians and western bankers and corporate institutions. They both milk the Ukraine if you support the view that it's "us or them", "left v right", "Russia or the West".
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BRR
Do you not think some aspects of Putin's rule are plainly fascistic?
Yes.
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According to intercepts of Russian soldiers, they have been stunned at the wealth they have found in Ukraine. Which is why they have been so busy nicking stuff.
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BRR
Do you not think some aspects of Putin's rule are plainly fascistic?
Yes.
Right which is better, an undemocratic Russian fascist or a Ukrainian democratic fascist?
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BRR
Do you not think some aspects of Putin's rule are plainly fascistic?
Yes.
Right which is better, an undemocratic Russian fascist or a Ukrainian democratic fascist?
A series of Ukrainian puppets with strings pulled by all the NATO, corporate, EU, bankers, who is there to milk the Ukranian people? Like I said, gangsters all of them. Putin may be more obvious, the West may be more insidious. Ukraine would do well to tell them all to feck off and run its country for its people without half the wealth disappearing to whatever external protection racket.
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BRR
Do you not think some aspects of Putin's rule are plainly fascistic?
Yes.
Right which is better, an undemocratic Russian fascist or a Ukrainian democratic fascist?
A series of Ukrainian puppets with strings pulled by all the NATO, corporate, EU, bankers, who is there to milk the Ukranian people? Like I said, gangsters all of them. Putin may be more obvious, the West may be more insidious. Ukraine would do well to tell them all to feck off and run its country for its people without half the wealth disappearing to whatever external protection racket.
You really believe that?
Most Ukrainians want to be a part of the EU. They want to join NATO
Russian speakers in the East are fighting and resisting with everything they have against Russian repression.
Honestly, I cannot understand your point of view.
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BRR.
Remind me how Ukraine is supposed to tell Putin to f**k off?
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BRR.
Remind me how Ukraine is supposed to tell Putin to f**k off?
Could have been better handled without NATO/EU making their claim. Now, a bit messed up but the only way is oroper negotiation - the West's puppet isn't really best placed for that.
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BRR
Do you not think some aspects of Putin's rule are plainly fascistic?
Yes.
Right which is better, an undemocratic Russian fascist or a Ukrainian democratic fascist?
A series of Ukrainian puppets with strings pulled by all the NATO, corporate, EU, bankers, who is there to milk the Ukranian people? Like I said, gangsters all of them. Putin may be more obvious, the West may be more insidious. Ukraine would do well to tell them all to feck off and run its country for its people without half the wealth disappearing to whatever external protection racket.
You really believe that?
Most Ukrainians want to be a part of the EU. They want to join NATO
Russian speakers in the East are fighting and resisting with everything they have against Russian repression.
Honestly, I cannot understand your point of view.
Where do you get the clear majority of Ukraine wanted in with the EU?
Did you miss the Ukraine forces killing Russian speakers in the East? It's complex, but your story of Russian speakers being against Russia is a bit simplistic, at least not wholly true, and possibly way wrong.
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BRR.
Remind me how Ukraine is supposed to tell Putin to f**k off?
Could have been better handled without NATO/EU making their claim. Now, a bit messed up but the only way is oroper negotiation - the West's puppet isn't really best placed for that.
Aye, I'm sure if the West weren't involved, Putin would just let Ukraine do as it pleased.
Jeez. Did you hear that speech by Putin where he said it is historically part of Russia and has no claim to exist as an independent country?
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They thought he might openly declare war today.
No mention of that in his speech.
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BRR.
Remind me how Ukraine is supposed to tell Putin to f**k off?
Could have been better handled without NATO/EU making their claim. Now, a bit messed up but the only way is oroper negotiation - the West's puppet isn't really best placed for that.
Aye, I'm sure if the West weren't involved, Putin would just let Ukraine do as it pleased.
Jeez. Did you hear that speech by Putin where he said it is historically part of Russia and has no claim to exist as an independent country?
The scary thing is most Russians believe what he tells them.
The ones that don’t believe him are too scared to do anything about it.
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BRR.
Remind me how Ukraine is supposed to tell Putin to f**k off?
Could have been better handled without NATO/EU making their claim. Now, a bit messed up but the only way is oroper negotiation - the West's puppet isn't really best placed for that.
Aye, I'm sure if the West weren't involved, Putin would just let Ukraine do as it pleased.
Jeez. Did you hear that speech by Putin where he said it is historically part of Russia and has no claim to exist as an independent country?
The scary thing is most Russians believe what he tells them.
The ones that don’t believe him are too scared to do anything about it.
To be fair camps ppl in this country believe whatever the media says so why wouldn’t Russians?
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BRR.
Remind me how Ukraine is supposed to tell Putin to f**k off?
Could have been better handled without NATO/EU making their claim. Now, a bit messed up but the only way is oroper negotiation - the West's puppet isn't really best placed for that.
Aye, I'm sure if the West weren't involved, Putin would just let Ukraine do as it pleased.
Jeez. Did you hear that speech by Putin where he said it is historically part of Russia and has no claim to exist as an independent country?
The scary thing is most Russians believe what he tells them.
The ones that don’t believe him are too scared to do anything about it.
To be fair camps ppl in this country believe whatever the media says so why wouldn’t Russians?
The scariest thing is that some people in this country believe what Putin is telling them.
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BRR.
Remind me how Ukraine is supposed to tell Putin to f**k off?
Could have been better handled without NATO/EU making their claim. Now, a bit messed up but the only way is oroper negotiation - the West's puppet isn't really best placed for that.
Aye, I'm sure if the West weren't involved, Putin would just let Ukraine do as it pleased.
Jeez. Did you hear that speech by Putin where he said it is historically part of Russia and has no claim to exist as an independent country?
The scary thing is most Russians believe what he tells them.
The ones that don’t believe him are too scared to do anything about it.
To be fair camps ppl in this country believe whatever the media says so why wouldn’t Russians?
The scariest thing is that some people in this country believe what Putin is telling them.
Yeah that is scary
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I get the impression that he's looking for some sort of get out without having to clime down too much. Are the West willing to give him this?
I would say lets give him the communique that sounds like its making all the right noises for his political consumption but tie the bas**@d up in th small print that makes the pips squeak for the foreseeable.
Talk quietly but wield the biggest stick.
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The get out for Putin is the complete cessation of conflict in Eastern Ukraine.
Let him have it. For now. Make in look like a victory for him.
Protect what is left of Ukraine.
Put a UN ceasefire line in like they have in Cyprus.
Stop the killing.
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The get out for Putin is the complete cessation of conflict in Eastern Ukraine.
Let him have it. For now. Make in look like a victory for him.
Protect what is left of Ukraine.
Put a UN ceasefire line in like they have in Cyprus.
Stop the killing.
This sound a bit like a Northern Ireland agreement but on steroids, IF they have the Dombass as a buffer zone but still under the jurisdiction of the Ukraine i doubt Putin would go for it, If it was to be administered separately then it ends up as a Crimea mark 2.
Would this be acceptable to Zelenskyy ?
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Changing the subject a tad, has anyone heard any more about the latest ship the Ukrainians were alleged to have Neptuned?
BobG
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Changing the subject a tad, has anyone heard any more about the latest ship the Ukrainians were alleged to have Neptuned?
BobG
There's been nothing of the Makarov since the footage showing a large fire at the front of the vessel. It still had power then, so I wonder if they managed to get it under control and back to Sevastopol?
https://youtu.be/WTnbuVAaIX4
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Possibly a fake video earlier
https://twitter.com/CavasShips/status/1523674193375547393
https://twitter.com/sentdefender/status/1523142792058654721
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if anyone is interested, take a look at this site:
https://ffdmovements.blogspot.com/?m=1
It is a daily record of what flies into and out of RAF Fairford. It is reliable, and updated very regularly. As the airfield has been in Yank hands for decades, and has the longest runway in Europe I am told, it has always been the scene of a lot of USAAF activity. They bombed Libya and Iraq from here. They run U2 spy planes from here. B52's are regular visitors. B1B's sometimes. President Obama landed here on his last visit to the UK. A reight bloody convoy that was!
Anyway, if you're interested in the Ukraine, you'll be interested in what's going on here. I should have put up the link ages ago. My apologies. Brain dead I think....
BobG
PS Funny, but every plane I see take off these days swings round to the east.....
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The U2S from the 9th Recconnaisance Wing looks like it’s doing daily recce missions. Over Ukraine no doubt.
Detachment 4 of this unit has been based at Fairfield since 2019.
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WE had a AWACS plane flying over our end of town yesterday, when i told the Mrs what it was she thought we were getting ready for the apocalypse !!
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WE had a AWACS plane flying over our end of town yesterday, when i told the Mrs what it was she thought we were getting ready for the apocalypse !!
Runway calibration I think
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The get out for Putin is the complete cessation of conflict in Eastern Ukraine.
Let him have it. For now. Make in look like a victory for him.
Protect what is left of Ukraine.
Put a UN ceasefire line in like they have in Cyprus.
Stop the killing.
This sound a bit like a Northern Ireland agreement but on steroids, IF they have the Dombass as a buffer zone but still under the jurisdiction of the Ukraine i doubt Putin would go for it, If it was to be administered separately then it ends up as a Crimea mark 2.
Would this be acceptable to Zelenskyy ?
I doubt Zelensky has even a smidge of a say when it comes to finalising any deal.
Russia wont agree to anything less than what they currently hold, bar the north western edge. Though more than likely they'll be taking a bigger chunk in the east, a thicker slice of the south, plus over to Odessa. All that territory will be effectively integrated into Russia probably as states.
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WE had a AWACS plane flying over our end of town yesterday, when i told the Mrs what it was she thought we were getting ready for the apocalypse !!
She is going to be really worried on Sunday lunchtime then if she is anywhere around Hatfield.
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WE had a AWACS plane flying over our end of town yesterday, when i told the Mrs what it was she thought we were getting ready for the apocalypse !!
She is going to be really worried on Sunday lunchtime then if she is anywhere around Hatfield.
Do you know the exact flight path?
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WE had a AWACS plane flying over our end of town yesterday, when i told the Mrs what it was she thought we were getting ready for the apocalypse !!
She is going to be really worried on Sunday lunchtime then if she is anywhere around Hatfield.
Do you know the exact flight path?
No but I read that it will be over Hatfield some time between 12.30 and 1.20 but it is coming up from Lincolnshire so if it is going to fly over the church there is a good chance it will go straight over my house.
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WE had a AWACS plane flying over our end of town yesterday, when i told the Mrs what it was she thought we were getting ready for the apocalypse !!
She is going to be really worried on Sunday lunchtime then if she is anywhere around Hatfield.
Do you know the exact flight path?
No but I read that it will be over Hatfield some time between 12.30 and 1.20 but it is coming up from Lincolnshire so if it is going to fly over the church there is a good chance it will go straight over my house.
Depends which way they are going, I’m about a mile and a half North of Hatfield Church
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WE had a AWACS plane flying over our end of town yesterday, when i told the Mrs what it was she thought we were getting ready for the apocalypse !!
She is going to be really worried on Sunday lunchtime then if she is anywhere around Hatfield.
Do you know the exact flight path?
No but I read that it will be over Hatfield some time between 12.30 and 1.20 but it is coming up from Lincolnshire so if it is going to fly over the church there is a good chance it will go straight over my house.
Depends which way they are going, I’m about a mile and a half North of Hatfield Church
Yeah, I gather so. A Google search does say it goes over Hatfield but nothing more.
Maybe more info will be available nearer the time.
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WE had a AWACS plane flying over our end of town yesterday, when i told the Mrs what it was she thought we were getting ready for the apocalypse !!
She is going to be really worried on Sunday lunchtime then if she is anywhere around Hatfield.
So will i, she's supposed to be in charge of the barbecue 10 miles away!!
Is it another big, loud jet ?
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WE had a AWACS plane flying over our end of town yesterday, when i told the Mrs what it was she thought we were getting ready for the apocalypse !!
She is going to be really worried on Sunday lunchtime then if she is anywhere around Hatfield.
So will i, she's supposed to be in charge of the barbecue 10 miles away!!
Is it another big, loud jet ?
Haha, wives see everything though don’t they mate.
And no, it isn’t another jet, it is the Battle of Britain fly past.
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In May?? What are they doing?
BobG
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Bob, it’s something called Routes of Remembrance, commemorating 77 years since VE Day.
It is happening on weekends from 7th to 20th May at various locations.
I read today that the Spitfire will be flying at 250 feet.
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The mother of a Russian soldier killed in action said in response to Putins propaganda of protecting Russia from the west.
"All Putin is protecting is himself, his palaces and his girlfriends"
His empty words about those giving their lives for the motherland...
He just doesn't give a f*ck!
https://youtu.be/VM5nyGhBA1g
Then there's this Ukrainan Army press officer's take on Russia's Victory day. A slightly humorous swipe at the propaganda.
https://youtu.be/HyU_IV_hfUU
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[/quote]WE had a AWACS plane flying over our end of town yesterday, when i told the Mrs what it was she thought we were getting ready for the apocalypse !!
And today we had a sub hunter Poseidon out of Lossiemouth over flying Donny, didn’t realise that subs can get up the Don this far. But you live and learn
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Really interesting (although long) assessment of current state of play in Ukraine by a US defence analyist.
Well worth a read of it all but spoiler alert, Russians have used up their best equipment and best troops and are growing weaker. Ukraine has lost few troops and is getting better and better equipment from NATO (with more on its way) and getting stronger.
Russia has a maximum four weeks left to make gains before they will start being in serious trouble. At present they are stalemated - if not being pushed back.
https://twitter.com/BrynnTannehill/status/1524760462180683776
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Thank you Wilts. I'm sure this chap knows a helluva lot more about this stuff than I do. My mind, though, is still stuck in its mid to late 20th C time warp. How can the Russian behemoth not simply crush whatever it chooses to crusjh?!
Lol. It's a whole new world...
BobG
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Are the ruskies frightened of getting all the shiny new tanks used in the 'victory parade' scratched?
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I don't know whether it's propaganda, wishful thinking or confidence but Ukrainian forces believe they can retake Crimea.
At the rate of Russian attrition of ground forces, they believe they will run out of an effective means of advancing.
Of course, Russia still have long range missiles launched from land and sea but they can't occupy without sufficient land forces.
Even a Russian military analyst said recently that a general mobilisation wouldn't help without sufficient equipment and hardware to equip them nevermind the time to train them. Other than a few shiny modern rocket launchers, fighting vehicles, missiles, ships and aircraft, most of their stock is out of date junk.
That's what a corrupt system brings you. Putins being eaten by his own regime.
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There are question marks over how long Russia can keep up its bombardment with long range missles because a lot of its tech for these weapons is bought in from the EU. Who of course are no longer supplying.
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Just reading in the paper a report that says because Russia has not declared war, Russian soldiers by law still have a lot of civilian rights.
Because it's not a war, they can actually refuse to fight and expect very few sanctions. Apparently this is happening and it's frustrating the high command who cannot even send them to prison. I can only guess the reason this isn't more widespread is because there can't be too many young Russian soldiers who fully understand Russian law.
So there's a job for the Ukrainians. Find ways to get this information to front line Russian troops. Although, I suppose ultimately if successful it would result in Russia simply declaring war but in the short term it would put another spanner in the Russian works.
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Thanks RD, that begs the question why doesn't he just do it? is the mighty putin put off by the thought that 'his' people would revolt as his argument collapses?
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I have just found this ............
https://www.usnews.com/news/world-report/articles/2022-05-10/domestic-concerns-stopped-putin-from-declaring-war-on-ukraine-analysts
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Ref your point abput retaking the Crimea DBR (post 2131), if that happens, I imagine nobody would be surprised by a future revanchist Russia... That would not be good.
BobG
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Ref your point abput retaking the Crimea DBR (post 2131), if that happens, I imagine nobody would be surprised by a future revanchist Russia... That would not be good.
BobG
Revanchist - I had to google the meaning. So I’ve learnt a new word in 2 languages and not had breakfast yet!!
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Ha ha ha!!!
Nice one Mugnapper!
My knowledge comes from being a faux historian. It's a very useful word in that context.
BobG
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Thank you Wilts. I'm sure this chap knows a helluva lot more about this stuff than I do. My mind, though, is still stuck in its mid to late 20th C time warp. How can the Russian behemoth not simply crush whatever it chooses to crusjh?!
Lol. It's a whole new world...
BobG
Likewise I had expected a more dominant invasion, especially from the air superiority. I think there's many reasons why that didn't happen, possibly the main one being the wide use of lightweight anti tank missiles by Ukraine, that seriously changes things. And of course the involvement of NATO.
That expectation is probably the result of both Russian propaganda and that from the West which is at least partly pushed by the need to spend on military as it's a money making scheme for the rich and powerful. A frightened population backing their money going to the pockets of the corporations.
Someone mentioned the old stock of Russian equipment. Much of it was upgraded, significantly so, but doesn't seem up to the job, or just used poorly? I wonder how much there is an attitude of clearing out old stock even if upgraded. Not great for the tankers.
Interesting too how little news is out there about Ukraine losses and failings, not just on the BBC and such tripe, but generally.
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Ref your point abput retaking the Crimea DBR (post 2131), if that happens, I imagine nobody would be surprised by a future revanchist Russia... That would not be good.
BobG
Not just that but it seems the locals, a significant 2.5 million, would not be welcoming any Ukraine take over. Ukraine would be starting a long term terrorist/guerilla war and despite the help they'd be getting in terms of loans from the IMF etc, they can't afford that. Plus they'd be losing troops.
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More rumours today that Putin has cancer.
No question he looked very ill at the victory Day parade. Sat down with a blanket over his lap. Brezhnev used to stand all through the parade and he was barely alive.
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Just reading in the paper a report that says because Russia has not declared war, Russian soldiers by law still have a lot of civilian rights.
Because it's not a war, they can actually refuse to fight and expect very few sanctions. Apparently this is happening and it's frustrating the high command who cannot even send them to prison. I can only guess the reason this isn't more widespread is because there can't be too many young Russian soldiers who fully understand Russian law.
So there's a job for the Ukrainians. Find ways to get this information to front line Russian troops. Although, I suppose ultimately if successful it would result in Russia simply declaring war but in the short term it would put another spanner in the Russian works.
If you recall, quite early on, Putin had to reassure families their conscripted sons would not be sent into active conflict and cross the border into another country. It's against Russian law. It was a lie then and it's still a lie now.
Many of those conscripts who were sent to 'war' and have come to the end of their term, have walked away, despite being offered incentives to carry on fighting.
If I understand this right, it appears Russia are attempting to hide the number of soldiers including conscripts, killed in action for this reason and, to avoid paying out dependants pension and are listing them as 'missing in action'
Ukrainian authorities are storing and recording the identities of Russian soldiers and have offered to send them back but to date Russia has refused to accept them. So far, it appears to be only the professional soldiers bodies who are being repatriated.
If all this was to come out in the Russian media, it would expose Putins lie.
https://tass.com/politics/1418491
https://www.politico.eu/article/what-the-use-of-russia-conscripts-tells-us-about-the-war-in-ukraine/
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News item on tv tonight was about the young Russian soldier on trial for a war crime killing of an unarmed civilian.
The reporter said it is one of around 11,000 under investigation so far.
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Thank you Wilts. I'm sure this chap knows a helluva lot more about this stuff than I do. My mind, though, is still stuck in its mid to late 20th C time warp. How can the Russian behemoth not simply crush whatever it chooses to crusjh?!
Lol. It's a whole new world...
BobG
Likewise I had expected a more dominant invasion, especially from the air superiority. I think there's many reasons why that didn't happen, possibly the main one being the wide use of lightweight anti tank missiles by Ukraine, that seriously changes things. And of course the involvement of NATO.
That expectation is probably the result of both Russian propaganda and that from the West which is at least partly pushed by the need to spend on military as it's a money making scheme for the rich and powerful. A frightened population backing their money going to the pockets of the corporations.
Someone mentioned the old stock of Russian equipment. Much of it was upgraded, significantly so, but doesn't seem up to the job, or just used poorly? I wonder how much there is an attitude of clearing out old stock even if upgraded. Not great for the tankers.
Interesting too how little news is out there about Ukraine losses and failings, not just on the BBC and such tripe, but generally.
There will be a slew of books coming out before too long explaining/guessing on this I should think.
I suspect they will probably include things such as: poor logistical planning - over stretched supply lines and poor maintence of kit, lack of air superiority, stronger than expected resistance from the Ukranian Army and the classic - wrong time of year, stuck in the mud so forced to use the roads where they were a sitting target.
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Thank you Wilts. I'm sure this chap knows a helluva lot more about this stuff than I do. My mind, though, is still stuck in its mid to late 20th C time warp. How can the Russian behemoth not simply crush whatever it chooses to crusjh?!
Lol. It's a whole new world...
BobG
Likewise I had expected a more dominant invasion, especially from the air superiority. I think there's many reasons why that didn't happen, possibly the main one being the wide use of lightweight anti tank missiles by Ukraine, that seriously changes things. And of course the involvement of NATO.
That expectation is probably the result of both Russian propaganda and that from the West which is at least partly pushed by the need to spend on military as it's a money making scheme for the rich and powerful. A frightened population backing their money going to the pockets of the corporations.
Someone mentioned the old stock of Russian equipment. Much of it was upgraded, significantly so, but doesn't seem up to the job, or just used poorly? I wonder how much there is an attitude of clearing out old stock even if upgraded. Not great for the tankers.
Interesting too how little news is out there about Ukraine losses and failings, not just on the BBC and such tripe, but generally.
Just a pedantic point BRR, but it looks to me like a number of NATO nations have decided to provide differing support on a national basis. There will have been some exchanges and talk between them, but NATO as an organisation has not as far as I can see made an overarching assessment of what to send to Ukraine, and then led a meeting (Force Generation Conference) to coordinate and ask nations to meet those requirements.
There is a technical difference between NATO as an organisation leading everything, and some NATO nations getting together and doing things nationally.
For example a number of NATO nations formed an ad-hoc coalition for the Gulf War after NATO said no, but NATO led and orchestrated e.g. operations in Bosnia and Kosovo.
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Major general Kyrylo Budanov thinks Ukraine will have broken the back of the Russian invasion by the end of August.
He thinks the war will be done by the end of the year.
I hope he's right but I wonder how Russia will react if they find themselves in full retreat by the end of the summer?
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So the Russian bot explanation for the panicked retreat from Kyiv was that the whole Kyiv attack was a feint to distract Ukranian forces from the main event in the east.
I wonder what the excuse is going to be for what looks like turning into a rout at Kharkiv?
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Losing Kharkiv will be humiliating.
They were supposedly trying to link forces from there to Kherson and cut off the Ukrainian army in the East.
That's not going to happen now.
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More rumours today that Putin has cancer.
No question he looked very ill at the victory Day parade. Sat down with a blanket over his lap. Brezhnev used to stand all through the parade and he was barely alive.
My mam informed me this morning that one of those Russian 'olliocks' has said he's got blood cancer. All the Russian generals know he's poorly and going mad and will refuse to fire any nukes. So that's alright then. That's what her phone says anyway.
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''We have been fighting Russia for eight years and we can say that this highly publicised Russian power is a myth.
It is not as powerful as this. It is a horde of people with weapons.
Budanov said Russian forces attacking the north-eastern city of Kharkiv had been pushed back almost to the Russian border and that their much-reported failure to cross the Siverskyi Donets river several days ago had resulted in “heavy losses”.
I can confirm that they suffered heavy losses in manpower and armour and I can say that when the artillery strikes happened many of the crews abandoned their equipment.
He also claimed that Russian defeat in Ukraine would lead to the removal of Russian president Vladimir Putin and that a coup was already under way against him. “They are moving in this way and it is impossible to stop it,” he said. He provided no evidence to support the claim.
Furthermore, Putin was in a “very bad psychological and physical condition and he is very sick”. Rumours of Putin’s ill health have circulated recently but the Guardian has been unable to substantiate them''
Guardian
This is an extremely robust statement from Major general Kyrylo Budanov
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So the Russian bot explanation for the panicked retreat from Kyiv was that the whole Kyiv attack was a feint to distract Ukranian forces from the main event in the east.
I wonder what the excuse is going to be for what looks like turning into a rout at Kharkiv?
I think there's a difference between excuse and understanding. And then there's BBC propaganda. Take your pick.
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Thank you Wilts. I'm sure this chap knows a helluva lot more about this stuff than I do. My mind, though, is still stuck in its mid to late 20th C time warp. How can the Russian behemoth not simply crush whatever it chooses to crusjh?!
Lol. It's a whole new world...
BobG
Likewise I had expected a more dominant invasion, especially from the air superiority. I think there's many reasons why that didn't happen, possibly the main one being the wide use of lightweight anti tank missiles by Ukraine, that seriously changes things. And of course the involvement of NATO.
That expectation is probably the result of both Russian propaganda and that from the West which is at least partly pushed by the need to spend on military as it's a money making scheme for the rich and powerful. A frightened population backing their money going to the pockets of the corporations.
Someone mentioned the old stock of Russian equipment. Much of it was upgraded, significantly so, but doesn't seem up to the job, or just used poorly? I wonder how much there is an attitude of clearing out old stock even if upgraded. Not great for the tankers.
Interesting too how little news is out there about Ukraine losses and failings, not just on the BBC and such tripe, but generally.
Just a pedantic point BRR, but it looks to me like a number of NATO nations have decided to provide differing support on a national basis. There will have been some exchanges and talk between them, but NATO as an organisation has not as far as I can see made an overarching assessment of what to send to Ukraine, and then led a meeting (Force Generation Conference) to coordinate and ask nations to meet those requirements.
There is a technical difference between NATO as an organisation leading everything, and some NATO nations getting together and doing things nationally.
For example a number of NATO nations formed an ad-hoc coalition for the Gulf War after NATO said no, but NATO led and orchestrated e.g. operations in Bosnia and Kosovo.
Agreed, i was loosely using the NATO term for the oressure and influence of US and NATO constituents policy, actions, and engagement in Ukraine. I think we all know there is more to NATO than the official channels, and then there's the need for individual constituents to make a show of putting money to the cause, here sending training, equipment, intelligence, and munitions etc against the Russians.
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So the Russian bot explanation for the panicked retreat from Kyiv was that the whole Kyiv attack was a feint to distract Ukranian forces from the main event in the east.
I wonder what the excuse is going to be for what looks like turning into a rout at Kharkiv?
I think there's a difference between excuse and understanding. And then there's BBC propaganda. Take your pick.
BBC propaganda my arse.
The Russians are taking one hell of a beating. Poor young men being sent to slaughter, it's a bloody crime.
This whole war is nuts. Putin is nuts.
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Depressing how many purveyors of utter b*llocks convince themselves that those who profoundly disagree with them only get their information from the BBC.
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Two exceedingly interesting points for me on this page.
The absence of broadcast information referring to Ukrainian losses and Ukrainian foul ups can only be seen as prima facie evidence of manipulation of the news throughout the western world, and, the talk about Putin having cancer. If that is true it would definitely lessen the barriers around rhe Big Bad Button. Uncomfortable thought....
Actually, there's another interesting point. The suggestion that the power of the 'Russian behemoth' has maybe been exaggerated for decades and decades to justify all that spend on things military. President Eisenhower warned us all in 1958 or 1959 that the military-industrial complex possesses huge power. Could this be an example of that power in action? Good subject for a research project that.
BobG
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Two exceedingly interesting points for me on this page.
The absence of broadcast information referring to Ukrainian losses and Ukrainian foul ups can only be seen as prima facie evidence of manipulation of the news throughout the western world, and, the talk about Putin having cancer. If that is true it would definitely lessen the barriers around rhe Big Bad Button. Uncomfortable thought....
Actually, there's another interesting point. The suggestion that the power of the 'Russian behemoth' has maybe been exaggerated for decades and decades to justify all that spend on things military. Predident Eisenhower warned us all in 1958 or 1959 that the military-industrial complex possesses huge power. Could this be an example of that power in action? Good subject for a research project that.
BobG
If your second para is correct that would suggest either a failure of intel or a readiness to ignore it Bob.
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This Ukranian guy provides balanced regulat updates on the battle for Donbas, showing where things are going well, or badly
https://youtu.be/UCh8gPEFUcQ
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WE had a AWACS plane flying over our end of town yesterday, when i told the Mrs what it was she thought we were getting ready for the apocalypse !!
She is going to be really worried on Sunday lunchtime then if she is anywhere around Hatfield.
Do you know the exact flight path?
No but I read that it will be over Hatfield some time between 12.30 and 1.20 but it is coming up from Lincolnshire so if it is going to fly over the church there is a good chance it will go straight over my house.
Depends which way they are going, I’m about a mile and a half North of Hatfield Church
Yeah, I gather so. A Google search does say it goes over Hatfield but nothing more.
Maybe more info will be available nearer the time.
Filo. There is a free App you can download, Flightradar24.
You could then follow the flight path once it is in the air.
The flight number is PA474 and is due to take off around 11.45am today.
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I was sent this earlier today
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Depressing how many purveyors of utter b*llocks convince themselves that those who profoundly disagree with them only get their information from the BBC.
Hey dud, quit with the insults, its cheap and tiresome.
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Then stop with the cheap shots about where people who profoundly disagree with you get their information from.
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Then stop with the cheap shots about where people who profoundly disagree with you get their information from.
Come on, that last comment of mine mentioning BBC progaganda wasn't pointed, just stating the bleedin obvious. And was following you having an uneccessary dig at me. This isn't a game of footy, we're not the Yids v the ICF.
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So if you were "just stating the bleeding obvious" about the BBC, presumably you WERE having a dig at the approaches of people who profoundly disagree with you? Seems to me you're explicitly being dismissive of those who think your utterly on the wrong side of both history and morality here.
For the record, I should make it clear that I AM being dismissive of your approach. An attitude that casually waves away the destruction of Mariupol as just one of those things that happens in war isn't an attitude that deserves to be given the courtesy of being respected.
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Back on topic. This seems to be a reasonable statement of Putin's 6 Stages of Grief over Ukraine.
https://mobile.twitter.com/t0nyyates/status/1525815004234227712
He's been at 3 for some time but may well be kicked towards 4 and further over coming weeks.
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U2s Bono and Edge played a surprise busk in an underground station in Kyiv recently.
Haven’t the good people of Kyiv suffered enough?
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That thought had crossed my mind too.
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Dictators can be brutal.
They can be capricious.
But they can also be weak.
#bloodcancer.
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Sweden & Finland could offer not to join NATO if russia totally withdraws from Ukraine!
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What about Russia to join NATO?
They would never be invaded (by the west) and would guarantee their own security.
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After putin is dead or removed
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Cracking idea NR, but not one that would appeal to what I've always, always thought is a 19th Century imperialist state. He, or they, would lose too much influence and 'respect'. Only when Russia moves out of the imperialist phase of national development will things change for the better. Trouible is, if you look at politics, economics, industry, government, social welfare, almost everything tbh, Russia has always been 150 years behind. Given the west left overt imperialism behind between 60 and 70 years ago, we gotta long time still to wait.....
BobG
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Cracking idea NR, but not one that would appeal to what I've always, always thought is a 19th Century imperialist state. He, or they, would lose too much influence and 'respect'. Only when Russia moves out of the imperialist phase of national development will things change for the better. Trouible is, if you look at politics, economics, industry, government, social welfare, almost everything tbh, Russia has always been 150 years behind. Given the west left overt imperialism behind between 60 and 70 years ago, we gotta long time still to wait.....
BobG
Turkey are hardly an example of Western Democracy.
Autocracy hiding behind a democratic facade.
But, and it’s a big but, they have no ideas of taking over an adjoining country. And they are prepared to stand up and help their neighbours. With perhaps the exception of Kurdistan of course. Oh, and Cypriot Cyprus.
And on the note of Kurdistan. Turkey could black ball both Sweden and Finland beca use they are 2 countries known to Turkey, that harbour Kurdish extremists.
Interesting also that Turkey are still allowing Russian flights in and out of their country due to heavy reliance on Russian holidaymakers flocking to their shores.
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Sweden are to vote on NATO
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Cracking idea NR, but not one that would appeal to what I've always, always thought is a 19th Century imperialist state. He, or they, would lose too much influence and 'respect'. Only when Russia moves out of the imperialist phase of national development will things change for the better. Trouible is, if you look at politics, economics, industry, government, social welfare, almost everything tbh, Russia has always been 150 years behind. Given the west left overt imperialism behind between 60 and 70 years ago, we gotta long time still to wait.....
BobG
To be fair Bob & NR, NATO has conditions on membership including democratic elections, so Russia is a non starter.
Up until 2008 Russia and NATO were actually cooperating very significantly, prior to the Georgia situation.
Also one wonders about Turkey who obviously met the conditions for joining in 1952, but imho don’t any more. I don’t see any appetite for throwing Turkey out of NATO, but if they play silly buggers for too long w.r.t Finland and Sweden might that change?
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So if you were "just stating the bleeding obvious" about the BBC, presumably you WERE having a dig at the approaches of people who profoundly disagree with you? Seems to me you're explicitly being dismissive of those who think your utterly on the wrong side of both history and morality here.
For the record, I should make it clear that I AM being dismissive of your approach. An attitude that casually waves away the destruction of Mariupol as just one of those things that happens in war isn't an attitude that deserves to be given the courtesy of being respected.
What else would you like to call the BBC propaganda?
My only beef in all this is the one sided pro west (not pro Ukraine) perspective, which tends to bury the bigger picture, as well as create more conflict. If anyone is coming from that space, clearly projected by the BBC amongst others, and not able to look at or accept the nuances and causes, as well as ignoring things such as Ukraine abuses (eg in Mariupol), Ukraine military losses, etc etc, then I doubt they are seriously up for understanding the situation. As I said before, in no way am I backing Russia, what they have done is horrific. However, I cannot see how the west is innocent, nor those in the Ukraine who have pushed in the wests direction so fiercely and undemocratically. This ain't black and white or yellow and red.
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Sweden & Finland could offer not to join NATO if russia totally withdraws from Ukraine!
I do hope that’s tongue in cheek.
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Thought one or two maybe would of had some sort of opinion on this tweet from Alex Navalny commenting on the support the UK have provided to the Ukrainian war effort.
I'm sure if it had been negative it would of been up before now.
https://twitter.com/navalny/status/1526215436383166464?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1526215436383166464%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Fworld%2Flive%2F2022%2Fmay%2F16%2Frussia-ukraine-war-latest-news-swedish-pm-to-seek-parliaments-support-for-joining-nato-live
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I was literally just about to post this DD.
Fair play. It looks like our Govt is calling this right.
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Sweden are to vote on NATO
I wonder if democracy will prevail if the vote is close, say something like 51% to 49%.
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Sweden & Finland could offer not to join NATO if russia totally withdraws from Ukraine!
I do hope that’s tongue in cheek.
Well spotted Col
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Wow.
Ex-Russian Colonel giving it with both barrels tonight on Russian State TV.
https://mobile.twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1526293852704890882?s=21&t=qQdhoNowCKGuBP3e2qNQbA
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I bet he won’t be on next weeks show.
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The Russians have suffered such great losses, the truth must be leaking out by now.
The problem is, Putin has no way out. He needs some sort of a victory but increasingly, it's looking like he won't get one.
The Ukrainians genuinely believe they will have forced Russia out by the end of the year.
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There are recent Russian gains in the Donbas, and rheres tbe Ukraine surrender in Mariupol.
Russia has had losses, so too has Ukraine, but that info is suppressed.
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''Russia-Ukraine war: hundreds of Ukrainian fighters evacuated from Azovstal''
Guardian live
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''Russia-Ukraine war: hundreds of Ukrainian fighters evacuated from Azovstal''
bbc live
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''Ukraine ends bloody battle for Mariupol, evacuates Azovstal fighters''
Washington Post
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''Hospo Manager With A Masters In Asian Languages Will Be Sharing A Dunny With Some Bloke Forever''
Batoota Advocate ................... oops not that one it's a spoof website
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"evacuation".
Funny isn't it, the relentless twisted language used by western media that somehow escapes the critical awareness of some folks.
In every other instance this is referred to as a surrender. The soldiers are currently in process of an exchange. Ie they are captured, following their surrender. Yet not one headline reflects this.
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Some soldiers are still in there. Isn't it the wounded who have been allowed out?
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"evacuation".
Funny isn't it, the relentless twisted language used by western media that somehow escapes the critical awareness of some folks.
In every other instance this is referred to as a surrender. The soldiers are currently in process of an exchange. Ie they are captured, following their surrender. Yet not one headline reflects this.
The Guardian headline says their fate is unclear.
In the first paragraph it says they surrendered.
It goes on to say the Ukanians want a prisoner swap but it's not clear this will happen. They might even be tried and executed.
The men understood this might be their fate which is one reason why they held out for as long as they possibly could.
Yet more senseless slaughter would not be a surprise in this war.
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I really don't understand why we are getting so hung up about propaganda. It's bloody obvious. Every war since the year 0, and before, has had propaganda as an integral part of the conflict. Read Caesar. Read Livy. Read Polybius. Everybody knows what side Britain is rooting for in the current conflict. So it is inevitable, natural, that our organs of mass media will tend to use language, and reporting, that reflects that bias. To do otherwise would doom their circulation or audience figures - and get them in wrong with the powers that be as well. Intelligent people understand this.
BobG
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Talking of propaganda. I didn't realise what division was being sewn in Germany!
https://youtu.be/zjW_6ArOQ1w
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Some soldiers are still in there. Isn't it the wounded who have been allowed out?
I think it's the wounded first but all Ukraines will be removed unless those remaining change their minds. The prisoner exchange looks like it will be partial at most, with some being tried for war crimes in Russia. One of the reasons they have held out till now. Not looking good for any of them with Nazi related tattoos.
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Quite ironic. A fascist dictatorship unleashing the biggest European war in 75 years, ostensibly to de-Nazify a handful of opponents.
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Quite ironic. A fascist dictatorship unleashing the biggest European war in 75 years, ostensibly to de-Nazify a handful of opponents.
In an area they supposedly already had control/ or more accurately an area waiting to be 'liberated'
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Vladimir Putin is “weaponising” global food supplies by stealing grain and destroying agricultural equipment as part of his war in Ukraine, Western officials have said.
The Kremlin is believed to be dismantling infrastructure needed for food production and blocking ports that are vital in shipping cereals out of the country, which is known as the “breadbasket of Europe”.
Officials fear Russia has embarked on a “deliberate policy” of disrupting food supplies, sparking a global crisis and raising the prospect of starvation in developing countries.
It looks like the cost of living crisis is only going to deteriorate.
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Quite ironic. A fascist dictatorship unleashing the biggest European war in 75 years, ostensibly to de-Nazify a handful of opponents.
That handful, exactly how many are you claiming?
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against a population of 44million I guess a handful would be reasonable description
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against a population of 44million I guess a handful would be reasonable description
Precisely. 2% of Ukranian voters supported far right parties in their last election. Of course their are far right militiamen fighting. Just like there were in our army in WWII. Launching a war to "de-Nazify" Ukraine is an obscenity. Especially coming from a fascist dictator. It would have been like Hitler justifying the Blitz because he had to wipe out Oswald Moseley's Blackshirts.
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&quot;evacuation&quot;.
Funny isn't it, the relentless twisted language used by western media that somehow escapes the critical awareness of some folks.
In every other instance this is referred to as a surrender. The soldiers are currently in process of an exchange. Ie they are captured, following their surrender. Yet not one headline reflects this.
The Guardian headline says their fate is unclear.
In the first paragraph it says they surrendered.
It goes on to say the Ukanians want a prisoner swap but it's not clear this will happen. They might even be tried and executed.
The men understood this might be their fate which is one reason why they held out for as long as they possibly could.
Yet more senseless slaughter would not be a surprise in this war.
Yes, you wonder whether Putin will use this opportunity to declare "We got the Nazis" and make an example of them in Russian courts accusing them of war crimes. One can only speculate about the verdict and their sentences.
Now Ukraine have tried the first Russian soldier (who pleaded guilty) and is yet to be sentenced, it's likely Russia will find a way of punishing Ukrainian soldiers for defending their country.
Meanwhile, a very key battle going on at the moment where Russia are trying to encircle Sveredonetsk and Lyschansk, which are key for Russians objective of taking the whole of Donbass.
https://youtu.be/W3pExFIep_o
Also, Russians also getting smarter with drones spotting some of the new howitzers recently delivered.
https://youtu.be/WnCOM6DfCA4
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Oh dear.
https://mobile.twitter.com/sahilkapur/status/1527092111195226114
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not on his mind then?
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Crowd at a big gig in St Petersburg suddenly burst out into an anti-war chant. I have said many times Putin will only ever be brought down by the Russian people turning against him, is it starting?
https://twitter.com/Billbrowder/status/1528122626438221824
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There have been protests there for a while now. Half? of a crowd of 2k? mainly teenagers is almost less dramatic than an BNP demo.
From what I hear from my Russian neighbour who has half a family in Russia, half n Ukraine (most of those currently in the neighbours house at the mo), the support in Russia for the war is pretty solid and passionate.
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There have been protests there for a while now. Half? of a crowd of 2k? mainly teenagers is almost less dramatic than an BNP demo.
From what I hear from my Russian neighbour who has half a family in Russia, half n Ukraine (most of those currently in the neighbours house at the mo), the support in Russia for the war is pretty solid and passionate.
With the utmost respect to your neighbour, from that video, of people who are actually in Russia, who know they face arrest and jail for expressing any anti-war sentiment and will be the ones called up to do the fighting if Putin widens conscription - its not.
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There have been protests there for a while now. Half? of a crowd of 2k? mainly teenagers is almost less dramatic than an BNP demo.
From what I hear from my Russian neighbour who has half a family in Russia, half n Ukraine (most of those currently in the neighbours house at the mo), the support in Russia for the war is pretty solid and passionate.
With the utmost respect to your neighbour, from that video, of people who are actually in Russia, who know they face arrest and jail for expressing any anti-war sentiment and will be the ones called up to do the fighting if Putin widens conscription - its not.
My neighbours family is in Russia, actually in Russia.
As you suggest, it's helpful to consider demographics that could be called up. The most likely being those who have done their national service, rather than ones called up now. Many, most, in that audience won't have done their national service. Also, half of the audience are girls.
Of course the western news will plug objections to the war, and there is definitely some objection there, but from what I can see it isn't remotely at the level that is threatening Putin - that may well change. The same goes for the huge demos we have over here that are largely unreported in the west, tho are over reported in Russia and elsewhere as beng threats to the UK government.
It's all about the establishment controlling information. It's more or less the same everywhere. Note the immediate attempted blocking of Russian sympathetic media here, and vice versa in Russia.
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Russian-sympathetic media you say? Should we have welcome Leni Riefenstahl and Lord Haw Haw onto our airwaves in 1938 to tell us why the invasion of the Sudetenland was justified?
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Don't be daft. Poor analagy on many levels.We're not at war with Russia - our governemnt may be by proxy along with it's cohorts, but we're not. There is a significant iussue there wth the history and politics in the lead up - not that I think that excuses Putin with the action he has taken, but it's there. Why shouldn't it be discussed, likewise NATOs expansionism, Ukraine firing on civilians etc etc.
Brings up an interesting issue though. This "fighting for freedpm" that our gradfathers etc did - was that including censorship of news? We already have that with the BBC etc, but attempting to seal off news that is clearly disadvantageous to our extablishment is plain censorship. I believe that is one of the actions of an authoritarian governement, which we do know this Tory lot aspire to being despite their rhetoric, and Labour too for that matter if they can get away with it, and in recent times they plainly have done.
But yes, if we were actually at war it's a different matter, and I say *we*, not our establishment.
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/05/22/western-resolve-set-tested-key-us-eu-figures-want-ukraine-cede/
Looks like certain underhand forces are now spreading their tentacles and trying to prepare the ground for Ukraine to accept compromise positions and cede territory in the war with the Russians.
Step forward sly back stabbing French and German internal political interests, trying to whip the Americans into accepting that the better long term strategy is to appease Putin in The Dombas and the south of Ukraine, allowing them to tie Crimea into a a lager block of territory.
Whats the point of the "west" trying to stick together and defeat the Russians once and for all with this proxy effort when you have sly and conniving French and German interests to have to deal with.
I always knew these bas***d's would try to swing it around to whats in their nations interest first and foremost. Good luck to the Ukrainians in trying to hold out for long enough to frustrate the Russians before these shits muddy the waters.
One of the leading reasons why a majority in this country wanted to leave their club is demonstrated right there.
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/22/ukraine-russia-ceasefire-deal-territory-donbas
Lets just Hope the Ukrainians get their wish to continue to reclaim their territory in the right manner.
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BRR.
Who were we at war with in 1938?
Your lazy dismissal of the analogy speaks volumes.
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Senior Russian diplomat at UN defects over war in Ukraine – reports
A Russian diplomat has resigned from his position in the United Nations, saying he has “never been so ashamed” of his country and condemning Vladimir Putin for his “aggressive war” against Ukraine, according to reports.
Boris Bondarev, a counsellor of the Russian mission to the UN office in Geneva, criticised the Russian foreign ministry – where he has worked for 20 years – for its increasing “level of lies and unprofessionalism”, the rights watchdog UN Watch reports.
In a statement shared by the organisation’s director, Hillel Neuer, Bondarev said:
For twenty years of my diplomatic career I have seen different turns of our foreign policy, but never have I been so ashamed of my country as on February 24 of this year. The affressive war unleashed by Putin against Ukraine, and in fact against the entire Western world, is not only a crime against the Ukrainian people, but also, perhaps, the most serious crime against the people of Russia, with a bold letter Z crossing our all hopes and prospects for a prosperous free society in our country.
Those who conceived this war want only one thing – to remain in power forever, live in pompous tasteless palaces, sail on yachts comparable in tonnage and cost to the entire Russian Navy, enjoying unlimited power and complete impunity. To achieve that they are willing to sacrifice as many lives as it takes. Thousands of Russians and Ukrainians have already died just for this.
Guardian Live
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Blimey
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That almost sounds too good to be true.
If he's a middle aged bloke, which he must be, then he has just sacrificed his career, his pension, his home, his family and maybe even his friends and his own life. Is that credible?
BobG
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Sky News app has the letter in full. He absolutely goes to town on Putin and especially Lavrov.
Unfortunately I’m too inept to do a link so if you’re interested, have a look at the Live update feed on Sky News.
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Gosh. Then he is a very, very brave man. I wish him well with all my heart.
BobG
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I would imagine he's already sounded out an asylum position in the States before he went full rogue on his administration.Will be watching his back for the rest of his days.
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Is this the one people are referring to?
https://twitter.com/HillelNeuer/status/1528668629482541057
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Russian-sympathetic media you say? Should we have welcome Leni Riefenstahl and Lord Haw Haw onto our airwaves in 1938 to tell us why the invasion of the Sudetenland was justified?
BRR.
Who were we at war with in 1938?
Your lazy dismissal of the analogy speaks volumes.
Apologies, I missed the 1938 angle.
Yes, I think it's important to hear all perspectives no matter how uncomfortable that may be, and even with the hindsight of what was to follow. Do you think a one sided take on the Vietnam war would have helped anyone?
A positive of analogies is they can bring a different perspective. A problem is tey are inevitably not perfect to a larger or lesser degree. They often contain emotively persuasive aspects which fog the quest for understanding.
In this instance, you are suggesting certain perspectives should be restricted from the pot of discussion? Why is that? Surely understanding motives, seeing the bigger picture, and then being able to honestly form judgements based on all that, counter untruths ad so on, is the better way.
Like I mentioned, there is the perspective, often mentioned and adhered to in this thread, that only the Russians are killing civilians, the current Ukraine government are the pure goodies, the issue is simply Russia has invaded, anexed, that the west has no responsibility. Simplistic, black and white, and exactly what an establishment strives to make "fact".
There's also the stories of low moral amongst Russian troops, failure of their equipment and tactics where everything on the Ukraine side is hunky dory, lack of territorial gains, huge rising objections in Russia to Putin and the war, some of which may be partially true but is certainly blown out of proportion and leaves people with a fairytale understanding of the situation. Is that good?
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To restrict narrative, censorship and platform denial all historically are tools of the right which now seem to be more and more appropriated by the left. Prime example being universities and local authorities cancelling performances. Unless you gave been there on the front lines in Ukraine then you know nothing for sure
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BRR. Analogies. Let me tell you an old but true story. I think there's a lot to learn by reflecting on it.
There was once a powerful and proud Empire, run by a ruthlessly domineering clique.
They had enemies though, in other countries.
And after a long and difficult struggle, the Empire collapsed and faded away. Lands that they used to rule gained their own statehood and freedom.
Meanwhile, back in the Homeland, things weren't good. The powerful previous rulers were replaced by weak men. The economy collapsed, not helped by the actions of the countries who had defeated them. The country lost its pride and resentment festered.
Then along came a strong man. He was from humble origins and had pulled himself up from the gutter by skillfully siding with thugs and criminals. He told his people that they could be Great Again. That they should destroy their enemies at home and make their enemies abroad fear and respect them.
The People wanted that. They elected him their head of Government.
And he set about cementing that power. He unpicked the democratic checks and balances. He destroyed the free Press. He used targetted and relentless propaganda to push his line. He had opponents intimidated or killed.
He became an unchallengeable Leader. The embodiment of far-right ethno-nationalist power.
And then he set about bringing surrounding countries to heel. The country immediately to his south had, within its borders, a lot of people who ethnically an culturally considered themselves part of the Homeland. They considered themselves an oppressed minority. The Leader promised to protect them and threatened the neighboring country with military force...
Let's pause the story there.
It's obvious I'm talking about Germany from 1918 until the Sudetenland conflict.
Or am I talking about Russia from 1989 to 2014?
See, at the top level there are an astonishing number of similarities in the two cases.
Of course in the earlier case, despite the Czechs being up for resisting German aggression, they were sacrificed by the West who refused to assist them. Most historians now think that was one of the great blunders of history, and that Hitler would have been contained if the UK and France had gone all in on supporting Czechoslovakia. But we didn't. We gave in to the fascist thug. And in doing so, we set him on the road to the conflict that killed 30 million Europeans.
Fortunately, the West today is in the process of destroying the heir to Hitler.
But you would have us listen to Russian propaganda and give Putin a fair hearing. Presumably you would equally have been prepared to argue why Hitler wasn't all bad when he invaded Czechoslovakia?
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I don’t understand why Ukrainian forces don’t deploy large powerful speakers to the frontline and play Coldplay tracks loud, in the direction of advancing Russian troops. That would have them shooting themselves.
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A bit like when James Blunt reckons he stopped the outbreak of WWII when he was in the peacekeeping forces in Kosovo. I should imagine when the Russians saw him, they sank to their knees and offered unconditional surrender, just as long as he didn't sing. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-11753050
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Even more effective, they could set up a stage on the frontline and have Chris Martin and co perform live...
Knowing they have the awesome power of Ed Sheeran as back up, that might break the Geneva convention though.
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BST, impressed with your analogy until the pause. Czechoslovakia is not nearly similar to Ukraine in that it wasn't being taken over by a major force that directly threatened Germany ie NATO/US/EU in Ukraines case. That is very important in the current situation.
So, it seems you, maybe inadvertantly, are using rhetoric to make your overall point?
The deliberate aggressive actions of the West are as unforgivable as Putin pulling the trigger. It's always been the US's ideal to wipe Russia off the map. Who would you say is the Hitler embedded in the US?
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And, yes I would want to hear the German's reason for their actions. Information is always good, and can be argued with and put in context, and negotiations employed to avert further problems, if not avert the action eg of Germany in the first place. I'd also be taking into account the shoddy end of WW1 that gave rise to the situation.
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I'm not sure Ukraine was being 'taken over' by NATO/EU.
More applying to join them.
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I'm not sure Ukraine was being 'taken over' by NATO/EU.
More applying to join them.
There you go with the BBC line ;)
NATO and the EU have pushed their invites very strongly including lots of support for the pro parties. They did more than stir up a hornets nest. But more so, It's the US that wants the big slice of the pie as well as pushing Russia to the brink. And what happened? Who jhas suffered? Who has gained?
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Impossible RD. It's like arguing with a Jehovah's Witness.
If you start from a position that The West is the bad guy, you will perform whatever intellectual gymnastics you need to to convince yourself that the West is the bad guy.
It was ever thus with the extreme Left. The fact that they've re-invented themselves on the extreme Right, providing cover stories to fascist butchers doesn't change the MO.
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BRR - and there you go again spouting Putin's propoganda. As used by Johnson (who also blamed Ukraine applying to join the EU as the cause for the invasion I seem to remember).
This is false and an excuse for Putin's invasion(s) not the true reason for them. That he has stated several times. He does not believe Ukraine should exisit but it is merely and historically a region of Russia as published here:
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/On_the_Historical_Unity_of_Russians_and_Ukrainians
He has pushed this for years:
The notion that Ukraine is not a country in its own right, but a historical part of Russia, appears to be deeply ingrained in the minds of many in the Russian leadership. Already long before the Ukraine crisis, at an April 2008 NATO summit in Bucharest, Vladimir Putin reportedly claimed that “Ukraine is not even a state! What is Ukraine? A part of its territory is [in] Eastern Europe, but a[nother] part, a considerable one, was a gift from us!” In his March 18, 2014 speech marking the annexation of Crimea, Putin declared that Russians and Ukrainians “are one people. Kiev is the mother of Russian cities. Ancient Rus’ is our common source and we cannot live without each other.” Since then, Putin has repeated similar claims on many occasions. As recently as February 2020, he once again stated in an interview that Ukrainians and Russians “are one and the same people”, and he insinuated that Ukrainian national identity had emerged as a product of foreign interference. Similarly, Russia’s then-Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev told a perplexed apparatchik in April 2016 that there has been “no state” in Ukraine, neither before nor after the 2014 crisis.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseih/2020/07/01/there-is-no-ukraine-fact-checking-the-kremlins-version-of-ukrainian-history/
https://theconversation.com/putins-antagonism-toward-ukraine-was-never-just-about-nato-its-about-creating-a-new-russian-empire-177687
https://www.rochester.edu/newscenter/ukraine-history-fact-checking-putin-513812/
Criticise the US, the EU, the 'west' all you like but Putin is an imperialist fascist dictator. Anyone attempting to push his 'motivations' without mentioning this fact is an apologist for him.
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Strong invitations are so much worse than tanks, warships, troops and hypersonic missles.
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I'm not sure Ukraine was being 'taken over' by NATO/EU.
More applying to join them.
There you go with the BBC line ;)
NATO and the EU have pushed their invites very strongly including lots of support for the pro parties. They did more than stir up a hornets nest. But more so, It's the US that wants the big slice of the pie as well as pushing Russia to the brink. And what happened? Who jhas suffered? Who has gained?
Those who conceived this war want only one thing – to remain in power forever, live in pompous tasteless palaces, sail on yachts comparable in tonnage and cost to the entire Russian Navy, enjoying unlimited power and complete impunity. To achieve that they are willing to sacrifice as many lives as it takes.
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BST, WR and RD - you are missing my point. I am saying there is more than one narrative to this war, more than the pro west one you are regurgitating which is like reading a Janet and John story.
I am not in favour of the Russian action, nor am I in favour of the US imperialist, soft fascimo game - which is purely for the folks in the US and Cayman Islands etc, to get their second yachts, and for others to get their second Starship Enterprise or whatever they view their ludicrous boy toys as.
Nor am I in favour of the German led EU game - arguably something that has it's roots in some dodgy history BST might wish to retell?
To be clear, I detest all gangster states, including ours. They are fundamentally evil but reflect the aspect of humans that has been forever in existance. That ego trip that rises to the top, always. It is the people of the Ukraine that suffer here, in the onslaught of Russian and US arms, all of which ultimately are paid for by people around the world and make money for billionaires, and probably most peoples pensions. And the people of the world - well not the Russian ologarchs, or the Yankee Oligarchs, or the numerous other subgangsters around the world. And the people tricked into being warriors for the elite.
If you want to believe all you are told by the BBC, fill yer boots. And remember to pay the license fee too :silly: Meanwhile, I'll continue to look in as many places as possible for info.
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BRR.
Meanwhile, in the real world, once the bombs had started falling and the Russian armoured columns had started heading to Kyiv, you had a choice to make.
- Arm Ukraine and help them resist.
- Sit in a corner complaining about how much responsibility the West bears and say everyone should stop fighting and start negotiating, while Putin obliterated Ukranian democracy and turned it into a client state.
The Far Left/Far Right have constantly called for the second outcome. Dress it up how you like, that is supporting a fascist imperialist.
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I'm not sure Ukraine was being 'taken over' by NATO/EU.
More applying to join them.
There you go with the BBC line ;)
NATO and the EU have pushed their invites very strongly including lots of support for the pro parties. They did more than stir up a hornets nest. But more so, It's the US that wants the big slice of the pie as well as pushing Russia to the brink. And what happened? Who jhas suffered? Who has gained?
Which invitation was the more attractive would you think brr, putin's or the west's and what if any inducements have been used?
And if you were looking to join a club .................
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On the one hand you have pushing invites
On the other you have carpet bombing cities.
Tough call int it?
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This is something not coming over on the BBC
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bac5Q2wvIT4
From the comments:"Briefly. Appeal to the President and the military command on behalf of the unit and the entire people. They do not have sufficient weapons, there is no equipment that would cover them and there are not enough people. As a result, they are unable to complete their assigned tasks and have no desire to die in this manner." ie they surrendered.
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On the one hand you have pushing invites
On the other you have carpet bombing cities.
Tough call int it?
Invites, and manipulation of a country's democratic processes that amongst other things leads to a very large section of the country being adversely affected, and then an army containing some very nasty troops sent in to quel them, murdering civilians. Strange how you choose to miss or dismiss that bit.
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I'm not sure Ukraine was being 'taken over' by NATO/EU.
More applying to join them.
There you go with the BBC line ;)
NATO and the EU have pushed their invites very strongly including lots of support for the pro parties. They did more than stir up a hornets nest. But more so, It's the US that wants the big slice of the pie as well as pushing Russia to the brink. And what happened? Who jhas suffered? Who has gained?
Which invitation was the more attractive would you think brr, putin's or the west's and what if any inducements have been used?
And if you were looking to join a club .................
If you go about choosing to be friends of those with the best sweeties to offer, then... oh, dear.
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So come on BRR. What do YOU say should happen when you have Putin obliterating cities.
Not in your ideal world where everyone acts as you'd like them to. In THIS one. Here. Now.
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BRR.
Meanwhile, in the real world, once the bombs had started falling and the Russian armoured columns had started heading to Kyiv, you had a choice to make.
- Arm Ukraine and help them resist.
- Sit in a corner complaining about how much responsibility the West bears and say everyone should stop fighting and start negotiating, while Putin obliterated Ukranian democracy and turned it into a client state.
The Far Left/Far Right have constantly called for the second outcome. Dress it up how you like, that is supporting a fascist imperialist.
The idjuts who took it to that place are the ones needing a kicking, and that is people on both sides. You absolve a specific section of them. That is a dire space to hang your hat.
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So come on BRR. What do YOU say should happen when you have Putin obliterating cities.
Not in your ideal world where everyone acts as you'd like them to. In THIS one. Here. Now.
Here, now, the US and NATO are arming them. Go too far that way and the risk of harm to the whole world doesn't beaar thinkiing about. But meanwhile all that does is get more people killed. Is that your plan?
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On the one hand you have pushing invites
On the other you have carpet bombing cities.
Tough call int it?
Invites, and manipulation of a country's democratic processes that amongst other things leads to a very large section of the country being adversely affected, and then an army containing some very nasty troops sent in to quel them, murdering civilians. Strange how you choose to miss or dismiss that bit.
And the democratic processes in putinland, where are they?
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So come on BRR. What do YOU say should happen when you have Putin obliterating cities.
Not in your ideal world where everyone acts as you'd like them to. In THIS one. Here. Now.
Here, now, the US and NATO are arming them. Go too far that way and the risk of harm to the whole world doesn't beaar thinkiing about. But meanwhile all that does is get more people killed. Is that your plan?
Very well sidestepped. You're good at pointing out the theoretical problems and avoiding real world answers.
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On the one hand you have pushing invites
On the other you have carpet bombing cities.
Tough call int it?
Invites, and manipulation of a country's democratic processes that amongst other things leads to a very large section of the country being adversely affected, and then an army containing some very nasty troops sent in to quel them, murdering civilians. Strange how you choose to miss or dismiss that bit.
And the democratic processes in putinland, where are they?
Agreed not great, but then in Yankee land, and most of the countries they invade (a lot!), not great either. The illusion of democracy eh!
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quick look over there
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So come on BRR. What do YOU say should happen when you have Putin obliterating cities.
Not in your ideal world where everyone acts as you'd like them to. In THIS one. Here. Now.
Here, now, the US and NATO are arming them. Go too far that way and the risk of harm to the whole world doesn't beaar thinkiing about. But meanwhile all that does is get more people killed. Is that your plan?
Very well sidestepped. You're good at pointing out the theoretical problems and avoiding real world answers.
You too, eh!
If, in this case, US/NATO/EU could see where this was going, where their deliberate actions were pushing, surely they could step back and work out some other less imperialist route. But they didn't, partly because they were happy to chance their arm with either getting away with it, or have Russia embroiled in a long war with them arming Ukraine to a lesser or larger extent. That's where the real choice was.
Now, it's the lesser of evils to pick. If I was suddenly captain of the US/NATO/EU, I'd maybe arm Ukraine as has been done, but also heavily pressure them to immediately negotiate giving land to Russia ie pretty much what they have plus the whole Donbas. I'd also compensate them substantially for "our" past f**k up rebuilding everything with brass knobs on, no loans just gifts, and have trials of all those involved in pushing this situation to the brink, notably those working in underhanded ways. I'd develop a trading solution that allowed them to work more closely with Europe as well as Russia. I'd guarantee minimal US involvement with Ukraine in any way - maybe allow McDonalds and the like but not the bigger companies and anything that could remotely be considered linked with warfare - eg the biotech companies. I'd have temporary UN troops along the borders wit Russia. All that part of the initial negotiation with Russia where they gained land.
And you?
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quick look over there
Not pretty is it!
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quick look over there
Not pretty is it!
/quote]
your own debating style?
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quick look over there
Not pretty is it!
your own debating style?
Prey tell.
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quick look over there
Here you go, an on topic issue of US democracy.
https://rumble.com/v15ufc7-chip-roy-torches-congress-for-starting-proxy-war-with-russia.html
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It's beginning to look like the new Russian tactic of throwing immense numbers at a focussed target is starting to pay off. Slowly but surely, sheer weight of numbers are starting to gain ground.
Which makes me wonder, is now a good time to give way at the negotiating table? This war is costing Russia so much but Putin needs a way out.
We could let them have some territory and it might bring this terrible war to an end.
Personally I don't think the Russian army is a threat now to Eastern Europe. They exhausted it trying to take Ukraine. Economically things must be hurting in Russia. And how long has Putin got, if he's as sick as reports suggest?
This war is likely to have a profound effect in Russia, as Afghanistan did. Perhaps now is the time to deescalate the situation?
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It's beginning to look like the new Russian tactic of throwing immense numbers at a focussed target is starting to pay off. Slowly but surely, sheer weight of numbers are starting to gain ground.
Which makes me wonder, is now a good time to give way at the negotiating table? This war is costing Russia so much but Putin needs a way out.
We could let them have some territory and it might bring this terrible war to an end.
Personally I don't think the Russian army is a threat now to Eastern Europe. They exhausted it trying to take Ukraine. Economically things must be hurting in Russia. And how long has Putin got, if he's as sick as reports suggest?
This war is likely to have a profound effect in Russia, as Afghanistan did. Perhaps now is the time to deescalate the situation?
Very good post, RD. I agree with every bit of that.
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From the western side, it is certain that Putin is aiming to destabilise the economy and it's working. A recession looks unavoidable and a cost of living crisis is already upon is.
Fine, we might say it's a price worth paying for freedom and democracy in Ukraine. I doubt we'd think that way if we were Sri Lankan. The very high cost of gas is impacting heavily on the production of Fertilizer and that is going to have a severe impact on food production. Taken together with the blockade of Ukrainian ports and I would say the Governor of the Bank of England is not wrong in saying the brewing food crisis is going to be apocalyptic.
Both sides need a resolution to this war.
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I just don’t get what Russia want here. A land grab is one thing, but large swathes of Donbas is being completely levelled. It’s going to be totally uninhabitable. It will take decades to rebuild and repopulate. If ever.
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I think it's just symbolic now NR.
Putin needs to show he's won something. That the whole adventure was worthwhile. That all the lives lost are worth it
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Every day I wake up thinking today is the day he has been taken out, or driven off to some sanitarium in the gulag.
It will happen.
I have hope.
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I'd settle for a good, big stroke NR.
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A report out of Russia today:
Sooner or later, Europe will tire of helping. This is both money and arms production that they need for themselves. Closer to the fall, they’ll have to negotiate [with Russia] on gas and oil, before the cold season arrives.
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Zelenski has made another statement this morning commiting Ukraine to pushing the Russians out of Donbas.
The Russians appear to be prepared to commit to the long haul.
The repercussions of this are likely to be very damaging globally I think.
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A report out of Russia today:
Sooner or later, Europe will tire of helping. This is both money and arms production that they need for themselves. Closer to the fall, they’ll have to negotiate [with Russia] on gas and oil, before the cold season arrives.
Hmmm, have they been watching the reports coming out of Davos and getting a bit worried maybe?
https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/2022/05/25/explained-what-is-lng-and-why-does-the-eu-want-so-much-of-it
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Imagine if you were Foreign Secretary.
Imagine if you were going to spend several thousand pounds of taxpayers' money making a video that was all about you and how important your work with important allies is. A self-publicity video to show how important you are.
Do you think, you being Foreign Secretary, you'd possibly check how to pronounce "Bosnia and Herzegovina"? Or would you just blurt it out wrong? Twice.
https://mobile.twitter.com/trussliz/status/1530466061463740416
And do you think you might have people around you who would be knowledgeable enough to say, "Err... Foreign Secretary..." when they heard you.
I look forward to her next visit to the United States of Americia.
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Jeeeez. Someone is running out of things to have a whine about methinks.
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It's beginning to look like the new Russian tactic of throwing immense numbers at a focussed target is starting to pay off. Slowly but surely, sheer weight of numbers are starting to gain ground.
Which makes me wonder, is now a good time to give way at the negotiating table? This war is costing Russia so much but Putin needs a way out.
We could let them have some territory and it might bring this terrible war to an end.
Personally I don't think the Russian army is a threat now to Eastern Europe. They exhausted it trying to take Ukraine. Economically things must be hurting in Russia. And how long has Putin got, if he's as sick as reports suggest?
This war is likely to have a profound effect in Russia, as Afghanistan did. Perhaps now is the time to deescalate the situation?
Maybe but Ukraine is suffering, and appearing to be on a trail towards defeat. Their troops are not what is/was portrayed, and their equipment seems questionable.
The sooner it's done for Ukraine the better for them. Their position is getting progressively weaker, more so than it appears Russia's is.
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I think it's just symbolic now NR.
Putin needs to show he's won something. That the whole adventure was worthwhile. That all the lives lost are worth it
The same can be said of the west. I don't thin it's going to their plan.
What can Ukraine realistically expect from negotiations at this point?
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BRR. You need to get off your Russian propaganda channels and start looking at the big picture.
This is how Russian aims in the Donbas have shrunk over the past 3 months.
https://mobile.twitter.com/paulkrugman/status/1526856733188100098
They've just achieved capture of Severodonetsk.
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BST, is that a point of some kind that you're making? That doesn't back up what your saying.
There are consistent Russian advances across the whole East. Signs are this is accelerating.
We know a dug in, entrenched defending force is tough to move. The Ukraines have been there for many years. It's going to be interesting to see how they cope when falling back. They could be well prepared, maybe in some ways not. I doubt there'll be a collapse, at least not yet.
There is a danger that moral, losses, collapse could bring the Russians a lot of territory fairly quickly. Would they take it, go for destroying Ukraine further, or consolidate?
On that destruction score, it has to be asked why Ukraine is destroying so much of its own towns and cities? I guess that's war.
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Still waiting to hear your suggestions for a solution. Or just sitting back and watching? Watching the BBC that is :lol:
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BST, is that a point of some kind that you're making? That doesn't back up what your saying.
There are consistent Russian advances across the whole East. Signs are this is accelerating.
We know a dug in, entrenched defending force is tough to move. The Ukraines have been there for many years. It's going to be interesting to see how they cope when falling back. They could be well prepared, maybe in some ways not. I doubt there'll be a collapse, at least not yet.
There is a danger that moral, losses, collapse could bring the Russians a lot of territory fairly quickly. Would they take it, go for destroying Ukraine further, or consolidate?
On that destruction score, it has to be asked why Ukraine is destroying so much of its own towns and cities? I guess that's war.
Would you care to share your information that Ukraine is destroying its own town and cities?
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"On that destruction score, it has to be asked why Ukraine is destroying so much of its own towns and cities?"
Because, of course, what they should have done is lay petals on the road when the Russian tanks first rolled in and invited Russia to take over the country.
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BST At least you recognise they are doing. Some fools see it as one sided, same with civilian deaths. And the use of human shields appears to be more Ukraine - most notably in Mariupol.
DD, they have guns and are shelling enemy positions and civilians. Lots of videos showing this. Guessing you haven't looked?
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I recognise they are fighting like f**k to kick a fascist imperialist aggressor out of their country. What do YOU think they should do?
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Winston Churchill deliberately engineered the torpedoing of the Lusitania. It's incontrovertible. He had a damn good reason for doing so. He wanted Germany to be seen to be responsible for drowning American citizens. He, and Britain employed some very dirty tricks indeed in the course of the whole episode. But, and for me this is important, in war, you do what you have to do. Part of that, of course, is presentation. Nobody doubts, I hope, that both sides are fighting to win. So arguing about 'who did what to whom' (in my best Clarkson voice) is pointless. Gratuitous violence is another matter of course, So the key thing worth noting is that Ukraine is winning the presentation war hands down.
BobG
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BST At least you recognise they are doing. Some fools see it as one sided, same with civilian deaths. And the use of human shields appears to be more Ukraine - most notably in Mariupol.
DD, they have guns and are shelling enemy positions and civilians. Lots of videos showing this. Guessing you haven't looked?
BRR
See, i would say that is defending your country and fighting off invaders, who after all have already reduced most of the towns into rubble.
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This is your regular reminder that people who come to a discussion with the preformed conclusion that NATO must be blamed will perform extraordinary mental gymnastics to reach the conclusion that NATO is to blame.
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I recognise they are fighting like f**k to kick a fascist imperialist aggressor out of their country. What do YOU think they should do?
I already said. The people there are caught in the midst of a battle for strategic and economic power play between the US/NATO, Russia and EU. The best exit strategy here for the Ukraine people is not more bloodshed, tho in the short term they're forced into that. .
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This is your regular reminder that people who come to a discussion with the preformed conclusion that NATO must be blamed will perform extraordinary mental gymnastics to reach the conclusion that NATO is to blame.
Do explain how US/NATO, all their politics and interference over many many years have not been at least half the cause of this?
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QED
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QED
That's a poor rhetorical attempt.
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Because, as I've said before, I try not to engage with the Far Left/Right who have a conclusion before they begin.
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BST At least you recognise they are doing. Some fools see it as one sided, same with civilian deaths. And the use of human shields appears to be more Ukraine - most notably in Mariupol.
DD, they have guns and are shelling enemy positions and civilians. Lots of videos showing this. Guessing you haven't looked?
BRR
See, i would say that is defending your country and fighting off invaders, who after all have already reduced most of the towns into rubble.
It's not as one sided as you seem to imply. In some regions, it may well be predominantly Russians causing the rubble, certainly they are targeting lots of infastructure.
In the Donbas, Ukraine is at least equally to blame for creating rubble.
In areas such as Mariupol, the rubble may be more from the Russians, but how else to deal with snipers? And the use of human shields there appears to be very one sided. The Azov Ukraine fighters were more than desperate, they used all they could including civilians.
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Because, as I've said before, I try not to engage with the Far Left/Right who have a conclusion before they begin.
I think you'll see I have placed more than one side as being culpable. You however choose to see it as entirely a Russian evil. I think that is a stronger entrenched perspective.
Far left, far right? Seems you are trying to create black and white. If so, you are missing what's happening.
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I know if the Russians were invading the UK, I wouldn't be overly concerned if the RAF had to flatten say Southampton to stop them landing.
I know I would not just sit back and accept Putins rule for the sake of preventing bloodshed in an invasion. I'd want to do what I could to help the fight back and if all looked lost, I'd be looking for a way out to Canada or somewhere.
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Latest on Russia military vehicle losses.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html?m=1
738 tanks gone. That's about 25% of all the operational tanks the entire Russian forces were believed to have at the start of the conflict.
Not the Russian forces in Ukraine. The entire national Russian army.
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They are having to dig out old 1960s tanks from deep storage to send to southern Ukraine. They won't need high tech equipment to take those out.
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Latest on Russia military vehicle losses.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html?m=1
738 tanks gone. That's about 25% of all the operational tanks the entire Russian forces were believed to have at the start of the conflict.
Not the Russian forces in Ukraine. The entire national Russian army.
That site only uses verified photographs to calculate the numbers. It suggests the actual figure will be higher.
I've seen estimates above 1,000 destroyed Russian tanks... Which must be getting on to a third of the entire fleet!
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Do you get the impression that the Russians have learnt absolutely nothing about modern warfare going right back to the start of the last century, probably further. They still want to throw massive amounts of men and resources into a war without any care or thought for human life. Such a backward society, they have learnt nothing about anything.They will take many years to properly integrate into modern society, if they can ever get rid of leaders with empire delusions.
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The U.S. estimates that Russian President Vladimir Putin has "around 75 percent of his total military committed to the fight in Ukraine," clarifying later that the 75 percent figure mostly refers to "battalion tactical groups, which is the units that he has primarily relied upon."
"At the height of our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, we were about 29 percent committed," former U.S. Army Europe commander Lt. Gen. Ben Hodges noted Tuesday at the Center for European Policy Analysis think tank. "And it was difficult to sustain that."
If that's right and 75% of the Russian military are in Ukraine, then that would mean they've lost something like half their tanks they originally commited to the campaign.
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Latest on Russia military vehicle losses.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html?m=1
738 tanks gone. That's about 25% of all the operational tanks the entire Russian forces were believed to have at the start of the conflict.
Not the Russian forces in Ukraine. The entire national Russian army.
Ukraine losses?
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Entirely missing the point BRR.
Ukraine has a supply pipeline to restore losses. Russia is rapidly running down its ground-based hardware to the point that it will have little effective ground warfare making capability left. And with an economy about the size of Spain's, but three times as many mouths to feed, it's going to be a generation-long job at least to replace these losses.
And for what? To attempt to satisfy the ego of a fascist thug.
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Worthwhile revisting this post from a couple of weeks back I think.
If you put this together with what BST & RD have posted today - then the current Russian tactics to go as hard as they can, to sieze as much as they can, whilst they can, begin to make a lot more sense.
Really interesting (although long) assessment of current state of play in Ukraine by a US defence analyist.
Well worth a read of it all but spoiler alert, Russians have used up their best equipment and best troops and are growing weaker. Ukraine has lost few troops and is getting better and better equipment from NATO (with more on its way) and getting stronger.
Russia has a maximum four weeks left to make gains before they will start being in serious trouble. At present they are stalemated - if not being pushed back.
https://twitter.com/BrynnTannehill/status/1524760462180683776
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Worthwhile revisting this post from a couple of weeks back I think.
If you put this together with what BST & RD have posted today - then the current Russian tactics to go as hard as they can, to sieze as much as they can, whilst they can, begin to make a lot more sense.
Really interesting (although long) assessment of current state of play in Ukraine by a US defence analyist.
Well worth a read of it all but spoiler alert, Russians have used up their best equipment and best troops and are growing weaker. Ukraine has lost few troops and is getting better and better equipment from NATO (with more on its way) and getting stronger.
Russia has a maximum four weeks left to make gains before they will start being in serious trouble. At present they are stalemated - if not being pushed back.
https://twitter.com/BrynnTannehill/status/1524760462180683776
Things could well change if and when the new supplies make it to the frontliine. We'll see.
Not sure Russia has been upping it's efforts that much. They seem to have been consistent with heavy shelling of Ukraine positions for some time. The effects of that appear to be working in terms of territory gains as can be seen at several locations.
One interesting region is north of Kharkiv where Russia withdrew significantly and seemed to go relatively quiet. Over recent days that region has heated up. Possibly it's to keep Ukraine troops tied down, or maybe now Ukraines have advanced they are in more vulnerable positions? Obviously Ukraine will not be wanting to lose Kharkiv.
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Entirely missing the point BRR.
Ukraine has a supply pipeline to restore losses. Russia is rapidly running down its ground-based hardware to the point that it will have little effective ground warfare making capability left. And with an economy about the size of Spain's, but three times as many mouths to feed, it's going to be a generation-long job at least to replace these losses.
And for what? To attempt to satisfy the ego of a fascist thug.
I don't think that supply line is working effectively yet.
On the other hand Russia has brought up some v modern equipment as well as the loudly reported by westrn media supply of ancient tanks - though your media probably didn't specifiy how those tanks have been modernised?
So I take it you haven't a Scooby what the Ukraine losses are?
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The losses will be heavy , on every level . That's not the point though is it . Putin sold his nation a cakewalk and now months in they might be down half their tanks and lord knows how many men as they are entrenched in the worst fighting for 70 odd yrs There's no one going to rushing ( at least formally) to help financially assist Russia rebuild as there will be and is with Ukraine. Is there a tipping point coming ?
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How I understand it is that currently Russia is making gains in Dontesk.
It's doing this by chucking everything at it. The artillery bombardment is being effective because, they have a lot of it and Ukraine doesn't have enough weapons with a long enough range to deal with it. Ukraine is currently losing a lot of troops.
Ukraine is also running low on the high tech anti tank systems. They have been using them up at a phenomenal rate.
As I understand it the US is commited to supply Ukraine with better artillery but they need time to supply and train.
I'm sure the manufacturers of NLAW and javelins will be working flat out.
So it's very much a war of attrition but I would assume Ukraine is in a better position with its resupply of weapons.
Putin believes the west can't afford to keep this up and when the energy crisis hits hard in the winter Europe will want peace.
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I see Putins attack dog Lavrov has said Putin is well, given he’s a lying bas**rd and they’ve had months now to put out he is well, I’d interpret Lavrov’s words as Putin is seriously ill
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I suppose the supply of semiconductors from China might be an issue for both sides.
Also Putin had the option of declaring war, introducing conscription and throwing even more manpower at it.
Currently it is believed Russia is struggling to relieve war weary troops.
It seems at the moment it's a question of holding on until more equipment arrives.
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Entirely missing the point BRR.
Ukraine has a supply pipeline to restore losses. Russia is rapidly running down its ground-based hardware to the point that it will have little effective ground warfare making capability left. And with an economy about the size of Spain's, but three times as many mouths to feed, it's going to be a generation-long job at least to replace these losses.
And for what? To attempt to satisfy the ego of a fascist thug.
I don't think that supply line is working effectively yet.
On the other hand Russia has brought up some v modern equipment as well as the loudly reported by westrn media supply of ancient tanks - though your media probably didn't specifiy how those tanks have been modernised?
So I take it you haven't a Scooby what the Ukraine losses are?
Better sights and aiming equipment, a bit of a refurb seems to be it.
One problem with the old tanks is they use a different size shell. A logistical nightmare for the Russians.
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I would also hazard a guess that it suits the Ukraine narrative just now to be seen to be on the back foot in allowing a certain type tactical fall back. They need this time frame to put pressure on the flaky EU to continue with the arms shipments, they know they can rely on the US and the UK but they need the whole developed world to stay on side.
If this is the case then provided they can hold out personnel wise they will eventually get the kit they require and will have a fighting chance of matching the Russians and getting lost ground back, by this stage the Russians will be down to the cadet army and whatever kit they have left, can't see anyone admitting to resupply them.
Of course if the EU don't pull their weight then all bets are off and i could see some sort of negotiation coming into affect with the Russians holding onto their gains. If this was so then i can't see how the US and UK could ever trust the EU again as a unified force for anything. Strange times.
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Yep,
I can see this reaffirming the UK/US relationship.
I think this winter the UK will be shipping in American gas to keep the lights on. As Norway is increasingly called upon to divert gas supplies from the UK to the continent.
And the UK has the terminals already in place to accept shipped Nat gas, unlike Germany.
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I see Putin's stooge (and pal of Johnson and Farage) Orban is stiffing the EU attempts to come to an agreement in banning Putin's oil and gas.
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https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1531012721713504257?t=_8Z3O54cxrNCbD-HhmxX5Q&s=19
Listening to this piece of work gives you a clear indication of where these people are coming from,
Straight from the 19th century, this backward country will never achieve anything with the likes of this blowhard.
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Thank you DD. That tells us all we need to know doesn't it? I really don't care if NATO or the EU or anybody else helped stir up this trouble. The point is that tossers like this, behaving, and even thinking, like troglodytes, do not deserve to survive. Simples.
BobG
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Thank you DD. That tells us all we need to know doesn't it? I really don't care if NATO or the EU or anybody else helped stir up this trouble. The point is that tossers like this, behaving, and even thinking, like troglodytes, do not deserve to survive. Simples.
BobG
I'm more than surprised that you don't care.
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How I understand it is that currently Russia is making gains in Dontesk.
It's doing this by chucking everything at it. The artillery bombardment is being effective because, they have a lot of it and Ukraine doesn't have enough weapons with a long enough range to deal with it. Ukraine is currently losing a lot of troops.
Ukraine is also running low on the high tech anti tank systems. They have been using them up at a phenomenal rate.
As I understand it the US is commited to supply Ukraine with better artillery but they need time to supply and train.
I'm sure the manufacturers of NLAW and javelins will be working flat out.
So it's very much a war of attrition but I would assume Ukraine is in a better position with its resupply of weapons.
Putin believes the west can't afford to keep this up and when the energy crisis hits hard in the winter Europe will want peace.
I don't think it's a ploy by Ukraine to fall back. They just are losing ground as Russia asserts itself. Falling back can gain momentum, that is surely why they'll do all to avoid that.
The re supplies will be crucial. Will Russia target the routes? Will supplies actually be sent soon enough? How much of the re supplies are hopeful promises?
I'm sure Russia will have a limit on what it can chuck at Ukraine, who knows what that will be.
Meanwhile, behind the nationalistic blag from both sides, it doesnt seem there's much movement in establishing mutual grounds for a ceasefire or peace. I don't see the Ukraines being much the player there, it's EU/NATO who have their own interests and will refuse to budge as Ukraine bleeds.
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"Bothsides". The bone idle argument approach des nos jours.
Split the "nationalistic blag from both sides" into the differences between the two sides.
One side is blagging nationalistically about its historic right to obliterate the very existence of an independent neighbour. It is doing that by obliterating city after city on that nation's soil.
The other "nationalistic blag" is a desperate fight for the very survival of a people as a free, independent entity.
But yeah. Bothsides.
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The tactics Russia is using to gain ground appear to be horrific.
Shell the target for 3 or 4 hours, then mount a ground attack looking for a breakthrough. When they all been killed start the shelling again.
It's like 1945, Putin is prepared to try to take this land with the blood of Russia's youth.
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The tactics Russia is using to gain ground appear to be horrific.
Shell the target for 3 or 4 hours, then mount a ground attack looking for a breakthrough. When they all been killed start the shelling again.
It's like 1945, Putin is prepared to try to take this land with the blood of Russia's youth.
Kinda what Ukraine was doing to the Donbas before Russia officially joined in.
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"Bothsides". The bone idle argument approach des nos jours.
Split the "nationalistic blag from both sides" into the differences between the two sides.
One side is blagging nationalistically about its historic right to obliterate the very existence of "Bothsides". The bone idle argument approach des nos jours.
Split the "nationalistic blag from both sides" into the differences between the two sides.
One side is blagging nationalistically about its historic right to obliterate the very existence of an independent neighbour. It is doing that by obliterating city after city on that nation's soil.
The other "nationalistic blag" is a desperate fight for the very survival of a people as a free, independent entity.
But yeah. Bothsides.
But yeah. Bothsides.
The black and white world of BST.
Ukraine is obliterating towns too, or are they using smart bombs aimed just at Russians?
Does the Ukraine nationalism include just the people supporting the Coup?
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The tactics Russia is using to gain ground appear to be horrific.
Shell the target for 3 or 4 hours, then mount a ground attack looking for a breakthrough. When they all been killed start the shelling again.
It's like 1945, Putin is prepared to try to take this land with the blood of Russia's youth.
Kinda what Ukraine was doing to the Donbas before Russia officially joined in.
Not really, before invasion there was a kind of trench warfare with sporadic outbursts of fighting, taking some 14,000 lives over 8 years.
The Russian invasion escalated the scale of the conflict immensely.
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#bothsides
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“Wisdom accepts that all things have two sides” - Carl Jung
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Yep. They do. You're misunderstanding the concept of bothsidesism though which is not the same thing.
Accepting that there are always two sides doesn't mean lazily assuming a false equivalence.
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Very true
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Talking of both sides
It's worth remembering the Donbas separatists had Russian backing all along, offering training and weapons, there's evidence the Russians were supplying manpower too.
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Including the Russian SAM that brought down a Malaysian airliner.
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Russia has held more than an ambition to re-assimilate Ukraine into their collective for many years under Putin - well before Crimea. The intention is undoubtedly the same for Moldova - hence the partial occupation of that country.
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Including the Russian SAM that brought down a Malaysian airliner.
Your analysis of that incident being?
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Let me guess, it was actually the Ukrainians who shot down that aircraft to blame on the Russians.
Putin is a really good guy just deeply misunderstood, it's just all these really unfortunate things happen that the world blames on him. None of it is fair
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Including the Russian SAM that brought down a Malaysian airliner.
Your analysis of that incident being?
Russian bot at work? Bloody hell, they get everywhere.
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&quot;Bothsides&quot;. The bone idle argument approach des nos jours.
Split the &quot;nationalistic blag from both sides&quot; into the differences between the two sides.
One side is blagging nationalistically about its historic right to obliterate the very existence of &quot;Bothsides&quot;. The bone idle argument approach des nos jours.
Split the &quot;nationalistic blag from both sides&quot; into the differences between the two sides.
One side is blagging nationalistically about its historic right to obliterate the very existence of an independent neighbour. It is doing that by obliterating city after city on that nation's soil.
The other &quot;nationalistic blag&quot; is a desperate fight for the very survival of a people as a free, independent entity.
But yeah. Bothsides.
But yeah. Bothsides.
The black and white world of BST.
Ukraine is obliterating towns too, or are they using smart bombs aimed just at Russians?
Does the Ukraine nationalism include just the people supporting the Coup?
Which towns are Ukraine 'obliterating'?
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&amp;quot;Bothsides&amp;quot;. The bone idle argument approach des nos jours.
Split the &amp;quot;nationalistic blag from both sides&amp;quot; into the differences between the two sides.
One side is blagging nationalistically about its historic right to obliterate the very existence of &amp;quot;Bothsides&amp;quot;. The bone idle argument approach des nos jours.
Split the &amp;quot;nationalistic blag from both sides&amp;quot; into the differences between the two sides.
One side is blagging nationalistically about its historic right to obliterate the very existence of an independent neighbour. It is doing that by obliterating city after city on that nation's soil.
The other &amp;quot;nationalistic blag&amp;quot; is a desperate fight for the very survival of a people as a free, independent entity.
But yeah. Bothsides.
But yeah. Bothsides.
The black and white world of BST.
Ukraine is obliterating towns too, or are they using smart bombs aimed just at Russians?
Does the Ukraine nationalism include just the people supporting the Coup?
Which towns are Ukraine 'obliterating'?
Oh yeah, I forgot, Ukraine is only using pretty flags and flowers in there attempts to deal with Russians, or is it they have ultra smart bombs that don't damage buildings or civilians just Russian soldiers, or maybe they ask Russians to go into the fields to get blown up. Jeeze!
And Mariupol for one.
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Let me get this right BRR.
UKRAINE obliterated Mariupol?
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Let me get this right BRR.
UKRAINE obliterated Mariupol?
You love to ask a lot of questions but infecund on the answering. But did expect you to get triggered by this one, so.... in the spirit of demonstrating answering.....
Fire went both ways, or did the Ukraines just shout at the Russians? Ukraine snipers hanging out in the buildings sometimes with their human shields taken at gun point, sometimes with volunteer ones (hmmmm....), sometimes without any. Russians should have done the decent thing and asked the Ukraines to step outside.
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Ukraine obliterated Mariupol by firing rifles with human shieds.
That's not equivalence - it's just Kremlin propoganda - pure and simple.
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Yes the Kremlin does put about these stories of Ukrainian Nazis using human shields.
But then we have actual footage of insanely heroic Ukrainian helicopter pilots flying at almost ground level to avoid anti-aircraft fire. Day after day shipping food and ammo in to Avostal and taking wounded away. That is an incredibly selfless act and some lost their lives doing it.
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Let me get this right BRR.
UKRAINE obliterated Mariupol?
You love to ask a lot of questions but infecund on the answering. But did expect you to get triggered by this one, so.... in the spirit of demonstrating answering.....
Fire went both ways, or did the Ukraines just shout at the Russians? Ukraine snipers hanging out in the buildings sometimes with their human shields taken at gun point, sometimes with volunteer ones (hmmmm....), sometimes without any. Russians should have done the decent thing and asked the Ukraines to step outside.
Russia should have done the decent thing and not invaded a Sovereign Country Mr Lavrov
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Let me get this right BRR.
UKRAINE obliterated Mariupol?
You love to ask a lot of questions but infecund on the answering. But did expect you to get triggered by this one, so.... in the spirit of demonstrating answering.....
Fire went both ways, or did the Ukraines just shout at the Russians? Ukraine snipers hanging out in the buildings sometimes with their human shields taken at gun point, sometimes with volunteer ones (hmmmm....), sometimes without any. Russians should have done the decent thing and asked the Ukraines to step outside.
#bothsides
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The Guardian chief economics correspondent is making the point that Russia is winning the economic war. I think he's probably right.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/jun/02/russia-economic-war-ukraine-food-fuel-price-vladimir-putin
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RD.
Larry Elliott regularly provides us with strong evidence of his lack of understanding of basic economics. He's been doing it over Brexit for years. He's doing it here.
He's arguing.
1) Russian gas and oil has been sidelined on world markets.
2) As a result, world supply has been reduced.
3) As a result of THAT, the price has gone up.
4) Russia has capitalised on that by selling its oil and gas to China.
Cause: Western sanctions
Effect: Russia gets richer.
A cursory look at that exposes the total lack of logic in his argument. How can the price of oil go up because of Russian oil being excluded from the market, if Russian oil is actually being sold.
Elliott isn't an economist. He's a far-Left polemicist regularly chucking rocks at The West.
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The price of oil can go up if Russia limits supply.
They can't make as much as they were selling it to the Europeans but they can still make money selling it to alternative sources can't they? (They are giving good deals to the chinese and Indians)
Its partly to do with geography, I guess Russia can more easily pump to China and India than Europe can ship supplies from the Middle East and North America.
Both sides are suffering but which is suffering more?
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According to this Russian output has been dropping, as has the crude oil price and is expected to drop further after OPEC's announcement today.
Dunno, its not my area of expertese - but they can't both be right.
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/02/energy/oil-prices-opec-russia/index.html
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If as that suggests OPEC ramps up its production of hydrocarbons then inflation will be limited.
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The price of oil can go up if Russia limits supply.
They can't make as much as they were selling it to the Europeans but they can still make money selling it to alternative sources can't they? (They are giving good deals to the chinese and Indians)
Its partly to do with geography, I guess Russia can more easily pump to China and India than Europe can ship supplies from the Middle East and North America.
Both sides are suffering but which is suffering more?
Russia cannot by definition make more money by selling less because the price has gone up because they are selling less. It's totally illogical.
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The price of oil can go up if Russia limits supply.
They can't make as much as they were selling it to the Europeans but they can still make money selling it to alternative sources can't they? (They are giving good deals to the chinese and Indians)
Its partly to do with geography, I guess Russia can more easily pump to China and India than Europe can ship supplies from the Middle East and North America.
Both sides are suffering but which is suffering more?
Russia cannot by definition make more money by selling less because the price has gone up because they are selling less. It's totally illogical.
I'm not suggesting they are making more money.
Just that they are still able to have an income.
Russia's income is reduced no doubt.
At the same time the west is suffering too.
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this is from April 14
https://www.businessinsider.com/russian-oil-sales-up-despite-massive-sanctions-2022-4#:~:text=Despite%20massive%20sanctions%20from%20the,with%20China%2C%20and%20soaring%20prices.
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The price of oil can go up if Russia limits supply.
They can't make as much as they were selling it to the Europeans but they can still make money selling it to alternative sources can't they? (They are giving good deals to the chinese and Indians)
Its partly to do with geography, I guess Russia can more easily pump to China and India than Europe can ship supplies from the Middle East and North America.
Both sides are suffering but which is suffering more?
Russia cannot by definition make more money by selling less because the price has gone up because they are selling less. It's totally illogical.
I'm not suggesting they are making more money.
Just that they are still able to have an income.
Russia's income is reduced no doubt.
At the same time the west is suffering too.
RD.
In not saying you are saying Russia is making more money because of the sanctions. But that's precisely what Elliott is saying.
"the sanctions have had the perverse effect of driving up the cost of Russia’s oil and gas exports, massively boosting its trade balance and financing its war effort."
No-one who writes nonsense like that should ever be listened to on the subject of economics again.
If Russia is making more money from oil, it is because other factors have driven up the price of their oil. They cannot, by definition, make more money from selling oil because some countries refuse to buy their oil.
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Yes the Kremlin does put about these stories of Ukrainian Nazis using human shields.
But then we have actual footage of insanely heroic Ukrainian helicopter pilots flying at almost ground level to avoid anti-aircraft fire. Day after day shipping food and ammo in to Avostal and taking wounded away. That is an incredibly selfless act and some lost their lives doing it.
They may or may not refer to them as Nazis - the ones with Nazi tattoos probs are Nazis - but the point is Ukraines did and do use human shields. Desperate measures to stay alive for them. Its not so much Kremlin news as deliberately not western media news as it doesn't fit the propaganda narrative of goodies v baddies. Really, did you even believe that trash at primary school?
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RD
Tony Yates is one of my go-to people for cutting through complex issues.
Here's his take on Elliott's piece.
https://mobile.twitter.com/t0nyyates/status/1532706125669355521
One excellent insight. Russia's current account surplus has boomed because they are still getting money for oil, but they can't spend it on stuff they want to buy from the West because of sanctions. Which is precisely the point of sanctions - to undermine the effectiveness of the Russian economy.
Edit: that link oddly doesn't show the whole thread.
This one starts at a later tweet but does show the whole thread. If you're interested (and it is a brilliant take down) use this link then scroll up to the start of the thread.
https://mobile.twitter.com/t0nyyates/status/1532713591027208194
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Let me get this right BRR.
UKRAINE obliterated Mariupol?
You love to ask a lot of questions but infecund on the answering. But did expect you to get triggered by this one, so.... in the spirit of demonstrating answering.....
Fire went both ways, or did the Ukraines just shout at the Russians? Ukraine snipers hanging out in the buildings sometimes with their human shields taken at gun point, sometimes with volunteer ones (hmmmm....), sometimes without any. Russians should have done the decent thing and asked the Ukraines to step outside.
#bothsides
#Blithe rhetoric
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BRR.
You equate:
- A country invading another one and launching artillery attacks on urban areas
With
- The second country fighting in urban areas to stop the invader.
You say in those circumstances, the attacked country is responsible for the destruction of its own cities.
And you expect to be taken seriously, and your opinions respected?
Honestly?
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Yes the Kremlin does put about these stories of Ukrainian Nazis using human shields.
But then we have actual footage of insanely heroic Ukrainian helicopter pilots flying at almost ground level to avoid anti-aircraft fire. Day after day shipping food and ammo in to Avostal and taking wounded away. That is an incredibly selfless act and some lost their lives doing it.
They may or may not refer to them as Nazis - the ones with Nazi tattoos probs are Nazis - but the point is Ukraines did and do use human shields. Desperate measures to stay alive for them. Its not so much Kremlin news as deliberately not western media news as it doesn't fit the propaganda narrative of goodies v baddies. Really, did you even believe that trash at primary school?
How could the Ukrainians use human shields against an army for whom human life is so valuless?
This is an army that targeted a shelter full of innocent civilians.
This is an army that has units dedicated to shooting their own troops if they are not moving forward.
This is an army that will rape babies and old women to prove how fierce they are.
Any human shield would be rapidly executed.
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BRR If it's not being reported how do you know about it?
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As an apologist for a disgraceful regime he's not making a very strong case for it.
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BRR.
You equate:
- A country invading another one and launching artillery attacks on urban areas
With
- The second country fighting in urban areas to stop the invader.
You say in those circumstances, the attacked country is responsible for the destruction of its own cities.
And you expect to be taken seriously, and your opinions respected?
Honestly?
Nah, the equating is your fantasy, as is so much.
I'm simply saying Ukraines are doing nasty stuff out there too, it's far from goodies v baddies as per your pro western fairy tales.
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Yes the Kremlin does put about these stories of Ukrainian Nazis using human shields.
But then we have actual footage of insanely heroic Ukrainian helicopter pilots flying at almost ground level to avoid anti-aircraft fire. Day after day shipping food and ammo in to Avostal and taking wounded away. That is an incredibly selfless act and some lost their lives doing it.
They may or may not refer to them as Nazis - the ones with Nazi tattoos probs are Nazis - but the point is Ukraines did and do use human shields. Desperate measures to stay alive for them. Its not so much Kremlin news as deliberately not western media news as it doesn't fit the propaganda narrative of goodies v baddies. Really, did you even believe that trash at primary school?
How could the Ukrainians use human shields against an army for whom human life is so valuless?
This is an army that targeted a shelter full of innocent civilians.
This is an army that has units dedicated to shooting their own troops if they are not moving forward.
This is an army that will rape babies and old women to prove how fierce they are.
Any human shield would be rapidly executed.
Oh dear....
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BRR If it's not being reported how do you know about it?
There's plenty out there if you look. Just not on your state censored news feeds and pro western papers and TV.
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As an apologist for a disgraceful regime he's not making a very strong case for it.
Yawn. Go lick your masters feet.
No apologising, both sides in this war are evil, both fighting for power and control over people and resources, and playing a global game of chess, the Ukraines are pawns. Zelensky is playing the part of King pawn perfectly. If you think it's Russia v Ukraine, you really have fallen out the coconut tree.
I'm just saying there is another side to all the censored news. Billy One Side might argue against that.
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The Ukranians are pawns in as such as they have been invaded by a far superior foreign power - a nuclear armed one that took away Ukraine's own nuclear weapons and threated to use theirs on any country that assisted them - whose leader has stated on several occassions he does not believe they should exisit as a sovereign, independent country.
In your desparate attempt to put across 'both sides' you are only putting one side - the fascist invaders.
Not a good look.
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This defence of Russia and Putin is almost appeasement to be honest. It might be a different form, but it's outcome is identical.
BobG
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The Ukranians are pawns in as such as they have been invaded by a far superior foreign power - a nuclear armed one that took away Ukraine's own nuclear weapons and threated to use theirs on any country that assisted them - whose leader has stated on several occassions he does not believe they should exisit as a sovereign, independent country.
In your desparate attempt to put across 'both sides' you are only putting one side - the fascist invaders.
Not a good look.
Another one sider. Interesting how you go back to nuclear arms being taken, and miss out the US pushing for control on Russia's doorstep, indeed the whole world, having bern responsible for how many undemocratic insurrection and coups? And you think they're not at least equally to blame here, mere saints sat rooting for the poor innocents.
And the EU grabbing a slice of the pie. Totally freedom living innocents too? Come on.
I've said several times how I think Russia is wrong here. The US, EU too. Open your eyes.
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If you're going to get BRR's stance, you have to understand the journey that the Western Far Left has been on this past 50 years.
They've always been anti-West, but this used to be a secondary issue. They used to be fervently pro-Communist. Then the information came out about the bestial abuses under Soviet communism, and the systemic inefficiency of the system.
After that, no-one could support Soviet communism. So the Western Far Left had nothing to fall back on but hatred of the West.
That has festered and fermented for a generation. The concept has hardened that if anything is wrong in the world, it's the fault of America, Britain, the EU, NATO or multinational companies.
So the Western Far Left supported Brexit. It saw COVID as pharma conspiracy. It was against the Iraq war, sure, but when Russia takes the horror of war in that region to another level, barely a peep.
It's inevitable that the Western Far Left will insist that NATO is to blame for Ukraine. Because that is what the ideology demands. And if that means effectively minimising the war crimes of a fascist imperialist, so be it.
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BST, this is nothing to do with the far left. Simple logic shows what's happening. No idea where you're coming from, you never say, bar regurgitate Pro establishment propaganda. And one sided establishment of course. This is Russia, US and moreso, all those that pull their strings. China also very involved. You wave the flag of the innocents, the invaded, and... and what? Give the thumbs up to other imperialism.
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BRR If it's not being reported how do you know about it?
There's plenty out there if you look. Just not on your state censored news feeds and pro western papers and TV.
YOUR? Do you not bother with Western media? Give me an idea of where I should look to find this anti Ukraine news from your sources please
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Presumably TASS, Novosti and Pravda Raven...
BobG
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Presumably TASS, Novosti and Pravda Raven...
BobG
Nope.
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BRR If it's not being reported how do you know about it?
There's plenty out there if you look. Just not on your state censored news feeds and pro western papers and TV.
YOUR? Do you not bother with Western media? Give me an idea of where I should look to find this anti Ukraine news from your sources please
I was using "your" colloquially, meaning "ones". I read it.
Plenty of sources of news out there - Google works. Rumble is interesting.
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BRR If it's not being reported how do you know about it?
There's plenty out there if you look. Just not on your state censored news feeds and pro western papers and TV.
YOUR? Do you not bother with Western media? Give me an idea of where I should look to find this anti Ukraine news from your sources please
I was using "your" colloquially, meaning "ones". I read it.
Plenty of sources of news out there - Google works. Rumble is interesting.
Do the one's pro-russia have any gravitas, do you know who owns them, why can't you share links with the rest of us?
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Students accuse lecturer of sharing Russia war lies https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-61597405
Interesting news story. Was he promoting Russian propaganda or getting his students not to take the line told to them by authority?
I’ve always adhered to Stiff Little Fingers advice in their explosive 1978 song ‘Suspect Device =
‘Don’t believe them
Don’t believe them
I tell ya question everything you’re told.
Just take a look around you
At the bitterness and spite.
Why can’t we take over
And try to put it right’.
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BRR If it's not being reported how do you know about it?
There's plenty out there if you look. Just not on your state censored news feeds and pro western papers and TV.
YOUR? Do you not bother with Western media? Give me an idea of where I should look to find this anti Ukraine news from your sources please
I was using "your" colloquially, meaning "ones". I read it.
Plenty of sources of news out there - Google works. Rumble is interesting.
It's all starting to make sense...
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BRR If it's not being reported how do you know about it?
There's plenty out there if you look. Just not on your state censored news feeds and pro western papers and TV.
YOUR? Do you not bother with Western media? Give me an idea of where I should look to find this anti Ukraine news from your sources please
I was using "your" colloquially, meaning "ones". I read it.
Plenty of sources of news out there - Google works. Rumble is interesting.
Do the one's pro-russia have any gravitas, do you know who owns them, why can't you share links with the rest of us?
Who owns the BBC, The Times, Sky, etc? Everyone has a motivation for producing their report.
Im not linking any one as you'll focus on just that. Easy peasy to find. Some v small scale, some like Russia Today.
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BRR If it's not being reported how do you know about it?
There's plenty out there if you look. Just not on your state censored news feeds and pro western papers and TV.
YOUR? Do you not bother with Western media? Give me an idea of where I should look to find this anti Ukraine news from your sources please
I was using &quot;your&quot; colloquially, meaning &quot;ones&quot;. I read it.
Plenty of sources of news out there - Google works. Rumble is interesting.
It's all starting to make sense...
You're not.
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BRR If it's not being reported how do you know about it?
There's plenty out there if you look. Just not on your state censored news feeds and pro western papers and TV.
YOUR? Do you not bother with Western media? Give me an idea of where I should look to find this anti Ukraine news from your sources please
I was using &amp;quot;your&amp;quot; colloquially, meaning &amp;quot;ones&amp;quot;. I read it.
Plenty of sources of news out there - Google works. Rumble is interesting.
It's all starting to make sense...
You're not.
BRR If it's not being reported how do you know about it?
There's plenty out there if you look. Just not on your state censored news feeds and pro western papers and TV.
YOUR? Do you not bother with Western media? Give me an idea of where I should look to find this anti Ukraine news from your sources please
I was using "your" colloquially, meaning "ones". I read it.
Plenty of sources of news out there - Google works. Rumble is interesting.
Do the one's pro-russia have any gravitas, do you know who owns them, why can't you share links with the rest of us?
Who owns the BBC, The Times, Sky, etc? Everyone has a motivation for producing their report.
Im not linking any one as you'll focus on just that. Easy peasy to find. Some v small scale, some like Russia Today.
All that information about who owns what in the 'regular' media is readily available, all the stuff you quote could be emails between you and your neighbour.
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BRR If it's not being reported how do you know about it?
There's plenty out there if you look. Just not on your state censored news feeds and pro western papers and TV.
YOUR? Do you not bother with Western media? Give me an idea of where I should look to find this anti Ukraine news from your sources please
I was using &amp;quot;your&amp;quot; colloquially, meaning &amp;quot;ones&amp;quot;. I read it.
Plenty of sources of news out there - Google works. Rumble is interesting.
It's all starting to make sense...
You're not.
Rumble.
Platform of choice for far right gobshites from Donald Trump to Dan Bongino.
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BRR If it's not being reported how do you know about it?
There's plenty out there if you look. Just not on your state censored news feeds and pro western papers and TV.
YOUR? Do you not bother with Western media? Give me an idea of where I should look to find this anti Ukraine news from your sources please
I was using &amp;amp;quot;your&amp;amp;quot; colloquially, meaning &amp;amp;quot;ones&amp;amp;quot;. I read it.
Plenty of sources of news out there - Google works. Rumble is interesting.
It's all starting to make sense...
You're not.
Rumble.
Platform of choice for far right gobshites from Donald Trump to Dan Bongino.
Generalising like that makes you look daft.
Why soooo much rhetoric?
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BRR If it's not being reported how do you know about it?
There's plenty out there if you look. Just not on your state censored news feeds and pro western papers and TV.
YOUR? Do you not bother with Western media? Give me an idea of where I should look to find this anti Ukraine news from your sources please
I was using &amp;amp;quot;your&amp;amp;quot; colloquially, meaning &amp;amp;quot;ones&amp;amp;quot;. I read it.
Plenty of sources of news out there - Google works. Rumble is interesting.
It's all starting to make sense...
You're not.
Rumble.
Platform of choice for far right gobshites from Donald Trump to Dan Bongino.
Twitter is the complete opposite yet you quote from it regularly
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BRR.
Generalisation? It's just a fact. People who got bombed off Twitter for repeatedly posting bullshit, took their bullshit to Rumble because it doesn't have a bullshit filter.
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BRR.
Generalisation? It's just a fact. People who got bombed off Twitter for repeatedly posting bullshit, took their bullshit to Rumble because it doesn't have a bullshit filter.
And Twitter, FB, and YouTube are censored by the establishment fascists. Tricky innit?
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Ahh. The Establishment! Had to come up in this discussion sometime.
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Ahh. The Establishment! Had to come up in this discussion sometime.
What would you call it? Your investment opportunity?
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Ahh. The Establishment! Had to come up in this discussion sometime.
What would you call it? Your investment opportunity?
I think any prospect of a sensible discussion with you in this topic has departed on the last bus out of town.
Have fun.
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Ahh. The Establishment! Had to come up in this discussion sometime.
What would you call it? Your investment opportunity?
I think any prospect of a sensible discussion with you in this topic has departed on the last bus out of town.
Have fun.
Hey, you've had a personal dig at me many a time. You fail to answer many questions, notably here. I just don't get how you are so pro establishment on the one hand and anti establishment on the other. Why?
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I see today the Dombass separatists have paraded two Englishmen fighting in the Ukrainian army as guilty of "terrorism" in show trials, Looks like these two signed up before the war started and were captured during the surrender in Mariupol,in effect just normal soldiers. The fact that he Russians have allowed this to take place demonstrates the contempt they hold for universal rights in a theater of war.
But then what did we really expect from this loathsome regime who act like they want to revert back to the dark ages, looks like they may get their wish very soon.
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The outcome of this trial will have been decided by Putin himself before it even began.
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The outcome of this trial will have been decided by Putin himself before it even began.
True, but that's the bit i don't get, Putin of old was a very canny individual, he analysed every outcome and answer to an issues countless times to see that he got the most mileage out of it, this version just looks and sounds like a clueless version of himself. Stalin and Brezhnev will be turning in their mausoleum.
He must have worse ailments than we are led to believe.
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The outcome of this trial will have been decided by Putin himself before it even began.
True, but that's the bit i don't get, Putin of old was a very canny individual, he analysed every outcome and answer to an issues countless times to see that he got the most mileage out of it, this version just looks and sounds like a clueless version of himself. Stalin and Brezhnev will be turning in their mausoleum.
He must have worse ailments than we are led to believe.
Depends what you're reading about him and his actions - presumably the usual?
As for the two Brits, they went over there to fight in the Donbass, so not before the war.
Mercenaries they are. And then Russia apparently has a cohort of mercenaries. I've no problem with mercenaries getting bumped off if captured or whatever, nasty little arseholes in general, lowest of the low. Shame the leaders don't get the same treatment but such is the mess of society in general, always the poorest get shafted.
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The outcome of this trial will have been decided by Putin himself before it even began.
True, but that's the bit i don't get, Putin of old was a very canny individual, he analysed every outcome and answer to an issues countless times to see that he got the most mileage out of it, this version just looks and sounds like a clueless version of himself. Stalin and Brezhnev will be turning in their mausoleum.
He must have worse ailments than we are led to believe.
Depends what you're reading about him and his actions - presumably the usual?
As for the two Brits, they went over there to fight in the Donbass, so not before the war.
Mercenaries they are. And then Russia apparently has a cohort of mercenaries. I've no problem with mercenaries getting bumped off if captured or whatever, nasty little arseholes in general, lowest of the low. Shame the leaders don't get the same treatment but such is the mess of society in general, always the poorest get shafted.
They both live in Ukraine, one is married to a Ukrainian, not sure about the other, they signed up with the Ukraine army!
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Seems like the revolting Russian regime are going to be using these prisoners of war for propaganda reasons and will draw it out for as long as possible, hoping that whist the world is talking about this they will not be noticing the blatant disregard for human life and following basic genuine regard for their opposition, (Geneva convention, ect)
But what did we expect when they basically have no regard for their own population and service personnel.
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I guess irrespective of the eventual outcome of the fighting, Putin has succesfully achieved two vastly important results:
1) He has fundamentally changed the politico-military- economic landscape in which he, and his succesors will have to operate, and,
2) He has made Russia and everything Riussian pariahs for a generation
I haven't knowingly bought anything Russian for 3 months now. If that is typical behaviour, then Russi and the Russians will feel its impact. The current oil boom will end, and what will they have left then?
BobG
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I don't buy that it's Putin that has caused that. And the adverse effects are far from being A Russian problem.
The situation has caused, and will cause more, hunger and poverty around the whole world. With that and the economic slump, mainly caused by covid management, that benefits the pariahs that feed off economic downturns - yep, the ever vampyric rich again.
It's also caused more money to flow into the pockets of those invested in the arms trade. Those able to milk the aid channelled to the Ukraine will be making billions.
China are more likely to take over Taiwan.
Loads more. You have to wonder why people are invested in all this? Or maybe it's glaringly obvious.
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Get yourself a new neighbour BRR he's selling you bum information.
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Ukraine war? I blame the Chinese for inventing gunpowder a thousand years ago. Putin is just an unfortunate, trapped by the inevitable consequences. And NATO.
You don't need to read any more analysis from the Far Left/Right. It's all summed up in the above.
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I don't buy that it's Putin that has caused that. And the adverse effects are far from being A Russian problem.
The situation has caused, and will cause more, hunger and poverty around the whole world. With that and the economic slump, mainly caused by covid management, that benefits the pariahs that feed off economic downturns - yep, the ever vampyric rich again.
BRR so literally you are saying poverty and hunger have caused a sovereign nation to invade another?
It's also caused more money to flow into the pockets of those invested in the arms trade. Those able to milk the aid channelled to the Ukraine will be making billions.
China are more likely to take over Taiwan.
Loads more. You have to wonder why people are invested in all this? Or maybe it's glaringly obvious.
-
I don't buy that it's Putin that has caused that. And the adverse effects are far from being A Russian problem.
The situation has caused, and will cause more, hunger and poverty around the whole world. With that and the economic slump, mainly caused by covid management, that benefits the pariahs that feed off economic downturns - yep, the ever vampyric rich again.
It's also caused more money to flow into the pockets of those invested in the arms trade. Those able to milk the aid channelled to the Ukraine will be making billions.
China are more likely to take over Taiwan.
Loads more. You have to wonder why people are invested in all this? Or maybe it's glaringly obvious.
Russia did not cause this, they will have also have adverse effects and it will only serve to benefit the vampyric rich.
Whilst the true extent of his wealth is not know it is widely estimated that the richest of these word vampyric rich is one Valdamir Putin - reputedly the world's richest man with a fortune of c$200 billion - mostly stolen from the Russian people as detailed in his books by Bill Browder.
Russia certainly caused a worldwide social and economic disaster - soley to benefit the wealth acquisition & fascist domination policies of Mr Putin. No more - no less.
https://fortune.com/2022/03/02/vladimir-putin-net-worth-2022/
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putin peter I think
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Ukraine war? I blame the Chinese for inventing gunpowder a thousand years ago. Putin is just an unfortunate, trapped by the inevitable consequences. And NATO.
You don't need to read any more analysis from the Far Left/Right. It's all summed up in the above.
More Billy Bullshit and "far" side confusion.
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Get yourself a new neighbour BRR he's selling you bum information.
She, not he, ya dinasaur.
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Dorothy's a dinosaur
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I don't buy that it's Putin that has caused that. And the adverse effects are far from being A Russian problem.
The situation has caused, and will cause more, hunger and poverty around the whole world. With that and the economic slump, mainly caused by covid management, that benefits the pariahs that feed off economic downturns - yep, the ever vampyric rich again.
It's also caused more money to flow into the pockets of those invested in the arms trade. Those able to milk the aid channelled to the Ukraine will be making billions.
China are more likely to take over Taiwan.
Loads more. You have to wonder why people are invested in all this? Or maybe it's glaringly obvious.
Russia did not cause this, they will have also have adverse effects and it will only serve to benefit the vampyric rich.
Whilst the true extent of his wealth is not know it is widely estimated that the richest of these word vampyric rich is one Valdamir Putin - reputedly the world's richest man with a fortune of c$200 billion - mostly stolen from the Russian people as detailed in his books by Bill Browder.
Russia certainly caused a worldwide social and economic disaster - soley to benefit the wealth acquisition & fascist domination policies of Mr Putin. No more - no less.
https://fortune.com/2022/03/02/vladimir-putin-net-worth-2022/
Putin may well be the richest, though I see there's a lot of hearsay in that. But yep, someone who has almost certainly sucked up the wealth of the poor and not so poor. I'm not sure how that absolves the other greedy ones, the one's pulling the strings of the US and UK and almost all other nations, and via that the EU and NATO. They are all evil in my mind, maybe not in yours? Why is that?
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BRR so literally you are saying poverty and hunger have caused a sovereign nation to invade another?
No, I'm saying that the invasion, and those involved in bringing the invasion to occur, have caused poverty worldwide most of which we are yet to see. Deaths from hunger, poverty suicide and poverty ill health, including here in the UK. It suits them to do so for obvious reasons. They even make fortunes from the simple use of arms in the war. They will make more in the reconstruction of Ukraine, whichever way things fall. They are spinning all kinds of stories to justify and so prolong the war - Russians and the West, with the Ukraine stuffed as pawns between that, except for the western backed Ukraine oligarchs who will be regaining their power, whilst licking the boots of their international backers.
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Ordo Ad Chao
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Ordo Ad Chao
Nice to meet you.
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https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/14/pope-francis-ukraine-war-provoked-russian-troops
Looks like the Pope has now got himself involved, apparently a head of state who is “a wise man who speaks little, a very wise man indeed" told him that "Nato were barking at the gates of Russia"
This could of been anyone as most heads of state are gobs on sticks so that rules them out, it could quite easily have been Putin himself.
Not sure it helps the pontiff getting involved, he need to be be careful when suggesting the conflict was "provoked" as he has a sizable flock in Ukraine unlike Russia.
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Ukraine has recieved only 10% of the weapons it has requested, according to the Defence Minister today:
https://twitter.com/olgatokariuk/status/1536763124774322176
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Ukraine is 'an existential threat to Russia, the Russian people, the Russian language' and should be 'put an end to once and for all' - one of Putin's top aides:
https://twitter.com/olgatokariuk/status/1536763124774322176
#butbothsides
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....Nato were barking at the gates of Russia....
I realise your point was primarily about the pope having an opinion, but within that are you suggesting NATO are not barking at the gates of Russia?
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Who wouldn't want a guard dog if they had Putin as a neighbour?
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This is interesting to hear. Such a variety of perspectives expressing so much, mainly that they just want to get on with life.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hhk8r7noUQw&t=858s
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Who wouldn't want a guard dog if they had Putin as a neighbour?
Putin maybe hates the barking not the neighbour? Seems you are saying that NATO were barking at the gates of Russia?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d1IdBuH0OOo
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Putin has been posturing, threatening, deploying, attacking, and murdering, for years and years. I'd certainly want a whole herd of guard dogs. Nuclear armed guard dogs!
BobG.
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The ignorance of history from the Far Left/Right is quite something.
They'd have to believe the ex-USSR/Warsaw Pact countries were forcibly taken over by a NATO intent on military action against Moscow. Whereas the fact is they queued up to join NATO the first chance they got, as an insurance against Russia. Because they know their history. And they know what Russia has ways done to weaker neighbours. Devoured them.
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The ignorance of history from the Far Left/Right is quite something.
They'd have to believe the ex-USSR/Warsaw Pact countries were forcibly taken over by a NATO intent on military action against Moscow. Whereas the fact is they queued up to join NATO the first chance they got, as an insurance against Russia. Because they know their history. And they know what Russia has ways done to weaker neighbours. Devoured them.
Agreed, however, this is more rhetoric from you. You know full well Ukraine is a different kettle of fish.
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I thought I remembered a notably succesful Polish anti Soviet security services plot from maybe 30 or 40 years ago. I was going to use it to illustrate the stunning and continuing hate/hate relationship between these two countries and therefore suggest that your point, Billy, is emphatically proven. Snag is, although I'm sure I've read about this somewhere or other, I can't find it on the net tonight. Maybe my search skills are just too shit..... Still, the multiple rapes of Poland by Russia are a pretty obvious reason why Poland would want to join NATO as soon as it possibly could.
BobG
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The ignorance of history from the Far Left/Right is quite something.
They'd have to believe the ex-USSR/Warsaw Pact countries were forcibly taken over by a NATO intent on military action against Moscow. Whereas the fact is they queued up to join NATO the first chance they got, as an insurance against Russia. Because they know their history. And they know what Russia has ways done to weaker neighbours. Devoured them.
Agreed, however, this is more rhetoric from you. You know full well Ukraine is a different kettle of fish.
By "rhetoric" do you mean "facts"?
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Out of consideration for two people I respect I have stayed out of this thread recently, despite having strong views on and experience of NATO. However I would like say a few things and pose some questions.
NATO was set up as a Defensive Alliance, with the cornerstone Article 5 only kicking when any country is attacked. Post 1989 major reviews took place and a changing in role was slowly agreed, allowing operations is places such as Bosnia, Kosovo and Afghanistan. Others are easily forgotten – e.g. Humanitarian Relief in Pakistan after an earthquake in 2005. The first emphasis is always on Peacekeeping and Humanitarian aid, although offensive operations have occasionally been undertaken:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NATO_operations
Note that for any operation to be initiated a unanimous vote by each member country’s political leader (or designated deputy) is required - every single nation has a veto. It is very difficult for any nation to railroad all the others into action – the US has failed, e.g in the first Gulf War when France said no. The war was actually fought by an ad-hoc coalition of nations, some NATO members and some not.
This makes NATO itself a very stable influence against any member nation’s potential aggressive ideas.
So my questions (to everyone, but particularly BRR) are:
• Do you believe that NATO has the ambition to militarily defeat Russia? That is do you believe that all 30 nations wish to vote for it and risk nuclear annihilation?
• Do you believe NATO is actually helping to calm down potentially aggressive thoughts in some member nations' Governments?
• Do you believe that Stoltenberg speaks for NATO or just himself?
On the other hand, do I believe that some NATO member nations would like to be more aggressive? Certainly, but often for internal political reasons.
IMHO NATO is the single most successful (and misunderstood) organisation since WW2. Putin doesn’t like it because it gets in the way of his territorial ambitions, not because he feels threatened by an attack from it. His recent comparison of himself with Peter the Great shows the level of those geographical ambitions and underscores why Finland and Sweden want to protect themselves. No-one wants to enter a war with Russia.
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"NATO is the single most successful (and misunderstood) organisation since WW2. Putin doesn’t like it because it gets in the way of his territorial ambitions, not because he feels threatened by an attack from it. "
This. In spades.
I'd make only one qualification to that, which I've pointed out several times before. In terms of European security, NATO has been part of a double act with the EU. NATO has been the guarantor of protection against external aggression. But it hasn't done much for the internal stability and democratic integrity of member states. NATO was happy to have countries as members despite them being military dictatorships (Spain, Portugal, Greece, Turkey) and despite major internal fighting bordering on localised civil wars breaking out (Northern Ireland, the Basque country) and despite NATO forces supporting if not actively engaging in a proxy ear against each other (Greece and Turkey over Cyprus).
None of those things have ever started within one or between two EU countries
I'm not convinced that NATO would have been able to maintain European stability without the EU. It might have maintained peace, but I suspect it would have been a harsher peace. Because, pragmatically, NATO on its own would have been prepared for nasty localised things to happen in member countries as long as that country stayed firm on the outward facing stance.
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Fully agree with that BST.
Edit: (after rereading your post a bit more carefully BST) I would replace
'NATO forces supporting if not actively engaging in a proxy war against each other (Greece and Turkey over Cyprus)'
with ' forces of two NATO member countries supporting if not actively engaging in a proxy war against each other (Greece and Turkey over Cyprus)'
Pedantic but IMHO a very important distinction, as I recall it was not approved by NATO as a NATO mission.
But I fully agree with what you are saying.
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I think you've been very generous to the EU there BST , as is your want. If the EU had been such a bulwark alongside NATO then we would of expected all of the constituent nation's to have coughed up the min 2% of GDP towards their NATO contribution, the fact that they (mainly)haven't and dont tells you a great deal about what the majority of the EU think about who is or should be providing the bulk of their security.
Its well known that some (talking about you France)pay very much lip service to NATO and only really engage when it suits them to or they have issues sorting out former colonies. The Germans still trade very much on their losers remorse and have used this excuse for too long now, as the biggest economy in the EU they should of by now been carrying a far greater load. They have new issues with the Eastern accession countries that are still bubbling over. The EU just does not do joined up thinking unless its on their terms.
The EU have also very much blinked with the current issues in Ukraine, as they usually do, national interests have come to the fore again and the big hitters have made their own personal decisions as to how they have come together as a unified force, The action that they now have agreed to is too little too late and is sustaining the lunatic in Russia and enabling him to bypass the full force of applied sanctions because of self interest.
Lets hope this conflict does not develop into a greater regional conflict because without the usual two to come to their aid the EU will be toast, the worst thing is they know this and will use it to ensure we are there again with the US to provide their security.
NATO has been and will continue to be the unifying force for this region, until such time as they stupidly agree with Macron and attempt to have their own Security force, outside of the umbrella of NATO or they manage to piss of the US to such an extent that they go full isolationist on them.
If that occurs then welcome to WW3 sooner rather than later.
These people take nothing from history and keep repeating the same errors over and over.
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Danum
Let me make clear that I do not support the concept of a European Army outside of NATO, and this has never been popular within NATO. Non-NATO members of the EU can all participate via the NATO Partnership for Peace Program.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_army
Where the EU has been and is complementary to NATO is in organising sanctions and showing political solidarity short of military involvement. With respect to that and to internal security IMHO BST has a very valid point. And Yes all nations, EU or otherwise (and several NATO members are not EU - Albania, Canada, Iceland, Montenegro, North Macedonia, Norway, Turkey, USA) could all do a better job of paying their 2% GDP
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It's just lovely on any discussion when knowledge rolls in over opinions. Cheers
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Danum
Let me make clear that I do not support the concept of a European Army outside of NATO, and this has never been popular within NATO. Non-NATO members of the EU can all participate via the NATO Partnership for Peace Program.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_army
Where the EU has been and is complementary to NATO is in organising sanctions and showing political solidarity short of military involvement. With respect to that and to internal security IMHO BST has a very valid point. And Yes all nations, EU or otherwise (and several NATO members are not EU - Albania, Canada, Iceland, Montenegro, North Macedonia, Norway, Turkey, USA) could all do a better job of paying their 2% GDP
Fair enough DU, i do hope the political solidarity holds out for the duration of this conflict.
My fear is that when this conflict drags on into and beyond next winter that the political solidarity has not given way to National expediency from certain EU nations, its already public knowledge that the French and Germans are not prepared to do the hard yards and are angling for a political settlement that will not be acceptable to the Ukraine or the majority of the Free world.
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Agreed Danum, and the continuity of political will to continue is equally valid and important for both EU and NATO.
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Agreed Danum, and the continuity of political will to continue is equally valid and important for both EU and NATO.
Agreed DU.
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The ignorance of history from the Far Left/Right is quite something.
They'd have to believe the ex-USSR/Warsaw Pact countries were forcibly taken over by a NATO intent on military action against Moscow. Whereas the fact is they queued up to join NATO the first chance they got, as an insurance against Russia. Because they know their history. And they know what Russia has ways done to weaker neighbours. Devoured them.
Agreed, however, this is more rhetoric from you. You know full well Ukraine is a different kettle of fish.
By "rhetoric" do you mean "facts"?
Using "facts" in an almost but not wholly in context way.
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DD
With respect you are not engaging with the point I'm making.
I fully appreciate that the EU hasn't been the main driver of European protection against EXTERNAL threats (USSR/Russia predominantly). That's been NATO'S role.
What the EU has done spectacularly well is to buttress the INTERNAL security of Europe. That's not been due to NATO.
Don't forget that Europe has, throughout history, been THE most dangerous place in the world. Driven by a combination of weakly unstable states disintegrating, and friction between strong states.
The EU has been central to getting those nations to be more stable and less aggressive. We have no more fascist dictatorships in western and central Europe. No more serious internal conflicts. No more threats of military action between states.
People who want the demise of the EU need to think very long and hard about European history.
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So my questions (to everyone, but particularly BRR) are:
• Do you believe that NATO has the ambition to militarily defeat Russia? That is do you believe that all 30 nations wish to vote for it and risk nuclear annihilation?
• Do you believe NATO is actually helping to calm down potentially aggressive thoughts in some member nations' Governments?
• Do you believe that Stoltenberg speaks for NATO or just himself?
On the other hand, do I believe that some NATO member nations would like to be more aggressive? Certainly, but often for internal political reasons.
IMHO NATO is the single most successful (and misunderstood) organisation since WW2. Putin doesn’t like it because it gets in the way of his territorial ambitions, not because he feels threatened by an attack from it. His recent comparison of himself with Peter the Great shows the level of those geographical ambitions and underscores why Finland and Sweden want to protect themselves. No-one wants to enter a war with Russia.
I think if you can see NATO as simply the combination of countries that make it up, an alliance with explicit aims, almost a union of nations with the aim of keeping peace within their borders, then this is a very positive.
However, we live in a world where people everywhere are trying to grasp more power, more wealth. Hence NATO becomes a tool for those that have influence over it both in obvious ways, eg the member states themselves, notably the larger ones, and in less obvious ways where.... well, money and power has its way.
In my first paragraph above, and to a point within my second paragraph, the ideal and aim of peace reigns. Economies benefit from stability, people overall benefit from this - this is how NATO is sold to the masses and those with genuine good hearted interests. But then there are those that benefit from conflict through arms sales, investments, and so on, as well as those that benefit from grabbing land and resources eg in Iraq, Afghanistan, potentially Ukraine, as well as destabilising nations and economies that don't suit them eg Libya, Russia, China and historically almost if not all of South America, Africa and Asia. These people have a great deal of personal power, and we can argue about how much influence they have over some aspects of NATO. They certainly have zero humanity, being driven by the most sick, perverted and base human instincts. Yes, much of the crimes committed in these places are outside of the influence of NATO, but the strength of NATO does underpin their ability to influence actions worldwide.
Does NATO wish to destroy the power and influence of Russia? Not by its overt aims and ideals, but most definitely by other factors outside of the "nice" shopfront. It probably wouldn't want to do that by direct military action but by proxy, as in the Ukraine now, then of course those powerful people and institutions want shut of Russia as something outside of their world, or as it is often seen in the US, a Russia that threatens their world.
Does NATO calm down potentially aggressive desires by some nations. Yes. Currently, I am sure there are some nations pushing for more aggression towards Russia, most notably Poland. And Germany? They are good at keepiing hush, and their situation here is more complex.
Stoltenberg, I don't know. I'm sure he is voicing some of his views, but of course is an experienced politician. He no doubt has influences that we don't know about.
A Ukraine within NATO, within the EU, is destabilising for that region, and for Ukraine itself. The western media and givernments and institutions and NATO and the EU's impression of a free Ukraine within that, its people all behind it, "democracy" ruling etc is fairytale nonsense.
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BRR - many thanks for a reasoned reply and answering my questions. There is a lot I can agree with to some extent in your reply and I think I now understand your position much better. I am busy for a couple of hours and will come back if I may with a reasoned response - I just wanted to say right away that I appreciate your response.
Edit: BRR - my response:
Thank you for your patience. I do apologise for this response being so long, and I am happy to discuss what is mainly opinions of mine. We may differ, but maybe not by as much as might be thought.
I think in general terms over the last days I had been a little disturbed by your implied equivalence of Russia and ‘NATO’ by which I take to mean major nations within NATO (US for one). There may well be some loose equivalence between global ambitions of Russia and say the US, but IMHO there is clear black and white between the lengths of violence and destruction they are prepared to go to achieve them. To this end the carpet bombing in Vietnam was half a century ago when precision munitions were not an option, and as far as I recall cities were not attacked and flattened with the scale of loss of life and infrastructure the Russians have caused in Chechnya, Syria (not only the Russians there of course) and now Ukraine. I cannot recall any western operation using anywhere near the scale, lengths and depths of indiscriminate shelling of multiple large cities including residential areas, hospitals, schools etc. I know a Chinese embassy was famously hit once in Belgrade but that was an isolated incident which can clearly be put down to error.
I accept that the US, EU, NATO are involved in this conflict, but via economic, presumably cyber and information means plus limited supply of weapons to Ukrainians. I do not see the equivalence of this with the level of violence that Russia is wreaking.
Which leads to the point of who is the aggressor and what brought Putin to this decision. The expression ‘NATO expansion eastwards’ may be a geographical fact but is very misleading. It suggests significant lobbying or pressure even on the former ‘Buffer States’ of the Warsaw Pact, and former parts of the USSR which became independent countries (I make a real distinction between the two). The buffer states (Poland, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania, the then Czechoslovakia and East Germany) were supposedly ‘independent’ countries during the cold war, although the Hungarians in 1956 and the Czechs in 1968 might disagree when the Russian tanks came rolling in. As far as I recall there was little active lobbying, they all very much wished to join NATO. The era of Gorbachev and Yeltsin which allowed these countries their real freedom (as a result of the USSR not being able to keep up with the US in defence research into ‘Star Wars’ technology) was not seen as necessarily permanent in their eyes and they wanted the future security guarantee that NATO membership would give. Certainly they and NATO were not preparing themselves for some kind of assault and attack eastwards. These countries had IMHO a clear right to independence to make their own decisions.
Then we have the parts of the former USSR which gained independence under Gorbachov and Yeltsin, and the picture is slightly murkier. Do they have the right to independence and self government? The west would say yes (and that is also my opinion) – Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia are UN members and now members of NATO and at their own request, but I can see Russia having a different viewpoint. Ukraine, Georgia and all the ‘stans’ (Uzbekhistan etc..) are members of UN and recognized as independent nations. This clearly too much for Putin who openly compares himself with Peter the Great and clearly wishes to restore all these now independent countries to the greater Russia. This includes parts of Finland and Sweden. I don’t know if it is a good comparison, but maybe it is like the UK deciding the Republic of Ireland should once again become part of the UK.
One last comment on this balance between NATO and Russia. In the late 1990s through until 2008 Russia was welcomed with open arms into the NATO Partnership for Peace Program (PfP) and took part in many exercises. I experienced senior Russians Generals telling us about their operational experiences in the Russian military forces and them learning about some NATO procedures. I was so hopeful of a lasting cooperation and understanding which is vital to lasting peace. Then Putin went into Georgia, received a backlash from the west, and promptly pulled Russia out of all PfP activities. It has been downhill since then.
Back to your post in more detail. I have tried to suggest that NATO is too large and stable organization to bend to one countries wishes – certainly I never saw any suggestion of that. Just try suggesting that to the French.
Then the issue of the arms industry. I don’t have figures but the number of conflicts NATO has been involved in is small compared to national conflicts involving NATO nations (think e.g. Falklands). I don’t think arms dealers’ profits with NATO are large. In addition to campaign use of weapons I have previously posted about the NATO defence planning process whereby NATO analysts (yes I was involved) assess the future threats say 8-15 years out, and which of these might happen simultaneously, and what pool of military forces might be desirable to counter these threats. Then NATO and the NATO Nations enter a negotiation process whereby Nations are encouraged to take a NATO wide view and spend their national defence budgets in line with the overall picture. This may mean for example that instead of every single nation acquiring all possible capabilities that one nation acquires e.g. fewer tanks and artillery pieces and acquires a chemical decontamination capability or a mobile hospital or engineering equipment, or acquires fewer attack aircraft and more Reconnaissance or Transport Aircraft, or acquires fewer Frigates and more Search and Rescue Helicopters or Minesweepers. This can potentially avoid too much of a build-up of attacking capabilities and would certainly reduce arms dealers’ prospects of large sales – IMHO these profits come in contracts with individual nations, particularly in the Middle East.
Once again thank you for engaging with me and I do hope I have not drowned you in return. We all have a right to our own opinions.
P.S. Now I have added all this feel free to 'unlike' if you wish :lol:
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BRR.
You keep on making a category error.
"NATO" doesn't make decisions on policy. Countries do. In light of the fact that they have treaty obligations through NATO, for sure, but they are national decisions.
"NATO" didn't invade Iraq. A coalition led by a particularly evil group of right wing American politicians did.
"NATO" doesn't have a policy goal to "destroy Russia". It can't because it has no sovereign means to do so. Some national leaders may or may not, but that is an entirely different issue.
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https://www.indianpunchline.com/next-100-days-of-ukraine-war/
Mutterings of organised climb down now also fermenting in the US.
Is there now a realisation in the free world that this conflict needs to be brought under control before it starts to create instability worldwide?
Is the visit of the E3 today to Ukraine the commencement of a negotiated settlement that placates Russia.
I would not trust any of the E3 to guarantee that the tea and biscuits would arrive safely when they say.
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I do not believe that the Ukrainian Goverments nurturing and fostering of neo Nazi organisations such as the infamous AZOV brigade has helped their cause in the least. Had Putin merely attacked the Don bass rejoin in February I would have said," get on with it!" I was very disconcerted to see his futile attempt to conquer the entire country. And glad to see it failed. However I have a large group of friends who are from the Balkan states and they see Putin as a hero. Try as I might I can't convince them otherwise.
We have to accept that Russia will now gain control of the Donbass region and start building a structure whereby the remaining 80/90% of the Ukraine is absorbed into NATO.
This will achieve 3 things bring peace and stability to the region, prevent any Further Russian expansion into the Ukraine, prevent far right groups in the Ukraine from making any further military incursions into the Don bass.
I am not happy with this scenario but we need to prevent things from escalating out of our Control.
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BST, you are correct in the ideal and official view of NATO, though as you illustrate, in various incidents it becomes a mix and match of convenience and willingness basically led by the US who have a very clearly expressed aim of world dommination. Refuse to join in with that at your peril.
These countries have trained together under the NATO umbrella, have logistics coordinated through NATO, and then take the NATO flag down when they go into battle, keeping it nice and clean for its overall purpose.
So yes, I use NATO to include what it really does rather than the polished clean purely defensive face it presents, which is quite frankly bullshit. Russia knows this as much as anyone.
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Didn't the US stop McArthur from crashing through N Korea into China?
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Didn't the US stop McArthur from crashing through N Korea into China?
Like, he was parked?
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He had his tyres slashed
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This is an interesting channel on Rumble. A very detailed daily analyisis of action using maps and seemingly a good amount of knowledge. I don't know who the guy is but in his analysis he seems balanced.
This is 16th June, there is a 17th June one if you check out the channel. In that there is an interesting list of numbers of foreign "volunteers" including total numbers, killed, left Ukraine and still in Ukraine. I think it's from Russia? See if I can find it and post it. Re Brits, I think it said 100 killed. Quite high death rates from all nations. Strangely doesn't mention captured.
https://rumble.com/v18p8tt-ukraine-russia-military-summary-and-analysis-june-16-2022.html?mref=6zof&mrefc=12
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From 24 Nov there were 422 Brits arrived
Killed 100
Left 95
Still there 17 June 226
Accuracy dubious, from Russian ministry, but interesting, and no less reliable than Ukraine offered stats. Not surprising if proportion killed is that high given they'd likely be slung into bad situations (one returner confirmed this), and some will have no training beyond Callof Duty. Brits were 3rd largest contingent behind Poles and Romanians.
Overall, from 24 Nov there were 6956 arrived
Killed 1156
Left 1179
Now there 17 June 3221
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BST, you are correct in the ideal and official view of NATO, though as you illustrate, in various incidents it becomes a mix and match of convenience and willingness basically led by the US who have a very clearly expressed aim of world dommination. Refuse to join in with that at your peril.
These countries have trained together under the NATO umbrella, have logistics coordinated through NATO, and then take the NATO flag down when they go into battle, keeping it nice and clean for its overall purpose.
So yes, I use NATO to include what it really does rather than the polished clean purely defensive face it presents, which is quite frankly bullshit. Russia knows this as much as anyone.
BRR I think we have some common ground but there are clearly differences in opinion where we will probably have to agree to disagree. I think there are three main areas:
The Global Aims of the US:
I have absolutely no non-public information to work on, but it is true that I am terrified of the thought of what Republicans might do if re-elected. The minority (max 30% maybe?) of the population that support Trump and his acolytes in complete cult like manner are capable of anything and have made ‘America First’ their top concept for everything (except the inner circles where it is ‘Trump and us first’). I am more sanguine about America’s self-perceived role as global policeman under Democrats who I believe at this time often to some extent have the greater good at heart.
The extent to which NATO can be used/manipulated by the US (and to a lesser extent by other nations):
It is more than a decade since I retired but I never saw, heard or felt any effects of this. Of course there is always lobbying, for example for a nation’s industry to win NATO Common Funding infrastructure projects, but there are very very tight rules and procedures which I have personally experienced to govern this. Don’t forget NATO does not buy arms, nations do, so most NATO contracts would be IT or construction oriented. If a nation wants to build support for some action that is not mandated by a UN Resolution (NATO’s normal preferred basis, but has not happened in every case) bilateral talks and ad-hoc coalitions are a far far easier way to go.
These countries have trained together under the NATO umbrella, have logistics coordinated through NATO, and then take the NATO flag down when they go into battle, keeping it nice and clean for its overall purpose.
• Trained Together – absolutely, have adopted standards and procedures that allow interoperability
• Logistics coordinated by NATO – only in a NATO Operation. Logistics is always a national responsibility. The ability to deconflict a number of nations’ concurrent deployment plans so that e.g. too many ships don’t arrive at a port at the same time is managed by NATO staff with NATO systems. It is possible that the nations can have and use the software if they have trained operators but NATO itself absolutely would not do the coordination for a non NATO approved mission.
• The NATO ‘flag’ so to speak would never have been authorized, there should be no pretence that it was a NATO Operation – NATO would be very clear on that - cf first Gulf War.
The equivalence of NATO/US/The West and Russia in operational tactics that can be used:
Call me an idealist if you will, but the indiscriminate bombing and shelling of highly populated areas and the total destruction carried out by Russia is horrific to everyone and IMHO there is no way any NATO or NATO nation would emulate this. Yes Turkey has a poor Human Rights record and the current Hungary leader has pre 24 February expressed support for Russia, and I am sure Croatia was not squeaky clean in the 1990’s and if we go back further other countries may have occasionally been ‘a bit heavy handed’ (Spain, UK in Northern Ireland,….etc) but in my eyes there is absolutely no equivalence with what the Russians are doing now. And other than North Korea, post Vietnam, and post Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW set up in 1997) who else has used chemical weapons on individuals on other countries soil?
I agree that a lot of proxy support is happening, but I stick firmly to my opinion that Putin is the aggressor. As I said earlier IMHO Putin is not afraid of an attack on Russian soil by NATO, he is annoyed that newly independent countries have themselves chosen to defend their freedom by joining a defensive alliance and this is thwarting his expansionist plans to restore the Greater Russia. He uses propaganda to mis-characterise the free choices of independent neighbours as a military threat to his homeland. Unless I have missed something, the UK, France, Belgium, Spain, Portugal, the Netherlands have not sought military action to restore former colonies that have been given independence. So basically I am disagreeing with your opinion of calling 'BS' on NATO.
Of course the above is all my opinion and may even be out of date, and everyone else is entitled to their own opinion
When does the footie start :lol: :lol:
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DU thanks for your reply. It's a shame that the biggest player in all this, the US, pretends to be democratic. Yes perfect democracy is an ideal, but the US is far away from that. Republicans and Democrats mainly puppets pulled by the same strings. Slightly less so in the UK, but not far off. Anyway....
The destruction of civilians in Libya and Iraq by what I still see as essentially alliances of NATO members was shown quite clearly.
In Ukraine right now, Donetsk is being pummelled by Ukrainian artillary - some of that supplied by NATO countries. Some of that is targeting military, some of it not. Are the Russians worse? I'd guess on par, but who really knows. Certainly the civilian attacks are not one sided as described on mainstream Western media. Neither are the war crimes, far from it.
I agree Russia is the aggressor, but maintain that NATO, the US, EU, has pushed this situation to what we see. That is unforgivable. Who suffers in this global chess game? Not the people moving the pieces.
I think it's nip and tuck between the footy season starting before Taiwan kicks off. Never a dull moment.
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The question I have is what does Johnson make of Ukraines desire to join the EU? Surely he must be against it. In which case is this a sop to the Russians that he’s trying to talk Zelenskiy out of EU membership?
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The question I have is what does Johnson make of Ukraines desire to join the EU? Surely he must be against it. In which case is this a sop to the Russians that he’s trying to talk Zelenskiy out of EU membership?
Id say someone as mendacious as Johnson would not mind seeking the Ukraine being a member of the EU, his thinking could quite well be that a situation like what currently exist in the Ukraine would cause them plenty of issues in the future, with regards to integration, reconstruction and political hegemony.
Johnson's first thought would be where he could slide in some of his cronies into some fat profitable reconstruction contracts.
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That and just playing statesman in an attempt to up his standing in his Party, amongst a gullible electorate, and not forgetting to up his chances of international appointments when he's ousted, and the Sir Boris the Bodger accolade, if we still do that nonsense in 10 years time.
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DU thanks for your reply. It's a shame that the biggest player in all this, the US, pretends to be democratic. Yes perfect democracy is an ideal, but the US is far away from that. Republicans and Democrats mainly puppets pulled by the same strings. Slightly less so in the UK, but not far off. Anyway....
The destruction of civilians in Libya and Iraq by what I still see as essentially alliances of NATO members was shown quite clearly.
In Ukraine right now, Donetsk is being pummelled by Ukrainian artillary - some of that supplied by NATO countries. Some of that is targeting military, some of it not. Are the Russians worse? I'd guess on par, but who really knows. Certainly the civilian attacks are not one sided as described on mainstream Western media. Neither are the war crimes, far from it.
I agree Russia is the aggressor, but maintain that NATO, the US, EU, has pushed this situation to what we see. That is unforgivable. Who suffers in this global chess game? Not the people moving the pieces.
I think it's nip and tuck between the footy season starting before Taiwan kicks off. Never a dull moment.
I think we will just agree to disagree BRR.
I think it is just a matter of opinion of two sides. I believe that Russia is say >90% to blame for the starting of the conflict and <10% tension raising from various factors from the west (including the new NATO members who actively chose their path), whereas you seem more in the 50-50 area.
I agree that Ukrainians are also responsible for some warcrimes, not reported in the press, but they do have the provocation of being attacked. Again I tend towards the 90-10 and you the 50-50.
One thing is sure, just as 9-11 changed the world balance, Russia's invasion has also done so.
Time to talk about new signings and pre-season where our differences may well be just as great but far less important.
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I've said before, there were genuine grievances among the German people about the Sudetenland, Alsace-Lorraine, and their diaspora in Poland.
None of that justified launching the greatest war in human history. But I'm convinced there are people today who would have insisted that Hitler was only partly to blame, if they were transported back 85 years.
It is not "balance" to insist on equivalence. Never has been. Never will be.
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The question I have is what does Johnson make of Ukraines desire to join the EU? Surely he must be against it. In which case is this a sop to the Russians that he’s trying to talk Zelenskiy out of EU membership?
He couldn't care less. The only thing Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson cares about is the career of Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson. As long as he sees Ukraine as a useful PR opportunity he will support them (which as I have said severa times before, is a good thing). Whether they are in or out of the EU is irrelevant to him.
Once they cease to be useful for his PR then he will be back off to the Russian oligarchs and their money. Lets hope that day doesn't arrive before he gets kicked out of office.
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Again, the people pusing for this false equivalence of 'both sides equally to blame' and Putin will be appeased by giving him this much of Ukraine fail to accept what Putin actually thinks of Ukraine. He has said since at least 2008 he doesn't believe it should exist as a separate independent state - it is historically part of Russia and should be again.
You can't negotiate with people who dont believe you should exist. And your main contribution to 'starting' the conflict is to be living in your house.
As Zelensky has said - what Putin wants is the land of Ukraine without Ukrainian people in it. As long as Putin believes he can get what he wants by force this war will go on - whatever Ukraine or the west/US/EU/UK etc does.
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/lseih/2020/07/01/there-is-no-ukraine-fact-checking-the-kremlins-version-of-ukrainian-history/
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Wilts, Russia may well have always been ready to strike on Ukraine. For sure those beliefs of a greater Russia carry weight there. Ukraine has always been a border land between forces to the West, usually Poles, and forces to the East, usually Russians. The name Ukraine actually comes from the word for edge, ie its the borderlands.
2008 was immediately after NATO started talking about Ukraine being brought into their fold. That tells a story.
When the coup happened, it was decided to marginalise the Russian culture and language in Ukraine. Ie Russian speaking Ukraines were being made second class. Zelensky, albeit in puppet mode, pushed for this. This was the spark that ignited the keg. So when you talk about someone inferring people being pushed out of their homes, Zelensky was introducing this a good while back. The west was fully behind all this, and most likely pushing for it.
And do note Zelensky is there because he's an actor, performing for the benefit of 50% or so of Ukraines. He lies, he exaggerates, he pushes one view, one side - no wonder BST likes him. Understandably he's doing this now he is at war and losing territory and citizens and soldiers daily.
And BST, you once again play with rhetoric to make your point. Different situations entirely, stop the deliberate fudging.
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Copied from a pdf, apologies for formatting. This is from the Russian Mod. Who knows how accurate, but tis interesting. You wouldn't expect Ukraine to be putting out this info. This includes fighters, trainers, and those repairing equipment. The "eliminated" means dead? Or dead and seriously injured? Or injured included in the "Departed" figures? Casualties quite possibly in the right ball park from stories heard about mercenaries/volunteers being used as cannon fodder.
Columns are:
1) Country
2) Arrived since 24.02.22
3) Eliminated
4) Departed
5) Total on 17.06.22
Poland 1831 378 272 1181
Romania 504 102 98 304
United Kingdom 422 101 95 226
Croatia 204 74 51 79
Belarus 197 69 59 69
France 183 59 45 79
Bosnia and Herzegovina 167 51 46 70
Estonia 164 55 49 60
Kosovo 156 61 60 35
Albania 150 42 40 68
Lithuania 130 50 44 36
Portugal 103 19 16 68
Germany 99 33 34 32
North Macedonia 79 21 19 39
Finland 74 20 27 27
Ireland 71 23 14 34
Iraly 71 21 26 24
Switzerland 55 15 18 22
Netherlands 42 12 13 17
Sweden 36 5 30 1
Czechia 33 14 15 4
Spain 20 4 4 12
Latvia 18 7 3 8
Norway 15 6 6 3
Belgium 14 2 9 3
Denmark 7 2 2 3
Austria 5 2 1 2
Greece 4 1 2 1
Bulgaria 3 0 1 2
Slovakia 3 0 1 2
Moldova 2 0 1 1
Montenegro 2 1 0 1
Hungary 1 0 0 1
Luxembourg 1 0 0 1
Total 4866 1250 1101 2515
Canada 601 162 169 270
USA 530 214 227 89
Bolivia 50 13 25 12
Columbia 40 10 9 21
Brasil 39 12 15 12
Peru 3 0 1 2
Argentina 2 0 1 1
Venezuela 1 0 0 1
Chile 1 0 0 1
Total 1267 411 447 409
Georgia 355 120 90 145
Syria 200 80 66 54
Turkey 61 19 42
Israel 35 9 8 18
Republic of Korea 13 4 8 1
Azerbaijan 1 1 0 0
Iran 1 0 0 1
Kazakhstan 1 0 0 1
Cyprus 1 0 0 1
China 1 0 0 1
Uzbekistan 1 0 0 1
Japan 1 0 0 1
Total 671 233 172 266
Nigeria 85 38 35 12
South Africa 25 9 11 5
Senegal 15 4 6 5
Guinea 10 4 4 2
Gabon 5 2 1 2
Liberia 5 2 1 2
Equatorial Guinea 2 1 0 1
Total 147 60 58 29
Australia 4 2 1 1
New Zealand 1 0 0 1
Total 5 2 1 2
In total 6956 1956 1779 3221
https://t.me/mod_russia_en/2247
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Who said this?
Dec 2017 ...................... a clue this person has good sporting relations and many influential and monied friends with close connections to Putin.
“I’m delighted to say there are increasing exports of British Kettle Crisps (sic) to Russia, and in spite of all the difficulties 300 Bentleys were sold this year in Russia - not, I believe, necessarily to employees of the foreign ministry.
“But nonetheless a sign of progress. Things are difficult but we want to work together with you on some issues and work to achieve a better future.”
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-russia_uk_5a3cd2bde4b06d1621b37fa2
Things are difficult but we want to work together with you on some issues and work to achieve a better future ................
So, all was well, a few difficulties a bout of hiccups is all, nothing that a bag of crisps and a roller can't sort out, no top spin on that one aye?
Did you not vote?
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Who said this?
Dec 2017 ...................... a clue this person has good sporting relations and many influential and monied friends with close connections to Putin.
“I’m delighted to say there are increasing exports of British Kettle Crisps (sic) to Russia, and in spite of all the difficulties 300 Bentleys were sold this year in Russia - not, I believe, necessarily to employees of the foreign ministry.
“But nonetheless a sign of progress. Things are difficult but we want to work together with you on some issues and work to achieve a better future.”
https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/boris-russia_uk_5a3cd2bde4b06d1621b37fa2
Things are difficult but we want to work together with you on some issues and work to achieve a better future ................
So, all was well, a few difficulties a bout of hiccups is all, nothing that a bag of crisps and a roller can't sort out, no top spin on that one aye?
Did you not vote?
Amazing, I didn’t know that Bentley was owned by Rolls Royce.
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BRR
Zelensky is a native Russian speaker. His relatives fought and died in the Red Army fighting the Nazis.
If you want to keep spouting Putin's fascist propoganda - at least provide some balance to it. From both sides.
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I doubt the Russian MOD would know the exact numbers of who is fighting with the Ukranian Army or what their casualty figures are - how would they - its not something you can pick up from satellite images.
However BRR's list does show how international this war is. Reminds me of the International Brigade in the Spanish Civil War when ordinary people from all across the world came together to fight facism.
I hope he isn't saying that is a bad thing?
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BRR.
Your dismissal of anything you don't want to hear as "rhetoric" and "it's different this time" is as boring as it is intellectually vacuous.
You don't want to learn from history. You want to spout FSB propaganda sources as some sort of faux balance.
You're the epitome of the Useful Idiot that Russia has targeted in the West for generations.
Let me tell you what I hope. I hope you don't snap out of it and come to regret what you are doing. Because, just as with Hitler's apologists in the 1930s, I fear that the actions of Putin would have to be far, far worse than they are at the moment before you realised your error. So I'd rather you had the luxury of continuing to act as you are doing and never have to face up to just how wrong you are.
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I doubt the Russian MOD would know the exact numbers of who is fighting with the Ukranian Army or what their casualty figures are - how would they - its not something you can pick up from satellite images.
However BRR's list does show how international this war is. Reminds me of the International Brigade in the Spanish Civil War when ordinary people from all across the world came together to fight facism.
I hope he isn't saying that is a bad thing?
You doubt Russia has an effective spy network?
BST - There you go again, this time adding in the personal stuff. Sad how you can't see the poverty of your arguments when you do this. Of course it's up to you what team you support, rarely is it a logical thing. Maybe because Ukraine play in the same colour as The Dons?
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Wilts, no I'm not saying the internationals are a bad thing, tho in this case it is questionable about who they're fighting for, even if you approve of who they're fighting against. The comparison with the Spanish Civil War doesn't really hold.
Seems they are made up of a lot of people with strong Ukrainian family ties. And then there are those who want a fight. And payment, looting opportunities? And some fighting purely because they believe in the cause. And some sent there by their governments. Interesting how reports are that they have often been sent to the worst positions. Apparently around 400 currently trapped in that industrial section right now.
Of course Zelensky has a non Nazi background. They wouldn't pick someone too obviously that way inclined. His desire to eliminate the Russian language has to be noted.
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Interesting again looking at BBC news where its mentioned that Ukraine downed a Russian SU 25, no mention of Russia doing the same. They do mention Russia destroying some of the recent international weapon contributions. But then they fa to mention the missile hit on a meeting of 50 Ukraine Generals and officers inDnepropetrovsk, reportedly killing all.
Given what appears to be a large scale daily destruction of Ukraine armaments and forces, far above what is being supplied, how soon will the Ukraine strategy change, and how?
The longer they wait to to negotiate a truce, which inevitably includes a loss of 20 to 25% of territory. The more territory they'll lose, the more they'll have to agree to give away. And they'll suffer more destruction, becoming weaker.
Whilst aid will be coming to them, given current world economics and internal politics, that will be a long way from what is needed for life there to get back on track. Meanwhile, military aid is likely to dry up too. As it is, I can't see Russia slowing down its mission till both Odessa and Kharkiv are taken.
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Wilts, no I'm not saying the internationals are a bad thing, tho in this case it is questionable about who they're fighting for, even if you approve of who they're fighting against. The comparison with the Spanish Civil War doesn't really hold.
Seems they are made up of a lot of people with strong Ukrainian family ties. And then there are those who want a fight. And payment, looting opportunities? And some fighting purely because they believe in the cause. And some sent there by their governments. Interesting how reports are that they have often been sent to the worst positions. Apparently around 400 currently trapped in that industrial section right now.
Of course Zelensky has a non Nazi background. They wouldn't pick someone too obviously that way inclined. His desire to eliminate the Russian language has to be noted.
BRR - why exactly doesn't the comparison with the Spanish Civil War hold?
A democratically elected government is being overthrown by a fascist dictator because he doesn't like their political direction and people who think they should be free to run their own country/free to HAVE their own country - have gone to help. There were numerous are various factions within the International Brigade and the Spanish Republicans too - I would say it is a perfect parrallel.
And you are on the wrong side.
Putin wont stop untl he has destroyed Ukraine - or until Ukraine's forces make him negotiate.
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It's no longer front page headline news, apart from attempt to join EU, does this mean Politicians are losing interest, apart from the greasy piglet, will the supply of weaponry start diminishing will efforts be made to put pressure on Ukraine to negotiate can't see Putin backing down? Putin will not stop to achieve what ever his aims now are it could drag on for months if not years not good for Countries economies
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Wilts, no I'm not saying the internationals are a bad thing, tho in this case it is questionable about who they're fighting for, even if you approve of who they're fighting against. The comparison with the Spanish Civil War doesn't really hold.
Seems they are made up of a lot of people with strong Ukrainian family ties. And then there are those who want a fight. And payment, looting opportunities? And some fighting purely because they believe in the cause. And some sent there by their governments. Interesting how reports are that they have often been sent to the worst positions. Apparently around 400 currently trapped in that industrial section right now.
Of course Zelensky has a non Nazi background. They wouldn't pick someone too obviously that way inclined. His desire to eliminate the Russian language has to be noted.
BRR - why exactly doesn't the comparison with the Spanish Civil War hold?
A democratically elected government is being overthrown by a fascist dictator because he doesn't like their political direction and people who think they should be free to run their own country/free to HAVE their own country - have gone to help. There were numerous are various factions within the International Brigade and the Spanish Republicans too - I would say it is a perfect parrallel.
And you are on the wrong side.
Putin wont stop untl he has destroyed Ukraine - or until Ukraine's forces make him negotiate.
You seem to forget there was a coup that ousted a democratically elected government. That's one big difference.
Then there was a war between the coup government and a region that objected to the coup.
Many radical right wingers, some with Nazi tattoos, well evidenced, were given guns and equipment to do this "nationalist" job. Thousands of civilians were killed. I don't recall the volunteers in the Spanish Civil War fighting with right wing extremists? Actually a number did go over to fight for Franco, tho I assume they're not who you're referring to. The "Ukraines" are not a socialist force for the people despite the propaganda.
And now this is not a civil war.
So many differences, just like BST and his weak rhetorical analogy between Putin and Hitler.
And, AGAIN, for the record, I'm not on anyone's side. Both are a bunch of crooks and gangsters abusing ordinary people. I believe that puts me on the right side. Though maybe you like to support these evil people?
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The EU blockade of Kaliningrad by Lithuania could be problematic. Russia has said it will use force if the blockade is not lifted.
Kaliningrad is that small Russian territory on the Baltic coast between Lithuania and Poland isolated from the rest of Russia.
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The EU blockade of Kaliningrad by Lithuania could be problematic. Russia has said it will use force if the blockade is not lifted.
Kaliningrad is that small Russian territory on the Baltic coast between Lithuania and Poland isolated from the rest of Russia.
Two NATO countries, it would take a brave or stupid man to use force, given they can’t break the Ukraines, any ground force would be wiped out
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Two NATO countries, it would take a brave or stupid man to use force, given they can’t break the Ukraines, any ground force would be wiped out
Use of actual military force won't be pretty. Given the way Russia works, I don't think that is likely without having some "cunning plan". More likely is the force will be in some other form, who knows what?
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Here's today's Russian Mod report which gives a view that most here will be unaware of. Note that this is pretty similar each day. Maybe exaggerated in parts? But quite possibly not. I think if even only half true it isn't looking too good for Ukraine.
I'd give the Ukraine version, but you probs see that anyway.
⚡️Russian Defence Ministry report on the progress of the special military operation in Ukraine (June 21, 2022)
▫️On June 20, at about 05.00 AM, the Kiev regime attempted to capture Snake Island.
The plan of the operation composed by the Kiev regime supposed to launch massive air and artillery attacks at Snake Island, to disembark troops and capture it.
The air attack has involved more than 15 Ukrainian attack and reconnaissance unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) adjusted by two Bayraktar-TB2 UAVs.
Russian means detected a Global Hawk RQ-4 strategic reconnaissance UAV of the U.S. Air Force at high altitudes near Snake Island.
Ukrainian UAVs were supported in air by S-300 air defence systems from their combat positions near Tuzla and Ochakov.
Missile and artillery attacks at Snake Island were launched by Ukrainian Tochka-U ballistic missiles, Uragan multiple rocket launchers and M777 155-mm howitzers from their combat positions to the west from Odessa and in Kubansky island.
Russian air defence means (Pantsir air defence missile and cannon system and Tor air defence missile system) have destroyed all the destruction means of the enemy launched at Snake Island.
The destroyed targets were: 13 UAVs, 4 Tochka-U missiles and 21 projectiles of Uragan multiple rocket launcher.
No Ukrainian destruction means have reached their targets in Snake Island.
The unsuccessful fire attack forced the enemy to abandon the landing to Snake Island.
After being convinced that the attempt to seize the island had failed, the Kiev regime took an attempt of a new gamble related to Russian gas infrastructure facilities in the north-western part of the Black Sea.
After 08.00 AM, anti-ship missiles and a Bayraktar-TB2 UAV attacked BK-1 and Krym-1 gas production platforms.
The Ukrainian provocation has resulted in an intensive fire at BK-1 platform, this area of the Black Sea has resulted to be in danger of an environmental disaster.
Sabotages of the Kiev regime have been reflected by launching Oniks cruise missiles at Shkolny military airfield near Odessa and the destruction of the hangars for Ukrainian Bayraktar-TB2 UAVs detected by Russian reconnaissance means.
2 artillery plattoons of M777 155-mm howitzers have been destroyed in Kubansky island.
Russian Aerospace Forces have destroyed 2 launching ramps of S-300 air defence missile system near Ochakov and Tuzla (Odessa region).
Russian Federation Armed Forces continue launching attacks at military facilities located in Ukraine.
High-precision air-based missiles have destroyed 4 munitions depots near Mirnaya Dolina, Loskutovka, Podlesnoye (Lugansk People's Republic), as well as a Buk-M1air defence system near Seversk (Donetsk People's Republic).
In addition, manpower and military equipment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine (AFU), as well as of nationalist groups, including the Right Sector, have been neutralised near Belaya Gora, Novodruzhesk, Mirnaya Dolina, Podlesnoye and Volcheyarovka.
Within counter-battery warfare towards Donetsk, 2 plattoons of Uragan multiple rocket launchers have been neutralised near Zaryanoye and Dimitrov, as well as 2 plattoons of Giatsint-B 152-mm howitzers at their firing positions near Spartak and Podgornoye.
Operational-tactical and army aviation has neutralised: 57 manpower and military equipment concentration areas, 1 command post of the AFU, as well as a multi-function missile guidance radars of S-300 air defence system near Seversk (Donetsk People's Republic).
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Part 2
Missile troops and artillery have neutralised: 216 manpower and military equipment concentration areas of the AFU, 28 command posts, 64 artillery units at their firing positions, as well as 2 munitions depots.
Attacks launched by aviation, missile troops and artillery have resulted in 570 nationalists, 29 tanks and other armoured combat vehicles, as well as 16 special vehicles.
Russian air defence troops have shot down 1 Su-25 of the Ukrainian Air Force near Mazanovka (Kharkov region).
19 Ukrainian UAVs have been shot down near Krutaya Balka (Donetsk People's Republic), Dibrovo, Kapitolovka, Liptsy and Zavody (Kharkov region). 5 Tochka-U tactical missiles, as well as 30 projectiles of Uragan multiple rocket launchers have been intercepted near Lozovskiy (Lugansk People's Republic), Lozovaya, Kremenets, Aleksandrovka (Donetsk People's Republic), Dolgenkoye and Topolskoye (Kharkov region).
In total, 209 airplanes and 132 helicopters, 1,292 unmanned aerial vehicles, 348 anti-aircraft missile systems, 3,709 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, 580 combat vehicles equipped with multiple rocket-launching systems, 2,065 field artillery cannons and mortars, as well as 3,760 units of special military equipment have been destroyed during the special military operation.
The enemy continues suffering considerable losses during the special military operation.
Only 28 servicemen of the 57th Mechanised Brigade of the AFU that operates in Severodonetsk have remained in the ranks, the other has been left only with commanders.
Reserves for replenishing the losses are exhausted.
Territorial Defence battalions that arrive from the western regions of Ukraine for reinforcing refuse to head to the front.
Servicemen of the 101st Territorial Defence Brigade of the AFU have stated that the refuse to be involved in the operations and headed to the rear area in the responsibility zone of Soledar operational tactical group.
There are more than 600 persons who have refused to fight.
M777 155-mm howitzers delivered by USA and European countries to Ukraine have become a good target for Russian destruction means.
15 howitzers, mostly yet unused and deployed near Druzhkovka railway station, have been destroyed over the past 24 hours.
Residents of settlements adjacent to operations zones in Dnepropetrovsk, Kharkov and Zaporozhye regions are being forcibly mobilised. National police units block the settlements for these purposes. Men of all ages are detained to be mobilised.
Kiev regime spreads information about an allegedly secret trip of Zelensky to Lisichansk where he faced a shelling.
At the same time, the group of Ukrainian troops near Lisichansk has been cut off from supplies and is being under firing control of the Russian Armed Forces.
According to the Ukrainian prisoners, units of the 79th Airborne Assault Brigade have been abandoned by their commanders.
Servicemen who remained alive had nothing to do but to surrender for saving their lives.
The same situation is in the 57th Mechanised Brigade of the AFU. After losing the two thirds of personnel, its commander begged the group command to inform the AFU General Staff and Zelensky in person about the real situation.
Kiev regime continues spreading fake news in the best traditions of Kvartal-95 amid its military failures for doing something to stop the panic and the escape of its personnel from Donbass.
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And the evidence for those numbers of destroyed aircraft and tanks is...where?
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And the evidence for those numbers of destroyed aircraft and tanks is...where?
Like I said, could be exaggerated. The planes usually seems fairly evidenced. If the systems destroyed in the area attacking Snake Island happened as said, likely there'll be less attacks there, so we'll see.
Ukraine is going to ask for more and more weapons whatever. NATO may be seeing a bottomless pit and so pull back on that? It's costing NATO countries, ie me and you, lots to keep this up.
And then there's the advances being made by Russia, mainly by steadily surrounding troops rather than shock and awe. If these figures are correct then that will gain pace.
So what info do you have? And what info re Russian losses?
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If past performance of the Russian Military is anything to go by, everything they release into the hands of the media is suspect and more than likely bogus information with intent to portray a false impression of operations.
We all know this is not exclusive to the Russian sphere only and info coming from the other side can also be misinterpreted to give a false impression.
I would say the majority of observers will be forming their opinion of the war from other sources without direct connections to the perpetrators. There's plenty out there if people are interested enough.
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I use this source for evidence of Russian losses.
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2022/02/attack-on-europe-documenting-equipment.html?m=1
I wouldn't wipe my arse on the figures that came from either combattant's ministry of defence. I wouldn't trust any war data that came with zero evidence and an appeal to have trust in the originator.
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Good source though obviously less than what has actually happened, as it says there "the amount of equipment destroyed is significantly higher than recorded here."
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Interesting how the UK is messaging Russia re the mercenaries sentenced to death by the DPR. I suspect they will be compelled to contact the DPR itself, but will they acknowledge its existence?
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It's evidence based. It doesn't claim anything it can't support. I wouldn't trust any other source. Especially one from a governemtn that has made misinformation a specialism.
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Interesting how the UK is messaging Russia re the mercenaries sentenced to death by the DPR. I suspect they will be compelled to contact the DPR itself, but will they acknowledge its existence?
So let's see.
You repeat Russian claims that the destruction of cities in the Donbas is due to Ukrainian actions.
You publish Russian Govt data on Ukrainian casualties and materiel losses.
You repeatedly follow the Russian line of calling foreigners fighting on the Ukrainian side "mercenaries".
And yet you take umbrage when I suggest that you're playing the Useful Idiot, parroting the Russian Govt line?
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It's evidence based. It doesn't claim anything it can't support. I wouldn't trust any other source. Especially one from a governemtn that has made misinformation a specialism.
Yep, and as I said, and you ignored, the real figures are significantly higher than what it has. So there we have it, solid for what it is, but by its own admission, wildly inaccurate.
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Interesting how the UK is messaging Russia re the mercenaries sentenced to death by the DPR. I suspect they will be compelled to contact the DPR itself, but will they acknowledge its existence?
So let's see.
You repeat Russian claims that the destruction of cities in the Donbas is due to Ukrainian actions.
You publish Russian Govt data on Ukrainian casualties and materiel losses.
You repeatedly follow the Russian line of calling foreigners fighting on the Ukrainian side "mercenaries".
And yet you take umbrage when I suggest that you're playing the Useful Idiot, parroting the Russian Govt line?
Ukraine is currently blasting the poo out of Donetsk. Are you denying that?
I passed it on here for people to make of it what they will. So much on here is the Ukraine/NATO/BBC version which is clearly missing the Ukraine catastrophes. You gave me your verified but evidentlty inaccurate alternative.
Foreign fighters are mercenaries.
You are clearly Liz Truss.
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Mercenaries usually get paid.
Do you know if Ukraine are paying these fighters and if so how much?
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This is grimly symbolic of the Russian approach.
https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1539260812371677185?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Their strategy now is simply to rain down cheap, shit accuracy rockets on the Ukrainian positions from 20 miles behind the front line. Then they send in a few troops in armoured vehicles. If they don't encounter any resistance, they move the front on. If they are wiped out because the shit accuracy rockets did a shit job, rinse and repeat.
Their much-lauded air strike forces have proved in battle to be hopeless. They have been totally unable to establish the air superiority needed to surgically isolate and defeat the defenders. So they resort to the brutal old method of carpet bombing - putting people and infrastructure through a grinder and spitting them out.
I wish I didn't swear as much as I do, because I'm struggling to find words to express my revulsion here. I can only repeat what my Russian friend said to me at the weekend - and I've never in my life heard him swear before. He said they are f**king savages. Both on the geo-political level, where their strategy is to bully whoever they can into being in their sphere of influence, not with the promise of a better tomorrow if they collaborate, but with the threat of extermination if they resist. And on the battlefield level, where they have a total disregard for the lives of combatants on both sides, and on the collateral damage that their disgusting war is doing.
On both counts, they are pulling us back into a dark, brutal past. They cannot be allowed to succeed.
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It's evidence based. It doesn't claim anything it can't support. I wouldn't trust any other source. Especially one from a governemtn that has made misinformation a specialism.
Yep, and as I said, and you ignored, the real figures are significantly higher than what it has. So there we have it, solid for what it is, but by its own admission, wildly inaccurate.
Do you understand the difference between upper bound and lower bound estimates?
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And it appears that a lot of the munitions being used by Russia are banned Internationally
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This is grimly symbolic of the Russian approach.
https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1539260812371677185?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Their strategy now is simply to rain down cheap, shit accuracy rockets on the Ukrainian positions from 20 miles behind the front line. Then they send in a few troops in armoured vehicles. If they don't encounter any resistance, they move the front on. If they are wiped out because the shit accuracy rockets did a shit job, rinse and repeat.
Their much-lauded air strike forces have proved in battle to be hopeless. They have been totally unable to establish the air superiority needed to surgically isolate and defeat the defenders. So they resort to the brutal old method of carpet bombing - putting people and infrastructure through a grinder and spitting them out.
I wish I didn't swear as much as I do, because I'm struggling to find words to express my revulsion here. I can only repeat what my Russian friend said to me at the weekend - and I've never in my life heard him swear before. He said they are f**king savages. Both on the geo-political level, where their strategy is to bully whoever they can into being in their sphere of influence, not with the promise of a better tomorrow if they collaborate, but with the threat of extermination if they resist. And on the battlefield level, where they have a total disregard for the lives of combatants on both sides, and on the collateral damage that their disgusting war is doing.
On both counts, they are pulling us back into a dark, brutal past. They cannot be allowed to succeed.
Very difficult for anyone to disagree with this, lets see what the cat drags in.
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BST, indiscriminate targetting like this?
https://t.me/mod_russia_en/2321
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BST, that youtube link is a weird example to use. The Ukraine troops would be in all those buildings. Seems the targetting was very accurate. Maybe you know which one they were hiding in?
From what I can see, your description is not what happens. Certainly not carpet bombing - where do you egt that from?
Hopeless air strikes? As you know, they are not using huge bombs, nor carpet bombing, so we're talking about generally speaking targetted strikes against very very well dug in positions.
Savages - I think you'll find most troops around the world are savage, it's the nature of the beast. Train a guy to be cold in the face of death and destruction and you get a psycho. Of course they are. But to bring us to Ukraine - what kind nurturing are you seeing in trrops shelling civilian areas of Donetsk, including a maternity hospital? One with no Russian troops in it. 100s of shells a day for weeks. Isn't that your definition of carpet bombing?
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It's evidence based. It doesn't claim anything it can't support. I wouldn't trust any other source. Especially one from a governemtn that has made misinformation a specialism.
Yep, and as I said, and you ignored, the real figures are significantly higher than what it has. So there we have it, solid for what it is, but by its own admission, wildly inaccurate.
Do you understand the difference between upper bound and lower bound estimates?
Yup, but both are wrong. What do you think the true figures are? For Ukraine and Russia? Lets go with planes, tanks, and troops dead/injured/captured. O'm not saying I know, but from your angle of dismissing what teh Russian MoD say, and giving me your low estimate, which has to be noted isn't balanced, I guess you might be coming from somewhere?
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And it appears that a lot of the munitions being used by Russia are banned Internationally
"a lot"? Like the cluster bombs? ie the ones that Ukraine is also using? And the one's that spread anti personel mines?
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Mercenaries usually get paid.
Do you know if Ukraine are paying these fighters and if so how much?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-60669763
So that's $1000 to $2000 a day plus bonuses. Maybe some on here would still class that as just covering food costs...
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BST, that youtube link is a weird example to use. The Ukraine troops would be in all those buildings. Seems the targetting was very accurate. Maybe you know which one they were hiding in?
From what I can see, your description is not what happens. Certainly not carpet bombing - where do you egt that from?
Hopeless air strikes? As you know, they are not using huge bombs, nor carpet bombing, so we're talking about generally speaking targetted strikes against very very well dug in positions.
Savages - I think you'll find most troops around the world are savage, it's the nature of the beast. Train a guy to be cold in the face of death and destruction and you get a psycho. Of course they are. But to bring us to Ukraine - what kind nurturing are you seeing in trrops shelling civilian areas of Donetsk, including a maternity hospital? One with no Russian troops in it. 100s of shells a day for weeks. Isn't that your definition of carpet bombing?
You mean the "targeting" that basically had rockets falling in random places over a hectare area?
You don't HAVE to take umbrage at every criticism of Russia you know?
By the way, I'm talking about the senior military commanders and their political masters. Unless you think the grunts on the ground are choosing strategy?
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It's evidence based. It doesn't claim anything it can't support. I wouldn't trust any other source. Especially one from a governemtn that has made misinformation a specialism.
Yep, and as I said, and you ignored, the real figures are significantly higher than what it has. So there we have it, solid for what it is, but by its own admission, wildly inaccurate.
Do you understand the difference between upper bound and lower bound estimates?
Yup, but both are wrong. What do you think the true figures are? For Ukraine and Russia? Lets go with planes, tanks, and troops dead/injured/captured. O'm not saying I know, but from your angle of dismissing what teh Russian MoD say, and giving me your low estimate, which has to be noted isn't balanced, I guess you might be coming from somewhere?
Right. This is my absolutely final response to you, because I really should know better.
1) You are providing Russian MoD data with zero supporting evidence.
2) That is data of what they claim are Ukrainian losses.
3) I am linking to am independent source of evidence-based RUSSIAN losses.
You equate the two as "wrong". Which misses the point so badly, that you must either be incapable of processing information, or you're deliberately obfuscating.
Have fun. I'm out of this.
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BST, that youtube link is a weird example to use. The Ukraine troops would be in all those buildings. Seems the targetting was very accurate. Maybe you know which one they were hiding in?
From what I can see, your description is not what happens. Certainly not carpet bombing - where do you egt that from?
Hopeless air strikes? As you know, they are not using huge bombs, nor carpet bombing, so we're talking about generally speaking targetted strikes against very very well dug in positions.
Savages - I think you'll find most troops around the world are savage, it's the nature of the beast. Train a guy to be cold in the face of death and destruction and you get a psycho. Of course they are. But to bring us to Ukraine - what kind nurturing are you seeing in trrops shelling civilian areas of Donetsk, including a maternity hospital? One with no Russian troops in it. 100s of shells a day for weeks. Isn't that your definition of carpet bombing?
You mean the "targeting" that basically had rockets falling in random places over a hectare area?
You don't HAVE to take umbrage at every criticism of Russia you know?
By the way, I'm talking about the senior military commanders and their political masters. Unless you think the grunts on the ground are choosing strategy?
No, I am seeing a few buildings getting direct hits.
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It's evidence based. It doesn't claim anything it can't support. I wouldn't trust any other source. Especially one from a governemtn that has made misinformation a specialism.
Yep, and as I said, and you ignored, the real figures are significantly higher than what it has. So there we have it, solid for what it is, but by its own admission, wildly inaccurate.
Do you understand the difference between upper bound and lower bound estimates?
Yup, but both are wrong. What do you think the true figures are? For Ukraine and Russia? Lets go with planes, tanks, and troops dead/injured/captured. O'm not saying I know, but from your angle of dismissing what teh Russian MoD say, and giving me your low estimate, which has to be noted isn't balanced, I guess you might be coming from somewhere?
Right. This is my absolutely final response to you, because I really should know better.
1) You are providing Russian MoD data with zero supporting evidence.
2) That is data of what they claim are Ukrainian losses.
3) I am linking to am independent source of evidence-based RUSSIAN losses.
You equate the two as "wrong". Which misses the point so badly, that you must either be incapable of processing information, or you're deliberately obfuscating.
Have fun. I'm out of this.
I recognise your source is independant, I also note it is using certain info. It may be that Ukraine is taking more pics of its successes? I don't know, neither do you. I also recognise the Russian Mod is going to only go one way with its reports. I already said that, aren't you reading?
You seem to cherry pick what you reply to, and tend to come back with info that is dressed heavily in bias, and rhetoric. You have clearly stated your intention to go with your bias. Your choice.
I started here posting other info from the western mainstream, as well as giving a different perspective from what is frequently western propaganda, or bias if you like. My aim is to look widely to try to understand. I'm not pro Russian, I'm against all imperialist actions. I have said this several times now....
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BST here's your "random" targetting, a before and after. White circled are what I'd consider hits, one bang on, one immediately adjacent, and two very close, enough to cause damage. Then 6 circled in blue that look to be in the fields. 4 out of 10 aint bad.
Maybe you know Ukraine is more accurate? Accurate enough to have targetted a hospital with no troops in it.
Did you watch the vid I linked to?
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Now that Lithuania has p*ssed Putin off, he's talking again about using Sarmat.
Not looking good.
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BRR.
Your desire to see the positive in everything Russia does has made you unable to use your eyes. Watch that video again. There are 14 rocket strikes. Spread over an area that I'd guess is maybe 200m right-left by 100m up-down. That's as far as we can see anyway - some of the strikes are right at the very edge of the screen and it's quite possible that others landed outside the field of view.
Which is precisely my point. That is indiscriminate laying down of non-precision munitions over a wide area. Picture that attack now in an urban area and multiply it by 50 or 100 or 1000. And picture the collateral damage done for every rocket that by fortune finds a target that it is meant for.
Go outside today, where you live. Pace out 200m X 100m. And count up how many houses there are. Pick a dozen at random and imagine those are the targets. Then imagine that indiscriminate rain of rockets pouring down.
Maybe, one day, you might start to question why you support this Russian bestiality, rather than unconditionally condemning it.
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I have just read a report where Russian intercepted signals are reporting Ukrainian forces pushing down the sides of the Russian advance in some areas and the Russian advance forces are in danger of being surrounded.
If they are surrounded they will come in for some of their own medicine and will be bombarded.
Also the manpower reserves they have are of very poor quality as far as being recognised as a good fighting unit.
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That, I suspect, rather supports Billy's observation that the Russians indiscriminately bombard from a long way away, send in some expendables to find out if they've sufficiently damaged the Ukrainians and repeat as required.What else can you use 'very poor quality' troops for? The Russians even have history doing this. They've even used this sort of recruit to clear minefields for the real soldiers behind them.
BobG
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And it appears that a lot of the munitions being used by Russia are banned Internationally
"a lot"? Like the cluster bombs? ie the ones that Ukraine is also using? And the one's that spread anti personel mines?
Missing out Phosphorous and Thermobaric. Cluster bombs on civilians are illegal
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BRR.
Your desire to see the positive in everything Russia does has made you unable to use your eyes. Watch that video again. There are 14 rocket strikes. Spread over an area that I'd guess is maybe 200m right-left by 100m up-down. That's as far as we can see anyway - some of the strikes are right at the very edge of the screen and it's quite possible that others landed outside the field of view.
Which is precisely my point. That is indiscriminate laying down of non-precision munitions over a wide area. Picture that attack now in an urban area and multiply it by 50 or 100 or 1000. And picture the collateral damage done for every rocket that by fortune finds a target that it is meant for.
Go outside today, where you live. Pace out 200m X 100m. And count up how many houses there are. Pick a dozen at random and imagine those are the targets. Then imagine that indiscriminate rain of rockets pouring down.
Maybe, one day, you might start to question why you support this Russian bestiality, rather than unconditionally condemning it.
I saw 4 hits in 10. I've seen vids with miuch worse results than that. Just strange you chose to highlight a vid with obvious hits. Anyway, yes, war weapons are indiscriminate, multiple rocket launchers (the weopon you referenced) are pretty much designed for that. Ukraine too. Though as I said, Ukraine shelling, carpet bombing, Donetsk is deliberate targetting of civilians - a war crime in the present way of thinking. As is the Ukraine tactic of using human shields - eg Mariupol, and the factory they're trapped in in the NE, and in the areas NW of Donetsk. They do choose a lot of schools and hospitals to hang out in.
Eyes blinded? I think you need to look in the mirror, but then you can't see.
"Pace out 200m X 100m. And count up how many houses there are. Pick a dozen at random and imagine those are the targets. Then imagine that indiscriminate rain of rockets pouring down. " a bit randomly vague there. Stick to what you referenced, 7 properties in that area. 10 rockets. 4 hits. pretty good - as far as evil killing machines go.
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I have just read a report where Russian intercepted signals are reporting Ukrainian forces pushing down the sides of the Russian advance in some areas and the Russian advance forces are in danger of being surrounded.
If they are surrounded they will come in for some of their own medicine and will be bombarded.
Also the manpower reserves they have are of very poor quality as far as being recognised as a good fighting unit.
Look at the battle maps. That's not happening as far as i can see, but maybe in a few small places. What you can see are about 5k Ukrainian troops totally trapped in two areas. More in other areas.
Russian reserves may be poor quality. Ukrainian probs much, much worse, and far more poorly equipped. Just saying it how it appears to be.
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And it appears that a lot of the munitions being used by Russia are banned Internationally
&quot;a lot&quot;? Like the cluster bombs? ie the ones that Ukraine is also using? And the one's that spread anti personel mines?
Missing out Phosphorous and Thermobaric. Cluster bombs on civilians are illegal
Ukraine has used cluster bombs too. But it actually directly targets civilians (eg Donetsk), and uses them as human shields (eg Mariupol, Sieverodonetsk currently, NW of Donetsk currently). Russia may do do, but far less so - we'd have heard otherwise.
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BRR, I think I will believe a British Generals reading of the situation and live and recordings of Russian officers opinions before the statements and conclusions people like yourself gather from BBC news casts and Facebook.
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And it appears that a lot of the munitions being used by Russia are banned Internationally
&amp;quot;a lot&amp;quot;? Like the cluster bombs? ie the ones that Ukraine is also using? And the one's that spread anti personel mines?
Missing out Phosphorous and Thermobaric. Cluster bombs on civilians are illegal
Ukraine has used cluster bombs too. But it actually directly targets civilians (eg Donetsk), and uses them as human shields (eg Mariupol, Sieverodonetsk currently, NW of Donetsk currently). Russia may do do, but far less so - we'd have heard otherwise.
So are these the human shields that Russia wouldn't allow a safe passage to?
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BRR.
So you won't even go back and re-assess what you incorrectly saw first time?
There WERE at least 14 clear strikes. You yourself said that only one of those appears to have made a direct hit. Given the relatively small explosive payload of each and the fact that the defending forces are likely to be using protective measures, it's unlikely that near-misses are going to be having a major deleterious effect. But that's a second order issue. The first order issue is that the Russians are just vaguely lobbing munitions into an area three times the size of a football pitch and hoping they roll a couple of sixes. That was the entire point I was making. I get that you will argue like f**k against it, because you don't like to see the Russians criticised. But that doesn't change the facts. Even if you refuse to see them in front of your own eyes.
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And it appears that a lot of the munitions being used by Russia are banned Internationally
&amp;amp;quot;a lot&amp;amp;quot;? Like the cluster bombs? ie the ones that Ukraine is also using? And the one's that spread anti personel mines?
Missing out Phosphorous and Thermobaric. Cluster bombs on civilians are illegal
Ukraine has used cluster bombs too. But it actually directly targets civilians (eg Donetsk), and uses them as human shields (eg Mariupol, Sieverodonetsk currently, NW of Donetsk currently). Russia may do do, but far less so - we'd have heard otherwise.
So are these the human shields that Russia wouldn't allow a safe passage to?
That the Ukraines wouldn't release. And won't release even now. They are the desperate ones. Think it through. Why would the Russians want them there? The Ukraine/West narrative on this is bonkers.
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BRR.
So you won't even go back and re-assess what you incorrectly saw first time?
There WERE at least 14 clear strikes. You yourself said that only one of those appears to have made a direct hit. Given the relatively small explosive payload of each and the fact that the defending forces are likely to be using protective measures, it's unlikely that near-misses are going to be having a major deleterious effect. But that's a second order issue. The first order issue is that the Russians are just vaguely lobbing munitions into an area three times the size of a football pitch and hoping they roll a couple of sixes. That was the entire point I was making. I get that you will argue like f**k against it, because you don't like to see the Russians criticised. But that doesn't change the facts. Even if you refuse to see them in front of your own eyes.
You miss my point, ironically much like a multople rocket launcher might do. One direct hit - not a small explosion as you can see - is a "success" for a killing force. Three hits close by is also significant - shrapnel, blast effects etc. So 4 out of 14 if you say so. I've seen much worse. I wondered why you chose this one to illustrate your point?
And the real point, that you avoided answering, was this is the same for both Ukraine and Russia out in the battle ground - so what? When Ukraine is shelling civilians in a city intentionally where does that sit for you? When Ukraine is consistently using human shields, how do you feel about that?
Your one sidedness in this is mindblowing given that I know you have a discerning brain.
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BRR, I think I will believe a British Generals reading of the situation and live and recordings of Russian officers opinions before the statements and conclusions people like yourself gather from BBC news casts and Facebook.
Believe who you like, but wise to look behind the stories in as many ways as possible - and no, not FB or BBC. Or you can take the comfy way and just watch it play out and watch your government take your money and thow it into the war, and support policies that are costing you hundreds in fuel costs. How long are you happy to go along with that? Maybe you can afford it? Others can't. And it is ordinary people that are paying, mostly poorer ones. The richer ones just get rich on the crisis, they always do.What do the British Generals say about that?
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BRR, have you considered emigrating to live in Russia? You make it sound so much better than anywhere in The West.
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I have just read a report where Russian intercepted signals are reporting Ukrainian forces pushing down the sides of the Russian advance in some areas and the Russian advance forces are in danger of being surrounded.
If they are surrounded they will come in for some of their own medicine and will be bombarded.
Also the manpower reserves they have are of very poor quality as far as being recognised as a good fighting unit.
Progress from June 15 to June 22. Gorskoe and Zolotoe completely encircled, reportedly 2.5k Ukraines in that area. Guessing the Brit Generals are looking elsewhere?
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BRR, have you considered emigrating to live in Russia? You make it sound so much better than anywhere in The West.
I missed where I suggested that it was much better. Are you confusing me pointing out that the West may be doing a dirty, and getting itself in one almighty pickle, and telling its citizens lies, with me saying how the new version of McD's in Moscow is mouthwatering irrestistable? Both Russia and the West are imperialist aggressors, both lie, both have elites gorging on the cream from what ordinary people create. But then some people are content that they're "our" aggressors, "our" masters, "our" liars etc. Really?
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And it appears that a lot of the munitions being used by Russia are banned Internationally
&amp;amp;amp;quot;a lot&amp;amp;amp;quot;? Like the cluster bombs? ie the ones that Ukraine is also using? And the one's that spread anti personel mines?
Missing out Phosphorous and Thermobaric. Cluster bombs on civilians are illegal
Ukraine has used cluster bombs too. But it actually directly targets civilians (eg Donetsk), and uses them as human shields (eg Mariupol, Sieverodonetsk currently, NW of Donetsk currently). Russia may do do, but far less so - we'd have heard otherwise.
So are these the human shields that Russia wouldn't allow a safe passage to?
That the Ukraines wouldn't release. And won't release even now. They are the desperate ones. Think it through. Why would the Russians want them there? The Ukraine/West narrative on this is bonkers.
So why when Russia offered safe corridors and civilians were leaving did they decide to shell these corridors? Why do they want the civilians there to kill and frighten as many as possible so the next target they attack wont put up resistance or they know what they will get. Why is the Russisn tactic to obliterate there target, we've seen it before
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RR, I think you are referring to reports from Mariupol at various times. There are also reports of Ukraines shelling the corridors and Russians having to close them for the safety of the civilians. Which is true I don't know, maybe both. Certainly Ukraines are using human shields in a number of areas if not in general.
Why would Russians want civilians kept in with the Ukraine forces? Makes no sense. In your reply you seem to confuse Ukraine forces and civilians? They only want to kill the Ukraine forces. The civilians are not a threat, they put up no resistance.
Are you aware of the human shields held by Ukrainian forces in Mariupol a while back, currently in Sieverodonetsk, and in the area NW of Donetsk? Are you aware of the massive daily shelling of civilians in Donetsk by Ukraine? Sure civilians have died from Russian shelling too. The BBC etc only publish one side of the story. You have to search for real news.
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Real news or just what fits your agenda
Why shell civilians if they are no threat? Let me guess because they are just in the way as human shields?
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Real news or just what fits your agenda
Why shell civilians if they are no threat? Let me guess because they are just in the way as human shields?
The people in Donetsk aren't human shields. I think your question has to be who is sniping from behind a 60 year old woman who's being forced into that position. And are you okay with that action?
Please enlighten me about what my agenda is.
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Well the sources you quote says a lot
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Well the sources you quote says a lot
Maybe because I'm giving info that is censored in the west, info to offer perspectives outside what we're told to think. The other side you have fed down our TV etc.
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Well the sources you quote says a lot
Maybe because I'm giving info that is censored in the west, info to offer perspectives outside what we're told to think. The other side you have fed down our TV etc.
Some people don't want to see the possibility that the 'truth' is not what they are being fed by multinational big business,MSM,USA,EU et al. They are happy to be in a herd of sheep, agreeing with the narrative being pushed because it's 'right on' and trendy thing to do with their little blue and yellow flags in their windows. Half of them wouldn't even have been able to point out the region of Ukraine before this kicked off.
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Eh up. Our resident fascist is back.
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How predictable. I could have put money on it. The world according to BST.
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And plenty of others Adolf.
BobG
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It resembles a breeding ground for the UK's fifth column to me Billy, with a few leaders among them.
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And plenty of others Adolf.
BobG
You are Karl's brother Groucho and I claim my £5.
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And plenty of others Adolf.
BobG
Gullible brainwashed sheep. Baaa
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Russian troops killed hospital patients who refused to be deported in 'revenge'.
When Russian troops first entered Mariapol in March they attempted to clear Hospital No1 (presumably to use themselves). When staff and patients refused to move - they dropped a 500kg bomb on it.
https://www.itv.com/news/2022-06-20/they-burned-moscow-forces-bombed-hospital-patients-who-refused-to-be-deported
'human shields'
'gullible brainwashed sheep'
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Mayor: Russian occupiers kidnap people in Melitopol.
According to Mayor Ivan Fedorov, mass kidnappings resumed in Russian-occupied Melitopol in Zaporizhzhia Oblast last week. “More than 500 people have been abducted in the last four months," he said.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1540379558955941890
'human shields'
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Russian troops killed hospital patients who refused to be deported in 'revenge'.
When Russian troops first entered Mariapol in March they attempted to clear Hospital No1 (presumably to use themselves). When staff and patients refused to move - they dropped a 500kg bomb on it.
https://www.itv.com/news/2022-06-20/they-burned-moscow-forces-bombed-hospital-patients-who-refused-to-be-deported
'human shields'
'gullible brainwashed sheep'
Terrible if it is as those few witnesses are reported to have said. Pretty poorly evidenced at this point.
Are you certain Ukraine has never bombed/shelled hospitals?
And make light of the human shields if you like. That's plain sick, or maybe you don't believe it happens?
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Mayor: Russian occupiers kidnap people in Melitopol.
According to Mayor Ivan Fedorov, mass kidnappings resumed in Russian-occupied Melitopol in Zaporizhzhia Oblast last week. “More than 500 people have been abducted in the last four months," he said.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1540379558955941890
'human shields'
Is the Mayor reliable, or has he got interests? "kidnapped" in his translated words, tho quite probably includes arrests for a variety of reasons, probably not including being one of the oligarchs, or local gangsters as they'd have run away a long time before.
So, seems to be on the far fringes of hearsay.
Ooooh, I see you make light of human shields again. Can't you see how low that is? Would you use them?
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Even if somebody has 'interests', somebody has been arrested, somebody is an oligarch, or somebody is a gangster I really can't see how that makes the Mayor of Melitopol into a liar when he speaks about what the Russians have been doing. Yes. The guy is Ukrainian. Yes. He will be upset. Yes. He will likely exaggerate. But lie? I really don't get how you can say this is the 'fringes of hearsay'. If that were true, almost everything you have said, almost everything Billy has said, is equally unbelievable because it is 'hearsay'.
We all know, BRR, that both sides have agendas. We all know that reporting in this country is shamefully partisan with shameful agendas to drive. We all know that British television is terrified of its existance being torn out by the equally shameful government that the country is afflicted with - and so dare not perform the one function we need above all others. But none of that makes the Mayor of Melitopol a liar. None of that makes what is reported into something that you can condemn as hearsay. None of that justifies ignoring the supremely well documented atrocities committed by the Russians - even if the Ukrainians are committing atrocities of their own. If they are, they will be found out sooner or later. It is not for you to ignore the former and insist on the latter. Wars lead to terrible things. We, above almost all other nations should know that. Incontrovertibly the Russians are behaving like their Visigothic forbears. Highly probably, the Ukrainians will be doing likewise.
Leave it at that. This thread has become tiresome in the extreme.
BobG
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Even if somebody has 'interests', somebody has been arrested, somebody is an oligarch, or somebody is a gangster I really can't see how that makes the Mayor of Melitopol into a liar when he speaks about what the Russians have been doing. Yes. The guy is Ukrainian. Yes. He will be upset. Yes. He will likely exaggerate. But lie? I really don't get how you can say this is the 'fringes of hearsay'. If that were true, almost everything you have said, almost everything Billy has said, is equally unbelievable because it is 'hearsay'.
We all know, BRR, that both sides have agendas. We all know that reporting in this country is shamefully partisan with shameful agendas to drive. We all know that British television is terrified of its existance being torn out by the equally shameful government that the country is afflicted with - and so dare not perform the one function we need above all others. But none of that makes the Mayor of Melitopol a liar. None of that makes what is reported into something that you can condemn as hearsay. None of that justifies ignoring the supremely well documented atrocities committed by the Russians - even if the Ukrainians are committing atrocities of their own. If they are, they will be found out sooner or later. It is not for you to ignore the former and insist on the latter. Wars lead to terrible things. We, above almost all other nations should know that. Incontrovertibly the Russians are behaving like their Visigothic forbears. Highly probably, the Ukrainians will be doing likewise.
Leave it at that. This thread has become tiresome in the extreme.
BobG
A mayor in one of the more deeply corrupt countries in the world. You don't think he'd lie? Russia is probably on a par, but here it's a Ukrainian mayor. I don't know him, but neither do you or Wilts. "kidnappings" is emotive, and quite possibly untrue in at least some of those cases. Meanwhile, withouta full in dependant investigation, it is hearsay as much as that might trouble you.
We agree war brings atrocities. This is why it should have been, and could so easily have been averted. Shame on all those responsible.
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Of course BRR you forget that if Russia had kept theirselves in their own country there would be no war in Ukraine at all.
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Of course BRR you forget that if Russia had kept theirselves in their own country there would be no war in Ukraine at all.
Come on, let’s not bring common sense and facts into this argument
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Of course BRR you forget that if Russia had kept theirselves in their own country there would be no war in Ukraine at all.
I agree. And then Ukraine would be in NATO, and the EU having leapfrogged Serbia despite having possibly the most corrupt goverment amongst those wanting/having entry.
Gradual increase of weapons on Ukraine soil. Further use of the v dodgy chemical facilities.
Gradual removal of Russian language. Effectively making Russian speakers second class. Ukraine nationalists gaining power, complete with all that very dodgy philosophy and history.
Or maybe you believe the BBC?
Alternatively, NATO and EU could have assured Russia that Ukraine would not be a member. How easy is that?
I forgot, also the many murders of those peacefully objecting to the coup and EU/NATO alignment. Then the conscripting of outright Nazis to send into Russian speaking areas. But hey, why not ignore that and stick only to the Billy one sided " evil Russia invaded" story and have a nice cup of tea and biscuits and turn over to the sports pages.
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An interesting vid from a pro western news channel, France 24, showing a side of events not available on BBC. Watch if you have interest in the Ukraine situation, otherwise go back to your biscuit dunking and the cricket.
https://youtu.be/CcQJJIvakwo
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Let me get that right.
There's shelled buildings left right and centre.
There's Ukrainian soldiers all over the place.
But that woman insists it isn't the Russians who are attacking the city, it is the Ukrainians?
And this is supposed to make what point exactly?
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Meanwhile Zelensky is meeting Ben Stiller, hosting U2 concerts and doing his best 1984 act at Glastonbury,all done in his little green pristine costume.
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Meanwhile Zelensky is meeting Ben Stiller, hosting U2 concerts and doing his best 1984 act at Glastonbury,all done in his little green pristine costume.
Thanks for the info - although did you not know you are supposed to give both sides? So what is it Putin is doing?
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No I didn't know I was supposed to give two sides, is it in the vsc terms and conditions?
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No I didn't know I was supposed to give two sides, is it in the vsc terms and conditions?
No just this thread. You need to read back quite a few pages where a regular poster tells us we need to give both sides when discussing Ukraine.
I am sure he will forgive you this time but thought this might be useful info for future posts.
I am happy to believe that you are not biased to only one side because you have only posted about one side - but I can certainly see how other people can become suspicious about it...
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Nothing suspicious bro, Pootin plays his part in the theartre of war equally well, he's just better dressed and has less celebrity friends.
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Pootin plays his part
Yeah, those sneaky Ukrainians are just as bad as Putin. Especially all those civilians he is shelling - those bas**rds had it coming...
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I see Ukraine fired missiles at residential areas of Moscow today.
Oh. Sorry. Silly me. No they didn't, it was Russia who fired missiles at flats in Kyiv.
My mistake. So easy to get it wrong when you are trying to have a go at bothsidesism.
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Fascinating by the way, how much of an overlap there is on the Venn Diagram of "COVID sceptics" and "Ukraine bothsidesism".
I wonder what on earth could be the common denominator?
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Bullshit radar
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I see Ukraine fired missiles at residential areas of Moscow today.
Oh. Sorry. Silly me. No they didn't, it was Russia who fired missiles at flats in Kyiv.
My mistake. So easy to get it wrong when you are trying to have a go at bothsidesism.
Apparently an armaments factory across the road. If so, v careless, but not firing "at" civilians. Or maybe you have other info?
#billyblinkers
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I see Ukraine fired missiles at residential areas of Moscow today.
Oh. Sorry. Silly me. No they didn't, it was Russia who fired missiles at flats in Kyiv.
My mistake. So easy to get it wrong when you are trying to have a go at bothsidesism.
Apparently an armaments factory across the road. If so, v careless, but not firing "at" civilians. Or maybe you have other info?
#billyblinkersPootin plays his part
Yeah, those sneaky Ukrainians are just as bad as Putin. Especially all those civilians he is shelling - those bas**rds had it coming...
You miss the Ukraine shelling of Donetsk? And the continued use of human shields by Ukraine? Maybe you're wearing the same blinkers as BST?
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BRR.
And where do you get your information from that there was an armaments factory in Kyiv, next door to an apartment block? Source?
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BRR.
And where do you get your information from that there was an armaments factory in Kyiv, next door to an apartment block? Source?
You may be right, that it wasn't. However, there is a factory making helmets and other military equipment in that district of Kyiv. There may well be others
https://www.uarms.com.ua/home
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Meanwhile near Donetsk, Ukraine is targetting a monestery. Ukrainian forces are targeting the monastery near Donetsk - see attached vid
"The other day we ended up in the almshouse of the Holy Assumption Nikolo-Vasilyevsky Monastery, where old women live. But, thank God, there were no human casualties."
"Also this week, incendiary shells were fired at the building of St. Xenia the Blessed, where the sewing and icon-painting workshops are located, the second floor of the building burned down. In addition, only in recent days, the house of mercy, the fraternal building, and the bakery have been damaged."
"On the day the correspondent of the "Donbass decides" channel was in the Holy Assumption Nikolo-Vasilyevsky Monastery in the south of the DPR, the Ukrainian Armed Forces fired at the monastery twice."
"The shelling of the temples of the monastery by the artillery of the Armed Forces of Ukraine goes on continuously, although there are no military men close to that, but only hundreds of refugees are hiding."
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What's your source for the relative locations of the bombed domestic dwelling and this factory?
And as for "there may well be others". Jesus f**king Christ...
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Meanwhile near Donetsk, Ukraine is targetting a monestery. Ukrainian forces are targeting the monastery near Donetsk - see attached vid
"The other day we ended up in the almshouse of the Holy Assumption Nikolo-Vasilyevsky Monastery, where old women live. But, thank God, there were no human casualties."
"Also this week, incendiary shells were fired at the building of St. Xenia the Blessed, where the sewing and icon-painting workshops are located, the second floor of the building burned down. In addition, only in recent days, the house of mercy, the fraternal building, and the bakery have been damaged."
"On the day the correspondent of the "Donbass decides" channel was in the Holy Assumption Nikolo-Vasilyevsky Monastery in the south of the DPR, the Ukrainian Armed Forces fired at the monastery twice."
"The shelling of the temples of the monastery by the artillery of the Armed Forces of Ukraine goes on continuously, although there are no military men close to that, but only hundreds of refugees are hiding."
Source?
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What's your source for the relative locations of the bombed domestic dwelling and this factory?
And as for "there may well be others". Jesus f**king Christ...
I assume you haven't ever looked at this, but yes it's shocking that the city has arms manufacturers in populated areas. I understand your outrage.
From what I can make out that civilian building is across the street from the Artem Plant that makes rockets and missiles. The plant was hit directly. Another write up says that tower block was hit by the fall out from a Ukraine interception of a missile. Multiple sources, yes via Telegram, but then the BBC aren't going to broadcast this are they? I could chase sources further but you'll still want to believe it was Putin that personally aimed it at civilians.
Here's some mainstreaam info about a previous hit on this place https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-struck-kyiv-rocket-plant-with-missiles-2022-04-29/
Vid showing the explosions
https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1519831101358940164
You have to ask why Russia would want to be targetting a civilian residence, and pretty much miss (a direct hit would have caused far more damage, eg building gone), when it can be hitting military targets?
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Meanwhile near Donetsk, Ukraine is targetting a monestery. Ukrainian forces are targeting the monastery near Donetsk - see attached vid
&quot;The other day we ended up in the almshouse of the Holy Assumption Nikolo-Vasilyevsky Monastery, where old women live. But, thank God, there were no human casualties.&quot;
&quot;Also this week, incendiary shells were fired at the building of St. Xenia the Blessed, where the sewing and icon-painting workshops are located, the second floor of the building burned down. In addition, only in recent days, the house of mercy, the fraternal building, and the bakery have been damaged.&quot;
&quot;On the day the correspondent of the &quot;Donbass decides&quot; channel was in the Holy Assumption Nikolo-Vasilyevsky Monastery in the south of the DPR, the Ukrainian Armed Forces fired at the monastery twice.&quot;
&quot;The shelling of the temples of the monastery by the artillery of the Armed Forces of Ukraine goes on continuously, although there are no military men close to that, but only hundreds of refugees are hiding.&quot;
Source?
Erm.... watch the vid. It's currently on the front line about 10 miles SW of Donetsk.
Т0509, Mykil's'ke, Donetsk Oblast, Ukraine, 85720
Go to satellite and zoom in and you can see the buildings.
Though in BST land, the judgement would be that the Russians are shelling it?
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What's your source for the relative locations of the bombed domestic dwelling and this factory?
And as for "there may well be others". Jesus f**king Christ...
So hopefully you understand Ukraine manufactures missiles next to, or in amongst, residential areas. A left over from Soviet days perhaps?
Here's the Russian Mod version of events. Makes more sense than the western media version. Maybe the truth lies somewhere between?
On June 26, Russian Aerospace Forces launched 4 high-precision air-based missiles at the workshops of Artyom missile corporation located in Shevchenkovsky district of Kiev. This enterprise produced ordnance for Ukrainian multiple rocket-launching systems (MRLS).
According to live recording data, all of the 4 missiles have reached the target. The facility has been neutralised. Civilian infrastructure of Kiev has not been affected by high-precision armament.
Kiev regime attempted to intercept Russian high-precision missiles by the means of air defence deployed in the city. Ukrainian S-300 and Buk-M1 air defence system crews had launched over 10 air defence missiles.
Due to lack of interoperability between the launching ramps of the air defence systems and electronic facilities deployed in residential areas, 2 S-300 air defence missiles have been intercepted by Ukrainian Buk systems. One of the intercepted air defence missiles has presumably fallen down to a residential building.
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Fascinating by the way, how much of an overlap there is on the Venn Diagram of "COVID sceptics" and "Ukraine bothsidesism".
I wonder what on earth could be the common denominator?
Would you like to share that info for all or did you just make it up to suit your narrative again.
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Are there any depths Putin won't sink to murder civilians.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-61941287
Not too long ago a radio intercept caught a Russian General ordering his artillery battalion to aim at civilian targets. Seems to be a tactic to take out supermarkets and shops as part of their early stages of lattening of towns.
Is he trying to incite WW3 and will he succeed?
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Are there any depths Putin won't sink to murder civilians.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-61941287
Not too long ago a radio intercept caught a Russian General ordering his artillery battalion to aim at civilian targets. Seems to be a tactic to take out supermarkets and shops as part of their early stages of lattening of towns.
Is he trying to incite WW3 and will he succeed?
It's scandalous that they've been allowed to get away with if for so long, i wonder how far this will be allowed to persist.
It doesn't help when you have people like Macron with his raving hard on thinking he has any influence in these matters. His posturing has made it almost acceptable to some that Putin can push the envelope until it's closing in om itself. This pillock should of been told in no uncertain terms to wind his neck in, his constant communications with Putin has not helped, he's better off leaving this to the professionals. The EU really need to tell this pipsqueak to concentrate on his home affairs before he manages to completely fu*k that up also.
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What's your source for the relative locations of the bombed domestic dwelling and this factory?
And as for &quot;there may well be others&quot;. Jesus f**king Christ...
I assume you haven't ever looked at this, but yes it's shocking that the city has arms manufacturers in populated areas. I understand your outrage.
From what I can make out that civilian building is across the street from the Artem Plant that makes rockets and missiles. The plant was hit directly. Another write up says that tower block was hit by the fall out from a Ukraine interception of a missile. Multiple sources, yes via Telegram, but then the BBC aren't going to broadcast this are they? I could chase sources further but you'll still want to believe it was Putin that personally aimed it at civilians.
Here's some mainstreaam info about a previous hit on this place https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russia-says-struck-kyiv-rocket-plant-with-missiles-2022-04-29/
Vid showing the explosions
https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1519831101358940164
You have to ask why Russia would want to be targetting a civilian residence, and pretty much miss (a direct hit would have caused far more damage, eg building gone), when it can be hitting military targets?
Go on. "From what you can make out". What does that mean? Have you done your own analysis of where the buildings that we hit were, and where the Artem factory is?
And how do you know what is done at the Artem factory? Do they fit explosives and propellant into rockets at the site? And if so, where is your source?
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Are there any depths Putin won't sink to murder civilians.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-61941287
Not too long ago a radio intercept caught a Russian General ordering his artillery battalion to aim at civilian targets. Seems to be a tactic to take out supermarkets and shops as part of their early stages of lattening of towns.
Is he trying to incite WW3 and will he succeed?
No doubt someone will be along to tell us the Ukrainians were making hats there or something and thus it's a justifiable target.
Standing up to Russia is worth the economic hit, this just reinforces that.
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Are there any depths Putin won't sink to murder civilians.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-61941287
Not too long ago a radio intercept caught a Russian General ordering his artillery battalion to aim at civilian targets. Seems to be a tactic to take out supermarkets and shops as part of their early stages of lattening of towns.
Is he trying to incite WW3 and will he succeed?
Agreed, this is outrageous. Guessing you are also meaning that Ukraines doing the same are excused or doing it without consent of generals?
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Are there any depths Putin won't sink to murder civilians.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-61941287
Not too long ago a radio intercept caught a Russian General ordering his artillery battalion to aim at civilian targets. Seems to be a tactic to take out supermarkets and shops as part of their early stages of lattening of towns.
Is he trying to incite WW3 and will he succeed?
No doubt someone will be along to tell us the Ukrainians were making hats there or something and thus it's a justifiable target.
Standing up to Russia is worth the economic hit, this just reinforces that.
What a naff reply. Sorry to hear you've been recuited into the Billy Blinkers Brigade ;)
There was a missile factory in the region of the previous disaster, and then also it was said that the damage was cause by air defense, you judge, but use your brain and think about the more likely reasons.
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BRR.
Please give us your sources from which you derive your conclusions.
Only, from what I have seen, the missile strikes were about 300m to the east of the Zavod Artem building.
GeoLocation of the missile strikes
https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1541072713497952256
https://www.google.com/maps/place/50%C2%B027'44.5%22N+30%C2%B029'14.3%22E/@50.4619001,30.4854194,17.01z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x699da0a42525c1ed!8m2!3d50.46237!4d30.4873!5m1!1e4
(Zavod Artem is about 300m to the West of that GeoLocation).
And as far as I can see, there is zero evidence other than Russian propaganda, that missiles are made in the Artem building. Certainly, on Google Street View, the Artem Building looks nothing like a factory - more a rundown office.
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.4619546,30.4830697,3a,75y,352.79h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siqpr1Pttud-3bEULJcxhuQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e4
And of course this could be a cover, but the Zavod Artem website says they are a supplier of domestic electrical equipment.
https://td-artem.prom.ua/
I assume you have more definitive data to support your assertions?
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The Ukrainian defense ministry said the strike was deliberately timed to coincide with the mall's busiest hours and cause the maximum number of victims.
The Ukrainian air force said the mall was hit by Kh-22 anti-ship missiles fired from Tu-22 bombers from the region of Kursk in western Russia.
"The missile fire on Kremenchuk struck a very busy area which had no link to the hostilities," the city's mayor Vitali Maletsky wrote on Facebook.
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/06/27/at-least-10-killed-in-missile-strike-on-ukrainian-shopping-mall-a78123
The Kh-22 is an anti-ship missile, highly inaccurate and not intended for us against ground targets. Such missiles “are highly inaccurate and therefore can cause severe collateral damage and casualties.”
Use of them in this way, on this target, is a war crime.
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Are there any depths Putin won't sink to murder civilians.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-61941287
Not too long ago a radio intercept caught a Russian General ordering his artillery battalion to aim at civilian targets. Seems to be a tactic to take out supermarkets and shops as part of their early stages of lattening of towns.
Is he trying to incite WW3 and will he succeed?
Agreed, this is outrageous. Guessing you are also meaning that Ukraines doing the same are excused or doing it without consent of generals?
I'm just merely expressing my outrage as a human being.
As far as I'm concerned Russia is the aggressor and whatever Ukraine do to strike back at Putin is OK by me.
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Ah but it's ok for the Russians to do that Wilts. The Ukrainians are probably doing the same......
BobG
:):):)
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In my eyes collateral damage from an air and missile attack is always the fault and blame of the attacker who has caused the situation by choosing a target where this is possible. Even if the damage was technically caused by debris from air defence missiles or targets these defence missiles had hit, the attacker is fully to blame. BTW I am no expert but the pictures of the apartment block I have seen look more like damage from an explosion than being hit by debris.
Compare that with NATO's first ever offensive mission against Bosnian Serb air defences in which the Theatre Air Commander personally vetted all targets on a daily basis to make sure there was no chance of collateral damage.
Source: 'Deliberate Force, an Air Study in Air Campaigning' by Col Robert C Owen (which backs up my personal experience as part of an after action Lessons Learned team)
Putin and his Commanders have at best taken no account whatsoever of civilian casualties on regularly repeated occasions (Theatres, Churches, Schools, Hospitals, Supermarkets.......), and at worst are deliberately targeting them which is a war crime pure and simple.
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Russian troops apparently set their own lorries on fire to avoid being sent to the front:
https://twitter.com/mi6rogue/status/1541480266765574151
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DU
We shouldn't be surprised at Putin doing this. He did it in Grozny. He did it in Aleppo.
He's a savage.
We shouldn't be surprised. Just depressed at intelligent people willingly being duped by him.
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Btw the Kremlin line to take on the supermarket missile strike today is:
Pro-Kremlin Telegram channels have already begun spinning a narrative about the missile strike on the Kremenchuk shopping center, claiming it was a “false flag” and calling it “Bucha 2.0”
https://twitter.com/EilishHart/status/1541443743085109249
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Apologies if this has been covered.
I’m just intrigued how and when people think this might end?
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This. Sums it up exactly.
https://mobile.twitter.com/VSvartdal/status/1541506307991257092
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Apologies if this has been covered.
I’m just intrigued how and when people think this might end?
Only Putin can end it. This will be when either:
a) he has wiped Ukraine off the map
b) Ukraine has become strong enough to start pushing him back from where he is now
c) the Russian troops refuse to fight and the Russians overthrow him
Only a) or b) seems likely at the moment and the west/NATO appear to be providing enough weaponry to stop a) but not to allow b). I think it will be going on a while yet - then c) gets more likely.
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Please let's see the day when Putin faces justice one way or another.
How long can the NATO troops amassing on the boarders be held back?
I would imagine the Military head honchos have already planned how to hit Russian targets should the nod be given.
Surely the world leaders can summon enough courage to put an end to all this and rid the world of this sub human despot.
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Are there any depths Putin won't sink to murder civilians.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-europe-61941287
Not too long ago a radio intercept caught a Russian General ordering his artillery battalion to aim at civilian targets. Seems to be a tactic to take out supermarkets and shops as part of their early stages of lattening of towns.
Is he trying to incite WW3 and will he succeed?
Agreed, this is outrageous. Guessing you are also meaning that Ukraines doing the same are excused or doing it without consent of generals?
I'm just merely expressing my outrage as a human being.
As far as I'm concerned Russia is the aggressor and whatever Ukraine do to strike back at Putin is OK by me.
Including deliberately killing innocent civilians. Right...
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Apologies if this has been covered.
I’m just intrigued how and when people think this might end?
Only Putin can end it. This will be when either:
a) he has wiped Ukraine off the map
b) Ukraine has become strong enough to start pushing him back from where he is now
c) the Russian troops refuse to fight and the Russians overthrow him
Only a) or b) seems likely at the moment and the west/NATO appear to be providing enough weaponry to stop a) but not to allow b). I think it will be going on a while yet - then c) gets more likely.
Or when what Russia sees as Russian territories, for whatever reason, are taken - 1/3 to 1/2 of what Ukraine was? At the mo, that appears to be approx Kharkiv downwards and a 50 to 100 mile strip over as far as Moldova.
Russia states a desire to "de nazify" Ukraine too. It is loaded with dodgy thigs, but then so is Russia. And most nations for that matter, including ours.
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Btw the Kremlin line to take on the supermarket missile strike today is:
Pro-Kremlin Telegram channels have already begun spinning a narrative about the missile strike on the Kremenchuk shopping center, claiming it was a “false flag” and calling it “Bucha 2.0”
https://twitter.com/EilishHart/status/1541443743085109249
Putting your bias aside for this, first do you agree that false flags occur? If so, wouldn't it make sense for a totally desperate Ukraine, who are clearly losing this war, to use all methods available to get support?
Would it also make sense for Russia to avoid what appears to be hitting a target of no military value?
And then we wait to see the evidence that this was a Russian strike. Assuming it was, you again have to think why would they do this deliberately? Maybe they did? But as you can see, the shopping centre is v close to the railway station, possibly a target as it is a crossing point for the Ukraine rail system, a much needed one following the recent destruction of the rail bridge upstream. More likely, is the industrial area the other side of the railway was targeted, an industrial area being used for military purposes.
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No it would be absolutely dumb, due to the risk of being found out.
Wasn't it you trumpeting the accuracy of russian ordnance only a few days ago BRR?
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No it would be absolutely dumb, due to the risk of being found out.
Wasn't it you trumpeting the accuracy of russian ordnance only a few days ago BRR?
Go back and re read that, I was saying how BST used a terrible example. I'd see much worse targeting.
But this wasn't a multi rocket attack, it seems it was a missile attack. Why that was in accurate, who knows.
As for false flags. Yep, they would look daft, but then it's for short term gain, so I doubt that will be a consideration. Further, Ukraine has control of western media via its support from NATO.
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Btw the Kremlin line to take on the supermarket missile strike today is:
Pro-Kremlin Telegram channels have already begun spinning a narrative about the missile strike on the Kremenchuk shopping center, claiming it was a “false flag” and calling it “Bucha 2.0”
https://twitter.com/EilishHart/status/1541443743085109249
Putting your bias aside for this, first do you agree that false flags occur? If so, wouldn't it make sense for a totally desperate Ukraine, who are clearly losing this war, to use all methods available to get support?
Would it also make sense for Russia to avoid what appears to be hitting a target of no military value?
And then we wait to see the evidence that this was a Russian strike.
Oh aye. False flag operations happen alright. Like the Moscow apartment block bombings that Putin used as his reason for obliterating Grozny.
Why would it make sense for Russia to do this? Because they don't give a f**k about public opinion. They are terrorists in the precise meaning of the word. Their military strategy is to terrorise their opponents.
And much as the odd Useful Idiot in the West is helpful to them, at core they want to be seen as the terrorists they are. Did you hear Lavrov last week being interviewed. He started by trotting out exactly the same excuses that you do. NATO. EU. De-Nazification. Ukraine aggression. Then he lost his cool and said the single most chilling line I have heard from a European leader since WWII. He said "Russia is not squeaky clean. Russia is what it is. And we are not ashamed of showing who we are."
You carry on posting excuses for them. People like you will be villified for all time by right thinking people, assuming we survive this.
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No it would be absolutely dumb, due to the risk of being found out.
Wasn't it you trumpeting the accuracy of russian ordnance only a few days ago BRR?
Go back and re read that, I was saying how BST used a terrible example. I'd see much worse targeting.
But this wasn't a multi rocket attack, it seems it was a missile attack. Why that was in accurate, who knows.
As for false flags. Yep, they would look daft, but then it's for short term gain, so I doubt that will be a consideration. Further, Ukraine has control of western media via its support from NATO.
Not as daft as your arguments BRR, look how the downing of an aircraft and the murder of innocent people was found out and modern radar tracking can determine the flight path of incoming and work out the point of origin.
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Btw the Kremlin line to take on the supermarket missile strike today is:
Pro-Kremlin Telegram channels have already begun spinning a narrative about the missile strike on the Kremenchuk shopping center, claiming it was a “false flag” and calling it “Bucha 2.0”
https://twitter.com/EilishHart/status/1541443743085109249
Putting your bias aside for this, first do you agree that false flags occur? If so, wouldn't it make sense for a totally desperate Ukraine, who are clearly losing this war, to use all methods available to get support?
Would it also make sense for Russia to avoid what appears to be hitting a target of no military value?
And then we wait to see the evidence that this was a Russian strike.
Oh aye. False flag operations happen alright. Like the Moscow apartment block bombings that Putin used as his reason for obliterating Grozny.
Why would it make sense for Russia to do this? Because they don't give a f**k about public opinion. They are terrorists in the precise meaning of the word. Their military strategy is to terrorise their opponents.
And much as the odd Useful Idiot in the West is helpful to them, at core they want to be seen as the terrorists they are. Did you hear Lavrov last week being interviewed. He started by trotting out exactly the same excuses that you do. NATO. EU. De-Nazification. Ukraine aggression. Then he lost his cool and said the single most chilling line I have heard from a European leader since WWII. He said "Russia is not squeaky clean. Russia is what it is. And we are not ashamed of showing who we are."
You carry on posting excuses for them. People like you will be villified for all time by right thinking people, assuming we survive this.
Get a grip. Britain is not squeaky clean, the US is positively filthy - and effectively runs NATO. Or maybe you have a thoroughly blinkered view of the world?
Are you saying the USA has never performed, or sponsored, false flags?
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No it would be absolutely dumb, due to the risk of being found out.
Wasn't it you trumpeting the accuracy of russian ordnance only a few days ago BRR?
Go back and re read that, I was saying how BST used a terrible example. I'd see much worse targeting.
But this wasn't a multi rocket attack, it seems it was a missile attack. Why that was in accurate, who knows.
As for false flags. Yep, they would look daft, but then it's for short term gain, so I doubt that will be a consideration. Further, Ukraine has control of western media via its support from NATO.
Not as daft as your arguments BRR, look how the downing of an aircraft and the murder of innocent people was found out and modern radar tracking can determine the flight path of incoming and work out the point of origin.
Huh?
-
Apologies if this has been covered.
I’m just intrigued how and when people think this might end?
Only Putin can end it. This will be when either:
a) he has wiped Ukraine off the map
b) Ukraine has become strong enough to start pushing him back from where he is now
c) the Russian troops refuse to fight and the Russians overthrow him
Only a) or b) seems likely at the moment and the west/NATO appear to be providing enough weaponry to stop a) but not to allow b). I think it will be going on a while yet - then c) gets more likely.
I suppose there is a d) Putin might peg it because of I'll health. Then we either get a more determined militaristic Russian leader or there is a shake up for the better.
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BRR.
Please give us your sources from which you derive your conclusions.
Only, from what I have seen, the missile strikes were about 300m to the east of the Zavod Artem building.
GeoLocation of the missile strikes
https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1541072713497952256
https://www.google.com/maps/place/50%C2%B027'44.5%22N+30%C2%B029'14.3%22E/@50.4619001,30.4854194,17.01z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x699da0a42525c1ed!8m2!3d50.46237!4d30.4873!5m1!1e4
(Zavod Artem is about 300m to the West of that GeoLocation).
And as far as I can see, there is zero evidence other than Russian propaganda, that missiles are made in the Artem building. Certainly, on Google Street View, the Artem Building looks nothing like a factory - more a rundown office.
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.4619546,30.4830697,3a,75y,352.79h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siqpr1Pttud-3bEULJcxhuQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e4
And of course this could be a cover, but the Zavod Artem website says they are a supplier of domestic electrical equipment.
https://td-artem.prom.ua/
I assume you have more definitive data to support your assertions?
So. No response?
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Btw the Kremlin line to take on the supermarket missile strike today is:
Pro-Kremlin Telegram channels have already begun spinning a narrative about the missile strike on the Kremenchuk shopping center, claiming it was a “false flag” and calling it “Bucha 2.0”
https://twitter.com/EilishHart/status/1541443743085109249
Putting your bias aside for this, first do you agree that false flags occur? If so, wouldn't it make sense for a totally desperate Ukraine, who are clearly losing this war, to use all methods available to get support?
Would it also make sense for Russia to avoid what appears to be hitting a target of no military value?
And then we wait to see the evidence that this was a Russian strike. Assuming it was, you again have to think why would they do this deliberately? Maybe they did? But as you can see, the shopping centre is v close to the railway station, possibly a target as it is a crossing point for the Ukraine rail system, a much needed one following the recent destruction of the rail bridge upstream. More likely, is the industrial area the other side of the railway was targeted, an industrial area being used for military purposes.
Putting your bias aside do you think the Russian government might be habitual liars?
The rest of you post is meaningless and the answer to the first question found in history books about covert operations. I'll lend you some.
-
Apologies if this has been covered.
I’m just intrigued how and when people think this might end?
Only Putin can end it. This will be when either:
a) he has wiped Ukraine off the map
b) Ukraine has become strong enough to start pushing him back from where he is now
c) the Russian troops refuse to fight and the Russians overthrow him
Only a) or b) seems likely at the moment and the west/NATO appear to be providing enough weaponry to stop a) but not to allow b). I think it will be going on a while yet - then c) gets more likely.
Or when what Russia sees as Russian territories, for whatever reason, are taken - 1/3 to 1/2 of what Ukraine was? At the mo, that appears to be approx Kharkiv downwards and a 50 to 100 mile strip over as far as Moldova.
Russia states a desire to "de nazify" Ukraine too. It is loaded with dodgy thigs, but then so is Russia. And most nations for that matter, including ours.
Then why did they head for Kyiv in the inital invasion?
Putin has said his goal is to wipe Ukraine off the map - its an illegal state and historically part of Russia. This is one of the few occassions when I do believe him. As for de-nazification you have already seen what he means by that - its Ukraine without Ukranians in it.
I stand by my first assesment - he wont be stopping until he has reached the Polish/Romanian borders unless he is forced to.
-
BRR.
Please give us your sources from which you derive your conclusions.
Only, from what I have seen, the missile strikes were about 300m to the east of the Zavod Artem building.
GeoLocation of the missile strikes
https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1541072713497952256
https://www.google.com/maps/place/50%C2%B027'44.5%22N+30%C2%B029'14.3%22E/@50.4619001,30.4854194,17.01z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x699da0a42525c1ed!8m2!3d50.46237!4d30.4873!5m1!1e4
(Zavod Artem is about 300m to the West of that GeoLocation).
And as far as I can see, there is zero evidence other than Russian propaganda, that missiles are made in the Artem building. Certainly, on Google Street View, the Artem Building looks nothing like a factory - more a rundown office.
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.4619546,30.4830697,3a,75y,352.79h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siqpr1Pttud-3bEULJcxhuQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e4
And of course this could be a cover, but the Zavod Artem website says they are a supplier of domestic electrical equipment.
https://td-artem.prom.ua/
I assume you have more definitive data to support your assertions?
So. No response?
Google. It's a munitions factory.
-
Btw the Kremlin line to take on the supermarket missile strike today is:
Pro-Kremlin Telegram channels have already begun spinning a narrative about the missile strike on the Kremenchuk shopping center, claiming it was a “false flag” and calling it “Bucha 2.0”
https://twitter.com/EilishHart/status/1541443743085109249
Putting your bias aside for this, first do you agree that false flags occur? If so, wouldn't it make sense for a totally desperate Ukraine, who are clearly losing this war, to use all methods available to get support?
Would it also make sense for Russia to avoid what appears to be hitting a target of no military value?
And then we wait to see the evidence that this was a Russian strike. Assuming it was, you again have to think why would they do this deliberately? Maybe they did? But as you can see, the shopping centre is v close to the railway station, possibly a target as it is a crossing point for the Ukraine rail system, a much needed one following the recent destruction of the rail bridge upstream. More likely, is the industrial area the other side of the railway was targeted, an industrial area being used for military purposes.
Putting your bias aside do you think the Russian government might be habitual liars?
The rest of you post is meaningless and the answer to the first question found in history books about covert operations. I'll lend you some.
For sure, just like all nations. I hear the UK is run by an habitual liar?
So you agree about false flags being a normal process of politics.
-
I see the latest line from Moscow is that it was a disused shopping centre
-
BRR.
Please give us your sources from which you derive your conclusions.
Only, from what I have seen, the missile strikes were about 300m to the east of the Zavod Artem building.
GeoLocation of the missile strikes
https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1541072713497952256
https://www.google.com/maps/place/50%C2%B027'44.5%22N+30%C2%B029'14.3%22E/@50.4619001,30.4854194,17.01z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x699da0a42525c1ed!8m2!3d50.46237!4d30.4873!5m1!1e4
(Zavod Artem is about 300m to the West of that GeoLocation).
And as far as I can see, there is zero evidence other than Russian propaganda, that missiles are made in the Artem building. Certainly, on Google Street View, the Artem Building looks nothing like a factory - more a rundown office.
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.4619546,30.4830697,3a,75y,352.79h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siqpr1Pttud-3bEULJcxhuQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e4
And of course this could be a cover, but the Zavod Artem website says they are a supplier of domestic electrical equipment.
https://td-artem.prom.ua/
I assume you have more definitive data to support your assertions?
So. No response?
Google. It's a munitions factory.
Are you for real? I genuinely thought you were treating this seriously.
And even if we take on board this "Google says it so I believe it" approach, the missiles destroyed residential buildings 300m from that factory. So what possible evidence do you have that it was the factory that was being targetted?
Here's a thought! Perhaps you are just regurgitating propaganda from Russia-supporting agents? That would appear to be the logical conclusion.
-
Apologies if this has been covered.
I’m just intrigued how and when people think this might end?
Only Putin can end it. This will be when either:
a) he has wiped Ukraine off the map
b) Ukraine has become strong enough to start pushing him back from where he is now
c) the Russian troops refuse to fight and the Russians overthrow him
Only a) or b) seems likely at the moment and the west/NATO appear to be providing enough weaponry to stop a) but not to allow b). I think it will be going on a while yet - then c) gets more likely.
Or when what Russia sees as Russian territories, for whatever reason, are taken - 1/3 to 1/2 of what Ukraine was? At the mo, that appears to be approx Kharkiv downwards and a 50 to 100 mile strip over as far as Moldova.
Russia states a desire to &quot;de nazify&quot; Ukraine too. It is loaded with dodgy thigs, but then so is Russia. And most nations for that matter, including ours.
Then why did they head for Kyiv in the inital invasion?
Putin has said his goal is to wipe Ukraine off the map - its an illegal state and historically part of Russia. This is one of the few occassions when I do believe him. As for de-nazification you have already seen what he means by that - its Ukraine without Ukranians in it.
I stand by my first assesment - he wont be stopping until he has reached the Polish/Romanian borders unless he is forced to.
To take literally what someone says about their intentions can be a foolish way to live your life. They may say that for all kinds of reasons, I'm sure you have enough nouse to realise that.
As I said before, Ukraine means the edge, the border. It has historically been a region, not a place, of fluctuation between a great many different forces or nations. As a kind of buffer zone between Russia and Europe it was fullfilling a purpose, when that changed with NATO and the EU encouraging it into their fold by carrot for the mouth, and carrot for the ass, then the staus quo changed. The coup was the final part in that which burst the bubble. So when one of the forces involved says what was said, context is king.
Denazification - well, there is a strong element of Nazi culture within Ukraine, some of their hero's, some of it their mobster rulers, and some it in their government. And you know about the right wing nationalists who were given guns and tanks and sent to the Donbass. The background to the violent aggression I think that's what's being spoken about. I think removing that from Eastern and Southern Ukraine will most likely be as far as that goes. On balance, in itself, ignoring the warring to achieve that, it's a good thing. Playing it down is a bad thing, though most clearly what the West does. And then of course Russia taking over creates a new level of mobsters in those areas. An improvement maybe marginally, maybe not.
Seeing the above as part of a full takeover of Ukraine is just taking words too literally. Words on a bus if you like.
Russia headed for Kyiv to try it on, and to distract Ukraine troops from the other regions where it consequently very easily seized territory. I'm sure if the Ikraines had laid down their arms, Russia would have happily taken over. Did it, does it want control over the whole of Ukraine? I doubt it. It's a logistical nightmare. Taking a third to a quarter roughly in the areas it has done, plus Khakiv and over to Moldova would be perfect for Russia.
However, as this war progresses, Ukraine collapses ever quicker, there may be a time when taking the whole country is served on a plate for Russia.
Estonia with its partial blockade of Kaliningrad opens up a can of worms. I can see that being a far bigger source of world ending danger than Ukraine.
-
BRR.
Please give us your sources from which you derive your conclusions.
Only, from what I have seen, the missile strikes were about 300m to the east of the Zavod Artem building.
GeoLocation of the missile strikes
https://twitter.com/GeoConfirmed/status/1541072713497952256
https://www.google.com/maps/place/50%C2%B027'44.5%22N+30%C2%B029'14.3%22E/@50.4619001,30.4854194,17.01z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x699da0a42525c1ed!8m2!3d50.46237!4d30.4873!5m1!1e4
(Zavod Artem is about 300m to the West of that GeoLocation).
And as far as I can see, there is zero evidence other than Russian propaganda, that missiles are made in the Artem building. Certainly, on Google Street View, the Artem Building looks nothing like a factory - more a rundown office.
https://www.google.com/maps/@50.4619546,30.4830697,3a,75y,352.79h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siqpr1Pttud-3bEULJcxhuQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!5m1!1e4
And of course this could be a cover, but the Zavod Artem website says they are a supplier of domestic electrical equipment.
https://td-artem.prom.ua/
I assume you have more definitive data to support your assertions?
So. No response?
Google. It's a munitions factory.
Are you for real? I genuinely thought you were treating this seriously.
And even if we take on board this "Google says it so I believe it" approach, the missiles destroyed residential buildings 300m from that factory. So what possible evidence do you have that it was the factory that was being targetted?
Here's a thought! Perhaps you are just regurgitating propaganda from Russia-supporting agents? That would appear to be the logical conclusion.
You can't find the info on google? Ah, well.
You have evidence that it was a missile? I'm not saying it wasn't but quite possibly not. Was it targetted, of course not. Did the allies murder people in Dresden, Hiroshima - come on, this is war, shit happens, sometime by pure accident, sometimes by carelessness, and sometimes by intention.
The big deal, and something you purposefully avoided replying to a good while back (why?) , is finding a solution to the problem. What would you do?
-
It's interesting how the issue of war crimes comes up, and most in this discussion have been suckered into the politics of this.
On the one hand, a missile or shell falling on the wrong target is a war crime - whether by accident or intent. On the other hand, conning mainly disaffected brainwashed working class youths into joining a military and laying down their lives isn't a crime. Of course this has been war throughout history, although through the vast majority of history part of the deal of being a warrior was permission to rape and pillage. That has now been officially taken away in most countries and replaced by nationalist ideals of all kinds aimed at the poorer classes. It stinks.
-
Apologies if this has been covered.
I’m just intrigued how and when people think this might end?
Only Putin can end it. This will be when either:
a) he has wiped Ukraine off the map
b) Ukraine has become strong enough to start pushing him back from where he is now
c) the Russian troops refuse to fight and the Russians overthrow him
Only a) or b) seems likely at the moment and the west/NATO appear to be providing enough weaponry to stop a) but not to allow b). I think it will be going on a while yet - then c) gets more likely.
Or when what Russia sees as Russian territories, for whatever reason, are taken - 1/3 to 1/2 of what Ukraine was? At the mo, that appears to be approx Kharkiv downwards and a 50 to 100 mile strip over as far as Moldova.
Russia states a desire to &quot;de nazify&quot; Ukraine too. It is loaded with dodgy thigs, but then so is Russia. And most nations for that matter, including ours.
Then why did they head for Kyiv in the inital invasion?
Putin has said his goal is to wipe Ukraine off the map - its an illegal state and historically part of Russia. This is one of the few occassions when I do believe him. As for de-nazification you have already seen what he means by that - its Ukraine without Ukranians in it.
I stand by my first assesment - he wont be stopping until he has reached the Polish/Romanian borders unless he is forced to.
To take literally what someone says about their intentions can be a foolish way to live your life. They may say that for all kinds of reasons, I'm sure you have enough nouse to realise that.
As I said before, Ukraine means the edge, the border. It has historically been a region, not a place, of fluctuation between a great many different forces or nations. As a kind of buffer zone between Russia and Europe it was fullfilling a purpose, when that changed with NATO and the EU encouraging it into their fold by carrot for the mouth, and carrot for the ass, then the staus quo changed. The coup was the final part in that which burst the bubble. So when one of the forces involved says what was said, context is king.
Denazification - well, there is a strong element of Nazi culture within Ukraine, some of their hero's, some of it their mobster rulers, and some it in their government. And you know about the right wing nationalists who were given guns and tanks and sent to the Donbass. The background to the violent aggression I think that's what's being spoken about. I think removing that from Eastern and Southern Ukraine will most likely be as far as that goes. On balance, in itself, ignoring the warring to achieve that, it's a good thing. Playing it down is a bad thing, though most clearly what the West does. And then of course Russia taking over creates a new level of mobsters in those areas. An improvement maybe marginally, maybe not.
Seeing the above as part of a full takeover of Ukraine is just taking words too literally. Words on a bus if you like.
Russia headed for Kyiv to try it on, and to distract Ukraine troops from the other regions where it consequently very easily seized territory. I'm sure if the Ikraines had laid down their arms, Russia would have happily taken over. Did it, does it want control over the whole of Ukraine? I doubt it. It's a logistical nightmare. Taking a third to a quarter roughly in the areas it has done, plus Khakiv and over to Moldova would be perfect for Russia.
However, as this war progresses, Ukraine collapses ever quicker, there may be a time when taking the whole country is served on a plate for Russia.
Estonia with its partial blockade of Kaliningrad opens up a can of worms. I can see that being a far bigger source of world ending danger than Ukraine.
The baltic states like to play Billy Big Balls hiding behind NATO. Is it Latvia where they still have a commemoration day every year for the SS?
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The baltic states like to play Billy Big Balls hiding behind NATO. Is it Latvia where they still have a commemoration day every year for the SS?
It is.
And I meant Lithuania in the previous post not Estonia!
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You have evidence that it was a missile? I'm not saying it wasn't but quite possibly not.
Do you not have this information from your relentless searching for balanced sources? And your constant fact checking of Russian propoganda? If not - why not - it's easy to find:
CCTV showing the two missiles arriving. First one hits the shopping centre, second one a car plant:
https://twitter.com/Liveuamap/status/1541536257716764672
Offical announcement from Russian MOD on the attack on the Kremenchuk shoping cente:
they hit "a train with weapons from the West", after which a detonation occurred and a fire engulfed a non-functioning shopping center nearby.
https://twitter.com/Flash43191300/status/1541707083195760640
Later changed to munitions being stored in a nearby machinery facory (that has not manufactured machinery since 1989 - it was a car plant) 'Detonation of the storaged munitions caused a fire in a non-functioning shopping centre next to the facilities of the plant.'
https://twitter.com/RussianEmbassy/status/1541718651593695233
Satellite images show the destroyed shopping centre and car plant - with intact buildings in-between & no damage to the railway
https://twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1541800890658684928
CCTV showing the first impact was the shopping mall - the second was the car plant
https://twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1541801641766260737
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The bombing was carried out by 52nd Guards Aviation Regiment (two Kh-22 missiles fired from Tu-22M3 long-range bombers):
https://twitter.com/Flash43191300/status/1541505566056628226
These are the pilots who fired the missiles
https://twitter.com/Flash43191300/status/1541693527104667648
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You have evidence that it was a missile? I'm not saying it wasn't but quite possibly not.
Do you not have this information from your relentless searching for balanced sources? And your constant fact checking of Russian propoganda? If not - why not - it's easy to find:
CCTV showing the two missiles arriving. First one hits the shopping centre, second one a car plant:
https://twitter.com/Liveuamap/status/1541536257716764672
Offical announcement from Russian MOD on the attack on the Kremenchuk shoping cente:
they hit "a train with weapons from the West", after which a detonation occurred and a fire engulfed a non-functioning shopping center nearby.
https://twitter.com/Flash43191300/status/1541707083195760640
Later changed to munitions being stored in a nearby machinery facory (that has not manufactured machinery since 1989 - it was a car plant) 'Detonation of the storaged munitions caused a fire in a non-functioning shopping centre next to the facilities of the plant.'
https://twitter.com/RussianEmbassy/status/1541718651593695233
Satellite images show the destroyed shopping centre and car plant - with intact buildings in-between & no damage to the railway
https://twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1541800890658684928
CCTV showing the first impact was the shopping mall - the second was the car plant
https://twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1541801641766260737
? So we see, just like I said. Not sure what your whining is about?
Hitting a car plant where the Russians say NATO weapons were being stored to send East. Makes sense as it's next to a railway, maybe their intell was wrong, maybe not. Or maybe NATO aren't supplying weapons, or maybe they are and are delivering them by helicopters right on the frontline in the East? :facepalm:
Russians also currently say there were 4 hits when I've only seen 2. A bit disorganised in the reporting if there were only 2.
Difficult to see if there is any damage near the railway but probs not.
Last time I looked, cars were machines. Maybe yours is a vegetable these days? What I read is "road machinery plant".
Not sure why you are posting pics of the pilots. Relevant are the comanders who organised the mission. And then I haven't see you posting pics of soldiers shelling people in Donbass. Oh right, you're a corporal in the Billy Blinkers Brigade. "Nothing happening in the Donbass for the last 8 years bar the darn Ruskies stirring trouble and getting their come uppance from the Jolly Yellow Revolution Heros." :facepalm:
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Christ Almighty.... I really am struggling to credit what I am reading.
This is a none debate. This is 1930's Stalinist 'I said it so it is true' propaganda. We all know both sides have done and will do bad things. It's a f**king war. But we also all know who started that war - irrespective of 'who did what to who' beforehand. And, we can all follow the argument put forwards by Wilts. How do you explain, BRR, the lack of damage to the buildings between the destroyed shopping centre and the car plant and no damage to the railway?
But this is like arguing with a potato. It ain't never gonna accept potatoes can end up as chips.
BobG
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Christ Almighty.... I really am struggling to credit what I am reading.
This is a none debate. This is 1930's Stalinist 'I said it so it is true' propaganda. We all know both sides have done and will do bad things. It's a f**king war. But we also all know who started that war - irrespective of 'who did what to who' beforehand. And, we can all follow the argument put forwards by Wilts. How do you explain, BRR, the lack of damage to the buildings between the destroyed shopping centre and the car plant and no damage to the railway?
But this is like arguing with a potato. It ain't never gonna accept potatoes can end up as chips.
BobG
You can keep your greasy chips on your shoulder.
Why are you asking me to justify that lack of damage?
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Turkey agrees to Finland and Sweden joining NATO, over to mad Vlad to play the next card now!
-
All this is starting to look really grim for the world now. Yet, all those world leaders at the G7 the other day, led by those 3 w*nkers, Johnson, Biden, and Macron, thought it hilarious to joke and laugh about Putin's bare chested horse riding caper.
The way that Russia is getting hemmed in by Nato now, is making it more likely that World War 3 and nuclear conflict is the most probable endgame in all this.
Possible Armageddon, and that lot seem to think it's funny.
-
All this is starting to look really grim for the world now. Yet, all those world leaders at the G7 the other day, led by those 3 w*nkers, Johnson, Biden, and Macron, thought it hilarious to joke and laugh about Putin's bare chested horse riding caper.
The way that Russia is getting hemmed in by Nato now, is making it more likely that World War 3 and nuclear conflict is the most probable endgame in all this.
Possible Armageddon, and that lot seem to think it's funny.
Putin has only himself to blame for Sweden and Finland wanting to join NATO, make no mistake if Ukraine would have kept the nukes when the Soviet Union dissolved, Putin would not be anywhere in Ukraine now, he lied when he offered security to Ukraine for giving them up, he lied when he said they had no intentions of invading Ukraine just before he did, the apologists for him can say all they want in his defence, but they are habitual liers, they even jumped into bed with the Nazis in WW2 with the molotov Robbentrp pact!
-
300k NATO troops to be put on high alert, mmmm!
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Ukraine will become the 33rd member. Very important number that.
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All this is starting to look really grim for the world now. Yet, all those world leaders at the G7 the other day, led by those 3 w*nkers, Johnson, Biden, and Macron, thought it hilarious to joke and laugh about Putin's bare chested horse riding caper.
The way that Russia is getting hemmed in by Nato now, is making it more likely that World War 3 and nuclear conflict is the most probable endgame in all this.
Possible Armageddon, and that lot seem to think it's funny.
Putin has only himself to blame for Sweden and Finland wanting to join NATO, make no mistake if Ukraine would have kept the nukes when the Soviet Union dissolved, Putin would not be anywhere in Ukraine now, he lied when he offered security to Ukraine for giving them up, he lied when he said they had no intentions of invading Ukraine just before he did, the apologists for him can say all they want in his defence, but they are habitual liers, they even jumped into bed with the Nazis in WW2 with the molotov Robbentrp pact!
I'm certainly not an apologist for Putin, but I take his cornered rat nuclear threat very seriously indeed, and I'd like to know what the 3 grinning musketeers intend doing about it.
I hope you realise that the first ones to get Sarmat will be us.
-
All this is starting to look really grim for the world now. Yet, all those world leaders at the G7 the other day, led by those 3 w*nkers, Johnson, Biden, and Macron, thought it hilarious to joke and laugh about Putin's bare chested horse riding caper.
The way that Russia is getting hemmed in by Nato now, is making it more likely that World War 3 and nuclear conflict is the most probable endgame in all this.
Possible Armageddon, and that lot seem to think it's funny.
Putin has only himself to blame for Sweden and Finland wanting to join NATO, make no mistake if Ukraine would have kept the nukes when the Soviet Union dissolved, Putin would not be anywhere in Ukraine now, he lied when he offered security to Ukraine for giving them up, he lied when he said they had no intentions of invading Ukraine just before he did, the apologists for him can say all they want in his defence, but they are habitual liers, they even jumped into bed with the Nazis in WW2 with the molotov Robbentrp pact!
And quite a few Ukraines fought for the Nazis, and helped them with murdering Jews, Gypsies, etc etc. Not to mention the current nationalist hero cults of Nazis, and the prevelence of Nazi insignia amongst a large section of Ukraine fighters. Russian propaganda? In that it's pumped up yes, but also v true.
-
All this is starting to look really grim for the world now. Yet, all those world leaders at the G7 the other day, led by those 3 w*nkers, Johnson, Biden, and Macron, thought it hilarious to joke and laugh about Putin's bare chested horse riding caper.
The way that Russia is getting hemmed in by Nato now, is making it more likely that World War 3 and nuclear conflict is the most probable endgame in all this.
Possible Armageddon, and that lot seem to think it's funny.
Putin has only himself to blame for Sweden and Finland wanting to join NATO, make no mistake if Ukraine would have kept the nukes when the Soviet Union dissolved, Putin would not be anywhere in Ukraine now, he lied when he offered security to Ukraine for giving them up, he lied when he said they had no intentions of invading Ukraine just before he did, the apologists for him can say all they want in his defence, but they are habitual liers, they even jumped into bed with the Nazis in WW2 with the molotov Robbentrp pact!
I'm certainly not an apologist for Putin, but I take his cornered rat nuclear threat very seriously indeed, and I'd like to know what the 3 grinning musketeers intend doing about it.
I hope you realise that the first ones to get Sarmat will be us.
The second he launches a Nuke Russia is finished, there will be Nuclear capable subs from the UK and USA somewhere lurking under water ready to flatten Moscow the very second he launches an attack
And I never suggested you where an apologist, but can see that my post might have come across that way
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Meanwhile reports from Russia:
In Bakhmut, Donetsk People's Republic, in a dermatovenerologic dispensary and a clilic, Ukrainian nationalists deployed firing and sniper positions, the approaches to the facility are mined;
In Chernigov, in the regional tuberculosis dispensary, Territorial Defence units deployed their HQs and ordnance depots;
In Seversk, Donetsk People's Republic, in the urban hospital, nationalists deployed firing positions, armoured equipment, large-calibre artillery and MRLS;
Ukrainian nationalist battalions are about to launch missile attacks from residential areas of Krivoy Rog at a hospital in Vysokopolye.
-
All this is starting to look really grim for the world now. Yet, all those world leaders at the G7 the other day, led by those 3 w*nkers, Johnson, Biden, and Macron, thought it hilarious to joke and laugh about Putin's bare chested horse riding caper.
The way that Russia is getting hemmed in by Nato now, is making it more likely that World War 3 and nuclear conflict is the most probable endgame in all this.
Possible Armageddon, and that lot seem to think it's funny.
Putin has only himself to blame for Sweden and Finland wanting to join NATO, make no mistake if Ukraine would have kept the nukes when the Soviet Union dissolved, Putin would not be anywhere in Ukraine now, he lied when he offered security to Ukraine for giving them up, he lied when he said they had no intentions of invading Ukraine just before he did, the apologists for him can say all they want in his defence, but they are habitual liers, they even jumped into bed with the Nazis in WW2 with the molotov Robbentrp pact!
And quite a few Ukraines fought for the Nazis, and helped them with murdering Jews, Gypsies, etc etc. Not to mention the current nationalist hero cults of Nazis, and the prevelence of Nazi insignia amongst a large section of Ukraine fighters. Russian propaganda? In that it's pumped up yes, but also v true.
My point was more to the fact that Russia are habitual liers
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All this is starting to look really grim for the world now. Yet, all those world leaders at the G7 the other day, led by those 3 w*nkers, Johnson, Biden, and Macron, thought it hilarious to joke and laugh about Putin's bare chested horse riding caper.
The way that Russia is getting hemmed in by Nato now, is making it more likely that World War 3 and nuclear conflict is the most probable endgame in all this.
Possible Armageddon, and that lot seem to think it's funny.
Putin has only himself to blame for Sweden and Finland wanting to join NATO, make no mistake if Ukraine would have kept the nukes when the Soviet Union dissolved, Putin would not be anywhere in Ukraine now, he lied when he offered security to Ukraine for giving them up, he lied when he said they had no intentions of invading Ukraine just before he did, the apologists for him can say all they want in his defence, but they are habitual liers, they even jumped into bed with the Nazis in WW2 with the molotov Robbentrp pact!
I'm certainly not an apologist for Putin, but I take his cornered rat nuclear threat very seriously indeed, and I'd like to know what the 3 grinning musketeers intend doing about it.
I hope you realise that the first ones to get Sarmat will be us.
The second he launches a Nuke Russia is finished, there will be Nuclear capable subs from the UK and USA somewhere lurking under water ready to flatten Moscow the very second he launches an attack
And I never suggested you where an apologist, but can see that my post might have come across that way
What a weird angle to suggest. The second anyone launches a nuke we're all finished.
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All this is starting to look really grim for the world now. Yet, all those world leaders at the G7 the other day, led by those 3 w*nkers, Johnson, Biden, and Macron, thought it hilarious to joke and laugh about Putin's bare chested horse riding caper.
The way that Russia is getting hemmed in by Nato now, is making it more likely that World War 3 and nuclear conflict is the most probable endgame in all this.
Possible Armageddon, and that lot seem to think it's funny.
Putin has only himself to blame for Sweden and Finland wanting to join NATO, make no mistake if Ukraine would have kept the nukes when the Soviet Union dissolved, Putin would not be anywhere in Ukraine now, he lied when he offered security to Ukraine for giving them up, he lied when he said they had no intentions of invading Ukraine just before he did, the apologists for him can say all they want in his defence, but they are habitual liers, they even jumped into bed with the Nazis in WW2 with the molotov Robbentrp pact!
And quite a few Ukraines fought for the Nazis, and helped them with murdering Jews, Gypsies, etc etc. Not to mention the current nationalist hero cults of Nazis, and the prevelence of Nazi insignia amongst a large section of Ukraine fighters. Russian propaganda? In that it's pumped up yes, but also v true.
My point was more to the fact that Russia are habitual liers
The same as every major nation on earth then, Ukraine, US, UK up there topping the charts too.
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Turkey agrees to Finland and Sweden joining NATO, over to mad Vlad to play the next card now!
I wonder what Turkey was offered for making that decision?
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Meanwhile reports from Russia:
In Bakhmut, Donetsk People's Republic, in a dermatovenerologic dispensary and a clilic, Ukrainian nationalists deployed firing and sniper positions, the approaches to the facility are mined;
In Chernigov, in the regional tuberculosis dispensary, Territorial Defence units deployed their HQs and ordnance depots;
In Seversk, Donetsk People's Republic, in the urban hospital, nationalists deployed firing positions, armoured equipment, large-calibre artillery and MRLS;
Ukrainian nationalist battalions are about to launch missile attacks from residential areas of Krivoy Rog at a hospital in Vysokopolye.
Ok yes, he's Ukranian but have a listen.
https://youtu.be/g-YKRc_b7CE
We all recall Russia denying the shooting down of MH17.
It's just a catalogue of "Nope, wasn't us. It was them!"
"OK, so it was us. What are you going to do about it!"
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Christ Almighty.... I really am struggling to credit what I am reading.
This is a none debate. This is 1930's Stalinist 'I said it so it is true' propaganda. We all know both sides have done and will do bad things. It's a f**king war. But we also all know who started that war - irrespective of 'who did what to who' beforehand. And, we can all follow the argument put forwards by Wilts. How do you explain, BRR, the lack of damage to the buildings between the destroyed shopping centre and the car plant and no damage to the railway?
But this is like arguing with a potato. It ain't never gonna accept potatoes can end up as chips.
BobG
You can keep your greasy chips on your shoulder.
Why are you asking me to justify that lack of damage?
Because that lack of damage proves the Russian version of events cannot be true. Yet you parrot it without contradiction.
Just like one of the links I gave you leads you to the evidence that the factory hit changed use from a road machinery plant to a car plant in 1989. That you could have found out yourself if you were interested in 'balance' and 'accuracy'.
I posted details of who dropped the missiles because in an earlier post you said you wanted evidence of those missiles being fired.
Now you dont - is it the wrong kind of evidence?
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Meanwhile reports from Russia:
In Bakhmut, Donetsk People's Republic, in a dermatovenerologic dispensary and a clilic, Ukrainian nationalists deployed firing and sniper positions, the approaches to the facility are mined;
In Chernigov, in the regional tuberculosis dispensary, Territorial Defence units deployed their HQs and ordnance depots;
In Seversk, Donetsk People's Republic, in the urban hospital, nationalists deployed firing positions, armoured equipment, large-calibre artillery and MRLS;
Ukrainian nationalist battalions are about to launch missile attacks from residential areas of Krivoy Rog at a hospital in Vysokopolye.
Have you ever heard of false flag attacks?
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Meanwhile reports from Russia:
In Bakhmut, Donetsk People's Republic, in a dermatovenerologic dispensary and a clilic, Ukrainian nationalists deployed firing and sniper positions, the approaches to the facility are mined;
In Chernigov, in the regional tuberculosis dispensary, Territorial Defence units deployed their HQs and ordnance depots;
In Seversk, Donetsk People's Republic, in the urban hospital, nationalists deployed firing positions, armoured equipment, large-calibre artillery and MRLS;
Ukrainian nationalist battalions are about to launch missile attacks from residential areas of Krivoy Rog at a hospital in Vysokopolye.
Have you ever heard of false flag attacks?
I think it depends on who is false flagging
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All this is starting to look really grim for the world now. Yet, all those world leaders at the G7 the other day, led by those 3 w*nkers, Johnson, Biden, and Macron, thought it hilarious to joke and laugh about Putin's bare chested horse riding caper.
The way that Russia is getting hemmed in by Nato now, is making it more likely that World War 3 and nuclear conflict is the most probable endgame in all this.
Possible Armageddon, and that lot seem to think it's funny.
Putin has only himself to blame for Sweden and Finland wanting to join NATO, make no mistake if Ukraine would have kept the nukes when the Soviet Union dissolved, Putin would not be anywhere in Ukraine now, he lied when he offered security to Ukraine for giving them up, he lied when he said they had no intentions of invading Ukraine just before he did, the apologists for him can say all they want in his defence, but they are habitual liers, they even jumped into bed with the Nazis in WW2 with the molotov Robbentrp pact!
I'm certainly not an apologist for Putin, but I take his cornered rat nuclear threat very seriously indeed, and I'd like to know what the 3 grinning musketeers intend doing about it.
I hope you realise that the first ones to get Sarmat will be us.
The second he launches a Nuke Russia is finished, there will be Nuclear capable subs from the UK and USA somewhere lurking under water ready to flatten Moscow the very second he launches an attack
And I never suggested you where an apologist, but can see that my post might have come across that way
The second any nuke is launched, by anyone in this total f**k up, we are all finished. 20 minutes and kiss goodbye to London. Followed by every single strategic site they have pre plotted into their computer firing sequences. Nothing left habitable in the uk. We would literally disappear from the map. And we have nothing to stop it.
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Can we have the email address for your neighbour BRR?
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2 people killed, 6 injured by Russian shelling in Kharkiv Oblast in 1 day.
2 civilians were killed, 1 injured by shelling of Tsyrkyny village northeast of Kharkiv. Five people were injured by shelling in the southeastern part of Kharkiv.
Source: Governor Oleh Syniehubov.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1541890541989814275
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Christ Almighty.... I really am struggling to credit what I am reading.
This is a none debate. This is 1930's Stalinist 'I said it so it is true' propaganda. We all know both sides have done and will do bad things. It's a f**king war. But we also all know who started that war - irrespective of 'who did what to who' beforehand. And, we can all follow the argument put forwards by Wilts. How do you explain, BRR, the lack of damage to the buildings between the destroyed shopping centre and the car plant and no damage to the railway?
But this is like arguing with a potato. It ain't never gonna accept potatoes can end up as chips.
BobG
You can keep your greasy chips on your shoulder.
Why are you asking me to justify that lack of damage?
Because that lack of damage proves the Russian version of events cannot be true. Yet you parrot it without contradiction.
Just like one of the links I gave you leads you to the evidence that the factory hit changed use from a road machinery plant to a car plant in 1989. That you could have found out yourself if you were interested in 'balance' and 'accuracy'.
I posted details of who dropped the missiles because in an earlier post you said you wanted evidence of those missiles being fired.
Now you dont - is it the wrong kind of evidence?
The version where they said that it caught fire? Yep, though I don't believe I posted that, certainly not saying it was the truth. I was waiting for info to come through. And it has. Yes you posted some links.
Pilots - fair enough, but you see my points there.
Parotting - Kettle pot black there, and some.
Car plant, road machinery plant.... think you're lost in irrelevance. There were reports of heavy weapons being stored there. That's the story. If so, why are they storing heavy weapons next to civilians? Duh! But then they have missile factories in Kyiv next to homes, and place their artilerry in hospitals etc etc. That's a story innit.
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Meanwhile reports from Russia:
In Bakhmut, Donetsk People's Republic, in a dermatovenerologic dispensary and a clilic, Ukrainian nationalists deployed firing and sniper positions, the approaches to the facility are mined;
In Chernigov, in the regional tuberculosis dispensary, Territorial Defence units deployed their HQs and ordnance depots;
In Seversk, Donetsk People's Republic, in the urban hospital, nationalists deployed firing positions, armoured equipment, large-calibre artillery and MRLS;
Ukrainian nationalist battalions are about to launch missile attacks from residential areas of Krivoy Rog at a hospital in Vysokopolye.
Have you ever heard of false flag attacks?
I'd always be suspicious of this, not least because it comes from the Russian MoD. I'm just passing on this info. I have seen fairly convincing vids of Russians taking over such buildings where there is a lot of evidence of Ukraines being based there.
We'll see what happens.
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Post the videos and the links BRR so everyone can assess the ''fairly convincing evidence''
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I will go further and say that this is such a serious subject that if you are not willing to supply links to your sources and accompanying evidence do not post it at all BRR.
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I will go further and say that this is such a serious subject that if you are not willing to supply links to your sources and accompanying evidence do not post it at all BRR.
The censor speaks.
I don't have a collection of bookmarks, nor much of a memory for where I saw things, but will send what I see from here. Meanwhile, if you think it is 's that serious, you could look yourself? Given your concern I expect you will. Maybe you can post links.
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I will go further and say that this is such a serious subject that if you are not willing to supply links to your sources and accompanying evidence do not post it at all BRR.
The censor speaks.
I don't have a collection of bookmarks, nor much of a memory for where I saw things, but will send what I see from here. Meanwhile, if you think it is 's that serious, you could look yourself? Given your concern I expect you will. Maybe you can post links.
No, I ask you support what you say is all, and it appears you can't.
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Request for pics/vids. I'll see if I can find vids supporting this, but what do you make of this?
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Looks like a flattened building. It don't tell us bugger all else
BobG
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Your eyes don't see the impact on the rail lines?
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Noted - the lack of response to those pics I posted above from certain folks here. Except for BG who had lost his specs ;)
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I really don't get the point you are making BRR.
Are you saying the attack was a surgical one, deliberately and precisely aimed at cutting the rail line?
If so, why not aim the attack 2-300m up or down the line and so, away from the shopping mall?
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Your eyes don't see the impact on the rail lines?
You cannot say that impacted was on the rail lines, there is no crater around the impact point to suggested it landed on the lines. The damage you are seeing is just as likely to have been caused by the back blast from the explosion in the building. The picture quality is not sufficient to say either way.
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This must be what listening to Lord Hawhaw was like
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Surgical or not, the impact appears not to on the the Mall. If it was you'd see it, and at best there is nothing whatsoever indicating the impact to see in the mall. From the pattern from the blast, impact appears to be in the centre of that circle. If you saw vids of either of the impacts, you know how powerful they were, and how that would show.
There is a vid, produced by Ukraine, showing damage inside the Mall in one of the shops. However, there is nothing there to show blast damage, including glass bottles all still on their shelves, unbroken. Could be this was the only shop that didn't have blast damage. Strange to show the least affected shop.
Does this mean targeting weapons being stored near people is okay? It's war, so within that sickness, I'd say yes. Does it mean Ukraine shouldn't be storing weapons near the public? Well, this is what happens if they do. They know this.
Ive said before, Ukraine is frequently storing and using weapons adjacent to or even within public spaces. Of course they will, they are desperate. And it scores points for getting more NATO support when these places are damaged. Not least because public opinion in those countries is shifted by the narrative, enabling governments to pour billions into Ukraine. That's not from the magic money tree, its from the pockets of ordinary people, and a huge slice of that ends up in the pockets of corporations. And for what? Prolonging a futile war, getting more people killed.
So far, the story has been that Russia targeted civilians. It didn't.
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This must be what listening to Lord Hawhaw was like
You pays your money and takes your choice what propaganda you swallow. Wave that flag.
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Surgical or not, the impact appears not to on the the Mall. If it was you'd see it, and at best there is nothing whatsoever indicating the impact to see in the mall. From the pattern from the blast, impact appears to be in the centre of that circle. If you saw vids of either of the impacts, you know how powerful they were, and how that would show.
There is a vid, produced by Ukraine, showing damage inside the Mall in one of the shops. However, there is nothing there to show blast damage, including glass bottles all still on their shelves, unbroken. Could be this was the only shop that didn't have blast damage. Strange to show the least affected shop.
Does this mean targeting weapons being stored near people is okay? It's war, so within that sickness, I'd say yes. Does it mean Ukraine shouldn't be storing weapons near the public? Well, this is what happens if they do. They know this.
Ive said before, Ukraine is frequently storing and using weapons adjacent to or even within public spaces. Of course they will, they are desperate. And it scores points for getting more NATO support when these places are damaged. Not least because public opinion in those countries is shifted by the narrative, enabling governments to pour billions into Ukraine. That's not from the magic money tree, its from the pockets of ordinary people, and a huge slice of that ends up in the pockets of corporations. And for what? Prolonging a futile war, getting more people killed.
So far, the story has been that Russia targeted civilians. It didn't.
It's a scandal that the British public is struggling to put food on the table, heat their homes and fuel their cars whilst our government is throwing money at these pirates. Maybe people in favour of sanctions against Russia should crowd fund their support and leave the rest of us out of it?
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BRR.
You still haven't dealt with my point.
If the Russian missiles can be so well targeted that they could specifically hit a section of rail track to sever it, why choose to specifically strike a section of the track where the collateral damage would be enormous.
The very best gloss your argument can put on the Russian argument is that they are reckless regarding the likelihood of mass civilian casualties.
Which way do you want it? Are they able to surgically attack but don't give a f**k who gets hurt? Or are they not able to surgically attack and don't give a f**k who gets hurt?
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Bloke who says check facts behind Ukranian claims doesnt check facts behind Russian claims.
The shopping centre & car plant were hit by KH-22 cruise missiles. This is 60 year old technology - its just not possible to have a 'surgical strike' with them. A couple of hundred metres as to where they were aimed is 'accurate'.
The Russians do have more modern and more acurate ones - but they are not using them. They are using these old ones. This bloke thinks it is because they are holding them back for any NATO movement.
https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/06/why-russia-is-using-old-kh-22-aircraft-carrier-killer-missiles-to-hit-ukraine/
Using these missiles to aim in the vicinity of a shopping centre is a war crime.
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Mariupol Theatre attack a clear war crime - Amnesty International Report
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/06/ukraine-deadly-mariupol-theatre-strike-a-clear-war-crime-by-russian-forces-new-investigation/
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Detailed satellite image of the Kremenchuk attack - you can see here quite clearly where the debris on the railway BRR pointed out came from. The thread gives a report and more pictures from the site(s):
https://twitter.com/fredabrahams/status/1542419051284205569
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Looks like a flattened building. It don't tell us bugger all else
BobG
You might want to rewrite that, Bobby G.
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BST, there you go then. That's why, apparently.
Wilts, where exactly on that pic are you saying the missile hit?
And is it not a war crime to be putting weapons near population areas? Or in your Waddington War Game does it say can't shoot if within 500m of a non combatant. Good for those using human shields is that - not a war crime either then.
Meanwhile, in this case we all agree Russia wasn't targeting civilians as reported in all Western media, and by the Billy Blinkers Brigade on here.
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Right in the centre of the shopping centre - hence the spread of damage.
CCTV from the yard through the trees on other side of railway of the moment of impact:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2zKQS9HKWo
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Mariupol Theatre attack a clear war crime - Amnesty International Report
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/06/ukraine-deadly-mariupol-theatre-strike-a-clear-war-crime-by-russian-forces-new-investigation/
Interesting that events where people are deliberately whipped up into aggressive frenzies by politicians and US gov agents don't count as war crimes. Like this https://youtu.be/qyJiUW7bRkQ
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Right in the centre of the shopping centre - hence the spread of damage.
CCTV from the yard through the trees on other side of railway of the moment of impact:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2zKQS9HKWo
No crater there. Nothing that looks like a missile hit.
Seen the vids, and others. V powerful eh! You think a shopping centre wouldn't show more damage than that pic if that missile had hit it?
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BST, there you go then. That's why, apparently.
Wilts, where exactly on that pic are you saying the missile hit?
And is it not a war crime to be putting weapons near population areas? Or in your Waddington War Game does it say can't shoot if within 500m of a non combatant. Good for those using human shields is that - not a war crime either then.
Meanwhile, in this case we all agree Russia wasn't targeting civilians as reported in all Western media, and by the Billy Blinkers Brigade on here.
More bluster and avoiding the point.
I asked you a very specific question.
You replied with like a muck spreader.
Do you want to go back and have another go at answering the specific question?
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BST, there you go then. That's why, apparently.
Wilts, where exactly on that pic are you saying the missile hit?
And is it not a war crime to be putting weapons near population areas? Or in your Waddington War Game does it say can't shoot if within 500m of a non combatant. Good for those using human shields is that - not a war crime either then.
Meanwhile, in this case we all agree Russia wasn't targeting civilians as reported in all Western media, and by the Billy Blinkers Brigade on here.
More bluster and avoiding the point.
I asked you a very specific question.
You replied with like a muck spreader.
Do you want to go back and have another go at answering the specific question?
Not got your brain in gear this eve? As wilts said, older weapons, less accurate.
Be nice if you didn't cherry pick your replies too. Stacks that you ignore.
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In my eyes collateral damage from an air and missile attack is always the fault and blame of the attacker who has caused the situation by choosing a target where this is possible. Even if the damage was technically caused by debris from air defence missiles or targets these defence missiles had hit, the attacker is fully to blame. BTW I am no expert but the pictures of the apartment block I have seen look more like damage from an explosion than being hit by debris.
Compare that with NATO's first ever offensive mission against Bosnian Serb air defences in which the Theatre Air Commander personally vetted all targets on a daily basis to make sure there was no chance of collateral damage.
Source: 'Deliberate Force, an Air Study in Air Campaigning' by Col Robert C Owen (which backs up my personal experience as part of an after action Lessons Learned team)
Putin and his Commanders have at best taken no account whatsoever of civilian casualties on regularly repeated occasions (Theatres, Churches, Schools, Hospitals, Supermarkets.......), and at worst are deliberately targeting them which is a war crime pure and simple.
I meant to get back to this. It was around 500 civilians killed by NATO air strikes in Serbia?
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Ok. Great. We've got you down to accepting inaccurate weapons.
So why on earth were you pointing out that one of the weapons appears to have hit somewhere around a railway line and the end of the shopping mall? What was your point.
(PS. I stopped answering your questions when you "meh"ed at the obliteration of Mariupol and called it one of those things that happen in war. I'll confine myself to pointing out the gross inconsistencies in your take.)
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In my eyes collateral damage from an air and missile attack is always the fault and blame of the attacker who has caused the situation by choosing a target where this is possible. Even if the damage was technically caused by debris from air defence missiles or targets these defence missiles had hit, the attacker is fully to blame. BTW I am no expert but the pictures of the apartment block I have seen look more like damage from an explosion than being hit by debris.
Compare that with NATO's first ever offensive mission against Bosnian Serb air defences in which the Theatre Air Commander personally vetted all targets on a daily basis to make sure there was no chance of collateral damage.
Source: 'Deliberate Force, an Air Study in Air Campaigning' by Col Robert C Owen (which backs up my personal experience as part of an after action Lessons Learned team)
Putin and his Commanders have at best taken no account whatsoever of civilian casualties on regularly repeated occasions (Theatres, Churches, Schools, Hospitals, Supermarkets.......), and at worst are deliberately targeting them which is a war crime pure and simple.
I meant to get back to this. It was around 500 civilians killed by NATO air strikes in Serbia?
If so, that would be 1/16th the number that Mladic's Serb-backed butchers massacred in a couple of days in Srebrenica. If the NATO action did anything to prevent a repeat, it was justified.
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In my eyes collateral damage from an air and missile attack is always the fault and blame of the attacker who has caused the situation by choosing a target where this is possible. Even if the damage was technically caused by debris from air defence missiles or targets these defence missiles had hit, the attacker is fully to blame. BTW I am no expert but the pictures of the apartment block I have seen look more like damage from an explosion than being hit by debris.
Compare that with NATO's first ever offensive mission against Bosnian Serb air defences in which the Theatre Air Commander personally vetted all targets on a daily basis to make sure there was no chance of collateral damage.
Source: 'Deliberate Force, an Air Study in Air Campaigning' by Col Robert C Owen (which backs up my personal experience as part of an after action Lessons Learned team)
Putin and his Commanders have at best taken no account whatsoever of civilian casualties on regularly repeated occasions (Theatres, Churches, Schools, Hospitals, Supermarkets.......), and at worst are deliberately targeting them which is a war crime pure and simple.
I meant to get back to this. It was around 500 civilians killed by NATO air strikes in Serbia?
If so, that would be 1/16th the number that Mladic's Serb-backed butchers massacred in a couple of days in Srebrenica. If the NATO action did anything to prevent a repeat, it was justified.
BRR I think you are confusing Operation Deliberate Force in Bosnia in 1995 with Operation Allied Force in 1999 in Serbia. The latter I was not involved in and don't know the details, the former was as I described. The latter however was certainly not without problems.
Allied Force in 1999 (from wiki):
NATO's intervention was prompted by Yugoslavia's bloodshed and ethnic cleansing of Albanians, which drove the Albanians into neighbouring countries and had the potential to destabilize the region. Yugoslavia's actions had already provoked condemnation by international organisations and agencies such as the UN, NATO, and various INGOs.[31][32] Yugoslavia's refusal to sign the Rambouillet Accords was initially offered as justification for NATO's use of force.[33] NATO countries attempted to gain authorisation from the UN Security Council for military action, but were opposed by China and Russia, who indicated that they would veto such a measure. As a result, NATO launched its campaign without the UN's approval, stating that it was a humanitarian intervention. The UN Charter prohibits the use of force except in the case of a decision by the Security Council under Chapter VII, or self-defence against an armed attack – neither of which were present in this case.[34]
By the end of the war, the Yugoslavs had killed 1,500[35] to 2,131 combatants,[36] while choosing to heavily target Kosovar Albanian civilians, with 8,676 killed or missing[36] and some 848,000 expelled from Kosovo.[37] The NATO bombing killed about 1,000 members of the Yugoslav security forces in addition to between 489 and 528 civilians.
A UN Mandate is most definitely preferred (as was the case in 1995), but the Russian & Chinese veto stopped that. In my eyes it was a flawed operation but looking at the numbers of civilians killed or displaced by the Serbians it could at least be said that many more lives were saved. That is absolutely not the case in Ukraine at the moment.
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In my eyes collateral damage from an air and missile attack is always the fault and blame of the attacker who has caused the situation by choosing a target where this is possible. Even if the damage was technically caused by debris from air defence missiles or targets these defence missiles had hit, the attacker is fully to blame. BTW I am no expert but the pictures of the apartment block I have seen look more like damage from an explosion than being hit by debris.
Compare that with NATO's first ever offensive mission against Bosnian Serb air defences in which the Theatre Air Commander personally vetted all targets on a daily basis to make sure there was no chance of collateral damage.
Source: 'Deliberate Force, an Air Study in Air Campaigning' by Col Robert C Owen (which backs up my personal experience as part of an after action Lessons Learned team)
Putin and his Commanders have at best taken no account whatsoever of civilian casualties on regularly repeated occasions (Theatres, Churches, Schools, Hospitals, Supermarkets.......), and at worst are deliberately targeting them which is a war crime pure and simple.
I meant to get back to this. It was around 500 civilians killed by NATO air strikes in Serbia?
If so, that would be 1/16th the number that Mladic's Serb-backed butchers massacred in a couple of days in Srebrenica. If the NATO action did anything to prevent a repeat, it was justified.
RUBBISH. WTF was Serbia any business of NATO? NATO is clearly a tool in the west and international big business to shape the world in their desired shape. SCUM.
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In my eyes collateral damage from an air and missile attack is always the fault and blame of the attacker who has caused the situation by choosing a target where this is possible. Even if the damage was technically caused by debris from air defence missiles or targets these defence missiles had hit, the attacker is fully to blame. BTW I am no expert but the pictures of the apartment block I have seen look more like damage from an explosion than being hit by debris.
Compare that with NATO's first ever offensive mission against Bosnian Serb air defences in which the Theatre Air Commander personally vetted all targets on a daily basis to make sure there was no chance of collateral damage.
Source: 'Deliberate Force, an Air Study in Air Campaigning' by Col Robert C Owen (which backs up my personal experience as part of an after action Lessons Learned team)
Putin and his Commanders have at best taken no account whatsoever of civilian casualties on regularly repeated occasions (Theatres, Churches, Schools, Hospitals, Supermarkets.......), and at worst are deliberately targeting them which is a war crime pure and simple.
I meant to get back to this. It was around 500 civilians killed by NATO air strikes in Serbia?
If so, that would be 1/16th the number that Mladic's Serb-backed butchers massacred in a couple of days in Srebrenica. If the NATO action did anything to prevent a repeat, it was justified.
RUBBISH. WTF was Serbia any business of NATO? NATO is clearly a tool in the west and international big business to shape the world in their desired shape. SCUM.
If we’re attacked by a hostile nation you’ll be screaming for NATO
Your avatar is offensive by the way, it reflects the fascist you appear to be!
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I've said it time after time. AL would have supported Hitler in 1937.
Can a moderator please do something about this person's avatar? It is shameful us be seen to be accepting and condoning a fascist.
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I've said it time after time. AL would have supported Hitler in 1937.
Can a moderator please do something about this person's avatar? It is shameful us be seen to be accepting and condoning a fascist.
Billy trying to force his Blinkers on everyone. I wonder what kind of politics or world that would lead to?
And what is your opinion on the use of Nazi symbols, phrases and references?
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I've said it time after time. AL would have supported Hitler in 1937.
Can a moderator please do something about this person's avatar? It is shameful us be seen to be accepting and condoning a fascist.
I don’t agree with much AL says but he’s entitled to his opinions. Are you into censorship now whilst accusing others of been facist?
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Would you agree with AL being allowed to have a dead Ukranian child as his avatar?
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Would you agree with AL being allowed to have a dead Ukranian child as his avatar?
I’d find it distasteful but within his rights
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One raped by a Russian conscript?
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I refer you to my comment above.
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I've said it time after time. AL would have supported Hitler in 1937.
Can a moderator please do something about this person's avatar? It is shameful us be seen to be accepting and condoning a fascist.
This whole situation is a creation of the USA, NATO, EU et al by the engineering of the overthrow of the legitimate government and the ensuing attacks on pro Russian eastern Ukraine. If we're talking about fascists i assume you mean the Azov regiment?
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/3/1/who-are-the-azov-regiment
We are all being lied to by the western media on an industrial scale about the causes of this fighting and what is really happening. Unfortunately most people do not question this narrative and believe the lies they are being fed.
Both sides will be going over the top at times. It's not a hollywood film portraying good v bad. It's not that simple. Open your mind and your eyes.
https://www.opindia.com/2022/04/videos-of-neo-nazi-ukrainian-forces-killing-russian-prisoners-of-war-go-viral/
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But if you have a mangy dog you don't kill the owners and burn the house down.
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Would you agree with AL being allowed to have a dead Ukranian child as his avatar?
But he hasn’t done that has he.
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To the fascist supporters in here, and their apologists.
This is how Russia is waging it's war. A 1000kg warhead on a notoriously inaccurate missile, lobbed at a town 200 miles from the front line, destroying a shopping mall and killing 18 civillians.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rocket_strike_on_a_shopping_center_in_Kremenchuk.webm
Just another day in Putin's imperialistic war.
By the way BRR. After you tied yourself up in knots suggesting it might be a false flag, Russia has now admitted it was its own attack. They are claiming that they used a missile with shit accuracy, in a precision attack on a warehouse holding "western munitions" and that it was the unfortunate detonation of those munitions that destroyed an unused shopping mall.
Funny that. Cos you went to great lengths to show that the missile struck an area between a railway line and the edge of the shopping mall. Where there were no warehouses before the strike.
Are you comfortable acting as a stooge for a fascist butcher?
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To the fascist supporters in here, and their apologists.
This is how Russia is waging it's war. A 1000kg warhead on a notoriously inaccurate missile, lobbed at a town 200 miles from the front line, destroying a shopping mall and killing 18 civillians.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rocket_strike_on_a_shopping_center_in_Kremenchuk.webm
Just another day in Putin's imperialistic war.
By the way BRR. After you tied yourself up in knots suggesting it might be a false flag, Russia has now admitted it was its own attack. They are claiming that they used a missile with shit accuracy, in a precision attack on a warehouse holding "western munitions" and that it was the unfortunate detonation of those munitions that destroyed an unused shopping mall.
Funny that. Cos you went to great lengths to show that the missile struck an area between a railway line and the edge of the shopping mall. Where there were no warehouses before the strike.
Are you comfortable acting as a stooge for a fascist butcher?
You seem happy to support a party which took the UK into an illegal war to suck up to our US masters.
War is nasty, by it's very nature the innocent suffer. Both sides tell lies, fact. Don't believe everything on the MSM as true. Why do we only here how many losses the Russians suffer on the news. The west have dragged the incident on by supplying weapons, if not for this the region would now be secure.
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Hello our visiting fascist.
I left the Labour party in protest at Iraq, d**khead.
And in any case, nothing the mitary did in Iraq comes close to the things that Putin has done in Grozny, or Aleppo or the Donbas that you've slavered over.
Support this monster if that's who you are. Just don't ever try to convince anyone you are on the right side. You are a moral black hole.
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To the fascist supporters in here, and their apologists.
This is how Russia is waging it's war. A 1000kg warhead on a notoriously inaccurate missile, lobbed at a town 200 miles from the front line, destroying a shopping mall and killing 18 civillians.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rocket_strike_on_a_shopping_center_in_Kremenchuk.webm
Just another day in Putin's imperialistic war.
By the way BRR. After you tied yourself up in knots suggesting it might be a false flag, Russia has now admitted it was its own attack. They are claiming that they used a missile with shit accuracy, in a precision attack on a warehouse holding "western munitions" and that it was the unfortunate detonation of those munitions that destroyed an unused shopping mall.
Funny that. Cos you went to great lengths to show that the missile struck an area between a railway line and the edge of the shopping mall. Where there were no warehouses before the strike.
Are you comfortable acting as a stooge for a fascist butcher?
I was suggesting possibilities whilst others leapt on the deliberate targeting of civilians line, including you. That behaviour is being a lap dog to lies and propaganda. I'm not saying Russia is blameless in this war, not at all, but I'm not sucking up the imperialist war mongering propaganda as you and others here are. I recognise your right to wave a flag, you and so many others.
The missile did not appear to strike the shopping mall. Ukraine probably was storing weapons next to it. You think that is not shameful? As you also don't think Ukraine using human shields, basing itself in or adjacent to civilians including hospitals. There's your values.
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In my eyes collateral damage from an air and missile attack is always the fault and blame of the attacker who has caused the situation by choosing a target where this is possible. Even if the damage was technically caused by debris from air defence missiles or targets these defence missiles had hit, the attacker is fully to blame. BTW I am no expert but the pictures of the apartment block I have seen look more like damage from an explosion than being hit by debris.
Compare that with NATO's first ever offensive mission against Bosnian Serb air defences in which the Theatre Air Commander personally vetted all targets on a daily basis to make sure there was no chance of collateral damage.
Source: 'Deliberate Force, an Air Study in Air Campaigning' by Col Robert C Owen (which backs up my personal experience as part of an after action Lessons Learned team)
Putin and his Commanders have at best taken no account whatsoever of civilian casualties on regularly repeated occasions (Theatres, Churches, Schools, Hospitals, Supermarkets.......), and at worst are deliberately targeting them which is a war crime pure and simple.
I meant to get back to this. It was around 500 civilians killed by NATO air strikes in Serbia?
If so, that would be 1/16th the number that Mladic's Serb-backed butchers massacred in a couple of days in Srebrenica. If the NATO action did anything to prevent a repeat, it was justified.
RUBBISH. WTF was Serbia any business of NATO? NATO is clearly a tool in the west and international big business to shape the world in their desired shape. SCUM.
Axholme, I am sure you are completely aware that I find your post offensive and would simply like to ask specifically who within NATO are you calling scum. Is it:
• The politicians who make all the decisions to either accept a NATO new member, launch any NATO operation, define new strategic concepts etc
• The current military staff serving under a current rotation at a NATO establishment or Headquarters who direct an operation authorized by the politicians according to their guidance
• The permanent staff (many civilians, international civil servants if you like)
• All of the above
If the first then you are calling scum every political leader of each NATO nation including the US and the UK, but also Norway, Denmark, Greece, France, Canada, Germany, Poland just to name a very few. The operation referred to in my post was in 1995 when John Major was PM, was authorised by a United Nations Security Council Resolution (are you calling them scum as well). The operation had next to no collateral damage, ended the war in Bosnia, lead to peace and Mladic and Karadzic being found guilty of war crimes (remember Srebenica?). The operation in 1999 (which I was not referring to originally) was launched when Tony Blair was PM, did cause ca 500 deaths by collateral damage which is indeed bad, but can claim to have saved many more lives than that.
If your answer is the second then these are people who followed strict guidelines.
If your answer is 3 or 4 then I am personally being attacked. I think it likely you know very little indeed about my work, but in my 35 years civilian service I always questioned my role and the role of NATO. Throughout I was always convinced NATO was trying to establish and protect peace. I am proud to have done a tiny amount and am honoured to have met some wonderful people who truly have made a difference.
The two operations above are the only offensive ones ever undertaken by NATO – NATO refused to enter operations in Iraq, and was involved as a peace-keeping force in Afghanistan (the initial ISAF force was an ad-hoc coalition, not NATO). In Libya NATO was responsible for the no-fly zone, but it was the US who unilaterally launched the air strikes. NATO was asked to take over so that strikes could be vetoed (from wiki):
24 March 2011: In telephone negotiations, French foreign minister Alain Juppé agreed to let NATO take over all military operations on 29 March at the latest, allowing Turkey to veto strikes on Gaddafi ground forces from that point forward.[76] Later reports stated that NATO would take over enforcement of the no-fly zone and the arms embargo, but discussions were still under way about whether NATO would take over the protection of civilians mission. Turkey reportedly wanted the power to veto airstrikes, while France wanted to prevent Turkey from having such a veto.[77][78]
This is one example of the fact of all NATO nations having to agree an operation or allow accession to a new member (like Sweden & Finland today) means it is a difficult organization for any one nation (particularly the US) to high-jack. Indeed NATO has on occasions refused some aggressive proposals (e.g first Gulf War). Other operations seem to be quickly forgotten such as Humanitarian Relief to Pakistan after an earthquake.
With regards to NATO expansion, not one single nation has been asked to join NATO, it is by request and every single nation concerned has positively wanted this. In my time (I retired more than a decade ago) expansion was never an objective of NATO.
That is the reality I experienced from the inside for 35 years and you now seem to be calling me and my colleagues scum.
None of this is remotely comparable with the brutal actions of Russia in Grozny, Aleppo, Mariupol, and as it looks like many more cities to come.
I hope you read this sufficiently carefully and can decide that your comment may have been founded on insufficient information and knowledge.
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To the fascist supporters in here, and their apologists.
This is how Russia is waging it's war. A 1000kg warhead on a notoriously inaccurate missile, lobbed at a town 200 miles from the front line, destroying a shopping mall and killing 18 civillians.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rocket_strike_on_a_shopping_center_in_Kremenchuk.webm
Just another day in Putin's imperialistic war.
By the way BRR. After you tied yourself up in knots suggesting it might be a false flag, Russia has now admitted it was its own attack. They are claiming that they used a missile with shit accuracy, in a precision attack on a warehouse holding &quot;western munitions&quot; and that it was the unfortunate detonation of those munitions that destroyed an unused shopping mall.
Funny that. Cos you went to great lengths to show that the missile struck an area between a railway line and the edge of the shopping mall. Where there were no warehouses before the strike.
Are you comfortable acting as a stooge for a fascist butcher?
I was suggesting possibilities whilst others leapt on the deliberate targeting of civilians line, including you. That behaviour is being a lap dog to lies and propaganda. I'm not saying Russia is blameless in this war, not at all, but I'm not sucking up the imperialist war mongering propaganda as you and others here are. I recognise your right to wave a flag, you and so many others.
The missile did not appear to strike the shopping mall. Ukraine probably was storing weapons next to it. You think that is not shameful? As you also don't think Ukraine using human shields, basing itself in or adjacent to civilians including hospitals. There's your values.
1) I did not say Russia was deliberately targeting civilians. They don't have the capability with these weapons to deliberately target ANYTHING. My point was that they are recklessly terrorising civilian areas with poorly guided munitions. I'm not saying they are trying to kill civilians with these attacks. I'm saying they don't give a damn.
2) "Ukraine probably was storing weapons next to it (the shopping mall)." How in the name of God can you possibly justify that comment and insist you are not a stooge for Russian propaganda? You have absolutely zero evidence that anyhting was being stored in that vicinity. You yourself posted aerial photographs showing that there was nothing within the vicinity of the impact crater other than a railway line and the shopping centre itself. This comment is a frankly disgusting effort to defend the indefensible. You are inventing an alternative truth world to justify what you want to be true.
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1) I did not say Russia was deliberately targeting civilians. They don't have the capability with these weapons to deliberately target ANYTHING. My point was that they are recklessly terrorising civilian areas with poorly guided munitions. I'm not saying they are trying to kill civilians with these attacks. I'm saying they don't give a damn.
2) "Ukraine probably was storing weapons next to it (the shopping mall)." How in the name of God can you possibly justify that comment and insist you are not a stooge for Russian propaganda? You have absolutely zero evidence that anyhting was being stored in that vicinity. You yourself posted aerial photographs showing that there was nothing within the vicinity of the impact crater other than a railway line and the shopping centre itself. This comment is a frankly disgusting effort to defend the indefensible. You are inventing an alternative truth world to justify what you want to be true.
1) Good to hear that clarified. We know they are using some older less accurate missiles. I think they should only be used for less population sensitive targets. They do have more accurate missiles. Do they care? Arguable, but then if they truly didn't care at all, there would be far more damage to civillians, obviously so.
2) You're right, I have no evidence, though you know munitions are stored around Ukraine. You know heavy weapons, donated by NATO countries, are being transported and stored. From a couple of explosions I've seen, eg in Khakov, there were munitions stored near population centres. Being logical, or you may say cynical, Ukraine will store these weapons in places out of sight where possible. That will more easily be in densely populated areas or in industrial areas. They are also making every attempt possible to gain more sympathy from the west, so damage to population will be a positive there. Indeed, the west itself wishes to give more military support though is restrained by electorates that are becoming less supportive. Reports of cililians being killed is the number one way of slowing down this war fatigue.
I think you are confused about what I was posting that picture for. My point was it was not a hit on the shops as was being said in the media and on here. But yes it was very close and so the explosion will have damaged the shops. Without seeing that in video I'm not sure anyone will every be able to conclude how it happened with the fog of propaganda on #both sides.
Your final point is laughable given that you are doing exactly that.
And now we have a new civilian incident. Again "missile hit civilian building" screams the BBC etc. Let's wait and see before wasting energy prematurely. Though I agree with you, it's a crime every time this happens. I don't buy "collateral damage". But unlike you, I see this just as bad when the Ukrainians do it as when the Russians do it.
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Hello our visiting fascist.
I left the Labour party in protest at Iraq, d**khead.
And in any case, nothing the mitary did in Iraq comes close to the things that Putin has done in Grozny, or Aleppo or the Donbas that you've slavered over.
Support this monster if that's who you are. Just don't ever try to convince anyone you are on the right side. You are a moral black hole.
BST. I respect your views on here. Genuinely.
However, having served in Iraq, I can assure you Putin would have to go some way to usurp what the allied forces metered out in that part of the world.
Utter scorched earth policy. Superior firepower on a scale you have to see to believe. Every single square kilometre where Iraqi troops were seen wiped off the map. Precision strikes that would give Putin nightmares. Carpet bombing that would make Patrushev wet his bed at night. The likes of which I have never seen before and perhaps will never see again, thankfully.
I’m glad Putin does not have this sort of military capability as Ukraine would be a very very different place than it is right now. And I’m not belittling the death and destruction that is taking place currently because it’s awful. I just have to offer some experienced balance to this comment about Iraq. I am thankful, for the sakes of the people of Ukraine that Russian armies are no where near as technologically advanced or as strategically savvy as the likes of ours or the US.
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NR, good to hear information from someone who actually knows what happened in Iraq.
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NR.
Thanks for your experience. And I can't imagine what you experienced. Were you stationed at Basrah?
For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not criticising attacks on genuine military targets. I think the war that Putin has unleashed is an abomination, but once war is underway, attacks by military forces on each other are inevitable.
My much bigger issue is the deliberate or indiscriminate use of force on civillians. Putin's forces have raped and murdered civilians behind the front line around Kiev. They knowingly targeted the Mariupol theatre, killing 600 sheltering civilians. They are indiscriminately lobbing crude, badly guided missiles into civilian areas hundreds of miles from the front.
God knows I'm not saying Allied forces were blameless in Iraq. And I was against the war on principle from the start. But are you really saying that you personally saw deliberate or reckless targeting of civilians on the scale that we are seeing in Ukraine?
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I've said it time after time. AL would have supported Hitler in 1937.
Can a moderator please do something about this person's avatar? It is shameful us be seen to be accepting and condoning a fascist.
I also disagree with this and think AL should be able to choose whatever avatar he likes (within publi decency laws).
In fact I am glad he chose this one as it shows us exactly who he is and which political ideology he is aligned too.
Its the people who have exactly the same views as him, write the same Kremlin propoganda, and then claim to be neutral that frustrate me. At least AL is honest in his support.
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NR.
Thanks for your experience. And I can't imagine what you experienced. Were you stationed at Basrah?
For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not criticising attacks on genuine military targets. I think the war that Putin has unleashed is an abomination, but once war is underway, attacks by military forces on each other are inevitable.
My much bigger issue is the deliberate or indiscriminate use of force on civillians. Putin's forces have raped and murdered civilians behind the front line around Kiev. They knowingly targeted the Mariupol theatre, killing 600 sheltering civilians. They are indiscriminately lobbing crude, badly guided missiles into civilian areas hundreds of miles from the front.
God knows I'm not saying Allied forces were blameless in Iraq. And I was against the war on principle from the start. But are you really saying that you personally saw deliberate or reckless targeting of civilians on the scale that we are seeing in Ukraine?
Look, I agree putting civilians in danger is a bad thing. You ignore all the ways Ukraine does this. And then above you are using rhetoric again - ie exaggerating incidents and generalising to trigger emotions and smudge the facts with the aim of pushing one side of the story.
"Deliberate or reckless". Can you point to many examples of deliberate? Do you even know the full details behind the Mariupol Theatre incident?
"Putin's forces have raped and murdered civilians " there are questions around this. I expect it has happened to some extent. Again, you mention nothing of what Ukraines have done.
Yes, some of those missiles being used are not as accurate as others. "indisciminantly"? Mostly well targetted, and as I have said many times, if Ukraine is housing arms and weaponry in amongst civilians, it is surely responsible too.
As far as I can see, Russians are not using human shields, at least not nearly to the same extent as Ukraine. There is no excuse for that, not from either side.
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I also disagree with this and think AL should be able to choose whatever avatar he likes (within publi decency laws).
In fact I am glad he chose this one as it shows us exactly who he is and which political ideology he is aligned too.
Its the people who have exactly the same views as him, write the same Kremlin propoganda, and then claim to be neutral that frustrate me. At least AL is honest in his support.
How come your avatar isn't half stars and stripes and half yellow and blue? :scarf: :bscarf:
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If all this was happening in the middle of an ocean or some mythical neutral territory, two foes deciding to fight it out, you may have a point with some of your argument BRR, but it's clearly not is it.
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Bristol Red Rover, can i just ask, will you still be posting this partisan support for The deranged Putin if and when he decides he needs to use tactual nuke's ?
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I also disagree with this and think AL should be able to choose whatever avatar he likes (within publi decency laws).
In fact I am glad he chose this one as it shows us exactly who he is and which political ideology he is aligned too.
Its the people who have exactly the same views as him, write the same Kremlin propoganda, and then claim to be neutral that frustrate me. At least AL is honest in his support.
How come your avatar isn't half stars and stripes and half yellow and blue? :scarf: :bscarf:
If I thought it would do any good then I would change it. Half international brigade/half yellow & blue sounds good.
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I also disagree with this and think AL should be able to choose whatever avatar he likes (within publi decency laws).
In fact I am glad he chose this one as it shows us exactly who he is and which political ideology he is aligned too.
Its the people who have exactly the same views as him, write the same Kremlin propoganda, and then claim to be neutral that frustrate me. At least AL is honest in his support.
How come your avatar isn't half stars and stripes and half yellow and blue? :scarf: :bscarf:
If I thought it would do any good then I would change it. Half international brigade/half yellow & blue sounds good.
Go for it wilts.
It would be unique.
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BRR.
1) If you have credible evidence of Ukrainian soldiers raping and killing Russian civilians, post it instead of doing what you usually do - your Trump-esque thing of "A lot of people are saying both sides are doing it." For the record, I have seen evidence of Ukranian troops killing captured Russian prisoners. I did and do condemn that unreservedly. It's a war crime.
2) Amnesty International have today accused Russia of deliberately targeting the Mariupol theatre. That targeting was possible because they had air superiority. The theatre was hit with two separate 500kg air drop bombs, despite the sheltering civilians having written (I'm Russian) "CHILDREN" outside in huge letters precisely to indicate that it should not be a target. If you have evidence that contradicts the Amnesty report, post it. And "evidence" doesn't mean "someone on Telegram said maybe..."
3) In areas where Russia does not have air superiority, they have routinely attacked with unguided or poorly guided rockets and missiles. Doing that in densely populated areas is a war crime.
4) Don't lecture me about the meaning of the word "indiscriminate" in this context without doing your homework.
This from the Human Rights Watch body, about the Geneva Convention's definition of the word.
"Under international humanitarian law, attacks that are not, or as a result of the method of attack cannot, be aimed at military targets, are considered "indiscriminate." They are prohibited under Protocol I and, under the same treaty, constitute war crimes."
By no means imaginable can a KH22 missile be orecisely aimed at a specific target in an urban area. Either in principle (because the 50 year old guidance technology was intended to get the missile to the general vicinity of a big target while carrying a thermonuclear warhead) or in practice, as we have seen this week. Launching that at a civilian area (even if, as you do, you believe the Russian propaganda that the intended target was military) and then killing civilians IS a war crime. It is the very definition of an indiscriminate attack under the Geneva Convention.
5) If you know of evidence that there are military targets being hidden in civilian areas, post it. If you don't, have some self respect and stop playing the Useful Idiot on this topic.
6) If you have evidence of Russian attacks deep into Ukraine being "mostly well targeted", post it. If not, have some self respect and stop playing the Useful Idiot.
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I have pretty well withdrawn from this thread. I find myself dumbfounded by the sheer illogocality, willfull blindness, claptrap uttering, evidence lacking filth and wild generalisartions of certain right wingers on this thread. Yes Axholme. Amongst others, that's you. Liberty has its limits - which is where I disagree with Wilts. Yes Axholme has shown the truly awful nature of his personality. But the poison he utters is on a par with preaching terrorism - which this country has banned. Go much further Axholme and I will report you to the responsible people. I do know them by the way,
BobG
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NR.
Thanks for your experience. And I can't imagine what you experienced. Were you stationed at Basrah?
For the avoidance of doubt, I'm not criticising attacks on genuine military targets. I think the war that Putin has unleashed is an abomination, but once war is underway, attacks by military forces on each other are inevitable.
My much bigger issue is the deliberate or indiscriminate use of force on civillians. Putin's forces have raped and murdered civilians behind the front line around Kiev. They knowingly targeted the Mariupol theatre, killing 600 sheltering civilians. They are indiscriminately lobbing crude, badly guided missiles into civilian areas hundreds of miles from the front.
God knows I'm not saying Allied forces were blameless in Iraq. And I was against the war on principle from the start. But are you really saying that you personally saw deliberate or reckless targeting of civilians on the scale that we are seeing in Ukraine?
The recklessness of russias bombing is appalling. And no, this was not the case in Iraq. Civilians were killed though. In huge numbers. Tens of thousands. We still don’t know how many. The bombing was very deliberate. Widespread. Unforgiving levels of firepower. Dropping everything we had on every piece of southern Iraq.
As we advanced through Iraq, you could see everywhere that not a single living person survived anywhere where Iraqi troops have stood and attempted to fight back. Apocalyptic scenes. Unlike these towns and cities in Ukraine where survivors are still going about their daily business to an extent. Don’t forget, allied bombing of southern Iraq took place for five weeks prior to us ground troops crossing the breach line in early feb. By the time we got to Basrah, it was all over. In fact it was all over way before then. The Iraqis had no chance.
I’m pretty confident Russia and it’s forces would be flattened under a similar NATO response. But let’s not go there shall we. Please.
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I have pretty well withdrawn from this thread. I find myself dumbfounded by the sheer illogocality, willfull blindness, claptrap uttering, evidence lacking filth and wild generalisartions of certain right wingers on this thread. Yes Axholme. Amongst others, that's you. Liberty has its limits - which is where I disagree with Wilts. Yes Axholme has shown the truly awful nature of his personality. But the poison he utters is on a par with preaching terrorism - which this country has banned. Go much further Axholme and I will report you to the responsible people. I do know them by the way,
BobG
Bobby G. That is a very serious accusation. If you think someone is preaching terrorism, you have a duty to report it, rather than procrastinating and telling everyone you ‘know people’.
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Belton, I bet AL won’t sleep at night, worrying about the knock o; the door late one night.
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BST, are you denying Ukraine has shelled civilian areas? Are you confident that the burning of civilians in Odessa has nothing to do with Ukraine pro western politicians, US agents (I'm using agents specifically meaning those officials who have been engaging in Ukraine and encouraging the pro NATO and pro EU demos). Are you confident that Ukraine troops haven't been firing mnes into civilian areas? Are you confident that Ukraine doesn't position troops and heavy weaponry adjacent to civilian buildings including hospitals? I could add much more.
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BRR the Ukrainians should surely be able to stockpile munitions and weapons wherever they want on their own territory.
They are defending their homeland. Any Russian military personnel dying in the Ukraine are invaders and at the very least trespassing on foreign territory.
Every country should have the right to defend itself surely?
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BRR the Ukrainians should surely be able to stockpile munitions and weapons wherever they want on their own territory.
They are defending their homeland. Any Russian military personnel dying in the Ukraine are invaders and at the very least trespassing on foreign territory.
Every country should have the right to defend itself surely?
If they're putting it next to civilians, that is a crime. It becomes a target, obviously.
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BRR.
1) .... For the record, I have seen evidence of Ukranian troops killing captured Russian prisoners. I did and do condemn that unreservedly. It's a war crime.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIfMK0xBrJQ
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2) Amnesty International have today accused Russia of deliberately targeting the Mariupol theatre. That targeting was possible because they had air superiority. The theatre was hit with two separate 500kg air drop bombs, despite the sheltering civilians having written (I'm Russian) "CHILDREN" outside in huge letters precisely to indicate that it should not be a target. If you have evidence that contradicts the Amnesty report, post it. And "evidence" doesn't mean "someone on Telegram said maybe..."
3) In areas where Russia does not have air superiority, they have routinely attacked with unguided or poorly guided rockets and missiles. Doing that in densely populated areas is a war crime.
4).....This from the Human Rights Watch body, about the Geneva Convention's definition of the word.
"Under international humanitarian law, attacks that are not, or as a result of the method of attack cannot, be aimed at military targets, are considered "indiscriminate." They are prohibited under Protocol I and, under the same treaty, constitute war crimes."
By no means imaginable can a KH22 missile be orecisely aimed at a specific target in an urban area. Either in principle (because the 50 year old guidance technology was intended to get the missile to the general vicinity of a big target while carrying a thermonuclear warhead) or in practice, as we have seen this week. Launching that at a civilian area (even if, as you do, you believe the Russian propaganda that the intended target was military) and then killing civilians IS a war crime. It is the very definition of an indiscriminate attack under the Geneva Convention.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOfWXBSKGTc
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BRR.
1) If you have credible evidence of Ukrainian soldiers raping and killing Russian civilians, post it instead of doing what you usually do - your Trump-esque thing of "A lot of people are saying both sides are doing it.".....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xat6JWKp1kw
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5) If you know of evidence that there are military targets being hidden in civilian areas, post it. If you don't, have some self respect and stop playing the Useful Idiot on this topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5rhidUyObE
Actually human shields, which is worse.
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BRR the Ukrainians should surely be able to stockpile munitions and weapons wherever they want on their own territory.
They are defending their homeland. Any Russian military personnel dying in the Ukraine are invaders and at the very least trespassing on foreign territory.
Every country should have the right to defend itself surely?
If they're putting it next to civilians, that is a crime. It becomes a target, obviously.
Lotta people saying that...
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BRR.
1) If you have credible evidence of Ukrainian soldiers raping and killing Russian civilians, post it instead of doing what you usually do - your Trump-esque thing of &quot;A lot of people are saying both sides are doing it.&quot;.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xat6JWKp1kw
Credible evidence? Honestly? You call that credible evidence?
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5) If you know of evidence that there are military targets being hidden in civilian areas, post it. If you don't, have some self respect and stop playing the Useful Idiot on this topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5rhidUyObE
Actually human shields, which is worse.
Let me get this right. They've just been released from being held hostage in a steel works. And all of them are spotlessly clean with combed hair and bright, fresh clothes on?
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2) Amnesty International have today accused Russia of deliberately targeting the Mariupol theatre. That targeting was possible because they had air superiority. The theatre was hit with two separate 500kg air drop bombs, despite the sheltering civilians having written (I'm Russian) &quot;CHILDREN&quot; outside in huge letters precisely to indicate that it should not be a target. If you have evidence that contradicts the Amnesty report, post it. And &quot;evidence&quot; doesn't mean &quot;someone on Telegram said maybe...&quot;
3) In areas where Russia does not have air superiority, they have routinely attacked with unguided or poorly guided rockets and missiles. Doing that in densely populated areas is a war crime.
4).....This from the Human Rights Watch body, about the Geneva Convention's definition of the word.
&quot;Under international humanitarian law, attacks that are not, or as a result of the method of attack cannot, be aimed at military targets, are considered &quot;indiscriminate.&quot; They are prohibited under Protocol I and, under the same treaty, constitute war crimes.&quot;
By no means imaginable can a KH22 missile be orecisely aimed at a specific target in an urban area. Either in principle (because the 50 year old guidance technology was intended to get the missile to the general vicinity of a big target while carrying a thermonuclear warhead) or in practice, as we have seen this week. Launching that at a civilian area (even if, as you do, you believe the Russian propaganda that the intended target was military) and then killing civilians IS a war crime. It is the very definition of an indiscriminate attack under the Geneva Convention.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOfWXBSKGTc
Assuming the validity of that, it's horrible. Truly.
I've never questioned that horrific things have gone on in the Donbas after 2014 when Russia fiirst invaded. I think there is evidence of war crimes committed by both sides. That is pretty much inevitable in any conflict where the front line is in urban areas.
What there is no evidence of, is indiscriminate lobbing of 1000kg anti-tank missiles into populated areas hundreds of miles from the front.
Neither is there evidence of systematic obliteration of large urban regions by Ukrainian bombardment.
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And anti-ship missiles. That is, missiles that have not been designed for and are not precise enough to be used for land targets never mind (supposed) land targets near a shopping centre.
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Sorry. I meant anti-ship missiles. My mistake.
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5) If you know of evidence that there are military targets being hidden in civilian areas, post it. If you don't, have some self respect and stop playing the Useful Idiot on this topic.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5rhidUyObE
Actually human shields, which is worse.
Let me get this right. They've just been released from being held hostage in a steel works. And all of them are spotlessly clean with combed hair and bright, fresh clothes on?
Quite probably not immediately after their release.
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2) Amnesty International have today accused Russia of deliberately targeting the Mariupol theatre. That targeting was possible because they had air superiority. The theatre was hit with two separate 500kg air drop bombs, despite the sheltering civilians having written (I'm Russian) &amp;quot;CHILDREN&amp;quot; outside in huge letters precisely to indicate that it should not be a target. If you have evidence that contradicts the Amnesty report, post it. And &amp;quot;evidence&amp;quot; doesn't mean &amp;quot;someone on Telegram said maybe...&amp;quot;
3) In areas where Russia does not have air superiority, they have routinely attacked with unguided or poorly guided rockets and missiles. Doing that in densely populated areas is a war crime.
4).....This from the Human Rights Watch body, about the Geneva Convention's definition of the word.
&amp;quot;Under international humanitarian law, attacks that are not, or as a result of the method of attack cannot, be aimed at military targets, are considered &amp;quot;indiscriminate.&amp;quot; They are prohibited under Protocol I and, under the same treaty, constitute war crimes.&amp;quot;
By no means imaginable can a KH22 missile be orecisely aimed at a specific target in an urban area. Either in principle (because the 50 year old guidance technology was intended to get the missile to the general vicinity of a big target while carrying a thermonuclear warhead) or in practice, as we have seen this week. Launching that at a civilian area (even if, as you do, you believe the Russian propaganda that the intended target was military) and then killing civilians IS a war crime. It is the very definition of an indiscriminate attack under the Geneva Convention.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOfWXBSKGTc
Assuming the validity of that, it's horrible. Truly.
I've never questioned that horrific things have gone on in the Donbas after 2014 when Russia fiirst invaded. I think there is evidence of war crimes committed by both sides. That is pretty much inevitable in any conflict where the front line is in urban areas.
What there is no evidence of, is indiscriminate lobbing of 1000kg anti-tank missiles into populated areas hundreds of miles from the front.
Neither is there evidence of systematic obliteration of large urban regions by Ukrainian bombardment.
It does seems from many vids and reports that Ukraine is hitting back including at civilian targets as they retreat.
And then this
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/least-three-killed-blasts-russias-belgorod-near-ukraine-border-local-governor-2022-07-03/
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2) Amnesty International have today accused Russia of deliberately targeting the Mariupol theatre. That targeting was possible because they had air superiority. The theatre was hit with two separate 500kg air drop bombs, despite the sheltering civilians having written (I'm Russian) &amp;amp;quot;CHILDREN&amp;amp;quot; outside in huge letters precisely to indicate that it should not be a target. If you have evidence that contradicts the Amnesty report, post it. And &amp;amp;quot;evidence&amp;amp;quot; doesn't mean &amp;amp;quot;someone on Telegram said maybe...&amp;amp;quot;
3) In areas where Russia does not have air superiority, they have routinely attacked with unguided or poorly guided rockets and missiles. Doing that in densely populated areas is a war crime.
4).....This from the Human Rights Watch body, about the Geneva Convention's definition of the word.
&amp;amp;quot;Under international humanitarian law, attacks that are not, or as a result of the method of attack cannot, be aimed at military targets, are considered &amp;amp;quot;indiscriminate.&amp;amp;quot; They are prohibited under Protocol I and, under the same treaty, constitute war crimes.&amp;amp;quot;
By no means imaginable can a KH22 missile be orecisely aimed at a specific target in an urban area. Either in principle (because the 50 year old guidance technology was intended to get the missile to the general vicinity of a big target while carrying a thermonuclear warhead) or in practice, as we have seen this week. Launching that at a civilian area (even if, as you do, you believe the Russian propaganda that the intended target was military) and then killing civilians IS a war crime. It is the very definition of an indiscriminate attack under the Geneva Convention.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOfWXBSKGTc
Assuming the validity of that, it's horrible. Truly.
I've never questioned that horrific things have gone on in the Donbas after 2014 when Russia fiirst invaded. I think there is evidence of war crimes committed by both sides. That is pretty much inevitable in any conflict where the front line is in urban areas.
What there is no evidence of, is indiscriminate lobbing of 1000kg anti-tank missiles into populated areas hundreds of miles from the front.
Neither is there evidence of systematic obliteration of large urban regions by Ukrainian bombardment.
It does seems from many vids and reports that Ukraine is hitting back including at civilian targets as they retreat.
And then this
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/least-three-killed-blasts-russias-belgorod-near-ukraine-border-local-governor-2022-07-03/
You realise that this was probably cause because it was intercepted by the Russian and the debris fell on its own citizens, just saying
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You realise that this was probably cause because it was intercepted by the Russian and the debris fell on its own citizens, just saying
If you go with blithe one sided bias you may well choose to think that. If you look even in mainstream western media, you can see that is highly unlikely at best. Totally different scenarios.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10977415/At-three-killed-apparent-Ukrainian-airstrike-Russian-town-Putin-allies-demand-revenge.html
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bias, hmmmm
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In my eyes collateral damage from an air and missile attack is always the fault and blame of the attacker who has caused the situation by choosing a target where this is possible. Even if the damage was technically caused by debris from air defence missiles or targets these defence missiles had hit, the attacker is fully to blame. BTW I am no expert but the pictures of the apartment block I have seen look more like damage from an explosion than being hit by debris.
Compare that with NATO's first ever offensive mission against Bosnian Serb air defences in which the Theatre Air Commander personally vetted all targets on a daily basis to make sure there was no chance of collateral damage.
Source: 'Deliberate Force, an Air Study in Air Campaigning' by Col Robert C Owen (which backs up my personal experience as part of an after action Lessons Learned team)
Putin and his Commanders have at best taken no account whatsoever of civilian casualties on regularly repeated occasions (Theatres, Churches, Schools, Hospitals, Supermarkets.......), and at worst are deliberately targeting them which is a war crime pure and simple.
I meant to get back to this. It was around 500 civilians killed by NATO air strikes in Serbia?
If so, that would be 1/16th the number that Mladic's Serb-backed butchers massacred in a couple of days in Srebrenica. If the NATO action did anything to prevent a repeat, it was justified.
RUBBISH. WTF was Serbia any business of NATO? NATO is clearly a tool in the west and international big business to shape the world in their desired shape. SCUM.
Axholme, I am sure you are completely aware that I find your post offensive and would simply like to ask specifically who within NATO are you calling scum. Is it:
• The politicians who make all the decisions to either accept a NATO new member, launch any NATO operation, define new strategic concepts etc
• The current military staff serving under a current rotation at a NATO establishment or Headquarters who direct an operation authorized by the politicians according to their guidance
• The permanent staff (many civilians, international civil servants if you like)
• All of the above
If the first then you are calling scum every political leader of each NATO nation including the US and the UK, but also Norway, Denmark, Greece, France, Canada, Germany, Poland just to name a very few. The operation referred to in my post was in 1995 when John Major was PM, was authorised by a United Nations Security Council Resolution (are you calling them scum as well). The operation had next to no collateral damage, ended the war in Bosnia, lead to peace and Mladic and Karadzic being found guilty of war crimes (remember Srebenica?). The operation in 1999 (which I was not referring to originally) was launched when Tony Blair was PM, did cause ca 500 deaths by collateral damage which is indeed bad, but can claim to have saved many more lives than that.
If your answer is the second then these are people who followed strict guidelines.
If your answer is 3 or 4 then I am personally being attacked. I think it likely you know very little indeed about my work, but in my 35 years civilian service I always questioned my role and the role of NATO. Throughout I was always convinced NATO was trying to establish and protect peace. I am proud to have done a tiny amount and am honoured to have met some wonderful people who truly have made a difference.
The two operations above are the only offensive ones ever undertaken by NATO – NATO refused to enter operations in Iraq, and was involved as a peace-keeping force in Afghanistan (the initial ISAF force was an ad-hoc coalition, not NATO). In Libya NATO was responsible for the no-fly zone, but it was the US who unilaterally launched the air strikes. NATO was asked to take over so that strikes could be vetoed (from wiki):
24 March 2011: In telephone negotiations, French foreign minister Alain Juppé agreed to let NATO take over all military operations on 29 March at the latest, allowing Turkey to veto strikes on Gaddafi ground forces from that point forward.[76] Later reports stated that NATO would take over enforcement of the no-fly zone and the arms embargo, but discussions were still under way about whether NATO would take over the protection of civilians mission. Turkey reportedly wanted the power to veto airstrikes, while France wanted to prevent Turkey from having such a veto.[77][78]
This is one example of the fact of all NATO nations having to agree an operation or allow accession to a new member (like Sweden & Finland today) means it is a difficult organization for any one nation (particularly the US) to high-jack. Indeed NATO has on occasions refused some aggressive proposals (e.g first Gulf War). Other operations seem to be quickly forgotten such as Humanitarian Relief to Pakistan after an earthquake.
With regards to NATO expansion, not one single nation has been asked to join NATO, it is by request and every single nation concerned has positively wanted this. In my time (I retired more than a decade ago) expansion was never an objective of NATO.
That is the reality I experienced from the inside for 35 years and you now seem to be calling me and my colleagues scum.
None of this is remotely comparable with the brutal actions of Russia in Grozny, Aleppo, Mariupol, and as it looks like many more cities to come.
I hope you read this sufficiently carefully and can decide that your comment may have been founded on insufficient information and knowledge.
The political 'leaders' of the west who wish to shape the world in their own desired shape. If other areas of the world wanted our so called democracy then the people of those regions would have it.
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I am against all power blocks, EU, NATO, USA... they all lead to trouble in the end. IMO they are all driven and controlled by multinational big business who only wish for bigger markets and more profits. The people of all nations are pawns in their games.
Did the U.S. care about Vietnam? No, but they bombed the shit out of it just to prove a point. Western democracy?
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There you go. New avatar, is everyone happy now???
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There you go. New avatar, is everyone happy now???
Love it comrade. Looking forward to you promoting communism on other political threads too.
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There you go. New avatar, is everyone happy now???
Love it comrade. Looking forward to you promoting communism on other political threads too.
No problem. Enver Hoxha was a top man.
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I am against all power blocks, EU, NATO, USA... they all lead to trouble in the end. IMO they are all driven and controlled by multinational big business who only wish for bigger markets and more profits. The people of all nations are pawns in their games.
Did the U.S. care about Vietnam? No, but they bombed the shit out of it just to prove a point. Western democracy?
Axholme – I am certainly not going to defend the USA for a number of things it has done since WW2. However as I have said before, in my opinion, formed from 35 years direct experience, NATO has often proven an effective restraining mechanism against initiating aggressive force through the simple fact that a unanimous vote of all member nations is required. Vetoes have prevented the US from launching operations under the NATO flag.
One Powerblock you omit to mention (or 2 depending on how you look at it) is the Soviet Union/Russian Federation. In the days of the Soviet Union a supposedly equivalent organization to NATO was the WTO/WP (Warsaw Treaty Organisation or Warsaw Pact). Unlike NATO the member nations (Poland, Czechoslavakia, Hungary, Bulgaria, Romania and East Germany) had no such power to stop Soviet policy or decisions, indeed Hungary and Czechoslovakia were invaded by the Soviet Union when they showed dissidence.
I am also not going to argue about the evils of arms dealers and companies. IIRC in the Iran-Iraq war of the 1980s of the 25 major companies providing arms to the conflict, 23 were doing so to both sides. French industry continued for a while providing Exocet training to Argentinian forces during the Falklands conflict. However do these companies have sway over politicians? Yes, but any politician who goes so far as to launch offensive operations based only on increasing arms sales is totally corrupt, and I condemn outright. I can however see that if a nation is thinking of launching operations (e.g. UK Falklands) then an appraisal of what is feasible both in terms of current capabilities and quickly acquired new ones might legitimately be taken into consideration (as far as the decision to launch was legitimate in the first place).
The EU does not play a significant military role but I accept the economic effect of coordinated sanctions from a financial trading powerblock can have an effect. However as has been pointed out earlier in this thread I also believe the EU has been remarkably successful in keeping Europe free from inter member-country wars (so e,g, Northern Ireland as an internal conflict does not count) by having everyone talking and knowing each other within the organization.
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Dutch.
Re: EU and peace. The way in which the anti-EU people blithely ignore this is very depressing. As the saying goes, those who don't know their history are fated to repeat it.
I've been reading the excellent "Two Hundred Years of Muddling Through" by the brilliant Duncan Weldon. It's about the last two centuries history of our economy. He gets it. He says about the founding of the EU, "the idea was to tie Germany and France in such a loving embrace that neither would be able to get a fist free to punch the other one."
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Dutch.
Re: EU and peace. The way in which the anti-EU people blithely ignore this is very depressing. As the saying goes, those who don't know their history are fated to repeat it.
I've been reading the excellent "Two Hundred Years of Muddling Through" by the brilliant Duncan Weldon. It's about the last two centuries history of our economy. He gets it. He says about the founding of the EU, "the idea was to tie Germany and France in such a loving embrace that neither would be able to get a fist free to punch the other one."
But they're nothing to do with us are they? The French will always be second to Germany and they hate us because we've saved them from them twice.
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AL.
You reckon that military action between Germany and France wouldn't affect us?
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AL.
You reckon that military action between Germany and France wouldn't affect us?
Well it's never going to happen is it? The French don't have the bottle for a fight and the Germans have been indoctrinated for the last seventy odd years.
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The ignorance of history peddling itself as certainty in here sometimes...
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Jesus... 200 and more years of strife, warfare, death, disease, maiming and poverty all wiped out in a stroke of Axholme's pen. The thought that Mittel Europa is the most obvious of obvious battlegrounds passes him by. As for the thought that war in central Europe directly, obviously and viciously impacts GB, well, it clearly doesn't matter. Axholme: do you know why Britain declared war in August 1914? In 1701? Do you think those reasons are irrelevant today? They're not. They are crucial to the continued well being of this nation.
BobG
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Jesus... 200 and more years of strife, warfare, death, disease, maiming and poverty all wiped out in a stroke of Axholme's pen. The thought that Mittel Europa is the most obvious of obvious battlegrounds passes him by. As for the thought that war in central Europe directly, obviously and viciously impacts GB, well, it clearly doesn't matter. Axholme: do you know why Britain declared war in August 1914? In 1701? Do you think those reasons are irrelevant today? They're not. They are crucial to the continued well being of this nation.
BobG
Interfering in other peoples business. We didn't need to get involved with either conflict. The Germans have never really wanted a fight with us but we had to get involved. Why can this country not resist poking it's nose in things that are nothing to do with us?
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Jesus... 200 and more years of strife, warfare, death, disease, maiming and poverty all wiped out in a stroke of Axholme's pen. The thought that Mittel Europa is the most obvious of obvious battlegrounds passes him by. As for the thought that war in central Europe directly, obviously and viciously impacts GB, well, it clearly doesn't matter. Axholme: do you know why Britain declared war in August 1914? In 1701? Do you think those reasons are irrelevant today? They're not. They are crucial to the continued well being of this nation.
BobG
Interfering in other peoples business. We didn't need to get involved with either conflict. The Germans have never really wanted a fight with us but we had to get involved. Why can this country not resist poking it's nose in things that are nothing to do with us?
Axholme the largest Arms race in history preced the Great War and it raged for about 15 years prior..we did t build all of those Sper Dreadnoughts to have a Tea Dance off Heligoland!
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Jesus... 200 and more years of strife, warfare, death, disease, maiming and poverty all wiped out in a stroke of Axholme's pen. The thought that Mittel Europa is the most obvious of obvious battlegrounds passes him by. As for the thought that war in central Europe directly, obviously and viciously impacts GB, well, it clearly doesn't matter. Axholme: do you know why Britain declared war in August 1914? In 1701? Do you think those reasons are irrelevant today? They're not. They are crucial to the continued well being of this nation.
BobG
Interfering in other peoples business. We didn't need to get involved with either conflict. The Germans have never really wanted a fight with us but we had to get involved. Why can this country not resist poking it's nose in things that are nothing to do with us?
Axholme the largest Arms race in history preced the Great War and it raged for about 15 years prior..we did t build all of those Sper Dreadnoughts to have a Tea Dance off Heligoland!
As long as we have a huge military we don't need to get involved in the problems of others. We should look after ourselves. If we are strong no-one will mess with us. As for other nations they should solve their own problems. Close the curtains and don't get involved. If Boris hadn't played Mr Big we could have been buying oil and gas from Russia without paying through the nose.
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Jesus... 200 and more years of strife, warfare, death, disease, maiming and poverty all wiped out in a stroke of Axholme's pen. The thought that Mittel Europa is the most obvious of obvious battlegrounds passes him by. As for the thought that war in central Europe directly, obviously and viciously impacts GB, well, it clearly doesn't matter. Axholme: do you know why Britain declared war in August 1914? In 1701? Do you think those reasons are irrelevant today? They're not. They are crucial to the continued well being of this nation.
BobG
Interfering in other peoples business. We didn't need to get involved with either conflict. The Germans have never really wanted a fight with us but we had to get involved. Why can this country not resist poking it's nose in things that are nothing to do with us?
We "Got involved" with every German-French conflict for one simple self-interested reason.
It always was an still is very much not in our interests to have one potentially hostile power controlling Europe. If they do, we wouldn't be a match for them militarily when they turned on us. For centuries, our European policy was to side with the second/third strongest continental powers against the first in any conflict.
So in the Napoleonic Wars, we sided with Russia, Austro-Hungary and Prussia against the French.
In the Crimean War we sided with France and the Ottoman Empire against Russia.
In WWI, we sided with France and Russia against Germany.
Always the same plan - stop any single rival from getting too powerful.
Finally, after WWII, the leaders of France and Germany looked at their shattered countries and realised that they had to find a better way, rather than constantly warring. And that was the reason why the EEC/EU came into existence. To make it literally unthinkable that any West/Central European could ever again think it could do better by fighting its neighbours than it could be collaborating with them.
It has worked spectacularly well.
But anyone who imagines that you could set the countries of Europe back into competing aggressively against each other for national rights and markets, and not run the risk of Europe going up in flames again knows the square root of f**k all about history.
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Jesus... 200 and more years of strife, warfare, death, disease, maiming and poverty all wiped out in a stroke of Axholme's pen. The thought that Mittel Europa is the most obvious of obvious battlegrounds passes him by. As for the thought that war in central Europe directly, obviously and viciously impacts GB, well, it clearly doesn't matter. Axholme: do you know why Britain declared war in August 1914? In 1701? Do you think those reasons are irrelevant today? They're not. They are crucial to the continued well being of this nation.
BobG
Interfering in other peoples business. We didn't need to get involved with either conflict. The Germans have never really wanted a fight with us but we had to get involved. Why can this country not resist poking it's nose in things that are nothing to do with us?
We "Got involved" with every German-French conflict for one simple self-interested reason.
It always was an still is very much not in our interests to have one potentially hostile power controlling Europe. If they do, we wouldn't be a match for them militarily when they turned on us. For centuries, our European policy was to side with the second/third strongest continental powers against the first in any conflict.
So in the Napoleonic Wars, we sided with Russia, Austro-Hungary and Prussia against the French.
In the Crimean War we sided with France and the Ottoman Empire against Russia.
In WWI, we sided with France and Russia against Germany.
Always the same plan - stop any single rival from getting too powerful.
Finally, after WWII, the leaders of France and Germany looked at their shattered countries and realised that they had to find a better way, rather than constantly warring. And that was the reason why the EEC/EU came into existence. To make it literally unthinkable that any West/Central European could ever again think it could do better by fighting its neighbours than it could be collaborating with them.
It has worked spectacularly well.
But anyone who imagines that you could set the countries of Europe back into competing aggressively against each other for national rights and markets, and not run the risk of Europe going up in flames again knows the square root of f**k all about history.
If we made ourselves the strongest military power then we wouldn't need to be concerned about the others. A strong nation will get what it wants regardless of what others may think and say.
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Russia uses incendiary shells to burn Ukranian wheat fields - Putin trying to starve the world to get what he wants:
https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545141325976276999
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Russia uses incendiary shells to burn Ukranian wheat fields - Putin trying to starve the world to get what he wants:
https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545141325976276999
Whereas the US just feeds people. Really, why report such meaningless Daily Mail trash?
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Russia uses incendiary shells to burn Ukranian wheat fields - Putin trying to starve the world to get what he wants:
https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545141325976276999
Whereas the US just feeds people. Really, why report such meaningless Daily Mail trash?
Don't you realise the 'democratic' west is a beacon of good and righteousness on the world? Only those nasty Russians do anything bad.
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Russia uses incendiary shells to burn Ukranian wheat fields - Putin trying to starve the world to get what he wants:
https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545141325976276999
Whereas the US just feeds people. Really, why report such meaningless Daily Mail trash?
Don't you realise the 'democratic' west is a beacon of good and righteousness on the world? Only those nasty Russians do anything bad.
Goodies v Baddies. Oh for that childish simplicity and emotional security in life.
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Ahh yes. This is where the far right and far left meet. At the point where they agree that they have a genius insight: No-one is perfect so criticism of true evil isn't acceptable.
One would have given Hitler a pass. The other Mao and Stalin.
It's the logic that says "Bombing Dresden was wrong. Therefore we shouldn't have fought WWII."
Zero attempt to differentiate between levels of wrong. And convincing themselves that they are on a higher plane of intellectual understanding.
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You CAN picture it can't you?
The week after D-Day.
AL spouting off about how it's nothing to do with us and we should keep out and let Hitler do what he wants.
BRR saying that America is provoking this, and we are responsible for shelling French towns.
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You CAN picture it can't you?
The week after D-Day.
AL spouting off about how it's nothing to do with us and we should keep out and let Hitler do what he wants.
BRR saying that America is provoking this, and we are responsible for shelling French towns.
BST, you fail to see in the Umraine you have a right wing, nationalist nation set on marginalising half its population, ie being racist. Remind you of anyone? And in Russia you have a state which is the other side of the coin, the same coin, as the USA and Britain.
You seem to fall into the prescribed mode of "we're better than them". More fool you.
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Earlier this week I was explaining to my son a simple premise that underlies political theor. It's not universally true, but it is true in a huge preponderance of cases. Parties of the left attract left wing voters. Parties of the right attract right wing voters. And parties that hover somewhere around the centre attract voters of both centre left and centre right. Histoprically, that is why many, many governments were fundamentally cerntrist in outlook. There are outliers of course but the premise has held true for upwards of a hundred years.
So, applying that logic to Axholme Lion and Bristol Red Rover, you can see the argumentative antipathy of the right wing zealot, the quasi intellectual dogmatism of the left wing zealot and the collective failure of extremists of both persuasions to influence anybody, win anything or contribute constructively. As for gaining respect, well, that is upto you.
BobG
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Russia uses incendiary shells to burn Ukranian wheat fields - Putin trying to starve the world to get what he wants:
https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545141325976276999
Whereas the US just feeds people. Really, why report such meaningless Daily Mail trash?
Said the bloke trotting out Kremlin propoganda about 'human shields' and 'both sides'.
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Russia uses incendiary shells to burn Ukranian wheat fields - Putin trying to starve the world to get what he wants:
https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545141325976276999
Whereas the US just feeds people. Really, why report such meaningless Daily Mail trash?
Said the bloke trotting out Kremlin propoganda about 'human shields' and 'both sides'.
Ah, so you don't believe in the use of human shields. More a Janet and John version of war that you're seeing?
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Russia uses incendiary shells to burn Ukranian wheat fields - Putin trying to starve the world to get what he wants:
https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545141325976276999
Whereas the US just feeds people. Really, why report such meaningless Daily Mail trash?
Said the bloke trotting out Kremlin propoganda about 'human shields' and 'both sides'.
Ah, so you don't believe in the use of human shields. More a Janet and John version of war that you're seeing?
Its impossible to have a 'human shield' against an enemy that shoots civilians in the street, fires missles at civilian apartment blocks, shopping centres and schools and drops bombs on marked air raid shelters with children in them.
Some strange Kaffkaesque version of the war that only you and the Kremlin are seeing.
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The War in the MSM and the strange search for 'General Pavel':
Remember people, always check your sources and what they are telling you - whoever they may be:
https://twitter.com/ArbiterOfTweets/status/1545651614253555712
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Russia uses incendiary shells to burn Ukranian wheat fields - Putin trying to starve the world to get what he wants:
https://twitter.com/EuromaidanPress/status/1545141325976276999
Whereas the US just feeds people. Really, why report such meaningless Daily Mail trash?
Said the bloke trotting out Kremlin propoganda about 'human shields' and 'both sides'.
Ah, so you don't believe in the use of human shields. More a Janet and John version of war that you're seeing?
Its impossible to have a 'human shield' against an enemy that shoots civilians in the street, fires missles at civilian apartment blocks, shopping centres and schools and drops bombs on marked air raid shelters with children in them.
Some strange Kaffkaesque version of the war that only you and the Kremlin are seeing.
Are you saying Ukraines are stupid?
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Death toll rises to 15 following Russian missile attack on residential apartments in Chasiv Yar yesterday.
'A Janet & John version of the war'
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1546089036300812288
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Meanwhile, as the longer range artillery moves up to the front on the Ukraine side, they've been picking off Russian ammo dumps in the Donbas. Russian military bloggers are not happy, to say the least. There's talk of serious supply issues.
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It's hard to see where a negotiated cease fire let alone peace will come from.
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Death toll rises to 15 following Russian missile attack on residential apartments in Chasiv Yar yesterday.
'A Janet & John version of the war'
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1546089036300812288
Not seen you mentioning Ukraine shelling of civilians, including the deaths of children. That's the point.
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No. It is emphatically not the point. The point is which side is bestial? Which side started this for personal and national geopolitical advantage? Which side gave treaty guarantees and has now broken them?
BobG
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It's hard to see where a negotiated cease fire let alone peace will come from.
Ukraine has to be giving something. From what I can see, publicly anyway, they aren't giving any territory or change in their NATO and EU aims. Whilst they're losing this war, that's a non starter.
I can only assume Zelensky has something more concrete than "no surrender" coming down the line in order to give him a bargaining chip of value. Needs a lot of weapons and improved fighting abilities. How far will or can the US, and the rest of the NATO gang go?
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No. It is emphatically not the point. The point is which side is bestial? Which side started this for personal and national geopolitical advantage? Which side gave treaty guarantees and has now broken them?
BobG
At least try to keep with the flow of conversation/discussion.
But to reply to your comment, you choose your perspective, one that ignores a coup, non democracy, murdering of cililians who objected to this. And then ignores the global chess game - NATO/EU v Russia, and China for that matter. Like I say, a choice.
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I think what BRR is saying is similar to what many on the Russian-supporting Left say.
Because Russia defines its strategic interests as including large swathes of other sovereign nations, we are duty bound to accept that, and not complain when they move their heavy artillery in to destroy those areas.
It's an odd logic, but I'm sure it makes sense when you start from the assumption that NATO/EU are the real baddies.
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BST, still flogging your narrative of left ve right, extremes, and no doubt terrorists v police.
Very strange how you dismiss some history, then choose to include other aspects of the past, not least a constant harking back to Hitler.
And then, like some others on here, cherry picking your way through what I have said. Ah, well.
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BRR
You could save yourself some finger wear by not doing your usual drivel, and telling me which bits of what I said you disagree with, and why you think they are wrong.
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BST, I thought you had the wherewithal to work that out? Okay then, let's pick thru your drivel...
Russian supporting left. Can you be specific? I've continuously made myself clear on that both personally and re your generalisations/rhetoric.
Russia's strategic interests. I've no doubt Russia has been itching to take a portion of Ukraine. NATO, the US, etc handed them the excuse on a plate. I doubt they'll want more than what I've suggested a few times, though the longer the US etc spin this episode out, the larger that will be. As for other countries? I doubt that, at least in the near, medium future. Maybe you can back up your version of the future?
Their artillery is predominantly focused on destroying Ukraine military, as well as some infrastructure that weakens whatever is left of Ukraine. You seem to be focused on just destruction. Maybe you can clarify what you mean be this esp given that there is a war on. And maybe you know why Ukraine hits civilian targets as it retreats?
NATO etc the real baddies. Well, again, I have spelt out my feelings about this several times. To hold your hand through this I can repeat, but then you choose to ignore what I've said so what's the point?
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Right let's take these one at a time.
Russian supporting Left. I'm happy to accept that your not on the far Left, because you have many similarities with folk on the far Right. What I'm not accepting is that you have magically transcended political alignment. You might not consider yourself to be at the place where far Left meets far Right, but you exhibit all the symptoms of it. So, in the absence of any contrary information, that's where you sit for me.
"Russian supporting". Your regular regurgitation of information from Russian propaganda sources leaves me with little other conclusion to draw
The most egregious recent example was when Russia lobbed two 1000kg anti-ship missiles into a supermarket and the side of a public park 300 miles from the front.
You went through the full gamut of Russian propaganda responses.
1) It might be anti-Russian propaganda.
2) It might be a false flag.
3) It might have been aimed at a military target.
4) What about Ukraine?
1-3 were all demonstrably false. But they were precisely what Russian trolls were pushing. And you pushed them hard.
And I know your line. "Ooh! Ooh! I only said "might"." Which of course is exactly how the best propaganda works. You blow smoke all over the scene but give yourself an out.
Course, if you were REALLY acting in good faith, when it was clear that your "mights" were all wrong, you'd go back and hold your hand up and say "Yes I agree, it was a shockingly reckless terrorist attack by a gangster state."
But you don't. You push the fourth point "What about Ukraine?" even harder.
So go on. Give me an example of Ukrain chucking 1000kg anti ship missiles into residential areas of towns hundreds of miles from the front.
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Right let's take these one at a time.
Russian supporting Left. I'm happy to accept that your not on the far Left, because you have many similarities with folk on the far Right. What I'm not accepting is that you have magically transcended political alignment. You might not consider yourself to be at the place where far Left meets far Right, but you exhibit all the symptoms of it. So, in the absence of any contrary information, that's where you sit for me.
"Russian supporting". Your regular regurgitation of information from Russian propaganda sources leaves me with little other conclusion to draw
The most egregious recent example was when Russia lobbed two 1000kg anti-ship missiles into a supermarket and the side of a public park 300 miles from the front.
You went through the full gamut of Russian propaganda responses.
1) It might be anti-Russian propaganda.
2) It might be a false flag.
3) It might have been aimed at a military target.
4) What about Ukraine?
1-3 were all demonstrably false. But they were precisely what Russian trolls were pushing. And you pushed them hard.
And I know your line. "Ooh! Ooh! I only said "might"." Which of course is exactly how the best propaganda works. You blow smoke all over the scene but give yourself an out.
Course, if you were REALLY acting in good faith, when it was clear that your "mights" were all wrong, you'd go back and hold your hand up and say "Yes I agree, it was a shockingly reckless terrorist attack by a gangster state."
But you don't. You push the fourth point "What about Ukraine?" even harder.
So go on. Give me an example of Ukrain chucking 1000kg anti ship missiles into residential areas of towns hundreds of miles from the front.
Cherry picked reply from you, as per. You know what you ignored, intentionally.
Yes, I gave the info about the supermarket as you and others here said it was an intentional attack on civilians - which you repeated above. I gave other posibilities, including the military target which appears to be accurate. I also clarified it was not a hit on the supermarket. And you still believe that Ukraine having weapons stores in civilian areas is okay. Nuts. I am also aware Russia has some stores in civilian areas. They are both guilty here. But you only see one set of baddies.
As for your ignoring of my point re NATO/US, it appears you are an imperialist, which is weird given your comdemnation of the Iraq (and Libya??) crimes. Both Russia and the US, UK etc etc, are doing exactly the same, albeit in slightly different ways. They are all imperialist, run by the wealthy, stealing from ordinary people to give to the wealthy including creating wars to enhance all that.
NATO may be all about protection and defence, but it is purely a glossy shop front for the imperialist countries that sponsor it. How anyone, including DU, cannot see that is beyond me.
Where the left meets the right etc etc - just in that nonsense, you are yourself saying how the left right idea is gone. Let it go, enter the century we are in. This is, and always was, about people not being slaves. And on the other hand, about groups of elite managing their slaves in the best way possible. Like Rome turned from military to religion and milked the people more effectively, the West is predominantly a culture of paliating the masses with bullshit democracy, sports, drugs, consumerism and the classic divide and rule - and in that last one, you sit playing their game for them with your left v right.
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BRR.
I didn't say it was an intentional hit on the supermarket.
It couldn't be an intentional hit on a target of that size, because those missiles aren't capable of being aimed that accurately. Which destroys any argument that they were targeting a military facility. Although once again, like the Russian propaganda bots, you throw that in. And you follow it up with your "Ukraine...military stores... civilians" which has precisely zero to do with this issue.
All that is why I say you are a Russian propaganda stooge.
By the way, I said the missile was a reckless attack on a civilian area. Which it was. Utterly unsupportable. Unless you're inventing reasons to support it.
And it WAS a direct hit on the supermarket. Not deliberate, because it couldn't be. Reckless. Your photo wasn't enough to ascertain the exact detonation point, but I've figured it out for myself from the CCTV video. Bellingcat came to a similar conclusion.
But you'll continue believing your own alternative truth.
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''Bellingcat is Banned in Russia. Here’s How to Beat the Block''
https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/2022/04/22/how-to-beat-russias-block-on-bellingcat/
you could pass this on to your neighbour BRR
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''Bellingcat is Banned in Russia. Here’s How to Beat the Block''
https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/2022/04/22/how-to-beat-russias-block-on-bellingcat/
you could pass this on to your neighbour BRR
What crass prejudice. You're one sicko.
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''Bellingcat is Banned in Russia. Here’s How to Beat the Block''
https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/2022/04/22/how-to-beat-russias-block-on-bellingcat/
you could pass this on to your neighbour BRR
What crass prejudice. You're one sicko.
has she asked you to send her money yet?
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NATO may be all about protection and defence, but it is purely a glossy shop front for the imperialist countries that sponsor it. How anyone, including DU, cannot see that is beyond me.
Maybe 35 years of experience of (among other things) the contracting side of NATO, the bidding process for common funding projects, and how difficult it is for any large company to have any influence or sway?
However I have no experience of how large companies can or can't influence large contracts with individual NATO member nations.
Please keep the distinction clear between NATO the international body, and the individual nations who are free to contract anything they want through their own procedures and their own national funding outside of NATO common funding.
I will absolutely stand by NATO, the international organisation, as a peace oriented body, and disagree profoundly with your description.
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''Bellingcat is Banned in Russia. Here’s How to Beat the Block''
https://www.bellingcat.com/resources/2022/04/22/how-to-beat-russias-block-on-bellingcat/
you could pass this on to your neighbour BRR
What crass prejudice. You're one sicko.
has she asked you to send her money yet?
wtf are you talking about? Way too many fosters going on? Smoking Platypus dung? Whatever it is, do one.
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NATO may be all about protection and defence, but it is purely a glossy shop front for the imperialist countries that sponsor it. How anyone, including DU, cannot see that is beyond me.
Maybe 35 years of experience of (among other things) the contracting side of NATO, the bidding process for common funding projects, and how difficult it is for any large company to have any influence or sway?
However I have no experience of how large companies can or can't influence large contracts with individual NATO member nations.
Please keep the distinction clear between NATO the international body, and the individual nations who are free to contract anything they want through their own procedures and their own national funding outside of NATO common funding.
I will absolutely stand by NATO, the international organisation, as a peace oriented body, and disagree profoundly with your description.
I guess we will always differ here. But tell me how has NATO encouraging Ukraine to join has contributed to peace and saving lives.
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BRR.
I didn't say it was an intentional hit on the supermarket.
It couldn't be an intentional hit on a target of that size, because those missiles aren't capable of being aimed that accurately. Which destroys any argument that they were targeting a military facility. Although once again, like the Russian propaganda bots, you throw that in. And you follow it up with your "Ukraine...military stores... civilians" which has precisely zero to do with this issue.
All that is why I say you are a Russian propaganda stooge.
By the way, I said the missile was a reckless attack on a civilian area. Which it was. Utterly unsupportable. Unless you're inventing reasons to support it.
And it WAS a direct hit on the supermarket. Not deliberate, because it couldn't be. Reckless. Your photo wasn't enough to ascertain the exact detonation point, but I've figured it out for myself from the CCTV video. Bellingcat came to a similar conclusion.
But you'll continue believing your own alternative truth.
Oh dear.
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BRR.
As engaged with the facts as ever.
Do you want to know why your insistence on where the impact point was of the missile at the supermarket?
Two reasons.
1) Bellingcat point out with geolocations and assessment of the field of view of the CCTV footage of the missile strike that the detonation point had to be within the perimeter of the supermarket.
Scroll down about halfway here. https://www.bellingcat.com/news/2022/06/29/russias-kremenchuk-claims-versus-the-evidence/
In fact, no, don't scroll down. Read the whole article. see how it systematically demolishes the very arguments you've put up in here (which bear remarkable similarity to Russian propaganda ops).
2) My own analysis. Simple enough really for anyone scientifically trained. A quick and dirty analysis of this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPZ_Zl-2l78
he point at which you insisted the missile struck is 115m from the CCTV camera that recorded the footage. You can clearly see on the CCTV camera footage, the time of detonation and the arrival of the shock wave at the camera. There's a delay of 9 frames and both the metadata of the YT video, and counting the frames per second on the CCTV digital clock show that the video was captured at 25 frames per second.
So the time lag from detonation to the blast wave arriving at the CCTV camera is 0.36s. Which implies an average blast wave speed of 115m/0.36s = 314m/s.
But this is slower than the speed of sound in air (~340m/s). And blast waves always travel FASTER than the normal speed of sound in air. So the only conclusion is that the detonation didn't happen at the point where you insisted it did. It was further away than that, and along a different line - if it had been by the rail track, it would have obscured that yellow facade of the supermarket as the Bellingcat analysis shows.
I wonder whose interests it was in to spread the lie that the detonation was on the rail track, not on the supermarket itself? The lie that you have gullibly repeated multiple times.
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NATO may be all about protection and defence, but it is purely a glossy shop front for the imperialist countries that sponsor it. How anyone, including DU, cannot see that is beyond me.
Maybe 35 years of experience of (among other things) the contracting side of NATO, the bidding process for common funding projects, and how difficult it is for any large company to have any influence or sway?
However I have no experience of how large companies can or can't influence large contracts with individual NATO member nations.
Please keep the distinction clear between NATO the international body, and the individual nations who are free to contract anything they want through their own procedures and their own national funding outside of NATO common funding.
I will absolutely stand by NATO, the international organisation, as a peace oriented body, and disagree profoundly with your description.
I guess we will always differ here. But tell me how has NATO encouraging Ukraine to join has contributed to peace and saving lives.
I will let everyone judge for themselves:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_relations
In principle I would like to think that Ukraine would not be handled differently from any other sovereign nation w.r.t accession. Quite how pro-active that is and whether it is reasonable or excessive will be a matter of opinion. IMHO NATO would not be pro-active to any nation not wishing to join, it would not actively 'recruit'. Quite how pro-active to be once interest is declared should be the same (cf Sweden, Finland).
Any Nation wanting peace should not fear NATO.
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BST, I'll get back to your cherry picked replies fully when I have time, meanwhile it'll be interesting to see how the accurate the HIMARS are. Reportedly being successful at hitting warehouses and command posts, though also killing a great many civilians too. So now maybe even Stevens in that way.
Russians are targeting the HIMARS, obviously, reportedly a number destroyed. The next week or so should give some proof to the puddings either way.
More interesting is what Ukraine does next. It is evidently on a steady losing streak in the North East. Russians giving more action in the Kharkiv area. Ukraine may not be able to do too much there, but are reportedly going to start on the south west area. Will they be successful?
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I suggest ignoring brr and let him play soldiers in his own little world
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New moderator?
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BST, I'll get back to your cherry picked replies fully when I have time, meanwhile it'll be interesting to see how the accurate the HIMARS are. Reportedly being successful at hitting warehouses and command posts, though also killing a great many civilians too. So now maybe even Stevens in that way.
Russians are targeting the HIMARS, obviously, reportedly a number destroyed. The next week or so should give some proof to the puddings either way.
More interesting is what Ukraine does next. It is evidently on a steady losing streak in the North East. Russians giving more action in the Kharkiv area. Ukraine may not be able to do too much there, but are reportedly going to start on the south west area. Will they be successful?
It’s a war not a soap.
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BST, I'll get back to your cherry picked replies fully when I have time, meanwhile it'll be interesting to see how the accurate the HIMARS are. Reportedly being successful at hitting warehouses and command posts, though also killing a great many civilians too. So now maybe even Stevens in that way.
Russians are targeting the HIMARS, obviously, reportedly a number destroyed. The next week or so should give some proof to the puddings either way.
More interesting is what Ukraine does next. It is evidently on a steady losing streak in the North East. Russians giving more action in the Kharkiv area. Ukraine may not be able to do too much there, but are reportedly going to start on the south west area. Will they be successful?
What is success when your country has been invaded?
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NATO may be all about protection and defence, but it is purely a glossy shop front for the imperialist countries that sponsor it. How anyone, including DU, cannot see that is beyond me.
Maybe 35 years of experience of (among other things) the contracting side of NATO, the bidding process for common funding projects, and how difficult it is for any large company to have any influence or sway?
However I have no experience of how large companies can or can't influence large contracts with individual NATO member nations.
Please keep the distinction clear between NATO the international body, and the individual nations who are free to contract anything they want through their own procedures and their own national funding outside of NATO common funding.
I will absolutely stand by NATO, the international organisation, as a peace oriented body, and disagree profoundly with your description.
I guess we will always differ here. But tell me how has NATO encouraging Ukraine to join has contributed to peace and saving lives.
I would always defer to DU on the running and organisational structure of NATO, he knoweth of which he speaks, but my answer to the question would be - No NATO country has ever been attacked.
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Death toll rises to 15 following Russian missile attack on residential apartments in Chasiv Yar yesterday.
'A Janet &amp; John version of the war'
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1546089036300812288
Not seen you mentioning Ukraine shelling of civilians, including the deaths of children. That's the point.
Ukraine hasn't invaded anywhere - it has been invaded by a fascist imperialist - that's the point.
Death toll from this attack now 43. It's 12 miles from the front line.
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NATO may be all about protection and defence, but it is purely a glossy shop front for the imperialist countries that sponsor it. How anyone, including DU, cannot see that is beyond me.
Maybe 35 years of experience of (among other things) the contracting side of NATO, the bidding process for common funding projects, and how difficult it is for any large company to have any influence or sway?
However I have no experience of how large companies can or can't influence large contracts with individual NATO member nations.
Please keep the distinction clear between NATO the international body, and the individual nations who are free to contract anything they want through their own procedures and their own national funding outside of NATO common funding.
I will absolutely stand by NATO, the international organisation, as a peace oriented body, and disagree profoundly with your description.
I guess we will always differ here. But tell me how has NATO encouraging Ukraine to join has contributed to peace and saving lives.
I would always defer to DU on the running and organisational structure of NATO, he knoweth of which he speaks, but my answer to the question would be - No NATO country has ever been attacked.
Falkland Islands?
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NATO may be all about protection and defence, but it is purely a glossy shop front for the imperialist countries that sponsor it. How anyone, including DU, cannot see that is beyond me.
Maybe 35 years of experience of (among other things) the contracting side of NATO, the bidding process for common funding projects, and how difficult it is for any large company to have any influence or sway?
However I have no experience of how large companies can or can't influence large contracts with individual NATO member nations.
Please keep the distinction clear between NATO the international body, and the individual nations who are free to contract anything they want through their own procedures and their own national funding outside of NATO common funding.
I will absolutely stand by NATO, the international organisation, as a peace oriented body, and disagree profoundly with your description.
I guess we will always differ here. But tell me how has NATO encouraging Ukraine to join has contributed to peace and saving lives.
I would always defer to DU on the running and organisational structure of NATO, he knoweth of which he speaks, but my answer to the question would be - No NATO country has ever been attacked.
Falkland Islands?
Didn’t realise that the FI were part of the NATO. The only country to activate article 5 of the NATO treaty would be America after 9/11 attack.
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Didn’t realise that the FI were part of the NATO. The only country to activate article 5 of the NATO treaty would be America after 9/11 attack
Too far south, NATO is only for the wealthy North apparently.
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Didn’t realise that the FI were part of the NATO. The only country to activate article 5 of the NATO treaty would be America after 9/11 attack
Too far south, NATO is only for the wealthy North apparently.
The clue's in the name...
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Didn’t realise that the FI were part of the NATO. The only country to activate article 5 of the NATO treaty would be America after 9/11 attack
Too far south, NATO is only for the wealthy North apparently.
The clue's in the name...
#blinkersbrigade
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Didn’t realise that the FI were part of the NATO. The only country to activate article 5 of the NATO treaty would be America after 9/11 attack
Too far south, NATO is only for the wealthy North apparently.
Official Text (bold my emphasis):
Article 5
The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.
Any such armed attack and all measures taken as a result thereof shall immediately be reported to the Security Council. Such measures shall be terminated when the Security Council has taken the measures necessary to restore and maintain international peace and security .
Article 6 1
For the purpose of Article 5, an armed attack on one or more of the Parties is deemed to include an armed attack:
on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.
Nothing to do with wealth, more that in 1949 NATO (as the name suggests) was set up for this geographical area, and to avoid any perceived power projection.
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NATO may be all about protection and defence, but it is purely a glossy shop front for the imperialist countries that sponsor it. How anyone, including DU, cannot see that is beyond me.
Maybe 35 years of experience of (among other things) the contracting side of NATO, the bidding process for common funding projects, and how difficult it is for any large company to have any influence or sway?
However I have no experience of how large companies can or can't influence large contracts with individual NATO member nations.
Please keep the distinction clear between NATO the international body, and the individual nations who are free to contract anything they want through their own procedures and their own national funding outside of NATO common funding.
I will absolutely stand by NATO, the international organisation, as a peace oriented body, and disagree profoundly with your description.
I guess we will always differ here. But tell me how has NATO encouraging Ukraine to join has contributed to peace and saving lives.
I would always defer to DU on the running and organisational structure of NATO, he knoweth of which he speaks, but my answer to the question would be - No NATO country has ever been attacked.
Falkland Islands?
Didn’t realise that the FI were part of the NATO. The only country to activate article 5 of the NATO treaty would be America after 9/11 attack.
It's British territory.
So who attacked the US on 911. As far as i can see no nation state was responsible.
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Afghanistan, via Bin Laden, via Al Queda, via the Taliban.
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NATO may be all about protection and defence, but it is purely a glossy shop front for the imperialist countries that sponsor it. How anyone, including DU, cannot see that is beyond me.
Maybe 35 years of experience of (among other things) the contracting side of NATO, the bidding process for common funding projects, and how difficult it is for any large company to have any influence or sway?
However I have no experience of how large companies can or can't influence large contracts with individual NATO member nations.
Please keep the distinction clear between NATO the international body, and the individual nations who are free to contract anything they want through their own procedures and their own national funding outside of NATO common funding.
I will absolutely stand by NATO, the international organisation, as a peace oriented body, and disagree profoundly with your description.
I guess we will always differ here. But tell me how has NATO encouraging Ukraine to join has contributed to peace and saving lives.
I would always defer to DU on the running and organisational structure of NATO, he knoweth of which he speaks, but my answer to the question would be - No NATO country has ever been attacked.
Falkland Islands?
Didn’t realise that the FI were part of the NATO. The only country to activate article 5 of the NATO treaty would be America after 9/11 attack.
It's British territory.
So who attacked the US on 911. As far as i can see no nation state was responsible.
It’s a British Overseas Territory, not covered by NATO, see the answer by DU which explains it far better than I can
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NATO may be all about protection and defence, but it is purely a glossy shop front for the imperialist countries that sponsor it. How anyone, including DU, cannot see that is beyond me.
Maybe 35 years of experience of (among other things) the contracting side of NATO, the bidding process for common funding projects, and how difficult it is for any large company to have any influence or sway?
However I have no experience of how large companies can or can't influence large contracts with individual NATO member nations.
Please keep the distinction clear between NATO the international body, and the individual nations who are free to contract anything they want through their own procedures and their own national funding outside of NATO common funding.
I will absolutely stand by NATO, the international organisation, as a peace oriented body, and disagree profoundly with your description.
I guess we will always differ here. But tell me how has NATO encouraging Ukraine to join has contributed to peace and saving lives.
I would always defer to DU on the running and organisational structure of NATO, he knoweth of which he speaks, but my answer to the question would be - No NATO country has ever been attacked.
Falkland Islands?
Didn’t realise that the FI were part of the NATO. The only country to activate article 5 of the NATO treaty would be America after 9/11 attack.
It's British territory.
So who attacked the US on 911. As far as i can see no nation state was responsible.
Article 5 doesn't say anything about an attack being by a nation state.
Here's a thought! Why don't you go and read it?
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''Russia has banned investigative news outlet Bellingcat and its partner The Insider. Russia’s prosecutor general said their activities “posed a threat to... the security of the Russian federation.”
A statement said both organisations will be added to Russia’s “undesirable” list, which bans them from operating in Russia and makes cooperating with them illegal for Russian organisations and individuals.
Bellingcat founder Eliot Higgins has questioned how it can be applied, given that it has no presence in Russia, tweeting “Bellingcat has been declared an undesirable organisation in Russia, along with our partners The Insider. Bellingcat has no legal, financial or staff presence, so it’s unclear how Russia expects to enforce this.”
He also posted a gif of Jim Carrey as film character the Mask accepting an award''
Guardian live
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Meanwhile, your occasional reminder of the hypocrite that is Jeremy Corbyn.
To the best of my knowledge, this from 3 months ago is the last time he commented publicly on Putin's War.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1518242386178097154
How exactly anyone was supposed to enforce a withdrawal of Russian troops is anyone's guess but it sounds nice doesn't it?
Since then, Russia has put the Donbas through the meat grinder, and regularly lobbed missiles into residential areas hundreds of miles from the front.
Not a peep from Corbyn, that saintly, indomitable opponent of aggression. I wonder why he has lost his voice?
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Fascinating thread here:
Over the past five days there has been a massive drop off in Russian artillery shelling of Ukraine - as the Ukranians have begun targeting their ammo dumps and logistical centres with the newly arrived HIMARS. Are we about to see a swing in the direction of the war:
https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1548560683692101633
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This tipping point had been projected Wilts. I'm thinking this is now the most dangerous moment in the war. What does the thug in the Kremlin do if he starts to get forced back?
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Meanwhile, your occasional reminder of the hypocrite that is Jeremy Corbyn.
To the best of my knowledge, this from 3 months ago is the last time he commented publicly on Putin's War.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1518242386178097154
How exactly anyone was supposed to enforce a withdrawal of Russian troops is anyone's guess but it sounds nice doesn't it?
Since then, Russia has put the Donbas through the meat grinder, and regularly lobbed missiles into residential areas hundreds of miles from the front.
Not a peep from Corbyn, that saintly, indomitable opponent of aggression. I wonder why he has lost his voice?
Still heard nowt of the BST plan, past or present.
-
Fascinating thread here:
Over the past five days there has been a massive drop off in Russian artillery shelling of Ukraine - as the Ukranians have begun targeting their ammo dumps and logistical centres with the newly arrived HIMARS. Are we about to see a swing in the direction of the war:
https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1548560683692101633
How many HIMARS have been destroyed? I've not seen any let off on shelling of Ukraine military, neither have the retreating Ukraine it would seem.
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This tipping point had been projected Wilts. I'm thinking this is now the most dangerous moment in the war. What does the thug in the Kremlin do if he starts to get forced back?
If. So far not nearly happening. The brash Zelensky statements about the southern offensive have come to nothing. HIMARS deffo were troubling, but seems they are being reduced.
How much more will the US/NATO invest in this? Also I heard US has reduced sanctions on certain Russian products. Tide turning?
-
Fascinating thread here:
Over the past five days there has been a massive drop off in Russian artillery shelling of Ukraine - as the Ukranians have begun targeting their ammo dumps and logistical centres with the newly arrived HIMARS. Are we about to see a swing in the direction of the war:
https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1548560683692101633
How many HIMARS have been destroyed? I've not seen any let off on shelling of Ukraine military, neither have the retreating Ukraine it would seem.
No idea - I presume one of your sources will tell us?
I presume they will also tell us how many ammo dumps, command posts and other logistical targets Ukraine has hit.
-
Meanwhile, your occasional reminder of the hypocrite that is Jeremy Corbyn.
To the best of my knowledge, this from 3 months ago is the last time he commented publicly on Putin's War.
https://mobile.twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1518242386178097154
How exactly anyone was supposed to enforce a withdrawal of Russian troops is anyone's guess but it sounds nice doesn't it?
Since then, Russia has put the Donbas through the meat grinder, and regularly lobbed missiles into residential areas hundreds of miles from the front.
Not a peep from Corbyn, that saintly, indomitable opponent of aggression. I wonder why he has lost his voice?
He is at Tolpuddle today, if I knew you were interested I would have gone down to ask him. Or you could have gone yourself, he is always happy to chat to people. I presume he was at Durham last week - you could have gone there.
Tho I don't know what you expect him to say that he hasn't already said? He has condemned Putin for the invasion and atrocities commited during it and said there needs to be a negotiated solution to end it.
Which is what most people here want (other than the ones who want us to be directly involved - not gonna happen - or the one poster who wants Putin to win), you, me, BRR, Dutch, Bob etc, thats what we - and Corbyn - all want.
There are only two possible ends to the war and both revolve around what Putin will decide to do, he defeats Ukraine on the battlefield and wipes the country off the map - or there is a negotiated peace. The only differences are how and when this peace should happen - now and give Putin something to make him stop - or when Zelensky forces him to stop.
There is absolutely nothing Jeremy Corbyn or anyone else can say to make that any different.
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Well, there is a third way it ends...
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Wilts
Don't you find it at all bemusing that a man who falls over himself to point out any military action that can be attributed to Western influence or i threats has said precisely nothing about Russia lobbing 1000kg anti-ship warheads into residential areas hundreds of miles from war fronts?
I know that you are appalled and disgusted by those attacks, as I am.
Why isn't Corbyn?
Do you think he'd have stayed silent if Britain or America or Israel had done that? Of course he wouldn't. He'd have rightly been outraged.
But Putin does it and there's not a squeak.
And of course that fits a pattern. He refused ever to directly criticise Putin's obliteration of Aleppo, or his facilitating the gassing of Doumas. His instinct was not even to criticise Russia over the Salisbury attack until even he realised that stance wasn't politically credible.
But then maybe it's not so odd when the Putin apologist that Corbyn himself hired as his Press Secretary is on record as saying that we shouldn't bring attention to Russian war crimes because they divert attention from those of the West.
I'll tell you what I think. The hypocrisy disgusts me.
-
Wilts
Don't you find it at all bemusing that a man who falls over himself to point out any military action that can be attributed to Western influence or i threats has said precisely nothing about Russia lobbing 1000kg anti-ship warheads into residential areas hundreds of miles from war fronts?
I know that you are appalled and disgusted by those attacks, as I am.
Why isn't Corbyn?
Do you think he'd have stayed silent if Britain or America or Israel had done that? Of course he wouldn't. He'd have rightly been outraged.
But Putin does it and there's not a squeak.
And of course that fits a pattern. He refused ever to directly criticise Putin's obliteration of Aleppo, or his facilitating the gassing of Doumas. His instinct was not even to criticise Russia over the Salisbury attack until even he realised that stance wasn't politically credible.
But then maybe it's not so odd when the Putin apologist that Corbyn himself hired as his Press Secretary is on record as saying that we shouldn't bring attention to Russian war crimes because they divert attention from those of the West.
I'll tell you what I think. The hypocrisy disgusts me.
Hypocrisy, ha ha.
Russia obliterated Aleppo in 2016, the gassing was in 2018 as was the Salisbury terrorist attack.
You still supported Corbyn through two GEs despite being disgusted at his non condemnation of these events.
-
Wilts
Don't you find it at all bemusing that a man who falls over himself to point out any military action that can be attributed to Western influence or i threats has said precisely nothing about Russia lobbing 1000kg anti-ship warheads into residential areas hundreds of miles from war fronts?
I know that you are appalled and disgusted by those attacks, as I am.
Why isn't Corbyn?
Do you think he'd have stayed silent if Britain or America or Israel had done that? Of course he wouldn't. He'd have rightly been outraged.
But Putin does it and there's not a squeak.
And of course that fits a pattern. He refused ever to directly criticise Putin's obliteration of Aleppo, or his facilitating the gassing of Doumas. His instinct was not even to criticise Russia over the Salisbury attack until even he realised that stance wasn't politically credible.
But then maybe it's not so odd when the Putin apologist that Corbyn himself hired as his Press Secretary is on record as saying that we shouldn't bring attention to Russian war crimes because they divert attention from those of the West.
I'll tell you what I think. The hypocrisy disgusts me.
Hypocrisy, ha ha.
Russia obliterated Aleppo in 2016, the gassing was in 2918 as was the Salisbury terrorist attack.
You still supported Corbyn through two GEs despite being disgusted at his non condemnation of these events.
And other people voted for Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson despite his party taking £millions in donations from Russian sources connected to Putin and he himself going to a party hosted by a known KGB agent (they are never ex-agents) and judged a security rik by MI5 less than a month after Salisbury.
-
Wilts
Don't you find it at all bemusing that a man who falls over himself to point out any military action that can be attributed to Western influence or i threats has said precisely nothing about Russia lobbing 1000kg anti-ship warheads into residential areas hundreds of miles from war fronts?
I know that you are appalled and disgusted by those attacks, as I am.
Why isn't Corbyn?
Do you think he'd have stayed silent if Britain or America or Israel had done that? Of course he wouldn't. He'd have rightly been outraged.
But Putin does it and there's not a squeak.
And of course that fits a pattern. He refused ever to directly criticise Putin's obliteration of Aleppo, or his facilitating the gassing of Doumas. His instinct was not even to criticise Russia over the Salisbury attack until even he realised that stance wasn't politically credible.
But then maybe it's not so odd when the Putin apologist that Corbyn himself hired as his Press Secretary is on record as saying that we shouldn't bring attention to Russian war crimes because they divert attention from those of the West.
I'll tell you what I think. The hypocrisy disgusts me.
Hypocrisy, ha ha.
Russia obliterated Aleppo in 2016, the gassing was in 2918 as was the Salisbury terrorist attack.
You still supported Corbyn through two GEs despite being disgusted at his non condemnation of these events.
And other people voted for Alexander de Pfeffel Johnson despite his party taking £millions in donations from Russian sources connected to Putin and he himself going to a party hosted by a known KGB agent (they are never ex-agents) and judged a security rik by MI5 less than a month after Salisbury.
Yes wilts, some people did.
But I didn’t.
-
Fascinating thread here:
Over the past five days there has been a massive drop off in Russian artillery shelling of Ukraine - as the Ukranians have begun targeting their ammo dumps and logistical centres with the newly arrived HIMARS. Are we about to see a swing in the direction of the war:
https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1548560683692101633
How many HIMARS have been destroyed? I've not seen any let off on shelling of Ukraine military, neither have the retreating Ukraine it would seem.
No idea - I presume one of your sources will tell us?
I presume they will also tell us how many ammo dumps, command posts and other logistical targets Ukraine has hit.
Reports of HIMARS getting destroyed. US not got an endless fundiung for them.
The most solid evidence would be in the continued Russian advances. I'm not hearing of any reduction overall in shelling.
-
BRR.
"Reports" from where?
And of course you won't hear of any reduction in shelling if you get your info from Russian MoD Telegram accounts.
-
Fascinating thread here:
Over the past five days there has been a massive drop off in Russian artillery shelling of Ukraine - as the Ukranians have begun targeting their ammo dumps and logistical centres with the newly arrived HIMARS. Are we about to see a swing in the direction of the war:
https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1548560683692101633
How many HIMARS have been destroyed? I've not seen any let off on shelling of Ukraine military, neither have the retreating Ukraine it would seem.
No idea - I presume one of your sources will tell us?
I presume they will also tell us how many ammo dumps, command posts and other logistical targets Ukraine has hit.
Reports of HIMARS getting destroyed. US not got an endless fundiung for them.
The most solid evidence would be in the continued Russian advances. I'm not hearing of any reduction overall in shelling.
Did you not read the posts in that link - that detail the reduction in Russian shelling!!!
-
Fascinating thread here:
Over the past five days there has been a massive drop off in Russian artillery shelling of Ukraine - as the Ukranians have begun targeting their ammo dumps and logistical centres with the newly arrived HIMARS. Are we about to see a swing in the direction of the war:
https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1548560683692101633 (https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1548560683692101633)
How many HIMARS have been destroyed? I've not seen any let off on shelling of Ukraine military, neither have the retreating Ukraine it would seem.
No idea - I presume one of your sources will tell us?
I presume they will also tell us how many ammo dumps, command posts and other logistical targets Ukraine has hit.
Reports of HIMARS getting destroyed. US not got an endless fundiung for them.
The most solid evidence would be in the continued Russian advances. I'm not hearing I will not hear of any reduction overall in shelling.
There you go, BRR. Corrected for you.
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BRR and AL's handlers won't tell them, but....
Response to Moscow Mechanism Report on Ukraine
As delivered by Ambassador Michael Carpenter to the Permanent Council, Vienna
Professors Bilkova, Guercio, and Sancin: welcome to the Permanent Council and thank you for presenting us with your comprehensive experts’ report. We appreciate the amount of work that has gone into your mission and how laborious and sobering it must have been to collect all the facts reflected in the report. But these facts matter – to us, to the victims of Russia’s brutalities, and to the world.
Russia’s attacks on Ukraine continue, and I must point this out, even as this council deliberates. As we were meeting this morning Russian missiles struck the town of Vinnytsia and killed at least 20 people, including three children. Many of you have probably seen the images on Social Media: a children’s carriage, on its side, the body underneath. It is disgusting, but sadly, it’s become a reality that we contend with each and every day in this Council.
That’s why today’s efforts at accountability are so important. Today’s Moscow Mechanism report gives us an opportunity to pull back and document the unconscionable atrocity crimes, human rights violations, and abuses members of Russia’s forces have committed since Russia launched its brutal full-scale invasion in February of this year in an attempt to seize additional territory from Ukraine. Today’s report covers the period from April 1 to June 25, so it necessarily gives us only a limited window into the depravities of Russia’s war. But even so, it clearly states that “the magnitude and frequency of the indiscriminate attacks carried out against civilians and civilian objects, including sites where no military facility was identified, is credible evidence that hostilities were conducted by Russian armed forces disregarding their fundamental obligation to comply with the basic principles of distinction, proportionality and precaution that constitute the fundamental basis of International Humanitarian Law” (p. 3).
The report states that “The events concerning the towns of Bucha and Irpin, that were visited by the mission, are two emblematic examples of the breaches of International Humanitarian Law under the Geneva Conventions and their Additional Protocols, which constitute war crimes” (p. 3). Moreover, the report states that “some patterns of violent acts violating International Human Rights Law, which have been repeatedly documented during the conflict, such as targeted killing, enforced disappearance or abduction of civilians,” meet the qualification of a “widespread or systematic attack directed against any civilian population.” As the report notes, “any single violent act of this type, committed as part of such an attack and with the knowledge of it, constitutes a crime against humanity” (p. 4).
Mr. Chair, the perpetration of atrocities by one of the participating States in this Council is an affront to this entire organization and every single principle it represents. The paid apologists of the regime that commits these horrors would have us believe that the people of Ukraine are doing this to themselves. But we have facts, and not just facts but evidence, on our side.
Let us examine some of the details. The experts noted that photographic and video evidence appears to show “that Russian forces carried out targeted, organized killings of civilians in Bucha” who were “frequently found shot dead, hands tied behind their backs” (p. 38). They also cite the Kyiv regional police force, which reported that 900 civilian bodies had been discovered in the Kyiv region after the withdrawal of Russian forces (p. 38). According to the police, nearly 95 percent were “simply executed” (p. 38). If that were not abhorrent enough, allow me to quote at length this passage from the report on Russia’s makeshift torture chambers to give you a sense of what the victims of these crimes went through:
“A series of torture chambers separated by concrete walls were discovered in a summer camp in Bucha. At the front, there was a room that appeared to be used for executions, with bullet holes in the walls. The following room contained two chairs, an empty jug, and a wooden plank. The Russians had brought in two metal bedsprings and leaned them against the wall in another. The tableaus suggested to Ukrainian investigators that prisoners were tortured here: tied to the bedsprings and interrogated; strapped to the plank and waterboarded. In that chamber, five dead men dressed in civilian clothes were discovered. They were covered with burns, bruises, and lacerations. Also, in Zabuchchya, a village in the Bucha district, 18 mutilated bodies of murdered men, women, and children were discovered in a basement: some had their ears cut off, while others had their teeth pulled out” (p. 38-9).
Colleagues, this report was harrowing to read. The scale of Russia’s atrocities is vast. For example, the mission cited “abundant” reports of women and girls being raped and sexually abused by Russia’s armed forces (p. 90). The report mentions the case of 23-year-old Karina Yershova in Bucha who was abducted, raped, tortured, and finally shot dead by Russian troops. The report also highlights a report by Commissioner for Human Rights Denisova that 25 girls aged 14 to 24 were kept in a basement in Bucha and gang-raped by Russian troops, resulting in nine becoming pregnant (p. 91). The report also states that a one-year-old boy was sexually abused and a 78-year-old woman was raped by Russian troops (p. 94).
The report documented that Russian troops in Bucha engaged in “systemic” looting “from the displaced, deceased, and those still in the city” (p. 29). Many of the items were then marketed by Russian troops at bazaars set up in Belarus to sell the looted goods: “Washing machines, dishwashers, refrigerators, jewelry, automobiles, bicycles, motorcycles, dishes, carpets, works of art, children’s toys, and cosmetics are examples of such items” (p. 29).
The report underscores that mass forcible transfers of civilians from occupied territory to the territory of the occupying power are prohibited under the 1949 Geneva Conventions and the practice is considered a war crime (p. 31). Yet despite this clear prohibition, the report notes that more than 1.3 million Ukrainian civilians are reported to have been deported against their will to Russia, including more than 200,000 children (p. 72). The report cites the Mariupol mayor’s description of how these deportations are carried out: “At night, a man with a gun entered the shelter, claiming it was an evacuation. People who had been in the shelter for about 20 days were let out, put in cars, and driven somewhere, only to realize they had been taken somewhere out of Ukraine. They were then loaded onto trains and transported to the Russian Federation’s hinterland” (p. 30).
The report provides evidence that tens of thousands of civilians are being detained at “filtration centers” and then transported to detention places in Russia or the so-called Donetsk and Luhansk People’s Republics. Many of them are then held incommunicado, have no contact with their families, and are subject to various forms of mistreatment. The mission notes that these centers, such as the Bezimenne center in Donetsk region, serve to “filter, on unclear grounds, individuals seeking to leave besieged cities or other dangerous areas” and that the filtration process involves “harsh interrogation and humiliating body inspection.” Those who pass through the filtration are “often transferred, with their consent or without it, to Russian territory” (p. 108). The experts note that they have “no doubts that such practices violate international human rights law and may amount to a crime against humanity or a war crime” (p. 30, 72). The mission in fact documents “a relatively consistent pattern of behavior on the side of the Russian Federation, when the military occupation of a certain area is followed by abductions, interrogations, mistreatment and sometimes killings of important public figures, such as mayors or local journalists.” (p. 71-2)
Russia is not only waging war on its neighbor but reportedly forcing some Ukrainian citizens to fight against their own country. The mission reported conscription was imposed on all local men between the age of 18 and 65 in areas under Russian control in the Donbas as well as of the oblasts of Kharkiv, Kherson, and Sumy. Residents report that men with no military experience are regularly “plucked from the streets and immediately sent to the front” (p. 31). The mission also reported the use of non-combatants, including children, as human shields, contrary to international humanitarian law. For example, Russia’s soldiers reportedly used over 300 Ukrainian civilians as human shields and held them captive for 25 days in March in the basement of Yahidne School, where a major Russian military camp was located (p. 40).
The report notes that the Ukrainian Defense Ministry accused Russia’s forces of stealing “hundreds of thousands of tons of grain” from storage facilities in temporarily occupied parts of Ukraine and transported it to Russia (p. 29). The experts found that these acts “amount to violations of [international humanitarian law] and [international human rights law] and must be properly investigated” (p. 82). The UN World Food Program has warned grain theft could exacerbate global hunger (p. 29) and has called for the immediate opening of the Black Sea ports to allow critical food from Ukraine reaching people facing food insecurity in other countries where millions are on the brink (p. 55). Vulnerable populations across the world will suffer as a result of Russia’s abuses in Ukraine.
Children have of course been killed as well, as we have documented in this Council previously. Per the report, “in Bucha alone, 31 children under the age of 18 were killed and 19 wounded, according to local authorities” (p. 93). The report cites the region’s chief prosecutor saying that “all children were killed or injured deliberately, since Russia’s soldiers deliberately shot at evacuating cars that had the signs CHILDREN and white fabric tied to them, and they deliberately shot at the homes of civilians” (p. 93). Some children witnessed executions of their parents, relatives and friends, with impacts that will last for generations (p. 93). And on top of this the mission relayed reports that “approximately 2,000 children from various orphanages and children’s institutions” have been “purportedly transferred to Russia, even though they have living relatives and were in the institutions only for medical care” (p. 95).
The report also elaborates on the weapons Russia has used and how they have been employed, noting that “the Russian invasion has resulted in unnecessary and disproportionate harm to civilians due to the Russian military carrying out both deliberate attacks against civilian targets and indiscriminate attacks in densely populated areas in manifest disregard of the principle of distinction.” The report also notes that Russia’s forces have employed cluster munitions and used explosive weapons such as air-dropped bombs, missiles, heavy artillery shells, and multiple launch rockets in populated areas (p. 58).
https://osce.usmission.gov/response-to-moscow-mechanism-report-on-ukraine/
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BRR.
"Reports" from where?
And of course you won't hear of any reduction in shelling if you get your info from Russian MoD Telegram accounts.
Sadly Zelensky is still crying too much to make his latest macho vid announcing the destruction of his US weapons and his call to arms of Ukraine women to add their bodies to the piles of men. Der.... of course western sources won't be saying it! I said there were reports, and in this war it's v difficult to confirm much, well not uness you buy western or Russian propaganda. Are you sure they are still all in operation?
The shelling - if it's less then why is Russia advancing. Despite Wilt's mate saying how there is little/no change in the front line, Russia appears to be in Siversk now. The western maps update very slowly, often several days behind. The evidence in that is following various sources and seeing the slow catch up.
Are the HIMARS causing problems? Of course they are. They probably have hit several key targets, and no doubt ammo dumps are part of that. Is Russia hunting down the HIMARS? Of course it is. The US sent 8, promised 4 more. Will that be enough? 12 weapons? How many missiles? Well we'll see.
-
Did you not read the posts in that link - that detail the reduction in Russian shelling!!!
As I said above, he also claims there has been no change in the front line. He's wrong.
Can't you see how much effort is put into pro western propaganda? The US is fighting this proxy war with the aim of weakening Russia. This is effectivey a war between Russia and the US, supported by NATO countries. Ukraine people are the cannon fodder. It's sick.
-
NNK - sure, if proven, and some of this is, it is terrible. I assume you noticed how there wasn't anything pointing to Ukraine attrocities?
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NNK - sure, if proven, and some of this is, it is terrible. I assume you noticed how there wasn't anything pointing to Ukraine attrocities?
Of course I noticed. The report was specifically called for in light of the atrocities being carried out by Russian troops.
https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/vienna-international-organisations/moscow-mechanism-invoked-45-osce-participating_en?s=66
The report could have, of course, found no evidence of such atrocities; it didn’t, which should tell you something. The link I included in my earlier post was to the full report. It makes for very grim reading.
However, I’m sure that any similar transgressions by Ukrainian troops will emerge fully in due course, though I doubt very much they will be of the same scale and nature as those highlighted in that report.
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NNK - sure, if proven, and some of this is, it is terrible. I assume you noticed how there wasn't anything pointing to Ukraine attrocities?
Of course I noticed. The report was specifically called for in light of the atrocities being carried out by Russian troops.
https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/vienna-international-organisations/moscow-mechanism-invoked-45-osce-participating_en?s=66
The report could have, of course, found no evidence of such atrocities; it didn’t, which should tell you something. The link I included in my earlier post was to the full report. It makes for very grim reading.
However, I’m sure that any similar transgressions by Ukrainian troops will emerge fully in due course, though I doubt very much they will be of the same scale and nature as those highlighted in that report.
I doubt it. You don't hear much about allied 'war crimes' in WW2 and afterwards but they must have happened. The victors write the history books...
-
NNK - sure, if proven, and some of this is, it is terrible. I assume you noticed how there wasn't anything pointing to Ukraine attrocities?
Of course I noticed. The report was specifically called for in light of the atrocities being carried out by Russian troops.
https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/vienna-international-organisations/moscow-mechanism-invoked-45-osce-participating_en?s=66
The report could have, of course, found no evidence of such atrocities; it didn’t, which should tell you something. The link I included in my earlier post was to the full report. It makes for very grim reading.
However, I’m sure that any similar transgressions by Ukrainian troops will emerge fully in due course, though I doubt very much they will be of the same scale and nature as those highlighted in that report.
I doubt it. You don't hear much about allied 'war crimes' in WW2 and afterwards but they must have happened. The victors write the history books...
You're BRR's neighbour and I demand my ₤5
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BRR.
&quot;Reports&quot; from where?
And of course you won't hear of any reduction in shelling if you get your info from Russian MoD Telegram accounts.
Sadly Zelensky is still crying too much to make his latest macho vid announcing the destruction of his US weapons and his call to arms of Ukraine women to add their bodies to the piles of men. Der.... of course western sources won't be saying it! I said there were reports, and in this war it's v difficult to confirm much, well not uness you buy western or Russian propaganda. Are you sure they are still all in operation?
The shelling - if it's less then why is Russia advancing. Despite Wilt's mate saying how there is little/no change in the front line, Russia appears to be in Siversk now. The western maps update very slowly, often several days behind. The evidence in that is following various sources and seeing the slow catch up.
Are the HIMARS causing problems? Of course they are. They probably have hit several key targets, and no doubt ammo dumps are part of that. Is Russia hunting down the HIMARS? Of course it is. The US sent 8, promised 4 more. Will that be enough? 12 weapons? How many missiles? Well we'll see.
So. Reports from where?
-
Did you not read the posts in that link - that detail the reduction in Russian shelling!!!
As I said above, he also claims there has been no change in the front line. He's wrong.
Can't you see how much effort is put into pro western propaganda? The US is fighting this proxy war with the aim of weakening Russia. This is effectivey a war between Russia and the US, supported by NATO countries. Ukraine people are the cannon fodder. It's sick.
This is a war against an imperialist fascist dictator who has invaded a neighbouring smaller country intent on wiping it off the map.
Full stop.
-
Did you not read the posts in that link - that detail the reduction in Russian shelling!!!
As I said above, he also claims there has been no change in the front line. He's wrong.
Can't you see how much effort is put into pro western propaganda? The US is fighting this proxy war with the aim of weakening Russia. This is effectivey a war between Russia and the US, supported by NATO countries. Ukraine people are the cannon fodder. It's sick.
This is a war against an imperialist fascist dictator who has invaded a neighbouring smaller country intent on wiping it off the map.
Full stop.
Is it your need to wave the flag, get into an us v them, solace in the security your masters are giving you? Coz you know that's all BS. Or just not being capable of seeing the well evidenced bigger picture and history? And that is surprising as it's clear as day... though not in what you are choosing to read.
It was orchestrated by both sides in different ways. The US has been aiming for this scenario for decades. Russia has been waiting for the chance to take Ukraine, and was handed the opportunity.
The US/NATO thought, and still thinks, it would be able to weaken Russia, possibly to the point of collapse, or maybe instill one if it's usual catastrophic regime changes - which it did do in Ukraine. Russia thought otherwise, and took up the challange.
The support for this from the US, and ther NATO countries, public is steadily decreasing. Russia may weaken, or maybe will switch to a more full on war footing, who knows. From the evidence on the ground, ie the Russian advances, it's fairly clear Putin is in control. Zelensky is playing his role well, he is an actor, and squeezing all possible out of what is available to him. How long can he keep doing this, how long will the Western Ukraines support him? A trip to the east to be left unsupported by weapons, and to be maimed or killed isn't looking good on the scales of choices. No one wants to be cannon fodder for the elite thugs in control.
Meanwhile, both sides are responsible for the death of Ukrainians - something neither sides are bothered about as is seen in their histories.
Yet you persist in dealing out the #billyblinkers line.
-
BRR.
&amp;quot;Reports&amp;quot; from where?
And of course you won't hear of any reduction in shelling if you get your info from Russian MoD Telegram accounts.
Sadly Zelensky is still crying too much to make his latest macho vid announcing the destruction of his US weapons and his call to arms of Ukraine women to add their bodies to the piles of men. Der.... of course western sources won't be saying it! I said there were reports, and in this war it's v difficult to confirm much, well not uness you buy western or Russian propaganda. Are you sure they are still all in operation?
The shelling - if it's less then why is Russia advancing. Despite Wilt's mate saying how there is little/no change in the front line, Russia appears to be in Siversk now. The western maps update very slowly, often several days behind. The evidence in that is following various sources and seeing the slow catch up.
Are the HIMARS causing problems? Of course they are. They probably have hit several key targets, and no doubt ammo dumps are part of that. Is Russia hunting down the HIMARS? Of course it is. The US sent 8, promised 4 more. Will that be enough? 12 weapons? How many missiles? Well we'll see.
So. Reports from where?
Make an effort mate. What do you think is happening?
-
BRR
It's really simple.
You vehemently said you'd seen reports that X was happening.
I asked you where those reports were.
You went off like a Claymore on a uncoordinated rant about anything but reports.
I asked you where the reports were.
You tell me I'm not keeping up.
I knew there was a reason why I took a decision 35 years back to not discuss topics with the Far Left/Right.
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BRR
It's really simple.
You vehemently said you'd seen reports that X was happening.
I asked you where those reports were.
You went off like a Claymore on a uncoordinated rant about anything but reports.
I asked you where the reports were.
You tell me I'm not keeping up.
I knew there was a reason why I took a decision 35 years back to not discuss topics with the Far Left/Right.
BST - use google.
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BRR
I'm interested in the reports that YOU have seen.
You HAVE seen reports I take it? So you know where they are. Why not share them?
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Did you not read the posts in that link - that detail the reduction in Russian shelling!!!
As I said above, he also claims there has been no change in the front line. He's wrong.
Can't you see how much effort is put into pro western propaganda? The US is fighting this proxy war with the aim of weakening Russia. This is effectivey a war between Russia and the US, supported by NATO countries. Ukraine people are the cannon fodder. It's sick.
This is a war against an imperialist fascist dictator who has invaded a neighbouring smaller country intent on wiping it off the map.
Full stop.
Is it your need to wave the flag, get into an us v them, solace in the security your masters are giving you? Coz you know that's all BS. Or just not being capable of seeing the well evidenced bigger picture and history? And that is surprising as it's clear as day... though not in what you are choosing to read.
It was orchestrated by both sides in different ways. The US has been aiming for this scenario for decades. Russia has been waiting for the chance to take Ukraine, and was handed the opportunity.
The US/NATO thought, and still thinks, it would be able to weaken Russia, possibly to the point of collapse, or maybe instill one if it's usual catastrophic regime changes - which it did do in Ukraine. Russia thought otherwise, and took up the challange.
The support for this from the US, and ther NATO countries, public is steadily decreasing. Russia may weaken, or maybe will switch to a more full on war footing, who knows. From the evidence on the ground, ie the Russian advances, it's fairly clear Putin is in control. Zelensky is playing his role well, he is an actor, and squeezing all possible out of what is available to him. How long can he keep doing this, how long will the Western Ukraines support him? A trip to the east to be left unsupported by weapons, and to be maimed or killed isn't looking good on the scales of choices. No one wants to be cannon fodder for the elite thugs in control.
Meanwhile, both sides are responsible for the death of Ukrainians - something neither sides are bothered about as is seen in their histories.
Yet you persist in dealing out the #billyblinkers line.
I think for myself - enough of your Russian propoganda b*****ks
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BRR
I'm interested in the reports that YOU have seen.
You HAVE seen reports I take it? So you know where they are. Why not share them?
You're not interested in the reports I saw, jeeez give yourself a break.
I've seen loads of reports, nothing proven. Just reports. Even the report that Russia has aquired an intact HIMAR to gp with the French whatsits it also "aquired", all now in Russia being examined. That goes with the story of Ukraine officers/gangsters making a deal with the Russians, ie selling it to them, and then retreating "leaving it behind". Probs not true, but similar is highly likely to have happened here and there.
Meanwhile, no HIMARS destroyed you think? Or you don't know?
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I think for myself - enough of your Russian propoganda b*****ks
:laugh:
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BRR
I'm interested in the reports that YOU have seen.
You HAVE seen reports I take it? So you know where they are. Why not share them?
You're not interested in the reports I saw, jeeez give yourself a break.
I've seen loads of reports, nothing proven. Just reports. Even the report that Russia has aquired an intact HIMAR to gp with the French whatsits it also "aquired", all now in Russia being examined. That goes with the story of Ukraine officers/gangsters making a deal with the Russians, ie selling it to them, and then retreating "leaving it behind". Probs not true, but similar is highly likely to have happened here and there.
Meanwhile, no HIMARS destroyed you think? Or you don't know?
Just post a link to the reports you've seen. Why on earth would you not do that?
See, the only reports I have seen of HIMARS being destroyed come directly from the Russian MoD who boast of "Precision missile strikes" doing the job. But we've heard of these claims of "precision missile strikes" surgically taking ut weapons stores before haven't we? When in fact they were lobbing anti-tank missiles with a "we might hit the right suburb" precision, and dstroying apartment blocks and supermarkets.
So we take those claims with a pinch of salt don't we?
So, you see, I need a bit of help here because I've looked myself and I can't find anything but these Russian MoD claims.
I assume you have something more trustworthy? So why not post it?
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BRR
I'm interested in the reports that YOU have seen.
You HAVE seen reports I take it? So you know where they are. Why not share them?
You're not interested in the reports I saw, jeeez give yourself a break.
I've seen loads of reports, nothing proven. Just reports. Even the report that Russia has aquired an intact HIMAR to gp with the French whatsits it also &quot;aquired&quot;, all now in Russia being examined. That goes with the story of Ukraine officers/gangsters making a deal with the Russians, ie selling it to them, and then retreating &quot;leaving it behind&quot;. Probs not true, but similar is highly likely to have happened here and there.
Meanwhile, no HIMARS destroyed you think? Or you don't know?
Just post a link to the reports you've seen. Why on earth would you not do that?
See, the only reports I have seen of HIMARS being destroyed come directly from the Russian MoD who boast of "Precision missile strikes" doing the job. But we've heard of these claims of "precision missile strikes" surgically taking ut weapons stores before haven't we? When in fact they were lobbing anti-tank missiles with a "we might hit the right suburb" precision, and dstroying apartment blocks and supermarkets.
So we take those claims with a pinch of salt don't we?
So, you see, I need a bit of help here because I've looked myself and I can't find anything but these Russian MoD claims.
I assume you have something more trustworthy? So why not post it?
Just google, that's what I did. Loads of links. If all you found are what you say then your googling needs some work, or maybe you're blissfully caught behind a NATO censorship fiewall like most others seem to be. Most links acknowledging that it's not known. I just said reports, how difficult is that to grasp?
Of course Russia has precision weapons for long distance strikes. It won't use the best for everything. HIMARS, they will get the best Russia can offer.
Your comments about supermarkets etc are daft, you know you're agan using rhetoric and BS. Yes there was damage. Was it random like you say - give it a rest General MacArthur.
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BRR
There you go again with this weird behaviour! Spending dozens of key clicks telling me what I ought to be able to find, when ctrl-c and ctrl-z could copy and paste the links that you've found. How very odd that you won't do it.
Almost as if...
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BRR
There you go again with this weird behaviour! Spending dozens of key clicks telling me what I ought to be able to find, when ctrl-c and ctrl-z could copy and paste the links that you've found. How very odd that you won't do it.
Almost as if...
I didn't save the links. What's with your inability to google?
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I've Googled plenty. I've not seen a single "report" that isn't based on a statement from the Russian MoD.
So I've no option but to conclude that you are basing your posts on reports from the Russian MoD. Which would fit a pattern. You read reports by the Russian MoD and repeat them unfiltered. Frequently.
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Did you not read the posts in that link - that detail the reduction in Russian shelling!!!
As I said above, he also claims there has been no change in the front line. He's wrong.
Can't you see how much effort is put into pro western propaganda? The US is fighting this proxy war with the aim of weakening Russia. This is effectivey a war between Russia and the US, supported by NATO countries. Ukraine people are the cannon fodder. It's sick.
This is a war against an imperialist fascist dictator who has invaded a neighbouring smaller country intent on wiping it off the map.
Full stop.
Is it your need to wave the flag, get into an us v them, solace in the security your masters are giving you? Coz you know that's all BS. Or just not being capable of seeing the well evidenced bigger picture and history? And that is surprising as it's clear as day... though not in what you are choosing to read.
It was orchestrated by both sides in different ways. The US has been aiming for this scenario for decades. Russia has been waiting for the chance to take Ukraine, and was handed the opportunity.
The US/NATO thought, and still thinks, it would be able to weaken Russia, possibly to the point of collapse, or maybe instill one if it's usual catastrophic regime changes - which it did do in Ukraine. Russia thought otherwise, and took up the challange.
The support for this from the US, and ther NATO countries, public is steadily decreasing. Russia may weaken, or maybe will switch to a more full on war footing, who knows. From the evidence on the ground, ie the Russian advances, it's fairly clear Putin is in control. Zelensky is playing his role well, he is an actor, and squeezing all possible out of what is available to him. How long can he keep doing this, how long will the Western Ukraines support him? A trip to the east to be left unsupported by weapons, and to be maimed or killed isn't looking good on the scales of choices. No one wants to be cannon fodder for the elite thugs in control.
Meanwhile, both sides are responsible for the death of Ukrainians - something neither sides are bothered about as is seen in their histories.
Yet you persist in dealing out the #billyblinkers line.
Well said, but you're wasting your breath on here. In the main most seem happy to go along with the line they are being fed by the Western Governments and MSM who never tell lies.
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Did you not read the posts in that link - that detail the reduction in Russian shelling!!!
As I said above, he also claims there has been no change in the front line. He's wrong.
Can't you see how much effort is put into pro western propaganda? The US is fighting this proxy war with the aim of weakening Russia. This is effectivey a war between Russia and the US, supported by NATO countries. Ukraine people are the cannon fodder. It's sick.
This is a war against an imperialist fascist dictator who has invaded a neighbouring smaller country intent on wiping it off the map.
Full stop.
Is it your need to wave the flag, get into an us v them, solace in the security your masters are giving you? Coz you know that's all BS. Or just not being capable of seeing the well evidenced bigger picture and history? And that is surprising as it's clear as day... though not in what you are choosing to read.
It was orchestrated by both sides in different ways. The US has been aiming for this scenario for decades. Russia has been waiting for the chance to take Ukraine, and was handed the opportunity.
The US/NATO thought, and still thinks, it would be able to weaken Russia, possibly to the point of collapse, or maybe instill one if it's usual catastrophic regime changes - which it did do in Ukraine. Russia thought otherwise, and took up the challange.
The support for this from the US, and ther NATO countries, public is steadily decreasing. Russia may weaken, or maybe will switch to a more full on war footing, who knows. From the evidence on the ground, ie the Russian advances, it's fairly clear Putin is in control. Zelensky is playing his role well, he is an actor, and squeezing all possible out of what is available to him. How long can he keep doing this, how long will the Western Ukraines support him? A trip to the east to be left unsupported by weapons, and to be maimed or killed isn't looking good on the scales of choices. No one wants to be cannon fodder for the elite thugs in control.
Meanwhile, both sides are responsible for the death of Ukrainians - something neither sides are bothered about as is seen in their histories.
Yet you persist in dealing out the #billyblinkers line.
Well said, but you're wasting your breath on here. In the main most seem happy to go along with the line they are being fed by the Western Governments and MSM who never tell lies.
If you and BRR are wasting your breath on here, you are both quite entitled to do one and leave us to our ignorant bliss. And I’m sure I’m not the only one, me hoping you do!
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Did you not read the posts in that link - that detail the reduction in Russian shelling!!!
As I said above, he also claims there has been no change in the front line. He's wrong.
Can't you see how much effort is put into pro western propaganda? The US is fighting this proxy war with the aim of weakening Russia. This is effectivey a war between Russia and the US, supported by NATO countries. Ukraine people are the cannon fodder. It's sick.
This is a war against an imperialist fascist dictator who has invaded a neighbouring smaller country intent on wiping it off the map.
Full stop.
Is it your need to wave the flag, get into an us v them, solace in the security your masters are giving you? Coz you know that's all BS. Or just not being capable of seeing the well evidenced bigger picture and history? And that is surprising as it's clear as day... though not in what you are choosing to read.
It was orchestrated by both sides in different ways. The US has been aiming for this scenario for decades. Russia has been waiting for the chance to take Ukraine, and was handed the opportunity.
The US/NATO thought, and still thinks, it would be able to weaken Russia, possibly to the point of collapse, or maybe instill one if it's usual catastrophic regime changes - which it did do in Ukraine. Russia thought otherwise, and took up the challange.
The support for this from the US, and ther NATO countries, public is steadily decreasing. Russia may weaken, or maybe will switch to a more full on war footing, who knows. From the evidence on the ground, ie the Russian advances, it's fairly clear Putin is in control. Zelensky is playing his role well, he is an actor, and squeezing all possible out of what is available to him. How long can he keep doing this, how long will the Western Ukraines support him? A trip to the east to be left unsupported by weapons, and to be maimed or killed isn't looking good on the scales of choices. No one wants to be cannon fodder for the elite thugs in control.
Meanwhile, both sides are responsible for the death of Ukrainians - something neither sides are bothered about as is seen in their histories.
Yet you persist in dealing out the #billyblinkers line.
Well said, but you're wasting your breath on here. In the main most seem happy to go along with the line they are being fed by the Western Governments and MSM who never tell lies.
If you and BRR are wasting your breath on here, you are both quite entitled to do one and leave us to our ignorant bliss. And I’m sure I’m not the only one, me hoping you do!
Some one needs to speak the truth that people choose not to see. Maybe if one person can see through the lies it will be worth it.
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Christ alive. AL as the Saviour of Truth.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62231936
It really is laughable.
Nope, we've changed our minds, We're going to nick more of your country so you won't threaten our territory!!!
Err, you've got to have borders with other countries!!
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The truth
Russia confirms today that its objectives have officiallyy changed from 'a special operation' in Dontesk and Luhansk to full annexation of both Kherson and Zaporizhia. With a further possibility 'to expand the invasion beyond those areas'.
https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1549729999900622848
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Yeah but. They are only doing that so they can sort out the Ukrainian long range missile systems.
That'll be the ones that BRR's Kremlin mates tell us they can already sort out with precision strikes will it? Or is it the ones they tell BRR aren't being sent?
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Is this a proxy war by the US/NATO (or NATO countries if you want to be pedantic) or not?
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I've Googled plenty. I've not seen a single "report" that isn't based on a statement from the Russian MoD.
So I've no option but to conclude that you are basing your posts on reports from the Russian MoD. Which would fit a pattern. You read reports by the Russian MoD and repeat them unfiltered. Frequently.
Yes, it does appear that those reports essentially go back to Russian MoD sources, I never suggested otherwise. Likewise the denials go back to Ukraine and US sources.
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Right. Only took two days to get there.
Who mentioned denials? When you're addressing claims from a source that has demonstrably lied over and over again, there's no onus on anyone to deny it. Better to just work in the assumption it's another lie, unless there's evidence to the contrary.
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Right. Only took two days to get there.
Who mentioned denials? When you're addressing claims from a source that has demonstrably lied over and over again, there's no onus on anyone to deny it. Better to just work in the assumption it's another lie, unless there's evidence to the contrary.
Ha, I said google, you did, and guess what, you found exactly what I said, reports. Well done ;)
Ukraine could get a lot of kudos, and future supplies, by giving evidence o their continued functioning. They haven't. But yeah, lets move on...
Proxy war or not? US and gang stirred this up over decades or just fell upon some random bad guy agression?
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And with that, I really AM cutting these discussions. Utterly pointless.
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Ooooh! When the going gets tough.... bye kidda!
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Is putin slowly coming around to negotiation??? still a bit early to call but if he signs off on that grain deal and that he has just cracked opened the gas valve a tad could show that russia and himself are under strain from the war and sanctions .......
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Is putin slowly coming around to negotiation??? still a bit early to call but if he signs off on that grain deal and that he has just cracked opened the gas valve a tad could show that russia and himself are under strain from the war and sanctions .......
I wouldn't get too excited about Nordstream. It's only 40% operational, the turbine that's been in Canada isn't back in play yet, and there are a lot more planned maintenance issues in the coming months.
Meanwhile, Gazprom's rebranding in the UK is imminent. Been told could well be announced next week.
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Is putin slowly coming around to negotiation??? still a bit early to call but if he signs off on that grain deal and that he has just cracked opened the gas valve a tad could show that russia and himself are under strain from the war and sanctions .......
Is it Russia or is it other parties that are more coming around to negatiation?
If Russia is under strain form the war, and west media is pushing that for obvious reasons, then where exactly is that strain and how intense, acute, is it? Would releasing some of the grain be that beneficial to them over and above what it would be for Ukraine, and more specifically the west in general? I suspect they'd have to have some sizable payback in any negotiation - what would that be? Will we ever be told?
If Russia isn't under that much strain, then the payback to them would be even larger.
From what I'm seeing, the main benefit to Russia is the lifting of sanctions by those countries that have chosen to have them. I imagine that will cost the west, and us ordinary folk. More price rises.
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Indeed take this with a pinch of salt, though if true its significant. From our friends, the Russian MoD:
▫️"The enemy is suffering considerable losses of armament delivered by Western countries. From July 5 to 20, 4 launching ramps and 1 reloading vehicle for the U.S.-manufactured HIMARS MRLS delivered to Ukraine were eliminated by high-precision ground- and air-based armament. Among them, 2 launching ramps were destroyed near Malotaranovka, 1 HIMARS and 1 reloading vehicle was destroyed near Krasnoarmeysk, as well as 4th launching ramp at the eastern suburb of Konstantinovka (Donetsk People's Republic)"
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Why Russia's economy is crumbling.
Far from being ineffective or disappointing, as many have argued, international sanctions and voluntary business retreats have exerted a devastating effect over Russia’s economy. The deteriorating economy has served as a powerful if underappreciated complement to the deteriorating political landscape facing Putin.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/07/22/russia-economy-sanctions-myths-ruble-business/
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Ukraine’s military destroys Russian ammunition depot in southern Ukraine.
Operational Command “South” said it destroyed a Russian multiple rocket launcher, three armored personnel carriers, two heavy artillery, and six military vehicles. They also killed 93 Russian troops.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1550627320188248066
This takes the Ukraine Armed Forces estimates of Russian losses to date to include:
39,240 troops
1.708 tanks
2.802 supply vehicles
3,929 APV's
864 artillery systems
253 MLR's
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1550735629704740864
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Ukraine’s military destroys Russian ammunition depot in southern Ukraine.
Operational Command “South” said it destroyed a Russian multiple rocket launcher, three armored personnel carriers, two heavy artillery, and six military vehicles. They also killed 93 Russian troops.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1550627320188248066
This takes the Ukraine Armed Forces estimates of Russian losses to date to include:
39,240 troops
1.708 tanks
2.802 supply vehicles
3,929 APV's
864 artillery systems
253 MLR's
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1550735629704740864
I think the "losses" on both sides figures for personel includes injured.
Notable that Ukraine tends to give generalised claims of numbers whereas Russia specifies the region and the TBG effected.
How either can claim to know of numbers of personel effected except in a few specific incidences is beyond me.
Whilst the Donbas situation slowly heads one direction, the sitiation in the south west is interesting with Ukraine talking up it's imminent assault there, and at the same time Russia appears to be gathering forces to attack towards Mykoaiv - something of a showdown.
-
Ukraine’s military destroys Russian ammunition depot in southern Ukraine.
Operational Command “South” said it destroyed a Russian multiple rocket launcher, three armored personnel carriers, two heavy artillery, and six military vehicles. They also killed 93 Russian troops.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1550627320188248066
This takes the Ukraine Armed Forces estimates of Russian losses to date to include:
39,240 troops
1.708 tanks
2.802 supply vehicles
3,929 APV's
864 artillery systems
253 MLR's
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1550735629704740864
I think the "losses" on both sides figures for personel includes injured.
Notable that Ukraine tends to give generalised claims of numbers whereas Russia specifies the region and the TBG effected.
How either can claim to know of numbers of personel effected except in a few specific incidences is beyond me.
Whilst the Donbas situation slowly heads one direction, the sitiation in the south west is interesting with Ukraine talking up it's imminent assault there, and at the same time Russia appears to be gathering forces to attack towards Mykoaiv - something of a showdown.
No one is interested in your Putin love in anymore
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No one is interested in your Putin love in anymore
Hey, just keep believing the propaganda you're reading and watching. There are two sides to this, and yes propaganda on both sides, but it seems you're simply sucking up to one side. Why is that?
And try speaking for yourself rather than making out you speak for everyone. Evidently a fallacy.
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BST, Wilts - HIMARS. Seems pretty sound to me.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO-Qo5qw4U0
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22nd July - Russia concludes historic humanitarian peace agreement to allow grain shipments to leave the port of Odessa to ease acute food shortage in third world countries.
23rd Juy - Russia fires missile into Odessa port
https://twitter.com/Reevellp/status/1550817931059232769?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
False flag? NATO? 'Both sides'
You get into bed with a liar that's all you get. Lied to.
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22nd July - Russia concludes historic humanitarian peace agreement to allow grain shipments to leave the port of Odessa to ease acute food shortage in third world countries.
23rd Juy - Russia fires missile into Odessa port
https://twitter.com/Reevellp/status/1550817931059232769?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
False flag? NATO? 'Both sides'
You get into bed with a liar that's all you get. Lied to.
The Secretary General of the UN was almost in tears yesterday at the signing of this treaty. Said it was the most important agreement he'd ever facilitated. Because without it, 400 million people in the Middle East and North Africa were at risk of famine.
It's THAT important.
Then within 24 hours, that Kitson in the Kremlin sends this message. It's obvious what he's saying. "This is what I think of the deal I've just signed. This is what I'll do if I get pressurised by you lot. Because at heart, I am a moral abomination and I WILL use the threat of famine as a weapon, just like Stalin did before me."
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22nd July - Russia concludes historic humanitarian peace agreement to allow grain shipments to leave the port of Odessa to ease acute food shortage in third world countries.
23rd Juy - Russia fires missile into Odessa port
https://twitter.com/Reevellp/status/1550817931059232769?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
False flag? NATO? 'Both sides'
You get into bed with a liar that's all you get. Lied to.
The Secretary General of the UN was almost in tears yesterday at the signing of this treaty. Said it was the most important agreement he'd ever facilitated. Because without it, 400 million people in the Middle East and North Africa were at risk of famine.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qb8W4Q2nvEM
Unless Ive missed something there I'm calling more Billy Bullshit, are you capable of telling the truth about anything anymore. #ForumBoris
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Happy to accept that I may be wrongly attri using this to Guterres. I heard someone say it on the radio last night and thought it was Guterres, but if I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
Thanks for pointing that out Ldr. The vehemence with which you did it is a tad disturbing, as the substantive points are correct [1] but if it helps you sleep at night to be convinced that I'm deliberately lying, then fill your boots.
[1] Guterres's under Sec Gen for Trade said on the R4 PM programme yesterday that 20 countries depended on Ukraine for 50% of their food imports. An American Prof of Crisis Relief said 400 million relied on Black Sea food imports. The UN Special Envoy said this deal was "unprecedented" and "extraordinary". All the substantive content is correct.
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22nd July - Russia concludes historic humanitarian peace agreement to allow grain shipments to leave the port of Odessa to ease acute food shortage in third world countries.
23rd Juy - Russia fires missile into Odessa port
https://twitter.com/Reevellp/status/1550817931059232769?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
False flag? NATO? 'Both sides'
You get into bed with a liar that's all you get. Lied to.
If it hit grain silos that would be bad, but what was hit? What was the target? Or are you just equating port with grain silo like western media, because that's simple weak flakey propaganda.
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Ukraine’s military destroys Russian ammunition depot in southern Ukraine.
Operational Command “South” said it destroyed a Russian multiple rocket launcher, three armored personnel carriers, two heavy artillery, and six military vehicles. They also killed 93 Russian troops.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1550627320188248066
This takes the Ukraine Armed Forces estimates of Russian losses to date to include:
39,240 troops
1.708 tanks
2.802 supply vehicles
3,929 APV's
864 artillery systems
253 MLR's
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1550735629704740864
Ukrainian losses? We don't seem to hear much about from western propaganda sources do we?
-
Ukraine’s military destroys Russian ammunition depot in southern Ukraine.
Operational Command “South” said it destroyed a Russian multiple rocket launcher, three armored personnel carriers, two heavy artillery, and six military vehicles. They also killed 93 Russian troops.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1550627320188248066
This takes the Ukraine Armed Forces estimates of Russian losses to date to include:
39,240 troops
1.708 tanks
2.802 supply vehicles
3,929 APV's
864 artillery systems
253 MLR's
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1550735629704740864
Ukrainian losses? We don't seem to hear much about from western propaganda sources do we?
Why would we and indeed why should we the west is supporting those that have been invaded not those that have invaded
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22nd July - Russia concludes historic humanitarian peace agreement to allow grain shipments to leave the port of Odessa to ease acute food shortage in third world countries.
23rd Juy - Russia fires missile into Odessa port
https://twitter.com/Reevellp/status/1550817931059232769?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
False flag? NATO? 'Both sides'
You get into bed with a liar that's all you get. Lied to.
If it hit grain silos that would be bad, but what was hit? What was the target? Or are you just equating port with grain silo like western media, because that's simple weak flakey propaganda.
No, I am equating lying with a liar. Putin said he would stop attacking Odessa - he attacked Odessa.
Putin said the troop movements in Belorus were just planned training and not a build up to invade Ukraine. He invaded Ukraine.
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Ukraine’s military destroys Russian ammunition depot in southern Ukraine.
Operational Command “South” said it destroyed a Russian multiple rocket launcher, three armored personnel carriers, two heavy artillery, and six military vehicles. They also killed 93 Russian troops.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1550627320188248066
This takes the Ukraine Armed Forces estimates of Russian losses to date to include:
39,240 troops
1.708 tanks
2.802 supply vehicles
3,929 APV's
864 artillery systems
253 MLR's
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1550735629704740864
Ukrainian losses? We don't seem to hear much about from western propaganda sources do we?
Why would we and indeed why should we the west is supporting those that have been invaded not those that have invaded
Don't you want to know?
-
Ukraine’s military destroys Russian ammunition depot in southern Ukraine.
Operational Command “South” said it destroyed a Russian multiple rocket launcher, three armored personnel carriers, two heavy artillery, and six military vehicles. They also killed 93 Russian troops.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1550627320188248066
This takes the Ukraine Armed Forces estimates of Russian losses to date to include:
39,240 troops
1.708 tanks
2.802 supply vehicles
3,929 APV's
864 artillery systems
253 MLR's
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1550735629704740864
Ukrainian losses? We don't seem to hear much about from western propaganda sources do we?
Why would we and indeed why should we the west is supporting those that have been invaded not those that have invaded
Don't you want to know?
Got to say I’m not overly interested in either side's losses as with each loss there is very likely someone’s death involved. But if I was to pick a side to whom I would be interested in seeing their losses, I’ve got to say that I would rather see the death or destruction of of an invader than I would of the invaded.
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Ukraine’s military destroys Russian ammunition depot in southern Ukraine.
Operational Command “South” said it destroyed a Russian multiple rocket launcher, three armored personnel carriers, two heavy artillery, and six military vehicles. They also killed 93 Russian troops.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1550627320188248066
This takes the Ukraine Armed Forces estimates of Russian losses to date to include:
39,240 troops
1.708 tanks
2.802 supply vehicles
3,929 APV's
864 artillery systems
253 MLR's
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1550735629704740864
Ukrainian losses? We don't seem to hear much about from western propaganda sources do we?
Why would we and indeed why should we the west is supporting those that have been invaded not those that have invaded
Don't you want to know?
Got to say I’m not overly interested in either side's losses as with each loss there is very likely someone’s death involved. But if I was to pick a side to whom I would be interested in seeing their losses, I’ve got to say that I would rather see the death or destruction of of an invader than I would of the invaded.
You would need to know if you want to know how long you can realistically carry on the fight until the inevitable happens.
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Invader v invaded - if it were only so simple. I've made my thoughts on that clear already. I also made my thoughts clear on regime change from external interference. Whilst the US and its friends make that a regular part of their worldwide "policing" the shit usually hits the fan, the case of Ukraine being up there with the worst messes.
#billyblinkersbrigade
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22nd July - Russia concludes historic humanitarian peace agreement to allow grain shipments to leave the port of Odessa to ease acute food shortage in third world countries.
23rd Juy - Russia fires missile into Odessa port
https://twitter.com/Reevellp/status/1550817931059232769?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
False flag? NATO? 'Both sides'
You get into bed with a liar that's all you get. Lied to.
If it hit grain silos that would be bad, but what was hit? What was the target? Or are you just equating port with grain silo like western media, because that's simple weak flakey propaganda.
No, I am equating lying with a liar. Putin said he would stop attacking Odessa - he attacked Odessa.
Putin said the troop movements in Belorus were just planned training and not a build up to invade Ukraine. He invaded Ukraine.
Did he say that about Odessa? I understood that military targets would be struck. If Ukraine has weapons, or military boats there, they are targets, surely?
Were grain exports hit?
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Invader v invaded - if it were only so simple. I've made my thoughts on that clear already. I also made my thoughts clear on regime change from external interference. Whilst the US and its friends make that a regular part of their worldwide "policing" the shit usually hits the fan, the case of Ukraine being up there with the worst messes.
#billyblinkersbrigade
Invader v invaded it is that simple, none of what is happening now would not be happening if Russia (the invader) hadn’t illegally invaded Ukraine (the invaded). Everything else is secondary to the fact that Russia (the invader) invaded.
#BRRPutinsMouthPiece
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22nd July - Russia concludes historic humanitarian peace agreement to allow grain shipments to leave the port of Odessa to ease acute food shortage in third world countries.
23rd Juy - Russia fires missile into Odessa port
https://twitter.com/Reevellp/status/1550817931059232769?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
False flag? NATO? 'Both sides'
You get into bed with a liar that's all you get. Lied to.
If it hit grain silos that would be bad, but what was hit? What was the target? Or are you just equating port with grain silo like western media, because that's simple weak flakey propaganda.
Two questions:
If you were a port worker working on the grain cargoes would you go to work if missiles (which might or might not be accurate) were flying anywhere around the port?
Second if you were a cargo ship owner, captain or insurer would you allow a ship to enter a port with missiles flying around
The obvious answers are no, so a grain deal would seem to be scuppered regardless of whether grain was hit. No-one has trust or belief in the Russians over this deal.
On the other hand interesting, if I read correctly, that Putin seems first to have denied it was Russian missiles but said he would launch an investigation, and now unusually the Russians have admitted it was them. Maybe a lower level commander made the decision which would be unusual. Doesn't change the effects though.
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22nd July - Russia concludes historic humanitarian peace agreement to allow grain shipments to leave the port of Odessa to ease acute food shortage in third world countries.
23rd Juy - Russia fires missile into Odessa port
https://twitter.com/Reevellp/status/1550817931059232769?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
False flag? NATO? 'Both sides'
You get into bed with a liar that's all you get. Lied to.
If it hit grain silos that would be bad, but what was hit? What was the target? Or are you just equating port with grain silo like western media, because that's simple weak flakey propaganda.
Two questions:
If you were a port worker working on the grain cargoes would you go to work if missiles (which might or might not be accurate) were flying anywhere around the port?
Second if you were a cargo ship owner, captain or insurer would you allow a ship to enter a port with missiles flying around
The obvious answers are no, so a grain deal would seem to be scuppered regardless of whether grain was hit. No-one has trust or belief in the Russians over this deal.
On the other hand interesting, if I read correctly, that Putin seems first to have denied it was Russian missiles but said he would launch an investigation, and now unusually the Russians have admitted it was them. Maybe a lower level commander made the decision which would be unusual. Doesn't change the effects though.
That's easy to explain Dutch. He denied it was a Russian missile until videos of a Russian missile came out (and they have probably recovered bits now) to prove he was wrong. Then when that lie has been debunked - come out with another one. It's what liars do - Johnson has made a career out of it.
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Invader v invaded - if it were only so simple. I've made my thoughts on that clear already. I also made my thoughts clear on regime change from external interference. Whilst the US and its friends make that a regular part of their worldwide "policing" the shit usually hits the fan, the case of Ukraine being up there with the worst messes.
#billyblinkersbrigade
Invader v invaded it is that simple, none of what is happening now would not be happening if Russia (the invader) hadn’t illegally invaded Ukraine (the invaded). Everything else is secondary to the fact that Russia (the invader) invaded.
#BRRPutinsMouthPiece
What were they supposed to do? Allow Ukraine to join NATO and have there forces sat on their doorstep? US/NATO/EU all share the responsibility for this. It's not a case of goodies v baddies.
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Invader v invaded - if it were only so simple. I've made my thoughts on that clear already. I also made my thoughts clear on regime change from external interference. Whilst the US and its friends make that a regular part of their worldwide &quot;policing&quot; the shit usually hits the fan, the case of Ukraine being up there with the worst messes.
#billyblinkersbrigade
Invader v invaded it is that simple, none of what is happening now would not be happening if Russia (the invader) hadn’t illegally invaded Ukraine (the invaded). Everything else is secondary to the fact that Russia (the invader) invaded.
#BRRPutinsMouthPiece
What were they supposed to do? Allow Ukraine to join NATO and have there forces sat on their doorstep? US/NATO/EU all share the responsibility for this. It's not a case of goodies v baddies.
Ukraine as a sovereign country can choose whoever they want to join, not be bullied by another country, Russia are paranoid
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Invader v invaded - if it were only so simple. I've made my thoughts on that clear already. I also made my thoughts clear on regime change from external interference. Whilst the US and its friends make that a regular part of their worldwide &quot;policing&quot; the shit usually hits the fan, the case of Ukraine being up there with the worst messes.
#billyblinkersbrigade
Invader v invaded it is that simple, none of what is happening now would not be happening if Russia (the invader) hadn’t illegally invaded Ukraine (the invaded). Everything else is secondary to the fact that Russia (the invader) invaded.
#BRRPutinsMouthPiece
What were they supposed to do? Allow Ukraine to join NATO and have there forces sat on their doorstep? US/NATO/EU all share the responsibility for this. It's not a case of goodies v baddies.
Ukraine as a sovereign country can choose whoever they want to join, not be bullied by another country, Russia are paranoid
A sovereign country? It's debatable if it should even be considered as such.
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Invader v invaded - if it were only so simple. I've made my thoughts on that clear already. I also made my thoughts clear on regime change from external interference. Whilst the US and its friends make that a regular part of their worldwide &amp;quot;policing&amp;quot; the shit usually hits the fan, the case of Ukraine being up there with the worst messes.
#billyblinkersbrigade
Invader v invaded it is that simple, none of what is happening now would not be happening if Russia (the invader) hadn’t illegally invaded Ukraine (the invaded). Everything else is secondary to the fact that Russia (the invader) invaded.
#BRRPutinsMouthPiece
What were they supposed to do? Allow Ukraine to join NATO and have there forces sat on their doorstep? US/NATO/EU all share the responsibility for this. It's not a case of goodies v baddies.
Ukraine as a sovereign country can choose whoever they want to join, not be bullied by another country, Russia are paranoid
A sovereign country? It's debatable if it should even be considered as such.
No it’s not debatable, it was a sovereign country in its own right, a country recognised by the UN. It was Russian (the invader) aggression against its neighbour, Ukraine (the invaded) that is the problem here. Sooner you and the rest of Putins mouth pieces realise and accept this the better for everyone, especially the sovereign country of Ukraine
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Invader v invaded - if it were only so simple. I've made my thoughts on that clear already. I also made my thoughts clear on regime change from external interference. Whilst the US and its friends make that a regular part of their worldwide &amp;quot;policing&amp;quot; the shit usually hits the fan, the case of Ukraine being up there with the worst messes.
#billyblinkersbrigade
Invader v invaded it is that simple, none of what is happening now would not be happening if Russia (the invader) hadn’t illegally invaded Ukraine (the invaded). Everything else is secondary to the fact that Russia (the invader) invaded.
#BRRPutinsMouthPiece
What were they supposed to do? Allow Ukraine to join NATO and have there forces sat on their doorstep? US/NATO/EU all share the responsibility for this. It's not a case of goodies v baddies.
Ukraine as a sovereign country can choose whoever they want to join, not be bullied by another country, Russia are paranoid
A sovereign country? It's debatable if it should even be considered as such.
No it’s not debatable, it was a sovereign country in its own right, a country recognised by the UN. It was Russian (the invader) aggression against its neighbour, Ukraine (the invaded) that is the problem here. Sooner you and the rest of Putins mouth pieces realise and accept this the better for everyone, especially the sovereign country of Ukraine
It would have been 'better for everyone' if the west hadn't instigated the over throw of the legitimate government.
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Invader v invaded - if it were only so simple. I've made my thoughts on that clear already. I also made my thoughts clear on regime change from external interference. Whilst the US and its friends make that a regular part of their worldwide &amp;amp;quot;policing&amp;amp;quot; the shit usually hits the fan, the case of Ukraine being up there with the worst messes.
#billyblinkersbrigade
Invader v invaded it is that simple, none of what is happening now would not be happening if Russia (the invader) hadn’t illegally invaded Ukraine (the invaded). Everything else is secondary to the fact that Russia (the invader) invaded.
#BRRPutinsMouthPiece
What were they supposed to do? Allow Ukraine to join NATO and have there forces sat on their doorstep? US/NATO/EU all share the responsibility for this. It's not a case of goodies v baddies.
Ukraine as a sovereign country can choose whoever they want to join, not be bullied by another country, Russia are paranoid
A sovereign country? It's debatable if it should even be considered as such.
No it’s not debatable, it was a sovereign country in its own right, a country recognised by the UN. It was Russian (the invader) aggression against its neighbour, Ukraine (the invaded) that is the problem here. Sooner you and the rest of Putins mouth pieces realise and accept this the better for everyone, especially the sovereign country of Ukraine
It would have been 'better for everyone' if the west hadn't instigated the over throw of the legitimate government.
Seems the Russians are trying to do the same now
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If it hit grain silos that would be bad, but what was hit? What was the target? Or are you just equating port with grain silo like western media, because that's simple weak flakey propaganda.
Two questions:
If you were a port worker working on the grain cargoes would you go to work if missiles (which might or might not be accurate) were flying anywhere around the port?
Second if you were a cargo ship owner, captain or insurer would you allow a ship to enter a port with missiles flying around
The obvious answers are no, so a grain deal would seem to be scuppered regardless of whether grain was hit. No-one has trust or belief in the Russians over this deal.
On the other hand interesting, if I read correctly, that Putin seems first to have denied it was Russian missiles but said he would launch an investigation, and now unusually the Russians have admitted it was them. Maybe a lower level commander made the decision which would be unusual. Doesn't change the effects though.
If Ukraine is storing weapons at the port, they make it a target. Just like how they constantly install artillery and so on adjacent to civilians. Maybe propaganda but from what I'm seeing Russia does tend to refrain from artillery attacks in those human shield situations, whjich arguably is one of the reasons Ukraine perseists, alongside them knowing they get good publicity for more western weapons any time civilians are affected.
Having warships near other ships is likely to result in problems too.
So no, if I were a worker I'd not be wanting to risk my life with weapons being stored nearby, and likewise having a ship, I wouldn't want it going to a port which is a military target. I'd also be wary of going there if it's surrounded by mines which it is.
I suspect plans for targetting went ahead as usual. Putin may well have intended them to stop or pause but the word didn't get through so the action caught him by surprise - I doubt he has his finger on or off every missile in this conflict. Maybe he was cynical, but that doesn't really add up.
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Invader v invaded - if it were only so simple. I've made my thoughts on that clear already. I also made my thoughts clear on regime change from external interference. Whilst the US and its friends make that a regular part of their worldwide &amp;quot;policing&amp;quot; the shit usually hits the fan, the case of Ukraine being up there with the worst messes.
#billyblinkersbrigade
Invader v invaded it is that simple, none of what is happening now would not be happening if Russia (the invader) hadn’t illegally invaded Ukraine (the invaded). Everything else is secondary to the fact that Russia (the invader) invaded.
#BRRPutinsMouthPiece
What were they supposed to do? Allow Ukraine to join NATO and have there forces sat on their doorstep? US/NATO/EU all share the responsibility for this. It's not a case of goodies v baddies.
Ukraine as a sovereign country can choose whoever they want to join, not be bullied by another country, Russia are paranoid
They can, but explain the coup. That was not even solely an internal coup, and it was far from democratic.
Ukraine is bullied from two sides not one. There is no doubt about that whatsoever. even more relevant is that the US has been planning this for decades.
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Seems the Russians are trying to do the same now
So the US etc instigating regime change was okay?
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That's easy to explain Dutch. He denied it was a Russian missile until videos of a Russian missile came out (and they have probably recovered bits now) to prove he was wrong. Then when that lie has been debunked - come out with another one. It's what liars do - Johnson has made a career out of it.
Lies... or confusion? I'll give you the beneft of the doubt here and accept your apology. Or maybe you can show where I said that?
I note you weren't able to reply to what I asked you about this incident.
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Seems the Russians are trying to do the same now
So the US etc instigating regime change was okay?
Have I ever said it was? Neither is the illegal invasion of a sovereign country. Two wrongs don’t make a right
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Seems the Russians are trying to do the same now
So the US etc instigating regime change was okay?
Have I ever said it was? Neither is the illegal invasion of a sovereign country. Two wrongs don’t make a right
Agreed.
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That's easy to explain Dutch. He denied it was a Russian missile until videos of a Russian missile came out (and they have probably recovered bits now) to prove he was wrong. Then when that lie has been debunked - come out with another one. It's what liars do - Johnson has made a career out of it.
Lies... or confusion? I'll give you the beneft of the doubt here and accept your apology. Or maybe you can show where I said that?
I note you weren't able to reply to what I asked you about this incident.
Did it cross your mind he might have been talking about Putin?
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Invader v invaded - if it were only so simple. I've made my thoughts on that clear already. I also made my thoughts clear on regime change from external interference. Whilst the US and its friends make that a regular part of their worldwide &quot;policing&quot; the shit usually hits the fan, the case of Ukraine being up there with the worst messes.
#billyblinkersbrigade
Invader v invaded it is that simple, none of what is happening now would not be happening if Russia (the invader) hadn’t illegally invaded Ukraine (the invaded). Everything else is secondary to the fact that Russia (the invader) invaded.
#BRRPutinsMouthPiece
What were they supposed to do? Allow Ukraine to join NATO and have there forces sat on their doorstep? US/NATO/EU all share the responsibility for this. It's not a case of goodies v baddies.
So they invade the country which was a substantial distance-piece with the intention of making it part of Russia, thus eliminating the distance they had to Nato countries. Smart thinking.
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What were they supposed to do? Allow Ukraine to join NATO and have there forces sat on their doorstep? US/NATO/EU all share the responsibility for this. It's not a case of goodies v baddies.
So they invade the country which was a substantial distance-piece with the intention of making it part of Russia, thus eliminating the distance they had to Nato countries. Smart thinking.
It stops NATO advancing east - NATO the "non aggressor". Smart thinking.
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That's easy to explain Dutch. He denied it was a Russian missile until videos of a Russian missile came out (and they have probably recovered bits now) to prove he was wrong. Then when that lie has been debunked - come out with another one. It's what liars do - Johnson has made a career out of it.
Lies... or confusion? I'll give you the beneft of the doubt here and accept your apology. Or maybe you can show where I said that?
I note you weren't able to reply to what I asked you about this incident.
Eh, you can expect anything you like but if you want to be an apolgist for Putin thats your problem. There is nothing to debate - Putin agreed not to do something that he then did - it shows him for exctly what he is.
Dutch is pondering why PUTIN said what he did about the missile strike. Saying one thing and then coming up with a different story. I gave my theory on that.
Not everything is about you. I will accept my apology on that.
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That's easy to explain Dutch. He denied it was a Russian missile until videos of a Russian missile came out (and they have probably recovered bits now) to prove he was wrong. Then when that lie has been debunked - come out with another one. It's what liars do - Johnson has made a career out of it.
Lies... or confusion? I'll give you the beneft of the doubt here and accept your apology. Or maybe you can show where I said that?
I note you weren't able to reply to what I asked you about this incident.
Did it cross your mind he might have been talking about Putin?
Ha! True!
Either way, I don't think thats how it went.
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Eh, you can expect anything you like but if you want to be an apolgist for Putin thats your problem. There is nothing to debate - Putin agreed not to do something that he then did - it shows him for exctly what he is.
Dutch is pondering why PUTIN said what he did about the missile strike. Saying one thing and then coming up with a different story. I gave my theory on that.
Not everything is about you. I will accept my apology on that.
Where did Putin say Russia wouldn't attack military targets in Odessa?
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What were they supposed to do? Allow Ukraine to join NATO and have there forces sat on their doorstep? US/NATO/EU all share the responsibility for this. It's not a case of goodies v baddies.
So they invade the country which was a substantial distance-piece with the intention of making it part of Russia, thus eliminating the distance they had to Nato countries. Smart thinking.
It stops NATO advancing east - NATO the "non aggressor". Smart thinking.
So, in your world it's ok to invade and kill thousands of innocent, peaceful people on the pretext of preventing their country becoming a member of an organisation whose purpose is to increase global harmony?
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What were they supposed to do? Allow Ukraine to join NATO and have there forces sat on their doorstep? US/NATO/EU all share the responsibility for this. It's not a case of goodies v baddies.
So they invade the country which was a substantial distance-piece with the intention of making it part of Russia, thus eliminating the distance they had to Nato countries. Smart thinking.
It stops NATO advancing east - NATO the "non aggressor". Smart thinking.
I think 33+ years of working for NATO has strengthened my resolve to be a peacemaker, the pursuit of peace is what we did every day and was behind every action I took or saw. I will continue in that vein in this thread.
Like a broken record I will keep saying, do not confuse NATO the international body with the individual nations and any actions, overt or covert, that they might take.
Without NATO the last 70 years would very probably have seen internal wars between what are NATO member nations which have been avoided because they have continually been talking with each other (in some cases within the EU as well). The idea of many nations having the capability of defending together in fully interoperable manner has been a huge deterrent to attack from the east. This is why Putin hates NATO.
On the other hand the fact that NATO Operates only on a unanimous principle has certainly reined in potentially aggressive moves by some NATO member nations.
I am certainly not going to defend the US and to a lesser extent a number of other NATO member nations.
But I will most certainly defend the theory and practice of NATO as a peace oriented alliance.
It is probably just careless language to say things like 'NATO advancing to the East', as if a NATO authorised task force is rolling tanks eastwards. The reality is more like a new member country's air defence and command and control systems become compatible with NATO standards. That new member is not in any better situation to attack anyone (would never be approved), but is certainly better able to defend against attack.
NATO expansion has never been an aim, but NATO is open to nations who wish to join subject to certain conditions mostly concerning democratic systems and economic stability. It is a fact that after 1989 a number of independent nations were established. They are all members of the UN - as Richard Osman continually says/said on Pointless 'by a country we mean a member of the UN'. They all had the right to decide if they wished to apply to join NATO. NATO was not part of any coup or covert operations in Ukraine.
Again I do not defend actions by some NATO member countries taken outside of the NATO umbrella. But to see NATO accused of some of the aggressive things on here is certainly a personal insult to everything I did for 33+ years, and all the like minded colleagues I had during that time. Again I think it is basically a misunderstanding of NATO and careless language (also used by journalist btw).
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DU,, I think where we disagree is that I see NATO in real terms as being led by the USA.
It seems that US agents were involved in the coup on a few levels. We know the US has a policy of stirring up trouble for Russia with the ai of weakening Russia. Whether or not US government agencies have any direct influence over NATO, thy can certainly use it as a tool in the way they have, and still are doing.
Just on that, whilst NATO in itself is purely for peace through defence, encouraging an expansion to Ukraine has not brought peace. And lets be clear, if the USA has a desire for peace, it is not for peace itself but for preserving US domination and security. It's what empires do. Russia and China are no different. Ukraine is a pawn in this. It's evil.
Whilst you are talking about NATO being defensive, isn't it also about being bigger and more powerful than the others? Ultimately where does all this go? How far east does it go, how far south does it go? As someone said earlier, the clue is in the name - I missed where Ukraine has its Atlantic coast. As a country joins NATO, isn't it by definition protected by the USA, and so is beholdant to the USA, Using Ukraine as the live example, then that country will have less connection with countries outside NATO, or moreso ones seen as a threat to NATO, ie Russia. This is in all practicality more than merely a mutual defense club.
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What were they supposed to do? Allow Ukraine to join NATO and have there forces sat on their doorstep? US/NATO/EU all share the responsibility for this. It's not a case of goodies v baddies.
So they invade the country which was a substantial distance-piece with the intention of making it part of Russia, thus eliminating the distance they had to Nato countries. Smart thinking.
It stops NATO advancing east - NATO the &quot;non aggressor&quot;. Smart thinking.
So, in your world it's ok to invade and kill thousands of innocent, peaceful people on the pretext of preventing their country becoming a member of an organisation whose purpose is to increase global harmony?
You miss the point. You suggested it was a stupid move. I'm showing you the reason behind Russia's action.
The US knew this wiould happen so why would it help facilitate a coup and then encourage NATO membership. And EU membership encouraged by the EU countries, as well as likely the USA too. Because it thinks that has more value than the lives of Ukraines? Evidently that is the case.
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DU,, I think where we disagree is that I see NATO in real terms as being led by the USA.
It seems that US agents were involved in the coup on a few levels. We know the US has a policy of stirring up trouble for Russia with the ai of weakening Russia. Whether or not US government agencies have any direct influence over NATO, thy can certainly use it as a tool in the way they have, and still are doing.
Just on that, whilst NATO in itself is purely for peace through defence, encouraging an expansion to Ukraine has not brought peace. And lets be clear, if the USA has a desire for peace, it is not for peace itself but for preserving US domination and security. It's what empires do. Russia and China are no different. Ukraine is a pawn in this. It's evil.
Whilst you are talking about NATO being defensive, isn't it also about being bigger and more powerful than the others? Ultimately where does all this go? How far east does it go, how far south does it go? As someone said earlier, the clue is in the name - I missed where Ukraine has its Atlantic coast. As a country joins NATO, isn't it by definition protected by the USA, and so is beholdant to the USA, Using Ukraine as the live example, then that country will have less connection with countries outside NATO, or moreso ones seen as a threat to NATO, ie Russia. This is in all practicality more than merely a mutual defense club.
Hits nail on head.
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https://www.19fortyfive.com/2022/07/ukraine-will-not-back-down/
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DU,, I think where we disagree is that I see NATO in real terms as being led by the USA.
It seems that US agents were involved in the coup on a few levels. We know the US has a policy of stirring up trouble for Russia with the ai of weakening Russia. Whether or not US government agencies have any direct influence over NATO, thy can certainly use it as a tool in the way they have, and still are doing.
Just on that, whilst NATO in itself is purely for peace through defence, encouraging an expansion to Ukraine has not brought peace. And lets be clear, if the USA has a desire for peace, it is not for peace itself but for preserving US domination and security. It's what empires do. Russia and China are no different. Ukraine is a pawn in this. It's evil.
Whilst you are talking about NATO being defensive, isn't it also about being bigger and more powerful than the others? Ultimately where does all this go? How far east does it go, how far south does it go? As someone said earlier, the clue is in the name - I missed where Ukraine has its Atlantic coast. As a country joins NATO, isn't it by definition protected by the USA, and so is beholdant to the USA, Using Ukraine as the live example, then that country will have less connection with countries outside NATO, or moreso ones seen as a threat to NATO, ie Russia. This is in all practicality more than merely a mutual defense club.
Hits nail on head.
So the UK should withdraw from NATO?
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DU,, I think where we disagree is that I see NATO in real terms as being led by the USA.
It seems that US agents were involved in the coup on a few levels. We know the US has a policy of stirring up trouble for Russia with the ai of weakening Russia. Whether or not US government agencies have any direct influence over NATO, thy can certainly use it as a tool in the way they have, and still are doing.
Just on that, whilst NATO in itself is purely for peace through defence, encouraging an expansion to Ukraine has not brought peace. And lets be clear, if the USA has a desire for peace, it is not for peace itself but for preserving US domination and security. It's what empires do. Russia and China are no different. Ukraine is a pawn in this. It's evil.
Whilst you are talking about NATO being defensive, isn't it also about being bigger and more powerful than the others? Ultimately where does all this go? How far east does it go, how far south does it go? As someone said earlier, the clue is in the name - I missed where Ukraine has its Atlantic coast. As a country joins NATO, isn't it by definition protected by the USA, and so is beholdant to the USA, Using Ukraine as the live example, then that country will have less connection with countries outside NATO, or moreso ones seen as a threat to NATO, ie Russia. This is in all practicality more than merely a mutual defense club.
BRR – that is the best set out post you have written and I can accept that we can certainly agree to disagree on some things. I think these are our main disagreements:
• First you think of NATO as being led by the USA, I see it as reining in the USA when it thinks necessary. NATO has no influence how nations act on their own. Two differing viewpoints.
• You seem to question Ukraine’s right to be an independent country. I don’t.
Like it or not the world order changed after 1989 and a number of new countries were established, including in the former Yugoslavia and the former USSR. They are recognised by the UN and protected by international law. Russia invading Ukraine because it thinks it should belong to Russia is akin to the UK invading Ireland because we don’t accept what happened in 1922. This IMHO is why Putin is the clear aggressor here.
• You seem to think NATO is some kind of threat to Russia. My view is it isn’t.
My previous post tried to show that a new member becoming part of NATO does not increase its power to attack, it would not be allowed. No hostilities will begin with an attack from any NATO forces. Russia is under no more threat now than at any other time, and of course the main threat is and has always been long range nuclear missiles. The only thing that has changed is that it is more difficult for an imperialist expansionist Russia to attack some countries, and this is what angers Putin and so he paints it as a threat.
• You question the significance of the fact that Ukraine does not have an Atlantic coast. That is unfortunately a bit of a red herring if you will excuse the marine pun. As I have posted before, Article V of NATO stipulates Europe and the Atlantic:
on the territory of any of the Parties in Europe or North America, on the Algerian Departments of France 2, on the territory of Turkey or on the Islands under the jurisdiction of any of the Parties in the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer;
on the forces, vessels, or aircraft of any of the Parties, when in or over these territories or any other area in Europe in which occupation forces of any of the Parties were stationed on the date when the Treaty entered into force or the Mediterranean Sea or the North Atlantic area north of the Tropic of Cancer.
Most NATO nations do not have an Atlantic coast (only US, Canada, Iceland, UK, France, Spain and Portugal do). What constitutes Europe is a more pertinent and debatable question.
From Wiki:
The prevalent definition of Europe as a geographical term has been in use since the mid-19th century. Europe is taken to be bounded by large bodies of water to the north, west and south; Europe's limits to the east and north-east are usually taken to be the Ural Mountains, the Ural River and the Caspian Sea; to the south-east, the Caucasus Mountains, the Black Sea and the waterways connecting the Black Sea to the Mediterranean Sea
This would seem to put Ukraine in Europe, and much of Russia as well. Certainly, prior to this conflict, Ukraine and Russia play in European football competitions and take part in the Eurovision song contest, so popular culture would also seem to accept Ukraine as in Europe.
Finally, and this is meant in a positive spirit, tensions on this thread have been running very high. I think you can understand my own deep personal interest. I think most people can agree that some countries in ‘The West’ have had their own dark operations (which I condemn outright), but no-one would say other than what Putin is doing in Ukraine is wider, grander and more brutal, cruel, and criminally reprehensible than anything else in Europe since WW2. Also as above I certainly feel Putin is the aggressor. I think many people are offended by your equating the extent of both sides’ transgressions. If the point you wish to make is that ’The West’ is not totally innocent of all war crimes in multiple theatres then I think most will agree with you, but until this last post I feel you have been over-egging the point.
Given all the above I will agree to disagree on this and look forward to engaging in football related conversations very soon.
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Well said Dutch
There are two characters on this forum who choose to peddle out the Putin line - for whatever reason. Like the Putin guff I don't believe anything they say and gave up reading their posts on the matter of Ukraine many many weeks ago. I fear your well reasoned posts will fall on deaf ears as far as the two aforementioned characters go and that they will continue to peddle Mr Putin's commentary.
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DU,, I think where we disagree is that I see NATO in real terms as being led by the USA.
It seems that US agents were involved in the coup on a few levels. We know the US has a policy of stirring up trouble for Russia with the ai of weakening Russia. Whether or not US government agencies have any direct influence over NATO, thy can certainly use it as a tool in the way they have, and still are doing.
Just on that, whilst NATO in itself is purely for peace through defence, encouraging an expansion to Ukraine has not brought peace. And lets be clear, if the USA has a desire for peace, it is not for peace itself but for preserving US domination and security. It's what empires do. Russia and China are no different. Ukraine is a pawn in this. It's evil.
Whilst you are talking about NATO being defensive, isn't it also about being bigger and more powerful than the others? Ultimately where does all this go? How far east does it go, how far south does it go? As someone said earlier, the clue is in the name - I missed where Ukraine has its Atlantic coast. As a country joins NATO, isn't it by definition protected by the USA, and so is beholdant to the USA, Using Ukraine as the live example, then that country will have less connection with countries outside NATO, or moreso ones seen as a threat to NATO, ie Russia. This is in all practicality more than merely a mutual defense club.
Hits nail on head.
So the UK should withdraw from NATO?
yes
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I think AL has a bit of impotent middle aged man envy of a leader who is prepared to butcher tens of thousands of innocents to show the world how potent he is.
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Uk withdrawing from nato would be like painting a huge target across the country, with London at bullseye.
I see things the other way.
Post Putin, get Russia to join NATO.
Sounds far fetched? They came close in 1954, fearing increased military growth in Germany.
And more recently, Putin himself has alluded to it again.
George Robertson, a former Labour defence secretary who led Nato between 1999 and 2003, said Putin made it clear at their first meeting that he wanted Russia to be part of western Europe. “They wanted to be part of that secure, stable prosperous west that Russia was out of at the time,” he said.
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I think AL has a bit of impotent middle aged man envy of a leader who is prepared to butcher tens of thousands of innocents to show the world how potent he is.
Whereas BST sees himself as a great political leader in waiting who will gloriously lead Britain back into the EU, end poverty and bring world peace because he has all the answers on every subject ever raised. I can't think why our leaders don't all tune in to Radio BST to take his knowledgeable advice and all the worlds problems will miraculously solved. He is obviously wasting his time on a fourth division football forum when he should really be sat at Number 10.
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AL
Nope. No need for your melodrama. It's really simple.
You're a fascist.
I'm not.
Just embrace what you are rather than lash out when folk point it out.
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I think AL has a bit of impotent middle aged man envy of a leader who is prepared to butcher tens of thousands of innocents to show the world how potent he is.
That kind of response is typical of you BST. You have a lot of good things to say, but when you stoop to this personal insult mode it's embarrassing to watch.
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AL
Nope. No need for your melodrama. It's really simple.
You're a fascist.
I'm not.
Just embrace what you are rather than lash out when folk point it out.
I'm happy with my life and whatever i am. You're one who constantly moans and slags off every decision maker in this country and the world. I find it amusing that you're always on the losing side. Brexit, Conservative Government, Covid, Climate, racism, sexism, blah blah, the list goes on. You must be really one unhappy person. :lol:
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I think AL has a bit of impotent middle aged man envy of a leader who is prepared to butcher tens of thousands of innocents to show the world how potent he is.
That kind of response is typical of you BST. You have a lot of good things to say, but when you stoop to this personal insult mode it's embarrassing to watch.
Read what he has written about the destruction of Aleppo and Grozny before you start throwing insults my way. He glories in the destruction that Putin has wrought.
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I think AL has a bit of impotent middle aged man envy of a leader who is prepared to butcher tens of thousands of innocents to show the world how potent he is.
That kind of response is typical of you BST. You have a lot of good things to say, but when you stoop to this personal insult mode it's embarrassing to watch.
Read what he has written about the destruction of Aleppo and Grozny before you start throwing insults my way. He glories in the destruction that Putin has wrought.
Throwing insults, that's my point.
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Uk withdrawing from nato would be like painting a huge target across the country, with London at bullseye.
I see things the other way.
Post Putin, get Russia to join NATO.
Sounds far fetched? They came close in 1954, fearing increased military growth in Germany.
And more recently, Putin himself has alluded to it again.
George Robertson, a former Labour defence secretary who led Nato between 1999 and 2003, said Putin made it clear at their first meeting that he wanted Russia to be part of western Europe. “They wanted to be part of that secure, stable prosperous west that Russia was out of at the time,” he said.
I agree, a very difficult solution but would have been the gold solution way way back and even more recently. I think the problem is with powerful US folks, including polititians, needing the us v them to justify their existance. Perverse and twisted, but that's how these people are with their "power steroids". Similar goes for Russia though I suspect there was more willingness with them, but that's gone for some time now.
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DU, thanks for your reply, I'll answer it as I can.
On that first point:
• First you think of NATO as being led by the USA, I see it as reining in the USA when it thinks necessary. NATO has no influence how nations act on their own. Two differing viewpoints.
I think it's both. Whilst NATO is on one level above dictation from individuals, on others it isn't. Eg, the US could withdraw some of it's practical support - currently I think it provides more than others as a proportion of populaton. That would weaken NATO, but would leave some places more vulnerable. That is muscle.
Beyond that, it is clear the US is the major power in NATO and other countries are glad of that massive protection. You don't get owt for nowt. The giving to the US can come in many guises, it's not necessary for that to be within the NATO structure.
But yes, countries won't always fall behind the US, and so some operations the US is wanting are outside NATO. And marginally this may reign in the US particularly in anything around Europe. It doesn't have any effect in all the other regions the US acts in militarily and in regime change.
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AL
Nope. No need for your melodrama. It's really simple.
You're a fascist.
I'm not.
Just embrace what you are rather than lash out when folk point it out.
I'm happy with my life and whatever i am. You're one who constantly moans and slags off every decision maker in this country and the world. I find it amusing that you're always on the losing side. Brexit, Conservative Government, Covid, Climate, racism, sexism, blah blah, the list goes on. You must be really one unhappy person. :lol:
This is his MO AL, if you don't tow his line he will eventually brand you a fascist or racist
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Ldr.
The one and only person in here I have called racist wrote racist posts and refused to retract them when confronted with the fact.
The one and only person in here I have called fascist has regularly regaled us with opinions straight out of the fascist play book.
What do you call a feathered animal with wings and a bill that quacks?
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DU, staying with the NATO theme, reply two:
You seem to think NATO is some kind of threat to Russia. My view is it isn’t.
My previous post tried to show that a new member becoming part of NATO does not increase its power to attack, it would not be allowed. No hostilities will begin with an attack from any NATO forces. Russia is under no more threat now than at any other time, and of course the main threat is and has always been long range nuclear missiles. The only thing that has changed is that it is more difficult for an imperialist expansionist Russia to attack some countries, and this is what angers Putin and so he paints it as a threat.
Maybe I haven't been entirely clear here. I believe that Russia genuinely feels NATO expansion to Ukraine is a threat. Whether that materialises to be an actual threat or not I don't know. I hear what you say, but I also understand a Russian perspective.
There is a long long history of wars between Russia and countries to it's west. The one very much still in the minds of many Russians is the Nazi attack. Put together the fact that there are a lot of extreme right wing people in Ukraine especially in government, and then the explicitly nazi sympathetic side of the Maiden demos and then their incorporation into Ukraine military in the well known form of the Azov units, but also in others, and then the horrendous crimes those units committed in the Donbas and there you have a powder keg literally with swastikas on it. To some extent those units were "cleaned up" but not entirely, plus the individuals largely weren't removed from the military but moved within it. Yes, the nazi side of the Ukraine has been used in propaganda by Russia, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
This, and much more, on it's own is serious, but when NATO moves to effectively protect this, and protect the racist attack on ethnic Russians by its legitamisation of what the Ukraine government was doing and the situation heats up further. Add the very obvious US interventions, including its part in the undemocratic regime change and it reaches crazy proportions.
It all adds up. NATO was part of this in that it's invite to Ukraine stood despite all the above. However I do think this is far more of a US issue than a NATO one, just that NATO is one available tool that was used. The EU and some of it's members played an aggressive game too. Britain also, I have no doubt.
So what happens if Ukraine joing NATO? Do missiles end up on it's soil? That would mean they would be close to Moscow, as close as they coud be in Latvia, but then that is two angles of "threat". Ukraine would change to western weaponry. Ukraine would have military exercises with western nations. US troops woukd be in Ukraine. Whatever the actual limits of any NATO membership, it being purely for defence, you can see how that is not likely to be perceived that way in Russia. NATO, the US etc knows that full well. Strangely many on this forum are unable to stretch to seeing this.
Russia as imperialist. Absolutely, as is China, the US, France, Britain and so many others. The US has been the most active imperialist nation over the last 50 years, a catalogue of interventions both militarily and with secret service regime changes. Wholy undemocratic. Russia is well aware of this, so we have extreme tension when the US in the guise of NATO (here you may disagree!) lands next door to Russia. Do I have to mention the Cuban missile crisis?
I'm not sure that Russia woukd have gone into Ukraine without the regime change and NATO/EU interference. Just my feeling. I may be wrong. But the US most definitely did go into Ukraine as I said above. This was a direct threat to Russia on many levels, or at least that is how Russia will have seen it, and all the western parties knew that. The US in particular has the aim to destabilise Russia, it has deliberately used Ukraine, Ukraine bodies, as pawns to that effect.
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The only threat to russia from NATO is preventing putin's expansionism, period
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Ldr.
The one and only person in here I have called racist wrote racist posts and refused to retract them when confronted with the fact.
The one and only person in here I have called fascist has regularly regaled us with opinions straight out of the fascist play book.
What do you call a feathered animal with wings and a bill that quacks?
He can say what he wants, i don't take any notice of champagne socialists.
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https://wartranslated.com/controversy-in-the-pro-russian-sources-over-the-brutal-video-of-castration-of-a-ukrainian-solider/
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https://wartranslated.com/controversy-in-the-pro-russian-sources-over-the-brutal-video-of-castration-of-a-ukrainian-solider/
AL and BRR will claim it’s his own fault for having b*llocks in the first place, no b*llocks no castration
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https://wartranslated.com/controversy-in-the-pro-russian-sources-over-the-brutal-video-of-castration-of-a-ukrainian-solider/
AL and BRR will claim it’s his own fault for having b*llocks in the first place, no b*llocks no castration
Why would I? Do say, having laid that as a personal dig.
It's sick, though I haven't seen it.
The apparent Ukraine slaughtering of 40? of its own forces imprisoned in Donbas is likewise disgusting, and far worse than a castration. Not that Wilts is likely to report on that, nor any of the ongoing Ukraine attrocities, even those on civilians.
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https://wartranslated.com/controversy-in-the-pro-russian-sources-over-the-brutal-video-of-castration-of-a-ukrainian-solider/
AL and BRR will claim it’s his own fault for having b*llocks in the first place, no b*llocks no castration
Why would I? Do say, having laid that as a personal dig.
It's sick, though I haven't seen it.
The apparent Ukraine slaughtering of 40? of its own forces imprisoned in Donbas is likewise disgusting, and far worse than a castration. Not that Wilts is likely to report on that, nor any of the ongoing Ukraine attrocities, even those on civilians.
Funnily enough when the Ukrainians bombed their own troops in the so called POW Camp, not one guard of that camp was killed or wounded. Funny that isn’t it? I wonder how that happened?
https://twitter.com/HannaLiubakova/status/1553021300678983682
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https://wartranslated.com/controversy-in-the-pro-russian-sources-over-the-brutal-video-of-castration-of-a-ukrainian-solider/
AL and BRR will claim it’s his own fault for having b*llocks in the first place, no b*llocks no castration
Why would I? Do say, having laid that as a personal dig.
It's sick, though I haven't seen it.
The apparent Ukraine slaughtering of 40? of its own forces imprisoned in Donbas is likewise disgusting, and far worse than a castration. Not that Wilts is likely to report on that, nor any of the ongoing Ukraine attrocities, even those on civilians.
Funnily enough when the Ukrainians bombed their own troops in the so called POW Camp, not one guard of that camp was killed or wounded. Funny that isn’t it? I wonder how that happened?
https://twitter.com/HannaLiubakova/status/1553021300678983682
If that is true, though there are reports of guards being killed or injured, it "may" be a war crime. Given that many of the Azov soldiers there were likely to be given death sentence for crimes they were accused of in Mariupol, you would then need to ask why would the Russians bother to do this?
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Nothing to do with Russia trying to hide evidence of deaths and torture at said camp?
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https://wartranslated.com/controversy-in-the-pro-russian-sources-over-the-brutal-video-of-castration-of-a-ukrainian-solider/
AL and BRR will claim it’s his own fault for having b*llocks in the first place, no b*llocks no castration
Why would I? Do say, having laid that as a personal dig.
It's sick, though I haven't seen it.
The apparent Ukraine slaughtering of 40? of its own forces imprisoned in Donbas is likewise disgusting, and far worse than a castration. Not that Wilts is likely to report on that, nor any of the ongoing Ukraine attrocities, even those on civilians.
Who was it that was going on about false flag actions used to hide evidence of war crimes - let me just go back and check...
Wagner Group 'apparently'
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1553017263569207296
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1553047627624759297
https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1647967/vladimir-putin-russia-ukraine-prisoners-war-torture-olenivka-jail-bombing-40-dead-update
https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3539709-wagner-group-members-kill-ukrainian-pows-in-olenivka-intelligence-data.html
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Wilts using The Express to back up his views :lol:
"Kyiv balmes Moscow". No shit. Did Kyiv mention the hero Ghost Pilot again too? Or maybe Bandera - oh no, conveniently that one's in storage whilst courting the West. Did it demand more weapons?
Again we have here a clear demo of the many folks here who suck up and regurgitate the western, ie Kyiv media propaganda. Why wait for any analysis? Or present more than one side? Or maybe we'll wait and see whether it was the Wagners or the HIMARS.
If the Russians did this I hope those responsible are caught for it despite the scum that died.
Note, these are mainly the murdering Azov's. Soldiers who took over Mariupol appartments, imprisoned the residents as human shields there (evidently not mentioned in the Express at any point) before doing the same with resicents taking them into the Azov Steelworks, again as human shields. They're also the very same guys who butchered civilians in the Donbas from 2014. And many of them are the same thugs enlisted for the flowery democratic Maidan Coup demos. On the other hand, they are simply prisoners of war. But don't go telling me these people are innocent fair minded soldiers, no matter how indoctrinated you are by The Express.
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Nothing to do with Russia trying to hide evidence of deaths and torture at said camp?
Go on.... Likely there is torture. The yanks, the Brits, everyone does that. Deaths... for that we'd need some evidence. Any other theories or just the Kyiv versions?
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#bothsides.
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If someone came up to me and kicked me in the b*llocks he'd be bang out of order. If I retaliated by kicking him in the b*llocks I'd be quite within my rights, because he was bang out of order.
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Wilts using The Express to back up his views :lol:
"Kyiv balmes Moscow". No shit. Did Kyiv mention the hero Ghost Pilot again too? Or maybe Bandera - oh no, conveniently that one's in storage whilst courting the West. Did it demand more weapons?
Again we have here a clear demo of the many folks here who suck up and regurgitate the western, ie Kyiv media propaganda. Why wait for any analysis? Or present more than one side? Or maybe we'll wait and see whether it was the Wagners or the HIMARS.
If the Russians did this I hope those responsible are caught for it despite the scum that died.
Note, these are mainly the murdering Azov's. Soldiers who took over Mariupol appartments, imprisoned the residents as human shields there (evidently not mentioned in the Express at any point) before doing the same with resicents taking them into the Azov Steelworks, again as human shields. They're also the very same guys who butchered civilians in the Donbas from 2014. And many of them are the same thugs enlisted for the flowery democratic Maidan Coup demos. On the other hand, they are simply prisoners of war. But don't go telling me these people are innocent fair minded soldiers, no matter how indoctrinated you are by The Express.
You complain that other people put up an alternate view to an incident you gave a totally one-sided account of!!!
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If someone came up to me and kicked me in the b*llocks he'd be bang out of order. If I retaliated by kicking him in the b*llocks I'd be quite within my rights, because he was bang out of order.
Did you get that from The Beano?
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Wilts using The Express to back up his views :lol:
&quot;Kyiv balmes Moscow&quot;. No shit. Did Kyiv mention the hero Ghost Pilot again too? Or maybe Bandera - oh no, conveniently that one's in storage whilst courting the West. Did it demand more weapons?
Again we have here a clear demo of the many folks here who suck up and regurgitate the western, ie Kyiv media propaganda. Why wait for any analysis? Or present more than one side? Or maybe we'll wait and see whether it was the Wagners or the HIMARS.
If the Russians did this I hope those responsible are caught for it despite the scum that died.
Note, these are mainly the murdering Azov's. Soldiers who took over Mariupol appartments, imprisoned the residents as human shields there (evidently not mentioned in the Express at any point) before doing the same with resicents taking them into the Azov Steelworks, again as human shields. They're also the very same guys who butchered civilians in the Donbas from 2014. And many of them are the same thugs enlisted for the flowery democratic Maidan Coup demos. On the other hand, they are simply prisoners of war. But don't go telling me these people are innocent fair minded soldiers, no matter how indoctrinated you are by The Express.
You complain that other people put up an alternate view to an incident you gave a totally one-sided account of!!!
Pot kettle. At the time, all I heard was the incident and initial reports, which were that a HIMARS had hit the place. As there are vids showing Ukraines apparently confessing to war crimes and referring to orders they were given from high up, then there is the motive. No reason I've heard that adds up for Russians blowing it up.
As it is, I siad we should wait and see. I don't hear that from you.
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#bothsides.
#billyblinkers
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"All you heard was..."
Well aye. If you just listen to Russian state propaganda channels.
"No reason I've heard that adds up for Russians blowing it up."
Like there was no reason for them blowing up apartment blocks in Kyiv.
Or a supermarket in Kremenchuk.
Or the port at Odessa.
Of course there's a f**king reason. They are State Terrorists.
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I listen to a wide variety of stuff, just happened to hear that first. What do you listen to?
All those incidents were attacking military targets, you know that. Civilian buildings were affected too.
There is a problem with weapons and manpower locating within civilian buildings or adjacent to them. Forcefully holding civilians there is evil and cowardly, maybe what the Azov guys were talking about having been instructed to do? As far as I understand, all that contravenes regulations. Obviously I mean that in relation to both Russians and Ukraines.
And then then there is shelling of civilian areas where there is *clearly* no military target. Lots of examples of that, tho guessing your Express sources missed that?
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Still coming out with that Kremlin b*llocks about the Kremenchuk attacks being targeted at military targets.
You are truly an embarrassment. You can't even keep up with the propaganda line. Even the Kremlin gave up on that line.
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Still coming out with that Kremlin b*llocks about the Kremenchuk attacks being targeted at military targets.
You are truly an embarrassment. You can't even keep up with the propaganda line. Even the Kremlin gave up on that line.
Embaressing? :silly: Try being specific with your blinkered rhetoric. No idea what you're referring to.
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Wilts using The Express to back up his views :lol:
&amp;quot;Kyiv balmes Moscow&amp;quot;. No shit. Did Kyiv mention the hero Ghost Pilot again too? Or maybe Bandera - oh no, conveniently that one's in storage whilst courting the West. Did it demand more weapons?
Again we have here a clear demo of the many folks here who suck up and regurgitate the western, ie Kyiv media propaganda. Why wait for any analysis? Or present more than one side? Or maybe we'll wait and see whether it was the Wagners or the HIMARS.
If the Russians did this I hope those responsible are caught for it despite the scum that died.
Note, these are mainly the murdering Azov's. Soldiers who took over Mariupol appartments, imprisoned the residents as human shields there (evidently not mentioned in the Express at any point) before doing the same with resicents taking them into the Azov Steelworks, again as human shields. They're also the very same guys who butchered civilians in the Donbas from 2014. And many of them are the same thugs enlisted for the flowery democratic Maidan Coup demos. On the other hand, they are simply prisoners of war. But don't go telling me these people are innocent fair minded soldiers, no matter how indoctrinated you are by The Express.
You complain that other people put up an alternate view to an incident you gave a totally one-sided account of!!!
Pot kettle. At the time, all I heard was the incident and initial reports, which were that a HIMARS had hit the place. As there are vids showing Ukraines apparently confessing to war crimes and referring to orders they were given from high up, then there is the motive. No reason I've heard that adds up for Russians blowing it up.
As it is, I siad we should wait and see. I don't hear that from you.
I replied to a one-sided thread from you. I saw it earlier in the day but wouldn't have posted anything until more was known for definate. If you don't like people replying then dont post unverified propoganda.
Here's some more footage. As the guy say's, the lack of a debris field if it was a missile strike seems odd
https://twitter.com/EliotHiggins/status/1553618857629302787
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Wilts, and that link of yours isn't unverified propaganda? Pot kettle again.
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A long line up of cars with Ukrainians seen wanting to cross into Russian Zaporozhye. Why would that be?
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If think Russia and China will invade Ukraine and Taiwan at the same time, and North Korea will be in on the act and possibly Iran
It took a bit of time, but looks like it might be about to happen
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If think Russia and China will invade Ukraine and Taiwan at the same time, and North Korea will be in on the act and possibly Iran
It took a bit of time, but looks like it might be about to happen
This is rank stupidity by Pelosi.
The situation's stability rests on a basic understanding.
China doesn't jib at the USA overtly supporting Taiwan, as long as the USA doesn't formally recognise Taiwan's independence.
That tacit agreement has worked for half a century. Pelosi has just chucked a hand grenade into it, by visiting as the Head of Congress and second in line to the Presidency.
That's basically flicking the rods at China. China has to respond, and by the look of it, they are going to be staging live fire military exercises in Taiwanese waters.
This has the potential to be the most dangerous few days since the Cuban Missile Crisis. One mistake by China or one misinterpreted action by Taiwan or the USA, and there could be very unpleasant consequences.
Fingers crossed that China makes its point then everyone backs down.
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And I always thought Pelosi wasn't that bad.... Tell you what though, just WHY did she go there? What was her objective? What possible reason is there for her to overturn a policy establsihed for 25 years that has managed to keep the peace in a hugely fraught situation? What the hell did she think she was doing???
BobG
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And I always thought Pelosi wasn't that bad.... Tell you what though, just WHY did she go there? What was her objective? What possible reason is there for her to overturn a policy establsihed for 25 years that has managed to keep the peace in a hugely fraught situation? What the hell did she think she was doing???
BobG
Probably best to start looking into her and her husbands finances for your answers.
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And I always thought Pelosi wasn't that bad.... Tell you what though, just WHY did she go there? What was her objective? What possible reason is there for her to overturn a policy establsihed for 25 years that has managed to keep the peace in a hugely fraught situation? What the hell did she think she was doing???
BobG
Probably best to start looking into her and her husbands finances for your answers.
Or crucial mid-term elections coming up? Sabre rattling is usually good for votes in the US unfortunately. Either way I don’t think concern for Taiwan was the reason at all.
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That's my take DU. The Democrats were facing a caning in November. Pelosi's actions have been applauded by the more bellicose Republicans.
Democracy is a strange fish sometimes. It's on record that Kennedy was particularly hawkish in his initial response to the Cuban Missile Crisis because he expected the Democrats to get hammered in the Nov 62 mid-sessionals if the Republicans were allowed to paint him as soft on the Commies. That very nearly led to the end of the world.
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I listen to a wide variety of stuff, just happened to hear that first. What do you listen to?
All those incidents were attacking military targets, you know that. Civilian buildings were affected too.
There is a problem with weapons and manpower locating within civilian buildings or adjacent to them. Forcefully holding civilians there is evil and cowardly, maybe what the Azov guys were talking about having been instructed to do? As far as I understand, all that contravenes regulations. Obviously I mean that in relation to both Russians and Ukraines.
And then then there is shelling of civilian areas where there is *clearly* no military target. Lots of examples of that, tho guessing your Express sources missed that?
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/ukraine-military-endangering-civilians-locating-forces-residential-areas-new
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I listen to a wide variety of stuff, just happened to hear that first. What do you listen to?
All those incidents were attacking military targets, you know that. Civilian buildings were affected too.
There is a problem with weapons and manpower locating within civilian buildings or adjacent to them. Forcefully holding civilians there is evil and cowardly, maybe what the Azov guys were talking about having been instructed to do? As far as I understand, all that contravenes regulations. Obviously I mean that in relation to both Russians and Ukraines.
And then then there is shelling of civilian areas where there is *clearly* no military target. Lots of examples of that, tho guessing your Express sources missed that?
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/ukraine-military-endangering-civilians-locating-forces-residential-areas-new
‘We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields, in the streets & in the houses, we shall fight from the hills, from craters, from schools, hospitals & if needs be churches; we shall never surrender.’
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Interesting, maybe explains a lot?
https://lefteast.org/ukraine-agrees-to-monsanto-land-grab-for-17-billion-imf-loan/
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Interesting, maybe explains a lot?
https://lefteast.org/ukraine-agrees-to-monsanto-land-grab-for-17-billion-imf-loan/
How does that explain why Putin undertook an imperialist invasion of a sovereign independent country?
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I listen to a wide variety of stuff, just happened to hear that first. What do you listen to?
All those incidents were attacking military targets, you know that. Civilian buildings were affected too.
There is a problem with weapons and manpower locating within civilian buildings or adjacent to them. Forcefully holding civilians there is evil and cowardly, maybe what the Azov guys were talking about having been instructed to do? As far as I understand, all that contravenes regulations. Obviously I mean that in relation to both Russians and Ukraines.
And then then there is shelling of civilian areas where there is *clearly* no military target. Lots of examples of that, tho guessing your Express sources missed that?
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/ukraine-military-endangering-civilians-locating-forces-residential-areas-new
‘We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields, in the streets & in the houses, we shall fight from the hills, from craters, from schools, hospitals & if needs be churches; we shall never surrender.’
Well they shouldn't be surprised if they get shelled then, it stands to reason.
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That was a quote from the Millwall Bushwackers.
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I listen to a wide variety of stuff, just happened to hear that first. What do you listen to?
All those incidents were attacking military targets, you know that. Civilian buildings were affected too.
There is a problem with weapons and manpower locating within civilian buildings or adjacent to them. Forcefully holding civilians there is evil and cowardly, maybe what the Azov guys were talking about having been instructed to do? As far as I understand, all that contravenes regulations. Obviously I mean that in relation to both Russians and Ukraines.
And then then there is shelling of civilian areas where there is *clearly* no military target. Lots of examples of that, tho guessing your Express sources missed that?
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/ukraine-military-endangering-civilians-locating-forces-residential-areas-new
‘We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields, in the streets & in the houses, we shall fight from the hills, from craters, from schools, hospitals & if needs be churches; we shall never surrender.’
Well they shouldn't be surprised if they get shelled then, it stands to reason.
Aye.
And the people going shopping in Kremenchuk, 300 miles behind the front line. They shouldn't be surprised if they get shelled either.
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I listen to a wide variety of stuff, just happened to hear that first. What do you listen to?
All those incidents were attacking military targets, you know that. Civilian buildings were affected too.
There is a problem with weapons and manpower locating within civilian buildings or adjacent to them. Forcefully holding civilians there is evil and cowardly, maybe what the Azov guys were talking about having been instructed to do? As far as I understand, all that contravenes regulations. Obviously I mean that in relation to both Russians and Ukraines.
And then then there is shelling of civilian areas where there is *clearly* no military target. Lots of examples of that, tho guessing your Express sources missed that?
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/ukraine-military-endangering-civilians-locating-forces-residential-areas-new
‘We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields, in the streets & in the houses, we shall fight from the hills, from craters, from schools, hospitals & if needs be churches; we shall never surrender.’
Well they shouldn't be surprised if they get shelled then, it stands to reason.
Aye.
And the people going shopping in Kremenchuk, 300 miles behind the front line. They shouldn't be surprised if they get shelled either.
Depends on what was being stored near there doesn't it?
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It's like talking to the f**king wall.
Russia launched an anti-ship missile with a 70 year old guidance system that has an estimated accuracy of +/-300m. They couldn't target anything that was being stored anywhere with that system. They just lobbed a couple of 1 tonne explosives into a residential area and happened to hit a busy shopping centre, totally destroying it and killing 18 shoppers.
Because that's what Russia does. And you glory in it.
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F***ing h**l BST he’s got you biting at every ‘cast’!
Is he really worth ‘engaging’ with at any sort of intellectual level?
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I never tire of pointing out to fascists that they are fascists.
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F***ing h**l BST he’s got you biting at every ‘cast’!
Is he really worth ‘engaging’ with at any sort of intellectual level?
What is intellectual level?
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F***ing h**l BST he’s got you biting at every ‘cast’!
Is he really worth ‘engaging’ with at any sort of intellectual level?
What is intellectual level?
No surprise you don't understand that term bb, hehe
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F***ing h**l BST he’s got you biting at every ‘cast’!
Is he really worth ‘engaging’ with at any sort of intellectual level?
What is intellectual level?
If you’ve been watching the Commonwealth Games, it’s a little like the equivalent of you achieving a medal in the pole vault.
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I never tire of pointing out to fascists that they are fascists.
Ha ha. I reckon i have more socialist ideas than you have.
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Aye. Like I say. National Socialist ideas.
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Aye. Like I say. National Socialist ideas.
I mean looking after the British working class, decent pensions a reformed NHS to look after sick people properly, nationalisation of all utilities, railways and steel manufacturing, leave NATO, rearmament of our military for our DEFENCE, no more foreign wars. Call it whatever you want but i don't see a problem with any of that.
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Yup. National Socialism
BobG
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Yup. National Socialism
BobG
You don't like any of the above then?
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AL, perhaps you could start a new political party. And call it the National Socialist English Workers Party?
Sound familiar. ?
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AL, perhaps you could start a new political party. And call it the National Socialist English Workers Party?
Sound familiar. ?
The seeds are being sown for this to come to fruition. The worse the standard and cost of living becomes for the British worker eventually they will see the light and that all the major parties, msm and international big business are all screwing them over and do not have their interest at heart. Someone needs to stand up for the average person and put them and this country first. The day WILL come, we can wait...
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I take it you're all opposed to looking after the British working class, decent pensions a reformed NHS to look after sick people properly, nationalisation of all utilities, railways and steel manufacturing?
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All books in a pile lads , anyone brought the matches
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I take it you're all opposed to looking after the British working class, decent pensions a reformed NHS to look after sick people properly, nationalisation of all utilities, railways and steel manufacturing?
Hang on, decent pensions for old people.
I know of one poster who won’t like that at all.
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Good Lord! We'll be talking about the miracles wrought by Hjalmar Schacht next!
BobG
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The Mercer CFA Institute Global Pension Index (formerly the Melbourne Mercer Global Pension Index) is an annual cross-country comparison of pension systems produced in collaboration with the Monash Centre for Financial Studies. The 2021 report scores and ranks the pension systems of over 40 countries, based on more than 50 indicators under the sub-indices of adequacy, sustainability and integrity. An overall score of each country’s system is produced along with an associated grade.
The uk ranked 9th in 2021.
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On Sunday Amnesty International apologised for “distress & anger” caused by a report accusing Ukraine of endangering civilians by placing Ukrainian troops in residential areas.
Amnesty Ukraine head, Oksana Pokalchuk, quit saying “the report was a propaganda gift for Moscow”.
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On Sunday Amnesty International apologised for “distress & anger” caused by a report accusing Ukraine of endangering civilians by placing Ukrainian troops in residential areas.
Amnesty Ukraine head, Oksana Pokalchuk, quit saying “the report was a propaganda gift for Moscow”.
So the Ukraine branch are caught in pro Ukraine propaganda.
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I just watched a vid from a French TV channel interviewing some US volunteers in Ukraine. Said their command was in it for personal glory and not afraid to unnecessarily sacrifice troops to get this. Also their dead compatriots were robbed of possessions including phones and money by Ukraines.
And now I'm hearing that the assault in the Kherson area was never going to happen, just an attempt to demoralise the Russians.... will try to find the interview, but crazy stuff if so.
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You "just" watched it. Now you'll "try to find it"?
Meaning?
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My mistake. I misread BRR's post.
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I just watched a vid from a French TV channel interviewing some US volunteers in Ukraine. Said their command was in it for personal glory and not afraid to unnecessarily sacrifice troops to get this. Also their dead compatriots were robbed of possessions including phones and money by Ukraines.
And now I'm hearing that the assault in the Kherson area was never going to happen, just an attempt to demoralise the Russians.... will try to find the interview, but crazy stuff if so.
I think they have a a perfectly sound way to demoralise the Russians, given that they now have the capability to destroy large ammo dumps at an air base in the Crimea, 250 miles from Ukraine-held territory.
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I just watched a vid from a French TV channel interviewing some US volunteers in Ukraine. Said their command was in it for personal glory and not afraid to unnecessarily sacrifice troops to get this. Also their dead compatriots were robbed of possessions including phones and money by Ukraines.
And now I'm hearing that the assault in the Kherson area was never going to happen, just an attempt to demoralise the Russians.... will try to find the interview, but crazy stuff if so.
I think they have a a perfectly sound way to demoralise the Russians, given that they now have the capability to destroy large ammo dumps at an air base in the Crimea, 250 miles from Ukraine-held territory.
If that's what happened. Though given that Russia has been doing similar for a very long time, do you think Ukraines are a tad demoralised?
By the way, those vids were via Telegram, I was looking to see if I could find them elsewhere lest your devices get corrupted, and god forbid you started seeing another side to all this ;)
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Except Russia hasn't been doing it. They e been lobbing 1 tonne warheads into residential areas then claiming they've hit arms dumps, in the comfortable knowledge that their useful idioys in the West will broadcast their lies.
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Except Russia hasn't been doing it. They e been lobbing 1 tonne warheads into residential areas then claiming they've hit arms dumps, in the comfortable knowledge that their useful idioys in the West will broadcast their lies.
That's so sloppy, are you Johnson or Zelensky in disguise? I guess Ukraine is retreating and losing massive amount of troops and weaponry because they're just poo at war? Or maybe they've been systematically weakened? N'eh mind, get back to your Dorritos.
Yesterday eve the Ukraines attacked a beer production factory in Donetsk. Important target you'd think, stopping all those nasty separatists celebrating the Ukraine losses and retreats, but no, they hit the ammonia depot. As you might know, that's highly toxic to civilians as well as armed forces.
Not only that, they continue shelling with petal mines, an outlawed weapon designed to maim people. Why do this in Donetsk? Because there's a high concentration of civilians there. Evil.
Keep up chuck.
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It has to be asked why Ukraine is shelling parts of the biggest nuke plant in Europe? Russia is going to take the energy from this place to the parts of Ukraine it now has. The Ukraines don't like that, obviously, but to shell parts of it is plain mental.
BBC news on this is no more than childlike, though I'm sure some of you buy that! :rolleyes:
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Axholme Lion, genuine question. Would you regard yourself as a fascist?
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To help with clarity, from wiki, a fair definition I think:
"Fascism is a far-right, authoritarian, ultranationalist political ideology, philosophy and movement, characterized by a dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism, forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests for the good of the nation and race, and strong regimentation of society and the economy. Opposed to democracy, pluralism, free-market capitalism, anarchism, liberalism, conservatism, socialism, communism and Marxism."
Just a notch or two beyond the Conservatives. More simplistic, mainly without the sugar coating of faux democracy, and subsituting more extreme "policing" for the poverty trap?
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Axholme Lion, genuine question. Would you regard yourself as a fascist?
Not at all. I believe what i believe and am not afraid to to say it, this upsets a lot of people because i go against the flow. I don't hold with any of this PC nonsense which is dragging this country down the u bend.
I believe the first duty of the government is to look after this country and it's people. I want a reformed NHS and proper care for the elderly. Nationalisation of all utilities, railways and critical infrastructure. We shouldn't be involved in other peoples wars. The enemy of the people is international big business/USA. I don't see any of that as fascism.
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“The enemy of the people is big business/USA”.
We’ve nothing to fear from Russia or China then?
We’re not ‘at war’ with Russia yet the President of that country sanctioned the poisoning of Sergia Skripal (& either by design or ‘accident’ also poisoning his daughter Yulia). On BRITISH SOIL.
The poison the state assassins used was the nerve agent Novichock, dispensed via a perfume which the assassins then ‘flippantly’ threw away. The perfume bottle ended up in the hands of a British citizen Dawn Sturgess a mother of two children aged 6 & 3. She died in agony after spraying the contents of the bottle onto her wrists. I’m sure you’ll recall these events happened in Salisbury, an archetypal English town.
Putin’s deadly ‘tentacles’ also reached out to Alexander Litvinenko who had criticised Putin. On this occasion the ‘elected assassin’ used Polonium as their ‘weapon’ of choice. On BRITISH SOIL.
Should the world not fear Russia & China at this point in history given their actions against Ukraine & Taiwan as opposed to ‘big business/USA?
Is there any accountability for what the Russians did on British soil? No.
Is there any accountability for China flooding world markets with ‘copies’ of high end brand merchandise & their unashamed chest beating of military build up that will “enable China to fight & win any war in the world”? Perhaps only your ‘nemesis’ the USA can put the brakes on China’s ‘technological’ war, its unwanted imports & its expansionism.
‘Keeping our noses out of other countries’ isn’t a luxury we have unless you’re prepared to stand idly by when now is the time that ‘good men’ need more than at any time in our history since WW11 to stand up & be counted.
I also believe Putin gave the o
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CCN3, how many people will suffer, including dying, in UK from the fuel crisis caused by sanctions and refusal to pay for Russian gas in Rubles? I'd call that an own goal of way greater significance than the Skripal poisoning, terrible as that was.
The US undoubtedly pushed Russia into all that's happening in Ukraine, albeit Russia been itching to get in there.The US precipitated the war just as much as Russia. I don't see how the US can be considered friends of the people here.
Dream on re the US stopping China. Currently it might have a chance, as the years roll on, no way.
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It will depend ultimately on economics. It always does. Money is first, last and everywhere inbetween when it comes to power, influence and military might. 'The Rise and Fall of Great Powers' by Andrew Kennedy is conclusive. A great leader can alter things for a while, but leaders last a limited time. The power of economics can't be held back indefinitely .
BobG
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Things going on in the background. UK involved in deregulation workers rights in Ukraine for some time. Fortunately so far resisted by trade unions there. Now Zelensky being encouraged to push this through.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/uk-sponsors-deregulation-of-labour-rights-in-ukraine/
All part of the western corporate grab on Ukraine, maximising profits for the companies due to be taking its resources. ie the Western Land Grab.
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Things going on in the background. UK involved in deregulation workers rights in Ukraine for some time. Fortunately so far resisted by trade unions there. Now Zelensky being encouraged to push this through.
https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/uk-sponsors-deregulation-of-labour-rights-in-ukraine/
All part of the western corporate grab on Ukraine, maximising profits for the companies due to be taking its resources. ie the Western Land Grab.
If only Russia hadn't staged an invasion then the government would be in a better place to sort it out.
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Seems you miss the point.
“The UK is effectively trying to undermine efforts of the International Labor Organization and the European Commission,” said EPSU, which claimed the UK is “financing propaganda” to “create a climate” against Ukrainian trade unions.
All part of making it more fertile for Western corporations and investors to make more money. Nothing whatsoever about what's best for Ukranianians. Like I said, one side of the land grab. I'm not at all saying the Russian land grab is good, just pointing out the fallacy of "freedom and democracy" on the other hand. Its all about corrupt gangsters whichever way you look at it.
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Seems you miss the point.
“The UK is effectively trying to undermine efforts of the International Labor Organization and the European Commission,” said EPSU, which claimed the UK is “financing propaganda” to “create a climate” against Ukrainian trade unions.
All part of making it more fertile for Western corporations and investors to make more money. Nothing whatsoever about what's best for Ukranianians. Like I said, one side of the land grab. I'm not at all saying the Russian land grab is good, just pointing out the fallacy of "freedom and democracy" on the other hand. Its all about corrupt gangsters whichever way you look at it.
So what you implying? That the invasion was only staged to protect workers right?
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Pointing out another means of how the West, the UK, is aiming to milk Ukraine. Part of the picture.
The war is a fog, the politics is endless, but the economics, or sheer greed as it is, is in yer face. Of course that goes for Russia and the West. Ukraine is the victim.
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And is it sheer greed that Russia wants to rule over Ukraine and sovereign country in its own right? Is it sheer greed to annex Crimea?
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Aguable about Crimea perhaps, but otherwise most definitely yes.
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Why some people on here - willingly, knowingly or not - are assisting Putin's war effort:
'Russia has identified Ukraine’s dependence on external support as its greatest vulnerability and has been looking for ways to undermine this support, largely by aggravating the economic crises facing the West.'
https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/ukraine/2022/08/russia-underestimating-ukraine-attrition
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Why some people on here - willingly, knowingly or not - are assisting Putin's war effort:
'Russia has identified Ukraine’s dependence on external support as its greatest vulnerability and has been looking for ways to undermine this support, largely by aggravating the economic crises facing the West.'
https://www.newstatesman.com/world/europe/ukraine/2022/08/russia-underestimating-ukraine-attrition
Not following you there. If anything in that article clarifies, you'll have to say as it's behind a paywall. Your quote doesn't help. Are you suggesting some here are helping aggravate the economic crisis in the West?
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Bought some blueberries from Morrisons last weekend.
Was surprised to see they were a product of Ukraine.
They were nice as well.
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Absolute barbarians.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1560320953359425536
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Have you got anything that shows anythng more than a few trucks there? We know there are soldiers there guarding it. I'm assuming they have transport to the plant. Seems strange that given Ukraine is claiming there is artillery there that there has been nothing in all this time to show that when there are Ukraines working there with phones, as is shown.
Obviously the goings on at the plant are a potential source of propoganda both ways. ie either weopons stored there, artillery operating there on the one hand, and on the other shelling of it. I have seen pics of shells there - maybe they were planted, though one I saw was well embedded in the roof.
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https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-fsb-says-ukraine-behind-murder-ultra-nationalists-daughter-2022-08-22/
Talking about long range missile that are wildly inaccurate... I wonder how this story will progress? Seems the woman who planted the bomb on the car was filmed and known to have immediately fled to Latvia.
Most likely a Ukraine agent of some sort. I can't see Latvia giving her up, despite her appearing to have committed terrorist actions, or terrorist as the world uses that term these days.
I guess capturing her will be one aim. That could be very messy. With an either or action on Ukraine officials, and possibly their families.
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"Seems that..." translating as "FSB claims that..."
Russian propaganda, brought to your phone unprocessed by BRR.
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https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-fsb-says-ukraine-behind-murder-ultra-nationalists-daughter-2022-08-22/
Talking about long range missile that are wildly inaccurate... I wonder how this story will progress? Seems the woman who planted the bomb on the car was filmed and known to have immediately fled to Latvia.
Most likely a Ukraine agent of some sort. I can't see Latvia giving her up, despite her appearing to have committed terrorist actions, or terrorist as the world uses that term these days.
I guess capturing her will be one aim. That could be very messy. With an either or action on Ukraine officials, and possibly their families.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russias-fsb-says-ukraine-behind-murder-ultra-nationalists-daughter-2022-08-22/
Talking about long range missile that are wildly inaccurate... I wonder how this story will progress? Seems the woman who planted the bomb on the car was filmed and known to have immediately fled to Latvia.
Most likely a Ukraine agent of some sort. I can't see Latvia giving her up, despite her appearing to have committed terrorist actions, or terrorist as the world uses that term these days.
I guess capturing her will be one aim. That could be very messy. With an either or action on Ukraine officials, and possibly their families.
When Ukraine puts stuff like this out its propoganda. When Russia does it - clearly true.
#bothsides #falseflag #exactlythesameasGrozny
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Grozny's the call Wilts.
The FSB very likely planned the apartment bombings as Putin's excuse to flatten Grozny.
3 FSB agents were caught red handed by the local police planting a bomb in a tower block in Ryazan. The official line was that they were on a practice mission.
There are folk in here who would have believed that like they uncritically repeat every line that comes from them in this conflict.
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Woman, Ukraine soldier, recently gets flat in the same block as the murdered girl. She then runs to Estonia immediately after. I wonder where the smoking gun lies? And that's without having seen the reported CCTV.
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Woman, Ukraine soldier, recently gets flat in the same block as the murdered girl. She then runs to Estonia immediately after. I wonder where the smoking gun lies? And that's without having seen the reported CCTV.
And whaddya know? She left her Azov Regiment ID card behind for the FSB to find.
What undercover special agent goes to enemy territory to commit an assassination with a paramilitary ID card?
But yeah BRR. Case closed.
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PS.
You have no evidence for anything in your last post other than the FSB clai s, which you take entirely without criticism.
And you lecture everyone else about balance?
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If, and it’s a big if, Ukrainian secret service was indeed behind this bombing, would they want the psychological propaganda for doing so? I’d say so.
Overtly they would deny it of course.
Russia have made their mind up though.
So this is a win for Ukraine? Psychologically, it’s a message that we can hurt you, deep into your heartland.
It could be a lone wolf, or independent cell from either side.
If it’s an internal terrorist attack by disenfranchised Russians, then that’s got to hurt. They would never admit that of course.
If it’s Got Ukrainian involvement then Zelensky would be pretty happy I’d imagine. Wether it was sanctioned or not.
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BST - seems you missed the point of my post. I was raising the issue, as reported, and then looking at what will happen from that. Whether or not she did do it is irrelevant to that, however I'm not hearing strong denials from Ukraine.
Notable that you just reacted in your usual way, like some Daily Express corresspondent. Much like the "Absolute barbarians." headline on a previous edition of your BS Times.
NR - interesting how Ukraine has seemed to deny a fair bit of its actions, eg bombings in Crimea. I suspect it's about letting people decide for themselves. By claiming secret service victories in Russian territory they might think they could be sanctioning retaliation.
Interesting also in this that there is an implicit acceptance of Crimea being Russian.
On this instance, killing the man's daughter, I don't think anyone is going to see this as a victory for Ukraine. If anything, it's embarressing.
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News out now that a partisan Russian republican group within Russia are claiming responsibility.
The plot thickens.
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News out now that a partisan Russian republican group within Russia are claiming responsibility.
The plot thickens.
Maybe Johnson will claim responsibility?
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BRR.
You are raising the issue as reported by and only by the FSB. Full stop.
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It seems that the Russian parliament will be discussing declaring Ukraine to be a terrorist state tomorrow. One significance there is that any state that then sponsors Ukraine through money or arms will be liable to sanctions. Good news for German woolly blanket sellers for one.
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Mind blowing..... Aggressors blame the attacked. Now where do I recall that happening before.....
BobG
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Meanwhile the head news presenter on Russian state TV, who apparently is very close to Putin, effectively admitted yesterday that Russia carried out the Salisbury poisonings.
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Putin, the man responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent Ukrainians has said the murder of one Russian woman in a car bomb is vile, what a phsyco he is if he really believes that
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Stalin said 1 death is a tragedy. 500,00 deaths is a statistic.
Putin models himself on Stalin.
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I'd class any state that shells or shoots it's own people a terrorist state, seems there some who think differently?
But what does the naming matter, except to the barmy US and friends? Its the legal processes it allows that counts. Here it's gas and Germany. In the US it's torture, waterboarding and basically illegal stuff.
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Wtf.
Russian nuclear power giant Rosatom will begin constructing two new nuclear reactors in Hungary in the coming weeks, Hungary's foreign minister said.
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If I were Putin I'd be trying to break the EC, the western cabal. Hungary is an obvious, obvious entry point. This is a wet dream for Putin.
BobG
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Easy and willing entry point Bob
Although the deal was done in 2014 (presumably before the Crimea annexation?) and nuclear EU sanctions do not cover Russian nuclear power
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-62695938
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If I were Putin I'd be trying to break the EC, the western cabal. Hungary is an obvious, obvious entry point. This is a wet dream for Putin.
BobG
They could have already done it Bob, but without an inquiry we won't know.
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Dutch
The deal was done with Hungary, not the EU.
Sooner or later, Hungary will be thrown out. It's a fascist cuckoo in the European nest.
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Dutch
The deal was done with Hungary, not the EU.
Sooner or later, Hungary will be thrown out. It's a fascist cuckoo in the European nest.
Sorry my mistake, misread it. It didn't make much sense :blush:
Agree with the sentiment re Hungary, but if the EU sanctions don't cover the Russian Nuclear industry then it is difficult to see this being the catalyst.
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So did I first time round. Not the clearest text!
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For a member state to be thrown out it would require a change of treaty, which all member states have to vote in favour of , unanimously. Including Hungary themselves. Like the proverbial Turkey voting for Xmas. Can’t see it ever happening. Unless they wanted it of course.
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For a member state to be thrown out it would require a change of treaty, which all member states have to vote in favour of , unanimously. Including Hungary themselves. Like the proverbial Turkey voting for Xmas. Can’t see it ever happening. Unless they wanted it of course.
They couldn't stop freedom of movement and close national borders - until covid came and they closed national borders and stopped freedom of movement. It will happen if the people in charge want it to.
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For a member state to be thrown out it would require a change of treaty, which all member states have to vote in favour of , unanimously. Including Hungary themselves. Like the proverbial Turkey voting for Xmas. Can’t see it ever happening. Unless they wanted it of course.
They couldn't stop freedom of movement and close national borders - until covid came and they closed national borders and stopped freedom of movement. It will happen if the people in charge want it to.
Kinda like bullying, it is the way the world works.
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No. It's kinda like saying if you don't play by the f**king rules that everyone else does, you don't get the benefits.
Someone who was a member of a golf club wouldn't expect to be tolerated if they shit on the bar after every round.
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Ukraine launches an offensive to retake Kherson, reports of Russian Para’s and separatist running away, leaving there ammo behind.
They don’t like the odds evened out these Russians do they?
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No. It's kinda like saying if you don't play by the f**king rules that everyone else does, you don't get the benefits.
Someone who was a member of a golf club wouldn't expect to be tolerated if they shit on the bar after every round.
I was talking about the way the Lords of the world, the ones you worship, can change the rules when they like to suit themselves and screw anyone else who was playing by the rules that were in place when they joined. Keep up.
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Reports of several hundred Ukraine commandos from across the Dnieper river landing in the town immediately adjacent to the nuclear power station, to its east, just when the inspectors arrived there.
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Reports of several hundred Ukraine commandos from across the Dnieper river landing in the town immediately adjacent to the nuclear power station, to its east, just when the inspectors arrived there.
Reports from?
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Mesanwhile, it's astonishing how dangerous windows become when you reach a certain level of importance in Putin's Russia.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62750584
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Reports of several hundred Ukraine commandos from across the Dnieper river landing in the town immediately adjacent to the nuclear power station, to its east, just when the inspectors arrived there.
Reports from?
Not from your useless sources obviously!
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Why not just post your source and let folk decide if they think it is trustworthy?
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https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/ukraine-nuclear-plant-inspectors-shelling-zaporizhzhia-russia-rcna45811
Yes its primarily from Russia, tho widely echoed via less state controlled sources too. We'll see what transpires. I was offering it as a report.
Ukraine desperately needs the electricity. The inspection was good distractive cover. If true its an own goal, tho obviously Ukraine and those that use its info - most western media - won't report it if unsucessful. If untrue its an example of Russian game playing.
Report also that a few Ukraine are captured.
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"Primarily from Russia"="Entirely from Russian MoD". Again.
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"Primarily from Russia"="Entirely from Russian MoD". Again.
Tho has to be said, much of what you are digesting, and referring to on here is entirely from the Ukraine War Office, albeit with a touch of gloss from your chosen media source to make it look credible.
Obviously Russian Mod is not to be trusted as such, but there are truths too in what they say. Seems to be backed up by movements on the ground. Either way, I said it was a report of interest. Do as you please.
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Putin not attending Gorbechev Funeral, he’s either scared he’ll get bunped off or he really is ill and doesn’t want the West to see it
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Or is so full of loathing for Gorbechev and his break-up of the Soviet Union that he refuses to show him any respect, even in death. That would fit entirely with the M.O. of Putin.
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It’s ‘Gorbachev’.
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Thank you, Colin C. I wasn't sure and couldn't be bothered to look it up, so copied Filo.
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Wasn’t sure how to spell it, it’s not really that important and you obviously knew who I meant, so can’t see the big deal really
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Anyone thinking Ukraine is succeeding with its offensive in Kherson, or was that a very costly attempt in lives and armour to appear able to succeed so as to woo its partners in the West to give more weapons?
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Ukraine's first lady Olena Zelenska on BBC quoted as saying, 'As UK counts pennies, we count casualties'.
Oh sorry about that. Sorry we aren't doing enough. I'm about done with Ukraine now tbh.
Yes it's horrific but it isn't great for many people in the UK either.
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Dunkirk Spirit, eh?
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Dunkirk Spirit, eh?
So how are YOU helping? All that is happening is that the Tories are giving Ukraine loads of money whilst telling us that we should be grateful it is not us at war.
Instead of taking out the people responsible for the war and getting everyone involved. It is pandering. Either go all in and end the war or start looking out for British people and stop telling us we need to be grateful or need to do more.
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Dunkirk Spirit, eh?
So how are YOU helping? All that is happening is that the Tories are giving Ukraine loads of money whilst telling us that we should be grateful it is not us at war.
Instead of taking out the people responsible for the war and getting everyone involved. It is pandering. Either go all in and end the war or start looking out for British people and stop telling us we need to be grateful or need to do more.
By 'go in and end the war' do you mean 'go in and start World War III'?
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Anyone thinking Ukraine is succeeding with its offensive in Kherson, or was that a very costly attempt in lives and armour to appear able to succeed so as to woo its partners in the West to give more weapons?
1.Yes.
2.No, its an ongoing offensive.
3.Lots of weapons, including more HIMARS have already been promised but not yet delivered.
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Dunkirk Spirit, eh?
So how are YOU helping? All that is happening is that the Tories are giving Ukraine loads of money whilst telling us that we should be grateful it is not us at war.
Instead of taking out the people responsible for the war and getting everyone involved. It is pandering. Either go all in and end the war or start looking out for British people and stop telling us we need to be grateful or need to do more.
By 'go in and end the war' do you mean 'go in and start World War III'?
Isn't that what Ukraine wants? It seems they want to tell us to do more and won't be satisfied until the cavalry arrives. How else will the war end anyway if the perpetrator is allowed to continue it?
Most people are happy for the UK to keep giving Ukraine cash because that means they themselves don't have to be involved in a world war. Meanwhile, the war continues. Now where is that Dunkirk spirit BST was on about? :rolleyes:
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There's no favourable endgame for anyone in all this. This war can't be won by either side; it will go on for years as did the wars in Vietnam and Afghanistan.
In the meantime, Truss's plans to tackle the cost of living crisis won't stop people from freezing and starving next Winter, and there'll be anarchy on the streets.
According to some of the experts on Sky News last night, the effect Covid had on the economy, and particularly the hospitality industry, was nothing compared to what's coming down the road.
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That's not ideal but meanwhile i want our new PM to put British people first, not Ukrainians. Harsh i know but we aren't Ukraine. We are Britain and we have our own problems. By all means help though. I also don't want to be criticised by the likes of Ukrainian first lady simply for living in England and not Ukraine and thus not being at war. It's not our bloody fault!
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Colin
It's really simple.
If the West doesn't stand up to Putin now, the problem doesn't go away. His aim is to restore what he sees as Russia's Historic Destiny to dominate Europe. That includes us by the way.
You don't have the choice between supporting Ukraine and having it hard, or abandoning them and having it easy.
The choice is between supporting Ukraine and having it hard. Or a andining them and having it harder than you could imagine in your worst dreams in future.
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Colin
It's really simple.
If the West doesn't stand up to Putin now, the problem doesn't go away. His aim is to restore what he sees as Russia's Historic Destiny to dominate Europe. That includes us by the way.
You don't have the choice between supporting Ukraine and having it hard, or abandoning them and having it easy.
The choice is between supporting Ukraine and having it hard. Or a andining them and having it harder than you could imagine in your worst dreams in future.
What if i'm sick the back teeth of hearing about Ukraine? Does that make me a bad person?
Oh and you can call me Andy, Billy. ;)
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You could help yourself and not discuss it, but that wouldn't be you would it? Russia are going to be part of everyone's live for some time until it's not. Putin cannot beat the whole of Europe which is why he's tried every which way to sow division, with some success. The 'west' needs to see him off however long it takes imho.
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You could help yourself and not discuss it, but that wouldn't be you would it? Russia are going to be part of everyone's live for some time until it's not. Putin cannot beat the whole of Europe which is why he's tried every which way to sow division, with some success. The 'west' needs to see him off however long it takes imho.
You make a very valid point SR. I guess i'm like the media who constantly bang on about being sick of hearing about Meghan & Harry but then proceed to talk about them all the time. Point taken. I just don't like being made to feel guilty about having a life free from war just because another country is at war. Take your points though.
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Ha, don't get me started on the media
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Colin
It's really simple.
If the West doesn't stand up to Putin now, the problem doesn't go away. His aim is to restore what he sees as Russia's Historic Destiny to dominate Europe. That includes us by the way.
You don't have the choice between supporting Ukraine and having it hard, or abandoning them and having it easy.
The choice is between supporting Ukraine and having it hard. Or a andining them and having it harder than you could imagine in your worst dreams in future.
Brainwashing right there! :lol:
First of all fear of....
Next more fear....
Accepting poverty for some out there reasoning... don't forget to tug forlock.
Need to suffer or.... we'll suffer even more. Praise be, I hear the spirit of Croomwell, or some churchy state control nonsense.
And the not just fear but your worst nightmare - repent!
Oh, Lordy BST you are possessed.
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You could help yourself and not discuss it, but that wouldn't be you would it? Russia are going to be part of everyone's live for some time until it's not. Putin cannot beat the whole of Europe which is why he's tried every which way to sow division, with some success. The 'west' needs to see him off however long it takes imho.
The problem there is we are possibly going into the worst recession for some time, many will get seriously ill - ie die - from this. Seems the very same folks who were in favour of saving lives with covid lockdown are in favour of killing them with feeding this recession, AND sending cash to Ukraine. All on the back of guess what - FEAR. "Putin gonna invade all of Europe" etc.....
It's twisted, it's being brainwashed, it's insecure. Not only that, it's feeding the very monster they're told to be afraid of. Someone should make a movie about this.... wait.....
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Exactly BRR. We should appease a murderous fascist dictator who wishes to annihilate an entire country and its people - because thats' where 4% of our gas comes from.
4%.
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Some details here on Ukraine's current 'offensive'. Dont mistake them not taking lots of ground straight away as 'a failure' - they are going to charge in like the Somme.
It's going to be a long and drawn out fight against a much larger force, aimed at breaking their logistics, supply and ability to hold ground, described by this guy 'accelerated attrition... build up, tempt in, destroy'.
https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1566326321763975168
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First of all fear of....
Next more fear....
Fear based on previous experience is not irrational
There are plenty old enough to remember the country Putin in his own words is trying to emulate militarily invading indisputably sovereign counties in 1956 (Hungary) and Czechoslovakia (1968)
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Some details here on Ukraine's current 'offensive'. Dont mistake them not taking lots of ground straight away as 'a failure' - they are going to charge in like the Somme.
It's going to be a long and drawn out fight against a much larger force, aimed at breaking their logistics, supply and ability to hold ground, described by this guy 'accelerated attrition... build up, tempt in, destroy'.
https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1566326321763975168
If that analysis is correct on saying Russia has flooded Kherson with reinforcements, that will be the biggest tactical blunder of the war to date.
Kherson city is on the east bank of the Dneister.
With the accurate artillery systems the Ukrainians now have, they can damage/destroy bridges linking the city with the main Russian forces in the east.
Then the Russians can't resupply Kherson.
There's no need for the Ukrainians to fight their way into Kherson. The Russians willq be starved out eventually, and they'll lose a massive amount of supplies to artillery attack because they'll be sitting ducks if they try to ferry stuff in over the river.
This is a massive period of the war. If Russia loses Kherson, its strategy of taking the whole southern coast past Odessa, and linking up with Transnistria in Moldova is finished. And worse, Crimea then becomes vulnerable to having its supply lines cut off.
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First of all fear of....
Next more fear....
Fear based on previous experience is not irrational
There are plenty old enough to remember the country Putin in his own words is trying to emulate militarily invading indisputably sovereign counties in 1956 (Hungary) and Czechoslovakia (1968)
Yeah but...
The West has also done some bad things. Therefore both sides are equally culpable.
I think that summarises the logic.
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First of all fear of....
Next more fear....
Fear based on previous experience is not irrational
There are plenty old enough to remember the country Putin in his own words is trying to emulate militarily invading indisputably sovereign counties in 1956 (Hungary) and Czechoslovakia (1968)
Your "previous experience" comment got me thinking Dutch.
We have loads of previous experience in Europe on the sort of ethno-nationalist justification for invasion that Russia has used.
It comes naturally when nationalism takes control of the narrative in a continent with messy boundaries between countries.
Putin isn't unique in being an aggressive ethno-nationalist warmaker.
In the first half of the 20th century alone there were similar conflicts driven by nationalistic aggression between:
Germany and France over Alsace-Lorraine
Italy and Austria over the Irredenta.
Serbia and Austria over control of the Balkans
Greece and Turkey over Smyrna
Germany and Czechoslovakia over the Sudetenland
USSR and Poland over east Poland
Germany and Poland over west Poland
USSR and Finland over east Finland
USSR and the Baltic States over their independence.
Wars like the Russian invasion of Ukraine used to be commonplace when nationslism called the shots.
The single biggest aim of the EU at its birth, was to provide a strong alternative to nationalism, in order to prevent these disasters. For all its many faults, the EU has been superbly effective in this.
I fear that nationalism is on the rise again, embraced by people too young to remember what it led to in the past.
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Some details here on Ukraine's current 'offensive'. Dont mistake them not taking lots of ground straight away as 'a failure' - they are going to charge in like the Somme.
It's going to be a long and drawn out fight against a much larger force, aimed at breaking their logistics, supply and ability to hold ground, described by this guy 'accelerated attrition... build up, tempt in, destroy'.
https://twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1566326321763975168
I agree that would be a good plan, though it doesn't appear that Russia is letting up in its defence there, and is in some places advancing, though it makes more sense for them to let Ukraine forces to come onto them making themselves vulnerable.
Ukraine not taking a lot of ground? In their only advance in the Kherson region, Ukraine currently has a lot of troops and armour over the river in a bridgehead just south of Bila Krynytsia. With reports of Russia having taken out the three pontoon bridges they used, those troops may be able to make it back but the armour is currently trapped there, getting heavily shelled from three sides. It is possible that ukraine will try to put more troops in that area, though they are very vulnerable there so it would be a lot of their lives lost even if successful.
The overall picture will unfold, and maybe Ukraine can push on. One clue that this may be unlikely is the Ukraine reports of Russian reinforcement from its 3rd Army Corps, that have been based in Russia, to the area between Zaporizhzhia and Donetsk. This is an area will relatively little recent activity, so if the Russians felt there was a vulnerability around Kherson that's where they would go. Obviously they would still be able to move to Kherson if needed there, but that's not what the Ukraines are saying.
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.....The single biggest aim of the EU at its birth, was to provide a strong alternative to nationalism, in order to prevent these disasters. For all its many faults, the EU has been superbly effective in this.
I fear that nationalism is on the rise again, embraced by people too young to remember what it led to in the past.
I agree that the EU has so far been very successful in this though it is partly responsible for the Ukraine situation. I know you choose to ignore that side of affairs, but it is a fact. It could have helped create a situation of balance in Ukraine which is a "front line" nation. Note both it's name and history.
It could have been a place where links between the EU and Russia flourished.
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First of all fear of....
Next more fear....
Fear based on previous experience is not irrational
There are plenty old enough to remember the country Putin in his own words is trying to emulate militarily invading indisputably sovereign counties in 1956 (Hungary) and Czechoslovakia (1968)
The world is in a different situation, not least NATO being in the mix. It is irrational fear spread to support a failed mess created by the EU, NATO, NATO countries, and with Russia itching for the chance of the gift it was given through all of this.
It's whipped up fear engendered to give money to the elite. This is exactly what is happening, oh yeah, and loads of ordinary people, including those in uniform, dying too. Plus hatred and nationalism being fed all around. Mental.
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''Australian motorists 'indirectly' fueling Russia's Ukraine invasion, CREA advocacy group claims''
''The Centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air (CREA), a Finland-based advocacy group, says nations such as Australia and the US are – in spite of bans – continuing to receive Russian oil via refineries on the subcontinent.
Indian imports of Russian crude oil have soared since Moscow launched its invasion of Ukraine in February and CREA said many of those barrels were re-exported as refined products to countries including Australia''
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-06/australian-motorists-indirectly-fuelling-russias-ukraine-war/101407358
It seems obvious now it has been pointed out, if confirmed then hopefully public pressure will come to the fore.
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Are you saying people will drive less to save Ukraine?
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Well i won't. I'm actually getting quite sick of being made guilty to feel sorry for British people in this incessant quest to brainwash us into thinking that we don't matter and only other people in other countries matter.
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Do you think we are suffering and sacrificing on a scale remotely close to 1% of what the people in Ukraine are going through?
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Do you think we are suffering and sacrificing on a scale remotely close to 1% of what the people in Ukraine are going through?
Some of the people in Ukraine you mean?
Suffering is happening all around the world in various guises but because it doesn't affect us then we aren't interested in that. We only seem interested in something that could potentially cause us problems. Like as depicted on the 'wrong flag' cartoon by Bob Moran who got it bang on.
There is suffering in this country daily. To make comparisons is to accept the suffering of people in Britain as acceptable suffering but the suffering of people in Ukraine as unacceptable suffering. When both are unacceptable.
Except we aren't allowed to say that we are suffering because only others in other countries are suffering apparently.
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Ukrainians face years of battling against a fascist invader. Thousands homes have been destroyed. 6 million people have been displaced. Their main source of electricity had been turned into a literal battlefield.
We are being asked to pay more for our energy.
I suggest you just reflect on the detail of the two sides. And may I sincerely suggest that you'd help your health if you stayed away from GB News and Bob Moran, whose entire business model is based on winding up the blood pressure of a certain section of our society.
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Bob Morans cartoons are 100% reflective of what is going on in society and the world in general. Just my opinion. They make perfect sense, unlike much of what we've been told from lefties, scientists, politicians etc in the last few years.
He just draws the other side to what we are fed. If the MSM covered both sides of all debates and acknowledged for example that for X amount of people who get a Covid jab, there will naturally be some who die from it even though rare, then some of us wouldn't feel the need to find someone who has an alternative view that is allowed to be aired.
Like Ukraine. We are fed the line that Zelensky is a hero when he's a former tv star who is lording it up, renting his private villa out whilst his wife has expensive dresses and appears in celebrity magazines.
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Bob Moran and GB News are not on your side. They are using your anger for their own purposes. They both feed and feed off the feeling of helplessness that people natural experience when faced with overwhelming problems. Their aim is to convince people that there's a conspiracy against them personally. And like all excellent political propaganda, they do it in a way that makes you feel they are agreeing with you. When in fact they are directing you.
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Bob Moran and GB News are not on your side. They are using your anger for their own purposes. They both feed and feed off the feeling of helplessness that people natural experience when faced with overwhelming problems. Their aim is to convince people that there's a conspiracy against them personally. And like all excellent political propaganda, they do it in a way that makes you feel they are agreeing with you. When in fact they are directing you.
Complete nonsense.
At the start of Covid i hadn't heard of talkradio or GB news. I watched BBC and Skynews and listened to 5 live. As Covid progressed i became increasingly exasperated as to why these MSM weren't thinking like me and why the MSM journos weren't asking the questions i wanted asking of the scientists and government. When the Labour party started coming out with wanting MORE lockdowns and restrictions instead of LESS, which would have been the opposite view and my view at that time, before i'd been exposed to any of talkradio and gb news, then i knew then that i was being manipulated and nobody seemed to not only represent my views but also to stick up for them.
Then i saw a trickling of people who did have my views on MSM and they were used by MSM simply to be held up as some nutjobs or cranks.
Then i found talkradio and GB News
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Bob Moran and GB News are not on your side. They are using your anger for their own purposes. They both feed and feed off the feeling of helplessness that people natural experience when faced with overwhelming problems. Their aim is to convince people that there's a conspiracy against them personally. And like all excellent political propaganda, they do it in a way that makes you feel they are agreeing with you. When in fact they are directing you.
Whereas you would never wish to direct anyone and tell them the 'right' thing to think.
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You weren't being manipulated. You were caught up in a massive problem, where most politicians were genuinely and honestly trying to prevent us having half a million people die over a couple of months.
People like Moran and Neil Oliver now make their living telling you that should never have happened and you are right to think it was all a conspiracy. They feed off your helpless anger.
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Ukrainians face years of battling against a fascist invader. Thousands homes have been destroyed. 6 million people have been displaced. Their main source of electricity had been turned into a literal battlefield.
We are being asked to pay more for our energy.
I suggest you just reflect on the detail of the two sides. And may I sincerely suggest that you'd help your health if you stayed away from GB News and Bob Moran, whose entire business model is based on winding up the blood pressure of a certain section of our society.
So you're happy for the hard pressed British public to be pushed into energy poverty just so the likes of you can say 'Take that Vlad'? It's not our war. If you're so happy for us all to pay the price to support the pirate regime in Kiev then i'll send you my gas bill. Why should i pay more to support your causes?
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Bob Moran and GB News are not on your side. They are using your anger for their own purposes. They both feed and feed off the feeling of helplessness that people natural experience when faced with overwhelming problems. Their aim is to convince people that there's a conspiracy against them personally. And like all excellent political propaganda, they do it in a way that makes you feel they are agreeing with you. When in fact they are directing you.
Whereas you would never wish to direct anyone and tell them the 'right' thing to think.
Every opinion I ever give is backed up with evidence. You're free to agree with it or explain why you don't.
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Ukrainians face years of battling against a fascist invader. Thousands homes have been destroyed. 6 million people have been displaced. Their main source of electricity had been turned into a literal battlefield.
We are being asked to pay more for our energy.
I suggest you just reflect on the detail of the two sides. And may I sincerely suggest that you'd help your health if you stayed away from GB News and Bob Moran, whose entire business model is based on winding up the blood pressure of a certain section of our society.
So you're happy for the hard pressed British public to be pushed into energy poverty just so the likes of you can say 'Take that Vlad'? It's not our war. If you're so happy for us all to pay the price to support the pirate regime in Kiev then i'll send you my gas bill. Why should i pay more to support your causes?
And once again your bile blinds you to what I'm actually saying.
We have an imperialist fascist dictator in East Europe. He currently has Europe by the balls because he supplies their gas. Our gas price has gone up because he has cut off gas to Europe, so they are paying more on global markets for what is left. Pushing up the proces we pay.
Our fuel prices have precisely f**k all to do with our own national stance on Ukraine. If we 100% supported Putin tomorrow, our gas price wouldn't come down by a penny. Because we don't get any gas from Russia. It's about the stance of Germany and Poland and the like. So I think what you mean, when you sit down and think about it, is that you disagree with THEIR policy on Ukraine.
Let's do a little thought experiment. You reckon Germany should sit on its hands and let Putin do what he wants because the alternative of dealing with big fuel bills is too hard?
What happens next, when Putin destroys Ukraine and realises he can bully Germany into doing what he wants.
Work through the consequences.
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You weren't being manipulated. You were caught up in a massive problem, where most politicians were genuinely and honestly trying to prevent us having half a million people die over a couple of months.
People like Moran and Neil Oliver now make their living telling you that should never have happened and you are right to think it was all a conspiracy. They feed off your helpless anger.
I'm not saying it was a conspiracy theory. I'm saying that human greed and ego and a lack of leadership and integrity from pretty much all politicians on both parties as well as scientists and health bosses etc contributed to why it was allowed to happen. All perspective was lost, especially about how dangerous the virus was and the general public, such as yourself were the ones manipulated unfortunately Billy.
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Ukrainians face years of battling against a fascist invader. Thousands homes have been destroyed. 6 million people have been displaced. Their main source of electricity had been turned into a literal battlefield.
We are being asked to pay more for our energy.
I suggest you just reflect on the detail of the two sides. And may I sincerely suggest that you'd help your health if you stayed away from GB News and Bob Moran, whose entire business model is based on winding up the blood pressure of a certain section of our society.
So you're happy for the hard pressed British public to be pushed into energy poverty just so the likes of you can say 'Take that Vlad'? It's not our war. If you're so happy for us all to pay the price to support the pirate regime in Kiev then i'll send you my gas bill. Why should i pay more to support your causes?
And once again your bike blinds you to what I'm actually saying.
We have an imperialist fascist dictator in East Europe. He currently has Europe by the balls because he supplies their gas. Our gas price has gone up because he has cut off gas to Europe, so they are paying more on global markets for what is left. Pushing up the proces we pay.
Our fuel prices have precisely f**k all to do with our own national stance on Ukraine. If we 100% supported Putin tomorrow, our gas price wouldn't come down by a penny. Because we don't get any gas from Russia. It's about the stance of Germany and Poland and the like. So I think what you mean, when you sit down and think about it, is that you disagree with THEIR policy on Ukraine.
Let's do a little thought experiment. You reckon Germany should sit on its hands and let Putin do what he wants because the alternative of dealing with big fuel bills is too hard?
What happens next, when Putin destroys Ukraine and realises he can bully Germany into doing what he wants.
Work through the consequences.
We could have not sanctioned Russia and bought their gas. The West have done all the bullying and now they don't like it when Russia stands up for itself.
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If Putin destroys Ukraine and then goes for Germany then action must be taken. Like it should have been 6 bloody months ago.
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You weren't being manipulated. You were caught up in a massive problem, where most politicians were genuinely and honestly trying to prevent us having half a million people die over a couple of months.
People like Moran and Neil Oliver now make their living telling you that should never have happened and you are right to think it was all a conspiracy. They feed off your helpless anger.
I'm not saying it was a conspiracy theory. I'm saying that human greed and ego and a lack of leadership and integrity from pretty much all politicians on both parties as well as scientists and health bosses etc contributed to why it was allowed to happen. All perspective was lost, especially about how dangerous the virus was and the general public, such as yourself were the ones manipulated unfortunately Billy.
You say we overestimated how dangerous the virus was. What evidence do you base that on? I will point out once again that there was only one city in the entire world where there was a totally uncontrolled outbreak. And that resulted in 0.6% of the entire population dying in the space of 6 weeks, and the entire health service of the region damn near collapsing.
Why do you think that wouldn't have happened here without extreme measures to control the virus?
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If Putin destroys Ukraine and then goes for Germany then action must be taken. Like it should have been 6 bloody months ago.
But he won't. This wouldn't have happened if the clown Zelensky had wanted to join NATO and threatened Russian security.
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Ukrainians face years of battling against a fascist invader. Thousands homes have been destroyed. 6 million people have been displaced. Their main source of electricity had been turned into a literal battlefield.
We are being asked to pay more for our energy.
I suggest you just reflect on the detail of the two sides. And may I sincerely suggest that you'd help your health if you stayed away from GB News and Bob Moran, whose entire business model is based on winding up the blood pressure of a certain section of our society.
So you're happy for the hard pressed British public to be pushed into energy poverty just so the likes of you can say 'Take that Vlad'? It's not our war. If you're so happy for us all to pay the price to support the pirate regime in Kiev then i'll send you my gas bill. Why should i pay more to support your causes?
And once again your bike blinds you to what I'm actually saying.
We have an imperialist fascist dictator in East Europe. He currently has Europe by the balls because he supplies their gas. Our gas price has gone up because he has cut off gas to Europe, so they are paying more on global markets for what is left. Pushing up the proces we pay.
Our fuel prices have precisely f**k all to do with our own national stance on Ukraine. If we 100% supported Putin tomorrow, our gas price wouldn't come down by a penny. Because we don't get any gas from Russia. It's about the stance of Germany and Poland and the like. So I think what you mean, when you sit down and think about it, is that you disagree with THEIR policy on Ukraine.
Let's do a little thought experiment. You reckon Germany should sit on its hands and let Putin do what he wants because the alternative of dealing with big fuel bills is too hard?
What happens next, when Putin destroys Ukraine and realises he can bully Germany into doing what he wants.
Work through the consequences.
We could have not sanctioned Russia and bought their gas. The West have done all the bullying and now they don't like it when Russia stands up for itself.
How do we buy their gas? Pop over to Moscow with half a dozen butane canisters?
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If Putin destroys Ukraine and then goes for Germany then action must be taken. Like it should have been 6 bloody months ago.
Please just stop and take a breath. Then reflect on whether you really mean what you are saying. Ukrainians face years of battling against a fascist invader. Thousands homes have been destroyed. 6 million people have been displaced. Their main source of electricity had been turned into a literal battlefield.
We are being asked to pay more for our energy.
I suggest you just reflect on the detail of the two sides. And may I sincerely suggest that you'd help your health if you stayed away from GB News and Bob Moran, whose entire business model is based on winding up the blood pressure of a certain section of our society.
So you're happy for the hard pressed British public to be pushed into energy poverty just so the likes of you can say 'Take that Vlad'? It's not our war. If you're so happy for us all to pay the price to support the pirate regime in Kiev then i'll send you my gas bill. Why should i pay more to support your causes?
And once again your bike blinds you to what I'm actually saying.
We have an imperialist fascist dictator in East Europe. He currently has Europe by the balls because he supplies their gas. Our gas price has gone up because he has cut off gas to Europe, so they are paying more on global markets for what is left. Pushing up the proces we pay.
Our fuel prices have precisely f**k all to do with our own national stance on Ukraine. If we 100% supported Putin tomorrow, our gas price wouldn't come down by a penny. Because we don't get any gas from Russia. It's about the stance of Germany and Poland and the like. So I think what you mean, when you sit down and think about it, is that you disagree with THEIR policy on Ukraine.
Let's do a little thought experiment. You reckon Germany should sit on its hands and let Putin do what he wants because the alternative of dealing with big fuel bills is too hard?
What happens next, when Putin destroys Ukraine and realises he can bully Germany into doing what he wants.
Work through the consequences.
We could have not sanctioned Russia and bought their gas. The West have done all the bullying and now they don't like it when Russia stands up for itself.
How do we buy their gas? Pop over to Moscow with half a dozen butane canisters?
And assuming we COULD magically transport billions of therms of gas from Russia to the UK (we can't) what would happen the next time Putin did something that we felts was against our strategic interests? We'd have to suck it up, or he'd cut off the gas.
What you inadvertently propose is that we become a vassal state under Russian control.
I say "inadvertently"...
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You weren't being manipulated. You were caught up in a massive problem, where most politicians were genuinely and honestly trying to prevent us having half a million people die over a couple of months.
People like Moran and Neil Oliver now make their living telling you that should never have happened and you are right to think it was all a conspiracy. They feed off your helpless anger.
I'm not saying it was a conspiracy theory. I'm saying that human greed and ego and a lack of leadership and integrity from pretty much all politicians on both parties as well as scientists and health bosses etc contributed to why it was allowed to happen. All perspective was lost, especially about how dangerous the virus was and the general public, such as yourself were the ones manipulated unfortunately Billy.
You say we overestimated how dangerous the virus was. What evidence do you base that on? I will point out once again that there was only one city in the entire world where there was a totally uncontrolled outbreak. And that resulted in 0.6% of the entire population dying in the space of 6 weeks, and the entire health service of the region damn near collapsing.
Why do you think that wouldn't have happened here without extreme measures to control the virus?
No restrictions were needed after the summer and yet we had two further lockdowns and restrictions which quite obviously weren't necessary and it was obvious at the time to people with a brain that it wasn't necessary. First lockdown ok i get it, until we knew more about the virus and it became clear it was mild to most and the summer was out of the way. After that, the MSM and Labour and NHS and Scientists kept calling for lockdowns and measures. They were even doing the same when Johnson decided not to go along with it anymore and guess what? No probs!
There are people still calling for restrictions now when everyone has been getting on with it for ages. These people have unresolved control issues or need to see a mental health practitioner.
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You weren't being manipulated. You were caught up in a massive problem, where most politicians were genuinely and honestly trying to prevent us having half a million people die over a couple of months.
People like Moran and Neil Oliver now make their living telling you that should never have happened and you are right to think it was all a conspiracy. They feed off your helpless anger.
I'm not saying it was a conspiracy theory. I'm saying that human greed and ego and a lack of leadership and integrity from pretty much all politicians on both parties as well as scientists and health bosses etc contributed to why it was allowed to happen. All perspective was lost, especially about how dangerous the virus was and the general public, such as yourself were the ones manipulated unfortunately Billy.
You say we overestimated how dangerous the virus was. What evidence do you base that on? I will point out once again that there was only one city in the entire world where there was a totally uncontrolled outbreak. And that resulted in 0.6% of the entire population dying in the space of 6 weeks, and the entire health service of the region damn near collapsing.
Why do you think that wouldn't have happened here without extreme measures to control the virus?
No restrictions were needed after the summer and yet we had two further lockdowns and restrictions which quite obviously weren't necessary and it was obvious at the time to people with a brain that it wasn't necessary. First lockdown ok i get it, until we knew more about the virus and it became clear it was mild to most and the summer was out of the way. After that, the MSM and Labour and NHS and Scientists kept calling for lockdowns and measures. They were even doing the same when Johnson decided not to go along with it anymore and guess what? No probs!
There are people still calling for restrictions now when everyone has been getting on with it for ages. These people have unresolved control issues or need to see a mental health practitioner.
Why do you say we knew COVID was mild after the first lockdown?
COVID killed 75,000 people in the winter of 2020/21. Even WITH a (late) lockdown. How many do you think would have died without action being taken? How do you think the NHS would have coped without action?
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Which was the main reasons for the ongoing restrictions. Because our NHS is shit and can't cope with anything, let alone a pandemic. NHS bosses agitated for restrictions because they knew they were failing at their jobs but it was easier to stop people from living their lives than do their jobs properly and ensure we have a 'world beating' health service.
Restrictions and locking down after the first had nothing to do with the virus.
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By the time the second full lockdown came in, daily COVID deaths were doubling every fortnight. They peaked 10 days after the start of the lockdown at nearly 10,000 a week.
What do you think would have happened if we hadn't had the lockdown?
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This thread needs to get back on topic.
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You weren't being manipulated. You were caught up in a massive problem, where most politicians were genuinely and honestly trying to prevent us having half a million people die over a couple of months.
People like Moran and Neil Oliver now make their living telling you that should never have happened and you are right to think it was all a conspiracy. They feed off your helpless anger.
I'm not saying it was a conspiracy theory. I'm saying that human greed and ego and a lack of leadership and integrity from pretty much all politicians on both parties as well as scientists and health bosses etc contributed to why it was allowed to happen. All perspective was lost, especially about how dangerous the virus was and the general public, such as yourself were the ones manipulated unfortunately Billy.
You say we overestimated how dangerous the virus was. What evidence do you base that on? I will point out once again that there was only one city in the entire world where there was a totally uncontrolled outbreak. And that resulted in 0.6% of the entire population dying in the space of 6 weeks, and the entire health service of the region damn near collapsing.
Why do you think that wouldn't have happened here without extreme measures to control the virus?
No restrictions were needed after the summer and yet we had two further lockdowns and restrictions which quite obviously weren't necessary and it was obvious at the time to people with a brain that it wasn't necessary. First lockdown ok i get it, until we knew more about the virus and it became clear it was mild to most and the summer was out of the way. After that, the MSM and Labour and NHS and Scientists kept calling for lockdowns and measures. They were even doing the same when Johnson decided not to go along with it anymore and guess what? No probs!
There are people still calling for restrictions now when everyone has been getting on with it for ages. These people have unresolved control issues or need to see a mental health practitioner.
Why do you say we knew COVID was mild after the first lockdown?
COVID killed 75,000 people in the winter of 2020/21. Even WITH a (late) lockdown. How many do you think would have died without action being taken? How do you think the NHS would have coped without action?
For more information see 'scaremongering@bst.com'
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Which bits don't you agree with AL?
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(https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/attachments/1662555576674-png.691622/)
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Which bits don't you agree with AL?
The difference of kicking the bucket with covid as against of covid which swindled the figures.
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So how do you explain the evidence based points I've made about the excess deaths pretty much exactly rising and falling wiith the COVID waves?
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Big things going on at the Eastern Front. Sounds like the Russian defence at Izyum is evaporating rapidly.
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Big things going on at the Eastern Front. Sounds like the Russian defence at Izyum is evaporating rapidly.
Can I ask where you are seeing this please? Genuinely interested to read about it.
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Big things going on at the Eastern Front. Sounds like the Russian defence at Izyum is evaporating rapidly.
Can I ask where you are seeing this please? Genuinely interested to read about it.
This about Izyum. https://mobile.twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1568301441189662720
Need to be careful as this is not an independent source. But this is coming after independently verified news that the Ukrainians have driven a massive wedge through the Russian front line in the past 3 days.
https://mobile.twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1568218806170054656
Word is that the Kherson attack was a feint. Russian bought it and rushed troops from the Kharkhiv front to shore up Kherson. Then Ukraine launched the planned attack between Kharkhiv and Izyum.
There are reports of Russian soldiers being captured having run away and changed into civilian clothes. And videos of Russian tanks retreating at top speed with troops hanging to the turrets.
Could be a very big development.
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Big things going on at the Eastern Front. Sounds like the Russian defence at Izyum is evaporating rapidly.
Can I ask where you are seeing this please? Genuinely interested to read about it.
This about Izyum. https://mobile.twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1568301441189662720
Need to be careful as this is not an independent source. But this is coming after independently verified news that the Ukrainians have driven a massive wedge through the Russian front line in the past 3 days.
https://mobile.twitter.com/IAPonomarenko/status/1568218806170054656
Word is that the Kherson attack was a feint. Russian bought it and rushed troops from the Kharkhiv front to shore up Kherson. Then Ukraine launched the planned attack between Kharkhiv and Izyum.
There are reports of Russian soldiers being captured having run away and changed into civilian clothes. And videos of Russian tanks retreating at top speed with troops hanging to the turrets.
Could be a very big development.
Thankyou
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There is no favourable endgame in any of this for anyone.
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I'd be v surprised if Ukraine get much further, Russia have a large tank brigade about where Ukraine are up to. Plus stretched supply route. But so far impressive.
Given that Russia knew about this for nearly 2 weeks, I can't work out how they didn't have better plans. Could be there's a twist to come?
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Like Mike Tyson said. Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. If (IF) reports are to be believed, the Russian front line simply evaporated when the Ukrainians attacked. You can have all the plans in the world but if your troops' moralesnd will to resist is f**ked, they aren't worth the paper they are written on.
The big Ukranian victory at the moment appears to be taking Kupyansk. That is the central transport hub for north east Donbas. If the Russians have lost that, they have nowhere to retrench to that can be supplied that side of the Russian border.
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Wow. Just...wow.
https://mobile.twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1568373271086653445
The military experts on Russian State TV are in full on panic mode.
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The bit about millions of dissenters!!!
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There is no favourable endgame in any of this for anyone.
There's a massively positive endgame. It's the one that appears to be starting. It's the Russian invasion getting smashed, and Putin learning in words of one syllable that his plan for a Greater Russia is absolutely f**ked.
If Ukraine does force him out, they'll have done more fore peace in Europe this century than anyone thought possible.
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A push on Crimea and the Black Sea ports will finish Russia, the only option then is for Russia to give up or use the Nukes
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Putin won't dare use nukes.
We'll see what he is over the next few weeks. He's built up this image of a ruthless, brilliant strategist. Inside I think he's a terrified minor thug who no-one ever stood up to before.
If this Ukraine attack is the start of the end of the war, it's also the start of the end of him.
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Putin won't dare use nukes.
We'll see what he is over the next few weeks. He's built up this image of a ruthless, brilliant strategist. Inside I think he's a terrified minor thug who no-one ever stood up to before.
If this Ukraine attack is the start of the end of the war, it's also the start of the end of him.
And NATO ends up at the border with Russia
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Apparently Ukraine forces now control Izyum, Lyman and Kupyansk. That's stunning. A bigger move in one day than anything achieved in a month earlier in the war. Question now is, can they continue the momentum?
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Putin won't dare use nukes.
We'll see what he is over the next few weeks. He's built up this image of a ruthless, brilliant strategist. Inside I think he's a terrified minor thug who no-one ever stood up to before.
If this Ukraine attack is the start of the end of the war, it's also the start of the end of him.
And NATO ends up at the border with Russia
Then his successor needs to think long and hard what's in Russia's interests.
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What's happening is really quite stunning, going from an invasion with an expected victory counted in days to being stopped, bogged down, and now being pushed back.
The russian command appears to have fallen into the trap of getting its intelligence from the news. I think something similar happened in the mid-east where the false invasion plans were 'advertised'
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Funnily enough I was listening to a podcast last week about the Russo-Japanese war of 1904/05.
Russia throwing its weight around and trying to bully neighbours in the Far East. It's navy got absolutely obliterated by Japan at Tsushima. Led immediately to the first Russian Revolution of 1905.
I wonder in this battle is going to become the new Tsushima?
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''A group of district council members in St. Petersburg, President Vladimir Putin’s hometown, called for the Russian leader to be charged with treason and removed from office in a rare but brazen protest against the war in Ukraine''
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/09/09/lawmakers-putin-impeachment-censure-war/
good luck with that one then, but shows as did the vid you posted that dissent is there and hopefully growing, brave stuff
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''A group of district council members in St. Petersburg, President Vladimir Putin’s hometown, called for the Russian leader to be charged with treason and removed from office in a rare but brazen protest against the war in Ukraine''
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/09/09/lawmakers-putin-impeachment-censure-war/
good luck with that one then, but shows as did the vid you posted that dissent is there and hopefully growing, brave stuff
If I was them, I wouldn't be passing any open windows or taking up offers of a nice cup of tea
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The Skripals were not the first 'dissidents' to be poisoned in the UK and of course there maybe more we don't know of. The price of free speech.
''Bulgarian dissident Georgi Markov ‘shot’ by killer poison pellet from an umbrella''
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/bulgarian-dissident-georgi-markov-shot-by-killer-poison-pellet-from-an-umbrella/news-story/1263538e609b4927ebd103bc8f3ac3c2
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The speed and effectiveness of this assault is truly mind blowing. In 2-3 days, the Ukraine army has driven a wedge 60-80km deep behind the Russian front line to Kupyansk, then apparently wheeled round southwards and encircled Izyum. In a couple of days, they've encircled an area about the size of South, Easy and West Yorkshire.
It's movement on the scale of the German blitzkrieg in 1940.
EDIT. Wrong from me there. They've encircled an area about the size of SY. They appear to now be pushing flleeiyRusdian troops back out of an area about the size of SY and EY.
Still a massive, massive victory.
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Not sure there's any coming back from this for Russia. The poor bas**rds they've poured into the front line will be psychologically destroyed by this.
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And NATO HASN’t even shown its teeth yet, if Russia can’t beat Ukraine they have no chance of taking NATO on
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And NATO HASN’t even shown its teeth yet, if Russia can’t beat Ukraine they have no chance of taking NATO on
And THAT is the big outcome.
Biden and Johnson deserve huge credit for the position they took on this. Along with the leaders of Poland and the Baltics. They've made the point clearly to Russia that this is a big f**king red line. Russia will never again try this sort of stunt in our lifetimes. Ever, if they can wean themselves off their Great Russia myth and become a normal, modern country.
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All sounds very promising from a western point of view into seeing some sort of end to this conflict. Like others have said whenever he's been cornered before Putin has come out fighting rather than used diplomatic means to reach a negotiated solution, could this be a very dangerous time right now with this beast cornered?
If all else fails for him he could always get the guy of the video, the one in the retro Adam Ant jacket, he sounds like a proper Russian nutjob. Send him over, the "special operation" would be completed in days!!
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Putin has never ever been put on the back foot. He's played the bully who chose his opponents well and hit them hard. He's f**ked up beyond the scope of nightmares here. And short of Armageddon, he's no cards left to play.
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Hands up from me by the way. I said at the start that I couldn't see any endgame that didn't leave Russia in control of the Donbas. Looking like I massively over estimated Russia's ability and under estimated Ukraine's will.
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Normal media outlets are not keeping up with how rapidly this is developing.
Here's maps from the Russian side indicating the scale of the Ukrainian offensive.
https://mobile.twitter.com/olliecarroll/status/1568542670200397825
For a sense of the size of that, top to bottom of that map is about the distance from Donny to Newcastle.
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The Skripals were not the first 'dissidents' to be poisoned in the UK and of course there maybe more we don't know of. The price of free speech.
''Bulgarian dissident Georgi Markov ‘shot’ by killer poison pellet from an umbrella''
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/bulgarian-dissident-georgi-markov-shot-by-killer-poison-pellet-from-an-umbrella/news-story/1263538e609b4927ebd103bc8f3ac3c2
'Wet work' sub contracted to the Bulgarians. On Waterloo Bridge if memory serves.
BobG
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The UK press are all still in full on Queen news...
While it looks very much like Russian forces are getting routed. All the information on the war in the papers is hidden away and by the look of it quite a bit out of date.
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To be fair, the mainstream media are all out of date as soon as they go to press on this issue. Things are changing a lightning speed.
But yes, it's fascinating that, while a battle is going on that is going to shape the rest of this century, our main news provider is focussed on sepia-tinged memories of a bygone Britain.
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I won't link to it because it's The Express that have a report that Putin is furious after one of his generals online, drunk, told him to f... Off.
Obviously this can't be verified but I do hope it's true.
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That has made me smile RD! Even if it's not true it's still funny
BobG
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Ahh. My mistake. It was all a plan by the Russians to "relocate"
https://mobile.twitter.com/michaelh992/status/1568605179594903553
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Sounds like Ukraine has taken back Donetsk airport which they lost control of in 2015.
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I think we're seeing the effect of hundreds of Ukranian Troops returning from training on various weapon systems in a number of NATO countries and now putting those systems and equipment to full use.
I wouldn't believe however we've seen the end of Russian atrocities for one minute. They appear to be in disarray, out of control and capable of anything from surrendering, laying down arms, discarding uniforms and running away to pillaging anything they can lay their hands on whilst they retreat. Further random missile strikes may follow once their troops are out of the way.
The higher ranks seem to be the first to scarper leaving the front line troops to fend for themselves. More cannon fodder.
We can only hope the news filtering back to Russia will lead to anger and uprising.
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Ahh. My mistake. It was all a plan by the Russians to "relocate"
https://mobile.twitter.com/michaelh992/status/1568605179594903553
Let's hope the next media release is 'our job is done and we're going home'
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Hands up from me by the way. I said at the start that I couldn't see any endgame that didn't leave Russia in control of the Donbas. Looking like I massively over estimated Russia's ability and under estimated Ukraine's will.
I had similar thoughts. This is now amazing news, hopefully the news keeps us up to date!
https://twitter.com/dangerkidsbooks/status/1568622184435949568?s=46&t=mdk_xOjYhZez4aEOD-gMtg
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Reports are that Russia has responded to the crushing defeat on the battlefield by firing a salvo of $13m KH-101 missiles at the main power station serving Kharkhiv.
Animals. Absolute animals.
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As one liberated Ukranian said
"What they did not destroy, they stole, she says, including forks and spoons, and the shoes from a pensioner's feet"
Entirely expected, once the troops retreat leaving their ammunition and armour behind, sometimes being left to walk by their generals, nicking civilian cars to make their escape, the missiles follow
Quite ironic they can hit a power station with precision, having hit hundreds of civilian buildings by accident.
Can only hope Putin and his generals are brought to account by the Russian people for atrocities against their own, nevermind the nation of Ukraine.
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[quote author=DonnyBazR0ver link=topic=283806.msg1185911#msg1185911
Quite ironic they can hit a power station with precision, having hit hundreds of civilian buildings by accident.
[/quote]
THIS!
BobG
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The Ukraines are at the border with Russia, Belgorod is 25 miles away well within range of missile strikes, perhaps the Russians should receive some missile back
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Updates from the Russia apologists seem to have disappeared the last few days, are they on the run as well
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Some of the experts in Moscow are getting the message.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1569070513909022720
The bit from 3:30 is classic.
The Kitson of a presenter talking about whether they should "Do something to Ukraine to sober these people up." Not difficult to interpret what THAT means.
Then the response that in measured terms tells him that Russia has lost.
The final two sentences at the very end of the video would be nerve tingling in a thriller movie, nevermind being played out for real.
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Openly stating on Russian tv the Ukraine cannot be defeated .................
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https://mobile.twitter.com/Acyn/status/1564408136378843136
This aged well.
At some point you have to ask if Fox News is actually a Kremlin organisation.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/Acyn/status/1564408136378843136
This aged well.
At some point you have to ask if Fox News is actually a Kremlin organisation.
Fox is in Trump’s pocket, and Trump gives every impression of being beholden to Putin, remember Trump hailing Putin’s declaring independent breakaway states in Donbas as ‘genius’
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I wonder how Russian state TV would chew on this one.
It appears, with all the abandoned military hardware and ammunition following this counteroffensive, the biggest arms supplier to Ukraine is.....Russia!!
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I wonder how Russian state TV would chew on this one.
It appears, with all the abandoned military hardware and ammunition following this counteroffensive, the biggest arms supplier to Ukraine is.....Russia!!
That's good news then. Maybe now the UK Government can spend a bit more on destitute UK citizens and less on weapons for another country.
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I wonder how Russian state TV would chew on this one.
It appears, with all the abandoned military hardware and ammunition following this counteroffensive, the biggest arms supplier to Ukraine is.....Russia!!
That's good news then. Maybe now the UK Government can spend a bit more on destitute UK citizens and less on weapons for another country.
Once again, you need to look at the big picture. If we stopped supporting Ukraine and allowed Putin to walk all over them, do you think we'd be in a better long term position?
What you're saying is akin to someone saying they'll save money on house insurance to spend more on food, when their next door but two neighbour is trying to burn down next door but one's house.
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It's not akin to anything.
More money spent on UK please and less on Ukraine. Either go in and help end the war, now - not in 12 months / years but now. Or don't and focus on Britain a lot more.
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'Go in and help end the war'. Really? If that means send in troops, I suspect you will be in a minority of one with that view Panda. What consequences would you anticipate if Britain did follow your advice?
BobG
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Why does it have to be either/or?
What specifically is wrong with an approach that is clearly beating Putin without going all in?
And as I keep saying, if you stop supporting Ukraine now because the economic cost is too high (it isn't - it's peanuts in the big scheme of things) where do you think Putin stops? If he realises that he can squeeze our balls over gas and we'll back off, you reckon he won't do it again and again?
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"More money spent on UK"........ I see our new WUM is trying to be edgy (and relevant) like in other threads.
Meanwhile.............. there are some very disturbing atrocities happening in the liberated towns and villages...
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/bodies-left-to-rot-as-people-describe-burying-neighbours-life-in-a-liberated-village-after-russians-retreat/ar-AA11ILtg?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=d746d80b8885498f9bcd336888e406e8 (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/bodies-left-to-rot-as-people-describe-burying-neighbours-life-in-a-liberated-village-after-russians-retreat/ar-AA11ILtg?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=d746d80b8885498f9bcd336888e406e8)
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I've struggled to find much news of the war in Ukraine over the last few days. Reading the last couple of pages of this thread gives great cause for optimism that we may soon see an end to the conflict.
Putin's message of condolence to the UK in the wake of the Queen's death has been well publicised; I doubt that this is coincidental if he needs to grasp at any faint chance of building bridges after his failed invasion.
It's also very encouraging for Europe and the UK that Russia's invasion left most of Ukraine relatively unscathed as I would hope and expect that this will mean wheat and sunflower harvests are much better than we may have feared.
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"More money spent on UK"........ I see our new WUM is trying to be edgy (and relevant) like in other threads.
Meanwhile.............. there are some very disturbing atrocities happening in the liberated towns and villages...
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/bodies-left-to-rot-as-people-describe-burying-neighbours-life-in-a-liberated-village-after-russians-retreat/ar-AA11ILtg?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=d746d80b8885498f9bcd336888e406e8 (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/bodies-left-to-rot-as-people-describe-burying-neighbours-life-in-a-liberated-village-after-russians-retreat/ar-AA11ILtg?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=d746d80b8885498f9bcd336888e406e8)
Yeah. I live in the UK mate. Not Ukraine. If we want to help Ukraine then fine. Do it properly otherwise row back and focus on us in Britain. That WUM enough? Whatever the f**k WUM means?
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You’re out of your depth AGAIN Handshake.
Go for a long walk.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/Acyn/status/1564408136378843136
This aged well.
At some point you have to ask if Fox News is actually a Kremlin organisation.
This from today.
https://mobile.twitter.com/MattGertz/status/1569321565531115523
WT-absolute-F?
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Reports are that Russia has responded to the crushing defeat on the battlefield by firing a salvo of $13m KH-101 missiles at the main power station serving Kharkhiv.
Animals. Absolute animals.
You do get yer knockers in a twist old fella. Ukraine has been attacking the Nuke Station for weeks. Not heard you wailing about that?
The reason Russia wiped out the [power in the east was to stop the Ukraines shifting their armour and troops by rail. Reports of lots of sitting duck targets as the trains suddenly stopped.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/Acyn/status/1564408136378843136
This aged well.
At some point you have to ask if Fox News is actually a Kremlin organisation.
This from today.
https://mobile.twitter.com/MattGertz/status/1569321565531115523
WT-absolute-F?
The point about Russias targets being the military capability of Ukraine rather than the territory is true. Why wouldn't it be? Not sure what you're flapping about here?
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"More money spent on UK"........ I see our new WUM is trying to be edgy (and relevant) like in other threads.
Meanwhile.............. there are some very disturbing atrocities happening in the liberated towns and villages...
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/bodies-left-to-rot-as-people-describe-burying-neighbours-life-in-a-liberated-village-after-russians-retreat/ar-AA11ILtg?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=d746d80b8885498f9bcd336888e406e8 (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/bodies-left-to-rot-as-people-describe-burying-neighbours-life-in-a-liberated-village-after-russians-retreat/ar-AA11ILtg?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=d746d80b8885498f9bcd336888e406e8)
Yeah. I live in the UK mate. Not Ukraine. If we want to help Ukraine then fine. Do it properly otherwise row back and focus on us in Britain. That WUM enough? Whatever the f**k WUM means?
If you hadn't noticed recently, food prices have gone up. That's because Ukraine is a major food (and fertilister) exporter. So helping Ukraine is helping the UK.
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The strike on Ukrainian infrastructure today from Putin will further alienate Ukrainians from Russia of whom quite a lot had links to Russia.
Putin continuing to sentence Russian families young sons to death by war will alienate ordinary Russians from Putin.
The cultural response in Moscow will be very interesting. Putin all about the display of strength / being the “hero”.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/Acyn/status/1564408136378843136
This aged well.
At some point you have to ask if Fox News is actually a Kremlin organisation.
There was quite a resistance from Americans in getting involved in fighting the nazis.
https://twitter.com/stevesilberman/status/1194361105297993728?lang=en-GB
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I think this is a turning point. It's the first time the Ukrainians have really taken the initiative since the crisis began. It's been hugely succesful. They are now dictating the course of events, not Russia.
The news in Kherson looks good too. The Russians are cut off, hunkering down on their island whilst the Ukranians can pummel them at will. The demolarised Russians are stuck there full time with very limited supplies, whilst the Ukrainians rotate troops, keep everyone fresh and are highly motivated. It looks like it's just a matter of time.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/Acyn/status/1564408136378843136
This aged well.
At some point you have to ask if Fox News is actually a Kremlin organisation.
This from today.
https://mobile.twitter.com/MattGertz/status/1569321565531115523
WT-absolute-F?
The point about Russias targets being the military capability of Ukraine rather than the territory is true. Why wouldn't it be? Not sure what you're flapping about here?
Go and listen to the bit where Fox News tells their watchers that things are currently going very badly for Ukraine and the war may be over by next week.
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Unconfirmed reports coming in within the last hour that no new Russian units are entering Ukraine .
Apparently the soldiers have refused to go and fight .
Also 18 municipal Russian mayors have called for the resignation of Putin .
Think the end may be near on a couple of levels .
Fingers crossed .
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Unconfirmed reports coming in within the last hour that no new Russian units are entering Ukraine .
Apparently the soldiers have refused to go and fight .
Also 18 municipal Russian mayors have called for the resignation of Putin .
Think the end may be near on a couple of levels .
Fingers crossed .
Only recently a whole new army corps entered the battle from Russia. At least 16k troops, possibly double. Not heard any stories of them deserting.
Not sure what region your info is referring to?
From wiki "As of January 1, 2020, there are 20,846 municipal divisions in Russia, including 1,673 municipal districts"
So that 18 mayors is what in percent?
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Is that 16k troop story from the same source as the one claiming the Russians chose to fall back in good order on the Kharkhiv front?
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Unconfirmed reports coming in within the last hour that no new Russian units are entering Ukraine .
Apparently the soldiers have refused to go and fight .
Also 18 municipal Russian mayors have called for the resignation of Putin .
Think the end may be near on a couple of levels .
Fingers crossed .
Only recently a whole new army corps entered the battle from Russia. At least 16k troops, possibly double. Not heard any stories of them deserting.
Not sure what region your info is referring to?
From wiki "As of January 1, 2020, there are 20,846 municipal divisions in Russia, including 1,673 municipal districts"
So that 18 mayors is what in percent?
I don't know what area of Ukraine it doesn't say .
The 18 municipal Russian mayors are in Moscow and St Petersburg it doesn't say what percentage that comes in at .
The report refers specifically to the events of the last few days when the Russians fled for their lives and the Ukrainians have made huge gains .
The soldiers unwilling to fight seems to be a consequence of that .
Unconfirmed .
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Unconfirmed reports coming in within the last hour that no new Russian units are entering Ukraine .
Apparently the soldiers have refused to go and fight .
Also 18 municipal Russian mayors have called for the resignation of Putin .
Think the end may be near on a couple of levels .
Fingers crossed .
I've seen the same reports about the lack of deployment of Battalion Tactical Groups being deployed.
It could mean that Putin is giving up.
It could mean that there's a mutiny going on.
It could mean something that I really do not want to think about.
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Unconfirmed reports coming in within the last hour that no new Russian units are entering Ukraine .
Apparently the soldiers have refused to go and fight .
Also 18 municipal Russian mayors have called for the resignation of Putin .
Think the end may be near on a couple of levels .
Fingers crossed .
Only recently a whole new army corps entered the battle from Russia. At least 16k troops, possibly double. Not heard any stories of them deserting.
Not sure what region your info is referring to?
From wiki "As of January 1, 2020, there are 20,846 municipal divisions in Russia, including 1,673 municipal districts"
So that 18 mayors is what in percent?
I don't know what area of Ukraine it doesn't say .
The 18 municipal Russian mayors are in Moscow and St Petersburg it doesn't say what percentage that comes in at .
The report refers specifically to the events of the last few days when the Russians fled for their lives and the Ukrainians have made huge gains .
The soldiers unwilling to fight seems to be a consequence of that .
Unconfirmed .
We have to remember that the Ukrainian side can put out propaganda as well (ghost of Kharkiv, farmers shooting down planes etc).
Hopefully this is true.
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Lots of different reports of Russian soldiers surrendering at Kherson. No confirmation so treat with caution.
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If the story of the leaders of 18 municipal areas of Russia petitioning for Putin to resign is true, then those leaders are brave.
Very brave.
Good help them
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I think Ukraine handled this offence well, so far. Russia Al ost certainly had largely vacated the area just before Ukraine attacked. They hadn't the numbers there to defend it. The surrenders orobs from the surrounded troops left to slow down the advance whilst the bilk got away. Now there's a new defence line.
BST - The 3rd Army Corps is well documented amongst a very wide variety of sources, go google. Probs not amongst your twitter Yankee fan boy mates tho :lol:
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Oh aye, there's a new defence line. About 100km behind the one they had last Thursday.
Does it ever dawn on you to change your info sources?
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BST, re your post about the Russian-Japanese battle of Tsushima, 1905 of which I knew nothing.
Togo, the Japanese hoisted the Z flag to commence battle. This as you say was a disaster for the Russians whom were absolutely smashed (with British help) I wonder if the Russians thought it could inspire them to victory in this offensive?
''The 1905 battle saw Japan's modern navy smash the aging Russian fleet ... Togo ordered the famous “Z-flag” hoisted as the battle commenced''
https://militaryhistorynow.com/2018/05/24/tsushima-the-battle-that-sank-imperial-russias-navy/
Further reading
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tsushima
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Oh aye, there's a new defence line. About 100km behind the one they had last Thursday.
Does it ever dawn on you to change your info sources?
Why wiould that not be the case? Using a strong natural barrier? Maybe your sources have a different analysis, one that includes how Ukraine is going to move its troops around the country? Maybe the line of importing electricity from Poland and Genramany? Or diesel from Bulgaria?
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Righto. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I hadn't considered that this was a strategic withdrawal to a better defence line.
But ...err...you'd think they'd have taken their tanks with them.
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Interesting read. https://breakingdefense.com/2022/09/russias-military-facing-steep-artillery-import-challenges-six-months-into-invasion/
Could be that Russian munitions are nearly exhausted.
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(https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/attachments/1663052037304-png.693160/)
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I think that's pretty close to the truth MM
Word was right at the start that Russian Intel officers were under intense pressure to file reports saying the invasion would be a cakewalk. They are terrified to tell the Thug in Chief that this are a disaster.
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I think Ukraine handled this offence well, so far. Russia Al ost certainly had largely vacated the area just before Ukraine attacked. They hadn't the numbers there to defend it. The surrenders orobs from the surrounded troops left to slow down the advance whilst the bilk got away. Now there's a new defence line.
BST - The 3rd Army Corps is well documented amongst a very wide variety of sources, go google. Probs not amongst your twitter Yankee fan boy mates tho :lol:
Which if it says anything should tell you that Russian intelligence is rubbish. Why didn't they spot the build up of Ukrainian forces in the north-east but instead fell for a dummy attack in the south (which I did tell you to be cautious about reporting a success/failure)?
And if they can't be relied on for that...
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There's someone on here who may find this interesting
prior to the current offensive the Ukrainians, with the help of the US & UK 'war gamed' a single major attack. And concluded it would fail. Hence the feint to the south and this second main offensive:
https://twitter.com/mrianleslie/status/1569658634652782593
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What makes you think that Russia hadn't pretty much pre planned the withdrawal? I guess if they had drones, or even sattelites, they might have spotted it. Keep up.
Given that there is still an offensive in the south, plus another one imminently planned in the SE, I think your twitter story is confused.
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Unconfirmed reports that the Russians are fleeing Melitopol and running into Crimea, they’ll soon have to run into the sea at this rate
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This could all come down to whether or not the Russians as a people have faith in their leader. If they do, if it is a real faith, then their morale ought to survive one defeat and their industrial and manpower capacity should ensure stalemate at worst. If their faith is limited to lip service, then we are more than likely going to witness very major changes.
But will those changes happen this time? I'm not sure. One battle defeat doesn't normally drive a nation to despair no matter how much the propaganda has misrepresented things. A second such defeat though....
BobG
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(https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/attachments/victorious-jpg.693490/)
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What makes you think that Russia hadn't pretty much pre planned the withdrawal? I guess if they had drones, or even sattelites, they might have spotted it. Keep up.
Given that there is still an offensive in the south, plus another one imminently planned in the SE, I think your twitter story is confused.
If you MUST act as a Russian propaganda bot, at least keep up with the message. Even the Kremlin has admitted that they got their arses caned on the Kharkhiv front. They haven't been running with the "pre-planned orderly retreat" line for days.
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What makes you think that Russia hadn't pretty much pre planned the withdrawal? I guess if they had drones, or even sattelites, they might have spotted it. Keep up.
Given that there is still an offensive in the south, plus another one imminently planned in the SE, I think your twitter story is confused.
Then you clearly haven't read it - its a story/article in the New York Post.
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Apparently there are large numbers of Ukranian Troops poised to go into the Kherson front. Rumours Russian units have tried to negotiate a surrender having run out of basic supplies.
Ukranians are biding their time until they can walk in virtually unopposed with the Russians fleeing via Crimea.
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Unconfirmed reports of a assassination attempt on Putin
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Unconfirmed reports of a assassination attempt on Putin
Lots of reports of this on Twitter….hopefully it’s only a matter of time.
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We can do without failed attempts.
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Unconfirmed reports of a assassination attempt on Putin
Carried out by members of his personal bodyguard according to this:
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/vladimir-putins-limo-attacked-assassination-27993499
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Failed attempt.
Amateurs.
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What makes you think that Russia hadn't pretty much pre planned the withdrawal? I guess if they had drones, or even sattelites, they might have spotted it. Keep up.
Given that there is still an offensive in the south, plus another one imminently planned in the SE, I think your twitter story is confused.
Then you clearly haven't read it - its a story/article in the New York Post.
I read the part on Twitter.
Either way, are you and BST suggestng Russia had no idea of the build up? For sure it was a defeat, although Russia's aim in this war is not simple territory gain, it's destroyng the Ukraine military, which appears to be working well as far as it goes.
All the tank aid for Ukraine is I believe in situ. Not sure they have yet more manpower to call up, the call on women is a sign of how things are going there. As there is a tipping point for Russia, there is a tipping point for Ukraine. They won't be fighting to the last.
This is a long war of attrition. With power stations out of action, the economy purely dependent on the US and EU and chance speculators, and Ukraines' desperate to retake the Nuke plant by the lake (no doubt BST still denies that recent attack happened, tho notable that Ukraine hasn't) This winter will be critical.
BST - "Russian Bot" - kinda the discussion forum version of a really weak dad joke.
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Apparently there are large numbers of Ukranian Troops poised to go into the Kherson front. Rumours Russian units have tried to negotiate a surrender having run out of basic supplies.
Ukranians are biding their time until they can walk in virtually unopposed with the Russians fleeing via Crimea.
Biding their time... losing hundreds of lives a day? A good number of Ukraines currently biding their time in a pocket in Kherson whilst getting shelled from all sides and bombed out of existance as they were cut off by the river flooding and knocking out all their pontoon bridges.
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Not desperate at all.
''Wagner Group: Head of Russian mercenary group filmed recruiting in prison
By Matt Murphy''
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62911618
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Not desperate at all.
''Wagner Group: Head of Russian mercenary group filmed recruiting in prison
By Matt Murphy''
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62911618
Absolutely, Sydney. Totally untrained, and doubtless a good proportion of them locked up for nothing more than opposing Putin's regime. They're going to be one hell of a motivated fighting force.
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Apparently there are large numbers of Ukranian Troops poised to go into the Kherson front. Rumours Russian units have tried to negotiate a surrender having run out of basic supplies.
Ukranians are biding their time until they can walk in virtually unopposed with the Russians fleeing via Crimea.
Biding their time... losing hundreds of lives a day? A good number of Ukraines currently biding their time in a pocket in Kherson whilst getting shelled from all sides and bombed out of existance as they were cut off by the river flooding and knocking out all their pontoon bridges.
Not sure which thought is more depressing here.
The thought that you actually believe this claptrap. Or the thought that you don't, but still post it.
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Vague. Be specific, I know you can be.
Though if you're doubtiing what I just said, I think you're lost in BBC LaLa Land. You need to upgrade your sources.
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india’s State Bank Opening Rupee Accounts for Trade With Russia
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-15/india-s-state-bank-opening-rupee-accounts-for-trade-with-russia
State Bank of India, the country’s largest lender, is opening special rupee accounts to handle Russia-related trade settlements in the local currency but is not the main bank for such business.
SBI is “making necessary arrangements and processing requests received from various banks, including Russian banks,” following guidelines laid out by the Reserve Bank of India, it said in a statement. The banking regulator had allowed Indian banks in July to open special rupee vostro accounts with lenders of other countries to settle overseas trades in the Indian currency.
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/industry/banking/finance/banking/indian-banks-may-join-hands-with-russia-lenders-not-hit-by-sanctions/articleshow/92324935.cms
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Not desperate at all.
''Wagner Group: Head of Russian mercenary group filmed recruiting in prison
By Matt Murphy''
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62911618
Absolutely, Sydney. Totally untrained, and doubtless a good proportion of them locked up for nothing more than opposing Putin's regime. They're going to be one hell of a motivated fighting force.
"...doubtless..." yeah, right. Have you got any chips to go with that ketchup?
I think there's around 400 to 500k total in custody. Given that Russia has maybe between 150 to 250k in Ukraine compared to maybe between 800k and 1100k on the Ukraine side, say 10% of the total prison population signing up would make some difference. Most will already have military training, some more than the basic national service. Some will be military veterans.
However, looking at the prisoners in more detail it is unlikely that many who have sentences to run of less than 5 years wll take this offer up.
There are about 225k with sentences between 5 and 10 years .
68k who have 10 to 15 years left.
32k who have over 15 years left.
From these it may be say 25k that sign up? It is very dangerous for them. The troops will be stormtroopers, not just ordinary infantry. Far from conscripts, far from bakers and bank workers with a gun. It could be 6 months or a year before these feed through to the front line.
The next stage for Russia will be conscripting, mainly from the Asian territories. Without full training these would be fairly useless canon fodder, much like the Ukraines and foreign volunteers that got thrown to the front. It's a long road ahead.
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Unconfirmed reports of a assassination attempt on Putin
Lots of reports of this on Twitter….hopefully it’s only a matter of time.
Nothing on the news tonight about this.
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Not desperate at all.
''Wagner Group: Head of Russian mercenary group filmed recruiting in prison
By Matt Murphy''
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-62911618
Absolutely, Sydney. Totally untrained, and doubtless a good proportion of them locked up for nothing more than opposing Putin's regime. They're going to be one hell of a motivated fighting force.
"...doubtless..." yeah, right. Have you got any chips to go with that ketchup?
I think there's around 500k total in custody. Given that Russia has maybe between 150 to 250k in Ukraine compared to maybe between 800k and 1100k on the Ukraine side, say 10% of the total prison population signing up would make some difference. Most will already have military training, some more than the basic national service. Some will be military veterans.
The next stage for Russia will be conscripting, mainly from the Asian territories. Without full training these would be fairly useless canon fodder, much like the Ukraines and foreign volunteers that got thrown to the front. It's a long road ahead.
You’ve omitted one very important factor there in your ‘spurious’ account of numbers of fighters on both sides.
Ukraine is fighting an invader that it is determined will give up territories it has/had seized because it’s people are motivated.
Motivated to live in a free & democratic country.
Motivated to ‘chase’ this bullying regime from its lands.
Motivated by the backing of those in the ‘free world’ who see Ukraine’s fight as just & Russia’s flagrant invasion as a precursor to further expansionist ‘incursion’ on other Baltic States should it succeed in Ukraine.
Have you absolutely no ‘grasp’ on history?
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He has little grasp on anything other than a wish to see NATO and the EU battered down.
Russia has wasted so much hardware, it's asking North Korea to send 60 year old munitions to bail them out. It's list swathes of its trained junior officers. They won't replace them with convict thugs. And Ukraine will continue to be supplied with precision munitions to pick them off.
Modern warfare isn't about brute force. It's about intelligent use of force. Which Russia doesn't get. And since BRR immerses himself in Russian propaganda, he doesn't get it.
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You’ve omitted one very important factor there in your ‘spurious’ account of numbers of fighters on both sides.
Ukraine is fighting an invader that it is determined will give up territories it has/had seized because it’s people are motivated.
Motivated to live in a free & democratic country.
Motivated to ‘chase’ this bullying regime from its lands.
Motivated by the backing of those in the ‘free world’ who see Ukraine’s fight as just & Russia’s flagrant invasion as a precursor to further expansionist ‘incursion’ on other Baltic States should it succeed in Ukraine.
Have you absolutely no ‘grasp’ on history?
"Spurious" - I can only assume you have accurate figures?
"free and democratic" - since when did you check out Ukraines level of democracy? Would that include a US led coup? Would that include a variety of oligarchs milking the country for personal gain? Would it include the US pretty much buying it out just like some folks buy 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc homes on the cheap from those who have fallen on hard times?
For sure Russia is bullying. And I'll wager you don't see the US and EU as a bully?
I don't see much potential for Russia to take over more states, though I understand that fear, and the narrative. The "free world".... :facepalm:
I understand where this has all come from, what Ukraine's history has been, what the lead up to the invasion was. You've given no indication you do, but maybe you can explain?
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From the link:
"If you serve six months (in Wagner), you are free," he said. But he warned potential recruits against desertion and said "if you arrive in Ukraine and decide it's not for you, we will execute you"
''He also informed prisoners of Wagner's rules banning alcohol, drugs and "sexual contacts with local women, flora, fauna, men - anything"''
"this is a hard war, not even close to the likes of Chechnya and the others"
''He said the prisoners had stormed the Ukrainian trenches and attacked Kyiv's troops with knives. Three of the men - including a 52-year-old who spent more than 30 years in detention - were killed, Mr Prigozhin said''
''Later in the video, he warned the convicts, who are all sporting black jump suits, that they will be expected to kill themselves with hand grenades if they are at risk of being captured''
hmmm where do I sign?
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He has little grasp on anything other than a wish to see NATO and the EU battered down.
Russia has wasted so much hardware, it's asking North Korea to send 60 year old munitions to bail them out. It's list swathes of its trained junior officers. They won't replace them with convict thugs. And Ukraine will continue to be supplied with precision munitions to pick them off.
He does appear to be increasingly grasping at straws and looking around for allies to back his failing 'special mission'....... you have to wonder how his mental state is right now.... I suspect the main constituents are desperation and paranoia. With any luck he will shortly be considering at what stage he locks himself in the bunker.
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I agree MM.
When he loses and Europe weans itself off his gas, Russia basically becomes a big North Korea.
f**ked economy.
Mad dictator.
Playing the "crazy-dangerous" card with their nukes to prove they still matter.
Relying on China to support them.
China really doesn't want another unstable basket case on its border. Putin will have promised Xi that he could walk into Ukraine and take it over, putting the shites up NATO and the EU. There's no other valid explanation why Xi would have supported him at first. I bet Xi is f**king incandescent at how it has planned out.
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Izyum today - truly horrific...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fcx-vmvWAAAhck_?format=jpg&name=900x900)
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Some tough viewing here.....
https://twitter.com/liz_cookman?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1570786965620137986%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=
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Some reports (and being reported in the Telegraph) that Ukraine has crossed the Oskil River and has breached that Russian line of defence.
If they continue on like this, they will soon cut the Russian land supply lines to the entire invasion force.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/09/17/ukraine-delivers-another-blow-russia-breaches-frontline-oskil/
A video reportedly shot from a Ukrainian tank and uploaded onto Twitter was geolocated to Kupiansk on the east bank of the Oskil River.
It showed the smashed-up and destroyed city. On the left of the video footage lie the wrecks of two smouldering and seemingly abandoned Russian tanks, one painted with the letter Z which has become a Russian pro-war symbol.
Another video of a Ukrainian soldier celebrating the destruction of a Russian armoured personnel carrier has also been geolocated to the east bank of the Oskil River. "All will soon be Ukraine," the soldier says in the video. Russian forces have taken huge losses since the Kremlin ordered the invasion of Ukraine on Feb. 24.
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Reading the BBC report on the burials, it's clear how evil Russia is and Ukraine are saints. No need for a thorough investigation, the causes are obvious. The BBC already have a lawyer in the job too.
They interviewed one tortured guy who is clearly representitive of the whole population of the city. Not even a rumour of Ukraines holding any of the Russian sympathisers prisoner. The situation is clear. It's black and white. Neat for those with blinkers.
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Still not seen anything on the news about the alleged attempt to bump off Putin.
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Reading the BBC report on the burials, it's clear how evil Russia is and Ukraine are saints. No need for a thorough investigation, the causes are obvious. The BBC already have a lawyer in the job too.
They interviewed one tortured guy who is clearly representitive of the whole population of the city. Not even a rumour of Ukraines holding any of the Russian sympathisers prisoner. The situation is clear. It's black and white. Neat for those with blinkers.
Are you not getting the Russian propaganda reports directly? You are behind the times. The line to take now is yes these things happened and if you dont stop and surrender we will do worse. 'We will make you fear us'.
https://twitter.com/OSINTEng/status/1571381583008907264
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Reading the BBC report on the burials, it's clear how evil Russia is and Ukraine are saints. No need for a thorough investigation, the causes are obvious. The BBC already have a lawyer in the job too.
They interviewed one tortured guy who is clearly representitive of the whole population of the city. Not even a rumour of Ukraines holding any of the Russian sympathisers prisoner. The situation is clear. It's black and white. Neat for those with blinkers.
Are you not getting the Russian propaganda reports directly? You are behind the times. The line to take now is yes these things happened and if you dont stop and surrender we will do worse. 'We will make you fear us'.
https://twitter.com/OSINTEng/status/1571381583008907264
Get a grip.
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Reading the BBC report on the burials, it's clear how evil Russia is and Ukraine are saints. No need for a thorough investigation, the causes are obvious. The BBC already have a lawyer in the job too.
They interviewed one tortured guy who is clearly representitive of the whole population of the city. Not even a rumour of Ukraines holding any of the Russian sympathisers prisoner. The situation is clear. It's black and white. Neat for those with blinkers.
Are you not getting the Russian propaganda reports directly? You are behind the times. The line to take now is yes these things happened and if you dont stop and surrender we will do worse. 'We will make you fear us'.
https://twitter.com/OSINTEng/status/1571381583008907264
Get a grip.
Said the above poster about rape and torture victims buried in a mass grave in a wood. 'Neat with those blinkers.'
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Reading the BBC report on the burials, it's clear how evil Russia is and Ukraine are saints. No need for a thorough investigation, the causes are obvious. The BBC already have a lawyer in the job too.
They interviewed one tortured guy who is clearly representitive of the whole population of the city. Not even a rumour of Ukraines holding any of the Russian sympathisers prisoner. The situation is clear. It's black and white. Neat for those with blinkers.
Are you not getting the Russian propaganda reports directly? You are behind the times. The line to take now is yes these things happened and if you dont stop and surrender we will do worse. 'We will make you fear us'.
https://twitter.com/OSINTEng/status/1571381583008907264
Get a grip.
Said the above poster about rape and torture victims buried in a mass grave in a wood. 'Neat with those blinkers.'
Like you, I have no idea of what surrounded their deaths. Unlike you I'm not making the same old one sided assumption based on evidently biased reports. And I'm not claiming - without evidence - that one army of f£&@ed up soldiers is innocent.
Get a grip.
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Putin addressing the nation at 6pm!
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Putin addressing the nation at 6pm!
Big thing!
He's going to announce that they'll hold sham referendums in Donetsk and Lugansk to become formally part of Russia. Then when Ukraine tries to reclaim them with Western weapons, he'd say it is a NATO-sponsored attack on the Russian homeland.
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Still no sign of him. Guy on sky news saying it indicates chaos behind the scenes.
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It looks like Putin is in a tail spin at the moment. The Ukrainians have come out fighting in the last few weeks - they said they would - and the Russian forces seem to be spent - particularly now their artillery is being countered so effectively.
I read somewhere that the former Soviet army was largely composed of Ukranians rather than Russians and perhaps that is where the real fighting spirit rests.
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Rumours that after the joke referendums he'll call a general mobilisation and Marshall Law.
Some military commentators say they haven't got the resources to train and arm a mass mobilisation. Who knows?
You wonder how Russia will react to a general mobilisation. Yes, some young folk have already scarpered but would they rather spill blood in Ukraine in Putins War or spill blood on home soil to get rid of Putin himself?
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There is a suggestion there could be a revolt if Putin declares war but I have a feeling we'd see huge numbers dashing for the borders.
This national address is taking a longtime, it's gone 10pm in Moscow.
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Conscripting untrained men for cannon fodder will be the end of him
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Now tomorrow morning.
Apparently it’s pre recorded. Has someone interfered or he’s had second thoughts. Or he’s playing games.
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Obviously something going on behind the scenes.
It does look like there are plans afoot for some sort of mobilisation. That is entirely consistent with Putin, who always escalates whenever he's backed into a corner.
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Whether the referendums are sham or not is irrelevant. The West wouldn't recognise even the most kosha of referendums in these territories anyway. Plus given the situation, kosha would be impossible.
It's simply a way of instigating mobilisation which is needed because Ukraine forces far outnumber what Russia is able to use there as things stand.
Putin's speech is likely to outline what mobilisation means. One certain aspect is that Russia will be able to use all its regular army including current conscripts. Added to this it will be able to increase new conscripts. It will be able to force industry to work towards the war effort. All major increases in its force.
With its new territories being attacked by Ukraine, it can also get manpower and armour help from a few other countries.
Whilst this may make little difference for a few months, it will change things, probably significantly, by the end of the year. It is however likely that some troops from its regular army will be deployed immediately. Meanwhile Ukraine is unlikely to make much more progress as the fields get muddy and the rivers fill up - likely within the next few weeks.
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There we have it then. Escalate to de-escalate. Back off or I nuke you.
There is absolutely no way the west can bow to this intimidation, it's grim. I think we have to hope, either China can restrain him or something happens in Russia to remove him from power.
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There we have it then. Escalate to de-escalate. Back off or I nuke you.
There is absolutely no way the west can bow to this intimidation, it's grim. I think we have to hope, either China can restrain him or something happens in Russia to remove him from power.
Hopefully its the latter.
Hes Getting desperate now. The worrying thing is desperate times, call for desperate measures.
Could be a Bluff of course, but Putin is clearly out of his mind. His paranoia of the west holds no boundaries.
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"With its new territories being attacked by Ukraine,"
Is this a parody account?
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There we have it then. Escalate to de-escalate. Back off or I nuke you.
There is absolutely no way the west can bow to this intimidation, it's grim. I think we have to hope, either China can restrain him or something happens in Russia to remove him from power.
Moscow will be flattened if he set a Nuke off
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Journo here is saying Macron who's spent 100 hrs or more talking to putin and Erdoğan should step up and try to make him see reason, if that's at all possible.
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Journo here is saying Macron who's spent 100 hrs or more talking to putin and Erdoğan should step up and try to make him see reason, if that's at all possible.
You can’t reason with Putin, he’s a lying bas**rd, it was only days ago he was telling the Indian President he wanted to end the War
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Is this his last throw of the dice before he presses the instant sunshine button?
He sounds rather desperate to me and this willy waving is a means of showing he is still in control - even when his 'special operation' has derailed badly. Not sure how many will be running to the front line - time will tell. However, they currently don't seem able to resupply the conscripts cowboys he already has deployed..... so not sure how this is going to play out logistically - training, equipping, feeding and moving another 300k ain't happening overnight....
He has warned the west that 'this is not a bluff'...... personally I think it is and he is grasping...
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"With its new territories being attacked by Ukraine,"
Is this a parody account?
Desperate and wilfully deluded. It would be all the West's fault even if Putin were to launch nuclear.
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Mobilisation is going to do sweet FA. The regular Russian army has lost a massive chunk of its officers & 2000 of its 3000 front line tanks and it's all but run out of munitions. You're not going to fix that by calling up taxi drivers from Yakutsk.
He's lost the war on the battlefield. He's now lashing out threatening an escalation in a final attempt to bully everyone.
But here's the thing. The fact that the announcement was delayed 16 hours says a lot. It says to me that he's not in absolute control anymore. The delay wasn't about finessing detail because there wasn't any detail in the announcement. It can only be because there was uncertainty or disagreement in the background.
I've said all along that he's a low grade thug who has made his way by picking weak enemies to beat up. He f**ked up beyond all measure this time and he's flou dering utterly out of his depth.
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Good strong message from Ben Wallace
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Flights out of Moscow sold out after Putins address, it seems his people are not keen on the General mobilisation
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Flights out of Moscow sold out after Putins address, it seems his people are not keen on the General mobilisation
I thought that would happen. I bet the roads are full too.
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Journo here is saying Macron who's spent 100 hrs or more talking to putin and Erdoğan should step up and try to make him see reason, if that's at all possible.
The fact that people like Macron and Erdoğan have been seen to be attempting to hold dialogue with Putin has in effect enabled him to somehow maintain he's still relevant and a statesman on the world stage.
What they should of been doing is maintaining back channels out of the public domain, and telling this warmonger that in no uncertain terms would Russia ever be allowed back into normal society whist they continue to carry out this "special operation" and with people like him in control. Under no circumstances should the west have been seen to be trying to negotiate with this type of rouge state.
Pressure needs applying to prominent Russians, especially those outside the confines of Russia, until such a time people like Putin and his desperate cabal are removed one way or another then Russia will be sent back into the dark ages, either economically or politically. with finance or Nukes.
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https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2022/09/20/russian-lawmakers-approve-long-jail-terms-for-military-surrender-refusal-to-serve-a78843
Russian lawmakers passed sweeping legislation Tuesday introducing jail terms of up to 15 years for wartime acts, including surrendering, as the country’s forces face major battlefield setbacks nearly seven months after invading Ukraine.
Voluntary surrender and looting are punished by 10 and 15 years in prison, respectively, with “mobilization, martial law and wartime” listed as aggravating circumstances.
Desertion during mobilization or wartime will be punished by up to 10 years, according to the bill authored by members of all parties represented in parliament.
Conscientious objectors are punished by up to three years in prison during wartime.
The bill introduces the concepts of “mobilization, martial law and wartime” previously not mentioned in the Russian Criminal Code, according to human rights lawyer Pavel Chikov, who first reported on the draft Duma bill.
Observers speculate that its passage paves the way for general mobilization amid Russia’s struggles to replenish its depleting troops in Ukraine.
Soldiers who refuse service can be jailed even without martial law, military lawyer Maxim Grebenyuk told the independent news website Vyorstka, pointing to language in the legislation that punishes soldiers during an “armed conflict.”
The State Duma, Russia’s lower house of parliament, voted unanimously in favor of the bill, Chikov said.
Russia’s upper house of parliament, the Federation Council, is expected to pass the draft bill on Wednesday, according to state media.
The wartime jail terms will then come into force the day President Vladimir Putin signs the bill into law.
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Reports on social media of a growing 35km long traffic jam at the Finland border.
https://twitter.com/i/status/1572568782748680194
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Another day..... another clumsy accidental death..
https://www.newsweek.com/putin-ally-dies-falling-down-stairs-day-russia-mobilization-1744944
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General mobilisation will do two things, it will bring mass to Russian army in Ukraine and bring mass casualties to Russian hospitals as under trained, under equipped and of poorly led troops are led to the front to face a well equipped and motivated Ukrainian army.
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Mobilisation is going to do sweet FA. The regular Russian army has lost a massive chunk of its officers & 2000 of its 3000 front line tanks and it's all but run out of munitions. You're not going to fix that by calling up taxi drivers from Yakutsk.
He's lost the war on the battlefield. He's now lashing out threatening an escalation in a final attempt to bully everyone.
But here's the thing. The fact that the announcement was delayed 16 hours says a lot. It says to me that he's not in absolute control anymore. The delay wasn't about finessing detail because there wasn't any detail in the announcement. It can only be because there was uncertainty or disagreement in the background.
I've said all along that he's a low grade thug who has made his way by picking weak enemies to beat up. He f**ked up beyond all measure this time and he's flou dering utterly out of his depth.
Mobilisation of 200 to 300k made up of combat experienced and fully trained troops will undoubtedly make a difference. Included there for instance are pilots who will be flying a few hundred aircraft that till now haven't been used. The taxi drivers are on the Ukraine side, that's been made clear. Well motivated, but minimally trained.
Ukraine has lost possibly 100k of its military already. Russia far far less. One tactic of Russia has been to use Chechens, Donbas people, Wagners to do most of its fighting, and taking the majority of losses on that side. This has minimised, not stopped, the amount of Russians taken out.
These extra troops are a miniscule proportion of what Russia can call up. Long term Ukraine is in deep shit, though they could instigate an offensive on the southern front before the referendums. This could bear fruit in the short term. As the rain arrives, they will be severely hindered. As winter comes, they will be outnumbered as well as outgunned.
Russia has been planning this for some time, why wouldn't they? So things are in place for a fairly swift instigation of this plan.
Tanks - I doubt that very much, about as true as the taxi driver confusion. Plus Russia is mobilising workers to produce more arms.
The question is whether Ukraine leaders are so far down the Western rabbit hole to continue and not get back to their negotiations, where they were before Winston Johnson told them the solution to their problem was oven ready.
We are in dire danger of a nuke war. Will the yanksaand NATO countries push things? I can assure you, there's no freedom coming anybodies way if they do.
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There is no choice.
We have to stand fast now or face the Jack boot in the face for ever.
We have no choice. Come what may we can only defy Putin.
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Journo here is saying Macron who's spent 100 hrs or more talking to putin and Erdoğan should step up and try to make him see reason, if that's at all possible.
The fact that people like Macron and Erdoğan have been seen to be attempting to hold dialogue with Putin has in effect enabled him to somehow maintain he's still relevant and a statesman on the world stage.
What they should of been doing is maintaining back channels out of the public domain, and telling this warmonger that in no uncertain terms would Russia ever be allowed back into normal society whist they continue to carry out this "special operation" and with people like him in control. Under no circumstances should the west have been seen to be trying to negotiate with this type of rouge state.
Pressure needs applying to prominent Russians, especially those outside the confines of Russia, until such a time people like Putin and his desperate cabal are removed one way or another then Russia will be sent back into the dark ages, either economically or politically. with finance or Nukes.
I guess negotiating grain shipments must have been a waste of time then
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What it comes down to is principle.
Might alone cannot be right. Churchill was right in that respect.
The West can never give up on its principles. Putin can either fight conventionally and lose or defy us with weapons of mass destruction and so lose.
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"200 to 300 thousand combat experienced and fully trained troops..."
Trained I can buy - even if they are reservists. Fully trained sounds hyperbolic. But combat experienced? Where pray? Old men from Afghanistan? Thugs from bullying in Chechnya 20 years ago? Syria? Experienced in fighting ill armed amateur partisans?
BobG
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Mobilisation of 200 to 300k made up of combat experienced and fully trained troops will undoubtedly make a difference. Included there for instance are pilots who will be flying a few hundred aircraft that till now haven't been used. The taxi drivers are on the Ukraine side, that's been made clear. Well motivated, but minimally trained.
Ukraine has lost possibly 100k of its military already. Russia far far less. One tactic of Russia has been to use Chechens, Donbas people, Wagners to do most of its fighting, and taking the majority of losses on that side. This has minimised, not stopped, the amount of Russians taken out.
These extra troops are a miniscule proportion of what Russia can call up. Long term Ukraine is in deep shit, though they could instigate an offensive on the southern front before the referendums. This could bear fruit in the short term. As the rain arrives, they will be severely hindered. As winter comes, they will be outnumbered as well as outgunned.
Russia has been planning this for some time, why wouldn't they? So things are in place for a fairly swift instigation of this plan.
Tanks - I doubt that very much, about as true as the taxi driver confusion. Plus Russia is mobilising workers to produce more arms.
The question is whether Ukraine leaders are so far down the Western rabbit hole to continue and not get back to their negotiations, where they were before Winston Johnson told them the solution to their problem was oven ready.
We are in dire danger of a nuke war. Will the yanksaand NATO countries push things? I can assure you, there's no freedom coming anybodies way if they do.
So, BRR, you've spent the last six months soaking up and regurgitating all of the pro-Russian propaganda bullshit being served up to you whilst totally refusing to hear all of the voices telling you it was bullshit, and now the Russians have unequivocally confirmed it was all bullshit and your response to that is to continue your pro-Russian crusade.
You are one sad and deluded individual.
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Found this on Twitter from @osintschizo
Using this allegedly leaked document from the Russian Finance Ministry we can come up with some updated estimates on Russian losses in Ukraine. This document alleges that as of August 28th, Russia had 48,759 troops KIA.
Part 2. Using this letter we get a per day Russian KIA average of 268. Since this letter 24 days ago using the average we get an additional 6,432 Russian KIA making the grand total of Russian KIA of 55,191 (81 more than Ukrainian Government estimate as of today)
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"200 to 300 thousand combat experienced and fully trained troops..."
Trained I can buy - even if they are reservists. Fully trained sounds hyperbolic. But combat experienced? Where pray? Old men from Afghanistan? Thugs from bullying in Chechnya 20 years ago? Syria? Experienced in fighting ill armed amateur partisans?
BobG
Chechnya, Syria. You might doubt their skills, time will tell. But likely to be netter than Taxi drivers.
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Mobilisation of 200 to 300k made up of combat experienced and fully trained troops will undoubtedly make a difference. Included there for instance are pilots who will be flying a few hundred aircraft that till now haven't been used. The taxi drivers are on the Ukraine side, that's been made clear. Well motivated, but minimally trained.
Ukraine has lost possibly 100k of its military already. Russia far far less. One tactic of Russia has been to use Chechens, Donbas people, Wagners to do most of its fighting, and taking the majority of losses on that side. This has minimised, not stopped, the amount of Russians taken out.
These extra troops are a miniscule proportion of what Russia can call up. Long term Ukraine is in deep shit, though they could instigate an offensive on the southern front before the referendums. This could bear fruit in the short term. As the rain arrives, they will be severely hindered. As winter comes, they will be outnumbered as well as outgunned.
Russia has been planning this for some time, why wouldn't they? So things are in place for a fairly swift instigation of this plan.
Tanks - I doubt that very much, about as true as the taxi driver confusion. Plus Russia is mobilising workers to produce more arms.
The question is whether Ukraine leaders are so far down the Western rabbit hole to continue and not get back to their negotiations, where they were before Winston Johnson told them the solution to their problem was oven ready.
We are in dire danger of a nuke war. Will the yanksaand NATO countries push things? I can assure you, there's no freedom coming anybodies way if they do.
So, BRR, you've spent the last six months soaking up and regurgitating all of the pro-Russian propaganda bullshit being served up to you whilst totally refusing to hear all of the voices telling you it was bullshit, and now the Russians have unequivocally confirmed it was all bullshit and your response to that is to continue your pro-Russian crusade.
You are one sad and deluded individual.
I think you missed what I said. Up to you to choose to believe what you read or not, enjoy.
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Found this on Twitter from @osintschizo
Using this allegedly leaked document from the Russian Finance Ministry we can come up with some updated estimates on Russian losses in Ukraine. This document alleges that as of August 28th, Russia had 48,759 troops KIA.
Part 2. Using this letter we get a per day Russian KIA average of 268. Since this letter 24 days ago using the average we get an additional 6,432 Russian KIA making the grand total of Russian KIA of 55,191 (81 more than Ukrainian Government estimate as of today)
If that's true, it is likely half of what Ukraine has lost. But there's no evidence that's not Ukraine/NATO misinfo, tho most likely a Ukraine keyboard warrior.
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If Russia's losses are so low, why do they need to recruit another 300,000 on top of those prisoners? Wagner have already transported those prisoners to Ukraine, as confirmed by one of the prisoners wives. No training whatsoever.
Also appears we should take 'reservists' tag with a very large pinch of salt. Police have been issued with mobilisation notices to serve to any male between 18 & 60 who they see fit to do so.
https://youtu.be/QyCBeymp4Rg
This vid talks about the mobilisation from 10 mins in. Obviously from a Ukranian bias so again pinch of salt maybe required.
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You reckon they used reservists en masse in Syria and Chechnya? You are so, so far down the rabbit hole it's actually frightening to watch.
What Putin seems to be planning is not some strategic masterpiece planned all along, but something similar to how Stalin beat the Germans in the Great Patriotic War. Get column of 8 troops with 2 guns between them. Soldier at the front has one gun. He advances until he's shot. Then the 2nd soldier picks up the gun. Etc.
Where's the second gun you say? That's with the 8th soldier at the back of the column. His job is to shoot any of the other 7 who try to run away.
That's not much of an exaggeration of how Stalin won the Eastern Front in 1943-45. Throw peasant cannon fodder into the front line until the enemy is overwhelmed. It resulted in literally untold millions of deaths.
Putin has already been doing something similar in Donbas, putting his troops into a meat grinder to painfully win villages in weeks of fighting, which they then ran away from as soon as the counter-offensive started. If he is going to double down on that it will be a tragedy on a massive scale. Because the simple fact is that Ukraine has access to weapons of an infinitely better quality and in higher numbers than Russia can now muster. Which is why he's trying to raise the stakes by illegally incorporating Donestk, Luhansk and Kherson into Russia and claiming that Ukraine fighting there will e a direct attack on Russian land.
It's illegal.. It's immoral. It's militarily unsustainable. It's insanely dangerous because of the risk of escalation.
It's what only an out of his depth frightened bully would do. And it is pitiful that idiots in the West, drunk on Putin's propaganda, would try to support and justify it.
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Found this on Twitter from @osintschizo
Using this allegedly leaked document from the Russian Finance Ministry we can come up with some updated estimates on Russian losses in Ukraine. This document alleges that as of August 28th, Russia had 48,759 troops KIA.
Part 2. Using this letter we get a per day Russian KIA average of 268. Since this letter 24 days ago using the average we get an additional 6,432 Russian KIA making the grand total of Russian KIA of 55,191 (81 more than Ukrainian Government estimate as of today)
If that's true, it is likely half of what Ukraine has lost. But there's no evidence that's not Ukraine/NATO misinfo, tho most likely a Ukraine keyboard warrior.
Big deep breath.
Come on then. Where's your evidence on Ukraine losses?
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It’s very strange that now, on the back of the mobilisation news, they have decided to release POW’s
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It’s very strange that now, on the back of the mobilisation news, they have decided to release POW’s
In fairness, it's not a one-way release, it's an exchange. There's some very unprofessional reporting which only concentrates on the fact that Russia is leasing POWs. Bi-lateral exchanges often happen in modern conflicts.
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You reckon they used reservists en masse in Syria and Chechnya? You are so, so far down the rabbit hole it's actually frightening to watch.
What Putin seems to be planning is not some strategic masterpiece planned all along, but something similar to how Stalin beat the Germans in the Great Patriotic War. Get column of 8 troops with 2 guns between them. Soldier at the front has one gun. He advances until he's shot. Then the 2nd soldier picks up the gun. Etc.
Where's the second gun you say? That's with the 8th soldier at the back of the column. His job is to shoot any of the other 7 who try to run away.
That's not much of an exaggeration of how Stalin won the Eastern Front in 1943-45. Throw peasant cannon fodder into the front line until the enemy is overwhelmed. It resulted in literally untold millions of deaths.
Putin has already been doing something similar in Donbas, putting his troops into a meat grinder to painfully win villages in weeks of fighting, which they then ran away from as soon as the counter-offensive started. If he is going to double down on that it will be a tragedy on a massive scale. Because the simple fact is that Ukraine has access to weapons of an infinitely better quality and in higher numbers than Russia can now muster. Which is why he's trying to raise the stakes by illegally incorporating Donestk, Luhansk and Kherson into Russia and claiming that Ukraine fighting there will e a direct attack on Russian land.
It's illegal.. It's immoral. It's militarily unsustainable. It's insanely dangerous because of the risk of escalation.
It's what only an out of his depth frightened bully would do. And it is pitiful that idiots in the West, drunk on Putin's propaganda, would try to support and justify it.
Not reservists in Chechnya, combat experienced for Ukraine. Not sure why this is so difficult for you to understand?
The two gun story isn't relating to anything but your fantasy.
This is a huge increase in experienced Russian manpower backed up with upgraded weapons. .
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Found this on Twitter from @osintschizo
Using this allegedly leaked document from the Russian Finance Ministry we can come up with some updated estimates on Russian losses in Ukraine. This document alleges that as of August 28th, Russia had 48,759 troops KIA.
Part 2. Using this letter we get a per day Russian KIA average of 268. Since this letter 24 days ago using the average we get an additional 6,432 Russian KIA making the grand total of Russian KIA of 55,191 (81 more than Ukrainian Government estimate as of today)
If that's true, it is likely half of what Ukraine has lost. But there's no evidence that's not Ukraine/NATO misinfo, tho most likely a Ukraine keyboard warrior.
Big deep breath.
Come on then. Where's your evidence on Ukraine losses?
They've been pounded by artillery, 5 to 10 times the shelling that Ukraine has returned. Russia and Ukraine agree on this. What's your estimation?
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No doubt theres 1000s of deaths, but considering they don't care if it's a nursery, shop or barracks they lob shells at it could any percentage of troops to old ladies killed.
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Found this on Twitter from @osintschizo
Using this allegedly leaked document from the Russian Finance Ministry we can come up with some updated estimates on Russian losses in Ukraine. This document alleges that as of August 28th, Russia had 48,759 troops KIA.
Part 2. Using this letter we get a per day Russian KIA average of 268. Since this letter 24 days ago using the average we get an additional 6,432 Russian KIA making the grand total of Russian KIA of 55,191 (81 more than Ukrainian Government estimate as of today)
If that's true, it is likely half of what Ukraine has lost. But there's no evidence that's not Ukraine/NATO misinfo, tho most likely a Ukraine keyboard warrior.
Big deep breath.
Come on then. Where's your evidence on Ukraine losses?
They've been pounded by artillery, 5 to 10 times the shelling that Ukraine has returned. Russia and Ukraine agree on this. What's your estimation?
So you are guessing. Glad we cleared that up.
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Russia will never give up on its attempt to land grab eastern Ukraine. Ukraine will never want to give any of it up. There has to be a compromise here. Perhaps the people of Donbas will vot with their feet later this week . If they do. Let Russia have it . Both sides are going to have to concede something soon for all this to end . Let’s not think about the alternative .
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Russia will never give up on its attempt to land grab eastern Ukraine. Ukraine will never want to give any of it up. There has to be a compromise here. Perhaps the people of Donbas will vot with their feet later this week . If they do. Let Russia have it . Both sides are going to have to concede something soon for all this to end . Let’s not think about the alternative .
They Ukrainians in Donbas have left their homeland. There are 9 million displaced people from there. Of course the sham referendums will indicate that there is a majority for union with Russia.
What you are saying is that we should all be complicit in allowing Russia that gain for their aggression.
And then what? What happens when Putin decides he's having the Baltics? Or Moldova? Or Poland?
There's a simple decision here. You stop Putin here and now. Or you let him dictate the future to Europe.
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Russia will never give up on its attempt to land grab eastern Ukraine. Ukraine will never want to give any of it up. There has to be a compromise here. Perhaps the people of Donbas will vot with their feet later this week . If they do. Let Russia have it . Both sides are going to have to concede something soon for all this to end . Let’s not think about the alternative .
ironic innit when you read this
from 2018
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2159713/russia-offers-25-million-acres-land-chinese-farmers
and of course you all remember this ... i certainly do
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_on_the_Far_Eastern_Hectare
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Mobilisation has apparently started....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-63002654
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Mobilisation started immediately, there are reports now that they are actually looking to recruit 1 million.
And they have been serving anti war demonstrators they have picked up with draft papers. That should be a pretty good deterrent to protest.
No wonder so many have been fleeing for the borders, though I doubt this option will remain open for long. Finland is reportedly going to close its border to Russia to those with tourist papers soon.
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I think Putin’s lost the dressing room
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"The two gun story isn't relating to anything but your fantasy."
Really..... That, I am now convinced, sums up your knowledge of history Bristol. It didn't happen all the time, and it happened less and less as Allied manufacturing got to grips with the need, but happen it did - although on a different level to 8 men and 2 guns. Companies, regiments and even brigades. Prisoners released to walk, unarmed, in front of troops sometimes too... to clear the minefields. They had Comrades pointing, and firing, guns at them too.
BobG
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Heard this on the radio today, I think it was from someone at the UN.
If Russia stops fighting the war will end. If Ukraine stops fighting Ukraine will end.
Putin can mobilise 100's of thousands of people who dont particurly want to be there as much as he likes. The Ukranians know exactly why they are fighting - these conscripts dont.
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Mobilisation is going to do sweet FA. The regular Russian army has lost a massive chunk of its officers & 2000 of its 3000 front line tanks and it's all but run out of munitions. You're not going to fix that by calling up taxi drivers from Yakutsk.
He's lost the war on the battlefield. He's now lashing out threatening an escalation in a final attempt to bully everyone.
But here's the thing. The fact that the announcement was delayed 16 hours says a lot. It says to me that he's not in absolute control anymore. The delay wasn't about finessing detail because there wasn't any detail in the announcement. It can only be because there was uncertainty or disagreement in the background.
I've said all along that he's a low grade thug who has made his way by picking weak enemies to beat up. He f**ked up beyond all measure this time and he's flou dering utterly out of his depth.
Mobilisation of 200 to 300k made up of combat experienced and fully trained troops will undoubtedly make a difference. Included there for instance are pilots who will be flying a few hundred aircraft that till now haven't been used. The taxi drivers are on the Ukraine side, that's been made clear. Well motivated, but minimally trained.
Ukraine has lost possibly 100k of its military already. Russia far far less. One tactic of Russia has been to use Chechens, Donbas people, Wagners to do most of its fighting, and taking the majority of losses on that side. This has minimised, not stopped, the amount of Russians taken out.
These extra troops are a miniscule proportion of what Russia can call up. Long term Ukraine is in deep shit, though they could instigate an offensive on the southern front before the referendums. This could bear fruit in the short term. As the rain arrives, they will be severely hindered. As winter comes, they will be outnumbered as well as outgunned.
Russia has been planning this for some time, why wouldn't they? So things are in place for a fairly swift instigation of this plan.
Tanks - I doubt that very much, about as true as the taxi driver confusion. Plus Russia is mobilising workers to produce more arms.
The question is whether Ukraine leaders are so far down the Western rabbit hole to continue and not get back to their negotiations, where they were before Winston Johnson told them the solution to their problem was oven ready.
We are in dire danger of a nuke war. Will the yanksaand NATO countries push things? I can assure you, there's no freedom coming anybodies way if they do.
All I can say is that this is some mad shit. You drank more Putin kool aid than those mental Russian milbloggers!
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We are in a situation whereby Ukraine have been rotating forces throughout, with them taking time away from the front line, others being trained abroad etc.
On the other hand, you've got Russians who've signed 3 to 6 month contracts who were expecting to go home and get their payout after months of gruelling combat under heavy fire with no break but are now having their short term contract indefinitely extended with no recourse and their units are going to be gapfilled by some random f**king dudes from the provinces.
And that is just the morale side of the deep hole the Russians are in, not to mention quality, logistics, weapons. And winter in trenches.
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The next huge risk is, once the referendums are held; and there are suggestions 80-90% of residents in the Donbas areas under Russian control want to be Russian, then any future attack on these annexed areas will be seen as an attack on Russia. And if the rhetoric continues from the Kremlin about Western weapons being used to now attack Russian soil, then we will be in a very different scenario.
Putin is paving the way for justification of defence of Russia as a whole.
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So much for the mobilization of "reservists"....
https://oilprice.com/Latest-Energy-News/World-News/Putin-Forces-All-Energy-Workers-To-Register-For-Military-Draft.html
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I guess the 'new' middle class that can afford to are heading for the border
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Even if they’ve had absolutely no training prior to departure and are just shoved on a train, it is going to be at least a month before this fine body of men make it to the front line - wherever that line may end up being.... although considering their logistical competencies to date - I would suggest it may take considerably longer..
If they do arrive within this time scale, they will be arriving just as winter breaks.... so, in my opinion, their first consideration should not be getting shot, it should be dying of frostbite/exposure without sufficient kit or logistical support.
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A few of Putin's well trained, combat experienced 300,00 fighters here - https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1573295980635643907?s=20&t=zjdU_oXQtEx-lxWxKS_nog. Class.
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I'm genuinely getting a bit worried that we're closer to nuclear war than we've ever been.
Putin has the look of a lone wolf mass shooter about him right now. Doesn't matter if he goes down as long as he causes as much death and destruction as possible.
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One of the problems with Putin is the guff he utters and reality - you cannot rely on anything he says from denying Russia was behind the Salisbury poisonings to everything is going to plan. The nazis governing Ukraine is another piece of guff and the liberation of that country by Russia. There is a pattern with Putin - guess what it is?
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Footage of how the referendums are being conducted - spoiler alert - they turn up at your house with a clipboard and machine gun
https://twitter.com/KevinRothrock/status/1573342724077801475
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Russia will never give up on its attempt to land grab eastern Ukraine. Ukraine will never want to give any of it up. There has to be a compromise here. Perhaps the people of Donbas will vot with their feet later this week . If they do. Let Russia have it . Both sides are going to have to concede something soon for all this to end . Let’s not think about the alternative .
They Ukrainians in Donbas have left their homeland. There are 9 million displaced people from there. Of course the sham referendums will indicate that there is a majority for union with Russia.
What you are saying is that we should all be complicit in allowing Russia that gain for their aggression.
And then what? What happens when Putin decides he's having the Baltics? Or Moldova? Or Poland?
There's a simple decision here. You stop Putin here and now. Or you let him dictate the future to Europe.
Seems you miss the point of the referenda. Its for implementing the new moves re increasing troops.
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"The two gun story isn't relating to anything but your fantasy."
Really..... That, I am now convinced, sums up your knowledge of history Bristol. It didn't happen all the time, and it happened less and less as Allied manufacturing got to grips with the need, but happen it did - although on a different level to 8 men and 2 guns. Companies, regiments and even brigades. Prisoners released to walk, unarmed, in front of troops sometimes too... to clear the minefields. They had Comrades pointing, and firing, guns at them too.
BobG
I was talking about his fantasy about the current situation Bob :)
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Not seen it yet, but made me laugh....
(https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/attachments/1663942204905-png.696403/)
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Russia will never give up on its attempt to land grab eastern Ukraine. Ukraine will never want to give any of it up. There has to be a compromise here. Perhaps the people of Donbas will vot with their feet later this week . If they do. Let Russia have it . Both sides are going to have to concede something soon for all this to end . Let’s not think about the alternative .
They Ukrainians in Donbas have left their homeland. There are 9 million displaced people from there. Of course the sham referendums will indicate that there is a majority for union with Russia.
What you are saying is that we should all be complicit in allowing Russia that gain for their aggression.
And then what? What happens when Putin decides he's having the Baltics? Or Moldova? Or Poland?
There's a simple decision here. You stop Putin here and now. Or you let him dictate the future to Europe.
Seems you miss the point of the referenda. Its for implementing the new moves re increasing troops.
Is
It
f**k
It's Putin's stupid bullying attempt to pass off the occupied provinces of Luhansk, Donetsk, Zaphorizya and Kherson as being part Mother Russia, so that any attack on them can theoretically be claimed to be an attack on Russian soil, justifying the use of nukes as defence.
It's what a deranged thug-bully would try to pull off to save face in the impending threat of a total defeat.
It won't happen because his military would do him in before authorising such an act of suicide.
But you keep telling yourself he has a strategy he's working to. Like the fascist dictator fanboy you are.
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Why do you look to the hysterical, and react in that way? It's almost like you're the successful prime target of western propaganda. Though to be fair there's many more on here drinking from the same cauldron.
It is about mobilising. If Ukraine doesn't attack the territories then Russia will have problems with its mobilisation, if not now then in the future. Sure the nuke option is there but they won't be using that. And really, if Ukraine wants to nuke, they will anyway. Just as the west would - not that you'd believe that as you are lost in a bubble.
I'm no fan of Putin, but I can see why he is doing what he is doing, which is actually what the Russian leaders are doing, this is far from just Putin. Nice for you to fall in line again with the western propaganda - Hitler has only got one ball eh! In terms of a chess game, he's trashing the west, not sure what the west will do when it's lost it's Ukraine pawn. Or maybe you can't see that?
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Why do you look to the hysterical, and react in that way? It's almost like you're the successful prime target of western propaganda. Though to be fair there's many more on here drinking from the same cauldron.
It is about mobilising. If Ukraine doesn't attack the territories then Russia will have problems with its mobilisation, if not now then in the future. Sure the nuke option is there but they won't be using that. And really, if Ukraine wants to nuke, they will anyway. Just as the west would - not that you'd believe that as you are lost in a bubble.
I'm no fan of Putin, but I can see why he is doing what he is doing, which is actually what the Russian leaders are doing, this is far from just Putin. Nice for you to fall in line again with the western propaganda - Hitler has only got one ball eh! In terms of a chess game, he's trashing the west, not sure what the west will do when it's lost it's Ukraine pawn. Or maybe you can't see that?
You are deluded!
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Nearly. I caught myself thinking you made a point :lol:
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Russia will never give up on its attempt to land grab eastern Ukraine. Ukraine will never want to give any of it up. There has to be a compromise here. Perhaps the people of Donbas will vot with their feet later this week . If they do. Let Russia have it . Both sides are going to have to concede something soon for all this to end . Let’s not think about the alternative .
They Ukrainians in Donbas have left their homeland. There are 9 million displaced people from there. Of course the sham referendums will indicate that there is a majority for union with Russia.
What you are saying is that we should all be complicit in allowing Russia that gain for their aggression.
And then what? What happens when Putin decides he's having the Baltics? Or Moldova? Or Poland?
There's a simple decision here. You stop Putin here and now. Or you let him dictate the future to Europe.
Ok. Putin is pushed back, back to the Russian border, his armed forces are decimated, and Ukraine then attack beyond their borders into Russia. Then what?
Putin, backed into a corner. A failed conflict. An armed force a glimmer of what it once was. A global power a shadow of its former self. But it still has a nuclear option.
This is the doomsday scenario.
Putin. The cornered rat.
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Ukraine won't put a toe over the border into true Russia.
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In this case Ukraine is the rat being cornered by putin.
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Following the Russian moves, Ukraine appears to be further mobilising including recently preventing a lower age group leaving the territory.
Before these extra, there's approx 1 million Ukraines serving of which approx 700k are troops (the rest are police etc), and of them at least 100k dead or wounded. Yes BST, rough figures, but lets see yours before you criticise. With the recent Russian injection of troops, which is likely to be more than 300k, it's going to be roughly even in numbers, though the Russians are more experienced.
I have heard that the extra Ukraine mobilisation could be from 1 to 3 million. How well they can be armed will be the issue. And then will Russia respond with further call ups? Ultimately Russia has far far more available, but the further the call ups go, the lower the quality - just the same for Ukraine. The biggest part of this will be so many lower quality troops on both sides being slaughtered.
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Ukraine wouldn’t have needed to mobilise had Russia not invaded. Any country that is illegally invaded by their neighbours has every right to defend itself and mobilise its citizens to protect itself
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Yeah but...NATO! EU!
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Why do you look to the hysterical, and react in that way? It's almost like you're the successful prime target of western propaganda. Though to be fair there's many more on here drinking from the same cauldron.
It is about mobilising. If Ukraine doesn't attack the territories then Russia will have problems with its mobilisation, if not now then in the future. Sure the nuke option is there but they won't be using that. And really, if Ukraine wants to nuke, they will anyway. Just as the west would - not that you'd believe that as you are lost in a bubble.
I'm no fan of Putin, but I can see why he is doing what he is doing, which is actually what the Russian leaders are doing, this is far from just Putin. Nice for you to fall in line again with the western propaganda - Hitler has only got one ball eh! In terms of a chess game, he's trashing the west, not sure what the west will do when it's lost it's Ukraine pawn. Or maybe you can't see that?
'I'm no fan of Putin' - it's just a coincidence I happen to agree with everything he is doing, the way he is doing it defend his actions from any and all scrutiny and criticise anything those opposing him say.
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I just watched an American made documentary about 'Putin's Road to War'. It's being broadcast over here on the PBS America network on Channel 84 on Freeview.
Although some will criticise it for using emotive photographs and videos, I was super impressed, and scared, by the history of the last 22 years of Putin. We forget a lot. But lay it out, historical fact after historical fact, and the picture it paints of Putin is downright nasty. It'll be repeated. It's worth an hour of anybody's time.
BobG
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Interviews with people in Mariupol focusing on the referendum. You may disagree, but I don't see that these people are actors. What is said goes with everything I've seen and heard directly, as opposed to 2nd and 3rd hand reports from Western/Ukraine media.
You can go back to hear what the previous guy said but this one, and the woman after describe clearly what happened there in the fighting.
https://youtu.be/UE2J0leMgdU?t=740
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I wouldn't trust the bloke in the hoody to give me directions to a bus stop
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Run that "everything I've seen and heard directly" bit by me again BRR.
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I just watched an American made documentary about 'Putin's Road to War'. It's being broadcast over here on the PBS America network on Channel 84 on Freeview.
Although some will criticise it for using emotive photographs and videos, I was super impressed, and scared, by the history of the last 22 years of Putin. We forget a lot. But lay it out, historical fact after historical fact, and the picture it paints of Putin is downright nasty. It'll be repeated. It's worth an hour of anybody's time.
BobG
I haven't seen this yet. It's a US made docu, and from what I can see the writer is very firmly on the Democrat side of things. Nothing else he has done seems to challenge the US interference on the world. Do you think the perspective and spin here may be coming from a position of wanting to do down Putin?
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I wouldn't trust the bloke in the hoody to give me directions to a bus stop
Fair enough, and the others? The woman?
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Interviews with people in Mariupol focusing on the referendum. You may disagree, but I don't see that these people are actors. What is said goes with everything I've seen and heard directly, as opposed to 2nd and 3rd hand reports from Western/Ukraine media.
You can go back to hear what the previous guy said but this one, and the woman after describe clearly what happened there in the fighting.
https://youtu.be/UE2J0leMgdU?t=740
But you're just linking to a random YouTuber guy embedded in Russian forces. No different to those reports coming through from the other outlets who are part of the Western Conspiracy. The fact is there is a tonne of ethnic Russian people in many parts of Ukraine who have their own opinions and viewpoints. You are going to get that anywhere.
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I just watched an American made documentary about 'Putin's Road to War'. It's being broadcast over here on the PBS America network on Channel 84 on Freeview.
Although some will criticise it for using emotive photographs and videos, I was super impressed, and scared, by the history of the last 22 years of Putin. We forget a lot. But lay it out, historical fact after historical fact, and the picture it paints of Putin is downright nasty. It'll be repeated. It's worth an hour of anybody's time.
BobG
I haven't seen this yet. It's a US made docu, and from what I can see the writer is very firmly on the Democrat side of things. Nothing else he has done seems to challenge the US interference on the world. Do you think the perspective and spin here may be coming from a position of wanting to do down Putin?
What you have linked to is also 'US made'. He's American.
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Run that "everything I've seen and heard directly" bit by me again BRR.
Countless interviews. Following the path of destruction.
What have you heard and from where?
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I just watched an American made documentary about 'Putin's Road to War'. It's being broadcast over here on the PBS America network on Channel 84 on Freeview.
Although some will criticise it for using emotive photographs and videos, I was super impressed, and scared, by the history of the last 22 years of Putin. We forget a lot. But lay it out, historical fact after historical fact, and the picture it paints of Putin is downright nasty. It'll be repeated. It's worth an hour of anybody's time.
BobG
I haven't seen this yet. It's a US made docu, and from what I can see the writer is very firmly on the Democrat side of things. Nothing else he has done seems to challenge the US interference on the world. Do you think the perspective and spin here may be coming from a position of wanting to do down Putin?
What you have linked to is also 'US made'. He's American.
He's ex US military. He lives in Russia.
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Countless interviews? You've been to Ukaine and interviewed folk? Respect!
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Interviews with people in Mariupol focusing on the referendum. You may disagree, but I don't see that these people are actors. What is said goes with everything I've seen and heard directly, as opposed to 2nd and 3rd hand reports from Western/Ukraine media.
You can go back to hear what the previous guy said but this one, and the woman after describe clearly what happened there in the fighting.
https://youtu.be/UE2J0leMgdU?t=740
But you're just linking to a random YouTuber guy embedded in Russian forces. No different to those reports coming through from the other outlets who are part of the Western Conspiracy. The fact is there is a tonne of ethnic Russian people in many parts of Ukraine who have their own opinions and viewpoints. You are going to get that anywhere.
He's not "embedded" in Russian forces. When he does vids on the frontline he is effectively embedded, or protected if you like, by Russians. This vid, and many others are not on the frontline. He is independent, although does have a viewpoint. I've seen him interview people with a pro Ukraine viewpoint too.
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Countless interviews? You've been to Ukaine and interviewed folk? Respect!
Pft....
So tell me where you get your info? You never say? From the Ukraine MoD pretty much it seems. Have you got property in Ukraine you're worried about? If so, that would be you and the US.
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If this is right then can't see the conscripts being exactly motivated https://twitter.com/TpyxaNews/status/1574456740959195137?t=bQGCmecwgABrdGo8dlcWhg&s=19
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I struggle to understand how the publicly available record of a life of mendacity, violence, aggression, theft and appalling revenge can portray the point of view of anybody. It's all there. It's historical fact. The man is a beast. If he had 4 legs he would be put down. He should be.
BobG
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I struggle to understand how the publicly available record of a life of mendacity, violence, aggression, theft and appalling revenge can portray the point of view of anybody. It's all there. It's historical fact. The man is a beast. If he had 4 legs he would be put down. He should be.
BobG
Not saying he's anything but what you say, but then on a monstrous abusive cuddly uncle level, so is Johnson, and then so many of the US leaders and their puppet handlers couched in their protective faux democracy and flag. There's not going to be a docu on them in the same vein is there?
And then, are you saying there's no spin put on it for extra desired effect?
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I struggle to understand how the publicly available record of a life of mendacity, violence, aggression, theft and appalling revenge can portray the point of view of anybody. It's all there. It's historical fact. The man is a beast. If he had 4 legs he would be put down. He should be.
BobG
Not saying he's anything but what you say, but then on a monstrous abusive cuddly uncle level, so is Johnson, and then so many of the US leaders and their puppet handlers couched in their protective faux democracy and flag. There's not going to be a docu on them in the same vein is there?
And then, are you saying there's no spin put on it for extra desired effect?
There have been plenty of documentaries made on fascist or neo-colonical leaders wanting to take over a country. But you choose to take the side of the lastest version of Franco or Nixon rather than the invaded/legal government/local people.
We can all see you for what you are.
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I wonder how disgusted the grandkids of today's far right/left folk will be when they realise their gandparents' take on the biggest crime of the early 21st century in Europe was to repeatedly say "Yes Putin is not perfect, but America, America, America, America! NATO, NATO, NATO, NATO! EU, EU, EU, EU!"
Just like the useful idiots from the 1930s, 40s, 50s and 60s who concentrated on the failings in the West while ignoring the fact that Stalin and Mao were killing 100 million people.
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I wonder how long it will be before news emerges of Russian people being oppressed in Georgia (again) so Russia say it's their duty to protect their people and invades in another land grab!?
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I wonder how long it will be before news emerges of Russian people being oppressed in Georgia (again) so Russia say it's their duty to protect their people and invades in another land grab!?
They haven't got the resources to finish the land grab they're on with now, Baz, let alone another one.
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Here we go. Russia have just announced they will annex 4 areas of Ukraine on Friday.
This changes things significantly.
As opposed to the current situation where Ukrainian aggression can be justified as defending Ukraine, Any future attacks on annexed areas will be seen as a direct attack on Russia. Paving the way for Putin to start reacting in a much more significant way.
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NR
Russia annexed Crimea years ago. Ukraine has attacked multiple targets in Crimea without escalation happening. Putin will NOT use WMDs over Luhansk or Kherson.
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NR
Russia annexed Crimea years ago. Ukraine has attacked multiple targets in Crimea without escalation happening. Putin will NOT use WMDs over Luhansk or Kherson.
I hope, for the worlds sake, he doesn’t.
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Here we go. Russia have just announced they will annex 4 areas of Ukraine on Friday.
This changes things significantly.
As opposed to the current situation where Ukrainian aggression can be justified as defending Ukraine, Any future attacks on annexed areas will be seen as a direct attack on Russia. Paving the way for Putin to start reacting in a much more significant way.
This is entirely for domestic consumption only within Russia.
Nobody outside of Russia will recognise these areas as Russian territory. Tens of thousands of Russians are not buying it either!!
Yes, it gives Putin yet another way to justify further thuggery and now legitimise sending conscripts into these areas (which of course doing so before was unlawful)
Hopefully more shit will hit the Putin fan when these more recently mobilised troops become fertiliser.
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I think you'll find N.Korea, Syria, Iran and maybe China will be falling over to recognise Russia's new territories.
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Doubt that China will
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NR
Russia annexed Crimea years ago. Ukraine has attacked multiple targets in Crimea without escalation happening. Putin will NOT use WMDs over Luhansk or Kherson.
The attacks in Crimea are not nearly the same category as the attacks on Russian territory in the other 4 areas. I doubt very much that Russia will use even small nukes but they will be stepping up with conventional means, as will Ukraine. Meanwhile, the US sits back and watches it's virtual Vietnam.
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Here we go. Russia have just announced they will annex 4 areas of Ukraine on Friday.
This changes things significantly.
As opposed to the current situation where Ukrainian aggression can be justified as defending Ukraine, Any future attacks on annexed areas will be seen as a direct attack on Russia. Paving the way for Putin to start reacting in a much more significant way.
This is entirely for domestic consumption only within Russia.
Nobody outside of Russia will recognise these areas as Russian territory. Tens of thousands of Russians are not buying it either!!
Yes, it gives Putin yet another way to justify further thuggery and now legitimise sending conscripts into these areas (which of course doing so before was unlawful)
Hopefully more shit will hit the Putin fan when these more recently mobilised troops become fertiliser.
Afghanistan, Cuba, North Korea, Kyrgyzstan, Nicaragua, Sudan, Syria, and Zimbabwe recognise Crimea as Russian.
Syria and N Korea recognise Donetsk PR and the Luhansk PR as independent states.
Belarus, Central African Republic, Nicaragua, Sudan and Venezuela support Russia's recognition of the Donetsk PR and the Luhansk PR as independent states. 62 countries don't recognise their independent statehood.
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As Russia doesn't fully control all the area they are going to annexe, does this mean Ukraine are already invading Russia. ?
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NR
Russia annexed Crimea years ago. Ukraine has attacked multiple targets in Crimea without escalation happening. Putin will NOT use WMDs over Luhansk or Kherson.
The attacks in Crimea are not nearly the same category as the attacks on Russian territory in the other 4 areas. I doubt very much that Russia will use even small nukes but they will be stepping up with conventional means, as will Ukraine. Meanwhile, the US sits back and watches it's virtual Vietnam.
The other 4 areas are not Russian territory, they are trying to steal it
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NR
Russia annexed Crimea years ago. Ukraine has attacked multiple targets in Crimea without escalation happening. Putin will NOT use WMDs over Luhansk or Kherson.
The attacks in Crimea are not nearly the same category as the attacks on Russian territory in the other 4 areas. I doubt very much that Russia will use even small nukes but they will be stepping up with conventional means, as will Ukraine. Meanwhile, the US sits back and watches it's virtual Vietnam.
Russia doesn't have any territory in the other areas. Ukraine has territory that has been invaded by Russia. Interesting insight into your position though.
Run it by me how Russia "steps up the conventional means"? Their number 1 problem all through this venture has been a chronnic inability to maintain logistic support to the front line. What's the magic means by which they suddenly step that up?
Their second biggest problem has been maintaining a supply of munitions from the motherland. There are credible estimates that in 7 months, Russia has used up the entire output of its munitions supply system from the past several years. They don't have the production capacity to maintain that, nevermind substantially increase it.
And even assuming these two problems could be overcome, the HIMARS that Ukraine now have have proved ideal for taking out ammo stores anywhere remotely close to the front line.
There's no obvious way out of that problem for Russia. They can't ramp up conventional weapons attack. They will have a bloated, ineffective conscript army they can't supply. That's no way to fight a modern war.
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A logistical problem that has seen them out gunning Ukraine by around a factor of ten.
Where is your info from about the availability of weapons and inability to manufacture, and buy, more? How does this complare to Ukraine?
Ukraine has a bloated conscript army too. Russia has far more resources than Ukraine. Far more conscripts available.
Not sure why you are so passionately one sided in this, except for you swallowing pro west/US propaganda, which is mainly put out by the Ukraine MoD.
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A logistical problem that has seen them out gunning Ukraine by around a factor of ten.
Where is your info from about the availability of weapons and inability to manufacture, and buy, more? How does this complare to Ukraine?
Ukraine has a bloated conscript army too. Russia has far more resources than Ukraine. Far more conscripts available.
Not sure why you are so passionately one sided in this, except for you swallowing pro west/US propaganda, which is mainly put out by the Ukraine MoD.
Jesus Christ on a bike! Do you not see the irony in what you have written there?.
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The best assessment I have seen of the possibility of Putin using nuclear weapons:
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/28/opinions/how-close-putin-nuclear-war-de-bretton-gordon/index.html
I don't believe he will either, but I do think chemical weapons are a very real possibility, especially if some 'deniability' can be scraped from a 'nearby' chemical plant.
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A logistical problem that has seen them out gunning Ukraine by around a factor of ten.
Where is your info from about the availability of weapons and inability to manufacture, and buy, more? How does this complare to Ukraine?
Ukraine has a bloated conscript army too. Russia has far more resources than Ukraine. Far more conscripts available.
Not sure why you are so passionately one sided in this, except for you swallowing pro west/US propaganda, which is mainly put out by the Ukraine MoD.
Jesus Christ on a bike! Do you not see the irony in what you have written there?.
I'm not on ether Russia or Ukraine's side, I've made that clear. But it will come across that I am favouring Russia to someone reading and digesting solely a perspective from Ukraine MoD, as is evidently reguritated by all the newspapers and TV and websites you're being fed by.
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The best assessment I have seen of the possibility of Putin using nuclear weapons:
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/28/opinions/how-close-putin-nuclear-war-de-bretton-gordon/index.html
I don't believe he will either, but I do think chemical weapons are a very real possibility, especially if some 'deniability' can be scraped from a 'nearby' chemical plant.
And for balance, do you think Ukraine may try chem weapons? They are already shelling with the illegal anti personel mines in massive numbers.
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The best assessment I have seen of the possibility of Putin using nuclear weapons:
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/28/opinions/how-close-putin-nuclear-war-de-bretton-gordon/index.html
I don't believe he will either, but I do think chemical weapons are a very real possibility, especially if some 'deniability' can be scraped from a 'nearby' chemical plant.
And for balance, do you think Ukraine may try chem weapons? They are already shelling with the illegal anti personel mines in massive numbers.
Honest question - do you know that Ukraine has chemical weapons? Do you have a source? I have not seen a source which says so, and a quick google search says they do not have any programs
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A logistical problem that has seen them out gunning Ukraine by around a factor of ten.
Where is your info from about the availability of weapons and inability to manufacture, and buy, more? How does this complare to Ukraine?
Ukraine has a bloated conscript army too. Russia has far more resources than Ukraine. Far more conscripts available.
Not sure why you are so passionately one sided in this, except for you swallowing pro west/US propaganda, which is mainly put out by the Ukraine MoD.
Russia conscripts not wanting to fight v Ukraine Conscripts wanting to fight
Can you see the anomaly there?
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Russia appear to be showing that they are only willing to take on unarmed civilians
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A logistical problem that has seen them out gunning Ukraine by around a factor of ten.
Where is your info from about the availability of weapons and inability to manufacture, and buy, more? How does this complare to Ukraine?
Ukraine has a bloated conscript army too. Russia has far more resources than Ukraine. Far more conscripts available.
Not sure why you are so passionately one sided in this, except for you swallowing pro west/US propaganda, which is mainly put out by the Ukraine MoD.
Russia conscripts not wanting to fight v Ukraine Conscripts wanting to fight
Can you see the anomaly there?
Maybe has some truth in it, but marginal. Lots of Ukraine conscripts are sat in deep trenches, pounded to hell, never see the enemy till they surrender or run.
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The best assessment I have seen of the possibility of Putin using nuclear weapons:
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/28/opinions/how-close-putin-nuclear-war-de-bretton-gordon/index.html
I don't believe he will either, but I do think chemical weapons are a very real possibility, especially if some 'deniability' can be scraped from a 'nearby' chemical plant.
And for balance, do you think Ukraine may try chem weapons? They are already shelling with the illegal anti personel mines in massive numbers.
Honest question - do you know that Ukraine has chemical weapons? Do you have a source? I have not seen a source which says so, and a quick google search says they do not have any programs
Lots of reports of US labs in Ukraine being dodgy. So they could have. But deffo been shelling with anti personnel mines. I'm not sure Russia has done this in return despite having them in stock.
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Dutch: the one thing that the article you referenced does not mention is the character and psychology of Vladimir Putin himself - and the role of that in a possible future use of real or improvised nuclear and/or chemical weapons. From what I have read and seen Putin's personality is absolutely key to the liklihood of the use of those weapns. Do you know more than I?
BobG
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Ukraine apply to join Nato, everytime Putin plays a card, Ukraine trump that card
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Dutch: the one thing that the article you referenced does not mention is the character and psychology of Vladimir Putin himself - and the role of that in a possible future use of real or improvised nuclear and/or chemical weapons. From what I have read and seen Putin's personality is absolutely key to the liklihood of the use of those weapns. Do you know more than I?
BobG
Hi Bob, no I don't have any extra knowledge, and further more the assessment that his tactical nuclear weapons would be difficult to deploy was new to me. My personal uninformed feeling is that the accounts some months back about Putin being ill are probably wide of the mark, but he must be frustrated and angry. Hopefully he is still rational, and surely he would try 'deniable' things first.
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That sounds like a convetional attack on a nuclear power station, or maybe a chemical factory, then. And blame it on the Ukrainians.
This might be a link worth seeing although I cannot find either the name or the previous job(s) of the 'ex CIA officer' being interviewed:
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/28/opinions/how-close-putin-nuclear-war-de-bretton-gordon/index.html
Me? I worry like hell about the rats. That story tells us everything we need to know right now about Putin.
Bob
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That sounds like a convetional attack on a nuclear power station, or maybe a chemical factory, then. And blame it on the Ukrainians.
This might be a link worth seeing although I cannot find either the name or the previous job(s) of the 'ex CIA officer' being interviewed:
https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/28/opinions/how-close-putin-nuclear-war-de-bretton-gordon/index.html
Me? I worry like hell about the rats. That story tells us everything we need to know right now about Putin.
Bob
Wrong link I think Bob, that's the one I linked to.
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If you listen to/watch Putin's 'speech' today about why he has illegaly annxed part of another country, he hardly mentions Ukraine but rambles on about centuries of western oppression and the justification of war with the west.
Which tells you what he is thinking and what he is thinking is very concerning. Ukraine is now a pawn for him.
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Bugger! It was one of the video interviews contained in your link. Doesn't matter though. The gentleman being interviewed was adamant that the worse things look for him and for Russia the more Putin will escalate. He thought tactical nukes could be used but he hoped that the US and NATO are telling the Kremlin that the moment the Russian tactical nukes start to move they will be taken out by western long range precision missiles. A nice idea in some ways.... But definitely, definitely not in others!
Bob
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Where's the latter day Narodnaya Volya when you need it...? '(The People's Will'. Planned and carried out the assassination of Czar Alexander II).
Bob
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There's one thing people are forgetting in all this; the nuclear protocol Putin will have to go through before an attack can be launched. He hasn't a button under his desk he can just press to launch an attack.
If he gives the order, it will be to generals and commanders who will know what the outcome is going to be, that NATO will obliterate the whole of Russia in less than 30 seconds. Are they going to obey his orders in that scenario?
The main worry for us is that if it is a strategic strike, rather than a tactical one, we'll be the first in line. At the moment, Putin and his cronies seem to hate us with a vengeance, because of the arms we've supplied Ukraine with, and the stupid sabre rattling of Johnson and Truss.
Our biggest hope now is that the Russian people rise against him.
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They won't go for a strategic strike out of the blue. That would be utterly insane and I'm sure would lead to the mutiny of the Generals.
More dangerous is a slow drift into a use of tactical nukes that can be argued to be militarily sensible in isolation, and so wouldn't provoke a mutiny. Stopping that outcome depends on a crystal clear message from the West. This is why.
Russia has had a policy for years on the use of tactical nukes in conflicts with neighbours called "Escalate to De-Escaalte". It goes like this.
Imagine for some reason that Russia invades a NATO neighbour like Estonia. They go in with everything they've got conventionally, and overwhelm the defences in days. But they've just invaded a NATO state and NATO will be forced to respond. Russia's plan has been that, before NATO can get its shit together, loose off a small nuke against some small Estonian town. That sends a message: "Do you REALLY want to f**k with us America? We're prepared to go all in here - are you going to risk Chicago to come and save Tallinn?"
The plan is predicated on the idea that the West is too yitten to face Russia down. That it's word on the inviolability of NATO would dissolve if put to the test.
We may yet still face Escalate to De-Escalate in Ukraine. So the West, primarily America, has to make it absolutely unmistakable that it will not back down if Putin tries it. You have to make it clear to the Generals that this is simply not a credible policy and that if they try it, they will face a disaster. Then you hope that if Putin truly is insane and orders it, one of them puts a bullet in his head.
Biden's team have been saying the right things. His National Security Adviser said this week "We have communicated directly, privately at very high levels to the Kremlin that any use of nuclear weapons will be met with catastrophic consequences for Russia, that the United States and our allies will respond decisively, and we have been clear and specific about what that will entail."
The line I've seen discussed is that if Russia use a nuke in Ukraine, the US response will be an overwhelming cyber attack on Russia, and the conventional destruction of the Black Sea fleet. Absolutely right not to respond with nukes.
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There's one thing people are forgetting in all this; the nuclear protocol Putin will have to go through before an attack can be launched. He hasn't a button under his desk he can just press to launch an attack.
If he gives the order, it will be to generals and commanders who will know what the outcome is going to be, that NATO will obliterate the whole of Russia in less than 30 seconds. Are they going to obey his orders in that scenario?
The main worry for us is that if it is a strategic strike, rather than a tactical one, we'll be the first in line. At the moment, Putin and his cronies seem to hate us with a vengeance, because of the arms we've supplied Ukraine with, and the stupid sabre rattling of Johnson and Truss.
Our biggest hope now is that the Russian people rise against him.
Steve - talking about Russian nuclear protocols, were you aware of this near miss and that fact that in 1983 a Russian officer at the cutting edge of Russian nuclear defences ignored protocol and did not report radar signals of incoming ICBMs up the chain of command 'guessing' correctly that it was a false alarm, probably the closest we have been to annihilation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Soviet_nuclear_false_alarm_incident
There are always some good and reasonable people around, we just need them to be in the right places at the right time :unsure:
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I wonder if the billions given to Ukraine by the UK Government will help those thousands upon thousands of disabled people and people with learning disabilities who prior to the war were treated like animals in incarceration in antiquated, dilapidated institutions by this supposedly caring country?
A country that, before the invasion were one of the most corrupt in Europe. Good old Ukraine.
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There's one thing people are forgetting in all this; the nuclear protocol Putin will have to go through before an attack can be launched. He hasn't a button under his desk he can just press to launch an attack.
If he gives the order, it will be to generals and commanders who will know what the outcome is going to be, that NATO will obliterate the whole of Russia in less than 30 seconds. Are they going to obey his orders in that scenario?
The main worry for us is that if it is a strategic strike, rather than a tactical one, we'll be the first in line. At the moment, Putin and his cronies seem to hate us with a vengeance, because of the arms we've supplied Ukraine with, and the stupid sabre rattling of Johnson and Truss.
Our biggest hope now is that the Russian people rise against him.
Steve - talking about Russian nuclear protocols, were you aware of this near miss and that fact that in 1983 a Russian officer at the cutting edge of Russian nuclear defences ignored protocol and did not report radar signals of incoming ICBMs up the chain of command 'guessing' correctly that it was a false alarm, probably the closest we have been to annihilation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Soviet_nuclear_false_alarm_incident
There are always some good and reasonable people around, we just need them to be in the right places at the right time :unsure:
There was a documentary on Channel 4 about this incident a few years ago. The world was literally a whisker away from nuclear war. Absolutely terrifying just how close we came to catastrophe.
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There's one thing people are forgetting in all this; the nuclear protocol Putin will have to go through before an attack can be launched. He hasn't a button under his desk he can just press to launch an attack.
If he gives the order, it will be to generals and commanders who will know what the outcome is going to be, that NATO will obliterate the whole of Russia in less than 30 seconds. Are they going to obey his orders in that scenario?
The main worry for us is that if it is a strategic strike, rather than a tactical one, we'll be the first in line. At the moment, Putin and his cronies seem to hate us with a vengeance, because of the arms we've supplied Ukraine with, and the stupid sabre rattling of Johnson and Truss.
Our biggest hope now is that the Russian people rise against him.
Steve - talking about Russian nuclear protocols, were you aware of this near miss and that fact that in 1983 a Russian officer at the cutting edge of Russian nuclear defences ignored protocol and did not report radar signals of incoming ICBMs up the chain of command 'guessing' correctly that it was a false alarm, probably the closest we have been to annihilation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Soviet_nuclear_false_alarm_incident
There are always some good and reasonable people around, we just need them to be in the right places at the right time :unsure:
There was a documentary on Channel 4 about this incident a few years ago. The world was literally a whisker away from nuclear war. Absolutely terrifying just how close we came to catastrophe.
I saw that too HA. It was a very interesting programme.
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BRR: this article by Prof Wade at LSE is interesting. It gives the rationale for several of the points you have been making:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2022/03/30/why-the-us-and-nato-have-long-wanted-russia-to-attack-ukraine/
Different subject: I have a hazy memory of a time in the (early/mid?) 80's when the USSR became convinced that the USA and NATO had decided to attack. Quite unconsciously the west had given all the wrong signals. I think Mrs T. and Ronald Reagan had stoked the rhetorical fires. Without checking at this stupid o'clock I think the Soviet response was to launch a pre-emptive attack. I have Christmas in my head - but it could be fantasy. I can't remember why it never happened but the world came damn close that time too.
BobG
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Bob.
Search "Able Archer".
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That’s the risk you run ‘playing war games’ when all diplomatic relations with your greatest ‘adversary’ have broken down.
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Thank you Billy!
Glad I didn't imagine it all...
Bob
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BRR: this article by Prof Wade at LSE is interesting. It gives the rationale for several of the points you have been making:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2022/03/30/why-the-us-and-nato-have-long-wanted-russia-to-attack-ukraine/
Different subject: I have a hazy memory of a time in the (early/mid?) 80's when the USSR became convinced that the USA and NATO had decided to attack. Quite unconsciously the west had given all the wrong signals. I think Mrs T. and Ronald Reagan had stoked the rhetorical fires. Without checking at this stupid o'clock I think the Soviet response was to launch a pre-emptive attack. I have Christmas in my head - but it could be fantasy. I can't remember why it never happened but the world came damn close that time too.
BobG
Thanks for that link Bob. Pretty much how I see it, though I'd say the US underestimated the downside of this strategy both short and long term.
If Russia remains fighting in Ukraine, this is going to cost the US a lot. Ultimately, Russia has the manpower, and I think the economy to defeat Ukraine. It is also weakening the economies of the West. How far that will go or how significant that is we'll see, but I doubt the US calculations included that.
The China factor is v significant on a few levels, again time will show, and again, I don't think the US has factored in that.
The biggie right now is if NATO allows Ukraine in. As it stands, I don't think the NATO process allows a country at war to join? It would be madness to allow it mainly as that would bring the nuke potential well into the centre of the table.
The US deliberately stirred and keeps on stiring this hornets nest, that is unforgivable. I believe Johnson played a significant part too.
Either way, Ukraine, the pawn here, is screwed whatever happens.
For the record, I'll say again, Russia is far from innocent, its been itching for an opportunity to absorb some or all of Ukraine since it lost it. But that is what the US played on and invited Russia to get involved.
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BRR: this article by Prof Wade at LSE is interesting. It gives the rationale for several of the points you have been making:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2022/03/30/why-the-us-and-nato-have-long-wanted-russia-to-attack-ukraine/
Different subject: I have a hazy memory of a time in the (early/mid?) 80's when the USSR became convinced that the USA and NATO had decided to attack. Quite unconsciously the west had given all the wrong signals. I think Mrs T. and Ronald Reagan had stoked the rhetorical fires. Without checking at this stupid o'clock I think the Soviet response was to launch a pre-emptive attack. I have Christmas in my head - but it could be fantasy. I can't remember why it never happened but the world came damn close that time too.
BobG
Thanks for that link Bob. Pretty much how I see it, though I'd say the US underestimated the downside of this strategy both short and long term.
If Russia remains fighting in Ukraine, this is going to cost the US a lot. Ultimately, Russia has the manpower, and I think the economy to defeat Ukraine. It is also weakening the economies of the West. How far that will go or how significant that is we'll see, but I doubt the US calculations included that.
The China factor is v significant on a few levels, again time will show, and again, I don't think the US has factored in that.
The biggie right now is if NATO allows Ukraine in. As it stands, I don't think the NATO process allows a country at war to join? It would be madness to allow it mainly as that would bring the nuke potential well into the centre of the table.
The US deliberately stirred and keeps on stiring this hornets nest, that is unforgivable. I believe Johnson played a significant part too.
Either way, Ukraine, the pawn here, is screwed whatever happens.
For the record, I'll say again, Russia is far from innocent, its been itching for an opportunity to absorb some or all of Ukraine since it lost it. But that is what the US played on and invited Russia to get involved.
The Ukrainian forces have this afternoon retaken the eastern city of Lyman .
5000 Russians have done one to escape getting trapped in the city before it was totally surrounded .
Going well isn't it for Russia ?
:byebye: :byebye: :byebye:
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Depends on which side you get your propaganda from.
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Reports coming in that the Russian defensive line north of Kherson has collapsed and the Ukrainian forces are forcing them South down the Dnipro river. If this is correct, it looks like the start of a huge encircling move around Kherson. Similar to what they've just done to retake Lyman, but on 5 times the scale.
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I do wonder if Zelensky has made a huge mistake applying for expedited NATO membership right now. NATO can't admit Ukraine when the immediate consequence could easily be all out war with Russia. But refusing entry to Ukraine both hands Putin a huge propaganda victory, and, fractures the cozy relationship Ukraine currently has with the west. I keep thinking I must be missing something because it's hard to believe Zelensky could make a mistake as crass as that. But I'm buggered if I can see what I've missed. Anyone got better eyesight?
BobG
Later. Maybe the calculation is Ukraine Is given expedited membership and Russia then has to face the prospect of war with the entire West? Is it a ploy to force Russia to the negotiating table? And ensure future Ukrainian security?
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In annexing East Ukraine Putin has knowingly set himself on a collision course with the west. But. He is doing it because he has a fundamental belief in the idea of escalation as a deterent. So he always escalates. We have to face him down. Come what may.
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Reports that Ukranian Army have advanced c20k in Kherson towards Dudchany. If they retake that town they are then within striking distance of Chaplynka, a major logistics and supply hub for the southern Russian Army. Loose that and...
https://twitter.com/COUPSURE/status/1576644671530360833
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20km in a day in a battleground as contested as that is almost unheard of. It's Russian milibloggers who are reporting this though, it's not Ukrainian propaganda. If this is real, it's only a matter of time till Kherson falls. So much for incorporation into Mother Russia.
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''BEIRUT (AP) — When the bulk cargo ship Laodicea docked in Lebanon last summer, Ukrainian diplomats said the vessel was carrying grain stolen by Russia and urged Lebanese officials to impound the ship.
Moscow called the allegation “false and baseless,” and Lebanon’s prosecutor general sided with the Kremlin and declared that the 10,000 tons of barley and wheat flour wasn’t stolen and allowed the ship to unload.
But an investigation by The Associated Press and the PBS series “Frontline” has found the Laodicea, owned by Syria, is part of a sophisticated Russian-run smuggling operation that has used falsified manifests and seaborne subterfuge to steal Ukrainian grain worth at least $530 million — cash that has helped feed President Vladimir Putin’s war machine.
AP used satellite imagery and marine radio transponder data to track three dozen ships making more than 50 voyages carrying grain from Russian-occupied areas of Ukraine to ports in Turkey, Syria, Lebanon and other countries. Reporters reviewed shipping manifests, searched social media posts, and interviewed farmers, shippers and corporate officials to uncover the details of the massive smuggling operation''
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-putin-business-lebanon-syria-87c3b6fea3f4c326003123b21aa78099?utm_source=homepage&utm_medium=TopNews&utm_campaign=position_01
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You want reasons why Putin's Russia has to be defeated.
Watch this.
https://mobile.twitter.com/KonstantinKisin/status/1576126809993011205
That was the official celebration of the annexation of the Ukrainian oblasts.
Absolutely f**king radged.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/FukuyamaFrancis/status/1576814074750726144
Might be something.
Might be nothing.
But world-renown historians tend not to shoot from the lip without some substance.
I wonder if the imminent loss of Kherson is the critical piece removed in Putin's Jenga tower?
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As someone says further down that Twitter thread, you lose a war two ways.
Gradually.
Then suddenly.
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So far a lot of Zelensky's actions have appeared to succeed. The silence from the west about his desire to join NATO immediately is telling. He is pushing on top of pushing, and I suspect that is because he has been encouraged in that way by the US, Johnson in particular from the UK, and others. The desire from all those parties is to defeat Russia in Ukraine and strike a severe blow to weakening it. Hence encouraging Zelensky in his "Churchillian" leadership. I think he's over confident, and the appication to NATO shows that so very clearly.
The silence form the west on this is probably due to finding a way to placate him, keep him feeling buffed up, whilst giving him a firm but gentle reality check even if in the guise of *temporarilly* kept out of the club.
The problem with him pushing for this, apart from showing a lack of diplomacy, tact and understanding, is that Russia will now more likely aim for the whole of Ukraine. With increased manpower and armour, one option for Russia is to push more on multiple fronts - exactly what Ukraine has been doing in the same position of recent. This could include a very forceful assult in the west of Ukraine thus cutting off it's supply routes. It is likely it will involve a severe attack on infastructure especially energy supplies for this winter. But as ever we will see.
As for the west facing down Russia, we're talking about politicians and generals who have plush nuke bunkers. The not so unlikely cost of that is not worth the realistic results of grabbing Ukraine.
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Remind me how that "increased Russian armour" think world again.
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Remind me how that "increased Russian armour" think world again.
I'll try and interpret that. There is a lot of armour being transported to Crimea, Belarus and other areas.
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The Ukrainian forces have this afternoon retaken the eastern city of Lyman .
5000 Russians have done one to escape getting trapped in the city before it was totally surrounded .
Going well isn't it for Russia ?
:byebye: :byebye: :byebye:
Somewhere more in the realm of 1 to 4k by most reasoned accounts. 6 to 20k Ukraines depending on chosen reports and how you count them. A general continued retreat till the modilised forces arrive on the field? We'll see.
This war is far from over.
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Remind me how that &quot;increased Russian armour&quot; think world again.
I'll try and interpret that. There is a lot of armour being transported to Crimea, Belarus and other areas.
Your source being?
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I've probably overdosed on Ukraine over the weekend. Lots of vids and news from inside and outside Russia from all sorts of sources.
Could be Western biased propaganda who knows, but it's looking like Russia is on the brink.
Putin is running out of generals to run the show. More generals have deserted their troops on the front line.
More tanks and hardware has been spotted being transported by train. Old rusty Post WW2 tanks and lorries.
1.5m sets of uniforms for soldiers are missing. Tents, beds, first aid kits, cold weather clothing food and water appear to be in short supply. Poor maintenance including lack of parts to keep machines moving, planes flying. Soldiers pleading to be saved and would rather surrender than fight.
Corruption in the military and in Russian life in general is beginning to bite Putin in the arse! The irony.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/FukuyamaFrancis/status/1576814074750726144
Might be something.
Might be nothing.
But world-renown historians tend not to shoot from the lip without some substance.
I wonder if the imminent loss of Kherson is the critical piece removed in Putin's Jenga tower?
Its not the population centres that Ukraine is targetting - its the logistic hubs and airfields. They will just go around Kherson because the know Russia can't defend it without supplies - and if there are no supply depots in the area the further they need to be transported and the more vulnerable they are.
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The Ukrainian forces have this afternoon retaken the eastern city of Lyman .
5000 Russians have done one to escape getting trapped in the city before it was totally surrounded .
Going well isn't it for Russia ?
:byebye: :byebye: :byebye:
Somewhere more in the realm of 1 to 4k by most reasoned accounts. 6 to 20k Ukraines depending on chosen reports and how you count them. A general continued retreat till the modilised forces arrive on the field? We'll see.
This war is far from over.
This is not a retreat. We are just advancing in a different direction.
Major-General O P Smith after reversing the advance of the US 1st Marine Division agains higher orders but escaping from a Chinese ambush at the Battle of Chosin Reservoir 1950.
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More propaganda? Hilarious. Well it would be if we weren't for the unnecessary loss of human life.
"On Monday, Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov attracted ridicule online after he admitted that Russia was still deciding which areas it had "annexed", suggesting that Moscow does not know where its self-declared borders are.
Mr Peskov claimed the entirety of Luhansk and Donetsk regions were part of Russia, but said the Kremlin will "continue consultations with the population regarding the borders of the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions".
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So far a lot of Zelensky's actions have appeared to succeed. The silence from the west about his desire to join NATO immediately is telling. He is pushing on top of pushing, and I suspect that is because he has been encouraged in that way by the US, Johnson in particular from the UK, and others. The desire from all those parties is to defeat Russia in Ukraine and strike a severe blow to weakening it. Hence encouraging Zelensky in his "Churchillian" leadership. I think he's over confident, and the appication to NATO shows that so very clearly.
The silence form the west on this is probably due to finding a way to placate him, keep him feeling buffed up, whilst giving him a firm but gentle reality check even if in the guise of *temporarilly* kept out of the club.
The problem with him pushing for this, apart from showing a lack of diplomacy, tact and understanding, is that Russia will now more likely aim for the whole of Ukraine. With increased manpower and armour, one option for Russia is to push more on multiple fronts - exactly what Ukraine has been doing in the same position of recent. This could include a very forceful assult in the west of Ukraine thus cutting off it's supply routes. It is likely it will involve a severe attack on infastructure especially energy supplies for this winter. But as ever we will see.
As for the west facing down Russia, we're talking about politicians and generals who have plush nuke bunkers. The not so unlikely cost of that is not worth the realistic results of grabbing Ukraine.
Official: NATO secretary-general receives Ukraine’s bid for membership.
Ambassadors of NATO member states will discuss the application in Brussels, Ihor Zhovkva, a deputy head of the President's Office, said.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1577347319611236355
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Battlefield nukes?
I wonder what his newly claimed Russian citizens would think of him if he nuked them and his newly claimed motherland?
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He could nuke a Ukrainian held area. No problem inventing another excuse.
BobG
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So far a lot of Zelensky's actions have appeared to succeed. The silence from the west about his desire to join NATO immediately is telling. He is pushing on top of pushing, and I suspect that is because he has been encouraged in that way by the US, Johnson in particular from the UK, and others. The desire from all those parties is to defeat Russia in Ukraine and strike a severe blow to weakening it. Hence encouraging Zelensky in his &quot;Churchillian&quot; leadership. I think he's over confident, and the appication to NATO shows that so very clearly.
The silence form the west on this is probably due to finding a way to placate him, keep him feeling buffed up, whilst giving him a firm but gentle reality check even if in the guise of *temporarilly* kept out of the club.
The problem with him pushing for this, apart from showing a lack of diplomacy, tact and understanding, is that Russia will now more likely aim for the whole of Ukraine. With increased manpower and armour, one option for Russia is to push more on multiple fronts - exactly what Ukraine has been doing in the same position of recent. This could include a very forceful assult in the west of Ukraine thus cutting off it's supply routes. It is likely it will involve a severe attack on infastructure especially energy supplies for this winter. But as ever we will see.
As for the west facing down Russia, we're talking about politicians and generals who have plush nuke bunkers. The not so unlikely cost of that is not worth the realistic results of grabbing Ukraine.
Official: NATO secretary-general receives Ukraine’s bid for membership.
Ambassadors of NATO member states will discuss the application in Brussels, Ihor Zhovkva, a deputy head of the President's Office, said.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1577347319611236355
"Hey Fritz, Ukraine who are currently at war with Russia what to join us and receive help including a force made up of your guys to fight this country that, according to our spies, are talking about using Nukes on our countries if we go in."
"your British humour! Pass me a hob nob please."
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More propaganda? Hilarious. Well it would be if we weren't for the unnecessary loss of human life.
"On Monday, Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov attracted ridicule online after he admitted that Russia was still deciding which areas it had "annexed", suggesting that Moscow does not know where its self-declared borders are.
Mr Peskov claimed the entirety of Luhansk and Donetsk regions were part of Russia, but said the Kremlin will "continue consultations with the population regarding the borders of the Kherson and Zaporizhzhia regions".
I wonder what the exact translation is? I suspect it included stating that the territory currently in Russian hands at midnight tonight is Russian. The areas of Northern Zaporizhia in Ukraine hands could be under discussion. Likewise the areas of Mykolaiv in Russian hands, and or the areas in Ukraine hands may be up for debate. Seems pretty straight forward. Guess we'll see.
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The Ukrainian forces have this afternoon retaken the eastern city of Lyman .
5000 Russians have done one to escape getting trapped in the city before it was totally surrounded .
Going well isn't it for Russia ?
:byebye: :byebye: :byebye:
Somewhere more in the realm of 1 to 4k by most reasoned accounts. 6 to 20k Ukraines depending on chosen reports and how you count them. A general continued retreat till the modilised forces arrive on the field? We'll see.
This war is far from over.
This is not a retreat. We are just advancing in a different direction.
Major-General O P Smith after reversing the advance of the US 1st Marine Division agains higher orders but escaping from a Chinese ambush at the Battle of Chosin Reservoir 1950.
Many reasons why a retreat happens. How it plays out tactically in the immediate term, and strategically in the whole war.
Scraping the barrel with that eg you use. Maybe you have a quote from Napoleon about retreats?
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Surely the words of General Smith offer a perfectly reasonable commentary on Russia's current pronouncements?
BobG
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ISW: Ukraine continues to make simultaneous advances in Kherson, Kharkiv and Luhansk oblasts.
The Institute for the Study of War reported that Ukraine's interdiction campaign is crippling Russian attempts to transfer additional ammunition, reserves, and mobilized men.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1577521897444892674
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You're seriously passing off the ISW as non biased here? Not at all an organisation with US world domination at its centre?
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The Ukrainian forces have this afternoon retaken the eastern city of Lyman .
5000 Russians have done one to escape getting trapped in the city before it was totally surrounded .
Going well isn't it for Russia ?
:byebye: :byebye: :byebye:
Somewhere more in the realm of 1 to 4k by most reasoned accounts. 6 to 20k Ukraines depending on chosen reports and how you count them. A general continued retreat till the modilised forces arrive on the field? We'll see.
This war is far from over.
This is not a retreat. We are just advancing in a different direction.
Major-General O P Smith after reversing the advance of the US 1st Marine Division agains higher orders but escaping from a Chinese ambush at the Battle of Chosin Reservoir 1950.
Many reasons why a retreat happens. How it plays out tactically in the immediate term, and strategically in the whole war.
Scraping the barrel with that eg you use. Maybe you have a quote from Napoleon about retreats?
How about Russian state TV then:
'When we retreat it means we're going forward'
https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1577551493770747907
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The constant probing down the flanks for a weakness and not facing up to the Russian forces where they are static and strong is giving the Russian forces problems and is opening them up to be attacked from directions behind the main forces exposing their supply lines.
A much more fluid and faster way of warfare than the Russians are prepared for.
If the Ukrainians had air supremacy this war would have been a massive route of the Russian ground forces.
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Forbes are reporting that 700,000 people have left Russia since the announcement of mobilisation. On top of 400,000 who had left since the start of the war, before mobilisation.
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The Russian General saying in effect the retreat of his forces is in fact an offensive manoeuvre reminds me of the time when Margaret Thatcher, on a live BBC news ‘call in’, during the Falklands War was asked about the sinking of the Argentinian warship The Belgrano.
The caller repeatedly said that The Belgrano was actually on a course away from the British Task Force when it was sunk by a British submarine.
Maggie insisted it was still a threat to the Task Force hence ‘the regrettable but necessary’ decision to engage the enemy.
I suppose if The Belgrano had continued on its course then Maggie was right because eventually it would have circumnavigated the globe & would then have been able to ‘sneak up’ on The Task Force from behind!
The Russians are clearly aware of such ‘opportunities’.
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Forbes are reporting that 700,000 people have left Russia since the announcement of mobilisation. On top of 400,000 who had left since the start of the war, before mobilisation.
How many left Ukraine?
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One issue with Russian forces compared to Ukraine at the moment is a massive outnumbering. This has been made worse by those who had their contracts extended by 6 months in Feb who are now choosing to leave the armed forces as they had planned to a while back. In the face of the attacks, Russia has had to reduce its front line length.
Ukraine is giving it all in battle right now as they know there has been a window with this, and the weather. Likely that the assaults, many of which were heavily attacked by Russian bombs and shells, have been very costly to Ukraine especially in their limited armour.
The next month will see little change in Russian forces, but the mud is likely to slow down Ukraine advances. After that, the Russian mobilised forces will begin to enter the battle. That's reportedly 300k plus 70k volunteers.
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The Ukrainian forces have this afternoon retaken the eastern city of Lyman .
5000 Russians have done one to escape getting trapped in the city before it was totally surrounded .
Going well isn't it for Russia ?
:byebye: :byebye: :byebye:
Somewhere more in the realm of 1 to 4k by most reasoned accounts. 6 to 20k Ukraines depending on chosen reports and how you count them. A general continued retreat till the modilised forces arrive on the field? We'll see.
This war is far from over.
This is not a retreat. We are just advancing in a different direction.
Major-General O P Smith after reversing the advance of the US 1st Marine Division agains higher orders but escaping from a Chinese ambush at the Battle of Chosin Reservoir 1950.
Many reasons why a retreat happens. How it plays out tactically in the immediate term, and strategically in the whole war.
Scraping the barrel with that eg you use. Maybe you have a quote from Napoleon about retreats?
How about Russian state TV then:
'When we retreat it means we're going forward'
https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1577551493770747907
Going forward for Russia is destroying Ukraine military. Going forward for Ukraine is taking territory. As you will will have noted from what he said, and the reports from all sides, Ukraine has long been on an offensive in Kherson and has been caught out in the open many many times, as well as pounded in their back lines. Their losses are huge. That is what he is saying. And particularly with the latest advance where the Ukraine got stuck in the mud.
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You still swallowing this nonsense that Russia is systematically destroying the Ukranian forces?
And that the addition of 300,000 barely trained, unequipped and unsupplied amateurs to the front line is going to tip the balance, when the cream of Russia's professional soldiery as been routed?
Or have they been routed? Presumably you are sticking to the line that Kharkiv and Kherson have been two planned, strategic withdrawals?
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Forbes are reporting that 700,000 people have left Russia since the announcement of mobilisation. On top of 400,000 who had left since the start of the war, before mobilisation.
How many left Ukraine?
The millions who left Ukraine were mostly women and children leaving while bombs and missiles were hitting cities and Russia was taking territory. Most men stayed to fight.
The 700K leaving Russia are mostly men of call-up age, and they are not fleeing a country where houses and infrastructure are being damaged by a foreign power. They simply don't want to fight.
Not a useful comparison IMHO.
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Forbes are reporting that 700,000 people have left Russia since the announcement of mobilisation. On top of 400,000 who had left since the start of the war, before mobilisation.
How many left Ukraine?
The millions who left Ukraine were mostly women and children leaving while bombs and missiles were hitting cities and Russia was taking territory. Most men stayed to fight.
The 700K leaving Russia are mostly men of call-up age, and they are not fleeing a country where houses and infrastructure are being damaged by a foreign power. They simply don't want to fight.
Not a useful comparison IMHO.
That's a bt vague. How many men between 18 and 50 left? 100k, 500k, more? You can be sure most of that age group who did leave left to avoid being dumped on a frontline with poor equipment, poor training etc etc, as well as simply not wanting to fight for reasons of self preservation and knowing who you were fighting for, ie not ordinary Ukraines.
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You still swallowing this nonsense that Russia is systematically destroying the Ukranian forces?
And that the addition of 300,000 barely trained, unequipped and unsupplied amateurs to the front line is going to tip the balance, when the cream of Russia's professional soldiery as been routed?
Or have they been routed? Presumably you are sticking to the line that Kharkiv and Kherson have been two planned, strategic withdrawals?
See what I wrote.
What Ukraine v Russian armour and manpower losses do you think happened in Kherson and Kharkiv?
Where do you get the info from that says the mobilised Russians are untrained, unequipped and unsupplied? Does seem like a mishmosh of Zelensky blah blah blah you're regurgitating.
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BRR.
1) Russia's mobilisation plans allow for 2 months from sign up to front line. Remember, their professionals with all their top equipment and years of training shite it and ran from Izyum, Kupyansk and Lyman. What do your Kremlin sources think Yakutsk taxi drivers are going to do more effectively.
2) The key change of momentum in this war was the insertion of HIMARS into the fray. They are systematically destroying Russian stores up to 25 miles behind the front line, and picking off supply routes for the equipment that does survive. Russia has absolutely nothing comparable. Which is why Ukraine is able to supply its attacks, and why the Russian front line has collapsed in numerous places.
But yeah. It's all propaganda.
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BRR.
1) Russia's mobilisation plans allow for 2 months from sign up to front line. Remember, their professionals with all their top equipment and years of training shite it and ran from Izyum, Kupyansk and Lyman. What do your Kremlin sources think Yakutsk taxi drivers are going to do more effectively.
2) The key change of momentum in this war was the insertion of HIMARS into the fray. They are systematically destroying Russian stores up to 25 miles behind the front line, and picking off supply routes for the equipment that does survive. Russia has absolutely nothing comparable. Which is why Ukraine is able to supply its attacks, and why the Russian front line has collapsed in numerous places.
But yeah. It's all propaganda.
You sound confused. The mobilisation is for people already trained.
HIMARS did give Ukraine something where it had nothing. But even before then, Ukraine had around 3 times the troops. But like you say, taxi drivers don't cut it.
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We know the Russian mobilisation is not so focussed. Protesters handed their draft papers. Drafting stations at the borders, picking up those trying to flee. State employees handed draft papers. These blokes aren't trained, many aren't motivated at all.
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mobilisation, the new troops will still be under the command of those leaders that are left after many have been killed, the leaders that remain are obviously not very good and are short of modern equipment and supplies. Stuck between advancing Ukraine forces and a political leadership that doesn't give a shit about their lives.
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That's simply nit picking Bristol. It shows the weakness of the argument you want to make.
BobG
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BRR.
1) Russia's mobilisation plans allow for 2 months from sign up to front line. Remember, their professionals with all their top equipment and years of training shite it and ran from Izyum, Kupyansk and Lyman. What do your Kremlin sources think Yakutsk taxi drivers are going to do more effectively.
2) The key change of momentum in this war was the insertion of HIMARS into the fray. They are systematically destroying Russian stores up to 25 miles behind the front line, and picking off supply routes for the equipment that does survive. Russia has absolutely nothing comparable. Which is why Ukraine is able to supply its attacks, and why the Russian front line has collapsed in numerous places.
But yeah. It's all propaganda.
You sound confused. The mobilisation is for people already trained.
HIMARS did give Ukraine something where it had nothing. But even before then, Ukraine had around 3 times the troops. But like you say, taxi drivers don't cut it.
Trained as what? They are reservists who may or may not have had limited experience in previous conflicts, but who have no experience whatsoever in the intense peer-to-peer mechanised warfare going on in Ukraine. Russia hasn't been involved in a large scale ground war of any intensity since 2002 in Chechnya, so no-one under 40 has much experience of ground war. And even that was a highly asymmetric campaign of tanks and artillery and airpower vs insurgents.
And as I keep saying - Russia's elite professional army has been stopped everywhere, routed in Kharkhiv and forced into a rapid retreat in Kherson. Why, exactly, do you think reservists are going to do better?
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BST you keep saying they are untrained. Now you are saying they are inexperienced in combat. Which is it?
It's well known that the Russians have been massively outnumbered, more so of recent. There can be a discussion about why they managed better in the past than of recent - HIMARS, more trained Ukraine troops, Russians contracts ending, Russia preserving its troops and Ukraine sacrificing its troops, demoralisation, longer term strategy etc. Your second paragraph simply suggests Ukraine troops are better, ignoring much of the above.
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That's simply nit picking Bristol. It shows the weakness of the argument you want to make.
BobG
What are you referring to?
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It is like the Japanese incursions in the second world war, as long as the Ukrainian's keep mobile outflanking the Russians punching through weak spots, and the Russian air force keep performing so poorly, the Russians are in big trouble. The last thing the Ukrainian's need to do is get into big face to face battles.
The Russian equipment is proving to be second class to western supplied equipment, and their big war machine looks old fashioned being modelled on the old big battle face to face, we have more men than you ideas of warfare, while the destructive power of modern western supplied equipment in highly trained personnel's hands to a large extent nullifies this.
Add the fact that they have lost a large percentage of their elite troops and their best equipment, it is going to be difficult for them to pull it back around, especially with the support at home on the ground losing faith in their government's ability to look beyond a nuclear attack to save itself.
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The Western equipment may be better in some ways, but isn't always designed for extended use. Eg the howitzer from US having a metal in their barrel that needs replacing more often.
Also seems you're overegging one side of this, based on what? You have missed the main point that Ukraine currently has around 4 times the manpower on the front lines. Why?
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a huge amount of them are dead
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Not what the why was aimed at. But read back. Many Russians reached the end of their 6 month contract extension in September, plus there were never that many there in the first place.
There's dead and wounded on both sides. Almost certainly more on the Ukraine side even just looking at the tactics.
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Yesterday I heard some Tory junior Minister on Radio 4 telling us all that the Russian war in Ukraine is, and I quote, 'illegal'. "Putin's illegal war in Ukraine" is what he said.
So, two questions. What is a legal war? And in what way is a 'legal war' different to the current war in Ukraine?
BobG
PS. Later. I've just giggled to myself when I remembered the US invasion of Grenada. For those who might not know, our King is Grenada's head of state. His Mum was when the Yanks walked all over the place without a by your leave from us, the UN or anybody else. .
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Important points. Added to that, there's the issue of economic invasion. And then just plain economic theft within a country by a dominant group. Not surprisingly, they're all "legal".
In no way is the above condoning gross brute force and bloodshed, although the above all have their roots in exactly that. They also still do cause actual death and illness.
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Just for fun I've been googling.... How many times has the US seriously interfered in another country since 1945? The answer, staggeringly, is that 80% of all global conflicts since 1945 have involved the USA. For bedtime reading here's a partial (!) list:
1947–1949: Intervening in the Greek civil war
1947–1970: Meddling in Italy's elections and supporting anti-communism activities
1945-1949: Intervening in China’s civil war and establishing Taiwan
1948: Supporting anti-government forces in Costa Rica's civil war
1949–1953: Supporting anti-communism activities in Albania
1949: Staging a coup in Syria (it was CIA’s first coup)
1950–1953: Korean War
1952: Intervening in the Egyptian Revolution of 1952
1953: Orchestrated a coup in Iran and overthrew the democratically elected leader
1954: Invaded Guatemala and installed a puppet
1956–1957: Plotting a coup in Syria
1957–1959: Supporting a coup in Indonesia
1958: Creating a crisis in Lebanon
1960–1961: Supporting a coup in the Congo
1960: Meddling in Laos’ reforms
1961: Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba
1961–1975: Supporting civil war and OPIUM TRADE in Laos (look up “Air America”)
1961–1964: Supporting anti-government activities in Brazil
1963: Supporting civil strife in Iraq
1963: Supporting riots in Ecuador
1963–1975: Vietnam War
1964: Intervening in Congo’s rebellion (and bombing)
1965–1966: Intervening in Dominica's civil war
1965–1967: Installing, arming and aiding fascist Indonesian military government’s massacre of communists (2-3 million killed)
1966: Engineering an insurgency in Ghana
1966–1969: Creating conflicts in the Demilitarized Zone (DMZ), which is a region on the Korean peninsula that demarcates North Korea from South Korea
1966–1967: Supporting an insurgency in Bolivia
1967: Intervening in the change of the Greek government
1967–1975: Intervening in Cambodia's civil war
1970: Meddling in Oman's domestic affairs
1970–1973: Aided a military coup in Chile (overthrew democratically elected and popular progressive leader, Salvador Allende)
1970–1973: Orchestrating a coup in Cambodia
1971: Supporting a coup in Bolivia
1972–1975: Assisting anti-government forces in Iraq
1976: Supporting a coup in Argentina
1976–1992: Intervening in Angola's domestic affairs
1977–1988: Supporting a coup in Pakistan
1979–1993: Supporting anti-government forces in Cambodia
1979–1989: Arming, funding, training the Mujahedin in Afghanistan. This led to Al Qaeda and the largest network of Islamic terrorist groups in the world.
1979–1989: Used Saddam Hussein to wage a proxy war against Iraq. Funded and armed Saddam for ten years.
1980–1989: Financed anti-government Solidarity trade union in Poland
1980–1992: Meddling in El Salvador's civil war
1981: Attacking Libya in Gulf of Sidra
1981–1982: Engineering regime change in Chad
1982–1984: Participating in a multilateral intervention in Lebanon
1982–1989: Supporting anti-government forces in Nicaragua (the U.S. armed fascists, death squads, drug lords etc.)
1983: Invading Grenada
1986: Invading Gulf of Sidra, Libya
1986: Bombing Libya
1988: Shooting down an Iranian airliner
1988: Sending troops to Honduras
1989: Attacking Libya in Tobruk
1989: Intervening in the Philippines' domestic affairs
1989–1990: Invading Panama
1990–1991: Persian Gulf War, Part 1
1991: Intervening in Haiti's elections
1991–2003: Leading the enforcement action to establish a no-fly zone in Iraq
1992–1995: Intervening in Somalia's civil war for the first time
1992–1995: Intervening in the Bosnian War
1994–1995: Sending troops to Haiti
1996: Supporting a coup in Iraq
1997: Sending troops to Albania
1997: Sending troops to Sierra Leone
1998–1999: Waging the Kosovo War
1998: Launching cruise missile attacks on Sudan and Afghanistan
1998–1999: Sending troops to Kenya and Tanzania
2001–present: War on Afghanistan
2002: Sending troops to Côte d'Ivoire
2003: Orchestrating color revolution in Georgia and installing a pro-US government
2003–present: Iraq War, Part 2
2004–now: Inciting wars between Pakistan and Afghanistan in their contiguous areas
2004: Orchestrating color revolution in Ukraine and installing a pro-US government
2006–2007: Supporting Fatah, a Palestinian political and military organization, in overthrowing the elected government of Hamas
2007–present: Intervening in Somalia's civil war for the second time
2009: Supporting a coup in Honduras
2011: Supporting anti-government forces in Libya
2011–present: Arming, funding, training jihadists, Al Qaeda, and “moderate rebels” in Syria. Occasionally bombing Syria. And occupying the oil-rich parts of Syria.
2011–2017: Carrying out military operations in Uganda
2014: Orchestrating a color revolution in Ukraine and overthrowing a democratically elected leader.
2014–present: Leading the intervention actions in Iraq
2015–now: Arming, directing Saudi Arabia's participation in Yemen's civil war
2017-2019: Attempting regime change in Venezuela
2012-2020: Funding, orchestrating riots in Hong Kong.
2019: Supporting a military coup in Bolivia
1990s-now: Funding Uyghur separatists and trying to break the Xinjiang province off China.
What's worse though is that if you looked up a similar list of British actions during any period you like in the19th century, it would be as bad if not worse.
BobG
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BRR so the day the Russians contract is up he just packs his bags on the front line and says see ya?
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Good old Biden, as f*cking useless as ever. Instead of saying what HE's going to do, as President of the USA, he's telling US, who can do nothing about it, that we're on the brink of Armeggedon.
In doing so, he's just sent a message to Putin, the bully, that the whole of the West is terrified of him.
Well done, Joe.
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Good old Biden, as f*cking useless as ever. Instead of saying what HE's going to do, as President of the USA, he's telling US, who can do nothing about it, that we're on the brink of Armeggedon.
In doing so, he's just sent a message to Putin, the bully, that the whole of the West is terrified of him.
Well done, Joe.
Not quite sure - if you attempt to launch a nuclear missile we will obliterate your country - is sending a message to Putin that you are frightened. Or do you have a different meaning of Armageddon (the end of days) to me?
No NATO country is going to launch a first strike. There's a reason it's called a nuclear deterrent.
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Russian voice from the frontline , pretty disturbing stuff .
https://youtu.be/S-zNgNxAnzA
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Thank you Tyke. Horrible. But then, those who start wars never worry about things like that do they? (And I am not pointing fingers at anybody at all with that comment. I am speaking in a very general sense)
BobG
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Good old Biden, as f*cking useless as ever. Instead of saying what HE's going to do, as President of the USA, he's telling US, who can do nothing about it, that we're on the brink of Armeggedon.
In doing so, he's just sent a message to Putin, the bully, that the whole of the West is terrified of him.
Well done, Joe.
Not quite sure - if you attempt to launch a nuclear missile we will obliterate your country - is sending a message to Putin that you are frightened. Or do you have a different meaning of Armageddon (the end of days) to me?
No NATO country is going to launch a first strike. There's a reason it's called a nuclear deterrent.
It seems that Macron, and people commenting on the press previews, don't agree with you, Wilts. They think his comments were ill thought out and unwise.
I've asked before, if Putin is defeated and humiliated, what is the endgame in all that? Because at the moment, all I'm hearing is soundbites.
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Armageddon, however you cut it, is fairly unpleasant for everybody.
BobG
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Very sad listening to that from the frontline, got to feel not just for the Ukrainians but also for these Russians being sent there to almost certain death, I’m sure they don’t know what awaits them and they don’t have much of a choice in going there.
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Good old Biden, as f*cking useless as ever. Instead of saying what HE's going to do, as President of the USA, he's telling US, who can do nothing about it, that we're on the brink of Armeggedon.
In doing so, he's just sent a message to Putin, the bully, that the whole of the West is terrified of him.
Well done, Joe.
Not quite sure - if you attempt to launch a nuclear missile we will obliterate your country - is sending a message to Putin that you are frightened. Or do you have a different meaning of Armageddon (the end of days) to me?
No NATO country is going to launch a first strike. There's a reason it's called a nuclear deterrent.
It seems that Macron, and people commenting on the press previews, don't agree with you, Wilts. They think his comments were ill thought out and unwise.
I've asked before, if Putin is defeated and humiliated, what is the endgame in all that? Because at the moment, all I'm hearing is soundbites.
Steve, you have been telling us for years Macron's views are wrong - now all of a sudden they are correct? Hmmm. If I remember correctly Macron went to Russia to have discussions with Putin just before the invasion and told us there wasn't going to be an invasion?
Here's your endgame:
Unless one side is obliterated - all wars end in a negotiated settlement.
Some world leaders want a settlement more than others. They want NATO to stop sending aid to Ukraine and have an agreement with Putin at any price. I think Macron spoke to him only last week.
Ukraine can't 'win'. All they can do is push Russia out of their territory - Russia will still be there - with NATO help they are not going to invade it and depose Putin and NATO are not going to be directly involved - ask Macron. Only Putin can end it.
There are enough nuclear weapons in the world to destroy it twice over whoever 'starts' it. No-one survies a nuclear winter. If a nuclear weapon goes over a NATO border there will be Armageddon. If a nuclear weapon is used on Ukraine territory there will be pressure for NATO to act.
Russian leaders are not overthrown by outside forces - they are overthrown by their own people.
You either appese Putin - or you help Ukraine to oppose Putin. Biden is doing the later.
What do you think he should be doing and what do you think the endgame is?
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Sanna Marin: kiss .......... https://twitter.com/RikhardHusu/status/1578308226709590017?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
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Thank you Tyke. Horrible. But then, those who start wars never worry about things like that do they? (And I am not pointing fingers at anybody at all with that comment. I am speaking in a very general sense)
BobG
Those were my thoughts too Bob , whilst I know the Russians have committed despicable war crimes in Ukraine it won't apply to every one of them and as you say the vast majority are totally bewildered why they are in Ukraine .
Young Russian soldiers still have parents , wives , kids and are simply fodder for a tyrant who doesn't care about them .
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The bridge from Crimea to Russia has been destroyed, no getting supplies through Crimea to the Russians now, its clear Ukraine are going for Crimea
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It's not destroyed. Local damage. Could be operational again in a week to 10 days I'd have thought.
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The bridge from Crimea to Russia has been destroyed, no getting supplies through Crimea to the Russians now, its clear Ukraine are going for Crimea
Happy birthday Mr Putin!
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Armageddon, however you cut it, is fairly unpleasant for everybody.
BobG
I bought some armageddon cheese yesterday.
It said on the packet ‘best before end…’
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Good old Biden, as f*cking useless as ever. Instead of saying what HE's going to do, as President of the USA, he's telling US, who can do nothing about it, that we're on the brink of Armeggedon.
In doing so, he's just sent a message to Putin, the bully, that the whole of the West is terrified of him.
Well done, Joe.
Not quite sure - if you attempt to launch a nuclear missile we will obliterate your country - is sending a message to Putin that you are frightened. Or do you have a different meaning of Armageddon (the end of days) to me?
No NATO country is going to launch a first strike. There's a reason it's called a nuclear deterrent.
You're falling for that line? Oh, dear.
The deal is if the US/NATO ups its support for Ukraine to the point of.... say, invading old Russia, or does more than the gas line attack, then the button is hit with an almighty feck you! We know the US is a bully, greedy as, pushes and pushes with the delusion of being World boss. This threat is saying, watch your step.
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Very sad listening to that from the frontline, got to feel not just for the Ukrainians but also for these Russians being sent there to almost certain death, I’m sure they don’t know what awaits them and they don’t have much of a choice in going there.
Not being sent to almost certain death. Sure its v dangerous. I'd be more concerned being a Ukraine sent to the front.
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Reports coming in of a wave of arrests of military top brass in Moscow. Elite assault troops blocking access to the centre.
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Very sad listening to that from the frontline, got to feel not just for the Ukrainians but also for these Russians being sent there to almost certain death, I’m sure they don’t know what awaits them and they don’t have much of a choice in going there.
Not being sent to almost certain death. Sure its v dangerous. I'd be more concerned being a Ukraine sent to the front.
Let’s face it no one would have had to be sent to certain death, Ukrainian or Russian, had Russia not illegally invaded another sovereign country. So cannot feel to sorry for the Russians but do have every sympathy for the Ukrainian defending their country.
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Good old Biden, as f*cking useless as ever. Instead of saying what HE's going to do, as President of the USA, he's telling US, who can do nothing about it, that we're on the brink of Armeggedon.
In doing so, he's just sent a message to Putin, the bully, that the whole of the West is terrified of him.
Well done, Joe.
Not quite sure - if you attempt to launch a nuclear missile we will obliterate your country - is sending a message to Putin that you are frightened. Or do you have a different meaning of Armageddon (the end of days) to me?
No NATO country is going to launch a first strike. There's a reason it's called a nuclear deterrent.
You're falling for that line? Oh, dear.
The deal is if the US/NATO ups its support for Ukraine to the point of.... say, invading old Russia, or does more than the gas line attack, then the button is hit with an almighty feck you! We know the US is a bully, greedy as, pushes and pushes with the delusion of being World boss. This threat is saying, watch your step.
Unlike for example, Putin and Russia?
Ukraine is not going to invade Russia and NATO is not going to launch a first strike. Only Russia can stop the war and only Russians can overthrow Putin. It's not difficult to undersstand however much you try and b******t.
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Thank you Tyke. Horrible. But then, those who start wars never worry about things like that do they? (And I am not pointing fingers at anybody at all with that comment. I am speaking in a very general sense)
BobG
Those were my thoughts too Bob , whilst I know the Russians have committed despicable war crimes in Ukraine it won't apply to every one of them and as you say the vast majority are totally bewildered why they are in Ukraine .
Young Russian soldiers still have parents , wives , kids and are simply fodder for a tyrant who doesn't care about them .
Exactly this.
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Very sad listening to that from the frontline, got to feel not just for the Ukrainians but also for these Russians being sent there to almost certain death, I’m sure they don’t know what awaits them and they don’t have much of a choice in going there.
Not being sent to almost certain death. Sure its v dangerous. I'd be more concerned being a Ukraine sent to the front.
Really , that's not what this Russian soldier says .
https://youtu.be/AYHWH5IG-Zs
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Good old Biden, as f*cking useless as ever. Instead of saying what HE's going to do, as President of the USA, he's telling US, who can do nothing about it, that we're on the brink of Armeggedon.
In doing so, he's just sent a message to Putin, the bully, that the whole of the West is terrified of him.
Well done, Joe.
Not quite sure - if you attempt to launch a nuclear missile we will obliterate your country - is sending a message to Putin that you are frightened. Or do you have a different meaning of Armageddon (the end of days) to me?
No NATO country is going to launch a first strike. There's a reason it's called a nuclear deterrent.
You're falling for that line? Oh, dear.
The deal is if the US/NATO ups its support for Ukraine to the point of.... say, invading old Russia, or does more than the gas line attack, then the button is hit with an almighty feck you! We know the US is a bully, greedy as, pushes and pushes with the delusion of being World boss. This threat is saying, watch your step.
Or does more than the gas line attack?
I'm not aware of any evidence as to who blew up the gas line, but it does seem really strange to suggest Te West, who depend on it in normal times, did it equally strange to say the Russians when all they would need to do is turn the supply off
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Death by numbers
''How Ukrainians, targeting by drone, attacked Russian artillery in Kherson''
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/10/08/ukraine-russia-drones-artillery/
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Once again Putin responds to a focussed attack on military supply transport infrastructure by chucking missiles at apartment blocks.
Kitson.
https://mobile.twitter.com/maria_avdv/status/1578988231366184960
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A Ukranian army Press officer has reported that Belarus has accused Ukraine of making ready to invade Belarus territory.
He is certain this means Belarussian troops will invade Ukraine in the next 3 to 7 days in 'self defence'
He's also certain the majority of them will die too.
If there's any shred of truth in this then it will mark the start of the end for Lukashenko too.
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Putin is regarding the explosion on the Crimean bridge as an act of terrorism committed by Ukrainians on Russian territory, and has called an emergency meeting to decide how to respond to it.
In the meantime, Biden is ordering $260 million's worth of drugs that treat blood cell damage caused by nuclear radiation.
It's coming, and there doesn't seem to be the will on any side to stop it.
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Or does more than the gas line attack?
I'm not aware of any evidence as to who blew up the gas line, but it does seem really strange to suggest Te West, who depend on it in normal times, did it equally strange to say the Russians when all they would need to do is turn the supply off
The main argument of a benefit to Russia for the destruction is that is absolves them from any comeback for not supplying the gas as per the contracts. Possible, but unlikely to be a consideration they have. Much better for them to have the gas supply as a bargaining chip.
As the US is stepping up its gas shipments to Europe it gives it a motive, plus taking out the Russian's bargaining chip. Would the UK be doing this for the US? Absolutely, as could any NATO country. Norway could well be involved, it certainly benefits from a halt to Russian gas.
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Very sad listening to that from the frontline, got to feel not just for the Ukrainians but also for these Russians being sent there to almost certain death, I’m sure they don’t know what awaits them and they don’t have much of a choice in going there.
Not being sent to almost certain death. Sure its v dangerous. I'd be more concerned being a Ukraine sent to the front.
Really , that's not what this Russian soldier says .
https://youtu.be/AYHWH5IG-Zs
SSU info, must be true.
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Or does more than the gas line attack?
I'm not aware of any evidence as to who blew up the gas line, but it does seem really strange to suggest Te West, who depend on it in normal times, did it equally strange to say the Russians when all they would need to do is turn the supply off
The main argument of a benefit to Russia for the destruction is that is absolves them from any comeback for not supplying the gas as per the contracts. Possible, but unlikely to be a consideration they have. Much better for them to have the gas supply as a bargaining chip.
As the US is stepping up its gas shipments to Europe it gives it a motive, plus taking out the Russian's bargaining chip. Would the UK be doing this for the US? Absolutely, as could any NATO country. Norway could well be involved, it certainly benefits from a halt to Russian gas.
The explosions coincided with the opening of the Baltic Pipeline by-passing Russian supplies by taking gas from Norway to Poland.
It was a message from Putin saying that he can take out any undersea pipeline at any time. He wants to control energy supplies to Europe - because that's his bargaining chip to stopping Europe supporting Ukraine.
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So now we know Putin's retaliation. Firing cruise missiles at apartment blocks and children's playgrounds.
And he says blowing up a bridge is terrorism!!
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Kyiv has been pummelled with missiles in response to the bridge attack. Including a children’s park ffs!
Such an evil bas**rd.
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An absolute waste of life. That's not war it's flat out murder.
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Moscow must be fair game for Ukraine to attack now, Putin is a total bas**rd, this shows desperation on his part
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Hasn't took the new man in charge long to change how the Russian forces retaliate much as he did in Syria indiscriminate bombing of civilians This will now become an ongoing feature with this chap in charge
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They're not only war crimes it's strategically dumb, using resources to attack civilian targets reduces what is available to take on the Ukrainian armed forces, a battle russia is losing atm.
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Belarus making noises about invading Ukraine now, good luck with that Lukashenko, you only have 60k troops, Putin is playing you like the cowardly bully he is
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BBC
''The building housing the German consulate in Kyiv was hit by a Russian missile strike, Reuters news agency quotes Germany's foreign ministry as saying''
Technically German soil, I doubt/hope that this would not be a trigger for NATO to get involved.
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Or does more than the gas line attack?
I'm not aware of any evidence as to who blew up the gas line, but it does seem really strange to suggest Te West, who depend on it in normal times, did it equally strange to say the Russians when all they would need to do is turn the supply off
The main argument of a benefit to Russia for the destruction is that is absolves them from any comeback for not supplying the gas as per the contracts. Possible, but unlikely to be a consideration they have. Much better for them to have the gas supply as a bargaining chip.
As the US is stepping up its gas shipments to Europe it gives it a motive, plus taking out the Russian's bargaining chip. Would the UK be doing this for the US? Absolutely, as could any NATO country. Norway could well be involved, it certainly benefits from a halt to Russian gas.
The explosions coincided with the opening of the Baltic Pipeline by-passing Russian supplies by taking gas from Norway to Poland.
It was a message from Putin saying that he can take out any undersea pipeline at any time. He wants to control energy supplies to Europe - because that's his bargaining chip to stopping Europe supporting Ukraine.
The message Russia would send would be hitting the Norwegian pipeline not the Russian one, don't you think?
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BBC
''The building housing the German consulate in Kyiv was hit by a Russian missile strike, Reuters news agency quotes Germany's foreign ministry as saying''
Technically German soil, I doubt/hope that this would not be a trigger for NATO to get involved.
It isn't.
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Belarus making noises about invading Ukraine now, good luck with that Lukashenko, you only have 60k troops, Putin is playing you like the cowardly bully he is
It's most likely a ploy to tie up Ukraine troops in the West. On the other hand, there is a point where Russia will invade in the West to slow the arms being supplied to Ukraine.
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Belarus making noises about invading Ukraine now, good luck with that Lukashenko, you only have 60k troops, Putin is playing you like the cowardly bully he is
It's most likely a ploy to tie up Ukraine troops in the West. On the other hand, there is a point where Russia will invade in the West to slow the arms being supplied to Ukraine.
I’m not sure the people of Belarus will take kindly to being used as Putins cannon fodder
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Belarus making noises about invading Ukraine now, good luck with that Lukashenko, you only have 60k troops, Putin is playing you like the cowardly bully he is
It's most likely a ploy to tie up Ukraine troops in the West. On the other hand, there is a point where Russia will invade in the West to slow the arms being supplied to Ukraine.
I’m not sure the people of Belarus will take kindly to being used as Putins cannon fodder
But they're not being used that way. Nice little stand off, saving some of the Ukraine taxi drivers from frontline danger and discomfort in the east and south.
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Belarus making noises about invading Ukraine now, good luck with that Lukashenko, you only have 60k troops, Putin is playing you like the cowardly bully he is
It's most likely a ploy to tie up Ukraine troops in the West. On the other hand, there is a point where Russia will invade in the West to slow the arms being supplied to Ukraine.
A Russian invasion 'in the west' is a declaration of war on NATO. If Putin can't defeat Ukraine after 6 months how do you reckon he will get on with NATO?
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I know I might be talking a bit daft here, however I've a mate who used to be in the SAS, although I'm not supposed to know, and he's thinking the same.
Surely the Yanks must have something up their sleeves. Their intelligence on the ground all over the world is phenomenal, that's how they were able to capture Saddam Hussein, take his 2 sons out, and take out Bin Laden.
Surely if they were certain he was going to launch nuclear missiles, he could somehow be dealt with.
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Belarus making noises about invading Ukraine now, good luck with that Lukashenko, you only have 60k troops, Putin is playing you like the cowardly bully he is
It's most likely a ploy to tie up Ukraine troops in the West. On the other hand, there is a point where Russia will invade in the West to slow the arms being supplied to Ukraine.
A Russian invasion 'in the west' is a declaration of war on NATO. If Putin can't defeat Ukraine after 6 months how do you reckon he will get on with NATO?
The west of Ukraine is not anything to do with NATO.
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Belarus making noises about invading Ukraine now, good luck with that Lukashenko, you only have 60k troops, Putin is playing you like the cowardly bully he is
It's most likely a ploy to tie up Ukraine troops in the West. On the other hand, there is a point where Russia will invade in the West to slow the arms being supplied to Ukraine.
A Russian invasion 'in the west' is a declaration of war on NATO. If Putin can't defeat Ukraine after 6 months how do you reckon he will get on with NATO?
The west of Ukraine is not anything to do with NATO.
Then why did you mention 'the west'. Belarus is north/north-east of Ukraine? It's where the Russian attack on Kyiv came from.
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I know I might be talking a bit daft here, however I've a mate who used to be in the SAS, although I'm not supposed to know, and he's thinking the same.
Surely the Yanks must have something up their sleeves. Their intelligence on the ground all over the world is phenomenal, that's how they were able to capture Saddam Hussein, take his 2 sons out, and take out Bin Laden.
Surely if they were certain he was going to launch nuclear missiles, he could somehow be dealt with.
Steve. We have been told for 60 years that the reason this country has nuclear weapons is because they are a deterent. Either they are - or they aren't and we have been lied to for 60 years. And if they can lie to us about something as important as that - what else can they lie about?
Ask your mate in the SAS what he thinks. (He should be wearing the insignia of his enroled unit but with a flash and brown beret - thats how you spot SAS - dont ask me how I know...)
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I know I might be talking a bit daft here, however I've a mate who used to be in the SAS, although I'm not supposed to know, and he's thinking the same.
Surely the Yanks must have something up their sleeves. Their intelligence on the ground all over the world is phenomenal, that's how they were able to capture Saddam Hussein, take his 2 sons out, and take out Bin Laden.
Surely if they were certain he was going to launch nuclear missiles, he could somehow be dealt with.
Never underestimate the power of human intelligence.
Saddam Husseins ultimate demise would have been down to one or two very very brave people, who were very close to him. And are probably now languishing in their very own detached villa somewhere far far away from Iraq, on a lifetime pension from the US . Along with their families.
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Belarus making noises about invading Ukraine now, good luck with that Lukashenko, you only have 60k troops, Putin is playing you like the cowardly bully he is
It's most likely a ploy to tie up Ukraine troops in the West. On the other hand, there is a point where Russia will invade in the West to slow the arms being supplied to Ukraine.
A Russian invasion 'in the west' is a declaration of war on NATO. If Putin can't defeat Ukraine after 6 months how do you reckon he will get on with NATO?
The west of Ukraine is not anything to do with NATO.
Then why did you mention 'the west'. Belarus is north/north-east of Ukraine? It's where the Russian attack on Kyiv came from.
Did you notice the topic here is titled "Ukraine"? Sure I could have said west of Ukraine to save people who are likely to fly off with the hysterical angles, but...
Belarus is where some of the Russian attack came from, not all. There are Russians stationed in Belarus now, and nearby there. It's a way of holding Ukraine troops in the west.
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One thing is crystal clear after today. Putin is prepared to take offensive action which has precisely zero military effectiveness. In fact, no, not zero. It has negative military effect because all it does is strengthen resolve against Russia, inside and outside Ukraine.
And he does this purely from a bestial revenge reflex. To massage his own crumbling, worthless ego.
The man is truly scum. Anyone who blathers their way to justifying his actions has made their choice now.
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One thing is crystal clear after today. Putin is prepared to take offensive action which has precisely zero military effectiveness. In fact, no, not zero. It has negative military effect because all it does is strengthen resolve against Russia, inside and outside Ukraine.
And he does this purely from a bestial revenge reflex. To massage his own crumbling, worthless ego.
The man is truly scum. Anyone who blathers their way to justifying his actions has made their choice now.
Agreed. And the pathetic spin from the Kremlin is Ukrainian anti aircraft devices have caused their missiles to be deflected to civilian targets
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Belarus making noises about invading Ukraine now, good luck with that Lukashenko, you only have 60k troops, Putin is playing you like the cowardly bully he is
It's most likely a ploy to tie up Ukraine troops in the West. On the other hand, there is a point where Russia will invade in the West to slow the arms being supplied to Ukraine.
A Russian invasion 'in the west' is a declaration of war on NATO. If Putin can't defeat Ukraine after 6 months how do you reckon he will get on with NATO?
The west of Ukraine is not anything to do with NATO.
Then why did you mention 'the west'. Belarus is north/north-east of Ukraine? It's where the Russian attack on Kyiv came from.
Did you notice the topic here is titled "Ukraine"? Sure I could have said west of Ukraine to save people who are likely to fly off with the hysterical angles, but...
Belarus is where some of the Russian attack came from, not all. There are Russians stationed in Belarus now, and nearby there. It's a way of holding Ukraine troops in the west.
And if you haven't noticed both people on the forum and politicians 'in the west' have wondered about the war escalating 'to the west' outside of Ukraine. But if you want to be sarcastic and condescening about it that's up to you. It reinforces your point of view perfectly.
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One thing is crystal clear after today. Putin is prepared to take offensive action which has precisely zero military effectiveness. In fact, no, not zero. It has negative military effect because all it does is strengthen resolve against Russia, inside and outside Ukraine.
And he does this purely from a bestial revenge reflex. To massage his own crumbling, worthless ego.
The man is truly scum. Anyone who blathers their way to justifying his actions has made their choice now.
Agreed. And the pathetic spin from the Kremlin is Ukrainian anti aircraft devices have caused their missiles to be deflected to civilian targets
I have made this point somewhere before, but if Country A launches a missile at a target in Country B, and Country B's defences deflect it somewhere else, the damage is still entirely the responsibility of Country A who instigated the incident.
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Wilts, the war was never going to go beyond Ukraine, though of course western propaganda is fixed on hyping that side of things up as prep to justify anything it chooses to do including spending biilions on the war and the poverty to it's populations that is coming from that.
The only possible threat is to the 3 baltic states, but then the NATO factor wuold be triggered. Russia may well be likely to win a war with Ukraine/proxy NATO countries, but woud be at best a few decades before it could then consider taking things further. It's not going to happen, it is propaganda and hysteria. I wasn't being sarcastic.
Also if you'd had properly read what I said you wouldn't have reacted as you did - I said Belarus deployment, and Belarus sabre rattling was to tie up troops in the West - I wasn't referring to Spain. There's sarcasm for ya!
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One thing is crystal clear after today. Putin is prepared to take offensive action which has precisely zero military effectiveness. In fact, no, not zero. It has negative military effect because all it does is strengthen resolve against Russia, inside and outside Ukraine.
And he does this purely from a bestial revenge reflex. To massage his own crumbling, worthless ego.
The man is truly scum. Anyone who blathers their way to justifying his actions has made their choice now.
Can you list the targets and hits that Russia had today?
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Do we start with the park or the apartment buildings?
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Presumably terrorist actions of course....
BobG
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Military specific targets:
Just been told one of the victims of today’s bombings here in Kyiv was a young female paediatric haematologist, hit as she drove home from her hospital night shift. She has a 5 year old child. She cared for children with cancer. And Putin just killed her.
https://twitter.com/doctor_oxford/status/1579515347899932673
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Something I noticed on videos right at the start of the war.
https://mobile.twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1579164370445094915
Watch the lack of movement from Putin's right arm.
He's not a well man.
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Something I noticed on videos right at the start of the war.
https://mobile.twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1579164370445094915
Watch the lack of movement from Putin's right arm.
He's not a well man.
Apparently he's only got one ball.
Seriously disturbing that you are still banging on in the same vein. This war is disgusting, you do have to step out of the propaganda pool you're in to see how there can be a solution where ordinary people stop getting slaughtered. Kinda first base for a socialist. Go back and see why it is happening, and then with that understanding know how it can be solved.
I spelt out my solution a long way back. You have persisted in saying nothing bar being enthiusiastic about demonising one side and justifying the slaughter. I say you, it's so many here doing similar, but I did think you had the nouse to see beyond big balls futility.
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Do we start with the park or the apartment buildings?
Go on then. And what else?
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Do we start with the park or the apartment buildings?
Go on then. And what else?
Three schools
One kindergarten
Two social hubs
Six cultural institutions
Five medical facilities
Two administrative buildings
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You missed the road junction and the pavement Filo. Clearly military assets.
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Something I noticed on videos right at the start of the war.
https://mobile.twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1579164370445094915
Watch the lack of movement from Putin's right arm.
He's not a well man.
Apparently he's only got one ball.
Seriously disturbing that you are still banging on in the same vein. This war is disgusting, you do have to step out of the propaganda pool you're in to see how there can be a solution where ordinary people stop getting slaughtered. Kinda first base for a socialist. Go back and see why it is happening, and then with that understanding know how it can be solved.
I spelt out my solution a long way back. You have persisted in saying nothing bar being enthiusiastic about demonising one side and justifying the slaughter. I say you, it's so many here doing similar, but I did think you had the nouse to see beyond big balls futility.
What a bizarre response to the specifics of my post.
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A little comforting perhaps. If believed.
“Lavrov also said that those who continually speculate about a nuclear war allegedly being caused by Moscow should realise their responsibility for what they are saying, and that Putin has "repeatedly said that in our nuclear doctrine we regard this as an exclusively retaliatory measure".
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Yeah but that's not true.
The whole Escalate to De-Escalate strategy has them pre-emptively using a nuke to scare off the opponents.
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Something I noticed on videos right at the start of the war.
https://mobile.twitter.com/maxseddon/status/1579164370445094915
Watch the lack of movement from Putin's right arm.
He's not a well man.
Apparently he's only got one ball.
Seriously disturbing that you are still banging on in the same vein. This war is disgusting, you do have to step out of the propaganda pool you're in to see how there can be a solution where ordinary people stop getting slaughtered. Kinda first base for a socialist. Go back and see why it is happening, and then with that understanding know how it can be solved.
I spelt out my solution a long way back. You have persisted in saying nothing bar being enthiusiastic about demonising one side and justifying the slaughter. I say you, it's so many here doing similar, but I did think you had the nouse to see beyond big balls futility.
What a bizarre response to the specifics of my post.
Usual hollow response.
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Do we start with the park or the apartment buildings?
Go on then. And what else?
Three schools
One kindergarten
Two social hubs
Six cultural institutions
Five medical facilities
Two administrative buildings
Several power stations and other electrical facilities, to the point of Ukraine stopping electricity export. More of this today.
Azov and Gallicia Brig, SBU HQ in Kiev.
Mobile towers.
Rail centres.
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Do we start with the park or the apartment buildings?
Go on then. And what else?
Three schools
One kindergarten
Two social hubs
Six cultural institutions
Five medical facilities
Two administrative buildings
Several power stations and other electrical facilities, to the point of Ukraine stopping electricity export. More of this today.
Azov and Gallicia Brig, SBU HQ in Kiev.
Mobile towers.
Rail centres.
And..
Three schools
One kindergarten
Two social hubs
Six cultural institutions
Five medical facilities
Two administrative buildings
And a pavement and a road junction.
If I shoot three murderers and 10 children, I've still shot 10 children.
Your logic is beyond reprehensible.
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And by the way. The analogy I just gave is more than meeting you halfway. It's accepting that Russia trying to destroy power and communications systems is justified as an act of war. It isn't. It is an act of terrorism by an aggressive invader, aimed at pauperising the Ukrainian people.
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Do we start with the park or the apartment buildings?
Go on then. And what else?
Three schools
One kindergarten
Two social hubs
Six cultural institutions
Five medical facilities
Two administrative buildings
Several power stations and other electrical facilities, to the point of Ukraine stopping electricity export. More of this today.
Azov and Gallicia Brig, SBU HQ in Kiev.
Mobile towers.
Rail centres.
And..
Three schools
One kindergarten
Two social hubs
Six cultural institutions
Five medical facilities
Two administrative buildings
And a pavement and a road junction.
If I shoot three murderers and 10 children, I've still shot 10 children.
Your logic is beyond reprehensible.
How many children are you saying died in the schools and playgrounds?
Who was in the admin buildings?
Who was in the medical faciities?
Who was in the social hubs?
Oh, I missed your hatred of those that fired antipersonnel mines into Donetsk. Those that shelled the bus station in Donetsk, etc etc.
#billyblinkers
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And by the way. The analogy I just gave is more than meeting you halfway. It's accepting that Russia trying to destroy power and communications systems is justified as an act of war. It isn't. It is an act of terrorism by an aggressive invader, aimed at pauperising the Ukrainian people.
Power plants are valid. As are railroads and bridges. It is aimed at ending the war sooner than otherwise would happen ie saving lives, something you would like? Zelensky could easily have avoided this whole debacle, but he's a bit thick, and anyway has his strings tied to Washington and London and Brussels. He could still end this but is opting to throw hundreds of thousands of lives away for absolutely nothing while he prances around in his green t shirt.
Putin too could push for peace, though is Zelensky open to negotiation? Apparently not. And anyway. he'd need to negotiate withh the US and NATO, not the puppet. The US is not wanting peace, neither are those that fund NATO.
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Zelensky could have avoided this.
Zelensky could have avoided this only by prostrating himself and his country at the feet of a fascist despot.
He could have avoided this in the same way that Britain could have avoided WWII, by doing what Hitler wanted.
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ISW: Russia likely relocating ammunition, other materiel from Belarusian storage bases.
The Institute for the Study of War said on Oct. 11 that open-sourced data supports Ukraine's military reports that Russia is loading trains with weapons, equipment, ammunition, and other unspecified materiel from Belarus to relocate to areas of engagement further south and east.
The experts think such activity is "incompatible with setting conditions for a large-scale Russian or Belarusian ground attack" against Ukraine from Belarus.
So exactly the opposite to what BRR told us (again). Unless Belarussian troops are going to 'invade the west' barehanded with no-back-up?
That's what happens when you get fiction for your information rather than fact.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1580030159108788225
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Zelensky could have avoided this.
Zelensky could have avoided this only by prostrating himself and his country at the feet of a fascist despot.
He could have avoided this in the same way that Britain could have avoided WWII, by doing what Hitler wanted.
Which is exactly what the Putin appeasers (many of whom have received a lot of money from Putin to be his propoganists in the west for many years - and see that source of wealth floating away) want. And if they are the people who you get your information from...
You don't appease facist dictators. History tells us they are never satisfied - however much terror, horror and cruelty they are allowed to impose on innocent people - they always come back for more. Always.
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ISW: Russia likely relocating ammunition, other materiel from Belarusian storage bases.
The Institute for the Study of War said on Oct. 11 that open-sourced data supports Ukraine's military reports that Russia is loading trains with weapons, equipment, ammunition, and other unspecified materiel from Belarus to relocate to areas of engagement further south and east.
The experts think such activity is "incompatible with setting conditions for a large-scale Russian or Belarusian ground attack" against Ukraine from Belarus.
So exactly the opposite to what BRR told us (again). Unless Belarussian troops are going to 'invade the west' barehanded with no-back-up?
That's what happens when you get fiction for your information rather than fact.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1580030159108788225
So desperate to prove you are right? You make it personal is a playground way (yeah, back at ya if you wanna go that way), when surely the adult side of discussion here is about trying to understand the truth of what's going on through the massive fog of propaganda on both sides.
Anyway, tell me, where was I wrong? And where was I right? Where were you right? WHere were you wrong?
My view (actually just my view, not from anywhere else) on the Belarusian border still stands. It makes sense to tie up Ukraine troops there. It makes no sense for Belarus to get involved directly. As far as I understand, there are Russians training in Belarus.
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BRR-English translation:
"As far as I am aware" = "According to the Russian propaganda that I've read and uncritically assimilated".
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Zelensky could have avoided this.
Zelensky could have avoided this only by prostrating himself and his country at the feet of a fascist despot.
He could have avoided this in the same way that Britain could have avoided WWII, by doing what Hitler wanted.
Which is exactly what the Putin appeasers (many of whom have received a lot of money from Putin to be his propoganists in the west for many years - and see that source of wealth floating away) want. And if they are the people who you get your information from...
You don't appease facist dictators. History tells us they are never satisfied - however much terror, horror and cruelty they are allowed to impose on innocent people - they always come back for more. Always.
Are you suggesting NATO, US, UK, EU don't have a very expensive bill for propaganda?
Yes, Russia as a country is run on a more overt gangster format than the US, UK etc. Russia is close to fascist, but to sling that term around as you are is buying into propaganda and effectively demeaning what is actually fascist. Try https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism#Post-Soviet_Russia for starters.
And then look at how elites exert control in other nations under the guise of democracy. The US is a prime example where it is the dollar that rules, not the people. The UK is not so far behind otheriwse why would the Tories be in control implementing the policies they do that cynically benefit those that are at the top of the pile? Even a Labour victory is dependent on buying into those same policies. It's all about elites maintaining control, many ways for that to happen and most have the baseline of us v them. Star Wars and Star Trek do the same. It's all gangsterism.
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BRR-English translation:
"As far as I am aware" = "According to the Russian propaganda that I've read and uncritically assimilated".
BS.
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Zelensky could have avoided this.
Zelensky could have avoided this only by prostrating himself and his country at the feet of a fascist despot.
He could have avoided this in the same way that Britain could have avoided WWII, by doing what Hitler wanted.
Tired same old. What's your solution? Not that I expect a clear response.
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BRR-English translation:
&quot;As far as I am aware&quot; = &quot;According to the Russian propaganda that I've read and uncritically assimilated&quot;.
BS.
Yep my mistake!
"As far as I am aware"="BS".
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BST regurgitates the western propaganda endlessly with as much clue as to how to get to the endgame of it as the US, UK etc. ie he supports death of hundreds of thousands by continued pouring in of arms.
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I've asked this question over and over again without a logical reply.
Apart from the Apocalypse, what is the endgame in all this? Putin defeated and slinking off into the sunset?
I doubt it.
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ISW: Russia likely relocating ammunition, other materiel from Belarusian storage bases.
The Institute for the Study of War said on Oct. 11 that open-sourced data supports Ukraine's military reports that Russia is loading trains with weapons, equipment, ammunition, and other unspecified materiel from Belarus to relocate to areas of engagement further south and east.
The experts think such activity is &quot;incompatible with setting conditions for a large-scale Russian or Belarusian ground attack&quot; against Ukraine from Belarus.
So exactly the opposite to what BRR told us (again). Unless Belarussian troops are going to 'invade the west' barehanded with no-back-up?
That's what happens when you get fiction for your information rather than fact.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1580030159108788225
So desperate to prove you are right? You make it personal is a playground way (yeah, back at ya if you wanna go that way), when surely the adult side of discussion here is about trying to understand the truth of what's going on through the massive fog of propaganda on both sides.
Anyway, tell me, where was I wrong? And where was I right? Where were you right? WHere were you wrong?
My view (actually just my view, not from anywhere else) on the Belarusian border still stands. It makes sense to tie up Ukraine troops there. It makes no sense for Belarus to get involved directly. As far as I understand, there are Russians training in Belarus.
Because your view is not based on evidence. There are, and have not been for months, any preparations for troop movements in Belarus. You can speculate all you like - until the spy satellites see convoys gathering and logistic centres being formed - there will be no invasion from Belarus - as you have been telling us.
Speculate all you like. But unless you have evidence for that speculation be prepared to be shot down when you issue it in public.
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"There are, and have not been for months" - okay.... :laugh:
You shoot me down like a Patriot headng to the moon as the drone he was sent after chugs past and hits it's target. Anyway, enough of future projections :cool:
I said the intent was for giving Ukraine the insecurity and thus tying up some of its forces on the Belarus border. I don't expect for one minute that they will invade. How much is Ukraine prepared to gamble? Maybe less so when there are Russian troops in Belarus training.
Now, tell me again how I'm saying there will be an invasion from Belarus?
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I've asked this question over and over again without a logical reply.
Apart from the Apocalypse, what is the endgame in all this? Putin defeated and slinking off into the sunset?
I doubt it.
putin can't win Steve, he cannot be allowed to beat the Ukraine and he cannot defeat NATO.
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So, how does the war come to an end then.
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I've asked this question over and over again without a logical reply.
Apart from the Apocalypse, what is the endgame in all this? Putin defeated and slinking off into the sunset?
I doubt it.
putin can't win Steve, he cannot be allowed to beat the Ukraine and he cannot defeat NATO.
Putin personally cannot lose, neither can Russia. So what's your take on how it can play out?
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It won't be by rounding up known sympathisers and using them as a bargaining chip as putin only gives a shit about himself.
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So you are telling us how it wont end but not offering anything to say how it will end.
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I've asked this question over and over again without a logical reply.
Apart from the Apocalypse, what is the endgame in all this? Putin defeated and slinking off into the sunset?
I doubt it.
putin can't win Steve, he cannot be allowed to beat the Ukraine and he cannot defeat NATO.
Putin personally cannot lose, neither can Russia. So what's your take on how it can play out?
There will be a peace conference and national borders will be agreed and ratified by both sides.
Where those borders will be will no likely depend on where the respective armies are at the time. Who will be leading the Russian side is debatable because Putin doesn't want peace - he wants to destroy Ukraine.
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The recent vote in the UN on Territorial integrity for Ukraine tells a very interesting story when you look at those who voted against it or who abstained.
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There will be a peace conference and national borders will be agreed and ratified by both sides.
Where those borders will be will no likely depend on where the respective armies are at the time. Who will be leading the Russian side is debatable because Putin doesn't want peace - he wants to destroy Ukraine.
No, Russia wants to destroy the Ukraine military capability, plus push back borders to where it feels safe, which is potentially as far as Poland and Hungary, although quite possibly further east would be easier to fully assimilate given the greater anti Russian feelings the further west you go. NATO's position of accepting Ukraine means the border is ever pushed West, though only max to Poland and Hungary.
There is no doubt whatsoever that the NATO moves to include Ukraine are responsible for all this, and to go further back, the loose agreement of NATO being restricted to East Germany at the point of German reunification which came before the dissolution of the Soviet Union should have been made more definite. That is the fault of Gorbachev and the chaotic Soviet Union as was. That this didn't include the Warsaw Pact countries was slack to the extreme, though was implicitly in the spirit of what was agreed. I understand NATO walking over this, but that they did, and that is undoubtedly agressive despite the Orwellian "we're just a defensive organisation" mantra.
Whether or not you agree with the facts above as being relevant within the parameters of causality in the war, it is how the Russians see it. Therefore, without any Ukraine military victory, and realistically that ain't gonna happen without NATO countries risking amrmageddon, any peace agreement would be something that Russia can feel safe about.
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"No, Russia wants to destroy the Ukraine military capability"
Which of course is why they use an air-to-ship missile to destroy a shopping centre and why they use ballistic missiles to hit traffic junctions in the Kyiv rush hour.
"There is no doubt whatsoever that the NATO moves to include Ukraine are responsible for all this, and to go further back, the loose agreement of NATO being restricted to East Germany at the point of German reunification which came before the dissolution of the Soviet Union should have been made more definite."
Translation: Countries in Europe shouldn't be allowed to determine their own foreign policy, because we mustn't upset the 50 year out of date way that Russia views itself as a Great Power.
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"No, Russia wants to destroy the Ukraine military capability"
Which of course is why they use an air-to-ship missile to destroy a shopping centre and why they use ballistic missiles to hit traffic junctions in the Kyiv rush hour.
"There is no doubt whatsoever that the NATO moves to include Ukraine are responsible for all this, and to go further back, the loose agreement of NATO being restricted to East Germany at the point of German reunification which came before the dissolution of the Soviet Union should have been made more definite."
Translation: Countries in Europe shouldn't be allowed to determine their own foreign policy, because we mustn't upset the 50 year out of date way that Russia views itself as a Great Power.
You haven't seen any destruction of any Ukraine military. Might explain your ungrounded take on all this.
Your second point displays naiivity at best, but moreso, plain unrealism.
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Textbook BRR. When faced with an argument that doesn't fit what you want to believe, throw out criticism like chaff.
Stick to the point. YOU claim that Russia's strategy us to destroy Ukraine's military fighting capability. If that's what you believe, YOU explain how that squares with using £1m+ missiles to attack civilian settings.
No bluster. No deviation from point. Explain that and then we can have a grown up discussion.
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I've asked this question over and over again without a logical reply.
Apart from the Apocalypse, what is the endgame in all this? Putin defeated and slinking off into the sunset?
I doubt it.
Here's a Yale Prof of the History of War giving his take on how this could well end.
https://t.co/n1bYhCZBFv
tl:dr? Those who say either Putin gets what he wants or it's Armageddon time are massively underestimating other ways this could end.
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Textbook BRR. When faced with an argument that doesn't fit what you want to believe, throw out criticism like chaff.
Stick to the point. YOU claim that Russia's strategy us to destroy Ukraine's military fighting capability. If that's what you believe, YOU explain how that squares with using £1m+ missiles to attack civilian settings.
No bluster. No deviation from point. Explain that and then we can have a grown up discussion.
You're digging a bonkers hole here. Have you not seen the destruction of Ukraine military at all? Or do you want to zoom in with your blinkers to a few missiles that missed, and only the Russian ones that is. You're getting ever further up the bloody tree here.
How many Ukraine tanks and other armoured vehicles have gone? How many troops? It is being systematically destroyed and the increase in effort hasn't begun to appear yet.
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I've asked this question over and over again without a logical reply.
Apart from the Apocalypse, what is the endgame in all this? Putin defeated and slinking off into the sunset?
I doubt it.
Here's a Yale Prof of the History of War giving his take on how this could well end.
https://t.co/n1bYhCZBFv
tl:dr? Those who say either Putin gets what he wants or it's Armageddon time are massively underestimating other ways this could end.
His language is that of the US military, clearly as onside with that as Kwateng is with Liz Truss. If the US command are still thinking of this kind of scenario, it's not good for Ukraine, but then they don't give a flying cowpat about Ukraine.
He uses Vietnam, Afghanistan as examples of why thetre won't be a nuke war. He's plain stupid with that. How about if Mexico aligns with China and China proposes to to plant nukes on their soil, and then the US invades Mexico (which it most definitelly would) but China supplies Mexico with arms and troops to the point where the US is getting stuck in the mud.... how close would we be then? I would trust the US far less than Russia in that situation.
However, the issue of nukes is being emphasised by the West not Russia. It's about fear unifying people. That along with the much referred to on here Russian invasions of Poland and so on.
I read the first part, then started to skim as he is banging out the same old US/NATO line about Russia. Given everything, are you saying you agree with this? What is your expected endgame scenario?
To be clear, I'm not saying this can't happen, but it's far far more in the fairy tale heads of the US military than in the likelihood of manifesting.
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Textbook BRR. When faced with an argument that doesn't fit what you want to believe, throw out criticism like chaff.
Stick to the point. YOU claim that Russia's strategy us to destroy Ukraine's military fighting capability. If that's what you believe, YOU explain how that squares with using £1m+ missiles to attack civilian settings.
No bluster. No deviation from point. Explain that and then we can have a grown up discussion.
You're digging a bonkers hole here. Have you not seen the destruction of Ukraine military at all? Or do you want to zoom in with your blinkers to a few missiles that missed, and only the Russian ones that is. You're getting ever further up the bloody tree here.
How many Ukraine tanks and other armoured vehicles have gone? How many troops? It is being systematically destroyed and the increase in effort hasn't begun to appear yet.
You're struggling here BRR aren't you? Let me simplify it for you.
YOU made a claim that simply doesn't mesh with the evidence. So I asked you to reflect on that. I didn't ask you to comment on what I had or had not seen, or what I do or do not believe.
I don't get why that is so difficult for you to engage with.
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Textbook BRR. When faced with an argument that doesn't fit what you want to believe, throw out criticism like chaff.
Stick to the point. YOU claim that Russia's strategy us to destroy Ukraine's military fighting capability. If that's what you believe, YOU explain how that squares with using £1m+ missiles to attack civilian settings.
No bluster. No deviation from point. Explain that and then we can have a grown up discussion.
You're digging a bonkers hole here. Have you not seen the destruction of Ukraine military at all? Or do you want to zoom in with your blinkers to a few missiles that missed, and only the Russian ones that is. You're getting ever further up the bloody tree here.
How many Ukraine tanks and other armoured vehicles have gone? How many troops? It is being systematically destroyed and the increase in effort hasn't begun to appear yet.
You're struggling here BRR aren't you? Let me simplify it for you.
YOU made a claim that simply doesn't mesh with the evidence. So I asked you to reflect on that. I didn't ask you to comment on what I had or had not seen, or what I do or do not believe.
I don't get why that is so difficult for you to engage with.
Are you wanting me to say, yes a few missiles missed their target? I already said that. Be clear.
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Right. We're getting somewhere.
What military target was close to the kid's playpark in Kyiv?
What target was close to the shopping centre in Kremenchuk?
Do you have any reflections on the "missing of targets" with the use in densely built up urban areas of weapons that have, at best, an accuracy of +/-100m?
And when you've stopped for a minute to consider those points, perhaps you can tell us if you truly believe that Russia is trying to destroy Ukraine's military, rather than trying to terrorise and attack its civilians?
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There will be a peace conference and national borders will be agreed and ratified by both sides.
Where those borders will be will no likely depend on where the respective armies are at the time. Who will be leading the Russian side is debatable because Putin doesn't want peace - he wants to destroy Ukraine.
No, Russia wants to destroy the Ukraine military capability, plus push back borders to where it feels safe, which is potentially as far as Poland and Hungary, although quite possibly further east would be easier to fully assimilate given the greater anti Russian feelings the further west you go. NATO's position of accepting Ukraine means the border is ever pushed West, though only max to Poland and Hungary.
There is no doubt whatsoever that the NATO moves to include Ukraine are responsible for all this, and to go further back, the loose agreement of NATO being restricted to East Germany at the point of German reunification which came before the dissolution of the Soviet Union should have been made more definite. That is the fault of Gorbachev and the chaotic Soviet Union as was. That this didn't include the Warsaw Pact countries was slack to the extreme, though was implicitly in the spirit of what was agreed. I understand NATO walking over this, but that they did, and that is undoubtedly agressive despite the Orwellian "we're just a defensive organisation" mantra.
Whether or not you agree with the facts above as being relevant within the parameters of causality in the war, it is how the Russians see it. Therefore, without any Ukraine military victory, and realistically that ain't gonna happen without NATO countries risking amrmageddon, any peace agreement would be something that Russia can feel safe about.
Sorry but again I am going to take great exception to the point highlighted for the same reason I have given before. Please again do not mistake the NATO Organisation headed by Stoltenberg with all the NATO Member nations with their often diverging agendas.
NATO the organisation is absolutely a Defensive Alliance by charter and reality. Some NATO nations are often held back in their more aggressive intentions by the requirement of a unanimous vote for NATO to act, and those nations often act unilaterally, or within an ad-hoc 'coalition of the willing'.
To suggest otherwise is to insult some very fine NATO leaders, including the great Manfred Woerner and also George Robertson who typified the real NATO when he said:
In September 2022, during the 7th month of the Ukraine War, interviewed by Channel 4 about his nine meetings with Vladimir Putin, Robertson said, "At the first meeting (in Moscow) Vladimir Putin clearly said, 'I WANT RUSSIA TO BE PART OF WESTERN EUROPE...at the 2nd meeting (in Brussels) he said..'WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO INVITE RUSSIA TO JOIN NATO?'...I started to sort of reach out and engage them in so many activities that they basically couldn't fight with us.. but after I left NATO (in Dec 2003), the American administration, the Bush administration (during their own illegal war on Iraq opposed by Putin), lost any interest basically in doing business with Russia, they saw it as a threat..they didn't really want to make it part of the overall partnership. I think we missed an opportunity at that time because I think it's what he (Putin) wanted, and we could have grabbed hold of him!"
May I ask you to direct your criticism at the appropriate targets.
Edit: For clarification, it may just be careless use of terminology on your part, so if you were to say 'some in the west are not entirely defensive then I would not disagree (see Robertson above). But please do not tar the NATO organisation itself with the same brush.
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Right. We're getting somewhere.
What military target was close to the kid's playpark in Kyiv?
What target was close to the shopping centre in Kremenchuk?
Do you have any reflections on the "missing of targets" with the use in densely built up urban areas of weapons that have, at best, an accuracy of +/-100m?
And when you've stopped for a minute to consider those points, perhaps you can tell us if you truly believe that Russia is trying to destroy Ukraine's military, rather than trying to terrorise and attack its civilians?
There can be many reasons why a missile misses it's target. The shopping centre we already discussed at great length.
You have consistently not replied to Ukraine's shelling of cililian targets in Donetsk as a for instance? Plus the land mines shelled there.
What proportion of Russian missiles are you suggesting hit playgrounds, civilian only buildings etc? Do you miss the destruction of military targets?
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Yes we discussed the shopping centre at length.
You posted Russian lies. Demonstrable lies. You never retracted them. That told me all I needed to know about your approach.
That was a black and white case of a war crime. You twisted yourself in knots to justify it.
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According to experts Russia inly has a third of its high precision missiles left, it looks like Putin has used his box of fireworks before bonfire night, he’ll have to start using the old jumping jacks, and we all know they just go all over the place
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And according to experts (maybe the same ones I dunno) Russia only has fully funtion kit & equipment to deploy 1/10th of the conscripts they called up.
Ukraine is getting stronger with more modern NATO equipment, now rushing lots of Air Defence systems there, as Russia gets weaker by not being able to replace their munitions.
I did see a stat the other day which said Ukraine has put into service more captured and re-purposed Russian tanks than the total number the British Army own.
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I read in April that Russia was running out of ammo, morale, troops, tanks....
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It will only be a matter of time before the balance is tipped and the Russians are sending in their cannon fodder again (2nd world war style) they will have nothing left but Soviet era munitions and any vodka drunk who can stand up straight for long enough to get drafted.
Can we expect the regime to do the unthinkable or even at this late stage are there people there with enough about them to stop Putin taking the world back into the stone age?
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Can we expect the regime to do the unthinkable or even at this late stage are there people there with enough about them to stop Putin taking the world back into the stone age?
It's one of the tenents of fascism to create external fear to induce compliance.
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Can we expect the regime to do the unthinkable or even at this late stage are there people there with enough about them to stop Putin taking the world back into the stone age?
It's one of the tenents of fascism to create external fear to induce compliance.
That's one way to look at it, another is that the world will not be allowing Putin to profit from this escapade, whatever happens from here on in Putin will not be free to saviour the fruits of his demented brain.
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This is the sort of incident that starts wars.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63327999
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This is the sort of incident that starts wars.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-63327999
"Luke Pollard, Labour's shadow defence minister, said: "This incident also acts as a serious reminder about the importance of avoiding escalation and miscalculation while continuing the UK's united support for Ukraine."
Is the Labour shadow advocating we desist from patrolling international airspace or just a reminder that he exists?
Because this sounds like a proper soundbite to justify a position that would not be his if he had the authority.
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I think he means a miscalculation could be flying into Russian airspace by accident, that would certainly be problematic.
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As Korean Air Lines flight 007 found out to its very expensive cost.
BobG
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We're talking about the RAF here, if they ended up flying in Russian airspace it would be for a reason, not a miscalculation !
What do you think we have been doing since the war, its the reason we are there in the first place and it happens more often then is made public.
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The word was miscalculation. Anyone can do it. Korean Airlines 007 did just that.
BobG
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Meanwhile Iran supplies sophisticated drones to Russia because Russia is allegedly running out of its own dated missiles.
As Western sanctions hit & hurt both regimes pragmatism has made them ‘uncomfortable bedfellows’.
Their growing ‘alliance’ should be a concern to all western countries.
Thank goodness we have our finger on the pulse on world events at this moment in time!
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Not to mention ex RAF training the Chinese, is it all down to money, is that where we are?
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Meanwhile Iran supplies sophisticated drones to Russia because Russia is allegedly running out of its own dated missiles.
As Western sanctions hit & hurt both regimes pragmatism has made them ‘uncomfortable bedfellows’.
Their growing ‘alliance’ should be a concern to all western countries.
Thank goodness we have our finger on the pulse on world events at this moment in time!
Someone once said ' the enemy of my enemy is my friend'.
Possibly an ancient Chinese General or possibly one of the Kardashians.
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Not to mention ex RAF training the Chinese, is it all down to money, is that where we are?
I just can't understand the mentality of someone selling his services
To a highly potential enemy of his own country!
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Winston I do believe Mugnapper.
BobG
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Not to mention ex RAF training the Chinese, is it all down to money, is that where we are?
I just can't understand the mentality of someone selling his services
To a highly potential enemy of his own country!
In my opinion they should be charged with Treason
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Not to mention ex RAF training the Chinese, is it all down to money, is that where we are?
I just can't understand the mentality of someone selling his services
To a highly potential enemy of his own country!
In my opinion they should be charged with Treason
Why? Are we at war with China?
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Winston I do believe Mugnapper.
BobG
Ray Winston? I think he's famous for saying 'You're only supposed to blow the bladdy doors off'!
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Winston I do believe Mugnapper.
BobG
Ray Winston? I think he's famous for saying 'You're only supposed to blow the bladdy doors off'!
Michael Caine
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Winston I do believe Mugnapper.
BobG
Ray Winston? I think he's famous for saying 'You're only supposed to blow the bladdy doors off'!
Michael Caine
Not a lot of people know that
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Winston I do believe Mugnapper.
BobG
Ray Winston? I think he's famous for saying 'You're only supposed to blow the bladdy doors off'!
I thought it was what Jim Morrison said to Marianne Faithfull after catching her with Mick Jagger at a Glastonbury festival.
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Ray Winston eh, he has such a range.
Him in Dr Zhivago 'Lara, you slaaaag'
Him in Star Wars 'Princess Leah you slaaag'
Him doing Shakespeare ' Juliet, you fackin slaaag'
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Carrie you Slaaag
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Not to mention ex RAF training the Chinese, is it all down to money, is that where we are?
I just can't understand the mentality of someone selling his services
To a highly potential enemy of his own country!
In my opinion they should be charged with Treason
Why? Are we at war with China?
Britain, US & Australia conducts right of passage through the Taiwanese Straits and vis the Spratly Islands, if an 'incident' occurred it is possible that those boats may come under attack from ex RAF trained Chinese pilots.
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Not to mention ex RAF training the Chinese, is it all down to money, is that where we are?
I just can't understand the mentality of someone selling his services
To a highly potential enemy of his own country!
In my opinion they should be charged with Treason
Why? Are we at war with China?
Britain, US & Australia conducts right of passage through the Taiwanese Straits and vis the Spratly Islands, if an 'incident' occurred it is possible that those boats may come under attack from ex RAF trained Chinese pilots.
If an incident occured? Like what? If there are potential incident issues then someone should be taking more care. If Chinese planes get drawn in then that's the fault of the incident and nothing to do with the training.
And then it should be noted the efforts the UK Gov goes to in order to woo China. Fine when it's profitting some fat cat but not when it trips up the geo politics games played out on China's border? Oh yeah, the US once again pushing borders far far away from its own ones.
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https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/10/23/rt-presenter-says-just-drown-children-promotes-genocide-ukraine/
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Meanwhile Iran supplies sophisticated drones to Russia because Russia is allegedly running out of its own dated missiles.
As Western sanctions hit &amp; hurt both regimes pragmatism has made them ‘uncomfortable bedfellows’.
Their growing ‘alliance’ should be a concern to all western countries.
Thank goodness we have our finger on the pulse on world events at this moment in time!
Someone once said ' the enemy of my enemy is my friend'.
Possibly an ancient Chinese General or possibly one of the Kardashians.
What do you call assassins who accuse assassins anyway? My friend?
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Not to mention ex RAF training the Chinese, is it all down to money, is that where we are?
I just can't understand the mentality of someone selling his services
To a highly potential enemy of his own country!
In my opinion they should be charged with Treason
Why? Are we at war with China?
Abso bloody lutely!
Not in ‘a war’ militarily but in every other means we are & should be to the very best of our ability.
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Seconded Colin!
BobG
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Not to mention ex RAF training the Chinese, is it all down to money, is that where we are?
I just can't understand the mentality of someone selling his services
To a highly potential enemy of his own country!
In my opinion they should be charged with Treason
Why? Are we at war with China?
Abso bloody lutely!
Not in ‘a war’ militarily but in every other means we are & should be to the very best of our ability.
It doesn't seem to stop the shops being full of their wares does it?
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I remember all thise Chinese flags by the Palace when their prem visited last time, and the heavy police presence that went with that. Trying to impress. But from their side, I think they valued the Queen, but otherwise the UK is pretty irrelevant to them, an irritating fly on the shoulder at best.
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I remember all thise Chinese flags by the Palace when their prem visited last time, and the heavy police presence that went with that. Trying to impress. But from their side, I think they valued the Queen, but otherwise the UK is pretty irrelevant to them, an irritating fly on the shoulder at best.
Just remember that whilst ever this “irritating fly “ and like minded nations are present to act as a bulwark towards nations like the Chinese and Russians then they will never be able to to fully realise their warped and twisted ideology’s it’s something they will work at to attain but I would expect that outside of a worldwide cataclysmic event it will never happen.
Something they understand very well and will always have at the back of their minds whilst they hope to subject and force neighbours to bow to their will.
It ain’t gonna happen. They can play the long game for all its worth but in all scenarios they don’t win.
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I remember all thise Chinese flags by the Palace when their prem visited last time, and the heavy police presence that went with that. Trying to impress. But from their side, I think they valued the Queen, but otherwise the UK is pretty irrelevant to them, an irritating fly on the shoulder at best.
Just remember that whilst ever this “irritating fly “ and like minded nations are present to act as a bulwark towards nations like the Chinese and Russians then they will never be able to to fully realise their warped and twisted ideology’s it’s something they will work at to attain but I would expect that outside of a worldwide cataclysmic event it will never happen.
Something they understand very well and will always have at the back of their minds whilst they hope to subject and force neighbours to bow to their will.
It ain’t gonna happen. They can play the long game for all its worth but in all scenarios they don’t win.
Tell me, what is the UK's international aim?
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There will be a peace conference and national borders will be agreed and ratified by both sides.
Where those borders will be will no likely depend on where the respective armies are at the time. Who will be leading the Russian side is debatable because Putin doesn't want peace - he wants to destroy Ukraine.
No, Russia wants to destroy the Ukraine military capability, plus push back borders to where it feels safe, which is potentially as far as Poland and Hungary, although quite possibly further east would be easier to fully assimilate given the greater anti Russian feelings the further west you go. NATO's position of accepting Ukraine means the border is ever pushed West, though only max to Poland and Hungary.
There is no doubt whatsoever that the NATO moves to include Ukraine are responsible for all this, and to go further back, the loose agreement of NATO being restricted to East Germany at the point of German reunification which came before the dissolution of the Soviet Union should have been made more definite. That is the fault of Gorbachev and the chaotic Soviet Union as was. That this didn't include the Warsaw Pact countries was slack to the extreme, though was implicitly in the spirit of what was agreed. I understand NATO walking over this, but that they did, and that is undoubtedly agressive despite the Orwellian &quot;we're just a defensive organisation&quot; mantra.
Whether or not you agree with the facts above as being relevant within the parameters of causality in the war, it is how the Russians see it. Therefore, without any Ukraine military victory, and realistically that ain't gonna happen without NATO countries risking amrmageddon, any peace agreement would be something that Russia can feel safe about.
Sorry but again I am going to take great exception to the point highlighted for the same reason I have given before. Please again do not mistake the NATO Organisation headed by Stoltenberg with all the NATO Member nations with their often diverging agendas.
NATO the organisation is absolutely a Defensive Alliance by charter and reality. Some NATO nations are often held back in their more aggressive intentions by the requirement of a unanimous vote for NATO to act, and those nations often act unilaterally, or within an ad-hoc 'coalition of the willing'.
To suggest otherwise is to insult some very fine NATO leaders, including the great Manfred Woerner and also George Robertson who typified the real NATO when he said:
In September 2022, during the 7th month of the Ukraine War, interviewed by Channel 4 about his nine meetings with Vladimir Putin, Robertson said, "At the first meeting (in Moscow) Vladimir Putin clearly said, 'I WANT RUSSIA TO BE PART OF WESTERN EUROPE...at the 2nd meeting (in Brussels) he said..'WHEN ARE YOU GOING TO INVITE RUSSIA TO JOIN NATO?'...I started to sort of reach out and engage them in so many activities that they basically couldn't fight with us.. but after I left NATO (in Dec 2003), the American administration, the Bush administration (during their own illegal war on Iraq opposed by Putin), lost any interest basically in doing business with Russia, they saw it as a threat..they didn't really want to make it part of the overall partnership. I think we missed an opportunity at that time because I think it's what he (Putin) wanted, and we could have grabbed hold of him!"
May I ask you to direct your criticism at the appropriate targets.
Edit: For clarification, it may just be careless use of terminology on your part, so if you were to say 'some in the west are not entirely defensive then I would not disagree (see Robertson above). But please do not tar the NATO organisation itself with the same brush.
Hi Dutch, sorry slow replying to this. We agree about the ad hoc actions of the willing as you put it. That is undoubtedly partly facilitated by there being a NATO and as such I think it naiive and foolish to see NATO itself as being wholey separate to that function. Tho I don't think you're disagreeing there, just on the specific reference to NATO itself, whithin its bounds as separate to those nations making t up.
My problem with seeing NATO itself as kind of benign, is that in no understanding of the real world can that be considered realistic. Even as a grouping around which those ad hoc combatents gather, it is partly engaged as a function if not as a legal construct.
The big issue in this instance is NATO inviting Ukraine into its fold. I realise NATO has a kind of open door policy, but taking exactly that "kind of" then it was inevitable that Russia would react to the Ukraine potential. NATO should have made it clear that their inclusion would not be in the name of peace for the world. Anyone could see that. So the question there is why they didn't make that statement. Of course it is because of US, and UK, policy. ie NATO functions even on its legalistic "neutral" form as part of the agressive, hawkish, members. It is ultimately directed by them.
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I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/
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I remember all thise Chinese flags by the Palace when their prem visited last time, and the heavy police presence that went with that. Trying to impress. But from their side, I think they valued the Queen, but otherwise the UK is pretty irrelevant to them, an irritating fly on the shoulder at best.
Just remember that whilst ever this “irritating fly “ and like minded nations are present to act as a bulwark towards nations like the Chinese and Russians then they will never be able to to fully realise their warped and twisted ideology’s it’s something they will work at to attain but I would expect that outside of a worldwide cataclysmic event it will never happen.
Something they understand very well and will always have at the back of their minds whilst they hope to subject and force neighbours to bow to their will.
It ain’t gonna happen. They can play the long game for all its worth but in all scenarios they don’t win.
Tell me, what is the UK's international aim?
Peace and Love.
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I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/
The UN investigation into human rights abuses in the war makes deeply upsetting reading.
Dozens of cases of Russian forces committing rape (including of children as young as 4), torture and execution.
They found 2 examples of Ukraine forces mistreating Russian soldiers.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/09/1127691
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I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/
The UN investigation into human rights abuses in the war makes deeply upsetting reading.
Dozens of cases of Russian forces committing rape (including of children as young as 4), torture and execution.
They found 2 examples of Ukraine forces mistreating Russian soldiers.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/09/1127691
What a surpise. It's surprising that you don't find anything if you have no intention of looking for it. More MSM bullshit.
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Hello to our resident fascist.
That's the UN's own investigation. What the f**k the MSM has to do with it, Lord knows. In sure your outburst makes sense to you.
Fascist.
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I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/
If that article had any credibilty it would also be citing Ukraine crimes, Ukraine shelling of civilians, etc etc. It doesn't.
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I remember all thise Chinese flags by the Palace when their prem visited last time, and the heavy police presence that went with that. Trying to impress. But from their side, I think they valued the Queen, but otherwise the UK is pretty irrelevant to them, an irritating fly on the shoulder at best.
Just remember that whilst ever this “irritating fly “ and like minded nations are present to act as a bulwark towards nations like the Chinese and Russians then they will never be able to to fully realise their warped and twisted ideology’s it’s something they will work at to attain but I would expect that outside of a worldwide cataclysmic event it will never happen.
Something they understand very well and will always have at the back of their minds whilst they hope to subject and force neighbours to bow to their will.
It ain’t gonna happen. They can play the long game for all its worth but in all scenarios they don’t win.
Tell me, what is the UK's international aim?
Peace and Love.
Like in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq for example?
I realise you are taking the piss, but that just seems to show you don't really see UK policy as anything but the opposite of peace and love.
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I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/
The UN investigation into human rights abuses in the war makes deeply upsetting reading.
Dozens of cases of Russian forces committing rape (including of children as young as 4), torture and execution.
They found 2 examples of Ukraine forces mistreating Russian soldiers.
https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/09/1127691
I note you don't apply those same standards of being held up for wrong doings when it comes to the establishment machinery investigating the Tories.
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I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/
If that article had any credibilty it would also be citing Ukraine crimes, Ukraine shelling of civilians, etc etc. It doesn't.
So you're suggesting it didn't happen then? Really?
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Hello to our resident fascist.
That's the UN's own investigation. What the f**k the MSM has to do with it, Lord knows. In sure your outburst makes sense to you.
Fascist.
This sounds like Sunak in PMQs deflecting with the insults. And then unlike Sunak, you believe what you are saying.
The UN investigation.... not at all influenced by any of its sponsoring members, nor by not having looked at the shelling of Donetsk with petal mines. That's a total farce of an inquiry, as are many if not most inquiries in this "free" world.
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I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/
If that article had any credibilty it would also be citing Ukraine crimes, Ukraine shelling of civilians, etc etc. It doesn't.
So you're suggesting it didn't happen then? Really?
I'm sure various crimes happened, and I'm sure Ukraine manufactured many too. I'm also pointing out that to believe Ukraine is some relatively innocent party here is naiive. War creates lies, endless levels of propaganda, the thickest "fog", and also allows thugs to run riot - which happens with every military on earth. Sure, some peoples are more likely to play dirty than others, but if you're thinking Ukraine is any better than Russia on that score you haven't read or researched enough.
Meanwhile, like I said, that article is 100% one sided. That kills its credibility.
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I remember all thise Chinese flags by the Palace when their prem visited last time, and the heavy police presence that went with that. Trying to impress. But from their side, I think they valued the Queen, but otherwise the UK is pretty irrelevant to them, an irritating fly on the shoulder at best.
Just remember that whilst ever this “irritating fly “ and like minded nations are present to act as a bulwark towards nations like the Chinese and Russians then they will never be able to to fully realise their warped and twisted ideology’s it’s something they will work at to attain but I would expect that outside of a worldwide cataclysmic event it will never happen.
Something they understand very well and will always have at the back of their minds whilst they hope to subject and force neighbours to bow to their will.
It ain’t gonna happen. They can play the long game for all its worth but in all scenarios they don’t win.
Tell me, what is the UK's international aim?
Peace and Love.
Like in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq for example?
I realise you are taking the piss, but that just seems to show you don't really see UK policy as anything but the opposite of peace and love.
All Russia wants is peace and love just like, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan and Syria
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I remember all thise Chinese flags by the Palace when their prem visited last time, and the heavy police presence that went with that. Trying to impress. But from their side, I think they valued the Queen, but otherwise the UK is pretty irrelevant to them, an irritating fly on the shoulder at best.
Just remember that whilst ever this “irritating fly “ and like minded nations are present to act as a bulwark towards nations like the Chinese and Russians then they will never be able to to fully realise their warped and twisted ideology’s it’s something they will work at to attain but I would expect that outside of a worldwide cataclysmic event it will never happen.
Something they understand very well and will always have at the back of their minds whilst they hope to subject and force neighbours to bow to their will.
It ain’t gonna happen. They can play the long game for all its worth but in all scenarios they don’t win.
Tell me, what is the UK's international aim?
Peace and Love.
Like in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq for example?
I realise you are taking the piss, but that just seems to show you don't really see UK policy as anything but the opposite of peace and love.
All Russia wants is peace and love just like, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan and Syria
Oh and Ukraine
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Let's have a think.
Who to believe? Who to believe?
The office of the Under Secretary of the UN?
Or AL and BRR's Telegram mates posting lines from the Russian MoD?
So hard being a grown up int it? All these really hard choices.
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I remember all thise Chinese flags by the Palace when their prem visited last time, and the heavy police presence that went with that. Trying to impress. But from their side, I think they valued the Queen, but otherwise the UK is pretty irrelevant to them, an irritating fly on the shoulder at best.
Just remember that whilst ever this “irritating fly “ and like minded nations are present to act as a bulwark towards nations like the Chinese and Russians then they will never be able to to fully realise their warped and twisted ideology’s it’s something they will work at to attain but I would expect that outside of a worldwide cataclysmic event it will never happen.
Something they understand very well and will always have at the back of their minds whilst they hope to subject and force neighbours to bow to their will.
It ain’t gonna happen. They can play the long game for all its worth but in all scenarios they don’t win.
Tell me, what is the UK's international aim?
Peace and Love.
Like in Libya, Afghanistan, Iraq for example?
I realise you are taking the piss, but that just seems to show you don't really see UK policy as anything but the opposite of peace and love.
All Russia wants is peace and love just like, Poland, Czechoslovakia, Afghanistan and Syria
I was asking about the UK. Have you got a response to that?
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Let's have a think.
Who to believe? Who to believe?
The office of the Under Secretary of the UN?
Or AL and BRR's Telegram mates posting lines from the Russian MoD?
So hard being a grown up int it? All these really hard choices.
Believe your mates down the pub, or Chumley Chum-Chumley who writes your newspapers, runs the police, owns the banks, sets your education system, runs your government, IS your government. We know where BST stands, or lies.
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Anyone?
No, me neither.
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Your response to what the UK's international aim is?
Or was that your realistic take on what should happen in Ukraine?
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I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/
If that article had any credibilty it would also be citing Ukraine crimes, Ukraine shelling of civilians, etc etc. It doesn't.
It's a bit like someone posting on here and only criticising Ukraine whilst excusing documented Russian atrociities - how do they expect to have any credibility?
Oh!
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Your response to what the UK's international aim is?
Or was that your realistic take on what should happen in Ukraine?
An end to the illegal Russian invasion of Ukrainian territory, the withdrawal of all Russian troops and a renewed committment to the terms of the 1994 Budapest Memoradum including national borders.
https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb
What are the Russian aims?
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I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/
If that article had any credibilty it would also be citing Ukraine crimes, Ukraine shelling of civilians, etc etc. It doesn't.
It's a bit like someone posting on here and only criticising Ukraine whilst excusing documented Russian atrociities - how do they expect to have any credibility?
Oh!
Good, so you agree it lacks credibility.
-
Your response to what the UK's international aim is?
Or was that your realistic take on what should happen in Ukraine?
An end to the illegal Russian invasion of Ukrainian territory, the withdrawal of all Russian troops and a renewed committment to the terms of the 1994 Budapest Memoradum including national borders.
https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb
What are the Russian aims?
I said realistic, because we know that isn't an option in the terms you relate to.
There is a slight possibility Russia would go as far as Crimea and Donbas with an agreement of Ukraine not joining NATO. Though most likely that would also include those territories Russia now considers as Russian Federaton.
However, as it stands, NATO won't exclude Ukraine - mainly as the US currently says so.
So what your preferred option is, in the real world, is for fighting to continue costing tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives. Nice.
-
Your response to what the UK's international aim is?
Or was that your realistic take on what should happen in Ukraine?
An end to the illegal Russian invasion of Ukrainian territory, the withdrawal of all Russian troops and a renewed committment to the terms of the 1994 Budapest Memoradum including national borders.
https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb
What are the Russian aims?
I said realistic, because we know that isn't an option in the terms you relate to.
There is a slight possibility Russia would go as far as Crimea and Donbas with an agreement of Ukraine not joining NATO. Though most likely that would also include those territories Russia now considers as Russian Federaton.
However, as it stands, NATO won't exclude Ukraine - mainly as the US currently says so.
So what your preferred option is, in the real world, is for fighting to continue costing tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives. Nice.
All it takes is for Putin to stop being a t**t or even better, die.
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I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/
If that article had any credibilty it would also be citing Ukraine crimes, Ukraine shelling of civilians, etc etc. It doesn't.
So you're suggesting it didn't happen then? Really?
I'm sure various crimes happened, and I'm sure Ukraine manufactured many too. I'm also pointing out that to believe Ukraine is some relatively innocent party here is naiive. War creates lies, endless levels of propaganda, the thickest "fog", and also allows thugs to run riot - which happens with every military on earth. Sure, some peoples are more likely to play dirty than others, but if you're thinking Ukraine is any better than Russia on that score you haven't read or researched enough.
Meanwhile, like I said, that article is 100% one sided. That kills its credibility.
How on earth does something that is documented with evidence, irrespective of the 'side' documenting it, kill it's credibility?
If you believe that Ukraine are committing similar atrocities then please provide equivalent documentary evidence.
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Your response to what the UK's international aim is?
Or was that your realistic take on what should happen in Ukraine?
An end to the illegal Russian invasion of Ukrainian territory, the withdrawal of all Russian troops and a renewed committment to the terms of the 1994 Budapest Memoradum including national borders.
https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb
What are the Russian aims?
I said realistic, because we know that isn't an option in the terms you relate to.
There is a slight possibility Russia would go as far as Crimea and Donbas with an agreement of Ukraine not joining NATO. Though most likely that would also include those territories Russia now considers as Russian Federaton.
However, as it stands, NATO won't exclude Ukraine - mainly as the US currently says so.
So what your preferred option is, in the real world, is for fighting to continue costing tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives. Nice.
All it takes is for Putin to stop being a t**t or even better, die.
So you too are in favour of continuing with tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths. That's you, Wilts and BST - probs all got shares in the prosthetics industry, otherwise having that opinion doesn't look too good.
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I thought the reason Russia invaded Ukraine was to wipe out Nazism not perpetrate it!
https://euromaidanpress.com/2022/10/25/this-is-what-genocide-looks-like-russian-torture-chambers-in-kharkiv-oblast/
If that article had any credibilty it would also be citing Ukraine crimes, Ukraine shelling of civilians, etc etc. It doesn't.
So you're suggesting it didn't happen then? Really?
I'm sure various crimes happened, and I'm sure Ukraine manufactured many too. I'm also pointing out that to believe Ukraine is some relatively innocent party here is naiive. War creates lies, endless levels of propaganda, the thickest "fog", and also allows thugs to run riot - which happens with every military on earth. Sure, some peoples are more likely to play dirty than others, but if you're thinking Ukraine is any better than Russia on that score you haven't read or researched enough.
Meanwhile, like I said, that article is 100% one sided. That kills its credibility.
How on earth does something that is documented with evidence, irrespective of the 'side' documenting it, kill it's credibility?
If you believe that Ukraine are committing similar atrocities then please provide equivalent documentary evidence.
Amnesty Int has, and a few other incidents are well documented. However, most international orgs are at best influenced by the US, plus they aren't hanging out in places like Donetsk.
Ukraine's biggest weopon is propaganda. Without that the west would be less likely to be pouring money into the country. Playing the old "evil enemy" card is what EVERY nation does, always. Yes, in some cases there is truth in that, in most there is exageration, control of news services, lies, not looking at both sides.
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You've lost me, AL. What was the point you were trying to make about the MSM?
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Run it by me how "The UN is influenced by the USA" works BRR.
Only I'm sure Russia and China are permanent members of the Security Council.
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Run it by me how "The UN is influenced by the USA" works BRR.
Only I'm sure Russia and China are permanent members of the Security Council.
The UN is more than the security council.
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So go on. Talk me through how it is controlled by the USA
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So go on. Talk me through how it is controlled by the USA
I said influenced. It is the largest financial contributor - one of the two strengths the US has, the other being "careful or I'll blow your face off".
The UN has to pussy foot around the US because of the financial situation, and because without US compliance, many things it wants to do, other countries want to do, will be blocked - outside the UN mechanisms I mean.
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Right. Got it.
So I'm surprised, say, China doesn't raise this issue when the UN produces such a clearly flawed report under pressure from the USA. Strange that they don't raise merry hell, no?
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Your response to what the UK's international aim is?
Or was that your realistic take on what should happen in Ukraine?
An end to the illegal Russian invasion of Ukrainian territory, the withdrawal of all Russian troops and a renewed committment to the terms of the 1994 Budapest Memoradum including national borders.
https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb
What are the Russian aims?
I said realistic, because we know that isn't an option in the terms you relate to.
There is a slight possibility Russia would go as far as Crimea and Donbas with an agreement of Ukraine not joining NATO. Though most likely that would also include those territories Russia now considers as Russian Federaton.
However, as it stands, NATO won't exclude Ukraine - mainly as the US currently says so.
So what your preferred option is, in the real world, is for fighting to continue costing tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives. Nice.
All it takes is for Putin to stop being a t**t or even better, die.
So you too are in favour of continuing with tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths. That's you, Wilts and BST - probs all got shares in the prosthetics industry, otherwise having that opinion doesn't look too good.
No. I just hate muderous imperialist facists.
What's your reason for not wanting Russia to end their illegal invasion? Putin's roubles in your inbox?
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Hello to our resident fascist.
That's the UN's own investigation. What the f**k the MSM has to do with it, Lord knows. In sure your outburst makes sense to you.
Fascist.
You're the one who cannot bear anyone to hold any opinion different from your own. You've proved it time and time again. Brexit, Covid, BLM, Ukraine... The only acceptable point of view is yours you arrogant prick.
Isn’t it time you stopped pissing about with your avatar & showed your ‘true colours’ with a swastika?
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Your response to what the UK's international aim is?
Or was that your realistic take on what should happen in Ukraine?
An end to the illegal Russian invasion of Ukrainian territory, the withdrawal of all Russian troops and a renewed committment to the terms of the 1994 Budapest Memoradum including national borders.
https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb
What are the Russian aims?
I said realistic, because we know that isn't an option in the terms you relate to.
There is a slight possibility Russia would go as far as Crimea and Donbas with an agreement of Ukraine not joining NATO. Though most likely that would also include those territories Russia now considers as Russian Federaton.
However, as it stands, NATO won't exclude Ukraine - mainly as the US currently says so.
So what your preferred option is, in the real world, is for fighting to continue costing tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives. Nice.
All it takes is for Putin to stop being a t**t or even better, die.
So you too are in favour of continuing with tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths. That's you, Wilts and BST - probs all got shares in the prosthetics industry, otherwise having that opinion doesn't look too good.
No. I just hate muderous imperialist facists.
What's your reason for not wanting Russia to end their illegal invasion? Putin's roubles in your inbox?
Attack the person with daft statements whilst not answering the question. Hmmmm.... I'm guessing you think no Ukraine troops are dying in this conflict? Or maybe you think their lives are worth giving up?
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I see the Russian MoD has accused the UK of attacking the Nord Stream Pipelines. No surprise if that is what happened though other countries would be involved too. Noteable that investigations are slow when the depth isn't that great.
The destruction stops Germany being swayed by Russia eg witholding gas supplies. The Norwegian gas supply is flowing but won't nearly cover the deficit from the Nord Stream attack. The US is shipping huge amounts (of fracked gas?) at the moment, though that could be limited over time. Obviously that US gas costs lots.
The argument for Russia having a motive to having destroyed it is slim at best. Something about it insisting on it being paid for in Rubles and Germany refusing this, so therefore Russia stopping supply by destruction rather than turning of the tap where it could potentially be fined. Unlikely when the threat of not supplying is potentially very valuable, and the threat of being fined is weak.
So we may be seeing the special relationship between the US and UK in action. A special relationship that causes greater hardship to UK citizens and serious consequences for Germans, and others. But one that benefits the US, and the UK's standing withh the US.
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I got as far as the first 5 words...
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Your response to what the UK's international aim is?
Or was that your realistic take on what should happen in Ukraine?
An end to the illegal Russian invasion of Ukrainian territory, the withdrawal of all Russian troops and a renewed committment to the terms of the 1994 Budapest Memoradum including national borders.
https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280401fbb
What are the Russian aims?
I said realistic, because we know that isn't an option in the terms you relate to.
There is a slight possibility Russia would go as far as Crimea and Donbas with an agreement of Ukraine not joining NATO. Though most likely that would also include those territories Russia now considers as Russian Federaton.
However, as it stands, NATO won't exclude Ukraine - mainly as the US currently says so.
So what your preferred option is, in the real world, is for fighting to continue costing tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of lives. Nice.
All it takes is for Putin to stop being a t**t or even better, die.
So you too are in favour of continuing with tens or hundreds of thousands of deaths. That's you, Wilts and BST - probs all got shares in the prosthetics industry, otherwise having that opinion doesn't look too good.
No. I just hate muderous imperialist facists.
What's your reason for not wanting Russia to end their illegal invasion? Putin's roubles in your inbox?
Attack the person with daft statements whilst not answering the question. Hmmmm.... I'm guessing you think no Ukraine troops are dying in this conflict? Or maybe you think their lives are worth giving up?
Did you miss my question? And who else thinks asking BRR this is a 'daft statement':
What's your reason for not wanting Russia to end their illegal invasion?
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I see the Russian MoD has accused the UK of attacking the Nord Stream Pipelines. No surprise if that is what happened though other countries would be involved too. Noteable that investigations are slow when the depth isn't that great.
The destruction stops Germany being swayed by Russia eg witholding gas supplies. The Norwegian gas supply is flowing but won't nearly cover the deficit from the Nord Stream attack. The US is shipping huge amounts (of fracked gas?) at the moment, though that could be limited over time. Obviously that US gas costs lots.
The argument for Russia having a motive to having destroyed it is slim at best. Something about it insisting on it being paid for in Rubles and Germany refusing this, so therefore Russia stopping supply by destruction rather than turning of the tap where it could potentially be fined. Unlikely when the threat of not supplying is potentially very valuable, and the threat of being fined is weak.
So we may be seeing the special relationship between the US and UK in action. A special relationship that causes greater hardship to UK citizens and serious consequences for Germans, and others. But one that benefits the US, and the UK's standing withh the US.
Have you ever read Bellingcat?
Russia's lies and disinformation laid out for all to see regarding Syria and the downed passenger plane over eastern Ukraine.
Russia lied through their teeth over and over again with easily disproved versions of facts.
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Wilts, I asked you, and others, what realistic solution you have to end this conflict. You just kicked off with so many diversions, never giving a reply.
All I can guess is that you can't work out any realistic solution, or your preferred realistic solution is for tens or hundreds of thousands to die. Same goes for BST, and Colin.
Quite happy to reply to your questions, as always, when you answer that.
-
Wilts, I asked you, and others, what realistic solution you have to end this conflict. You just kicked off with so many diversions, never giving a reply.
All I can guess is that you can't work out any realistic solution, or your preferred realistic solution is for tens or hundreds of thousands to die. Same goes for BST, and Colin.
Quite happy to reply to your questions, as always, when you answer that.
And your preferred solution is for Ukraine to go belly-up and surrender with 'tens of hundreds of thousands to die' in a subsequent 'cleansing' operation by the Russian invaders?
-
Wilts, I asked you, and others, what realistic solution you have to end this conflict. You just kicked off with so many diversions, never giving a reply.
All I can guess is that you can't work out any realistic solution, or your preferred realistic solution is for tens or hundreds of thousands to die. Same goes for BST, and Colin.
Quite happy to reply to your questions, as always, when you answer that.
Realistic solution? Russia should pack up and go home. There is nothing for them to win there.
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Picture BRR's take in the 1930s.
How can you possibly suggest that we should take a stand against Hitler invading the Sudetenland? There are ethnic German people there. Hitler has a right to push back against encroachment. People will die if there's fighting.
How can you possibly say we should fight to stop Hitler invading Poland? The Poles have some very right wing people in charge. Hitler has a right to re-establish control over Danzig. If we fight, tens of thousands of people will die.
How can you possibly argue that we should take a stand against Hitler invading:
Belgium
Norway
Netherlands
France
Romania
Yugoslavia
Greece
Soviet Union.
The lack of understanding of the lessons of history is breathtaking.
-
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/ukraine-crisis-russia-base/
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Wilts, I asked you, and others, what realistic solution you have to end this conflict. You just kicked off with so many diversions, never giving a reply.
All I can guess is that you can't work out any realistic solution, or your preferred realistic solution is for tens or hundreds of thousands to die. Same goes for BST, and Colin.
Quite happy to reply to your questions, as always, when you answer that.
And your preferred solution is for Ukraine to go belly-up and surrender with 'tens of hundreds of thousands to die' in a subsequent 'cleansing' operation by the Russian invaders?
Interesting, I ask for solutions and get back interpretatons and criticisms of mine. Another in favour of death then? And like I said, the realistic solution.
-
Wilts, I asked you, and others, what realistic solution you have to end this conflict. You just kicked off with so many diversions, never giving a reply.
All I can guess is that you can't work out any realistic solution, or your preferred realistic solution is for tens or hundreds of thousands to die. Same goes for BST, and Colin.
Quite happy to reply to your questions, as always, when you answer that.
Realistic solution? Russia should pack up and go home. There is nothing for them to win there.
So you think that proposal will work, interesting. Personally, I doubt that is remotely likely to be accepted by Russia without some significant pay off. Are you thinking it's likely? 80% likely? 20%?
-
Picture BRR's take in the 1930s.
How can you possibly suggest that we should take a stand against Hitler invading the Sudetenland? There are ethnic German people there. Hitler has a right to push back against encroachment. People will die if there's fighting.
How can you possibly say we should fight to stop Hitler invading Poland? The Poles have some very right wing people in charge. Hitler has a right to re-establish control over Danzig. If we fight, tens of thousands of people will die.
How can you possibly argue that we should take a stand against Hitler invading:
Belgium
Norway
Netherlands
France
Romania
Yugoslavia
Greece
Soviet Union.
The lack of understanding of the lessons of history is breathtaking.
Whatever, BST reading my mind, different times, and done and dusted. Still got no soluton for now?
-
Picture BRR's take in the 1930s.
How can you possibly suggest that we should take a stand against Hitler invading the Sudetenland? There are ethnic German people there. Hitler has a right to push back against encroachment. People will die if there's fighting.
How can you possibly say we should fight to stop Hitler invading Poland? The Poles have some very right wing people in charge. Hitler has a right to re-establish control over Danzig. If we fight, tens of thousands of people will die.
How can you possibly argue that we should take a stand against Hitler invading:
Belgium
Norway
Netherlands
France
Romania
Yugoslavia
Greece
Soviet Union.
The lack of understanding of the lessons of history is breathtaking.
Whatever, BST reading my mind, different times, and done and dusted. Still got no soluton for now?
Go on then. Explain to me why you would have supported Czechoslovakia over the Sudetenland, rather than telling them to suck it up because people would get killed if they resist.
-
Picture BRR's take in the 1930s.
How can you possibly suggest that we should take a stand against Hitler invading the Sudetenland? There are ethnic German people there. Hitler has a right to push back against encroachment. People will die if there's fighting.
How can you possibly say we should fight to stop Hitler invading Poland? The Poles have some very right wing people in charge. Hitler has a right to re-establish control over Danzig. If we fight, tens of thousands of people will die.
How can you possibly argue that we should take a stand against Hitler invading:
Belgium
Norway
Netherlands
France
Romania
Yugoslavia
Greece
Soviet Union.
The lack of understanding of the lessons of history is breathtaking.
Whatever, BST reading my mind, different times, and done and dusted. Still got no soluton for now?
Go on then. Explain to me why you would have supported Czechoslovakia over the Sudetenland, rather than telling them to suck it up because people would get killed if they resist.
This is about Ukraine. What is your idea for a solution there?
-
Germany never invaded Romania, they were in the Axis and Stalins Russia had annexed Bessarabia and Moldavia from Romania in 1939. So they were quite happy to invade Russia with Germany.
-
Wilts, I asked you, and others, what realistic solution you have to end this conflict. You just kicked off with so many diversions, never giving a reply.
All I can guess is that you can't work out any realistic solution, or your preferred realistic solution is for tens or hundreds of thousands to die. Same goes for BST, and Colin.
Quite happy to reply to your questions, as always, when you answer that.
Realistic solution? Russia should pack up and go home. There is nothing for them to win there.
So you think that proposal will work, interesting. Personally, I doubt that is remotely likely to be accepted by Russia without some significant pay off. Are you thinking it's likely? 80% likely? 20%?
Of course it would work, if Russia pulled out of Ukraine that would be an end to the conflict. A difficult one for the West to induce Putin to do, but certainly possible from within Russia when the people get tired of the body bags returning and the loss of sons, (the Russian media can't suppress those issues forever).
It's impossible to predict the likelihood, but it is certainly a solution that would minimise the bloodshed on both sides.
-
Wilts, I asked you, and others, what realistic solution you have to end this conflict. You just kicked off with so many diversions, never giving a reply.
All I can guess is that you can't work out any realistic solution, or your preferred realistic solution is for tens or hundreds of thousands to die. Same goes for BST, and Colin.
Quite happy to reply to your questions, as always, when you answer that.
Realistic solution? Russia should pack up and go home. There is nothing for them to win there.
So you think that proposal will work, interesting. Personally, I doubt that is remotely likely to be accepted by Russia without some significant pay off. Are you thinking it's likely? 80% likely? 20%?
Of course it would work, if Russia pulled out of Ukraine that would be an end to the conflict. A difficult one for the West to induce Putin to do, but certainly possible from within Russia when the people get tired of the body bags returning and the loss of sons, (the Russian media can't suppress those issues forever).
It's impossible to predict the likelihood, but it is certainly a solution that would minimise the bloodshed on both sides.
Given that Ukraine is suffering at least as many deaths as Russia, that's quite a cost. Russia is a long way from suffering a great public backlash. Ukraine has arguably being using tactics that are very expensive in life, whereas Russia tends to use tactics where manpower is protected. Anyway, not sure how it minimises bloodshed given that scenario is not going to happen this side of next spring/Summer.
-
Picture BRR's take in the 1930s.
How can you possibly suggest that we should take a stand against Hitler invading the Sudetenland? There are ethnic German people there. Hitler has a right to push back against encroachment. People will die if there's fighting.
How can you possibly say we should fight to stop Hitler invading Poland? The Poles have some very right wing people in charge. Hitler has a right to re-establish control over Danzig. If we fight, tens of thousands of people will die.
How can you possibly argue that we should take a stand against Hitler invading:
Belgium
Norway
Netherlands
France
Romania
Yugoslavia
Greece
Soviet Union.
The lack of understanding of the lessons of history is breathtaking.
Whatever, BST reading my mind, different times, and done and dusted. Still got no soluton for now?
Go on then. Explain to me why you would have supported Czechoslovakia over the Sudetenland, rather than telling them to suck it up because people would get killed if they resist.
This is about Ukraine. What is your idea for a solution there?
You're doing an excellent job of showing your ignorance of history. There aren't many historians who think giving in to Hitler over the Sudetenland wasn't a catastrophic error. Because imperial dictators don't say "Thanks very much, I'll stop now" when you show weakness to them. If you really can't see the lesson there for the current conflict, no amount of me spelling it out is going to help you.
And of course you miss the real moral issue here. When an independent country has been invaded by a brutal dictatorship, it isn't for someone living in comfort far away to tell them to stop fighting and give in to what the dictator wants. It is for them to decide. And for everyone else in the world to choose which side they are on.
-
Picture BRR's take in the 1930s.
How can you possibly suggest that we should take a stand against Hitler invading the Sudetenland? There are ethnic German people there. Hitler has a right to push back against encroachment. People will die if there's fighting.
How can you possibly say we should fight to stop Hitler invading Poland? The Poles have some very right wing people in charge. Hitler has a right to re-establish control over Danzig. If we fight, tens of thousands of people will die.
How can you possibly argue that we should take a stand against Hitler invading:
Belgium
Norway
Netherlands
France
Romania
Yugoslavia
Greece
Soviet Union.
The lack of understanding of the lessons of history is breathtaking.
Whatever, BST reading my mind, different times, and done and dusted. Still got no soluton for now?
Go on then. Explain to me why you would have supported Czechoslovakia over the Sudetenland, rather than telling them to suck it up because people would get killed if they resist.
This is about Ukraine. What is your idea for a solution there?
You're doing an excellent job of showing your ignorance of history. There aren't many historians who think giving in to Hitler over the Sudetenland wasn't a catastrophic error. Because imperial dictators don't say "Thanks very much, I'll stop now" when you show weakness to them. If you really can't see the lesson there for the current conflict, no amount of me spelling it out is going to help you.
And of course you miss the real moral issue here. When an independent country has been invaded by a brutal dictatorship, it isn't for someone living in comfort far away to tell them to stop fighting and give in to what the dictator wants. It is for them to decide. And for everyone else in the world to choose which side they are on.
Up to them, presumably the Ukraine government, to decide. Which is currently a firm"no deals" and "please give us more weapons, fund our war" directed at the UK and US particularly. Fair enough, so like others here, you're backing the decision to ensure that tens/hundreds of thousands more will die. And you're approving of more hardship, even starvation and death from cold, for millions worldwide, hardship for poorer people, profits for those with investments in fuel, arms and so on.
Interesting pitting that against your passionate covid stance where you were in favour of saving lives and here you're in favour of death.
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Picture BRR's take in the 1930s.
How can you possibly suggest that we should take a stand against Hitler invading the Sudetenland? There are ethnic German people there. Hitler has a right to push back against encroachment. People will die if there's fighting.
How can you possibly say we should fight to stop Hitler invading Poland? The Poles have some very right wing people in charge. Hitler has a right to re-establish control over Danzig. If we fight, tens of thousands of people will die.
How can you possibly argue that we should take a stand against Hitler invading:
Belgium
Norway
Netherlands
France
Romania
Yugoslavia
Greece
Soviet Union.
The lack of understanding of the lessons of history is breathtaking.
Whatever, BST reading my mind, different times, and done and dusted. Still got no soluton for now?
Go on then. Explain to me why you would have supported Czechoslovakia over the Sudetenland, rather than telling them to suck it up because people would get killed if they resist.
This is about Ukraine. What is your idea for a solution there?
You're doing an excellent job of showing your ignorance of history. There aren't many historians who think giving in to Hitler over the Sudetenland wasn't a catastrophic error. Because imperial dictators don't say &quot;Thanks very much, I'll stop now&quot; when you show weakness to them. If you really can't see the lesson there for the current conflict, no amount of me spelling it out is going to help you.
And of course you miss the real moral issue here. When an independent country has been invaded by a brutal dictatorship, it isn't for someone living in comfort far away to tell them to stop fighting and give in to what the dictator wants. It is for them to decide. And for everyone else in the world to choose which side they are on.
Up to them, presumably the Ukraine government, to decide. Which is currently a firm"no deals" and "please give us more weapons, fund our war" directed at the UK and US particularly. Fair enough, so like others here, you're backing the decision to ensure that tens/hundreds of thousands more will die. And you're approving of more hardship, even starvation and death from cold, for millions worldwide, hardship for poorer people, profits for those with investments in fuel, arms and so on.
Interesting pitting that against your passionate covid stance where you were in favour of saving lives and here you're in favour of death.
Thousands would be alive today if Putin had kept within his own Borders, trying to push the blame away from Russia just doesn’t work, too and bottom of this is that Putin has every death on his head, end of, you can push the pro Russian stance you have taken all you like, it’s bullshit and you know it!
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Fuel prices have gone up because Putin has shut off supply.
Food prices have gone up because Putin threatens to sink grain ships leaving Ukraine.
And you say the fault lies with people fighting like f**k to get an evil dictator our of their land, and with the people who support them.
You want fuel prices down? Fuel prices come down immediately if Putin gets the f**k out of Ukraine and opens the taps.
You want food prices down? Food prices come down immediately if Putin gets the f**k out of Ukraine and allows cargo ships safe passage through the Black Sea.
You are an apologist for an utter Kitson.
You are beyond reprehensible. I don't know whether you truly believe the shite you post, or you're simply a WUM, but either way, you're a disgrace.
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Fuel prices have gone up because Putin has shut off supply.
Food prices have gone up because Putin threatens to sink grain ships leaving Ukraine.
And you say the fault lies with people fighting like f**k to get an evil dictator our of their land, and with the people who support them.
You want fuel prices down? Fuel prices come down immediately if Putin gets the f**k out of Ukraine and opens the taps.
You want food prices down? Food prices come down immediately if Putin gets the f**k out of Ukraine and allows cargo ships safe passage through the Black Sea.
You are an apologist for an utter Kitson.
You are beyond reprehensible. I don't know whether you truly believe the shite you post, or you're simply a WUM, but either way, you're a disgrace.
Still unable to answer a simple constructive question. But at least you substitute that with a pile of senseless pompy poop with flourishings of potty mouth. You surpassed yourself there.
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I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.
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I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.
Absolutely.
It's as plain as the nose on your face.
If Putin wins because people think the alternative is too hard to bear, what lesson does he learn from that?
Anyone who thinks the lesson he learns is "Ok, that's done. I won't do it again" is simply not using their brain.
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I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.
On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.
Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.
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I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.
On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.
Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.
Yet, which of those two is currently engaged in a full-blown invasion of an independent sovereign state?
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Like I said, it goes one way or the other, or Ukraine remains a neutral independent state. And then take into account where Ukraine is. Clue, its not between Mexico or Canada and the US, or off the coast of Cuba.
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No-one forces any country to join NATO? They apply of their own free will through democratic processes, both in their own country and then NATO. That is the difference between countries that join NATO and the countries that Putin has installed puppet leaders in.
And if you fall for Putins line of he's only attacking Ukraine because they were considering NATO,
a) you're naive to the extreme
b) it doesn't f*cking matter! You cannot invade another country because you think they are going to join an alliance - from a legal POV it's got f*ck all to do with Putin!
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Putin is ON RECORD, from his own lips, in one of his crazed speeches as saying Ukraine doesn't have any heritage of existence as an independent state outwith Russian control.
These are his precise words, from his own mouth.
"Since time immemorial, the people living in the southwest of what has historically been Russian land have called themselves Russians and Orthodox Christians.
"So, I will start with the fact that modern Ukraine was entirely created by Russia or, to be more precise, by Bolshevik, Communist Russia. This process started practically right after the 1917 revolution, and Lenin and his associates did it in a way that was extremely harsh on Russia — by separating, severing what is historically Russian land."
It's got f**k all to do with Russian security. It's all about a crazed old man trying to assert his domination over a neighbour whose right to independence he doesn't recognise.
Read what he said. And see how many knots you have to tie yourself in to claim that the invasion isn't a blatant imperialist land grab.
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So, you - BST, BobJim, Pie Eater - think the US would be okey dokily with the scenario I suggested? I hasten to add that a couple of missiles in Cuba didn't go down too well, and that's not even adjacent to the US.
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Oh God help us.
Here's BRR, a man who consistently ignores the clear and obvious parallels between Putin and Hitler, now suggesting there's some form of similarity between Ukraine and Cuba.
The lack of self-awareness of your lack of historical grasp is quite something to witness.
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Ha ha
I see the peddler of Putin guff is continuing to peddle
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So, you - BST, BobJim, Pie Eater - think the US would be okey dokily with the scenario I suggested? I hasten to add that a couple of missiles in Cuba didn't go down too well, and that's not even adjacent to the US.
You didn't answer my question, BRR. And I did make it an easy one for you.
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So, you - BST, BobJim, Pie Eater - think the US would be okey dokily with the scenario I suggested? I hasten to add that a couple of missiles in Cuba didn't go down too well, and that's not even adjacent to the US.
You didn't answer my question, BRR. And I did make it an easy one for you.
He never does. He just goes off like a smoke bomb obscuring the point at hand.
I've spent four months trying to get him to accept that he uncritically peddled a Kremlin lie about them lobbing two 6o year old one tonne warheads into a shopping centre and a park in Ukraine. It's as plain a case of deliberate lying as you'll ever find in warfare, but every time I raise it, BRR refuses to engage. Even though he was quick to pass on Kremlin disinformation when it happened.
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Where do you draw the line, BRR? If Russia invaded Romania would you say the best solution would be for Romania to surrender to avoid further deaths? How about Finland? Or Estonia? Or if they nipped across the Black Sea to annex Turkey?
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I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.
Not even that. It sets a precendent for Putin to control the world's fuel and grain prices.
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I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.
On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.
Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.
I can't be bothered to quote the previous threads about appeasement in the 1930's but don't forget, as well as the pro-German fascists saying we shouldn't fight Hitler over 'a faraway land over which we know nothing' there was a pro-Russian lobby in the UK at the time also arguing against 'the west' re-arming and fighting another war in Europe. Whilst denying that there were any gulags, mass murder of rivals and imposed famines by Stalin and the communists.
They were known as 'the enemy within' people whose world view was based on what was best for the Soviet Union/Russia rather than the UK. Because they hoped Russia would prevail in Europe and then change the UK.
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Kyiv Independent doing a online Q&A on 'What the west gets wrong about Ukraine' on Friday evening. I think a few people might benefit from joining in to educate themselves from actual Ukrainians in Ukraine.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1587813495839637505
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I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.
On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.
Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.
Did NATO carry out military manoeuvres on the borders of Estonia, Latvia & Lithuania?
No.
Did NATO deny it intended to invade those countries then did so threatening to use nuclear or biological weapons not only in those countries but should the Russian army put one boot inside those countries to aid them it would lead to an escalation where NATO would use every weapon in its arsenal to defend its position even if that led to WW111?
No.
Did Russia carry out military manoeuvres on the borders of Ukraine?
Did Russia deny it intended to invade Ukraine then did so & as its invasion failed to defeat the Ukraine army & its people fighting to repel the Russian aggressors who sought to engulf their country & make it a state of Russia raping it of its rich wheat fields & resources & when its army stalled & was beaten back losing armoury & soldiers to the extent where it was calling upon murderers, rapists & thieves from its prisons to go to Ukraine to fight alongside mercenaries already there but not content with that, Putin also put in place plans to send its university students & veteran soldiers to prop up his dwindling forces & all in order to save face, his face?
Did Putin threaten to use every weapon in Russia’s arsenal including nuclear & chemical weapons if any NATO country put a boot inside Ukraine in order to fight alongside it?
I’ll let you answer those three either yes or no but I’ll give you a clue. The answer begins with a ‘Y’.
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I see that Vlad isnow visiting junior schools to give brainwashing lectures
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I see that Vlad isnow visiting junior schools to give brainwashing lectures
And if he sees any of them playing soldiers he’ll have them in fatigues & sent off to fight in Ukraine before you can say Kalashnikov.
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I am sitting here, in my study. I have no heat on. It isn't actually freezing, but it is getting a tad nippy. And I am HAPPY to sit here. The poor sods in Kiev and elsewhere are a helluva lot worse off. I would put up with a lot, lot more than this to inconvenience that pustule in the Kremlin.
BobG
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Rumours that Russia is fleeing Kherson. And also concern that it may be a trap to lure the Ukranians in:
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1588103347709558785
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Rumours that Russia is fleeing Kherson. And also concern that it may be a trap to lure the Ukranians in:
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1588103347709558785
Looks likely it'll get obliterated by the Russians one way or another.
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I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.
On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.
Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.
Yes the US have done bad things in the past, but this situation is simple. If you don’t stand up for yourself or your allies, someone will come in and take advantage and exploit you. I’m confident you’d rather live in the US/UK than Russia, no?
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I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.
On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.
Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.
Yes the US have done bad things in the past, but this situation is simple. If you don’t stand up for yourself or your allies, someone will come in and take advantage and exploit you. I’m confident you’d rather live in the US/UK than Russia, no?
He wouldn’t be able to spout things about the Mother nation if he was Russian and lived in Russia, he lucky to have the freedom to talk shit and support the aggressor in the Country
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I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.
On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.
Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.
Yes the US have done bad things in the past, but this situation is simple. If you don’t stand up for yourself or your allies, someone will come in and take advantage and exploit you. I’m confident you’d rather live in the US/UK than Russia, no?
He wouldn’t be able to spout things about the Mother nation if he was Russian and lived in Russia, he lucky to have the freedom to talk shit and support the aggressor in the Country
As we approach Armistice Day, let’s not forget the thousands of army, airforce & civilians who gave their lives so that he & his ilk could have freedom of speech.
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I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.
On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.
Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.
Yes the US have done bad things in the past, but this situation is simple. If you don’t stand up for yourself or your allies, someone will come in and take advantage and exploit you. I’m confident you’d rather live in the US/UK than Russia, no?
He wouldn’t be able to spout things about the Mother nation if he was Russian and lived in Russia, he lucky to have the freedom to talk shit and support the aggressor in the Country
As we approach Armistice Day, let’s not forget the thousands of army, airforce & civilians who gave their lives so that he & his ilk could have freedom of speech.
USSR approx 27,000,000
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I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.
On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.
Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.
Yes the US have done bad things in the past, but this situation is simple. If you don’t stand up for yourself or your allies, someone will come in and take advantage and exploit you. I’m confident you’d rather live in the US/UK than Russia, no?
He wouldn’t be able to spout things about the Mother nation if he was Russian and lived in Russia, he lucky to have the freedom to talk shit and support the aggressor in the Country
As we approach Armistice Day, let’s not forget the thousands of army, airforce & civilians who gave their lives so that he & his ilk could have freedom of speech.
USSR approx 27,000,000
The horrors of the soviet union are not taught enough in schools. Putin is trying to rekindle its expansionism. Then people would understand better.
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I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.
On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.
Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.
Yes the US have done bad things in the past, but this situation is simple. If you don’t stand up for yourself or your allies, someone will come in and take advantage and exploit you. I’m confident you’d rather live in the US/UK than Russia, no?
He wouldn’t be able to spout things about the Mother nation if he was Russian and lived in Russia, he lucky to have the freedom to talk shit and support the aggressor in the Country
As we approach Armistice Day, let’s not forget the thousands of army, airforce & civilians who gave their lives so that he & his ilk could have freedom of speech.
USSR approx 27,000,000
Just stop and reflect on that number for a minute.
Then go and do so research. Find out how many died from self inflicted famine. How many died as cannon fodder thrown into the front line without suitable defensive or offensive equipment.
Then ask yourself why Putin idolises Stalin.
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I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.
On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.
Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.
Yes the US have done bad things in the past, but this situation is simple. If you don’t stand up for yourself or your allies, someone will come in and take advantage and exploit you. I’m confident you’d rather live in the US/UK than Russia, no?
He wouldn’t be able to spout things about the Mother nation if he was Russian and lived in Russia, he lucky to have the freedom to talk shit and support the aggressor in the Country
As we approach Armistice Day, let’s not forget the thousands of army, airforce & civilians who gave their lives so that he & his ilk could have freedom of speech.
USSR approx 27,000,000
Just stop and reflect on that number for a minute.
Then go and do so research. Find out how many died from self inflicted famine. How many died as cannon fodder thrown into the front line without suitable defensive or offensive equipment.
Then ask yourself why Putin idolises Stalin.
And don't forget those that were shot by their own forces when trying to retreat from an impossible position - an order by Stalin I believe.
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Returning and escaping prisoners of the Germans. Those trapped behind the German lines. All sent to the Gulags to die when they got back. Read Solzhenitsyn. Almost any will do. Or Koestler. Lion could do a lot worse than reading both authors to educate himself about how and why so many Russians died.
BobG
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Armistice day - founded on the idea of WW1 troops having given their lives for a worthy cause. What a con that was. For me that day is purely about nasty rich boys conning ordinary people to fight for them. The story is the same now. Yes Hitler was mental and evil. You have to also consider how he came to power, which rich boys fueled that. Yes Putin is using troops for a similar cause, but also so is the US scamming Ukraine, using it for it's proxy war. Yet so many here are in favour of that. Weird.
They are all evil gangsters. And at the end of the day, you get scabs like the Tories who screw ordinary people, is that what people fought for? I don't think so.
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Returning and escaping prisoners of the Germans. Those trapped behind the German lines. All sent to the Gulags to die when they got back. Read Solzhenitsyn. Almost any will do. Or Koestler. Lion could do a lot worse than reading both authors to educate himself about how and why so many Russians died.
BobG
gulag archipeligo?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zz30g8-T8i0 - this is a good interview
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I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.
On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.
Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.
Yes the US have done bad things in the past, but this situation is simple. If you don’t stand up for yourself or your allies, someone will come in and take advantage and exploit you. I’m confident you’d rather live in the US/UK than Russia, no?
He wouldn’t be able to spout things about the Mother nation if he was Russian and lived in Russia, he lucky to have the freedom to talk shit and support the aggressor in the Country
As we approach Armistice Day, let’s not forget the thousands of army, airforce &amp; civilians who gave their lives so that he &amp; his ilk could have freedom of speech.
USSR approx 27,000,000
Just stop and reflect on that number for a minute.
Then go and do so research. Find out how many died from self inflicted famine. How many died as cannon fodder thrown into the front line without suitable defensive or offensive equipment.
Then ask yourself why Putin idolises Stalin.
And don't forget those that were shot by their own forces when trying to retreat from an impossible position - an order by Stalin I believe.
Both Russians and Ukraines have been doing exactly that in this conflict.
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I feel that if we give in to the inconvenience all of this causes then it sets a precedent for Putin to just keep moving west.
On the other hand, Ukraine wins and we have a precedent for NATO/US to keep moving east.
Both power blocks are bad, both support greedy gangsters, both are expansionist though the US one is evidently far far more so.
Yes the US have done bad things in the past, but this situation is simple. If you don’t stand up for yourself or your allies, someone will come in and take advantage and exploit you. I’m confident you’d rather live in the US/UK than Russia, no?
He wouldn’t be able to spout things about the Mother nation if he was Russian and lived in Russia, he lucky to have the freedom to talk shit and support the aggressor in the Country
As we approach Armistice Day, let’s not forget the thousands of army, airforce &amp; civilians who gave their lives so that he &amp; his ilk could have freedom of speech.
USSR approx 27,000,000
Just stop and reflect on that number for a minute.
Then go and do so research. Find out how many died from self inflicted famine. How many died as cannon fodder thrown into the front line without suitable defensive or offensive equipment.
Then ask yourself why Putin idolises Stalin.
And ask yourself why so many Ukraines have idolised the Nazis.
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Armistice day - founded on the idea of WW1 troops having given their lives for a worthy cause. What a con that was. For me that day is purely about nasty rich boys conning ordinary people to fight for them. The story is the same now. Yes Hitler was mental and evil. You have to also consider how he came to power, which rich boys fueled that. Yes Putin is using troops for a similar cause, but also so is the US scamming Ukraine, using it for it's proxy war. Yet so many here are in favour of that. Weird.
They are all evil gangsters. And at the end of the day, you get scabs like the Tories who screw ordinary people, is that what people fought for? I don't think so.
Putin is the richest man in the world with the wealth of the natural resources he stole, and continues to steal through his proxy oligarchs, from the Russian people. He wants Ukraine for THEIR natural resources - and to deny them to anyone else. That's what meglomaniacs do.
You're lack of condemnation of him and his actions is glaring.
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Armistice day - founded on the idea of WW1 troops having given their lives for a worthy cause. What a con that was. For me that day is purely about nasty rich boys conning ordinary people to fight for them. The story is the same now. Yes Hitler was mental and evil. You have to also consider how he came to power, which rich boys fueled that. Yes Putin is using troops for a similar cause, but also so is the US scamming Ukraine, using it for it's proxy war. Yet so many here are in favour of that. Weird.
They are all evil gangsters. And at the end of the day, you get scabs like the Tories who screw ordinary people, is that what people fought for? I don't think so.
Putin is the richest man in the world with the wealth of the natural resources he stole, and continues to steal through his proxy oligarchs, from the Russian people. He wants Ukraine for THEIR natural resources - and to deny them to anyone else. That's what meglomaniacs do.
You're lack of condemnation of him and his actions is glaring.
Hes not te richest man in the world. And as you bring up the issue of mineral rights and land grab, what the heck do you think the US is pouring billions into the country for? Its isn't for the "freedom" of Ukraine's, tho u know you buy that line.
My lack of condemnation of Putin. Are you that blind, as well as that much of a sucker for propaganda that keeps you in your happy subservient place?
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Armistice day - founded on the idea of WW1 troops having given their lives for a worthy cause. What a con that was. For me that day is purely about nasty rich boys conning ordinary people to fight for them. The story is the same now. Yes Hitler was mental and evil. You have to also consider how he came to power, which rich boys fueled that. Yes Putin is using troops for a similar cause, but also so is the US scamming Ukraine, using it for it's proxy war. Yet so many here are in favour of that. Weird.
They are all evil gangsters. And at the end of the day, you get scabs like the Tories who screw ordinary people, is that what people fought for? I don't think so.
Putin is the richest man in the world with the wealth of the natural resources he stole, and continues to steal through his proxy oligarchs, from the Russian people. He wants Ukraine for THEIR natural resources - and to deny them to anyone else. That's what meglomaniacs do.
You're lack of condemnation of him and his actions is glaring.
Hes not te richest man in the world. And as you bring up the issue of mineral rights and land grab, what the heck do you think the US is pouring billions into the country for? Its isn't for the "freedom" of Ukraine's, tho u know you buy that line.
My lack of condemnation of Putin. Are you that blind, as well as that much of a sucker for propaganda that keeps you in your happy subservient place?
No I am not blind, I can read your posts. I suggest you go back and read them for the lack of condemnation/excuse of Putin and his actions - 'There is none so blind as those who won't see'.
Putin gets a percentage of all Russian energy and mineral sales transactions - it's how he funds himself and his cronies and how he allows the oligarchs to stay in power too. He has done for 20 years. Go read Bill Browder's books. I will drop them off for you when I come over to Bristol today if you like.
No-one knows how much he is actually worth - and he isn't telling the Russian people how much he has stolen from them - criminals tend not to. But he is undoutably the richest person in the world - even Elon Musk says so:
https://twitter.com/billbrowder/status/1507853981338505216
https://fortune.com/2022/03/02/vladimir-putin-net-worth-2022/
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/vladimir-putin-richest-man-alive-26870511
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Apologies, hadn't realised Putin's personal wealth. And yes, there's a pack of oligarchs just a bit further down the ladder. Still, however you view the means of how that wealth is accumulated, the story is similar in the west eg in the UK right from those that gained from their Norman ancestors, to those that kissed the royals bottoms, to those who robbed and raped various countries, and those that raped and ribbed ordinary people in this country, to those who benefit from a corrupt system of privaledge. All gangsters if only from past evil and current fixing of the system, rather than the Russian, and Ukraine, current evil.
And, I have criticised Putin many a time, not sure what your problem is with reading and comprehension.
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Because in post 3610 - and many others - you accuse others of heinous acts in pursuit of wealth and power yet deny Putin having done this in February 2022.
Unless you understand this as the motivation for the invasion, along with megalomania, racism and arrogance, then I shall keep reminding you.
Like the Ukranians, people blamed the victims rather than the perpatrators in those other scenarios you quote too btw.
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Apologies, hadn't realised Putin's personal wealth. And yes, there's a pack of oligarchs just a bit further down the ladder. Still, however you view the means of how that wealth is accumulated, the story is similar in the west eg in the UK right from those that gained from their Norman ancestors, to those that kissed the royals bottoms, to those who robbed and raped various countries, and those that raped and ribbed ordinary people in this country, to those who benefit from a corrupt system of privaledge. All gangsters if only from past evil and current fixing of the system, rather than the Russian, and Ukraine, current evil.
And, I have criticised Putin many a time, not sure what your problem is with reading and comprehension.
Another classic of the genre "Yeah Russia's bad, but The West..."
Although bringing William the Conqueror into the argument is an interesting teleological angle.
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I thought you'd like the reference to the olden days :lol:
More of a Russia AND the West, than a BUT. I know you're on the West Cheerleaders team, but there you go, both teams kick the ball.
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BST - the problem with your history lectures is you take a situation with one or two similarities and make out its the same almost identical situation. Effectively rhetorical - by ignorance or intentional? Certainly misleading, for reasons you know too well, unless analysis isn't your thing?
Funnily enough, when I used examples eg Cuba, Mexico, Canada, to illustrate scenarios that were or would be a reverse of the Ukraine war, you couldn't accept them, tho gave no reason why.
And still no flicker of a realistic solution for the current situation.
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And as I said, if you really think there are ANY parallels between Cuba and Ukraine, you know nothing of history.
There is an entirely realistic end to this. Ukraine pushes Russia out of the lands that Russia has invaded. And Putin is overthrown when he's shown to have feet of clay. It's all-but inevitable.
YOU, on the other hand, have never faced up to the consequences of YOUR preferred ending (which is never going to happen).
If Putin is allowed to keep his winnings through threats, what lesson do you think he takes from that?
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Cuba - the point was the proximity of a threat to the US.
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As I said. Zero comparison.
You are really going to need this spelling out, aren't you?
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Fuel prices have gone up because Putin has shut off supply.
Food prices have gone up because Putin threatens to sink grain ships leaving Ukraine.
And you say the fault lies with people fighting like f**k to get an evil dictator our of their land, and with the people who support them.
You want fuel prices down? Fuel prices come down immediately if Putin gets the f**k out of Ukraine and opens the taps.
You want food prices down? Food prices come down immediately if Putin gets the f**k out of Ukraine and allows cargo ships safe passage through the Black Sea.
You are an apologist for an utter Kitson.
You are beyond reprehensible. I don't know whether you truly believe the shite you post, or you're simply a WUM, but either way, you're a disgrace.
I take it you have inside info about the sabotage on Nord Stream? And you approve of the grain that was exported going to the EU? Yes that's not the whole story, definitely part of it.
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As I said. Zero comparison.
You are really going to need this spelling out, aren't you?
Go on then.
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No-one forces any country to join NATO? They apply of their own free will through democratic processes, both in their own country and then NATO. That is the difference between countries that join NATO and the countries that Putin has installed puppet leaders in.
And if you fall for Putins line of he's only attacking Ukraine because they were considering NATO,
a) you're naive to the extreme
b) it doesn't f*cking matter! You cannot invade another country because you think they are going to join an alliance - from a legal POV it's got f*ck all to do with Putin!
No thinking they were, they definitely were.
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As I said. Zero comparison.
You are really going to need this spelling out, aren't you?
Go on then.
If you insist...
The Cuban Missile Crisis was about the attempt by the Soviet Union to place medium range ballistic nuclear missiles a short distance from the USA. These would have been impossible to defend against and would have seriously threatened America in a way that was far more potent than any other threat the USSR possessed.
The solution to that crisis came when America agreed to remove a similar threat to the USSR (Jupiter MRBMs stationed in Turkey) if the USSR removed its missiles in Cuba. There was a strategic solution that was acceptable to both sides.
There is precisely zero comparison with the Ukraine. Even if you accept the fanciful argument that America wants to use Ukraine to station nuclear missiles that could threaten Russia, what would be gained by that? America already has the ability to devastate Russia with a nuclear attack from its own soil, from MRBMs stationed in Western Europe, from submarine-based ballistic missiles and others.
If America wanted to position other missiles close to the Russian border, it could already call on NATO members in the Baltics, in Poland or in Norway.
But it hasn't done.
Because it doesn't need to.
Because it already has massive potential to devastate Russia.
The other, even more stupid argument is that America wants to have Ukraine so it could launch a conventional invasion of Russia. But there is more chance of the sun rising in the west tomorrow than that happening. If it did, Russia has the ability to devastate America with its own nuclear arsenal.
American troops would never place a toe in Russia without risking the loss of New York, Chicago and LA.
Ukraine in 2022 has precisely zero comparison with Cuba in 1962. Arguments that it does are boneheaded attempts to obscure the real point of Putin's invasion - that he is an imperialist who wants to control his near-abroad because it gives the illusion that Russia is still a Great Power.
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Missiles in Ukraine would be impossible to defend against.
US troops in Ukraine would make Russia v uncomfortable, edgy.
The same went for US re Cuba.
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Missiles in Ukraine would be impossible to defend against.
US troops in Ukraine would make Russia v uncomfortable, edgy.
The same went for US re Cuba.
Missiles from the UK, Italy, Germany and Netherlands would be impossible to defend against.
If America wanted to put missiles in Ukraine, why haven't they put them in Estonia.
America could put a million troops in Ukraine and still risk every city at home being destroyed if one of them put a toe end over the border.
You are talking absolute nonsense over this.
I accept that you won't accept that. Because if you did, the entire case you've been remorselessly pushing for months disintegrates.
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Missiles in Ukraine would be impossible to defend against.
US troops in Ukraine would make Russia v uncomfortable, edgy.
The same went for US re Cuba.
Missiles from the UK, Italy, Germany and Netherlands would be impossible to defend against.
If America wanted to put missiles in Ukraine, why haven't they put them in Estonia.
America could put a million troops in Ukraine and still risk every city at home being destroyed if one of them put a toe end over the border.
You are talking absolute nonsense over this.
I accept that you won't accept that. Because if you did, the entire case you've been remorselessly pushing for months disintegrates.
Parts of Russia, including Moscow, are closer from Ukraine.
Just because NATO hasn't used Latvia as a missile base doesn't mean it won't use Ukraine now or in the future. Being closer can mean a lot, esp with hypersonic missiles.
So, anyway, it seems you don't think the US would be bothered with Russian missiles in Cuba, or Chinese missiles in Tijuana or Ottawa. Weird.
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''How Russian soldiers ran a 'cleansing' operation in Bucha''
https://apnews.com/article/bucha-ukraine-war-cleansing-investigation-43e5a9538e9ba68a035756b05028b8b4
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''How Russian soldiers ran a 'cleansing' operation in Bucha''
https://apnews.com/article/bucha-ukraine-war-cleansing-investigation-43e5a9538e9ba68a035756b05028b8b4
Frightening! I wonder if BRR will read it all?
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Utterly horrific reading.
And that's just the events in one area of one town. It's absolutely sickening to think how many civilians must have been tortured and murdered across Ukraine.
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That is a specious argument Bristol. You cannot single out Ukraine as a special case. If Ukraine is a cause of fear for Moscow and military opportunity for western missiles for Washington, then Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Moldova, Sweden, Finland, Britain, Germany and several others fall into the exact same category. There is nothing to distinguish a missile from Kiev from one from any of those other places. None of 'em can be intercepted and none of 'em are far enough away to give any meaningful warning.
You are guilty of special pleading I'm afraid.
Missiles in Ukraine would be impossible to defend against.
US troops in Ukraine would make Russia v uncomfortable, edgy.
The same went for US re Cuba.
Missiles from the UK, Italy, Germany and Netherlands would be impossible to defend against.
If America wanted to put missiles in Ukraine, why haven't they put them in Estonia.
America could put a million troops in Ukraine and still risk every city at home being destroyed if one of them put a toe end over the border.
You are talking absolute nonsense over this.
I accept that you won't accept that. Because if you did, the entire case you've been remorselessly pushing for months disintegrates.
Parts of Russia, including Moscow, are closer from Ukraine.
Just because NATO hasn't used Latvia as a missile base doesn't mean it won't use Ukraine now or in the future. Being closer can mean a lot, esp with hypersonic missiles.
So, anyway, it seems you don't think the US would be bothered with Russian missiles in Cuba, or Chinese missiles in Tijuana or Ottawa. Weird.
BobG
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Missed this over the weekend but a very important contribution to the debate about 'will Russia use nuclear weapons or not?'
“Nuclear weapons must not be used over Ukraine, Chinese President Xi Jinping said on Friday'
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3198505/no-nuclear-weapons-over-ukraine-chinese-president-xi-jinping-says-clear-message-russia
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Seems BRR has one
credible supporter....
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/L1YNmeJoGBw
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Every time I start thinking that himan development from benighted ignorance is amazing...
...I remember that Katie Hopkins exists.
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Missed this over the weekend but a very important contribution to the debate about 'will Russia use nuclear weapons or not?'
“Nuclear weapons must not be used over Ukraine, Chinese President Xi Jinping said on Friday'
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy/article/3198505/no-nuclear-weapons-over-ukraine-chinese-president-xi-jinping-says-clear-message-russia
That is a very important intervention by Xi. That's putting Putin back in his box.
Coincidentally, there are recent analyses that the Kremlin has massively wound in the nuclear threats over the past couple of weeks.
Remember a month ago when folk were screaming "Ukraine has to give in or...nuclear war!"
Come on down, Dominic Cummings.
Come on down Elon Musk.
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It's strange how all the people who were bleating about the alleged amount of Covid deaths in the UK are more than happy for British pensioners to freeze to death just to prove a point on the international stage. It is the duty of the British Government to put the lives of it's own people first.
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Sorry have I missed something?
How many British pensioners have frozen to death & where was this reported?
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And where has anyone in here said they'd be happy with that outcome?
And since when did protecting a nation against a fascist aggressor equate to "making a point"? Other than inside the head of our resident fascist who is on record as having suggested that we were wrong to take on Hitler in 1939.
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Sorry have I missed something?
How many British pensioners have frozen to death & where was this reported?
They will. it's coming as the weather gets colder.
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Ah. You are prescient then Axholme. Bow down all ye! The future is as crystal. Forsooth our Lord is amongst us.
BobG
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It's strange how all the people who were bleating about the alleged amount of Covid deaths in the UK are more than happy for British pensioners to freeze to death just to prove a point on the international stage. It is the duty of the British Government to put the lives of it's own people first.
It's also strange how people who thought we should not protect the old and vulnerable during covid 'because they are going to die anyway' have suddenly developed a conscience due to where 4% of UK gas supplies come from and when energy comapines and making £billions due to their excessive pricing & profiteering.
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There is no excuse for any old person dying of cold in this country. If that happens, we have failed in our duty to them. That's a matter for Govt to attend to, making sure they are sufficiently catered for.
AL is a Putin fanboy. He wants a fascist aggressor to destroy an independent country, because that's the world he wants to live in. I genuinely thought we'd never see people with that political outlook ever dare show their views in public again after WWII, but here we are. People in the UK. Proud to be fascists.
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Russia withdrawing from Kherson...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63573387
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Russia withdrawing from Kherson...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63573387
This probably means that Russia will deploy even more long range missiles to knock out as much key infrastructure in the major cities as they can.
bas**rds.
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Russia withdrawing from Kherson...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63573387
This probably means that Russia will deploy even more long range missiles to knock out as much key infrastructure in the major cities as they can.
bas**rds.
Reportedly, they don't have that many left.
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A general or two will no doubt go missing over this, or just happen to fall off a sixth floor balcony.
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Or killed in a car accident similar to the one Stremousov (deputy head of Kherson & installed by Putin) was?
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I can understand militarily why russias troops are retreating back over the Dniepro.
But their plan has a flaw. Get them Himars up near Kherson and fire everything you have at every square kilometre just the other side of the river.
Their defensive stance will be their weakness. Sitting ducks.
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Just been watching the BBC documentary Mariupol: The Peoples Story............ it's a hard watch and I don't mind saying there were a few gulps and my eyes watered.... however, I recommend people watch and absorb some of the atrocities that Putin has committed....
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I think this mindset has been slowly changing with body bags returning .....
''Grieving Russians can't believe talk of war crimes in Ukraine''
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-61073897
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I’m not a betting man (a small fib in this context) but given the continued Russian military fall backs from Ukraine & Ukraine’s seemingly ‘take back’ of Kherson, Putins ‘military manoeuvres’ & subsequent invasion of that region appears at best to have been ill advised.
No doubt military Generals heads ‘will roll’ before the inevitable will happen.
Putin will now look to ‘make his mark on history’ given his dwindling authority & days in which to make such a mark on history dwindle.
I believe he as a man & as an authoritive figure on world events ‘died’ on the battlefields of Ukraine.
‘His Generals’ will see to that.
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The Russian stooge on this thread appears to have emulated the Russian army and withdrawn
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I guess all his time is taken up with trying to find ANY media outlet who can make it look like anything other than a gross humiliation for Putin.
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This is massive. Ukranian forces have played this brilliantly (if horrifically for the Russians). No storming of the city. Just a brutal attritional attack on Russian logistics, until the Russians lost the ability to stay as a fighting force.
Winning Kherson back is a huge psychological win before winter sets in. That, combined with Xi smacking down Putin's bluster about nukes is starting to put Putin in the box where he belongs.
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Add to that the Russians knocking down the one remaining bridge from Kherson across the river it's as good as telling everyone they're know they can't defend on equal terms the territory they still hold.
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The civilian population that apparently voted nearly 100% to be Russian coming onto the streets in joy welcoming the Ukrainians
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I wonder despite what Zelensky has said, whether pressure may now come to call a halt from NATO. If Putin now accepts that he can't take the whole of Ukraine and settles for the regions that "voted" to rejoin Russia then possibly the end game could be insight. China has called his bluff on nukes, his Generals are going to get all the blame, but he can still claim his special exercises have been a success. Just an optimistic thought
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I wonder despite what Zelensky has said, whether pressure may now come to call a halt from NATO. If Putin now accepts that he can't take the whole of Ukraine and settles for the regions that "voted" to rejoin Russia then possibly the end game could be insight. China has called his bluff on nukes, his Generals are going to get all the blame, but he can still claim his special exercises have been a success. Just an optimistic thought
Not a chance. Kherson "voted" to join Russia. Look at the celebrations there tonight.
If Ukraine is still prepared to fight, Putin cannot and must not be allowed out if this with an inch of the land he has stolen.
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Absolutely stunning victory for the Ukraine to retake Kherson in every way thinkable.
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I wonder despite what Zelensky has said, whether pressure may now come to call a halt from NATO. If Putin now accepts that he can't take the whole of Ukraine and settles for the regions that "voted" to rejoin Russia then possibly the end game could be insight. China has called his bluff on nukes, his Generals are going to get all the blame, but he can still claim his special exercises have been a success. Just an optimistic thought
Nothing wrong with being optimistic Raven.
Although history tells us that Putin never accepts he is beaten. What he does is commit greater atrocities against civilians until things turn his way.
As I have said many times, Russian leaders are rarely defeated on the battlefield. They are overthrown by their own people once they get tired of fighting.
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I can’t help but reflect again on Putin’s book where he recalls chasing rats through the stairwells of his tenement block with a big stick.
For those of you who are not familiar with the ‘story’, he found himself alone chasing a particularly large rat, they are termed ‘dog rats’. They are male & solitary having ‘served’ many females of their species. Their only ‘commitment to life’ is survival. Putin cornered the rat & it turned to face him. Now realising he was alone his bravado turned to ‘fear’, in his book he terms it as ‘he against the rat’.
The rat jumps at him & scratches his shoulder as it escapes.
The episode is clearly not lost on him as he refers to the incident in quite a profound manner. However his perception of its ‘meaning’ may yet come back to haunt him as Ukraine becomes the ‘cornered rat’ that turned & jumped at him.
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That is a specious argument Bristol. You cannot single out Ukraine as a special case. If Ukraine is a cause of fear for Moscow and military opportunity for western missiles for Washington, then Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Moldova, Sweden, Finland, Britain, Germany and several others fall into the exact same category. There is nothing to distinguish a missile from Kiev from one from any of those other places. None of 'em can be intercepted and none of 'em are far enough away to give any meaningful warning.
You are guilty of special pleading I'm afraid.
Missiles in Ukraine would be impossible to defend against.
US troops in Ukraine would make Russia v uncomfortable, edgy.
The same went for US re Cuba.
Missiles from the UK, Italy, Germany and Netherlands would be impossible to defend against.
If America wanted to put missiles in Ukraine, why haven't they put them in Estonia.
America could put a million troops in Ukraine and still risk every city at home being destroyed if one of them put a toe end over the border.
You are talking absolute nonsense over this.
I accept that you won't accept that. Because if you did, the entire case you've been remorselessly pushing for months disintegrates.
Parts of Russia, including Moscow, are closer from Ukraine.
Just because NATO hasn't used Latvia as a missile base doesn't mean it won't use Ukraine now or in the future. Being closer can mean a lot, esp with hypersonic missiles.
So, anyway, it seems you don't think the US would be bothered with Russian missiles in Cuba, or Chinese missiles in Tijuana or Ottawa. Weird.
BobG
Ukraine is closer, or do you think that doesn't matter?
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That is a specious argument Bristol. You cannot single out Ukraine as a special case. If Ukraine is a cause of fear for Moscow and military opportunity for western missiles for Washington, then Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Hungary, Moldova, Sweden, Finland, Britain, Germany and several others fall into the exact same category. There is nothing to distinguish a missile from Kiev from one from any of those other places. None of 'em can be intercepted and none of 'em are far enough away to give any meaningful warning.
You are guilty of special pleading I'm afraid.
Missiles in Ukraine would be impossible to defend against.
US troops in Ukraine would make Russia v uncomfortable, edgy.
The same went for US re Cuba.
Missiles from the UK, Italy, Germany and Netherlands would be impossible to defend against.
If America wanted to put missiles in Ukraine, why haven't they put them in Estonia.
America could put a million troops in Ukraine and still risk every city at home being destroyed if one of them put a toe end over the border.
You are talking absolute nonsense over this.
I accept that you won't accept that. Because if you did, the entire case you've been remorselessly pushing for months disintegrates.
Parts of Russia, including Moscow, are closer from Ukraine.
Just because NATO hasn't used Latvia as a missile base doesn't mean it won't use Ukraine now or in the future. Being closer can mean a lot, esp with hypersonic missiles.
So, anyway, it seems you don't think the US would be bothered with Russian missiles in Cuba, or Chinese missiles in Tijuana or Ottawa. Weird.
BobG
Ukraine is closer, or do you think that doesn't matter? Sorry have I missed something?
How many British pensioners have frozen to death & where was this reported?
This winter coming. Are you unaware of the cold that comes with winter?
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''How Russian soldiers ran a 'cleansing' operation in Bucha''
https://apnews.com/article/bucha-ukraine-war-cleansing-investigation-43e5a9538e9ba68a035756b05028b8b4
Frightening! I wonder if BRR will read it all?
Yup I did. Terrible incident if that happened as told. There are questions around some of the bodies used being placed by Ukraines. That said, there's no doubt about some of the incidents.
You also have to place all this in context when talking of war crimes. I don't doubt that there are serious crimes here, however Russia, the US, UK especially, and other NATO, EU countries are all engaged in a geo political Al game, and it is a game, that has caused the deaths of over 100k civilians and military. That is the biggest crime. Falling for the blatent specific incidents over and above the bigger picture is exactly what they want you to do. You then become guilty too.
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Remind me who has killed/murdered the most civilians
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Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?
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Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?
None of which would have happened if Russia had not illegally annexed parts of Ukraine or illegally invaded Ukraine.
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Just been watching the BBC documentary Mariupol: The Peoples Story............ it's a hard watch and I don't mind saying there were a few gulps and my eyes watered.... however, I recommend people watch and absorb some of the atrocities that Putin has committed....
Any mention of Azov atrocities? Murders and human shields, many maltreated, starved, refused medication, and even straight killed. Plus their shelling and destruction of infrastructure. Oh, right, you said BBC.
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Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?
None of which would have happened if Russia had not illegally annexed parts of Ukraine or illegally invaded Ukraine.
That makes it okay then?
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The civilian population that apparently voted nearly 100% to be Russian coming onto the streets in joy welcoming the Ukrainians
Except most were evacuated.
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I wonder despite what Zelensky has said, whether pressure may now come to call a halt from NATO. If Putin now accepts that he can't take the whole of Ukraine and settles for the regions that &quot;voted&quot; to rejoin Russia then possibly the end game could be insight. China has called his bluff on nukes, his Generals are going to get all the blame, but he can still claim his special exercises have been a success. Just an optimistic thought
Not a chance. Kherson "voted" to join Russia. Look at the celebrations there tonight.
If Ukraine is still prepared to fight, Putin cannot and must not be allowed out if this with an inch of the land he has stolen.
Boris Johnson in dishuise? I know you go by the bees, but that's just a bit too dim a view.
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It's worth noting how no HIMARS were used against the twenty thousand or so Russians crossing the river in Kherson, even managed to take back broken armour.
Its also been suggested that HIMARS use is not only dependant on US authorisation (no doubt on that), but is actually manned by US troops. So the US didn't allow the HIMARS targeting of Russians. If so, then what was the full deal between Russia and the US? Is it limited to Kherson, or is there some end game deal fermenting?
Given Ukraine had around 100k troops on the Kherson front, and Russia had about 20 to 30k, it has to be questioned why a heavily outnumbered Russia was allowed free withdrawal like this.
It doesn't seem Zelensky had or has any say in all this. Just how much of a puppet is he?
There's no current change on all other fronts bar Russians gaining a bit more in Donetsk.
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I did wonder when the Russian MoD propaganda-induced constipation would finally break down.
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It's worth noting how no HIMARS were used against the twenty thousand or so Russians crossing the river in Kherson, even managed to take back broken armour.
Its also been suggested that HIMARS use is not only dependant on US authorisation (no doubt on that), but is actually manned by US troops. So the US didn't allow the HIMARS targeting of Russians. If so, then what was the full deal between Russia and the US? Is it limited to Kherson, or is there some end game deal fermenting?
Given Ukraine had around 100k troops on the Kherson front, and Russia had about 20 to 30k, it has to be questioned why a heavily outnumbered Russia was allowed free withdrawal like this.
It doesn't seem Zelensky had or has any say in all this. Just how much of a puppet is he?
There's no current change on all other fronts bar Russians gaining a bit more in Donetsk.
Geobbels would be proud of you
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I love it when BRR uses "it has been suggested". When we all know he means "Russian MoD says..." but he can't bring himself to say it.
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It's worth noting how no HIMARS were used against the twenty thousand or so Russians crossing the river in Kherson, even managed to take back broken armour.
Its also been suggested that HIMARS use is not only dependant on US authorisation (no doubt on that), but is actually manned by US troops. So the US didn't allow the HIMARS targeting of Russians. If so, then what was the full deal between Russia and the US? Is it limited to Kherson, or is there some end game deal fermenting?
Given Ukraine had around 100k troops on the Kherson front, and Russia had about 20 to 30k, it has to be questioned why a heavily outnumbered Russia was allowed free withdrawal like this.
It doesn't seem Zelensky had or has any say in all this. Just how much of a puppet is he?
There's no current change on all other fronts bar Russians gaining a bit more in Donetsk.
Geobbels would be proud of you
With your lack of critique I think it's you who're the sucker for propaganda. Though if you have anything to pass on please do - beyond blatent BBC propaganda, written Goebels cousin, fact.
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I love it when BRR uses "it has been suggested". When we all know he means "Russian MoD says..." but he can't bring himself to say it.
Proving your lack of critical reading, indeed reading at all, but speed of rhetorical nonsense. Same old...
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BRR
All you have to do is show us the links where "it's been suggested". You must have read them, so why not share them? Then we can make up our own minds whether to trust them.
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Various you tube commentators for one - if you had interest you'd know them. Also twitter. All proven to be accurate over the course of the conflict. Unlike your BBC luvvies who report on one side, steered by Ukraine Mod, and US reports. Yet you swallow them endlessly.
YouTube go see weeb union, new world econ, military summary, theti mapping.
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Anyway BST, cut to the chase. Are you saying all I said was crap in that post, or do you agree with some, is some interesting? Chat, discuss perhaps, give some of your opinion based on this conflict not one from the olden days, take into account global politics, US, CHINA, Russia, Brazil, EU etc. Who is playing who, who is more desperate, who is expanding, who is shrinking, who is duping who. Just quit with the very tiresome microscopic attention deficit view pushed by the BBC and their fellow establishment mouthpieces.
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I'm saying you have numerous times repeated flat out lies straight from the Russian MoD. You've never reflected on that and never retracted those posts or apologised. You just rinse and repeat.
It would be farcical if the context wasn't so tragic.
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Anyway BST, cut to the chase. Are you saying all I said was crap in that post, or do you agree with some, is some interesting? Chat, discuss perhaps, give some of your opinion based on this conflict not one from the olden days, take into account global politics, US, CHINA, Russia, Brazil, EU etc. Who is playing who, who is more desperate, who is expanding, who is shrinking, who is duping who. Just quit with the very tiresome microscopic attention deficit view pushed by the BBC and their fellow establishment mouthpieces.
No idea what BST thinks but yup - right old load of b*llocks.
Ukraine's tactic is to use the HIMARS to hit supply lines, logistic sites and ammo dumps thus making it impossible for Russia to hold ground. Russia's is to kill as many people as possible. I have been telling you this for weeks - that's why there has been no big set piece battle anywhere in the Ukrainian advance - and why it has been so successful.
Funny how none of your youtube friends appears to be in Ukraine.
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The civilian population that apparently voted nearly 100% to be Russian coming onto the streets in joy welcoming the Ukrainians
Except most were evacuated.
LOL
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Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?
None of which would have happened if Russia had not illegally annexed parts of Ukraine or illegally invaded Ukraine.
That makes it okay then?
No, it makes it a result of an illegal invasion. Something that you seem to gloss over whenever you try to defend this Russian invasion of a sovereign country.
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Seems Russia are now withdrawing from the south side of the river too. This will obvs raise fears they won't stop until they breach the dam and flood the Kherson region.
Also early signs from aerial photography they are moving equipment and ships out of Crimea .
One wonders whether there's a potential trade off if Ukraine can get Crimea back whilst allowing Russia to stay in Donesk and Luhansk?
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''How Russian soldiers ran a 'cleansing' operation in Bucha''
https://apnews.com/article/bucha-ukraine-war-cleansing-investigation-43e5a9538e9ba68a035756b05028b8b4
Frightening! I wonder if BRR will read it all?
Yup I did. Terrible incident if that happened as told. There are questions around some of the bodies used being placed by Ukraines. That said, there's no doubt about some of the incidents.
You also have to place all this in context when talking of war crimes. I don't doubt that there are serious crimes here, however Russia, the US, UK especially, and other NATO, EU countries are all engaged in a geo political Al game, and it is a game, that has caused the deaths of over 100k civilians and military. That is the biggest crime. Falling for the blatent specific incidents over and above the bigger picture is exactly what they want you to do. You then become guilty too.
Thank you for taking the time to read it, though you seem to doubt it happened as told - yet there is no evidence to the contrary that I can see.
I'm saddened that you see this as some sort of AI game. It isn't. It is clearly a war, instigated by Putin who is totally responsible for every single death and atrocity that has taken place under his direction. Because of this I can clearly see the wider picture and if I am guilty of calling that out then I'm happy to be called so.
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Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?
As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?
-
Here's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.
What happens then?
History doesn't stop.
Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.
I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.
But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?
-
I'm saying you have numerous times repeated flat out lies straight from the Russian MoD. You've never reflected on that and never retracted those posts or apologised. You just rinse and repeat.
It would be farcical if the context wasn't so tragic.
Vague
-
Anyway BST, cut to the chase. Are you saying all I said was crap in that post, or do you agree with some, is some interesting? Chat, discuss perhaps, give some of your opinion based on this conflict not one from the olden days, take into account global politics, US, CHINA, Russia, Brazil, EU etc. Who is playing who, who is more desperate, who is expanding, who is shrinking, who is duping who. Just quit with the very tiresome microscopic attention deficit view pushed by the BBC and their fellow establishment mouthpieces.
No idea what BST thinks but yup - right old load of b*llocks.
Ukraine's tactic is to use the HIMARS to hit supply lines, logistic sites and ammo dumps thus making it impossible for Russia to hold ground. Russia's is to kill as many people as possible. I have been telling you this for weeks - that's why there has been no big set piece battle anywhere in the Ukrainian advance - and why it has been so successful.
Funny how none of your youtube friends appears to be in Ukraine.
Ukraine not shelling Donetsk. Not using human shields. Yeah right... just using HIMARS on ammo. Well they didn't use them on retreating Russians when it would have been easy to knock out 10k troops and hundreds of tanks etc.
-
The civilian population that apparently voted nearly 100% to be Russian coming onto the streets in joy welcoming the Ukrainians
Except most were evacuated.
LOL
You think not?
-
Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?
As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?
Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion.
-
Here's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.
What happens then?
History doesn't stop.
Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.
I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.
But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?
I agree, tho realistically, Russia isn't going anywhere bar Ukraine. And that scenario was stirred by the US. You have to ask why. One reason being suggested is that the US is wanting to reduce the power and wealth of its competitors and increase its wealth and influence.
Re Russia, that's obvious. Ukraine is merely a pawn in that. V surprised that you can't see that.
The less discussed aspect is the EU. The war has severely affectedthe EU, and Europe in general. The taking out of the gas pipeline has exacerbated this, as well as being an attempt, failed, to reduce Russian income. The US is making money selling expensive gas to Europe. Europe is now more expensive to produce goods, hence the US will increase its industry. Clearly a desired effect for the US.
-
Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?
As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?
Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion.
Can't bring yourself to do it, shame
-
Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?
As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?
Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion.
Can't bring yourself to do it, shame
So you don't know either. Fog of war eh!
-
Here's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.
What happens then?
History doesn't stop.
Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.
I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.
But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?
I agree, tho realistically, Russia isn't going anywhere bar Ukraine.
And Transnistria?
And the Baltics?
And Finland?
Poland?
Georgia?
Azerbaijan?
Shall I go on?
A less intelligent person than you could be forgiven for not understanding Putin's imperial expansionism. With you, it feels more like choosing to ignore it because it doesn't fit what you want to be true.
-
Here's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.
What happens then?
History doesn't stop.
Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.
I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.
But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?
I agree, tho realistically, Russia isn't going anywhere bar Ukraine. And that scenario was stirred by the US. You have to ask why. One reason being suggested is that the US is wanting to reduce the power and wealth of its competitors and increase its wealth and influence.
Re Russia, that's obvious. Ukraine is merely a pawn in that. V surprised that you can't see that.
The less discussed aspect is the EU. The war has severely affectedthe EU, and Europe in general. The taking out of the gas pipeline has exacerbated this, as well as being an attempt, failed, to reduce Russian income. The US is making money selling expensive gas to Europe. Europe is now more expensive to produce goods, hence the US will increase its industry. Clearly a desired effect for the US.
Rubbish - and victim blaming.
Russian expansionism was stirred by Putin wanting to recreate the Soviet Union and emulate Peter the Great. And excused by the type of people who refused to believe Stalin created gulags and repressing the Hungarian uprising was necessary.
-
When this war finally ends, which it will; there needs to be some serious repercussions.
I doubt even BRR would try to defend this….
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2022/11/13/7376139/
-
''US to buy South Korean howitzer rounds to send to Ukraine''
''......... Other defense officials confirmed the broad outlines of the contract and said it would help with stockpile pressures, specifically involving the howitzer ammunition, which Ukrainian forces have been using at a high rate. Last week a defense official briefing reporters said Ukraine was burning through as many as 7,000 rounds of ammunition a day, while Russia was firing as much as 20,000 rounds daily .........''
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-europe-business-south-korea-government-and-politics-15569a7bfdb6c53404cfce5f0df1c28f
-
Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?
As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?
Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion.
Can't bring yourself to do it, shame
So you don't know either. Fog of war eh!
The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 6,490 civilian deaths during Russia's invasion of Ukraine as of November 6, 2022. Of them, 403 were children ...... mmm
I'll let you prove I'm wrong from your sources
-
Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?
As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?
Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion.
Can't bring yourself to do it, shame
So you don't know either. Fog of war eh!
The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 6,490 civilian deaths during Russia's invasion of Ukraine as of November 6, 2022. Of them, 403 were children ...... mmm
I'll let you prove I'm wrong from your sources
I fear you're wasting your time. BRR doesn't trust the UN. He DOES uncritically trust lies spewed out by the Russian MoD though. Strange, but there you go...
-
The civilian population that apparently voted nearly 100% to be Russian coming onto the streets in joy welcoming the Ukrainians
Except most were evacuated.
LOL
You think not?
No I don’t, I think it was a rigged vote
-
Here's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.
What happens then?
History doesn't stop.
Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.
I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.
But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?
I agree, tho realistically, Russia isn't going anywhere bar Ukraine.
And Transnistria?
And the Baltics?
And Finland?
Poland?
Georgia?
Azerbaijan?
Shall I go on?
A less intelligent person than you could be forgiven for not understanding Putin's imperial expansionism. With you, it feels more like choosing to ignore it because it doesn't fit what you want to be true.
Transnistria is as good as Russian. Also would be surprising if Russia doesn't take land including Odessa up to there. The rest is safe as far as can be seen. But US propaganda will of course push your fear.
-
Here's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.
What happens then?
History doesn't stop.
Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.
I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.
But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?
I agree, tho realistically, Russia isn't going anywhere bar Ukraine. And that scenario was stirred by the US. You have to ask why. One reason being suggested is that the US is wanting to reduce the power and wealth of its competitors and increase its wealth and influence.
Re Russia, that's obvious. Ukraine is merely a pawn in that. V surprised that you can't see that.
The less discussed aspect is the EU. The war has severely affectedthe EU, and Europe in general. The taking out of the gas pipeline has exacerbated this, as well as being an attempt, failed, to reduce Russian income. The US is making money selling expensive gas to Europe. Europe is now more expensive to produce goods, hence the US will increase its industry. Clearly a desired effect for the US.
Rubbish - and victim blaming.
Russian expansionism was stirred by Putin wanting to recreate the Soviet Union and emulate Peter the Great. And excused by the type of people who refused to believe Stalin created gulags and repressing the Hungarian uprising was necessary.
Open your eyes. Even if there is some truth in what you say, and I personally can see some of that as Russians motive though realistically, that doesn't fit with what will happen. You fell differently, I see that. What I find strange is your stark denial of US motives and ambitions, especially as its power is undeniably shrinking, or at least under pressure.
-
Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?
As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?
Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion.
Can't bring yourself to do it, shame
So you don't know either. Fog of war eh!
The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 6,490 civilian deaths during Russia's invasion of Ukraine as of November 6, 2022. Of them, 403 were children ...... mmm
I'll let you prove I'm wrong from your sources
Killed by who?
-
Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?
As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?
Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion.
Can't bring yourself to do it, shame
So you don't know either. Fog of war eh!
The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 6,490 civilian deaths during Russia's invasion of Ukraine as of November 6, 2022. Of them, 403 were children ...... mmm
I'll let you prove I'm wrong from your sources
I fear you're wasting your time. BRR doesn't trust the UN. He DOES uncritically trust lies spewed out by the Russian MoD though. Strange, but there you go...
Ha, not true. Though it's obvious you regurgitate Zelensky, Biden, their MoDs, their prescribed version of events.
-
The civilian population that apparently voted nearly 100% to be Russian coming onto the streets in joy welcoming the Ukrainians
Except most were evacuated.
LOL
You think not?
No I don’t, I think it was a rigged vote
Probably, but we're talking evacuation, not vote.
-
Why are the Baltic States less at risk than Ukraine?
Why is Georgia not at risk, given Putin has already invaded once?
Why is Poland not at risk when there is the Kaliningrad enclave as an ongoing issue?
Transnistria is not "as good as Russian". It is a part of a sovereign state that is not Russia. (Your nonsense about Russia taking it and Odessa is funny, mind. Have you been living under a rock for the past week? After fleeing over the Dneister, there's more chance of Russia invading Cleethorpes than taking Odessa anytime soon.)
Are you really trying to claim that if Ukraine rolls over and let's Putin have them as a vassal state, that's the end of his imperialist expansion?
Really?
-
Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?
As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?
Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion.
Can't bring yourself to do it, shame
So you don't know either. Fog of war eh!
The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 6,490 civilian deaths during Russia's invasion of Ukraine as of November 6, 2022. Of them, 403 were children ...... mmm
I'll let you prove I'm wrong from your sources
I fear you're wasting your time. BRR doesn't trust the UN. He DOES uncritically trust lies spewed out by the Russian MoD though. Strange, but there you go...
Ha, not true. Though it's obvious you regurgitate Zelensky, Biden, their MoDs, their prescribed version of events.
I've got a line on BRR Bingo.
Again.
Instead of trotting out the same guff every time, do you want to quote me anything I've said that is regurgitation of what Zelensky or Bisen have said?
I'm guessing you have plenty of examples, given how often you've used that line. Off you toddle and find some.
-
Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?
As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?
Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion.
Can't bring yourself to do it, shame
So you don't know either. Fog of war eh!
The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 6,490 civilian deaths during Russia's invasion of Ukraine as of November 6, 2022. Of them, 403 were children ...... mmm
I'll let you prove I'm wrong from your sources
Killed by who?
I'm going to have a wild guess at Russia, over to you
-
Here's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.
What happens then?
History doesn't stop.
Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.
I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.
But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?
I agree, tho realistically, Russia isn't going anywhere bar Ukraine.
And Transnistria?
And the Baltics?
And Finland?
Poland?
Georgia?
Azerbaijan?
Shall I go on?
A less intelligent person than you could be forgiven for not understanding Putin's imperial expansionism. With you, it feels more like choosing to ignore it because it doesn't fit what you want to be true.
BRR look in to South Ossetia in Georgia. It’s basically Russian-run after the invasion last decade. Russia will now micromanage all the information that reaches the people of that “state”.
Perhaps countries like Georgia join NATO out of self-defence?
-
Here's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.
What happens then?
History doesn't stop.
Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.
I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.
But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?
I agree, tho realistically, Russia isn't going anywhere bar Ukraine. And that scenario was stirred by the US. You have to ask why. One reason being suggested is that the US is wanting to reduce the power and wealth of its competitors and increase its wealth and influence.
Re Russia, that's obvious. Ukraine is merely a pawn in that. V surprised that you can't see that.
The less discussed aspect is the EU. The war has severely affectedthe EU, and Europe in general. The taking out of the gas pipeline has exacerbated this, as well as being an attempt, failed, to reduce Russian income. The US is making money selling expensive gas to Europe. Europe is now more expensive to produce goods, hence the US will increase its industry. Clearly a desired effect for the US.
Rubbish - and victim blaming.
Russian expansionism was stirred by Putin wanting to recreate the Soviet Union and emulate Peter the Great. And excused by the type of people who refused to believe Stalin created gulags and repressing the Hungarian uprising was necessary.
Open your eyes. Even if there is some truth in what you say, and I personally can see some of that as Russians motive though realistically, that doesn't fit with what will happen. You fell differently, I see that. What I find strange is your stark denial of US motives and ambitions, especially as its power is undeniably shrinking, or at least under pressure.
Open yours.
Russia illegally invaded a sovereign independent country, twice, due to the richest man in the world wanting to expand his empire and erradicate a country he doesn't believe should exisit (not what I think - but what Putin has said) and all you can do is talk about the US.
Open your eyes.
-
2 Russian missiles have apparently landed in Poland killing two.
-
Just about to post the same Mush. Emergency NATO meeting called.
-
Ruskies will say a) made up by West or b) False flag op by Ukraine to try to get NATO involved
-
There are currently 4 Typhoons and a stratotanker patrolling the East Coast of the UK, along with a Hercules
-
Apologies not NATO (yet). G20 leaders and Polish Security Council meeting.
-
I think it very likely NATO HQ will be very busy right now, and a number of national MOD’s
-
Drag Lavrov out of the G20 and string him up at the nearest petrol station forecourt
-
Wouldn't surprise me if the stray? missile strike on Poland came from Belarus territory.
-
Thoughts it might have been a Russian cruise missile intercepted & shot down by Ukranian anti-aircraft missile over Ukraine - with debris falling on Poland:
https://twitter.com/CalibreObscura/status/1592593028220620802
-
Denied by Russia, well there's a turn up for the book who would have thought it
It appears there is a training camp in Ukraine in that region which has been attacked previously, speculation that was the target.
It would also seem that intelligence will be able to ascertain where the missile came from
-
FTX distraction.
-
Thoughts it might have been a Russian cruise missile intercepted & shot down by Ukranian anti-aircraft missile over Ukraine - with debris falling on Poland:
https://twitter.com/CalibreObscura/status/1592593028220620802
That would be a convenient explanation.
-
FTX distraction.
What do you mean?
-
FTX distraction.
What do you mean?
Look over there while we clean up the laundromat.
-
Nudga's morphed into Father Calvin Robinson.
-
Suppose it's better than the David icke "banter" you dished out before.
-
It's equally dumb. Just a stream of batshit far-right b*llocks.
-
FTX distraction.
It’s like a UFO mush but with that ‘unknown’ X factor.
I’ll send you the blueprints in a PM if you promise not to show the neighbours?
What do you mean?
-
Dominic Cummings tonight retweeting the same batshit FTX/Poland meme from a conspiracy theorist.
You're in good company Nudga.
-
Why are the Baltic States less at risk than Ukraine?
Why is Georgia not at risk, given Putin has already invaded once?
Why is Poland not at risk when there is the Kaliningrad enclave as an ongoing issue?
Transnistria is not "as good as Russian". It is a part of a sovereign state that is not Russia. (Your nonsense about Russia taking it and Odessa is funny, mind. Have you been living under a rock for the past week? After fleeing over the Dneister, there's more chance of Russia invading Cleethorpes than taking Odessa anytime soon.)
Are you really trying to claim that if Ukraine rolls over and let's Putin have them as a vassal state, that's the end of his imperialist expansion?
Really?
I think Georgia is the only one there at risk.
Baltic are NATO, Poland too.
Kallingrad - check your geog, it's Lithuania. Though if Belarus falls to US/EU imperialism, Latvia too. Though already said re Baltic.
Cleethorpes should be given up.
-
Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?
As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?
Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion.
Can't bring yourself to do it, shame
So you don't know either. Fog of war eh!
The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 6,490 civilian deaths during Russia's invasion of Ukraine as of November 6, 2022. Of them, 403 were children ...... mmm
I'll let you prove I'm wrong from your sources
Killed by who?
I'm going to have a wild guess at Russia, over to you
Russia and Ukraine. Weird guess of yours given Ukraine shelling of Donetsk for 8 years.
-
It's equally dumb. Just a stream of batshit far-right b*llocks.
Would batshit crazy support for an imperialist US natrative be left wing then?
By the way, even pro Ukraine sources say the missile was their air defence missile. Nice bit of transparent stoking the Western publics fear of Russia by the media, and those that swallow it.
-
There are currently 4 Typhoons and a stratotanker patrolling the East Coast of the UK, along with a Hercules
Cleethorpes going independent with backing from Russia.
-
Ruskies will say a) made up by West or b) False flag op by Ukraine to try to get NATO involved
But that's what happened, as far as the Western media stories go and knee jerk responses. Can you see the game? Even tho evidently not a Russian missile directed at Poland/NATO, the fear is whipped up which gathers public behind the massive financial cost of a proxy war in Ukraine. A cost that is massively impacting the UK and Euro NATO countries causing a slide away from the military action in public opinion.
-
Here's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.
What happens then?
History doesn't stop.
Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.
I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.
But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?
I agree, tho realistically, Russia isn't going anywhere bar Ukraine. And that scenario was stirred by the US. You have to ask why. One reason being suggested is that the US is wanting to reduce the power and wealth of its competitors and increase its wealth and influence.
Re Russia, that's obvious. Ukraine is merely a pawn in that. V surprised that you can't see that.
The less discussed aspect is the EU. The war has severely affectedthe EU, and Europe in general. The taking out of the gas pipeline has exacerbated this, as well as being an attempt, failed, to reduce Russian income. The US is making money selling expensive gas to Europe. Europe is now more expensive to produce goods, hence the US will increase its industry. Clearly a desired effect for the US.
Rubbish - and victim blaming.
Russian expansionism was stirred by Putin wanting to recreate the Soviet Union and emulate Peter the Great. And excused by the type of people who refused to believe Stalin created gulags and repressing the Hungarian uprising was necessary.
Open your eyes. Even if there is some truth in what you say, and I personally can see some of that as Russians motive though realistically, that doesn't fit with what will happen. You fell differently, I see that. What I find strange is your stark denial of US motives and ambitions, especially as its power is undeniably shrinking, or at least under pressure.
Open yours.
Russia illegally invaded a sovereign independent country, twice, due to the richest man in the world wanting to expand his empire and erradicate a country he doesn't believe should exisit (not what I think - but what Putin has said) and all you can do is talk about the US.
Open your eyes.
Thing is Wilts, my eyes are open, I know Russia was itching for a bite at Ukraine, as did the US. Georgia and a couple of other southern border states that were part of USSR are vulnerable too.. The propaganda about Poland, even the whole of Ukraine is nonsense.
So your eyes are open. Tell me how you see US expansionism.
-
Depends whose or what figures you are reading. What are you going by? I suppose you're aware of Ukraine shelling Donetsk and killing civilians for the last 8 years?
As you say let's cut to the chase, your answer to my question is?
Dont know. Depends what figures you're using. What are you using? Seems you have drawn a conclusion.
Can't bring yourself to do it, shame
So you don't know either. Fog of war eh!
The Office of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights (OHCHR) verified a total of 6,490 civilian deaths during Russia's invasion of Ukraine as of November 6, 2022. Of them, 403 were children ...... mmm
I'll let you prove I'm wrong from your sources
Killed by who?
I'm going to have a wild guess at Russia, over to you
Russia and Ukraine. Weird guess of yours given Ukraine shelling of Donetsk for 8 years.
Any figures on the split then? I'm sure your sources can supply some
-
32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?
Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.
And about 200 before the Donbas war started.
To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.
-
Why are the Baltic States less at risk than Ukraine?
Why is Georgia not at risk, given Putin has already invaded once?
Why is Poland not at risk when there is the Kaliningrad enclave as an ongoing issue?
Transnistria is not &quot;as good as Russian&quot;. It is a part of a sovereign state that is not Russia. (Your nonsense about Russia taking it and Odessa is funny, mind. Have you been living under a rock for the past week? After fleeing over the Dneister, there's more chance of Russia invading Cleethorpes than taking Odessa anytime soon.)
Are you really trying to claim that if Ukraine rolls over and let's Putin have them as a vassal state, that's the end of his imperialist expansion?
Really?
I think Georgia is the only one there at risk.
Baltic are NATO, Poland too.
Kallingrad - check your geog, it's Lithuania. Though if Belarus falls to US/EU imperialism, Latvia too. Though already said re Baltic.
Cleethorpes should be given up.
First rule of being a smart arse. Make sure you're on solid ground.
-
Why are the Baltic States less at risk than Ukraine?
Why is Georgia not at risk, given Putin has already invaded once?
Why is Poland not at risk when there is the Kaliningrad enclave as an ongoing issue?
Transnistria is not &quot;as good as Russian&quot;. It is a part of a sovereign state that is not Russia. (Your nonsense about Russia taking it and Odessa is funny, mind. Have you been living under a rock for the past week? After fleeing over the Dneister, there's more chance of Russia invading Cleethorpes than taking Odessa anytime soon.)
Are you really trying to claim that if Ukraine rolls over and let's Putin have them as a vassal state, that's the end of his imperialist expansion?
Really?
I think Georgia is the only one there at risk.
Baltic are NATO, Poland too.
Kallingrad - check your geog, it's Lithuania. Though if Belarus falls to US/EU imperialism, Latvia too. Though already said re Baltic.
Cleethorpes should be given up.
Err. Do you really need someone to point out what you are saying here?
-
Here's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.
What happens then?
History doesn't stop.
Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.
I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.
But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?
I agree, tho realistically, Russia isn't going anywhere bar Ukraine. And that scenario was stirred by the US. You have to ask why. One reason being suggested is that the US is wanting to reduce the power and wealth of its competitors and increase its wealth and influence.
Re Russia, that's obvious. Ukraine is merely a pawn in that. V surprised that you can't see that.
The less discussed aspect is the EU. The war has severely affectedthe EU, and Europe in general. The taking out of the gas pipeline has exacerbated this, as well as being an attempt, failed, to reduce Russian income. The US is making money selling expensive gas to Europe. Europe is now more expensive to produce goods, hence the US will increase its industry. Clearly a desired effect for the US.
Rubbish - and victim blaming.
Russian expansionism was stirred by Putin wanting to recreate the Soviet Union and emulate Peter the Great. And excused by the type of people who refused to believe Stalin created gulags and repressing the Hungarian uprising was necessary.
Open your eyes. Even if there is some truth in what you say, and I personally can see some of that as Russians motive though realistically, that doesn't fit with what will happen. You fell differently, I see that. What I find strange is your stark denial of US motives and ambitions, especially as its power is undeniably shrinking, or at least under pressure.
Open yours.
Russia illegally invaded a sovereign independent country, twice, due to the richest man in the world wanting to expand his empire and erradicate a country he doesn't believe should exisit (not what I think - but what Putin has said) and all you can do is talk about the US.
Open your eyes.
Thing is Wilts, my eyes are open, I know Russia was itching for a bite at Ukraine, as did the US. Georgia and a couple of other southern border states that were part of USSR are vulnerable too.. The propaganda about Poland, even the whole of Ukraine is nonsense.
So your eyes are open. Tell me how you see US expansionism.
Totally irrelevant to the illegal invasion of an independent sovereign country by an imperialist fascist dictator who doesn't believe that country should exist.
Tell us why you dont think that country should be able & assisted to defend itself against that invasion?
-
Kherson became the only major city to fall to invading Russian troops in early March.
Particularly heavy fighting was reported on March 1. A graphic video surfaced online showing bodies of Ukrainian soldiers with missing limbs or heads left in a park.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1592935898915950593
I blame FTX or false flag - otherwise this is the barbarism I am attempting to excuse.
-
32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?
Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.
And about 200 before the Donbas war started.
To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.
Malaysian flight, wonder who shot that down?
-
Why are the Baltic States less at risk than Ukraine?
Why is Georgia not at risk, given Putin has already invaded once?
Why is Poland not at risk when there is the Kaliningrad enclave as an ongoing issue?
Transnistria is not &amp;quot;as good as Russian&amp;quot;. It is a part of a sovereign state that is not Russia. (Your nonsense about Russia taking it and Odessa is funny, mind. Have you been living under a rock for the past week? After fleeing over the Dneister, there's more chance of Russia invading Cleethorpes than taking Odessa anytime soon.)
Are you really trying to claim that if Ukraine rolls over and let's Putin have them as a vassal state, that's the end of his imperialist expansion?
Really?
I think Georgia is the only one there at risk.
Baltic are NATO, Poland too.
Kallingrad - check your geog, it's Lithuania. Though if Belarus falls to US/EU imperialism, Latvia too. Though already said re Baltic.
Cleethorpes should be given up.
First rule of being a smart arse. Make sure you're on solid ground.
The Suwalki Gap along the Poland-Lithuanian border - a potential access from Russia (via Belarus) to their Kaliningrad enclave - is probably the most at risk real estate in all NATO territory on mainland Europe
https://time.com/4675758/suwalki-gap-europe-photos/
-
Here's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.
What happens then?
History doesn't stop.
Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.
I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.
But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?
I agree, tho realistically, Russia isn't going anywhere bar Ukraine. And that scenario was stirred by the US. You have to ask why. One reason being suggested is that the US is wanting to reduce the power and wealth of its competitors and increase its wealth and influence.
Re Russia, that's obvious. Ukraine is merely a pawn in that. V surprised that you can't see that.
The less discussed aspect is the EU. The war has severely affectedthe EU, and Europe in general. The taking out of the gas pipeline has exacerbated this, as well as being an attempt, failed, to reduce Russian income. The US is making money selling expensive gas to Europe. Europe is now more expensive to produce goods, hence the US will increase its industry. Clearly a desired effect for the US.
Rubbish - and victim blaming.
Russian expansionism was stirred by Putin wanting to recreate the Soviet Union and emulate Peter the Great. And excused by the type of people who refused to believe Stalin created gulags and repressing the Hungarian uprising was necessary.
Open your eyes. Even if there is some truth in what you say, and I personally can see some of that as Russians motive though realistically, that doesn't fit with what will happen. You fell differently, I see that. What I find strange is your stark denial of US motives and ambitions, especially as its power is undeniably shrinking, or at least under pressure.
Open yours.
Russia illegally invaded a sovereign independent country, twice, due to the richest man in the world wanting to expand his empire and erradicate a country he doesn't believe should exisit (not what I think - but what Putin has said) and all you can do is talk about the US.
Open your eyes.
Thing is Wilts, my eyes are open, I know Russia was itching for a bite at Ukraine, as did the US. Georgia and a couple of other southern border states that were part of USSR are vulnerable too.. The propaganda about Poland, even the whole of Ukraine is nonsense.
So your eyes are open. Tell me how you see US expansionism.
Totally irrelevant to the illegal invasion of an independent sovereign country by an imperialist fascist dictator who doesn't believe that country should exist.
Tell us why you dont think that country should be able & assisted to defend itself against that invasion?
If it wasn't for US imperialism, Russia wouldn't be in Ukraine, simples. If you can step out from that vortex of a blindfold you have imposed on you, you might find you can open your eyes.
We could talk about who is defending who in Ukraine, because not one man out on the front will benefit. The gangsters in government and gangsters behind the government, and behind the front lines are the ones not wanting to lose out. Them and the US investors who own huge amounts of Ukraine land etc. Oh yeah, except for those believing in the mythical nationalistic ideas, ideas given to the masses to keep them obedient. At best it's a case of defend and die for the devil you know. Sad innit.
-
Kherson became the only major city to fall to invading Russian troops in early March.
Particularly heavy fighting was reported on March 1. A graphic video surfaced online showing bodies of Ukrainian soldiers with missing limbs or heads left in a park.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1592935898915950593
I blame FTX or false flag - otherwise this is the barbarism I am attempting to excuse.
In that vid, I saw one several dead soldiers, and one with his head missing, though he was next to a tree that had been hit by at least one sizable shell, the kind that could easily have taken a head off. The neck certainly hadn't been severed by a blade, or if it had then the local dogs had been for a feed and roughened it up. The body of that man was either shot 24 plus times or had been ripped into by shrapnel. Some of the holes were larger than bullet holes - could have been both.
Or maybe I'm missing what barbarism you are refering to? Apart from the barbarism of war.
And remember you exaggerated. It was only one body with a missing head. You paint a picture of something completely different.
-
32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?
Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.
And about 200 before the Donbas war started.
To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.
Malaysian flight, wonder who shot that down?
Quite probably was a Donestk PR crew seriously screwing up, though we have no details. What the flight was doing anywhere near a war zone is also a question.
-
32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?
Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.
And about 200 before the Donbas war started.
To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.
Malaysian flight, wonder who shot that down?
Quite probably was a Donestk PR crew seriously screwing up, though we have no details. What the flight was doing anywhere near a war zone is also a question.
"We have no details"
That's a cracker, even by your standards of ignoring any war crimes by Russia.
-
Why are the Baltic States less at risk than Ukraine?
Why is Georgia not at risk, given Putin has already invaded once?
Why is Poland not at risk when there is the Kaliningrad enclave as an ongoing issue?
Transnistria is not &amp;amp;quot;as good as Russian&amp;amp;quot;. It is a part of a sovereign state that is not Russia. (Your nonsense about Russia taking it and Odessa is funny, mind. Have you been living under a rock for the past week? After fleeing over the Dneister, there's more chance of Russia invading Cleethorpes than taking Odessa anytime soon.)
Are you really trying to claim that if Ukraine rolls over and let's Putin have them as a vassal state, that's the end of his imperialist expansion?
Really?
I think Georgia is the only one there at risk.
Baltic are NATO, Poland too.
Kallingrad - check your geog, it's Lithuania. Though if Belarus falls to US/EU imperialism, Latvia too. Though already said re Baltic.
Cleethorpes should be given up.
First rule of being a smart arse. Make sure you're on solid ground.
The Suwalki Gap along the Poland-Lithuanian border - a potential access from Russia (via Belarus) to their Kaliningrad enclave - is probably the most at risk real estate in all NATO territory on mainland Europe
https://time.com/4675758/suwalki-gap-europe-photos/
Not sure about that. I usually go from Moscow into Belarus and take the E30 into Minsk, catch the E28 and head up to Vilnius and then the same road all the way to Kaliningrad. Google agrees.
The train goes almost the identical route.
-
32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?
Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.
And about 200 before the Donbas war started.
To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.
Malaysian flight, wonder who shot that down?
Quite probably was a Donestk PR crew seriously screwing up, though we have no details. What the flight was doing anywhere near a war zone is also a question.
"We have no details"
That's a cracker, even by your standards of ignoring any war crimes by Russia.
Okay be Frank, tell me what you know for a fact, beyond what I just said.
-
32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?
Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.
And about 200 before the Donbas war started.
To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.
Malaysian flight, wonder who shot that down?
I note you skipped over the Mariupol deaths.
-
Why are the Baltic States less at risk than Ukraine?
Why is Georgia not at risk, given Putin has already invaded once?
Why is Poland not at risk when there is the Kaliningrad enclave as an ongoing issue?
Transnistria is not &amp;amp;quot;as good as Russian&amp;amp;quot;. It is a part of a sovereign state that is not Russia. (Your nonsense about Russia taking it and Odessa is funny, mind. Have you been living under a rock for the past week? After fleeing over the Dneister, there's more chance of Russia invading Cleethorpes than taking Odessa anytime soon.)
Are you really trying to claim that if Ukraine rolls over and let's Putin have them as a vassal state, that's the end of his imperialist expansion?
Really?
I think Georgia is the only one there at risk.
Baltic are NATO, Poland too.
Kallingrad - check your geog, it's Lithuania. Though if Belarus falls to US/EU imperialism, Latvia too. Though already said re Baltic.
Cleethorpes should be given up.
First rule of being a smart arse. Make sure you're on solid ground.
The Suwalki Gap along the Poland-Lithuanian border - a potential access from Russia (via Belarus) to their Kaliningrad enclave - is probably the most at risk real estate in all NATO territory on mainland Europe
https://time.com/4675758/suwalki-gap-europe-photos/
Not sure about that. I usually go from Moscow into Belarus and take the E30 into Minsk, catch the E28 and head up to Vilnius and then the same road all the way to Kaliningrad. Google agrees.
The train goes almost the identical route.
Does Putin pay mileage or do you have to put in your receipts?
-
Here's the REALLY big question to those who think Ukraine shouldn't fight, and the Western democracies shouldn't support them.
What happens then?
History doesn't stop.
Expansionist dictators would take a lesson from that capitulation. And the lesson would be that they are free to bully, intimidate, invade and absorb weaker neighbours.
I know some of the Putin fanboys would be fine with much of Europe being under the heel of a fascist dictator. AL in here has said we should have left Hitler to do what he wanted in Europe.
But I wonder if the #bothsides folk ever stop and think what the world looks like in 50 years time, if Putin (and more importantly, Xi) are not told firmly and unequivocally that the West will not stand by and watch expansionist dictators do what they want?
I agree, tho realistically, Russia isn't going anywhere bar Ukraine. And that scenario was stirred by the US. You have to ask why. One reason being suggested is that the US is wanting to reduce the power and wealth of its competitors and increase its wealth and influence.
Re Russia, that's obvious. Ukraine is merely a pawn in that. V surprised that you can't see that.
The less discussed aspect is the EU. The war has severely affectedthe EU, and Europe in general. The taking out of the gas pipeline has exacerbated this, as well as being an attempt, failed, to reduce Russian income. The US is making money selling expensive gas to Europe. Europe is now more expensive to produce goods, hence the US will increase its industry. Clearly a desired effect for the US.
Rubbish - and victim blaming.
Russian expansionism was stirred by Putin wanting to recreate the Soviet Union and emulate Peter the Great. And excused by the type of people who refused to believe Stalin created gulags and repressing the Hungarian uprising was necessary.
Open your eyes. Even if there is some truth in what you say, and I personally can see some of that as Russians motive though realistically, that doesn't fit with what will happen. You fell differently, I see that. What I find strange is your stark denial of US motives and ambitions, especially as its power is undeniably shrinking, or at least under pressure.
Open yours.
Russia illegally invaded a sovereign independent country, twice, due to the richest man in the world wanting to expand his empire and erradicate a country he doesn't believe should exisit (not what I think - but what Putin has said) and all you can do is talk about the US.
Open your eyes.
Thing is Wilts, my eyes are open, I know Russia was itching for a bite at Ukraine, as did the US. Georgia and a couple of other southern border states that were part of USSR are vulnerable too.. The propaganda about Poland, even the whole of Ukraine is nonsense.
So your eyes are open. Tell me how you see US expansionism.
Totally irrelevant to the illegal invasion of an independent sovereign country by an imperialist fascist dictator who doesn't believe that country should exist.
Tell us why you dont think that country should be able &amp; assisted to defend itself against that invasion?
If it wasn't for US imperialism, Russia wouldn't be in Ukraine, simples. If you can step out from that vortex of a blindfold you have imposed on you, you might find you can open your eyes.
We could talk about who is defending who in Ukraine, because not one man out on the front will benefit. The gangsters in government and gangsters behind the government, and behind the front lines are the ones not wanting to lose out. Them and the US investors who own huge amounts of Ukraine land etc. Oh yeah, except for those believing in the mythical nationalistic ideas, ideas given to the masses to keep them obedient. At best it's a case of defend and die for the devil you know. Sad innit.
US imperialism has nothing to do with why Putin invaded Ukraine. Putin doesn't believe Ukraine should exist - due to his mythical nationalistic ideas. He believes he should rule it - because he has been saying it since at least 2008. However many times you decide to ignore and deflect Putin's fascist imperialism - that's all you are doing.
-
32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?
Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.
And about 200 before the Donbas war started.
To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.
Malaysian flight, wonder who shot that down?
I note you skipped over the Mariupol deaths.
It is known? From reports by whom?
-
You can check his information source if you wish BRR.
https://youtu.be/g-YKRc_b7CE
-
The Suwalki Gap along the Poland-Lithuanian border - a potential access from Russia (via Belarus) to their Kaliningrad enclave - is probably the most at risk real estate in all NATO territory on mainland Europe
https://time.com/4675758/suwalki-gap-europe-photos/
Not sure about that. I usually go from Moscow into Belarus and take the E30 into Minsk, catch the E28 and head up to Vilnius and then the same road all the way to Kaliningrad. Google agrees.
The train goes almost the identical route.
Replying in the same spirit, a longshot but I am guessing Google does not take into account the customs duties for tanks to be paid at the border :lol:
Oh and also protecting Lines of Communication and Supply ;)
-
US imperialism has nothing to do with why Putin invaded Ukraine. Putin doesn't believe Ukraine should exist - due to his mythical nationalistic ideas. He believes he should rule it - because he has been saying it since at least 2008. However many times you decide to ignore and deflect Putin's fascist imperialism - that's all you are doing.
Your blinkered myopic view is astounding.
-
32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?
Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.
And about 200 before the Donbas war started.
To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.
Malaysian flight, wonder who shot that down?
I note you skipped over the Mariupol deaths.
It is known? From reports by whom?
Ukraine officials, see wiki and elsewhere
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol#Civilian_casualties
-
US imperialism has nothing to do with why Putin invaded Ukraine. Putin doesn't believe Ukraine should exist - due to his mythical nationalistic ideas. He believes he should rule it - because he has been saying it since at least 2008. However many times you decide to ignore and deflect Putin's fascist imperialism - that's all you are doing.
Your blinkered myopic view is astounding.
Of course it if you only read Russian propoganda.
Read Bill Browder's books on his experiences in Putin's Russia and then get back to me. Then you might not feel to disinclined to see where the richest man in the world got his wealth and why he invaded Ukraine to increase it.
-
Ombudsman says he’s ‘shoked’ by scale of torture Russian forces inflicted on Kherson residents.
“I haven’t seen such a scale of (human rights violations) before. And I personally visited all (Russian) torture chambers in different Ukrainian oblasts,” Dmytro Lubinets said.
Lubinets said that 2 torture chambers have already been discovered in Kherson, where “dozens of people were subjected to torture,” and there are confirmed facts of people being killed after torture.
“It seems that (the Russian military) get some satisfaction from it when they kill and torture our citizens,” Lubinets said.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1593326013852930049
Apparently some people think this is the fault of the US...
Good luck in sleeping at night.
-
You can check his information source if you wish BRR.
https://youtu.be/g-YKRc_b7CE
Long vid, what specifically are you referring to? That there wasn't a war that affected civilians in Donetsk?
Starsky uses unnecessary emotive language, though he does reference well, just that he is evidently biased. But do tell me specifically what you are saying or I'm unable to comment.
-
The Suwalki Gap along the Poland-Lithuanian border - a potential access from Russia (via Belarus) to their Kaliningrad enclave - is probably the most at risk real estate in all NATO territory on mainland Europe
https://time.com/4675758/suwalki-gap-europe-photos/
Not sure about that. I usually go from Moscow into Belarus and take the E30 into Minsk, catch the E28 and head up to Vilnius and then the same road all the way to Kaliningrad. Google agrees.
The train goes almost the identical route.
Replying in the same spirit, a longshot but I am guessing Google does not take into account the customs duties for tanks to be paid at the border :lol:
Oh and also protecting Lines of Communication and Supply ;)
Yeah, I did have to slip a few roubles, a watch, and my soul to get the tank through! By all accounts the Poles are more expensive.
-
US imperialism has nothing to do with why Putin invaded Ukraine. Putin doesn't believe Ukraine should exist - due to his mythical nationalistic ideas. He believes he should rule it - because he has been saying it since at least 2008. However many times you decide to ignore and deflect Putin's fascist imperialism - that's all you are doing.
Your blinkered myopic view is astounding.
Of course it if you only read Russian propoganda.
Read Bill Browder's books on his experiences in Putin's Russia and then get back to me. Then you might not feel to disinclined to see where the richest man in the world got his wealth and why he invaded Ukraine to increase it.
And you are blind to US interests, but then you are only speaking from Ukraine/Western propaganda, so fair enough.
-
32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?
Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.
And about 200 before the Donbas war started.
To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.
Malaysian flight, wonder who shot that down?
I note you skipped over the Mariupol deaths.
It is known? From reports by whom?
Ukraine officials, see wiki and elsewhere
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol#Civilian_casualties
This is like being in some dystopian alternative truth nightmare.
BRR says something he's heard from Russian MoD sources.
He's asked to justify it.
He gives a link that doesn't justify anything he said, and claims a slam dunk. While totally ignoring the long and detailed section on Russian War Crimes in the very link he posted.
It's actually quite frightening to watch someone so divorced from rationality arguing a case.
-
Ombudsman says he’s ‘shoked’ by scale of torture Russian forces inflicted on Kherson residents.
“I haven’t seen such a scale of (human rights violations) before. And I personally visited all (Russian) torture chambers in different Ukrainian oblasts,” Dmytro Lubinets said.
Lubinets said that 2 torture chambers have already been discovered in Kherson, where “dozens of people were subjected to torture,” and there are confirmed facts of people being killed after torture.
“It seems that (the Russian military) get some satisfaction from it when they kill and torture our citizens,” Lubinets said.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1593326013852930049
Apparently some people think this is the fault of the US...
Good luck in sleeping at night.
Are you suggesting Ukraine doesn't also "filter" residents when it takes over areas? You know full well that there are many in both territories giving info to the other side on military positions etc, at least some of those planted specifically by the opposite force to do this. It happens in all wars. I'm not saying whether either side is over the top in this, I don't know, but from what you say you haven't a Scooby either, but somehow come to a conclusion.
-
32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?
Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.
And about 200 before the Donbas war started.
To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.
Malaysian flight, wonder who shot that down?
I note you skipped over the Mariupol deaths.
It is known? From reports by whom?
Ukraine officials, see wiki and elsewhere
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Mariupol#Civilian_casualties
This is like being in some dystopian alternative truth nightmare.
BRR says something he's heard from Russian MoD sources.
He's asked to justify it.
He gives a link that doesn't justify anything he said, and claims a slam dunk. While totally ignoring the long and detailed section on Russian War Crimes in the very link he posted.
It's actually quite frightening to watch someone so divorced from rationality arguing a case.
Makes no sense. Frst, the info I gave is not from Russiian sources, second you are as usual extremely vague. Almost rhetorical again.
-
32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?
Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.
And about 200 before the Donbas war started.
To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.
Malaysian flight, wonder who shot that down?
Quite probably was a Donestk PR crew seriously screwing up, though we have no details. What the flight was doing anywhere near a war zone is also a question.
"We have no details"
That's a cracker, even by your standards of ignoring any war crimes by Russia.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63637625
Exactly what I suggested.
-
32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?
Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.
And about 200 before the Donbas war started.
To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.
How strange ypu should bring up the Malaysian flight.
Well, well, well!
-
A few months old but worth a mention
''U.K. hits a British blogger with sanctions for pro-Russian propaganda''
''A British citizen had his assets frozen by Britain’s Foreign Office on Tuesday as the government announced a raft of new sanctions on individuals, companies, and others supporting the government of President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia''
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/27/world/uk-sanctions-british-blogger-for-pro-russian-propaganda.html
-
A few months old but worth a mention
''U.K. hits a British blogger with sanctions for pro-Russian propaganda''
''A British citizen had his assets frozen by Britain’s Foreign Office on Tuesday as the government announced a raft of new sanctions on individuals, companies, and others supporting the government of President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia''
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/27/world/uk-sanctions-british-blogger-for-pro-russian-propaganda.html
Is that legal? I can’t view the article.
I’m guessing there is some sort of financial involvement here or that he has ties to the Kremlin?
-
It may be paywalled here's the rest
''Graham Phillips, 43, a pro-Kremlin blogger who was born in Nottingham, England, moved to Ukraine more than a decade ago and has spent the last several years recording and promoting videos from the country, amassing hundreds of thousands of followers to a YouTube account that has praised the Russian invasion. He worked briefly as a freelancer for the Russian state-owned television network RT, which many Western governments have accused of being a tool of the Kremlin and of spreading disinformation.
The Foreign Office, in announcing the freezing of Mr. Philip’s assets, characterized him as “a video blogger who has produced and published media content that supports and promotes actions and policies which destabilize Ukraine and undermine or threaten the territorial integrity, sovereignty, or independence of Ukraine.”
Mr. Phillips said in an email that he had been given no prior warning of the decision and questioned the legality of the measures.
“Please can someone explain to me how a British person can be put on a British sanctions list without any opportunity to defend himself, or any actual charges against him, just because the U.K. government don’t like his work?” Mr. Phillips wrote.
The move to punish Mr. Phillips came as Britain’s Foreign Office announced a raft of new sanctions on Tuesday directed at a number of people for supporting Mr. Putin’s regime, including Russian-installed officials in the eastern Luhansk and Donetsk regions.
Others on the expanded list included the justice minister and deputy justice minister of Russia, two nephews of oligarchs, and some Syrian citizens who the Foreign Office asserted were “undermining Ukrainian territorial integrity” by recruiting mercenaries in Syria.
Britain has sanctioned more than 1,000 people and 100 businesses since the Russian invasion of Ukraine began in February.
Mr. Phillips, who moved to Ukraine in 2010, was an English teacher for a time and wrote extensively about his experience in the country including detailing his own exploits in brothels, and writing about sex tourism in posts that have since been deleted.
Editors’ Picks
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When the Maidan protest movement over Ukraine’s future direction began in 2013, he began documenting the scenes, and, despite his inexperience, threw himself into making videos and filing reports on social media of the conflict, amassing a large following.
By 2014, he became a freelancer for RT. He has praised the Russian annexation of Crimea and regularly has voiced support for pro-Russian separatists in the country’s east, framing his videos as counterpoints to the Western narrative.
Since the full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine began in February, Mr. Phillips has been documenting the war from the Russian side. This spring, Mr. Phillips interviewed and posted a video of Aiden Aslin, a British man who joined the Ukrainian military in Mariupol and then was captured by Russian forces.
Speaking in Parliament after the video was posted, Robert Jenrick, the lawmaker who represents Mr. Aslin’s constituency, said the interview was a “flagrant breach” of the Geneva Conventions, which bans broadcasting the questioning of prisoners of war.
Mr. Jenrick also said Mr. Phillips was “in danger of prosecution for war crimes.” Prime Minister Boris Johnson later said he “echoed the sentiments about those who broadcast propaganda messages.” The clip was later removed.
Megan Specia is a correspondent on the International Desk in London, covering the United Kingdom and Ireland. She has been with The Times since 2016. @meganspecia
Euan Ward is a reporter on the International desk and a 2022-2023 New York Times Fellow. He is based in London, and previously worked as a Middle East correspondent and investigative reporter in Beirut. @euanward''
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/27/world/uk-sanctions-british-blogger-for-pro-russian-propaganda.html
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On the one hand restrictions on info, on the other the state BBC propaganda. Still think we live in a free country?
-
Ombudsman says he’s ‘shoked’ by scale of torture Russian forces inflicted on Kherson residents.
“I haven’t seen such a scale of (human rights violations) before. And I personally visited all (Russian) torture chambers in different Ukrainian oblasts,” Dmytro Lubinets said.
Lubinets said that 2 torture chambers have already been discovered in Kherson, where “dozens of people were subjected to torture,” and there are confirmed facts of people being killed after torture.
“It seems that (the Russian military) get some satisfaction from it when they kill and torture our citizens,” Lubinets said.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1593326013852930049
Apparently some people think this is the fault of the US...
Good luck in sleeping at night.
BTW, still waiting for your reply to your "bodies of Ukrainian soldiers with missing limbs or heads" disinformation. I accept you possibly didn't want to watch the vid linked to in the report and were simply going on the tweet from the evidently biased Kyiv media.
-
On the one hand restrictions on info, on the other the state BBC propaganda. Still think we live in a free country?
I have ‘poked fun’ at our King on this very forum.
My chickens (MI5 are investigating, but I believe in free speech BECAUSE we live in a free country) provided the eggs thrown at said King in York last week.
Boris Johnson (the t**t) became Prime Minister of MY country & wined & dined Ruskies, Arabs & Chinese in order to gain support financially by offering such countries & regimes contracts & contacts in order to gain a foothold in MY country.
Russia is a State that cares for its people as I would a speck of dust or lint on my coat, something to be discarded without a second thought.
The Chinese would take the skin from the backs of their peasant workers if they could make ‘designer’ goods from them.
The Arabs stink. They wash their hands & feet before prayer but never their c**ks & ar**s before bu**ing 12 year old boys.
I say all of this because I live not in Moscow, or Beijing, or Abu Dhabi but in Yorkshire, land of the brave but more importantly, land of the free. And as such, I have no fear of a knock on my door in the wee small hours.
Nadobranich.
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I was raped in Yorkshire, way younger than 12 too, as were and are many others.
I have lots of friends from all those cultures you mention, and I can assure you they are far fron your stereotyping. I think your comments are the kind of thing that breeds hatred that can mean those people get more than a knock in the morning.
Meanwhile, enjoy flying your flag.
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32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?
Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.
And about 200 before the Donbas war started.
To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.
How strange ypu should bring up the Malaysian flight.
Well, well, well!
Gone a bit quiet on here BRR, oh and by the way did you watch the Mariupol programme, any comment?
-
It may be paywalled here's the rest
''Graham Phillips, 43, a pro-Kremlin blogger who was born in Nottingham, England, moved to Ukraine more than a decade ago and has spent the last several years recording and promoting videos from the country, amassing hundreds of thousands of followers to a YouTube account that has praised the Russian invasion. He worked briefly as a freelancer for the Russian state-owned television network RT, which many Western governments have accused of being a tool of the Kremlin and of spreading disinformation.
The Foreign Office, in announcing the freezing of Mr. Philip’s assets, characterized him as “a video blogger who has produced and published media content that supports and promotes actions and policies which destabilize Ukraine and undermine or threaten the territorial integrity, sovereignty, or independence of Ukraine.”
Mr. Phillips said in an email that he had been given no prior warning of the decision and questioned the legality of the measures.
“Please can someone explain to me how a British person can be put on a British sanctions list without any opportunity to defend himself, or any actual charges against him, just because the U.K. government don’t like his work?” Mr. Phillips wrote.
The move to punish Mr. Phillips came as Britain’s Foreign Office announced a raft of new sanctions on Tuesday directed at a number of people for supporting Mr. Putin’s regime, including Russian-installed officials in the eastern Luhansk and Donetsk regions.
Others on the expanded list included the justice minister and deputy justice minister of Russia, two nephews of oligarchs, and some Syrian citizens who the Foreign Office asserted were “undermining Ukrainian territorial integrity” by recruiting mercenaries in Syria.
Britain has sanctioned more than 1,000 people and 100 businesses since the Russian invasion of Ukraine began in February.
Mr. Phillips, who moved to Ukraine in 2010, was an English teacher for a time and wrote extensively about his experience in the country including detailing his own exploits in brothels, and writing about sex tourism in posts that have since been deleted.
Editors’ Picks
Flying Alone With Your Kids? Make Sure You Have Proof of Your Relationship
Want Taylor Swift Tickets? You’re on Your Own, Kid.
What Could 20 Years’ Worth of Savings Buy on the West Side? Two Longtime Renters Found Out.
When the Maidan protest movement over Ukraine’s future direction began in 2013, he began documenting the scenes, and, despite his inexperience, threw himself into making videos and filing reports on social media of the conflict, amassing a large following.
By 2014, he became a freelancer for RT. He has praised the Russian annexation of Crimea and regularly has voiced support for pro-Russian separatists in the country’s east, framing his videos as counterpoints to the Western narrative.
Since the full-scale Russian invasion of Ukraine began in February, Mr. Phillips has been documenting the war from the Russian side. This spring, Mr. Phillips interviewed and posted a video of Aiden Aslin, a British man who joined the Ukrainian military in Mariupol and then was captured by Russian forces.
Speaking in Parliament after the video was posted, Robert Jenrick, the lawmaker who represents Mr. Aslin’s constituency, said the interview was a “flagrant breach” of the Geneva Conventions, which bans broadcasting the questioning of prisoners of war.
Mr. Jenrick also said Mr. Phillips was “in danger of prosecution for war crimes.” Prime Minister Boris Johnson later said he “echoed the sentiments about those who broadcast propaganda messages.” The clip was later removed.
Megan Specia is a correspondent on the International Desk in London, covering the United Kingdom and Ireland. She has been with The Times since 2016. @meganspecia
Euan Ward is a reporter on the International desk and a 2022-2023 New York Times Fellow. He is based in London, and previously worked as a Middle East correspondent and investigative reporter in Beirut. @euanward''
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/27/world/uk-sanctions-british-blogger-for-pro-russian-propaganda.html
Thank you. That’s fair enough then. He’s essentially working for our enemies against us.
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32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?
Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.
And about 200 before the Donbas war started.
To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.
How strange ypu should bring up the Malaysian flight.
Well, well, well!
Gone a bit quiet on here BRR, oh and by the way did you watch the Mariupol programme, any comment?
Plenty going on in Ukraine tho. I'm surprised no one mentioned the vid evidencing the Ukraine shooting of Russian prisoners, or the positive way NATO handled Zelensky's call for WW3.
No, haven't watched the vid yet. Have seen many vids of Mariupol, so will be interesting to see the perspective in that.
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No comment on the verdict on the shooting down of the plane?
-
No comment on the verdict on the shooting down of the plane?
Is that one shot down recently or the Malaysian one I commented on twice above?
-
That'll be the one you haven't commented about since the verdict was announced
-
No comment on the verdict on the shooting down of the plane?
Is that one shot down recently or the Malaysian one I commented on twice above?
If you read “I am Bellingcat” by Elliot Ward Higgins you will see that from open sources the Buck missile launcher’s movements there in detail.
It was tracked from an army base inside Russia to the launch site and then tracked back with one missile missing. There were even selfies and texts from the Russian crew.
-
No comment on the verdict on the shooting down of the plane?
Is that one shot down recently or the Malaysian one I commented on twice above?
If you read “I am Bellingcat” by Elliot Ward Higgins you will see that from open sources the Buck missile launcher’s movements there in detail.
It was tracked from an army base inside Russia to the launch site and then tracked back with one missile missing. There were even selfies and texts from the Russian crew.
Just an unfortunate training exercise, plane sadly wandered into the path of a Russian missile that was being test fired over another landmass.
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Yeah, shame it wasn’t a Russian bomber.
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That'll be the one you haven't commented about since the verdict was announced
Wrong, scroll back.
-
No comment on the verdict on the shooting down of the plane?
Is that one shot down recently or the Malaysian one I commented on twice above?
If you read “I am Bellingcat” by Elliot Ward Higgins you will see that from open sources the Buck missile launcher’s movements there in detail.
It was tracked from an army base inside Russia to the launch site and then tracked back with one missile missing. There were even selfies and texts from the Russian crew.
Bellingcat... yeah, right.
Let's stick with the actual findings. And then tell me Ukraine hasn't committed any atrocities, including trying to start WW3.
-
Zakhar Prilepin - far right politician, major Putin apologist and founder of a mercenary battalion in Donetesk, admitting on national tv that any peace negotiations will only be a ruse and used by Russia to re-group and launch another attack.
https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1594408064337301504
But the US...
-
32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?
Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.
And about 200 before the Donbas war started.
To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.
Malaysian flight, wonder who shot that down?
Quite probably was a Donestk PR crew seriously screwing up, though we have no details. What the flight was doing anywhere near a war zone is also a question.
Well I've found this prior to the verdict but nothing since. Still blaming the pilot for flying too low or being in the wrong place. Of course even though 2 Russians have been found guilty no condemnation from you
-
But...but..."We don't know the details".
-
No comment on the verdict on the shooting down of the plane?
Is that one shot down recently or the Malaysian one I commented on twice above?
If you read “I am Bellingcat” by Elliot Ward Higgins you will see that from open sources the Buck missile launcher’s movements there in detail.
It was tracked from an army base inside Russia to the launch site and then tracked back with one missile missing. There were even selfies and texts from the Russian crew.
Bellingcat... yeah, right.
Let's stick with the actual findings. And then tell me Ukraine hasn't committed any atrocities, including trying to start WW3.
Their findings were more credible than the official Russian findings and they cited where they got their information from.
-
Zakhar Prilepin - far right politician, major Putin apologist and founder of a mercenary battalion in Donetesk, admitting on national tv that any peace negotiations will only be a ruse and used by Russia to re-group and launch another attack.
https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1594408064337301504
But the US...
First, this guy has his agenda, war to make money. Second, he didn't actually say what you said.
-
32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?
Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.
And about 200 before the Donbas war started.
To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.
Malaysian flight, wonder who shot that down?
Quite probably was a Donestk PR crew seriously screwing up, though we have no details. What the flight was doing anywhere near a war zone is also a question.
Well I've found this prior to the verdict but nothing since. Still blaming the pilot for flying too low or being in the wrong place. Of course even though 2 Russians have been found guilty no condemnation from you
And afterwards I said it was just as I said. Condemnation... it's a conflict that has been fanned into a war which is condemnation enough for me. As for the specifics, I missed where there is an analysis of the exact process of decision making in choosing to fire the missile. Do I think they aimed to shoot down an airliner? Not at all, makes no sense whatsoever except in the mind of a psycho, but then the military and war moreso is a herding ground for psychos.
The height of the flight, the pilot's decsion making I am not questioning although I think it was said they made a turn slightly, which may have put them in danger?? I question the wisdom of unnecessarily flying over a war zone - mental. I doubt you'd be happy in a plane doing that.
-
But...but..."We don't know the details".
Billy the wild west judge who doesn't need to know the details before pulling the trapdoor for the noose to do it's work. And if later is found to be wrong puts it down to bad luck. Nutter.
-
No comment on the verdict on the shooting down of the plane?
Is that one shot down recently or the Malaysian one I commented on twice above?
If you read “I am Bellingcat” by Elliot Ward Higgins you will see that from open sources the Buck missile launcher’s movements there in detail.
It was tracked from an army base inside Russia to the launch site and then tracked back with one missile missing. There were even selfies and texts from the Russian crew.
Bellingcat... yeah, right.
Let's stick with the actual findings. And then tell me Ukraine hasn't committed any atrocities, including trying to start WW3.
Their findings were more credible than the official Russian findings and they cited where they got their information from.
Absolutely. The Russian's unhelpfulness throughout this was appalling. I'm guessing that may come from trying to put as much fog in the way as possible, and not trusting that the authorities concerned are necessarily truly independent.
-
This is quite amusing:
https://twitter.com/CalibreObscura/status/1568282616373059586
BobG
-
Took out that tree pretty well, impressive! Wasn't that in Keystone, not Ukraine?
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Lol. Dunno BRR. But it did make me giggle. Doing the tracked equivalent of a four wheel drift in a tank is mighty impressive.
Did you see the crew abandoning tank in the run up to the power slide? Does make you wonder just what was going on.... Driver got shellshock or something?
BobG
-
Zakhar Prilepin - far right politician, major Putin apologist and founder of a mercenary battalion in Donetesk, admitting on national tv that any peace negotiations will only be a ruse and used by Russia to re-group and launch another attack.
https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1594408064337301504
But the US...
First, this guy has his agenda, war to make money. Second, he didn't actually say what you said.
He has an agenda but you dont? Funny old world...
-
But...but...&quot;We don't know the details&quot;.
Billy the wild west judge who doesn't need to know the details before pulling the trapdoor for the noose to do it's work. And if later is found to be wrong puts it down to bad luck. Nutter.
There have been two investigations and a legal trial, all of which found clear evidence that the missile was Russian, provided and fired by Russian forces.
But your precise words were that we didn't have details.
You do this every single time. You blow smoke across any and every issue where Russia is clearly at fault. You are really not worth giving the time of day to.
-
But you give him lots of time in your day though, because you're a narcissistic Kitson who needs the last word.
-
32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?
Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.
And about 200 before the Donbas war started.
To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.
Malaysian flight, wonder who shot that down?
Quite probably was a Donestk PR crew seriously screwing up, though we have no details. What the flight was doing anywhere near a war zone is also a question.
Well I've found this prior to the verdict but nothing since. Still blaming the pilot for flying too low or being in the wrong place. Of course even though 2 Russians have been found guilty no condemnation from you
And afterwards I said it was just as I said. Condemnation... it's a conflict that has been fanned into a war which is condemnation enough for me. As for the specifics, I missed where there is an analysis of the exact process of decision making in choosing to fire the missile. Do I think they aimed to shoot down an airliner? Not at all, makes no sense whatsoever except in the mind of a psycho, but then the military and war moreso is a herding ground for psychos.
The height of the flight, the pilot's decsion making I am not questioning although I think it was said they made a turn slightly, which may have put them in danger?? I question the wisdom of unnecessarily flying over a war zone - mental. I doubt you'd be happy in a plane doing that.
Excellent whataboutery there BRR no more than expected
-
Zakhar Prilepin - far right politician, major Putin apologist and founder of a mercenary battalion in Donetesk, admitting on national tv that any peace negotiations will only be a ruse and used by Russia to re-group and launch another attack.
https://twitter.com/JuliaDavisNews/status/1594408064337301504
But the US...
First, this guy has his agenda, war to make money. Second, he didn't actually say what you said.
He has an agenda but you dont? Funny old world...
For someone to say what you just said, then completely avoid replying to the in your face point is a bit of a snigger! Get with the picture dude.
-
But...but...&amp;quot;We don't know the details&amp;quot;.
Billy the wild west judge who doesn't need to know the details before pulling the trapdoor for the noose to do it's work. And if later is found to be wrong puts it down to bad luck. Nutter.
There have been two investigations and a legal trial, all of which found clear evidence that the missile was Russian, provided and fired by Russian forces.
But your precise words were that we didn't have details.
You do this every single time. You blow smoke across any and every issue where Russia is clearly at fault. You are really not worth giving the time of day 32k civilians killed since Feb according to wiki, 25k of those in Mariupol. I know the western narrative on that is Russians waded in, but from a lot of what I saw and heard, the Azovs there were at least as responsible, and probably more callous in what they did. I guess that's a shock for you?
Add to this that 3.5 to 5k civilians died between 2014 and end of 2021, including those on the Malaysian flight.
And about 200 before the Donbas war started.
To suggest these were all killed by Russia is plainly wrong. As for who did what, that will never be fully known. It is known that at least in the early months of the 2022 war, and especially in Mariupol, Ukraine troops near the frontlines based themselves in civilains areas and used human shields extensively.
Malaysian flight, wonder who shot that down?
Quite probably was a Donestk PR crew seriously screwing up, though we have no details. What the flight was doing anywhere near a war zone is also a question.
Well I've found this prior to the verdict but nothing since. Still blaming the pilot for flying too low or being in the wrong place. Of course even though 2 Russians have been found guilty no condemnation from you
And afterwards I said it was just as I said. Condemnation... it's a conflict that has been fanned into a war which is condemnation enough for me. As for the specifics, I missed where there is an analysis of the exact process of decision making in choosing to fire the missile. Do I think they aimed to shoot down an airliner? Not at all, makes no sense whatsoever except in the mind of a psycho, but then the military and war moreso is a herding ground for psychos.
The height of the flight, the pilot's decsion making I am not questioning although I think it was said they made a turn slightly, which may have put them in danger?? I question the wisdom of unnecessarily flying over a war zone - mental. I doubt you'd be happy in a plane doing that.
Excellent whataboutery there BRR no more than expected
Seems you don't understand whataboutery except as a Internet forum rhetoric to try to out someone down and avoid dealing with an issue. No need for it.
-
But...but...&amp;quot;We don't know the details&amp;quot;.
Billy the wild west judge who doesn't need to know the details before pulling the trapdoor for the noose to do it's work. And if later is found to be wrong puts it down to bad luck. Nutter.
There have been two investigations and a legal trial, all of which found clear evidence that the missile was Russian, provided and fired by Russian forces.
But your precise words were that we didn't have details.
You do this every single time. You blow smoke across any and every issue where Russia is clearly at fault. You are really not worth giving the time of day to.
You sketch out some details, not all tho, noted. And your explicit conclusion is what? Or just more rhetoric?
Feck knows how your employees are supposed to understand what is going on when you can't talk straight. I'm seeing Grace Brothers.
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WE WILL NOT FUND PUTINS WAR!!
https://news.yahoo.com/uk-quietly-imports-tens-millions-122300070.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly90LmNvLw&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAADLgzz5fp7amx5jNlmio1JzzkuC0IvK-0H3VeIh2utQZn7i_NCsmIVE-QRp9DJ6Lj3T-G4szO3_uuS-UHDtuv5ekdIBNKTo1Y5k9E3Iu-G8J9chij_MWL3C3lLQog8b4ShzNpQ6tNHTZciOol7_JcBXUaSw8HrFuwXxDGZA6WNmf
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The minions are so easily conned, scammed, deceived, abused.... and then still volunteer to go to war for these monsters.
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Bern saying this for years
https://mobile.twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1595390115211247617
The far left and far right have a hell of a lot in common.
Many of the key British far right today (Claire Fox, Mick Hume as examples) were Revolutionary Communists 25 years ago.
And I'm sure that Corbynistas would not agree that Russia is a terrorist state, despite us seeing Russian terrorism on our screens every single day.
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Bern saying this for years
https://mobile.twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1595390115211247617
The far left and far right have a hell of a lot in common.
Many of the key British far right today (Claire Fox, Mick Hume as examples) were Revolutionary Communists 25 years ago.
And I'm sure that Corbynistas would not agree that Russia is a terrorist state, despite us seeing Russian terrorism on our screens every single day.
This very thread being a perfect example of far left and far right posters having the same interest in supporting & promoting Russia.
Russia has funded the far left in the UK for 100 years - they see that source of funding going. The far right like what they see in a fascist dictator and want to promote his ideas here.
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I never thought I'd would get to the point where I considered escalation to be an answer but the west cannot stand by and watch these barbarians kill, freeze and starve the population of Ukraine.
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Bern saying this for years
https://mobile.twitter.com/PhillipsPOBrien/status/1595390115211247617
The far left and far right have a hell of a lot in common.
Many of the key British far right today (Claire Fox, Mick Hume as examples) were Revolutionary Communists 25 years ago.
And I'm sure that Corbynistas would not agree that Russia is a terrorist state, despite us seeing Russian terrorism on our screens every single day.
Is the shelling of Donetsk, for example, terrorism in your eyes?
And if you're into labelling states as terrorist or not, as opposed to identifying what you might consider terrorist actions, what about the UK, France, USA for example?
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I never thought I'd would get to the point where I considered escalation to be an answer but the west cannot stand by and watch these barbarians kill, freeze and starve the population of Ukraine.
So what do you want the West to do next?
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I never thought I'd would get to the point where I considered escalation to be an answer but the west cannot stand by and watch these barbarians kill, freeze and starve the population of Ukraine.
So what do you want the West to do next?
If the west cannot stop the attacks by every supplying every means of defence possible to the Ukraine and screwing every possible sanction down to the utmost give them the means to attack russian supply lines in russia.
Your turn Steve.
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I never thought I'd would get to the point where I considered escalation to be an answer but the west cannot stand by and watch these barbarians kill, freeze and starve the population of Ukraine.
So what do you want the West to do next?
If the west cannot stop the attacks by every supplying every means of defence possible to the Ukraine and screwing every possible sanction down to the utmost give them the means to attack russian supply lines in russia.
Your turn Steve.
Increasing sanctions to include....?
Supplying how many air defence systems? Which type? I assume you meant air defence?
And then you're wanting Ukraine to be supplied with longer range shells and missiles to attack Russian territory?
You think that will help with food, heat, safety of anyone at all?
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QI:
''Activists embarrassed Russian embassy staff in Australia. Now the Kremlin is targeting them''
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-11-25/svoboda-russia-activists-listed-putin-undesirable/101692684
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And some better news ...........
''Putin’s grip on regional allies loosens again after Armenia snub
Damaging optics of ‘family’ photo at CSTO summit highlights fragility of Russia’s influence in wake of war in Ukraine''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/nov/25/putinsgrip-regional-allies-loosen-again-after-armenia-snub-csto-summit
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Interesting insights from wounded Ukrainian soldiers.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/09/07/ukraine-kherson-offensive-casualties-ammunition/
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Interesting insights from wounded Ukrainian soldiers.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/09/07/ukraine-kherson-offensive-casualties-ammunition/
Thanks for that insight into the bravery of men fighting for their country, Ukraine.
To lose a limb & say “It was worth it”, is very humbling to those of us who can only watch from the ‘sidelines’.
To have fought in such ‘a theatre’ & hear men say “I cannot wait to get back to the fighting” makes you realise the peoples of Ukraine
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Interesting rumours today expressed by Russia about Poland showing interest in taking on three oblasts from Ukraine, ones that used to be part of Poland until 1945. This woud start with referenda.
That would leave two isolated oblasts in that area separated by land from Ukraine. One of these was Hungarian/Czecholslovakian last century and has 13% ethnic Hungarians living there. The other the same but with Romania.
Possibly just Russia trying to create divisions and that's all, possibly Poland are looking at all options - why wouldn't they? If Ukraine does collapse then these areas would likely benefit from becoming part of Poland in terms of perceived safety, and definitely in terms of prosperity.
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Interesting insights from wounded Ukrainian soldiers.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2022/09/07/ukraine-kherson-offensive-casualties-ammunition/
Thanks for that insight into the bravery of men fighting for their country, Ukraine.
To lose a limb & say “It was worth it”, is very humbling to those of us who can only watch from the ‘sidelines’.
To have fought in such ‘a theatre’ & hear men say “I cannot wait to get back to the fighting” makes you realise the peoples of Ukraine
If that's all you take from that article then you could make a spangle of an unhinged commander. Good for a leader in a Monty Python tale perhaps?
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Russian political commentator calling on national TV for Russia to up the ante on war crimes.
https://mobile.twitter.com/StratcomCentre/status/1597868964922949634
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EU President says 100k Ukrainian troops dead.
https://twitter.com/Area5Z/status/1597906017144410118
But yes, quick panic edit out of that bit from later releases of the vid.
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Russian political commentator calling on national TV for Russia to up the ante on war crimes.
https://mobile.twitter.com/StratcomCentre/status/1597868964922949634
Not really. More like telling the west to deal wth the problems it has created in interfering with Ukraine and creating this proxy war. For it to give genuine aid, actually take citizens in rather than leave them in a war zone it is fueling and throw sacks of rice at them.
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Russian political commentator calling on national TV for Russia to up the ante on war crimes.
https://mobile.twitter.com/StratcomCentre/status/1597868964922949634
Not really. More like telling the west to deal wth the problems it has created in interfering with Ukraine and creating this proxy war. For it to give genuine aid, actually take citizens in rather than leave them in a war zone it is fueling and throw sacks of rice at them.
You keep up with the ‘Pro Russian’ anti ‘NATO’ filtering of news & the ‘Order of Merit’ is surely only a knock on the door away.
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Russian political commentator calling on national TV for Russia to up the ante on war crimes.
https://mobile.twitter.com/StratcomCentre/status/1597868964922949634
Not really. More like telling the west to deal wth the problems it has created in interfering with Ukraine and creating this proxy war. For it to give genuine aid, actually take citizens in rather than leave them in a war zone it is fueling and throw sacks of rice at them.
You keep up with the ‘Pro Russian’ anti ‘NATO’ filtering of news & the ‘Order of Merit’ is surely only a knock on the door away.
Did you ever utter anything with content? :laugh:
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Russian political commentator calling on national TV for Russia to up the ante on war crimes.
https://mobile.twitter.com/StratcomCentre/status/1597868964922949634
Not really. More like telling the west to deal wth the problems it has created in interfering with Ukraine and creating this proxy war. For it to give genuine aid, actually take citizens in rather than leave them in a war zone it is fueling and throw sacks of rice at them.
That really is the funniest thing I have read on this site in the last 5 years. Brilliant!
BobG
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Russian political commentator calling on national TV for Russia to up the ante on war crimes.
https://mobile.twitter.com/StratcomCentre/status/1597868964922949634
Not really. More like telling the west to deal wth the problems it has created in interfering with Ukraine and creating this proxy war. For it to give genuine aid, actually take citizens in rather than leave them in a war zone it is fueling and throw sacks of rice at them.
And that’s what you would call ‘content’?!
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Russian political commentator calling on national TV for Russia to up the ante on war crimes.
https://mobile.twitter.com/StratcomCentre/status/1597868964922949634
Not really. More like telling the west to deal wth the problems it has created in interfering with Ukraine and creating this proxy war. For it to give genuine aid, actually take citizens in rather than leave them in a war zone it is fueling and throw sacks of rice at them.
And that’s what you would call ‘content’?!
Let me hold your hand here. BST posted a twitter link with his personal take on that. That would be content.
I disagreed with BST's take on that twitter link, and gave my interpretation - actually just repeating what was said on the tweet. That woud be content.
You rhetorically ask, "And that’s what you would call ‘content’?!" That would not be content but would be a question, which I have now answered... or it would be if it weren't asked snarkily. As it is, it's just a whinging reactive type dig. Not content, not a question.
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Russian political commentator calling on national TV for Russia to up the ante on war crimes.
https://mobile.twitter.com/StratcomCentre/status/1597868964922949634
Not really. More like telling the west to deal wth the problems it has created in interfering with Ukraine and creating this proxy war. For it to give genuine aid, actually take citizens in rather than leave them in a war zone it is fueling and throw sacks of rice at them.
I get that you try to ignore facts that you don't need to look at. I get that. You've been doing it throughout the war.
What I truly don't understand is you looking at something and totally whitewashing it.
Here's the man's exact words.
"What we need to make sure is that Ukraine is forced to send another 10-15 million refugees to Europe...Strikes on infrastructure should throw the life of the entire Ukrainian state into disarray."
That's a major Russian political commentator calling, on national TV, for Russia to commit one of the biggest war crimes in human history.
And you just "meh" it. Do you ever look at yourself in the mirror and wonder how you became this person?
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War crimes like NATO in Serbia and Libya? The US in Afghanistan, in Iraq. Not to mention Vietnam. Far worse was done in all those cases.
And you just "meh" the US etc instigating and fanning this proxy war. One that is progressively likely to kill multiples more. How many hundreds of thousands more deaths of Ukraine's are worth that?
Not to mention the escalation problems with Poland now considering sending its NATO boots in there.
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You genuinely think what was done in Serbia, Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan was "far worse" than trying to "throw the entire infrastructure of a country into disarray" with the express intention of forcing 10-15 million people to become refugees?
Genuinely?
And even if you do (which is ridiculous) does that justify ignoring what this person is saying?
You are beyond hope.
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What do you say about the fact that those 'many hundreds of thousands more deaths of Ukraines' would be entirely the work of your blessed Russia?
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What do you say about the fact that those 'many hundreds of thousands more deaths of Ukraines' would be entirely the work of your blessed Russia?
Keep up old fella!
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You genuinely think what was done in Serbia, Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan was "far worse" than trying to "throw the entire infrastructure of a country into disarray" with the express intention of forcing 10-15 million people to become refugees?
Genuinely?
And even if you do (which is ridiculous) does that justify ignoring what this person is saying?
You are beyond hope.
Oh dear, I forgot, the US and pals go into countries winning by renovating houses, building hospitals, restaurants, playgrounds, and supermarkets? Wake up from that Sergeant Pepper dreamland! Seems like you need to watch some other war coverage than that ww2 on the History Channel.
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That's the end of my interaction with you BRR. If you are incapable of properly appraising what the Russians are doing and saying without flipping into whataboutery, you're not worth another moment of attention.
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What do you say about the fact that those 'many hundreds of thousands more deaths of Ukraines' would be entirely the work of your blessed Russia?
Keep up old fella!
Now that’s a ‘snarky’ dig.
No question asked.
No content needed.
It’s an observation. An observation that you make (but ‘mask’ in what you perceive as ‘content’) such digs in the majority of your posts.
You’re the sort of person whose ‘black cat’ will always be blacker than my ‘black cat’.
It’s my conclusion that you deliberately goad in order to ‘feed’ on any response, even when that response includes ‘proper facts’ & reports.
Why, because you’re a deluded, obstinate inanely sad person therefore, (once you’ve finished & enjoyed your feeding frenzy on this post) I think I’ll follow BST’s lead & leave you to wallow in your own ‘apocalyptic world’.
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Russian political commentator calling on national TV for Russia to up the ante on war crimes.
https://mobile.twitter.com/StratcomCentre/status/1597868964922949634
Not really. More like telling the west to deal wth the problems it has created in interfering with Ukraine and creating this proxy war. For it to give genuine aid, actually take citizens in rather than leave them in a war zone it is fueling and throw sacks of rice at them.
I get that you try to ignore facts that you don't need to look at. I get that. You've been doing it throughout the war.
What I truly don't understand is you looking at something and totally whitewashing it.
Here's the man's exact words.
"What we need to make sure is that Ukraine is forced to send another 10-15 million refugees to Europe...Strikes on infrastructure should throw the life of the entire Ukrainian state into disarray."
That's a major Russian political commentator calling, on national TV, for Russia to commit one of the biggest war crimes in human history.
And you just "meh" it. Do you ever look at yourself in the mirror and wonder how you became this person?
It's war, there are no rules.
The US, EU, NATO are responsible for pushing Russia into this. That clown Zelensky would be happy for us all to freeze to death on behalf of his pirate regime. How many British pensioners will die because of his proxy war because they can't turn on the heating.Meanwhile the US is coining it in on gas sales to europe.
https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/commodities/us-natural-gas-exports-europe-surge-energy-crisis-trader-profits-2022-8
-
Russian political commentator calling on national TV for Russia to up the ante on war crimes.
https://mobile.twitter.com/StratcomCentre/status/1597868964922949634
Not really. More like telling the west to deal wth the problems it has created in interfering with Ukraine and creating this proxy war. For it to give genuine aid, actually take citizens in rather than leave them in a war zone it is fueling and throw sacks of rice at them.
I get that you try to ignore facts that you don't need to look at. I get that. You've been doing it throughout the war.
What I truly don't understand is you looking at something and totally whitewashing it.
Here's the man's exact words.
"What we need to make sure is that Ukraine is forced to send another 10-15 million refugees to Europe...Strikes on infrastructure should throw the life of the entire Ukrainian state into disarray."
That's a major Russian political commentator calling, on national TV, for Russia to commit one of the biggest war crimes in human history.
And you just "meh" it. Do you ever look at yourself in the mirror and wonder how you became this person?
It's war, there are no rules.
The US, EU, NATO are responsible for pushing Russia into this. That clown Zelensky would be happy for us all to freeze to death on behalf of his pirate regime. How many British pensioners will die because of his proxy war because they can't turn on the heating.Meanwhile the US is coining it in on gas sales to europe.
https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/commodities/us-natural-gas-exports-europe-surge-energy-crisis-trader-profits-2022-8
Oh but there ARE rules in war.
The fact that you think "war" equates to "anything is acceptable" is not really surprising given your track record in here. But it is no less disgusting for that.
-
Russian political commentator calling on national TV for Russia to up the ante on war crimes.
https://mobile.twitter.com/StratcomCentre/status/1597868964922949634
Not really. More like telling the west to deal wth the problems it has created in interfering with Ukraine and creating this proxy war. For it to give genuine aid, actually take citizens in rather than leave them in a war zone it is fueling and throw sacks of rice at them.
I get that you try to ignore facts that you don't need to look at. I get that. You've been doing it throughout the war.
What I truly don't understand is you looking at something and totally whitewashing it.
Here's the man's exact words.
"What we need to make sure is that Ukraine is forced to send another 10-15 million refugees to Europe...Strikes on infrastructure should throw the life of the entire Ukrainian state into disarray."
That's a major Russian political commentator calling, on national TV, for Russia to commit one of the biggest war crimes in human history.
And you just "meh" it. Do you ever look at yourself in the mirror and wonder how you became this person?
It's war, there are no rules.
The US, EU, NATO are responsible for pushing Russia into this. That clown Zelensky would be happy for us all to freeze to death on behalf of his pirate regime. How many British pensioners will die because of his proxy war because they can't turn on the heating.Meanwhile the US is coining it in on gas sales to europe.
https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/commodities/us-natural-gas-exports-europe-surge-energy-crisis-trader-profits-2022-8
Have I missed something? Did Zelensky invade Belarus?
Or is he & the people of Ukraine still engaged in a war started by ‘Pirate Putin’?
If you’re going to point your finger (no doubt with an outstretched hand just above head height) at those responsible for the hike in gas & oil prices, try pointing it in the right direction i.e., further east than Ukraine.
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What do you say about the fact that those 'many hundreds of thousands more deaths of Ukraines' would be entirely the work of your blessed Russia?
Keep up old fella!
Now that’s a ‘snarky’ dig.
No question asked.
No content needed.
It’s an observation. An observation that you make (but ‘mask’ in what you perceive as ‘content’) such digs in the majority of your posts.
You’re the sort of person whose ‘black cat’ will always be blacker than my ‘black cat’.
It’s my conclusion that you deliberately goad in order to ‘feed’ on any response, even when that response includes ‘proper facts’ & reports.
Why, because you’re a deluded, obstinate inanely sad person therefore, (once you’ve finished & enjoyed your feeding frenzy on this post) I think I’ll follow BST’s lead & leave you to wallow in your own ‘apocalyptic world’.
Missed the point. It's not my Russians and certainly not blessed, I've made that clear, he obviously missed reading that, hence "keep up".
He took the same route as many on here, including you, who will see someone as the enemy just because they don't buy into the narrative they have chosen. And, as per the point here, gloss over anything that goes against that aggressively expressed viewpoint. It's a cheap and blind way of discussing, but I guess you have your securities to grasp onto. Bye!
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Russian political commentator calling on national TV for Russia to up the ante on war crimes.
https://mobile.twitter.com/StratcomCentre/status/1597868964922949634
Not really. More like telling the west to deal wth the problems it has created in interfering with Ukraine and creating this proxy war. For it to give genuine aid, actually take citizens in rather than leave them in a war zone it is fueling and throw sacks of rice at them.
I get that you try to ignore facts that you don't need to look at. I get that. You've been doing it throughout the war.
What I truly don't understand is you looking at something and totally whitewashing it.
Here's the man's exact words.
&quot;What we need to make sure is that Ukraine is forced to send another 10-15 million refugees to Europe...Strikes on infrastructure should throw the life of the entire Ukrainian state into disarray.&quot;
That's a major Russian political commentator calling, on national TV, for Russia to commit one of the biggest war crimes in human history.
And you just &quot;meh&quot; it. Do you ever look at yourself in the mirror and wonder how you became this person?
It's war, there are no rules.
The US, EU, NATO are responsible for pushing Russia into this. That clown Zelensky would be happy for us all to freeze to death on behalf of his pirate regime. How many British pensioners will die because of his proxy war because they can't turn on the heating.Meanwhile the US is coining it in on gas sales to europe.
https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/commodities/us-natural-gas-exports-europe-surge-energy-crisis-trader-profits-2022-8
Oh but there ARE rules in war.
The fact that you think "war" equates to "anything is acceptable" is not really surprising given your track record in here. But it is no less disgusting for that.
BST very able to see Russian crimes, unable to see stark Ukraine, US, NATO, UK ones. No surprise there, though to be fair he does believe the rules only came into play this year, he and the EU President.
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Russian political commentator calling on national TV for Russia to up the ante on war crimes.
https://mobile.twitter.com/StratcomCentre/status/1597868964922949634
Not really. More like telling the west to deal wth the problems it has created in interfering with Ukraine and creating this proxy war. For it to give genuine aid, actually take citizens in rather than leave them in a war zone it is fueling and throw sacks of rice at them.
I get that you try to ignore facts that you don't need to look at. I get that. You've been doing it throughout the war.
What I truly don't understand is you looking at something and totally whitewashing it.
Here's the man's exact words.
&amp;quot;What we need to make sure is that Ukraine is forced to send another 10-15 million refugees to Europe...Strikes on infrastructure should throw the life of the entire Ukrainian state into disarray.&amp;quot;
That's a major Russian political commentator calling, on national TV, for Russia to commit one of the biggest war crimes in human history.
And you just &amp;quot;meh&amp;quot; it. Do you ever look at yourself in the mirror and wonder how you became this person?
It's war, there are no rules.
The US, EU, NATO are responsible for pushing Russia into this. That clown Zelensky would be happy for us all to freeze to death on behalf of his pirate regime. How many British pensioners will die because of his proxy war because they can't turn on the heating.Meanwhile the US is coining it in on gas sales to europe.
https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/commodities/us-natural-gas-exports-europe-surge-energy-crisis-trader-profits-2022-8
Oh but there ARE rules in war.
The fact that you think &quot;war&quot; equates to &quot;anything is acceptable&quot; is not really surprising given your track record in here. But it is no less disgusting for that.
BST very able to see Russian crimes, unable to see stark Ukraine, US, NATO, UK ones. No surprise there, though to be fair he does believe the rules only came into play this year, he and the EU President.
What a f**king childish contribution to a very important discussion.
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Russian political commentator calling on national TV for Russia to up the ante on war crimes.
https://mobile.twitter.com/StratcomCentre/status/1597868964922949634
Not really. More like telling the west to deal wth the problems it has created in interfering with Ukraine and creating this proxy war. For it to give genuine aid, actually take citizens in rather than leave them in a war zone it is fueling and throw sacks of rice at them.
I get that you try to ignore facts that you don't need to look at. I get that. You've been doing it throughout the war.
What I truly don't understand is you looking at something and totally whitewashing it.
Here's the man's exact words.
&amp;quot;What we need to make sure is that Ukraine is forced to send another 10-15 million refugees to Europe...Strikes on infrastructure should throw the life of the entire Ukrainian state into disarray.&amp;quot;
That's a major Russian political commentator calling, on national TV, for Russia to commit one of the biggest war crimes in human history.
And you just &amp;quot;meh&amp;quot; it. Do you ever look at yourself in the mirror and wonder how you became this person?
It's war, there are no rules.
The US, EU, NATO are responsible for pushing Russia into this. That clown Zelensky would be happy for us all to freeze to death on behalf of his pirate regime. How many British pensioners will die because of his proxy war because they can't turn on the heating.Meanwhile the US is coining it in on gas sales to europe.
https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/commodities/us-natural-gas-exports-europe-surge-energy-crisis-trader-profits-2022-8
Oh but there ARE rules in war.
The fact that you think &quot;war&quot; equates to &quot;anything is acceptable&quot; is not really surprising given your track record in here. But it is no less disgusting for that.
BST very able to see Russian crimes, unable to see stark Ukraine, US, NATO, UK ones. No surprise there, though to be fair he does believe the rules only came into play this year, he and the EU President.
BRR unable to see and excuser of Russian war crimes - but it's someone elses fault other than the perpetrator. It's always someone else's fault.
-
But the US...
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Russian political commentator calling on national TV for Russia to up the ante on war crimes.
https://mobile.twitter.com/StratcomCentre/status/1597868964922949634
Not really. More like telling the west to deal wth the problems it has created in interfering with Ukraine and creating this proxy war. For it to give genuine aid, actually take citizens in rather than leave them in a war zone it is fueling and throw sacks of rice at them.
I get that you try to ignore facts that you don't need to look at. I get that. You've been doing it throughout the war.
What I truly don't understand is you looking at something and totally whitewashing it.
Here's the man's exact words.
&amp;amp;quot;What we need to make sure is that Ukraine is forced to send another 10-15 million refugees to Europe...Strikes on infrastructure should throw the life of the entire Ukrainian state into disarray.&amp;amp;quot;
That's a major Russian political commentator calling, on national TV, for Russia to commit one of the biggest war crimes in human history.
And you just &amp;amp;quot;meh&amp;amp;quot; it. Do you ever look at yourself in the mirror and wonder how you became this person?
It's war, there are no rules.
The US, EU, NATO are responsible for pushing Russia into this. That clown Zelensky would be happy for us all to freeze to death on behalf of his pirate regime. How many British pensioners will die because of his proxy war because they can't turn on the heating.Meanwhile the US is coining it in on gas sales to europe.
https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/commodities/us-natural-gas-exports-europe-surge-energy-crisis-trader-profits-2022-8
Oh but there ARE rules in war.
The fact that you think &amp;quot;war&amp;quot; equates to &amp;quot;anything is acceptable&amp;quot; is not really surprising given your track record in here. But it is no less disgusting for that.
BST very able to see Russian crimes, unable to see stark Ukraine, US, NATO, UK ones. No surprise there, though to be fair he does believe the rules only came into play this year, he and the EU President.
What a f**king childish contribution to a very important discussion.
Try replying to the topic as well as not being a total twonk with you baby potty mouth, jeez! Where's the moods and bans?
Are you saying the rules apply to all or not?
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The difference between us BRR this.
You don't know shit about my opinions on the rights and wrongs of previous conflicts.
I DO know what you think about this one. You have responded to a Russian commentator screaming for his country to commit a war crime on an almost unprecedented scale, with whataboutery.
That's truly and deeply disgusting.
Don't you dare try to claim the moral high ground.
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War crimes like NATO in Serbia and Libya? The US in Afghanistan, in Iraq. Not to mention Vietnam. Far worse was done in all those cases.
And you just "meh" the US etc instigating and fanning this proxy war. One that is progressively likely to kill multiples more. How many hundreds of thousands more deaths of Ukraine's are worth that?
Not to mention the escalation problems with Poland now considering sending its NATO boots in there.
In an effort to try and contextualise the extent of various military operations overstepping the marks laid down in the Geneva Convention, this excellent article lays out the questions that should be asked.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63754808
Ask yourself the level of 'proportionality' involved in Russian 'operations' in Ukraine in terms of civilian suffering and death versus military gains and compare that with other conflicts.
Vietnam (which was not NATO) was awful but it was nearly 50 years ago, was seen as a total failure, rightly condemned, and IMHO nothing else has come close since, the closest probably being in Syria
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11494595/amp/Vladimir-Putin-fell-stairs-home-soiled-himself.html
Daily Fail with this gem
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The difference between us BRR this.
You don't know shit about my opinions on the rights and wrongs of previous conflicts.
I DO know what you think about this one. You have responded to a Russian commentator screaming for his country to commit a war crime on an almost unprecedented scale, with whataboutery.
That's truly and deeply disgusting.
Don't you dare try to claim the moral high ground.
First, I know your language on these forums is one of the worst. Second, you tend to play the man, not the ball. Check yourself out. You can play the ball quite easily - kinda like a Louis Suarez of these boards.
Re the attacking of infastructure - that has always been the way in war. NATO, US, UK, and Russia are all guilty of this if it's a crime. Where we disagree it seems is that changing the rules and commentary on this mid game, as the UK and US have done, is hypocritical. That stands out and I find it bizarre that you don't acknowledge that.
Russia could easily have gone for the infastructure earlier. They didn't because they partly at least didn't think they needed to. Even when they were struggling they didn't. That may have been to do with being economical with their munitions on attacking the power infastructure - obviously better to do that with winter near. But the rail and road infastructure could have been attacked far sooner, so why not? Maybe because of imprecise missiles? Maybe other reassons.
Now, one vid of a *commentator* is hardly newsworthy. Maybe you can explain how you think it is?
Moral highground? I never mentioned it. Apparently that's your personal issue. I only see you are blinkered and rigid in your comments on almost everything. That's a personal characteristic you have, which no doubt has it's positives in your life, but leaves itself bare to be called out in discussion.
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War crimes like NATO in Serbia and Libya? The US in Afghanistan, in Iraq. Not to mention Vietnam. Far worse was done in all those cases.
And you just &quot;meh&quot; the US etc instigating and fanning this proxy war. One that is progressively likely to kill multiples more. How many hundreds of thousands more deaths of Ukraine's are worth that?
Not to mention the escalation problems with Poland now considering sending its NATO boots in there.
In an effort to try and contextualise the extent of various military operations overstepping the marks laid down in the Geneva Convention, this excellent article lays out the questions that should be asked.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63754808
Ask yourself the level of 'proportionality' involved in Russian 'operations' in Ukraine in terms of civilian suffering and death versus military gains and compare that with other conflicts.
Vietnam (which was not NATO) was awful but it was nearly 50 years ago, was seen as a total failure, rightly condemned, and IMHO nothing else has come close since, the closest probably being in Syria
Reasonable article but written in a way that focuses on the angle that Russia is on weight trying to demoralise the population.
It could have been more specific on the weights in previous conflicts.
It could have referred to the rail network in terms of both direct attacks and power attacks. This is undoubetly a significant part of the picture, as can be seen currently with large amounts of Ukraine armour stuck in Kherson.
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The difference between us BRR this.
You don't know shit about my opinions on the rights and wrongs of previous conflicts.
I DO know what you think about this one. You have responded to a Russian commentator screaming for his country to commit a war crime on an almost unprecedented scale, with whataboutery.
That's truly and deeply disgusting.
Don't you dare try to claim the moral high ground.
First, I know your language on these forums is one of the worst. Second, you tend to play the man, not the ball. Check yourself out. You can play the ball quite easily - kinda like a Louis Suarez of these boards.
Re the attacking of infastructure - that has always been the way in war. NATO, US, UK, and Russia are all guilty of this if it's a crime. Where we disagree it seems is that changing the rules and commentary on this mid game, as the UK and US have done, is hypocritical. That stands out and I find it bizarre that you don't acknowledge that.
Russia could easily have gone for the infastructure earlier. They didn't because they partly at least didn't think they needed to. Even when they were struggling they didn't. That may have been to do with being economical with their munitions on attacking the power infastructure - obviously better to do that with winter near. But the rail and road infastructure could have been attacked far sooner, so why not? Maybe because of imprecise missiles? Maybe other reassons.
Now, one vid of a *commentator* is hardly newsworthy. Maybe you can explain how you think it is?
Moral highground? I never mentioned it. Apparently that's your personal issue. I only see you are blinkered and rigid in your comments on almost everything. That's a personal characteristic you have, which no doubt has it's positives in your life, but leaves itself bare to be called out in discussion.
Russia didn’t go for the infrastructure earlier because they thought they would annex the whole of Ukraine, so therefore the rebuilding costs would be on them, after their defeats in battle and withdrawals the realisation dawned on them that they won’t win the whole of Ukraine, so they decided to drop missile’s left right and centre and let someone else pay for the reconstruction
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11494595/amp/Vladimir-Putin-fell-stairs-home-soiled-himself.html
Daily Fail with this gem
Absolute Karma, seeing as he thought he was making us all sh*t ourselves with his constant nuclear threats.
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Anyone who’s never shit themselves has never lived
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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11494595/amp/Vladimir-Putin-fell-stairs-home-soiled-himself.html
Daily Fail with this gem
Absolute Karma, seeing as he thought he was making us all sh*t ourselves with his constant nuclear threats.
I think you'll find the nuke threats were largely explanations of what would happen if the US upped the ante. On a much lesser level to what the US did with Cuba/USSR way back, although yhey were far more close to the trigger when it wasn't even a conflict as such.
Handy for western propaganda to further tar Russia and provide income to washing powder manufacturers.
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Anyone who’s never shit themselves has never lived
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
So true!
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Talks of peace talks appearing. Wether they do or not will remain to be seen.
Russia will not give up the Donbas otherwise the whole saga will be seen as a total abject failure.
Ukraine won’t want to concede any land at all.
No compromise from either side.
No peace.
Ever.
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At least until Putin is toppled.
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To the majority of the general public in Russia it won't matter a bit what putin wins or loses cos they'll never know while the state controls the media.
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I suspect things will end late next year with Russia driven out of everywhere but Donbas and Crimea. They will keep those areas. There will be no Western support for Ukraine engaging in military activity to takeover those two areas.
Putin will have caused the deaths of maybe 200,000 people, hundreds of billions of dollars of damage in Ukraine and the long term devastation of the Russian economy, to end up where he started on the ground. And he'll be a much diminished figure, out on a leash by Xi Jingpin for the rest of his life.
A bully, a thug, a fool, a coward and a failure.
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A long hard winter in store for millions of Ukrainians. And Russians. In fact for many in Europe too.
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A long hard winter in store for millions of Ukrainians. And Russians. In fact for many in Europe too.
Even more so if the cap on the price of Russian oil results in higher fuel prices.
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There's a big question mark over Ukraine being able to keep up with its current rate of artillery fire, a rate well below Russia already. That's including taking into account Western supplies, which are limited.
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The big question mark coming from...?
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There's a big question mark over Ukraine being able to keep up with its current rate of artillery fire, a rate well below Russia already. That's including taking into account Western supplies, which are limited.
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A long hard winter in store for millions of Ukrainians. And Russians. In fact for many in Europe too.
Even more so if the cap on the price of Russian oil results in higher fuel prices.
You going to talk us through how the price cap results in significantly higher oil prices for Europe?
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Russia sell less oil.
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The big question mark coming from...?
One eg from a while back, https://amp-abc-net-au.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/amp.abc.net.au/article/101515370?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw%3D%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=16701257215808&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.abc.net.au%2Fnews%2F2022-10-08%2Fus-running-out-of-ammunitions-to-send-to-ukraine-war%2F101515370
And then there's the hundred Soviet pion self propelled 203mm guns where there's a limited stockpile of ammo, unless Russia provides more.
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I suspect things will end late next year with Russia driven out of everywhere but Donbas and Crimea. They will keep those areas. There will be no Western support for Ukraine engaging in military activity to takeover those two areas.
Putin will have caused the deaths of maybe 200,000 people, hundreds of billions of dollars of damage in Ukraine and the long term devastation of the Russian economy, to end up where he started on the ground. And he'll be a much diminished figure, out on a leash by Xi Jingpin for the rest of his life.
A bully, a thug, a fool, a coward and a failure.
Except the US instigated all this.
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A long hard winter in store for millions of Ukrainians. And Russians. In fact for many in Europe too.
Even more so if the cap on the price of Russian oil results in higher fuel prices.
I thoght we were importing Russian oil through 3rd party countries
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I suspect things will end late next year with Russia driven out of everywhere but Donbas and Crimea. They will keep those areas. There will be no Western support for Ukraine engaging in military activity to takeover those two areas.
Putin will have caused the deaths of maybe 200,000 people, hundreds of billions of dollars of damage in Ukraine and the long term devastation of the Russian economy, to end up where he started on the ground. And he'll be a much diminished figure, out on a leash by Xi Jingpin for the rest of his life.
A bully, a thug, a fool, a coward and a failure.
Except the US instigated all this.
Not what Putin said. He blamed Lenin and Khrushchev for giving away land to create a false state that had been Russian 'from time immemorial':
Putin claimed that modern Ukraine was created by the Russian communists and that Vladimir Lenin and his associates started this process right after the 1917 revolution in a brutal way, by dividing Russian lands. He specifically added: “Nobody asked the millions of people living there what they thought".
"And in 1954, Khrushchev took Crimea away from Russia for some reason and also gave it to Ukraine. In effect, this is how the territory of modern Ukraine was formed."
https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/02/22/putin-speech-ukraine-war-history-russia/
If you are going to spout Putin's propoganda at least be accurate about it.
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Although there are still numerous aerial and artillery attacks on Ukraine, observers have wondered for a while why the number of drone attacks has fallen. THey thought Russia had run low on stocks and were waiting for more from Iran.
However it turns out that as Iran is a hot climate where they were made and tested for use there & they don't work properly if the temperature drops too low - as in a Ukrainian winter! Ooops.
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1599416372018044928
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Although there are still numerous aerial and artillery attacks on Ukraine, observers have wondered for a while why the number of drone attacks has fallen. THey thought Russia had run low on stocks and were waiting for more from Iran.
However it turns out that as Iran is a hot climate where they were made and tested for use there & they don't work properly if the temperature drops too low - as in a Ukrainian winter! Ooops.
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1599416372018044928
Oh dear....it seems like the lack of heating is having a negative effect on Ukraine military intelligentsia. Heating obviously off in Wilts Towers too :facepalm:
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Although there are still numerous aerial and artillery attacks on Ukraine, observers have wondered for a while why the number of drone attacks has fallen. THey thought Russia had run low on stocks and were waiting for more from Iran.
However it turns out that as Iran is a hot climate where they were made and tested for use there &amp; they don't work properly if the temperature drops too low - as in a Ukrainian winter! Ooops.
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1599416372018044928
Oh dear....it seems like the lack of heating is having a negative effect on Ukraine military intelligentsia. Heating obviously off in Wilts Towers too :facepalm:
Woodburner working fine in Wiltshire land ta. Unlike Putin's drones...
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US set to increase mutions production six-fold to ensure supply to Ukraine for at least next 3 years.
Funding already agreed for a tripling of supply and now Army have asked for funding to double that.
https://www.defensenews.com/pentagon/2022/12/05/army-plans-dramatic-ammo-production-boost-as-ukraine-drains-stocks/
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Over 3 years.
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Over 3 years.
Will make sure Putin is screwed thoroughly into the dirt.
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Over 3 years.
Will make sure Putin is screwed thoroughly into the dirt.
Not sure you understood the info, no change for a good few months, and then a gradual build up, so looks like Ukraine will be vulnerable for a while. And then even by 3 years, it's barely an improvement on what Ukraine has been able to do. I don't think 3 years really figures in this.
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Over 3 years.
Will make sure Putin is screwed thoroughly into the dirt.
Not sure you understood the info, no change for a good few months, and then a gradual build up, so looks like Ukraine will be vulnerable for a while. And then even by 3 years, it's barely an improvement on what Ukraine has been able to do. I don't think 3 years really figures in this.
Clearly you haven't understood the info. The US will be able to provide at least the current rate of ammo supply to Ukraine for at least the next 3 years. Most likely 6.
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Over 3 years.
Will make sure Putin is screwed thoroughly into the dirt.
Not sure you understood the info, no change for a good few months, and then a gradual build up, so looks like Ukraine will be vulnerable for a while. And then even by 3 years, it's barely an improvement on what Ukraine has been able to do. I don't think 3 years really figures in this.
Clearly you haven't understood the info. The US will be able to provide at least the current rate of ammo supply to Ukraine for at least the next 3 years. Most likely 6.
But...but...but...
That's not what the Kremlin is saying!
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Although there are still numerous aerial and artillery attacks on Ukraine, observers have wondered for a while why the number of drone attacks has fallen. THey thought Russia had run low on stocks and were waiting for more from Iran.
However it turns out that as Iran is a hot climate where they were made and tested for use there &amp;amp; they don't work properly if the temperature drops too low - as in a Ukrainian winter! Ooops.
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1599416372018044928
Oh dear....it seems like the lack of heating is having a negative effect on Ukraine military intelligentsia. Heating obviously off in Wilts Towers too :facepalm:
Woodburner working fine in Wiltshire land ta. Unlike Putin's drones...
Oooops!
-4C in Kyiv this morning by the way.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63967017
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So them working is something to celebrate ? Good to know that no lighting or heating for millions in -4 warms the cockles of your heart
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So them working is something to celebrate ? Good to know that no lighting or heating for millions in -4 warms the cockles of your heart
No, don't be a twonk. Neither is the US, UK, NATO, EU creating this mess in the first place anything to celebrate. But wear the BBC blinkers, take the subserviant US sertraliine, drop the EU mogadons, and enjoy your contribution of heating bills and mortgage rates.... if you like.
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So them working is something to celebrate ? Good to know that no lighting or heating for millions in -4 warms the cockles of your heart
Really not worth it. Anyone who would write that is really just not someone to engage with.
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So them working is something to celebrate ? Good to know that no lighting or heating for millions in -4 warms the cockles of your heart
Really not worth it. Anyone who would write that is really just not someone to engage with.
And so speaks another twonk. No one said that except in your transcendental Willy Wonka head. The "Oooops!" was a retort to Wilts who used that. Jeez I hope you don't go wondering in mazes on your outings to stately homes..... dont rely on breadcrumbs if you do.
By the way, you doubted the Ukraine attacks on the Nuke Power Plant and their losses there. Some info including vids around about here https://youtu.be/na3Ye6j05Hc?t=1515
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What’s your view on the Putin critic in Russia that got eight years for reporting atrocities by Russian BRR?
I know that Ukraine might commit them as well but until then what is your view on Putin?
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I don't know the details. Is he simply reporting what he saw, or was he making up stuff? If the former then yes, it's bad, and I'm not surprised. But then this is what governments do all over the world - Julian Assange is a case in point.
And can you correct your post - Ukraine HAS committed atrocities, you know that. Its what governments and military groups and individuals do, again all over the world, UK included. Military training is purposefully dehumanising and paints the enemy as inhuman. Governments add to that, and this forum is evidence of the results of that.
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I don't know the details. Is he simply reporting what he saw, or was he making up stuff? If the former then yes, it's bad, and I'm not surprised. But then this is what governments do all over the world - Julian Assange is a case in point.
And can you correct your post - Ukraine HAS committed atrocities, you know that. Its what governments and military groups and individuals do, again all over the world, UK included. Military training is purposefully dehumanising and paints the enemy as inhuman. Governments add to that, and this forum is evidence of the results of that.
Wow, I've just had to read that last sentence a few times.
Unbelievable.
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I don't know the details. Is he simply reporting what he saw, or was he making up stuff? If the former then yes, it's bad, and I'm not surprised. But then this is what governments do all over the world - Julian Assange is a case in point.
And can you correct your post - Ukraine HAS committed atrocities, you know that. Its what governments and military groups and individuals do, again all over the world, UK included. Military training is purposefully dehumanising and paints the enemy as inhuman. Governments add to that, and this forum is evidence of the results of that.
Wow, I've just had to read that last sentence a few times.
Unbelievable.
Regurgitation of western propaganda, go look, Jeff.
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What’s your view on the Putin critic in Russia that got eight years for reporting atrocities by Russian BRR?
I know that Ukraine might commit them as well but until then what is your view on Putin?
Having looked into it a bit, I still don't know exactly what he said, and I don't know how true or untrue that would have been - the whole issue is not as straight as most western media (ie Ukraine) say.
But either way, he is a strong part of the political opposition to Putin and the current Russian establishment. I couldn't see what links he has, partly as access to non western media is suppressed - I haven't searched mainstream Russian media. So he's someone that the Russian establishment has been wanting to put a stop to for a while. The way they do it there is pretty hardline, no subtlety. Many in Russia might think it wasn't hardline enough, and there are those who think the opposite. And as far as I can see I think it's a bad thing.
That's my criticism of the Russian action, a government/establishment intent on holding onto power in whatever way possible.
Compare that to how we do things here. I already mentioned Assange which parallels that Russian case. There are other cases in the west of the treatment of people who threaten the establishment, and in the UK one example is Jeremy Corbyn. What happened with him was more subtle but still amounts to destroying the challenge to the establishment. Just because it's establishment control via media etc etc in my mind doesn't make it any better than people being put in prison.
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So, to summarise:
You don't know what he's said.
You don't know what he's done.
You don't know if any of the rumours are true.
But you DO know it's similar to the Assange case.
That's Assange who was used by Putin to release information stolen by Russia at just the right time to turn the result of a democratic election, and put into the White House a man who ended up trying to stage a coup.
Fascinating logic.
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Translation:
"Pretty hard-line" means "Shooting, poisoning, pushing out of windows or sending to Siberian prisons for years on end". And that's similar to what the Western "Establishment" does.
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So, to summarise:
You don't know what he's said.
You don't know what he's done.
You don't know if any of the rumours are true.
But you DO know it's similar to the Assange case.
That's Assange who was used by Putin to release information stolen by Russia at just the right time to turn the result of a democratic election, and put into the White House a man who ended up trying to stage a coup.
Fascinating logic.
Jeez, you are relentless in misinterpretation, losing perspective, and making statements to suit your own self destructive narrative.
That's not what I said. Just re read.
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Translation:
"Pretty hard-line" means "Shooting, poisoning, pushing out of windows or sending to Siberian prisons for years on end". And that's similar to what the Western "Establishment" does.
Again, stick your head out of that bubble and read what I said. You can do it, you really can. Good boy.
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Sorry BRR. When you "mentioned Assange which parallels that Russian case" I assumed you were saying that Assange's case paralleled the Russian case. The Russian case that you said you "don't know exactly what he said, and I don't know how true or untrue that would have been".
I have this failing that, when I see people write things, I assume that's what they mean.
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I don't know the details. Is he simply reporting what he saw, or was he making up stuff? If the former then yes, it's bad, and I'm not surprised. But then this is what governments do all over the world - Julian Assange is a case in point.
And can you correct your post - Ukraine HAS committed atrocities, you know that. Its what governments and military groups and individuals do, again all over the world, UK included. Military training is purposefully dehumanising and paints the enemy as inhuman. Governments add to that, and this forum is evidence of the results of that.
Wow, I've just had to read that last sentence a few times.
Unbelievable.
Regurgitation of western propaganda, go look, Jeff.
And what you post is regurgitation of Russian propaganda, go look BRR
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I don't know the details. Is he simply reporting what he saw, or was he making up stuff? If the former then yes, it's bad, and I'm not surprised. But then this is what governments do all over the world - Julian Assange is a case in point.
And can you correct your post - Ukraine HAS committed atrocities, you know that. Its what governments and military groups and individuals do, again all over the world, UK included. Military training is purposefully dehumanising and paints the enemy as inhuman. Governments add to that, and this forum is evidence of the results of that.
Wow, I've just had to read that last sentence a few times.
Unbelievable.
Regurgitation of western propaganda, go look, Jeff.
And what you post is regurgitation of Russian propaganda, go look BRR
Good that you're aware of the western propaganda posted on here.
This whole conflict is huge and could easily escalate. Already people in the UK are suffering, some very seriously so - not just having to turn the heating down by a degree or two. This is a direct result of this war. The US has already leant Ukraine around $80 billion which it is going to lose if Ukraine completely capitulates which is at least a 50/50 probability now. Will the US write this off or chase it by ensuring Ukraine wins, and how far is it prepared to go with that? Note there are many in control in the US that think a limited nuke war is winable. The chances of that are slim, but increasing. Point being, all angles of this war are important. And of course there was the Ukraine attack on the Russian base where it's nuke bombers are. I'll be surprised if that hasn't put into place a Russian retaliation of some kind, or hardened what is already planned. Yyou can only imagine how the US would react in a similar situation. This IS hotting up :(
If you want to read just one angle, that's your foolish lazy choice. Yes, some of what I post is what Russian officials have said, but far from all of it. And, on observing what has happened following what US, Ukraine, and Russia have said then Russian statements appear to be at least on the ball and straight up as the others, and I think far more so.
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Sorry BRR. When you "mentioned Assange which parallels that Russian case" I assumed you were saying that Assange's case paralleled the Russian case. The Russian case that you said you "don't know exactly what he said, and I don't know how true or untrue that would have been".
I have this failing that, when I see people write things, I assume that's what they mean.
"exactly".
The essence of the situation parallels Assange. I don't know the details of what he said, nor his real life affiliations exactly. You're digging a hole.
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How can you possibly say A parallels B when by your own admission, you've no idea what A is?
You're doing what you've done throughout this conflict. Responded to every single obscenity from Putin with "Yeah, but the West!"
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How can you possibly say A parallels B when by your own admission, you've no idea what A is?
You're doing what you've done throughout this conflict. Responded to every single obscenity from Putin with "Yeah, but the West!"
I never said I have no idea "what A is".
And my line is critical of establishments, it's an "and" not a "but". You fail to admit any western wrong doing, any - though here's an opportunity to correct that.
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So when you said "Having looked into it a bit, I still don't know exactly what he said, and I don't know how true or untrue that would have been" what "exactly" did you mean?
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I am reminded of my old Ruskin College history tutor, a wonderful bloke named Raphael Samuels. Raph used to tell us stories of his time in the British Communist Party and how after 1945 they thought they could transform British society.
Then came the 1956 Hungarian uprising and it's putdown by Soviet tanks. Raph and thousands of his friends and colleagues spoke out against this and left the BCP which led to a split in the British left. Which has never really recovered.
The Party continued to defend the Soviet actions as it still continued to deny Stalin had ordered purges and built death camps killing millions. Because the Soviets were always right in what they said and did - because they were soviet.
We know now of course it was all lies. The Soviet Union murdered millions of people who disagreed with them and murdered unarmed ordinary people who rose up against their puppet government. Yet many in the British left defended it because...
As I said, I am reminded of this.
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:lol: meant what I said, I don't know exactly what he said, generally pointing to the Ukraine deaths near Kyiv. I know the general situation ie he's opposition to the establishment, similar to Assange, similar to Corbyn.
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I am reminded of my old Ruskin College history tutor, a wonderful bloke named Raphael Samuels. Raph used to tell us stories of his time in the British Communist Party and how after 1945 they thought they could transform British society.
Then came the 1956 Hungarian uprising and it's putdown by Soviet tanks. Raph and thousands of his friends and colleagues spoke out against this and left the BCP which led to a split in the British left. Which has never really recovered.
The Party continued to defend the Soviet actions as it still continued to deny Stalin had ordered purges and built death camps killing millions. Because the Soviets were always right in what they said and did - because they were soviet.
We know now of course it was all lies. The Soviet Union murdered millions of people who disagreed with them and murdered unarmed ordinary people who rose up against their puppet government. Yet many in the British left defended it because...
As I said, I am reminded of this.
I agree those times were bad, and to be reminded of that is no surprise. However this situation, this war, is not the same as that. For one, clear US interference and their documented desire to create a conflict is a difference.
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Translation.
I agree that the time under Stalin was bad, when western useful idiots said that crimes against humanity were fabricated by the West, or excused them because they said they were the inevitable response of Stalin to Western aggression.
But that's nothing like now, when the crimes against humanity committed by Putin are either made up by the West, or the fault of the West for their aggressive stance against Russia.
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Translation.
I agree that the time under Stalin was bad, when western useful idiots said that crimes against humanity were fabricated by the West, or excused them because they said they were the inevitable response of Stalin to Western aggression.
But that's nothing like now, when the crimes against humanity committed by Putin are either made up by the West, or the fault of the West for their aggressive stance against Russia.
You are a cad! First, it's not a stance against Russia, that would imply no action when the evidence shows a lengthy and increasing provocation of Russia. Not a stance, eh?
All armies commit atrocities, that's not excusing anything Russian forces have done, but BST, get a real perspective, take the blinkers off.
I think I'll stick to Google translate BTW.
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But you DO excuse atrocities by Russian forces. When they lobbed those anti shop missiles at a shopping centre and a park, you immediately repeatedly Kremlin lies that they were precision missies which had hit NATO-supplied arms dumps. You've never recanted that, despite every opportunity to do so.
Doesn't matter how many times Putin does this, your response is always, always to deflect. Just like the Useful Idiots said the invasion and massacre in Hungary was provoked by the West trying to undermine the Soviet Bloc. Just like the Useful Idiots who denied that Stalin was responsible for the Katyn Massacre. Or the Holodomir.
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Been drinking mulled rhetoric again?
That shopping centre incident I stand by, they were definitely aimed at military targets. But the rest, for freaks sake stop talking such b*llocks. Even Johnson wouldn't go that far.
By the way, still waiting on one word of condemnation on Ukraine/US forces. The continued shelling of Donetsk perhaps? Oh, yeah, you did shudder a bit at one of the Ukraine shooting of prisoners, not other ones though.
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You simply cannot back down can you?
The shopping centre attack used missiles with 60 year old guidance systems that could not possibly be used for a precision attack on anything. They were simply chucked into a city centre as a means of terrorising the civilian population. You are still, 6 months later parroting Kremlin lies. It is pitiful to see.
The rest? Your equivalents in previous decades did PRECISELY what you are doing now. Throwing smoke over everything Russian tyrants do, and blaming the West. Useful idiots, Stalin called them. What do you reckon Putin thinks you are?
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Tell me BST, in your mind, your world, what atrocities have Ukraine committed, or even possibly committed?
What do you see as the US interference before the invasion, and before 2014?
3rd question, how do you realistically see this progressing from here?
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''Businesses from Hong Kong to Florida tied to Russian drones killing people in Ukraine''
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-12-18/global-supply-trail-that-leads-to-russias-killer-drones/101780832
apologies if this has already been posted
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Personally, I hope Ukraine commits atrocity after atrocity after atrocity against the unspeakable thugs who have murdered, raped and destroyed absolutely everything that is not theirs. There is NO defence for the crimes of these Russian swines. They are evil. They are 19th century imperialists in a 21st century world. Until they grow up they deserve to be treated as the animals they so obviously are.
BobG
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Personally, I hope Ukraine commits atrocity after atrocity after atrocity against the unspeakable thugs who have murdered, raped and destroyed absolutely everything that is not theirs. There is NO defence for the crimes of these Russian swines. They are evil. They are 19th century imperialists in a 21st century world. Until they grow up they deserve to be treated as the animals they so obviously are.
BobG
Imperialist, but not 21st, or even 20th century enough for you?
Intriguing thought of wanting more attrocities committed by the way, that sounds more 1st century.
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I see the head of the Wagner Group is positioning himself for the end game when Russia's invasion collapses a d Putin is replaced (by him if he gets his way). He's been saying that the war is a mistake and that the fighting of Russian against Russian (read: "Russian against Ukrainian" but the nationalists can't say that) is a tragedy.
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No Bristol. It has Biblical support.
BobG
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No Bristol. It has Biblical support.
BobG
:ohmy:
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I was sitting out in the sun today with Alex and we ended up chatting about the inevitable Russia and Ukraine. The thought crossed my mind that what we are seeing today is on a direct line with what we saw in 1956, 1967 and 1979. It would be interesting to explore the depth of the parallels between all four of these Russian militaristic foreign adventures...
BobG
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I think this one is very different Bob.
56 and 68 were models of what Putin THOUGHT this was going to be like - Russia disapproves of the Govt of a country it considers to be subservient to it. So they send the tanks in. There's little opposition. They decapitate the leadership and impose their own men.
That's what Putin told Xie was going to happen in February.
79 was about intervening in a messy, interminable civil war that Russia desperately wanted to stay out of, but had to wade into because a Marxist Govt, loyal to Moscow, was in danger of being overthrown. Moscow couldn't lose face so they went in. And got bogged down in a decade-long asymmetrical conflict against Western-backed Mujahedeen.
Ukraine has become a full on imperialistic war of territorial conquest. It's of a form and scale that Russia hasn't been involved in since 1945, but which they used to do every generation before that. WWII, Russo-Polish War WWI, Russo-Japanese War, Crimean War, etc, etc, etc...
In 56 and 68, Russian military deaths were trivial. Even in Afghanistan there were "only" 15,000 Russian deaths in a decade. Ukraine is on a different scale. Best estimates are that Russian has lost 200,000 killed and wounded in 9-10 months. It's truly horrific and Putin would give his right bollock to roll the clock back and not have invaded last February.
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Now we await the response from Putins puppet
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....Ukraine is on a different scale. Best estimates are that Russian has lost 200,000 killed and wounded in 9-10 months....
Far from "best estimates". Double even the western estimates I've seen - what's your source?
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Rather than the military events and outcomes I was wondering about similarities, or differences, in the political and cultural values that led to each of these imperialist adventures.
BobG
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Rather than the military events and outcomes I was wondering about similarities, or differences, in the political and cultural values that led to each of these imperialist adventures.
BobG
The Czech and Hungarian invasions were about keeping tight Russias influence. I think the pervading values there were mostly around the vision of the Soviet Union being powerful and holding what it felt was now it's backyard free from Western influence as well as milking it itself. No doubt there was at least an element of defenciveness in the shadow of a US becoming the great world power. So some similarities to the current situation but more of an iron fist attitude.
The Afghan war I think was an opportunity by the Soviets to keep a government under it's umbrella. The intervention may well have dragged on, but the US funding of the Mujahideen ($20 billion plus) certainly added to that. The US seeing an opportuntity to weaken the Soviet Union felt this was money well spent. I think this war resonated far less to the Soviets than the Czech and Hungarian interventions. Also resonated far less culturally and amongst the Soviet citizens. They didn't expect the US to join in with what was a proxy war, and they possibly wouldn't have acted if they have known the size of the US investment. Staying there not to lose face was a key motivation. So different to the above in that it was less of a defensive action, and very different in that it was a proxy war. That proxy is similar to the current situation.
The difference with Ukraine is that Russians see it more overtly as Western agression, expansion, imperialism if you like. It is also adjacent to their borders - as was Hungary to the Soviets, though Ukraine is in so many ways the blood brother of Russia where Hungary was far more distant, more just a neighbour. By taunting a section of the Ukraine leadership with NATO and the EU, and then moving towards instigating all that, the West - really the US - had stepped over Russia's garden gate and having a crafty joint by the hedge, passing it to Ukraine to indulge too.
I know most here won't see it like that, it's not what the west portrays, but it is how the majority of Russians see it. What a fackin liberty, they might say.
As for the leadership - I think it's a far more serious pushing of them that ever before. The US knows this. But kust looking at leadership, we're looking at people with huge personal investments - financial, ego, emotional, and legacy. That's no different to the leaders back in the Soviet days, and no different to the US leaders (not the president so much as he's the puppet), and the new pro western leaders in Ukraine. All in it for themselves. Even our Boris who went over to persuade Zelensky not to accept the Minsk agreements and vow full western support - ie loans to be paid back. And now we have another proxy war, one that could easily draw in Poland and then we're all fecked.
Bob, you asked the question about Russian/Soviet culture. How much do you think western/US politics, culture, intervention is different in these situations?
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My mistake.
200,000 on both sides. 100,000 each.
The main point still holds. This is by far the most destructive conflict that Russia has been involved in since 1945. And there is no way on God's earth Putin would have sunk into this if he'd known what was coming.
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:lol: meant what I said, I don't know exactly what he said, generally pointing to the Ukraine deaths near Kyiv. I know the general situation ie he's opposition to the establishment, similar to Assange, similar to Corbyn.
The laughing face imogi on your post speaks volumes about you as a person so lost up in a ‘debate’ you can’t wait to ‘dive in’ & attempt to provide Putin’s‘ legitimacy’ for this war.
Think on that the next time you talk about the number of deaths this war has claimed thus far & on whose head those deaths ultimately lie.
I make this post after stating I would no longer give credence to your posts by ‘reacting’ to them, however.
‘Evil prospers when ‘good men’ turn a blind eye’.
Or perhaps in your case, when a ‘good man’ (?) refuses to open his eyes.
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This sums up the whole war.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Biz_Ukraine_Mag/status/1605551130892636160
The Putin coterie truly is like a Cosa Nostra.
Respect us or we will make you respect us.
Except they won't.
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This sums up the whole war.
https://mobile.twitter.com/Biz_Ukraine_Mag/status/1605551130892636160
The Putin coterie truly is like a Cosa Nostra.
Respect us or we will make you respect us.
Except they won't.
This bloke is living in cloud cuckoo land.
How on earth does he believe a weakened Russia can stand up to the US and Europe in a conventional war, because China won't get involved, they've made that clear.
Sure, they can bring on Armageddon with their nuclear arsenal, but thats a Pyrrhic victory that doesn't bear thinking about.
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No-one with any sense in Russia believes that.
But Kitsons like this do the job of pouring this uber-nationalist w**k fantasy into the heads of grindingly poor folk who have been robbed by the kleptocrats.
Better to keep people poor, ignorant and dreaming of faux nationalist glory, than actually encourage them to make their world better by demanding Russia act like a grown up country. While ever they can keep people like that, the gangster thugs can continue to rule.
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There'll be the grieving families of 100,000 dead Russian soldiers who won't be swallowing that crap.
There are many 'younger' Russians who have travelled or lived abroad, they won't be buying into such rhetoric either.
I suspect Putin wishes he could turn the clock back.
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True Colin, but it's amazing what nationalistic drivel you can sell to people who want to hear it.
Kemi Badenoch was at it yesterday, insisting that our British right to make deals with anyone in the world will more than make up for the wealth we are haemorrhaging through lower trade with the EU. There are millions in this country that will believe that because it plays to their prejudices. Even though it is complete b*llocks.
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:lol: meant what I said, I don't know exactly what he said, generally pointing to the Ukraine deaths near Kyiv. I know the general situation ie he's opposition to the establishment, similar to Assange, similar to Corbyn.
The laughing face imogi on your post speaks volumes about you as a person so lost up in a ‘debate’ you can’t wait to ‘dive in’ & attempt to provide Putin’s‘ legitimacy’ for this war.
Think on that the next time you talk about the number of deaths this war has claimed thus far & on whose head those deaths ultimately lie.
I make this post after stating I would no longer give credence to your posts by ‘reacting’ to them, however.
‘Evil prospers when ‘good men’ turn a blind eye’.
Or perhaps in your case, when a ‘good man’ (?) refuses to open his eyes.
You're not making sense. I wasn't giving legitimacy to anyone, just simply putting this case in perspective and out of hysteria. But stick with hysteria if that's how your life works for you.
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My mistake.
200,000 on both sides. 100,000 each.
The main point still holds. This is by far the most destructive conflict that Russia has been involved in since 1945. And there is no way on God's earth Putin would have sunk into this if he'd known what was coming.
This seems to be a reasonable, and detailed assessment of casualties.
https://youtu.be/Bfj2c5racUY
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There'll be the grieving families of 100,000 dead Russian soldiers who won't be swallowing that crap.
There are many 'younger' Russians who have travelled or lived abroad, they won't be buying into such rhetoric either.
I suspect Putin wishes he could turn the clock back.
You been counting the dead have you?
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My mistake.
200,000 on both sides. 100,000 each.
The main point still holds. This is by far the most destructive conflict that Russia has been involved in since 1945. And there is no way on God's earth Putin would have sunk into this if he'd known what was coming.
This seems to be a reasonable, and detailed assessment of casualties.
https://youtu.be/Bfj2c5racUY
You truly are away with the fairies! I'm assuming this is some bizarre joke, no?
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My mistake.
200,000 on both sides. 100,000 each.
The main point still holds. This is by far the most destructive conflict that Russia has been involved in since 1945. And there is no way on God's earth Putin would have sunk into this if he'd known what was coming.
This seems to be a reasonable, and detailed assessment of casualties.
https://youtu.be/Bfj2c5racUY
You truly are away with the fairies! I'm assuming this is some bizarre joke, no?
Be specific. Try saying your issues with that, and tell me how you are sure about the stats you are using. I'm assuming you are taking Zelensky as gospel?
Further, from everything I've seen, across all media, including understanding the amount of Russian troops initially sent to Ukraine and how others have arrived since, the 100k deaths makes zero sense. Plus you have it from the horses mouth, the EU, saying 100k Ukraine deaths, which happens to concur with all methods of analysis, except of course the blatent propaganda, which I do understand, bizarely, forms the mainstay of your information diet. 100k Russian casualties is about right as a max, probs less than that, as discussed in the vid.
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I got as far as him talking about the attack:defence casualty ratios in Iraq as though they had something to tell us about those in Ukraine and gave up. That's not in any way a serious analysis, for reasons that would be too condescending to list. I'm sure you can figure it out.
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I got as far as him talking about the attack:defence casualty ratios in Iraq as though they had something to tell us about those in Ukraine and gave up. That's not in any way a serious analysis, for reasons that would be too condescending to list. I'm sure you can figure it out.
Yep. That's fairly clear. You're too clever and knowledgeable to go delving beyond the mush you're fed and regurgitate.
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If you really don't get it, there's not much point in me trying to explain it.
By the way, I've never said Russian had 100,000 fatalities. If you're going to insist on an argument, at least check what you are arguing about.
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If you really don't get it, there's not much point in me trying to explain it.
By the way, I've never said Russian had 100,000 fatalities. If you're going to insist on an argument, at least check what you are arguing about.
You're making no sense at all. Interesting discussion where you fold your arms and say "If you don't get it, I'm not telling you" Jeez, bet its bliss in your household.
I know you claimed approx 100k Russian casualties not fatalities, you did state that. It's the 100k Ukraine casualties is probs 1/4 to 1/5 of the reality. Though Zelensky says don't tell them, so you and the EU are keeping hush on that, edited vid excepted.
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So you're saying Russian forces, in a war started by Putin when he had every opportunity not to do so, have killed and mutilated half a million opponents? At a rate of 4-5x their own losses?
Remind me how that squares with the Russian forces getting out of Kherson and Kupyiansk as fast as they could in the Autumn?
Oh no! Of course! Silly me! Those were strategic withdrawals weren't they? I remember now.
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And I'll say once again. If you REALLY don't get why the relative death tolls of the Americans and Iraqis say nothing of any worth about what's going on in Ukraine, you're truly a lost cause. Stop posting your diatribes for a moment and think. It's not hard!
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And...you have successfully derailed the discussion that was going on. About this being a war the like of which Russia hasn't been involved in since 1945. It's on a far, far bigger scale than their invasion of Afghanistan. And Putin had assumed it would be closer to the Hungarian put down of 1956.
Even if we suspend disbelief and accept your bullshit figures on Ukranian losses, that doesn't change the fact that Russia hasn't known losses like the ones it is experiencing now since the days of the drive to Berlin.
And this is 100% self-inflicted.
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I think I can safely say (bare in mind here, ‘tis the season’ etc.,) this will be Putin’s last Christmas.
As for the Russia he leaves behind? Wind back 70 years.
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So you're saying Russian forces, in a war started by Putin when he had every opportunity not to do so, have killed and mutilated half a million opponents? At a rate of 4-5x their own losses?
Remind me how that squares with the Russian forces getting out of Kherson and Kupyiansk as fast as they could in the Autumn?
Oh no! Of course! Silly me! Those were strategic withdrawals weren't they? I remember now.
Kharkiv Russia very heavily outnumbered, so yes withdraw, guessing Billy General would be stood behind the lines shooting the runners of his own side in the rear end?
Kherson - too unreliable to keep supplies up to where needed, plus troops better employed elsewhere and Russia bogged down the Ukraine's, especially their armour, in that region for a week or two with missile and drone strikes on infastructure.
But you have other explanations?
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So you're saying Russian forces, in a war started by Putin when he had every opportunity not to do so, have killed and mutilated half a million opponents? At a rate of 4-5x their own losses.
Pretty much appears that way. Ukraine has lots of troops, less armour, far less firepower (anything from a fifth to a tenth of Russias), far less artillery. Just try and get your head around how that plays out on the battlefield.
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And I'll say once again. If you REALLY don't get why the relative death tolls of the Americans and Iraqis say nothing of any worth about what's going on in Ukraine, you're truly a lost cause. Stop posting your diatribes for a moment and think. It's not hard!
The vid explains exactly. Like I said, you're too clever to watch it, in fact seems you think you know what you're talking about without watching.
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And...you have successfully derailed the discussion that was going on. About this being a war the like of which Russia hasn't been involved in since 1945. It's on a far, far bigger scale than their invasion of Afghanistan. And Putin had assumed it would be closer to the Hungarian put down of 1956.
Even if we suspend disbelief and accept your bullshit figures on Ukranian losses, that doesn't change the fact that Russia hasn't known losses like the ones it is experiencing now since the days of the drive to Berlin.
And this is 100% self-inflicted.
Not my figures on deaths, just using available info. Not the make believe propaganda of Zelensky - though, why would he want truth covered up? Why would he censor the EU from giving info?
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And...you have successfully derailed the discussion that was going on. About this being a war the like of which Russia hasn't been involved in since 1945. It's on a far, far bigger scale than their invasion of Afghanistan. And Putin had assumed it would be closer to the Hungarian put down of 1956.
I discussed that. You simply had a rant about how bad it is for Russia using figures direct from the US which is heavily invested financially and politically. And whose figures don't match what the EU stated before being censored. Bit of the bleeding obvious going on there don't ya think?
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I think I can safely say (bare in mind here, ‘tis the season’ etc. ,) this will be Putin’s last Christmas.
As for the Russia he leaves behind? Wind back
Too much Baileys? Makes sense :santa:
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So you're saying Russian forces, in a war started by Putin when he had every opportunity not to do so, have killed and mutilated half a million opponents? At a rate of 4-5x their own losses?
Remind me how that squares with the Russian forces getting out of Kherson and Kupyiansk as fast as they could in the Autumn?
Oh no! Of course! Silly me! Those were strategic withdrawals weren't they? I remember now.
Kharkiv Russia very heavily outnumbered, so yes withdraw, guessing Billy General would be stood behind the lines shooting the runners of his own side in the rear end?
Kherson - too unreliable to keep supplies up to where needed, plus troops better employed elsewhere and Russia bogged down the Ukraine's, especially their armour, in that region for a week or two with missile and drone strikes on infastructure.
But you have other explanations?
If you're going to spout Russian propaganda, at least get with the correct line.
Every Russian military and political commentator on Russian state TV called the losses in Kharkiv and Kherson as disastrous losses. You are not remotely up to speed. You're telling yourself what you want to believe.
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And...you have successfully derailed the discussion that was going on. About this being a war the like of which Russia hasn't been involved in since 1945. It's on a far, far bigger scale than their invasion of Afghanistan. And Putin had assumed it would be closer to the Hungarian put down of 1956.
I discussed that. You simply had a rant about how bad it is for Russia using figures direct from the US which is heavily invested financially and politically. And whose figures don't match what the EU stated before being censored. Bit of the bleeding obvious going on there don't ya think?
Simple questions:
A)Did Putin expect this to be a simple operation to walk into Kyiv last Feb, eliminate Zelensky and put his own man in power?
B) If you're answer to the above is "yes" then this was a disastrous mistake. If it is "no", why did he send in light forces to Kyiv that were easily kicked out?
C) Yes or no. Is the resulting war seeing the worst Russian losses since WWII?
No obscuring the question with your Russian propaganda about supposed Ukrainian losses. That's irrelevant to the questions above.
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........ ''But the AP investigation into life in occupied Mariupol also underlines what its residents already know all too well: No matter what the Russians do, they are building upon a city of death. More than 10,000 new graves now scar Mariupol, the AP found, and the death toll might run three times higher than an early estimate of at least 25,000. The former Ukrainian city has also hollowed out, with Russian plans to demolish well over 50,000 homes, the AP calculated''
https://apnews.com/article/russia-ukraine-war-erasing-mariupol-499dceae43ed77f2ebfe750ea99b9ad9?utm_source=homepage&utm_medium=TopNews&utm_campaign=position_02
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I think I can safely say (bare in mind here, ‘tis the season’ etc. ,) this will be Putin’s last Christmas.
As for the Russia he leaves behind? Wind back
Too much Baileys? Makes sense :santa:
Your support of a murdering dictator, including his own people is disgusting!!
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Another factor in all this unnecessary suffering and destruction is the long term impact on health and environment. No doubt it's raised somewhere but not seen much about it. The impact of all the fires and explosions releasing god knows what into the air and the amount of contaminants in the buildings must be astronomical and will be an issue for years to come. We deal with arranging demolitions at work, and controlled asbestos removal costs thousands on a single dwelling, can you imagine what damage was done at the Mariopol steelworks? The deaths will continue for years and are all at one man's door.
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Don't worry Turnbull. Apparently it's all the fault of the west.
BobG
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So you're saying Russian forces, in a war started by Putin when he had every opportunity not to do so, have killed and mutilated half a million opponents? At a rate of 4-5x their own losses?
Remind me how that squares with the Russian forces getting out of Kherson and Kupyiansk as fast as they could in the Autumn?
Oh no! Of course! Silly me! Those were strategic withdrawals weren't they? I remember now.
Kharkiv Russia very heavily outnumbered, so yes withdraw, guessing Billy General would be stood behind the lines shooting the runners of his own side in the rear end?
Kherson - too unreliable to keep supplies up to where needed, plus troops better employed elsewhere and Russia bogged down the Ukraine's, especially their armour, in that region for a week or two with missile and drone strikes on infastructure.
But you have other explanations?
If you're going to spout Russian propaganda, at least get with the correct line.
Every Russian military and political commentator on Russian state TV called the losses in Kharkiv and Kherson as disastrous losses. You are not remotely up to speed. You're telling yourself what you want to believe.
Billy, sorry to say but your level of comprehension is getting progressively worse.
I never said they weren't disasters, I just explained the reasoning, the military logic. And you come back with trashy propaganda style nonsense. Weird.
They were most definitely disasters in terms of bad publicity back in Russia, and giving Ukraine fab media points that helped them get more loans from the US.
Militarily, they were the right moves, as I explained. Also note that whilst territory gains and losses count on the media, and hence public opinion, and even political opinion, Russia's aims are to grind down theUkraine military - something supported by these actions, and evidently true on the battlefield.
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Militarily they were the right moves because their forces were being smashed by the Ukrainian army.
The Russians didn't just choose to retreat you fool. They were forced into it because they'd suffered a crushing defeat on the battlefields.
The Russians didn't even try to cover that up in the way that you do. You're truly off the scale.
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Don't worry Turnbull. Apparently it's all the fault of the west.
BobG
In Bob's BBC world, the US/UK/NATO didn't invite Ukraine into NATO, nor instigate the pro EU/NATO protests, nor stop Ukraine from reaching a peaceful settlement over the Donbas - Minsk agreement. The US hasn't been planning on destabilising Russia for decades. Also, in his world, the US isn't wanting to make a quick buck out of selling arms to Ukraine, selling shale gas to the EU, getting cut price Ukraine land and minerals. Also no desire by the US to push the EU into decline and high prices to encourage US firms back to US soil.
In fact, there's no Geopolitics at all going on, except for Russian imperialism.
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Militarily they were the right moves because their forces were being smashed by the Ukrainian army.
The Russians didn't just choose to retreat you fool. They were forced into it because they'd suffered a crushing defeat on the battlefields.
The Russians didn't even try to cover that up in the way that you do. You're truly off the scale.
Where's your evidence for Russian losses being in excess of Ukraine ones in Kharkiv, and in Kherson?
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Militarily they were the right moves because their forces were being smashed by the Ukrainian army.
The Russians didn't just choose to retreat you fool. They were forced into it because they'd suffered a crushing defeat on the battlefields.
The Russians didn't even try to cover that up in the way that you do. You're truly off the scale.
Yes, in Kharkiv they retreated as v v heavily outnumbered. I said that. No covering up, just your inability to read and comprehend. Maybe it's a cold you have?
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I'm all in favour of balanced disputation and discussion based on verifiable facts. Sadly, one element of this thread, going back months, has suffered from HawHaw esque blindness from day 1. It seems to represent the school of 'If I shout loud enough for long enough some fools will believe me'.
BobG
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I'm all in favour of balanced disputation and discussion based on verifiable facts. Sadly, one element of this thread, going back months, has suffered from HawHaw esque blindness from day 1. It seems to represent the school of 'If I shout loud enough for long enough some fools will believe me'.
BobG
Vague
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And...you have successfully derailed the discussion that was going on. About this being a war the like of which Russia hasn't been involved in since 1945. It's on a far, far bigger scale than their invasion of Afghanistan. And Putin had assumed it would be closer to the Hungarian put down of 1956.
I discussed that. You simply had a rant about how bad it is for Russia using figures direct from the US which is heavily invested financially and politically. And whose figures don't match what the EU stated before being censored. Bit of the bleeding obvious going on there don't ya think?
Simple questions:
A)Did Putin expect this to be a simple operation to walk into Kyiv last Feb, eliminate Zelensky and put his own man in power?
B) If you're answer to the above is "yes" then this was a disastrous mistake. If it is "no", why did he send in light forces to Kyiv that were easily kicked out?
C) Yes or no. Is the resulting war seeing the worst Russian losses since WWII?
No obscuring the question with your Russian propaganda about supposed Ukrainian losses. That's irrelevant to the questions above.
When you're ready BRR.
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BST, it's Russia not Putin. Whilst Putin obviously has a big part of the say, to always say "Putin" is playing rhetorical propaganda games. Be bigger.
Russia took the territories it needed in the south, and pushed Ukraine back in the East. Clearly, that is Russians minimum needs, and where it put its strongest forces.
Kyiv would have been nice too, as would a total Ukraine capitulation. So, it was worth a shot, plus as indicated above, it was a very effective distraction to action elsewhere.
Yes, these do seem to be the biggest losses since WW2. Though if you're looking at the real stats, having a perspective, not trying to play rhetorical nonsense games, Ukraine is roughly on par with Afghanistan, absolutely nowhere near WW2.
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Kyiv would have been nice too, as would a total Ukraine capitulation.
And a return to the old Soviet Union would be just lovely!
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BBR, it’s Christmas.
Do you fancy a kick about in ‘no mans land’?
You could stick Bentley Bullet between the posts, his favourite position & Axholme Lion on the far right, his natural position.
schastlivogo Rozhdestva.
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Hang on a minute.
You've been telling us for months that this war was caused by NATO and the EU forcing Putin[1] into an invasion to neutralise Ukraine as a threat to Russia. Surely, that is best achieved by having a Russia-friendly Govt in Kyiv. Which should really have been an easy task if, as you've suggested for months, the Kyiv Govt is an unpopular usurper.
Now you are saying that the overthrow of Zelensky would have been a "nice to have" and the real aim was a territory grab.
But it's good to see you finally accept what the rest of us have been saying from the start. That's progress.
Only...how is it then in the Russian strategic interest to run away from half the land in the south and east that they stole in earlier 2022? Why on earth spend so much time, money, men and materiel trying to seize Kharkiv and Kherson, if you're going to choose to just give them back once you encounter a bit of a fightback? And in giving them back, leave yourself badly exposed to a resumption of Ukranian attacks when the winter has ended?
Your position now seems to be:
Russia did indeed engage in an illegal land grab as it's war aim in the south and east.
Russia has freely given up half the land that it took.
Everything is fine and Russia is winning.
Regarding Afghanistan, this is really nothing remotely like that war. There the Russians were dealing with a lightly armed insurgency. They lost 15,000 troops killed in 10 years. In Ukraine they are fighting a modern, heavily armed force in what is a small scale equivalent of the World War peer-to-peer fighting. They have had at least 15,000 fatalities in 10 MONTHS.
[1] "Putin" not "Russia". If you don't understand the extent to which Putin WAS the Russian Government by Feb 2022, you really should do yourself a favour and stop publicly displaying your ignorance.
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BBR, it’s Christmas.
Do you fancy a kick about in ‘no mans land’?
You could stick Bentley Bullet between the posts, his favourite position & Axholme Lion on the far right, his natural position.
schastlivogo Rozhdestva.
I suppose you'd live up to your name and be Colin C No.3.
Left-back, with the women and children.
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Hang on a minute.
You've been telling us for months that this war was caused by NATO and the EU forcing Putin[1] into an invasion to neutralise Ukraine as a threat to Russia. Surely, that is best achieved by having a Russia-friendly Govt in Kyiv. Which should really have been an easy task if, as you've suggested for months, the Kyiv Govt is an unpopular usurper.
Now you are saying that the overthrow of Zelensky would have been a "nice to have" and the real aim was a territory grab.
But it's good to see you finally accept what the rest of us have been saying from the start. That's progress.
Only...how is it then in the Russian strategic interest to run away from half the land in the south and east that they stole in earlier 2022? Why on earth spend so much time, money, men and materiel trying to seize Kharkiv and Kherson, if you're going to choose to just give them back once you encounter a bit of a fightback? And in giving them back, leave yourself badly exposed to a resumption of Ukranian attacks when the winter has ended?
Your position now seems to be:
Russia did indeed engage in an illegal land grab as it's war aim in the south and east.
Russia has freely given up half the land that it took.
Everything is fine and Russia is winning.
Regarding Afghanistan, this is really nothing remotely like that war. There the Russians were dealing with a lightly armed insurgency. They lost 15,000 troops killed in 10 years. In Ukraine they are fighting a modern, heavily armed force in what is a small scale equivalent of the World War peer-to-peer fighting. They have had at least 15,000 fatalities in 10 MONTHS.
[1] "Putin" not "Russia". If you don't understand the extent to which Putin WAS the Russian Government by Feb 2022, you really should do yourself a favour and stop publicly displaying your ignorance.
Off the wall, up the bloody tree, right in the cuckoo's nest reply there BST. Lies, exaggerations, mis quotes, lack of comprehension, square peg in a round hole.
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But no facts, reasoning or rationale from you Bristol. You are making a habit of it these days. Abuse don't really give your cause much credence
BobH
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But no facts, reasoning or rationale from you Bristol. You are making a habit of it these days. Abuse don't really give your cause much credence
BobH
Has your account been hacked?
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But no facts, reasoning or rationale from you Bristol. You are making a habit of it these days. Abuse don't really give your cause much credence
BobH
None from you either, did you not notice? As for BST, will reply fully later as I nearly always do. I started off chats here fully respectful, tho others, BST consistently, pile on the abuse, some of it beyond what should be allowed on any forum, so I give it back sometimes. Happy?
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To walk into Ukraine and take over the gov in Kiev wouldn't have neutralised Ukraine Military. You know the country is approx 50/50 pro Western Pro Russian, and in Kyiv more pro Western than in the east. Then holding down a population that is more resistant takes a lot of resources.
The land gained in the south and east was all the basic needed, for Crimea and Donbas.
Ukraine could have negotiated before the invasion, in fact were doing, tho Johnson stuck his foot in that door, on behalf of the Yanks.... and you know that story.
So having taking that initial territory, the object is to destroy Ukraine military.
Your idea of taking Kyiv first ain't a good one, wasn't the plan for good reason. Or maybe you can explain how that would work? (a BST reply on track would be novel!)
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Russia has left territory that would have resulted in bad losses to its military. Don't think that's half what they took. Exaggerating are you? And not clocking any military or political noise.
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For sure this is nothing like Afghanistan. The people, the culture, the topography, etc etc is different. The US funding of the opposition is the same, tho in Ukraine many times more money being leant - as opposed to being given. I don't think the US leant money to the Mujahideen?
So yep, more losses, more shells, more armour, but then it's band on Russian borderland, Afghanistan wasn't.
All the above been over before.
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To walk into Ukraine and take over the gov in Kiev wouldn't have neutralised Ukraine Military. You know the country is approx 50/50 pro Western Pro Russian, and in Kyiv more pro Western than in the east. Then holding down a population that is more resistant takes a lot of resources.
The land gained in the south and east was all the basic needed, for Crimea and Donbas.
Ukraine could have negotiated before the invasion, in fact were doing, tho Johnson stuck his foot in that door, on behalf of the Yanks.... and you know that story.
So having taking that initial territory, the object is to destroy Ukraine military.
Your idea of taking Kyiv first ain't a good one, wasn't the plan for good reason. Or maybe you can explain how that would work? (a BST reply on track would be novel!)
Why would a sovereign Country want to negotiate loss of territory to an aggressor?
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To walk into Ukraine and take over the gov in Kiev wouldn't have neutralised Ukraine Military. You know the country is approx 50/50 pro Western Pro Russian, and in Kyiv more pro Western than in the east. Then holding down a population that is more resistant takes a lot of resources.
The land gained in the south and east was all the basic needed, for Crimea and Donbas.
Ukraine could have negotiated before the invasion, in fact were doing, tho Johnson stuck his foot in that door, on behalf of the Yanks.... and you know that story.
So having taking that initial territory, the object is to destroy Ukraine military.
Your idea of taking Kyiv first ain't a good one, wasn't the plan for good reason. Or maybe you can explain how that would work? (a BST reply on track would be novel!)
So, what exactly was the plan? And why isn’t it working?
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To walk into Ukraine and take over the gov in Kiev wouldn't have neutralised Ukraine Military. You know the country is approx 50/50 pro Western Pro Russian, and in Kyiv more pro Western than in the east. Then holding down a population that is more resistant takes a lot of resources.
The land gained in the south and east was all the basic needed, for Crimea and Donbas.
Ukraine could have negotiated before the invasion, in fact were doing, tho Johnson stuck his foot in that door, on behalf of the Yanks.... and you know that story.
So having taking that initial territory, the object is to destroy Ukraine military.
Your idea of taking Kyiv first ain't a good one, wasn't the plan for good reason. Or maybe you can explain how that would work? (a BST reply on track would be novel!)
Why would a sovereign Country want to negotiate loss of territory to an aggressor?
To still have some territory after the negotiation?
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To walk into Ukraine and take over the gov in Kiev wouldn't have neutralised Ukraine Military. You know the country is approx 50/50 pro Western Pro Russian, and in Kyiv more pro Western than in the east. Then holding down a population that is more resistant takes a lot of resources.
The land gained in the south and east was all the basic needed, for Crimea and Donbas.
Ukraine could have negotiated before the invasion, in fact were doing, tho Johnson stuck his foot in that door, on behalf of the Yanks.... and you know that story.
So having taking that initial territory, the object is to destroy Ukraine military.
Your idea of taking Kyiv first ain't a good one, wasn't the plan for good reason. Or maybe you can explain how that would work? (a BST reply on track would be novel!)
So, what exactly was the plan? And why isn’t it working?
I suggested why already.
What are you thinking isn't working?
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BRR.
You've told us all year that Putin's War was an essentially defensive operation which he was forced into because of the threat of Ukraine becoming Westernised.
Now you're regularly saying that Putin's aim has been to grab territory from Ukraine. And that he's winning in that War.
Which one is it?
It can't be both. Because if Putin doesn't destroy Ukraine as a functioning state, his invasion had guaranteed that the majority of Ukraine will be Western-looking for the test of the century.
And do stop this b*llocks about Ukrainian people being split 50/50 between West and Russian supporting blocs. You know the numbers were nothing like that, even before Putin invaded and tried to destroy the civilian infrastructure of the country (which is scarcely going to endear him is it - Dear Russia lovers: I will seal our relationship by destroying your electricity supply in the depth of winter. Love. Vlad.)
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To walk into Ukraine and take over the gov in Kiev wouldn't have neutralised Ukraine Military. You know the country is approx 50/50 pro Western Pro Russian, and in Kyiv more pro Western than in the east. Then holding down a population that is more resistant takes a lot of resources.
The land gained in the south and east was all the basic needed, for Crimea and Donbas.
Ukraine could have negotiated before the invasion, in fact were doing, tho Johnson stuck his foot in that door, on behalf of the Yanks.... and you know that story.
So having taking that initial territory, the object is to destroy Ukraine military.
Your idea of taking Kyiv first ain't a good one, wasn't the plan for good reason. Or maybe you can explain how that would work? (a BST reply on track would be novel!)
Why would a sovereign Country want to negotiate loss of territory to an aggressor?
To still have some territory after the negotiation?
Why would a Sovereign Country want to negotiate giving up territory to an aggressor?
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Looks like they’ve been killing their own people again
“ Russian politician who criticised Putin's war in Ukraine dies in India
By Neville Lazarus, India reporter
Russian citizens Pavel Antov and Vladimir Bidenov have died in unusual circumstances in a hotel in Odisha, India. The two were co-travellers and died two days apart.
Mr Antov, 65, was a lawmaker and had recently criticised Russian President Vladimir Putin for the war in Ukraine but soon retracted it.
He died after falling from the third floor of his hotel. He was found lying in a pool of blood outside the hotel on Saturday 24 December.
Police said they suspected it to be suicide as he was reportedly depressed after his friend's death.
Mr Bidenov had been found lying unconscious in his room on Thursday 22 December and was declared dead by doctors at the district hospital.
The Russian embassy said Odisha police have not yet found any criminal link in the death of two of its citizen at the same hotel in the state.
Local media reports speculated of a hit-job as a number of critics of President Putin have died in similar ways in Russia.”
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Peace talks in Feb according to BBC news this morning !!?
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To walk into Ukraine and take over the gov in Kiev wouldn't have neutralised Ukraine Military. You know the country is approx 50/50 pro Western Pro Russian, and in Kyiv more pro Western than in the east. Then holding down a population that is more resistant takes a lot of resources.
The land gained in the south and east was all the basic needed, for Crimea and Donbas.
Ukraine could have negotiated before the invasion, in fact were doing, tho Johnson stuck his foot in that door, on behalf of the Yanks.... and you know that story.
So having taking that initial territory, the object is to destroy Ukraine military.
Your idea of taking Kyiv first ain't a good one, wasn't the plan for good reason. Or maybe you can explain how that would work? (a BST reply on track would be novel!)
Why would a sovereign Country want to negotiate loss of territory to an aggressor?
To still have some territory after the negotiation?
Why would a Sovereign Country want to negotiate giving up territory to an aggressor?
To have some territory left after negotiation. As its going, quite possibly they'd have none.
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BRR.
You've told us all year that Putin's War was an essentially defensive operation which he was forced into because of the threat of Ukraine becoming Westernised.
Now you're regularly saying that Putin's aim has been to grab territory from Ukraine. And that he's winning in that War.
Which one is it?
It can't be both. Because if Putin doesn't destroy Ukraine as a functioning state, his invasion had guaranteed that the majority of Ukraine will be Western-looking for the test of the century.
And do stop this b*llocks about Ukrainian people being split 50/50 between West and Russian supporting blocs. You know the numbers were nothing like that, even before Putin invaded and tried to destroy the civilian infrastructure of the country (which is scarcely going to endear him is it - Dear Russia lovers: I will seal our relationship by destroying your electricity supply in the depth of winter. Love. Vlad.)
So, first Donbas. People there being attacked largely Russian - protect them, define the borders. Tick - well almost.
NATO knocking at Russias gates, destroy Ukraine's military - ongoing.
In the process secure the Crimea with the land bridge. Tick.
Is it that hard for you to grasp?
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BRR.
You've told us all year that Putin's War was an essentially defensive operation which he was forced into because of the threat of Ukraine becoming Westernised.
Now you're regularly saying that Putin's aim has been to grab territory from Ukraine. And that he's winning in that War.
Which one is it?
It can't be both. Because if Putin doesn't destroy Ukraine as a functioning state, his invasion had guaranteed that the majority of Ukraine will be Western-looking for the test of the century.
And do stop this b*llocks about Ukrainian people being split 50/50 between West and Russian supporting blocs. You know the numbers were nothing like that, even before Putin invaded and tried to destroy the civilian infrastructure of the country (which is scarcely going to endear him is it - Dear Russia lovers: I will seal our relationship by destroying your electricity supply in the depth of winter. Love. Vlad.)
As for the voting, do check out the facts, always helpful when discussing the real world. And include Donbas in that - largely not included in the last elections.
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BRR.
You've told us all year that Putin's War was an essentially defensive operation which he was forced into because of the threat of Ukraine becoming Westernised.
Now you're regularly saying that Putin's aim has been to grab territory from Ukraine. And that he's winning in that War.
Which one is it?
It can't be both. Because if Putin doesn't destroy Ukraine as a functioning state, his invasion had guaranteed that the majority of Ukraine will be Western-looking for the test of the century.
And do stop this b*llocks about Ukrainian people being split 50/50 between West and Russian supporting blocs. You know the numbers were nothing like that, even before Putin invaded and tried to destroy the civilian infrastructure of the country (which is scarcely going to endear him is it - Dear Russia lovers: I will seal our relationship by destroying your electricity supply in the depth of winter. Love. Vlad.)
Several reasons for crippling the energy, one is certainly to demoralise. Then affecting military transportation. Military repairs. Military organisation in general. Its a war in case you missed that. Ukraine trying to do the same in Russia. The US and UK, doing the same to Germany. The US did that to Iraq. NATO did it to Serbia. Etc.
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To walk into Ukraine and take over the gov in Kiev wouldn't have neutralised Ukraine Military. You know the country is approx 50/50 pro Western Pro Russian, and in Kyiv more pro Western than in the east. Then holding down a population that is more resistant takes a lot of resources.
The land gained in the south and east was all the basic needed, for Crimea and Donbas.
Ukraine could have negotiated before the invasion, in fact were doing, tho Johnson stuck his foot in that door, on behalf of the Yanks.... and you know that story.
So having taking that initial territory, the object is to destroy Ukraine military.
Your idea of taking Kyiv first ain't a good one, wasn't the plan for good reason. Or maybe you can explain how that would work? (a BST reply on track would be novel!)
Why would a sovereign Country want to negotiate loss of territory to an aggressor?
To still have some territory after the negotiation?
Why would a Sovereign Country want to negotiate giving up territory to an aggressor?
To have some territory left after negotiation. As its going, quite possibly they'd have none.
Why would they have none given the Russians are struggling to hold on to Territory?
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BRR.
Remind me where exactly Ukraine has been engaged in a systematic policy to destroy Russia's civilian energy grid.
I think I missed that news item.
And while you're at it, tell me which election you are prattling on about.
Then finally, you could perhaps explain in what way Russia has advanced its strategic security vis-a-vis a supposed threat from Ukraine being Westernised.
Ukraine IS going to have NATO protection into the far future. It IS going to be joining the EU. How is that anything other than a total failure of Russian strategy?
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Aren't you assuming there will be a Ukraine? I doubt Russia wants its Western areas, but Poland does. A few other countries won't be adverse to taking a nibble too. And then who's going to pay back the tens of $billions owed to the USA from their aid? :blink: Not to mention $billions lost to the US as territory they own :ohmy:
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Why would they have none given the Russians are struggling to hold on to Territory?
Where's your info from? For some weeks, the North and South has been stable, the east has seen consistent Russian gains.
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Why would they have none given the Russians are struggling to hold on to Territory?
Where's your info from? For some weeks, the North and South has been stable, the east has seen consistent Russian gains.
Thats your stock answer, look at the maps showingUkraine reclaimed territory, it’s winter, there’ll not be much gains on either side until better weather arrives and the ground is conducive to troop movements, I could ask the same question, where is your info from, because you seem very reluctant at times to provide any
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Aren't you assuming there will be a Ukraine? I doubt Russia wants its Western areas, but Poland does. A few other countries won't be adverse to taking a nibble too. And then who's going to pay back the tens of $billions owed to the USA from their aid? :blink: Not to mention $billions lost to the US as territory they own :ohmy:
And wth that, I think this discussion has run out over the edge of the boundary or reality and off into la-la-land.
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Why would they have none given the Russians are struggling to hold on to Territory?
Where's your info from? For some weeks, the North and South has been stable, the east has seen consistent Russian gains.
Thats your stock answer, look at the maps showingUkraine reclaimed territory, it’s winter, there’ll not be much gains on either side until better weather arrives and the ground is conducive to troop movements, I could ask the same question, where is your info from, because you seem very reluctant at times to provide any
Filo. I'll translate.
Ukraine recaptured about 30,000 km^2 in Kharkiv and Kherson. Since then, the Wagner Group have won a couple of street blocks in Bakhmut.
So that's level playing.
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So what have the civilians of Kherson done to deserve this Russian shelling? I thought according to Russia they supported the Russian occupation as most of them were actually Russian
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Is this what's known as the fog of war?
https://twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1607503509670473728?t=aOTuzxTz0N1tyv9CESrDcg&s=19
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Is this what's known as the fog of war?
https://twitter.com/lesiavasylenko/status/1607503509670473728?t=aOTuzxTz0N1tyv9CESrDcg&s=19
Yes. It's f**king horrible. And totally unnecessary.
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Unnecessary. I take it you’re referring to Putin’s invasion of Ukraine?
Inevitable when you’re fighting for your country’s very existence as a result of an unnecessary invasion.
‘Casualties of war’. That covers many forms of casualty. We all know what atrocities the ‘Russian soldiers’ have inflicted on the civilian population. It’s incomprehensible, indefensible & obscene.
I hope that one day they are held to account, especially Putin. The little Russian Hitler.
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Yes, of course I'm saying it is the invasion that was unnecessary.
Putin was convinced that Ukraine would shite it and roll over, so he launched his imperialist land grab. Now he's trapped himself in a nightmare of his own making. And all he can do is launch missiles into residential areas.
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Why would they have none given the Russians are struggling to hold on to Territory?
Where's your info from? For some weeks, the North and South has been stable, the east has seen consistent Russian gains.
Thats your stock answer, look at the maps showingUkraine reclaimed territory, it’s winter, there’ll not be much gains on either side until better weather arrives and the ground is conducive to troop movements, I could ask the same question, where is your info from, because you seem very reluctant at times to provide any
Not reluctant, tho clearly you are.
Theti maps, new world atlas maps - others too. Pro and anti Uke. The live ua maps is the least reliable.
Relying on the grey areas there to give you a sense of what's happening is not too clever.
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:crying:
Aren't you assuming there will be a Ukraine? I doubt Russia wants its Western areas, but Poland does. A few other countries won't be adverse to taking a nibble too. And then who's going to pay back the tens of $billions owed to the USA from their aid? :blink: Not to mention $billions lost to the US as territory they own :ohmy:
And wth that, I think this discussion has run out over the edge of the boundary or reality and off into la-la-land.
Yet again, BST runs back to mammy "they won't give me my ball back!".
"but Billy, it's under your arm. Is it just to complicated out there for you?"
" :crying:"
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Yes, of course I'm saying it is the invasion that was unnecessary.
Putin was convinced that Ukraine would shite it and roll over, so he launched his imperialist land grab. Now he's trapped himself in a nightmare of his own making. And all he can do is launch missiles into residential areas.
You are the most clueless commentator on this bar none. I'll ask again, Donetsk? Shells? Are you still saying that's Russia firing?
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Why would they have none given the Russians are struggling to hold on to Territory?
Where's your info from? For some weeks, the North and South has been stable, the east has seen consistent Russian gains.
Thats your stock answer, look at the maps showingUkraine reclaimed territory, it’s winter, there’ll not be much gains on either side until better weather arrives and the ground is conducive to troop movements, I could ask the same question, where is your info from, because you seem very reluctant at times to provide any
Not reluctant, tho clearly you are.
Theti maps, new world atlas maps - others too. Pro and anti Uke. The live ua maps is the least reliable.
Relying on the grey areas there to give you a sense of what's happening is not too clever.
And how do you establish the least reliable maps?
Is those that don’t fit your pro Russian narrative?
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Why would they have none given the Russians are struggling to hold on to Territory?
Where's your info from? For some weeks, the North and South has been stable, the east has seen consistent Russian gains.
Thats your stock answer, look at the maps showingUkraine reclaimed territory, it’s winter, there’ll not be much gains on either side until better weather arrives and the ground is conducive to troop movements, I could ask the same question, where is your info from, because you seem very reluctant at times to provide any
Not reluctant, tho clearly you are.
Theti maps, new world atlas maps - others too. Pro and anti Uke. The live ua maps is the least reliable.
Relying on the grey areas there to give you a sense of what's happening is not too clever.
And how do you establish the least reliable maps?
Is those that don’t fit your pro Russian narrative?
Observe the ones that are up to date more consistently with verifiable info, eg geolocated pics and vids, and info in general. What do you do?
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Why would they have none given the Russians are struggling to hold on to Territory?
Where's your info from? For some weeks, the North and South has been stable, the east has seen consistent Russian gains.
Thats your stock answer, look at the maps showingUkraine reclaimed territory, it’s winter, there’ll not be much gains on either side until better weather arrives and the ground is conducive to troop movements, I could ask the same question, where is your info from, because you seem very reluctant at times to provide any
Not reluctant, tho clearly you are.
Theti maps, new world atlas maps - others too. Pro and anti Uke. The live ua maps is the least reliable.
Relying on the grey areas there to give you a sense of what's happening is not too clever.
And how do you establish the least reliable maps?
Is those that don’t fit your pro Russian narrative?
Observe the ones that are up to date more consistently with verifiable info, eg geolocated pics and vids, and info in general. What do you do?
Keep my eyes open and evaluate for myself, 120 rockets launched at Ukraine today, many on Kherson, the place where Russia said wanted to be Russian, lies and deflection all the time from Russia and their useful idiots
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BBC News.
Ukraine was sea-change for openness – GCHQ head, Sir Jeremy Fleming.
The head of US intelligence, Avril Haines, said lessons had been learned including the limits of such moves to publicise intelligence. "Authoritarian states have this kind of asymmetric advantage where they're effectively controlling the information to their populations," Ms Haines said.
She added that Russia also tried to take advantage of the open information flow in western societies to promote their narratives and exacerbate divisions in society.
"The Russians engaged in a very concerted information campaign around the world on these issues," she said. "One of their main narratives is the United States is provoking this conflict, and that Nato and Ukraine are setting the conditions and threatening Russia and that sort of forced them into this position."
I reckon she's been reading this Forum.
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:crying:Aren't you assuming there will be a Ukraine? I doubt Russia wants its Western areas, but Poland does. A few other countries won't be adverse to taking a nibble too. And then who's going to pay back the tens of $billions owed to the USA from their aid? :blink: Not to mention $billions lost to the US as territory they own :ohmy:
And wth that, I think this discussion has run out over the edge of the boundary or reality and off into la-la-land.
Yet again, BST runs back to mammy "they won't give me my ball back!".
"but Billy, it's under your arm. Is it just to complicated out there for you?"
" :crying:"
Nope. It's because you're dribbling out the same absolute bullshit that Dmitri Medvedev Tweeted a few days ago.
I'm starting to think that you're so immersed in Kremlin propaganda that you no longer realise what you are doing.
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BBC News.
Ukraine was sea-change for openness – GCHQ head, Sir Jeremy Fleming.
The head of US intelligence, Avril Haines, said lessons had been learned including the limits of such moves to publicise intelligence. "Authoritarian states have this kind of asymmetric advantage where they're effectively controlling the information to their populations," Ms Haines said.
She added that Russia also tried to take advantage of the open information flow in western societies to promote their narratives and exacerbate divisions in society.
"The Russians engaged in a very concerted information campaign around the world on these issues," she said. "One of their main narratives is the United States is provoking this conflict, and that Nato and Ukraine are setting the conditions and threatening Russia and that sort of forced them into this position."
I reckon she's been reading this Forum.
BBC article saying how all the info suggesting the Western narrative is at least not the whole story is Russian propahanda lies. Oh, my.... what a shocker :lol:
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:crying:Aren't you assuming there will be a Ukraine? I doubt Russia wants its Western areas, but Poland does. A few other countries won't be adverse to taking a nibble too. And then who's going to pay back the tens of $billions owed to the USA from their aid? :blink: Not to mention $billions lost to the US as territory they own :ohmy:
And wth that, I think this discussion has run out over the edge of the boundary or reality and off into la-la-land.
Yet again, BST runs back to mammy &quot;they won't give me my ball back!&quot;.
&quot;but Billy, it's under your arm. Is it just to complicated out there for you?&quot;
&quot; :crying:&quot;
Nope. It's because you're dribbling out the same absolute bullshit that Dmitri Medvedev Tweeted a few days ago.
I'm starting to think that you're so immersed in Kremlin propaganda that you no longer realise what you are doing.
Are you saying the aid isn't a loan? That the US doesn't have huge investments and possessions in Ukraine? What are you saying? Do try and spit it out old chumly.
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BRR
If you truly believe Poland is going to do a land grab on Western Ukraine, you're beyond help.
As I say, you're so immersed in the Kremlin line without even realising it, it's squirmingly embarrassing to watch.
-
BBC News.
Ukraine was sea-change for openness – GCHQ head, Sir Jeremy Fleming.
The head of US intelligence, Avril Haines, said lessons had been learned including the limits of such moves to publicise intelligence. "Authoritarian states have this kind of asymmetric advantage where they're effectively controlling the information to their populations," Ms Haines said.
She added that Russia also tried to take advantage of the open information flow in western societies to promote their narratives and exacerbate divisions in society.
"The Russians engaged in a very concerted information campaign around the world on these issues," she said. "One of their main narratives is the United States is provoking this conflict, and that Nato and Ukraine are setting the conditions and threatening Russia and that sort of forced them into this position."
I reckon she's been reading this Forum.
Interesting line from her. I sometimes worry how much of the culture war stuff is perpetuated by Chinese / Russians. “Look how horrible the west is”.
-
BBC News.
Ukraine was sea-change for openness – GCHQ head, Sir Jeremy Fleming.
The head of US intelligence, Avril Haines, said lessons had been learned including the limits of such moves to publicise intelligence. "Authoritarian states have this kind of asymmetric advantage where they're effectively controlling the information to their populations," Ms Haines said.
She added that Russia also tried to take advantage of the open information flow in western societies to promote their narratives and exacerbate divisions in society.
"The Russians engaged in a very concerted information campaign around the world on these issues," she said. "One of their main narratives is the United States is provoking this conflict, and that Nato and Ukraine are setting the conditions and threatening Russia and that sort of forced them into this position."
I reckon she's been reading this Forum.
Interesting line from her. I sometimes worry how much of the culture war stuff is perpetuated by Chinese / Russians. “Look how horrible the west is”.
It's Russian foreign policy to effectively wage war on the West using our own addiction to online information. They spread discord and believable misinformation wherever they can. They directly interfere with elections (2016 US Election for example - Russia delivering hacked emails to Assange at exactly the best times to support Trump's campaign). But more insidiously, they try to blow smoke over every online discussion theme, by either pushing a direct Kremlin line, or pouring out so much credible misinformation that anyone online can find something that supports what they want to believe is true. The overall aim is to do what dictatorships have always done and what George Orwell was so terrified about - to destroy the concept of a working version of Objective Truth. Once that has gone, there's no holding power to account. You see it daily in this very thread.
Have a dig around on the Internet Research Agency.
-
BBC News.
Ukraine was sea-change for openness – GCHQ head, Sir Jeremy Fleming.
The head of US intelligence, Avril Haines, said lessons had been learned including the limits of such moves to publicise intelligence. "Authoritarian states have this kind of asymmetric advantage where they're effectively controlling the information to their populations," Ms Haines said.
She added that Russia also tried to take advantage of the open information flow in western societies to promote their narratives and exacerbate divisions in society.
"The Russians engaged in a very concerted information campaign around the world on these issues," she said. "One of their main narratives is the United States is provoking this conflict, and that Nato and Ukraine are setting the conditions and threatening Russia and that sort of forced them into this position."
I reckon she's been reading this Forum.
Interesting line from her. I sometimes worry how much of the culture war stuff is perpetuated by Chinese / Russians. “Look how horrible the west is”.
It's Russian foreign policy to effectively wage war on the West using our own addiction to online information. They spread discord and believable misinformation wherever they can. They directly interfere with elections (2016 US Election for example - Russia delivering hacked emails to Assange at exactly the best times to support Trump's campaign). But more insidiously, they try to blow smoke over every online discussion theme, by either pushing a direct Kremlin line, or pouring out so much credible misinformation that anyone online can find something that supports what they want to believe is true. The overall aim is to do what dictatorships have always done and what George Orwell was so terrified about - to destroy the concept of a working version of Objective Truth. Once that has gone, there's no holding power to account. You see it daily in this very thread.
Have a dig around on the Internet Research Agency.
Shall do, thanks
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BRR
If you truly believe Poland is going to do a land grab on Western Ukraine, you're beyond help.
As I say, you're so immersed in the Kremlin line without even realising it, it's squirmingly embarrassing to watch.
Here you go again like a sheet flapping in the wind. Get a grip. Stick to what is said rather than your own over excitable misinterpretation, and maybe you'll find ground beneath your feet. Or eat less smarties.
I didn't say Poland or Hungary or Romania would take a bite of the East of Ukraine. You made that up, its called disinformation, something you consistently specialise in. No idea why you think it's helpful to anyone? Insecurity? Anger? Too many smarties?
I said - and check it if you can focus that long - that Russia won't be wanting Western Ukraine, but other countries do fancy some, eg Poland which has a historical claim there. Not saying it "will" take it, but it, its people, the country, most likely fancies it.
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BST - no comment about US aid being a loan?
Nothing about Ukraine's relentless shelling and murdering of civilians in Donetsk with artillery?
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Why would they have none given the Russians are struggling to hold on to Territory?
Where's your info from? For some weeks, the North and South has been stable, the east has seen consistent Russian gains.
Thats your stock answer, look at the maps showingUkraine reclaimed territory, it’s winter, there’ll not be much gains on either side until better weather arrives and the ground is conducive to troop movements, I could ask the same question, where is your info from, because you seem very reluctant at times to provide any
Not reluctant, tho clearly you are.
Theti maps, new world atlas maps - others too. Pro and anti Uke. The live ua maps is the least reliable.
Relying on the grey areas there to give you a sense of what's happening is not too clever.
And how do you establish the least reliable maps?
Is those that don’t fit your pro Russian narrative?
Observe the ones that are up to date more consistently with verifiable info, eg geolocated pics and vids, and info in general. What do you do?
Keep my eyes open and evaluate for myself, 120 rockets launched at Ukraine today, many on Kherson, the place where Russia said wanted to be Russian, lies and deflection all the time from Russia and their useful idiots
Aren't you using maps to view changing frontlines? If so, which ones? Whose reports?
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BRR
If you truly believe Poland is going to do a land grab on Western Ukraine, you're beyond help.
As I say, you're so immersed in the Kremlin line without even realising it, it's squirmingly embarrassing to watch.
Here you go again like a sheet flapping in the wind. Get a grip. Stick to what is said rather than your own over excitable misinterpretation, and maybe you'll find ground beneath your feet. Or eat less smarties.
I didn't say Poland or Hungary or Romania would take a bite of the East of Ukraine. You made that up, its called disinformation, something you consistently specialise in. No idea why you think it's helpful to anyone? Insecurity? Anger? Too many smarties?
I said - and check it if you can focus that long - that Russia won't be wanting Western Ukraine, but other countries do fancy some, eg Poland which has a historical claim there. Not saying it "will" take it, but it, its people, the country, most likely fancies it.
You wrote: "Aren't you assuming there will be a Ukraine? I doubt Russia wants its Western areas, but Poland does."
IF you don't intend to give the impression that you, like the Kremlin, think Ukraine will lose territory to Poland, don't write stupid stuff like that.
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BRR
If you truly believe Poland is going to do a land grab on Western Ukraine, you're beyond help.
As I say, you're so immersed in the Kremlin line without even realising it, it's squirmingly embarrassing to watch.
Here you go again like a sheet flapping in the wind. Get a grip. Stick to what is said rather than your own over excitable misinterpretation, and maybe you'll find ground beneath your feet. Or eat less smarties.
I didn't say Poland or Hungary or Romania would take a bite of the East of Ukraine. You made that up, its called disinformation, something you consistently specialise in. No idea why you think it's helpful to anyone? Insecurity? Anger? Too many smarties?
I said - and check it if you can focus that long - that Russia won't be wanting Western Ukraine, but other countries do fancy some, eg Poland which has a historical claim there. Not saying it &quot;will&quot; take it, but it, its people, the country, most likely fancies it.
You wrote: "Aren't you assuming there will be a Ukraine? I doubt Russia wants its Western areas, but Poland does."
IF you don't intend to give the impression that you, like the Kremlin, think Ukraine will lose territory to Poland, don't write stupid stuff like that.
Yawn....
You doubt Poland would like that territory?
Oh, yeah, forgot. Its not what the BBC are saying, or the edited comments of the EU are saying.
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BBC News.
Ukraine was sea-change for openness – GCHQ head, Sir Jeremy Fleming.
The head of US intelligence, Avril Haines, said lessons had been learned including the limits of such moves to publicise intelligence. "Authoritarian states have this kind of asymmetric advantage where they're effectively controlling the information to their populations," Ms Haines said.
She added that Russia also tried to take advantage of the open information flow in western societies to promote their narratives and exacerbate divisions in society.
"The Russians engaged in a very concerted information campaign around the world on these issues," she said. "One of their main narratives is the United States is provoking this conflict, and that Nato and Ukraine are setting the conditions and threatening Russia and that sort of forced them into this position."
I reckon she's been reading this Forum.
Interesting line from her. I sometimes worry how much of the culture war stuff is perpetuated by Chinese / Russians. “Look how horrible the west is”.
All of it. Has been since 1948.
What you are witnessing now is exactly the same as the story I mentioned the other week about members of the British left denying the Hungarian version of the 1956 uprising but supporting the Soviet one - despite having all the information available to them.
There is no point arguing with a Putin propogandist. Whether or not they realise or admit to that is irrelevant, we know they are because we can read that what they are saying is exactly the same as he is saying - and what he wants them to write.
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BRR.
Do I really have to spell it out to you?
It appears I do.
1) You wrote "Aren't you assuming there will be a Ukraine?"
2) Immediately following that, you wrote, "I doubt Russia wants its Western areas, but Poland does."
See, that, in standard English, seems to me, indisputably to say you think there may be existential threats to Ukraine as a viable nation state, and that Poland is one of them. And since the post you were replying to when you said that was talking about the immediate future, presumably, you think that Polish threat is present right now.
Except, you are saying you meant nothing of the sort. In which case, what the f**k were you prattling on about?
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BRR.
Do I really have to spell it out to you?
It appears I do.
1) You wrote "Aren't you assuming there will be a Ukraine?"
2) Immediately following that, you wrote, "I doubt Russia wants its Western areas, but Poland does."
See, that, in standard English, seems to me, indisputably to say you think there may be existential threats to Ukraine as a viable nation state, and that Poland is one of them. And since the post you were replying to when you said that was talking about the immediate future, presumably, you think that Polish threat is present right now.
Except, you are saying you meant nothing of the sort. In which case, what the f**k were you prattling on about?
Muddying the waters and deflection
It’s what his hero Putin and Russia do
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#GorsadKyiv
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Have a listen to this I discovered today: -
www.youtube.com/watch?v=og0X3-lDQts
On Russia did the West and particularly the US miss a great opportunity in the 1990s?
I would say so.
Yeltsin wanted to bring in free-market capitalism but buggered up economic reforms so spectacularly the 90s were actually a period of depression for Russia.
That's the environment under which Putin came to power.
Where was the economic, financial and trade support from the West esp the US at this time?
Why was this not on the same scale as correctly provided to both West Germany and Japan after WW2?
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I've said for years THE biggest f**k up of the 20th century was the West not offering a massive Marshall Plan to Russia in 1991. Bring them into the fold like the original did for West Germany.
Trouble was, we had a minor recession and all eyes were on saving money in the West. John Major and Bill Clinton in charges when we needed proper statesman-like leaders with serious vision.
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Thought this was good
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''Russia-Ukraine war live: head of Russian Orthodox church calls for temporary ceasefire''
He obviously hasn't heard of the russian windows program.
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I really enjoyed watching the documentary last night about Ukraine. Love the use of hand held drones to target enemy positions, but by hell do they need training around use of Mortars. What a waste of shells.
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''Russia-Ukraine war live: head of Russian Orthodox church calls for temporary ceasefire''
He obviously hasn't heard of the russian windows program.
This one :laugh:
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I really enjoyed watching the documentary last night about Ukraine. Love the use of hand held drones to target enemy positions, but by hell do they need training around use of Mortars. What a waste of shells.
Yes, I thought that too. Got to admire them though. Showing real ingenuity adapting drone technology
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https://open.spotify.com/episode/406fOiiKMU0ot5AS1AIwve?si=mcubCY3ITHOsPCwpNCq77Q
I know some of you might see it’s Rogan and just not listen, but it’s very insightful. Also brilliant on why we need to support Ukraine and what the future holds for Russia (it isn’t good).
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Aye, aye.
General Surovikin has been replaced by the (previous failure) General Gerasimov as head of the Russian invasion.
Surovikin is the one who championed the disgusting, but potent policy of launching drone missiles at civilian infrastructure to try to freeze Ukraine out of the war.
Did he get too much of a threat to Putin? Or is Putin now bricking it about having authorised 6 months of textbook war crimes? Or has Surovikin run out of drones? Or is Putin reverting back to the General he first trusted to run an aggressive land campaign? Maybe planning for a Spring offensive with all his new conscripts?
Whichever, this is big, big news.
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Yet more Russian missile strikes today on critical military infrastructure carefully disguised as civilian apartment blocks.
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Still waiting on your condemnation on Ukraine attacks on civilians.
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The effects of sending of main battle tanks from UK and Germany will be interesting to observe both in how they perform and the effect on Russian's support for the war.
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Russian military top brass have suggested that sending MBT’s will cross the red line, so to speak.
What about the HIMARS then? If that doesn’t cross red lines, then it seems Russian warnings are hollow rhetoric.
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Russian military top brass have suggested that sending MBT’s will cross the red line, so to speak.
What about the HIMARS then? If that doesn’t cross red lines, then it seems Russian warnings are hollow rhetoric.
It seems a minor escalation from NATO, partly as the numbers are so small. I think the red line talk is predictable, just on par with what is said from both sides. The main point is that statement is highlighting this for the Russian public - having German tanks up against Russians is especially emotive for obvious reasons, though seeing NATO as upping their input in any way will increase the Russian public's support for the war.
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The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!
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The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!
And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.
However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it?
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The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!
And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.
However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it?
The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of Russia
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It will be nice to see challengers taking out a few Russian tanks. From what I’ve seen, the Ukrainian use of mortars is none too effective.
If my memory serves, the 120mm shells can hit their target from about 3 km out. In fact I think it holds the distance record for a tank on tank hit. 4km in the gulf war.
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The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!
And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.
However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it?
The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of Russia
There was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU, were fully behind fuelling a war, Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.
To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water.
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The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!
And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.
However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it?
The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of Russia
There was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU, were fully behind fuelling a war, Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.
To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water.
And you have proof from sources other than the Russian propaganda machine?
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The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!
And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.
However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it?
The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of Russia
There was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU, were fully behind fuelling a war, Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.
To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water.
In December Putin began building up troops on Ukraine's border. He insisted in no way were these troops preparing for an invasion of Ukraine but were 'only' conducting exercises. He continued to insist this until the day they invaded.
He also insisted it was a 'special military operation'. In which other conflict does bombing civilian apartment blocks, schools and hospitals equate to 'military operations'?
To see it your way is the arsonist holding a can of petrol and a box of matches insisting he was just stopping for a smoke.
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The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!
And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.
However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it?
The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of Russia
There was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU, were fully behind fuelling a war, Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.
To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water.
And you have proof from sources other than the Russian propaganda machine?
Obviously not the full discussion, but as clear as you can hope for.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-call-with-president-zelenskyy-of-ukraine-21-february-2022
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The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!
And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.
However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it?
The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of Russia
There was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU, were fully behind fuelling a war, Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.
To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water.
In December Putin began building up troops on Ukraine's border. He insisted in no way were these troops preparing for an invasion of Ukraine but were 'only' conducting exercises. He continued to insist this until the day they invaded.
He also insisted it was a 'special military operation'. In which other conflict does bombing civilian apartment blocks, schools and hospitals equate to 'military operations'?
To see it your way is the arsonist holding a can of petrol and a box of matches insisting he was just stopping for a smoke.
Of course no one is going to say they're about to do anything militarily.
There's always mistakes in targeting. Ukraine at least as guilty. Tho remember Ukraine's made a habit of hanging out in schools and hospitals, and parking tanks in amongst civilians, as well as taking human shields. No doubt Russia did this too, but seems it was a very strong tactic from Ukraine's - eg Amnesty Int.
Your simili makes no sense.
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AS90 on their way to Ukraine also.
They could be a real game changer.
With good scoping/Intel/ targeting, these things can take out Russian armour and artillery from 20 plus kilometres away.
I hope they are being provided with enough shells.
They can fire three rounds every 10 seconds.
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The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!
And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.
However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it?
The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of Russia
There was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU, were fully behind fuelling a war, Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.
To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water.
And you have proof from sources other than the Russian propaganda machine?
Obviously not the full discussion, but as clear as you can hope for.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-call-with-president-zelenskyy-of-ukraine-21-february-2022
Help me out here cos I've had flu ad I'm not on top of my game.
In mid Feb 2022, Putin had amassed a couple of hundred thousand troops and several thousand tanks on the Ukraine border.
Putin had just (illegally under international law) recognised as independent, two regions of Ukraine that he had already had troops in for 8 years.
A few months ago, he had given a fanatical speech in which he denied that Ukraine had any right to exist as an independent state.
In the UK Govt report of the call that you've just pasted, these words appear, "The leaders agreed that the West needed to support Ukraine in the event of an invasion but should continue to pursue a diplomatic solution until the last possible second."
You appear to be telling us that Boris Johnson put a stop to the diplomatic process (posting those precise words as your evidence) and that Ukraine "chose" to be invaded.
I'm really struggling to join up the dots here. Can you fill in the gaps that are obviously clear to you, but which I'm having trouble with?
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I wonder just how much longer Putin has.
Their country is losing billions every month in gdp.
The rich and powerful are seeing their amassed fortunes evaporate.
He has troops actively seeking surrender, some already have.
He is losing the support of those countries who would normally stand by him, leaving North Korea and Iran as lone advocates.
In sep 22 it was cited that Russia has enough money to fund the war for at least another 2 years. (Wilson enter.org) But what then?
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I wonder just how much longer Putin has.
Their country is losing billions every month in gdp.
The rich and powerful are seeing their amassed fortunes evaporate.
He has troops actively seeking surrender, some already have.
He is losing the support of those countries who would normally stand by him, leaving North Korea and Iran as lone advocates.
In sep 22 it was cited that Russia has enough money to fund the war for at least another 2 years. (Wilson enter.org) But what then?
He was counting on a cold winter and EU states being forced to push Ukraine into surrender to acquire Russian gas. Doesn't look like that is going to happen now due to mild weather & good planning.
I see also he is preparing to widen conscription to older age groups. Never a good sign for them or their families. Spring campaign do you reckon?
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I wonder just how much longer Putin has.
Their country is losing billions every month in gdp.
The rich and powerful are seeing their amassed fortunes evaporate.
He has troops actively seeking surrender, some already have.
He is losing the support of those countries who would normally stand by him, leaving North Korea and Iran as lone advocates.
In sep 22 it was cited that Russia has enough money to fund the war for at least another 2 years. (Wilson enter.org) But what then?
He was counting on a cold winter and EU states being forced to push Ukraine into surrender to acquire Russian gas. Doesn't look like that is going to happen now due to mild weather & good planning.
I see also he is preparing to widen conscription to older age groups. Never a good sign for them or their families. Spring campaign do you reckon?
Yes. Listen to the first part of the podcast I posted it covers all this in detail.
Putin’s list of allies is comical, says it all.
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I wonder just how much longer Putin has.
Their country is losing billions every month in gdp.
The rich and powerful are seeing their amassed fortunes evaporate.
He has troops actively seeking surrender, some already have.
He is losing the support of those countries who would normally stand by him, leaving North Korea and Iran as lone advocates.
In sep 22 it was cited that Russia has enough money to fund the war for at least another 2 years. (Wilson enter.org) But what then?
I don’t consider -20c mild. Which is has been down to over Xmas new year in Luhansk. The next two weeks not so good either. Day time temps not much above freezing with -9 overnight.
Good for moving heavy artillery. Bad for keeping warm.
He was counting on a cold winter and EU states being forced to push Ukraine into surrender to acquire Russian gas. Doesn't look like that is going to happen now due to mild weather & good planning.
I see also he is preparing to widen conscription to older age groups. Never a good sign for them or their families. Spring campaign do you reckon?
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NR. Putin's calculations were based on Western and Central Europe having a cold winter.
He gambled that the EU populations and Governments were soft. If he cut the gas off and they got cold, they'd give in, stop supplying Ukraine and force Ukraine to capitulate to the Kremlin.
It is going down in history as one of THE biggest wrong decisions by a major leader, certainly since WWII. The European people and Governments have found a resolve and discipline that Putin didn't think they had. And as a result, there is absolutely no good outcome for Russia. Even if Ukrainian defences collapsed tomorrow, Europe is never going back to buying vast quantities of Russian oil. So Putin has f**ked up his country's biggest export market.
It's quite ironic when you think about it. His psy-ops were at least partly responsible for the UK choosing to f**k up its relations with its own largest export market. That was a big win for Putin, because it weakened both the UK and the EU. But the stupid Kitson has now done it to himself, on steroids.
I've said for a while that I don't buy this idea of Putin as a genius strategist. He's a low-grade thug, who has been clever enough to pick weak enemies in the past. That seemed to give him an inflated opinion of his own infallibility. But when it was really put to the test, he's f**ked up on a historic scale.
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He obviously knows little about Western Europe’s weather over the last few decades.
When was the last time we had a truly harsh winter?
My camellia in the back garden started flowering a month ago. It’s not meant to do that till early spring.
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The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!
And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.
However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it?
The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of Russia
There was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU, were fully behind fuelling a war, Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.
To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water.
And you have proof from sources other than the Russian propaganda machine?
Obviously not the full discussion, but as clear as you can hope for.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-call-with-president-zelenskyy-of-ukraine-21-february-2022
Help me out here cos I've had flu ad I'm not on top of my game.
In mid Feb 2022, Putin had amassed a couple of hundred thousand troops and several thousand tanks on the Ukraine border.
Putin had just (illegally under international law) recognised as independent, two regions of Ukraine that he had already had troops in for 8 years.
A few months ago, he had given a fanatical speech in which he denied that Ukraine had any right to exist as an independent state.
In the UK Govt report of the call that you've just pasted, these words appear, "The leaders agreed that the West needed to support Ukraine in the event of an invasion but should continue to pursue a diplomatic solution until the last possible second."
You appear to be telling us that Boris Johnson put a stop to the diplomatic process (posting those precise words as your evidence) and that Ukraine "chose" to be invaded.
I'm really struggling to join up the dots here. Can you fill in the gaps that are obviously clear to you, but which I'm having trouble with?
Minsk agreements
-
I wonder just how much longer Putin has.
Their country is losing billions every month in gdp.
The rich and powerful are seeing their amassed fortunes evaporate.
He has troops actively seeking surrender, some already have.
He is losing the support of those countries who would normally stand by him, leaving North Korea and Iran as lone advocates.
In sep 22 it was cited that Russia has enough money to fund the war for at least another 2 years. (Wilson enter.org) But what then?
Arguable about the Russian economy.
NATO getting ever more involved will increase the Russian public's support for the war. As far as I can see there's no sign of him losing popularity. More popular than Biden, more popular than Sunak.
China seems to be more on the side of Russia than it is on NATO's side.
Ukraine is losing many more troops and armour than Russia. Russia is gaining currently territory, and apart from the Kherson withdrawal and the Kharkiv retreat, has been gaining consistently though the main point is the destruction of Ukraine forces.
The war is unlukely to last 2 years.
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I wonder just how much longer Putin has.
Their country is losing billions every month in gdp.
The rich and powerful are seeing their amassed fortunes evaporate.
He has troops actively seeking surrender, some already have.
He is losing the support of those countries who would normally stand by him, leaving North Korea and Iran as lone advocates.
In sep 22 it was cited that Russia has enough money to fund the war for at least another 2 years. (Wilson enter.org) But what then?
Arguable about the Russian economy.
NATO getting ever more involved will increase the Russian public's support for the war. As far as I can see there's no sign of him losing popularity. More popular than Biden, more popular than Sunak.
China seems to be more on the side of Russia than it is on NATO's side.
Ukraine is losing many more troops and armour than Russia. Russia is gaining currently territory, and apart from the Kherson withdrawal and the Kharkiv retreat, has been gaining consistently though the main point is the destruction of Ukraine forces.
The war is unlukely to last 2 years.
How do you see it ending?
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The Russia Embassy in the UK said that sending Challenger 2 tanks to Ukraine is pouring petrol on the fire, thats like the arsonist blaming the fire brigade for the fire!
And that's like saying the mob with torches are the fire brigade.
However you see it, putting a few Challengers and Leopards in there is going to do nothing but fan the flames of war, and increase death. Hardly a fire brigade is it?
The flames of War should never have been ignited by an illegal invasion, Russia could end the War right now by leaving and going back to their own Country, it’s that simple, the War is the sole responsibility of Russia
There was an agreement being negotiated before the invasion. Boris Johnson intervened putting a halt to this and the invasion happened. Ukraine chose that path. NATO/USA/UK, EU, were fully behind fuelling a war, Russia was up for a war too but was in negotiations as mentioned before Johnson said no. Not that he was anything more than an evil lying clown stooge - as anyone in the UK knows full well.
To see it in your way is like seeing the fire service as water.
And you have proof from sources other than the Russian propaganda machine?
Obviously not the full discussion, but as clear as you can hope for.
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/pm-call-with-president-zelenskyy-of-ukraine-21-february-2022
Help me out here cos I've had flu ad I'm not on top of my game.
In mid Feb 2022, Putin had amassed a couple of hundred thousand troops and several thousand tanks on the Ukraine border.
Putin had just (illegally under international law) recognised as independent, two regions of Ukraine that he had already had troops in for 8 years.
A few months ago, he had given a fanatical speech in which he denied that Ukraine had any right to exist as an independent state.
In the UK Govt report of the call that you've just pasted, these words appear, &quot;The leaders agreed that the West needed to support Ukraine in the event of an invasion but should continue to pursue a diplomatic solution until the last possible second.&quot;
You appear to be telling us that Boris Johnson put a stop to the diplomatic process (posting those precise words as your evidence) and that Ukraine &quot;chose&quot; to be invaded.
I'm really struggling to join up the dots here. Can you fill in the gaps that are obviously clear to you, but which I'm having trouble with?
Minsk agreements
And?
YOU posted a link to a UK Govt statement which said they were still supporting diplomacy. The statement was made at a time when Putin had the thick end of a quarter of a million troops poised to invade Ukraine, and he'd just illegally recognised the independence of two parts of Ukraine where his troops had been fighting for 8 years.
Here are the bits I don't get. Why was the the breakdown of the Minsk negotiations the UK's fault? Why did the UK actions lead to war? And what on earth was there in that statement YOU posted to support that claim?
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What do you think Johnson was instructed to say? "We'll be sending you all you need to beat the Ruskies, 100 billion should do it, just don't let on its a loan though. You can pay it back with land to us. "
As soon as it was clear there'd be a backing out from Minsk, after Johnson's interjection. It was either invasion or leave the Donbas to right wing Ukraine troops to do their will and have NATO swanning in. You know that was unacceptable to the Russians, as did Johnson. Cue proxy war.
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Right.
I'm clearly REALLY struggling here so bear with me.
The Minsk 2 negotiations were about trying to find a mutually acceptable solution to the previous Russian invasion of Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk.
While those negotiations were going on, Putin mobilised 200,000 soldiers and several thousand tanks. And recognised LPR and DPR as independent states. And ranted that Ukraine had no right to exist.
Give me a minute cos I'm trying to get this next step...It was the UK's fault that the negotiations collapse and Russia launched a full invasion?
Have I got that right? Only, it seems, like...f**king mad.
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I wonder just how much longer Putin has.
Their country is losing billions every month in gdp.
The rich and powerful are seeing their amassed fortunes evaporate.
He has troops actively seeking surrender, some already have.
He is losing the support of those countries who would normally stand by him, leaving North Korea and Iran as lone advocates.
In sep 22 it was cited that Russia has enough money to fund the war for at least another 2 years. (Wilson enter.org) But what then?
Arguable about the Russian economy.
NATO getting ever more involved will increase the Russian public's support for the war. As far as I can see there's no sign of him losing popularity. More popular than Biden, more popular than Sunak.
China seems to be more on the side of Russia than it is on NATO's side.
Ukraine is losing many more troops and armour than Russia. Russia is gaining currently territory, and apart from the Kherson withdrawal and the Kharkiv retreat, has been gaining consistently though the main point is the destruction of Ukraine forces.
The war is unlukely to last 2 years.
How do you see it ending?
I can't see NATO holding back Russia without upping the stakes much much further, and the cost of that will be immense.
Tricky to say, but I think Russia will take at least half of old Ukraine. I can't see them wanting the North West parts but necessity may dictate that.
I think there's likely to be some big battles over the Spring and Summer but with the troop and armour losses for Ukraine there is a point where they'll capitulate. Long term, it could be that NATO/US will fund smaller scale skirmishes and mini offences if there is any old Ukraine left. That would be a reason for Russia to take the lot?
What's your take on the future there?
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Right.
I'm clearly REALLY struggling here so bear with me.
The Minsk 2 negotiations were about trying to find a mutually acceptable solution to the previous Russian invasion of Crimea, Donetsk and Luhansk.
While those negotiations were going on, Putin mobilised 200,000 soldiers and several thousand tanks. And recognised LPR and DPR as independent states. And ranted that Ukraine had no right to exist.
Give me a minute cos I'm trying to get this next step...It was the UK's fault that the negotiations collapse and Russia launched a full invasion?
Have I got that right? Only, it seems, like...f**king mad.
UK, USA, "NATO", but yes. The basic thrust of Minsk is out there to see. Ukraine was negotiating until Johnson delivered the message from his puppet masters.
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What do you think Johnson was instructed to say? "We'll be sending you all you need to beat the Ruskies, 100 billion should do it, just don't let on its a loan though. You can pay it back with land to us. "
As soon as it was clear there'd be a backing out from Minsk, after Johnson's interjection. It was either invasion or leave the Donbas to right wing Ukraine troops to do their will and have NATO swanning in. You know that was unacceptable to the Russians, as did Johnson. Cue proxy war.
Johnson was funded by the Russians. He put one of them in the house of Lords. He only supported Ukraine after the EU began to sanction the oligarchs - and to distract from partygate.
The right wing dictatorial Russian goverment broke Minsk with an illegal invasion in 2014. When they blew civilian aircraft out of the sky. Then compounded their fascist ruler's imperial fantasy of a Greater Russia by invading an independent country in February 2022. An action that up until the first troops moved across the border he insisted he had no intention of doing and talk that he would was 'western propoganda'.
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What's your take on the future there?
Only Putin can end the invasion. And who would trust him to hold to any negotiated settlement.
Ukraine wont surrender. Or they will be murdered and their families raped and abused.
So Putin either has to win, occupy the whole of Ukraine & wipe out the Ukrainian population - or Ukraine holds him up and he is deposed in a coup.
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I still think as this war drags on, with all the loss of life and property, that the chance of a peace deal being brokered could still be possible. A bit like the Dayton accord that was drawn up in Bosnia.
In the 2001 Ukrainian census, 8,334,100 identified themselves as ethnic Russians (17.3% of the population of Ukraine).
Zelensky himself will have to concede land at some point in favour of life.
I cannot see any other outcome. I’m not saying it’s right. I’m just saying it’s the only sensible compromise. Forget Putin. After him, a Russia who retreats and yields everything gained so far will cease to be recognised on the global military stage as they once were. So I can never see that happening either.
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BRR.
So you're just going to ignore the three things I pointed out. No surprise there.
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This is superb analysis of the utter disaster that Putin has led Russia into.
https://www.ft.com/content/42367891-bde7-4770-95f4-460d0762215b?sharetype=blocked
No possible victory. Just different degrees of losses and a historic weakening of Russia for decades to come.
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BRR.
So you're just going to ignore the three things I pointed out. No surprise there.
The Russian military was sitting there. No agreement caused the invasion, instantly.
Or maybe you were making some other point?
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This is superb analysis of the utter disaster that Putin has led Russia into.
https://www.ft.com/content/42367891-bde7-4770-95f4-460d0762215b?sharetype=blocked
No possible victory. Just different degrees of losses and a historic weakening of Russia for decades to come.
The FT. Its like the Telegraph publishing an article on the demise of the Labour Party, whilst the Tories are running into the cuckoo nest. Politics and propaganda. You'll be citing the DM next old boy.
So far, the west, no doubt the FT too, and probably you, have predicted the demise of Russians military - no shells, no tanks, no missiles, troops surrendering - all very transparent b*llocks innit, though many swallow it as much as they swallow the rest of the establishment media trough. How much weaker is the west from all this? Economically, militarily, and geo politically? Egg on their chin too.
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Putin to make a big announcement today apparently.
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BRR.
So you're just going to ignore the three things I pointed out. No surprise there.
The Russian military was sitting there. No agreement caused the invasion, instantly.
Or maybe you were making some other point?
Oh! Silly me! Of course, the Russian army was just siting there!
And Putin's illegal recognition of the independence of LPR and DPR was intended as a friendly gesture to Ukraine, rather than a "f**k you" to the Minsk 2 negotiations.
And when Putin ranted that Ukraine had no historic right to exist, he was just joshing.
It all makes sense now. I can't understand why I didn't see it before.
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Putin to make a big announcement today apparently.
Probably extending the age range for conscription
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Putin to make a big announcement today apparently.
Probably extending the age range for conscription
Anyone still alive who fought in WW11 to report to their nearest military base immediately……& bring a gun.
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Putin to make a big announcement today apparently.
Probably extending the age range for conscription
Anyone still alive who fought in WW11 to report to their nearest military base immediately……& bring a gun.
If you haven’t got a gun, it doesn’t matter you’re going to die anyeay
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BRR.
So you're just going to ignore the three things I pointed out. No surprise there.
The Russian military was sitting there. No agreement caused the invasion, instantly.
Or maybe you were making some other point?
Oh! Silly me! Of course, the Russian army was just siting there!
And Putin's illegal recognition of the independence of LPR and DPR was intended as a friendly gesture to Ukraine, rather than a "f**k you" to the Minsk 2 negotiations.
And when Putin ranted that Ukraine had no historic right to exist, he was just joshing.
It all makes sense now. I can't understand why I didn't see it before.
Remember Johnson had visited Zelensky not long before then. It would have been more likely that visit and discussion that turned Ukraine from negotiations towards a war footing.
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Aaaannnnddd once again you ignore the three things I've repeated a dozen times.
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Whereas you reply to everything? :lol:
Spit it out, and be clear with asking a question or highlighting your issue. Not like you to hold back is it.
Meanwhile, do go back and reply to all my points :cold:
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You haven't made a single point worth addressing. You just dribble out the Kremlin line unfiltered.
You obsess over a handful of mistakes early in the war when Ukrainian front line forces hit civilian areas in Donbas with misdirected mortars, yet you haven't a word of condemnation for months and months of deliberate, prolonged Russian attacks on civilian targets hundreds of miles from the front. .
You are so twisted by your obsession that NATO, the EU and the West in general are evil, that you cannot see the most egregious imperialistic war of aggression for what it is.
You ignore the unquestionable evidence that Putin CHOSE this war because he thought it would result in a rapid victory and a step towards his Greater Russia dream.
I respond to you simply to point out the stupidity of the stances that your ideology takes you to. I've no interest in debating with you.
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I wonder just how much longer Putin has.
Their country is losing billions every month in gdp.
The rich and powerful are seeing their amassed fortunes evaporate.
He has troops actively seeking surrender, some already have.
He is losing the support of those countries who would normally stand by him, leaving North Korea and Iran as lone advocates.
In sep 22 it was cited that Russia has enough money to fund the war for at least another 2 years. (Wilson enter.org) But what then?
Arguable about the Russian economy.
NATO getting ever more involved will increase the Russian public's support for the war. As far as I can see there's no sign of him losing popularity. More popular than Biden, more popular than Sunak.
China seems to be more on the side of Russia than it is on NATO's side.
Ukraine is losing many more troops and armour than Russia. Russia is gaining currently territory, and apart from the Kherson withdrawal and the Kharkiv retreat, has been gaining consistently though the main point is the destruction of Ukraine forces.
The war is unlukely to last 2 years.
How do you see it ending?
I can't see NATO holding back Russia without upping the stakes much much further, and the cost of that will be immense.
Tricky to say, but I think Russia will take at least half of old Ukraine. I can't see them wanting the North West parts but necessity may dictate that.
I think there's likely to be some big battles over the Spring and Summer but with the troop and armour losses for Ukraine there is a point where they'll capitulate. Long term, it could be that NATO/US will fund smaller scale skirmishes and mini offences if there is any old Ukraine left. That would be a reason for Russia to take the lot?
What's your take on the future there?
I think the Russian state is doomed to fail now. We are just seeing a protraction of the collapse of the Soviet Union. The collapse of a large, sparsely populated, cold, barren, economically-isolated, totalitarian nation. A nation with a physically and mentally ill 70 year old man at the helm. One that cannot advance as no new ideas or progress is made for its people’s fear of speaking or acting out of turn.
I think they have invaded Ukraine to stop themselves getting weaker as opposed to the idea of a Greater Russia. If Russia were doing so well, they wouldn’t have had to invade a country with advantageous geography (flat, fertile, by the Black Sea, warmer). Also remember that their main train route in to Crimea got blown.
The decline will be accelerated once hundreds of thousands more young Russian men don’t return home to their families. Not to mention the knock effect this has on their demographics and subsequent population decline.
But this war will drag on and on I think, sadly.
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Nc
That article I posted last night briefly touched on the tragedy of Russia.
It is a middling sized economic power
(about on a par with Canada, Iran and Brazil) that has a massively oversized opinion of its own historical importance. Plus 7000 nukes.
The sensible approach for Russia over recent decades would have been to accept its role as a medium sized power and integrate itself with the world. The way Germany and France and Japan did. (And the way Britain partly did.)
Instead, run by thugs and crooks, they have clung to the idea that they are special. Historically destined to dominate their region.
A myth, propagated by bas**rds and clung to by a cowed, depressed populace.
It is such a tragedy. For Russia as much as for the peoples they lashed out at, from Grozny through Georgia and Aleppo, to Mariupol, while trying to enforce this poisonous idea of themselves as a Great Power.
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Why don't Presidents fight the war?
Why do they always send the poor?
BYOB.
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This is quite something ......
''Bulgaria secretly supplied Ukraine fuel and ammunition in early months of war
Former PM tells of crucial operation, which was launched covertly due to pro-Russia sympathies in political class''
''Bulgaria, one of the poorest EU members and long perceived as pro-Moscow, helped Ukraine survive Russia’s early onslaught by secretly supplying it with large amounts of desperately needed diesel and ammunition, the politicians responsible have said''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/18/bulgaria-secretly-supplied-ukraine-fuel-ammunition-first-months-war-russia
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You haven't made a single point worth addressing. You just dribble out the Kremlin line unfiltered.
You obsess over a handful of mistakes early in the war when Ukrainian front line forces hit civilian areas in Donbas with misdirected mortars, yet you haven't a word of condemnation for months and months of deliberate, prolonged Russian attacks on civilian targets hundreds of miles from the front. .
You are so twisted by your obsession that NATO, the EU and the West in general are evil, that you cannot see the most egregious imperialistic war of aggression for what it is.
You ignore the unquestionable evidence that Putin CHOSE this war because he thought it would result in a rapid victory and a step towards his Greater Russia dream.
I respond to you simply to point out the stupidity of the stances that your ideology takes you to. I've no interest in debating with you.
You've said that "I'm not debating with you" , and generally revert to immature insults, several times, yet continue with your attempts at debating endlessly, pushing your fixated pro USA angle.
Notable that you here outrightly deny Ukraines continued shelling of Donetsk, many civilians killed even over the past week. What are they targeting? I know Russians are not targeting civilians, but sometimes their missiles may be inaccurate, sometimes they are hit by Ukraine air defence - though that is progressively less so due to the progressive loss of their systems.
Unlike you, I condem all war, all actions by elites who scam and con the masses into sacrificing their lives, and taking others lives, for the benefit of mafia like thugs. I despise all power elites. You just don't like the evil Klingons. It's like a game of goodies and baddies to you. They're all sick.
Ive said the above endlessly but you evidently can't comprehend, or can't read, and most definitely dress everything you do consume in your rigid black and white pre conceived constructs.
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Nc
That article I posted last night briefly touched on the tragedy of Russia.
It is a middling sized economic power
(about on a par with Canada, Iran and Brazil) that has a massively oversized opinion of its own historical importance. Plus 7000 nukes.
The sensible approach for Russia over recent decades would have been to accept its role as a medium sized power and integrate itself with the world. The way Germany and France and Japan did. (And the way Britain partly did.)
Instead, run by thugs and crooks, they have clung to the idea that they are special. Historically destined to dominate their region.
A myth, propagated by bas**rds and clung to by a cowed, depressed populace.
It is such a tragedy. For Russia as much as for the peoples they lashed out at, from Grozny through Georgia and Aleppo, to Mariupol, while trying to enforce this poisonous idea of themselves as a Great Power.
Nevertheless, having been drawn into a war with proxy opponents using Slavs as cannon fodder, they are winning, taking lands from the USA, EU, and NATO. Who's the loser?
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With all due respect BRR I guess that would be you
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Nc
That article I posted last night briefly touched on the tragedy of Russia.
It is a middling sized economic power
(about on a par with Canada, Iran and Brazil) that has a massively oversized opinion of its own historical importance. Plus 7000 nukes.
The sensible approach for Russia over recent decades would have been to accept its role as a medium sized power and integrate itself with the world. The way Germany and France and Japan did. (And the way Britain partly did.)
Instead, run by thugs and crooks, they have clung to the idea that they are special. Historically destined to dominate their region.
A myth, propagated by bas**rds and clung to by a cowed, depressed populace.
It is such a tragedy. For Russia as much as for the peoples they lashed out at, from Grozny through Georgia and Aleppo, to Mariupol, while trying to enforce this poisonous idea of themselves as a Great Power.
Thanks but I can’t read it as I’m not subscribed
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Nc
That article I posted last night briefly touched on the tragedy of Russia.
It is a middling sized economic power
(about on a par with Canada, Iran and Brazil) that has a massively oversized opinion of its own historical importance. Plus 7000 nukes.
The sensible approach for Russia over recent decades would have been to accept its role as a medium sized power and integrate itself with the world. The way Germany and France and Japan did. (And the way Britain partly did.)
Instead, run by thugs and crooks, they have clung to the idea that they are special. Historically destined to dominate their region.
A myth, propagated by bas**rds and clung to by a cowed, depressed populace.
It is such a tragedy. For Russia as much as for the peoples they lashed out at, from Grozny through Georgia and Aleppo, to Mariupol, while trying to enforce this poisonous idea of themselves as a Great Power.
Nevertheless, having been drawn into a war with proxy opponents using Slavs as cannon fodder, they are winning, taking lands from the USA, EU, and NATO. Who's the loser?
In the list of quite disgracefully stupid comments you've made in this thread, this really stands out.
Drawn into a war...
Taking land from the EU, NATO and USA.
Is this what the tankie Russia fanboys are telling themselves is happening here?
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And here we go again.
The West finally offers Ukraine the means to drive Russia out.
Medvedev starts blustering about threats to Russia's existence and nuclear war.
There is no threat to Russia's existence. Leave Ukraine and the fighting stops. It's very simple. Russia carries on existing.
He talks b*llocks bu the way, saying no nuclear armed country has ever lost a major war.
Russia and America were both driven out of Afghanistan. America badly lost in Vietnam.
All bluff and blusterq and factual bullshit, just as the Kremlin regularly does. I expect Xi is on the phone telling them to wind their necks in or else.
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With all due respect BRR I guess that would be you
Such a charmer :laugh:
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Nc
That article I posted last night briefly touched on the tragedy of Russia.
It is a middling sized economic power
(about on a par with Canada, Iran and Brazil) that has a massively oversized opinion of its own historical importance. Plus 7000 nukes.
The sensible approach for Russia over recent decades would have been to accept its role as a medium sized power and integrate itself with the world. The way Germany and France and Japan did. (And the way Britain partly did.)
Instead, run by thugs and crooks, they have clung to the idea that they are special. Historically destined to dominate their region.
A myth, propagated by bas**rds and clung to by a cowed, depressed populace.
It is such a tragedy. For Russia as much as for the peoples they lashed out at, from Grozny through Georgia and Aleppo, to Mariupol, while trying to enforce this poisonous idea of themselves as a Great Power.
Nevertheless, having been drawn into a war with proxy opponents using Slavs as cannon fodder, they are winning, taking lands from the USA, EU, and NATO. Who's the loser?
In the list of quite disgracefully stupid comments you've made in this thread, this really stands out.
Drawn into a war...
Taking land from the EU, NATO and USA.
Is this what the tankie Russia fanboys are telling themselves is happening here?
Intrigued as to where you're getting info about this going the USAs way?
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And here we go again.
The West finally offers Ukraine the means to drive Russia out.
Medvedev starts blustering about threats to Russia's existence and nuclear war.
There is no threat to Russia's existence. Leave Ukraine and the fighting stops. It's very simple. Russia carries on existing.
He talks b*llocks bu the way, saying no nuclear armed country has ever lost a major war.
Russia and America were both driven out of Afghanistan. America badly lost in Vietnam.
All bluff and blusterq and factual bullshit, just as the Kremlin regularly does. I expect Xi is on the phone telling them to wind their necks in or else.
Whilst I generally agree BST, it’s not Medvedev we have to worry about. It’s Putin. He himself has said a world without Russia is not worth living in. Add to that his suspected ailing health, and his “rat in the corner” upbringing means some caution is advisable. Think about the increase in firepower Ukraine has being given since they were invaded. First it was hand held anti tank rockets, then armoured vehicles, then air defence systems and recently guided multi missile launchers. With tanks on the horizon, it does not take a rocket scientist to see where the “ fight fire with fire” escalation is going. If Russian troops were pushed right out of Ukraine, do we think Zelensky would end it there? Or would he use his new found land army of Western weapons to strike Russian soil? Because if he did, then all bets are off.
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And here we go again.
The West finally offers Ukraine the means to drive Russia out.
Medvedev starts blustering about threats to Russia's existence and nuclear war.
There is no threat to Russia's existence. Leave Ukraine and the fighting stops. It's very simple. Russia carries on existing.
He talks b*llocks bu the way, saying no nuclear armed country has ever lost a major war.
Russia and America were both driven out of Afghanistan. America badly lost in Vietnam.
All bluff and blusterq and factual bullshit, just as the Kremlin regularly does. I expect Xi is on the phone telling them to wind their necks in or else.
Whilst I generally agree BST, it’s not Medvedev we have to worry about. It’s Putin. He himself has said a world without Russia is not worth living in. Add to that his suspected ailing health, and his “rat in the corner” upbringing means some caution is advisable. Think about the increase in firepower Ukraine has being given since they were invaded. First it was hand held anti tank rockets, then armoured vehicles, then air defence systems and recently guided multi missile launchers. With tanks on the horizon, it does not take a rocket scientist to see where the “ fight fire with fire” escalation is going. If Russian troops were pushed right out of Ukraine, do we think Zelensky would end it there? Or would he use his new found land army of Western weapons to strike Russian soil? Because if he did, then all bets are off.
NR first of all I don't think Zelensky would even think of attacking Russia and lose all moral high ground
Second, if he did I fully expect NATO and the West to stop all resupply and then he has nothing
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Precisely DU.
Zelensky would gain nothing and lose everything if a Ukrainian toe went over the border. This is entirely about forcing an imperialist aggressor out. There is precisely zero threat to Mother Russia. Only to Putin's pride.
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Precisely DU.
Zelensky would gain nothing and lose everything if a Ukrainian toe went over the border. This is entirely about forcing an imperialist aggressor out. There is precisely zero threat to Mother Russia. Only to Putin's pride.
You seriously think the US would be totally cool with the zero threat of having Mexico with Chinese missiles, tanks, rockets, mercenaries, as part of the Chinese military alliance, having broken all trade with the USA, shooting ethnic USAnian civilians etc etc. Half a million of its troops camped out on the US border. Really? No need to ask as you effectively just said that. Sweet naive man.
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Precisely DU.
Zelensky would gain nothing and lose everything if a Ukrainian toe went over the border. This is entirely about forcing an imperialist aggressor out. There is precisely zero threat to Mother Russia. Only to Putin's pride.
And of course any toe over the line would bar the Ukraine from joining Nato for maybe ever, the more countries that joining NATO would reduce the threat of member countries getting stuck into each other including the US.
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BRR would you rather live in USA or Russia?
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Precisely DU.
Zelensky would gain nothing and lose everything if a Ukrainian toe went over the border. This is entirely about forcing an imperialist aggressor out. There is precisely zero threat to Mother Russia. Only to Putin's pride.
You seriously think the US would be totally cool with the zero threat of having Mexico with Chinese missiles, tanks, rockets, mercenaries, as part of the Chinese military alliance, having broken all trade with the USA, shooting ethnic USAnian civilians etc etc. Half a million of its troops camped out on the US border. Really? No need to ask as you effectively just said that. Sweet naive man.
As stupid, intellectually bone idle comparisons go, this takes the biscuit.
Your mind seems to operate in a mode of "Let's ignore what is actually happening, and instead say do whataboutery on a ridiculous hypothetical."
There is no threat to Russia as a state in this war.
There IS a threat to Russia as the Great Power that Putin wants Russia to be.
Your hypothetical could never come about for numerous reasons, not least that the USA IS a Great Power, and one that Mexico WANTS to have close relations with because it benefits them.
Russia ISN'T a Great Power. It wants to play at being by brutally bullying those around it. Which is why Ukraine needs and wants protection.
The fact that I have to spell this out to you shows how addled your Kremlin fanboy head is.
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Precisely DU.
Zelensky would gain nothing and lose everything if a Ukrainian toe went over the border. This is entirely about forcing an imperialist aggressor out. There is precisely zero threat to Mother Russia. Only to Putin's pride.
You seriously think the US would be totally cool with the zero threat of having Mexico with Chinese missiles, tanks, rockets, mercenaries, as part of the Chinese military alliance, having broken all trade with the USA, shooting ethnic USAnian civilians etc etc. Half a million of its troops camped out on the US border. Really? No need to ask as you effectively just said that. Sweet naive man.
Err but that's exactly what Putin is going to get by moving Russia's border westward? And what he has achieved on the northern border. We want to protest against NATO by going closer to them - and you call other people naive!!!
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And here we go again.
The West finally offers Ukraine the means to drive Russia out.
Medvedev starts blustering about threats to Russia's existence and nuclear war.
There is no threat to Russia's existence. Leave Ukraine and the fighting stops. It's very simple. Russia carries on existing.
He talks b*llocks bu the way, saying no nuclear armed country has ever lost a major war.
Russia and America were both driven out of Afghanistan. America badly lost in Vietnam.
All bluff and blusterq and factual bullshit, just as the Kremlin regularly does. I expect Xi is on the phone telling them to wind their necks in or else.
Whilst I generally agree BST, it’s not Medvedev we have to worry about. It’s Putin. He himself has said a world without Russia is not worth living in. Add to that his suspected ailing health, and his “rat in the corner” upbringing means some caution is advisable. Think about the increase in firepower Ukraine has being given since they were invaded. First it was hand held anti tank rockets, then armoured vehicles, then air defence systems and recently guided multi missile launchers. With tanks on the horizon, it does not take a rocket scientist to see where the “ fight fire with fire” escalation is going. If Russian troops were pushed right out of Ukraine, do we think Zelensky would end it there? Or would he use his new found land army of Western weapons to strike Russian soil? Because if he did, then all bets are off.
You - as much as anyone on here (aplogies Dutch) - know that conducting a defensive operation is totally different to conducting an offensive one. No way is Zelensky going over the border - because he doesn't, & wont, have the supplies or logistic capability to do it. A tank is only as useful as the fuel tanker that's following it.
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9 European nations have promised Ukraine more support after meeting on Thursday in Estonia.
UK - 600 Brimstone missiles.
Denmark - 19 French made Caesar self propelled howitzer cannons.
Estonia - howitzers, ammunition, support vehicles & anti-tank grenade launchers.
Latvia - Stinger air-defence systems, two helicopters & drones.
Lithuania - anti-air craft guns & two helicopters.
Poland - S60 anti-aircraft guns with 70,000 pieces of ammunition.
Czech Republic - produce further large calibre ammunition, howitzers & APC’s.
Once Germany sends (& it will) its Leopard tanks to Ukraine the Russians will be pushed out of Ukraine & Putin will ‘disappear’.
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I read somewhere Poland wants to give them F-16’s, the soviet era MIGS won’t stand a chance if they do
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And here we go again.
The West finally offers Ukraine the means to drive Russia out.
Medvedev starts blustering about threats to Russia's existence and nuclear war.
There is no threat to Russia's existence. Leave Ukraine and the fighting stops. It's very simple. Russia carries on existing.
He talks b*llocks bu the way, saying no nuclear armed country has ever lost a major war.
Russia and America were both driven out of Afghanistan. America badly lost in Vietnam.
All bluff and blusterq and factual bullshit, just as the Kremlin regularly does. I expect Xi is on the phone telling them to wind their necks in or else.
Whilst I generally agree BST, it’s not Medvedev we have to worry about. It’s Putin. He himself has said a world without Russia is not worth living in. Add to that his suspected ailing health, and his “rat in the corner” upbringing means some caution is advisable. Think about the increase in firepower Ukraine has being given since they were invaded. First it was hand held anti tank rockets, then armoured vehicles, then air defence systems and recently guided multi missile launchers. With tanks on the horizon, it does not take a rocket scientist to see where the “ fight fire with fire” escalation is going. If Russian troops were pushed right out of Ukraine, do we think Zelensky would end it there? Or would he use his new found land army of Western weapons to strike Russian soil? Because if he did, then all bets are off.
NR first of all I don't think Zelensky would even think of attacking Russia and lose all moral high ground
Second, if he did I fully expect NATO and the West to stop all resupply and then he has nothing
Here’s the thing though, to suppress Russian troops beyond Ukraine’s borders would involve attacks over the border. And to be honest, there have already been attacks behind enemy lines so to speak .
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NR I was referring to a ground offensive attack with the aim of taking some Russian territory, not strikes against military airbases or critical supply bridges which can be seen as a measure taken for defensive reasons
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I think it IS very, very important that there are no strikes on Russian territory using NATO-provided weapons. To me, that would cross a very serious line. Russian forces on the territory of another country are fair game for attack by NATO-provided weapons, whatever blustering b*llocks comes piping out of the Kremlin. Soviet soldiers were killed by NATO-provided weapons in Afghanistan. Just as Americans were killed by Russian-provided weapons in Vietnam. But using NATO weapons to attack Russian territory would be a massive escalation. I'm guessing the NATO Government's have said to Zelensky, "You even think of doing that and you are on your own pal."
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I think it IS very, very important that there are no strikes on Russian territory using NATO-provided weapons. To me, that would cross a very serious line. Russian forces on the territory of another country are fair game for attack by NATO-provided weapons, whatever blustering b*llocks comes piping out of the Kremlin. Soviet soldiers were killed by NATO-provided weapons in Afghanistan. Just as Americans were killed by Russian-provided weapons in Vietnam. But using NATO weapons to attack Russian territory would be a massive escalation. I'm guessing the NATO Government's have said to Zelensky, "You even think of doing that and you are on your own pal."
Completely agree with that BST
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NR I was referring to a ground offensive attack with the aim of taking some Russian territory, not strikes against military airbases or critical supply bridges which can be seen as a measure taken for defensive reasons
Ok , let’s wait and see what happens when British as90 are bombarding Russian logistics over the border on a regular basis.
There will be a tipping point in future when western weapons will overcome anything conventional Russia respond with. Collectively NATO can bring a lot more to bear than Russia. It’s a simple numbers game. Providing enough Ukrainians troops can survive.
At that point Putin will be cornered. On the verge of actual military defeat. Pushed back into his own land. A wounded animal. Pounded by western weaponry.
This will happen.
And if he is still alive and in power, then at this point, we should all get very concerned.
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BRR would you rather live in USA or Russia?
Neither.
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Precisely DU.
Zelensky would gain nothing and lose everything if a Ukrainian toe went over the border. This is entirely about forcing an imperialist aggressor out. There is precisely zero threat to Mother Russia. Only to Putin's pride.
You seriously think the US would be totally cool with the zero threat of having Mexico with Chinese missiles, tanks, rockets, mercenaries, as part of the Chinese military alliance, having broken all trade with the USA, shooting ethnic USAnian civilians etc etc. Half a million of its troops camped out on the US border. Really? No need to ask as you effectively just said that. Sweet naive man.
As stupid, intellectually bone idle comparisons go, this takes the biscuit.
Your mind seems to operate in a mode of "Let's ignore what is actually happening, and instead say do whataboutery on a ridiculous hypothetical."
There is no threat to Russia as a state in this war.
There IS a threat to Russia as the Great Power that Putin wants Russia to be.
Your hypothetical could never come about for numerous reasons, not least that the USA IS a Great Power, and one that Mexico WANTS to have close relations with because it benefits them.
Russia ISN'T a Great Power. It wants to play at being by brutally bullying those around it. Which is why Ukraine needs and wants protection.
The fact that I have to spell this out to you shows how addled your Kremlin fanboy head is.
For one who rigidly sticks to one perspective and garners all he can in every way with bizarre similies - including many times from WW2, you are 'avin a hypocritical laff. Not to mention rarely replying to questions and then whining about others not answering his particular points.
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Precisely DU.
Zelensky would gain nothing and lose everything if a Ukrainian toe went over the border. This is entirely about forcing an imperialist aggressor out. There is precisely zero threat to Mother Russia. Only to Putin's pride.
You seriously think the US would be totally cool with the zero threat of having Mexico with Chinese missiles, tanks, rockets, mercenaries, as part of the Chinese military alliance, having broken all trade with the USA, shooting ethnic USAnian civilians etc etc. Half a million of its troops camped out on the US border. Really? No need to ask as you effectively just said that. Sweet naive man.
Err but that's exactly what Putin is going to get by moving Russia's border westward? And what he has achieved on the northern border. We want to protest against NATO by going closer to them - and you call other people naive!!!
Duh - taking Ukraine keeps NATO further from many other parts of Russia, and lets NATO - the US and it's many ass lickers - know there is a limit to its attempts at geopolitical expansionism.
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I haven't compared this war to the detail of WWII action or political situation.
I have noted, correctly, that this is the biggest and most destructive war in Europe since WWII.
Regarding answering your questions, I will not get dragged into false equivalences between an aggressive, invading force with a history of terrorising urban areas, launching indiscriminate missiles at civilian areas hundreds of miles from a war front; and a force defending its own land against an invasion inevitably causing damage and casualties on its own land at the battlefront itself.
The fact that YOU try to draw equivalence between those two days everything about your take. I'm not engaging with you on that, because frankly it disgusts me.
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And once again. No NATO boot will ever step an inch onto Russian territory while Russia has 7000 nukes.
The fact that you repeat this see-through excuse for Russian aggression is beneath contempt.
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9 European nations have promised Ukraine more support after meeting on Thursday in Estonia.
UK - 600 Brimstone missiles.
Denmark - 19 French made Caesar self propelled howitzer cannons.
Estonia - howitzers, ammunition, support vehicles & anti-tank grenade launchers.
Latvia - Stinger air-defence systems, two helicopters & drones.
Lithuania - anti-air craft guns & two helicopters.
Poland - S60 anti-aircraft guns with 70,000 pieces of ammunition.
Czech Republic - produce further large calibre ammunition, howitzers & APC’s.
Once Germany sends (& it will) its Leopard tanks to Ukraine the Russians will be pushed out of Ukraine & Putin will ‘disappear’.
That is not going to make one jot of a difference to the outcome.
Apart from the numbers there being barely significant, Ukraine is increasingly looking like Steptoandsonia with a hotpotch of mainly cast off equipment, with troops being barely trained in their use, where logistic nightmares of maintenance and co-ordination create a situation where these gifts/loans will just as likely set them back as give any benefit.
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I read somewhere Poland wants to give them F-16’s, the soviet era MIGS won’t stand a chance if they do
The problem is first training, second maintenance and logistics, third that Russia has a superior air defence, and note Ukraine's is broken. F-16s will barely be able to get near enough to any front line.
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NR I was referring to a ground offensive attack with the aim of taking some Russian territory, not strikes against military airbases or critical supply bridges which can be seen as a measure taken for defensive reasons
Ok , let’s wait and see what happens when British as90 are bombarding Russian logistics over the border on a regular basis.
There will be a tipping point in future when western weapons will overcome anything conventional Russia respond with. Collectively NATO can bring a lot more to bear than Russia. It’s a simple numbers game. Providing enough Ukrainians troops can survive.
At that point Putin will be cornered. On the verge of actual military defeat. Pushed back into his own land. A wounded animal. Pounded by western weaponry.
This will happen.
And if he is still alive and in power, then at this point, we should all get very concerned.
Theoretically that could happen. To get there, NATO countries would need to weaken their own forces below their effectiveness. They would also need to increase production of so many things that is practically impossible in less than three years.
The current loans and gifts of aid are not keeping up with Ukraine losses, eg the artillery shells aren't enough to keep up even the 1/7 firepower ratio there. The promised increased production will take years to get to the level of resupplying - the US said that. NATO can't produce enough.
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9 European nations have promised Ukraine more support after meeting on Thursday in Estonia.
UK - 600 Brimstone missiles.
Denmark - 19 French made Caesar self propelled howitzer cannons.
Estonia - howitzers, ammunition, support vehicles &amp; anti-tank grenade launchers.
Latvia - Stinger air-defence systems, two helicopters &amp; drones.
Lithuania - anti-air craft guns &amp; two helicopters.
Poland - S60 anti-aircraft guns with 70,000 pieces of ammunition.
Czech Republic - produce further large calibre ammunition, howitzers &amp; APC’s.
Once Germany sends (&amp; it will) its Leopard tanks to Ukraine the Russians will be pushed out of Ukraine &amp; Putin will ‘disappear’.
That is not going to make one jot of a difference to the outcome.
Apart from the numbers there being barely significant, Ukraine is increasingly looking like Steptoandsonia with a hotpotch of mainly cast off equipment, with troops being barely trained in their use, where logistic nightmares of maintenance and co-ordination create a situation where these gifts/loans will just as likely set them back as give any benefit.
I'm beginning to think you actually do believe this.
Jesus wept.
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9 European nations have promised Ukraine more support after meeting on Thursday in Estonia.
UK - 600 Brimstone missiles.
Denmark - 19 French made Caesar self propelled howitzer cannons.
Estonia - howitzers, ammunition, support vehicles &amp; anti-tank grenade launchers.
Latvia - Stinger air-defence systems, two helicopters &amp; drones.
Lithuania - anti-air craft guns &amp; two helicopters.
Poland - S60 anti-aircraft guns with 70,000 pieces of ammunition.
Czech Republic - produce further large calibre ammunition, howitzers &amp; APC’s.
Once Germany sends (&amp; it will) its Leopard tanks to Ukraine the Russians will be pushed out of Ukraine &amp; Putin will ‘disappear’.
That is not going to make one jot of a difference to the outcome.
Apart from the numbers there being barely significant, Ukraine is increasingly looking like Steptoandsonia with a hotpotch of mainly cast off equipment, with troops being barely trained in their use, where logistic nightmares of maintenance and co-ordination create a situation where these gifts/loans will just as likely set them back as give any benefit.
I'm beginning to think you actually do believe this.
Jesus wept.
As long as Ukraine has Western allies, there is no possible scenario in which Russian troops are better equipped.
Russians are historically poorly equipped and just throw bodies at it.
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NR I was referring to a ground offensive attack with the aim of taking some Russian territory, not strikes against military airbases or critical supply bridges which can be seen as a measure taken for defensive reasons
Ok , let’s wait and see what happens when British as90 are bombarding Russian logistics over the border on a regular basis.
There will be a tipping point in future when western weapons will overcome anything conventional Russia respond with. Collectively NATO can bring a lot more to bear than Russia. It’s a simple numbers game. Providing enough Ukrainians troops can survive.
At that point Putin will be cornered. On the verge of actual military defeat. Pushed back into his own land. A wounded animal. Pounded by western weaponry.
This will happen.
And if he is still alive and in power, then at this point, we should all get very concerned.
Theoretically that could happen. To get there, NATO countries would need to weaken their own forces below their effectiveness. They would also need to increase production of so many things that is practically impossible in less than three years.
The current loans and gifts of aid are not keeping up with Ukraine losses, eg the artillery shells aren't enough to keep up even the 1/7 firepower ratio there. The promised increased production will take years to get to the level of resupplying - the US said that. NATO can't produce enough.
That's not true as I posted at the time. The US can easily supply the munitions but it would take years to re-supply the US reserve stocks at the current rate - which is why they agreeded $ billions extra to speed up production at the end of last year.
If you are going to post total rubbish - you had best check it first.
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NR I was referring to a ground offensive attack with the aim of taking some Russian territory, not strikes against military airbases or critical supply bridges which can be seen as a measure taken for defensive reasons
Ok , let’s wait and see what happens when British as90 are bombarding Russian logistics over the border on a regular basis.
There will be a tipping point in future when western weapons will overcome anything conventional Russia respond with. Collectively NATO can bring a lot more to bear than Russia. It’s a simple numbers game. Providing enough Ukrainians troops can survive.
At that point Putin will be cornered. On the verge of actual military defeat. Pushed back into his own land. A wounded animal. Pounded by western weaponry.
This will happen.
And if he is still alive and in power, then at this point, we should all get very concerned.
NR, I think that has been covered very well by BST's post below mine that I agreed with. Apologies that my initial reply was rapid and not detailed enough. I would be fairly sure that donor nations and NATO will be insisting that none of the weapons supplied by those donor nations be used on Russian soil, otherwise the flow of resupply will stop. Ukraine's own limited but non-zero capability to launch minor attacks into Russia is their own decision and IMHO as long as it can be seen as a direct measure to reduce Russia's military own operations in Ukraine (as opposed to hitting hospitals, schools, energy infrastructure, civilian populations etc) there will not be many calls for them to stop.
Your general arguments about where this might lead in terms of escalation have been there from the moment Putin ordered the attack, and as with Crimea, if he had been rapidly successful IMHO he would have kept on looking further west, probably Transnistria next.
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Wouldn't it make sense for those countries with the German built tank to agree to send them so as to simplify logistics and the UK send other arms?
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DU.
I don't think there's any doubt that Putin would have rolled his tanks into Transnistria if Ukraine had been left defenceless. The question is, what would he have done next.
I think he'd have played precisely the Ukraine technique on the Baltics.
Encourage fighting by ethnic Russians.
Supports them with arms and deniable Spetsnatz forces. And if NATO didn't hold the line there, go fully in and invade.
The wilful naivety of those who think Putin would have stopped when he'd brought Ukraine to heel would be almost touching if it wasn't so dangerous.
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Exactly BST, probably starting with Lithuania and playing the issue of access to
Kaliningrad
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NR I was referring to a ground offensive attack with the aim of taking some Russian territory, not strikes against military airbases or critical supply bridges which can be seen as a measure taken for defensive reasons
Ok , let’s wait and see what happens when British as90 are bombarding Russian logistics over the border on a regular basis.
There will be a tipping point in future when western weapons will overcome anything conventional Russia respond with. Collectively NATO can bring a lot more to bear than Russia. It’s a simple numbers game. Providing enough Ukrainians troops can survive.
At that point Putin will be cornered. On the verge of actual military defeat. Pushed back into his own land. A wounded animal. Pounded by western weaponry.
This will happen.
And if he is still alive and in power, then at this point, we should all get very concerned.
Theoretically that could happen. To get there, NATO countries would need to weaken their own forces below their effectiveness. They would also need to increase production of so many things that is practically impossible in less than three years.
The current loans and gifts of aid are not keeping up with Ukraine losses, eg the artillery shells aren't enough to keep up even the 1/7 firepower ratio there. The promised increased production will take years to get to the level of resupplying - the US said that. NATO can't produce enough.
That's not true as I posted at the time. The US can easily supply the munitions but it would take years to re-supply the US reserve stocks at the current rate - which is why they agreeded $ billions extra to speed up production at the end of last year.
If you are going to post total rubbish - you had best check it first.
The speeding up will take a long time, the article said three years. The US can't risk sending much of its reserves - eg Taiwan.
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So far it's fairly clear that it's Ukraine throwing bodies at this. Russia has lost a lot, Ukraine more. Russia has vastly superior firepower and armour, that will tell in terms of troop losses. Ukraine losses in Bahkmut are very high, as reported by many sources on both sides.
The hotchpotch of aid as I said doesn't lend itself well to logistics of ammunition and repairs, made worse by largely having to go to Poland for fixing.
I think Ukraine has spoken about mobilising an extra 100k, Russia is likely to issue another round of mobilisation, possibly 500k.
Currently Russia is advancing on at least 40‰ of the frontline, Ukraine advancing nowhere. How come?
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"Currently Russia is advancing on at least 90‰ of the frontline."
You are truly living on another planet.
Russia (more specifically, Wagner) has made very limited advances around Bakhmut. Everywhere else, the front line is stable throughout the winter, after huge advances by the Ukrainian forces in the Kharkiv, Luhansk and Kherson regions throughout the autumn.
Where on earth do you get your information from? Actually, no need to answer that.
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Exactly BST, probably starting with Lithuania and playing the issue of access to
Kaliningrad
Most likely.
Here’s an article from before the invasion
https://www.npr.org/2021/12/17/1065111430/russia-demands-ukraine-and-other-ex-soviet-republics-be-barred-from-joining-nato
Perhaps countries want to seek security because the horrors of soviet rule are still in living memory for them. Rather than NATO being some sort of imperialist force.
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This piece has got to the point of Russian anger at NATO expansion.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/13/putin-russia-war-ukraine-rhetoric-history/
It's nothing to do with Russia worrying about NATO invading Russia.
The anger is because Russia knows that once NATO has embraced a country, Russia can no longer threaten to invade them.
It's nothing to do with Russia being existentially threatened. It's about them having their nasty f**king balls cut off.
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Every time they see more advanced weapons being delivered, they go on a rant and chuck more bombs at it, they are worried
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Lets see if they carry out their threats to Germany, NATO on standby
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Every time they see more advanced weapons being delivered, they go on a rant and chuck more bombs at it, they are worried
Yep I heard that as an explanation of the missile attacks yesterday by all the mainstream news services. However, Russia does these attacks every week or so, has done for some time, so no change there. But sure, go with the childlike story if it helps you.
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Lets see if they carry out their threats to Germany, NATO on standby
The point they made was that they feel it legitimises attacks on Germany. To think they are going to do that is probably daft. It also emphasises that Germany is an enemy, good for spinning things for the home audience.
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This piece has got to the point of Russian anger at NATO expansion.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/03/13/putin-russia-war-ukraine-rhetoric-history/
It's nothing to do with Russia worrying about NATO invading Russia.
The anger is because Russia knows that once NATO has embraced a country, Russia can no longer threaten to invade them.
It's nothing to do with Russia being existentially threatened. It's about them having their nasty f**king balls cut off.
So reactionary.
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Every time they see more advanced weapons being delivered, they go on a rant and chuck more bombs at it, they are worried
Yep I heard that as an explanation of the missile attacks yesterday by all the mainstream news services. However, Russia does these attacks every week or so, has done for some time, so no change there. But sure, go with the childlike story if it helps you.
They do it in reaction to countries delivering weapons, they spin as esculating the war, they know full well they could de esculate in a second by going home within their own borders, they rant like a spoiled child blaming everyone else for the War when they are the only ones to blame, Putin will be dead by the end of this year is my opinion
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I so much hope you're right on that, Filo.
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Every time they see more advanced weapons being delivered, they go on a rant and chuck more bombs at it, they are worried
Yep I heard that as an explanation of the missile attacks yesterday by all the mainstream news services. However, Russia does these attacks every week or so, has done for some time, so no change there. But sure, go with the childlike story if it helps you.
They do it in reaction to countries delivering weapons, they spin as esculating the war, they know full well they could de esculate in a second by going home within their own borders, they rant like a spoiled child blaming everyone else for the War when they are the only ones to blame, Putin will be dead by the end of this year is my opinion
Of course Russia threaten the west and Ukraine as the west pours more and more resources into the war. It's talk. That doesn't mean the regular missile and drone attacks on military targets are related to that. Possibly occasionally the volume of attacks are increased, like when the Crimea Bridge was attacked.
The BBC and western news spin the line that the missile attacks are related to the tanks so that the western populations think that Russia is upset over the tanks, scared even. The deliveries, when they finally arrive, won't change much at all, the numbers are far too low, plus there aren't Ukraines who will be fully trained in their use.
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It's simple. Go home.
BobG
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The us are now going to provide long range missiles capable of hitting targets 150km away.
I hope Ukraine can keep these from landing inside Russia.
It just keeps escalating.
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77th Brigade Tobias Elwood calls for the UK to get directly involved in the conflict and face up Russia.
They actually want WW3 don't they
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The end of this month will be very telling. If Russia are planning a massive offensive with half a million troops ( and I use the term troops loosely) and it fails as I suspect it will, then Putin is backed into the proverbial corner.
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The end of this month will be very telling. If Russia are planning a massive offensive with half a million troops ( and I use the term troops loosely) and it fails as I suspect it will, then Putin is backed into the proverbial corner.
Don't worry about Putin, NR. If he fails, he'll be removed.
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It’s the bit between failure and removal that worries me.
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It’s the bit between failure and removal that worries me.
If you're talking about nukes, NR, I don't think his generals would obey him in the implementation of it all. They've all got families, and they know that NATO countries have all got their nukes pointed at Russia right now.
Russia would be obliterated in less than 30 seconds. Putin might be a tyrant, but he's not stupid, and he's also one of the richest men in the world, who loves his lavish lifestyle.
He won't commit suicide.
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It’s the bit between failure and removal that worries me.
If he succeeds he will control much of the world's food supplies and a good proportion of natural resources. That should worry you more.
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The us are now going to provide long range missiles capable of hitting targets 150km away.
I hope Ukraine can keep these from landing inside Russia.
It just keeps escalating.
Thing is, like much of the promised aid (loans) from the US, it will be a while before it arrives, probs 9 months from US reports I read.
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The end of this month will be very telling. If Russia are planning a massive offensive with half a million troops ( and I use the term troops loosely) and it fails as I suspect it will, then Putin is backed into the proverbial corner.
Unless Ukraine has something extra special in reserve, a Russian failure is looking progressively less likely. There appears to be an injection of about 30k Russians in the Creminia area which has pushed the Ukraine's back. They had already seemed to stop their offensive there by moving some of their bettet battalions down to Uglidar on the southern Donbas front. Nowhere is Ukraine making any headway, and Russia is inching forwards, tho Ukraine has by all accounts - ie not just Russia - taken very heavy casualties over recent times.
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The end of this month will be very telling. If Russia are planning a massive offensive with half a million troops ( and I use the term troops loosely) and it fails as I suspect it will, then Putin is backed into the proverbial corner.
Unless Ukraine has something extra special in reserve, a Russian failure is looking progressively less likely. There appears to be an injection of about 30k Russians in the Creminia area which has pushed the Ukraine's back. They had already seemed to stop their offensive there by moving some of their bettet battalions down to Uglidar on the southern Donbas front. Nowhere is Ukraine making any headway, and Russia is inching forwards, tho Ukraine has by all accounts - ie not just Russia - taken very heavy casualties over recent times.
30k conscripts who have no idea why they are invading another country against people fighting for their and their families lives. I've read this book before.
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The end of this month will be very telling. If Russia are planning a massive offensive with half a million troops ( and I use the term troops loosely) and it fails as I suspect it will, then Putin is backed into the proverbial corner.
Unless Ukraine has something extra special in reserve, a Russian failure is looking progressively less likely. There appears to be an injection of about 30k Russians in the Creminia area which has pushed the Ukraine's back. They had already seemed to stop their offensive there by moving some of their bettet battalions down to Uglidar on the southern Donbas front. Nowhere is Ukraine making any headway, and Russia is inching forwards, tho Ukraine has by all accounts - ie not just Russia - taken very heavy casualties over recent times.
30k conscripts who have no idea why they are invading another country against people fighting for their and their families lives. I've read this book before.
That's a weird conclusion, but then you are confined to gross misinformation from the likes of the BBC, and the Guardian - or maybe you get it from the Sun these days? Or some comic book? Or from Zelensky, or his chumly chum Johnson?
Ad a minimum in terms of training and experience, as with all the recent conscripts apart from some of the prisoners with Wagner, it's 30k troops who've already done military service and had another 3 to 6 months training, and quite probs they're in anongst battle trained troops anyway, or maybe it is just battle trained troops who'd been resting?
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64593488
Zelensky claims Russian missiles flew over Romanian (NATO country) airspace. Romania then denies this. Zelensky persists in insisting they did. Maybe he is right. Maybe Romania isn't that bothered and doesn't want to push towards what would be a greater NATO involvement (I doubt that is true). Or maybe Zelensky is desperate and doesn't care about how this all can escalate from fake claims - remember the Uke air defence missile drama egged on as a Russian attack as a tractor was struck in Poland.
Whilst he may or may not be someone who uses cocaine, he displays all the insanity of a cocaine addict as anyone who knows people that damaged would know. NATO members will be aware of his character, and will be partly why they are loathe to donate, sell or loan arms that can be used beyond what is "sensibly" required.
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Oh deary deary me!
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And yet again he ignores Russia latest threats & build up.
Why?
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Not ignoring anything. Well aware Russia will take what it wants, moreso as NATO pushes harder - the evidence is there to see. Oh wait, its not what the BBC are saying, must be wrong then.
And Ukraine suffers more and more in the process. Its sick, but then so obvious what the consequences are when creating and feeding a proxy war like this.
What threats are you talking about? Threats of eliminating Ukraine as a military power? That's been the case from when Johnson delivered his Beano version of a Churchilian order to "never surrender" when Ukraine was in the process of negotiation around Donbas and NATO/EU membership. Many died from that point.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-64593488
Zelensky claims Russian missiles flew over Romanian (NATO country) airspace. Romania then denies this. Zelensky persists in insisting they did. Maybe he is right. Maybe Romania isn't that bothered and doesn't want to push towards what would be a greater NATO involvement (I doubt that is true). Or maybe Zelensky is desperate and doesn't care about how this all can escalate from fake claims - remember the Uke air defence missile drama egged on as a Russian attack as a tractor was struck in Poland.
Whilst he may or may not be someone who uses cocaine, he displays all the insanity of a cocaine addict as anyone who knows people that damaged would know. NATO members will be aware of his character, and will be partly why they are loathe to donate, sell or loan arms that can be used beyond what is "sensibly" required.
Bristol there must be at least a dozen NATO monitoring devices each capable of tracking 1,000 items the size of a Tenis ball in the air over the Ukraine at any time, the west is fully aware of what is in the Air in the region 24/7. I would even suggest that as soon as the Russians start to fire up thei missiles the Ukraine gets a heads up, which probably explains the 90% kill rate they have v Russian rockets.
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This is superb analysis from one of the best thinker's on the Ukraine situation.
https://snyder.substack.com/p/nuclear-war?r=f9j4c&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
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Unfortunately his premise of Russia blowing up the nuke issue seems to be mistaken. From what I've seen it has been Western media that grasped onto a few mentions of it, and in that it serves to create an enemy that is threatening us. It is threatening Ukraine.
And that leads to the other angle of the fear of Russian military acting against Euro nations further west. Of course that is possible, but so far I've seen nothing suggesting that is at worst even likely. Again, blowing up the fear angle by Western nations.
The article also weighs in with Russian defeats in Ukraine where all the current evidence is of signifi ant Ukraine defeats, as well as a serious depletion of arms as we as manpower losses. The Kiev withdrawal was tactical as well as being an act of de-escalation. There are was the timing then of also initiating peace talks, at that time I believe brokered by Turkey. This was dismissed by the US who at that time saw prospects of a Russian defeat, or at least a weakening of its overall military power, and economy, which is arguably the main reason behind the US creating this war. Neither of those have transpired, at least in any significant way.
The article is very strongly based on a particular western narrative.
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The Kiev withdrawal was strategic!
Give me strength.
The Kiev offensive was the key to Putin's War. He assumed his mobile forces would walk into Kyiv pretty much uncontested, he'd decapitate the Ukraine Government and install a puppet. There's zero other explanation that stands up to the lightest scrutiny.
What Putin certainly did not want was a full scale war stretching out for two or more years, the unification of NATO response and the loss of his European gas and oil markets.
Strategic withdrawal! They got hammered on the battlefield and chased back across the border!
As for him threatening Ukraine with nuclear weapons, you really haven't read the article you are criticising have you?
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I read it completely. It starts with the premise that shapes the whole of his nuke argument. I'm not surprised you buy that. It is based on western media exaggeration and the anti Russian narrative, not based on balanced fact.
You don't know about the Turkish peace initiative? Probs not the Israeli one either - stopped for the very same reasons by the very same party seemingly for the very same self interests - the US, and its British lackie, not Ukraine.
For sure, a quick victory by taking Kiev would have saved much Russian cost and lives, Ukraine's more so. It wasn't the main effort though, that was focused on taking Donbas and the Crimea landbridge.
Russia was initially lacking in manpower to sustain the other territory it retreated from. Ukraine lost a large amount of its forces in that counterattack, Russia retreated to preserve its manpower and armour. Currently Ukraine is slowly, incrementally, retreating across practically the whole fronts. So that other premise in the nuke argument doesn't hold water either - Russia doesn't need a nuke war, nor to use tactical nukes. Most experts predict a large scale Russian advance in the next week or two. That might or might not happen, but it will almost certainly be putting a couple of hundred thousand extra troops on the battlefield, plus a lot of extra armour. Has Ukraine got reserves to counter that? We'll see.
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BRR
You continue to push the Kremlin line that Russia has broadly been achieving its strategic aims.
That is utter nonsense. There is no way on God's earth that Putin invades Ukraine on 24 February last year if he knows where he stands 12 months later. The only possible victory for him was a rapid march into Kyiv (I note your continued use of the Russian spelling - very telling) and the toppling of the Govt.
There was no possible strategic victory which outweighed the cotsts if that wasn't achievable.
Putin f**ked up on that front, because he'd surrounded himself by people too scared to tell him it would not be the cakewalk he imagined. He's now engulfed in a nightmare that makes the Soviet disaster in Afghanistan look like a kids' game. His militaey hardware and wetware have been shown to be nothing like what was feared. His economic system is in pieces. He's a pariah on the world stage, smacked down by China when he tries one of his playground threats about nukes.
And you still have him as the master strategist, leading the agenda. It's truly pitiful to watch.
Regarding the nukes, you CLEARLY didn't read the article, because you miss the fact that his entire premise is that the Western media has overblown the nuclear threat. And you clearly haven't read what he says about why the use of tactical nukes against Ukraine is very unlikely to happen, despite Putin, Lavrov and Medvedev's crude threats.
Put your keyboard away and go and have another read of it. You might learn something.
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It starts, "There is a profit motive at work here, one that Russian propagandists exploit by their references to nuclear weapons."
It's western media plugging it to nduce fear in the population so as to try to maximise support for the Yankee war. Some success there.
Kiev, Kyiv - really? I've used both. How do you spell Cardiff? Rome? You might also be interested to know both Ukraine and Russia use a different alphabet, so how does the British spelling matter? It sounds the same. Desperate stuff eh. Just about as desperate as the rest of your western media regurgitation.
Russia ALWAYS aimed to destroy the Ukraine/NATO threat, eg ultimately missiles on its border. The Ukraine army has been seriously compromised, Russia is beating them. Or maybe you can point to the contrary? Let's see what happens next.
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Russian casualty rates are reported to be four times higher than jun July last year. Around 8-900 every day.
There won’t be any Russian offensive in spring.
There won’t be many troops left.
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If Russia's strategic plan was to prevent Ukraine buddying up to NATO and having NATO weapons, this must go down as the worst conceived and conducted plan of the century to date.
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And he's succeeded in broadening the scale and scope of NATO too...... Strategic masterstroke that.
BobG
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Reading today that Wagner group are using conscriots and released prisoners in suicidal attacks. It applies both ways to be suicidal whether they attack or don't and yes BRR this in a western media report
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Reading today that Wagner group are using conscriots and released prisoners in suicidal attacks. It applies both ways to be suicidal whether they attack or don't and yes BRR this in a western media report
Also hearing that the number of “volunteers” from prison to the Wagner group is reducing as word gets back to the life expectancy of “volunteers” isn’t great
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Putin's strategy according to BRR.
Intention: Keep NATO away from Russian borders.
Fact: Ukraine could not have joined NATO because there is a clause preventing accession of nations that don't control all their territory. As Ukraine didn't control Donbas and Crimea, it could not have joined NATO in 2022.
Outcome of invasion: Finland is joining NATO, giving NATO another 1340km of border with Russia. Russian troops are daily being attacked with NATO weapons.
Conclusion: Putin is winning
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Reading today that Wagner group are using conscriots and released prisoners in suicidal attacks. It applies both ways to be suicidal whether they attack or don't and yes BRR this in a western media report
Also hearing that the number of “volunteers” from prison to the Wagner group is reducing as word gets back to the life expectancy of “volunteers” isn’t great
They have already stopped recruiting prisoners.
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Putin's strategy according to BRR.
Intention: Keep NATO away from Russian borders.
Fact: Ukraine could not have joined NATO because there is a clause preventing accession of nations that don't control all their territory. As Ukraine didn't control Donbas and Crimea, it could not have joined NATO in 2022.
Outcome of invasion: Finland is joining NATO, giving NATO another 1340km of border with Russia. Russian troops are daily being attacked with NATO weapons.
Conclusion: Putin is winning
Wasn't Ukraine trying to reclaim the Donbas prior to the Russian invasion?
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Ukraine was trying to establish control over its own land in the face of a Russian-supplied and armed separatist movement, as you well know, but ignore.
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Putin's strategy according to BRR.
Intention: Keep NATO away from Russian borders.
Fact: Ukraine could not have joined NATO because there is a clause preventing accession of nations that don't control all their territory. As Ukraine didn't control Donbas and Crimea, it could not have joined NATO in 2022.
Outcome of invasion: Finland is joining NATO, giving NATO another 1340km of border with Russia. Russian troops are daily being attacked with NATO weapons.
Conclusion: Putin is winning
Wasn't Ukraine trying to reclaim the Donbas prior to the Russian invasion?
A perfectly legitimate action trying to defend it’s own territory from aggressors
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Reading today that Wagner group are using conscriots and released prisoners in suicidal attacks. It applies both ways to be suicidal whether they attack or don't and yes BRR this in a western media report
Also hearing that the number of “volunteers” from prison to the Wagner group is reducing as word gets back to the life expectancy of “volunteers” isn’t great
They have already stopped recruiting prisoners.
Recruiting? Did they have an option?
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Ukraine was trying to establish control over its own land in the face of a Russian-supplied and armed separatist movement, as you well know, but ignore.
Don't ignore that, but you conveniently miss context. Conveniently for regurgitating a western, US narrative.
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Reading today that Wagner group are using conscriots and released prisoners in suicidal attacks. It applies both ways to be suicidal whether they attack or don't and yes BRR this in a western media report
Also hearing that the number of “volunteers” from prison to the Wagner group is reducing as word gets back to the life expectancy of “volunteers” isn’t great
They have already stopped recruiting prisoners.
Recruiting? Did they have an option?
Yes, they could have recruited more.
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The recruitment has stopped because no convicts are volunteering.
No convicts are volunteering because word has got back that Wagner is using convicts as front line cannon fodder.
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A typically Russian tactic. Well known in WW2 too. Always a great result for the men at the top. Blunt the opposition defences, and kill a whole load of alleged troublemakers. What could be better?? The prisoners who volunteered must have been idiots. What the hell else did they think they were going to be used for???
BobG
Later: or, the Russian interpretation of history doesn't include the death battalions....
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This is superb analysis from one of the best thinker's on the Ukraine situation.
https://snyder.substack.com/p/nuclear-war?r=f9j4c&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web
I've only just read the article you linked Billy. For anyone with an interest, you may not agree with some, or indeed all, of it, but it does provide much food for thought. Given the positions taken by our resident apologist, I did rather smile at this couple of lines:
"Each defeat generates stories about how Russia was not actually defeated. That is worth noting. The escalation one actually sees is narrative. It takes more and more work for Russians to explain defeat as victory. But so far they have been up to the task."
BobG
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The recruitment has stopped because no convicts are volunteering.
No convicts are volunteering because word has got back that Wagner is using convicts as front line cannon fodder.
And bashing their heads in with a sledgehammer
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The other, exceedingly interesting point I took from Billy's link is so many organisations giving us all clickbait whilst appearing to give balanced news. Whilst this list is mine step forwards the Mail, the Express, the Mirror and every tv news station except Channel 4.
BobG
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Reading today that Wagner group are using conscriots and released prisoners in suicidal attacks. It applies both ways to be suicidal whether they attack or don't and yes BRR this in a western media report
Also hearing that the number of “volunteers” from prison to the Wagner group is reducing as word gets back to the life expectancy of “volunteers” isn’t great
They have already stopped recruiting prisoners.
Recruiting? Did they have an option?
Yes, they could have recruited more.
Do you really believe the ones they "recruited" had a choice?
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I've been hearing for over a week now that Russia had started a massive attack on the eastern front. But it seems that nothing has changed, other than them throwing more bodies into their mini Passchendaele at Bakhmut. Am I missing something?
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This is superb analysis from one of the best thinker's on the Ukraine situation.
https://snyder.substack.com/p/nuclear-war?r=f9j4c&amp;utm_campaign=post&amp;utm_medium=web
I've only just read the article you linked Billy. For anyone with an interest, you may not agree with some, or indeed all, of it, but it does provide much food for thought. Given the positions taken by our resident apologist, I did rather smile at this couple of lines:
"Each defeat generates stories about how Russia was not actually defeated. That is worth noting. The escalation one actually sees is narrative. It takes more and more work for Russians to explain defeat as victory. But so far they have been up to the task."
BobG
I'm intrigued as to what general or specific point you're making over what specific incidents?
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At a guess BRR, it's points like how Putin's propaganda paints the rout in Kharkhiv as an "orderly strategic withdrawal" done as a matter of choice.
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At a guess BRR, it's points like how Putin's propaganda paints the rout in Kharkhiv as an "orderly strategic withdrawal" done as a matter of choice.
No, they were clearly outnumbered and would have been smashed if they tried to hold that ground, so they withdrew whilst it seems trying to hold onto one or two places like Izyum I think it was. Fairly quickly they were forced to withdraw from there too. The line they ultimately fell back to was supported by a few of the new troops, and latterly more have been stationed there where you can see recent gradual advancements.
To have stood and fought would have meant large scale losses, hence it was a withdrawal that did save Russian lives.
Substantial troops have reinforced all along the front, whilst the bulk are in reserve, reportedly, mainly by Western sources, for a large scale offensive. Those sources have been saying that is likely to be from the North somewhere east of Kyiv.
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So that would be from Belarus then?
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Putin too scared to fly in case he gets killed, but not too scared to send thousands of his own people to die, he’s a coward!
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You're a strange one BRR.
Russian forces being routed and fleeing the front en masse, taking huge casualties and leaving massive amounts of hardware behind is a successful, planned, strategic withdrawal.
Russia losing hundreds of men a day to inch a little way down the streets of Bakhmut is (what did you call it recently) something like "Russian advancing along the majority of the frontline"
You DO realise how disconnected from reality this makes you seem? Last autumn, even the aggressive Putin cheerleaders on Russian state TV were calling the defeats in Kharkiv and Kherson unmitigated disasters.
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So that would be from Belarus then?
Could be though that would be West of Kyiv. Probs more likely, according to Western reports, to be further east.
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You're a strange one BRR.
Russian forces being routed and fleeing the front en masse, taking huge casualties and leaving massive amounts of hardware behind is a successful, planned, strategic withdrawal.
Russia losing hundreds of men a day to inch a little way down the streets of Bakhmut is (what did you call it recently) something like "Russian advancing along the majority of the frontline"
You DO realise how disconnected from reality this makes you seem? Last autumn, even the aggressive Putin cheerleaders on Russian state TV were calling the defeats in Kharkiv and Kherson unmitigated disasters.
Strategic (your word here) following the build up of Ukraine forces and subsequent attack from them. Made the best of the situation. No idea what your point is bar being wholly based on pro Ukraine propaganda? How many tanks, how many troops did Russia lose? What were the Ukraine losses in that offensive?
Russia has lost a fair amount in advancing west in recent months. How much has Ukraine lost? Its not just Bakhmut.
Where do you get your battlefield info from?
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Here's a thought. Why not stop prefacing every post to someone who disagrees with you with "Western/Ukraine propaganda" slurs, when you have precisely NO knowledge of where I get my information from? Why don't you back up your claims, or critique other people's claims with evidence, instead of this childish "Ner, ner, Western propaganda" b*llocks. You might make something of yourself.
So. Russia hasn't advanced ANYWHERE more than a few street blocks in the past 6 months. Unless you have evidence that they have, which is being systematically suppressed by everyone else. Show us your sources.
And "Made the best of the situation". You can apply that logic to ANY rout. Dunkirk? Best of a bad job. Surrender at Stalingrad? That was a strategic surrender to prevent massacre. Best of a bad situation. The fact is that over a few short weeks in Autumn, the Russian forces were routed out of more than a third of the land area that they had taken since February. They didn't do that by choice. They did it because they could not hold the land in the face of the attacks.
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And you never, ever engage with the battlefield reality that caused those frontline collapses. They didn't happen through face to face conflict, with Ukraine taking as many losses in men and materiel as Russia. The fact you assume that's what happened shows how deeply ignorant you are of the battlefield situation.
Ukrainian forces made holding on to the land impossible for the Russians, not by head-on attacks, but by using accurate, long range West-supplued artillery to degrade the Russian supply lines. They made it impossible for Russia to hold large munitions dumps within 50km of the front, becase any that were within range of the HIMARS and the like were taken out.
And that fact hasn't changed. If Russia is stupid enough to try yet another massed attack, it will be defeated in exactly the same way; by starving it of supplies.
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Rape as a weapon.
Systemic torture of prisoners
Mass deportation of kids to Russia.
Now this.
https://twitter.com/OlenaHalushka/status/1626646636872011796?s=20
Anyone wondering why Putin has to be stopped is wilfully blind. They are f**king barbarians.
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One of the most chilling lines that John LeCarre out into George Smiley's mouth was this, about his time in Germany in the 1930s.
"I saw them burning books. I knew then it wouldn't be long before they were burning people."
This is a statement of intent that follows straight from Putin's bestial ramblings about Ukraine having no historical right to exist except as a part of Mother Russia.
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If that photo is genuine then Russia, it's leadership and its morals all need urgent overthrow. It's not shameful. It's bestial.
BobG
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Imagine we were all Russian and this thread was in Russia, BRR. And you were sticking up for the West like you do with Russia. You’d be thrown in jail. But here in the west you are free to say what you like on the matter.
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I doubt they would waste a jail cell on him, ncRover. They certainly would throw him somewhere, probably out of a sixth-floor window.
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Imagine we were all Russian and this thread was in Russia, BRR. And you were sticking up for the West like you do with Russia. You’d be thrown in jail. But here in the west you are free to say what you like on the matter.
What a bizarre argument, tho exactly what some will say. Helpful to think about this, and consider how free people are in Ukraine to speak. The ones strapped to lampposts, the ones now disappeared. And then, BSTs mention of book burning. Where do you think that's been happening?
I can only assume you are making a reasoned argument relevant to Ukraine, and appreciate that you excuse western supporting Ukraine's from book burning and strapping folks to lamposts even before the Russian invasion. Therefore you must be referring to Russian troops heading over to the UK? If not please explain.
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Rape as a weapon.
Systemic torture of prisoners
Mass deportation of kids to Russia.
Now this.
https://twitter.com/OlenaHalushka/status/1626646636872011796?s=20
Anyone wondering why Putin has to be stopped is wilfully blind. They are f**king barbarians.
So, no evidence of your propaganda BST. As I said, we have seen lots of Ukraine burning of Russian books. Go on....
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If that photo is genuine then Russia, it's leadership and its morals all need urgent overthrow. It's not shameful. It's bestial.
BobG
You've not seen the burning of Russian books then?
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Here's a thought. Why not stop prefacing every post to someone who disagrees with you with "Western/Ukraine propaganda" slurs, when you have precisely NO knowledge of where I get my information from? Why don't you back up your claims, or critique other people's claims with evidence, instead of this childish "Ner, ner, Western propaganda" b*llocks. You might make something of yourself.
So. Russia hasn't advanced ANYWHERE more than a few street blocks in the past 6 months. Unless you have evidence that they have, which is being systematically suppressed by everyone else. Show us your sources.
And "Made the best of the situation". You can apply that logic to ANY rout. Dunkirk? Best of a bad job. Surrender at Stalingrad? That was a strategic surrender to prevent massacre. Best of a bad situation. The fact is that over a few short weeks in Autumn, the Russian forces were routed out of more than a third of the land area that they had taken since February. They didn't do that by choice. They did it because they could not hold the land in the face of the attacks.
I asked you where you get your info from and you come back with that reply? Jeeez....
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BRR.
Give us the source of your claim of Ukrainian burning of Russian books.
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Yes. Please do. I've seen absolutely nothing about that. Nada.
BobG
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https://mobile.twitter.com/flamuchz/status/1627611138232840192
Daft t**ts.
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Taking 2000 ventilators to Scunthorpe again? :lol:
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Context - Ukraine has about 50% of people speaking solely or mostly Ukraine. It has 30% speaking soley or mostly Russian according to one source. Wiki says from a poll in 2005 36% spoke mainly Russian at home, with a further 22% speaking Russian and Ukrainian.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language_in_Ukraine#2001_Census
The point being Russian is a very significant language in Ukraine as a whole. However that is predominantly in the south and east - though not just the Donbas and Crimea.
Pro Ukraine NBC reporter's tweet showing book burning - or the prep of.
https://twitter.com/RichardEngel/status/1500815037589504009
De-Russification - Ukraine banning various Russian books and music at various levels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_book_ban_in_Ukraine
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/jun/20/ukraine-restricts-russian-books-and-music-in-latest-step-of-derussification
Removing Russian language books including childrens, romance, detectives.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2022/06/15/ooyj-j15.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derussification_in_Ukraine#2022
Law on stopping children of Russian speakers being taught in Russian.
https://www.fairplanet.org/editors-pick/schools-in-ukraine-scrap-russian-language-from-their-curricula/
So, not much evidence of actual burning - I have seen vids and pics of this in the Donbas 2014 onwards. But then there is a state wide poilcy of book banning and removal and dumping - which amounts to the same. Reasons given are "propaganda". On the other hand there have been Ukraine books being burnt, the reason given there is the same, propaganda - in that case mainly the Nazi Ukraine literature.
So it's a bit of both, not one sided - not that BST likes that, obviously being protective of his one side policy, in this case the Ukraine Nazi's. I'd argue that there is misinformation on both sides, and then there is an acceptance of certain narratives on both sides, some of which is well dodgy, but should those books be burnt/dumped/banned?
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One of the most chilling lines that John LeCarre out into George Smiley's mouth was this, about his time in Germany in the 1930s.
"I saw them burning books. I knew then it wouldn't be long before they were burning people."
This is a statement of intent that follows straight from Putin's bestial ramblings about Ukraine having no historical right to exist except as a part of Mother Russia.
Putin has said he will burn Ukrainian books and then Ukrainian people?
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So you've not seen the burning of Russian books then. Glad we sorted that.
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One of the most chilling lines that John LeCarre out into George Smiley's mouth was this, about his time in Germany in the 1930s.
&quot;I saw them burning books. I knew then it wouldn't be long before they were burning people.&quot;
This is a statement of intent that follows straight from Putin's bestial ramblings about Ukraine having no historical right to exist except as a part of Mother Russia.
Putin has said he will burn Ukrainian books and then Ukrainian people?
Putins words are for his heavily censored people’s consumption
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So you've not seen the burning of Russian books then. Glad we sorted that.
That's not what I said. Though sadly it seems we sorted out that you are happy to turn a blind eye to state censorship and marginalising chosen people based on race. I can see why you're a Zelensky fan.
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I clearly misunderstood you when you said "You've not seen the burning of Russian books then?" as meaning that YOU had. But then you regularly say things in this thread that I don't understand.
For the record, I don't agree with suppressing any reasonable culture. But you are making a mistake in equating the actions on both sides, as you regularly do.
Ukraine brought in the laws to suppress the Russian language after its sovereign territory was invaded by Russia.
Russian forces, by clearly out a Ukrainian library are trying to suppress the culture of a state they have invaded.
The two are not remotely equal.
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Superb piece here in the FT on how Putin threw himself into this nightmare.
https://www.ft.com/content/80002564-33e8-48fb-b734-44810afb7a49
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I clearly misunderstood you when you said "You've not seen the burning of Russian books then?" as meaning that YOU had. But then you regularly say things in this thread that I don't understand.
For the record, I don't agree with suppressing any reasonable culture. But you are making a mistake in equating the actions on both sides, as you regularly do.
Ukraine brought in the laws to suppress the Russian language after its sovereign territory was invaded by Russia.
Russian forces, by clearly out a Ukrainian library are trying to suppress the culture of a state they have invaded.
The two are not remotely equal.
Except Ukraine started marginalising Russian speakers before the invasion. Eg Russian not allowed in Donbas schools. Russian books removed.
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Go on. When did that happen?
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10k lefties turned up in Germany to protest about arming Ukraine today
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10k lefties turned up in Germany to protest about arming Ukraine today
Seeing as most people would regard Putin and his generals as being ultra-fascists, that's a strange one.
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10k lefties turned up in Germany to protest about arming Ukraine today
They should be protesting in moscow then bp
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The very far left and the far right are indistinguishable.
It's not really that big a deal is it? 13,000 people in a demo, in a country of 80 million.
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Very very Dutch protest
https://twitter.com/MollyQuell/status/1629486292076470272?s=20
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Very very Dutch protest
https://twitter.com/MollyQuell/status/1629486292076470272?s=20 (https://twitter.com/MollyQuell/status/1629486292076470272?s=20)
Brilliant, Dutch :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Very very Dutch protest
https://twitter.com/MollyQuell/status/1629486292076470272?s=20
That's superb.
The best church chimes I've ever heard were in The Hague. Seemed to go on for hours.
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Dismembering russia in an elegant style
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At the rally Putin appeared at last Friday in a sports stadium attended by state employees who had been given the day off on the understanding that they would attend, a large number left the stadium before Putin took to the stage.
They could have just popped out for a hot dog.
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At the rally Putin appeared at last Friday in a sports stadium attended by state employees who had been given the day off on the understanding that they would attend, a large number left the stadium before Putin took to the stage.
They could have just popped out for a hot dog.
A Sodexo hot dog?
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Deliberate targeting of civilians in Donetsk as has been going on since 2014.
At the end of the vid there is an example of Ukraine taking that one step further, deliberate shelling of an ambulance that was rescuing civilians after a previous shelling.
https://youtu.be/iAcPP2WMlX0
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Deliberate targeting of civilians in Donetsk as has been going on since 2014.
At the end of the vid there is an example of Ukraine taking that one step further, deliberate shelling of an ambulance that was rescuing civilians after a previous shelling.
https://youtu.be/iAcPP2WMlX0
It's good that the Russians aren't doing similar on a far grander scale eh...
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Deliberate targeting of civilians in Donetsk as has been going on since 2014.
At the end of the vid there is an example of Ukraine taking that one step further, deliberate shelling of an ambulance that was rescuing civilians after a previous shelling.
https://youtu.be/iAcPP2WMlX0
Patrick Lancaster?
Alex Jones's favourite vlogger on Ukraine?
You, BRR, are beyond parody.
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Deliberate targeting of civilians in Donetsk as has been going on since 2014.
At the end of the vid there is an example of Ukraine taking that one step further, deliberate shelling of an ambulance that was rescuing civilians after a previous shelling.
https://youtu.be/iAcPP2WMlX0
Patrick Lancaster?
Alex Jones's favourite vlogger on Ukraine?
You, BRR, are beyond parody.
Shame your criticism is based on fluff.
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Deliberate targeting of civilians in Donetsk as has been going on since 2014.
At the end of the vid there is an example of Ukraine taking that one step further, deliberate shelling of an ambulance that was rescuing civilians after a previous shelling.
https://youtu.be/iAcPP2WMlX0
It's good that the Russians aren't doing similar on a far grander scale eh...
I don't condone any of this war. As far as I can see, there is little or no direct targeting of civilians by Russia as there has been by Ukrania in Donetsk especially since 2014. Their shelling of the city has been relentless for several months. Yes, some industrial targets, an occasional military one but hundreds or thousands of civilian ones. Maybe some are by accident, but the bulk are not - as made evident in the video above.
I haven't seen the evidence, I haven't looked, but it is reported they are once again shelling with large quantities of petal mines in the city. This was done in autumn last year too. I saw the evidence of that - guessing your chosen media didn't show it?
Why are they attacking civilians directly like this?
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"Reported".
By Patrick Lancaster by any chance?
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'As far as I can see there is little or no direct targetting of civilians by Russia'
You wont if you only ever view pro-Russian propoganda will you?
To date, 8101 Ukranian civilians have been killed by Russian action (inc 488 children) and 13479 injured (962 children)
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1293492/ukraine-war-casualties/
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You're wasting your time Wilts.
That event last year when Russia lobbed 2 1tonne anti-ship missile warheads into a city centre is still, according to BRR, a targeted attack on a military target, that only killed civilians because it set off a cache of NATO munitions.
I don't know whether it's really sad, or genuinely disgusting to see someone so determined not to face up to what is happening.
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It's never a waste of time to counter falsehoods Billy.
One day this war will be over and we can all read the books about what happened in it. And this thread will still be here.
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To jog BRR's memory......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kremenchuk_shopping_mall_attack
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To jog BRR's memory......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kremenchuk_shopping_mall_attack
Memory? He won't have known about it because conspiracy nuts won't have reported it.
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Not one condemnation of deliberate Ukraine attacks on civilians. Keep taking the soma pills, boys.
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"Reported".
By Patrick Lancaster by any chance?
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/01/31/ukraine-banned-landmines-harm-civilians
https://www.weeklyblitz.net/news/a-teenager-was-blown-up-by-a-mine-petal-in-donetsk/
And so on. Did your dad do your homework for you too?
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Not one condemnation of deliberate Ukraine attacks on civilians. Keep taking the soma pills, boys.
What Ukrainian sources do you use to track the conflict in Ukraine?
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Not one condemnation of deliberate Ukraine attacks on civilians. Keep taking the soma pills, boys.
What Ukrainian sources do you use to track the conflict in Ukraine?
I've regularly watched this channel
https://www.youtube.com/@RFU
Some interesting angles but cherry picking in the extreme on where it focuses. A very unbalanced view.
Other Ukraine sources seem less realistic in referring to what happens on the ground, never acknowledge Ukraine problems. Crazy one sided views. Maybe you have a recomendation?
I've not seen one Ukraine source acknowledge the shelling of civilians in Donesk, nor even acknowledge the shelling there per se - but again, maybe you have?
The BBC is slightly less extreme than most Ukraine sources I've seen, but still wildly one sided in 95% or more of its reports.
But do please tell me what you think of Ukraines deliberate shelling of civilians. Deliberate because there are often, if not usually, no military targets nearby where they are shelling (they have drones as well as people in the city to make decisions), plus this has gone on for nearly 9 years so their guns are well lined up. We're talking a LOT of shelling, not the odd gone astray shot.
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An unverfied youtube channel that may not even be in Ukraine (and definately seems to be pushing Russian propoganda).
So none then. You dont follow any Ukrainan news or individuals to find out what is happening in Ukraine?
But you do follow Russian news & users to find out what is happening in Ukraine.
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"The BBC is slightly less extreme than most Ukraine sources I've seen, but still wildly one sided in 95% or more of its reports."
Yeah of course. Because when one side invades a country, chucks anti-ship missiles into city centres trying to terrorise the population and destroy the utility network, rapes kids and tortures civilians and denies the right of the country to exist, whole the other side desperately tries to survive, you should always bothsides the issue.
f**k me sideways...
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Not one condemnation of deliberate Ukraine attacks on civilians. Keep taking the soma pills, boys.
What Ukrainian sources do you use to track the conflict in Ukraine?
I've regularly watched this channel
https://www.youtube.com/@RFU
Some interesting angles but cherry picking in the extreme on where it focuses. A very unbalanced view.
Other Ukraine sources seem less realistic in referring to what happens on the ground, never acknowledge Ukraine problems. Crazy one sided views. Maybe you have a recomendation?
I've not seen one Ukraine source acknowledge the shelling of civilians in Donesk, nor even acknowledge the shelling there per se - but again, maybe you have?
The BBC is slightly less extreme than most Ukraine sources I've seen, but still wildly one sided in 95% or more of its reports.
But do please tell me what you think of Ukraines deliberate shelling of civilians. Deliberate because there are often, if not usually, no military targets nearby where they are shelling (they have drones as well as people in the city to make decisions), plus this has gone on for nearly 9 years so their guns are well lined up. We're talking a LOT of shelling, not the odd gone astray shot.
You want people to talk about shelling from Ukraine, yet you come out with this...
"As far as I can see, there is little or no direct targeting of civilians by Russia"
You want people to give you alternative news sources that aren't crazy one sided, yet you get your news from sources that are crazy one sided...
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"The BBC is slightly less extreme than most Ukraine sources I've seen, but still wildly one sided in 95% or more of its reports."
Yeah of course. Because when one side invades a country, chucks anti-ship missiles into city centres trying to terrorise the population and destroy the utility network, rapes kids and tortures civilians and denies the right of the country to exist, whole the other side desperately tries to survive, you should always bothsides the issue.
f**k me sideways...
I think you have been f**ked sideways, by western media, I'm suprised you didn't notice but then its been going on for some time.
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Not one condemnation of deliberate Ukraine attacks on civilians. Keep taking the soma pills, boys.
What Ukrainian sources do you use to track the conflict in Ukraine?
I've regularly watched this channel
https://www.youtube.com/@RFU
Some interesting angles but cherry picking in the extreme on where it focuses. A very unbalanced view.
Other Ukraine sources seem less realistic in referring to what happens on the ground, never acknowledge Ukraine problems. Crazy one sided views. Maybe you have a recomendation?
I've not seen one Ukraine source acknowledge the shelling of civilians in Donesk, nor even acknowledge the shelling there per se - but again, maybe you have?
The BBC is slightly less extreme than most Ukraine sources I've seen, but still wildly one sided in 95% or more of its reports.
But do please tell me what you think of Ukraines deliberate shelling of civilians. Deliberate because there are often, if not usually, no military targets nearby where they are shelling (they have drones as well as people in the city to make decisions), plus this has gone on for nearly 9 years so their guns are well lined up. We're talking a LOT of shelling, not the odd gone astray shot.
You want people to talk about shelling from Ukraine, yet you come out with this...
"As far as I can see, there is little or no direct targeting of civilians by Russia"
You want people to give you alternative news sources that aren't crazy one sided, yet you get your news from sources that are crazy one sided...
That's a feeble cowardly argument. And deliberately steeped in propaganda rhetoric.
Which deliberate Russian targeting are you referring to?
Do you approve of that in the same way you approve of Ukraine targeting of civilians.
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An unverfied youtube channel that may not even be in Ukraine (and definately seems to be pushing Russian propoganda).
So none then. You dont follow any Ukrainan news or individuals to find out what is happening in Ukraine?
But you do follow Russian news & users to find out what is happening in Ukraine.
How is that pushing Russian propaganda?
What Ukraine news do you follow? What do you think gives accurate news? Why do you think it gives accurate news? What is its sources?
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It seems the owner of the Wagner Group thinks his men are being betrayed by Putin, I wonder if he’s considering pulling his men out, and if he does what happens to the Russian forces then?
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Prizhogin is probably the only man in Russia who could bring down Putin. He's in a position where he can say "Putin has led us into a disaster, thinking he was the reincarnation of Stalin. You want a true Man of Steel? Look at what my private army has achieved at Bakhmut." IF 2023 goes as badly for Putin as the second half of 2022 does, I expect a move from Prizhogin. If he's confident enough to be calling Putin out already, this might be the groundwork.
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As bad as things are under Putin the prospect of Prizhogin replacing him is frightening.
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Anybody know who blew up nordstream yet?
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Starmer?
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It was Sue Gray the sneaky old bird
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Right.
Where's my screwdriver for getting the doors off the frames?
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A video has been released of the Russians downing that American drone, just shows what lying bas**rds those Russians are, I expect our resident Russian fan boy will defend it
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Russia claims the drone was violating an airspace limit that it had unilaterally imposed.
They are doing their usual thing of engaging in provocative action that threatens escalation to see how the West responds. It's highly, highly dangerous because a tit-for-tat response can spiral out of control.
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Wonder how the Americans would respond if Russia was flying a drone in the gulf of Mexico?
I've seen the video, doesn't look like the jet hit the drone to me.
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Wonder how the Americans would respond if Russia was flying a drone in the gulf of Mexico?
I've seen the video, doesn't look like the jet hit the drone to me.
I would imagine the US would send an interceptor to anyone flying a drone in international airspace near their territory, i doubt they would dump aviation fuel over it in the process.
If you've seen the video and don't think there was some sort of contact between the jet and the drone after seeing the damaged propeller on the drone then i suggest you must be BRR in drag.
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Stand corrected. I've now seen the full video showing the damaged propeller
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America should put a couple of F-22’s right where the drone was, in international airspace, and see what the Russians do then with their inferior aircraft
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Wonder how the Americans would respond if Russia was flying a drone in the gulf of Mexico?
I've seen the video, doesn't look like the jet hit the drone to me.
It was deliberate. I notice no one got hurt. Who cares?
I agree, if this was say flying from Cuba towards Florida there'd be a similar reaction by the USA. No doubt.
What would be the case if China became beasties with Mexico or Canada and moved missiles near to all those very paranoid (nb Trumps Wall) US cities?
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yep, that why they downed the balloons in US airspace
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Russia claims the drone was violating an airspace limit that it had unilaterally imposed.
They are doing their usual thing of engaging in provocative action that threatens escalation to see how the West responds. It's highly, highly dangerous because a tit-for-tat response can spiral out of control.
Yet you're happy that the EU invited Ukraine in, that NATO invited Ukraine in, happy that the US wants to put missiles nearer to Moscow, happy that there was a racial reaction in Ukraine that resulted in many deaths.
Spiralling - you probs think earth is the centre of our galaxy.
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yep, that why they downed the balloons in US airspace
Not sure how that relates.
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oh well
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https://twitter.com/d_foubert/status/1571224457854730242?s=46&t=Uj9lS9cW2ksdznjWwHqrkQ
Russia: A historical backdrop
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Arrest warrant issued for Putin, good luck with that one.
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That's his foreign holidays up the spout then.
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Whilst the arrest warrant short term is nothing but a paper exercise, 139 countries all over the world have signed up to this. And 118 have ratified their membership of such.
In the short term this will not cause VP an issue.
In the longer term it does curtail his movement around the world . He can forget any jaunts to the whole of South America for instance.
He has a not so secret place in the super exclusive Aleta Hills community on the outskirts of Altea near Alicante which he used to like to frequent. Rumoured to be his fave holiday spot .
That’s off the list too.
It’s Taiga in the Siberian outback from now on.
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No doubt other leading council members will be next.
Beginning of the endgame for this despot and his regime as the civilised world closes ranks around him.
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The rat is being cornered. Slowly but surely.
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Cornered rats can be incredibly dangerous.
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Unless you've got a bloomin great stick or something stronger
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He knows he’s dead if he tries anything stupid. And sadly I think that’s his priority over millions of others.
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Cornered rats can be incredibly dangerous.
indeed. and if you've read the story of Putins upbringing, esp when he was a child, then it does raise obvious concerns.
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I don't believe anything putin has said to date
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Will the ICC ever go for Bush for carpet bombing millions of Iraqis?
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Will the ICC ever go for Bush for carpet bombing millions of Iraqis?
I was just about to say no one here mentioned how the US isn't signed up to this court. So when Zelensky is in Hollywood after all this is over, will Putin have a court order against him not to go within 200 yards of Zelensky's crib and make do with parading around Muscle Beach when he goes for his jollies?
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Will the ICC ever go for Bush for carpet bombing millions of Iraqis?
Yep that didn’t happen
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Whilst the US may not be a signatory to this, does anyone honestly think Putin would step foot on US soil?
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Will the ICC ever go for Bush for carpet bombing millions of Iraqis?
I'm no supporter of Bush or the Iraq War, but America didn't carpet bomb millions in Iraq. Unlike Putin did in Chechnya and Aleppo.
America also didn't systematically steal children from captured territory and "integrate" them in its own country. Which is what Putin's regime has bragged about doing.
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So the "shock and awe" bombing of Baghdad in 2003 never happened?
Well f**k me.
Putin is a Kitson by the way, I wish he would be assassinated along with Bush and Blair.
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Will the ICC ever go for Bush for carpet bombing millions of Iraqis?
I'm no supporter of Bush or the Iraq War, but America didn't carpet bomb millions in Iraq. Unlike Putin did in Chechnya and Aleppo.
America also didn't systematically steal children from captured territory and "integrate" them in its own country. Which is what Putin's regime has bragged about doing.
Like the Chinese are doing with the muslim kids too.
And yet only a few days ago you were favourably comparing the Chinese government to ours.
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So the "shock and awe" bombing of Baghdad in 2003 never happened?
Well f**k me.
Putin is a Kitson by the way, I wish he would be assassinated along with Bush and Blair.
Shock and awe did happen but the carpet bombing of millions did not.
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Wasn’t it brave of him to go visit Mariupol? At night. What freedoms. Lol.
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So the &quot;shock and awe&quot; bombing of Baghdad in 2003 never happened?
Well f**k me.
Putin is a Kitson by the way, I wish he would be assassinated along with Bush and Blair.
Shock and awe did happen but the carpet bombing of millions did not.
Madelaine Albright thought the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children were worth it.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65032671
UK sending "safe" uranium to Ukraine
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65032671
UK sending "safe" uranium to Ukraine
Good - you do know that the Russians already have this option in their armoury.
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-65032671
UK sending &quot;safe&quot; uranium to Ukraine
Good - you do know that the Russians already have this option in their armoury.
I think the point is if Ukraine uses it. So far Russia hasn't.
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Russia has taken up Presidency on the UN security Council.
Ridiculous.
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From the BBC:
"Moscow's ambassador to the UN, Vasily Nebenzia, told the Russian Tass news agency that he planned to oversee several debates, including one on arms control.
He said he would discuss a "new world order" that, he said, was coming to "replace the unipolar one". "
Sounds like two important issues being raised there. I know many like the security of having a US overlord, but evidently times are changing.
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Putin wanted to halt NATO on it’s borders by his aggression, today he’s got 830 more miles of NATO on his borders, thats a bit of a kick in the teeth for him, he’ll have to mobilise to police that 830 miles if he wants to keep fighting Ukraine. I’m sure that will go down well with the natives
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This is an interesting development
''Takeaways from AP’s report on elite Russian defector''
''LONDON (AP) — In October, an officer in Russian President Vladimir Putin’s elite personal security service defected while on a business trip in Kazakhstan.
Now a wanted man in Russia, Gleb Karakulov spoke out for the first time in a series of interviews with the Dossier Center, an investigative group in London funded by Russian opposition figure Mikhail Khodorkovsky. The AP took steps to review and verify the material''
https://apnews.com/article/defector-russia-takeaways-karakulov-dossier-center-putin-42c570974c93255d178c5b373c9c12d3
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Putin wanted to halt NATO on it’s borders by his aggression, today he’s got 830 more miles of NATO on his borders, thats a bit of a kick in the teeth for him, he’ll have to mobilise to police that 830 miles if he wants to keep fighting Ukraine. I’m sure that will go down well with the natives
Just to put my two-pennorth on your comment Filo - in reality there is no threat to Putin from the new extended land border with NATO Countries' territory, NATO will never launch a first attack into Russia. This only comes into play if an Article V situation arises, a NATO Country is attacked by Russia, and a war with Russia starts. Only at this point may defence include strikes against military targets in Russia. Only a person as duplicitous as Putin, who would and does break rules to attack when it suits him, would calculate that NATO might do the same thing. Hence his need to keep some forces to defend that newly enlarged border.
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Dutch, how does it work if a NATO country, on its own decision, or as part of a collective, attacks a non NATO country
1) goes into that non NATO countries borders
or 2) fires into that country with missiles, drones, shells
or 3) attacks with aircraft inside that country
and is then counter attacked whereby the non NATO country enters the NATO country in any of the above ways.
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BRR
In that hypothetical, I strongly suspect the rest of NATO would give the same response Kaiser Wilhelm gave his Prime Minister in 1914. "You have cooked this soup. Now you will have to eat it."
Strange that you continue to look for these hypotheticals to explore NATO's philosophy, but you find it so hard to unequivocally condemn Russia for invading a neighbouring state.
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How is that strange? There's no relationship between the points you state.
It's hypothetical, but also something that could easily happen. If it did, you might not be concerned, but others might not be wanting a nuclear winter with the price of heating these days.
The second point I've already replied to. I detest the invasion, less so with Crimea.
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Dutch, how does it work if a NATO country, on its own decision, or as part of a collective, attacks a non NATO country
1) goes into that non NATO countries borders
or 2) fires into that country with missiles, drones, shells
or 3) attacks with aircraft inside that country
and is then counter attacked whereby the non NATO country enters the NATO country in any of the above ways.
There are examples of that, but apart from sabre rattling and skirmishes between Greece and Turkey I cannot recall any within the NATO defined area of responsibility, e.g. UK in Falklands was 'invaded' but NATO did not come to UK aid because it was out of region.
If you are talking about Finland or some other NATO nation with a border with Russia, IMHO there is no indigenous national force along Russia's borders with NATO countries that would have anywhere near enough offensive capability to launch serious attack with any objective other than suicide, so the point is IMHO moot. Why on earth would any of those countries wish to attack into Russia unilaterally?
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Poland joining in is the biggest danger. There are already a lot of Poles fighting in Ukraine, plus with the new NATO weapons it's likely that some Poles who are familiar with them will be operating them as well as maintaining them possibly within Ukraine as well as in Poland. Where is the red line there? Who knows.
Given Zelensky's recent trip to Poland, and the very desperate situation where to fail in an offensive in the coming weeks would likely lose support from NATO countries, who knows what mutually beneficial deals were struck? Both current support and a potential unification of the Kyiv state and Poland if Russia takes the territory in the east and south and breaks the Ukraine forces, as is highly possible. Conjecture for sure, but it is the dangerous spot.
Finland I doubt would do anything despite being very well placed with manpower and weapons.
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Dutch, how does it work if a NATO country, on its own decision, or as part of a collective, attacks a non NATO country
1) goes into that non NATO countries borders
or 2) fires into that country with missiles, drones, shells
or 3) attacks with aircraft inside that country
and is then counter attacked whereby the non NATO country enters the NATO country in any of the above ways.
Poland joining in is the biggest danger. There are already a lot of Poles fighting in Ukraine, plus with the new NATO weapons it's likely that some Poles who are familiar with them will be operating them as well as maintaining them possibly within Ukraine as well as in Poland. Where is the red line there? Who knows.
Given Zelensky's recent trip to Poland, and the very desperate situation where to fail in an offensive in the coming weeks would likely lose support from NATO countries, who knows what mutually beneficial deals were struck? Both current support and a potential unification of the Kyiv state and Poland if Russia takes the territory in the east and south and breaks the Ukraine forces, as is highly possible. Conjecture for sure, but it is the dangerous spot.
Finland I doubt would do anything despite being very well placed with manpower and weapons.
I am a bit confused by your last post BRR
First of all Poland’s border with Russia comprises only the 232km border with the enclave of Kaliningrad, and there is no chance as far as I can see of Poland wishing to attack there unilaterally.
On the other hand I would be astounded if there any Poles fighting in Ukraine who are not individual mercenaries (like a number of British and Americans) unauthorised by their government.
Also I do not see them attacking Russian territory as you suggest in (1) or flying aircraft as in (3). As far as I can see attacks within Russia (I don’t count Crimea) are limited to drones and very small numbers of special forces (e.g. airbase sabotage attacks). Again I would be astounded if that involved Polish Government supported Polish nationals.
So I until I see evidence to the contrary I still think your question is moot. Why would Poland risk such escalation and possible alienation from NATO?
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The thing I said about the Poles is different to what I said before, I raised it as it is a potential issue.
Serving Poles can easily be dropped from their military and be free to go to Ukraine. Fudgy red line. And I am talking of them entering direct conflict with Russia. If they set foot in the regions Russia has claimed, they are fighting on Russian territory as far as Russia is concerned. Another fudgy red line. Practically speaking, there has not been enough time for training on the new NATO countries equipment for Ukraine to be effective with it, so the chances of ex military mercenaries from outside Ukraine who are familiar with that equipment hopping on board is more than probable.
Would NATO be concerned? Given NATO is made up of countries desperate to harm Russians, I think they would fudge any red lines there too, especially the US. A flat out denial of there being their soldiers involved, when they would be, and have been, soldiers till very recently, even if prematurely released.
Back to my original question. Whether or not you think any country bordering Russia would initiate one of those actions I said, if they did and there was a Russian retaliation, does NATO get triggered?
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Only just noticed this. According to the Ukraine papers leak there are at least 50 UK Special Forces troops operating in Ukraine.
Is it legal for the government to deploy UK troops in a war zone without the consent of Parliament?
https://declassifieduk.org/u-s-intel-leak-reveals-50-elite-british-troops-in-ukraine/
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Wilts, the only question to answer is, is it legal for a neighbouring country to invade a sovereign country's territory, if not, and it clearly is not, then I would say it should be open house to repel the invader who is in the wrong.
Or would you expect someone to come into your house in the middle of the night and have a right to do so without you taking some form of action.
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Only just noticed this. According to the Ukraine papers leak there are at least 50 UK Special Forces troops operating in Ukraine.
Is it legal for the government to deploy UK troops in a war zone without the consent of Parliament?
https://declassifieduk.org/u-s-intel-leak-reveals-50-elite-british-troops-in-ukraine/
I think that very much depends on how you define "war zone". If they were fighting at the front line without Parliament being aware, this would be exceptionally serious.
If they are involved in security for senior British politicians (and Boris Johnson) visiting Kyiv, I think that's pretty much standard operations.
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Only just noticed this. According to the Ukraine papers leak there are at least 50 UK Special Forces troops operating in Ukraine.
Is it legal for the government to deploy UK troops in a war zone without the consent of Parliament?
https://declassifieduk.org/u-s-intel-leak-reveals-50-elite-british-troops-in-ukraine/
I think that very much depends on how you define "war zone". If they were fighting at the front line without Parliament being aware, this would be exceptionally serious.
If they are involved in security for senior British politicians (and Boris Johnson) visiting Kyiv, I think that's pretty much standard operations.
Special Forces don't provide security. These are active troops, according to the leaks (just been on Channel 4 News too - very briefly).
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Wilts, the only question to answer is, is it legal for a neighbouring country to invade a sovereign country's territory, if not, and it clearly is not, then I would say it should be open house to repel the invader who is in the wrong.
Or would you expect someone to come into your house in the middle of the night and have a right to do so without you taking some form of action.
What's that got to do with the government sending UK troops to enter combat operations overseas without the consent of Parliament? The UK has not declared war on Russia?
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Only just noticed this. According to the Ukraine papers leak there are at least 50 UK Special Forces troops operating in Ukraine.
Is it legal for the government to deploy UK troops in a war zone without the consent of Parliament?
https://declassifieduk.org/u-s-intel-leak-reveals-50-elite-british-troops-in-ukraine/
I think that very much depends on how you define &quot;war zone&quot;. If they were fighting at the front line without Parliament being aware, this would be exceptionally serious.
If they are involved in security for senior British politicians (and Boris Johnson) visiting Kyiv, I think that's pretty much standard operations.
Special Forces don't provide security. These are active troops, according to the leaks (just been on Channel 4 News too - very briefly).
I wouldn't be so sure that SF wouldn't be involved in providing security for a PM visiting a capital city of a country at war. They could well be involved in route planning, assessment of protection afforded by Ukraine forces, being placed to pick off potential assassination attempts and probably most suitably, to get the PM out sharpish if anything kicked off during a visit.
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I'd be absolutely astonished if they were on front line duties. That would be risking WWII.
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I think we've already had that one Billy :-]]
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Ha! Aye, I'm behind the times.
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Wilts, the only question to answer is, is it legal for a neighbouring country to invade a sovereign country's territory, if not, and it clearly is not, then I would say it should be open house to repel the invader who is in the wrong.
Or would you expect someone to come into your house in the middle of the night and have a right to do so without you taking some form of action.
To be pedantic, that's not quite the same parallel there. I think you mean if person 1 had gone into their neighbours, person 2, house a few streets away from person 3 claiming that they'd been bullying a friend of theirs who lived there, and claiming they were getting several mates from other streets with bulldozers to sit outside person 1's house. And then person 3 sent his son (UK special forces) over to help kick person 1 out of their neighbours house, but hadn't told all the others who lived in the house with person 3 about that, knowing that person 1 had the mother of all bulldozer companies.
I think that's nearer to the picture. But nowt wrong with a bit of simplifying to justify a foolish action.
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And again, but in English this time please
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I think it translates as "It's the fault of NATO and the EU."
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First time I have been on this thread for a few weeks but I have just heard on the evening news that a video has emerged of a Ukraine soldier being beheaded by a Russian soldier.
They said that the video isn’t yet confirmed as authentic but it is likely to be true.
Apologies if this has been reported already on here.
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Only just noticed this. According to the Ukraine papers leak there are at least 50 UK Special Forces troops operating in Ukraine.
Is it legal for the government to deploy UK troops in a war zone without the consent of Parliament?
https://declassifieduk.org/u-s-intel-leak-reveals-50-elite-british-troops-in-ukraine/
I’d be more surprised and a little disappointed if UKSF were not in Ukraine.
Something the UK govt would never ever confirm of course.
You only have to look at some of the more successful targetted strikes.
The story of Ukrainian special forces who destroyed as many as 20 Russian aircraft at Saki air base in Crimea. Classic SAS tactic. Get in behind enemy lines, at a time and place where the enemy least expects you. Cause the most damage in as little time as possible and disappear back into the night. I have little doubt this was at least directed and instructed by UKSF, and possibly even involved them. Backed by remote UK based Intel support.
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First time I have been on this thread for a few weeks but I have just heard on the evening news that a video has emerged of a Ukraine soldier being beheaded by a Russian soldier.
They said that the video isn’t yet confirmed as authentic but it is likely to be true.
Apologies if this has been reported already on here.
Treason in the USA can carry the death penalty
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They get to be the leader of the Labour Party and SNP here Filo.
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A thread about war in Europe. Posts about torture and summary executions. And all you can contribute is stale shite like that Selby.
Toddle off back to Talk Radio.
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They get to be the leader of the Labour Party and SNP here Filo.
You’re just a nasty old man
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Killing prisoners of war is wrong, and counter productive. Certainly good propaganda/news to use to dissuade the thousands of Ukraines currently trapped in Artemivsk/Bakhmut from surrendering. Also handy to demonise Russians. Maybe it's true, maybe not, I haven't seen it, don't wish to see it, don't know the exact circumstances around it.
Cutting off of heads has been used across the whole world from pre history to current times to promote fear. It's not uncommon. I personally don't like it, but rather than react as the perpetrators and publicists of all levels intend for us to react, think about it. Is it worst than being shot, shot and dying slowly over days, getting an infection from shrapnel and eventually dying, being burnt alive, etc etc. And for that matter is hanging any better?
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Killing prisoners of war is wrong, and counter productive. Certainly good propaganda/news to use to dissuade the thousands of Ukraines currently trapped in Artemivsk/Bakhmut from surrendering. Also handy to demonise Russians. Maybe it's true, maybe not, I haven't seen it, don't wish to see it, don't know the exact circumstances around it.
Cutting off of heads has been used across the whole world from pre history to current times to promote fear. It's not uncommon. I personally don't like it, but rather than react as the perpetrators and publicists of all levels intend for us to react, think about it. Is it worst than being shot, shot and dying slowly over days, getting an infection from shrapnel and eventually dying, being burnt alive, etc etc. And for that matter is hanging any better?
What a strange explanation to justify someone being beheaded
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Only just noticed this. According to the Ukraine papers leak there are at least 50 UK Special Forces troops operating in Ukraine.
Is it legal for the government to deploy UK troops in a war zone without the consent of Parliament?
https://declassifieduk.org/u-s-intel-leak-reveals-50-elite-british-troops-in-ukraine/
I’d be more surprised and a little disappointed if UKSF were not in Ukraine.
Something the UK govt would never ever confirm of course.
You only have to look at some of the more successful targetted strikes.
The story of Ukrainian special forces who destroyed as many as 20 Russian aircraft at Saki air base in Crimea. Classic SAS tactic. Get in behind enemy lines, at a time and place where the enemy least expects you. Cause the most damage in as little time as possible and disappear back into the night. I have little doubt this was at least directed and instructed by UKSF, and possibly even involved them. Backed by remote UK based Intel support.
If British troops are involved in combat or sabotage operations against Russian troops, especially IN Russia, either in or out of uniform, that is an act of war. Which requires assent by Parliament NOT the government.
And Johnson said explicity that British troops would not be deployed to Ukraine but would stay within NATO territory.
Doesn't matter whether you or anyone else think they should be there. You are playing with WW3 here - without Parliament getting a say in it.
https://inews.co.uk/news/world/uk-war-will-go-russia-nato-ukraine-where-british-troops-deployed-explained-1492266
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Killing prisoners of war is wrong, and counter productive. Certainly good propaganda/news to use to dissuade the thousands of Ukraines currently trapped in Artemivsk/Bakhmut from surrendering. Also handy to demonise Russians. Maybe it's true, maybe not, I haven't seen it, don't wish to see it, don't know the exact circumstances around it.
Cutting off of heads has been used across the whole world from pre history to current times to promote fear. It's not uncommon. I personally don't like it, but rather than react as the perpetrators and publicists of all levels intend for us to react, think about it. Is it worst than being shot, shot and dying slowly over days, getting an infection from shrapnel and eventually dying, being burnt alive, etc etc. And for that matter is hanging any better?
What a strange explanation to justify someone being beheaded
It's called perspective, and understanding. No excusing.
For me, anyone shooting anyone, burning a human, slicing a person up with shrapnel, cutting off a head, hanging someone, is all sick.
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But it's OK for Russia to be the cause of making you sick
So if Ukraine stopped shooting at and killing people who have invaded their territory that would be fine with you because you wouldn't feel sick?
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But it's OK for Russia to be the cause of making you sick
So if Ukraine stopped shooting at and killing people who have invaded their territory that would be fine with you because you wouldn't feel sick?
It all makes me sick. Killing was going on several years before Russia invaded. There was a power struggle, one arguably caused by NATO/US/EU interfering, most definitely subsequently fuelled by them, as well as Russia interfering. Russia, very predictably, reacted later on. There have been attempts at peace, it would seem the US particularly, and its lackie, scuppered those attempts.
It's a complex situation that is little to do with the welfare of Ukrainians, everything to do with global geopolitics.
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But it's OK for Russia to be the cause of making you sick
So if Ukraine stopped shooting at and killing people who have invaded their territory that would be fine with you because you wouldn't feel sick?
It all makes me sick. Killing was going on several years before Russia invaded. There was a power struggle, one arguably caused by NATO/US/EU interfering, most definitely subsequently fuelled by them, as well as Russia interfering. Russia, very predictably, reacted later on. There have been attempts at peace, it would seem the US particularly, and its lackie, scuppered those attempts.
It's a complex situation that is little to do with the welfare of Ukrainians, everything to do with global geopolitics.
Ate you Putins speech writer?
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But it's OK for Russia to be the cause of making you sick
So if Ukraine stopped shooting at and killing people who have invaded their territory that would be fine with you because you wouldn't feel sick?
It all makes me sick. Killing was going on several years before Russia invaded. There was a power struggle, one arguably caused by NATO/US/EU interfering, most definitely subsequently fuelled by them, as well as Russia interfering. Russia, very predictably, reacted later on. There have been attempts at peace, it would seem the US particularly, and its lackie, scuppered those attempts.
It's a complex situation that is little to do with the welfare of Ukrainians, everything to do with global geopolitics.
Ate you Putins speech writer?
Did you say something with content?
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But it's OK for Russia to be the cause of making you sick
So if Ukraine stopped shooting at and killing people who have invaded their territory that would be fine with you because you wouldn't feel sick?
It all makes me sick. Killing was going on several years before Russia invaded. There was a power struggle, one arguably caused by NATO/US/EU interfering, most definitely subsequently fuelled by them, as well as Russia interfering. Russia, very predictably, reacted later on. There have been attempts at peace, it would seem the US particularly, and its lackie, scuppered those attempts.
It's a complex situation that is little to do with the welfare of Ukrainians, everything to do with global geopolitics.
It's this simplification into "Both sides are killing: All killing is reprehensible: Therefore, both sides are reprehensible: Therefore we shouldn't take a moral stance" that depresses me more that anything.
It's actually a highly amoral stance dressed up as pious morality. It's what happens when you take bothsidesism to it's logical conclusion. Everyone is flawed to some extent, therefore there's no difference between any sides.
BRR talks about the EU and NATO fomenting the problems in Ukraine. And about Russia "reacting". And then washes his hands of any moral criticism.
He talks about killings starting before Russia invaded, as though the killings came from nowhere.
That's the simplification of the schoolyard.
How this situation actually started is that Viktor Vanukovych was elected President of Ukraine on a ticket that included moves towards membership of the EU.
Democratically elected.
Nothing to do with NATO. He'd unambiguously ruled out NATO membership.
Nothing to do with "the EU" (whatever that is- BRR never seems to explain) forcing Ukraine.
Yanukovych then spent three years negotiating an initial agreement with the EU. Not for membership. That would be years away. But for closer alignment. As he'd been democratically elected to do.
On the eve of the signing of the agreement, Yanukovych visited Moscow.
When he attended the signing ceremony, he said the deal was off and Ukraine was going to economically align more closely to Russia.
He'd never given any indication of this coming. Make your own decisions on what he was told in Moscow. People at the signing ceremony said he was visibly shaken when he arrived.
In response to this blatant change of the policy that Yanukovych had been elected in, there were mass popular protests in many Ukrainian cities.
BRR calls this a "coup", in line with the official line from Moscow.
It was actually peacefully, if angry, until Yanukovych's riot squad started firing on protestors, eventually killing over 100.
THAT is how the killing started.
+++++++++++++++++++
And don't get me started on the moral obscenity of equating the killing on the battlefield of an armed member of a military invasion force, and the videoed decapitation of an unarmed prisoner of war. Nevermind the cold blooded rape and murder of civilians behind the line of hostilities.
What f**king moral hell do you come from to equate the two?
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Despite the clear facts being succinctly laid out there for him, BST, he will continue posting his disgraceful nonsense. He has neither shame nor self-awareness of the person he shows himself to be.
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BST, some of what you say is true, some conjecture, most over simplification, and you miss out a lot. Of course NATO/US/EU were involved in this from a long time back. I've described some of that, but you are so evidently blinkered, and "depressed", that you will never see beyond what you're spoon-fed by your masters. This is just one of the many issues on this board that you exhibit the exact same style of dogmatic, and aggressive, rhetoric.
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We'll that's good to see evidence-based debating still surviving in here.
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Only just noticed this. According to the Ukraine papers leak there are at least 50 UK Special Forces troops operating in Ukraine.
Is it legal for the government to deploy UK troops in a war zone without the consent of Parliament?
https://declassifieduk.org/u-s-intel-leak-reveals-50-elite-british-troops-in-ukraine/
I’d be more surprised and a little disappointed if UKSF were not in Ukraine.
Something the UK govt would never ever confirm of course.
You only have to look at some of the more successful targetted strikes.
The story of Ukrainian special forces who destroyed as many as 20 Russian aircraft at Saki air base in Crimea. Classic SAS tactic. Get in behind enemy lines, at a time and place where the enemy least expects you. Cause the most damage in as little time as possible and disappear back into the night. I have little doubt this was at least directed and instructed by UKSF, and possibly even involved them. Backed by remote UK based Intel support.
If British troops are involved in combat or sabotage operations against Russian troops, especially IN Russia, either in or out of uniform, that is an act of war. Which requires assent by Parliament NOT the government.
And Johnson said explicity that British troops would not be deployed to Ukraine but would stay within NATO territory.
Doesn't matter whether you or anyone else think they should be there. You are playing with WW3 here - without Parliament getting a say in it.
https://inews.co.uk/news/world/uk-war-will-go-russia-nato-ukraine-where-british-troops-deployed-explained-1492266
I understand fully the ramifications of the presence of uk troops in Ukraine. IF ever proven. Or any other countries spec forces for that matter.
But Clandestine Ops is what SF do.
Hidden activities. Secret deployments. Un reported. Un noticed by the general population. Un known ops. Authorised at the very highest level. And known about by very very few people.
It’s how they came to be in the first place.
No publicity. No fanfares. Maximum damage with no trace left they were even there .
They are damn good at it. It’s part of what makes them “special”
But no govt, especially the British one, would ever admit to this taking place. Johnson’s comments about there not being any British troops deployed there is exactly what I’d expect govt to say.
Ukraine has provided the perfect arena for them to do their business.
I have a very strong suspicion they will be there. A very small unit, such as some of those that form the “Increment” could do a hell of a lot of harm to the Russian war effort.
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I can’t bet that the US let a 21 year old idiot have access to such classified information, I really do believe that this is Black Ops, an attempt to get Putin to escalate the conflict so we can all enjoy a Nuclear winter or two
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And the US has previous convictions for doing this ie Iraq.
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I can’t bet that the US let a 21 year old idiot have access to such classified information, I really do believe that this is Black Ops, an attempt to get Putin to escalate the conflict so we can all enjoy a Buclear winter or two
The many facets of conflict in the 21st c mean that sadly, pretty much anything is possible.
Is Buclear a biological armageddon.?
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We'll that's good to see evidence-based debating still surviving in here.
BST, do you see how Russia has been progressively provoked whereby they opted to invade? I'm not asking you to agree with any justification for invasion, but do you understand the provocation?
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BRR, don’t you think that the Ukrainian people have a right to decide who they want to trade with and form alliances with?
Russia under Putin and his cronies has hardly been a shining example of democracy and caring for the common people.
They see a brighter future being closer to the democratic Western Europeans. Maybe Putin is more frightened that the Russian people seeing Ukraine have a much better life with close ties to NATO countries will cause jealousy and unrest among his own people, undermining his power base.
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Top and bottom line is Putin is a Soviet dinosaur, hankering for a dictorial past and domineering his neighbours
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BRR, don’t you think that the Ukrainian people have a right to decide who they want to trade with and form alliances with?
Russia under Putin and his cronies has hardly been a shining example of democracy and caring for the common people.
They see a brighter future being closer to the democratic Western Europeans. Maybe Putin is more frightened that the Russian people seeing Ukraine have a much better life with close ties to NATO countries will cause jealousy and unrest among his own people, undermining his power base.
Very good point, idler.
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BRR, don’t you think that the Ukrainian people have a right to decide who they want to trade with and form alliances with?
Russia under Putin and his cronies has hardly been a shining example of democracy and caring for the common people.
They see a brighter future being closer to the democratic Western Europeans. Maybe Putin is more frightened that the Russian people seeing Ukraine have a much better life with close ties to NATO countries will cause jealousy and unrest among his own people, undermining his power base.
Interesting point and question. I'm not pro Russia here, just mainly putting across a perspective that is less moulded by Western media, which is steeped in propaganda that benefits Western elites. So....
First, take a look around at the poverty even in this country. The economic bias towards the haves and the disregard of the have nots is criminal. The cultural poverty is dire too. Is Russia better? No, tho it is different. The important question is what about Ukraine. It's long been ruled by elites, possibly less subtle than we have. Maybe less subtle than Russia too. It has been a mess for a long time. Joining NATO and the EU is yet more propagandic icing on a tasteless cake. The very same gangsters ruling Ukraine are the ones who would benefit, who have benefitted, from Western entanglement - them and the US gangsters who already own a lot of Ukraine. A lot of the aid that's gone over there has been syphoned off. Ordinary people are stuffed. They were before the war, now many times more, and maimed, and dead. Some might prefer the west, some the east, others a mix.
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BRR, don’t you think that the Ukrainian people have a right to decide who they want to trade with and form alliances with?
Russia under Putin and his cronies has hardly been a shining example of democracy and caring for the common people.
They see a brighter future being closer to the democratic Western Europeans. Maybe Putin is more frightened that the Russian people seeing Ukraine have a much better life with close ties to NATO countries will cause jealousy and unrest among his own people, undermining his power base.
Interesting point and question. I'm not pro Russia here, just mainly putting across a perspective that is less moulded by Western media, which is steeped in propaganda that benefits Western elites. So....
First, take a look around at the poverty even in this country. The economic bias towards the haves and the disregard of the have nots is criminal. The cultural poverty is dire too. Is Russia better? No, tho it is different. The important question is what about Ukraine. It's long been ruled by elites, possibly less subtle than we have. Maybe less subtle than Russia too. It has been a mess for a long time. Joining NATO and the EU is yet more propagandic icing on a tasteless cake. The very same gangsters ruling Ukraine are the ones who would benefit, who have benefitted, from Western entanglement - them and the US gangsters who already own a lot of Ukraine. A lot of the aid that's gone over there has been syphoned off. Ordinary people are stuffed. They were before the war, now many times more, and maimed, and dead. Some might prefer the west, some the east, others a mix.
A lot of words without addressing the original question Idler asked you
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Filo, you're right, I should have made that clear. Yes they do, just like Brits have the right to choose their leaders, and their allegiances. Don't you think the lies they are fed in this, the bus for example, make the choosing not free? Manipulation, dishonesty, propaganda, kill choice.
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The choice the Ukrainians have made is that they have chosen to defend their homeland and give up their lives for it.
As for lies, how many Russian soldiers have died thinking that they were on a special military operation as Putin called it?
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More evidence of just what barbarians the Russians are.
They've lost 100,000 men trying to take Bakhmut. Now they are about to be pushed out of the region, so they torch the remains of the city with white phosphorus.
https://twitter.com/JayinKyiv/status/1654563909804728322
They will be beaten. They know that. And their response is to leave whole areas destroyed.
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Russia clearly targeting Civilian areas, trying to terrorise the civilian population into submission, cowards the lot of them, I can’t wait for the Ukrainian offensive to rout the Russian army and Wagner
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Russia clearly targeting Civilian areas, trying to terrorise the civilian population into submission, cowards the lot of them, I can’t wait for the Ukrainian offensive to rout the Russian army and Wagner
Where are Russians targeting civilian areas? What about Ukraines targeting Donetsk, daily, for several years?
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More evidence of just what barbarians the Russians are.
They've lost 100,000 men trying to take Bakhmut. Now they are about to be pushed out of the region, so they torch the remains of the city with white phosphorus.
https://twitter.com/JayinKyiv/status/1654563909804728322
They will be beaten. They know that. And their response is to leave whole areas destroyed.
100k, is that what you read in the Beano? How many Ukraine troops dead there?
Ukraines been blowing up buildings as they retreat. Well documented by themselves.
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News being reported by Russian sources that Ukranian troops have broken through Russian defences in several places and Russians in danger of being surrounded unless they pull back. Presumably this means the Ukranian offensive has just started - guss we shall see soon:
https://twitter.com/christogrozev/status/1656748785492455448
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It's interesting to see the limitations of US tech - Patriots, HIMARS, and F-16s if they dare let them go to war? For sure there's been issues with the Russians, but as time goes on, they have got the upper hand with their kit, upper hand over NATO, not just Ukraine. Upper hand with tactics too.
Still to see how the NATO tanks perform. A couple of dead Challengers reported, slung into a vulnerable attack, but early days there.
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Where’s the big Russian offensive this year? Was expecting it once the winter ended. Is he short on bodies? Haven’t followed it too closely.
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Did I just read that Russia has the upper hand on kit and tactics?
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Where’s the big Russian offensive this year? Was expecting it once the winter ended. Is he short on bodies? Haven’t followed it too closely.
The Russian "offensive" is just continuing as was. Taking out Ukraine manpower and machines has been the aim. Hence the slaughter of Ukraines in Atremivsk (Bakhmut when In Ukraine) has been perfect for that plan. Deffo at a manpower cost to the Wagner, but less than Ukraines.
Russia has gained another 100 to 150k troops, on top of the previous 350k. Most apparently waiting for any Ukraine attack in the south. Makes sense to let them attack as will be more expensive for them that way. They are under pressure from NATO to attack, not sure its a wise move.
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Did I just read that Russia has the upper hand on kit and tactics?
Nice that Comical Ali has found something to fill the time since the Iraq war I guess BST
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The spokesman of the Ukrainian Air Force, Yuriy Ignat, says that Ukraine will receive several dozen F-16s.
He also confirmed that they will be transferred to Ukraine in squadrons (12+ planes) at a time and that no donor country will make any individual transfers.
Guess we will soon see how Russia's 'superior kit' fairs against them.
https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1660369091717201920
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What I get get by head round is how does it end ?
Regime change in Russia?
Nuclear war ?
Ukraine giving up crimea and donbass?
Russia giving up crimea and donbass?
All seem as unlikely as each other
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Regime change in Russia. That's how it ends. When it turns out the Emperor has no clothes.
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Did I just read that Russia has the upper hand on kit and tactics?
Looking at most of your comments, including today's, Ukraine's propoganda kit is working well on some green matter.
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What I get get by head round is how does it end ?
Regime change in Russia?
Nuclear war ?
Ukraine giving up crimea and donbass?
Russia giving up crimea and donbass?
All seem as unlikely as each other
All wars end in a negotiated peace. The fighting gives you more leverage as to gaining what you want in the negotiations.
Only Putin can end this one - because only he started it. What does he want and how long will he carry on in an attempt to get it? And how long will the Russian people let him try? Your answer to these questions is as good as mine.
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First confirmed action of local Russian anti-Putin milita/freedom groups, the Russian Volunteer Corps and the Freedom of Russia Legion, attacking & defeating Russian troops in Russia.
That was how the end of WW1 began in Russia.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1660722675331768338
https://www.newsweek.com/putin-defectors-freedom-russia-legion-ukraine-belgorod-war-1801786
https://inews.co.uk/news/world/freedom-of-russia-legion-invasion-belgorod-2357297
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Wagner are withdrawing before they get surrounded, the Russian troops replacing them will surrender or die
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First confirmed action of local Russian anti-Putin milita/freedom groups, the Russian Volunteer Corps and the Freedom of Russia Legion, attacking & defeating Russian troops in Russia.
That was how the end of WW1 began in Russia.
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1660722675331768338
https://www.newsweek.com/putin-defectors-freedom-russia-legion-ukraine-belgorod-war-1801786
https://inews.co.uk/news/world/freedom-of-russia-legion-invasion-belgorod-2357297
Don't forget, Russia is running out of missiles and shells, in fact ran out in August. Now they're fighting with shovels. And Ukraine has not lost any territory, is gaining it all the time. Russia doesn't have any army left, they all got shot or ran away. And Ukraine has HIMARS, Storm Shaddows, M777s, Bradley's, Challengers, Leopards and now F16s.
I forgot to mention the Patriots :lol:
It's already won this war 20 times over. Oh and everyone loves Zelensky, especially those pulling his strings.
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Wagner are withdrawing before they get surrounded, the Russian troops replacing them will surrender or die
They're a PMC, job done, contract over. Chill time, be back for another city/operation soon.
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What I get get by head round is how does it end ?
Regime change in Russia?
Nuclear war ?
Ukraine giving up crimea and donbass?
Russia giving up crimea and donbass?
All seem as unlikely as each other
All wars end in a negotiated peace. The fighting gives you more leverage as to gaining what you want in the negotiations.
Only Putin can end this one - because only he started it. What does he want and how long will he carry on in an attempt to get it? And how long will the Russian people let him try? Your answer to these questions is as good as mine.
Although there were a couple of attempts at peace last year, Turkey initiated, and Israeli, both scuppered by a pumped up US, UK.
Not so sure Russia would concede nearly so much now as then, probably taking all east of the Dneiper, plus Odessa region as a minimum, then they'll be conditions re NATO, etc etc.
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Putin had only two ways to win this war.
1) Hit Ukraine hard right at the start, overrun Kyiv and replace the Govt with a puppet.
Or
2) Hope that Europe would fold when he cut off gas and put pressure on Kyiv to surrender.
He f**ked up on both.
Once he'd committed to a massive invasion, together with obliteratiln of cities and the war crimes that would inevitably go with it, he could not be allowed to win.
Europe and the USA cannot allow that sort of action inside Europe to succeed or be seen to succeed.
Putin comes out of this badly weakened at best, having lost the aura of invincibility he once had. The most likely outcome from that position is that he will be got rid of by the likes of Prizhogin looking to replace him.
The nuclear threat was never remotely credible, especially once Xi had told him that it wasn't acceptable to even suggest it seriously.
It's just a matter of time now. His forces have exhausted themselves and been bled white at Bakhmut. When they are hit hard later this year, expect them to disintegrate.
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Putin had only two ways to win this war.
1) Hit Ukraine hard right at the start, overrun Kyiv and replace the Govt with a puppet.
Or
2) Hope that Europe would fold when he cut off gas and put pressure on Kyiv to surrender.
He f**ked up on both.
Once he'd committed to a massive invasion, together with obliteratiln of cities and the war crimes that would inevitably go with it, he could not be allowed to win.
Europe and the USA cannot allow that sort of action inside Europe to succeed or be seen to succeed.
Putin comes out of this badly weakened at best, having lost the aura of invincibility he once had. The most likely outcome from that position is that he will be got rid of by the likes of Prizhogin looking to replace him.
The nuclear threat was never remotely credible, especially once Xi had told him that it wasn't acceptable to even suggest it seriously.
It's just a matter of time now. His forces have exhausted themselves and been bled white at Bakhmut. When they are hit hard later this year, expect them to disintegrate.
Hmmmm.... Invincible Ukraine is it? Seems the deaths and loss of equipment, failure of equipment is not looking good for Ukraine. The cost for the west is huge. So what to choose? Better health care, less extreme poverty, better education for millions in the UK or killing hundreds of thousands as part of some geopolitical power struggle on behalf of the elites. Let me think?
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"Hmmmm.... Invincible Ukraine is it? Seems the deaths and loss of equipment, failure of equipment is not looking good for Ukraine. The cost for the west is huge. So what to choose? Better health care, less extreme poverty, better education for millions in the UK or killing hundreds of thousands as part of some geopolitical power struggle on behalf of the elites. Let me think?"
BRR getting the jitters already.. Putin's f*cked.
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Putin had only two ways to win this war.
1) Hit Ukraine hard right at the start, overrun Kyiv and replace the Govt with a puppet.
Or
2) Hope that Europe would fold when he cut off gas and put pressure on Kyiv to surrender.
He f**ked up on both.
Once he'd committed to a massive invasion, together with obliteratiln of cities and the war crimes that would inevitably go with it, he could not be allowed to win.
Europe and the USA cannot allow that sort of action inside Europe to succeed or be seen to succeed.
Putin comes out of this badly weakened at best, having lost the aura of invincibility he once had. The most likely outcome from that position is that he will be got rid of by the likes of Prizhogin looking to replace him.
The nuclear threat was never remotely credible, especially once Xi had told him that it wasn't acceptable to even suggest it seriously.
It's just a matter of time now. His forces have exhausted themselves and been bled white at Bakhmut. When they are hit hard later this year, expect them to disintegrate.
Hmmmm.... Invincible Ukraine is it? Seems the deaths and loss of equipment, failure of equipment is not looking good for Ukraine. The cost for the west is huge. So what to choose? Better health care, less extreme poverty, better education for millions in the UK or killing hundreds of thousands as part of some geopolitical power struggle on behalf of the elites. Let me think?
Lucky the deaths, loss of equipment, failure of equipment and cost of the war to Russia isn't a problem then.
Of course we should just stand back and let fascist imperialists do what they want. Think of all that Russian money locked up in the City.
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20,000 Russian dead at Bakhmut. Almost beyond belief, the scale of the carnage they have experienced, to gain a few km of land.
Put it in perspective. The USSR forces had 15,000 deaths in ten years in the invasion and occupation of Aghanistan.
America had 36,000 deaths in the entire Korean War and 58,000 in the entire Vietnam War.
Russia has thrown away 20,000 lives in a meat grinder that they are going to end up running away from. Just horrific.
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20,000 Russian dead at Bakhmut. Almost beyond belief, the scale of the carnage they have experienced, to gain a few km of land.
Put it in perspective. The USSR forces had 15,000 deaths in ten years in the invasion and occupation of Aghanistan.
America had 36,000 deaths in the entire Korean War and 58,000 in the entire Vietnam War.
Russia has thrown away 20,000 lives in a meat grinder that they are going to end up running away from. Just horrific.
Have you got a link for the Casualty Rates? Russians do not disclose their figures
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That single Soviet T-34 tank from the Stalin era that was rolled into Red Square as the highlight of the Moscow Victory Parade looked a fearsome piece of kit.
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That single Soviet T-34 tank from the Stalin era that was rolled into Red Square as the highlight of the Moscow Victory Parade looked a fearsome piece of kit.
Reminds of back in 1990 when Bush (Snr) and Gorbachov were constantly proposing new ever decreasing limits to NATO And Warsaw Pact tanks in Europe, and both sides eventually had to dispose of many tanks. The Americans removed all oil and other Pollutants and dropped them in the Baja California where apparently they have greatly benefited coral reefs. The Russians on the other hand put many up for sale for private buyers in the West, with adverts in newspapers, A T-34 would have cost £9000 to you or I :lol:
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that reminds me of this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD6qdzQvHhE
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20,000 Russian dead at Bakhmut. Almost beyond belief, the scale of the carnage they have experienced, to gain a few km of land.
Put it in perspective. The USSR forces had 15,000 deaths in ten years in the invasion and occupation of Aghanistan.
America had 36,000 deaths in the entire Korean War and 58,000 in the entire Vietnam War.
Russia has thrown away 20,000 lives in a meat grinder that they are going to end up running away from. Just horrific.
What were the Ukraine deaths?
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20,000 Russian dead at Bakhmut. Almost beyond belief, the scale of the carnage they have experienced, to gain a few km of land.
Put it in perspective. The USSR forces had 15,000 deaths in ten years in the invasion and occupation of Aghanistan.
America had 36,000 deaths in the entire Korean War and 58,000 in the entire Vietnam War.
Russia has thrown away 20,000 lives in a meat grinder that they are going to end up running away from. Just horrific.
What were the Ukraine deaths?
Go find out yourself Igor.
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20,000 Russian dead at Bakhmut. Almost beyond belief, the scale of the carnage they have experienced, to gain a few km of land.
Put it in perspective. The USSR forces had 15,000 deaths in ten years in the invasion and occupation of Aghanistan.
America had 36,000 deaths in the entire Korean War and 58,000 in the entire Vietnam War.
Russia has thrown away 20,000 lives in a meat grinder that they are going to end up running away from. Just horrific.
What were the Ukraine deaths?
As ever. Totally missing the moral point.
But, to indulge you, Prizhogin himself considers this to be an absolute disaster. However many Ukrainian's they have killed (spoiler alert - anyone outside the Kremlin and the parts of the Internet you surf estimates they are a small percentage of the Russian losses) Prizhogin reckons it's been a disaster for Russia and an existential threat to Putin.
But at least you're no longer questioning the Russian losses, so there's hope for everyone. All you need to do now is to reflect on how disgusting the Russian strategy has been. I won't hold my breath.
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20,000 Russian dead at Bakhmut. Almost beyond belief, the scale of the carnage they have experienced, to gain a few km of land.
Put it in perspective. The USSR forces had 15,000 deaths in ten years in the invasion and occupation of Aghanistan.
America had 36,000 deaths in the entire Korean War and 58,000 in the entire Vietnam War.
Russia has thrown away 20,000 lives in a meat grinder that they are going to end up running away from. Just horrific.
What were the Ukraine deaths?
As ever. Totally missing the moral point.
But, to indulge you, Prizhogin himself considers this to be an absolute disaster. However many Ukrainian's they have killed (spoiler alert - anyone outside the Kremlin and the parts of the Internet you surf estimates they are a small percentage of the Russian losses) Prizhogin reckons it's been a disaster for Russia and an existential threat to Putin.
But at least you're no longer questioning the Russian losses, so there's hope for everyone. All you need to do now is to reflect on how disgusting the Russian strategy has been. I won't hold my breath.
Still feeding from the crumbs of Western propaganda I see.
True levels of casualties poss never will be known, at least for some time. But dies seem that Ukraine's suffered way more, pouring endless battalions into the kill zone, mainly to prop up the instruction from the Zelensky dictate to hold Bakhmut whatever. Crazy stuff.
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"... and the Russians are dying, this is the best money we have ever spent".
War is evil, messed up, sick, but this guy takes it to another level. A yank gangster, no surprise is it. Someone who's behind that "defensive alliance" they're part of.
https://youtu.be/R8ejPbK99B0
About 25 secs in.
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"... and the Russians are dying, this is the best money we have ever spent".
War is evil, messed up, sick, but this guy takes it to another level. A yank gangster, no surprise is it. Someone who's behind that "defensive alliance" they're part of.
https://youtu.be/R8ejPbK99B0
About 25 secs in.
Remind me again. Who started this war?
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"... and the Russians are dying, this is the best money we have ever spent".
War is evil, messed up, sick, but this guy takes it to another level. A yank gangster, no surprise is it. Someone who's behind that "defensive alliance" they're part of.
https://youtu.be/R8ejPbK99B0
About 25 secs in.
Which side keeps threatening nukes and who’s nut jobs want to nuke England?
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NATO!
EU!
Duh!
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So it's okay to have a desire to kill people of another nation? That desire by such as this guy has nothing to do with a war. Its been a desire of many, in the US especially, to engage Russia like this for decades. And engage via proxies rather than losing American lives.
Who started it? Is it about who pulled the first trigger, is it about who riled the trigger puller? Bunch of greedy elites on both sides started it, ordinary folk lured into doing their dirty business for them. Others lured into cheering them on from the sidelines. Mostly the poor all over losing out financially, health wise. Not sure why most here are in favour of all that, mainly by being in the Billy blinkers brigade I suppose.
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NATO!
EU!
Duh!
Whoosh....
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Russia bombs Kyiv Russia calls its servicemen hero’s, Ukraine allegedly bombs Moscow, Russia calls Ukraine terrorists, figure that one out
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BRR will explain it for us, Filo.
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BRR will explain it for us, Filo.
I look forward to the next figment of his imagination
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Russia bombs Kyiv Russia calls its servicemen hero’s, Ukraine allegedly bombs Moscow, Russia calls Ukraine terrorists, figure that one out
What does Ukraine call its bombing servicemen? And what does it call Russia's?
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#bothsides
Do you REALLY want to do this equating thing?
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Russia bombs Kyiv Russia calls its servicemen hero’s, Ukraine allegedly bombs Moscow, Russia calls Ukraine terrorists, figure that one out
What does Ukraine call its bombing servicemen? And what does it call Russia's?
Irrelevant, the aggressor is crying because they are getting back what they have been doing for over a year
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Your logic there justifies NATO/Ukraine war crimes. Why so caught up in promoting the fake virtues of one side? Isn't that just a bit arse licky?
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Because you're so even handed in your assessment of this conflict, BRR.
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Your logic is like a husband viciously beating his wife night after night. Giving her black eyes. Breaking bones. Then the first time she slaps him back, jumping in and saying, "SEE! I told you she was violent."
It's REALLY f**king easy. Russia gets out of the sovereign country it invaded, and stops indiscriminately bombing cities hundreds of miles from the front, and the violence stops.
Bothsidesing this is beyond disgusting.
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Your logic there justifies NATO/Ukraine war crimes. Why so caught up in promoting the fake virtues of one side? Isn't that just a bit arse licky?
You should be ashamed of your comments
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Your logic is like a husband viciously beating his wife night after night. Giving her black eyes. Breaking bones. Then the first time she slaps him back, jumping in and saying, "SEE! I told you she was violent."
It's REALLY f**king easy. Russia gets out of the sovereign country it invaded, and stops indiscriminately bombing cities hundreds of miles from the front, and the violence stops.
Bothsidesing this is beyond disgusting.
So you approve of the US/NATO intervention?
There's no husband and wife in this. Poor analogy. Plus pitiful playing up the man beat up woman line. You calling Ukes girls? Are you saying this is a domestic? If so, are you saying there's no third party? Come on, use those braincells.
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I approve of what the people of Ukraine want.
They want EU membership so they are not economically controlled by Moscow.
They want NATO membership so they will no longer have to fear their cities being flattened and their kids carried off by a fascist thug.
What do YOU want?
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Bristol, my Ukrainian colleague is a wife, she has a family too who spend their lives in fear of russian soldiers turning up or a bomb landing on their bed in their sleep. There are many husband and wives in this who didn't ask for it. Just like the parents of children whose children were taking to Russia against their will.
Go and tell them it's all NATO's fault. Oh and whilst you're at it why not move to the great country of Russia?
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Tell you what BRR.
Defend this
https://twitter.com/Euan_MacDonald/status/1664372897387823105
Happening night after night. Zero military justification, even IF the overall war was justified.
Just a continuous attempt to crush and terrorise civilians.
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Putin needs to realise that the solution to his war is not rocket scientists.
https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1662158333564813326
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Why did the US and UK scupper peace talks well over a year ago?
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Tell you what BRR.
Defend this
https://twitter.com/Euan_MacDonald/status/1664372897387823105
Happening night after night. Zero military justification, even IF the overall war was justified.
Just a continuous attempt to crush and terrorise civilians.
Defend what?
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Putin needs to realise that the solution to his war is not rocket scientists.
https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1662158333564813326
What should Biden think is the solution to his war?
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Putin needs to realise that the solution to his war is not rocket scientists.
https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1662158333564813326
What should Biden think is the solution to his war?
Probably the same as the rest of the free world, retreat to within his own borders
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Bristol, my Ukrainian colleague is a wife, she has a family too who spend their lives in fear of russian soldiers turning up or a bomb landing on their bed in their sleep. There are many husband and wives in this who didn't ask for it. Just like the parents of children whose children were taking to Russia against their will.
Go and tell them it's all NATO's fault. Oh and whilst you're at it why not move to the great country of Russia?
No, its not all NATOs fault, but they significantly contributed to the start of this war, albeit mainly the US with it's NATO cloak. To think it's only the Russians who caused this is naïve at best. To think that Ukraine hasn't been shelling civilians for many years is foolish. The propaganda screw in Ukraine is turned up high, people arrested for even posting videos of rocket attacks. Trust Zelensky any more than trusting Putin is just daft.
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Putin needs to realise that the solution to his war is not rocket scientists.
https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1662158333564813326
What should Biden think is the solution to his war?
Probably the same as the rest of the free world, retreat to within his own borders
But Biden has fuelled this war, massively. This war has been a US aim for decades. Biden could pull back all his arms and "advisors" behind his borders, as you suggest, and broker a peace, but he, as a puppet, is doing the opposite.
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Putin needs to realise that the solution to his war is not rocket scientists.
https://twitter.com/ChrisO_wiki/status/1662158333564813326
What should Biden think is the solution to his war?
Probably the same as the rest of the free world, retreat to within his own borders
But Biden has fuelled this war, massively. This war has been a US aim for decades. Biden could pull back all his arms and "advisors" behind his borders, as you suggest, and broker a peace, but he, as a puppet, is doing the opposite.
pulling western arms out of Ukraine gives Putin a free pass, you’re not that stupid I’m sure
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Here it comes.
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I just wonder once again whether June 6 will be a significant date in history.
Huge responsibility on Zelensky's shoulders to press the go button. The future on his nation and lives of his citizens rests on getting the timing right. I think they need to be satisfied they can suppress sufficient Russian artillery to be able to make significant and decisive break throughs
I had to laugh yesterday following the incursions into Russian territory of the Russian Volunteer force, they managed to broadcast on local radio there will be a local referendum to determine if the locals wanted to be absorbed into Ukraine. A brilliant windup.
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I think the answer is yes Baz. Hard to see how it's not the Russians blowing up that dam.
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Just bestial. This is Putin the low grade thug. This is what he does. He's an animal.
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I think the answer is yes Baz. Hard to see how it's not the Russians blowing up that dam.
It was already known the Russians had wired up explosives on the dam last year with quite a few articles at the time on the effect of flood damage including potentially doing more harm to Russian held territory.
We can only assume the vandal has conceded this territory including Crimea will be lost and hopes this act will slow up the Ukranian advance and just add to the list of wanton destruction
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The Russian disinformation campaign would be laughable if this wasn't so serious.
This from the BBC.
"Early this morning, the messaging out of Moscow seemed confused. One report by the state-owned Tass news agency quoted the Moscow-appointed mayor in Nova Kakhovka (where the dam was breached) as saying: “Everything’s quiet and peaceful. There’s nothing going on here at all.”"
He only had to add "I don't even know what water is. What IS water mate?" to rival the comic genius of Bottom.
https://youtu.be/v5p-YQkbe_s?t=96
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Meanwhile, this from the BBC also.
"They (the Kremlin) linked the alleged attack to Kyiv's counter-offensive, which Moscow claims is “faltering.” Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu claimed it was a tactic to provide cover for Ukraine to redeploy units for offensive operations."
I've seen a professor of War Studies today note that he is unaware of any use in the entire history of humanity of deliberate flooding of a battlefield by a force about to launch an attack. He notes that there are many examples of this being done to try to prevent or slow an attack.
But Russia still want to claim that Ukraine did this.
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Utter scum, it is unbelievable.
I haven’t posted in here as I don’t feel knowledgeable enough about something so serious.
But surely that big Russian bridge is now fair game to blow to pieces.
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Utter scum, it is unbelievable.
I haven’t posted in here as I don’t feel knowledgeable enough about something so serious.
But surely that big Russian bridge is now fair game to blow to pieces.
Might not need to use expensive ordnance on it.
https://medium.com/@snowythefirst/the-kerch-straits-road-bridge-concrete-supports-for-one-span-have-just-cracked-in-half-e5b7f2b95255
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Unfortunately, it's all too believable.
It's what Putin does. He picks his wars against enemies that he thinks he can batter into submission. And his main tactic is to flatten the infrastructure of his adversary. Indiscriminate destruction.
Look at what he did in Grozhy. And in Aleppo. And now in Kherson.
And there are still f**king idiots out there who think that if Ukraine gives in, Putin won't try to do this to Warsaw and Prague and,,,
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From sky...
The Russian government published a decree banning authorities from investigating accidents at hydrotechnical structures on 30 May - one week before the dam breach.
It specifies probes may not be conducted into "accidents" resulting from "military actions, sabotage and terrorist acts" until 2028.
The document related to the Kherson, Zaporizhzhia, Luhansk and Donetsk regions.
A translation of the document states: "Until 1 January, 2028, the technical investigation of accidents at dangerous production facilities and accidents of hydrotechnical structures, which occurred as a result of military actions, sabotage and terrorist acts, will not be conducted."
Add to this the highering of the water level over the past two weeks and it's blatantly obvious what's happened. Madness.
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Whilst the destruction of the dam has caused huge damage to the north of the river, it has actually caused greater damage to the southern, Russian occupied side. Reports that their stores & fortifications are under water and the troops are in a blind panic.
Seems they underestimated the force of water they were unleasing - and forgot that their bank is lower than the Ukrainian side.
https://twitter.com/AleksandrX13/status/1665985163547877377
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Experts are saying no artillery shell in the World could have done that much damage, everything points towards the Russians
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As said, it was well known the Russians had wired the dam in preparation for the first counteroffensive to cover their retreat and of course, to cause the maximum amount of devastation in their wake.
It's also thought they have planted explosives on the dam the holds the water for the cooling ponds at the nuclear power plant.
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Whilst the destruction of the dam has caused huge damage to the north of the river, it has actually caused greater damage to the southern, Russian occupied side. Reports that their stores & fortifications are under water and the troops are in a blind panic.
Seems they underestimated the force of water they were unleasing - and forgot that their bank is lower than the Ukrainian side.
https://twitter.com/AleksandrX13/status/1665985163547877377
Which does suggest that its not all clear that Russia did it. On balance, and especially looking at who benefits, it would appear Russia would be the most likely. However, a benefit to Ukraine is lowering the river upstream to make crossing it easier. They have been continually trying to for several months and lost a lot of troops in the process. That, and Ukraine apparently wanting to attack it with mines last year to trap Russians suggests its not as black and white as the pro western media try to say.
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As said, it was well known the Russians had wired the dam in preparation for the first counteroffensive to cover their retreat and of course, to cause the maximum amount of devastation in their wake.
It's also thought they have planted explosives on the dam the holds the water for the cooling ponds at the nuclear power plant.
Note 5 of the 6 reactors are shut down completely, no cooling needed. The 6th is still cooling somewhat and whilst it still needs to cool further, it's close to done.
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Experts are saying no artillery shell in the World could have done that much damage, everything points towards the Russians
As well as multiple mines floated down to it, multiple himars could also be responsible. As could previous wired mines from Ukraine, or even special forces mining it more recently.
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Whilst the destruction of the dam has caused huge damage to the north of the river, it has actually caused greater damage to the southern, Russian occupied side. Reports that their stores &amp; fortifications are under water and the troops are in a blind panic.
Seems they underestimated the force of water they were unleasing - and forgot that their bank is lower than the Ukrainian side.
https://twitter.com/AleksandrX13/status/1665985163547877377
Which does suggest that its not all clear that Russia did it. On balance, and especially looking at who benefits, it would appear Russia would be the most likely. However, a benefit to Ukraine is lowering the river upstream to make crossing it easier. They have been continually trying to for several months and lost a lot of troops in the process. That, and Ukraine apparently wanting to attack it with mines last year to trap Russians suggests its not as black and white as the pro western media try to say.
So you're arguing that there's a possibility that for the first time in recorded history, an attacking side has flooded an entire battlefield.
And you're saying that they've done that so they they can advance across 30 miles of sediment covered land upstream?
Whatever vestige of self respect you may have had has now evaporated. You are beyond embarrassment.
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Whilst the destruction of the dam has caused huge damage to the north of the river, it has actually caused greater damage to the southern, Russian occupied side. Reports that their stores &amp;amp; fortifications are under water and the troops are in a blind panic.
Seems they underestimated the force of water they were unleasing - and forgot that their bank is lower than the Ukrainian side.
https://twitter.com/AleksandrX13/status/1665985163547877377
Which does suggest that its not all clear that Russia did it. On balance, and especially looking at who benefits, it would appear Russia would be the most likely. However, a benefit to Ukraine is lowering the river upstream to make crossing it easier. They have been continually trying to for several months and lost a lot of troops in the process. That, and Ukraine apparently wanting to attack it with mines last year to trap Russians suggests its not as black and white as the pro western media try to say.
So you're arguing that there's a possibility that for the first time in recorded history, an attacking side has flooded an entire battlefield.
And you're saying that they've done that so they they can advance across 30 miles of sediment covered land upstream?
Whatever vestige of self respect you may have had has now evaporated. You are beyond embarrassment.
Do you know the details of how the Dnieper will be if a few metres lower? How that might benefit transportation of troops?
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Soldiers from the Russian 205th motorised brigade contacted home in late 2022 telling their relatives exactly what they were doing.
In October, a telegram from one Soldier tells how they are getting ready to mine the dam and in an intercepted video call from another soldier to his father? in December says they have mined the dam and plan to blow it if they have to retreat and referred to it as their 'leaving present".
Could this be manufactured evidence? Is it actual proof the Russians actually triggered the mines? Of course not but those investigating will be gathering this stuff.
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This image from the Beeb reportedly showing road damage on 2 June is interesting. Could be the damn had been partially weakened by previous something or other or was in need of repair?
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Have some self respect man.
The thought that a dam that has worked perfectly well for 70 years would suddenly, spontaneously collapse the very week that Ukraine's offensive starts! Grow up man.
The obvious issue with the road damage is that it was cut by the occupying troops to prevent any access by Ukraine SF while they were finishing the demolition charge placement.
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I swear if Putin dropped a nuke on Kyiv, there'd be useful idiots in the West saying "Well, let's analyse whether Ukraine did it themselves to gain an advantage. Or whether it was a natural event. And anyway, NATO is to blame."
What on earth will it take for some people to be jolted into seeing was a creature Putin is?
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I swear if Putin dropped a nuke on Kyiv, there'd be useful idiots in the West saying "Well, let's analyse whether Ukraine did it themselves to gain an advantage. Or whether it was a natural event. And anyway, NATO is to blame."
What on earth will it take for some people to be jolted into seeing was a creature Putin is?
"Come on you yellows"
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By the way, just across that river, t'other side of the dam, are Ukraine's with rifles, howitzer and missiles. Maybe not too wise to be standing on top of the dam with a target on you whilst hitting a concrete road with a shovel. Just a thought.
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According to some experts, previous fighting in August and November last year could have contributed.
“I think that structural failure resulting from the impact of earlier damage associated with the war remains a possibility,” says Mark Mulligan, professor of physical geography at University College London.
A second theory is that Russia, which controls the dam, deliberately allowed water levels to rise in the reservoir behind the dam – making a collapse more likely and more impactful.
According to analysis of satellite imagery, carried out by the US Foreign Agricultural Service, water levels rose sharply over the last few months.
“The very high level of water in the reservoir coupled with previous damage, leading to uncontrolled flows of water through the dam, could lead to catastrophic structural failure,” says Mulligan.
An out and out deliberate attack on this dam would not seem to benefit either side. So a combination of some or all of the above seems very plausible.
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I'm struggling to understand why an academic who deals with river flows would think himself a suitable person to speak to the media on structural engineering and war strategy.
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I'm struggling to understand why an academic who deals with rivet flows would think himself a suitable person to speak to the media on structural engineering and war strategy.
Though he may well be aware of river flows, including the build up mentioned. It make sense that Russia might have held back the flow as it gave them a potential weapon. Ukraine would have done the same. It was v strongly suggested that Ukraine would attack the dam with himars in order to inconvenience the Russian retreat from the North-East bank last year - indeed one reason why Russia moved sharpish.
I don't know what damage it did receive, don't recall any. But that pressure could easily have been the problem. As said, the flooding is not really great for either side's aims, and both sides had soldiers trapped in the floods.
Maybe your expertise should be offered, I'm sure the Mexborough Mail would be grateful.
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So an army in retreat blows up a dam to slow down advancing forces…check.
The result being hundreds of civilians have their homes flooded, are cut off from family & basic household needs….check.
The leader of the advancing force, (Zelensky) that countries President, goes to the site to ascertain the damage & what actual impact it has had on the citizens in the flooded areas of his territory…..check.
The leader (Putin) of the army who blew the dam does nothing except blame the advancing forces of blowing the dam…Mmm.
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Experts are saying no artillery shell in the World could have done that much damage, everything points towards the Russians
As well as multiple mines floated down to it, multiple himars could also be responsible. As could previous wired mines from Ukraine, or even special forces mining it more recently.
Experts looking at footage of one blast say the blast is upwards, so that blast would not be from missiles or shells, as the blast from those would be outwards.
Next theory please!
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Experts are saying no artillery shell in the World could have done that much damage, everything points towards the Russians
As well as multiple mines floated down to it, multiple himars could also be responsible. As could previous wired mines from Ukraine, or even special forces mining it more recently.
Experts looking at footage of one blast say the blast is upwards, so that blast would not be from missiles or shells, as the blast from those would be outwards.
Next theory please!
It woz 617 who dun it
Après moi le déluge
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Ukraine have an intercepted phone call From a Russian soldier to another man, he tells the other man that the Russian sabotage group blew up the dam, though it didn’t go to plan, it was only meant to scare people
Over to you BRR
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A dam is a massive structure - widening toward the base. To destroy such a thing a mine would need to be placed in contact with the dam at depth within the water. A blast near the surface might cause the crest to crumble but it wouldn't result in significant failure. If the mine were to explode within the water but remote from the face of the dam this would be unlikely to result in significant damage - the surrounding water would cushion the explosion. The combination of the weight of deep water and an explosion against the face of the dam would be the trigger to destroy the dam. I doubt missiles or shells would be effective in destroying the dam - you would either need a precisely placed bomb (aka Dambusters!!) or a mine located at a particular position. It seems the dam was located in Russian controlled territory so who might have the best opportunity to place such a device I wonder?
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Ukraine have an intercepted phone call From a Russian soldier to another man, he tells the other man that the Russian sabotage group blew up the dam, though it didn’t go to plan, it was only meant to scare people
Over to you BRR
‘Only meant to blow the bloody doors off’ :(
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The dam had big internal hydroelectric turbine halls. If you're going to blow up a dam that size, it's far more effective to do it by getting explosives inside the structure.
Ockham's Razor. Look for the obvious answer on who had easiest access, most to gain tactically and least to lose strategically. All points one way.
But some folk will still bothsides this.
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Interesting escalation being talked about.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/07/nato-members-may-send-troops-to-ukraine-warns-former-alliance-chief
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I can't see the first hand reports, not looked much, but no reason to doubt it - it is said that the Ukraine Minister of Defence today said the Ukrainians may be ready to sign/negotiate a peace agreement with the Russians if they change the aims of their SMO. I'd assume that included not demilitarising Ukraine, and allowing them to join NATO and EU.
I can't see Russia agreeing to that, not nearly, not least due to the past record with Ukraine and agreements, eg Minsk. Meanwhile, you have to ask yourself why they would be wanting to do this? There's no doubt it would include at least accepting all current Russian territory belongs to them. The immediate motivation could be their huge losses in the current attacks. Longer term, to gain strength, plus use NATO as a buffer, to restart the war. We'll see.
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The dam had big internal hydroelectric turbine halls. If you're going to blow up a dam that size, it's far more effective to do it by getting explosives inside the structure.
Ockham's Razor. Look for the obvious answer on who had easiest access, most to gain tactically and least to lose strategically. All points one way.
But some folk will still bothsides this.
But it doesn't all point one way. Russia would have benefitted more by waiting for Ukraine to have more troops in the flood zone. Ukraine has since moved troops to the more active frontline. Both sides had some troops in the flood zone, neither seemed prepared to evacuate. It dies currently suggest an accident of some kind. Though of course that won't satisfy the reactive, jump to dogmatic conclusions folks on this. "come on you yellows!" "pen ref!" "cheats" etc etc
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The dam had big internal hydroelectric turbine halls. If you're going to blow up a dam that size, it's far more effective to do it by getting explosives inside the structure.
Ockham's Razor. Look for the obvious answer on who had easiest access, most to gain tactically and least to lose strategically. All points one way.
But some folk will still bothsides this.
But it doesn't all point one way. Russia would have benefitted more by waiting for Ukraine to have more troops in the flood zone. Ukraine has since moved troops to the more active frontline. Both sides had some troops in the flood zone, neither seemed prepared to evacuate. It dies currently suggest an accident of some kind. Though of course that won't satisfy the reactive, jump to dogmatic conclusions folks on this. "come on you yellows!" "pen ref!" "cheats" etc etc
Detonating explosives is not an accident
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https://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-and-europe/2018/05/10/full-report-russian-officers-militants-identified-perpetrators-january-2015-mariupol-artillery-strike/
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The dam had big internal hydroelectric turbine halls. If you're going to blow up a dam that size, it's far more effective to do it by getting explosives inside the structure.
Ockham's Razor. Look for the obvious answer on who had easiest access, most to gain tactically and least to lose strategically. All points one way.
But some folk will still bothsides this.
But it doesn't all point one way. Russia would have benefitted more by waiting for Ukraine to have more troops in the flood zone. Ukraine has since moved troops to the more active frontline. Both sides had some troops in the flood zone, neither seemed prepared to evacuate. It dies currently suggest an accident of some kind. Though of course that won't satisfy the reactive, jump to dogmatic conclusions folks on this. &quot;come on you yellows!&quot; &quot;pen ref!&quot; &quot;cheats&quot; etc etc
Detonating explosives is not an accident
If that happened, who detonated them?
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The dam had big internal hydroelectric turbine halls. If you're going to blow up a dam that size, it's far more effective to do it by getting explosives inside the structure.
Ockham's Razor. Look for the obvious answer on who had easiest access, most to gain tactically and least to lose strategically. All points one way.
But some folk will still bothsides this.
But it doesn't all point one way. Russia would have benefitted more by waiting for Ukraine to have more troops in the flood zone. Ukraine has since moved troops to the more active frontline. Both sides had some troops in the flood zone, neither seemed prepared to evacuate. It dies currently suggest an accident of some kind. Though of course that won't satisfy the reactive, jump to dogmatic conclusions folks on this. &amp;quot;come on you yellows!&amp;quot; &amp;quot;pen ref!&amp;quot; &amp;quot;cheats&amp;quot; etc etc
Detonating explosives is not an accident
If that happened, who detonated them?
Ok, so you have gone from saying it was hit by multiple HIMARS to being an accident, I think you know who detonated the explosives, like the rest of us know
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I said there were many possibilities. I don't know what happened. Some here are fixated on limited possibilities. Maybe we'll never know.
Meanwhile, significant issues I posted about above are far more important to watch.
1) talk of NATO troops being sent to Ukraine
2) Ukraine looking like it's prepared to concede significant territory in a peace deal. A massive u turn, coincidently (?) coming immediately after a disastrous offensive over recent days.
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Interesting escalation being talked about.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/07/nato-members-may-send-troops-to-ukraine-warns-former-alliance-chief
I would be wary of any ‘Goodwill’ from Poland if I was in the Ukraine Government, just look at a map of Poland in 1939!
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I said there were many possibilities. I don't know what happened. Some here are fixated on limited possibilities. Maybe we'll never know.
Meanwhile, significant issues I posted about above are far more important to watch.
1) talk of NATO troops being sent to Ukraine
2) Ukraine looking like it's prepared to concede significant territory in a peace deal. A massive u turn, coincidently (?) coming immediately after a disastrous offensive over recent days.
'a disastrous offensive over recent days'
Ukrainian troops make significant advance on a 20km front towards Melitopol. The entire Russian front line defences collapse and are over-run.
Significant fighting (partisan/Special Ops?) reported in Melitopol itself. The two main rail lines into/out of the city are cut. Thus meaning the only way of supplying Crimea is by the Kerch bridge (which has already been damaged once).
If the Ukranians reach Melitopol then they will cut the land bridge between Russia and Crimea. Which means the Russian troops in that area will be almost cut-off.
There are a few maps and video clips of the fighting/advances on this feed:
https://twitter.com/Tendar/status/1667648741740892161
'a disastrous offensive over recent days'
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It's impossible Wilts.
He's steeped in Kremlin propaganda.
Look at last year's Ukraine offensive.
1) The offensive isn't happening.
2) When it does happen, Ukraine are losing heavily.
3) When the Russian forces get routed, it's an orderly, planned retreat to give Russia a better position.
4) When even Russian commentators admit they were routed, the war is all the fault of NATO.
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Meanwhile, the Kremlin has told Wagner troops that they are required to be transferred to standard Russian army units. Prigozhin has insisted this won't happen. Fun times ahead.
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Russians able to redeploy troops from Kherson area due to reduced risk of offensive, in the flooded area, to reinforce the other area where the counteroffensive has started.. Russia has the advantage being dug in and covered by artillery so air support is much needed to wipe those positions out.
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Russians able to redeploy troops from Kherson area due to reduced risk of offensive, in the flooded area, to reinforce the other area where the counteroffensive has started.. Russia has the advantage being dug in and covered by artillery so air support is much needed to wipe those positions out.
They can redeploy all the troops they like if they have no way of supplying them. 20km of those dug in positions have been wiped out. And the Ukranians are heading for the main defensive line fairly rapidly:
https://twitter.com/RALee85/status/1667940048699011072
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It appears that one unit of Russians in the NW of that area could have problems with supply or could get cut off, but otherwise there's no issue. These forward troops are relatively small units spotting Ukraine troop movements, guiding drones, equipped with atgm.
From your sources WR, over the last week, how many troops, vehicles, tanks incl. Leopards do you think Ukraine has lost?
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Whatever he puts will be way lower that any figure you come up with
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It appears that one unit of Russians in the NW of that area could have problems with supply or could get cut off, but otherwise there's no issue. These forward troops are relatively small units spotting Ukraine troop movements, guiding drones, equipped with atgm.
From your sources WR, over the last week, how many troops, vehicles, tanks incl. Leopards do you think Ukraine has lost?
First it was a 'diastarous offensive' now there are just 'small units'. No idea how much kit Ukraine has lost to these 'small units' that were quickly over-run. Certainly not enough to stop them gaining 100sqkm in 3 days. How many troops, vehicles, tanks, ammo + supply depots has Russia lost?
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It appears that one unit of Russians in the NW of that area could have problems with supply or could get cut off, but otherwise there's no issue. These forward troops are relatively small units spotting Ukraine troop movements, guiding drones, equipped with atgm.
From your sources WR, over the last week, how many troops, vehicles, tanks incl. Leopards do you think Ukraine has lost?
Because you obviously feel you already know this information why don't we make it a bit more interesting and add the Russian losses over the same period.
What do we end up with? is it a net loss or gain in the Ukraine forces favour, in your own time.
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It appears that one unit of Russians in the NW of that area could have problems with supply or could get cut off, but otherwise there's no issue. These forward troops are relatively small units spotting Ukraine troop movements, guiding drones, equipped with atgm.
From your sources WR, over the last week, how many troops, vehicles, tanks incl. Leopards do you think Ukraine has lost?
First it was a 'diastarous offensive' now there are just 'small units'. No idea how much kit Ukraine has lost to these 'small units' that were quickly over-run. Certainly not enough to stop them gaining 100sqkm in 3 days. How many troops, vehicles, tanks, ammo + supply depots has Russia lost?
It'll be far less than anyone else thinks
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Russian troops mining factories in occupied Crimea.
Clearly they think this is a bit more than a 'disastarous offensive' if they are planning to blow up the local infrastructure (including the a factory holding 200 tons of ammonia). The only reason to do that is because they believe they will loose this ground & dont want Ukraine to have them:
https://twitter.com/DionisCenusa/status/1668226783265554433
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NATO should make it clear that there will be grave consequences should any ammonia fall out land in a member Country
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Russian troops mining factories in occupied Crimea.
Clearly they think this is a bit more than a 'disastarous offensive' if they are planning to blow up the local infrastructure (including the a factory holding 200 tons of ammonia). The only reason to do that is because they believe they will loose this ground & dont want Ukraine to have them:
https://twitter.com/DionisCenusa/status/1668226783265554433
The Russians did the same thing during WW2 when they thought they were in the process of being overrun by the Nazis. burnt and destroyed any and all manufacturing and agriculture as they retreated into the interior.
It took them decades to start to recoup all these losses and but for the Soviet collapse in 89 they would still to this day be mortally damaged economically.
Seems they've decide to wish to commit virtual suicide again, only this time they wont have the luxury of flogging energy to a waiting West but have to scope out every despot and crank nation to sell too at a massive loss.
Suppose it will only hasten the time when the Nation will finally stand up for itself against a deluded despot, it will happen, eventually.
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Crackpot nations who in turn make a profit selling it on mmmmm!
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If the buyers of Putins energy are selling it on at a profit then that's a failure of a Weak west in ensuring its sanctions are adhered to throughout the world. The fact that European nations may be involved makes this doubly problematic for an organisation that talks from both sides of its face, usually at the same time.
The fact that at this moment in time Putin is failing to capitalise in these "profits" is just another kick in the knackers for the ailing despot.
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It appears that one unit of Russians in the NW of that area could have problems with supply or could get cut off, but otherwise there's no issue. These forward troops are relatively small units spotting Ukraine troop movements, guiding drones, equipped with atgm.
From your sources WR, over the last week, how many troops, vehicles, tanks incl. Leopards do you think Ukraine has lost?
First it was a 'diastarous offensive' now there are just 'small units'. No idea how much kit Ukraine has lost to these 'small units' that were quickly over-run. Certainly not enough to stop them gaining 100sqkm in 3 days. How many troops, vehicles, tanks, ammo + supply depots has Russia lost?
Probs not a fraction of Ukraine's losses, unless you're counting the drones that killed the Leopards. So you haven't a clue then. And gained three small villages so far. Not nearly at the first line of defence anyway.
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It appears that one unit of Russians in the NW of that area could have problems with supply or could get cut off, but otherwise there's no issue. These forward troops are relatively small units spotting Ukraine troop movements, guiding drones, equipped with atgm.
From your sources WR, over the last week, how many troops, vehicles, tanks incl. Leopards do you think Ukraine has lost?
First it was a 'diastarous offensive' now there are just 'small units'. No idea how much kit Ukraine has lost to these 'small units' that were quickly over-run. Certainly not enough to stop them gaining 100sqkm in 3 days. How many troops, vehicles, tanks, ammo + supply depots has Russia lost?
Probs not a fraction of Ukraine's losses, unless you're counting the drones that killed the Leopards. So you haven't a clue then. And gained three small villages so far. Not nearly at the first line of defence anyway.
I think you will find when you wrote that post it was 5 villages. It is now 7 (maybe 8?) - in this 'disasterous offensive'.
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Trouble is there's nothing left of the villages they are re taking, just rubble
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It has become a “MEAT GRINDER “ Russians have dug in which was always the Fait Accompli strategy, Ukraine should negotiate a Peace and the West use Sanctions as a negotiating tool!
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It has become a “MEAT GRINDER “ Russians have dug in which was always the Fait Accompli strategy, Ukraine should negotiate a Peace and the West use Sanctions as a negotiating tool!
No way has Ukraine come so far & endured so much to even contemplate that scenario.
I remember a piece from a Ukraine frontline commander sometime in April who said “This isn’t about Putin or Levensky, if they looked to broker a peace tomorrow we, we here on the frontline would ignore them & fight on because for ‘us’, this killing & dying is about retrieving & securing our land & borders for our children & their children”.
These people will literally fight to the death to regain the land Russia invaded & occupied.
How can you not feel humbled by such a cause.
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It has become a “MEAT GRINDER “ Russians have dug in which was always the Fait Accompli strategy, Ukraine should negotiate a Peace and the West use Sanctions as a negotiating tool!
No way has Ukraine come so far & endured so much to even contemplate that scenario.
I remember a piece from a Ukraine frontline commander sometime in April who said “This isn’t about Putin or Levensky, if they looked to broker a peace tomorrow we, we here on the frontline would ignore them & fight on because for ‘us’, this killing & dying is about retrieving & securing our land & borders for our children & their children”.
These people will literally fight to the death to regain the land Russia invaded & occupied.
How can you not feel humbled by such a cause.
Because it will be a pointless loss of a great number of lives, they will never re take the Donbas and Western countries are going to curtail funding in the near future
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The only Western Country I know of that would curtail funding the Ukrainian war would be a Donald Trump led USA.
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The only Western Country I know of that would curtail funding the Ukrainian war would be a Donald Trump led USA.
Well the UK has given £4.8 billion, that 6 new Hospitals down the pan!
You can’t slag the Government off whilst we have a blood vein open!
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The only Western Country I know of that would curtail funding the Ukrainian war would be a Donald Trump led USA.
Well the UK has given £4.8 billion, that 6 new Hospitals down the pan!
You can’t slag the Government off whilst we have a blood vein open!
A tiny bit of context.
The lost productivity growth we have had since the Austerity disaster tots up to about £2trn.
If you want to support Russia, be a big boy, stand up and support Russia.
Don't hide behind shit arguments like this.
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"shit arguments". Rather than moving to potty mouthisms you could point out the cost to the economy of the fuel crisis caused by the half baked sanctions, the cost of so many other aspects of this war to the economy and individuals, the cost of Boris Johnson going over to Kyiv to scupper the peace process.
The cost has been massive, and that cost goes on and on. Its a militarist, establishment, killing people argument you put BST, you're siding with war and aggression not peace.
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"shit arguments". Rather than moving to potty mouthisms you could point out the cost to the economy of the fuel crisis caused by the half baked sanctions, the cost of so many other aspects of this war to the economy and individuals, the cost of Boris Johnson going over to Kyiv to scupper the peace process.
The cost has been massive, and that cost goes on and on. Its a militarist, establishment, killing people argument you put BST, you're siding with war and aggression not peace.
Remind who the aggressor is, who invaded a sovereign Country?
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The only Western Country I know of that would curtail funding the Ukrainian war would be a Donald Trump led USA.
Well the UK has given £4.8 billion, that 6 new Hospitals down the pan!
You can’t slag the Government off whilst we have a blood vein open!
A tiny bit of context.
The lost productivity growth we have had since the Austerity disaster tots up to about £2trn.
If you want to support Russia, be a big boy, stand up and support Russia.
Don't hide behind shit arguments like this.
OH dear Billy !,,
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The only Western Country I know of that would curtail funding the Ukrainian war would be a Donald Trump led USA.
Well the UK has given £4.8 billion, that 6 new Hospitals down the pan!
You can’t slag the Government off whilst we have a blood vein open!
Is that hospitals that weren't really going to be built or existing ones on the list for a makeover?
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The only Western Country I know of that would curtail funding the Ukrainian war would be a Donald Trump led USA.
Well the UK has given £4.8 billion, that 6 new Hospitals down the pan!
You can’t slag the Government off whilst we have a blood vein open!
Is that hospitals that weren't really going to be built or existing ones on the list for a makeover?
Ha my dear departed Farther in law counted everything in Pints of Beer, I am merely using Hospitals
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The only Western Country I know of that would curtail funding the Ukrainian war would be a Donald Trump led USA.
Well the UK has given £4.8 billion, that 6 new Hospitals down the pan!
You can’t slag the Government off whilst we have a blood vein open!
Is that hospitals that weren't really going to be built or existing ones on the list for a makeover?
Ha my dear departed Farther in law counted everything in Pints of Beer, I am merely using Hospitals
Or around half an aircraft carrier (without aircraft) or half a Dreadnought submarine (2016 prices).
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The only Western Country I know of that would curtail funding the Ukrainian war would be a Donald Trump led USA.
Well the UK has given £4.8 billion, that 6 new Hospitals down the pan!
You can’t slag the Government off whilst we have a blood vein open!
Is that hospitals that weren't really going to be built or existing ones on the list for a makeover?
Ha my dear departed Farther in law counted everything in Pints of Beer, I am merely using Hospitals
Or around half an aircraft carrier (without aircraft) or half a Dreadnought submarine (2016 prices).
Approx 50 Tornado Jet Fighters! Oh by the way have we replenished the MOD stockpile since a great chunk of it was gifted to the Ukraine.
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&quot;shit arguments&quot;. Rather than moving to potty mouthisms you could point out the cost to the economy of the fuel crisis caused by the half baked sanctions, the cost of so many other aspects of this war to the economy and individuals, the cost of Boris Johnson going over to Kyiv to scupper the peace process.
The cost has been massive, and that cost goes on and on. Its a militarist, establishment, killing people argument you put BST, you're siding with war and aggression not peace.
Remind who the aggressor is, who invaded a sovereign Country?
Who was killing who within their own country?
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&amp;quot;shit arguments&amp;quot;. Rather than moving to potty mouthisms you could point out the cost to the economy of the fuel crisis caused by the half baked sanctions, the cost of so many other aspects of this war to the economy and individuals, the cost of Boris Johnson going over to Kyiv to scupper the peace process.
The cost has been massive, and that cost goes on and on. Its a militarist, establishment, killing people argument you put BST, you're siding with war and aggression not peace.
Remind who the aggressor is, who invaded a sovereign Country?
Who was killing who within their own country?
So you don’t want to remind us who the aggressor is?
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&amp;amp;quot;shit arguments&amp;amp;quot;. Rather than moving to potty mouthisms you could point out the cost to the economy of the fuel crisis caused by the half baked sanctions, the cost of so many other aspects of this war to the economy and individuals, the cost of Boris Johnson going over to Kyiv to scupper the peace process.
The cost has been massive, and that cost goes on and on. Its a militarist, establishment, killing people argument you put BST, you're siding with war and aggression not peace.
Remind who the aggressor is, who invaded a sovereign Country?
Who was killing who within their own country?
So you don’t want to remind us who the aggressor is?
Complex isn't it. Lots of internal politics, and murder. If you want to only look at external then you have a bunch of people and organisations and nations. The war was already in full swing way before any external troops interfered.
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&amp;amp;amp;quot;shit arguments&amp;amp;amp;quot;. Rather than moving to potty mouthisms you could point out the cost to the economy of the fuel crisis caused by the half baked sanctions, the cost of so many other aspects of this war to the economy and individuals, the cost of Boris Johnson going over to Kyiv to scupper the peace process.
The cost has been massive, and that cost goes on and on. Its a militarist, establishment, killing people argument you put BST, you're siding with war and aggression not peace.
Remind who the aggressor is, who invaded a sovereign Country?
Who was killing who within their own country?
So you don’t want to remind us who the aggressor is?
Complex isn't it. Lots of internal politics, and murder. If you want to only look at external then you have a bunch of people and organisations and nations. The war was already in full swing way before any external troops interfered.
It started firstly in 2014 when RUSSIA first invaded. There is only one country that is an obstacle to peace in the Ukraine and that is RUSSIA.
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Just when you thought you couldn't be shocked by the barbarity of the Russians.
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1670136975108587524
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Some Americans believed in the immediate post war period that a sensible foreign policy would be to obliterate the ussr in a nuclear attack. Not too sure that’s too insane atm
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Prighozin tells the truth about 2014 and the misinformation that they have been putting out ever since;
Kills BRR's argument for him;
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672177488535977984
Prigozhin released today a new interview going over the current state of affairs as well as looking back at the events preceding the start of the "SMO". In this first bit, he explains that the Donbas was plundered by Russians since 2014 and the 2022 war began for reasons very different from those advertised to the public.
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May well be nothing but there are rumours flying arounfcthe Wagner has instigated a coup attempt.
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A lot more than rumours - on Tass. Rostov-on-Don under martial law and all citizens told to stay inside.
Follows a massive Russian rocket attack on the Wagner training base.
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672312279646314496
https://twitter.com/tassagency_en/status/1672341031369560064
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672343773907484674
https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1672343803158577152
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672329766152675332
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I'm convinced Dmitri Peskov played for Rotherham in about 1986. That ratty tache. From choice...
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A lot more than rumours - on Tass. Rostov-on-Don under martial law and all citizens told to stay inside.
Follows a massive Russian rocket attack on the Wagner training base.
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672312279646314496
https://twitter.com/tassagency_en/status/1672341031369560064
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672343773907484674
https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1672343803158577152
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672329766152675332
This man usually has his finger on the pulse.
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1672339254335221761
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How many Wagner fighters were there, ? Surely Saterlite Technology will analyse the conflict. Between the Russian regular Forres and Wagner.it may even be a ploy to lure the Ukrainians into a Salient and Ambush, surely Russia has troops behind Wagner and a ton of Tanks Artillery and AirPower!
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Prosecutor General's Office of Russia- "Investigation Department of the FSB of Russia legally and reasonably initiated a criminal case against Prigozhin E.V. under Article 279 of the Criminal Code of the Russian Federation on the fact of organizing an armed rebellion."
Definately real. How realistic - we wait to see.
https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1672355444365377537
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FSB has launched a case against Prigozhin for "organizing an armed rebellion"
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How many Wagner fighters were there, ? Surely Saterlite Technology will analyse the conflict. Between the Russian regular Forres and Wagner.it may even be a ploy to lure the Ukrainians into a Salient and Ambush, surely Russia has troops behind Wagner and a ton of Tanks Artillery and AirPower!
Prigozhin says he has 25 000 and asked them all to mobilise (seems a bit of an overestimate to me). Unverified reports of a 50km Wagner convoy moving on Rostov (which seems widely over optimistic to me).
This is all behind the lines near Bakmut & on the Russian border. Miles away from where Ukraine is attacking and no chance they will ever go over the border to Rostov.
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A lot more than rumours - on Tass. Rostov-on-Don under martial law and all citizens told to stay inside.
Follows a massive Russian rocket attack on the Wagner training base.
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672312279646314496
https://twitter.com/tassagency_en/status/1672341031369560064
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672343773907484674
https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1672343803158577152
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672329766152675332
Interesting. I'm sure all will become clear. That first tweet has a vid that looks v fake. Yes, there does appear to be some tension between Wagner and the mainstream Russian military, tho no sign of anything more than has been for months. Dunno about the military presence in that Russian Town - could be any number of reasons.
Meanwhile, I wonder how far you think NATO will escalate things assuming Ukraine is not achieving much with its massive counter attack?
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I wondered how long it would be before BRR told us everything was under control and anyway...NATO.
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Meanwhile, here's the head of the entire Russian armed forces in Ukraine looking like he's pissed up, slurring an entreaty to Wagner troops.
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672357331663765504
But yeah. NATO.
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Seriously though BRR...where DO you formulate these ideas?
Yes, there does appear to be some tension between Wagner and the mainstream Russian military, tho no sign of anything more than has been for months.
For Christ's sake man. The FSB has launched action against Prigozhin for inciting armed rebellion! "Some tension"? "Nothing more than it's been for months"?
Do you have any awareness of how you are sounding here?
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Sorry to interrupt BST’s & BBR’s ‘personal war’ here but, could we actually be seeing the tide turning against Putin in a way inconceivable 18 months ago?!
Is ‘the rat’ being ‘chased’ into that dark corner where this time there is no escape?
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Nothing personal here. I'd tell any Kremlin fanboy who was spouting shite that they were spouting shite.
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Nothing personal here. I'd tell any Kremlin fanboy who was spouting shite that they were spouting shite.
So Yankee fanboy, are you thinking that vid is genuine?
I think it's far too reactive to come to any sense of what's currently happening re Wagner. But let's speculate away... What is the motivation of Prigozhin? Maybe he's been cornered with the Russian MOD tightening its grip on his freedoms, taking over the Wagner forces. Maybe he's been bought out by the US? Ukraine appears to be struggling militarily. The US is increasingly desperate for a way out of this conflict without losing face. One way they are accustomed to is regime change. Right now, this would fit perfectly, though very very desperately.
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https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/06/24/wagner-chief-says-he-is-inside-rostov-army-hq-controls-citys-military-sites-a81617
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We could be seeing the start of a Russian Civil War, it will probably depend on how quick Wagner moves, get to Moscow in the next 24 hours and things could get tasty in Russia and on the Frontline in Ukraine as military structures of the Russians crumble
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A lot more than rumours - on Tass. Rostov-on-Don under martial law and all citizens told to stay inside.
Follows a massive Russian rocket attack on the Wagner training base.
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672312279646314496
https://twitter.com/tassagency_en/status/1672341031369560064
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672343773907484674
https://twitter.com/AricToler/status/1672343803158577152
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672329766152675332
Interesting. I'm sure all will become clear. That first tweet has a vid that looks v fake. Yes, there does appear to be some tension between Wagner and the mainstream Russian military, tho no sign of anything more than has been for months. Dunno about the military presence in that Russian Town - could be any number of reasons.
Meanwhile, I wonder how far you think NATO will escalate things assuming Ukraine is not achieving much with its massive counter attack?
Meanwhile back in Putin propoganda land - it's fake and even if it isn't its all NATO's fault.
Thread here showing video of Prigozhin troops in control of Rostov-on-Don and moving onto Voronezh (halfway to Moscow).
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672480621539590145
This of course is fantastic news for Ukraine. However it should be concering for the rest of us. A civil war anywhere never goes well for the people in that country or the neighbouring ones. A civil war in a country with a massive nuclear arsenal - definately not a good thing.
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Putin has fed the Dog for years, and now the Dog has turned on him, never trust a Dog
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I did wonder last night if Prigozhin had just cracked after the attack on his own forces by the Russian regulars. Wondered if he had blundered into a trap.
But the speech from Putin is mad.
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672501207863115776
No "We have this under control and will easily take down the ten bob insurrectionists."
It looks like he's genuinely shitting it and is appealing for the army to stay onside.
Although of course, NATO may have faked the video. And the Wagner forces running up the motorway from Rostov.
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We could be seeing the start of a Russian Civil War, it will probably depend on how quick Wagner moves, get to Moscow in the next 24 hours and things could get tasty in Russia and on the Frontline in Ukraine as military structures of the Russians crumble
Rostov is something like 600 miles from Moscow, Filo, an army can't cover that distance in 24hrs unless they're all on transport and I suppose they will meet with resistance along the way.
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Also rumours that Lukashenko has fled Belarus
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Well Saterlite Intelligence is the key, as it was in the Falklands war for us, if there is a withdrawal of troops from the front line and a concerted advance by Wagner towards Moscow that will be evident and the Ukraine can capitalise, just been on News that Wagner has captured Voronets, 300 miles south of Moscow also reports of regular Army units either assisting Wagner or, standing aside for them!
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Re my last, Regular Units joining up with Wagner or standing aside!
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We could be seeing the start of a Russian Civil War, it will probably depend on how quick Wagner moves, get to Moscow in the next 24 hours and things could get tasty in Russia and on the Frontline in Ukraine as military structures of the Russians crumble
Rostov is something like 600 miles from Moscow, Filo, an army can't cover that distance in 24hrs unless they're all on transport and I suppose they will meet with resistance along the way.
Wagner units are already at Voronezh, 500km from Moscow. Not much further than Newcastle to London.
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Sounds like the Wagner mercenaries and their leaders have seen the light. Futile loss of their own comrades for the sole sake of pandering to their old hot headed Kremlin leaders . It’s a military coup in all but name . Interesting days ahead of they get the backing and support of the general public .
I do wonder is Pregozhin has been turned by Western Powers . A classic and very obvious espionage tactic. Attack the end my from
Within . Using its own people .
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This all goes back to the real reason Russia wanted Donbas and beyond, to plunder the mineral wealth of Ukraine and divi the spoils between the Oligarchs, under the guise of DeNazification. The plan wasn't supposed to include the mass killing of civilians or the huge losses of military personnel.
Whatever happens with this 'coup' and whoever controls the military, the objectives may remain the same in keeping hold of the Donbas etc.
How Ukraine and the West take advantage of this situation remains to be seen.
I would imagine the average Russian citizen won't have a clue what's going on and don't care as long as they can continue going about their 'normal' lives.
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Prigozhin wants peace with Ukraine and power in Moscow. This was always one potential endgame.
I'm certainly not saying the world would be a better place with him in the Kremlin. But it was a possibility from the moment Putin failed to win a quick victory.
Russian history is peppered with such examples.
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Russian Helicopters have opened fire on Wagner convoy, the situation is deteriorating quickly, is Putin getting desperate?
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Prigozhin wants peace with Ukraine and power in Moscow. This was always one potential endgame.
I'm certainly not saying the world would be a better place with him in the Kremlin. But it was a possibility from the moment Putin failed to win a quick victory.
Russian history is peppered with such examples.
Is Russia ultimately doomed to regress to a norm of autocracy / authoritarianism? If so, why is this?
The size of the country? Cold weather? Lack of of accessible coastline for trade?
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Prigozhin wants peace with Ukraine and power in Moscow. This was always one potential endgame.
I'm certainly not saying the world would be a better place with him in the Kremlin. But it was a possibility from the moment Putin failed to win a quick victory.
Russian history is peppered with such examples.
Does he want peace?
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If this doesn't get closed down very quickly then you'd imagine the snowball effect taking shape, when and after that point is reached then all bets will be off, absolutely anything could materialise.
Ive no faith in Prigozhin being any sort of medium to long term solution, it could get very messy, lets hope the Yanks have woken Biden and briefed him on what he now needs to consider?
I wonder if deals are actively taking place behind closed doors for Putin to just disappear into the ether?
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A flight left Moscow 10 minutes ago. There is speculation Putin was on board, the Kremlin reports he's still at work in Moscow.
Putin’s presidential plane took off from Moscow Vnukovo Airport at 2:16PM Moscow time (12:16PM BST) and then headed north-west.
According to data from the FlightRadar tracking website, the plane reached the Tver area - about 180km from Moscow and where Putin has a residence – before disappearing from the system.
It has not been possible to confirm whether Putin was on the plane and Putin’s spokesman Dmitry Peskov has told news agency TASS the president is “working in the Kremlin”.
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If this map of Wagner's advance is correct, Putin will be well advised to get out of Moscow.
https://twitter.com/KevinRothrock/status/1672607762272985088/photo/1
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If this map of Wagner's advance is correct, Putin will be well advised to get out of Moscow.
https://twitter.com/KevinRothrock/status/1672607762272985088/photo/1
Putins plane apparently left Moscow a couple of hours ago
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This is a truly scary development. There have always been questions about Putin’s mental state and what his ‘final act’ might look like.
That final act could be very, very close now.
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If Peskov says Putins in the Kremlin then that's definite he isn't! Cowardly bunker grandpa.
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This is a truly scary development. There have always been questions about Putin’s mental state and what his ‘final act’ might look like.
That final act could be very, very close now.
If you're talking about nukes, BR, I doubt that any of the generals involved in the deployment of such a move would obey that kind of order from Putin, as things are now.
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The bright spot for the Russian military campaign is they have finally managed to take a major city... It's a Russian city but still...
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The collapse of the Russian state begins…
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A rebel army wanting to remove an autocrat from his own autocracy?
The very collapse of Russia as we know it?
The worrying thing here is some months ago, Putin stated very clearly that a world without Russia, as he sees it, is not a World worth living in.
Worrying times ahead. Even more so.
Self implosion of a super power with nuclear arms. Not good.
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Prigozhin wants peace with Ukraine and power in Moscow. This was always one potential endgame.
I'm certainly not saying the world would be a better place with him in the Kremlin. But it was a possibility from the moment Putin failed to win a quick victory.
Russian history is peppered with such examples.
Interesting to think Prigozhin could end up as an Ally of the West.
He wants peace in Ukraine. I can see the west backing him. Peace in Ukraine. At the expense of him toppling Putin and taking power. Either as the overall new military commander, or perhaps president. Or both.
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Prigozhin wants peace with Ukraine and power in Moscow. This was always one potential endgame.
I'm certainly not saying the world would be a better place with him in the Kremlin. But it was a possibility from the moment Putin failed to win a quick victory.
Russian history is peppered with such examples.
Does he want peace?
Peace for the sake of power. At the moment he is seen by many world leaders as simply a commander of a rogue army.
But that could change if he is perceived as a peacekeeper on a global scale. And with that will come a huge change in how he is perceived.
And with that comes Power.
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Ukranian troops apparently crossing the Dnipro river at Kherson (this is a new front, been no fighting in this area as yet during the advance)
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672642236012544000
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Prigozhin wants peace with Ukraine and power in Moscow. This was always one potential endgame.
I'm certainly not saying the world would be a better place with him in the Kremlin. But it was a possibility from the moment Putin failed to win a quick victory.
Russian history is peppered with such examples.
Interesting to think Prigozhin could end up as an Ally of the West.
He wants peace in Ukraine. I can see the west backing him. Peace in Ukraine. At the expense of him toppling Putin and taking power. Either as the overall new military commander, or perhaps president. Or both.
Its irelevant what the west do. There aren't going to be NATO troops in Russia.
Will the Russian Army and the oligarchs back him? Because without either of those he will have no power. And wont be there very long.
Whoever controls the Army controls Russia. Always has done - always will do.
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Prigozhin wants peace with Ukraine and power in Moscow. This was always one potential endgame.
I'm certainly not saying the world would be a better place with him in the Kremlin. But it was a possibility from the moment Putin failed to win a quick victory.
Russian history is peppered with such examples.
Interesting to think Prigozhin could end up as an Ally of the West.
He wants peace in Ukraine. I can see the west backing him. Peace in Ukraine. At the expense of him toppling Putin and taking power. Either as the overall new military commander, or perhaps president. Or both.
Its irelevant what the west do. There aren't going to be NATO troops in Russia.
Will the Russian Army and the oligarchs back him? Because without either of those he will have no power. And wont be there very long.
Whoever controls the Army controls Russia. Always has done - always will do.
Who said anything about NATO troops in Ukraine, or Russia?
Backing takes many forms.
Money, influence, status, power. The lifting of sanctions by anyone linked to Wagner for instance.
These are all things that Prigozhin can be afforded by Western Powers without any NATO troops setting foot in Russia or Ukraine. And despite his reputation and previous misdemeanours, if it were to bring stability and peace in Ukraine then it’s a very real possibility.
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This is a truly scary development. There have always been questions about Putin’s mental state and what his ‘final act’ might look like.
That final act could be very, very close now.
If you're talking about nukes, BR, I doubt that any of the generals involved in the deployment of such a move would obey that kind of order from Putin, as things are now.
I hope you’re right.
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Ukranian troops apparently crossing the Dnipro river at Kherson (this is a new front, been no fighting in this area as yet during the advance)
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672642236012544000
And advanced in Donetsk to retake areas that have been under Russian control since 2014.
https://twitter.com/ChristopherJM/status/1672632377607180288
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Prigozhin wants peace with Ukraine and power in Moscow. This was always one potential endgame.
I'm certainly not saying the world would be a better place with him in the Kremlin. But it was a possibility from the moment Putin failed to win a quick victory.
Russian history is peppered with such examples.
Interesting to think Prigozhin could end up as an Ally of the West.
He wants peace in Ukraine. I can see the west backing him. Peace in Ukraine. At the expense of him toppling Putin and taking power. Either as the overall new military commander, or perhaps president. Or both.
Its irelevant what the west do. There aren't going to be NATO troops in Russia.
Will the Russian Army and the oligarchs back him? Because without either of those he will have no power. And wont be there very long.
Whoever controls the Army controls Russia. Always has done - always will do.
Who said anything about NATO troops in Ukraine, or Russia?
Backing takes many forms.
Money, influence, status, power. The lifting of sanctions by anyone linked to Wagner for instance.
These are all things that Prigozhin can be afforded by Western Powers without any NATO troops setting foot in Russia or Ukraine. And despite his reputation and previous misdemeanours, if it were to bring stability and peace in Ukraine then it’s a very real possibility.
This is all despite Prizoghin saying the reason he has turned on Putin is that he is not committing enough men and troops in Ukraine to defeat the Ukranian Army and that the war there will will continue is it? He wants MORE Russians' and Russian resources in Ukraine - not less.
https://apnews.com/article/putin-russia-ukraine-war-prigozhin-infighting-0e051f0a43522f57ef1810a8b03f6e62
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Wagner are returning to base
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Yep, all over. Lukashenko stepped in.
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Just heard a professor of Russian politics hypothesising this may have been a trick by Putin and Prigozhin to smoke out Kremlin I siders who weren't 100% with Putin
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Just heard a professor of Russian politics hypothesising this may have been a trick by Putin and Prigozhin to smoke out Kremlin I siders who weren't 100% with Putin
Nah, it was all NATO...
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PRUGOZHIN is a dead man walking now
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FFS
The collapse will come eventually
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PRUGOZHIN is a dead man walking now
Unless this really was a clever smoke out plot, Putin is the big loser here. He's been shown up for what he is. A low grade thug who can be taken on by any other lie grade thug who has the balls and the metal to do so.
Putin is chronically weakened by this. If he's had to sack two generals on Prigozhin's say so to avoid fighting, he's fatally wounded.
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PRUGOZHIN is a dead man walking now
Unless this really was a clever smoke out plot, Putin is the big loser here. He's been shown up for what he is. A low grade thug who can be taken on by any other lie grade thug who has the balls and the metal to do so.
Putin is chronically weakened by this. If he's had to sack two generals on Prigozhin's say so to avoid fighting, he's fatally wounded.
Dead right, BST. He's all wind and p*ss.
Nuclear war my arse.
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PRUGOZHIN is a dead man walking now
He’s being shipped to Belarus as part of the deal
It looks like he’s bottled it
Plutonium milkshake for him I reckon
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Let’s hope for the likes of Letchenkov, this thug Putin, is found somewhere hiding in a ‘hole’, all alone, with just his thoughts cramming in on him, total despair & utterly alone.
I want him in ‘a place’ where he knows he is not safe, just biding time.
I’m not a bad person. But for this man I would make the exception.
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Probably the best summary of events in Russia I have read:
One thing I like about this moment is that all the genuine Russia experts are “I dunno, it’s bloody mental, anything could happen, what the actual f**k?” while the online bullshit artists are 100% confident they know what’s going on and what will happen next.
https://twitter.com/hopisen/status/1672662319317278724
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You all calmed down yet? You can now sit back and continue watching, along with all the NATO leaders, NATO equipment getting wiped out across the front line.
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You all calmed down yet? You can now sit back and continue watching, along with all the NATO leaders, NATO equipment getting wiped out across the front line.
you seem to enjoy innocent people dying very strange
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You all calmed down yet? You can now sit back and continue watching, along with all the NATO leaders, NATO equipment getting wiped out across the front line.
you seem to enjoy innocent people dying very strange
Enjoy? It seems that's your projection. Putting people n equipment to get wiped out, that's the problem, both Russia and NATO are doing that.
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So it seems this was a ‘ruse de Guere ‘ possibly to lure the Ukraine army into a trap.
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You all calmed down yet? You can now sit back and continue watching, along with all the NATO leaders, NATO equipment getting wiped out across the front line.
you seem to enjoy innocent people dying very strange
Enjoy? It seems that's your projection. Putting people n equipment to get wiped out, that's the problem, both Russia and NATO are doing that.
No Russia is putting people and equipment into someone else's country. Ukraine are using what help they can get to defend their own country.
Russia goes home. End of.
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Could be a horrific issue on the horizon.
Reports that the Russians have mined the Zaporizhzha nuclear reactors and are planning to destroy them as a "look how f**king out of control we can be if you push us" scorched earth policy.
This would be by a million miles the biggest war crime in history.
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Could be a horrific issue on the horizon.
Reports that the Russians have mined the Zaporizhzha nuclear reactors and are planning to destroy them as a "look how f**king out of control we can be if you push us" scorched earth policy.
This would be by a million miles the biggest war crime in history.
So a humungus Nuclear cloud won’t drift over nearby Russia ?
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Well you see. There's this thing called the wind. And it blows in different directions on different days.
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Well you see. There's this thing called the wind. And it blows in different directions on different days.
Blow East.
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Could be a horrific issue on the horizon.
Reports that the Russians have mined the Zaporizhzha nuclear reactors and are planning to destroy them as a "look how f**king out of control we can be if you push us" scorched earth policy.
This would be by a million miles the biggest war crime in history.
They'll not do it, its just game theory they are playing.
The easiest way to win a game of chicken is to throw your steering wheel out of the car, and make sure your opponent sees you do it.
If they really wanted to blow it up, we wouldn't even know it was mined.
We didn't know the dam was mined
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Putin will be keeping a close eye on Carol Kirkwood’s warm front on Breakfast News tomorrow.
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Could be a horrific issue on the horizon.
Reports that the Russians have mined the Zaporizhzha nuclear reactors and are planning to destroy them as a "look how f**king out of control we can be if you push us" scorched earth policy.
This would be by a million miles the biggest war crime in history.
They'll not do it, its just game theory they are playing.
The easiest way to win a game of chicken is to throw your steering wheel out of the car, and make sure your opponent sees you do it.
If they really wanted to blow it up, we wouldn't even know it was mined.
Because you reckon Russia is that far ahead in intel sophistication?
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Could be a horrific issue on the horizon.
Reports that the Russians have mined the Zaporizhzha nuclear reactors and are planning to destroy them as a "look how f**king out of control we can be if you push us" scorched earth policy.
This would be by a million miles the biggest war crime in history.
They'll not do it, its just game theory they are playing.
The easiest way to win a game of chicken is to throw your steering wheel out of the car, and make sure your opponent sees you do it.
If they really wanted to blow it up, we wouldn't even know it was mined.
Because you reckon Russia is that far ahead in intel sophistication?
It's hardly sophisticated, pretty basic really.
Certainly wouldn't underestimate them though
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You all calmed down yet? You can now sit back and continue watching, along with all the NATO leaders, NATO equipment getting wiped out across the front line.
you seem to enjoy innocent people dying very strange
Enjoy? It seems that's your projection. Putting people n equipment to get wiped out, that's the problem, both Russia and NATO are doing that.
No Russia is putting people and equipment into someone else's country. Ukraine are using what help they can get to defend their own country.
Russia goes home. End of.
Point missed. NATO is giving lots of vehicles to Ukraine to put Ukraine's in who then get blown up. Russia is also putting people in the same situation. With the current massive counterattack, Ukraine is losing lots this way. We know Russia isn't going home, indeed it sees the current territories being fought in as home.
So I ask again, how far will NATO go given the most likely direction of all this as it stands?
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The point is that NATO are giving arms and equipment to a nation whose recognised borders were invaded and land annexed by an aggressive neighbour.
However you paint it Russia are in the wrong and should withdraw.
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Interesting development.
After 48 hours of shitting it, scuttling off to his private bunker and leaving the living cadaver Lukashenko to calm Prigozhin down, Putin has finally emerged.
Just released a pre-recorded video saying everything was under control all along, and that the legal case against Prigozhin isn't being dropped.
In which case, if I were Prigozhin, I'd come out throwing every punch I had left.
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Interesting development.
After 48 hours of shitting it, scuttling off to his private bunker and leaving the living cadaver Lukashenko to calm Prigozhin down, Putin has finally emerged.
Just released a pre-recorded video saying everything was under control all along, and that the legal case against Prigozhin isn't being dropped.
In which case, if I were Prigozhin, I'd come out throwing every punch I had left.
I don’t get why he pulled out, he must have known what would happen, if he hasn’t been killed already he’s a dead man walking
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Word is he never wanted to overthrow Putin. He wanted Putin to dismiss two generals. When Putin didn't, Prigozhin decided he didn't want the shit of a battle for Moscow and then him trying to hold together a broken state.
In simple terms, Prigozhin seems to have had a nervous breakdown at the immensity of what he was doing and grabbed at the offer from Lukashenko.
Only now, he would be crazy not to see that he is dead if he sits on his hands.
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Just watched the whole speech by Putin.
Really weird.
Peskov had teed it up, saying "This announcement will, without exaggeration, determine the future of Russia"
In fact, Putin ranted for a few minutes about traitors and patriotism, then appeared to get cut off. As though he had totally lost all sense of authority.
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The first ‘real tilt’ at Putin’s power that holds any form of gravitas & he heads for his bunker. F**k you Russian citizens, I’m alright.
The first ‘bully’ to push him & he runs off hiding.
Speaks volumes about him. More than all the volumes I have ever read about him.
He’s not the bogey man I thought he was. And if I’m thinking that, there will be many more within that ‘inner circle’ of his who are starting to look beyond as opposed to within.
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The first ‘real tilt’ at Putin’s power that holds any form of gravitas & he heads for his bunker. F**k you Russian citizens, I’m alright.
The first ‘bully’ to push him & he runs off hiding.
Speaks volumes about him. More than all the volumes I have ever read about him.
He’s not the bogey man I thought he was. And if I’m thinking that, there will be many more within that ‘inner circle’ of his who are starting to look beyond as opposed to within.
Bang on.
And after 48 hours of shiting it, the best he can do is ramble about being really cross at traitors who he has just let leave the country.
He's a busted flush.
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Well you see. There's this thing called the wind. And it blows in different directions on different days.
Here you go Billy, Ukrainian wind information:-
In the north, east, and south, the easterly and southeasterly winds prevail, in the west – northwesterly and westerly, while in the southwest – southerly and southeasterly.
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Well you see. There's this thing called the wind. And it blows in different directions on different days.
Here you go Billy, Ukrainian wind information:-
In the north, east, and south, the easterly and southeasterly winds prevail, in the west – northwesterly and westerly, while in the southwest – southerly and southeasterly.
Ok.
So draw some lines from Zaporizhzha and see where they go. (For the record, the forecast is westerly winds this week, so nothing imminent.)
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Well you see. There's this thing called the wind. And it blows in different directions on different days.
Here you go Billy, Ukrainian wind information:-
In the north, east, and south, the easterly and southeasterly winds prevail, in the west – northwesterly and westerly, while in the southwest – southerly and southeasterly.
Ok.
So draw some lines from Zaporizhzha and see where they go. (For the record, the forecast is westerly winds this week, so nothing imminent.)
Those Westerly winds, all part of the El Nato pattern.
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The first ‘real tilt’ at Putin’s power that holds any form of gravitas & he heads for his bunker. F**k you Russian citizens, I’m alright.
The first ‘bully’ to push him & he runs off hiding.
Speaks volumes about him. More than all the volumes I have ever read about him.
He’s not the bogey man I thought he was. And if I’m thinking that, there will be many more within that ‘inner circle’ of his who are starting to look beyond as opposed to within.
Indeed, and compare that to Zelenski, who under military bombardment for the last 18 months hasn't once run away.
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The first ‘real tilt’ at Putin’s power that holds any form of gravitas &amp; he heads for his bunker. F**k you Russian citizens, I’m alright.
The first ‘bully’ to push him &amp; he runs off hiding.
Speaks volumes about him. More than all the volumes I have ever read about him.
He’s not the bogey man I thought he was. And if I’m thinking that, there will be many more within that ‘inner circle’ of his who are starting to look beyond as opposed to within.
Indeed, and compare that to Zelenski, who under military bombardment for the last 18 months hasn't once run away.
He does seem to spend half his time outside Ukraine. Where is he when he is in Ukraine? It would be a stupid and irresponsible leader who wasn't hiding.
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That was a test for you, BRR and your response was exactly as expected. Well done.
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The first ‘real tilt’ at Putin’s power that holds any form of gravitas &amp;amp; he heads for his bunker. F**k you Russian citizens, I’m alright.
The first ‘bully’ to push him &amp;amp; he runs off hiding.
Speaks volumes about him. More than all the volumes I have ever read about him.
He’s not the bogey man I thought he was. And if I’m thinking that, there will be many more within that ‘inner circle’ of his who are starting to look beyond as opposed to within.
Indeed, and compare that to Zelenski, who under military bombardment for the last 18 months hasn't once run away.
He does seem to spend half his time outside Ukraine. Where is he when he is in Ukraine? It would be a stupid and irresponsible leader who wasn't hiding.
He didn't shite it and leave Kyiv, even when the Russia troops were on the outskirts.
Unlike Putin who ran off from Moscow when his old mate's forces were rolling up the M4.
Troll.
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Putin true to form.
He's got to lash out at somebody to prove what a man he is.
So Russia have fired a missile into a restaurant in a city miles behind the front line.
What a miserable, cowardly excuse for a human.
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https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1673760218608541696?cxt=HHwWgIC91aCDsrouAAAA
They are f**king barbarians. There isn't a pit of hell horrible enough for Putin and his cronies to rot in for all eternity.
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That was a test for you, BRR and your response was exactly as expected. Well done.
Test? That like being asked to stand in the sunshine, saying its warm and bright, and being told that's what was expected. Well, yeah... are you making a point of any kind? Spit it out.
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The first ‘real tilt’ at Putin’s power that holds any form of gravitas &amp;amp;amp; he heads for his bunker. F**k you Russian citizens, I’m alright.
The first ‘bully’ to push him &amp;amp;amp; he runs off hiding.
Speaks volumes about him. More than all the volumes I have ever read about him.
He’s not the bogey man I thought he was. And if I’m thinking that, there will be many more within that ‘inner circle’ of his who are starting to look beyond as opposed to within.
Indeed, and compare that to Zelenski, who under military bombardment for the last 18 months hasn&#039;t once run away.
He does seem to spend half his time outside Ukraine. Where is he when he is in Ukraine? It would be a stupid and irresponsible leader who wasn&#039;t hiding.
He didn't shite it and leave Kyiv, even when the Russia troops were on the outskirts.
Unlike Putin who ran off from Moscow when his old mate's forces were rolling up the M4.
Troll.
Shitting it isn't the point. Just a dafty then isn't he. Tho being generous, maybe he had no idea where to run to.
Trog.
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Putin true to form.
He's got to lash out at somebody to prove what a man he is.
So Russia have fired a missile into a restaurant in a city miles behind the front line.
What a miserable, cowardly excuse for a human.
Yep, it's all shite eh! However, I've still not heard you condemn a single Ukraine atrocity. "Come on you Yellow!"
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I don’t think anyone knows what is going on do they?
Prigozhin exiled to Belarus but no charges being pressed for mutiny. Russians strongly believe in the need for a “strong leader for a strong Russia”. You would have thought that Putin would have arrested or executed him for treason and as a show of his strength. Or was it a plan to flush out his internal doubters? Unlikely as Prigozhin has been an open critic of Putin. A sentiment that is now likely on the rise with the Russian public. Putin appears to just trying to be carrying on like nothing happened.
“Putin has offered Prigozhin's fighters the choice of either coming under Russian military command, leaving service or going to Belarus.”
These mercenary fighters are better trained, better paid and have better equipment than the standard Russian army. The Russian offensive will be a lot weaker without them.
After some reading I think we need to be careful what we wish for with Russia. A civil war in a country with a nuclear arsenal would be an existential threat. There isn’t a Russian Kier Starmer waiting in the wings. Russia only had democracy between 1991-1999 and it was a period of weakness for them. They are taught in school that a strong leader is required or the country would see a return to the “Time of Troubles” (1598-1613) where there was widespread famine and invasions from neighbouring countries.
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Meanwhile, here's the head of the entire Russian armed forces in Ukraine looking like he's pissed up, slurring an entreaty to Wagner troops.
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672357331663765504
But yeah. NATO.
Looks like the purge has begun.
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1674142419208503296?s=20
Surovikin obviously wasn't convincing enough when he gave that pissed up denunciation of Prigozhin.
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I don’t think anyone knows what is going on do they?
Prigozhin exiled to Belarus but no charges being pressed for mutiny. Russians strongly believe in the need for a “strong leader for a strong Russia”. You would have thought that Putin would have arrested or executed him for treason and as a show of his strength. Or was it a plan to flush out his internal doubters? Unlikely as Prigozhin has been an open critic of Putin. A sentiment that is now likely on the rise with the Russian public. Putin appears to just trying to be carrying on like nothing happened.
“Putin has offered Prigozhin's fighters the choice of either coming under Russian military command, leaving service or going to Belarus.”
These mercenary fighters are better trained, better paid and have better equipment than the standard Russian army. The Russian offensive will be a lot weaker without them.
After some reading I think we need to be careful what we wish for with Russia. A civil war in a country with a nuclear arsenal would be an existential threat. There isn’t a Russian Kier Starmer waiting in the wings. Russia only had democracy between 1991-1999 and it was a period of weakness for them. They are taught in school that a strong leader is required or the country would see a return to the “Time of Troubles” (1598-1613) where there was widespread famine and invasions from neighbouring countries.
As far as I can see, about 8k Wagner went to Belarus, 15k to 25k are still with Russia and are being integrated into Russian forces.
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Meanwhile, here's the head of the entire Russian armed forces in Ukraine looking like he's pissed up, slurring an entreaty to Wagner troops.
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672357331663765504
But yeah. NATO.
Looks like the purge has begun.
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1674142419208503296?s=20
Surovikin obviously wasn't convincing enough when he gave that pissed up denunciation of Prigozhin.
Biden can do much the same in performance without a drink. What a dude. And Zelensky can do a cracking coke performance. Without taking coke, of course. Sunak is meanwhile buying up millions of Wonky Bars in the hope of winning a golden ticket. Morrisons are bemused.
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I don’t think anyone knows what is going on do they?
Prigozhin exiled to Belarus but no charges being pressed for mutiny. Russians strongly believe in the need for a “strong leader for a strong Russia”. You would have thought that Putin would have arrested or executed him for treason and as a show of his strength. Or was it a plan to flush out his internal doubters? Unlikely as Prigozhin has been an open critic of Putin. A sentiment that is now likely on the rise with the Russian public. Putin appears to just trying to be carrying on like nothing happened.
“Putin has offered Prigozhin's fighters the choice of either coming under Russian military command, leaving service or going to Belarus.”
These mercenary fighters are better trained, better paid and have better equipment than the standard Russian army. The Russian offensive will be a lot weaker without them.
After some reading I think we need to be careful what we wish for with Russia. A civil war in a country with a nuclear arsenal would be an existential threat. There isn’t a Russian Kier Starmer waiting in the wings. Russia only had democracy between 1991-1999 and it was a period of weakness for them. They are taught in school that a strong leader is required or the country would see a return to the “Time of Troubles” (1598-1613) where there was widespread famine and invasions from neighbouring countries.
As far as I can see, about 8k Wagner went to Belarus, 15k to 25k are still with Russia and are being integrated into Russian forces.
Why no punishment for Prigozhin?
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I don’t think anyone knows what is going on do they?
Prigozhin exiled to Belarus but no charges being pressed for mutiny. Russians strongly believe in the need for a “strong leader for a strong Russia”. You would have thought that Putin would have arrested or executed him for treason and as a show of his strength. Or was it a plan to flush out his internal doubters? Unlikely as Prigozhin has been an open critic of Putin. A sentiment that is now likely on the rise with the Russian public. Putin appears to just trying to be carrying on like nothing happened.
“Putin has offered Prigozhin's fighters the choice of either coming under Russian military command, leaving service or going to Belarus.”
These mercenary fighters are better trained, better paid and have better equipment than the standard Russian army. The Russian offensive will be a lot weaker without them.
After some reading I think we need to be careful what we wish for with Russia. A civil war in a country with a nuclear arsenal would be an existential threat. There isn’t a Russian Kier Starmer waiting in the wings. Russia only had democracy between 1991-1999 and it was a period of weakness for them. They are taught in school that a strong leader is required or the country would see a return to the “Time of Troubles” (1598-1613) where there was widespread famine and invasions from neighbouring countries.
As far as I can see, about 8k Wagner went to Belarus, 15k to 25k are still with Russia and are being integrated into Russian forces.
Why no punishment for Prigozhin?
We don't know if he's been punished financially. Could well be future plans for punishment, but, right now, how useful is he for Russia?
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Why are we talking about Ukraine anyway? According to Biden Russia's invading Iraq.
Bloody hell, next year's US Election will probably be between a convicted criminal and someone who doesn't know what f*cking planet he's on.
That's even worse than the two duffers we've got to choose between in our GE next year.
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The first ‘real tilt’ at Putin’s power that holds any form of gravitas &amp; he heads for his bunker. F**k you Russian citizens, I’m alright.
The first ‘bully’ to push him &amp; he runs off hiding.
Speaks volumes about him. More than all the volumes I have ever read about him.
He’s not the bogey man I thought he was. And if I’m thinking that, there will be many more within that ‘inner circle’ of his who are starting to look beyond as opposed to within.
Indeed, and compare that to Zelenski, who under military bombardment for the last 18 months hasn't once run away.
All his mates are going to his gaff though, Bono, Sean Penn, Ben Stiller and now Greta Kitsonberg
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Could be a horrific issue on the horizon.
Reports that the Russians have mined the Zaporizhzha nuclear reactors and are planning to destroy them as a "look how f**king out of control we can be if you push us" scorched earth policy.
This would be by a million miles the biggest war crime in history.
https://twitter.com/IuliiaMendel/status/1674676657829953536?s=20
From 5 July, there are easterly winds forecast for Zaporizhzhia for several days...
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Could be a horrific issue on the horizon.
Reports that the Russians have mined the Zaporizhzha nuclear reactors and are planning to destroy them as a &quot;look how f**king out of control we can be if you push us&quot; scorched earth policy.
This would be by a million miles the biggest war crime in history.
https://twitter.com/IuliiaMendel/status/1674676657829953536?s=20
From 5 July, there are easterly winds forecast for Zaporizhzhia for several days...
Russia has been closing it down. Obviously the safest thing to do when Ukraine was launching attacks in that area, as well as shelling it directly with imprecise equipment, or at the very least, nearby. Either way, whatever your newsfeed, it's not going to be a Chernobyl. Other nuke plants may be. And then there's the UK supplied depleted uranium shells, or what's left of them. .
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Yeah, I know the Kremlin line is "We are closing it down as we expect a deliberate attack on the plant by Ukraine forces."
Because, of course it would be in Ukraine's interests to blow up Europe's biggest nuclear power station on their own soil. Just as of course it was in Ukraine's interests to destroy the Nova Kakhovka dam.
Do you EVER examine your soul when you are pouring out this unprocessed Kremlin propaganda?
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I don’t think anyone knows what is going on do they?
Prigozhin exiled to Belarus but no charges being pressed for mutiny. Russians strongly believe in the need for a “strong leader for a strong Russia”. You would have thought that Putin would have arrested or executed him for treason and as a show of his strength. Or was it a plan to flush out his internal doubters? Unlikely as Prigozhin has been an open critic of Putin. A sentiment that is now likely on the rise with the Russian public. Putin appears to just trying to be carrying on like nothing happened.
“Putin has offered Prigozhin's fighters the choice of either coming under Russian military command, leaving service or going to Belarus.”
These mercenary fighters are better trained, better paid and have better equipment than the standard Russian army. The Russian offensive will be a lot weaker without them.
After some reading I think we need to be careful what we wish for with Russia. A civil war in a country with a nuclear arsenal would be an existential threat. There isn’t a Russian Kier Starmer waiting in the wings. Russia only had democracy between 1991-1999 and it was a period of weakness for them. They are taught in school that a strong leader is required or the country would see a return to the “Time of Troubles” (1598-1613) where there was widespread famine and invasions from neighbouring countries.
As far as I can see, about 8k Wagner went to Belarus, 15k to 25k are still with Russia and are being integrated into Russian forces.
Why no punishment for Prigozhin?
We don't know if he's been punished financially. Could well be future plans for punishment, but, right now, how useful is he for Russia?
This is why I added the historical context on my first post.
Surely Putin would make a show of punishing him if was going to?
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Just in case anyone had any doubts about the barbarity of the people that matter in Russia.
https://twitter.com/revishvilig/status/1674828349150052355?s=20
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Interesting if true:
The Armed Forces of Ukraine will try to develop a counteroffensive and break through the Russian defense in order to show the result before the NATO summit in Vilnius on July 11-12.
This was stated by the President of Serbia, Vučić, on Prva. According to him, a major offensive operation of Ukraine will begin tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.
"I am now expecting a major offensive by Ukraine in two directions – one towards Bakhmut, the second, much larger, towards Enerhodar and Melitopol. I think they have prepared several dozen brigades and will break through the Russian defense," he added.
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1675486865636442113
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It is what Ukraine does, throws effort and caution to the wind to impress its investors/sponsors. Worrying given that already they've lost huge numbers of troops in the "greatest ever counter offensive". Throwing more to the slaughter just to get weapons to replace what they've lost, and escalate with new ones, and escalate with NATO troops into West Ukraine is not going to change the course of this war to anything positive for Ukraine people. It will kill more Ukrainians, tens of thousands more.
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Just in case anyone had any doubts about the barbarity of the people that matter in Russia.
https://twitter.com/revishvilig/status/1674828349150052355?s=20
Barbary in what way?
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Just in case anyone had any doubts about the barbarity of the people that matter in Russia.
https://twitter.com/revishvilig/status/1674828349150052355?s=20
Barbary in what way?
If you really need me to tell you, you are an idiot.
If you don't really need me to tell you, you are a troll.
I'm done. I've only put three people on ignore in here in all the time I've been on, but you're now the 4th.
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For the record, here's three of the dozen or so people who were killed in that missile attack on the Kramatorsk city centre.
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1674001541450158081
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1675649895464566785
That's what Russian generals say makes them sing with delight.
That's what BRR and the Kremlin fan boys ignore.
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BRR is this forum's very own Russian Bot.
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BRR is this forum's very own Russian Bot.
He is actually an old trot who believes everything the west, UK/US/NATO does in their foreign policy is wrong and we should look to appease Russia. As the old left did during the Cold War up to the Hungarian Uprising in 1956. And some continued to do afterwards because they couldn't believe what they were seeing either and refused to change the beliefs they had held all their lives.
End result is the same tho.
-
BRR is this forum's very own Russian Bot.
He is actually an old trot who believes everything the west, UK/US/NATO does in their foreign policy is wrong and we should look to appease Russia. As the old left did during the Cold War up to the Hungarian Uprising in 1956. And some continued to do afterwards because they couldn't believe what they were seeing either and refused to change the beliefs they had held all their lives.
End result is the same tho.
Off the mark, but stay with the narrative you need if that brings you comfort.
-
For the record, here's three of the dozen or so people who were killed in that missile attack on the Kramatorsk city centre.
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1674001541450158081
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1675649895464566785
That's what Russian generals say makes them sing with delight.
That's what BRR and the Kremlin fan boys ignore.
It has been said Ukraine Generals, officers and foreign mercenaries were eating there, many of who were killed. Of course the beeb etc isn't going to say that. Is that true? I've seen pics of soldiers there. You have to question how Ukraine troops mix in with civilians all the time, including having artillery operating there, storing armoured vehicles in with civilians, weapon depots, and like this, soldiers congragating there.
I'm not in the slightest saying it's fair game, it's all evil, but using human shields is a level sicker.
-
For the record, here's three of the dozen or so people who were killed in that missile attack on the Kramatorsk city centre.
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1674001541450158081
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1675649895464566785
That's what Russian generals say makes them sing with delight.
That's what BRR and the Kremlin fan boys ignore.
It has been said Ukraine Generals, officers and foreign mercenaries were eating there, many of who were killed. Of course the beeb etc isn't going to say that. Is that true? I've seen pics of soldiers there. You have to question how Ukraine troops mix in with civilians all the time, including having artillery operating there, storing armoured vehicles in with civilians, weapon depots, and like this, soldiers congragating there.
I'm not in the slightest saying it's fair game, it's all evil, but using human shields is a level sicker.
Could you point us in the direction where we could see this?
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It's the Kremlin line.
Just like exactly one year earlier when the Russians lobbed a 1tonne anti-ship warhead into a shopping centre, and BRR did the "Reports are going around that..." thing that useful idiots do when they are spreading Kremlin propaganda. In that case, he spread reports that the missile had targetted a NATO munitions dump and the damage to the shopping centre was collateral. 100% wrong, but he never seems to stop and question whether he should trust his sources. So the only conclusion is that he's doing it deliberately.
It's a bit like that line from Trump. "A lot of people are saying..." before churning out a lie. It's designed to give plausible deniability. "Hey! *I*'m not saying it's true. Just saying that other people are doing."
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For the record, here's three of the dozen or so people who were killed in that missile attack on the Kramatorsk city centre.
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1674001541450158081
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1675649895464566785
That's what Russian generals say makes them sing with delight.
That's what BRR and the Kremlin fan boys ignore.
It has been said Ukraine Generals, officers and foreign mercenaries were eating there, many of who were killed. Of course the beeb etc isn't going to say that. Is that true? I've seen pics of soldiers there. You have to question how Ukraine troops mix in with civilians all the time, including having artillery operating there, storing armoured vehicles in with civilians, weapon depots, and like this, soldiers congragating there.
I'm not in the slightest saying it's fair game, it's all evil, but using human shields is a level sicker.
Where exactly is this 'being said'?
-
BRR is this forum's very own Russian Bot.
He is actually an old trot who believes everything the west, UK/US/NATO does in their foreign policy is wrong and we should look to appease Russia. As the old left did during the Cold War up to the Hungarian Uprising in 1956. And some continued to do afterwards because they couldn't believe what they were seeing either and refused to change the beliefs they had held all their lives.
End result is the same tho.
Off the mark, but stay with the narrative you need if that brings you comfort.
Not particularly. I give very little thought to your motivation. I reply to what I read, why you post it is irrelvant.
As I said above in response to Pies - the end result is the same.
-
For the record, here's three of the dozen or so people who were killed in that missile attack on the Kramatorsk city centre.
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1674001541450158081
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1675649895464566785
That's what Russian generals say makes them sing with delight.
That's what BRR and the Kremlin fan boys ignore.
It has been said Ukraine Generals, officers and foreign mercenaries were eating there, many of who were killed. Of course the beeb etc isn't going to say that. Is that true? I've seen pics of soldiers there. You have to question how Ukraine troops mix in with civilians all the time, including having artillery operating there, storing armoured vehicles in with civilians, weapon depots, and like this, soldiers congragating there.
I'm not in the slightest saying it's fair game, it's all evil, but using human shields is a level sicker.
Ukrainians, eh? You'd have thought by now they'd have worked out that the human shield thingy isn't really working.
-
BRR is this forum's very own Russian Bot.
He is actually an old trot who believes everything the west, UK/US/NATO does in their foreign policy is wrong and we should look to appease Russia. As the old left did during the Cold War up to the Hungarian Uprising in 1956. And some continued to do afterwards because they couldn't believe what they were seeing either and refused to change the beliefs they had held all their lives.
End result is the same tho.
Off the mark, but stay with the narrative you need if that brings you comfort.
Not particularly. I give very little thought to your motivation. I reply to what I read, why you post it is irrelvant.
As I said above in response to Pies - the end result is the same.
Try reading what you said, perhaps?
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US sending cluster bombs to the Ukraine.
Wow
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Prigozhin back in Russia I see BRR. Putin must really be weakened in the eyes of the general Russian public.
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US sending cluster bombs to the Ukraine.
Wow
Why wow? Russia has been using them on populated areas for much of the war
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/06/what-are-cluster-bombs-biden-ukraine-russia
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Prigozhin back in Russia I see BRR. Putin must really be weakened in the eyes of the general Russian public.
Difficult to know what the full story is there, but overall it does seem Prigozhin's power and influence has been controlled and used well? I think Russian people can probably see that, and so it's most likely Putin's standing has improved.
-
US sending cluster bombs to the Ukraine.
Wow
Why wow? Russia has been using them on populated areas for much of the war
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/06/what-are-cluster-bombs-biden-ukraine-russia
As has Ukraine, even according to that Guardian article.
Ukraine has also extensively used petal mines, fired into urban areas.
More concerning is the introduction of depleted uranium shells from Sunak.
-
For the record, here's three of the dozen or so people who were killed in that missile attack on the Kramatorsk city centre.
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1674001541450158081
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1675649895464566785
That's what Russian generals say makes them sing with delight.
That's what BRR and the Kremlin fan boys ignore.
It has been said Ukraine Generals, officers and foreign mercenaries were eating there, many of who were killed. Of course the beeb etc isn't going to say that. Is that true? I've seen pics of soldiers there. You have to question how Ukraine troops mix in with civilians all the time, including having artillery operating there, storing armoured vehicles in with civilians, weapon depots, and like this, soldiers congragating there.
I'm not in the slightest saying it's fair game, it's all evil, but using human shields is a level sicker.
Where exactly is this 'being said'?
Not in the Guardian or beeb, I wonder why? Here is one place https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/29/ukraine-says-suspect-directed-russia-missile-attack-on-restaurant
I saw a vid showing US serviceman, presumably ex serviceman, giving help after the strike. I'll post it if I find it again. Meanwhile, there's no doubt soldiers were there.
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/marine-veteran-killed-kramatorsk-ukraine/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/06/28/ukraine-russia-war-latest-vladimir-putin-yevgeny-prigozhin/
There's a vid in this link referencing soldiers https://sputnikglobe.com/amp/20230629/fact-check-what-was-real-spot-of-russias-strike-in-kramatorsk-1111542792.html
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For the record, here's three of the dozen or so people who were killed in that missile attack on the Kramatorsk city centre.
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1674001541450158081
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1675649895464566785
That's what Russian generals say makes them sing with delight.
That's what BRR and the Kremlin fan boys ignore.
It has been said Ukraine Generals, officers and foreign mercenaries were eating there, many of who were killed. Of course the beeb etc isn't going to say that. Is that true? I've seen pics of soldiers there. You have to question how Ukraine troops mix in with civilians all the time, including having artillery operating there, storing armoured vehicles in with civilians, weapon depots, and like this, soldiers congragating there.
I'm not in the slightest saying it's fair game, it's all evil, but using human shields is a level sicker.
Where exactly is this 'being said'?
Not in the Guardian or beeb, I wonder why? Here is one place https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/29/ukraine-says-suspect-directed-russia-missile-attack-on-restaurant
I saw a vid showing US serviceman, presumably ex serviceman, giving help after the strike. I'll post it if I find it again. Meanwhile, there's no doubt soldiers were there.
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/marine-veteran-killed-kramatorsk-ukraine/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/06/28/ukraine-russia-war-latest-vladimir-putin-yevgeny-prigozhin/
There's a vid in this link referencing soldiers https://sputnikglobe.com/amp/20230629/fact-check-what-was-real-spot-of-russias-strike-in-kramatorsk-1111542792.html
Nowhere in any of those independent sources does it say what you claimed. Other than them reporting claims by the Russian Defence Ministry. The only soldiers killed in that attack were ones on leave.
In fact the Aljazeera article quotes Russian 'sources' as claiming they never hit civilian targets - just after it notes that three Colombian civilians were injured in the attack.
So your source appears to be Russian State tv & the Russian Defence Ministry.
-
US sending cluster bombs to the Ukraine.
Wow
Why wow? Russia has been using them on populated areas for much of the war
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/06/what-are-cluster-bombs-biden-ukraine-russia
As has Ukraine, even according to that Guardian article.
Ukraine has also extensively used petal mines, fired into urban areas.
More concerning is the introduction of depleted uranium shells from Sunak.
Depleted uranium, we’ve been there before, another weapon that the Russians already have in their arsenal. Seems you’re okay with Russians having it, but against anyone supplying the Ukrainian with it.
As for petal mines, the Russians have previous for this as they spread millions all over Afghanistan when they occupied that country. So again you seem happy that the Russians have and use these mines but against anyone who retaliates with the same weapons.
-
US sending cluster bombs to the Ukraine.
Wow
Why wow? Russia has been using them on populated areas for much of the war
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/06/what-are-cluster-bombs-biden-ukraine-russia
As has Ukraine, even according to that Guardian article.
Ukraine has also extensively used petal mines, fired into urban areas.
More concerning is the introduction of depleted uranium shells from Sunak.
Depleted uranium, we’ve been there before, another weapon that the Russians already have in their arsenal. Seems you’re okay with Russians having it, but against anyone supplying the Ukrainian with it.
As for petal mines, the Russians have previous for this as they spread millions all over Afghanistan when they occupied that country. So again you seem happy that the Russians have and use these mines but against anyone who retaliates with the same weapons.
Use of these mines is bad, very bad. I'm not defending anyone using them. I don't recall Russia usi g them in Ukraine? I may be wrong. That doesn't excuse Ukraine using them.
Russia also has a full set of nukes. I don't beive it has used them n Ukraine, nor depleted Uranium. I don't believe it intends to. Is Ukraine intending to use the ones from UK? Or at least ones it has left as there is more than a suggestion that one stockpile was hit.
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For the record, here's three of the dozen or so people who were killed in that missile attack on the Kramatorsk city centre.
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1674001541450158081
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1675649895464566785
That's what Russian generals say makes them sing with delight.
That's what BRR and the Kremlin fan boys ignore.
It has been said Ukraine Generals, officers and foreign mercenaries were eating there, many of who were killed. Of course the beeb etc isn't going to say that. Is that true? I've seen pics of soldiers there. You have to question how Ukraine troops mix in with civilians all the time, including having artillery operating there, storing armoured vehicles in with civilians, weapon depots, and like this, soldiers congragating there.
I'm not in the slightest saying it's fair game, it's all evil, but using human shields is a level sicker.
Where exactly is this 'being said'?
Not in the Guardian or beeb, I wonder why? Here is one place https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/29/ukraine-says-suspect-directed-russia-missile-attack-on-restaurant
I saw a vid showing US serviceman, presumably ex serviceman, giving help after the strike. I'll post it if I find it again. Meanwhile, there's no doubt soldiers were there.
https://taskandpurpose.com/news/marine-veteran-killed-kramatorsk-ukraine/
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2023/06/28/ukraine-russia-war-latest-vladimir-putin-yevgeny-prigozhin/
There's a vid in this link referencing soldiers https://sputnikglobe.com/amp/20230629/fact-check-what-was-real-spot-of-russias-strike-in-kramatorsk-1111542792.html
Nowhere in any of those independent sources does it say what you claimed. Other than them reporting claims by the Russian Defence Ministry. The only soldiers killed in that attack were ones on leave.
In fact the Aljazeera article quotes Russian 'sources' as claiming they never hit civilian targets - just after it notes that three Colombian civilians were injured in the attack.
So your source appears to be Russian State tv & the Russian Defence Ministry.
If military are mixing with civilians don't believe that makes it a civilian target. That vid shows soldiers were hit. Just because they're not fighting doesn't mean they're not a target.
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Seems the Russians have been lying again! No surprises, but it does put a certain persons opinion in the gutter where it deserves to be;
“Most of the people who were portrayed in such stories as ‘victims’ of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were stand-ins, hired individuals. These characters repeated pre-memorized lines to themselves, trying to ‘squeeze out a tear.’ They were also instructed off-camera by the operator to speak ‘slower’ or to ‘repeat this moment again’,” told the former employee of RIA FAN.
https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/07/14/victims-of-donbas-genocide-were-paid-actors-prigozhins-fired-trolls-reveal/
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Seems the Russians have been lying again! No surprises, but it does put a certain persons opinion in the gutter where it deserves to be;
“Most of the people who were portrayed in such stories as ‘victims’ of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were stand-ins, hired individuals. These characters repeated pre-memorized lines to themselves, trying to ‘squeeze out a tear.’ They were also instructed off-camera by the operator to speak ‘slower’ or to ‘repeat this moment again’,” told the former employee of RIA FAN.
https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/07/14/victims-of-donbas-genocide-were-paid-actors-prigozhins-fired-trolls-reveal/
Ah, that changes everything then. There's no victims of the armed forces of "Ukraine". Or what is it you're claiming exactly?
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Seems the Russians have been lying again! No surprises, but it does put a certain persons opinion in the gutter where it deserves to be;
“Most of the people who were portrayed in such stories as ‘victims’ of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were stand-ins, hired individuals. These characters repeated pre-memorized lines to themselves, trying to ‘squeeze out a tear.’ They were also instructed off-camera by the operator to speak ‘slower’ or to ‘repeat this moment again’,” told the former employee of RIA FAN.
https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/07/14/victims-of-donbas-genocide-were-paid-actors-prigozhins-fired-trolls-reveal/
Ah, that changes everything then. There's no victims of the armed forces of "Ukraine". Or what is it you're claiming exactly?
Not at all, but the foundation of your argument has always been that the Ukraine were bombing civilians in the Donbas which justified the Russian position.
My friends and work colleagues in the Donbas region have always maintained that the stories of mass casualties caused by Ukraine were false, and here's the Russians actually admitting it.
I know, it doesn't suit your agenda. But I trust my friends on the ground to be more accurate than you.
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That wasn't the foundation of what is your perception of my argument. My main argument is the western media narrative is far from the whole story. Also, that the build up to this war is long and complex, including Russia itching for taking Ukraine, including the US, NATO, UK wanting a proxy war, wanting to have a go at Russia. The Donbas situation was fairly far down the road in all this.
Are you friends saying Ukraine forces, many of them swastika sporting, was not killing people in Donbas? Where in Donbas are your friends?
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"the US, NATO, UK wanting a proxy war, wanting to have a go at Russia"? Your mate Vlad fell for that hook, line and sinker then didn't he. What a plonker.
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The idea that anyone in the West wanted this to be a major shooting war is just preposterous. Its the sort of intellectually bone idle diarrhoea shat out by far left idiots and Kremlin fan boys.
Europe didn't want this to be a shooting war because the result has been massive damage to the European economy.
The USA didn't want this to be a shooting war because their nightmare scenario is Putin getting hoyed out and the Russian state system collapsing - becoming Somalia with 7000 nukes.
It only takes a minute of sober thought to understand why it was in the interests of no country in the West for Russia to start this war. But still that shite comes pouring out.
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That wasn't the foundation of what is your perception of my argument. My main argument is the western media narrative is far from the whole story. Also, that the build up to this war is long and complex, including Russia itching for taking Ukraine, including the US, NATO, UK wanting a proxy war, wanting to have a go at Russia. The Donbas situation was fairly far down the road in all this.
Are you friends saying Ukraine forces, many of them swastika sporting, was not killing people in Donbas? Where in Donbas are your friends?
My friends and colleagues were based all over Ukraine, and I visited them all on a regular basis. But key sites were Kiev where our main office and factory was, and an office we had in Donetsk, again which I visited regularly. In 2012 I stayed with a friend and work colleague in his house in Donetsk, which was very welcoming, during the UEFA tournament.
We lost the office in Donetsk after the invasion, and again we lost the factory in Kiev within days of the new invasion during an air attack. We've since opened up again in Kiev but moved most of our senior management and their families in to Poland although quite a number have returned. Its quite emotional trying to have a Teams meeting when you know that some of the people on that call are sitting in an underground station!!
I've avoided your comments on here for quite some time, I don't enjoy arguing politics, but its very personal for me, I know these people, and your disdain for them is beyond belief.
PS - Lets not forget #MH17
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Yet more signs of Russia's increasing loss of world importance.
Ukraine today took out the Kerch Bridge again.
Russia responded by saying it is pulling out of the agreement that let's Ukrainian wheat ships pass through the Black Sea on their way to feed Arabia and Africa.
China very diplomatically says "Get back in your cage Russia. WE tell you what to do."
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1680908984604131328
Meanwhile. Expect the wheat shipments to continue under the protection of the Turkish navy. And since Turkey is in NATO, Russia will not dare attack their ships.
Putin's Russia is a pitiful mess.
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Russia bombs the Grain terminals at Odessa, waiting for BRR to tell us now thats where Ukraine Army are hiding
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I'm sure his sources will be claiming that those nasty Ukrainians were disguising themselves as oversized mice.
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That wasn't the foundation of what is your perception of my argument. My main argument is the western media narrative is far from the whole story. Also, that the build up to this war is long and complex, including Russia itching for taking Ukraine, including the US, NATO, UK wanting a proxy war, wanting to have a go at Russia. The Donbas situation was fairly far down the road in all this.
Are you friends saying Ukraine forces, many of them swastika sporting, was not killing people in Donbas? Where in Donbas are your friends?
My friends and colleagues were based all over Ukraine, and I visited them all on a regular basis. But key sites were Kiev where our main office and factory was, and an office we had in Donetsk, again which I visited regularly. In 2012 I stayed with a friend and work colleague in his house in Donetsk, which was very welcoming, during the UEFA tournament.
We lost the office in Donetsk after the invasion, and again we lost the factory in Kiev within days of the new invasion during an air attack. We've since opened up again in Kiev but moved most of our senior management and their families in to Poland although quite a number have returned. Its quite emotional trying to have a Teams meeting when you know that some of the people on that call are sitting in an underground station!!
I've avoided your comments on here for quite some time, I don't enjoy arguing politics, but its very personal for me, I know these people, and your disdain for them is beyond belief.
PS - Lets not forget #MH17
No disdain in general not at all. Ukraine is in the middle of a geo political move between the US, mainly, and Russia. Plus there are plenty of gangsters in Ukraine both pro Russian and pro West, who have helped flare up this situation for their own self interest, that you and your friends all surely know.
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Russia bombs the Grain terminals at Odessa, waiting for BRR to tell us now thats where Ukraine Army are hiding
No, they're probs not hiding there unlike in cafes and schools in other areas. The bombing of those silos is a destruction of a port as a whole, so international ships will be less likely to go there and so less likely to spread the conflict if they had become embroiled. And it lessens the number of sea born military supplies coming into Ukraine's arsenal.
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Yet more signs of Russia's increasing loss of world importance.
Ukraine today took out the Kerch Bridge again.
Russia responded by saying it is pulling out of the agreement that let's Ukrainian wheat ships pass through the Black Sea on their way to feed Arabia and Africa.
China very diplomatically says "Get back in your cage Russia. WE tell you what to do."
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1680908984604131328
Meanwhile. Expect the wheat shipments to continue under the protection of the Turkish navy. And since Turkey is in NATO, Russia will not dare attack their ships.
Putin's Russia is a pitiful mess.
Lots of US fanboy fantasy there from the tearful one.
Russia was pulling out of the grain deal before the crime bridge damage. It didn't serve them. Reports of military imports from ships later taking grain out doesn't help. Plus Odessa is a military target. Lots of reasons to stop the deal. Judge for yourself tho the big story there isn't wholly what's reported in western media - kinda obvious, but seems there's lots who follow only one side of reporting.
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The idea that anyone in the West wanted this to be a major shooting war is just preposterous. Its the sort of intellectually bone idle diarrhoea shat out by far left idiots and Kremlin fan boys.
Europe didn't want this to be a shooting war because the result has been massive damage to the European economy.
The USA didn't want this to be a shooting war because their nightmare scenario is Putin getting hoyed out and the Russian state system collapsing - becoming Somalia with 7000 nukes.
It only takes a minute of sober thought to understand why it was in the interests of no country in the West for Russia to start this war. But still that shite comes pouring out.
Big assumption there that the EU and US thought their action through. There's a lot of previous they have.
-
Yet more signs of Russia's increasing loss of world importance.
Ukraine today took out the Kerch Bridge again.
Russia responded by saying it is pulling out of the agreement that let's Ukrainian wheat ships pass through the Black Sea on their way to feed Arabia and Africa.
China very diplomatically says "Get back in your cage Russia. WE tell you what to do."
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1680908984604131328
Meanwhile. Expect the wheat shipments to continue under the protection of the Turkish navy. And since Turkey is in NATO, Russia will not dare attack their ships.
Putin's Russia is a pitiful mess.
Lots of US fanboy fantasy there from the tearful one.
Russia was pulling out of the grain deal before the crime bridge damage. It didn't serve them. Reports of military imports from ships later taking grain out doesn't help. Plus Odessa is a military target. Lots of reasons to stop the deal. Judge for yourself tho the big story there isn't wholly what's reported in western media - kinda obvious, but seems there's lots who follow only one side of reporting.
Interesting to see you refer to the bridge by its real name.
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"Reports of military imports from ships later taking grain out..."
Jesus, the Kremlin propaganda b*llocks never stops from BRR does it.
"Lots of reasons to stop the deal". That's an insight into a person's soul. The grain shipments are vital to prevent the real threat of starvation in parts of East Africa and Yemen. There is precisely zero reason for Russia to stop these grain shipments other than an attempt to blackmail the world's conscience.
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https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1681697146305740800
More threats from the Kremlin fascists. I'll tell you now. They will not dare attack a Turkish navy ship.
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https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1681697146305740800
More threats from the Kremlin fascists. I'll tell you now. They will not dare attack a Turkish navy ship.
It sounds like Russia is getting desperate, ate NATO naval vessels allowed free passage through the Bosphorus
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poo tin now not going to SA for the BRICS conference.
Thats saves SA a big headache surrounding his ICC warrant.
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Didn't they tell him a while back that if he came they would have to arrest him?
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"Reports of military imports from ships later taking grain out..."
Jesus, the Kremlin propaganda b*llocks never stops from BRR does it.
"Lots of reasons to stop the deal". That's an insight into a person's soul. The grain shipments are vital to prevent the real threat of starvation in parts of East Africa and Yemen. There is precisely zero reason for Russia to stop these grain shipments other than an attempt to blackmail the world's conscience.
Yet many shipments didn't go to those needy countries did they....
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And the side of the deal for Russia didn't materialise.
"When the UN brokered the deal, it told Russia it would help it increase its exports of grain and fertilisers.
Although Western countries have imposed no sanctions on Russia's agricultural products, Russia says the sanctions they did impose have deterred shipping firms, international banks and insurers from dealing with its producers.
What sanctions are being imposed on Russia?
Russia asked for its state-owned agricultural bank, Rosselkhozbank, to be reconnected to the Swift fast payment system (from which all Russian banks were barred in June 2022).
The UN suggested that Russia set up a subsidiary of the bank, which would be allowed to use Swift - but Russia refused that option, saying it would take too long.
Other suggested schemes, such as processing payments for food and fertiliser through the US bank JPMorgan Chase, or through the African Export-Import Bank, also fell through.
Russia says it will rejoin the deal if its conditions are met."
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-61759692
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https://youtu.be/nPg7AdXSrbE
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https://youtu.be/nPg7AdXSrbE
I think anyone who even basically grasps the problem with Ukraine food exports can see the effect on the world. What this guy completely skips in his detailed analysis is what I highlighted above. From what he does say, he is promoting one side of the issue, quite cheaply so at certain points.
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Just seen some figures showing that 40% of Russia's sea-borne oil exports go through the Black Sea.
Ukraine has just announced a tit-for-tat policy that they will consider all ships using Russian Black Sea ports to be military targets.
Yet another dogshit policy barfed up on the hoof by Putin without consideration of the consequences.
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No doubt there were Ukrainian troops, EU advisers and NATO weapons staches in here.
https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1682892910755282945
f**king barbarians.
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Time to take out the Kerch Bridge properly, and the Black Sea fleet at Sevastopol
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Zelensky has promised retaliation after the missile strike on the Cathedral
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Time to take out the Kerch Bridge properly, and the Black Sea fleet at Sevastopol
Would that not hurt civilians in crimea though ?
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No doubt there were Ukrainian troops, EU advisers and NATO weapons staches in here.
https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1682892910755282945
f**king barbarians.
BST knowing it wasn't air defence?
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Not only that, but it is a state sponsored "opium of the people" institution. Do we need them, or do our rulers need them? Who's crying?
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No doubt there were Ukrainian troops, EU advisers and NATO weapons staches in here.
https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1682892910755282945
f**king barbarians.
BST knowing it wasn't air defence?
And you knowing it was?
Anyway, lets go with that line for a minute, if there wasn’t any f**king missile’s incoming there would be no need for air defence would there? Do you see the flaw in your warped theory?
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No doubt there were Ukrainian troops, EU advisers and NATO weapons staches in here.
https://twitter.com/yarotrof/status/1682892910755282945
f**king barbarians.
BST knowing it wasn't air defence?
And you knowing it was?
Anyway, lets go with that line for a minute, if there wasn’t any f**king missile’s incoming there would be no need for air defence would there? Do you see the flaw in your warped theory?
Calm you boots potty mouth.
Likelihood is its air defence, which is different from an incoming missile, which is different than a targetted missile - BST's post was suggesting the latter, as he always does. Then yes, any missiles are bad things.
I'm not taking away from this, so as an "and" not a "but" it's worth noting the grain deal failure and why. Its also worth noting the massive use of cluster munitions by the US/Ukraine, partly due to running out of conventional shells. This will be reciprocated. Not a good thing.
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When an air defence missile is fired and hits an incoming missile, then debris falls, and in unpredictable areas. That leaves a totally different sort of damage from the explosion of the warhead of a missile strike. In this case with the huge stone building concerned there seems little doubt there was an explosion, not debris falling.
For the case when an air defence missile misses, the warhead of an S300 missile is about 300lb - larger than most others, but still IMHO not enough to cause the damage concerned. The missile has a range of 75 to 250 miles and is not a point defence missile, it hits targets while they are a long way away, and so if it missed it is likely to land nowhere near Odessa itself. Shorter range air defence missiles have very much smaller warheads.
My experience as an air warfare analyst, albeit on the limited data I can see, suggests a direct hit from incoming missile as by far the most likely.
The BBC report has little doubt
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66281027
Edit: I have no comment on whether the incoming missile was targetted, inaccurate or rogue, but if it was not the first then it could equally easily have been a hospital, school or residential flats that were hit
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Exactly right DU.
I cannot put into words the contempt I have for someone who repeatedly churns out Kremlin lines every single time this sort of thing happens. It'd be vaguely believable if there was some supporting logic to it. But there isn't. Ever. It's the sort of argument that is aimed at the stupid, the ignorant and the ideologically impervious.
While innocent people die, vital civilian infrastructure is destroyed and cultural landmarks are obliterated. By a fascist state terrorist.
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When an air defence missile is fired and hits an incoming missile, then debris falls, and in unpredictable areas. That leaves a totally different sort of damage from the explosion of the warhead of a missile strike. In this case with the huge stone building concerned there seems little doubt there was an explosion, not debris falling.
For the case when an air defence missile misses, the warhead of an S300 missile is about 300lb - larger than most others, but still IMHO not enough to cause the damage concerned. The missile has a range of 75 to 250 miles and is not a point defence missile, it hits targets while they are a long way away, and so if it missed it is likely to land nowhere near Odessa itself. Shorter range air defence missiles have very much smaller warheads.
My experience as an air warfare analyst, albeit on the limited data I can see, suggests a direct hit from incoming missile as by far the most likely.
The BBC report has little doubt
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66281027
Edit: I have no comment on whether the incoming missile was targetted, inaccurate or rogue, but if it was not the first then it could equally easily have been a hospital, school or residential flats that were hit
I saw a vid on this night where it seemed like an air defense missile went up, then down. It is said this happened more than once. It's certainly the case that Odessa air defence was stretched beyond on that night, more so than in most regions.
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My concern right now with Ukraine evidently progressively struggling, is what will NATO opt for? Yes Dutch, I know that it isn't officially NATO, but let's be realistic.
Poland is v likely to send in troops in the west. Belarus is likely to be involved. Wagner is sitting there waiting. Is it possible for BOTH sides to contain action within Ukraine? If not we're in mega serious escalation. If Poland engages, who next?
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BRR, while as you know I strongly disagree with your view on how we got to this situation, nevertheless I wholeheartedly agree with you that it is a critical time for NATO. But I think so for a different reason. The collapse of the grain deal has exacerbated a global humanitarian factor and pressure for action in the Black Sea might arise. Dangerous times with plenty of NATO countries with Black Sea coastlines and ports.
And if you saw a video of an air defence missile going up and down then it was almost certainly a SHORAD (Short Range Air Defence) missile used as point defence. The incoming missile would have already penetrated the area defence of the long range Surface-to-Air (SAM) missiles and so the SHORAD would have been sent as a desperate last attempt for an interception with little chance of success. These missiles are far smaller, lighter, quicker to launch, with very small warheads. As an example the most common is the Stinger which has a mere one pound warhead which has no chance of causing the damage seen.
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Yet more signs of Russia's increasing loss of world importance.
Ukraine today took out the Kerch Bridge again.
Russia responded by saying it is pulling out of the agreement that let's Ukrainian wheat ships pass through the Black Sea on their way to feed Arabia and Africa.
China very diplomatically says "Get back in your cage Russia. WE tell you what to do."
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1680908984604131328
Meanwhile. Expect the wheat shipments to continue under the protection of the Turkish navy. And since Turkey is in NATO, Russia will not dare attack their ships.
Putin's Russia is a pitiful mess.
As I was saying. Ships are still sailing in and out of Odesa. Grain is still going through the Black Sea, albeit at reduced rates. Putin claims that the ships are used to bring military supplies into Ukraine and his useful idiots repeat those claims. But despite his threats, he doesn't dare lay a finger on those ships. Instead he bombs the grain silos. Lashing out like the emasculated thug he is.
And meanwhile, the UN representative in Sudan warns of impending famine because of the global increase in grain prices due to the reduction in grain supplies from Ukraine.
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And more meanwhile.
Lukashenko and Putin sit gabbling like two incel trolls about Wagner attacking Poland. When they both know that the Polish army would eat them up and shit them out if they so much as thought about farting across the border.
This is what happens when potentially great countries are dominated by low grade fascist thugs. They appear scary for a while. Then reality hits and they find that actually they are toothless on the big stage. And they are left bombing grain silos and cathedrals and apartment blocks to vent their impotent rage.
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And more meanwhile.
Lukashenko and Putin sit gabbling like two incel trolls about Wagner attacking Poland. When they both know that the Polish army would eat them up and shit them out if they so much as thought about farting across the border.
This is what happens when potentially great countries are dominated by low grade fascist thugs. They appear scary for a while. Then reality hits and they find that actually they are toothless on the big stage. And they are left bombing grain silos and cathedrals and apartment blocks to vent their impotent rage.
Wagner attacking Poland isn't a thing. Poland entering Ukraine, officially, with increasing forces is. As is Ukraine having to keep a lot of troops in the west to guard against Belarus and Wagner, whilst they are ever shorter in the east.
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Remember when you hear useful idiots explaining away Putin's War as someone else's fault.
THIS is what Putin does.
Grozny
Aleppo
Now Bakhmut.
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1683437071128489984
Every time he touches somewhere he thinks is weaker than him, this is what he does.
A true barbarian.
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Remember when you hear useful idiots explaining away Putin's War as someone else's fault.
THIS is what Putin does.
Grozny
Aleppo
Now Bakhmut.
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1683437071128489984
Every time he touches somewhere he thinks is weaker than him, this is what he does.
A true barbarian.
That's a fairly short list compared to....
No war is good, but some folks like to fly the flag, feed the fire, play their little role, following the leader, the leader, the leader....
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https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1686014164056043520?s=20
Just normalised now. Putin fires ballistic missiles at university buildings and apartment blocks hundreds of km from the front line and we barely even raise an eyebrow.
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Assuming it's not air defense own goals, and assuming the buildings weren't part of Uke military, then that's an evil thing. As is the current Uke drone targeting of Russian civilian areas in Moscow and elsewhere.
Simply a choice of feeding the fire of evil, causing many thousands more deaths and trauma, or finding a peaceful resolution. The longer this goes on, the more harm is done, the more Ukraine is wrecked, the more it will have to relinquish in peace negotiations.
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Interesting vid I saw of a Ukraine commander in Avdivka complaining that the fresh troops sent to him weren't up to it. The only reason they arrived was because they refused to pay their superiors part of their salary.
Full translated transcript:
But the appeal of the soldiers of the 110th Specialized Brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine has arrived!
“We are fighters of the 110th separate mechanized brigade. We appeal to the command of the armed forces of Ukraine, to the leadership of the Ukrainian state, to law enforcement agencies so that they solve the problem that happened to us.
I am the squad leader. My squad suffered heavy casualties, wounded and killed. I myself was seriously injured by artillery and was in the hospital for several months.
Now, to replace my department, they sent such people as you see. Meet: these are the cooks from the logistics company, uh "Radar" - some kind of f king radar there, the signalman was here ... where are you? And here!
They got here because they did not want to share their salary with the commanders - that's how they ended up in my department.
And that's not all! The rest of my squad are mobilized a week ago! Only a week has passed ... two days ago they got here ... What did you teach them? Nothing?! - Nothing! They just took it! Where, Nikolaev, Odessa? - Nikolaev and Odessa.
How to fight this? In two days we will have to storm the Russian positions. Unfired, uncoordinated in the team ... I'm not even talking about equipment! Look! - The guy is an attack aircraft without armor!
We are not against our duty to Ukraine, we are not against defending the state, we are not against killing Russians!!! But how can we do this with such a composition ?!
And my department is not the only one like that!! Each squad in the 110th brigade is from this composition: rear and mobs!!!
They throw us for meat! Meat guys...
I already reported to Lieutenant Colonel Tarasenko - the battalion commander about this. Other staff rats from the brigade... Nothing changes, they don't care!
Previously, I have already recorded similar appeals, they led to positive changes. I hope that this appeal will lead to positive changes. And we will be trained, armed, have good equipment. And we will kill the Russians and liberate Ukraine!"
"U_G_M"
https://t.me/swodki/289039
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Meanwhile....
https://metro.co.uk/2023/08/04/russia-ukraine-drone-russian-navy-ship-19266301/?ito=pull-notification&ci=3KN74GKKpV&xi=2ac9f9b0-c48c-43c4-a249-80b608958060&ai=19266301
I suspect Putin is not a happy chappy right now.
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Ukraine reportedly using drones to drop looped recordings of footsteps, gun firing, Ukraine voices. Been dropping them behind Russians n the frontline to make them feel surrounded. Clever.
Although it reminds me of some comedy sketch - Python? Milligan?
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Meanwhile....
https://metro.co.uk/2023/08/04/russia-ukraine-drone-russian-navy-ship-19266301/?ito=pull-notification&ci=3KN74GKKpV&xi=2ac9f9b0-c48c-43c4-a249-80b608958060&ai=19266301
I suspect Putin is not a happy chappy right now.
Probably not in that instance. Tis a bit weird they haven't solved the navy drone problem, there's a very easy fix - park up the ships behind a few layers of netting from Wickes.
-
Navalny is a surefire man of principle.
His treatment tells you all you need to know about the rotten and corrupt core of the kremlin regime.
-
Meanwhile....
https://metro.co.uk/2023/08/04/russia-ukraine-drone-russian-navy-ship-19266301/?ito=pull-notification&amp;ci=3KN74GKKpV&amp;xi=2ac9f9b0-c48c-43c4-a249-80b608958060&amp;ai=19266301
I suspect Putin is not a happy chappy right now.
Probably not in that instance. Tis a bit weird they haven't solved the navy drone problem, there's a very easy fix - park up the ships behind a few layers of netting from Wickes.
If the ships all have to be parked is that not mission accomplished for the Ukrainian drones?
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When the history of the 21st century is written, if Russia has come back from the bestial depravity it has currently sunk into, Navalny will be an example of the very best that Russia produced.
-
Meanwhile, it looks like Ukraine have hit the Kerch Bridge again.
-
Navalny is a surefire man of principle.
His treatment tells you all you need to know about the rotten and corrupt core of the kremlin regime.
Like I said, a parallel to the Corbyn case.
-
Meanwhile....
https://metro.co.uk/2023/08/04/russia-ukraine-drone-russian-navy-ship-19266301/?ito=pull-notification&amp;amp;ci=3KN74GKKpV&amp;amp;xi=2ac9f9b0-c48c-43c4-a249-80b608958060&amp;amp;ai=19266301
I suspect Putin is not a happy chappy right now.
Probably not in that instance. Tis a bit weird they haven't solved the navy drone problem, there's a very easy fix - park up the ships behind a few layers of netting from Wickes.
If the ships all have to be parked is that not mission accomplished for the Ukrainian drones?
Temporarily it would be partially an aim achieved. Detrustruction is what is wanted tho, anything less doesn't achieve the level of drama needed to influence either Ukraine or Russian morale. Today's damage is likewise mission not accomplished.
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Navalny is a surefire man of principle.
His treatment tells you all you need to know about the rotten and corrupt core of the kremlin regime.
Like I said, a parallel to the Corbyn case.
I didn't realise Corbyn has been locked up for the rest of his life - my apologies.
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When the history of the 21st century is written, if Russia has come back from the bestial depravity it has currently sunk into, Navalny will be an example of the very best that Russia produced.
I guess you'd say the same re the bestial depravity of the Tories and Corbyn being the best Britain produced? No? BST, a man of duplicitous complexities and syndromes.
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Navalny is a surefire man of principle.
His treatment tells you all you need to know about the rotten and corrupt core of the kremlin regime.
Like I said, a parallel to the Corbyn case.
I didn't realise Corbyn has been locked up for the rest of his life - my apologies.
BRR has come out with some breathtakingly amoral bothsides stuff this past 18 months, but this tops the lot. That's where a lifetime of so-far-left-it's-far-right political beliefs leaves you. Drawing parallels between the fates of Navalny and Corbyn.
If it wasn't so serious, it would be hilarious.
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Navalny is a surefire man of principle.
His treatment tells you all you need to know about the rotten and corrupt core of the kremlin regime.
Like I said, a parallel to the Corbyn case.
I didn't realise Corbyn has been locked up for the rest of his life - my apologies.
Sorry, was in another thread. Same motivation, same effect, but a different means. It doesn't make it better just because prison wasn't used. If you think that, you're falling for the power held over you.
-
Navalny is a surefire man of principle.
His treatment tells you all you need to know about the rotten and corrupt core of the kremlin regime.
Like I said, a parallel to the Corbyn case.
I didn't realise Corbyn has been locked up for the rest of his life - my apologies.
BRR has come out with some breathtakingly amoral bothsides stuff this past 18 months, but this tops the lot. That's where a lifetime of so-far-left-it's-far-right political beliefs leaves you. Drawing parallels between the fates of Navalny and Corbyn.
If it wasn't so serious, it would be hilarious.
Oh, back replying to me? Thing is, as usual, you miss the point. Same effect, different means. I thought you were a little bit more sussed, just a bit. Mr Establishment as you are tho, I should have guessed your angle of comment.
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Navalny is a surefire man of principle.
His treatment tells you all you need to know about the rotten and corrupt core of the kremlin regime.
Like I said, a parallel to the Corbyn case.
I didn't realise Corbyn has been locked up for the rest of his life - my apologies.
Sorry, was in another thread. Same motivation, same effect, but a different means. It doesn't make it better just because prison wasn't used. If you think that, you're falling for the power held over you.
So where does the state sponsored use of nerve agent fit into the Corbyn story.
I see no parallels here at all.
Navalny is a leader of people - greatly feared by the kremlin regime.
Corbyn was never a leader - an activist for sure and a man of principle certainly - but there was never any risk of him being banged up for his beliefs - or poisoned by the state.
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Navalny is a surefire man of principle.
His treatment tells you all you need to know about the rotten and corrupt core of the kremlin regime.
Like I said, a parallel to the Corbyn case.
I didn't realise Corbyn has been locked up for the rest of his life - my apologies.
Sorry, was in another thread. Same motivation, same effect, but a different means. It doesn't make it better just because prison wasn't used. If you think that, you're falling for the power held over you.
So where does the state sponsored use of nerve agent fit into the Corbyn story.
I see no parallels here at all.
Navalny is a leader of people - greatly feared by the kremlin regime.
Corbyn was never a leader - an activist for sure and a man of principle certainly - but there was never any risk of him being banged up for his beliefs - or poisoned by the state.
Corbyn was leader of a Labour Party who very nearly took power of this country. Very weird you say he wasn't a leader.
Corbyn was sabotaged by the establishment, destroyed by them, as they must keep their power. Corbyn threatened that. There is the parallel. Nerve poison, prison etc are just the means. The effect, and the motive is the same.
Putin is the face of who leads Russia, we know that. Who leads the UK? Altogether probably a more sophisticated, and nefarious bunch of evil psychopaths.
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I'm not denying he was leader of the Labour Party - just that he was an ineffective leader - he didn't know how to lead - it wasn't his instinct and therein lay his ultimate downfall.
But this thread is about Ukraine and my comments were about the wretched Navalny - there are no parallels with Corbyn.
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Yes this thread is about Ukraine. Within that it's about perspectives on Ukraine, on Russia, on their leadership, on their motives, on their influences, on the influences on the war in general. Without all that we are left with fixated narratives, like with that of our government, of the BBC, etc. That way we get half a story, not even that, and one that is in the interests of certain parties.
So when the treatment of an individual is demonised as with Navalny it is wise to see how the same happens here in the UK. As I said, not the prison or whatever, but the undemocratic exclusion. That is exactly what happened with Corbyn. It happens in other ways, to other individuals, to groups. It is always, as is the case in this Russian incident, in support of the establishment. It is ALWAYS the case, throughout history. Making out the Russian situation to be horrific whilst thinking that isn't the case here in our own backyard, and in backyards everywhere, is naîve. The establishment is your enemy whether its in Russia or the UK.
-
Navalny is a surefire man of principle.
His treatment tells you all you need to know about the rotten and corrupt core of the kremlin regime.
Like I said, a parallel to the Corbyn case.
I didn't realise Corbyn has been locked up for the rest of his life - my apologies.
Sorry, was in another thread. Same motivation, same effect, but a different means. It doesn't make it better just because prison wasn't used. If you think that, you're falling for the power held over you.
So where does the state sponsored use of nerve agent fit into the Corbyn story.
I see no parallels here at all.
Navalny is a leader of people - greatly feared by the kremlin regime.
Corbyn was never a leader - an activist for sure and a man of principle certainly - but there was never any risk of him being banged up for his beliefs - or poisoned by the state.
Corbyn was leader of a Labour Party who very nearly took power of this country. Very weird you say he wasn't a leader.
Corbyn was sabotaged by the establishment, destroyed by them, as they must keep their power. Corbyn threatened that. There is the parallel. Nerve poison, prison etc are just the means. The effect, and the motive is the same.
Putin is the face of who leads Russia, we know that. Who leads the UK? Altogether probably a more sophisticated, and nefarious bunch of evil psychopaths.
corbyn was sabotaged by the establishment but he was also sabotaged by himself,
-
Navalny is a surefire man of principle.
His treatment tells you all you need to know about the rotten and corrupt core of the kremlin regime.
Like I said, a parallel to the Corbyn case.
I didn't realise Corbyn has been locked up for the rest of his life - my apologies.
Sorry, was in another thread. Same motivation, same effect, but a different means. It doesn't make it better just because prison wasn't used. If you think that, you're falling for the power held over you.
So where does the state sponsored use of nerve agent fit into the Corbyn story.
I see no parallels here at all.
Navalny is a leader of people - greatly feared by the kremlin regime.
Corbyn was never a leader - an activist for sure and a man of principle certainly - but there was never any risk of him being banged up for his beliefs - or poisoned by the state.
Corbyn was leader of a Labour Party who very nearly took power of this country. Very weird you say he wasn't a leader.
Corbyn was sabotaged by the establishment, destroyed by them, as they must keep their power. Corbyn threatened that. There is the parallel. Nerve poison, prison etc are just the means. The effect, and the motive is the same.
Putin is the face of who leads Russia, we know that. Who leads the UK? Altogether probably a more sophisticated, and nefarious bunch of evil psychopaths.
Sorry, a Party that nearly took power! but there was never a chance of Labour being elected with JC as leader
-
Yes this thread is about Ukraine. Within that it's about perspectives on Ukraine, on Russia, on their leadership, on their motives, on their influences, on the influences on the war in general. Without all that we are left with fixated narratives, like with that of our government, of the BBC, etc. That way we get half a story, not even that, and one that is in the interests of certain parties.
So when the treatment of an individual is demonised as with Navalny it is wise to see how the same happens here in the UK. As I said, not the prison or whatever, but the undemocratic exclusion. That is exactly what happened with Corbyn. It happens in other ways, to other individuals, to groups. It is always, as is the case in this Russian incident, in support of the establishment. It is ALWAYS the case, throughout history. Making out the Russian situation to be horrific whilst thinking that isn't the case here in our own backyard, and in backyards everywhere, is naîve. The establishment is your enemy whether its in Russia or the UK.
I readily admit I was watching the BBC 10.00pm news last night and Steve Rosenberg's piece on the Navalny trial largely behind closed doors in a penal colony well away from Moscow. I gleaned that the kremlin consider him a terrorist. He'd been poisoned by the state, treated in Germany and then he returned to Russia under his own free will.
Thats the BBC angle - can you now explain the Navalny situation purely from the kremlin perspective please? If you can keep to the subject matter and avoid any distractions about Corbyn, NATO, the west etc - Navalny and his situation in Russia - purely from the kremlin perspective!
-
Navalny is a surefire man of principle.
His treatment tells you all you need to know about the rotten and corrupt core of the kremlin regime.
Like I said, a parallel to the Corbyn case.
I didn't realise Corbyn has been locked up for the rest of his life - my apologies.
Sorry, was in another thread. Same motivation, same effect, but a different means. It doesn't make it better just because prison wasn't used. If you think that, you're falling for the power held over you.
So where does the state sponsored use of nerve agent fit into the Corbyn story.
I see no parallels here at all.
Navalny is a leader of people - greatly feared by the kremlin regime.
Corbyn was never a leader - an activist for sure and a man of principle certainly - but there was never any risk of him being banged up for his beliefs - or poisoned by the state.
Corbyn was leader of a Labour Party who very nearly took power of this country. Very weird you say he wasn't a leader.
Corbyn was sabotaged by the establishment, destroyed by them, as they must keep their power. Corbyn threatened that. There is the parallel. Nerve poison, prison etc are just the means. The effect, and the motive is the same.
Putin is the face of who leads Russia, we know that. Who leads the UK? Altogether probably a more sophisticated, and nefarious bunch of evil psychopaths.
Sorry, a Party that nearly took power! but there was never a chance of Labour being elected with JC as leader
Yes, exactly. The establishment didn't allow it. Same situation in Russia.
-
Yes this thread is about Ukraine. Within that it's about perspectives on Ukraine, on Russia, on their leadership, on their motives, on their influences, on the influences on the war in general. Without all that we are left with fixated narratives, like with that of our government, of the BBC, etc. That way we get half a story, not even that, and one that is in the interests of certain parties.
So when the treatment of an individual is demonised as with Navalny it is wise to see how the same happens here in the UK. As I said, not the prison or whatever, but the undemocratic exclusion. That is exactly what happened with Corbyn. It happens in other ways, to other individuals, to groups. It is always, as is the case in this Russian incident, in support of the establishment. It is ALWAYS the case, throughout history. Making out the Russian situation to be horrific whilst thinking that isn't the case here in our own backyard, and in backyards everywhere, is naîve. The establishment is your enemy whether its in Russia or the UK.
I readily admit I was watching the BBC 10.00pm news last night and Steve Rosenberg's piece on the Navalny trial largely behind closed doors in a penal colony well away from Moscow. I gleaned that the kremlin consider him a terrorist. He'd been poisoned by the state, treated in Germany and then he returned to Russia under his own free will.
Thats the BBC angle - can you now explain the Navalny situation purely from the kremlin perspective please? If you can keep to the subject matter and avoid any distractions about Corbyn, NATO, the west etc - Navalny and his situation in Russia - purely from the kremlin perspective!
I don't know the details. I'm accepting the probability he is simply not desired. Corbyn wasn't desired either - and he's far from the only one. To say that's a distraction to bring up is showing you don't see how the whole world is controlled by various establishments, including in your backyard. Why is Russia more important to you than your backyard?
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Yes this thread is about Ukraine. Within that it's about perspectives on Ukraine, on Russia, on their leadership, on their motives, on their influences, on the influences on the war in general. Without all that we are left with fixated narratives, like with that of our government, of the BBC, etc. That way we get half a story, not even that, and one that is in the interests of certain parties.
So when the treatment of an individual is demonised as with Navalny it is wise to see how the same happens here in the UK. As I said, not the prison or whatever, but the undemocratic exclusion. That is exactly what happened with Corbyn. It happens in other ways, to other individuals, to groups. It is always, as is the case in this Russian incident, in support of the establishment. It is ALWAYS the case, throughout history. Making out the Russian situation to be horrific whilst thinking that isn't the case here in our own backyard, and in backyards everywhere, is naîve. The establishment is your enemy whether its in Russia or the UK.
I readily admit I was watching the BBC 10.00pm news last night and Steve Rosenberg's piece on the Navalny trial largely behind closed doors in a penal colony well away from Moscow. I gleaned that the kremlin consider him a terrorist. He'd been poisoned by the state, treated in Germany and then he returned to Russia under his own free will.
Thats the BBC angle - can you now explain the Navalny situation purely from the kremlin perspective please? If you can keep to the subject matter and avoid any distractions about Corbyn, NATO, the west etc - Navalny and his situation in Russia - purely from the kremlin perspective!
I don't know the details. I'm accepting the probability he is simply not desired. Corbyn wasn't desired either - and he's far from the only one. To say that's a distraction to bring up is showing you don't see how the whole world is controlled by various establishments, including in your backyard. Why is Russia more important to you than your backyard?
This thread is about Ukraine - my observation was about the rotten and corrupt kremlin regime that banged up a man of principle for life effectively. You say he isn't desired. That seems a bizarre reason to lock somebody up - why do they not desire him? Do you think they fear him? Do you think their intent is to crush all political opposition?
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Navalny is a surefire man of principle.
His treatment tells you all you need to know about the rotten and corrupt core of the kremlin regime.
Like I said, a parallel to the Corbyn case.
I didn't realise Corbyn has been locked up for the rest of his life - my apologies.
Sorry, was in another thread. Same motivation, same effect, but a different means. It doesn't make it better just because prison wasn't used. If you think that, you're falling for the power held over you.
So where does the state sponsored use of nerve agent fit into the Corbyn story.
I see no parallels here at all.
Navalny is a leader of people - greatly feared by the kremlin regime.
Corbyn was never a leader - an activist for sure and a man of principle certainly - but there was never any risk of him being banged up for his beliefs - or poisoned by the state.
Corbyn was leader of a Labour Party who very nearly took power of this country. Very weird you say he wasn't a leader.
Corbyn was sabotaged by the establishment, destroyed by them, as they must keep their power. Corbyn threatened that. There is the parallel. Nerve poison, prison etc are just the means. The effect, and the motive is the same.
Putin is the face of who leads Russia, we know that. Who leads the UK? Altogether probably a more sophisticated, and nefarious bunch of evil psychopaths.
Sorry, a Party that nearly took power! but there was never a chance of Labour being elected with JC as leader
Yes, exactly. The establishment didn't allow it. Same situation in Russia.
No it was the electorate
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Yes this thread is about Ukraine. Within that it's about perspectives on Ukraine, on Russia, on their leadership, on their motives, on their influences, on the influences on the war in general. Without all that we are left with fixated narratives, like with that of our government, of the BBC, etc. That way we get half a story, not even that, and one that is in the interests of certain parties.
So when the treatment of an individual is demonised as with Navalny it is wise to see how the same happens here in the UK. As I said, not the prison or whatever, but the undemocratic exclusion. That is exactly what happened with Corbyn. It happens in other ways, to other individuals, to groups. It is always, as is the case in this Russian incident, in support of the establishment. It is ALWAYS the case, throughout history. Making out the Russian situation to be horrific whilst thinking that isn't the case here in our own backyard, and in backyards everywhere, is naîve. The establishment is your enemy whether its in Russia or the UK.
I readily admit I was watching the BBC 10.00pm news last night and Steve Rosenberg's piece on the Navalny trial largely behind closed doors in a penal colony well away from Moscow. I gleaned that the kremlin consider him a terrorist. He'd been poisoned by the state, treated in Germany and then he returned to Russia under his own free will.
Thats the BBC angle - can you now explain the Navalny situation purely from the kremlin perspective please? If you can keep to the subject matter and avoid any distractions about Corbyn, NATO, the west etc - Navalny and his situation in Russia - purely from the kremlin perspective!
I don't know the details. I'm accepting the probability he is simply not desired. Corbyn wasn't desired either - and he's far from the only one. To say that's a distraction to bring up is showing you don't see how the whole world is controlled by various establishments, including in your backyard. Why is Russia more important to you than your backyard?
This thread is about Ukraine - my observation was about the rotten and corrupt kremlin regime that banged up a man of principle for life effectively. You say he isn't desired. That seems a bizarre reason to lock somebody up - why do they not desire him? Do you think they fear him? Do you think their intent is to crush all political opposition?
About Ukraine? Or Russia? Or geo politics? Or about political elites and the powers behind them abusing? Take your pick.
Yes their intent is to crush all opposition. As it is the world over. Just different countries employ slightly different means.
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Navalny is a surefire man of principle.
His treatment tells you all you need to know about the rotten and corrupt core of the kremlin regime.
Like I said, a parallel to the Corbyn case.
I didn't realise Corbyn has been locked up for the rest of his life - my apologies.
Sorry, was in another thread. Same motivation, same effect, but a different means. It doesn't make it better just because prison wasn't used. If you think that, you're falling for the power held over you.
So where does the state sponsored use of nerve agent fit into the Corbyn story.
I see no parallels here at all.
Navalny is a leader of people - greatly feared by the kremlin regime.
Corbyn was never a leader - an activist for sure and a man of principle certainly - but there was never any risk of him being banged up for his beliefs - or poisoned by the state.
Corbyn was leader of a Labour Party who very nearly took power of this country. Very weird you say he wasn't a leader.
Corbyn was sabotaged by the establishment, destroyed by them, as they must keep their power. Corbyn threatened that. There is the parallel. Nerve poison, prison etc are just the means. The effect, and the motive is the same.
Putin is the face of who leads Russia, we know that. Who leads the UK? Altogether probably a more sophisticated, and nefarious bunch of evil psychopaths.
Sorry, a Party that nearly took power! but there was never a chance of Labour being elected with JC as leader
Yes, exactly. The establishment didn't allow it. Same situation in Russia.
No it was the electorate
And the establishment via various media, slur tactics had nothing to do with it? Ah well, wear your "democracy" badge with pride. Power to the people.
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Deary deary me!
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Another reminder of what the bas**rds in the Kremlin are doing on a regular basis.
https://twitter.com/michaelh992/status/1690976789340790784
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Another reminder of what the bas**rds in the Kremlin are doing on a regular basis.
https://twitter.com/michaelh992/status/1690976789340790784
No doubt the resident Putinophile will let us know that it was storing weapons or that a Ukrainian air defence weapon did it. He will have proof of the latter but won’t post links to it!
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Another reminder of what the bas**rds in the Kremlin are doing on a regular basis.
https://twitter.com/michaelh992/status/1690976789340790784
No doubt the resident Putinophile will let us know that it was storing weapons or that a Ukrainian air defence weapon did it. He will have proof of the latter but won’t post links to it!
And no doubt Ukraine never fires shells and missiles into central city areas where there's no military. Bloody Russians, bet they're aligned with the Klingons, and Gengis Khan, and Rotherham.
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I was chatting to a colleague, from St Petersberg the other day. Who obviously is completely in disagreement with what the Kremlin/war in Ukraine. He is staggered why westen media use the word special in translating from russian, special military operations, special meeting, special interest rate rise. The correct translation into English he says is "Ad Hoc", which is more true and telling. Something done as a "necessity" without prior planning. So why does the westen media use "special", if anything it gives Russia more credability. Which they don't deserve.
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Another reminder of what the bas**rds in the Kremlin are doing on a regular basis.
https://twitter.com/michaelh992/status/1690976789340790784
No doubt the resident Putinophile will let us know that it was storing weapons or that a Ukrainian air defence weapon did it. He will have proof of the latter but won’t post links to it!
As you know, as has been evidenced by even Amnesty International, Ukraine stations its troops and armour amongst civilians. It's also true that various military hardware is manufactured in buildings, not grown in farms. Indeed the buildings they are in haven't got neon lights saying "Navy Drone's R Us" and are most likely to be squeezed into buildings away from the out of town industrial zones for many obvious reasons. It was said that part, or the main purpose of the Odessa attack was targetting the buildings where the navy drones were being manufactured, stored, armed.
Your interpretation, based purely on western establishment media vaguery I will presume - maybe you have evidence otherwise? - is that between eating Ukraine babies, Genghis Putin is directing his expensive weapons to target Petro and Kateryna playing chess and drinkiing vodka after their borsch tea.
So given the first paragraph above, and the Ukraine show of sending a great many navy drones at targets in the Black Sea, Petro and Kateryna are going to be vulnerable.
Meanwhile, explain the Ukraine targetting of civilians areas in Donetsk, for example?
None of this is okay, war is evil, nations flexing muscle are evil, nations bullying other nations into doing their dirty work is evil, the propaganda perpetuating all this is evil. If you think this is one sided, you are playing your minion role perfectly.
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Another reminder of what the bas**rds in the Kremlin are doing on a regular basis.
https://twitter.com/michaelh992/status/1690976789340790784
No doubt the resident Putinophile will let us know that it was storing weapons or that a Ukrainian air defence weapon did it. He will have proof of the latter but won’t post links to it!
As you know, as has been evidenced by even Amnesty International, Ukraine stations its troops and armour amongst civilians. It's also true that various military hardware is manufactured in buildings, not grown in farms. Indeed the buildings they are in haven't got neon lights saying "Navy Drone's R Us" and are most likely to be squeezed into buildings away from the out of town industrial zones for many obvious reasons. It was said that part, or the main purpose of the Odessa attack was targetting the buildings where the navy drones were being manufactured, stored, armed.
Your interpretation, based purely on western establishment media vaguery I will presume - maybe you have evidence otherwise? - is that between eating Ukraine babies, Genghis Putin is directing his expensive weapons to target Petro and Kateryna playing chess and drinkiing vodka after their borsch tea.
So given the first paragraph above, and the Ukraine show of sending a great many navy drones at targets in the Black Sea, Petro and Kateryna are going to be vulnerable.
Meanwhile, explain the Ukraine targetting of civilians areas in Donetsk, for example?
None of this is okay, war is evil, nations flexing muscle are evil, nations bullying other nations into doing their dirty work is evil, the propaganda perpetuating all this is evil. If you think this is one sided, you are playing your minion role perfectly.
And as I said in the last sentence the Putinophile won’t post links and guess what, no links
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Links to what? Amnesty International? Ukraine using navy drones? Putin eating babies? The BBC?
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There's a good few links out there of Putin killing babies.
I'm quite happy to start a crowd funder and send you out to the front line BRR.
Then you could just have to send us a daily blog, and you wouldn't need to have to find any links.
Are you up for it?
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Ps.
I'll drive you to the airport of your choice.
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From 2017
https://vk.com/wall-5158073_1145348?lang=en
Plenty of babies and kids killed by both, war is crap, eh? So long as people think there's no causes to war just monsters telling troops to invade, then wars will happen again and again. It's not how it is, except for the minions plugged into the BBC etc feeding the process.
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From 2017
https://vk.com/wall-5158073_1145348?lang=en
Plenty of babies and kids killed by both, war is crap, eh? So long as people think there's no causes to war just monsters telling troops to invade, then wars will happen again and again. It's not how it is, except for the minions plugged into the BBC etc feeding the process.
Yep wars is crap, but let’s not forget who started the war in the first place. And none of this would be happening if Russia had not illegally invaded a sovereign country.
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https://news.sky.com/story/ten-killed-in-private-jet-crash-north-of-moscow-wagner-leader-yevgeny-prigozhin-on-passenger-list-12946006
Well well well.
BRR. Any thoughts lol?,
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https://news.sky.com/story/ten-killed-in-private-jet-crash-north-of-moscow-wagner-leader-yevgeny-prigozhin-on-passenger-list-12946006
Well well well.
BRR. Any thoughts lol?,
If he was on that aircraft how did he not see something like this coming?
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https://news.sky.com/story/ten-killed-in-private-jet-crash-north-of-moscow-wagner-leader-yevgeny-prigozhin-on-passenger-list-12946006
Well well well.
BRR. Any thoughts lol?,
If he was on that aircraft how did he not see something like this coming?
He probably did and wasn't on it. Once again, probably mainly for internal consumption.
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It wasn't a plane crash ....... it was a special landing operation :lol:
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https://news.sky.com/story/ten-killed-in-private-jet-crash-north-of-moscow-wagner-leader-yevgeny-prigozhin-on-passenger-list-12946006
Well well well.
BRR. Any thoughts lol?,
Well he probably had a choice, airplane crash, window or tea. Took the airplane crash option. It was always going to happen once he backed down from going all the way to Moscow
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I wonder if a certain poster was a mechanic for the aircraft.
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Looking at the footage of the plane “crashing” it looks to me like it was shot down
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https://news.sky.com/story/ten-killed-in-private-jet-crash-north-of-moscow-wagner-leader-yevgeny-prigozhin-on-passenger-list-12946006
Well well well.
BRR. Any thoughts lol?,
If he was on that aircraft how did he not see something like this coming?
Aisle seat
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From twitter (loosely):
Putin to his henchman - 'what's the highest window we have?
Henchman - 'an airplane window'
Putin - 'I like it'
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Looking at the footage of the plane “crashing” it looks to me like it was shot down
Yeah, that ain't a "crash". It's been downed.
https://twitter.com/Osinttechnical/status/1694415014726111333?s=08
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Looking at the footage of the plane “crashing” it looks to me like it was shot down
Something catastrophic must've happened, it's plummeting straight down. Might have been an explosive device on board, I suppose.
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With Wagner in Belarus and Lukashenko, brokering the deal to stop the coup, where does this leave him, will Wagner rise against him?
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There's some footage of an air defence missile being launched....then it cuts to the footage above of the plane plummeting.
Allegedly a second jet, also owned by Prighozin took off shortly after this one but turned back to the airport.
Hmmmm.
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Likely that he was on the plane. Possible that Ukraine's shot it down. Possible that it was by order of Putin, and the Wagner number 2 was on board, probably others too that Putin may want out of the picture.
Could all be a smokescreen.
We'll see.
Noting Ukraine saying they'll mobilise another 200k, tho most likely will be double that. Russia will counter. The USA will sell (lend/lease) more armour, ammo.
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Just like a mafia hit but then, Putins Russia is a mafia state.
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I wonder if they put Navalny on that plane too?
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Putin needs a new chef.
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Likely that he was on the plane. Possible that Ukraine's shot it down. Possible that it was by order of Putin, and the Wagner number 2 was on board, probably others too that Putin may want out of the picture.
Could all be a smokescreen.
We'll see.
Noting Ukraine saying they'll mobilise another 200k, tho most likely will be double that. Russia will counter. The USA will sell (lend/lease) more armour, ammo.
Ukraine possibly shot it down…. That’s a hell of a shot from the best part of 500 kilometres away!
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"Possible that Ukraine shot it down"?
That has to be the single most stupid comment on this war. And Christ knows it's got some competition.
There's about as much chance that the big Monty Python foot came out of the clouds and squashed the plane.
It's more like 750km by the way, from the crash location to the nearest Ukraine border. The biggest SAM that I'm aware of is the colossal Russian S400. That has a maximum effective range of half that distance.
But yeah. Possible Ukraine shot it down. f**k me...
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With Wagner in Belarus and Lukashenko, brokering the deal to stop the coup, where does this leave him, will Wagner rise against him?
Could be Zaphod, only could be....
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/08/24/7416850/
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With Wagner in Belarus and Lukashenko, brokering the deal to stop the coup, where does this leave him, will Wagner rise against him?
Could be Zaphod, only could be....
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2023/08/24/7416850/
I've heard at least a majority are heading to Zaporzhia. Not what Ukraine propaganda will be publicising.
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"Possible that Ukraine shot it down"?
That has to be the single most stupid comment on this war. And Christ knows it's got some competition.
There's about as much chance that the big Monty Python foot came out of the clouds and squashed the plane.
It's more like 750km by the way, from the crash location to the nearest Ukraine border. The biggest SAM that I'm aware of is the colossal Russian S400. That has a maximum effective range of half that distance.
But yeah. Possible Ukraine shot it down. f**k me...
The bleeding obvious thought would be they would use a man pad from inside Russian territory.
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Bleeding and man pad. Hmm. That's about the most plausible theory you've come up with BRR. The Ukrainians downed it by throwing sanitary products at it.
Until that, I was more in favour of the theory that evil,magic fairies were to blame.
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Bleeding and man pad. Hmm. That's about the most plausible theory you've come up with BRR. The Ukrainians downed it by throwing sanitary products at it.
Until that, I was more in favour of the theory that evil,magic fairies were to blame.
Go on, explain how man pad isn't possible?
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Only if you can explain that the evil,magic fairies theory isn't possible.
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Bleeding and man pad. Hmm. That's about the most plausible theory you've come up with BRR. The Ukrainians downed it by throwing sanitary products at it.
Until that, I was more in favour of the theory that evil,magic fairies were to blame.
Go on, explain how man pad isn't possible?
A man pad is possible, but fired by whom? The big question is who fired it not whether it’s possible or not
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Kremlin has denied giving orders for plane to be shot down, that's it then time to look elsewhere.
How does the Kremlin know the plane was actually shot down?
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Black box flight recorder maybe?
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Kremlin has denied giving orders for plane to be shot down, that's it then time to look elsewhere.
How does the Kremlin know the plane was actually shot down?
Isn't the theory now, it was brought down by a bomb, hidden in a crate of what appeared to be vintage wine?
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Kremlin has denied giving orders for plane to be shot down, that's it then time to look elsewhere.
How does the Kremlin know the plane was actually shot down?
There were trails in the sky at the time and other signs in line with it being shot down.
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Only if you can explain that the evil,magic fairies theory isn't possible.
Shhhh....
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Bleeding and man pad. Hmm. That's about the most plausible theory you've come up with BRR. The Ukrainians downed it by throwing sanitary products at it.
Until that, I was more in favour of the theory that evil,magic fairies were to blame.
Go on, explain how man pad isn't possible?
A man pad is possible, but fired by whom? The big question is who fired it not whether it’s possible or not
Ukraines are able to get into Russia. Some used drones against targets deep in Russia, near Moscow (?) not long back, even filmed it. Similar happened on a few occasions.
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Bleeding and man pad. Hmm. That's about the most plausible theory you've come up with BRR. The Ukrainians downed it by throwing sanitary products at it.
Until that, I was more in favour of the theory that evil,magic fairies were to blame.
Go on, explain how man pad isn't possible?
A man pad is possible, but fired by whom? The big question is who fired it not whether it’s possible or not
Ukraines are able to get into Russia. Some used drones against targets deep in Russia, near Moscow (?) not long back, even filmed it. Similar happened on a few occasions.
Just because the Ukrainian have free roam of Russia does not mean they did it.
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Would they know the exact flight details in advance in order to get to a position to launch said missiles?
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Here's a question.
Why on earth WOULD Ukraine spend time and effort and resources killing Prigozhin?
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Here's a question.
Why on earth WOULD Ukraine spend time and effort and resources killing Prigozhin?
They wouldn't.
But Putin apologists will spend as much time and engery as possible in attempting to deflect attention from him & Russia's criminal acts. It's what they do.
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It's what they've always done Wilts. They are still to this day called Tankies, because their forerunners came up with 50 reasons why the Soviets were right to send tanks into Prague 55 years ago.
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Surely that's misspelt,it should be a W and not a T.
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Kremlin has denied giving orders for plane to be shot down, that's it then time to look elsewhere.
How does the Kremlin know the plane was actually shot down?
That’ll be the same Kremlin that said they had no intention of invading Ukraine, the same Kremlin that denied poisoning Navalny with Novichock, the same Kremlin that denied poisoning the Skripals with Novichock and murdering a British subject on British soil, the same Kremlin that denied Murdering Litvinenko with Polonium.
There seems to be a pattern emerging of the Relationship of the Russian state and the truth
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Bleeding and man pad. Hmm. That's about the most plausible theory you've come up with BRR. The Ukrainians downed it by throwing sanitary products at it.
Until that, I was more in favour of the theory that evil,magic fairies were to blame.
Go on, explain how man pad isn't possible?
A man pad is possible, but fired by whom? The big question is who fired it not whether it’s possible or not
Ukraines are able to get into Russia. Some used drones against targets deep in Russia, near Moscow (?) not long back, even filmed it. Similar happened on a few occasions.
Just because the Ukrainian have free roam of Russia does not mean they did it.
Not saying they did, just that's its perfectly possible. And I doubt Ukraine's have anything like free roam, but some can get in and hide out.
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Here's a question.
Why on earth WOULD Ukraine spend time and effort and resources killing Prigozhin?
Media good feeling. They hate him. Much propaganda about him instructing troops not to take prisoners ie shoot them. Some truth in that maybe, but Ukraine milked it, so gonna be good to kill him. Obviously.
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Here's a question.
Why on earth WOULD Ukraine spend time and effort and resources killing Prigozhin?
Media good feeling. They hate him. Much propaganda about him instructing troops not to take prisoners ie shoot them. Some truth in that maybe, but Ukraine milked it, so gonna be good to kill him. Obviously.
Mmm. It all sounds a bit desperate doesn't it BRR?
What is it about the regime of Putin you admire?
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Here's a question.
Why on earth WOULD Ukraine spend time and effort and resources killing Prigozhin?
Media good feeling. They hate him. Much propaganda about him instructing troops not to take prisoners ie shoot them. Some truth in that maybe, but Ukraine milked it, so gonna be good to kill him. Obviously.
Mmm. It all sounds a bit desperate doesn't it BRR?
What is it about the regime of Putin you admire?
I've got a sneaky feeling it's when he rides around bare chested and bare back riding a horse
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I doubt there is a single thing about Putins Russia the west could do to emulate
Not one.
He's a gangster. I feel so sorry for the Russian people.
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Here's a question.
Why on earth WOULD Ukraine spend time and effort and resources killing Prigozhin?
Media good feeling. They hate him. Much propaganda about him instructing troops not to take prisoners ie shoot them. Some truth in that maybe, but Ukraine milked it, so gonna be good to kill him. Obviously.
Mmm. It all sounds a bit desperate doesn't it BRR?
What is it about the regime of Putin you admire?
It's simple school playground level politics of the Far Left. Putin is against the EU and America. Therefore he shouldn't be strongly criticised.
It's "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" stuff. Allows them to conveniently ignore what a monster Putin is.
Corbyn's lot had a similar approach. When Assad gassed Syrians and Putin flattened Aleppo, the line from Corbyn's advisers was "Don't overplay this because it will take attention off the crimes of the West."
Absolutely idiotic, but the Far Left has been shot through with this stupidity for a century.
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I no longer believe in right and left.
There are moderates and extremists and that's it.
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Putin is a fascist.
I'll say that, straight up.
Given the chance I would slot him straight between the eyes.
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I no longer believe in right and left.
There are moderates and extremists and that's it.
I agree in as much as that the Far Left and Far Right merge in the Far Murk. There's still a sensible differentiatio0 between Right and Left in the less extreme parts of the arc.
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Here's a question.
Why on earth WOULD Ukraine spend time and effort and resources killing Prigozhin?
Media good feeling. They hate him. Much propaganda about him instructing troops not to take prisoners ie shoot them. Some truth in that maybe, but Ukraine milked it, so gonna be good to kill him. Obviously.
Mmm. It all sounds a bit desperate doesn't it BRR?
What is it about the regime of Putin you admire?
It's simple school playground level politics of the Far Left. Putin is against the EU and America. Therefore he shouldn't be strongly criticised.
It's "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" stuff. Allows them to conveniently ignore what a monster Putin is.
Corbyn's lot had a similar approach. When Assad gassed Syrians and Putin flattened Aleppo, the line from Corbyn's advisers was "Don't overplay this because it will take attention off the crimes of the West."
Absolutely idiotic, but the Far Left has been shot through with this stupidity for a century.
BST, this is a genuine question as you have regularly berated Corbyn in recent times.
If he was so bad, why did you campaign for him and vote so that he would become PM had Labour won the GE.
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Here's a question.
Why on earth WOULD Ukraine spend time and effort and resources killing Prigozhin?
Media good feeling. They hate him. Much propaganda about him instructing troops not to take prisoners ie shoot them. Some truth in that maybe, but Ukraine milked it, so gonna be good to kill him. Obviously.
Mmm. It all sounds a bit desperate doesn't it BRR?
What is it about the regime of Putin you admire?
Don't admire Putin, except noted he has been a very effective leader/figurehead over a long time. I admire how Russia has in the main not rolled over to the western elites, nor China.
Anyway, explain what you mean by desperate?
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Here's a question.
Why on earth WOULD Ukraine spend time and effort and resources killing Prigozhin?
Media good feeling. They hate him. Much propaganda about him instructing troops not to take prisoners ie shoot them. Some truth in that maybe, but Ukraine milked it, so gonna be good to kill him. Obviously.
Mmm. It all sounds a bit desperate doesn't it BRR?
What is it about the regime of Putin you admire?
I've got a sneaky feeling it's when he rides around bare chested and bare back riding a horse
Shhhhh, baby boy.
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Here's a question.
Why on earth WOULD Ukraine spend time and effort and resources killing Prigozhin?
Media good feeling. They hate him. Much propaganda about him instructing troops not to take prisoners ie shoot them. Some truth in that maybe, but Ukraine milked it, so gonna be good to kill him. Obviously.
Mmm. It all sounds a bit desperate doesn't it BRR?
What is it about the regime of Putin you admire?
It's simple school playground level politics of the Far Left. Putin is against the EU and America. Therefore he shouldn't be strongly criticised.
It's "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" stuff. Allows them to conveniently ignore what a monster Putin is.
Corbyn's lot had a similar approach. When Assad gassed Syrians and Putin flattened Aleppo, the line from Corbyn's advisers was "Don't overplay this because it will take attention off the crimes of the West."
Absolutely idiotic, but the Far Left has been shot through with this stupidity for a century.
Lots of generalising there from BST, someone who conveniently takes one side of an argument, sticks religiously to it, and ignores anything contrary to his dictate. He even consistently espouses the virtues of one sided, blinkered, "understanding", shooting down those who have other perspectives, and frequently being insulting, even potty mouthed in the process. He uses cherry picked "evidence" in a fashionable way, again shooting down rather than considering other evidence. He'll also disappear when the going gets tough. I wonder where he'd be on the scale of grounded considered compassion to controlling psychopath? Each to their own I suppose.
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Quote: "someone who conveniently takes one side of an argument, sticks religiously to it, and ignores anything contrary to his dictate"
Can you think of any other frequent poster on this thread BRR, who does the above?
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Quote: "someone who conveniently takes one side of an argument, sticks religiously to it, and ignores anything contrary to his dictate"
Can you think of any other frequent poster on this thread BRR, who does the above?
Are you agreeing with what I said with BST?
I'm always interested in all angles, and have been stating the ones that tend not to be on the side of the one sided western media narrative for balance.
As a very obvious example, many here referred to Russia running out of ammo from the early days, over a year ago, as per the Western media narrative/propaganda - that hasn't happened has it? Indeed Ukraine's lack of ammo is more of an issue. Resupplies for Ukraine are cited, but not the crucial detail of them being mainly in the distant future. One reason why the US has escalated things with supplying from its stocks of cluster shells - there wasn't an alternative.
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This is quite a good piece on the state of play regarding ammo. Apparently the rate of fire has been falling off for both sides.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2023/04/05/when-will-ammunition-shortage-silence-russias-artillery/?sh=24aa509d6d95
Obviously as a western media source it can't be trusted.
It is thought Russia has been supplied with additional ammo from Iran and North Korea. And since Russia is a dictatorship, Putin can order manufacturers to go into producing ammo for the state.
All this must be pretty ruinous for the Russian economy though.
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This is quite a good piece on the state of play regarding ammo. Apparently the rate of fire has been falling off for both sides.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2023/04/05/when-will-ammunition-shortage-silence-russias-artillery/?sh=24aa509d6d95
Obviously as a western media source it can't be trusted.
It is thought Russia has been supplied with additional ammo from Iran and North Korea. And since Russia is a dictatorship, Putin can order manufacturers to go into producing ammo for the state.
All this must be pretty ruinous for the Russian economy though.
Forbes "5 Leopard 2s detroyed, 10 damaged and being repaired"
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/08/28/in-13-weeks-ukraine-has-lost-just-five-of-its-71-leopard-2-tanks/
Here, evidence of 35 damaged/destroyed.
https://twitter.com/GeoTrackDK/status/1695752894107041823
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There are 100k Russian troops massed Near Eastern Ukraine, get ready for the Autumn ‘Meat Grinder’
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This is quite a good piece on the state of play regarding ammo. Apparently the rate of fire has been falling off for both sides.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2023/04/05/when-will-ammunition-shortage-silence-russias-artillery/?sh=24aa509d6d95
Obviously as a western media source it can't be trusted.
It is thought Russia has been supplied with additional ammo from Iran and North Korea. And since Russia is a dictatorship, Putin can order manufacturers to go into producing ammo for the state.
All this must be pretty ruinous for the Russian economy though.
Forbes "5 Leopard 2s detroyed, 10 damaged and being repaired"
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/08/28/in-13-weeks-ukraine-has-lost-just-five-of-its-71-leopard-2-tanks/
Here, evidence of 35 damaged/destroyed.
https://twitter.com/GeoTrackDK/status/1695752894107041823
I've looked at that a few times now yet still fail to see how that is evidence of 35 damaged or destroyed.
The Ukrainians admit that 5 have been destroyed and another 10 hit but being repaired.
Can you see something that I can't?
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Quote: &quot;someone who conveniently takes one side of an argument, sticks religiously to it, and ignores anything contrary to his dictate&quot;
Can you think of any other frequent poster on this thread BRR, who does the above?
Are you agreeing with what I said with BST?
I'm always interested in all angles, and have been stating the ones that tend not to be on the side of the one sided western media narrative for balance.
As a very obvious example, many here referred to Russia running out of ammo from the early days, over a year ago, as per the Western media narrative/propaganda - that hasn't happened has it? Indeed Ukraine's lack of ammo is more of an issue. Resupplies for Ukraine are cited, but not the crucial detail of them being mainly in the distant future. One reason why the US has escalated things with supplying from its stocks of cluster shells - there wasn't an alternative.
For balance I provide one side of an argument.
Hmmmm....
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Are Russia getting short of weapons?
https://english.kyodonews.net/news/2023/08/54a2f12d1a6e-russia-has-moved-missiles-off-isles-disputed-with-japan-expert.html
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Russia buying back arms sent to India & Myanmar
https://asia.nikkei.com/Politics/Ukraine-war/Russia-buying-back-arms-parts-exported-to-Myanmar-and-India
https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/06/05/russia-buys-back-military-parts-exported-to-asia-a81399
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The madness of Pride eh?
The low grade street corner thug in the Kremlin genuinely thought he could give his neighbour a kicking in a few days. When his neighbour smacked him back, his poor, pathetic ego was so hurt he's incapable of doing the sensible thing. So this grinds on, chewing up and spitting out more lives and money. Because the man-child in the Kremlin cannot face losing face. Whatever the cost to his own people.
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Quote: &amp;quot;someone who conveniently takes one side of an argument, sticks religiously to it, and ignores anything contrary to his dictate&amp;quot;
Can you think of any other frequent poster on this thread BRR, who does the above?
Are you agreeing with what I said with BST?
I'm always interested in all angles, and have been stating the ones that tend not to be on the side of the one sided western media narrative for balance.
As a very obvious example, many here referred to Russia running out of ammo from the early days, over a year ago, as per the Western media narrative/propaganda - that hasn't happened has it? Indeed Ukraine's lack of ammo is more of an issue. Resupplies for Ukraine are cited, but not the crucial detail of them being mainly in the distant future. One reason why the US has escalated things with supplying from its stocks of cluster shells - there wasn't an alternative.
For balance I provide one side of an argument.
Hmmmm....
I referred to one sode where it was said Russia would run out of shells, missiles etc a year ago (or so), and the obvious is that they haven't. What point are you making?
See also the post re Forbes - I gave the link to tanks destroyed etc. Make your own conclusion, including whether or not Forbes is promoting a misleading pro western perspective or not.
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The madness of Pride eh?
The low grade street corner thug in the Kremlin genuinely thought he could give his neighbour a kicking in a few days. When his neighbour smacked him back, his poor, pathetic ego was so hurt he's incapable of doing the sensible thing. So this grinds on, chewing up and spitting out more lives and money. Because the man-child in the Kremlin cannot face losing face. Whatever the cost to his own people.
Such a pathetic weak tabloid narrative that focuses on the man in this instance, not to mention the western powers that were about to encroach on Russias borders.
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This is quite a good piece on the state of play regarding ammo. Apparently the rate of fire has been falling off for both sides.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidhambling/2023/04/05/when-will-ammunition-shortage-silence-russias-artillery/?sh=24aa509d6d95
Obviously as a western media source it can't be trusted.
It is thought Russia has been supplied with additional ammo from Iran and North Korea. And since Russia is a dictatorship, Putin can order manufacturers to go into producing ammo for the state.
All this must be pretty ruinous for the Russian economy though.
Forbes &quot;5 Leopard 2s detroyed, 10 damaged and being repaired&quot;
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/08/28/in-13-weeks-ukraine-has-lost-just-five-of-its-71-leopard-2-tanks/
Here, evidence of 35 damaged/destroyed.
https://twitter.com/GeoTrackDK/status/1695752894107041823
I've looked at that a few times now yet still fail to see how that is evidence of 35 damaged or destroyed.
The Ukrainians admit that 5 have been destroyed and another 10 hit but being repaired.
Can you see something that I can't?
Sorry yes, wrong link. The info is in his posts, see from here, scroll down.
https://twitter.com/GeoTrackDK
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The madness of Pride eh?
The low grade street corner thug in the Kremlin genuinely thought he could give his neighbour a kicking in a few days. When his neighbour smacked him back, his poor, pathetic ego was so hurt he's incapable of doing the sensible thing. So this grinds on, chewing up and spitting out more lives and money. Because the man-child in the Kremlin cannot face losing face. Whatever the cost to his own people.
Such a pathetic weak tabloid narrative that focuses on the man in this instance, not to mention the western powers that were about to encroach on Russias borders.
Could anybody in their right mind think that NATO would ever invade Russia?
The cost in human lives and materials would be prohibitive and the UN would never have backed it happening.
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The madness of Pride eh?
The low grade street corner thug in the Kremlin genuinely thought he could give his neighbour a kicking in a few days. When his neighbour smacked him back, his poor, pathetic ego was so hurt he's incapable of doing the sensible thing. So this grinds on, chewing up and spitting out more lives and money. Because the man-child in the Kremlin cannot face losing face. Whatever the cost to his own people.
Such a pathetic weak tabloid narrative that focuses on the man in this instance, not to mention the western powers that were about to encroach on Russias borders.
Could anybody in their right mind think that NATO would ever invade Russia?
The cost in human lives and materials would be prohibitive and the UN would never have backed it happening.
I know one person on this thread that does!
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In the next 50 or 100 years, NATO forces will not set a toe end in Russia.
Claiming that as a casus belli for Putin's thuggish aggression is simply disgusting. It's the result of a mind scrambled by Kremlin propaganda.
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Quote: &amp;amp;quot;someone who conveniently takes one side of an argument, sticks religiously to it, and ignores anything contrary to his dictate&amp;amp;quot;
Can you think of any other frequent poster on this thread BRR, who does the above?
Are you agreeing with what I said with BST?
I'm always interested in all angles, and have been stating the ones that tend not to be on the side of the one sided western media narrative for balance.
As a very obvious example, many here referred to Russia running out of ammo from the early days, over a year ago, as per the Western media narrative/propaganda - that hasn't happened has it? Indeed Ukraine's lack of ammo is more of an issue. Resupplies for Ukraine are cited, but not the crucial detail of them being mainly in the distant future. One reason why the US has escalated things with supplying from its stocks of cluster shells - there wasn't an alternative.
For balance I provide one side of an argument.
Hmmmm....
I referred to one sode where it was said Russia would run out of shells, missiles etc a year ago (or so), and the obvious is that they haven't. What point are you making?
See also the post re Forbes - I gave the link to tanks destroyed etc. Make your own conclusion, including whether or not Forbes is promoting a misleading pro western perspective or not.
The point I am making is that you are not providing balance in your posts - despite you saying you are providing balance in your posts.
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Quote: &amp;amp;amp;quot;someone who conveniently takes one side of an argument, sticks religiously to it, and ignores anything contrary to his dictate&amp;amp;amp;quot;
Can you think of any other frequent poster on this thread BRR, who does the above?
Are you agreeing with what I said with BST?
I'm always interested in all angles, and have been stating the ones that tend not to be on the side of the one sided western media narrative for balance.
As a very obvious example, many here referred to Russia running out of ammo from the early days, over a year ago, as per the Western media narrative/propaganda - that hasn't happened has it? Indeed Ukraine's lack of ammo is more of an issue. Resupplies for Ukraine are cited, but not the crucial detail of them being mainly in the distant future. One reason why the US has escalated things with supplying from its stocks of cluster shells - there wasn't an alternative.
For balance I provide one side of an argument.
Hmmmm....
I referred to one sode where it was said Russia would run out of shells, missiles etc a year ago (or so), and the obvious is that they haven't. What point are you making?
See also the post re Forbes - I gave the link to tanks destroyed etc. Make your own conclusion, including whether or not Forbes is promoting a misleading pro western perspective or not.
The point I am making is that you are not providing balance in your posts - despite you saying you are providing balance in your posts.
Balance in the discusson here.
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In the next 50 or 100 years, NATO forces will not set a toe end in Russia.
Claiming that as a casus belli for Putin's thuggish aggression is simply disgusting. It's the result of a mind scrambled by Kremlin propaganda.
The general agreement was for NATO not to go east, they did, Even if you don't believe that agreement matters, having missiles in Ukraine, closer to key strike points is at the very least a threat. I seem too recall something parallel in Cuba?
As for anyone being crazy enough to go that extra mile, we're hanging around that mark now - from both sides. Some Russian generals reported to have suggested a tactical nuke "to save lives" - sound familiar? And there are many in the US who fancy a shot too, some of whom are in power.
To be believing in the sanity of NATO is naiive. More so when you see that it's merely a front for the US. It would be the US with the missiles in Ukraine.
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BRR
Do you actually think Putin is actually in anyway a socialist? I must confess, your stance on all this is incomprehensible to me.
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BRR
Do you actually think Putin is actually in anyway a socialist? I must confess, your stance on all this is incomprehensible to me.
Interested to hear what you see my stance as?
Putin is pretty much just another leader, heading a country's mafiosa elite. To be clear, Sunak is blatently the same, and I can't think of a leader who isn't.
He's far from a socialist. He is clearly a league or two above most European leaders in ability, nouse, intellect, including our pathetic offerings of recent. I'm not sure the Yank leaders, well the faces we're given, are even in a league. Zelensky is conference south at best, clearly just a manufactured stooge, by the US.
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To be honest with you BRR I can't fathom your stance. So you admire Putin? Is that it?
You acknowledge he's a brute but he's a more succesful brute, or a more intelligent brute. And you admire that?
It's quite an impassioned defence of just another mafia Don isn't it?
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I've given this sometime and I have to admit BRR, I don't think you're answer really cuts it.
I think there must be something more but you don't feel able to share it. Without a coherent response it's very difficult to understand your point of view.
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To be honest with you BRR I can't fathom your stance. So you admire Putin? Is that it?
You acknowledge he's a brute but he's a more succesful brute, or a more intelligent brute. And you admire that?
It's quite an impassioned defence of just another mafia Don isn't it?
No where did I say I admired him. That's in your head. I acknowledge his intellect etc but as I clearly said, and ignored, he's one more mafiosa boss, along with so so many others. He's less of an obvious shallow figurehead for stringpullers than the likes of Biden, Sunak, and especially Zelensky etc. That doesn't make me "admire" him. There's plenty of in your face bullies in this world, they're all scum.
I think that will still leave you lost? Is your stuckness in the place of "if someone isn't buying the glorious Western freedom" or whatever, they must be supporting the enemies that the tabloids, the mass media tell us about daily. "Putin eats babies".
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I've given this sometime and I have to admit BRR, I don't think you're answer really cuts it.
I think there must be something more but you don't feel able to share it. Without a coherent response it's very difficult to understand your point of view.
You have to ask a coherent question. Simple.
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To be honest with you BRR I can't fathom your stance. So you admire Putin? Is that it?
You acknowledge he's a brute but he's a more succesful brute, or a more intelligent brute. And you admire that?
It's quite an impassioned defence of just another mafia Don isn't it?
No where did I say I admired him. That's in your head. I acknowledge his intellect etc but as I clearly said, and ignored, he's one more mafiosa boss, along with so so many others. He's less of an obvious shallow figurehead for stringpullers than the likes of Biden, Sunak, and especially Zelensky etc. That doesn't make me "admire" him. There's plenty of in your face bullies in this world, they're all scum.
I think that will still leave you lost? Is your stuckness in the place of "if someone isn't buying the glorious Western freedom" or whatever, they must be supporting the enemies that the tabloids, the mass media tell us about daily. "Putin eats babies".
Yeah right.
I'd still rather live in the UK than Russia.
And if there were free elections in Russia tomorrow, I don't doubt for a millisecond they would chuck Putin out.
Here is a simple coherent question. Why would you prefer to live in Russia than the UK?
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RD, ignoring what I post and playing Fox News sensationalism isnt communication as we know it, nor is it going to help you understand.
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I don't think BRR likes being analysed RD.
His/her mission in life is to peddle Putin guff but when you challenge him/her on these matters there is plenty of evasion and no substance.
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I don't think BRR likes being analysed RD.
His/her mission in life is to peddle Putin guff but when you challenge him/her on these matters there is plenty of evasion and no substance.
you missed out they/them - to cover all bases....
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Quote: &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;someone who conveniently takes one side of an argument, sticks religiously to it, and ignores anything contrary to his dictate&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;
Can you think of any other frequent poster on this thread BRR, who does the above?
Are you agreeing with what I said with BST?
I'm always interested in all angles, and have been stating the ones that tend not to be on the side of the one sided western media narrative for balance.
As a very obvious example, many here referred to Russia running out of ammo from the early days, over a year ago, as per the Western media narrative/propaganda - that hasn't happened has it? Indeed Ukraine's lack of ammo is more of an issue. Resupplies for Ukraine are cited, but not the crucial detail of them being mainly in the distant future. One reason why the US has escalated things with supplying from its stocks of cluster shells - there wasn't an alternative.
For balance I provide one side of an argument.
Hmmmm....
I referred to one sode where it was said Russia would run out of shells, missiles etc a year ago (or so), and the obvious is that they haven't. What point are you making?
See also the post re Forbes - I gave the link to tanks destroyed etc. Make your own conclusion, including whether or not Forbes is promoting a misleading pro western perspective or not.
The point I am making is that you are not providing balance in your posts - despite you saying you are providing balance in your posts.
Balance in the discusson here.
Yet you criticise other people for giving the opposite view to you? Surely now you should be asking everyone to give the opposite view to you? For balance.
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Yet you criticise other people for giving the opposite view to you? Surely now you should be asking everyone to give the opposite view to you? For balance.
It's called discussion.
The BBC already asks you, effectively so, to have an unquestioning anti Russian pro Ukraine, pro US, pro UK, pro NATO etc etc stance.
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I don't think BRR likes being analysed RD.
His/her mission in life is to peddle Putin guff but when you challenge him/her on these matters there is plenty of evasion and no substance.
Oh but I love analysis! So if you have something to say, do be specific rather than vague with no substance.
And on that, in analysis it's well known that what you say in a reactive situation is mostly about your own issues, as you demonstrate it seems?
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I don't think BRR likes being analysed RD.
His/her mission in life is to peddle Putin guff but when you challenge him/her on these matters there is plenty of evasion and no substance.
Oh but I love analysis! So if you have something to say, do be specific rather than vague with no substance.
And on that, in analysis it's well known that what you say in a reactive situation is mostly about your own issues, as you demonstrate it seems?
The irony is strong in this one, he managed to say all that without even batting an eyelid!!
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''Rustem Umerov: who is Ukraine’s next defence minister?''
''Umerov was born in Soviet Uzbekistan, the country his family had been exiled to under Stalin, and moved back to Crimea in Ukraine as a child when the Tatars were allowed to return in the 1980s and 1990s .......
....... Since annexing the peninsula in 2014, Russia has persecuted Crimea’s Tatars, who account for 12-15% of its 2 million residents. Most continue to support Ukraine.
Umerov’s appointment is a clear signal that Kyiv is determined to expel Russia and its occupying forces from Crimea, defence ministry sources suggest. Some of Ukraine’s western allies including the US are privately sceptical about the feasibility of this ambition .............
......... The Crimean Tatars were once the biggest ethnic group in Crimea. Successive rulers in Moscow persecuted them, beginning with Catherine the Great in the late 18th century, and including Stalin, who in 1944 ordered the deportation of the entire Tatar population. After Vladimir Putin’s illegal takeover of Crimea, harassment, arrests and disappearances of Tatars resumed''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/04/rustem-umerov-who-is-ukraine-new-next-defence-minister
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First dead Challenger report - could well be more. Next up Russians will capture one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTZdc37qZig
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Can't possibly be true, BRR, BBC are reporting it.
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First dead Challenger report - could well be more. Next up Russians will capture one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTZdc37qZig
And the crew survived.
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First dead Challenger report - could well be more. Next up Russians will capture one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTZdc37qZig
And the crew survived.
Which is entirely the aim with Western armoured vehicles. You can replace platforms far more easily than you can replace trained crew. The Russian tanks by contrast have been awful at protecting crew. And many, many, many times more of them than Ukraine ones have been destroyed.
You'd think BRR would comment on that, given his commitment to the truth.
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I have never heard anybody claim that the Challenger 2 was invincible, but it does seem to be the best tank in the world. It’s a pity we stopped making them , there’s a market out there,
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From Twitter/X BBC’s Jonathon Beale
Challenger 2 in #Ukraine hit a mine - which immobilised it. Mine explosion caused a fire in rear fuel tank - at which point crew evacuated. Immobilised empty #Challenger2 was then targeted by #Russia Lancet drone - all according to western Def source
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Which is entirely the aim with Western armoured vehicles. You can replace platforms far more easily than you can replace trained crew. The Russian tanks by contrast have been awful at protecting crew. And many, many, many times more of them than Ukraine ones have been destroyed.
You'd think BRR would comment on that, given his commitment to the truth.
A bit over characteristically excitable there BST, even with the pro western propaganda you feed off.
...and then you talk about truth?
Notably, no evidence yet of the crew having survived, not that I doubt that.
With around half of the supplied Leopards dead, or returned to their cages, Ukraine had to throw in the Challengers for this desperate final throw of the dice in the "Greatest ever Ukraine counter attack".
So far for maybe 50k losses of troops, and a huge loss of armour, Ukraine has gained a few fields overall. Next up a mobilisation of the diseased, 17 year olds, and men who left the Ukraine to avoid fighting and being slaughtered. The strategy has to be questioned.
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I have never heard anybody claim that the Challenger 2 was invincible, but it does seem to be the best tank in the world. It’s a pity we stopped making them , there’s a market out there,
Different tanks suit different condistions. Like the Abrahm and to a lesser extent the Leopard, the Challenger is very heavy which makes it difficult to cross small bridges for example. Getting stuck deeper in the coming mud will probably rule it out of the battlefield for longer than the Russian tanks.
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First dead Challenger report - could well be more. Next up Russians will capture one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTZdc37qZig
Hope they're gonna pay for it
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"So far for maybe 50k losses of troops, and a huge loss of armour"
Is this evidence, BRR or just your perverted wishful thinking?
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Great leader, Putin is, no?
https://twitter.com/irgarner/status/1699083248083636489
Quiz question. Which other psychologically fragile, low grade thug took over a shattered empire and told them stories about Jews being to blame?
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Great leader, Putin is, no?
https://twitter.com/irgarner/status/1699083248083636489
Quiz question. Which other psychologically fragile, low grade thug took over a shattered empire and told them stories about Jews being to blame?
Ukraine has been well known for it's anti semitism over the years. It's well evidenced and documented. More recently there is a lot of evidence of Nazi lovers in the Ukraine forces, and beyond. You know this.
So Putin was saying how the US puppet in power was partly used as a cover up attempt on this. Seems fair enough to me as a perspective to look at. I didn't hear anything against Jews.
But then you are someone who saw Corbyn as a raging anti semite. Nuff said.
Actually one of the points here when you post what you did is that you create a fog of what anti semitism is, including linking Putin to Hitler in this case. There is no comparison, your argument is twisted, much like the twisted arguments against Corbyn and many others. You play the special case to Jews whereby you don't treat them equally. THIS breeds real anti semitism. It's perverse and shameful.
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"So far for maybe 50k losses of troops, and a huge loss of armour"
Is this evidence, BRR or just your perverted wishful thinking?
It's what I can gather from what is seen - eg many Ukraine units withdrawn from the front to restock with the new conscripts after losing battle capability, like with half of a force of 4000 lost, plus half their armour. it's happened a lot.
What numbers do you think are being lost where troops are being pumelled by Russian artillery and drones as they relentlessly push their way across the same few fields to try and satisfy their western sponsors?
Yes, Russia has lost many too at times, notably in taking Bakhmut, but especially over the last 3 months, Ukraine has thrown so many in fruitless attacks. Russian tactics are more to keep their troops in safer more protected situations, hence their tactic of stepping back a few hundred yards when tropps are vulnerable. Of course they still have losses, but the tendancy is that Ukraine is losing far more than Russia, armour and manpower. 50k losses in 3 months is a ball park figure but not far off.
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So, facts aren't remotely important to you. Just your twisted wishlist.
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Have you noticed?
When Russia first started chucking missiles into civilian areas, their useful idiots like BRR immediately jumped in and spewed out the Kremlin line that it was a precision attack on a NATO munitions dump. Like a ventriloquist dummy with Putin's hand up their arse.
Now, everyone is so brutalised and numbed by what Russia does on a daily basis that the useful idiots don't have the energy to keep jumping in with their lines.
This was today.
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1699403565419155738
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That's absolutely horrific!
Nobody can defend that barbaric murder,unless it's like some kind of perverse porn for them.
Let's see what he has to say.
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Have you noticed?
When Russia first started chucking missiles into civilian areas, their useful idiots like BRR immediately jumped in and spewed out the Kremlin line that it was a precision attack on a NATO munitions dump. Like a ventriloquist dummy with Putin's hand up their arse.
Now, everyone is so brutalised and numbed by what Russia does on a daily basis that the useful idiots don't have the energy to keep jumping in with their lines.
This was today.
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1699403565419155738
Never one admission or condemnation of one of the many Ukraine *deliberate* attacks on civilians from Billy Blinkers.
On those recent civilian deaths, I don't know the full story, neother does Billy, though he'll leap to his reactive conclusions as usual. One story I heard, and evidenced by reflections in that vid, and where people are looking immediately before the explosion (ie probs tracking the incoming) suggests the missile was coming from the western direction, ie from Ukraine. Google this and you will find info.
eg https://twitter.com/JulianRoepcke/status/1699450596149878983
Why would that be? For one, Ukraine has no track record of caring for its people. This was immediately before the final part of the US sec of state's visit. Ukraine desperate to get all the help from the West it can, and the US also wantng to keep public opinion on it's side.
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So, facts aren't remotely important to you. Just your twisted wishlist.
Vague
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I have never heard anybody claim that the Challenger 2 was invincible, but it does seem to be the best tank in the world. It’s a pity we stopped making them , there’s a market out there,
It's the rifled gun isn't it, that means it uses none standard ammo? Acurate but different, which is a logistical nightmare. In this kind of attritional warfare you can't afford such complexity.
Also the very good but heavy armour makes it slow. I wonder if they shouldn't have traded off more protection for manouverability?
I'm basically talking out of my arse here having only read a couple of articles online. I'm happy to be put right.
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https://www.minusrus.com/en?__cf_chl_tk=YJhP7Wlif36HSzGsUQIuLw06l2uWZQE3ADfxDqESZu0-1677656834-0-gaNycGzNCvs
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https://www.minusrus.com/en?__cf_chl_tk=YJhP7Wlif36HSzGsUQIuLw06l2uWZQE3ADfxDqESZu0-1677656834-0-gaNycGzNCvs
More Russian manpower, tank, artillery losses than they have. Interesting.
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https://www.minusrus.com/en?__cf_chl_tk=YJhP7Wlif36HSzGsUQIuLw06l2uWZQE3ADfxDqESZu0-1677656834-0-gaNycGzNCvs
More Russian manpower, tank, artillery losses than they have. Interesting.
Russia naturally has the weight of numbers. Maybe is scale enough?
But then they are up against a much larger foe. The entire West. I see the rubble *sorry ruble is still crumbling....
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RD, ignoring what I post and playing Fox News sensationalism isnt communication as we know it, nor is it going to help you understand.
Just to be clear I don't know what platform I would need to see Fox News... But I can assure you the only broadcaster I pay money to is the BBC.
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The main point here is even if the Ukrainians were dying on their knees in the dust... They are still worth supporting. if you are democratic.
Their biggest fear is an unscrupulous character like Trump will be elected, who will sell them out.
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''20 Days in Mariupol''
''US and UK holding UN screening of documentary on Russia’s siege of Ukrainian city of Mariupol''
''UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The United States and Britain have invited ambassadors, journalists and representatives of a broad spectrum of society to a U.N. screening of the award-winning documentary “20 Days in Mariupol,” which follows a trio of Associated Press journalists during Russia’s relentless siege of the Ukrainian port city in the early days of the war.
UK Ambassador Barbara Woodward said the Monday evening screening at U.N. headquarters is important because “Russia’s invasion of Ukraine threatens what the U.N. stands for: an international order where the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries is fundamental.”''
https://apnews.com/article/mariupol-documentary-un-russia-ukraine-screening-d3e0682d71718b469510ffa52da13236
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This could be costly for Putin and a first got the UA
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1701774908403904799.html
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This could be costly for Putin and a first got the UA
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1701774908403904799.html
A Moscow spokes said 'there was a small fire in a waste bin and we have advised all port workers to take more care with their cigarette butts'
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''20 Days in Mariupol''
''US and UK holding UN screening of documentary on Russia’s siege of Ukrainian city of Mariupol''
''UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The United States and Britain have invited ambassadors, journalists and representatives of a broad spectrum of society to a U.N. screening of the award-winning documentary “20 Days in Mariupol,” which follows a trio of Associated Press journalists during Russia’s relentless siege of the Ukrainian port city in the early days of the war.
UK Ambassador Barbara Woodward said the Monday evening screening at U.N. headquarters is important because “Russia’s invasion of Ukraine threatens what the U.N. stands for: an international order where the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries is fundamental.”''
https://apnews.com/article/mariupol-documentary-un-russia-ukraine-screening-d3e0682d71718b469510ffa52da13236
Do you think Woodward was also aware of the many invasions of international recognised borders the US and even the UK has waded through, and the sovereignty interfered with by the US? Has she been flown home yet?
Not seen the docu yet, but it is made by Ukrainians. Do you think they may have had a bias?
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It seems the Russian 1430 Motorized Brigade with their state-of-the-art(?) T55 tanks, no longer exists. Near Robotyne, they encountered Ukrainian Leopard II tanks. In a mine-free area, the Leopards and the T55’s clashed and the T55’s were hit without having a chance to counter attack or even to fire back, according to PStyle01 on Twitter, (or X if you prefer the new name).
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''20 Days in Mariupol''
''US and UK holding UN screening of documentary on Russia’s siege of Ukrainian city of Mariupol''
''UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The United States and Britain have invited ambassadors, journalists and representatives of a broad spectrum of society to a U.N. screening of the award-winning documentary “20 Days in Mariupol,” which follows a trio of Associated Press journalists during Russia’s relentless siege of the Ukrainian port city in the early days of the war.
UK Ambassador Barbara Woodward said the Monday evening screening at U.N. headquarters is important because “Russia’s invasion of Ukraine threatens what the U.N. stands for: an international order where the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries is fundamental.”''
https://apnews.com/article/mariupol-documentary-un-russia-ukraine-screening-d3e0682d71718b469510ffa52da13236
Do you think Woodward was also aware of the many invasions of international recognised borders the US and even the UK has waded through, and the sovereignty interfered with by the US? Has she been flown home yet?
Not seen the docu yet, but it is made by Ukrainians. Do you think they may have had a bias?
Do you think if the Russians did one it wouldn’t be bias?
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A very interesting two part documentary.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m001qh04/living-next-door-to-putin
Millions of lives around Europe and beyond affected by one paranoid dictator.
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A very interesting two part documentary.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m001qh04/living-next-door-to-putin
Millions of lives around Europe and beyond affected by one paranoid dictator.
“pRoPaGaNdA”
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''20 Days in Mariupol''
''US and UK holding UN screening of documentary on Russia’s siege of Ukrainian city of Mariupol''
''UNITED NATIONS (AP) — The United States and Britain have invited ambassadors, journalists and representatives of a broad spectrum of society to a U.N. screening of the award-winning documentary “20 Days in Mariupol,” which follows a trio of Associated Press journalists during Russia’s relentless siege of the Ukrainian port city in the early days of the war.
UK Ambassador Barbara Woodward said the Monday evening screening at U.N. headquarters is important because “Russia’s invasion of Ukraine threatens what the U.N. stands for: an international order where the sovereignty and territorial integrity of all countries is fundamental.”''
https://apnews.com/article/mariupol-documentary-un-russia-ukraine-screening-d3e0682d71718b469510ffa52da13236
Do you think Woodward was also aware of the many invasions of international recognised borders the US and even the UK has waded through, and the sovereignty interfered with by the US? Has she been flown home yet?
Not seen the docu yet, but it is made by Ukrainians. Do you think they may have had a bias?
Do you think if the Russians did one it wouldn’t be bias?
Probably. Sad you can't reply to a question without hiding.
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Going back to March '22 and the Ankara peacxe agreement process with the Israeli Prime Minister and Turkish diplomats, engaged with by both Putin and Zelensky, and the German Chancellor and Biden.
Here Jeffrey Sachs said that an agreement had reached it's 7th draft when the US State Department intervened to stop it on the basis that they had decided it would show their weakness to China (re Taiwan issue). That puts an extra spin on things.
3 min vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBDqrDCEIw0
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For all those of you who like a bit of contrast to the sycophantic western media reguritations, this guy is interesting and has a fab sense of humour. Even that Billy bloke on here might like him :clapping:
https://www.youtube.com/@smoothieX12/
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The Ukranian attack on the Russian navy at Sebastopol last week was quite breathtaking.
Basically means that, without a peace settlement that us acceptable to Ukraine, the Russians don't have a safe mooring for whatever is left of their Black Sea fleet.
And in parallel, as if to rub in the impotence of Russia, grain shipments from Ukrainian Black Sea ports have recommenced.
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An interesting article from the NYT.
"Evidence Suggests Ukrainian Missile Caused Market Tragedy"
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/09/18/world/europe/ukraine-missile-kostiantynivka-market.html
Ukraine of course still denies it being their air defence malfunction. No doubt people here will still say this is still due to Russia invading - true enough, however it's important to know about the incidents that are considered as attacks on civilians.
From the BBC report, "President Zelensky has condemned a "deliberate" attack on Ukraine's "peaceful city" of Kostyantynivka...... Mr Zelensky described the attack as "utter inhumanity", while his wife Olena Zelenska said it showed "horrific cruelty".
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Interesting to see the apparent sudden turns today re Poland's support for Ukraine - see BBC - partly due to elections coming up.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66882161
There's similar in other countries. Maybe a blip, but I wonder in what way, and how quickly this whole situation could unravel? Russia likely to increase its action in coming months and with time passing Ukraine's bargaining chips look likely to be running lower.
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Zelensky and Trudeau celebrating a Nazi in the Canadian House of Commons. Whoopsie!
https://torontosun.com/news/local-news/warmington-a-nazi-being-cheered-in-the-house-of-commons-a-dark-day
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It seems that nobody, or almost nobody realised that he had fought against Russia for the Germans when they cheered him.
An own goal certainly but at least I imagine they will apologise now whereas Russia transmits falsities unashamedly on a regular basis insisting that it is the truth.
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It's not as simple as every person fighting fotlr Germany in the war was of the extreme persuasion some may twist it as. Impossible to know his individual circumstance.
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It's not as simple as every person fighting fotlr Germany in the war was of the extreme persuasion some may twist it as. Impossible to know his individual circumstance.
Fighting for Hitler. Of course it could be said that he was brainwashed into that, just as these fans of FC Karpaty Lyiv were in 2013, with the banner of that Galician SS Division held high and proud.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Galician)#/media/File:SS-Galizien-Banner.jpg
I'm not saying all Ukraines are Nazis, of course they're not, but there are a lot who still give homage to Nazi and very right wings organisations. Much of the protests that kicked off all this Ukraine problem on the ground were, at best, heavily influenced by ultra right wingers where there is a long history of Nazi affiliation.
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https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/why-putin-calling-ukrainian-government-bunch-nazis?ssp=1&setlang=en-GB&safesearch=moderate
Far right groups got 2% of the vote in Ukraine so what is the relevance with this in terms of the invasion?
Or are you buying Putin’s “denazification campaign”?
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It seems that nobody, or almost nobody realised that he had fought against Russia for the Germans when they cheered him.
An own goal certainly but at least I imagine they will apologise now whereas Russia transmits falsities unashamedly on a regular basis insisting that it is the truth.
They anounced him as fighting for Ukrainian independance against the Russians. I suppose it's possible no one realised it was the Nazis fighting the Russians - it was a long time ago.
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https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/why-putin-calling-ukrainian-government-bunch-nazis?ssp=1&setlang=en-GB&safesearch=moderate
Far right groups got 2% of the vote in Ukraine so what is the relevance with this in terms of the invasion?
Or are you buying Putin’s “denazification campaign”?
It is argued that the far right did influence the demos - plenty of vids showing that - as well as are in parliament, mainstream parties. Then we saw the Azov troops. Anyway, that influenece is undoubedly there.
No, I don't see Ukraine as Nazi. It is run by gangsters, as is Russia and in a more paletable way, so is the Uk and US, and practically every nation. "Democracy" is about votes, not who is in power, who pulls the strings, who takes the wealth. Just because people vote for "Jo" rather than "Jim", doesn't mean they are getting "Jo" making the decisions, directing the policy. "Democracy" is a tool of the elite, the gangsters. Ukraine stands out in this way. It's sad that people the world over fall for this mush of crumbs thrown to the masses.
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https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/why-putin-calling-ukrainian-government-bunch-nazis?ssp=1&setlang=en-GB&safesearch=moderate
Far right groups got 2% of the vote in Ukraine so what is the relevance with this in terms of the invasion?
Or are you buying Putin’s “denazification campaign”?
And using the ADL as a back up for anything? Really?
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https://www.adl.org/resources/blog/why-putin-calling-ukrainian-government-bunch-nazis?ssp=1&setlang=en-GB&safesearch=moderate
Far right groups got 2% of the vote in Ukraine so what is the relevance with this in terms of the invasion?
Or are you buying Putin’s “denazification campaign”?
It is argued that the far right did influence the demos - plenty of vids showing that - as well as are in parliament, mainstream parties. Then we saw the Azov troops. Anyway, that influenece is undoubedly there.
No, I don't see Ukraine as Nazi. It is run by gangsters, as is Russia and in a more paletable way, so is the Uk and US, and practically every nation. "Democracy" is about votes, not who is in power, who pulls the strings, who takes the wealth. Just because people vote for "Jo" rather than "Jim", doesn't mean they are getting "Jo" making the decisions, directing the policy. "Democracy" is a tool of the elite, the gangsters. Ukraine stands out in this way. It's sad that people the world over fall for this mush of crumbs thrown to the masses.
Real videos or ones doctored by Russia’s Internet Research Agency?
So in your mind that justifies invasion and bombing hospitals and the Bucha massacre etc? Because the Russians used Azov as an excuse to carry out those atrocities.
Would the UK have been justified in invading Ireland during the troubles because of the IRA’s actions in your view?
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NC, the Nazi thing was/is very real, seen across multiple reports. Guess you never looked?
And no I don't think that justifies attrocities, nor does Russia's behaviour justify Ukraine attrocities.
Ask yourself what was NATO/EU/UK/USA playing at with creating all this, or at best poking a situation that was close to the edge? Or why they scuppered any peace deals last year, not long after this all started?
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NC, the Nazi thing was/is very real, seen across multiple reports. Guess you never looked?
And no I don't think that justifies attrocities, nor does Russia's behaviour justify Ukraine attrocities.
Ask yourself what was NATO/EU/UK/USA playing at with creating all this, or at best poking a situation that was close to the edge? Or why they scuppered any peace deals last year, not long after this all started?
How you believe all this horse shit is beyond incredible!
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I wonder if BRR could run by us how a peace deal, shortly after Putin's War started, was meant to work, with Russian forces all over sovereign Ukrainian soil and Russian troops torturing pensioners and raping babies outside Kyiv?
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Russell Brand asking the question “Did NATO expansion play a pivotal role in triggering Russia’s invasion of Ukraine”.
But no new ex-USSR states joined NATO between 2004 and the invasion. Am I missing something here?
BRR, what would that proposed peace deal have looked like?
Another question. Do you think that Eastern European and former Soviet countries would be safer without NATO?
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NC, the Nazi thing was/is very real, seen across multiple reports. Guess you never looked?
And no I don't think that justifies attrocities, nor does Russia's behaviour justify Ukraine attrocities.
Ask yourself what was NATO/EU/UK/USA playing at with creating all this, or at best poking a situation that was close to the edge? Or why they scuppered any peace deals last year, not long after this all started?
How you believe all this horse shit is beyond incredible!
Rather than throwing your toys out the pram, why don't you explain how and why you believe what you believe?
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I wonder if BRR could run by us how a peace deal, shortly after Putin's War started, was meant to work, with Russian forces all over sovereign Ukrainian soil and Russian troops torturing pensioners and raping babies outside Kyiv?
Ask the people who were forming it, including Zelensky.
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Ask what?
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Russell Brand asking the question “Did NATO expansion play a pivotal role in triggering Russia’s invasion of Ukraine”.
But no new ex-USSR states joined NATO between 2004 and the invasion. Am I missing something here?
BRR, what would that proposed peace deal have looked like?
Another question. Do you think that Eastern European and former Soviet countries would be safer without NATO?
1) I don't know, but likely with Ukraine ceding Crimea. Some or all of the Donbas probably also. All of which is a far better deal than Ukraine would get now. But as I said, ask Zelensky, the Israeli PM, the Turks, The German Chancellor etc. And the Yanks and Boris who stepped in to persuade Zelensky that he's better off with hundreds of thousands of his people dead, his economy ruined, millions who will never return to Ukraine etc etc
2) I think most of those countries are safer with NATO. Ukraine is not the same as a random Eastern Euro nation, and far from the average former soviet state. I think in life we all should be able to discern a step too far, and NATO etc knew this too. They wanted a proxy war. Evil.
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Ask what?
Huh?
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Ask what?
Huh?
Ask the people who were forming it what!
That was your quote
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Ask what?
Huh?
Ask the people who were forming it what!
That was your quote
Read what I replied to:
"I wonder if BRR could run by us how a peace deal, shortly after Putin's War started, was meant to work"
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Russell Brand asking the question “Did NATO expansion play a pivotal role in triggering Russia’s invasion of Ukraine”.
But no new ex-USSR states joined NATO between 2004 and the invasion. Am I missing something here?
BRR, what would that proposed peace deal have looked like?
Another question. Do you think that Eastern European and former Soviet countries would be safer without NATO?
1) I don't know, but likely with Ukraine ceding Crimea. Some or all of the Donbas probably also. All of which is a far better deal than Ukraine would get now. But as I said, ask Zelensky, the Israeli PM, the Turks, The German Chancellor etc. And the Yanks and Boris who stepped in to persuade Zelensky that he's better off with hundreds of thousands of his people dead, his economy ruined, millions who will never return to Ukraine etc etc
2) I think most of those countries are safer with NATO. Ukraine is not the same as a random Eastern Euro nation, and far from the average former soviet state. I think in life we all should be able to discern a step too far, and NATO etc knew this too. They wanted a proxy war. Evil.
Ok thanks, extremely sceptical but just want to work out your side of the argument.
How did NATO provoke Russia? Please provide some evidence. Like I said, no new NATO members in Eastern Europe between 2004 and the invasion.
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Ok thanks, extremely sceptical but just want to work out your side of the argument.
How did NATO provoke Russia? Please provide some evidence. Like I said, no new NATO members in Eastern Europe between 2004 and the invasion.
There is the strange idea some have that NATO isn't the USA in sheeps clothing. Well, UK too but somewhere between one leg and the tail of that entity. On the face of it, that isn't true but we know how powers work.
You're going to have to watch some vids/documentaries on the build up to what's happened. There is a lot of mud in the picture though there is well documented engagement by US officials.
Then there is the explicit invite to Ukraine by NATO (in 2007/8), and the EU. Right there was the step over the red line.
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Russell Brand asking the question “Did NATO expansion play a pivotal role in triggering Russia’s invasion of Ukraine”.
But no new ex-USSR states joined NATO between 2004 and the invasion. Am I missing something here?
BRR, what would that proposed peace deal have looked like?
Another question. Do you think that Eastern European and former Soviet countries would be safer without NATO?
1) I don't know, but likely with Ukraine ceding Crimea. Some or all of the Donbas probably also. All of which is a far better deal than Ukraine would get now. But as I said, ask Zelensky, the Israeli PM, the Turks, The German Chancellor etc. And the Yanks and Boris who stepped in to persuade Zelensky that he's better off with hundreds of thousands of his people dead, his economy ruined, millions who will never return to Ukraine etc etc
2) I think most of those countries are safer with NATO. Ukraine is not the same as a random Eastern Euro nation, and far from the average former soviet state. I think in life we all should be able to discern a step too far, and NATO etc knew this too. They wanted a proxy war. Evil.
Ok thanks, extremely sceptical but just want to work out your side of the argument.
How did NATO provoke Russia? Please provide some evidence. Like I said, no new NATO members in Eastern Europe between 2004 and the invasion.
I'm not sure how BRR comes to the conclusion that a peace deal in Feb/March 2022 would be better than anything they'd get now.
Given that they have since driven Putin's horde out of a third of the land they then occupied. And given that any "peace" deal would have explicitly rewarded Putin for his aggression, and left him with his entire armed forces intact and victorious.
Still, I'm sure there's some Telegram account run from St Petersburg telling him that's the line.
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I've often wondered who the people were in Autumn 1939, and Spring 1940 pushing the line that we should have cut a deal with Hitler. But we now see their 21st century equivalents every day.
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Ok thanks, extremely sceptical but just want to work out your side of the argument.
How did NATO provoke Russia? Please provide some evidence. Like I said, no new NATO members in Eastern Europe between 2004 and the invasion.
There is the strange idea some have that NATO isn't the USA in sheeps clothing. Well, UK too but somewhere between one leg and the tail of that entity. On the face of it, that isn't true but we know how powers work.
You're going to have to watch some vids/documentaries on the build up to what's happened. There is a lot of mud in the picture though there is well documented engagement by US officials.
Then there is the explicit invite to Ukraine by NATO (in 2007/8), and the EU. Right there was the step over the red line.
Why was it a step over the line with Ukraine?
Ukraine expressed an interest in joining in 2002. Years before NATO suggested there could be a possibility of them joining in 2007/08. Of course they still haven’t.
“The political structures of the Warsaw Pact were dissolved in Prague on 1 July 1991. This marked the final dissolution of the Warsaw Pact. The dissolution followed an agreement to cease military cooperation within the Warsaw Pact, which was signed in Budapest on 25 February 1991.
After 36 years of existence, the Warsaw Pact came to an end as Soviet military commanders announced they had relinquished control of Warsaw Pact forces on 31 March 1991. The USSR dissolved in December 1991.”
Russian parliament was created in 1991 but then dissolved in 1993 by Yeltsin and replaced with a “super-presedential system” that could not be overruled effectively.
How would you have felt as a citizen of a former Soviet state hearing that after living through the nightmare of communism in and Russian imperial rule?
Perhaps you as an old school lefty (correct me if I’m wrong) are naturally inclined to fight vociferously against a domineering imperial power. But Russia in the 20th and now 21st century have been more of one than NATO/US/UK. Unless you’re a Marxist and sympathetic to the former glory of the Soviet Union?
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I think what BRR is getting at is that he is of the same mind as Putin, that 'the' Ukraine isn't a real country, is a part of Russia and so that legitimises this war in someway. In particular Putin feels the parts of Ukraine where the majority speak Russian belong to him. Which is why when he couldn't get the whole country he's focused on the Donbas.
It's the same reason Hitler gave for marching into Sudetenland. It's the reason the Baltic states are stopping the teaching of Russian in their schools.
But we know Putins ambitions go way beyond Ukraine anyway because he's told us. He's set on trying to rebuild a new Russian empire. He has to be stopped now in Ukraine, otherwise he will simply rebuild his forces, recruit a whole load of Ukrainians and then set out for Moldova. Then goodness knows where next.
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I think what BRR is getting at is that he is of the same mind as Putin, that 'the' Ukraine isn't a real country, is a part of Russia and so that legitimises this war in someway. In particular Putin feels the parts of Ukraine where the majority speak Russian belong to him. Which is why when he couldn't get the whole country he's focused on the Donbas.
It's the same reason Hitler gave for marching into Sudetenland. It's the reason the Baltic states are stopping the teaching of Russian in their schools.
But we know Putins ambitions go way beyond Ukraine anyway because he's told us. He's set on trying to rebuild a new Russian empire. He has to be stopped now in Ukraine, otherwise he will simply rebuild his forces, recruit a whole load of Ukrainians and then set out for Moldova. Then goodness knows where next.
Some countries have more established borders than others, some of those countries borders are based on well established ethnicities and so on. Ukraine is at best on the weaker side in all this. Even it's name mean borderlands. Maybe there's a rule in some peoples minds, that as from now, no borders are changed. This would be ignoring history and the way nations and powers are in flux, moreso in some regions than others.
Anyway, that said, Ukraine is a complex place but of course has some established being over the ages. More recently it is larger and isn't so clear. Crimea was never part of Ukraine bar from a twist of politics in the last century whereby it was gifted but still part of the USSR. Russia and Ukraine were establishing the Minsk agreements whereby the Donbas would be a self governing region within Ukraine. Ukraine sent the troops in, and then Russia leaked in militarily. A semi autonomis Donbas may well have joined Russia in the futiure. Either way, the Donbas is more Russia than Ukraine in essence, so just looking at that, what's happened is no great surprise to anyone including the US who at least encouraged Ukraine to use its military there.
Putin almost certainly always wanted the Donbas to be Russian, as did a large part of Russians, as did a large part of the Donbas population. To be referring to "Putin" at every turn in discussing this is regurgitating western propaganda, aiming at the man rather than the issue. This is naiive and mistaken, and as such operating from a lie does nothing to engage with the situation in a grounded way. It is good propaganda though, so does have a purpose, is a weapon.
I think you're confused as to the path of this conflict. Beyond the Crimea issue, this all started because of the Donbas, it was not about Ukraine as a whole. That is where it escalated to. There is no doubt as things stand that at least the majority of the Donbas will remain Russian, that was the minimum aim for Russia. Following the collapse of the Minsk agreements, then the landbridge to Crimea was added on. It is now highly likely that will never be given up - Ukraine went all out this summer and gained a few fields, literally, and lost tens of thousands of troops kia and getting on for half its armour, air defences and artillery.
The initial push at Kiev may have been a genuine attempt to take it, more likely a chancing, but definitely a distraction whilst that Crimea landbridge was taken. Now, who knows, hopefully a peace deal will be done where lives are saved and pretty much territory would stay as is. If the war goes on without NATO troops being involved, then Ukraine will lose far more territory. I doubt Russia wants anything west of Kiev.
Before all this, the lines of NATO were accepted by Russia (again, far from just Putin). I think they still are, though just as the US has interfered in Ukraine, Russia may interfere in Moldova or other places. I cannot see it "invading", at least not in the near future. Long future anything can happen in the world, we cannot know, except that ruling elites of any kind are greedy, always have been, always will be. Nothing done immediately now to "stem the tide" of Russia, for example, will make a jot of difference in the longer future, and as I said, there is no way Russia will invade in the near future - at the very least, I refer you to nukes.
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Perhaps you as an old school lefty (correct me if I’m wrong) are naturally inclined to fight vociferously against a domineering imperial power. But Russia in the 20th and now 21st century have been more of one than NATO/US/UK. Unless you’re a Marxist and sympathetic to the former glory of the Soviet Union?
Old school lefty - not reallly. I am sympathetic to marxism - see here for views of marxism that ring very true to me. It's a fantastic discussion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru4rfzFasaI
You think Russia has been more active militarily, and domineering in recent times than the US/NATO/UK? No idea how you work that out. And if you take into account regime changing darkness then...
You might loathe him, and I don't go with all he says, but here he pretty much nails in a simple way the current NATO issue, with clear evidence. Easy to watch, only 17 mins though a fuller, not much longer vid is on Rumble.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aCDThaJ9zw
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I've often wondered who the people were in Autumn 1939, and Spring 1940 pushing the line that we should have cut a deal with Hitler. But we now see their 21st century equivalents every day.
Your lost in an anachronistic fog. Comforting for you, avoiding seeing what's around right now.
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I'm not sure how BRR comes to the conclusion that a peace deal in Feb/March 2022 would be better than anything they'd get now.
Given that they have since driven Putin's horde out of a third of the land they then occupied. And given that any "peace" deal would have explicitly rewarded Putin for his aggression, and left him with his entire armed forces intact and victorious.
Still, I'm sure there's some Telegram account run from St Petersburg telling him that's the line.
Deluded. Even the most pro Ukraine person cannot think Ukraine is winning anything, not if they pay even the slightest attention beyond outright propaganda. Ukraine has thrown its everything at Russia this summer, gained a few fields. Russia has increased it's forces massively and held the line whilst Ukraine has thrown its army into killing zones. Ukraine has, just this summer lost so many soldiers lives and most of it's hardware. Russian losses are far less, not insignificant but far less. It can mobilise many more, but maybe doesn't need to. We'll see.
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I think what BRR is getting at is that he is of the same mind as Putin, that 'the' Ukraine isn't a real country, is a part of Russia and so that legitimises this war in someway. In particular Putin feels the parts of Ukraine where the majority speak Russian belong to him. Which is why when he couldn't get the whole country he's focused on the Donbas.
It's the same reason Hitler gave for marching into Sudetenland. It's the reason the Baltic states are stopping the teaching of Russian in their schools.
But we know Putins ambitions go way beyond Ukraine anyway because he's told us. He's set on trying to rebuild a new Russian empire. He has to be stopped now in Ukraine, otherwise he will simply rebuild his forces, recruit a whole load of Ukrainians and then set out for Moldova. Then goodness knows where next.
Some countries have more established borders than others, some of those countries borders are based on well established ethnicities and so on. Ukraine is at best on the weaker side in all this. Even it's name mean borderlands. Maybe there's a rule in some peoples minds, that as from now, no borders are changed. This would be ignoring history and the way nations and powers are in flux, moreso in some regions than others.
Anyway, that said, Ukraine is a complex place but of course has some established being over the ages. More recently it is larger and isn't so clear. Crimea was never part of Ukraine bar from a twist of politics in the last century whereby it was gifted but still part of the USSR. Russia and Ukraine were establishing the Minsk agreements whereby the Donbas would be a self governing region within Ukraine. Ukraine sent the troops in, and then Russia leaked in militarily. A semi autonomis Donbas may well have joined Russia in the futiure. Either way, the Donbas is more Russia than Ukraine in essence, so just looking at that, what's happened is no great surprise to anyone including the US who at least encouraged Ukraine to use its military there.
Putin almost certainly always wanted the Donbas to be Russian, as did a large part of Russians, as did a large part of the Donbas population. To be referring to "Putin" at every turn in discussing this is regurgitating western propaganda, aiming at the man rather than the issue. This is naiive and mistaken, and as such operating from a lie does nothing to engage with the situation in a grounded way. It is good propaganda though, so does have a purpose, is a weapon.
I think you're confused as to the path of this conflict. Beyond the Crimea issue, this all started because of the Donbas, it was not about Ukraine as a whole. That is where it escalated to. There is no doubt as things stand that at least the majority of the Donbas will remain Russian, that was the minimum aim for Russia. Following the collapse of the Minsk agreements, then the landbridge to Crimea was added on. It is now highly likely that will never be given up - Ukraine went all out this summer and gained a few fields, literally, and lost tens of thousands of troops kia and getting on for half its armour, air defences and artillery.
The initial push at Kiev may have been a genuine attempt to take it, more likely a chancing, but definitely a distraction whilst that Crimea landbridge was taken. Now, who knows, hopefully a peace deal will be done where lives are saved and pretty much territory would stay as is. If the war goes on without NATO troops being involved, then Ukraine will lose far more territory. I doubt Russia wants anything west of Kiev.
Before all this, the lines of NATO were accepted by Russia (again, far from just Putin). I think they still are, though just as the US has interfered in Ukraine, Russia may interfere in Moldova or other places. I cannot see it "invading", at least not in the near future. Long future anything can happen in the world, we cannot know, except that ruling elites of any kind are greedy, always have been, always will be. Nothing done immediately now to "stem the tide" of Russia, for example, will make a jot of difference in the longer future, and as I said, there is no way Russia will invade in the near future - at the very least, I refer you to nukes.
There is a rule now, since WWII that no borders are changed by military force. That is the rule the west is belatedly abiding by. And enforcing.
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Russia can't win this, it is a mid sized economy taking on the entire west. Already it is failing, the rouble is worth just 1 American cent. It's oil income is devastated, Russia has just stopped all its refined oil products being sold abroad because it desperately needs them for its agricultural sector. Russia is being bled dry by the international community.. Interest rates are rocketing. Inflation is rising. Russia has to accept its being pulled in line. The international community cannot afford to back down on this.
Russia cannot be allowed to disrupt the international order. The price is way too high.
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Perhaps you as an old school lefty (correct me if I’m wrong) are naturally inclined to fight vociferously against a domineering imperial power. But Russia in the 20th and now 21st century have been more of one than NATO/US/UK. Unless you’re a Marxist and sympathetic to the former glory of the Soviet Union?
Old school lefty - not reallly. I am sympathetic to marxism - see here for views of marxism that ring very true to me. It's a fantastic discussion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ru4rfzFasaI
You think Russia has been more active militarily, and domineering in recent times than the US/NATO/UK? No idea how you work that out. And if you take into account regime changing darkness then...
You might loathe him, and I don't go with all he says, but here he pretty much nails in a simple way the current NATO issue, with clear evidence. Easy to watch, only 17 mins though a fuller, not much longer vid is on Rumble.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aCDThaJ9zw
The point on Marxism and who has been the more destructive force in the 20th and 21st century are intertwined here.
20th century:
“Marxism, as an ideology, has been associated with various political regimes throughout history. The implementation of these regimes has resulted in significant human suffering and loss of life. According to The Black Book of Communism, a compilation by European and American academics, the human cost of genocides, extrajudicial executions, deportations, and artificial famines under communist regimes is estimated to be over 94 million.”
Two thirds of that sum are estimated to be from the Soviet Union.
The 3 Baltic countries were occupied by the red army in 1940 and then annexed in to USSR.
21st century
Yep I’m not a fan of US military intervention in Iraq. I’m not saying they’re perfect.
Of course there’s Afghanistan and Syria too.
Russia have also intervened in Syria let’s not forget.
Then there’s the Chechen war, the Georgian War and now Ukraine. All aimed at expansion, no?
Had a listen to Brand here. I always listen with extra cautiousness with him as he is an intelligent and charming man, but that’s the problem because he can be very disingenuous in the ideas he proclaims and of course his actions.
He had glossed over the fact that the Warsaw pact was dissolved and became obsolete in 1991. Or that previously Eastern Europe has previously been either occupied or at war with Russia.
https://youtu.be/Rh4QU7hxKVg?si=PaIcqGkYdIYIfgVa
Also doesn’t go in to detail about the nature of this “NATO expansion”. Like I said, no new eastern countries between 2004 and the invasion. Please answer this Bristol.
Who is the man delivering the speech in European Parliament?
I wonder if Brand thinks Finland are “asking for it” with joining NATO this year…
Perhaps Russian demographics are more a reason for this aggression. Again here’s Peter Zeihan, sounds a bit more in-depth than Brand don’t you think?
https://youtu.be/KXHZ0IH2rOk?si=a0SSvFz4K-MUyPlD
I’d like to see you pick apart these videos so I can understand your view a bit more.
Back to the Novora Media video, it falls apart straight away for me because it is underpinned by the idea that the “losers” (bit pessimistic) in society get poorer as the rich get richer.
In 1990, 35% of the world’s population (1.9bn people) lived below $1.90 per day. By 2013, this figure was 10.9%, or just 782m. Left wing economic policy..?
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I think what BRR is getting at is that he is of the same mind as Putin, that 'the' Ukraine isn't a real country, is a part of Russia and so that legitimises this war in someway. In particular Putin feels the parts of Ukraine where the majority speak Russian belong to him. Which is why when he couldn't get the whole country he's focused on the Donbas.
It's the same reason Hitler gave for marching into Sudetenland. It's the reason the Baltic states are stopping the teaching of Russian in their schools.
But we know Putins ambitions go way beyond Ukraine anyway because he's told us. He's set on trying to rebuild a new Russian empire. He has to be stopped now in Ukraine, otherwise he will simply rebuild his forces, recruit a whole load of Ukrainians and then set out for Moldova. Then goodness knows where next.
Some countries have more established borders than others, some of those countries borders are based on well established ethnicities and so on. Ukraine is at best on the weaker side in all this. Even it's name mean borderlands. Maybe there's a rule in some peoples minds, that as from now, no borders are changed. This would be ignoring history and the way nations and powers are in flux, moreso in some regions than others.
Anyway, that said, Ukraine is a complex place but of course has some established being over the ages. More recently it is larger and isn't so clear. Crimea was never part of Ukraine bar from a twist of politics in the last century whereby it was gifted but still part of the USSR. Russia and Ukraine were establishing the Minsk agreements whereby the Donbas would be a self governing region within Ukraine. Ukraine sent the troops in, and then Russia leaked in militarily. A semi autonomis Donbas may well have joined Russia in the futiure. Either way, the Donbas is more Russia than Ukraine in essence, so just looking at that, what's happened is no great surprise to anyone including the US who at least encouraged Ukraine to use its military there.
Putin almost certainly always wanted the Donbas to be Russian, as did a large part of Russians, as did a large part of the Donbas population. To be referring to &quot;Putin&quot; at every turn in discussing this is regurgitating western propaganda, aiming at the man rather than the issue. This is naiive and mistaken, and as such operating from a lie does nothing to engage with the situation in a grounded way. It is good propaganda though, so does have a purpose, is a weapon.
I think you're confused as to the path of this conflict. Beyond the Crimea issue, this all started because of the Donbas, it was not about Ukraine as a whole. That is where it escalated to. There is no doubt as things stand that at least the majority of the Donbas will remain Russian, that was the minimum aim for Russia. Following the collapse of the Minsk agreements, then the landbridge to Crimea was added on. It is now highly likely that will never be given up - Ukraine went all out this summer and gained a few fields, literally, and lost tens of thousands of troops kia and getting on for half its armour, air defences and artillery.
The initial push at Kiev may have been a genuine attempt to take it, more likely a chancing, but definitely a distraction whilst that Crimea landbridge was taken. Now, who knows, hopefully a peace deal will be done where lives are saved and pretty much territory would stay as is. If the war goes on without NATO troops being involved, then Ukraine will lose far more territory. I doubt Russia wants anything west of Kiev.
Before all this, the lines of NATO were accepted by Russia (again, far from just Putin). I think they still are, though just as the US has interfered in Ukraine, Russia may interfere in Moldova or other places. I cannot see it &quot;invading&quot;, at least not in the near future. Long future anything can happen in the world, we cannot know, except that ruling elites of any kind are greedy, always have been, always will be. Nothing done immediately now to &quot;stem the tide&quot; of Russia, for example, will make a jot of difference in the longer future, and as I said, there is no way Russia will invade in the near future - at the very least, I refer you to nukes.
There is a rule now, since WWII that no borders are changed by military force. That is the rule the west is belatedly abiding by. And enforcing.
Cherry picking smokescreens.
What about where the west, mainly the US, keeps the border but instigates regime change? Or just piles in with bombs and tanks. I don't see how that fits with a respect of borders. But let me guess, "respect" was never a part of the western deal?
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Russia can't win this, it is a mid sized economy taking on the entire west. Already it is failing, the rouble is worth just 1 American cent. It's oil income is devastated, Russia has just stopped all its refined oil products being sold abroad because it desperately needs them for its agricultural sector. Russia is being bled dry by the international community.. Interest rates are rocketing. Inflation is rising. Russia has to accept its being pulled in line. The international community cannot afford to back down on this.
Russia cannot be allowed to disrupt the international order. The price is way too high.
Russia has vast wealth. It is not suffering much if any economically. The value of the ruble against the dollar isn't a huge problem.
Further, the financial wealth in the west is massive, but the wealth in terms of steel output, oil, gas, coal, aluminium etc etc is very small compared to the BRICS nations.
The west is already struggling to supply Ukraine on all levels, and Ukraine is struggling to even mobilise troops. Russia has been increasing lots. Already it seems it has more troops on every front, with many many more on their way. even with introducing the longer range missiles, I can't see how the west will win this war. Russia has got progressively stronger, wiser, and Ukraine weaker, more desperate. It's the west that is sick in this slaughter, scuppering peace agreements included.
If you look beyond the western propaganda, you will see this. And that may mean looking at both sets of propaganda and then seeing what's actually happening on the front to see what rings true.
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The point on Marxism and who has been the more destructive force in the 20th and 21st century are intertwined here.
20th century:
“Marxism, as an ideology, has been associated with various political regimes throughout history. The implementation of these regimes has resulted in significant human suffering and loss of life. According to The Black Book of Communism, a compilation by European and American academics, the human cost of genocides, extrajudicial executions, deportations, and artificial famines under communist regimes is estimated to be over 94 million.”
Two thirds of that sum are estimated to be from the Soviet Union.
The 3 Baltic countries were occupied by the red army in 1940 and then annexed in to USSR.
21st century
Yep I’m not a fan of US military intervention in Iraq. I’m not saying they’re perfect.
Of course there’s Afghanistan and Syria too.
Russia have also intervened in Syria let’s not forget.
Then there’s the Chechen war, the Georgian War and now Ukraine. All aimed at expansion, no?
Had a listen to Brand here. I always listen with extra cautiousness with him as he is an intelligent and charming man, but that’s the problem because he can be very disingenuous in the ideas he proclaims and of course his actions.
He had glossed over the fact that the Warsaw pact was dissolved and became obsolete in 1991. Or that previously Eastern Europe has previously been either occupied or at war with Russia.
https://youtu.be/Rh4QU7hxKVg?si=PaIcqGkYdIYIfgVa
Also doesn’t go in to detail about the nature of this “NATO expansion”. Like I said, no new eastern countries between 2004 and the invasion. Please answer this Bristol.
Who is the man delivering the speech in European Parliament?
I wonder if Brand thinks Finland are “asking for it” with joining NATO this year…
Perhaps Russian demographics are more a reason for this aggression. Again here’s Peter Zeihan, sounds a bit more in-depth than Brand don’t you think?
https://youtu.be/KXHZ0IH2rOk?si=a0SSvFz4K-MUyPlD
I’d like to see you pick apart these videos so I can understand your view a bit more.
Back to the Novora Media video, it falls apart straight away for me because it is underpinned by the idea that the “losers” (bit pessimistic) in society get poorer as the rich get richer.
In 1990, 35% of the world’s population (1.9bn people) lived below $1.90 per day. By 2013, this figure was 10.9%, or just 782m. Left wing economic policy..?
You didn't watch that vid did you :lol: Go read about marxism, not how it's mainly being *said* to have been implemented, and then coming out with a blithe "liberal" response. And thos stats - really.... I can respond to that, but later.
A very weird list of countries invaded there. How about Libya, Serbia, Panama, etc, and then regime changes in countless countries.
I'm pretty sure in the Brand vid that guy who made clear the NATO issue was named, and worked for NATO.
I'll look at your vid links later :)
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The point on Marxism and who has been the more destructive force in the 20th and 21st century are intertwined here.
20th century:
“Marxism, as an ideology, has been associated with various political regimes throughout history. The implementation of these regimes has resulted in significant human suffering and loss of life. According to The Black Book of Communism, a compilation by European and American academics, the human cost of genocides, extrajudicial executions, deportations, and artificial famines under communist regimes is estimated to be over 94 million.”
Two thirds of that sum are estimated to be from the Soviet Union.
The 3 Baltic countries were occupied by the red army in 1940 and then annexed in to USSR.
21st century
Yep I’m not a fan of US military intervention in Iraq. I’m not saying they’re perfect.
Of course there’s Afghanistan and Syria too.
Russia have also intervened in Syria let’s not forget.
Then there’s the Chechen war, the Georgian War and now Ukraine. All aimed at expansion, no?
Had a listen to Brand here. I always listen with extra cautiousness with him as he is an intelligent and charming man, but that’s the problem because he can be very disingenuous in the ideas he proclaims and of course his actions.
He had glossed over the fact that the Warsaw pact was dissolved and became obsolete in 1991. Or that previously Eastern Europe has previously been either occupied or at war with Russia.
https://youtu.be/Rh4QU7hxKVg?si=PaIcqGkYdIYIfgVa
Also doesn’t go in to detail about the nature of this “NATO expansion”. Like I said, no new eastern countries between 2004 and the invasion. Please answer this Bristol.
Who is the man delivering the speech in European Parliament?
I wonder if Brand thinks Finland are “asking for it” with joining NATO this year…
Perhaps Russian demographics are more a reason for this aggression. Again here’s Peter Zeihan, sounds a bit more in-depth than Brand don’t you think?
https://youtu.be/KXHZ0IH2rOk?si=a0SSvFz4K-MUyPlD
I’d like to see you pick apart these videos so I can understand your view a bit more.
Back to the Novora Media video, it falls apart straight away for me because it is underpinned by the idea that the “losers” (bit pessimistic) in society get poorer as the rich get richer.
In 1990, 35% of the world’s population (1.9bn people) lived below $1.90 per day. By 2013, this figure was 10.9%, or just 782m. Left wing economic policy..?
You didn't watch that vid did you :lol: Go read about marxism, not how it's mainly being *said* to have been implemented, and then coming out with a blithe "liberal" response. And thos stats - really.... I can respond to that, but later.
A very weird list of countries invaded there. How about Libya, Serbia, Panama, etc, and then regime changes in countless countries.
I'm pretty sure in the Brand vid that guy who made clear the NATO issue was named, and worked for NATO.
I'll look at your vid links later :)
I like how Brand jokes that he couldn’t make a video criticising the Russian government then goes on to divulge in their propaganda for the rest of the video.
Ok I’m sure there’s a higher number of his colleagues who believe otherwise though.
How did Serbia, Libya and Panama antagonise Russia then?
What NATO expansion threatened the safety of Russians? Please state explicitly where and how this resulted in the Ukraine invasion.
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How did Serbia, Libya and Panama antagonise Russia then?
What NATO expansion threatened the safety of Russians? Please state explicitly where and how this resulted in the Ukraine invasion.
They antagonised the US.
Obviously, the creeping of NATO and its missiles towards Moscow isn't going to feel good. It was made clear by Russia that Ukraine was a no go, for obvious reasons. As per the vid you did watch, NATO knew this. Obviously so. That in itself is enough to know. It was a contribution to the invasion. Other factors included issues relating to the Minsk agreements, and the Ukraine coup that led to Ukraine attacking Donbas.
I'll reply more fully later but tell me, what was factual and what was propaganda in Brands vid?
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The point on Marxism and who has been the more destructive force in the 20th and 21st century are intertwined here.
20th century:
“Marxism, as an ideology, has been associated with various political regimes throughout history. The implementation of these regimes has resulted in significant human suffering and loss of life. According to The Black Book of Communism, a compilation by European and American academics, the human cost of genocides, extrajudicial executions, deportations, and artificial famines under communist regimes is estimated to be over 94 million.”
Two thirds of that sum are estimated to be from the Soviet Union.
The 3 Baltic countries were occupied by the red army in 1940 and then annexed in to USSR.
21st century
Yep I’m not a fan of US military intervention in Iraq. I’m not saying they’re perfect.
Of course there’s Afghanistan and Syria too.
Russia have also intervened in Syria let’s not forget.
Then there’s the Chechen war, the Georgian War and now Ukraine. All aimed at expansion, no?
Had a listen to Brand here. I always listen with extra cautiousness with him as he is an intelligent and charming man, but that’s the problem because he can be very disingenuous in the ideas he proclaims and of course his actions.
He had glossed over the fact that the Warsaw pact was dissolved and became obsolete in 1991. Or that previously Eastern Europe has previously been either occupied or at war with Russia.
https://youtu.be/Rh4QU7hxKVg?si=PaIcqGkYdIYIfgVa
Also doesn’t go in to detail about the nature of this “NATO expansion”. Like I said, no new eastern countries between 2004 and the invasion. Please answer this Bristol.
Who is the man delivering the speech in European Parliament?
I wonder if Brand thinks Finland are “asking for it” with joining NATO this year…
Perhaps Russian demographics are more a reason for this aggression. Again here’s Peter Zeihan, sounds a bit more in-depth than Brand don’t you think?
https://youtu.be/KXHZ0IH2rOk?si=a0SSvFz4K-MUyPlD
I’d like to see you pick apart these videos so I can understand your view a bit more.
Back to the Novora Media video, it falls apart straight away for me because it is underpinned by the idea that the “losers” (bit pessimistic) in society get poorer as the rich get richer.
In 1990, 35% of the world’s population (1.9bn people) lived below $1.90 per day. By 2013, this figure was 10.9%, or just 782m. Left wing economic policy..?
Your first vid link is from Peter Zeihan who worked 12 years for Stratfor, including becoming VP. See here about some info on them
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratfor_email_leak
And then he utters such rhetoric, none of it backed up, and a heap of fill in irrelevance and doesn't even answer the first question he posed. Are you saying you're on board with this guy?
His second answer to a question is once again filled with rhetoric and irrelevances and totally misses out the build up to this war. He grossly exagerates, lies, and then comes out with "blah blah blah, you're snarter than them, go tell them to f**k themsleves."
He's clearly reading all this from a script he wrote.
Brand didn't gloss over the Warsaw Pact disoluton - it's just not that relevant in comparison to recent events. However, the NATO expansion issue does go back to what was arguably verbally agreed between Gorbachev and the west when East Germany was given up. NO NATO expansion. Obvioulsy there was expansion. That's a background, and clearly important as background. The actual expansion issue that caused the invasion was NATO inviting Ukraine to be a member, and the subsequent lack of taking this off the table, and finally the coup which was all about joinng NATO and the EU. Some in Ukraine were in favour of this, some were not including the ethnic Russian dominated Donbas, which was attacked by Ukraine armed forces, including overt Nazis.
The second vid, what are you asking about specifically? I got as far as his demographic stat comments, which don't refer to Ukraine's larger proportion that fled, or that are in prison for deserting or refusing to fight etc. It is very much like listening to a man down the pub, but then his background is dodgy as we know, and his current affiliations are likely to be similar.
The man in the vid that said about NATO knowing what they were doing would lead to problems was the NATO Secretary General, Jens Stoltenberg. I believe his opinion carries some weight.
Finland are not Ukraine - obvious huge differences. Russia doesn't care as far as I understand.
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The reality is this is going to become a long conflict. Less intense but ongoing. Neither side can back down, there is no basis for resolution. Any peace is likely to be short lived.
This is where sanctions come into play, the longer they persist the harder it becomes for Russia. How long can they put up with it? We shall see...
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The police in Russia have had enough. They are quitting in their droves.
Army losing numbers daily and now fewer to keep the peace at home.
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The reality is this is going to become a long conflict. Less intense but ongoing. Neither side can back down, there is no basis for resolution. Any peace is likely to be short lived.
This is where sanctions come into play, the longer they persist the harder it becomes for Russia. How long can they put up with it? We shall see...
Sanctions hey, like Sunak making £5m out of one of his companies selling tractors to Russia recently?
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The Ukrainian ‘Summer Offensive’ has been an unmitigated disaster 16,000 plus young men are minus one or more legs, we had flail tanks on D day they went ahead of the infantry and. Blasted the mines, what the Ukrainian Senior commanders have done is short sighted madness.
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Little Slovakia:
"A government led by Fico and his SMER-SSD party would see NATO member Slovakia joining Hungary in challenging the European Union's consensus on support for Ukraine, just as the bloc looks to maintain unity in opposing Russia's invasion."
Would also have a VETO in NATO, along with Hungary could influence the Ukraine issue.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/slovaks-choose-between-pro-russian-ex-pm-fico-pro-western-liberals-2023-09-29/
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Big Fat USA.
Seems they're on a diet, so $6bn isn't on its way to Ukraine. Is this the final nail in Zelensky's coffin?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66977467
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Big Fat USA.
Seems they're on a diet, so $6bn isn't on its way to Ukraine. Is this the final nail in Zelensky's coffin?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66977467
It’s a temporary budget agreement to allow us govt to stay open.
I can’t see any scenario where Biden and co will step away from continuing support for Ukraine long term.
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Big Fat USA.
Seems they're on a diet, so $6bn isn't on its way to Ukraine. Is this the final nail in Zelensky's coffin?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66977467
It’s a temporary budget agreement to allow us govt to stay open.
I can’t see any scenario where Biden and co will step away from continuing support for Ukraine long term.
Perhaps, although the mood of support is less over there. And either way, that is $6bn that likely won't be made up.
Also this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66984944
Not really anything not known for a long time but has finally got to the point where the Beeb have to report it. For those that see the Beeb at least partly as a propaganda machine, then it can be said to being a drip feed before further steps are made or before Ukraine tries to make a realistic peace agreement/surrender.
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Putin's War today.
https://x.com/KyleJGlen/status/1709893267343434108?s=20
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1709946718039785732
Hands up who is for negotiating a peace with a Kitson like that?
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Quite sure some apologist will be along soon to justify these actions.
Im not sure how anyone can make any sort of excuse for something like this but i do know that someone will!
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Quite sure some apologist will be along soon to justify these actions.
Im not sure how anyone can make any sort of excuse for something like this but i do know that someone will!
What are you going to do about the humanitarian crisis caused by the invasion of Nagorno-Karabakh by Azerbaijan ? None of the Warmongers on here said owt, have they.
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Quite sure some apologist will be along soon to justify these actions.
Im not sure how anyone can make any sort of excuse for something like this but i do know that someone will!
What are you going to do about the humanitarian crisis caused by the invasion of Nagorno-Karabakh by Azerbaijan ? None of the Warmongers on here said owt, have they.
Well bu**er me! two for the price of one.
This thread is specifically about the war in the Ukraine.
If you want to discuss Nagorno-Karabakh, Azerbaijan or Timbuktu please start another thread, thanks.
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Big Fat USA.
Seems they're on a diet, so $6bn isn't on its way to Ukraine. Is this the final nail in Zelensky's coffin?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66977467
It’s a temporary budget agreement to allow us govt to stay open.
I can’t see any scenario where Biden and co will step away from continuing support for Ukraine long term.
Perhaps, although the mood of support is less over there. And either way, that is $6bn that likely won't be made up.
Also this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66984944
Not really anything not known for a long time but has finally got to the point where the Beeb have to report it. For those that see the Beeb at least partly as a propaganda machine, then it can be said to being a drip feed before further steps are made or before Ukraine tries to make a realistic peace agreement/surrender.
Luckily they have been sent 1.1 million bullets manufactured in Iran.
I've got visions of the Russians repeating more or less a line from Zulu.
Do a Michael Caine accent as you read BRR,
"H e came all the way here to be killed by a bullet from Birmingham/Iran".
Horrendous murder by the Russians today.
History won't be forgiving of this barbaric despot,murdering scum.
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"In a candid statement made at the Warsaw Security Forum, Dutch Defence Minister Kajsa Ollongren emphasised the strategic importance of arming Ukraine as a cost-effective means of deterring Russia from posing a threat to the NATO alliance. "
https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/russia-ukraine-crisis/ukraine-a-cheap-way-to-ensure-that-russia-is-not-a-threat-to-nato-says-dutch-minister-articleshow.html
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"In a candid statement made at the Warsaw Security Forum, Dutch Defence Minister Kajsa Ollongren emphasised the strategic importance of arming Ukraine as a cost-effective means of deterring Russia from posing a threat to the NATO alliance. "
https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/russia-ukraine-crisis/ukraine-a-cheap-way-to-ensure-that-russia-is-not-a-threat-to-nato-says-dutch-minister-articleshow.html
Any means of deterring Russia is worth it. Cost effective or not. The message to Russia is go home, then we can deal with you.
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Big Fat USA.
Seems they're on a diet, so $6bn isn't on its way to Ukraine. Is this the final nail in Zelensky's coffin?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66977467
It’s a temporary budget agreement to allow us govt to stay open.
I can’t see any scenario where Biden and co will step away from continuing support for Ukraine long term.
Perhaps, although the mood of support is less over there. And either way, that is $6bn that likely won't be made up.
Also this:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-66984944
Not really anything not known for a long time but has finally got to the point where the Beeb have to report it. For those that see the Beeb at least partly as a propaganda machine, then it can be said to being a drip feed before further steps are made or before Ukraine tries to make a realistic peace agreement/surrender.
Luckily they have been sent 1.1 million bullets manufactured in Iran.
I've got visions of the Russians repeating more or less a line from Zulu.
Do a Michael Caine accent as you read BRR,
"H e came all the way here to be killed by a bullet from Birmingham/Iran".
Horrendous murder by the Russians today.
History won't be forgiving of this barbaric despot,murdering scum.
That's the US stealing a shipment sent to Yemen, now sending to Ukraine. The calibre is for older style AK47s. How many does Ukraine have of those? But there you go, a super power stealing weapons and passing them on like Del Boy.
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&quot;In a candid statement made at the Warsaw Security Forum, Dutch Defence Minister Kajsa Ollongren emphasised the strategic importance of arming Ukraine as a cost-effective means of deterring Russia from posing a threat to the NATO alliance. &quot;
https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/russia-ukraine-crisis/ukraine-a-cheap-way-to-ensure-that-russia-is-not-a-threat-to-nato-says-dutch-minister-articleshow.html
Any means of deterring Russia is worth it. Cost effective or not. The message to Russia is go home, then we can deal with you.
Whoosh! :rolleyes:
Think on it.
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&amp;quot;In a candid statement made at the Warsaw Security Forum, Dutch Defence Minister Kajsa Ollongren emphasised the strategic importance of arming Ukraine as a cost-effective means of deterring Russia from posing a threat to the NATO alliance. &amp;quot;
https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/russia-ukraine-crisis/ukraine-a-cheap-way-to-ensure-that-russia-is-not-a-threat-to-nato-says-dutch-minister-articleshow.html
Any means of deterring Russia is worth it. Cost effective or not. The message to Russia is go home, then we can deal with you.
Whoosh! :rolleyes:
Think on it.
Putin is a tyrant who offers nothing. I would like to see him ground into dust.
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Putin is a tyrant who offers nothing. I would like to see him ground into dust.
Try "proxy war".
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Putin is holding the people of Russia hostage.
I have no bad feelings towards Russians.
Their leaders are scum and out of control. We can never succumb to these bas**rds.
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Putin is holding the people of Russia hostage.
I have no bad feelings towards Russians.
Their leaders are scum and out of control. We can never succumb to these bas**rds.
Ukraine leaders? Us proxy war leaders?
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Putin is holding the people of Russia hostage.
I have no bad feelings towards Russians.
Their leaders are scum and out of control. We can never succumb to these bas**rds.
Ukraine leaders? Us proxy war leaders?
Ever been to Russia?
Ever been to the US?
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And another one.
https://twitter.com/maria_avdv/status/1710177806615744606
Just because Putin's f**king barbarians do this so often doesn't mean you should ever get tired of being disgusted by them.
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Putin is liberating the Ukranians......
....of their earthly bonds.
Absolutely appalling.
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Putin is holding the people of Russia hostage.
I have no bad feelings towards Russians.
Their leaders are scum and out of control. We can never succumb to these bas**rds.
Ukraine leaders? Us proxy war leaders?
Ever been to Russia?
Ever been to the US?
Does it matter where I've been? Are you saying there's no corruption in Ukraine leaders or US leaders? Or abuse of their citizens? Or a genuine democracy where there aren't unelected people/organisations directing their policies?
Further, we know Russia's interest in Ukraine. Its questionable that the Ukraine gov has much macro control over anything. The US is the boss in that way. So what is the interest of the US in Ukraine?
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Putin is holding the people of Russia hostage.
I have no bad feelings towards Russians.
Their leaders are scum and out of control. We can never succumb to these bas**rds.
Ukraine leaders? Us proxy war leaders?
Ever been to Russia?
Ever been to the US?
Does it matter where I've been? Are you saying there's no corruption in Ukraine leaders or US leaders? Or abuse of their citizens? Or a genuine democracy where there aren't unelected people/organisations directing their policies?
Further, we know Russia's interest in Ukraine. Its questionable that the Ukraine gov has much macro control over anything. The US is the boss in that way. So what is the interest of the US in Ukraine?
Could it be that the US and the UK are honouring the Budapest aggrement just a tadge better then the Russians who habitually ignore all agreements they sign up to ?
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Can you give me a list of all agreements Russia has signed up to and ignored? Maybe also all those it has adhered to.
You could do the same with the US and UK.
You won't be doing that.
Re the Budapest Memorandum, with the US instigated coup, the Ukraine that Russia had made the agreement with had gone. Also the USA had broken the agreement by introducing and threatening sanctions against the Yanukovych government. Further, the USA doesn't consider the BM legally binding.
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Can you give me a list of all agreements Russia has signed up to and ignored? Maybe also all those it has adhered to.
You could do the same with the US and UK.
You won't be doing that.
Re the Budapest Memorandum, with the US instigated coup, the Ukraine that Russia had made the agreement with had gone. Also the USA had broken the agreement by introducing and threatening sanctions against the Yanukovych government. Further, the USA doesn't consider the BM legally binding.
The only thing Putin sees ‘binding’ is taking Russia back to the USSR of the 60’s.
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Can you give me a list of all agreements Russia has signed up to and ignored? Maybe also all those it has adhered to.
You could do the same with the US and UK.
You won't be doing that.
Re the Budapest Memorandum, with the US instigated coup, the Ukraine that Russia had made the agreement with had gone. Also the USA had broken the agreement by introducing and threatening sanctions against the Yanukovych government. Further, the USA doesn't consider the BM legally binding.
The only thing Putin sees ‘binding’ is taking Russia back to the USSR of the 60’s.
I think you'll find world politics has changed enourmously since then. Russia has more engagement with the world in trade than ever before. The dominance of the US is less, is very stretched right now and likely will need to step back to focus domestically. The power of China, and India, has increased massively. Russia itself has its corruption that eats away at it, but then so does every other country, possibly to a lesser degree? - bar the likes of the gangsters in Ukraine.
As for binding, what about the Minsk agreements?
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Well seeing as coverage has shifted to Israel thought I'd share this from the twitterverse
After a long phone call meeting Putin turns to Biden
I had a very nice dream last night I dreamt that Russia had become the most powerfull country on earth. Launches had been made and London New York Washington San Francisco were smoking ruins, all the US missile sites had been wiped out, nuclear fallout was wiping out thousands of the population with no retaliation.
That's funny replied Joe I had a strange dream last night that Moscow had become one celebratory party site. The bars were crowded people were singing and dancing in the streets champagne was flowing in the Kremlin. Speaches were being made people were so happy ........
But, but what were they saying, asks Vlad, were they celebrating my dream?
How the hell should I know, says Joe, I don't speak Ukranian
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Two young Russian conscripts in Ukraine approached a platoon of Ukranian fighters with their hands in the air, their weapons holstered and surrendered.
"We come to surrender. Our truck is out of fuel and broken down. The rest of our troops are miles away and none of the gas trucks or repair technicians will be available for days. We are stranded."
The Ukrainian soldiers took them into captivity and had them call their parents while they went out to inspect the truck the Russians had abandoned.
They returned and one of them told the Russians what they found.
“Your truck was out of fuel & broken down just like you said. We found leaks in your gas tank & a leaking fuel line. The timing belt was snapped, the oil was leaking from a puncture in the reservoir, the engine had stalled from said lack of oil & the radiator was cracked."
"Wait a second," interjected one of the Russian soldiers. "Did you say the radiator was cracked?"
“Yes,” replied the Ukrainian.
"Huh,” the Russian said. “I don't remember doing that."
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Something not reported in pro Ukraine media - Ukraine lost 24 aircraft in the last 6 days, mainly mig 29s. Russia using a new anti aircraft missile that can reach 400km, reportedly already upgraded to 600km.this, with the progressive destruction of Ukraine air defence seems to suggest that Russian air superiority is nearing the stage where they can have relative freedom over East and Central Ukraine. Meanwhile Ukraine's ability to use the Storm Shadow bombs will be severely restricted, likely to mean Crimea is not nearly so easy to strike.
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Something not reported in pro Ukraine media - Ukraine lost 24 aircraft in the last 6 days, mainly mig 29s. Russia using a new anti aircraft missile that can reach 400km, reportedly already upgraded to 600km.this, with the progressive destruction of Ukraine air defence seems to suggest that Russian air superiority is nearing the stage where they can have relative freedom over East and Central Ukraine. Meanwhile Ukraine's ability to use the Storm Shadow bombs will be severely restricted, likely to mean Crimea is not nearly so easy to strike.
Let me guess what the source of that info is...
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Something not reported in pro Ukraine media - Ukraine lost 24 aircraft in the last 6 days, mainly mig 29s. Russia using a new anti aircraft missile that can reach 400km, reportedly already upgraded to 600km.this, with the progressive destruction of Ukraine air defence seems to suggest that Russian air superiority is nearing the stage where they can have relative freedom over East and Central Ukraine. Meanwhile Ukraine's ability to use the Storm Shadow bombs will be severely restricted, likely to mean Crimea is not nearly so easy to strike.
Let me guess what the source of that info is...
Watch and see the results. Maybe change your US news sources to grasp a wider view.
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Read all about it, russia declines opportunity to brag about shooting down 24 Ukraine jets, putin spokes declares 'we won the non-war in 6 days on the seventh we rest'
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Huh?
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Something not reported in pro Ukraine media - Ukraine lost 24 aircraft in the last 6 days, mainly mig 29s. Russia using a new anti aircraft missile that can reach 400km, reportedly already upgraded to 600km.this, with the progressive destruction of Ukraine air defence seems to suggest that Russian air superiority is nearing the stage where they can have relative freedom over East and Central Ukraine. Meanwhile Ukraine's ability to use the Storm Shadow bombs will be severely restricted, likely to mean Crimea is not nearly so easy to strike.
The reason it’s not being reported is that there is no evidence to support those claims.
Quite the opposite in fact.
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Something not reported in pro Ukraine media - Ukraine lost 24 aircraft in the last 6 days, mainly mig 29s. Russia using a new anti aircraft missile that can reach 400km, reportedly already upgraded to 600km.this, with the progressive destruction of Ukraine air defence seems to suggest that Russian air superiority is nearing the stage where they can have relative freedom over East and Central Ukraine. Meanwhile Ukraine's ability to use the Storm Shadow bombs will be severely restricted, likely to mean Crimea is not nearly so easy to strike.
The reason it’s not being reported is that there is no evidence to support those claims.
Quite the opposite in fact.
Because the BBC always deals in fact, isn't a propaganda machine? And because Ukraine reports its losses?
You state the opposite is true. Any evidence for that?
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There is nothing wrong with the BBC - the politicians in this country don't like the BBC for goodness sake.
On the other hand anything that comes out of Russia has to be taken with a pinch of salt!!
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Something not reported in pro Ukraine media - Ukraine lost 24 aircraft in the last 6 days, mainly mig 29s. Russia using a new anti aircraft missile that can reach 400km, reportedly already upgraded to 600km.this, with the progressive destruction of Ukraine air defence seems to suggest that Russian air superiority is nearing the stage where they can have relative freedom over East and Central Ukraine. Meanwhile Ukraine's ability to use the Storm Shadow bombs will be severely restricted, likely to mean Crimea is not nearly so easy to strike.
The reason it’s not being reported is that there is no evidence to support those claims.
Quite the opposite in fact.
Because the BBC always deals in fact, isn't a propaganda machine? And because Ukraine reports its losses?
You state the opposite is true. Any evidence for that?
Why bring the BBC into this, I never mentioned them?
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Interest rates in russia 15%, it must be good to have control?
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Something not reported in pro Ukraine media - Ukraine lost 24 aircraft in the last 6 days, mainly mig 29s. Russia using a new anti aircraft missile that can reach 400km, reportedly already upgraded to 600km.this, with the progressive destruction of Ukraine air defence seems to suggest that Russian air superiority is nearing the stage where they can have relative freedom over East and Central Ukraine. Meanwhile Ukraine's ability to use the Storm Shadow bombs will be severely restricted, likely to mean Crimea is not nearly so easy to strike.
The reason it’s not being reported is that there is no evidence to support those claims.
Quite the opposite in fact.
Because the BBC always deals in fact, isn't a propaganda machine? And because Ukraine reports its losses?
You state the opposite is true. Any evidence for that?
Why bring the BBC into this, I never mentioned them?
BBC/MSM...
You said the "opposite is true". What are you saying, and where do you get that from?
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Something not reported in pro Ukraine media - Ukraine lost 24 aircraft in the last 6 days, mainly mig 29s. Russia using a new anti aircraft missile that can reach 400km, reportedly already upgraded to 600km.this, with the progressive destruction of Ukraine air defence seems to suggest that Russian air superiority is nearing the stage where they can have relative freedom over East and Central Ukraine. Meanwhile Ukraine's ability to use the Storm Shadow bombs will be severely restricted, likely to mean Crimea is not nearly so easy to strike.
The reason it’s not being reported is that there is no evidence to support those claims.
Quite the opposite in fact.
Because the BBC always deals in fact, isn't a propaganda machine? And because Ukraine reports its losses?
You state the opposite is true. Any evidence for that?
Why bring the BBC into this, I never mentioned them?
BBC/MSM...
You said the "opposite is true". What are you saying, and where do you get that from?
Can you provide a link to this information so we can verify what you said is true?
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Something not reported in pro Ukraine media - Ukraine lost 24 aircraft in the last 6 days, mainly mig 29s. Russia using a new anti aircraft missile that can reach 400km, reportedly already upgraded to 600km.this, with the progressive destruction of Ukraine air defence seems to suggest that Russian air superiority is nearing the stage where they can have relative freedom over East and Central Ukraine. Meanwhile Ukraine's ability to use the Storm Shadow bombs will be severely restricted, likely to mean Crimea is not nearly so easy to strike.
The reason it’s not being reported is that there is no evidence to support those claims.
Quite the opposite in fact.
Because the BBC always deals in fact, isn't a propaganda machine? And because Ukraine reports its losses?
You state the opposite is true. Any evidence for that?
Why bring the BBC into this, I never mentioned them?
BBC/MSM...
You said the &quot;opposite is true&quot;. What are you saying, and where do you get that from?
Can you provide a link to this information so we can verify what you said is true?
https://bulgarianmilitary.com/amp/2023/11/02/russia-downed-17-ukrainian-mig-29s-in-10-days-two-dozen-left/
https://defencesecurityasia.com/en/mig29-ukraine-russia/
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Something not reported in pro Ukraine media - Ukraine lost 24 aircraft in the last 6 days, mainly mig 29s. Russia using a new anti aircraft missile that can reach 400km, reportedly already upgraded to 600km.this, with the progressive destruction of Ukraine air defence seems to suggest that Russian air superiority is nearing the stage where they can have relative freedom over East and Central Ukraine. Meanwhile Ukraine's ability to use the Storm Shadow bombs will be severely restricted, likely to mean Crimea is not nearly so easy to strike.
The reason it’s not being reported is that there is no evidence to support those claims.
Quite the opposite in fact.
Because the BBC always deals in fact, isn't a propaganda machine? And because Ukraine reports its losses?
You state the opposite is true. Any evidence for that?
Why bring the BBC into this, I never mentioned them?
BBC/MSM...
You said the &amp;quot;opposite is true&amp;quot;. What are you saying, and where do you get that from?
Can you provide a link to this information so we can verify what you said is true?
https://bulgarianmilitary.com/amp/2023/11/02/russia-downed-17-ukrainian-mig-29s-in-10-days-two-dozen-left/
https://defencesecurityasia.com/en/mig29-ukraine-russia/
And both those bastions of independent journalism use the statements from the Russian Ministry of Defence and actually can't agree with each other. That's your evidence?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/08/06/the-ukrainian-air-force-lost-62-planes-in-2022-so-far-in-2023-it-has-lost-just-seven/?sh=5aef0d8241b3
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Has anybody watched the film '20 days in Mariupol'?
Proper journalism, and particularly heartbreaking.
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Something not reported in pro Ukraine media - Ukraine lost 24 aircraft in the last 6 days, mainly mig 29s. Russia using a new anti aircraft missile that can reach 400km, reportedly already upgraded to 600km.this, with the progressive destruction of Ukraine air defence seems to suggest that Russian air superiority is nearing the stage where they can have relative freedom over East and Central Ukraine. Meanwhile Ukraine's ability to use the Storm Shadow bombs will be severely restricted, likely to mean Crimea is not nearly so easy to strike.
The reason it’s not being reported is that there is no evidence to support those claims.
Quite the opposite in fact.
Because the BBC always deals in fact, isn't a propaganda machine? And because Ukraine reports its losses?
You state the opposite is true. Any evidence for that?
Why bring the BBC into this, I never mentioned them?
BBC/MSM...
You said the &amp;amp;quot;opposite is true&amp;amp;quot;. What are you saying, and where do you get that from?
Can you provide a link to this information so we can verify what you said is true?
https://bulgarianmilitary.com/amp/2023/11/02/russia-downed-17-ukrainian-mig-29s-in-10-days-two-dozen-left/
https://defencesecurityasia.com/en/mig29-ukraine-russia/
And both those bastions of independent journalism use the statements from the Russian Ministry of Defence and actually can't agree with each other. That's your evidence?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/08/06/the-ukrainian-air-force-lost-62-planes-in-2022-so-far-in-2023-it-has-lost-just-seven/?sh=5aef0d8241b3
Forbes wouldn't be western based would it?
The thing is only a v few western news outlets publish anything but unavoidable reports on Western failings. All across the front Ukraine's are stepping back, as reported by all mapping sources. In a few areas they're making v slight gains and in the process in all of these they're losing huge amounts of troops and armour.
Current Ukraine mobilisation is focused on women and 18 to 20 year olds.
Back to the planes - markedly less stormshadow launches since I said about their losses.
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Something not reported in pro Ukraine media - Ukraine lost 24 aircraft in the last 6 days, mainly mig 29s. Russia using a new anti aircraft missile that can reach 400km, reportedly already upgraded to 600km.this, with the progressive destruction of Ukraine air defence seems to suggest that Russian air superiority is nearing the stage where they can have relative freedom over East and Central Ukraine. Meanwhile Ukraine's ability to use the Storm Shadow bombs will be severely restricted, likely to mean Crimea is not nearly so easy to strike.
The reason it’s not being reported is that there is no evidence to support those claims.
Quite the opposite in fact.
Because the BBC always deals in fact, isn't a propaganda machine? And because Ukraine reports its losses?
You state the opposite is true. Any evidence for that?
Why bring the BBC into this, I never mentioned them?
BBC/MSM...
You said the &amp;amp;amp;quot;opposite is true&amp;amp;amp;quot;. What are you saying, and where do you get that from?
Can you provide a link to this information so we can verify what you said is true?
https://bulgarianmilitary.com/amp/2023/11/02/russia-downed-17-ukrainian-mig-29s-in-10-days-two-dozen-left/
https://defencesecurityasia.com/en/mig29-ukraine-russia/
And both those bastions of independent journalism use the statements from the Russian Ministry of Defence and actually can't agree with each other. That's your evidence?
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/08/06/the-ukrainian-air-force-lost-62-planes-in-2022-so-far-in-2023-it-has-lost-just-seven/?sh=5aef0d8241b3
Forbes wouldn't be western based would it?
The thing is only a v few western news outlets publish anything but unavoidable reports on Western failings. All across the front Ukraine's are stepping back, as reported by all mapping sources. In a few areas they're making v slight gains and in the process in all of these they're losing huge amounts of troops and armour.
Current Ukraine mobilisation is focused on women and 18 to 20 year olds.
Back to the planes - markedly less stormshadow launches since I said about their losses.
Yes, I keep forgetting about that fine upstanding Russian propaganda machine and their reputation for fair and unbiased reporting!!! How silly of me.
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You miss my overall point. Western mainstream media is generally so far off the mark with the real situation. Russian media can be too. Most who follow only western media are under the illusion that Ukraine is doing well. It clearly isn't, something that can be seen from well evidenced mapping and understanding possible strategies from well evidenced incidents. Along with this there is the issue of the potential of Ukraine/US funding of the war v Russian funding. Again, western media gives an unrealistic view unless you follow the details.
In this case, can you explain why storm shadow use has practically stopped, or entirely stopped? Seems odd given its occasional success. Admittedly, proportionally more appear to have been shot down so it could be a progressively expensive, prohibitive, option.
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You miss my overall point. Western mainstream media is generally so far off the mark with the real situation. Russian media can be too. Most who follow only western media are under the illusion that Ukraine is doing well. It clearly isn't, something that can be seen from well evidenced mapping and understanding possible strategies from well evidenced incidents. Along with this there is the issue of the potential of Ukraine/US funding of the war v Russian funding. Again, western media gives an unrealistic view unless you follow the details.
In this case, can you explain why storm shadow use has practically stopped, or entirely stopped? Seems odd given its occasional success. Admittedly, proportionally more appear to have been shot down so it could be a progressively expensive, prohibitive, option.
Given that Poo-Tin's expectation was that Russian tanks would be rolling into Kiev after about four days I think you're a bit off the mark there, BRR... Nothing changes.
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Ah, your version of Ukraine doing well is that its still standing? Standing, like a one legged cow? Or are you going with the latest blatant BBC propaganda that Russia is running out of missiles? Ouch.
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I'll stick with my own reading of it, thanks. Thus far, nothing you've said on this topic has the remotest connection with reality.
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The peddler of Putin guff is continuing to peddle said guff - shameful.
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I'll stick with my own reading of it, thanks. Thus far, nothing you've said on this topic has the remotest connection with reality.
Bit of a wild swipe of a statement there. I wonder what it is you're reading that you feel is bringing you contact with reality?
Same goes for anyone else reading this.
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I just don't get it Bristol, what is it about Putin you admire? What is it about modern Russia that's so attractive? Why should Ukraine want to remain a part of it?
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You miss my overall point. Western mainstream media is generally so far off the mark with the real situation. Russian media can be too. Most who follow only western media are under the illusion that Ukraine is doing well. It clearly isn't, something that can be seen from well evidenced mapping and understanding possible strategies from well evidenced incidents. Along with this there is the issue of the potential of Ukraine/US funding of the war v Russian funding. Again, western media gives an unrealistic view unless you follow the details.
In this case, can you explain why storm shadow use has practically stopped, or entirely stopped? Seems odd given its occasional success. Admittedly, proportionally more appear to have been shot down so it could be a progressively expensive, prohibitive, option.
It’s simple - Western culture values objective truth more than Russian culture, and the contrast is particularly stark at the establishment and media level.
“The term "political correctness" first appeared in Marxist-Leninist vocabulary following the Russian Revolution of 1917. At that time, it was used to describe strict adherence to the policies and principles of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, that is, the party line. The phrase was later used in the 1930s to describe dogmatic adherence to ideology in authoritarian regimes, such as Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia.”
Since then Russia has only lasted 8 years without an authoritarian anti free speech leadership relatively speaking (1991-1998)
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I ask this question, largely to Bristol.
Russia has achieved what? Deaths of thousands of its people, thousands of Ukrainian citizens, tonnes of cities/towns destroyed, Nato growth, western defence spending increased, assets siezed, oligarchs thrown out of the west, currency devalued and economy tanked. Remind me again about the success they're having because I must be missing it?
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I ask this question, largely to Bristol.
Russia has achieved what? Deaths of thousands of its people, thousands of Ukrainian citizens, tonnes of cities/towns destroyed, Nato growth, western defence spending increased, assets siezed, oligarchs thrown out of the west, currency devalued and economy tanked. Remind me again about the success they're having because I must be missing it?
It's worth adding the environmental impact on this list too, what's been released into the atmosphere /ground as a direct result of Putin's action must be beyond measure
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I just don't get it Bristol, what is it about Putin you admire? What is it about modern Russia that's so attractive? Why should Ukraine want to remain a part of it?
First of all you have to consider how Ukraine has been used by the west, mainly the US with the UK as lap dog. The US thought it could win this war easily, or at least stress Russia to the point of collapse - epic fail on both counts as far as can be seen. And then you can ask why Ukraine would want to be part of Russia, part of the US empire or remain as it was with feet in both camps, something that was possible up until Johnson interfered, after the invasion when a peace agreement was being processed, with promises that haven't materialised - sound familiar?
Back to the media you are using in forming your opinions, what are you using? Yes, Russian propaganda is strong, as is the case with many countries. The Western propaganda is effective in the west, but actually doesn't hold up in the "truth" stakes either.
As I have said many times, I'm not pro Russian, far from it. I'm not pro western either. Most on this board are because they have swallowed the western propaganda.
This war is geopolitics, empires battling it out. Empires all run by similar mafia type organisations. Some more sophisticated, sugar coated that others, plus there are simply different characteristics of peoples where different systems work.
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Not pro Russian or pro West?
Just a wind up merchant then?
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Not pro Russian or pro West?
Just a wind up merchant then?
Take me through your thought process there, sweet bean.
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My post asks the question you could try answering it, but never mind cherub
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Russian expansionism?
''Opinion: Will the Kremlin’s war soon expand to a second front in Georgia?''
https://kyivindependent.com/opinion-will-the-kremlins-war-soon-expand-to-a-second-front-in-georgia/
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My post asks the question you could try answering it, but never mind cherub
Clearly answered you. Or are you a wind up merchant? That was the bean point, soothing your paranoia.
To help you, you asked 2 questions. The answer to the first was already clear in my post. The second question was a blind leap of yours, straight to an insult, missing out the bleedin obvious which is that I'm not pro either external oppressive force.
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What unbiased sources of information would you accept BRR?
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What unbiased sources of information would you accept BRR?
As ever, nothing is unbiased. There are plenty of places analysing a variety of prime sources. Military Summary channel on YouTube is good at giving a full picture of what's going on, it's analysis can be off, and is Russian biased, but that's easy to work through. With a few of the other channels, mostly somewhat pro Russian, an appreciation of things can be seen. The pro Ukraine channels are understandably less reliable in getting a full perspective, mostly awful to be fair.
So, what have you been watching?
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What unbiased sources of information would you accept BRR?
As ever, nothing is unbiased. There are plenty of places analysing a variety of prime sources. Military Summary channel on YouTube is good at giving a full picture of what's going on, it's analysis can be off, and is Russian biased, but that's easy to work through. With a few of the other channels, mostly somewhat pro Russian, an appreciation of things can be seen. The pro Ukraine channels are understandably less reliable in getting a full perspective, mostly awful to be fair.
So, what have you been watching?
So your knowledge comes from Pro Russian you tube channels which you admit can be off in their analysis and other “mostly somewhat” Pro Russian and Pro Ukrainian one that are “understandably less reliable” and are most awful? And you may wonder why people on this thread don’t take you seriously
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I have just had a skim read through this threads recent posts ..... and realised why i don't bother checking it out any more.
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What unbiased sources of information would you accept BRR?
As ever, nothing is unbiased. There are plenty of places analysing a variety of prime sources. Military Summary channel on YouTube is good at giving a full picture of what's going on, it's analysis can be off, and is Russian biased, but that's easy to work through. With a few of the other channels, mostly somewhat pro Russian, an appreciation of things can be seen. The pro Ukraine channels are understandably less reliable in getting a full perspective, mostly awful to be fair.
So, what have you been watching?
So your knowledge comes from Pro Russian you tube channels which you admit can be off in their analysis and other “mostly somewhat” Pro Russian and Pro Ukrainian one that are “understandably less reliable” and are most awful? And you may wonder why people on this thread don’t take you seriously
Glosterred. The post you replied to is so hypocritical that it is an absolute joke.
We all read propaganda media,but BRR. doesn't.
Then he openly admits to it and questions our sources of information!
Hmm.
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I have just had a skim read through this threads recent posts ..... and realised why i don't bother checking it out any more.
But felt a need/pulsation to post what you did.
Why not offer an opinion rather than petty posting like that?
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I have just had a skim read through this threads recent posts ..... and realised why i don't bother checking it out any more.
But felt a need/pulsation to post what you did.
Why not offer an opinion rather than petty posting like that?
Welcome back, troll.
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My post asks the question you could try answering it, but never mind cherub
Clearly answered you. Or are you a wind up merchant? That was the bean point, soothing your paranoia.
To help you, you asked 2 questions. The answer to the first was already clear in my post. The second question was a blind leap of yours, straight to an insult, missing out the bleedin obvious which is that I'm not pro either external oppressive force.
Insult? For asking a question
My word touchy
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I have just had a skim read through this threads recent posts ..... and realised why i don't bother checking it out any more.
But felt a need/pulsation to post what you did.
Why not offer an opinion rather than petty posting like that?
Welcome back, troll.
Seriously??
Ha,ha. .
You've got some major issues going on.
Time you grew up or spoke to someone.
Maybe try commenting on the thread rather than chucking grenades and swiping from the side with snide remarks.
You have a habit of doing that on every thread.
Maybe time to be a bit more mature in your posting and keep on topic.
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I have just had a skim read through this threads recent posts ..... and realised why i don't bother checking it out any more.
But felt a need/pulsation to post what you did.
Why not offer an opinion rather than petty posting like that?
Welcome back, troll.
Seriously??
Ha,ha. .
You've got some major issues going on.
Time you grew up or spoke to someone.
Maybe try commenting on the thread rather than chucking grenades and swiping from the side with snide remarks.
You have a habit of doing that on every thread.
Maybe time to be a bit more mature in your posting and keep on topic.
Honestly, that made me laugh.
It’s getting late, time to go back under your bridge.
You, Mr Aggressive, talking about snide remarks.
Anyway, it’s late, time for you to go back under your bridge.
There might be some water there for you to do some more phishing.
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What unbiased sources of information would you accept BRR?
As ever, nothing is unbiased. There are plenty of places analysing a variety of prime sources. Military Summary channel on YouTube is good at giving a full picture of what's going on, it's analysis can be off, and is Russian biased, but that's easy to work through. With a few of the other channels, mostly somewhat pro Russian, an appreciation of things can be seen. The pro Ukraine channels are understandably less reliable in getting a full perspective, mostly awful to be fair.
So, what have you been watching?
So your knowledge comes from Pro Russian you tube channels which you admit can be off in their analysis and other “mostly somewhat” Pro Russian and Pro Ukrainian one that are “understandably less reliable” and are most awful? And you may wonder why people on this thread don’t take you seriously
That's not what I said. Anyway, if you have any cred, you can tell me where you get your info from.
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What unbiased sources of information would you accept BRR?
As ever, nothing is unbiased. There are plenty of places analysing a variety of prime sources. Military Summary channel on YouTube is good at giving a full picture of what's going on, it's analysis can be off, and is Russian biased, but that's easy to work through. With a few of the other channels, mostly somewhat pro Russian, an appreciation of things can be seen. The pro Ukraine channels are understandably less reliable in getting a full perspective, mostly awful to be fair.
So, what have you been watching?
So your knowledge comes from Pro Russian you tube channels which you admit can be off in their analysis and other “mostly somewhat” Pro Russian and Pro Ukrainian one that are “understandably less reliable” and are most awful? And you may wonder why people on this thread don’t take you seriously
Glosterred. The post you replied to is so hypocritical that it is an absolute joke.
We all read propaganda media,but BRR. doesn't.
Then he openly admits to it and questions our sources of information!
Hmm.
Your logic is dire - try taking me through that.
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My post asks the question you could try answering it, but never mind cherub
Clearly answered you. Or are you a wind up merchant? That was the bean point, soothing your paranoia.
To help you, you asked 2 questions. The answer to the first was already clear in my post. The second question was a blind leap of yours, straight to an insult, missing out the bleedin obvious which is that I'm not pro either external oppressive force.
Insult? For asking a question
My word touchy
I dodn't see a question, bar a wind up merchant comment from a wind up merchant, evidently so.
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From when I aksed re sources used, so far it appears not one person here is reading anything about Ukraine, yet still feel they can comment. About as in touch as Boris going to Zelensky and telling him not to go with the peace agreement that would have left Ukraine with independance, but to go with guffle and pooof, and baaaa...Boris will protect you. Suckers.
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I see Putin is at it again. Salvoes of rockets and drones hitting apartment blocks, shopping centres and hotels in Ukrainian cities.
EDIT:
And a maternity hospital.
https://twitter.com/JimmySecUK/status/1740632880639049808
This sums up the situation:
https://x.com/Chris_D_Steele/status/1740854021433479338?s=20
Either we keep supporting Ukraine and defeat Putin's fascists.
Or, Putin wins. And anyone who thinks he then says "Yep, that's me done. The rest of Europe is safe" is on a different planet.
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The whole of Europe needs to get its act together and send in every bit of support needed to get this war going unequivocally in Ukraine's favour.
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As always, the facts here come slowly, the propaganda quickly. I wonder if BST heard about the Ukrainian missiles fired into a Russian city centre in the daytime on Saturday - ie when civilians are around. Note Russian missiles are sent in at night when civilians aren't around the streets.
In Belgorod, Russia, just 4 kids dead, and a couple of dozen civilians. One Russian military reported injured. Maybe cluster bombs used, not sure of that.
But hey, keep singing the Yankee songs BST. They trained you well.
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The whole of Europe needs to get its act together and send in every bit of support needed to get this war going unequivocally in Ukraine's favour.
It just ain't gonna happen. For one, Ukraine is running out of man and woman power. Kit is low too.
USA elections coming up. Bulgaria vetoing EU plans, and there will be others objecting too. And, ultimately, Russia isn't going to let up.
Russia has made a clear statement Ukraine having missed the window for negotiations where it will have any say. That's partly Boris there being ass licker to the US and telling Z to not negotiate as NATO has got this. I think that message was written on a bus?
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Ukraine shelled Central areas of Donetsk with cluster munitions last night.
https://www.barrons.com/news/four-killed-by-ukrainian-shelling-in-moscow-held-donetsk-on-new-year-s-eve-authorities-49bcefb0
In other news, the UK rebel BST has still not managed to bypass his GCHQ Internet filter.
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As few of you will be aware, especially those tuned into BST News Corp, Ukraine is losing progressively badly and is trying to mobilise another 500k "volunteers". They are picking up the "volunteers" in nightclubs, on street corners, and I've just seen a vid of a desperate woman walking through fields with her kids after her hubby "volunteered" to some Ukraine military guys, who stopped them, whilst driving to a Christmas location. She wasn't a driver, hence the desperate plea for help on her video.
One of a great many examples of the volunteering. It would seem that those wanting to fight are mainly already in Bakhmut and Avdika, and the ones currently "volunteering" might not be so on board with project NATO. Seems its around 5k dollars for an alternative excursion to Romania etc, tho even those are now being diverted to Bakhmut.
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Just in case we forget what Team Putin is like.
https://twitter.com/francis_scarr/status/1747953204690600289
War to purge the country of undesirables and unite The People.
The very definition of ethno-fascism.
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Easy to forget just how mind numbingly thick Corbyn is on foreign affairs.
https://twitter.com/FARED_ALHOR/status/1747583842339213377
I say "thick". This is so thick, it really does make you wonder if he is working for the Kremlin.
What message does he think a ceasefire in Ukraine sends to Putin?
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The whole of Europe needs to get its act together and send in every bit of support needed to get this war going unequivocally in Ukraine's favour.
It just ain't gonna happen. For one, Ukraine is running out of man and woman power. Kit is low too.
USA elections coming up. Bulgaria vetoing EU plans, and there will be others objecting too. And, ultimately, Russia isn't going to let up.
Russia has made a clear statement Ukraine having missed the window for negotiations where it will have any say. That's partly Boris there being ass licker to the US and telling Z to not negotiate as NATO has got this. I think that message was written on a bus?
Is this you rubbing your hands with glee?
This ‘operation’ by Putin was for what aim? Two years on & correct me if I’m wrong but this was an invasion by Russia on a sovereign state, yes or no?
To what aim? Please enlighten me….seriously. Regard me as a ‘bystander’ from afar trying to understand this aggression from Russia & why it (under Putin’s direction…for want of a better word) decided to attack/invade Ukraine with the obvious aim of subjugating the country within a ‘matter of days’ to then go on to do/claim/threaten who, what?
Two years in which civilians are ALWAYS the victims on both sides in what is a (please let’s not beat about the bush) a war between two countries.
You speak often about US/UK/NATO backing of Ukraine, sometimes you castigate their involvement, sometimes you ‘ridicule’ their seemingly reluctance to contribute more to Ukraines needs be it military hardware, money, or mere statements of solidarity.
Winston Churchill begged, cajoled & pleaded with the USA to join the Alliance during WW11. He realised (as does Zelensky) that without the support of ‘greater powers’ Britain (Ukraine today) could not overcome tyranny.
The ‘States’ did eventually join forces with us in WW11 (granted the bombing of Pearl Harbour finally opened their eyes) but if that ‘event’ hadn’t happened & the USA had stayed out of that conflict, I think you’d have to agree that you & I would be growing up in a very different Britain today?
And so it is with Ukraine. They hope & look for help from the wider ‘democratic countries’ so that their children & their children’s children grow up in a free Ukraine with all its culture, history & language.
Too simplistic?
.
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No rubbing of hands here. The devastation and misery is awful. As for the rest of what you say, think what would happen if Canada was wooed by a foreign power, was cutting ties with the US, going into an economic and military union with China, or Russia. Bringing their troops and weapons into Canada. And in the process was making US citizens there second class.
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No rubbing of hands here. The devastation and misery is awful. As for the rest of what you say, think what would happen if Canada was wooed by a foreign power, was cutting ties with the US, going into an economic and military union with China, or Russia. Bringing their troops and weapons into Canada. And in the process was making US citizens there second class.
?
You’ve lost me.
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No rubbing of hands here. The devastation and misery is awful. As for the rest of what you say, think what would happen if Canada was wooed by a foreign power, was cutting ties with the US, going into an economic and military union with China, or Russia. Bringing their troops and weapons into Canada. And in the process was making US citizens there second class.
?
You’ve lost me.
Where?
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No rubbing of hands here. The devastation and misery is awful. As for the rest of what you say, think what would happen if Canada was wooed by a foreign power, was cutting ties with the US, going into an economic and military union with China, or Russia. Bringing their troops and weapons into Canada. And in the process was making US citizens there second class.
?
You’ve lost me.
Where?
Are you likening (theoretically speaking) Ukraine to Canada?
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Yes, and the Russia the neighbour to the US, and then the US/NATO/EU the new allie to China.
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No rubbing of hands here. The devastation and misery is awful. As for the rest of what you say, think what would happen if Canada was wooed by a foreign power, was cutting ties with the US, going into an economic and military union with China, or Russia. Bringing their troops and weapons into Canada. And in the process was making US citizens there second class.
?
You’ve lost me.
Where?
Are you likening (theoretically speaking) Ukraine to Canada?
It'd be a gem of an analogy wouldn't it?
If Canada had been ruled from Washington for centuries
If American Govt policy had led to several million Canadians dying of starvation in the 1930s.
If Greater America had collapsed in 1991, leading to Canada setting up as an independent nation protected by treaty from invasion by America and Russia.
If America had migrated hundreds of thousands of Americans to Nova Scotia over the 20th century, then claimed Nova Scotia was a de facto part of America and invaded.
If rebel Americans in Quebec had shot down a Malaysian Airliner.
If President Biden had given a rambling speech where he said Canada had no right to existence independent of America.
And if America had then launched a fascist-imperialist invasion of Canada.
That would have been a REALLY good analogy.
As it is, it's more like the dog shit that Russian trolls spaff out and useful idiots repeat.
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There's many more specific details you omit that would make the analogy identical. But let's keep it simple, the basics, the situation, that way it's possible to take a perspective not entrenched in various theories and propaganda - you illustrate well how a one sided script can bias. And then you ignore the obvious.
The basic analogy is how I put it. The prospect of China in Canada, possibly moving atomic weapons there, would get a preemptive response from the US. We have seen this previously from the US as you know.
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Absolutely no way NATO would put nuclear weapons on Ukraine soil ( if that’s what you’re intimating) that really would give Putin the green light to up the anti.
Where do these ridiculous assumptions of yours come from?
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Are you saying NATO wouldn't put any missiles on Ukraine soil?
Focusing on one thing I said, you appear oblivious to the rest, the main point. Of course the US would react vigorously in that situation I described.
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I wonder if BRR is paid by the FSB
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I wonder if BRR is paid by the FSB
He wishes!!
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I wonder if BRR is paid by the FSB
Doing his best to get on the payroll.
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According to US figures the Ukraine has lost 400,000
Dead compared to Russias 50,000 https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwjB2N2cu--DAxWGUEEAHWFAAlwQFnoECBwQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.nytimes.com%2F2023%2F08%2F18%2Fus%2Fpolitics%2Fukraine-russia-war-casualties.html&usg=AOvVaw2608S_4ncM6rsY18VnA6Lu&opi=89978449
Just been watching Tucker Carlson interview a Colonel Magregor, ex Vietnam war vet, who pointed out quite a few truths, large numbers of Ukrainian troops starting to surrender to the Russian army as their particular unit has been cut off and has heavy casualties who can’t be evacuated, hence commanders are openly contacting the Russians and negotiating local surrenders as they know their troops will be well treated. The Russians have from day one been treating prisoners of war very fairly so Ukrainians know they can easily surrender, the sabre rattling over the last couple of weeks is a very worrying trend as Western leaders seem to be escalating the conflict with talk of ramping up weapon supplies including ‘short range’ low level Nuclear!
As I have said before the map is not going to change and we need to get the Ukraine to accept a peace deal.
Colonel Macgregor pointed out that the Russians have been building up their war machine and have 300,000 men on standby.
The war has stagnated into a World War One scenario
The Russians are well dug in hence the disproportionate casualties. Their use of Saterlites and other well developed surveillance techniques means you can’t freely move about at the front without being targets and liquidated. Example the Abram’s Tank has a jet engine which burns up to 1,000 degrees each tank lites up on Saterlite imaging like a Christmas tree,
Hence they are stored away, the latest arms Supply worth $750 million included 33 Patriot SAM missiles, 3 days worth at current usage.
A large number of military age Ukrainian men are doing a runner as they don’t want to end up as dog meat of limbless.
It’s time we reigned in Zelinski not encouraged him.
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You DO realise Tucker Carlson is a Russian asset, don't you?
And if the casualty figures you quote were genuinely US Govt figures, that would mean that in the last 6 months, Ukraine have had 350,000 deaths and Russia have resurrected 70,000 of their troops from the dead. Because, last August, the US Govt was citing 45,000 UA deaths and 120,000 RUS ones.
I suggest you re-read that link you posted and don't post crap like the numbers you did.
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The above has some truth but does go too far.
One thing it isn't acknowledging is the gradual advancing of the Russians. The frontlines aren't static in many places. Adiivka is one case in point. For nearly 10 years it has been a Ukraine frontline stronghold, with very deep mature fortifications. Currently being taken by Russia.
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You DO realise Tucker Carlson is a Russian asset, don't you?
And if the casualty figures you quote were genuinely US Govt figures, that would mean that in the last 6 months, Ukraine have had 350,000 deaths and Russia have resurrected 70,000 of their troops from the dead. Because, last August, the US Govt was citing 45,000 UA deaths and 120,000 RUS ones.
I suggest you re-read that link you posted and don't post crap like the numbers you did.
The figures are from the Us Govt Billy, I don’t normally put a lot of creed into Tucker Carlson, but the information is heavily corroborated with other events last week, Sweden, NATO etc
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No Sproty. Those figures aren't from the US Government. And the link you posted doesn't support that.
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Russian military transport shot down near Belgorod
65 Ukraine POWs on board and all crew killed, they were being taken to a Prisoner exchange.
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Russian military transport shot down near Belgorod
65 Ukraine POWs on board and all crew killed, they were being taken to a Prisoner exchange.
You missed off "According to the Kremlin..."
The crash has happened. That much I do accept as true. I wouldn't believe a word of the rest without independent evidence.
If Ukraine has shot down another major Russian aircraft, it would be very much in the interests of the Kremlin to say it was full of PoWs They were going to exchange.
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Allegedly the plane was on it's way back from Iran, would it really have had POWs on board? Or could it possibly have been carrying armaments back from Iran?
Also not a lot of "staff" to control all those POWs?
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Allegedly the plane was on it's way back from Iran, would it really have had POWs on board? Or could it possibly have been carrying armaments back from Iran?
Also not a lot of "staff" to control all those POWs?
A fair point ravenrover. I would have imagined there would have been 1 heavily armed Russian soldier to at least 3 pow’s, if only to show a ‘well armed to the teeth’ Russian force to ‘intimidate’ the pow’s & those involved in the handover.
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BST is a tad quiet on the deaths of civilians from deliberate shelling with cluster ammo of recent. Why would that be?
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Any comment on the allagations re the plane?
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Any comment on the allagations re the plane?
Seems Ukraine shot it down with Patriots.
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Ukraine are claiming that they have conventions where both sides tell the other if they are flying PoWs and no offensive action is taken. They say Russia said nothing about this plane.
My best bet? There were zero PoWs on board and Russia is playing mind games. While probably shooting 65 PoWs in the head.
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If the Russian story is true all they have to do is open up the crash site to independent experts. The Dutch enquiry into MH317 shows what can be reconstructed. I am not holding my breath.
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Bang on Dutch. If Ukraine really has shot down dozens of its own citizens, Russia will be inviting the whole world to come and see.
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Ukraine are claiming that they have conventions where both sides tell the other if they are flying PoWs and no offensive action is taken. They say Russia said nothing about this plane.
My best bet? There were zero PoWs on board and Russia is playing mind games. While probably shooting 65 PoWs in the head.
BST who feeds of Ukraine/NATO nipples. It may well be Russia playing games, and in the process successfully delaying the voting on the proposed half million mobilisation by Ukraine.
However, it can just as easily be that the Ukraine army skillset, the NATO intelligence, the Ukraine corruption, any of them and more, could be messed up, poorly functioning. It wouldn't be a first on all counts.
It could be Ukraines interferred who don't want the mobilisation to happen - many Ukes who have had enough of the dying, sending people to the slaughter, and knowing the war is lost. Obviously this is beyond Happy Clappy BST, and others, as are other ideas.
Russia may well have given the detailed info, and somewhere, somehow that didn't filter through the corrupt, inefficient Ukraine system. Russia wants the exchange, it wants to show off their soldiers returning home.
The Ukes were ecstatic about their success first thing this morning, and then it dawned on them what happened. It took all day to get anything out of the officials, and eventually they conceded it was an own goal after a lot of denying.
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What colour is the sky in your world BRR?
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What colour is the sky in your world BRR?
You could look up and see whilst you're doffing your cap.
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For the Ukraine and NATO supporters, here's a link to a pro Ukraine map. It is one that tends to be a little behind on real time changes, but will satisfy you and at the same time give somewhat of a reality check, unlike with the BBC etc
https://deepstatemap.live/en#10/48.1271/37.6982
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Can't see ukraine winning this without a major intervention by NATO, triggering ww3.
I wonder if they will eventually be made to give the donbass and crimea to Russia.
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For the Ukraine and NATO supporters, here's a link to a pro Ukraine map. It is one that tends to be a little behind on real time changes, but will satisfy you and at the same time give somewhat of a reality check, unlike with the BBC etc
https://deepstatemap.live/en#10/48.1271/37.6982
Can you do the Russian translation for us all comrade? )The wording not the map.
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Can't see ukraine winning this without a major intervention by NATO, triggering ww3.
I wonder if they will eventually be made to give the donbass and crimea to Russia.
Putins terms for any ceasefire will most definitely involve this. At the very least. Let’s not forget , his troops initially marched on Kyiv. He wanted the whole country to fall, not just East Ukraine.
Zelensky shows no sign of yielding though.
And so it will come down to who lasts the longest, who has the most soldiers and weapons and money and resolve.
And no doubt key to this will be the ongoing support from the West. How much longer will this support continue? Like most conflicts across the globe, over the decades, conflict fatigue will set in, politically and financially.
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If we stop supporting Ukraine because of conflict fatigue, then God help us. We'll deserve everything that will come next.
Anyone thinking that an ethno-nationalist fascist like Putin stops when he is ahead doesn't have a clue. Putin's only strength is his embodiment of Great Russia that deserves its empire.
If we let Ukraine down, what's coming is far worse than your worst nightmare.
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Seems that the psy ops have got to BST, or there's arsenic in his water.
Zelensky likely to go soon as he's not fitting the profile of the puppet needed there. Trump for sure will at least reduce or stop aid. The EU unlikely to have a united front.
So BST is v enthusiastic about sending billions to Ukraine for ever it seems, and keeping fuel and other costs high with mucking about with financial systems and causing the UK to be targeted by Houthis when it wasn't before the arse licking UK bombing.
BST really does look like Brother of STarmer.
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Give over, putin wanted to take Kiev and the whole country because he thought it was the easiest and quickest way to secure the donbass.
He nearly succeeded, if his paratroopers took Kiev airport then it would have been game over.
And within days a pupet regime would have been in place.
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Interesting developments with Belarus being primed to take part in the final stages of mopping up Ukraine - probably will gain some territory along its southern border.
Romania and Hungary have re-stated claims to the areas in the east of Ukraine that they historically owned - if Ukraine should fail. That supercedes any influence NATO/EU may try to exert. Poland to follow?
Meanwhile Russia very slowly advances all over the frontline, and is likely very soon to be creating a "buffer zone" in the area north of Kharkiv to protect the Belgorod region in Russia. Also likely this will simply be the beginning of another front as the war continues. .
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Interesting developments with Belarus being primed to take part in the final stages of mopping up Ukraine - probably will gain some territory along its southern border.
Romania and Hungary have re-stated claims to the areas in the east of Ukraine that they historically owned - if Ukraine should fail. That supercedes any influence NATO/EU may try to exert. Poland to follow?
Meanwhile Russia very slowly advances all over the frontline, and is likely very soon to be creating a "buffer zone" in the area north of Kharkiv to protect the Belgorod region in Russia. Also likely this will simply be the beginning of another front as the war continues. .
What planet are you on?
I feel sorry for you, how can you go through life believing everybody's bullshit.
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SM, I think that comment is more for the "I'm right, your wrong and I said so" thread.
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I read recently that Russia now commits an incredible 40% of its GDP to it's military and armed forces. By comparison we commit around 2.5% (and that's one of the largest commitments in Europe).
This is absolutely extraordinary and should terrify politicians across Europe....even more so if Trump wins again and begins to withdraw support to NATO.
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I read recently that Russia now commits an incredible 40% of its GDP to it's military and armed forces. By comparison we commit around 2.5% (and that's one of the largest commitments in Europe).
This is absolutely extraordinary and should terrify politicians across Europe....even more so if Trump wins again and begins to withdraw support to NATO.
That’s probably to cover losses of equipment and supply of munitions.
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Interesting developments with Belarus being primed to take part in the final stages of mopping up Ukraine - probably will gain some territory along its southern border.
Romania and Hungary have re-stated claims to the areas in the east of Ukraine that they historically owned - if Ukraine should fail. That supercedes any influence NATO/EU may try to exert. Poland to follow?
Meanwhile Russia very slowly advances all over the frontline, and is likely very soon to be creating a &quot;buffer zone&quot; in the area north of Kharkiv to protect the Belgorod region in Russia. Also likely this will simply be the beginning of another front as the war continues. .
We used to rule over large areas of France, so by your logic should we go in and try to reclaim Calais, Burgandy and Aquitaine?
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That was more one section of the French ruling over England.
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Good to see the EU united in it's support of Ukraine, all 27 countries.
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Following it's peace initiatives in Gaza, Yemen, the UK is planning g to bring peace to Ukraine should the situation get worse, "catastrophic", ie Russia continues to occupy Ukraine. Interesting angle as there is nothing whatsoever suggesting Russia will do anything else but take more territory there and wear down the AFU.
https://news.yahoo.com/uk-weighing-contingency-deploy-forces-224700651.html
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Been on the news this morning that the Ukrainian Army is struggling, they are stuck with the same troops who started the Campaign and can’t get any new recruits, so the entire Army has has 2 years of total war with no respite, the Government seems to be realising that you can’t keep troops in the Trenches without rotating or completely replacing them.
A mate of mine who lives in Croatia states the place is awash with affluent Ukrainian and Russian Draft dodgers! The Ukrainian army is having to bring in new laws to enforce Concription.dont’ expect a Ukrainian offensive any date soon!
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Until recently Ukraine has been rotating troops. Their main probem is that they have lost so many and despite plans to mobilise further, this isn't happening. That's partly due to lack of funds, partly due to people not wanting to fight, and then the planned laws aagainst draft dodging not being popular.
There was a sharp upturn in mobilisation last year, so there are a great number of their troops not having operated from the begiinning - approx half?
Over recent months there have been "recruiting" squads in operation on the streets, nightclubs, stopping cars. Many vids and reports of this. The upshot from this are that new recruits are not easily forthcoming. The age has been dropped to include 25 years and up, and up to 60, for both men and women. Women are used on the front line.
Without a signficant boost in troops, and ammo, Ukraine doesn't have a chance - as the current front line movements show.
It seems the UK is proposing getting troops into Ukraine. The most likely scenario could be replacing Ukraine police that are getting recruited, however there is resistance amongst police being recruited. Despite what most think on here from the hoorah press, Ukraines know the results of being sent to the front line, especially if they are the meatgrinder food territorials rather than with the more pro brigades.
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In the TC interview, Putin strongly suggests the Russian aim is for all land on the left bank of the Dnieper River. The expressed aim of de-Nazification of Ukraine may mean taking more than this initially, we'll see.
I'm not sure how this on its own would sufficiently subdue Ukraine's military and stop NATO membership - other expressed aims of Russia.
Up next, a two hour minute interview with Biden.
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What is this constant Nazi thing and commies get good press, they are both sides as bad as each other, for example North Korea as well as Putin's Russia.
What do some of you think to their two leaders? better, worse or the same as old Adolf? but never described as Nazi.
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For one, many Ukraine's fought for the Nazis. Some of those are nationally celebrated - note the one cheered by Zelensky in Canada if you don't want to look back at much history. Some of Ukraine's folk heroes, had statues built, celebrated in marches etc were Nazi, out and out, killed other Ukraine's, and especially Jews - they lived that. And they are celebrated in Ukraine culture. And then there's the military wing of this, the Azovs and others, sporting proudly their swastikas - clue, they're not Hindus. The Azovs celebrated by the Ukraine gov, and western media. And then the Azovs butchered Russian speaking civilians.
Russia would like that section of Ukraine society put in the history section. Fair enough I think.
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So you have a war, by the way Stalin might have done quite a bit of helping the Ukrainians turn to Germany by starving millions of Ukrainians earlier in the 1920s/30s after the revolution.
Must have been his way of gaining popularity in the Ukrainian population. and I suppose you beat yourself up over Cromwell and the potato famine in Ireland being self conscious.
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"leaders" eh? Who'd have 'em?
But good you now understand the Nazi angle.
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In the TC interview, Putin strongly suggests the Russian aim is for all land on the left bank of the Dnieper River. The expressed aim of de-Nazification of Ukraine may mean taking more than this initially, we'll see.
I'm not sure how this on its own would sufficiently subdue Ukraine's military and stop NATO membership - other expressed aims of Russia.
Up next, a two hour minute interview with Biden.
Where did the interview prove that Putin invaded Ukraine due to NATO expansionism?
That’s what the American hard-right likes to think.
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Watch the interview.
Your rhetorical hard right reference - what is that based on? Which hard right? Who? Are you generalising? Is anyone else making the point about NATO expansionist? Are you aware of any documented iplan for Ukraine to be invited to NATO?
With that statement, you are intending to make what point exactly?
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Blah blah.
This is the current border situation, including the new bits now that Finland has joined Nato. An expansion caused by Putin himself. What a genius the man is!
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NATO promised Russia it would not expand after the Cold War
FACT
Such an agreement was never made. NATO’s door has been open to new members since it was founded in 1949. This has never changed. No treaty signed by NATO Allies and Russia included provisions on NATO membership. Decisions on NATO membership are taken by consensus among all Allies. Russia does not have a veto.
The idea of NATO enlargement beyond a united Germany was not on the agenda in 1989, particularly as the Warsaw Pact still existed until 1991. Mikhail Gorbachev said in an interview in 2014: "The topic of 'NATO expansion' was not discussed at all, and it wasn't brought up in those years. I say this with full responsibility. Not a single Eastern European country raised the issue, not even after the Warsaw Pact ceased to exist in 1991. Western leaders didn't bring it up either."
Individual Allies cannot make agreements on NATO’s behalf. President Clinton consistently refused Boris Yeltsin's offer to commit that no former Soviet Republics would join NATO: "I can't make commitments on behalf of NATO, and I'm not going to be in the position myself of vetoing NATO expansion with respect to any country, much less letting you or anyone else do so… NATO operates by consensus," he said.
The wording “NATO expansion” is already part of the myth. NATO did not hunt for new members or want to “expand eastward.” NATO respects every nation’s right to choose its own path. NATO membership is a decision for NATO Allies and those countries who wish to join alone.
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Yet even the biggest fool knows Russia would not be happy, at all, with Ukraine being courted by NATO. And you talk of free choices, the US interfered, manipulated, as of course it would. It knew Russia would react. It built up Ukraine military over many years. It thought its proxy war would cripple Russia. It hasn't. It has crippled Ukraine. There's taking the apple off the tree handed to you by the US. No surprise really, except to anyone deluded.
Russia is likely to end up with all on the left bank of the Dnieper. If Ukraine is allowed peace talks without the interference of the US, eg Johnson playing lackey in scuppering previous advanced peace treaties, then it may retain Kyiv, Odessa and most of its west regions. The alternative is a costly fail. Maybe you see a different result? Please suggest how that can be.
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Yet even the biggest fool knows Russia would not be happy, at all, with Ukraine being courted by NATO. And you talk of free choices, the US interfered, manipulated, as of course it would. It knew Russia would react. It built up Ukraine military over many years. It thought its proxy war would cripple Russia. It hasn't. It has crippled Ukraine. There's taking the apple off the tree handed to you by the US. No surprise really, except to anyone deluded.
Russia is likely to end up with all on the left bank of the Dnieper. If Ukraine is allowed peace talks without the interference of the US, eg Johnson playing lackey in scuppering previous advanced peace treaties, then it may retain Kyiv, Odessa and most of its west regions. The alternative is a costly fail. Maybe you see a different result? Please suggest how that can be.
Have you seriously just referred to yourself as “the biggest fool”?
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Watch the interview.
Your rhetorical hard right reference - what is that based on? Which hard right? Who? Are you generalising? Is anyone else making the point about NATO expansionist? Are you aware of any documented iplan for Ukraine to be invited to NATO?
With that statement, you are intending to make what point exactly?
The most likely political group to not want to send aid to Ukraine are the MAGA America First republicans.
And the likes of Tucker Carlson, if you could describe him politically? Why do you think Putin accepted him for an interview?
https://x.com/rpsagainsttrump/status/1757856690244862375?s=46
That or the irrelevant conspiracy addled RFK jr followers.
The majority of the interview I understand was justifying the war from an historical and geographical angle. Unless you can timestamp me the part where he blames NATO expansionism. Because I’m not sitting through 90 mins of an imperialist dictator explain why he invaded a sovereign state.
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Mostly made up history
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Mostly made up history
"Mostly" is an exaggeration. But for sure some finer points were portrayed to suit his narrative.
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NC, every "group" has its agenda. MAGA has its, and they might be right in that persuing the same old style of US imperialism doesn't work these days. Just because someone doesn't buy into US imperialism doesn't make them MAGA fans. I'm sure you don't fall into both or neither of those regions of that Venn diagram?
Putin knew Tucker was easy meat and big publicity. A good journalist would ask more, be more incisive. Most would stay stuck on a western/US propaganda narrative, not acknowledge points that were kicked back or fully answered, preferring to be on the attack. Such journalists/interviewers are 10 a penny and just there to back their narrative.
Conspiracy - have you not advocated the fear of Russian expansionism? Have you not advocated Israeli justification for murdering tens of thousands of civilians? You choose your conspiracy, mainstream or fringe.
More than he has blamed NATO for the expansion eastwards, its a no brainer issue when it gets to Ukraine. There wasn't a signed doc/treaty, but it does seem there was a verbal agreement. Counts for nothing... except when it's violated, as it has been. Pretty intentional on behalf of the US don't you think?
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NC, every "group" has its agenda. MAGA has its, and they might be right in that persuing the same old style of US imperialism doesn't work these days. Just because someone doesn't buy into US imperialism doesn't make them MAGA fans. I'm sure you don't fall into both or neither of those regions of that Venn diagram?
Putin knew Tucker was easy meat and big publicity. A good journalist would ask more, be more incisive. Most would stay stuck on a western/US propaganda narrative, not acknowledge points that were kicked back or fully answered, preferring to be on the attack. Such journalists/interviewers are 10 a penny and just there to back their narrative.
Conspiracy - have you not advocated the fear of Russian expansionism? Have you not advocated Israeli justification for murdering tens of thousands of civilians? You choose your conspiracy, mainstream or fringe.
More than he has blamed NATO for the expansion eastwards, its a no brainer issue when it gets to Ukraine. There wasn't a signed doc/treaty, but it does seem there was a verbal agreement. Counts for nothing... except when it's violated, as it has been. Pretty intentional on behalf of the US don't you think?
Are you saying the fear of Russian expansionism is a mainstream conspiracy theory?
And what has US imperialism got to do with defending Ukraine?
No eastern bloc country is forced to join NATO. Why do you think they choose to? Are you thinking along the lines of NATO will invade Russia? I’m struggling here.
Israel / Palestine and Ukraine / Russia are completely different by the way. You’re intelligent enough to know that I thought.
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Navalny dies in prison, polonium milkshake anyone?
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NC, US imperialism is why Ukraine became an issue. Either the US would take Ukraine, or Russia would react and become significantly weaker. Neither happened, but still for ordinary people the cost is immense. The elites play their games.
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Are you saying the fear of Russian expansionism is a mainstream conspiracy theory?.....
Give me the evidence that it is fact.
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Forget all that guff you keep peddling BRR - don't you need to start explaining to everyone why Putin's political opponents keep getting chopped?
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Forget all that guff you keep peddling BRR - don't you need to start explaining to everyone why Putin's political opponents keep getting chopped?
How did his plane crash when he was in a prison Cell?
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Forget all that guff you keep peddling BRR - don't you need to start explaining to everyone why Putin's political opponents keep getting chopped?
Zelensky is still alive as far as I know. Not sure what he's done with his ex head of military who may well be the main challenge when Zelensky allows elections.
A few thousand Ukraines and a lot of armour currently trapped in Avdiivka wthout much if any chance of escape. That happened very quickly. Looking like there'll be more signficant advances by Russia over the next few months before Ukraine gets a few more parcels from the US.
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Ha ha - admit it you are unable to stop peddling guff.
President Zelensky is not a political opponent of your man Putin - he is a president of a sovereign country - nothing to do with Russia!
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Ha ha - admit it you are unable to stop peddling guff.
President Zelensky is not a political opponent of your man Putin - he is a president of a sovereign country - nothing to do with Russia!
My man Putin? Good skunk is it?
Define the "guff".
Zelensky is a puppet. The US put him in place. The US interfered with the oligarcic democratic functioning of Ukraine. The results are becoming ever evident in Ukraine, and in our pockets. Russia will have all on the left of the Dnieper, at least. The war there is accelerating. Ukraine is seriously striuggling. It won't be fighting to the last man. But if you like, keep believing the news you are fed by your masters.
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Keep peddling BRR - it's clearly your happy place.
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Are you saying the fear of Russian expansionism is a mainstream conspiracy theory?.....
Give me the evidence that it is fact.
So even once we put aside the modern wars in Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine and his siding with the despicable Assad during the Syrian civil war there’s this:
In 2005 Putin said the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century”.
In 2021 before his Ukraine invasion he described the fall of the Soviet Union as the “demise of historical Russia”.
Do you need a history lesson on the Soviet Union or are you a communist who thinks tens of millions dead was sufficient collateral damage?
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Just because you subjugate a country and rule over it for a hundred years doesn’t make it yours. The title Union of Soviet Socialist Republics makes it clear they are separate countries, a bloc rather than one nation.
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So even once we put aside the modern wars in Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine and his siding with the despicable Assad during the Syrian civil war there’s this:
In 2005 Putin said the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century”.
In 2021 before his Ukraine invasion he described the fall of the Soviet Union as the “demise of historical Russia”.
Do you need a history lesson on the Soviet Union or are you a communist who thinks tens of millions dead was sufficient collateral damage?
I think the Soviet collapse has been a catastrophe. A gentler transition from the state control would have been better all round for the states within its borders. Do you agree?
Looking outside of its borders, it gave a green flag for further US expansionism and nefarous actions including the development of Al Qahida and ISIS, and the state terrorism on Syria, Iraq, Libya, Palestine etc etc. A catastrophe indeed.
In the lead up to the invasion of course propaganda was in the pot. The US stirring, prodding and poking had been going on for many years. Ukraine was a step too far, the US knew it would get a reaction and expected a war that would both defeat Russia militarily and cripple it economically, and be able to meddle in regime change - it's what the US does. So Putin knew the likelihood of invading Ukraine was high by 2021 and delivered the story about historical Russia.
Do you a lesson in astro physics or are you continuing with efforts to attempt to dig a black hole?
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Define 'guff' said you.....
...er everything you said is the answer!
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Just because you subjugate a country and rule over it for a hundred years doesn’t make it yours. The title Union of Soviet Socialist Republics makes it clear they are separate countries, a bloc rather than one nation.
The history is beyond the Soviet Union era where it was a separate state, like Texas in the US. The borders were very variable over many centuries. Ukraine is literally the "border lands" - between Russia and Poland. Which is pretty much where it's likely to end up.
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Define 'guff' said you.....
...er everything you said is the answer!
Vague.
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So even once we put aside the modern wars in Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine and his siding with the despicable Assad during the Syrian civil war there’s this:
In 2005 Putin said the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century”.
In 2021 before his Ukraine invasion he described the fall of the Soviet Union as the “demise of historical Russia”.
Do you need a history lesson on the Soviet Union or are you a communist who thinks tens of millions dead was sufficient collateral damage?
I think the Soviet collapse has been a catastrophe. A gentler transition from the state control would have been better all round for the states within its borders. Do you agree?
Looking outside of its borders, it gave a green flag for further US expansionism and nefarous actions including the development of Al Qahida and ISIS, and the state terrorism on Syria, Iraq, Libya, Palestine etc etc. A catastrophe indeed.
In the lead up to the invasion of course propaganda was in the pot. The US stirring, prodding and poking had been going on for many years. Ukraine was a step too far, the US knew it would get a reaction and expected a war that would both defeat Russia militarily and cripple it economically, and be able to meddle in regime change - it's what the US does. So Putin knew the likelihood of invading Ukraine was high by 2021 and delivered the story about historical Russia.
Do you a lesson in astro physics or are you continuing with efforts to attempt to dig a black hole?
By expansionism you mean sovereign Countries applying to join NATO for their own protection?
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So even once we put aside the modern wars in Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine and his siding with the despicable Assad during the Syrian civil war there’s this:
In 2005 Putin said the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century”.
In 2021 before his Ukraine invasion he described the fall of the Soviet Union as the “demise of historical Russia”.
Do you need a history lesson on the Soviet Union or are you a communist who thinks tens of millions dead was sufficient collateral damage?
I think the Soviet collapse has been a catastrophe. A gentler transition from the state control would have been better all round for the states within its borders. Do you agree?
Looking outside of its borders, it gave a green flag for further US expansionism and nefarous actions including the development of Al Qahida and ISIS, and the state terrorism on Syria, Iraq, Libya, Palestine etc etc. A catastrophe indeed.
In the lead up to the invasion of course propaganda was in the pot. The US stirring, prodding and poking had been going on for many years. Ukraine was a step too far, the US knew it would get a reaction and expected a war that would both defeat Russia militarily and cripple it economically, and be able to meddle in regime change - it's what the US does. So Putin knew the likelihood of invading Ukraine was high by 2021 and delivered the story about historical Russia.
Do you a lesson in astro physics or are you continuing with efforts to attempt to dig a black hole?
By expansionism you mean sovereign Countries applying to join NATO for their own protection?
I was referring to US expansionism worldwide, as per what I wrote.
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Interesting to notice a significant increase in vids made by Ukraine platoons etc where there are complaints about the military situation, suggestions for Ukraine to end the war ie surrender. Obviously this is not the whole picture but a snapshot that appears to show a trend. This can very quickly accelerate.
The order for troops to retreat from Avdiivka was only after troops there had abandonned positions against orders. The Azovs had been sent into Avdiivka to give support to the troops there but saw the situation and themselves made the decision to get out of there to the outlying villages. They had been staunch supporters of Zaluzhnyi and after he had been dismissed they had been moved away from Kyiv to wards Avdiivka. There are suggestions that this was done partly to lessen the chance of a coup in Kyiv at this time.
This situation of exhaustion and discontent is known by the west and is proably why Zelensky has been moved away from Ukraine for the moment, for protection.
For sure some of you will think this is made up and simply pro Russian propaganda. It is info mainly from Ukraines. You can do your own research. Or sit back and watch your hard earned cash invested by our fine government in the US led coup turn into Ruble.
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So even once we put aside the modern wars in Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine and his siding with the despicable Assad during the Syrian civil war there’s this:
In 2005 Putin said the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century”.
In 2021 before his Ukraine invasion he described the fall of the Soviet Union as the “demise of historical Russia”.
Do you need a history lesson on the Soviet Union or are you a communist who thinks tens of millions dead was sufficient collateral damage?
I think the Soviet collapse has been a catastrophe. A gentler transition from the state control would have been better all round for the states within its borders. Do you agree?
Looking outside of its borders, it gave a green flag for further US expansionism and nefarous actions including the development of Al Qahida and ISIS, and the state terrorism on Syria, Iraq, Libya, Palestine etc etc. A catastrophe indeed.
In the lead up to the invasion of course propaganda was in the pot. The US stirring, prodding and poking had been going on for many years. Ukraine was a step too far, the US knew it would get a reaction and expected a war that would both defeat Russia militarily and cripple it economically, and be able to meddle in regime change - it's what the US does. So Putin knew the likelihood of invading Ukraine was high by 2021 and delivered the story about historical Russia.
Do you a lesson in astro physics or are you continuing with efforts to attempt to dig a black hole?
You are confusing intervensionism with expansionism.
Regarding interventionism, I notice you didn’t mention Afghanistan. Because of course the soviets helped to create instability there in the 70s and 80s in helping to overthrow the government with socialists and then started a war with the resistance.
Yes the US interventionism was ill-advised in hindsight in the likes of Iraq. Expecting to be able to build a democratic nation in such an environment was naive.
Again Israel / Palestine isn’t the simple war you think it is.
Putin also intervened in Syria. But took the side of his fellow dictator who wreaked havoc against his own population with chemical weapons. Let me guess, you think that was fake news?
And anyway, we’re talking about Russia. Please try to defend it in a fashion that doesn’t involve whataboutery and ad hominem attacks.
Chechnya, Ukraine and South Ossetia is expansionism.
Your reflexive contrarianism is not the critical thinking you think it is.
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The Ukrainian army having lost the Avidiivka pocket are now going to ‘Dig In’ and hold the Russians off! The Russians will consolidate their Positons and that will be the end, The Ukraine does not have the Military capacity or manpower to punch through Russias lines.
Sleepy Joe needs to wake up and tell Zehlinsky to make peace.
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So even once we put aside the modern wars in Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine and his siding with the despicable Assad during the Syrian civil war there’s this:
In 2005 Putin said the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century”.
In 2021 before his Ukraine invasion he described the fall of the Soviet Union as the “demise of historical Russia”.
Do you need a history lesson on the Soviet Union or are you a communist who thinks tens of millions dead was sufficient collateral damage?
I think the Soviet collapse has been a catastrophe. A gentler transition from the state control would have been better all round for the states within its borders. Do you agree?
Looking outside of its borders, it gave a green flag for further US expansionism and nefarous actions including the development of Al Qahida and ISIS, and the state terrorism on Syria, Iraq, Libya, Palestine etc etc. A catastrophe indeed.
In the lead up to the invasion of course propaganda was in the pot. The US stirring, prodding and poking had been going on for many years. Ukraine was a step too far, the US knew it would get a reaction and expected a war that would both defeat Russia militarily and cripple it economically, and be able to meddle in regime change - it's what the US does. So Putin knew the likelihood of invading Ukraine was high by 2021 and delivered the story about historical Russia.
Do you a lesson in astro physics or are you continuing with efforts to attempt to dig a black hole?
You are confusing intervensionism with expansionism.
Regarding interventionism, I notice you didn’t mention Afghanistan. Because of course the soviets helped to create instability there in the 70s and 80s in helping to overthrow the government with socialists and then started a war with the resistance.
Yes the US interventionism was ill-advised in hindsight in the likes of Iraq. Expecting to be able to build a democratic nation in such an environment was naive.
Again Israel / Palestine isn’t the simple war you think it is.
Putin also intervened in Syria. But took the side of his fellow dictator who wreaked havoc against his own population with chemical weapons. Let me guess, you think that was fake news?
And anyway, we’re talking about Russia. Please try to defend it in a fashion that doesn’t involve whataboutery and ad hominem attacks.
Chechnya, Ukraine and South Ossetia is expansionism.
Your reflexive contrarianism is not the critical thinking you think it is.
In the above you might be able to see how you invoked external conflicts to attempt to make your point.
You also asked if I needed a lesson in history. Cheeky boy. So, ad hominem - own goal mate.
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Interesting to notice a significant increase in vids made by Ukraine platoons etc where there are complaints about the military situation, suggestions for Ukraine to end the war ie surrender. Obviously this is not the whole picture but a snapshot that appears to show a trend. This can very quickly accelerate.
The order for troops to retreat from Avdiivka was only after troops there had abandonned positions against orders. The Azovs had been sent into Avdiivka to give support to the troops there but saw the situation and themselves made the decision to get out of there to the outlying villages. They had been staunch supporters of Zaluzhnyi and after he had been dismissed they had been moved away from Kyiv to wards Avdiivka. There are suggestions that this was done partly to lessen the chance of a coup in Kyiv at this time.
This situation of exhaustion and discontent is known by the west and is proably why Zelensky has been moved away from Ukraine for the moment, for protection.
For sure some of you will think this is made up and simply pro Russian propaganda. It is info mainly from Ukraines. You can do your own research. Or sit back and watch your hard earned cash invested by our fine government in the US led coup turn into Ruble.
Bollox.
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Is that you being disappointed, cocker?
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The threat to the world isn't Putin. It's his side kick, Medvedev.
The man is seriously mentally ill.
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The threat to the world isn't Putin. It's his side kick, Medvedev.
The man is seriously mentally ill.
All mental what with their soldiers weilding shovels and now their top brass lashing out like this.
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So even once we put aside the modern wars in Chechnya, Georgia, Ukraine and his siding with the despicable Assad during the Syrian civil war there’s this:
In 2005 Putin said the collapse of the Soviet empire “was the greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century”.
In 2021 before his Ukraine invasion he described the fall of the Soviet Union as the “demise of historical Russia”.
Do you need a history lesson on the Soviet Union or are you a communist who thinks tens of millions dead was sufficient collateral damage?
I think the Soviet collapse has been a catastrophe. A gentler transition from the state control would have been better all round for the states within its borders. Do you agree?
Looking outside of its borders, it gave a green flag for further US expansionism and nefarous actions including the development of Al Qahida and ISIS, and the state terrorism on Syria, Iraq, Libya, Palestine etc etc. A catastrophe indeed.
In the lead up to the invasion of course propaganda was in the pot. The US stirring, prodding and poking had been going on for many years. Ukraine was a step too far, the US knew it would get a reaction and expected a war that would both defeat Russia militarily and cripple it economically, and be able to meddle in regime change - it's what the US does. So Putin knew the likelihood of invading Ukraine was high by 2021 and delivered the story about historical Russia.
Do you a lesson in astro physics or are you continuing with efforts to attempt to dig a black hole?
You are confusing intervensionism with expansionism.
Regarding interventionism, I notice you didn’t mention Afghanistan. Because of course the soviets helped to create instability there in the 70s and 80s in helping to overthrow the government with socialists and then started a war with the resistance.
Yes the US interventionism was ill-advised in hindsight in the likes of Iraq. Expecting to be able to build a democratic nation in such an environment was naive.
Again Israel / Palestine isn’t the simple war you think it is.
Putin also intervened in Syria. But took the side of his fellow dictator who wreaked havoc against his own population with chemical weapons. Let me guess, you think that was fake news?
And anyway, we’re talking about Russia. Please try to defend it in a fashion that doesn’t involve whataboutery and ad hominem attacks.
Chechnya, Ukraine and South Ossetia is expansionism.
Your reflexive contrarianism is not the critical thinking you think it is.
In the above you might be able to see how you invoked external conflicts to attempt to make your point.
You also asked if I needed a lesson in history. Cheeky boy. So, ad hominem - own goal mate.
Ad hominem as in dismissing any western voice / media in having an opinion on this as biased rather than challenging what was said.
But I think I did take the mickey out of you referencing Russell Brand after he’d said his allegations were a media plot to silence his truth-seeking, so I’ll hold my hands up there.
I brought up external conflicts because you can’t make a point without bringing irrelevant “US expansionism” in to it. So I thought I’d compare and contrast.
Do you think Navalny deserved to be imprisoned? And do you think he died naturally? When a lot of Putin’s critics “fall from buildings” or are poisoned (Litvinenko), thinking Navakny was murdered is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to jump to.
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I think that most Russians will have jumped to the same conclusion which is probably just what Putin intended.
I once saw a story where Khrushchev was addressing a meeting after some time after Stalin’s death and decrying him. Somebody in the audience shouted out “Why didn’t you say this while he was alive”?
Khrushchev asked “Who said that”? When nobody owned up he said something like there’s your answer.
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Do you think Navalny deserved to be imprisoned? And do you think he died naturally? When a lot of Putin’s critics “fall from buildings” or are poisoned (Litvinenko), thinking Navakny was murdered is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to jump to.
I don't know the details of his guilt. I don't know who is backing him, what international connections he is entwined with. I wouldn't be surprised if the CIA and similar have been connected with him. Do you?
Chances are his death was brought about in some way by the authorities. Wait and see.
Any other deaths in prison you're concerned about? Any other incarcerations based on being politically inconvenient that concern you?
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Do you think Navalny deserved to be imprisoned? And do you think he died naturally? When a lot of Putin’s critics “fall from buildings” or are poisoned (Litvinenko), thinking Navakny was murdered is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to jump to.
I don't know the details of his guilt.
Why does General Melchett and a black cap spring to mind?
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You could at least pick plums with your cherries. And then some context with you tabloid headline. Tell me about Navalny, his foreign connections, the funding sources, his politics, his level of support within Russia. See, I'm being helpful here.
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Do you think Navalny deserved to be imprisoned? And do you think he died naturally? When a lot of Putin’s critics “fall from buildings” or are poisoned (Litvinenko), thinking Navakny was murdered is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to jump to.
I don't know the details of his guilt. I don't know who is backing him, what international connections he is entwined with. I wouldn't be surprised if the CIA and similar have been connected with him. Do you?
Chances are his death was brought about in some way by the authorities. Wait and see.
Any other deaths in prison you're concerned about? Any other incarcerations based on being politically inconvenient that concern you?
If he’d been in league with the CIA then he’d have been charged with espionage. He hasn’t. He has been charged with “fraud” and “extremism”.
Someone with such anti-establishment inclinations such as yourself should be able to see that these can be very subjective when the state in question is incredibly authoritarian.
But yeah keep comparing him to Assange who was rightly charged with espionage and given far more of a fair trial than Navalny.
You’re also free to have your rebellious opinion about Assange here because you live in a nice cosy liberal democracy. Look at those who simply laid flowers in memory of Navalny in Russia.
There is no moral equivalency. Assange leaked the names of Afghan informants to the Taliban for example. He said “Well they’re informants, so if they get killed they’ve got it coming to them. They deserved it”.
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Hot on the heels of Navalnies sad demise, I see the Russian Pilot who defected to Ukraine(in a Russian military helicopter )has been found dead in Villajoyosa, Costa blanca. Riddled with bullets and run over . Maksim Kuzminov.
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Hot on the heels of Navalnies sad demise, I see the Russian Pilot who defected to Ukraine(in a Russian military helicopter )has been found dead in Villajoyosa, Costa blanca. Riddled with bullets and run over . Maksim Kuzminov.
BRR will be along in a minute to insist it was natural causes…..
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Hot on the heels of Navalnies sad demise, I see the Russian Pilot who defected to Ukraine(in a Russian military helicopter )has been found dead in Villajoyosa, Costa blanca. Riddled with bullets and run over . Maksim Kuzminov.
BRR will be along in a minute to insist it was natural causes…..
CIA false flag operation
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It will be interesting to see if the Spanish authorities knew he was there. Not the best place to put a person/ family in hiding / protection given Poo tin himself is rumoured to have his own pad in La Zagaleta, meaning there will be plenty of Russian SVR operating in that country already.
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Do you think Navalny deserved to be imprisoned? And do you think he died naturally? When a lot of Putin’s critics “fall from buildings” or are poisoned (Litvinenko), thinking Navakny was murdered is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to jump to.
I don't know the details of his guilt. I don't know who is backing him, what international connections he is entwined with. I wouldn't be surprised if the CIA and similar have been connected with him. Do you?
Chances are his death was brought about in some way by the authorities. Wait and see.
Any other deaths in prison you're concerned about? Any other incarcerations based on being politically inconvenient that concern you?
If he’d been in league with the CIA then he’d have been charged with espionage. He hasn’t. He has been charged with “fraud” and “extremism”.
Someone with such anti-establishment inclinations such as yourself should be able to see that these can be very subjective when the state in question is incredibly authoritarian.
But yeah keep comparing him to Assange who was rightly charged with espionage and given far more of a fair trial than Navalny.
You’re also free to have your rebellious opinion about Assange here because you live in a nice cosy liberal democracy. Look at those who simply laid flowers in memory of Navalny in Russia.
There is no moral equivalency. Assange leaked the names of Afghan informants to the Taliban for example. He said “Well they’re informants, so if they get killed they’ve got it coming to them. They deserved it”.
Fair enough, you know almost nothing about him. Just a vent for your opinions.
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An important thread for everyone to read on how Russia are getting around sanctions. Not good.
https://x.com/edconwaysky/status/1760348194741891241?s=46
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Liars and frauds at 20 paces ........
''Boris Johnson withdrew from Tucker Carlson debate after Navalny death
Johnson had agreed to debate with rightwinger, who interviewed Putin, for $1m fee which his team says would have gone to charity''
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/feb/21/boris-johnson-withdrew-from-tucker-carlson-debate-after-navalny-death
who would believe either of them ..................
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If recent reports are true, in the last few days Russia are losing one thousand men a day in casualties for little gain just the odd small village.
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If recent reports are true, in the last few days Russia are losing one thousand men a day in casualties for little gain just the odd small village.
Where are you getting your info from?
Have you looked at Avdeevka?
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Whilst Biden struggles to climb the stairs and remember what day it is, Sunak struggles to use a contact less car or wear his seat belt, we have this...
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/putin-fly-modernised-russian-supersonic-strategic-bomber-2024-02-22/
I know you all will hate this, but you have gotta laugh at how outclassed our current gang is. "crazy son of a bitch" , eh! :cool:
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Putin is doing everything possible to deny Navalny getting a dignified public funeral and thus prevent a show of support from the public.
His mother was given an ultimatum to agree to a secret funeral or would be buried at the prison he was likely murdered at.
But nah let’s ogle at fighter jet propaganda like a pre-pubescent little boy.
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Also - I appreciate you’re getting at the fact the west is weak but you basically want it to roll over and let Russia take half of Ukraine. So why bring it up?
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If recent reports are true, in the last few days Russia are losing one thousand men a day in casualties for little gain just the odd small village.
Where are you getting your info from?
Have you looked at Avdeevka?
How about doing what you tell other people to do when you're challenged about the stuff you spout and go and Google it for yourself?
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If recent reports are true, in the last few days Russia are losing one thousand men a day in casualties for little gain just the odd small village.
3 more aircraft lost yesterday. On average they have lost $750 million of aircraft per WEEK so far this month. Looks like Putin (or one of the doubles he has doing his stunts) will be needing his flying training soon.
https://twitter.com/benmoores2
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If recent reports are true, in the last few days Russia are losing one thousand men a day in casualties for little gain just the odd small village.
3 more aircraft lost yesterday. On average they have lost $750 million of aircraft per WEEK so far this month. Looks like Putin (or one of the doubles he has doing his stunts) will be needing his flying training soon.
https://twitter.com/benmoores2
2 A50s gone this year. Out of, I think, 5-7 in the entire Russian air force. That's a massive loss at $350m a piece, and no quick way to replace them.
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spontaneous combustion ............
''On the second anniversary of Russia's full-scale invasion of Ukraine, a fire erupted at the main plant of Russian steelmaker Novolipetsk Steel (NLMK), according to statements from the regional governor.
Initial reports suggest that the fire at the Novolipetsk Steel plant may have been triggered by a drone, Lipetsk regional Governor Igor Artamonov said via his official Telegram channel, refraining from attributing the incident to Ukraine''
https://kyivindependent.com/fire-reported-at-russian-steelmaker-in-lipetsk-oblast/
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Also - I appreciate you’re getting at the fact the west is weak but you basically want it to roll over and let Russia take half of Ukraine. So why bring it up?
Lots of passionate assumptions there. The west getting weak is true tho.
Navalny was a US stooge. Why would Russia allow a US sponsored funeral? Of course you, like most here, believe he was just a "lovely maaan".
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The peddling of Putin guff continues I see - you just can't help yourself BRR - have you managed to recruit many to your cause?
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The peddling of Putin guff continues I see - you just can't help yourself BRR - have you managed to recruit many to your cause?
Have you said anything yet? :zzz:
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For some time tjere has been blockading of Ukraine exports going into Poland, mainly by Polish farmers. This situation has been gradually hotting up. 160 tons of grain destroyed on the border on 25 Feb.
https://www.rferl.org/a/ukrainian-grain-destroyed-poland-farmers-protest-border/32834662.html
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Also - I appreciate you’re getting at the fact the west is weak but you basically want it to roll over and let Russia take half of Ukraine. So why bring it up?
Lots of passionate assumptions there. The west getting weak is true tho.
Navalny was a US stooge. Why would Russia allow a US sponsored funeral? Of course you, like most here, believe he was just a "lovely maaan".
Can you prove he was?
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What have you found out about him? Have you looked?
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Those who won't face up to what Russia is.
This is from the Russian Senator for the invaded Ukrainian oblast of Zaphphorizha.
https://x.com/JimmySecUK/status/1761778775753118126?s=20
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And apparently the Special Military Operation is aimed at de-Nazifying Ukraine...
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What have you found out about him? Have you looked?
I’ve looked in to him and I can’t find evidence of that, so i’m asking you
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''Russia’s descent into totalitarianism: How it happened''
''It is difficult to pin down the exact moment that Russia began morphing into a totalitarian state, but the transformation didn’t take long.
For over a decade, the Kremlin was taking away civil liberties and feeding the population a revamped and increasingly more aggressive version of nationalism. For nearly a decade, most Russians didn't seem to care.
In 2012, the Kremlin ruthlessly ended the wave of demonstrations known as the Bolotnaya protests. Named for the square in Moscow where demonstrators gathered, the rallies began in December 2011, when thousands of Russians flooded the streets to protest against election fraud.
Among key protest leaders were charismatic opposition politicians such as Boris Nemtsov and Alexei Navalny. Many believed Russia could see its own pro-democracy revolution inspired by the bubbling tail-end of the Arab Spring.
That dream, however, never materialized. Russian President Vladimir Putin was reelected as president for the third time, methodically decreasing the space for dissent.
"Afterwards, (Putin) became fully invested in this narrative that Russia is surrounded by enemies. That's when the regime fundamentally changed the basis of its legitimacy from electoral and economic performance to a national fight against the West in the name of Russian civilization," says Graeme B. Robertson, director of the Center for Slavic, Eurasian and East European Studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill'' .............. cont
https://kyivindependent.com/russias-decade-long-fall-into-totalitarianism-explained/
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Russia’s default setting is authoritarianism and imperialism.
Pre-Soviet era the Tsars ruled the vast empire with an iron fist.
Then of course the Soviet era. The horrors of which are well-known.
Russia only had democracy between 1991-1999 and it was a period of weakness for them. Even still, Russian parliament was created in 1991 but then dissolved in 1993 by Yeltsin and replaced with a “super-presedential system” that could not be overruled effectively.
They are taught in school that a strong leader is required or the country would see a return to the “Time of Troubles” (1598-1613) where there was widespread famine and invasions from neighbouring countries.
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What have you found out about him? Have you looked?
I’ve looked in to him and I can’t find evidence of that, so i’m asking you
You haven't looked them.
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And apparently the Special Military Operation is aimed at de-Nazifying Ukraine...
Yes, that's very bad, he should be dismissed immediately.
I note that you class this alongside the out and out murderous Nazis of Ukraine. Pretty pathetic is that BST.
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The first step in a fascist movement is the combination under an energetic leader of a number of men who possess more than the average share of leisure, brutality, and stupidity. The next step is to fascinate fools and muzzle the intelligent, by emotional excitement on the one hand and terrorism on the other.
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Also - I appreciate you’re getting at the fact the west is weak but you basically want it to roll over and let Russia take half of Ukraine. So why bring it up?
Lots of passionate assumptions there. The west getting weak is true tho.
Navalny was a US stooge. Why would Russia allow a US sponsored funeral? Of course you, like most here, believe he was just a "lovely maaan".
Just read that last paragraph back to yourself….slowly.
An opponent of Putin dies at the age of 47 in a Russian prison the day after he was shown on film ‘attending’ yet another court hearing (where his easy manner & wit while standing handcuffed with guards stood either side of him) had even his prosecutor’s smiling & all you can do is mock him.
I wouldn’t normally wish ill on anyone, but for you I’d make the exception.
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What a twotty comment.
Try reading what I said again. And tell me he was independent. And then take your twotty head for a much needed break.
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I think you’ve said it all there….about the kind of person you are.
I trust you one day get to feel the pain & grief & despair that Navalny’s mother will be feeling now.
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I think you’ve said it all there….about the kind of person you are.
I trust you one day get to feel the pain & grief & despair that Navalny’s mother will be feeling now.
Oy ya pussy, what have I said "right there"?
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This is interesting from the New York Times.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2024/02/26/nrdz-f26.html
In brief, there's a summary of NYT quotes there, and some giving of context. The NYT is talking about the CIA bases in Ukraine, since pre 2014, and the implication there is their involvement with the Ukraine "revolution" etc etc. Same old US regime changing.
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This is interesting from the New York Times.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2024/02/26/nrdz-f26.html
In brief, there's a summary of NYT quotes there, and some giving of context. The NYT is talking about the CIA bases in Ukraine, since pre 2014, and the implication there is their involvement with the Ukraine "revolution" etc etc. Same old US regime changing.
You talk absolute bollox.
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Despite the threats, jail and killings .........
''Mourners chant Navalny’s name as funeral of Putin critic begins in Moscow – Russia-Ukraine war live''
https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/mar/01/funeral-alexei-navalny-moscow-putin-russia-ukraine-war-live
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He did have support, a significant part of that purely as opposition to the ruling elite, some of it for his very nasty policies - no one here has touched on that, possibly through ignorance, possibly because they approve.
Also it's worth cutting through the beeb propaganda here and checking out what his popularity ratings were.
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He did have support, a significant part of that purely as opposition to the ruling elite, some of it for his very nasty policies - no one here has touched on that, possibly through ignorance, possibly because they approve.
Also it's worth cutting through the beeb propaganda here and checking out what his popularity ratings were.
If you were British PM would you throw your political enemies in jail and poison them?
It doesn’t matter what his policies were or how unpopular he was.
So Putin is perfect and he has no strong opposition because of that?
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He did have support, a significant part of that purely as opposition to the ruling elite, some of it for his very nasty policies - no one here has touched on that, possibly through ignorance, possibly because they approve.
Also it's worth cutting through the beeb propaganda here and checking out what his popularity ratings were.
Nasty policies like invading a sovereign state?
Or nasty policies like becoming an anti corruption activist?
Putin has been in power for 24 years & is about to ‘run’ for a further 6 years.
Is that because the Russian people love him, or because Putin has ‘outlawed’ any opposition parties?
Or perhaps it’s because once in power Putin implemented a system of ‘managed democracy’ which basically translates to ‘elections without change’.
The wrong man was murdered in an Artic prison.
Do not even think about personally abusing me again…..ever.
In fact, I have decided where you are concerned I shall adopt Putins system. There will be no opposition to my post from you.
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He did have support, a significant part of that purely as opposition to the ruling elite, some of it for his very nasty policies - no one here has touched on that, possibly through ignorance, possibly because they approve.
Also it's worth cutting through the beeb propaganda here and checking out what his popularity ratings were.
If you were British PM would you throw your political enemies in jail and poison them?
It doesn’t matter what his policies were or how unpopular he was.
So Putin is perfect and he has no strong opposition because of that?
Not at all. If Navalny was poisoned of course it's evil, sick. Anyone even harrassing another because they disagree with them is screwed up. It's what controlling elites do, it's what twisted bullies do. There is no excuse.
And then there is context which I've already mentioned.
Likewise there are ithers in westen jails, and the guy killed in a Ukraine jail for his views. In a lesser but similar way, Corbyn was shut down by the people that rule our country. This is all linked.
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....
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Putin-imposed head of occupied Zaphphorizha crowing about the fact they have deported Ukrainian families. A war crime.
https://twitter.com/den_kazansky/status/1762398536874741872
It's frankly horrifying to think what will have been going on in the occupied territories over the past two years, outside the field of view of the outside world.
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....
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Another Russian ship destroyed by the Uke/UK sea drones. I can't understand how the Russians allow this. Surely it's easy as to defend against it?
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Putin-imposed head of occupied Zaphphorizha crowing about the fact they have deported Ukrainian families. A war crime.
https://twitter.com/den_kazansky/status/1762398536874741872
It's frankly horrifying to think what will have been going on in the occupied territories over the past two years, outside the field of view of the outside world.
Still waiting for your solution to the war BST… patiently!
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Apparently a bunch of high ranking Ukraine military who were dismissed as they supported Zaluzhnyi, who was sacked, have defected to Russia.
Various other reports today include 3 Himars destroyed, the third Abrams, an S 300 air defence (a few patriots also in recent days), and continued Russian advances. Just passing on news your beeb feed won't be passing on. Things worsening for Ukraine by the day. Peace treaty?
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British intelligence backed up by the US are giving numbers out that Russia is losing 800 to a thousand personnel a day BR, plus capital ships, factories being bombed, aircraft faster than they can be replaced, the two air command planes costing millions to gain little villages.
They must be the costliest square feet of land ever on this planet, the Russian people, and the families of those that have been lost for so little are either thick, brain washed, or frightened to death, to let themselves be led into such an idiotic position. because of mainly personnel pride and down right cussedness. That's all Putin and his honchos have got with complete disdain of the people they are supposed to lead.
The old saying "Lions led by a Donkey" doesn't do him justice
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Yes, Russians loosing troops, Ukraine moreso if we go with what you say. Also, ukraine failing to replace them - hence retreating all round. Just facts.
Some Russian losses of planes, not pilots, though in looking at what's more precious, how much does a Patriot system cost? And Russia has recently sent a few new squadrons to the "front" including the newer SU57. Judging by the extent of guided FAB bombing, there isn't a shortage of.
Avdeevka isn't a little village. And anyway, as you know, the point is wearing the opposition down, inevitably so. The US, NATO, etc know that Ukraine is a loss, have done for some time. Their proxy war failed, yet they STILL sponsor the killing and sacrifice.
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Another Russian ship destroyed by the Uke/UK sea drones. I can't understand how the Russians allow this. Surely it's easy as to defend against it?
Pointless attack, waste of lives
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''Total bilateral aid commitments to Ukraine as a percentage of 2021 donor country gross domestic product (GDP) between January 24, 2022 and January 15, 2024, by country''
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/
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''Total bilateral aid commitments to Ukraine as a percentage of 2021 donor country gross domestic product (GDP) between January 24, 2022 and January 15, 2024, by country''
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/
That’s quite a chunk off NHS Funding amongst other things!
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I've said for years that it was weird to look back to the Thirties and realise that people were saying we should cosy up to Hitler and not stop him expanding the Third Reich.
I always assumed we'd learned from that. But there are people in here who would have us make exactly the same mistake today. Either they really don't get history, or they get aroused by fascism.
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A Russian missile landed within 100 metres of President Zelenskyy & visiting Greek Prime Minister Mitsotakis & his diplomats today in the port of Odessa, five people (non of them Greek) were killed.
What would NATO’s response have been if a Prime Minister of one of its ‘most important’ nation states had been killed?
Putin will one day blow his own head off playing ‘Russian Roulette’.
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I've said for years that it was weird to look back to the Thirties and realise that people were saying we should cosy up to Hitler and not stop him expanding the Third Reich.
I always assumed we'd learned from that. But there are people in here who would have us make exactly the same mistake today. Either they really don't get history, or they get aroused by fascism.
Billy, who are “the people in here” that you are talking about.
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I've said for years that it was weird to look back to the Thirties and realise that people were saying we should cosy up to Hitler and not stop him expanding the Third Reich.
I always assumed we'd learned from that. But there are people in here who would have us make exactly the same mistake today. Either they really don't get history, or they get aroused by fascism.
There's BST hanging out with Jeeves and Wooster, again, whilst the rest of the world has moved on from Butlers and stiff collars.
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A Russian missile landed within 100 metres of President Zelenskyy & visiting Greek Prime Minister Mitsotakis & his diplomats today in the port of Odessa, five people (non of them Greek) were killed.
What would NATO’s response have been if a Prime Minister of one of its ‘most important’ nation states had been killed?
Putin will one day blow his own head off playing ‘Russian Roulette’.
NATO leaders have to go to Ukraine to keep up the pretence that everything is going well. It isn't. They know it. They will stop the visits. This was possibly the watershed.
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I've said for years that it was weird to look back to the Thirties and realise that people were saying we should cosy up to Hitler and not stop him expanding the Third Reich.
I always assumed we'd learned from that. But there are people in here who would have us make exactly the same mistake today. Either they really don't get history, or they get aroused by fascism.
Billy, who are “the people in here” that you are talking about.
Voices in his head.
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sprot:
The Ukrainian army having lost the Avidiivka pocket are now going to ‘Dig In’ and hold the Russians off! The Russians will consolidate their Positons and that will be the end, The Ukraine does not have the Military capacity or manpower to punch through Russias lines.
Sleepy Joe needs to wake up and tell Zehlinsky to make peace.
''Total bilateral aid commitments to Ukraine as a percentage of 2021 donor country gross domestic product (GDP) between January 24, 2022 and January 15, 2024, by country''
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/
That’s quite a chunk off NHS Funding amongst other things!
Sounds like you're getting ready to give it up sprot
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A Russian missile landed within 100 metres of President Zelenskyy &amp; visiting Greek Prime Minister Mitsotakis &amp; his diplomats today in the port of Odessa, five people (non of them Greek) were killed.
What would NATO’s response have been if a Prime Minister of one of its ‘most important’ nation states had been killed?
Putin will one day blow his own head off playing ‘Russian Roulette’.
NATO leaders have to go to Ukraine to keep up the pretence that everything is going well. It isn't. They know it. They will stop the visits. This was possibly the watershed.
NATO leaders DON’T have to go to a country at war for any other reason than to show their support. You’re deluded & clearly anti-democracy if you think otherwise.
Any ‘watershed moment’ would be totally on Putin’s conscience. His missile very nearly killed a democratically elected leader of a country whose ‘protection’ comes under NATO’s ‘umbrella’.
There could have been dire consequences for us all if Putin’s rabid actions had resulted in such an outcome.
The visit’s by other western leaders will not stop, mark my words.
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The missile being spoke of was aimed at, and hit, a factory/storage unit for the sea drones. As they are UK coordinated, likely there would be some UK casualties there too.
If you walk across a busy road with a blindfold, you are asking for trouble. No nukes coming from that story.
The other side of the story is Russia being able to take out Zelensky but choosing not to. Why might that be?
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The missile being spoke of was aimed at, and hit, a factory/storage unit for the sea drones. As they are UK coordinated, likely there would be some UK casualties there too.
If you walk across a busy road with a blindfold, you are asking for trouble. No nukes coming from that story.
The other side of the story is Russia being able to take out Zelensky but choosing not to. Why might that be?
It landed 100 metres from this group.
Obviously at that distance it was meant as a ‘frightener’, no more.
No UK casualties as ‘they’ surprise, surprise, were all in the UK.
Didn’t understand the bit about blindfold’s, road crossing & nuclear weapons. I know one about a chicken crossing the road if you want to hear it.
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sprot:
The Ukrainian army having lost the Avidiivka pocket are now going to ‘Dig In’ and hold the Russians off! The Russians will consolidate their Positons and that will be the end, The Ukraine does not have the Military capacity or manpower to punch through Russias lines.
Sleepy Joe needs to wake up and tell Zehlinsky to make peace.
''Total bilateral aid commitments to Ukraine as a percentage of 2021 donor country gross domestic product (GDP) between January 24, 2022 and January 15, 2024, by country''
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1303450/bilateral-aid-to-ukraine-in-a-percent-of-donor-gdp/
That’s quite a chunk off NHS Funding amongst other things!
Sounds like you're getting ready to give it up sprot
Syd pray do tell us your solution to this war?
BST We are still awaiting your words of wisdom too?
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Nobody on here picked up on this little lot yet?
https://www.google.com/search?q=germany+leaked+documents&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:887b6cd3,vid:eAAkVlpSUXY,st:0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKP_1Xj24RQ
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/germany-military-leak-british-troops-russia-b2507093.html
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A Russian missile landed within 100 metres of President Zelenskyy & visiting Greek Prime Minister Mitsotakis & his diplomats today in the port of Odessa, five people (non of them Greek) were killed.
What would NATO’s response have been if a Prime Minister of one of its ‘most important’ nation states had been killed?
Putin will one day blow his own head off playing ‘Russian Roulette’.
Russia killed the Polish President a few yeas ago, in a “Plane Crash”
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A Russian missile landed within 100 metres of President Zelenskyy &amp; visiting Greek Prime Minister Mitsotakis &amp; his diplomats today in the port of Odessa, five people (non of them Greek) were killed.
What would NATO’s response have been if a Prime Minister of one of its ‘most important’ nation states had been killed?
Putin will one day blow his own head off playing ‘Russian Roulette’.
Russia killed the Polish President a few yeas ago, in a “Plane Crash”
Not pilot error then as he attempted to land the plane at Smolensk Airport in fog with visibility down to 1600 feet?
The plane came in too low, clipped the tops of trees & was spun round crashing 600 feet before the start of the runway, as reported by crash investigators.
I love a theory but, that was definitely a Russian missile fired into the Port of Odessa at a time when President Zelenskyy was meeting a delegation of Greek officials which included the Greek Prime Minister.
That was a close call….for Putin.
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The missile being spoke of was aimed at, and hit, a factory/storage unit for the sea drones. As they are UK coordinated, likely there would be some UK casualties there too.
If you walk across a busy road with a blindfold, you are asking for trouble. No nukes coming from that story.
The other side of the story is Russia being able to take out Zelensky but choosing not to. Why might that be?
It landed 100 metres from this group.
Obviously at that distance it was meant as a ‘frightener’, no more.
No UK casualties as ‘they’ surprise, surprise, were all in the UK.
Didn’t understand the bit about blindfold’s, road crossing & nuclear weapons. I know one about a chicken crossing the road if you want to hear it.
The missile was aimed at, and hit, the sea drones facility - at least according to the well known Krembot "The Times"
https://youtu.be/i1bUXOXV2P8?si=KF4iT1lv9guejCKF
Widely reported there were a few strikes, all 500 metres and more away. Where are you getting your info?
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I use many sources to gather the facts that I quote, from news gathering derivations as widespread & including Al Jazeera, Rossiyskaya Gazeta, UVB-76 (broadcasting on radio frequency 4625 kHz), The Voice of Jingjinji, The Argumenty i Fakly & The Bridlington Echo.
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The ships lost by Russia over recent months have been costly, tho much more expensive has been the ten or so air defense systems Ukraine has lost in the last few weeks, each Patriot over a billion, way over. Big problems ahead with hardly any air defence, and no replacements.
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The ships lost by Russia over recent months have been costly, tho much more expensive has been the ten or so air defense systems Ukraine has lost in the last few weeks, each Patriot over a billion, way over. Big problems ahead with hardly any air defence, and no replacements.
Since when did a Patriot missile cost£1biion?
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The ships lost by Russia over recent months have been costly, tho much more expensive has been the ten or so air defense systems Ukraine has lost in the last few weeks, each Patriot over a billion, way over. Big problems ahead with hardly any air defence, and no replacements.
Since when did a Patriot missile cost£1biion?
Missile system costs about 2.5billion to export. A missile, about 10 million. Check wiki, or ask Johnson, Sunak, or Biden. Not that any of them would know a bean from a sprout.
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The ships lost by Russia over recent months have been costly, tho much more expensive has been the ten or so air defense systems Ukraine has lost in the last few weeks, each Patriot over a billion, way over. Big problems ahead with hardly any air defence, and no replacements.
Since when did a Patriot missile cost£1biion?
Missile system costs about 2.5billion to export. A missile, about 10 million. Check wiki, or ask Johnson, Sunak, or Biden. Not that any of them would know a bean from a sprout.
So if they have been gifted, the Ukraine loses nothing the Yanks stump up $4 million per missile!
https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/uk-news/2024/03/03/russia-hamstrung-by-aircraft-losses-in-ukraine-offensive-push/
So they have lost 200 modern combat aircraft and have 700 left also 3 out of 9 A50 early warning aircraft, the Russians have not flown any of the remaining 6 in the last week.
I’d say the Yanks will be happy with that!
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The ships lost by Russia over recent months have been costly, tho much more expensive has been the ten or so air defense systems Ukraine has lost in the last few weeks, each Patriot over a billion, way over. Big problems ahead with hardly any air defence, and no replacements.
Since when did a Patriot missile cost£1biion?
Missile system costs about 2.5billion to export. A missile, about 10 million. Check wiki, or ask Johnson, Sunak, or Biden. Not that any of them would know a bean from a sprout.
So if they have been gifted, the Ukraine loses nothing the Yanks stump up $4 million per missile!
https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/uk-news/2024/03/03/russia-hamstrung-by-aircraft-losses-in-ukraine-offensive-push/
So they have lost 200 modern combat aircraft and have 700 left also 3 out of 9 A50 early warning aircraft, the Russians have not flown any of the remaining 6 in the last week.
I’d say the Yanks will be happy with that!
They might be if their math is as standout as yours.
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The ships lost by Russia over recent months have been costly, tho much more expensive has been the ten or so air defense systems Ukraine has lost in the last few weeks, each Patriot over a billion, way over. Big problems ahead with hardly any air defence, and no replacements.
Since when did a Patriot missile cost£1biion?
Missile system costs about 2.5billion to export. A missile, about 10 million. Check wiki, or ask Johnson, Sunak, or Biden. Not that any of them would know a bean from a sprout.
So if they have been gifted, the Ukraine loses nothing the Yanks stump up $4 million per missile!
https://www.thenationalnews.com/world/uk-news/2024/03/03/russia-hamstrung-by-aircraft-losses-in-ukraine-offensive-push/
So they have lost 200 modern combat aircraft and have 700 left also 3 out of 9 A50 early warning aircraft, the Russians have not flown any of the remaining 6 in the last week.
I’d say the Yanks will be happy with that!
They might be if their math is as standout as yours.
You said” each Patriot over a billion, way over. Big problems ahead with hardly any air ”
And then you have the temerity to criticise my math?
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How much do you see a Patriot system costing? How much per missile? And I'm not meaning one on the black market from a Ukraine "arms dealer".
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More info re a Trump ruled USA stopping funding the war, this time from the Hungarian PM Viktor Orban.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-68533351
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BRR, he hopefully will stop the war, but he will put restraints on Putin to do so. His ego will want it to be about him and America.
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A Russian missile landed within 100 metres of President Zelenskyy &amp;amp; visiting Greek Prime Minister Mitsotakis &amp;amp; his diplomats today in the port of Odessa, five people (non of them Greek) were killed.
What would NATO’s response have been if a Prime Minister of one of its ‘most important’ nation states had been killed?
Putin will one day blow his own head off playing ‘Russian Roulette’.
Russia killed the Polish President a few yeas ago, in a “Plane Crash”
Not pilot error then as he attempted to land the plane at Smolensk Airport in fog with visibility down to 1600 feet?
The plane came in too low, clipped the tops of trees & was spun round crashing 600 feet before the start of the runway, as reported by crash investigators.
I love a theory but, that was definitely a Russian missile fired into the Port of Odessa at a time when President Zelenskyy was meeting a delegation of Greek officials which included the Greek Prime Minister.
That was a close call….for Putin.
I work on ILS (instrument landing systems) Radar (secondary radar would give altitude to controllers) 1600ft is well within decision making limits on cat111 equipped airports and I assume that presidents don't fly into none cat111 aerodromes in that Vis ever?!
Pilot if still capable did not clip trees.
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This man is favourite to be Leader of the Free World next year.
https://twitter.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1769149501359394822
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This man is favourite to be Leader of the Free World next year.
https://twitter.com/RpsAgainstTrump/status/1769149501359394822
I see Zelensky's puppet is making an appearance on the Ukraine thread again.
Even more notable is the extreme irony of his post :suicide:
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Congratulations to Putin for winning a 5th term in power.
He is such a popular man with the populace of Russia.
Not many great political leaders can achieve that.
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Congratulations to Putin for winning a 5th term in power.
He is such a popular man with the populace of Russia.
Not many great political leaders can achieve that.
Franco and Castro had a go tho
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More cluster munitions fired into Belgorod by the Ukrainians today. Several civilians killed and many more injured some seriously. This on top of many many more over recent months. At least with the liberation of Avdeevka this is less likely to be happening in Donetsk than it has been over the past several years.
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Congratulations to Putin for winning a 5th term in power.
He is such a popular man with the populace of Russia.
Not many great political leaders can achieve that.
Ironic that in the Ukraine "democracy" Zelensky has been continually "postponing" elections.
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Congratulations to Putin for winning a 5th term in power.
He is such a popular man with the populace of Russia.
Not many great political leaders can achieve that.
Ironic that in the Ukraine "democracy" Zelensky has been continually "postponing" elections.
Ironic that you blame ot all on the west,NATO,etc
Why not throw it all in and blame it on Corbyn and Dianne Abbot? :)
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So what's the scenario? Putin wins and carries on with further land grabs; Putin loses and starts World War 3; the Russian people rise up against him and replace him with someone else.
The latter seems the most favourable one for the world, but seems highly unlikely, and could lead to someone more dangerous than Putin coming to the helm; there's plenty of them there.
Not looking good for anyone at the moment.
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SS
The trick is to put Putin in a box by making sure any other country he wants to think about invading has NATO behind it, so he has absolutely nothing to gain by invading. That requires us and other European countries to be prepared to put serious money into re-arming, and quickly.
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Ukraine will never recover any of its territory, this war will just go on until Western Countries stop funding Ukraine or their Army mutinies.
We launched the Somme offensive because the French army had 50 Divisions on the verge of Mutiny. How would you feel if after giving your all for 2 years at the Front you notice that there are no new recruits coming through as reinforcements!.
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Ukraine will never recover any of its territory, this war will just go on until Western Countries stop funding Ukraine or their Army mutinies.
We launched the Somme offensive because the French army had 50 Divisions on the verge of Mutiny. How would you feel if after giving your all for 2 years at the Front you notice that there are no new recruits coming through as reinforcements!.
sounds very trumpist, sprot
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SS
The trick is to put Putin in a box by making sure any other country he wants to think about invading has NATO behind it, so he has absolutely nothing to gain by invading. That requires us and other European countries to be prepared to put serious money into re-arming, and quickly.
Noooo the idea of Russian expansionism is just an evil western conspiracy psy-op and expanding NATO is just asking for WW3!! :silly:
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SS
The trick is to put Putin in a box by making sure any other country he wants to think about invading has NATO behind it, so he has absolutely nothing to gain by invading. That requires us and other European countries to be prepared to put serious money into re-arming, and quickly.
Sounds very blood thirsty.
The best solution would be to have a sit down with him, give him donbass and crimea. End the blood shed fast initially.
Then have constant and regular dialogue with him. Eventually bringing him into the fold.
Poking the bear has gotten us nowhere.
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SS
The trick is to put Putin in a box by making sure any other country he wants to think about invading has NATO behind it, so he has absolutely nothing to gain by invading. That requires us and other European countries to be prepared to put serious money into re-arming, and quickly.
Sounds very blood thirsty.
The best solution would be to have a sit down with him, give him donbass and crimea. End the blood shed fast initially.
Then have constant and regular dialogue with him. Eventually bringing him into the fold.
Poking the bear has gotten us nowhere.
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SS
The trick is to put Putin in a box by making sure any other country he wants to think about invading has NATO behind it, so he has absolutely nothing to gain by invading. That requires us and other European countries to be prepared to put serious money into re-arming, and quickly.
Sounds very blood thirsty.
The best solution would be to have a sit down with him, give him donbass and crimea. End the blood shed fast initially.
Then have constant and regular dialogue with him. Eventually bringing him into the fold.
Poking the bear has gotten us nowhere.
Yeah cos that worked really well with the Sudetenland didn't it?
Do you know anything at all about history?
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Congratulations to Putin for winning a 5th term in power.
He is such a popular man with the populace of Russia.
Not many great political leaders can achieve that.
Ironic that in the Ukraine "democracy" Zelensky has been continually "postponing" elections.
Ironic that you blame ot all on the west,NATO,etc
Why not throw it all in and blame it on Corbyn and Dianne Abbot? :)
How many elections did we have between 1939 and 1945? With not so much as a single enemy boot on our territory.
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SS
The trick is to put Putin in a box by making sure any other country he wants to think about invading has NATO behind it, so he has absolutely nothing to gain by invading. That requires us and other European countries to be prepared to put serious money into re-arming, and quickly.
Sounds very blood thirsty.
The best solution would be to have a sit down with him, give him donbass and crimea. End the blood shed fast initially.
Then have constant and regular dialogue with him. Eventually bringing him into the fold.
Poking the bear has gotten us nowhere.
Yeah cos that worked really well with the Sudetenland didn't it?
Do you know anything at all about history?
Probably more than you. This situation is nothing like nazi Germany, at all.
What's the definition of insanity? Einstein said it was doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome.
Poking the Russian bear clearly isn't working, unless of course you WANT a war, and WANT to continue feeding the military industrial complex, as many politicians do.
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SS
The trick is to put Putin in a box by making sure any other country he wants to think about invading has NATO behind it, so he has absolutely nothing to gain by invading. That requires us and other European countries to be prepared to put serious money into re-arming, and quickly.
Sounds very blood thirsty.
The best solution would be to have a sit down with him, give him donbass and crimea. End the blood shed fast initially.
Then have constant and regular dialogue with him. Eventually bringing him into the fold.
Poking the bear has gotten us nowhere.
<pic of people holding placards>
Confused are you, NC? It's not the same situation. NATO has been expanding for one. Where is that parallel?
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Congratulations to Putin for winning a 5th term in power.
He is such a popular man with the populace of Russia.
Not many great political leaders can achieve that.
Ironic that in the Ukraine &quot;democracy&quot; Zelensky has been continually &quot;postponing&quot; elections.
Ironic that you blame ot all on the west,NATO,etc
Why not throw it all in and blame it on Corbyn and Dianne Abbot? :)
How many elections did we have between 1939 and 1945? With not so much as a single enemy boot on our territory.
BST's WW2 movie seems to be on loop again.
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WW2 is not a bad comparison if you look at the bit where the US bailed us out with anything and everything.
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WW2 is not a bad comparison if you look at the bit where the US bailed us out with anything and everything.
The US did have boots on the ground in WW2, which they haven't officially here. Also Russia was taking most of the flak, where here it's Ukraine.
The similarities are wildly tenuous.
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WW2 is not a bad comparison if you look at the bit where the US bailed us out with anything and everything.
If Trump wins in November, and it is still possible, there'll be no bailing out by the US in Ukraine.
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An interesting article on strengthening bonds ...............
''Could Poland’s promotion to Europe’s top table be a turning point for Ukraine?''
''Poland’s longstanding struggle for a bigger say in European leadership may finally be gaining ground with the revival of the long dormant Weimar Triangle – a diplomatic compact bringing Warsaw together with Germany and France in a regular dialogue on EU affairs.
When the Polish prime minister, Donald Tusk, joined the German chancellor, Olaf Scholz, and the French president, Emmanuel Macron, for a show of unity in Berlin last Friday, they breathed new political life into a format that has the unfulfilled potential to unite northern, southern and central Europe around a common agenda – especially in support of Ukraine'' ...................... cont
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/20/poland-europe-top-table-ukraine-weimar-triangle-france-germany
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An interesting article on strengthening bonds ...............
''Could Poland’s promotion to Europe’s top table be a turning point for Ukraine?''
''Poland’s longstanding struggle for a bigger say in European leadership may finally be gaining ground with the revival of the long dormant Weimar Triangle – a diplomatic compact bringing Warsaw together with Germany and France in a regular dialogue on EU affairs.
When the Polish prime minister, Donald Tusk, joined the German chancellor, Olaf Scholz, and the French president, Emmanuel Macron, for a show of unity in Berlin last Friday, they breathed new political life into a format that has the unfulfilled potential to unite northern, southern and central Europe around a common agenda – especially in support of Ukraine'' ...................... cont
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/mar/20/poland-europe-top-table-ukraine-weimar-triangle-france-germany
https://uk.images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrFE4rI4vpld48R8gzw3olQ;_ylu=c2VjA3NyBHNsawNpbWcEb2lkA2NiNzY5YWQyMmM2Nzk1YWVmNDU2NzE1ZjdkNWE3N2MzBGdwb3MDNDAEaXQDYmluZw--?back=https%3A%2F%2Fuk.images.search.yahoo.com%2Fsearch%2Fimages%3Fp%3DPoland%2B1939%26fr%3Diphone%26fr2%3Dpiv-web%26_tsrc%3Dapple%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D40&w=1142&h=1200&imgurl=pbs.twimg.com%2Fmedia%2FDnCnLpYWwAE_wIw.jpg&rurl=https%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2FJakubKumoch%2Fstatus%2F1040516680441647105&size=410.5KB&p=Poland+1939&oid=cb769ad22c6795aef456715f7d5a77c3&fr2=piv-web&fr=iphone&tt=Jakub+Kumoch+on+Twitter%3A+%26quot%3BSoviet&b=0&ni=21&no=40&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=P1.4gMj8zMYH&sigb=o3DGXEmDwZRA&sigi=Lg96xIUeftNE&sigt=wxXaycqyCL5l&.crumb=gaA/4rqplKU&fr=iphone&fr2=piv-web
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Significant French troops reported in Odessa. Seem to have been there a while but recently increased. Some of them having been targeted by recent Russian strikes. Unclear what they are being used for - possibly the upcoming Ukraine attempt to move into south Kherson/Crimea?
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https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2024/03/19/russian-spy-chief-claims-france-planning-to-send-2k-soldiers-to-ukraine-a84537
Just noticed this re BRR’s on French Troops, 2,000 would ne a reinforced Battle Group!
Ukraine lost more territory yesterday , I wonder if this indicates that there is an impending Collapse, of Ukrainian resistance in the South and the French
Have been deployed to protect Odessa from falling to the Russians in the very near future?
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The French troops will be in Moldova. Whose border is very very close to Odessa. Moldova have this month signed some form of defence treaty with France.
I’d be surprised if French troops step foot in Odessa. That would be stepping over a big red line.
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The French troops will be in Moldova. Whose border is very very close to Odessa. Moldova have this month signed some form of defence treaty with France.
I’d be surprised if French troops step foot in Odessa. That would be stepping over a big red line.
But Russian troops setting foot in Mariupol, Kherson and other places isn't?
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The French troops will be in Moldova. Whose border is very very close to Odessa. Moldova have this month signed some form of defence treaty with France.
I’d be surprised if French troops step foot in Odessa. That would be stepping over a big red line.
But Russian troops setting foot in Mariupol, Kherson and other places isn't?
They stepped over that when they attacked Hostomel Airport on Day 1
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News today showing Ukraine is busy digging a new defensive line from the Polish border to the Black Sea, what does that tell you?
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They've imported some Irish navvies?
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The French troops will be in Moldova. Whose border is very very close to Odessa. Moldova have this month signed some form of defence treaty with France.
I’d be surprised if French troops step foot in Odessa. That would be stepping over a big red line.
Interesting to see what happens with Transnistria now. A potential extra flash point for escalation.
There have been French troops in Ukraine already mostly acting as "advisors" and operating systems. Upcoming elections and Macrons dire ratings will be partly behind this - pulling on the nationalist heart strings. I wonder if Sunak thinks it's worth a shot?
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What nonsense!
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Did anyone one watch the BBC 2 Documentary last night 25/03/2024 9pm!
From what I saw , the Ukrainian army is f*cked, it follows a company defending a Railway line through a Forest which the Russians are desperate to capture.
This unit was deployed for a period of time 7 weeks, in which they lost 10 dead and 66 seriously wounded from a total of 99.
They are basically staffing 2 forward OP’s with 10 men in the OP’s at a time to get to the OP’s they have to run the gauntlet on a route several hundred yards long to get to the Bunkers and shelter, The Russians constantly send troops to try and take the OP’S you get the impression that it’s is in front of a very fluid front line, the troops constantly moaning about no replacements.
I’m surprised that the Ukrainian Government allowed them to film.
It just shows how dire things are!
Not for the faint hearted as you see troops getting killed and wounded.
Reminds me of the German bunker in Cross of Iron but far worse!
https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2024/mar/25/ukraine-enemy-in-the-woods-review-bbc
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Yes I did.
The real life horrors of war.
It was a hard watch.
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I watched it, and got the impression far more Russians were killed than Ukrainian, but it makes you think how lucky we are to live in the UK and on an island with Nukes as a deterrent
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I watched it, and got the impression far more Russians were killed than Ukrainian, but it makes you think how lucky we are to live in the UK and on an island with Nukes as a deterrent
75% Casualties in 7 weeks isn’t good going, they are losing an entire generation, plus the ones left will have PTSD. No ammo, didn’t see any medium machine guns, and they making bombs by dismantling Artillery shells. Plus 100 Artillery shells is one days ammo for one artillery Gun!
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Mobilisation in Ukraine is being changed in the coming days. Was going to be dropped from 27 years to 25 but reports of that being dropped to 18 - which makes sense from the perspective of needing troops to try to stem the retreats, as well as the US "encouraging" it.
Along with this, demobilisation happening for people who have served for a long period with a mobilisatoin exemption for 12 months.
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Belarusian President Lukashenko has been discussing a possible attack on the Suwałki Gap.
"They shouldn’t be behaving like this. But now you will have to confront the Baltic republics... And you will take part of Poland," Lukashenko says upon learning the width of the Gap (42 km as the crow flies).
Lukashenko then asks the military commander whether he can hold the territory with "his troops". Naumenko assures him that "all actions have been planned, issues of combat readiness are being worked out, and personnel are being trained".
The Suwałki Gap – a land corridor between Belarus and the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad – is considered a very likely place of attack in the event of a potential Russian war against NATO’s eastern members.
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/03/26/7448273/index.amp
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Belarusian President Lukashenko has been discussing a possible attack on the Suwałki Gap.
"They shouldn’t be behaving like this. But now you will have to confront the Baltic republics... And you will take part of Poland," Lukashenko says upon learning the width of the Gap (42 km as the crow flies).
Lukashenko then asks the military commander whether he can hold the territory with "his troops". Naumenko assures him that "all actions have been planned, issues of combat readiness are being worked out, and personnel are being trained".
The Suwałki Gap – a land corridor between Belarus and the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad – is considered a very likely place of attack in the event of a potential Russian war against NATO’s eastern members.
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/03/26/7448273/index.amp
Got any other links that aren't Ukraine?
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Does anyone think ukraine can win this war ? What would winning look like, and how would they do it?
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Belarusian President Lukashenko has been discussing a possible attack on the Suwałki Gap.
"They shouldn’t be behaving like this. But now you will have to confront the Baltic republics... And you will take part of Poland," Lukashenko says upon learning the width of the Gap (42 km as the crow flies).
Lukashenko then asks the military commander whether he can hold the territory with "his troops". Naumenko assures him that "all actions have been planned, issues of combat readiness are being worked out, and personnel are being trained".
The Suwałki Gap – a land corridor between Belarus and the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad – is considered a very likely place of attack in the event of a potential Russian war against NATO’s eastern members.
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/03/26/7448273/index.amp
Got any other links that aren't Ukraine?
It's not really a case of winning is it,more a case of defending it's territory from a racist dictator and his little military operation.
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Can they push russia out of their territory?
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Without a significant change in aid, eg more munitions than the west can produce, more hardware, better hardware, and more bodies, then there is only one way this war is going. The longer a peace deal is delayed, the more territory Ukraine will cede, and the worst the terms will be for them.
Quite likely that in a month or two Russia will be increasing its manpower on the front line, will be taking one or all of Zaporozhia, Kharkiv, Odessa and Kyiv.
Id be interested to hear what scenarios others can see and how they will be funded.
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You're not toeing the official line here BRR,it's not a war ìts a special military operation against Nazis
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Interesting to see Russia now using assault robots on the front line. Being used for such purposes as clearing trenches. No doubt Ukraine, as its receiving high tech NATO kit superior to Russia according to the in the know reporters on Viking Chat, is using the US/UK version, tbough there's no reports or evidence of that, yet.
Some details here, and a pic showing what is said to be a victory for the humanoids.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2024/03/29/russias-first-ever-robotic-ground-assault-ended-badly--for-the-robots/
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Belarusian President Lukashenko has been discussing a possible attack on the Suwałki Gap.
"They shouldn’t be behaving like this. But now you will have to confront the Baltic republics... And you will take part of Poland," Lukashenko says upon learning the width of the Gap (42 km as the crow flies).
Lukashenko then asks the military commander whether he can hold the territory with "his troops". Naumenko assures him that "all actions have been planned, issues of combat readiness are being worked out, and personnel are being trained".
The Suwałki Gap – a land corridor between Belarus and the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad – is considered a very likely place of attack in the event of a potential Russian war against NATO’s eastern members.
https://www.pravda.com.ua/eng/news/2024/03/26/7448273/index.amp
Got any other links that aren't Ukraine?
What does he say in the video then?
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Lukashenko would almost certainly need Russia's permission for such a move to take place. Could be he's just verbally reacting to the NATO exercises on his border? Not good though. It does seem he is someone who is basically a figurehead for the Belarussian gangsters, a bit of a wild cannon in some things he says, but fairly easy to control when push comes to shove.
His mentioning of Belarus as the destiny for the Crokus gunmen for instance doesn't seem to be based on an overall grasp of the picture. Yes, Belarus had blocked off the root into Belarus, but the gunmen would be unlikely to have known, and anyway the root to Bryansk is not the direct root to Belarus (that was the a-130 via Roslavl), it is to Ukraine.
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He's definitely a wild cannon,but history has shown us dictators like to stick together.
AD,Mussoloni and Franco being perfect examples.
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He's definitely a wild cannon,but history has shown us dictators like to stick together.
AD,Mussoloni and Franco being perfect examples.
Not sure what point you're making?
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US troops in Moldova on the back of millions of dollars of "aid". I suspect Romanian too as part of a ploy to annex Moldova. Western "democracy" in action there?
https://asiatimes.com/2024/04/us-troops-in-moldova-in-emerging-plan-b-for-ukraine/
Meanwhile western democracy being criticised by Western media - Russian sympathetic President elected in Slovakia, backing up the previous Russian sympathetic PM. More trouble for EU Ukraine aid.
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US troops in Moldova on the back of millions of dollars of "aid". I suspect Romanian too as part of a ploy to annex Moldova. Western "democracy" in action there?
https://asiatimes.com/2024/04/us-troops-in-moldova-in-emerging-plan-b-for-ukraine/
Meanwhile western democracy being criticised by Western media - Russian sympathetic President elected in Slovakia, backing up the previous Russian sympathetic PM. More trouble for EU Ukraine aid.
Again, just nonsense dreamt up by you. The article doesn't go anywhere near claiming what you claim.
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Now a video emerges of several Ukranian POWs being executed, whatever next....... oh I know "but have you seen what THEY do to Russian POWs"
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Now a video emerges of several Ukranian POWs being executed, whatever next....... oh I know "but have you seen what THEY do to Russian POWs"
Ask yourself what is the overall picture? Why are you so ready to celebrate the propaganda like this?
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US troops in Moldova on the back of millions of dollars of &quot;aid&quot;. I suspect Romanian too as part of a ploy to annex Moldova. Western &quot;democracy&quot; in action there?
https://asiatimes.com/2024/04/us-troops-in-moldova-in-emerging-plan-b-for-ukraine/
Meanwhile western democracy being criticised by Western media - Russian sympathetic President elected in Slovakia, backing up the previous Russian sympathetic PM. More trouble for EU Ukraine aid.
Again, just nonsense dreamt up by you. The article doesn't go anywhere near claiming what you claim.
Meh, more guff from you. Be specific.
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Now a video emerges of several Ukranian POWs being executed, whatever next....... oh I know &quot;but have you seen what THEY do to Russian POWs&quot;
Ask yourself what is the overall picture? Why are you so ready to celebrate the propaganda like this?
No celebration for murder
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Now a video emerges of several Ukranian POWs being executed, whatever next....... oh I know &amp;quot;but have you seen what THEY do to Russian POWs&amp;quot;
Ask yourself what is the overall picture? Why are you so ready to celebrate the propaganda like this?
No celebration for murder
I'll give you a second chance. I meant the propaganda angle. There are attrocities on both sides. You choose to highlight this one. Is that due to you not seeing a balanced take on murder etc? Or is it a choice you are making?
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No just waiting for your anticipated response, always interesting to see the.opposite view
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Now a video emerges of several Ukranian POWs being executed, whatever next....... oh I know &amp;quot;but have you seen what THEY do to Russian POWs&amp;quot;
Ask yourself what is the overall picture? Why are you so ready to celebrate the propaganda like this?
No celebration for murder
I'll give you a second chance. I meant the propaganda angle. There are attrocities on both sides. You choose to highlight this one. Is that due to you not seeing a balanced take on murder etc? Or is it a choice you are making?
This is a pointless debate to have with you because you think the intentions of Russia are equivalent to Ukraine’s.
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Now a video emerges of several Ukranian POWs being executed, whatever next....... oh I know &amp;amp;quot;but have you seen what THEY do to Russian POWs&amp;amp;quot;
Ask yourself what is the overall picture? Why are you so ready to celebrate the propaganda like this?
No celebration for murder
I'll give you a second chance. I meant the propaganda angle. There are attrocities on both sides. You choose to highlight this one. Is that due to you not seeing a balanced take on murder etc? Or is it a choice you are making?
This is a pointless debate to have with you because you think the intentions of Russia are equivalent to Ukraine’s.
Thats a simplistic assumption. First, Ukraine barely comes into it. It's the US and NATO v Russia. Proxy war, well established, at least outside of the US NATO propaganda machines that dictate msm.
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And Nc, either engage with what I asked, or go sit on some other sideline.
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Now a video emerges of several Ukranian POWs being executed, whatever next....... oh I know &amp;amp;quot;but have you seen what THEY do to Russian POWs&amp;amp;quot;
Ask yourself what is the overall picture? Why are you so ready to celebrate the propaganda like this?
No celebration for murder
I'll give you a second chance. I meant the propaganda angle. There are attrocities on both sides. You choose to highlight this one. Is that due to you not seeing a balanced take on murder etc? Or is it a choice you are making?
This is a pointless debate to have with you because you think the intentions of Russia are equivalent to Ukraine’s.
Thats a simplistic assumption. First, Ukraine barely comes into it. It's the US and NATO v Russia. Proxy war, well established, at least outside of the US NATO propaganda machines that dictate msm.
Ukraine, a country that has been invaded "barely comes into it"?
There's no hope for you,you've been totally brainwashed.
Probably didn't take long.
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Now a video emerges of several Ukranian POWs being executed, whatever next....... oh I know &amp;amp;amp;quot;but have you seen what THEY do to Russian POWs&amp;amp;amp;quot;
Ask yourself what is the overall picture? Why are you so ready to celebrate the propaganda like this?
No celebration for murder
I'll give you a second chance. I meant the propaganda angle. There are attrocities on both sides. You choose to highlight this one. Is that due to you not seeing a balanced take on murder etc? Or is it a choice you are making?
This is a pointless debate to have with you because you think the intentions of Russia are equivalent to Ukraine’s.
Thats a simplistic assumption. First, Ukraine barely comes into it. It's the US and NATO v Russia. Proxy war, well established, at least outside of the US NATO propaganda machines that dictate msm.
Ukraine, a country that has been invaded "barely comes into it"?
There's no hope for you,you've been totally brainwashed.
Probably didn't take long.
It's a viewpoint that I used to see a lot in far left politics.
You start with the article of faith. The West is bad.
You base everything on that principle, and you therefore have to see everything through a lens that says the West is to blame for everything bad that happens.
These people used to be called "Tankies" because when the Soviets invaded Hungary in 1956, killing maybe 3000 civilians, they argued vociferously that it was the West that was to blame for soviet tanks firing on demonstrators.
BRR is just another of the apologists for the shit that has come out of Moscow for generations.
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Now a video emerges of several Ukranian POWs being executed, whatever next....... oh I know &amp;amp;amp;quot;but have you seen what THEY do to Russian POWs&amp;amp;amp;quot;
Ask yourself what is the overall picture? Why are you so ready to celebrate the propaganda like this?
No celebration for murder
I'll give you a second chance. I meant the propaganda angle. There are attrocities on both sides. You choose to highlight this one. Is that due to you not seeing a balanced take on murder etc? Or is it a choice you are making?
This is a pointless debate to have with you because you think the intentions of Russia are equivalent to Ukraine’s.
Thats a simplistic assumption. First, Ukraine barely comes into it. It's the US and NATO v Russia. Proxy war, well established, at least outside of the US NATO propaganda machines that dictate msm.
Ukraine, a country that has been invaded "barely comes into it"?
There's no hope for you,you've been totally brainwashed.
Probably didn't take long.
You said intentions. Think it through.
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Now a video emerges of several Ukranian POWs being executed, whatever next....... oh I know &amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;but have you seen what THEY do to Russian POWs&amp;amp;amp;amp;quot;
Ask yourself what is the overall picture? Why are you so ready to celebrate the propaganda like this?
No celebration for murder
I'll give you a second chance. I meant the propaganda angle. There are attrocities on both sides. You choose to highlight this one. Is that due to you not seeing a balanced take on murder etc? Or is it a choice you are making?
This is a pointless debate to have with you because you think the intentions of Russia are equivalent to Ukraine’s.
Thats a simplistic assumption. First, Ukraine barely comes into it. It's the US and NATO v Russia. Proxy war, well established, at least outside of the US NATO propaganda machines that dictate msm.
Ukraine, a country that has been invaded &quot;barely comes into it&quot;?
There's no hope for you,you've been totally brainwashed.
Probably didn't take long.
It's a viewpoint that I used to see a lot in far left politics.
You start with the article of faith. The West is bad.
You base everything on that principle, and you therefore have to see everything through a lens that says the West is to blame for everything bad that happens.
These people used to be called "Tankies" because when the Soviets invaded Hungary in 1956, killing maybe 3000 civilians, they argued vociferously that it was the West that was to blame for soviet tanks firing on demonstrators.
BRR is just another of the apologists for the shit that has come out of Moscow for generations.
What a load of old shite. BST loves to build a story of what someone is saying, and judges them on his story, not what they're saying. Messed up.
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Now a video emerges of several Ukranian POWs being executed, whatever next....... oh I know &amp;amp;quot;but have you seen what THEY do to Russian POWs&amp;amp;quot;
Ask yourself what is the overall picture? Why are you so ready to celebrate the propaganda like this?
No celebration for murder
I'll give you a second chance. I meant the propaganda angle. There are attrocities on both sides. You choose to highlight this one. Is that due to you not seeing a balanced take on murder etc? Or is it a choice you are making?
This is a pointless debate to have with you because you think the intentions of Russia are equivalent to Ukraine’s.
Thats a simplistic assumption. First, Ukraine barely comes into it. It's the US and NATO v Russia. Proxy war, well established, at least outside of the US NATO propaganda machines that dictate msm.
Have you ever considered what the world would look like without the US and the West in charge ?
Presumably your not one of these easily offended lefties who seek the perfect world when reality tells the grown ups it's an imperfect world .
Presumably your not naive to think that the world would spin with nobody as top dog and everything would be perfectly fine .
Well thank feck the US and the West call the shots because seen as the reality is that somebody will always be top dog the alternatives to top dog status don't look that great .
Imagine the Russians in charge of the world , is there any economic system that they've tried that they haven't completely fecked up ? .
What about those lovely Chinese , fancy that lot running the show , how would you like the Chinese Communist Party controlling your entire life from the cradle to the grave ?
I know let's have an Islamic collective under sharia law to negotiate and have to worship and sacrifice our whole lives to some prophet .
No thanks , I'll take the ass holes US and the West thanks very much for all their many flaws .
I'll leave you with this one , consider yourself one lucky person with the US and the West running the show in your lifetime .
The complete shyte you post on here would have you doing 30 years in Russia and you'd be minus your head in many Islamic states .
You'd better hope it stays this way .
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Now a video emerges of several Ukranian POWs being executed, whatever next....... oh I know &amp;amp;amp;quot;but have you seen what THEY do to Russian POWs&amp;amp;amp;quot;
Ask yourself what is the overall picture? Why are you so ready to celebrate the propaganda like this?
No celebration for murder
I'll give you a second chance. I meant the propaganda angle. There are attrocities on both sides. You choose to highlight this one. Is that due to you not seeing a balanced take on murder etc? Or is it a choice you are making?
This is a pointless debate to have with you because you think the intentions of Russia are equivalent to Ukraine’s.
Thats a simplistic assumption. First, Ukraine barely comes into it. It's the US and NATO v Russia. Proxy war, well established, at least outside of the US NATO propaganda machines that dictate msm.
Ukraine, a country that has been invaded "barely comes into it"?
There's no hope for you,you've been totally brainwashed.
Probably didn't take long.
You said intentions. Think it through.
Think what through exactly?
You don't have talk absolute bollox.
At least we know now the concert attack was carried out by the Ukraine and the west.
The Kremlin said son. It's a fact.
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Tyke, ignoring the fear you have which appears to push you to being abusive in your conversation, it's worth being aware of a few things.
The US is not top dog in the world, but maybe in your world. Those worlds are two separate entities.
You appear happy to kiss the feet of what you appear to perceive as the kinder bully. This is similar to a villager kissing the feet and serving one mafia boss who you believe is protecting you from the nastier one in the next village. Bullies eh?
The US is interfering with a lot of nations, has directly caused lots of harm. I've no doubt Russia could be just as destructive, China too, and the UK of course has a distinguished history of that. Different styles of murder and abuse perhaps? Your problem of perception is that you seem to believe the US is behaving in your preferred way. Personally, I don't give respect to any bully small or large.
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Russia?
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Stop Bullying then BRR
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Isle of Wight.
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Or Isle of Wighter than Wight
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Coincidence?
https://mil.in.ua/en/news/an-explosion-recorded-at-an-ammunition-factory-in-the-uk/
https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Fire-reported-at-Scranton-Army-Ammunition-Plant-the-primary-producer-of-155mm-artillery-shells/5-2719642/
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Earlier we had Russians attacking with shovels, and now this, defending with a sack of potatoes!
https://rumble.com/v4rw3fr-russian-soldier-mashes-ukrainian-drone-with...-sack-of-potatoes.html