Viking Supporters Co-operative

Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: tyke1962 on January 24, 2022, 06:56:22 pm

Title: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 24, 2022, 06:56:22 pm
Up to 30 people were at his birthday party during the first lockdown in June it's just emerged .

Rules at the time forbid all social gatherings indoors at that time .

Bye bye Bunter .
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on January 24, 2022, 07:06:42 pm
What's the betting Cummings has just told Gray about it this afternoon, before Boris can get his lies in first?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: mushRTID on January 24, 2022, 07:07:42 pm
It’s absolutely disgraceful all this coming out and even for him, quite unbelievable.
That first lockdown, when all this was still fairly new to us was absolute hell.

I don’t know how this c**t can look himself in the mirror. Just go you piece of shit.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on January 24, 2022, 07:20:53 pm
It was a surprise, no one told him it was his birthday, he thought it was a working birthday
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on January 24, 2022, 07:23:03 pm
What amazes me is that Johnson must have known what Cummings had on him. It also became clear early on that Cummings was drip, drip, dripping out very strategically. I don’t know details of this latest accusation, but if true, Johnson must have known it would come out. We don’t even know if this is the worst of it. He could have gone a while ago with a scrap of dignity, yet he still refuses to do so.
Does he know something the rest of the country doesn’t?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on January 24, 2022, 07:31:43 pm
Cummings has told Sue Gray he will only respond to her questions in writing, so that the PM can’t twist his words
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: bpoolrover on January 24, 2022, 07:32:11 pm
Has to resign simple as that
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on January 24, 2022, 07:37:57 pm
Has to resign simple as that

 :that:
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Donnywolf on January 24, 2022, 07:41:47 pm

Agree ... Good post and in fact I would change just one letter of it
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on January 24, 2022, 07:41:53 pm
Sky News saying there was two birthday events on that day.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 24, 2022, 07:44:24 pm
I'm astonished anyone is shocked or surprised by any of this.

It's just what Johnson is. What he's always been. He's not that buffoonish likeable chap off HIGNFY.

He's an arrogant, narcissistic, lying, entitled, selfish Kitson.

He always has been and always will be. Anyone who ever spent 10 minutes looking into his past could have told you that. And it was inevitable that it would catch up on him. Especially when he threw his lot in with a truly nasty, vengeful bas**rd like Cummings.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: bpoolrover on January 24, 2022, 07:51:26 pm
I'm astonished anyone is shocked or surprised by any of this.

It's just what Johnson is. What he's always been. He's not that buffoonish likeable chap off HIGNFY.

He's an arrogant, narcissistic, lying, entitled, selfish Kitson.

He always has been and always will be. Anyone who ever spent 10 minutes looking into his past could have told you that. And it was inevitable that it would catch up on him. Especially when he threw his lot in with a truly nasty, vengeful bas**rd like Cummings.
i take it you don't like them 2 bst
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 24, 2022, 07:52:34 pm
I'm astonished anyone is shocked or surprised by any of this.

It's just what Johnson is. What he's always been. He's not that buffoonish likeable chap off HIGNFY.

He's an arrogant, narcissistic, lying, entitled, selfish Kitson.

He always has been and always will be. Anyone who ever spent 10 minutes looking into his past could have told you that. And it was inevitable that it would catch up on him. Especially when he threw his lot in with a truly nasty, vengeful bas**rd like Cummings.
i take it you don't like them 2 bst

Damn! Rumbled! I thought I'd got it past you.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 24, 2022, 07:54:18 pm
Just a thought. Did they ever actually do any work in Downing Street? It soundsike they hosted more parties than Rotters.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 24, 2022, 08:01:32 pm
Taxi for Bojo
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on January 24, 2022, 08:15:03 pm
Do as we say, not as we do
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 24, 2022, 08:27:24 pm
Police should escort him from the premises in front of the press (as Sonia Khan last year) directly following the Grey report.

''Special adviser sacked by Dominic Cummings to receive payoff

A special adviser who was escorted out of Downing Street by police on the orders of Dominic Cummings has been given a five-figure payoff by the government''

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/nov/13/special-adviser-sacked-by-dominic-cummings-to-receive-payoff
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on January 24, 2022, 08:33:36 pm
We do what were told, told to do
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 24, 2022, 08:46:56 pm
Downing st said he only broke the law for 10 minutes.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: MachoMadness on January 24, 2022, 08:56:30 pm
Can't believe this. It's a national disgrace, Corbyn must go.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on January 24, 2022, 08:56:52 pm
Downing st said he only broke the law for 10 minutes.

A bit different to Boris's first lie - 'there were no parties', or his second 'I wasn't aware of any parties', or his third 'I thought it was a work event', ain't it?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Donnywolf on January 24, 2022, 09:12:57 pm
Cummings has told Sue Gray he will only respond to her questions in writing, so that the PM can’t twist his words

True ....  Cummings has told Gray that him and others will reply to questions in print only because he doesn't want Pinocchio getting at written evidence photographs etc and being able to ,"bury the evidence"

Then the inspired bit .... the danger there though (said Mr Cummings
) is it is highly likely these documents photos recordings etc will continue to be drip leaked to Media people

Unlucky Johnson he's got plenty more it seems
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on January 24, 2022, 09:47:40 pm
Just seen this. Sickening and disgusting but no longer surprising. Think of all those people unable to visit and say goodbye to dying loved ones whilst those that impose those rules were having large scale Birthday parties.

Surely, surely Johnson is toast now.

But what about the bigger picture? Those other 29 people at this event and countless others seemingly partying in Downing Street whilst we were all trapped at home. Whether Tories or Civil Servants. Why did nobody whistleblow at the time?; Why were so many involved?; Why did noone complain and if they did what happened to them and their complaint?

Regardless of Johnson's character it seems inconceivable this went on unreported.

It simply smacks of elitists thinking they're above the common herd - us plebs. And it's widespread not just Johnson.

God help us if a more deadly strain of Covid or a more deadly pathogen emerges in the near future. There were enough people ignoring the first lockdown - now this has come to light far more will be ignoring any future lockdown or restrictions. That could be the most serious cost of Johnson (and others) behaviour here.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Dr Fundlekrotch on January 24, 2022, 11:22:39 pm


He's an arrogant, narcissistic, lying, entitled, selfish Kitson.

He always has been and always will be.

The husband of a colleague of mine used almost those exact words, and he shared a landing with Johnson at University
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 25, 2022, 01:21:53 am
Why would you vote a psychopath to office, I mean you'd really have to have a total disregard for your fellow man to do that to them and your country.

Psychopathy is characterized by diagnostic features such as superficial charm, high intelligence, poor judgment and failure to learn from experience, pathological egocentricity and incapacity for love, lack of remorse or shame, impulsivity, grandiose sense of self-worth, pathological lying, manipulative behavior, poor self-control, promiscuous sexual behavior, juvenile delinquency, and criminal versatility, among others.1,2 As a consequence of these criteria, the image of the psychopath is that of a cold, heartless, inhuman being. But do all psychopaths show a complete lack of normal emotional capacities and empathy?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Colemans Left Hook on January 25, 2022, 02:10:30 am
Sky News saying there was two birthday events on that day.

Do we really need to know about his "below the belt " birthday activities ..... Apart from the "naked truth"

Had been meaning to refresh your memories about his cunning leadership plan
And the vote "lending senario".

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on January 25, 2022, 07:06:46 am
Andrew Bridgen: “Nobody fits the description like Boris Johnson of ‘party leader’.”

Funny.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: rich1471 on January 25, 2022, 10:48:11 am
The met police are going to investigate the parties held at number 10 over the last 2 years this has to be the final nail in his coffin
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Not Now Kato on January 25, 2022, 10:53:54 am
The met police are going to investigate the parties held at number 10 over the last 2 years this has to be the final nail in his coffin

Not too sure about that.  Watch out for PMQ's tomorrow - 'Sue Grays report publication will have to wait until the result of the police enquiry'!
 
IMO 'Dame Dick' knows exactly what she's doing - protect Big Dog!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: DonnyOsmond on January 25, 2022, 11:12:04 am
Thoughts and prayers with BB x
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 25, 2022, 11:13:17 am
I would think as the met want to be as far away as possible from this that Grey approached them kato, but yes #10 will want to wait as long as possible to do anything.

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 25, 2022, 11:24:44 am
The met police are going to investigate the parties held at number 10 over the last 2 years this has to be the final nail in his coffin

Not too sure about that.  Watch out for PMQ's tomorrow - 'Sue Grays report publication will have to wait until the result of the police enquiry'!
 
IMO 'Dame Dick' knows exactly what she's doing - protect Big Dog!

This is corruption beyond belief.

The Met have categorically said all the way through this that their policy is not to investigate retrospective COVID breaches.

The Gray Report is just about to be released, and would almost certainly mean the end of Johnson's career.

Suddenly the Met are investigating and as a result, the Gray Report has been shelved.

Which means Johnson's safe for the meantime. He's kicked the can down the road and will hope that something else comes up to save him.

At what point do we wake up and realise what this Kitson and his entourage are doing to our democracy?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 25, 2022, 11:40:55 am
I knew Johnson was in big trouble when I saw who they were reduced to wheeling out into the media this morning to defend him.

You can imagine the scene at Conservative Central Office Media Dept as they try to figure out who to put out.

A: What about Sunak?

B: You for real? He's rehearsing his leadership speech.

A: Truss?

B: Have you HEARD her speak in public. Google Truss + Cheese.

A: Raab?

B: Nope, we programmed him to go out over the weekend and lie repeatedly about us having the fastest growth in the G7 and rising wages. He's in for a complete data wipe and reboot.

A: Gove?

B: Gove? Yeah, we DID have a Gove once. Haven't seen him for months.

A: Jenrick? He's always up for debasing himself in support of a lost cause.

B: Good id...hold on. We sacked him last year.

A: So that just leaves...

B: No! Good GOD no!

A: No option. I'll go and get f**king Shapps.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: mugnapper on January 25, 2022, 12:45:31 pm
At least it'll be a change of answer at PMQ's tomorrow. Instead of 'We must wait the outcome of Sue Gray's report'  to every question, we will have 'We must await the outcome of the Metropolitan Police inquiry'.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 25, 2022, 12:50:28 pm
Well hands up from me.

I said a week or so ago that it wasn't the parties that would finish him off. It was the lying about the parties.

Now I see why he lied about the parties. There were just so many of them, he couldn't possibly feds up without being finished.

You have to wonder what it's like being inside the head of a Kitson like this, who assumed giving the rods to the rest of us and behaving by his own rules was fine as long as he didn't get caught.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 25, 2022, 01:01:51 pm
https://mobile.twitter.com/willbott4/status/1485948169741611012

This.

Of all the things that should have finished Johnson's career.

Aiding and abetting GBH.
Paying his mistress out of public funds.
Lying repeatedly throughout the Brexit campaign.
Signing a deal with the EU that he didn't understand then constantly lied about.
Going AWOL to sort out his divorce while COVID took hold.
In the second wave, shouting "Let the bodies pile high" then standing in front of the nation, looking us in the eye and saying "We truly have done everything we can to protect you."
Just generally being a Kitson.

None of that has finished him off.

But a birthday cake will.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on January 25, 2022, 01:34:51 pm
At least it'll be a change of answer at PMQ's tomorrow. Instead of 'We must wait the outcome of Sue Gray's report'  to every question, we will have 'We must await the outcome of the Metropolitan Police inquiry'.

I'd go with a question not about the parties, but Boris's lies.

Q1: Something along the lines of "On (insert correct date here) the Prime Minister stood at that Despatch Box and said 'There were no parties in Downing Street'. Can the Prime Mister confirm that he was telling the House the truth, and that he still stands by that statement?"

Then, after Boris has waffled and obviously ignored the question, ask exactly the same question again, but this time about the next Boris lie statement to the House, and so on.

What Boris has said in the Commons isn't part of the Gray Inquiry so he can't really say to wait for the report to questions like that.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on January 25, 2022, 01:52:05 pm
If the letters haven't gone in by now he's safe. The Met investigation will come out no case to prove all within a work environment, the Gray report will not be published he carries on lying until the next time he is caught out. jmho
Unless of course there is some damning evidence still to come out. Has he ever been challenged about any entertainment at Checkers yet?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 25, 2022, 02:03:47 pm
This looks like it could be the cover up to end all cover ups.

The plan, apparently, is to publish all the parts of the Gray report that don't refer to the things that the Met is investigating.

So the redacted report will have no smoking gun.

Then if the Met investigate and report that there is nothing to justify them taking any action, the redacted parts of the Gray report can be shelved as irrelevant.

Is that realistic? Well the Electoral Commission gave the Met a file on illegal use of funds by the Leave side in the 2016 Ref. The Met sat on it for two years, while Johnson was elected, then summarily announced that there was no case to answer. To the best of my knowledge, they have never explained the basis of that decision. And attention moves on.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on January 25, 2022, 02:41:46 pm
This looks like it could be the cover up to end all cover ups.

The plan, apparently, is to publish all the parts of the Gray report that don't refer to the things that the Met is investigating.

So the redacted report will have no smoking gun.

Then if the Met investigate and report that there is nothing to justify them taking any action, the redacted parts of the Gray report can be shelved as irrelevant.

Is that realistic? Well the Electoral Commission gave the Met a file on illegal use of funds by the Leave side in the 2016 Ref. The Met sat on it for two years, while Johnson was elected, then summarily announced that there was no case to answer. To the best of my knowledge, they have never explained the basis of that decision. And attention moves on.

Countries have descended into Civil War for less
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Metalmicky on January 25, 2022, 03:48:29 pm
But a birthday cake will.

I wonder if it was a Colin the caterpillar cake...................... just for added controversy?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 25, 2022, 04:00:30 pm
I strongly suspect Metpol will not come out of this smelling of roses.
I fail to see a situation where Cressida Dick will be presiding over a criminal prosecution against no10 .
In which case it will be seen by many, as Corruption of the highest order. A sweep under the carpet at the very highest level.with a big dollop of collaboration no doubt between the chief officer group in Metpol and the Cabinet.
“Insufficient evidence to prosecute” or something worded very similar.
God forbid they roll out “not in the public interest” Jesus. That would set the cat amongst the pigeons.
The voting public have already made up their mind about Partygate, no matter what any enquiry throws up. The damage has been well and truly done.

Any goodwill and faith we have left in this govt is dwindling. We already have large parts of society also that have little or no faith in the Police too.
I genuinely fear a whitewashing by Metpol. The very organisation entrusted to oversee law and order in the Capital. This  won’t help either cause. And this worries me. A lot.

It should not have come to this. Boris could and should have stepped aside. Collateral damage. Caused by his own lack of leadership, bad decision making and misjudgement. Instead this will go on and on and on.
Russia has a gun to the head of Ukraine and Western Europe, and the Conservative Party has put a gun to its own head.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 25, 2022, 04:43:04 pm
And if no10 think a paltry fine will be forthcoming, Think again. Because the offence that should be considered would be “misconduct in a public office.”
Which in any other job would be gross misconduct. And if found guilty, instant dismissal.

Definition.

 'A public officer acting as such wilfully neglects to perform his duty and/or wilfully misconducts himself to such a degree as to amount to an abuse of the public's trust in the office holder without reasonable excuse or justification.

I would say the constituent elements of this offence would be met for anyone at any party in no10.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: selby on January 25, 2022, 04:58:24 pm
  It's not normal rules though is it?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: phil old leake on January 25, 2022, 05:10:01 pm
Moving in from this and diversifying a little

Does anyone else feel that they couldn’t employ D Cummings. He’s an untrustworthy snake who’d stab anyone in the back
That’s got nothing to do with what’s happened at number 10 they deserve everything that’s coming

I just find Cummings a 2 faced hypocrite
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: selby on January 25, 2022, 05:41:15 pm
If you want to destroy someone or something to your advantage who would be better to employ?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 25, 2022, 05:41:53 pm
Moving in from this and diversifying a little

Does anyone else feel that they couldn’t employ D Cummings. He’s an untrustworthy snake who’d stab anyone in the back
That’s got nothing to do with what’s happened at number 10 they deserve everything that’s coming

I just find Cummings a 2 faced hypocrite

Unfortunately in the absence of any credible opposition currently residing within the Labour Party .

Cummings will have to do oh and Marcus Rashford plus Gary Neville .

 :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: selby on January 25, 2022, 05:52:23 pm
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 25, 2022, 05:59:03 pm
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on January 25, 2022, 06:58:12 pm
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 25, 2022, 07:07:22 pm
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: scawsby steve on January 25, 2022, 07:25:29 pm
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

F*cking hell, the prospect of snake oil Chuka Umunna as Prime Minister draws ever closer.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 25, 2022, 07:38:58 pm
Cummings should be sent to Moscow, as British ambassador. He’d do a job there for us.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 25, 2022, 07:52:33 pm
Cummings should be sent to Moscow, as British ambassador. He’d do a job there for us.

He spent a good chunk of his 20s there and has been very coy on what he did.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 25, 2022, 07:55:13 pm
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

F*cking hell, the prospect of snake oil Chuka Umunna as Prime Minister draws ever closer.
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

There's not a chance in a million of the Tories not being in the top 2 in a General Election anytime soon. There's a core of 25-30% who will never leave them. And they are well distributed across constituencies. So it's almost inconceivable that they'd ever get much fewer that 200 seats.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on January 25, 2022, 08:12:33 pm
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

Labour voters too. If there was an election tomorrow, the Lib Dems would get my vote.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on January 25, 2022, 08:23:14 pm
Met Police refuse to confirm or deny they will be investigating claims of perverting the course of justice (destroying evidence) around the investigation into Downing Street events.

Breaking lockdown rules was a fine - but that's a jail sentence.

https://twitter.com/openDemocracy/status/1486059466898427913
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 25, 2022, 08:23:20 pm
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

F*cking hell, the prospect of snake oil Chuka Umunna as Prime Minister draws ever closer.
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

There's not a chance in a million of the Tories not being in the top 2 in a General Election anytime soon. There's a core of 25-30% who will never leave them. And they are well distributed across constituencies. So it's almost inconceivable that they'd ever get much fewer that 200 seats.

Well it isn't inconceivable is it because they only won 165 seats in 1997 .

So it is possible given the damage they've contributed to themselves today is far more than in the mid 90's .

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 25, 2022, 08:24:34 pm
''The police investigation into Downing Street parties is set to uncover evidence which has not yet been submitted to the Sue Gray inquiry, according to former No 10 staffers.

The prime minister’s ex-chief adviser, Dominic Cummings, had previously warned that officials were deeply uncomfortable with handing over some evidence to the inquiry, believing they could face retribution for damaging information.

But one senior Tory with knowledge of the inquiry said the announcement of a criminal inquiry on Tuesday made it a “different ballgame”, adding: “Officials who don’t tell Sue Gray the whole truth will not hold back from the cops.”

Will the police find that there were those in #10 that actually did some work? will they find the plods on duty in and around #10 were compromised? don't hold your breath on those two questions being answered.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 25, 2022, 08:31:01 pm
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

F*cking hell, the prospect of snake oil Chuka Umunna as Prime Minister draws ever closer.
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

There's not a chance in a million of the Tories not being in the top 2 in a General Election anytime soon. There's a core of 25-30% who will never leave them. And they are well distributed across constituencies. So it's almost inconceivable that they'd ever get much fewer that 200 seats.

Well it isn't inconceivable is it because they only won 165 seats in 1997 .

So it is possible given the damage they've contributed to themselves today is far more than in the mid 90's .



That's several worlds away. Voters used to switch in large numbers directly between Lab and Con in those days. They do it far less these days.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 25, 2022, 08:34:33 pm
A question worth asking is, what would it take for the coppers at #10 to take action over criminal activity by senior politicians or public servants?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 25, 2022, 08:49:41 pm
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

F*cking hell, the prospect of snake oil Chuka Umunna as Prime Minister draws ever closer.
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

There's not a chance in a million of the Tories not being in the top 2 in a General Election anytime soon. There's a core of 25-30% who will never leave them. And they are well distributed across constituencies. So it's almost inconceivable that they'd ever get much fewer that 200 seats.

Well it isn't inconceivable is it because they only won 165 seats in 1997 .

So it is possible given the damage they've contributed to themselves today is far more than in the mid 90's .



That's several worlds away. Voters used to switch in large numbers directly between Lab and Con in those days. They do it far less these days.

I haven't suggested they'd switch between Tory and Labour , I've suggested a Tory government is in danger from the Dems in their own back yard .
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 25, 2022, 09:04:00 pm
A question worth asking is, what would it take for the coppers at #10 to take action over criminal activity by senior politicians or public servants?

Probably dependant on any offers from the Tory government on extra funding for the Met .

That tends to be the Tory way when they need the law onside .

Thatcher didn't significantly increase the pay for police officers for nowt during those troubled times in the 80's .
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 25, 2022, 09:22:54 pm
It wasn't planned law breaking it was spontaneous law breaking apparently.

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 25, 2022, 09:25:57 pm
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

F*cking hell, the prospect of snake oil Chuka Umunna as Prime Minister draws ever closer.
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

There's not a chance in a million of the Tories not being in the top 2 in a General Election anytime soon. There's a core of 25-30% who will never leave them. And they are well distributed across constituencies. So it's almost inconceivable that they'd ever get much fewer that 200 seats.

Well it isn't inconceivable is it because they only won 165 seats in 1997 .

So it is possible given the damage they've contributed to themselves today is far more than in the mid 90's .



That's several worlds away. Voters used to switch in large numbers directly between Lab and Con in those days. They do it far less these days.

I haven't suggested they'd switch between Tory and Labour , I've suggested a Tory government is in danger from the Dems in their own back yard .


They might lose the odd marginal, but you don't seem to factor in how powerful the whole Culture War concept is.

Culturally, the LDs are further removed from the Tories than Labour are.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 25, 2022, 09:33:46 pm
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

F*cking hell, the prospect of snake oil Chuka Umunna as Prime Minister draws ever closer.
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

There's not a chance in a million of the Tories not being in the top 2 in a General Election anytime soon. There's a core of 25-30% who will never leave them. And they are well distributed across constituencies. So it's almost inconceivable that they'd ever get much fewer that 200 seats.

Well it isn't inconceivable is it because they only won 165 seats in 1997 .

So it is possible given the damage they've contributed to themselves today is far more than in the mid 90's .



That's several worlds away. Voters used to switch in large numbers directly between Lab and Con in those days. They do it far less these days.

I haven't suggested they'd switch between Tory and Labour , I've suggested a Tory government is in danger from the Dems in their own back yard .


They might lose the odd marginal, but you don't seem to factor in how powerful the whole Culture War concept is.

Culturally, the LDs are further removed from the Tories than Labour are.

You'd be amazed how many people aren't even aware of what you describe as a culture war Billy .

Certainly not in North Shropshire recently .

Maybe it's a Labour thing , I don't know .

I have to say you seem to be lukewarm at best towards the Dems Billy .

If you want rid of the Tories then you may have to compromise .

Isn't that right .
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 25, 2022, 09:39:09 pm
The atmosphere in #10 post partygate Grey and police inquiries

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCNq19mUQ1U
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 25, 2022, 09:39:24 pm
A question worth asking is, what would it take for the coppers at #10 to take action over criminal activity by senior politicians or public servants?

The cops on the door of no 10 did nothing when Blair wagering war crimes from his living room there. And this is not a slur on Labour. My point is the cops that police Downing Street are just cops. PCs. They probably are not even detectives.
They have a simple mandate. Protect Downing Street and those that live/ work down there. Nothing else.
It would be a bit like asking a royal protection officer to arrest Prince Andrew for child sex offences. Ain’t going to happen.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 25, 2022, 09:40:38 pm
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

F*cking hell, the prospect of snake oil Chuka Umunna as Prime Minister draws ever closer.
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

There's not a chance in a million of the Tories not being in the top 2 in a General Election anytime soon. There's a core of 25-30% who will never leave them. And they are well distributed across constituencies. So it's almost inconceivable that they'd ever get much fewer that 200 seats.

Well it isn't inconceivable is it because they only won 165 seats in 1997 .

So it is possible given the damage they've contributed to themselves today is far more than in the mid 90's .



That's several worlds away. Voters used to switch in large numbers directly between Lab and Con in those days. They do it far less these days.

I haven't suggested they'd switch between Tory and Labour , I've suggested a Tory government is in danger from the Dems in their own back yard .


They might lose the odd marginal, but you don't seem to factor in how powerful the whole Culture War concept is.

Culturally, the LDs are further removed from the Tories than Labour are.

The Lib Dem’s manifesto makes for scary reading.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 25, 2022, 09:47:09 pm
A question worth asking is, what would it take for the coppers at #10 to take action over criminal activity by senior politicians or public servants?

The cops on the door of no 10 did nothing when Blair wagering war crimes from his living room there. And this is not a slur on Labour. My point is the cops that police Downing Street are just cops. PCs. They probably are not even detectives.
They have a simple mandate. Protect Downing Street and those that live/ work down there. Nothing else.
It would be a bit like asking a royal protection officer to arrest Prince Andrew for child sex offences. Ain’t going to happen.

Not taking it as a slur but didn't all your undercover work tell you that it's unlikely that they were party to conversations within the building.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 25, 2022, 09:51:01 pm
It’s also quite possible that the cops working no10 had no idea there were parties taking place.
Had they known, and blew the whistle, I’d imagine they would have been found alternative employment directing traffic in Clapham.
Sometimes, in life it easier just to keep your mouth shut I guess.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on January 25, 2022, 09:52:50 pm
A question worth asking is, what would it take for the coppers at #10 to take action over criminal activity by senior politicians or public servants?

The cops on the door of no 10 did nothing when Blair wagering war crimes from his living room there. And this is not a slur on Labour. My point is the cops that police Downing Street are just cops. PCs. They probably are not even detectives.
They have a simple mandate. Protect Downing Street and those that live/ work down there. Nothing else.
It would be a bit like asking a royal protection officer to arrest Prince Andrew for child sex offences. Ain’t going to happen.

Not taking it as a slur but didn't all your undercover work tell you that it's unlikely that they were party to conversations within the building.

I think that is the point that NR is making, with reference to your “question worth asking”.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 25, 2022, 09:53:09 pm
It’s also quite possible that the cops working no10 had no idea there were parties taking place.
Had they known, and blew the whistle, I’d imagine they would have been found alternative employment directing traffic in Clapham.
Sometimes, in life it easier just to keep your mouth shut I guess.

which goes back to my original question: ''what would it take for the coppers at #10 to take action over criminal activity by senior politicians or public servants?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 25, 2022, 09:55:11 pm
It’s also quite possible that the cops working no10 had no idea there were parties taking place.
Had they known, and blew the whistle, I’d imagine they would have been found alternative employment directing traffic in Clapham.
Sometimes, in life it easier just to keep your mouth shut I guess.

which goes back to my original question: ''what would it take for the coppers at #10 to take action over criminal activity by senior politicians or public servants?

A frontal lobotomy.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 25, 2022, 09:56:59 pm
It’s also quite possible that the cops working no10 had no idea there were parties taking place.
Had they known, and blew the whistle, I’d imagine they would have been found alternative employment directing traffic in Clapham.
Sometimes, in life it easier just to keep your mouth shut I guess.

which goes back to my original question: ''what would it take for the coppers at #10 to take action over criminal activity by senior politicians or public servants?

A frontal lobotomy.

Yep, so much for the separation of powers, without fear or favour and all that.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 25, 2022, 10:04:30 pm
Justified, proportionate and necessary are the three key considerations I think you will find are utilised prior to anyone having their liberty taken. In downing st or anywhere else.

Of course, there are many barrack room  lawyers who would argue any or all of these conditions being met on this occasion.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 25, 2022, 10:10:22 pm
I don't wish to drag the conversation to another point on the map but ask any non-white person subject to a stop and search if they think that criteria was used when they are 9x more likely to be the subject of one.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 25, 2022, 10:34:44 pm
I don't wish to drag the conversation to another point on the map but ask any non-white person subject to a stop and search if they think that criteria was used when they are 9x more likely to be the subject of one.

Problem you have there Sydney is that two thirds of knife crime commited in London is by black or other ethnic groups .

Thats a fact by the way .

Now I know there is a link between poverty and crime amongst ethnic groups , twas ever thus .

Now it isn't the police's job to solve inequality but it is there's to solve knife crime .

To stop and search more ethnic groups in tough London areas isn't necessarily racist it's just plain common sense given the facts are the facts .

I'd suggest solving inequality is the way forward but you yourself would sooner return a centrist government .

Well that doesn't solve historically what you desire .
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 25, 2022, 10:45:13 pm
I was going to suggest that following johnson's permanent exit that all those entering-leaving #10 should be breath tested but there would have to be a major clear out of all senior staff 'in the know' and party planners.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 25, 2022, 10:50:34 pm
yet more fodder for the cartoonists

''But Leader of the Commons Jacob Rees-Mogg told reporters the PM's leadership had been "brilliant", and the government had done "an amazing job" throughout the pandemic.

And Tory MP Sir Edward Leigh told MPs: "When Europe stands on the brink of war and there is a cost-of-living crisis, can we please have a sense of proportion over the prime minister being given a piece of cake in his own office by his own staff?"''

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-60123850
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 25, 2022, 11:27:03 pm
This is a good one.

It appears according to a source in the Treasury, that Sunak was also at the birthday party. But he thought he was attending a COVID strategy meeting.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 25, 2022, 11:28:43 pm
''Breaches of Covid rules normally result in a fine. But since they were first introduced in March 2020, the rules have changed more than 70 times. Thus the starting point for the Met special inquiry team who are now investigating is establishing what laws were actually in place. Then they will be looking for any physical evidence Gray may have acquired, such as CCTV showing who was where at certain times, data from security cards also showing the locations of individuals, and emails. Acquiring photos from mobile phones may also help speed up matters''

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/jan/25/met-partygate-inquiry-latest-run-in-police-politics

And all because johnson, everyone's favourite coward wants to squirm out of resigning.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 26, 2022, 07:16:04 am
''A Nation that's lost all sense of Proportion'' screams out the Mail in solid black capitals, suggesting that with the Russia crisis there are more important things than birthday cake to worry about, which is true, but who put the nation in this position and who on earth thinks that johnson is up to handling anything more than blowing out candles. If journalists had done their jobs in the first place they would have all asked any candidate up for the PMs job and the public if they thought they would be up to dealing with an international emergency, let alone one at home.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on January 26, 2022, 11:14:17 am
It's not about a piece of cake, it's about a PM that's lying to Parliament.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: MachoMadness on January 26, 2022, 12:15:08 pm
I love this idea of a bunch of people wandering about, constantly surrounded by parties without realising it. It's like a Viz bit. Oh, I've ended up at a Snap gig surrounded by glowsticks, maybe it's a work event.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: turnbull for england on January 26, 2022, 12:38:47 pm
Mails just hoping that headline glosses over the fact that people missed saying goodbye to loved ones as they died alone, as well as the myriad of other sacrifices made whilst those setting the agenda paid  no attention. Hopefully that will be seen for what it is
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 26, 2022, 01:16:05 pm
The next line of defence that everyone has been peddling, and that Johnson positively screamed at PMQs today, is interesting.

"Yes we might be a bunch of lying entitled Kitsons, but we got all the big calls right on COVID."

This from the PM who cost us maybe 30,000 lives by locking down late in March 2020, and perhaps more than that by delaying lockdown at Xmas 2020.

He's going to try to get this line down as a fact isn't he? "We got all the big calls right." f**k me sideways.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Donnywolf on January 26, 2022, 01:27:11 pm

... repeatedly and proven time and again
It's not about a piece of cake, it's about a PM that's lying to Parliament.


Latest .... The dogs and Pen Farthing. Johnson said no no saying he had deffo not authorized the priority removal of the dogs etc


Today the Email dropped into view showing that Johnson did EXACTLY what he said he didnt
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on January 26, 2022, 01:45:13 pm
PM-not-answering-Qs
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Donnywolf on January 26, 2022, 02:21:42 pm
It should be abolished along with other arcane and archaic procedures

They should leave the building itself for a smaller 21st Century one and modernise everything
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 26, 2022, 03:25:39 pm
As I was saying about tribalism.


Survation opinion poll today:
"If the police investigation finds Johnson broke the law, should he resign?"

37% of Tory voters from 2019 say "No".
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on January 26, 2022, 03:47:04 pm
When will people realise that much of the British public prefer someone who broke social distancing rules to someone who wanted to revoke a democratic vote!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Donnywolf on January 26, 2022, 04:09:59 pm
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

F*cking hell, the prospect of snake oil Chuka Umunna as Prime Minister draws ever closer.
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

There's not a chance in a million of the Tories not being in the top 2 in a General Election anytime soon. There's a core of 25-30% who will never leave them. And they are well distributed across constituencies. So it's almost inconceivable that they'd ever get much fewer that 200 seats.

Well it isn't inconceivable is it because they only won 165 seats in 1997 .

So it is possible given the damage they've contributed to themselves today is far more than in the mid 90's .



That's several worlds away. Voters used to switch in large numbers directly between Lab and Con in those days. They do it far less these days.

I haven't suggested they'd switch between Tory and Labour , I've suggested a Tory government is in danger from the Dems in their own back yard .


They might lose the odd marginal, but you don't seem to factor in how powerful the whole Culture War concept is.

Culturally, the LDs are further removed from the Tories than Labour are.

The Lib Dem’s manifesto makes for scary reading.

The above quote a quote a quote etc surely breaks the record for longest ever

Or it did
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on January 26, 2022, 05:21:34 pm
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

F*cking hell, the prospect of snake oil Chuka Umunna as Prime Minister draws ever closer.
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

There's not a chance in a million of the Tories not being in the top 2 in a General Election anytime soon. There's a core of 25-30% who will never leave them. And they are well distributed across constituencies. So it's almost inconceivable that they'd ever get much fewer that 200 seats.

Well it isn't inconceivable is it because they only won 165 seats in 1997 .

So it is possible given the damage they've contributed to themselves today is far more than in the mid 90's .



That's several worlds away. Voters used to switch in large numbers directly between Lab and Con in those days. They do it far less these days.

I haven't suggested they'd switch between Tory and Labour , I've suggested a Tory government is in danger from the Dems in their own back yard .


They might lose the odd marginal, but you don't seem to factor in how powerful the whole Culture War concept is.

Culturally, the LDs are further removed from the Tories than Labour are.

The Lib Dem’s manifesto makes for scary reading.

The above quote a quote a quote etc surely breaks the record for longest ever

Or it did

Not trying to extend the record here DW, but I have seen far more quote above quote etc posts on here mate.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 26, 2022, 06:06:17 pm
When will people realise that much of the British public prefer someone who broke social distancing rules to someone who wanted to revoke a democratic vote!

And who wanted to revoke the Brexit vote?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on January 26, 2022, 06:45:39 pm
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

F*cking hell, the prospect of snake oil Chuka Umunna as Prime Minister draws ever closer.
  That is the next big question Tyke, can Labour at the moment afford Johnson to be replaced.
  He is the only subject on their agenda at the moment, Covid, The Ukraine situation, the economy, fuel poverty, the main things to the electorate not really important to them, just get rid of Johnson, and the replacement no doubt will be a much bigger problem in a couple of years time if they manage to remove him.

I think this particular Tory Party is done for personally Selby .

I think the real question is can the Labour Party beat the Dems to form a majority government ?

That is a good point tyke.
It is very possible that lots of Tory voters will switch to the Libdems.

If Labour were to stand down any candidates in traditional Tory voting constituencies it would certainly ensure in many cases as things stand today that the Tories wouldn't win enough of their traditional seats .

With the former Red Wall returning it would be a pretty close thing in my opinion between Labour and The Dems .

Whether they'd work together is of course open to debate .

There's not a chance in a million of the Tories not being in the top 2 in a General Election anytime soon. There's a core of 25-30% who will never leave them. And they are well distributed across constituencies. So it's almost inconceivable that they'd ever get much fewer that 200 seats.

Well it isn't inconceivable is it because they only won 165 seats in 1997 .

So it is possible given the damage they've contributed to themselves today is far more than in the mid 90's .



That's several worlds away. Voters used to switch in large numbers directly between Lab and Con in those days. They do it far less these days.

I haven't suggested they'd switch between Tory and Labour , I've suggested a Tory government is in danger from the Dems in their own back yard .


They might lose the odd marginal, but you don't seem to factor in how powerful the whole Culture War concept is.

Culturally, the LDs are further removed from the Tories than Labour are.

The Lib Dem’s manifesto makes for scary reading.

The above quote a quote a quote etc surely breaks the record for longest ever

Or it did

Not trying to extend the record here DW, but I have seen far more quote above quote etc posts on here mate.

Me too
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on January 26, 2022, 07:18:29 pm
When will people realise that much of the British public prefer someone who broke social distancing rules to someone who wanted to revoke a democratic vote!

And who wanted to revoke the Brexit vote?
Funny why you thought of Brexit. If Starmer didn't want to revoke that vote, why would it even cross your mind to think that was the democratic vote I was talking about?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 26, 2022, 07:28:57 pm
Right, it's one of THOSE nights is it? I'm out.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on January 26, 2022, 07:43:26 pm
Right, it's one of THOSE nights is it? I'm out.
Annoying, int it!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Hounslowrover on January 26, 2022, 08:07:19 pm
What was the democratic vote then? Genuine question.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on January 26, 2022, 08:12:13 pm
When will people realise that much of the British public prefer someone who broke social distancing rules to someone who wanted to revoke a democratic vote!

And who wanted to revoke the Brexit vote?
Funny why you thought of Brexit. If Starmer didn't want to revoke that vote, why would it even cross your mind to think that was the democratic vote I was talking about?

To be fair, without all the information, it is impossible to know.
Speculation really.  ;)
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on January 26, 2022, 08:15:19 pm
Why do people just make stuff up! Polling for who would make best PM April 2020 - Jan 2022

https://www.statista.com/statistics/710316/prime-minister-voting-intention-in-great-britain/
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: big fat yorkshire pudding on January 26, 2022, 09:05:57 pm
Yet still #starmerout is trending on twitter....

Seems to be a race to the bottom for the main leaders.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 26, 2022, 09:26:34 pm
Yet still #starmerout is trending on twitter....

Seems to be a race to the bottom for the main leaders.

Starmer isn't in yet, but it shows what a threat the government think he is.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 26, 2022, 10:37:23 pm
I thought Bojo summed up stabber well today.

He is not a leader, he is a lawyer.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Not Now Kato on January 26, 2022, 10:56:28 pm
I thought Bojo summed up stabber well today.

He is not a leader, he is a lawyer.

Would you rather be led by a lawyer or a liar?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on January 26, 2022, 11:04:48 pm
I thought Bojo summed up stabber well today.

He is not a leader, he is a lawyer.

Would you rather be led by a lawyer or a liar?
Dead original!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 26, 2022, 11:41:21 pm
I thought Bojo summed up stabber well today.

He is not a leader, he is a lawyer.

Would you rather be led by a lawyer or a liar?
Dead original!

the black knight battles on

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZmInkxbvlCs
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 27, 2022, 07:10:46 am
I thought Bojo summed up stabber well today.

He is not a leader, he is a lawyer.

Would you rather be led by a lawyer or a liar?

Liars can be forgiven………..
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on January 27, 2022, 07:43:07 am
A bloke walks into a bar and shouts, “All Lawyers are ARSEHOLES!”

A man shouts back at him “I take exception to that statement!”

The first bloke said, “Are you a Lawyer?”

The man responded, “No, I’m an arsehole!”
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 27, 2022, 08:05:13 am
A bloke walks into a bar and shouts, “All Lawyers are ARSEHOLES!”

A man shouts back at him “I take exception to that statement!”

The first bloke said, “Are you a Lawyer?”

The man responded, “No, I’m an arsehole!”

That would be Mark Spencer then?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 27, 2022, 08:08:59 am
A bloke walks into a bar and shouts, “All Lawyers are ARSEHOLES!”

A man shouts back at him “I take exception to that statement!”

The first bloke said, “Are you a Lawyer?”

The man responded, “No, I’m an arsehole!”

That would be Mark Spencer then?

Don't go bb it's just banter aye?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: big fat yorkshire pudding on January 27, 2022, 08:43:18 am
I thought Bojo summed up stabber well today.

He is not a leader, he is a lawyer.

Would you rather be led by a lawyer or a liar?

Depends on the lawyer.....
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on January 27, 2022, 09:23:17 am
It is claimed that lawyers don't lie, but they sometimes hide the truth. The question is, is hiding the truth a form of lying?

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on January 27, 2022, 09:50:18 am
More an omission
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 27, 2022, 09:55:04 am
It is claimed that lawyers don't lie, but they sometimes hide the truth. The question is, is hiding the truth a form of lying?

There is one thing bb, there is no debate to be had about whether johnson is an inveterate liar aye?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: selby on January 27, 2022, 10:00:04 am
  What Stabber Starmer really is is a traitor to the UK electorate, He has voted 48 times against Brexit, some of them votes taken after the referendum result, he has colluded openly with the EU negotiators  to undermine the UK electorates and the countries standing when negotiations of an agreement were on going.
  He is not and never will be a person to trust, in times gone by he would have been shot or in the tower and rightly so.
  And whats more when he says he now accepts Brexit is done, he is a bare faced liar.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 27, 2022, 10:09:01 am
  What Stabber Starmer really is is a traitor to the UK electorate, He has voted 48 times against Brexit, some of them votes taken after the referendum result, he has colluded openly with the EU negotiators  to undermine the UK electorates and the countries standing when negotiations of an agreement were on going.
  He is not and never will be a person to trust, in times gone by he would have been shot or in the tower and rightly so.
  And whats more when he says he now accepts Brexit is done, he is a bare faced liar.

In the face of an electorate increasingly aware they made the wrong choice.

As a person that helped put johnson in #10 I don't think you are in a very strong position to talk about trust selby.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: idler on January 27, 2022, 10:42:54 am
To be fair what about Tory MPs that voted against a Brexit deal only to
accept a worse deal later.
I think that very few brixiteers got anywhere near any Brexit deal that they envisaged.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Not Now Kato on January 27, 2022, 10:49:01 am
When will people realise that much of the British public prefer someone who broke social distancing rules to someone who wanted to revoke a democratic vote!

You are John from Formby, and I claim my £5.
 
https://www.dkpw.co.uk/watch/John%20From%20Formby.mp3
 
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on January 27, 2022, 10:57:33 am
When will people realise that much of the British public prefer someone who broke social distancing rules to someone who wanted to revoke a democratic vote!

You are John from Formby, and I claim my £5.
 
https://www.dkpw.co.uk/watch/John%20From%20Formby.mp3
 


You've not been right yet, so there's nothing unusual about you being wrong this time. However, I do agree with John Formby, and I'd much rather be him than that utter bell end James O'brien.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 27, 2022, 11:23:20 am
When will people realise that much of the British public prefer someone who broke social distancing rules to someone who wanted to revoke a democratic vote!

You are John from Formby, and I claim my £5.
 
https://www.dkpw.co.uk/watch/John%20From%20Formby.mp3
 


You've not been right yet, so there's nothing unusual about you being wrong this time. However, I do agree with John Formby, and I'd much rather be him than that utter bell end James O'brien.

Having just listened to that, I have to ask you bb, has johnson fixed any of your problems?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 27, 2022, 01:52:27 pm
It’s  worth noting now that reports suggest Dame Cressida Dick herself has been viewing the evidence that has been presented to the Metpol at the weekend.
This is pretty unprecedented for a chief constable level officer to become directly involved in decision making processes at investigative level. They are normally way way above this, focussing merely on strategic level political stuff.
It’s not the magnitude of the offence, which to be frank is minor in itself, ( what I mean by this is it’s not exactly armed robbery)  it’s the magnitude of the implications on the offenders. There are huge amounts of reputation at stake here. For the govt and the police.
Simply put, it’s looking like  the highest level police officer in the country will assess and decide if this should be investigated. And if so, how. She will no doubt set the investigative tone and strategy.
They are probably in uncharted territory. This is only the second time a prime minister has been anywhere near a criminal investigation in the last 100years.
I’m unsure if there are any special protocols regarding this . The police have standing instructions to deal with most eventualities. I can’t imagine this is one of them.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 27, 2022, 02:25:05 pm
And now this.

“Ms Gray's findings are said to be undergoing checks by lawyers and human resources experts before they can be handed to the government.”

This is an independent enquiry ffs. I wonder who the lawyers and HR resources experts work for. How can this be independent? Sue Gray has a reputation of a no nonsense, tell it how it is, high level civil servant. I can see where the next shitstorm is coming, and it will be that this report will be redacted and edited and altered way before it reaches the oppositions eyes, let alone the public’s. I wonder what version the Metpol will get.?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: i_ateallthepies on January 27, 2022, 04:02:37 pm
It isn't an independent enquiry though n.r.  Completely agree with your last sentence.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 27, 2022, 09:14:47 pm
Meanwhile, as the Gray Report gets pushed into the indefinite future, the next line of defence.

Apparently, according to the Telegraph, Johnson couldn't have been ambushed by a cake because there wasn't a cake there.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on January 27, 2022, 09:23:18 pm
Let's get used to it, he's got away with it ....... again
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 27, 2022, 10:36:48 pm
Everything makes sense now.
He is a secret cod head. Seen numerous times over the last year or two wearing a cod head bobble hat.
But why?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 28, 2022, 10:12:03 am
This looks like it could be the cover up to end all cover ups.

The plan, apparently, is to publish all the parts of the Gray report that don't refer to the things that the Met is investigating.

So the redacted report will have no smoking gun.

Then if the Met investigate and report that there is nothing to justify them taking any action, the redacted parts of the Gray report can be shelved as irrelevant.

Is that realistic? Well the Electoral Commission gave the Met a file on illegal use of funds by the Leave side in the 2016 Ref. The Met sat on it for two years, while Johnson was elected, then summarily announced that there was no case to answer. To the best of my knowledge, they have never explained the basis of that decision. And attention moves on.

Here we go. Step 1 of the cover up.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60166997

Step 2 will be Johnson crowing next week that he's released the report in full for all to see and as he said all along, there's nothing to see.

Step 3 will be the Met dragging out their investigation for weeks or months until everyone is bored or has forgotten that revulsion they felt when they first heard about Johnson's partying.

Step 4 will be Cressida Dick saying that while there may have been some contraventions of the letter of the law, there's nothing to warrant prosecutions.

Step 5 is Johnson standing up in Parliament saying "I told you all along that I'd been honest on this point. I've been entirely vindicated. But it's clear that there was a culture among staff where the rules were flouted, and I'm disgusted at that. I have sacked several of my No10 team."


Just watch them try to roll it out.

Everyone who applies their brain to this will know it is b*llocks.

But that's not what matters. Johnson is a new breed of politician. We've never had his like before. He has absolutely zero capacity for shame. All that matters to him is power. It doesn't matter to him if people know he's a lying bas**rd. What matters is whether they support him.

If this plan rolls out and he is still supported by a large enough number of voters, he might well survive. And then our democracy truly is off the edge of the cliff.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on January 28, 2022, 10:16:13 am
I think it’s time for the Country to have a written constitution, rather than rely on precidence. To enable the Country to remove officials that are unfit for office, have the facility to impeach them 
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on January 28, 2022, 10:29:13 am
I think that's right BST but I think he's underestimating the trouble he's in.

We could not visit my mother in law as she lay dying of cancer throughout the pandemic. She finally passed away before we had chance to see her for the last time. Millions of people have similar traumatic stories. It's difficult to kick those memories into the long grass.

On top of that, I doubt Cummings has done with this, more revelations of dishonesty keep emerging. And finally, a leopard doesn't change his spots, if he does hang on, it won't be long before he is making new mistakes.

Edit. Oh and there are local elections. The Tories won't tolerate a loser for long.

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: big fat yorkshire pudding on January 28, 2022, 10:41:24 am
It's too big to be covered up.  You can't have it all ways. Big cry for police to investigate. They now are and there's grumbles the report isn't out.  Can't have it all ways. The key thing is it shouldn't take long.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on January 28, 2022, 10:47:40 am
It's too big to be covered up.  You can't have it all ways. Big cry for police to investigate. They now are and there's grumbles the report isn't out.  Can't have it all ways. The key thing is it shouldn't take long.

How can a factual report prejudice a Police investigation?

The punishment for the parties would only be a statuary  fine, there would be no trial, unless there is evidence of a more seriuos crim being committed
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 28, 2022, 10:53:31 am
BFYP

If the police take action against Johnson for holding parties, the very worst outcome for him would be a fine of s few hundred quid.

The criminal action isn't something that's going to send him to jail for years. It's not even something that would require a trial. So the whole sub judice argument is so much piss and wind. In that light, what possible justification can there be for redacting the Gray Report?

Unless of course, Gray really had found some very serious criminal activity.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 28, 2022, 10:53:43 am
Beat me to it Filo.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 28, 2022, 10:54:35 am
Hopefully the police will look at misconduct in public office

''Under English law, misconduct in public office is a criminal offence at common law that dates back to the 13th century.[2][3]

The offence carries a maximum penalty of life imprisonment. It is confined to those who are public office holders, and is committed when the office holder acts (or neglects to act) in a way that constitutes a breach of the duties of that office.[4]''

Life may be a tad too long but ...........

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malfeasance_in_office#:~:text=Under%20English%20law%2C%20misconduct%20in,maximum%20penalty%20of%20life%20imprisonment.&text=Wilfully%20neglects%20to%20perform%20one's%20duty%20and%2For%20wilfully%20misconducts%20oneself.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on January 28, 2022, 11:09:57 am
All three opposition parties voicing concerns about a possible cover up being engineered between the Met and Gray.

All demanding full disclosure of the Gray report.

And interestingly, someone has dug up an old report in the Times of the Downing Street birthday party, which featured a Union Jack birthday cake and confirms Boris and Sunak were in attendance.

I told you things will keep popping up.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 28, 2022, 11:32:33 am
There will be many feverishly updating ''Partygate'' wiki, it's quite a tome already.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partygate
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on January 28, 2022, 11:51:26 am
All three opposition parties voicing concerns about a possible cover up being engineered between the Met and Gray.

All demanding full disclosure of the Gray report.

And interestingly, someone has dug up an old report in the Times of the Downing Street birthday party, which featured a Union Jack birthday cake and confirms Boris and Sunak were in attendance.

I told you things will keep popping up.

I can't keep up. They had denied there was a birthday cake. So what is this Union Jack birthday cake?

Another lie in the lie-athon.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 28, 2022, 11:58:23 am
Dark forces at work here.
The Home Secretary overseas everything the Police does. Especially so when her own are being investigated.
And now Metpol saying they don’t want certain Disclosures made as it may undermine their enquiry?
Is this the Metpol stance, or are they under influence by the very people they are trying to investigate. A very, very tangled web.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on January 28, 2022, 12:07:36 pm
All three opposition parties voicing concerns about a possible cover up being engineered between the Met and Gray.

All demanding full disclosure of the Gray report.

And interestingly, someone has dug up an old report in the Times of the Downing Street birthday party, which featured a Union Jack birthday cake and confirms Boris and Sunak were in attendance.

I told you things will keep popping up.

I can't keep up. They had denied there was a birthday cake. So what is this Union Jack birthday cake?

Another lie in the lie-athon.

The Minister that denied there was a cake said earlier in the day that the PM had been ambushed by a cake, the PM told him there was no cake, so we can only assume on past PM statements, there was actually a lorry load of cakes!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on January 28, 2022, 12:50:09 pm
More on Cakegate

No 10 said they could not comment on whether or not there was cake at a birthday celebration for the prime minister until investigations into the partygate saga had concluded.

Tory MP Conor Burns previously said the prime minister had been “ambushed with a cake” at a surprise birthday bash in the Cabinet room on June 19 2020 when social events indoors were banned.

But Burns later told the Telegraph’s political podcast:

I’m told under some authority, indeed from him, that there actually wasn’t a cake.

However an article from The Times from June 20, 2020, has since resurfaced where it was reported the group “tucked into a Union Jack cake” at the gathering.

A spokesman for Boris Johnson said:

So you will know what we said earlier this week on the matter, that small number of staff briefly came into the Cabinet room on the PM’s birthday.

Beyond that I can’t comment further ahead of any conclusion of the investigation.


Caught out lying about a birthday cake. With the Police and Civil Service investigating.

You simply could not make this up. What a child we have as PM.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 28, 2022, 12:56:35 pm
Maybe it was Brass Eye cake. That would put a different angle on the investigation.

Seriously though, this does feel like classic Johnson tactics. Turn the whole thing into a ridiculous mess, and pull attention away from the real issue.

He told us how he planned to operate 15 years back. Look at the video halfway down this page.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60159226

Seemed like a buffoonish laugh at the time. But look closely at his face. He's not laughing. He's not being daft. He's being absolutely straight. And it's what he's done ever since. And he's doing it now. Distract us with chaff about cake while he and the Met bury the Gray Report.

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on January 28, 2022, 01:09:20 pm
BST, the Times story was unearthed by a young financial journalist from the economist. He describes himself online as "just a young lad from Leeds with a thirst for markets.

It's stretching it to believe this is anything other than a young journo doing a bit of research and catching Johnson out.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 28, 2022, 01:18:04 pm
Yeah but the ground has been laid by stories about whether there was or wasn't cake, about him being ambushed by cake etc...

It fits into the pattern. Give the plebs something to guffaw at while he gets on with his main task.

And Johnson's genius is that he can carry off the bumbling gaffe-prone idiot facade and fold still vote for him. No other politician has ever survived looking ridiculous. With Johnson, the whole aim is precisely to look ridiculous. To distract attention from the lying, deceiving, self-serving Kitson he really is.

That's why Partygate has hit him so hard. Because millions of people say for the first time what was under the facade. The cake stories are perfect stuff to cover that up again.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on January 28, 2022, 01:24:49 pm
I don't think Johnson is that much of a genius.

I think he was caught out by reports of yet another party, a birthday party at that.

It's difficult to deny it was a birthday party if a birthday cake was present. So he denied there was a cake.

And now he's been caught out again. Simple as that.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 28, 2022, 01:42:27 pm
I think he's a genius in the way that Trump and many pathological liars are. In his ability to not care what thinking people think, but to appeal beyond that to other people.

He does something which takes phenomenal will power.

He stands in front of people who know he is lying and he effectively says, week after week, "I know I'm lying.  You know I'm lying. But who gives a f**k because there are millions of voters out there who either don't know I'm lying, or they do but they don't care. And I'm going to keep on lying while I make THOSE people chuckle, and if I can keep enough of them onside, it doesn't matter what you think."

He realised a while ago that the British Constitution relies entirely on people playing by the rules. If you were caught lying, you left. But that was a choice, not a requirement.

I've recently read a lot about the life of Julius Caesar. Johnson read Greats at Oxford so I'm sure he knows the story inside out.

Caesar was a chancer who struck lucky. Twenty times he faced disaster. Every time he went all-in on a 10/1 shot and won.

He was a debauched adulterer and everyone in the Senate knew it. He shocked Roman society by being elected Chief Priest despite this. It was a farcical situation because everyone who knew him knew he was the least moral man in Rome. But he didn't care. He wasn't interested in honesty or standards. He wanted power. And he got that by using his position to gain the support of the ordinary people. He whipped up a mob who loved him and threatened to kill anyone who opposed him.

Johnson has read the script. He's not interested in whether people who know see through him. As long as enough of the plebs buy into his act. And in a poll this week, still 30% of voters say he shouldn't resign. Might be enough for him to hold on. Which truly would be Caesar-like genius.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on January 28, 2022, 02:09:12 pm
"Et tu, Rishi?"
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on January 28, 2022, 04:57:54 pm
He was also brilliant at hide and seek. It never matters which one of his women hides because Julius Caesar.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on January 28, 2022, 05:03:30 pm
It's Friday

It's 5pm

Get the suitcase open lads!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on January 28, 2022, 05:06:03 pm
I'll just have a beer and stand at the window.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Janso on January 28, 2022, 05:16:38 pm
Dark forces at work here.
The Home Secretary overseas everything the Police does. Especially so when her own are being investigated.
And now Metpol saying they don’t want certain Disclosures made as it may undermine their enquiry?
Is this the Metpol stance, or are they under influence by the very people they are trying to investigate. A very, very tangled web.

It's the Foreign Secretary that's going overseas surely.  :coat:
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on January 28, 2022, 05:16:58 pm
I'll just have a beer and stand at the window.

Cake?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on January 28, 2022, 05:29:22 pm
I'll just have a beer and stand at the window.

Cake?

It's got cocaine in it!

Sorry, I meant... What's that stuff?. Rhubarb.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: selby on January 28, 2022, 06:11:50 pm
  Just enjoy the pint BB, be careful of vibrations though, there are plenty stamping their feet.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on January 28, 2022, 07:41:25 pm
Interesting surmision here from the Secret Barrister as to why they think the Met have asked to 'censor' the report

https://thesecretbarrister.com/2022/01/28/why-on-earth-would-the-metropolitan-police-ask-sue-gray-to-redact-key-parts-of-her-independent-report/

Probably also worth reminding yourself that there is currently an ongoing police investigation into Class A drug use in Parliament, after traces were found in several places including a toilet next to Johnson's office

https://www.businessinsider.com/cocaine-traces-found-uk-parliament-including-near-pms-office-report-2021-12?r=US&IR=T

It's also nice to keep having confirmation that some posters have never criticised Johnson - whatever he does - but will attack those who do. That's what he is relying on - its how fascism works.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on January 28, 2022, 07:44:55 pm
In seperate but related cover up news:

The Met Police has refused to release details of its decision not to investigate the £3m ‘cash for peerages’ scandal in the House of Lords

https://twitter.com/PeterKGeoghegan/status/1487099024868061188
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 28, 2022, 08:39:18 pm
I've thought about this for many many years probably from the time of the financial crash in 2008 .

You know you can corrupt everything you want to retain power , rig the game anyway you want , pass this law that law or even have the armed forces backing you .

History tells us that only works for a certain period of time .

History tells us that if you don't quite get the balance right between corruption , a rigged society and enough to eat for the vast majority of the people it isn't going to end well for those at the top .

All it takes is a spark , I wouldn't suggest for one minute we are even close right now but the direction of travel isn't good I have to say .

It could go up in the US any day and in my opinion it probably will descend in to a civil war and that day isn't too far away .

I sincerely hope it never happens here but I wouldn't dismiss massive disorder breaking out either given as I say the direction of travel this country is heading towards .



Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on January 28, 2022, 08:58:56 pm
I've thought about this for many many years probably from the time of the financial crash in 2008 .

You know you can corrupt everything you want to retain power , rig the game anyway you want , pass this law that law or even have the armed forces backing you .

History tells us that only works for a certain period of time .

History tells us that if you don't quite get the balance right between corruption , a rigged society and enough to eat for the vast majority of the people it isn't going to end well for those at the top .

All it takes is a spark , I wouldn't suggest for one minute we are even close right now but the direction of travel isn't good I have to say .

It could go up in the US any day and in my opinion it probably will descend in to a civil war and that day isn't too far away .

I sincerely hope it never happens here but I wouldn't dismiss massive disorder breaking out either given as I say the direction of travel this country is heading towards .





I agree, in the current climate civil disobedience can’t be too far away, if this was happening in another Country the UK would be shouting corruption from the rooftops
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on January 28, 2022, 09:18:51 pm
... And we are looking a big hit in living standards full in the face.

And it's really not that long ago since we had widespread riots.

Interesting times.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 28, 2022, 09:40:54 pm
I've thought about this for many many years probably from the time of the financial crash in 2008 .

You know you can corrupt everything you want to retain power , rig the game anyway you want , pass this law that law or even have the armed forces backing you .

History tells us that only works for a certain period of time .

History tells us that if you don't quite get the balance right between corruption , a rigged society and enough to eat for the vast majority of the people it isn't going to end well for those at the top .

All it takes is a spark , I wouldn't suggest for one minute we are even close right now but the direction of travel isn't good I have to say .

It could go up in the US any day and in my opinion it probably will descend in to a civil war and that day isn't too far away .

I sincerely hope it never happens here but I wouldn't dismiss massive disorder breaking out either given as I say the direction of travel this country is heading towards .





I agree, in the current climate civil disobedience can’t be too far away, if this was happening in another Country the UK would be shouting corruption from the rooftops

There's clearly nothing Johnson and his minions won't throw under the bus to hold on to power .

Once the state decides to limit its powers and focus on those who aren't at the top of the tree you are heading in to very serious territory .

As an enemy of the state in 84/85 I'm more than well placed to know what it's capabilities are , it's never left me .

However this is different territory today , this isn't about putting down some trade union and it's leader this has consequences for everybody who is just about getting by .

Just about getting by is measured in millions rather than a NUM membership in to the thousands .

I'm of the opinion since 2008 almost everything is capable of happening and all it needs is for want of a better term " a perfect storm " .

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on January 28, 2022, 09:43:17 pm
I've thought about this for many many years probably from the time of the financial crash in 2008 .

You know you can corrupt everything you want to retain power , rig the game anyway you want , pass this law that law or even have the armed forces backing you .

History tells us that only works for a certain period of time .

History tells us that if you don't quite get the balance right between corruption , a rigged society and enough to eat for the vast majority of the people it isn't going to end well for those at the top .

All it takes is a spark , I wouldn't suggest for one minute we are even close right now but the direction of travel isn't good I have to say .

It could go up in the US any day and in my opinion it probably will descend in to a civil war and that day isn't too far away .

I sincerely hope it never happens here but I wouldn't dismiss massive disorder breaking out either given as I say the direction of travel this country is heading towards .





I agree, in the current climate civil disobedience can’t be too far away, if this was happening in another Country the UK would be shouting corruption from the rooftops

There's clearly nothing Johnson and his minions won't throw under the bus to hold on to power .

Once the state decides to limit its powers and focus on those who aren't at the top of the tree you are heading in to very serious territory .

As an enemy of the state in 84/85 I'm more than well placed to know what it's capabilities are , it's never left me .

However this is different territory today , this isn't about putting down some trade union and it's leader this has consequences for everybody who is just about getting by .

Just about getting by is measured in millions rather than a NUM membership in to the thousands .

I'm of the opinion since 2008 almost everything is capable of happening and all it needs is for want of a better term " a perfect storm " .



And going back to 84, we all know what the Met were like and what they stand for, Tory private army
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: glosterred on January 28, 2022, 09:43:31 pm
All this talk over a party in June 2020,  when it was first reported in June of that year no one gave a shit, why now?

https://order-order.com/2022/01/28/burns-claims-boris-denies-birthday-cake/


Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on January 28, 2022, 09:52:22 pm
All this talk over a party in June 2020,  when it was first reported in June of that year no one gave a shit, why now?

https://order-order.com/2022/01/28/burns-claims-boris-denies-birthday-cake/




Ever heard of Marie Antoinette?

Entitlement and arrogance in the face of real hardship. That's what's coming.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 28, 2022, 10:14:47 pm
I've thought about this for many many years probably from the time of the financial crash in 2008 .

You know you can corrupt everything you want to retain power , rig the game anyway you want , pass this law that law or even have the armed forces backing you .

History tells us that only works for a certain period of time .

History tells us that if you don't quite get the balance right between corruption , a rigged society and enough to eat for the vast majority of the people it isn't going to end well for those at the top .

All it takes is a spark , I wouldn't suggest for one minute we are even close right now but the direction of travel isn't good I have to say .

It could go up in the US any day and in my opinion it probably will descend in to a civil war and that day isn't too far away .

I sincerely hope it never happens here but I wouldn't dismiss massive disorder breaking out either given as I say the direction of travel this country is heading towards .





I agree, in the current climate civil disobedience can’t be too far away, if this was happening in another Country the UK would be shouting corruption from the rooftops

There's clearly nothing Johnson and his minions won't throw under the bus to hold on to power .

Once the state decides to limit its powers and focus on those who aren't at the top of the tree you are heading in to very serious territory .

As an enemy of the state in 84/85 I'm more than well placed to know what it's capabilities are , it's never left me .

However this is different territory today , this isn't about putting down some trade union and it's leader this has consequences for everybody who is just about getting by .

Just about getting by is measured in millions rather than a NUM membership in to the thousands .

I'm of the opinion since 2008 almost everything is capable of happening and all it needs is for want of a better term " a perfect storm " .



And going back to 84, we all know what the Met were like and what they stand for, Tory private army

More than that Filo what it tells you is that neoliberalism or super capitalism is in massive trouble .

When the stakes get higher so does the game we are seeing getting played out today .

When the institutions we rely on to protect us all are coming in to question , the system we live in then you know certain interests have massive concerns .

The law that watered down the ability to protest didn't come without reason in my opinion .

Once you've waged war with those who at this moment in time incapable of defending themselves rather than the good you have done it tends to tell a story .

But good luck with that anyway , once there is a consensus from enough of the majority then that's it .

The people of this country could bring down the monarchy , the government or anybody else who they thought were complicit in making them hungry or unable to pay their way .

It's a fine balance and I suspect the current government may not be best placed to retain that balance with the way currently they are setting about things .

The Conservative Party in power is nothing more than a few hundred members with vested interests from possibly even less people .

It's possibly a fact .
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on January 28, 2022, 10:22:37 pm
Any system is a chain and it's only as strong as its weakest link.

We saw that in the financial crisis, once the weak link broke the rest of the banking system threatened to crumble in a chain reaction.

It's the same in society. If enough of those at the bottom can't get by... Then trouble.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 28, 2022, 10:30:03 pm
All this talk over a party in June 2020,  when it was first reported in June of that year no one gave a shit, why now?

https://order-order.com/2022/01/28/burns-claims-boris-denies-birthday-cake/




Ever heard of Marie Antoinette?

Entitlement and arrogance in the face of real hardship. That's what's coming.

Yep, it's just confirmation of the tory view that law and order is for everyone else.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on January 28, 2022, 10:38:20 pm
All this talk over a party in June 2020,  when it was first reported in June of that year no one gave a shit, why now?

https://order-order.com/2022/01/28/burns-claims-boris-denies-birthday-cake/




Ever heard of Marie Antoinette?

Entitlement and arrogance in the face of real hardship. That's what's coming.

Yep, it's just confirmation of the tory view that law and order is for everyone else.

Certainly looks that way with people like Reese Mogg who think it's all just a game to push the limits of the law as far as they can.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 28, 2022, 11:07:48 pm
All this talk over a party in June 2020,  when it was first reported in June of that year no one gave a shit, why now?

https://order-order.com/2022/01/28/burns-claims-boris-denies-birthday-cake/




Ever heard of Marie Antoinette?

Entitlement and arrogance in the face of real hardship. That's what's coming.

Yep, it's just confirmation of the tory view that law and order is for everyone else.

Certainly looks that way with people like Reese Mogg who think it's all just a game to push the limits of the law as far as they can.


300 years ago in France I'm afraid Jacob would have been amongst the first to have his head removed by way of execution .

That's 300 years ago but none the less that's irrelevant because if you create the same kind of consensus today you'll probably receive what's an applicable punishment today .

Which could be a jail term for a crime against the state and your own vested interests before the people .

Depends on the mood of the people and the government they elect I guess when and if this came to a head .

Jacob in Strangeways on a 10 year stretch is an interesting thought I have to say .
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on January 28, 2022, 11:16:37 pm
I'm still getting over that t**t claiming we now have a "modern" presidential system and if Johnson fails then we would need an election.

Anything. Anything. To achieve his ends.

The swell scum.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 29, 2022, 09:17:44 am
This looks like it could be the cover up to end all cover ups.

The plan, apparently, is to publish all the parts of the Gray report that don't refer to the things that the Met is investigating.

So the redacted report will have no smoking gun.

Then if the Met investigate and report that there is nothing to justify them taking any action, the redacted parts of the Gray report can be shelved as irrelevant.

Is that realistic? Well the Electoral Commission gave the Met a file on illegal use of funds by the Leave side in the 2016 Ref. The Met sat on it for two years, while Johnson was elected, then summarily announced that there was no case to answer. To the best of my knowledge, they have never explained the basis of that decision. And attention moves on.

Here we go. Step 1 of the cover up.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60166997

Step 2 will be Johnson crowing next week that he's released the report in full for all to see and as he said all along, there's nothing to see.

Step 3 will be the Met dragging out their investigation for weeks or months until everyone is bored or has forgotten that revulsion they felt when they first heard about Johnson's partying.

Step 4 will be Cressida Dick saying that while there may have been some contraventions of the letter of the law, there's nothing to warrant prosecutions.

Step 5 is Johnson standing up in Parliament saying "I told you all along that I'd been honest on this point. I've been entirely vindicated. But it's clear that there was a culture among staff where the rules were flouted, and I'm disgusted at that. I have sacked several of my No10 team."


Just watch them try to roll it out.

Everyone who applies their brain to this will know it is b*llocks.

But that's not what matters. Johnson is a new breed of politician. We've never had his like before. He has absolutely zero capacity for shame. All that matters to him is power. It doesn't matter to him if people know he's a lying bas**rd. What matters is whether they support him.

If this plan rolls out and he is still supported by a large enough number of voters, he might well survive. And then our democracy truly is off the edge of the cliff.

Step 1a is in place.
Gray is submitting a redacted report. Deputy Editor of Sky News says he's been informed that Gray will NOT be submitting an unredacted version for publication once the police investigation is over.

So, on police instruction, all the most sensitive parts of Gray's report will now never be published. It is 100% the choice of Cressida Dick what the public and Parliament get to see. That gives her a clear path to Step 4.

This stinks to high heaven. And they aren't even trying to hide what they are doing. Because, probably rightly, they think that not enough people care enough.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on January 29, 2022, 09:23:13 am
Don't vote for the Tories again then.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: albie on January 29, 2022, 09:52:53 am
Step 4 is more likely to be token punishment of those who attended by giving them a fixed penalty fine.

Dick will then be able to conclude the investigation by pointing to the outcome for attendees, while keeping the redacted content from Sue Gray under wraps.

What we need now is a leak of the original report, as a public interest disclosure.
If that happens after Dick has given her whitewash, Bozo will then claim no knowledge of any attempt to cover the traces.

Tinpot doesn't do it justice.......anybody who can't see through this just does not want to look at what is in front of them.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on January 29, 2022, 09:58:41 am
All this talk over a party in June 2020,  when it was first reported in June of that year no one gave a shit, why now?

https://order-order.com/2022/01/28/burns-claims-boris-denies-birthday-cake/




Because the Prime Minister hadn't lied to Parliament about it then, that's why.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 29, 2022, 10:05:37 am
Albie.

Actually yes, there will have to be someone slapped with a fixed penalty in Step 4.

Even better if they can really kebab a civil servant for obstructing the course of justice and take them to trial. That will then give them a plausible reason why they demanded redactions in the Gray Report.

Frank Underwood and his team could not have played this one any better.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 29, 2022, 10:09:36 am
All this talk over a party in June 2020,  when it was first reported in June of that year no one gave a shit, why now?

https://order-order.com/2022/01/28/burns-claims-boris-denies-birthday-cake/




Because the Prime Minister hadn't lied to Parliament about it then, that's why.

Precisely.

If there's been one 5 minute cutting and sharing of a birthday cake with 2-3 people there in the office, no-one would have blinked an eye.

It's the scale of the socialising that first brought on the attention.

And then, the oldest truism in politics kicks in. It's not the original crime that gets you in big trouble. It's the crimes you commit in the cover up.

Johnson repeatedly lied to Parliament on this. No senior politician in history has ever been proven to have lied to Parliament and kept their job. 
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 29, 2022, 10:10:02 am
This looks like it could be the cover up to end all cover ups.

The plan, apparently, is to publish all the parts of the Gray report that don't refer to the things that the Met is investigating.

So the redacted report will have no smoking gun.

Then if the Met investigate and report that there is nothing to justify them taking any action, the redacted parts of the Gray report can be shelved as irrelevant.

Is that realistic? Well the Electoral Commission gave the Met a file on illegal use of funds by the Leave side in the 2016 Ref. The Met sat on it for two years, while Johnson was elected, then summarily announced that there was no case to answer. To the best of my knowledge, they have never explained the basis of that decision. And attention moves on.

Here we go. Step 1 of the cover up.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60166997

Step 2 will be Johnson crowing next week that he's released the report in full for all to see and as he said all along, there's nothing to see.

Step 3 will be the Met dragging out their investigation for weeks or months until everyone is bored or has forgotten that revulsion they felt when they first heard about Johnson's partying.

Step 4 will be Cressida Dick saying that while there may have been some contraventions of the letter of the law, there's nothing to warrant prosecutions.

Step 5 is Johnson standing up in Parliament saying "I told you all along that I'd been honest on this point. I've been entirely vindicated. But it's clear that there was a culture among staff where the rules were flouted, and I'm disgusted at that. I have sacked several of my No10 team."


Just watch them try to roll it out.

Everyone who applies their brain to this will know it is b*llocks.

But that's not what matters. Johnson is a new breed of politician. We've never had his like before. He has absolutely zero capacity for shame. All that matters to him is power. It doesn't matter to him if people know he's a lying bas**rd. What matters is whether they support him.

If this plan rolls out and he is still supported by a large enough number of voters, he might well survive. And then our democracy truly is off the edge of the cliff.

Step 1a is in place.
Gray is submitting a redacted report. Deputy Editor of Sky News says he's been informed that Gray will NOT be submitting an unredacted version for publication once the police investigation is over.

So, on police instruction, all the most sensitive parts of Gray's report will now never be published. It is 100% the choice of Cressida Dick what the public and Parliament get to see. That gives her a clear path to Step 4.

This stinks to high heaven. And they aren't even trying to hide what they are doing. Because, probably rightly, they think that not enough people care enough.

The question is Billy why do many people not care or simply shrug their  shoulders ?

Why have standards in public office fallen so low and are accepted by many ?

Interested to hear what you think .

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: albie on January 29, 2022, 10:13:21 am
It looks very much like a conspiracy to pervert the course of justice, which in a functioning democracy would lead to heavy penalties, exclusion from public life, and structural reforms to prevent any recurrence.

Unfortunately, it is clear that the UK is far from a functioning democracy any more....all pretense is just for show, to pull the wool over those eager to be deceived.

This is why BB saying don't vote Tory misses the point, it is the establishment at work, the Tories are a subset, an interest group within that power structure.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 29, 2022, 10:15:19 am
Tyke.

Because he got Brexit done. He was their man against the bas**rd foreigners and the Elite. He took back control.

Like I keep telling you, this isn't old style normal politics, where policies and reasoned arguments matter. It's a Culture War. If you don't get that, you'll never understand Johnson or his supporters in here or outside.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 29, 2022, 10:22:05 am
100% Albie.

This is a massive step on the road to authoritarianism.

Democracies don't suddenly stop existing. You don't go to bed one night in a democracy and wake the next morning with all your leaders wearing jackboots and demanding we all line up to swear allegiance to the Generalissimo.

They fall apart one brick at a time. When corruption and illegality stop being punished. And people with ambition and no principles realise that there is no incentive to do the right thing anymore. That there's a direct path to winning and retaining power by breaking the rules.

You keep your trappings. The elections and the veneer of processes. But once the threat of sanction for breaking the rules had gone, those trappings mean nothing. Real power lies with those who are vicious enough to seize and wield it.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 29, 2022, 10:26:55 am
The redacted report gets released, we wait for the police report and action ....... there will then be no reason why the full Grey report should not be released the same day.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 29, 2022, 10:30:14 am
There's no reason why that shouldn't happen SR.

But Sky News are reporting that Gray has no intention of submitting an unredacted report.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on January 29, 2022, 10:43:44 am
Dick is head of Johnsons Gestapo!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 29, 2022, 11:09:57 am
Tyke.

Because he got Brexit done. He was their man against the bas**rd foreigners and the Elite. He took back control.

Like I keep telling you, this isn't old style normal politics, where policies and reasoned arguments matter. It's a Culture War. If you don't get that, you'll never understand Johnson or his supporters in here or outside.

When you say Culture War I see it as a Class War personally .

Thats what it is to me , the Tories waging war against minority groups who aren't capable of defending themselves .

Examples would be the unemployed , asylum seekers etc etc .

You could argue Brexit to a certain extent was a symptom of a Class War , in relatively basic terms the less well paid in society stuck it up the middle classes when they were given the opportunity to do so .

The Labour Party too are complicit because they've courted the middle class vote above the working class one it could be argued .

For some reason class isn't to be spoken about so culture replaces it for what ever reason in my opinion .

But there's no doubt in my mind it's a Class War and it's gone on since time began .

It's certainly not a new thing in my opinion .
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on January 29, 2022, 12:08:27 pm
Thing is, everyone in their right mind knows that this partying inquest has blown over any form of reasonable proportion simply for political reasons, and it has been amplified for the simple reason that the opposition has absolutely nothing going for it and can only raise its own popularity by lowering the oppositions.

Put it this way, how many of you Labour lot would have condemned a Labour government so vehemently for doing the same thing?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: glosterred on January 29, 2022, 12:12:03 pm
Thing is, everyone in their right mind knows that this partying inquest has blown over any form of reasonable proportion simply for political reasons, and it has been amplified for the simple reason that the opposition has absolutely nothing going for it and can only raise its own popularity by lowering the oppositions.

Put it this way, how many of you Labour lot would have condemned a Labour government so vehemently for doing the same thing?

My guess none, but watch them Come on here and say otherwise


Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on January 29, 2022, 12:19:11 pm
Thing is, everyone in their right mind knows that this partying inquest has blown over any form of reasonable proportion simply for political reasons, and it has been amplified for the simple reason that the opposition has absolutely nothing going for it and can only raise its own popularity by lowering the oppositions.

Put it this way, how many of you Labour lot would have condemned a Labour government so vehemently for doing the same thing?

I think you will find quite a lot, if not all, of the 'Labour lot' condemned Blair over the Iraq invasion, at the time and ever since.

I think you will also find that some Johnson supporters have never criticised him or his actions - and never will. Which tells you more about them than it does him.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on January 29, 2022, 12:19:25 pm
Thing is, everyone in their right mind knows that this partying inquest has blown over any form of reasonable proportion simply for political reasons, and it has been amplified for the simple reason that the opposition has absolutely nothing going for it and can only raise its own popularity by lowering the oppositions.

Put it this way, how many of you Labour lot would have condemned a Labour government so vehemently for doing the same thing?

My guess none, but watch them Come on here and say otherwise




You guess wrong, and I will come on here and say otherwise, I see that Tom Hugenant has said he will go for leader in a contest, that would be an excellent choice for them as leader, bad news for Labour, but at the moment I want a serious PM, not an idiot that plays to his crowd
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on January 29, 2022, 12:20:31 pm
Thing is, everyone in their right mind knows that this partying inquest has blown over any form of reasonable proportion simply for political reasons, and it has been amplified for the simple reason that the opposition has absolutely nothing going for it and can only raise its own popularity by lowering the oppositions.

Put it this way, how many of you Labour lot would have condemned a Labour government so vehemently for doing the same thing?

My guess none, but watch them Come on here and say otherwise



Agree, but how many of them will be in their right mind?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on January 29, 2022, 01:36:25 pm
All this talk over a party in June 2020,  when it was first reported in June of that year no one gave a shit, why now?

https://order-order.com/2022/01/28/burns-claims-boris-denies-birthday-cake/




Ever heard of Marie Antoinette?

Entitlement and arrogance in the face of real hardship. That's what's coming.
I seem to have read somewhere that Her words were translated incorrectly during the bread shortage, rather than the alleged let them eat cake, it was let them eat brioche, a type of sweet bread. Just saying
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 29, 2022, 01:53:05 pm
Well here we are in politics 2022.

The likes of BB and his clique are so closed off to the concept of normal behaviour in politics that they are certain, just certain that folk on the other side would accept without criticism a leader who:

1) Chose the side of the referendum campaign to support based purely on how it would suit his career.
2) Lied repeatedly in the referendum campaign that followed.
3) Voted against the Brexit deal in order to bring down the PM, replaced her then signed an near identical Brexit deal.
4) Illegally prorogues Parliament and lied to the Queen.
5) Lied about the deal he'd signed repeatedly during the Election campaign.
6) Vanished for a month after the Election to sort out his divorce while COVID got hold.
7) Returned making stupid boasts about shaking hands on COVID wards as we started on a wave that killed nearly 70,000 people in a couple of months.
8) Delayed action on the second lockdown, leading to maybe 40,000 avoidable deaths and a far longer lockdown with much greater economic damage when it finally did come.
9) Regularly held social events at work during all this, while the rest of us were sticking to the spirit and the letter of the law.
10) Lied about this repeatedly in Parliament when faced with what he'd done.

You do have to wonder about the soul of someone who not only cannot find it in them to mumble a word of criticism about that, but assumes that everyone else is as morally bankrupt as them, and wouldn't criticise someone closer to their political stance who acted like that. Must be a barren, parched landscape.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on January 29, 2022, 06:22:24 pm
Well here we are in politics 2022.

The likes of BB and his clique are so closed off to the concept of normal behaviour in politics that they are certain, just certain that folk on the other side would accept without criticism a leader who:

1) Chose the side of the referendum campaign to support based purely on how it would suit his career.
2) Lied repeatedly in the referendum campaign that followed.
3) Voted against the Brexit deal in order to bring down the PM, replaced her then signed an near identical Brexit deal.
4) Illegally prorogues Parliament and lied to the Queen.
5) Lied about the deal he'd signed repeatedly during the Election campaign.
6) Vanished for a month after the Election to sort out his divorce while COVID got hold.
7) Returned making stupid boasts about shaking hands on COVID wards as we started on a wave that killed nearly 70,000 people in a couple of months.
8) Delayed action on the second lockdown, leading to maybe 40,000 avoidable deaths and a far longer lockdown with much greater economic damage when it finally did come.
9) Regularly held social events at work during all this, while the rest of us were sticking to the spirit and the letter of the law.
10) Lied about this repeatedly in Parliament when faced with what he'd done.

You do have to wonder about the soul of someone who not only cannot find it in them to mumble a word of criticism about that, but assumes that everyone else is as morally bankrupt as them, and wouldn't criticise someone closer to their political stance who acted like that. Must be a barren, parched landscape.

And that is clear confirmation that at least one Labour supporter has absolutely nothing good to say about his own party and can only try to raise its popularity by talking b*llocks about non-labour voters.

You and the Labour party belong to each other, Billy lad.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 29, 2022, 07:06:53 pm
BB.

You have literally, on numerous occasions defended your refusal ever to criticise Johnson by regaling us with how shit you think Starmer is.

If you are a WUM, you're f**king useless. If you are genuinely trying to contribute to a discussion, you're a hypocrite.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on January 29, 2022, 07:19:23 pm
BST. Every discussion requires answers. Now if you want to actually answer my post for once, instead of veering off into your usual path of drivel I'll respond to you. If not, I'll just ignore you. Like I said a while back, there's no point talking to you because no matter what I say it'll be wrong in your one-sided, biased and bent view.

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 29, 2022, 07:34:03 pm
Bunter may well wriggle off the noose around his neck as the establishment which includes the Met rally round .

I think almost everyone knew that was always possible .

However such things don't exist at the ballot box when Bunter has to face the electorate .

I'd kindly suggest that understandably people are going to be angry and frustrated but the real day of reckoning is yet to come .

At 10pm on election night stock up with popcorn and have the fridge full of beer and settle down to watch reality play out .

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: albie on January 29, 2022, 08:04:22 pm
On the matter of class war or culture war, the answer is surely that it is both.

The Tories have always pursued policies that favour the wealthy.
In doing so, the gains that come to to those who have resources, be it property or other assets, are at the cost to those without resources.

That is class war.
The political strategy is to disguise it from those who are exploited to make it happen.

This is where culture wars come in....as a means to that end.
The marketing of regressive political policies is hidden (and justified) by use of cultural dog whistles. Blaming all sorts of social issues on immigration without evidence is a great example of this in action.

Twas ever thus, but the means to exploit these divisions has changed, with social media giving a booster platform....Q'anon anyone!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 29, 2022, 08:20:24 pm
On the matter of class war or culture war, the answer is surely that it is both.

The Tories have always pursued policies that favour the wealthy.
In doing so, the gains that come to to those who have resources, be it property or other assets, are at the cost to those without resources.

That is class war.
The political strategy is to disguise it from those who are exploited to make it happen.

This is where culture wars come in....as a means to that end.
The marketing of regressive political policies is hidden (and justified) by use of cultural dog whistles. Blaming all sorts of social issues on immigration without evidence is a great example of this in action.

Twas ever thus, but the means to exploit these divisions has changed, with social media giving a booster platform....Q'anon anyone!

One of the greatest issues I've found is that there are many people in this country who love to stand on the hands of those one rung or two below them on the social ladder so to speak .

Anytime anybody is seen to receive something for nothing it seems to rankle with those who aren't in need of any help what so ever .

Why I don't know because almost all of us have received something that fell our way and we prospered because of it .

I can still remember 20 years ago when I was an active trade union rep walking in to one of our old gaffers tearing a strip off a young lad who was receiving Working Tax Credits under the Blair government .

The old in my day " we managed with what we earned " rhetoric .

"Quite right I said you did  but then again you went on strike for a week and ended up with a 20% pay rise didn't you " .

" We can always return to those times can't we "

He mumbled something and walked away .

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 29, 2022, 10:03:21 pm
Christopher Chope an MP with integrity.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: albie on January 29, 2022, 11:19:21 pm
Christopher Chope an MP with integrity.

Chope is a proper barmpot, if you look at his form down the years;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Chope

The company you keep, and all that.
Too weird for many Tories, and that's going some!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 29, 2022, 11:36:11 pm
I knew soon after I posted I should have qualified my support to this topic only Albie.

And on another topic I may well be wrong in saying Andrew and his lawyers are not stupid enough to fight his case in the US, they may well be. (I couldn't find where we discussed this so apologies for diverting this topic)
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 30, 2022, 12:17:11 am
This should be handed to someone independent of government, a retired judge with powers to compel witnesses to give evidence and Johnson should stand aside while the matter is resolved.

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 30, 2022, 11:29:56 am
It's a toss up between Cummings and Arcuri as to who hates him the most.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 31, 2022, 03:13:10 pm
So, general summary out. I’ve had a read of the 12 page doc. No names crucially. There is mention of the senior support to the PM having too much responsibility? Which has to be addressed immediately.
Also mention of blurred lines of leadership and responsibility.
A shroud of doubt has been sown over responsibility and accountability in no10.
But the book always stops at the top. The PM sets the tone .
Let’s see what he says at 3-30. I’m expecting bluster and continued smokescreens.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: rich1471 on January 31, 2022, 03:21:36 pm
He said if the report shows a lack of leadership he would resign ,now let's see who he blames for this , everyone except himself probably,he will now say let's see what the police says ,he's as slippery as a snake
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 31, 2022, 03:38:14 pm
Oh dear.
He is hiding behind the report.
“I get it and I will fix it.”
The damage has been done I’m afraid Bojo.
He is speaking to Putin later today who will do his best not to laugh at Bojo.
On the world stage, Our PM has to be seen as a person of integrity, trust and leadership. He isn’t.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 31, 2022, 03:38:23 pm
He lied to Parliament about the party in his private flat. Open and shut case.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on January 31, 2022, 03:38:42 pm
Ha HAS to go
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 31, 2022, 03:41:19 pm
Rishi and priti both nodding while stabber lays into Bojo.
Interesting
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfcdrfc on January 31, 2022, 03:43:14 pm
Thing is, everyone in their right mind knows that this partying inquest has blown over any form of reasonable proportion simply for political reasons, and it has been amplified for the simple reason that the opposition has absolutely nothing going for it and can only raise its own popularity by lowering the oppositions.

Put it this way, how many of you Labour lot would have condemned a Labour government so vehemently for doing the same thing?

f**k me, are you capable of anything other than ifs buts or maybes?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 31, 2022, 03:45:57 pm
Bojo hits back with the Jimmy saville accusation.
I’ll get the popcorn.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 31, 2022, 03:46:55 pm
This looks like it could be the cover up to end all cover ups.

The plan, apparently, is to publish all the parts of the Gray report that don't refer to the things that the Met is investigating.

So the redacted report will have no smoking gun.

Then if the Met investigate and report that there is nothing to justify them taking any action, the redacted parts of the Gray report can be shelved as irrelevant.

Is that realistic? Well the Electoral Commission gave the Met a file on illegal use of funds by the Leave side in the 2016 Ref. The Met sat on it for two years, while Johnson was elected, then summarily announced that there was no case to answer. To the best of my knowledge, they have never explained the basis of that decision. And attention moves on.

Here we go. Step 1 of the cover up.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60166997

Step 2 will be Johnson crowing next week that he's released the report in full for all to see and as he said all along, there's nothing to see.

Step 3 will be the Met dragging out their investigation for weeks or months until everyone is bored or has forgotten that revulsion they felt when they first heard about Johnson's partying.

Step 4 will be Cressida Dick saying that while there may have been some contraventions of the letter of the law, there's nothing to warrant prosecutions.

Step 5 is Johnson standing up in Parliament saying "I told you all along that I'd been honest on this point. I've been entirely vindicated. But it's clear that there was a culture among staff where the rules were flouted, and I'm disgusted at that. I have sacked several of my No10 team."


Just watch them try to roll it out.

Everyone who applies their brain to this will know it is b*llocks.

But that's not what matters. Johnson is a new breed of politician. We've never had his like before. He has absolutely zero capacity for shame. All that matters to him is power. It doesn't matter to him if people know he's a lying bas**rd. What matters is whether they support him.

If this plan rolls out and he is still supported by a large enough number of voters, he might well survive. And then our democracy truly is off the edge of the cliff.

He's just activated Step 2. He's said in Parliament that Starmer's criticisms are invalid because Sue Gray's report doesn't support them.

It's happening right in front of our eyes.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 31, 2022, 03:48:39 pm
Wow. Theresa May now weighing in.
And he totally side swipes the question which was very very key.
His job, right there, in a single question.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 31, 2022, 03:49:07 pm
He's also just lied three times in Parliament again.

1) That the Govt is building 40 new hospitals.
2) That if we were in the EU medicines agency, we wouldn't have been able to run our own vaccine programme.
3) That Corbyn would have taken us out of NATO.


Every one a lie. He is totally out of control.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 31, 2022, 03:55:11 pm
BlackFord get out! Oh, maybe not.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 31, 2022, 03:56:23 pm
He leaves anyway. Dramatic stuff.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on January 31, 2022, 03:56:36 pm
Andrew Mitchell sticking the boot in too.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 31, 2022, 03:59:08 pm
I suspect there will be some employees of downing st becoming very public scapegoats over this. Bojo speaks like he already knows this.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 31, 2022, 04:09:19 pm
Another lie. He assured the house he would publish the report in full when it is released. ( now after the police enquiry) He is now not so sure?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 31, 2022, 04:14:30 pm
He's just doubled down on his previous lie that no party occurred in his own flat.

Only four possible conclusions:

1) He's just signed his own P45.
2) He knows he's lying and the facts will come out but knows that his party won't make him step down for lying in Parliament.
3) He knows that the Met are going to kick over the traces and that an unredacted Gray report will never emerge, so the truth can be ignored.
4) He's so far deranged, he doesn't care if he lies or not.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on January 31, 2022, 04:19:21 pm
David Davies sat on the steps next to Teresa May, looks like they're having an interesting chat.. ;)
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on January 31, 2022, 04:19:45 pm
A member of the opposition touched on offences such as misconduct in a public office and perverting the cse of justice.
He rejected her comments.
He would do wise to take note.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 31, 2022, 04:48:45 pm
Here's the key part of the Gray report.

Paragraph 13.

Quote
At the request of the police I have provided the material compiled in the course of
my investigation relevant to the gatherings that they are now investigating. I have
also been asked to retain all the other information collected in the course of this
work, which I have confirmed that I will do. I will therefore ensure the secure
storage and safekeeping of all the information gathered until such time as it may
be required further. I will not be circulating the information internally within
government,
it has been provided in confidence to the Cabinet Office investigation
team and it is important that this confidence is maintained to protect the integrity of
the process.

To understand this, you have to realise where the cover up now is.

Gray is saying that she has more information than in included in this report. But because Dick has effectively instructed her not to release it, that information is not in the public domain.

Here's the key thing.

If Dick decides that there will be no action taken against Johnson, there is no legal mechanisms whereby Gray on her own can release that information.

She can't pipe up and say "Here's the full report!" on her own initiative.

She can only submit a full and unredacted report if the Govt invite her to.

There is absolutely f**k all chance of Johnson ever doing that. He mumbled today "we'll see when the time comes what we can publish" when asked about that. Which basically means "f**k off."

What Gray is doing here is screaming out of the page. She's saying "More information exists. When Dick and Johnson take steps to ensure that doesn't see the light of day, you will KNOW how damning when. Why wouldn't they release it if it was harmless? When they do refuse to release it, don't let this drop. Hound the bas**rd every time he opens his mouth. Ask him every day why he is not releasing it."
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Colin C No.3 on January 31, 2022, 04:57:45 pm
But you’ll just get the usual bluster & blithering.

This ba***rd is bomb proof!!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 31, 2022, 05:02:17 pm
At the bottom line, he is only bomb proof if enough voters don't care.

If voters refuse to back him, the Tory party will do away with him.

If voters don't refuse to back him, he'll be right in his judgement that he can lie every time he opens his mouth and it doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Colin C No.3 on January 31, 2022, 05:26:22 pm
Is Graham Brady likely to receive 54 letters given we were led to believe disgruntled Tories were waiting for Gray’s report to hang Boris out to dry?

Now the full report has been kicked into the long grass by the Met, yet again ‘Britains answer’ to Donald Trump looks to have been let off the hook.

Apologies for the use of so many idiom’s.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on January 31, 2022, 05:35:46 pm
It’s time that our MP’s can call out a lier for what they are rather than the lier hide behind protocol, well done the leader of the SNP for calling him out
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: rtid88 on January 31, 2022, 06:05:04 pm
But you’ll just get the usual bluster & blithering.

This ba***rd is bomb proof!!

I think Guy Fawkes might be the only answer!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 31, 2022, 06:54:02 pm
Bojo hits back with the Jimmy saville accusation.
I’ll get the popcorn.
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-britain-savile-idUSL1N2RP200
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 31, 2022, 07:01:24 pm
Finest speech Starmer's made yet , absolutely nailed it .

Even the Tories knew he was right on the money , they had to sit and take it because Bunter can't be defended anymore or at least defended in a way that's credible .
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on January 31, 2022, 07:02:22 pm
Bojo hits back with the Jimmy saville accusation.
I’ll get the popcorn.
https://www.reuters.com/article/factcheck-britain-savile-idUSL1N2RP200

I thought it was just a spur of the moment comment cos he was mad, it was actually a pre prepared comment that his advisors advised him not to use, massive own goal in my opinion and shows him for who he really is
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on January 31, 2022, 07:07:30 pm
Finest speech Starmer's made yet , absolutely nailed it .

Even the Tories knew he was right on the money , they had to sit and take it because Bunter can't be defended anymore or at least defended in a way that's credible .

Raab sat there as usually, like a nodding dog, Sunak slithered off pretty sharpish, May straight for the throat seeking revenge, one of the Red Wall Tory’s asking him if he thinks he’s a fool. It was brutal for Johnson, if the 54 letters are not in this week, they’ll never go in, and the Conservative party is dead. Starmer doesn’t have to do anything dramatic to be the next PM if Johnson wriggles out of this, he just has to give Johnson more rope to hang himself and the Tory’s
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on January 31, 2022, 07:12:13 pm
At the bottom line, he is only bomb proof if enough voters don't care.

If voters refuse to back him, the Tory party will do away with him.

If voters don't refuse to back him, he'll be right in his judgement that he can lie every time he opens his mouth and it doesn't matter.

Bernard Jenkin dropped a very unsubtle hint when he said that Johnson would be judged upon results in the next few months.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on January 31, 2022, 07:19:00 pm
So 'the report' turned out to be a five page brief but nonetheless was damning.

We're back to waiting for the full report, which looks like it will take quite sometime. It'll be a wonder if it ever fully sees the light of day. Delay, delay, delay and hope the media and the public will tire of it.

As Glyn points out if the letters don't go in now, they won't... Unless the local elections are a disaster. That might push things again.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on January 31, 2022, 07:35:55 pm
So in 2 months we have:

There were no parties, the rules were followed
I am furious to discover there were parties
I was at a party but I didn't know it was a party
No one told me I'd repeatedly said parties were against rules
Police are investigating a party hosted in my flat

And don't forget the police have 300 photos of these 'non-parties'

How will anyone ever take him seriously again?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on January 31, 2022, 07:38:12 pm
Here's the key part of the Gray report.

Paragraph 13.

Quote
At the request of the police I have provided the material compiled in the course of
my investigation relevant to the gatherings that they are now investigating. I have
also been asked to retain all the other information collected in the course of this
work, which I have confirmed that I will do. I will therefore ensure the secure
storage and safekeeping of all the information gathered until such time as it may
be required further. I will not be circulating the information internally within
government,
it has been provided in confidence to the Cabinet Office investigation
team and it is important that this confidence is maintained to protect the integrity of
the process.

To understand this, you have to realise where the cover up now is.

Gray is saying that she has more information than in included in this report. But because Dick has effectively instructed her not to release it, that information is not in the public domain.

Here's the key thing.

If Dick decides that there will be no action taken against Johnson, there is no legal mechanisms whereby Gray on her own can release that information.

She can't pipe up and say "Here's the full report!" on her own initiative.

She can only submit a full and unredacted report if the Govt invite her to.

There is absolutely f**k all chance of Johnson ever doing that. He mumbled today "we'll see when the time comes what we can publish" when asked about that. Which basically means "f**k off."

What Gray is doing here is screaming out of the page. She's saying "More information exists. When Dick and Johnson take steps to ensure that doesn't see the light of day, you will KNOW how damning when. Why wouldn't they release it if it was harmless? When they do refuse to release it, don't let this drop. Hound the bas**rd every time he opens his mouth. Ask him every day why he is not releasing it."

OK, things are developing quickly.

If Johnson was happy to have the full Gray Report published, he would have said so unequivocally in the House today. That would have sounded confident. Instead he mumbled about "seeing what could be published when the time comes".

No10 has now announced they will publish the full report after the Met investigation. Apparently Tory MPs have been threatening to force a no confidence vote now if they didn't get that promise.

He's winging it. He's lost control of the agenda now and he's looking at day-to-day survival. This development really feels like the net closing.

Tory MPs want him out now because they know he is electorally likely to be a liability. But they also know they need proof of just what a Kitson he's been. Otherwise those who move against him will be called traitors by the Johnson supporters. So they need to get the Gray evidence out in the open. Then they can strike. And he's just given in to that. Saved himself today but massively weakened himself down the line.

That's what happens when a career of lying finally catches up with you. Eventually, you run out of options.

His only hope now is that, in the time he's just won, something turns up that increases his popularity with voters.

Expect top of the head populist policies to be sprayed out like cow shit from a muck spreader.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 31, 2022, 07:47:08 pm
What I want to know is how come you get slung out of parliament for the day for calling Bunter a liar so he can carry on lying ?

 :facepalm: :facepalm: :facepalm:
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on January 31, 2022, 07:52:39 pm
Lol!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 31, 2022, 07:53:24 pm
Here's the key part of the Gray report.

Paragraph 13.

Quote
At the request of the police I have provided the material compiled in the course of
my investigation relevant to the gatherings that they are now investigating. I have
also been asked to retain all the other information collected in the course of this
work, which I have confirmed that I will do. I will therefore ensure the secure
storage and safekeeping of all the information gathered until such time as it may
be required further. I will not be circulating the information internally within
government,
it has been provided in confidence to the Cabinet Office investigation
team and it is important that this confidence is maintained to protect the integrity of
the process.

To understand this, you have to realise where the cover up now is.

Gray is saying that she has more information than in included in this report. But because Dick has effectively instructed her not to release it, that information is not in the public domain.

Here's the key thing.

If Dick decides that there will be no action taken against Johnson, there is no legal mechanisms whereby Gray on her own can release that information.

She can't pipe up and say "Here's the full report!" on her own initiative.

She can only submit a full and unredacted report if the Govt invite her to.

There is absolutely f**k all chance of Johnson ever doing that. He mumbled today "we'll see when the time comes what we can publish" when asked about that. Which basically means "f**k off."

What Gray is doing here is screaming out of the page. She's saying "More information exists. When Dick and Johnson take steps to ensure that doesn't see the light of day, you will KNOW how damning when. Why wouldn't they release it if it was harmless? When they do refuse to release it, don't let this drop. Hound the bas**rd every time he opens his mouth. Ask him every day why he is not releasing it."

OK, things are developing quickly.

If Johnson was happy to have the full Gray Report published, he would have said so unequivocally in the House today. That would have sounded confident. Instead he mumbled about "seeing what could be published when the time comes".

No10 has now announced they will publish the full report after the Met investigation. Apparently Tory MPs have been threatening to force a no confidence vote now if they didn't get that promise.

He's winging it. He's lost control of the agenda now and he's looking at day-to-day survival. This development really feels like the net closing.

Tory MPs want him out now because they know he is electorally likely to be a liability. But they also know they need proof of just what a Kitson he's been. Otherwise those who move against him will be called traitors by the Johnson supporters. So they need to get the Gray evidence out in the open. Then they can strike. And he's just given in to that. Saved himself today but massively weakened himself down the line.

That's what happens when a career of lying finally catches up with you. Eventually, you run out of options.

His only hope now is that, in the time he's just won, something turns up that increases his popularity with voters.

Expect top of the head populist policies to be sprayed out like cow shit from a muck spreader.

The key thing to remember Billy is Bunter's biggest crime to these rogues sat behind him is the fact they are heading for a battering at the next election and nowt to do with what he's done .
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on January 31, 2022, 07:55:39 pm
Here's the key part of the Gray report.

Paragraph 13.

Quote
At the request of the police I have provided the material compiled in the course of
my investigation relevant to the gatherings that they are now investigating. I have
also been asked to retain all the other information collected in the course of this
work, which I have confirmed that I will do. I will therefore ensure the secure
storage and safekeeping of all the information gathered until such time as it may
be required further. I will not be circulating the information internally within
government,
it has been provided in confidence to the Cabinet Office investigation
team and it is important that this confidence is maintained to protect the integrity of
the process.

To understand this, you have to realise where the cover up now is.

Gray is saying that she has more information than in included in this report. But because Dick has effectively instructed her not to release it, that information is not in the public domain.

Here's the key thing.

If Dick decides that there will be no action taken against Johnson, there is no legal mechanisms whereby Gray on her own can release that information.

She can't pipe up and say "Here's the full report!" on her own initiative.

She can only submit a full and unredacted report if the Govt invite her to.

There is absolutely f**k all chance of Johnson ever doing that. He mumbled today "we'll see when the time comes what we can publish" when asked about that. Which basically means "f**k off."

What Gray is doing here is screaming out of the page. She's saying "More information exists. When Dick and Johnson take steps to ensure that doesn't see the light of day, you will KNOW how damning when. Why wouldn't they release it if it was harmless? When they do refuse to release it, don't let this drop. Hound the bas**rd every time he opens his mouth. Ask him every day why he is not releasing it."

OK, things are developing quickly.

If Johnson was happy to have the full Gray Report published, he would have said so unequivocally in the House today. That would have sounded confident. Instead he mumbled about "seeing what could be published when the time comes".

No10 has now announced they will publish the full report after the Met investigation. Apparently Tory MPs have been threatening to force a no confidence vote now if they didn't get that promise.

He's winging it. He's lost control of the agenda now and he's looking at day-to-day survival. This development really feels like the net closing.

Tory MPs want him out now because they know he is electorally likely to be a liability. But they also know they need proof of just what a Kitson he's been. Otherwise those who move against him will be called traitors by the Johnson supporters. So they need to get the Gray evidence out in the open. Then they can strike. And he's just given in to that. Saved himself today but massively weakened himself down the line.

That's what happens when a career of lying finally catches up with you. Eventually, you run out of options.

His only hope now is that, in the time he's just won, something turns up that increases his popularity with voters.

Expect top of the head populist policies to be sprayed out like cow shit from a muck spreader.


What he’s actually said is when the met have finished their investigation, he will ask Sue Gray to UPDATE her report, so that report as of today will most likely not be the report that will be published
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Donnywolf on January 31, 2022, 08:06:38 pm
Don't think there is a hope in hell that IF 54 letters did go in ..... that half the Tory MPs 180 ish would support the no confidence motion

That would be another 126 on top of the 54 roughly ... he'll survive to lie another day or as I often repeat on Twitter he will be able to sing the chorus of his favourite song "The Boxer" by Simon and Garfunkel

LIE LIE LIE

LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE LIE

LIE LIE LIE
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: rich1471 on January 31, 2022, 08:14:08 pm
Lol!
It reminded me of Dennis Skinner the way he would not retract what he said to Boris
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 31, 2022, 08:25:15 pm
No security footage of the back yard? I thought there may be some of that around?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on January 31, 2022, 08:35:19 pm
The Jimmy Saville retort from Bunter was desperate with Starmer still with his foot on his throat .

His last card played and one with no value given practically everybody whose had some kind of education knows the facts surrounding Starmer and the Saville case .

I've thought he might wriggle off the hook over the weekend but tonight I firmly believe he's toast and run out of road .

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on January 31, 2022, 08:58:06 pm
When he said he was going to sort out the drinking culture at work from today, did he think it was wise to let Nadine Dorries appear on C4 news tonight off her tits?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tommy toes on January 31, 2022, 09:11:34 pm
Driving home earlier listening to 5 live, the presenter said they'd received plenty of emails supporting Johnson.
F**k me, Carrie and Rees-Mogg must have loads of email addresses.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on January 31, 2022, 09:12:13 pm
The Jimmy Saville retort from Bunter was desperate with Starmer still with his foot on his throat .

His last card played and one with no value given practically everybody whose had some kind of education knows the facts surrounding Starmer and the Saville case .

I've thought he might wriggle off the hook over the weekend but tonight I firmly believe he's toast and run out of road .



He also said the Labour front bench were taking drugs (with Michael Gove sat next to him) and that crime had fallen by 14% under his leadership (it hasn't its risen by 14% - ONS figures last week)

Expect more of this. He is just going to lie as much as he possibly can to appease his base knowing it what they want to hear - and that he can't be touched.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 31, 2022, 09:16:49 pm
C4 Nadine Dorries

https://twitter.com/Channel4News/status/1488237534668861454?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: mugnapper on January 31, 2022, 09:25:28 pm
I think the Tories have a bit of cheek bringing Jimmy Saville up.
It was Thatcher who in 1988 placed him in charge of reforms at Stoke Mandeville hospital, despite him having no qualifications for such a role.
It was Thatcher who knighted him.
And it was Norman Tebbit who said after Saville’s crimes had become public knowledge ‘Jimmy was an odd fellow but did a great deal of good, as well as wrong. You have to look at both sides of the ledger’.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 31, 2022, 10:03:42 pm
Where will the tory party glean any moral authority from, they threw the compass overboard when they elected johnson as leader and are now reaping the rewards of that action. They have a party hostile to itself and a public that is outraged.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: big fat yorkshire pudding on January 31, 2022, 10:27:34 pm
Again he got it wrong. The tone was not to attack the opposition, it should be to accept some blame and be adamant you will sort it out.

But to say you'll do it then go on the attack is weak and desperate.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on January 31, 2022, 10:36:47 pm
He did accept blame and was adamant he'd sort it out. Can you imagine receiving two hours of barracking from all and sundry and not losing control on the odd occasion?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on January 31, 2022, 10:39:12 pm
He did accept blame and was adamant he'd sort it out. Can you imagine receiving two hours of barracking from all and sundry and not losing control on the odd occasion?

Did he apologise for lying to everyone including parliament?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on January 31, 2022, 10:44:33 pm
Partygte Snap Poll

65% do not accept PM's apology today
69% want him to resign
68% don't trust him and govt. to deliver
80% want PM to publish full, unredacted report
66% say he doesn't care about the hurt caused

https://twitter.com/SavantaComRes/status/1488272752523939840


and Yougov

Resign: 63%
Remain: 25%

https://twitter.com/LeftieStats/status/1488265815736532992
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ColinDouglasHandshake on January 31, 2022, 10:46:14 pm
Reform party lads and lasses. Start the revolution.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on January 31, 2022, 11:38:48 pm
Again he got it wrong. The tone was not to attack the opposition, it should be to accept some blame and be adamant you will sort it out.

But to say you'll do it then go on the attack is weak and desperate.

To bring up Jimmy Saville during an apology to the nation... Classy.

Seeing a bloke telling the truth ejected from the chamber shows how perverse this is becoming.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on January 31, 2022, 11:43:09 pm
He did accept blame and was adamant he'd sort it out. Can you imagine receiving two hours of barracking from all and sundry and not losing control on the odd occasion?

He did not accept any blame at all. He was 'sorry' that things happened but he was very careful to not apologise for anything he has said or done himself at all.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 01, 2022, 12:00:33 am
He repeatedly said "I take full responsibility."

A perfect example of debasing the language.

Gray found that there had been a failure of leadership. 13 parties are being investigated by the police including 4 parties that we know for a fact he was present at. How does him "taking full responsibility" square with him not resigning? The words don't mean anything. They dribble out of his lying mouth to give folk who refuse ever to criticise him something to cling to.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tommy toes on February 01, 2022, 12:27:27 am
My older brother voted Tory for the first time at the last election, simply because he was seduced by the Johnson rhetoric and charm.

We nearly fell out as I called him a fool, telling him that Johnson was a liar and a charlatan who couldn't lay straight in in bed.

Well he rang me tonight and apologised for his mistake, which is massive for him as he's always known better than me in his opinion.

Who knows, BB might be next.


Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on February 01, 2022, 12:34:25 am
One of those anonymous quotes from a Tory MP this evening.

"I was praying Gray would clear him, so we wouldn't have to go to war with Russia!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 01, 2022, 01:11:19 am
Ros Atkin's view

https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-politics-60208578
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 01, 2022, 07:46:45 am
My older brother voted Tory for the first time at the last election, simply because he was seduced by the Johnson rhetoric and charm.

We nearly fell out as I called him a fool, telling him that Johnson was a liar and a charlatan who couldn't lay straight in in bed.

Well he rang me tonight and apologised for his mistake, which is massive for him as he's always known better than me in his opinion.

Who knows, BB might be next.




What am I going to change my mind about?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on February 01, 2022, 08:02:28 am
TT is the kind of person who really puts me off the Labour party
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 01, 2022, 08:07:56 am
TT is the kind of person who really puts me off the Labour party
There are a few people on this forum who I simply couldn't be on the same side of. I'd rather support L**ds.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tommy toes on February 01, 2022, 08:46:04 am
TT is the kind of person who really puts me off the Labour party
Good

No surprise to see the yapping hound feels the same.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on February 01, 2022, 08:48:39 am
TT is the kind of person who really puts me off the Labour party
Good

No surprise to see the yapping hound feels the same.

Yes he does.
It isn’t hard to see why.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tommy toes on February 01, 2022, 09:13:08 am
TT is the kind of person who really puts me off the Labour party
Good

No surprise to see the yapping hound feels the same.

Yes he does.
It isn’t hard to see why.

Fair enough.

I have no regard at all for you either, whereas I respect BB for his forthrightness.




Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 01, 2022, 09:56:01 am
Been thinking about what happened with Ian Blackford yesterday in Parrliament. I've certainly got no axe to grind for him. He's a cynical t**t doing everything he can to drive a wedge between the Scots and English and yesterday was part of that process.

But it's more the fact that it appears now that you can lie in Parliament without penalty, but if you call out the lying, you get hoyed out.

This gets to the core of the Johnson project. Parliament's processes are based on the principle that members are basically honorable and behave honestly. That outright lying will always lead to someone's downfall.

Johnson has realised that if you get enough support behind you, you can give the rods to that. You can lie and have everyone know you're lying, but as long as you have a party that supports you, there's nothing can be done against you.

If he survives this, the whole basis of how we govern ourselves and more impy, how we control the Govt is f**ked. And worst of all, the whole basis of truth-based debate over issues is f**ked.

Why, in future, should any MP tell the truth in a discussion? When their opponents get clear advantages through bare-faced lying that goes unpunished?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 01, 2022, 10:19:01 am
Ed Balls talking to Ian Blackford on GMB this morning:

“The House of Commons has rules. You were saying the Prime Minister should not break the rule of misleading the House of Commons.

“At the same time, you were undermining the rules of the House of Commons because you know full well the Speaker has to enforce the rules that you can’t call people a liar.


“It seems a bit disingenuous to me for you to claim you didn’t know what you were doing, you did that to get thrown out.”
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 01, 2022, 10:25:37 am
My older brother voted Tory for the first time at the last election, simply because he was seduced by the Johnson rhetoric and charm.

We nearly fell out as I called him a fool, telling him that Johnson was a liar and a charlatan who couldn't lay straight in in bed.

Well he rang me tonight and apologised for his mistake, which is massive for him as he's always known better than me in his opinion.

Who knows, BB might be next.




Maybe he just felt there was no point in having rational debate with you because you believe that anyone who doesn’t think like you is a fool.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tommy toes on February 01, 2022, 10:26:53 am
Interesting to see Blackford (who I think is great, despite hating his party's sole aim) refuting Johnson's claim that they were friends behind the scenes.

The worst thing for me is despite the obvious hopelessness of his stance, is the continued support by most of those on the benches behind him.
Surely they must realise that by continuing to back him up they're no better than him, and if and when it goes tits up they'll have to answer to their constituents.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 01, 2022, 10:28:05 am
Ed Balls talking to Ian Blackford on GMB this morning:

“The House of Commons has rules. You were saying the Prime Minister should not break the rule of misleading the House of Commons.

“At the same time, you were undermining the rules of the House of Commons because you know full well the Speaker has to enforce the rules that you can’t call people a liar.


“It seems a bit disingenuous to me for you to claim you didn’t know what you were doing, you did that to get thrown out.”

They’re all the same.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tommy toes on February 01, 2022, 10:32:38 am
My older brother voted Tory for the first time at the last election, simply because he was seduced by the Johnson rhetoric and charm.

We nearly fell out as I called him a fool, telling him that Johnson was a liar and a charlatan who couldn't lay straight in in bed.

Well he rang me tonight and apologised for his mistake, which is massive for him as he's always known better than me in his opinion.

Who knows, BB might be next.




Maybe he just felt there was no point in having rational debate with you because you believe that anyone who doesn’t think like you is a fool.

Look, I among many others knew what Johnson was like and predicted it at the time and told my brother then.
Ive been wrong and foolish on many occasions but on this occasion he was and I told him so.
Doesn't mean him, or you for that matter, are serial fools.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 01, 2022, 10:40:42 am
My older brother voted Tory for the first time at the last election, simply because he was seduced by the Johnson rhetoric and charm.

We nearly fell out as I called him a fool, telling him that Johnson was a liar and a charlatan who couldn't lay straight in in bed.

Well he rang me tonight and apologised for his mistake, which is massive for him as he's always known better than me in his opinion.

Who knows, BB might be next.




Maybe he just felt there was no point in having rational debate with you because you believe that anyone who doesn’t think like you is a fool.

Look, I among many others knew what Johnson was like and predicted it at the time and told my brother then.
Ive been wrong and foolish on many occasions but on this occasion he was and I told him so.
Doesn't mean him, or you for that matter, are serial fools.

Here's a serious problem.


When we try to discuss things in here, the interaction frequently goes down a rabbit hole of which this is a perfect example.

Examples are given of where people got specific calls wrong (believing Brexit would be economically beneficial, believing Johnson would be an honest, decent PM). Then that gets extrapolated by people who don't like that argument into somehow meaning that the person making it thinks everything the other side believes is stupid or knowingly held in bad faith.

It destroys grown up discussion, because it immediately puts people in opposing trenches where they refuse to listen to anything the other side puts forward.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 01, 2022, 10:47:26 am
My older brother voted Tory for the first time at the last election, simply because he was seduced by the Johnson rhetoric and charm.

We nearly fell out as I called him a fool, telling him that Johnson was a liar and a charlatan who couldn't lay straight in in bed.

Well he rang me tonight and apologised for his mistake, which is massive for him as he's always known better than me in his opinion.

Who knows, BB might be next.




Maybe he just felt there was no point in having rational debate with you because you believe that anyone who doesn’t think like you is a fool.

Look, I among many others knew what Johnson was like and predicted it at the time and told my brother then.
Ive been wrong and foolish on many occasions but on this occasion he was and I told him so.
Doesn't mean him, or you for that matter, are serial fools.

Here's a serious problem.


When we try to discuss things in here, the interaction frequently goes down a rabbit hole of which this is a perfect example.

Examples are given of where people got specific calls wrong (believing Brexit would be economically beneficial, believing Johnson would be an honest, decent PM). Then that gets extrapolated by people who don't like that argument into somehow meaning that the person making it thinks everything the other side believes is stupid or knowingly held in bad faith.

It destroys grown up discussion, because it immediately puts people in opposing trenches where they refuse to listen to anything the other side puts forward.

Billy. Why on earth are you commenting on a response to my post? It doesn’t involve you, it was not directed towards you, and you are supposedly ignoring me.

And you have the nerve to talk about grown up discussion!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 01, 2022, 11:01:12 am
My older brother voted Tory for the first time at the last election, simply because he was seduced by the Johnson rhetoric and charm.

We nearly fell out as I called him a fool, telling him that Johnson was a liar and a charlatan who couldn't lay straight in in bed.

Well he rang me tonight and apologised for his mistake, which is massive for him as he's always known better than me in his opinion.

Who knows, BB might be next.




Maybe he just felt there was no point in having rational debate with you because you believe that anyone who doesn’t think like you is a fool.

Look, I among many others knew what Johnson was like and predicted it at the time and told my brother then.
Ive been wrong and foolish on many occasions but on this occasion he was and I told him so.
Doesn't mean him, or you for that matter, are serial fools.

Trying to disregard Billy’s preconceived nonsense, Tommy, my point is it is very difficult to debate anything regarding Johnson or this Government with you.
I never inferred that you thought your brother (or me, for that matter) was a serial fool. But with Johnson, you appear to think there is no debate to be had.
That’s wrong, but unfortunately, it’s another example of the ‘with me or agin me’ state of discussion we are trapped in at the moment.

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 01, 2022, 11:03:45 am
My older brother voted Tory for the first time at the last election, simply because he was seduced by the Johnson rhetoric and charm.

We nearly fell out as I called him a fool, telling him that Johnson was a liar and a charlatan who couldn't lay straight in in bed.

Well he rang me tonight and apologised for his mistake, which is massive for him as he's always known better than me in his opinion.

Who knows, BB might be next.




Maybe he just felt there was no point in having rational debate with you because you believe that anyone who doesn’t think like you is a fool.

Look, I among many others knew what Johnson was like and predicted it at the time and told my brother then.
Ive been wrong and foolish on many occasions but on this occasion he was and I told him so.
Doesn't mean him, or you for that matter, are serial fools.

Here's a serious problem.


When we try to discuss things in here, the interaction frequently goes down a rabbit hole of which this is a perfect example.

Examples are given of where people got specific calls wrong (believing Brexit would be economically beneficial, believing Johnson would be an honest, decent PM). Then that gets extrapolated by people who don't like that argument into somehow meaning that the person making it thinks everything the other side believes is stupid or knowingly held in bad faith.

It destroys grown up discussion, because it immediately puts people in opposing trenches where they refuse to listen to anything the other side puts forward.
Johnson has had the most difficult job as PM in history. He hasn't had the chance to show his true effectiveness yet.

How do we know yet that Brexit won't be economically beneficial to us?

You see, No, in fact, you don't see, there are so many things you use as ammunition for your attacks that are so misleading, it's hard to know where to begin.

Maybe sometimes you'd be better just firing offensive insults and skipping the bullshit.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tommy toes on February 01, 2022, 11:14:41 am
My older brother voted Tory for the first time at the last election, simply because he was seduced by the Johnson rhetoric and charm.

We nearly fell out as I called him a fool, telling him that Johnson was a liar and a charlatan who couldn't lay straight in in bed.

Well he rang me tonight and apologised for his mistake, which is massive for him as he's always known better than me in his opinion.

Who knows, BB might be next.




Maybe he just felt there was no point in having rational debate with you because you believe that anyone who doesn’t think like you is a fool.

Look, I among many others knew what Johnson was like and predicted it at the time and told my brother then.
Ive been wrong and foolish on many occasions but on this occasion he was and I told him so.
Doesn't mean him, or you for that matter, are serial fools.

Trying to disregard Billy’s preconceived nonsense, Tommy, my point is it is very difficult to debate anything regarding Johnson or this Government with you.
I never inferred that you thought your brother (or me, for that matter) was a serial fool. But with Johnson, you appear to think there is no debate to be had.
That’s wrong, but unfortunately, it’s another example of the ‘with me or agin me’ state of discussion we are trapped in at the moment.


Here we go again.
You said that i believe that anyone who doesn't think like me is a fool.
Which kind of infers that on any subject anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. This is not so as has been proved to me on many occasions throughout my life.

By the way BST is spot on as usual.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on February 01, 2022, 11:15:45 am
Fair play TT, we can all be wrong at times (maybe not as much as Johnson usually)
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 01, 2022, 11:17:15 am
BB.

1) On Brexit, the Bank of England tells us that we have lost £727 per second over the past 5 years de to the Brexit vote. You are perfectly at liberty to explain how we a) stop that loss and b) make up the difference. Please point me to some specific policies that you reckon can turn that around.

2) On Johnson, I was in this instance talking about his honesty and decency. I assume, since you've never once said anything to the contrary, that you are happy with him on those issues, but in the wider population, there's a growing realisation that they've been had by a pathological liar, and that having a pathological liar in charge is a very bad thing. That doesn't mean I think those people are incapable of getting any decision right. Whereas you, by your own words, are so against the people you see on the other side of the debate that you'd rather be wrong and support a liar than admit they might have a point.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 01, 2022, 11:21:00 am
My older brother voted Tory for the first time at the last election, simply because he was seduced by the Johnson rhetoric and charm.

We nearly fell out as I called him a fool, telling him that Johnson was a liar and a charlatan who couldn't lay straight in in bed.

Well he rang me tonight and apologised for his mistake, which is massive for him as he's always known better than me in his opinion.

Who knows, BB might be next.




Maybe he just felt there was no point in having rational debate with you because you believe that anyone who doesn’t think like you is a fool.

Look, I among many others knew what Johnson was like and predicted it at the time and told my brother then.
Ive been wrong and foolish on many occasions but on this occasion he was and I told him so.
Doesn't mean him, or you for that matter, are serial fools.

Trying to disregard Billy’s preconceived nonsense, Tommy, my point is it is very difficult to debate anything regarding Johnson or this Government with you.
I never inferred that you thought your brother (or me, for that matter) was a serial fool. But with Johnson, you appear to think there is no debate to be had.
That’s wrong, but unfortunately, it’s another example of the ‘with me or agin me’ state of discussion we are trapped in at the moment.


Here we go again.
You said that i believe that anyone who doesn't think like me is a fool.
Which kind of infers that on any subject anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. This is not so as has been proved to me on many occasions throughout my life.

By the way BST is spot on as usual.

BST is not spot on, as usual.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tommy toes on February 01, 2022, 11:35:35 am
Belton.
You are right that I will hear nothing good about Johnson and this Government.
They keep going on about how they've rolled out the most successful vaccine project, when blow me, I thought it was the scientists and the NHS who'd done all the work.
Brexit is a disaster and as time goes by we'll all recognise that.
Just think about it, what's good about getting trade deals with Australia and NZ, when we had better deals with no red tape with countries on our doorstep.
Doesn't make any sense.
Still. we've taken back control and have £350m going into the NHS every week
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 01, 2022, 11:37:17 am
My older brother voted Tory for the first time at the last election, simply because he was seduced by the Johnson rhetoric and charm.

We nearly fell out as I called him a fool, telling him that Johnson was a liar and a charlatan who couldn't lay straight in in bed.

Well he rang me tonight and apologised for his mistake, which is massive for him as he's always known better than me in his opinion.

Who knows, BB might be next.




Maybe he just felt there was no point in having rational debate with you because you believe that anyone who doesn’t think like you is a fool.

Look, I among many others knew what Johnson was like and predicted it at the time and told my brother then.
Ive been wrong and foolish on many occasions but on this occasion he was and I told him so.
Doesn't mean him, or you for that matter, are serial fools.

Trying to disregard Billy’s preconceived nonsense, Tommy, my point is it is very difficult to debate anything regarding Johnson or this Government with you.
I never inferred that you thought your brother (or me, for that matter) was a serial fool. But with Johnson, you appear to think there is no debate to be had.
That’s wrong, but unfortunately, it’s another example of the ‘with me or agin me’ state of discussion we are trapped in at the moment.


Here we go again.
You said that i believe that anyone who doesn't think like me is a fool.
Which kind of infers that on any subject anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. This is not so as has been proved to me on many occasions throughout my life.

By the way BST is spot on as usual.

I did not.
I said ‘perhaps’ your brother does. And just to be clear, the conversation was specifically about Johnson. Perhaps I needed to make that absolutely crystal clear.
The ONLY inferences being made here are incorrect ones by you.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 01, 2022, 11:43:25 am
Belton.
You are right that I will hear nothing good about Johnson and this Government.
They keep going on about how they've rolled out the most successful vaccine project, when blow me, I thought it was the scientists and the NHS who'd done all the work.
Brexit is a disaster and as time goes by we'll all recognise that.
Just think about it, what's good about getting trade deals with Australia and NZ, when we had better deals with no red tape with countries on our doorstep.
Doesn't make any sense.
Still. we've taken back control and have £350m going into the NHS every week

I appreciate your honesty. I wish other like minded people would be as honest as you.

You refuse to hear anyone speak any good of Boris Johnson. I respect that, I really do.

So what are you debating, exactly?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tommy toes on February 01, 2022, 11:47:55 am
Belton.
What you wrote is there in black and white. There was no 'perhaps'
I ain't going down this road with you again.
Have a good day.
I'm off to do some unpaid work for the village now.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 01, 2022, 11:56:07 am
Belton.
What you wrote is there in black and white. There was no 'perhaps'
I ain't going down this road with you again.
Have a good day.
I'm off to do some unpaid work for the village now.

My mistake, Tommy. I wrote ‘maybe’, not ‘perhaps’. It means EXACTLY the same thing.

Here’s the full quote:

‘Maybe he just felt there was no point in having rational debate with you because you believe that anyone who doesn’t think like you is a fool.’

Well done for supporting your local community.

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on February 01, 2022, 11:57:12 am
TT is the kind of person who really puts me off the Labour party
Good

No surprise to see the yapping hound feels the same.

Yes he does.
It isn’t hard to see why.

Fair enough.

I have no regard at all for you either, whereas I respect BB for his forthrightness.

TT. Your leader BST doesn’t share your respect for BB and regularly speaks down to him, as would a teacher to a naughty boy.
I don’t think that BB voted Tory and neither did I.
For my own part, I have said that I think it is time for Johnson to go and I think the current situation has gone way beyond he keeps his credibility.
I also agree with what BB has said about the difficulties that this government has had to deal with in the last two years and genuinely I don’t think that Starmer and his crew could have done any better.
Of course no one can know whether that it true.
They can only surmise.
What I do dislike is what you and a few others on here do, which is mock any views that non Labour voters have which don’t support your way of thinking.
For you to fall out with your brother for the way he voted backs that up.
I could never imagine falling out with my brother, especially over something as trivial as who he voted for.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 01, 2022, 12:19:24 pm
BB.

1) On Brexit, the Bank of England tells us that we have lost £727 per second over the past 5 years de to the Brexit vote. You are perfectly at liberty to explain how we a) stop that loss and b) make up the difference. Please point me to some specific policies that you reckon can turn that around.

2) On Johnson, I was in this instance talking about his honesty and decency. I assume, since you've never once said anything to the contrary, that you are happy with him on those issues, but in the wider population, there's a growing realisation that they've been had by a pathological liar, and that having a pathological liar in charge is a very bad thing. That doesn't mean I think those people are incapable of getting any decision right. Whereas you, by your own words, are so against the people you see on the other side of the debate that you'd rather be wrong and support a liar than admit they might have a point.

1) There you go again. I'm not talking about what has happened, I'm talking about what might happen in the future, and seeing as we voted democratically to leave the EU we have no other option.

 The Bank of England has been wrong with their forecasts in the past and could be wrong this time.

 If we'd have made a final decision on the outcome of the Rovers v Plymouth game on Saturday after 20 minutes we'd have been celebrating and Plymouth would have wanted their manager sacked.

2) I'll answer this if or when you answer point 1.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tommy toes on February 01, 2022, 12:21:00 pm
Hound.
Find evidence of me mocking anyone. I hardly ever post on here. Disagree strongly yes.
I didn't fall out with my brother, only nearly.
I feel passionately about Johnson being exposed for what he is, and always has been.
On other subjects I'm not too bothered either way.
And stop calling BST my leader.
Can't help you're usual bit of sh*t stirring can you?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: big fat yorkshire pudding on February 01, 2022, 12:24:00 pm
It doesn't have to be one or the other though.  It's fine to think that Boris is a Kitson but also think that the opposition isn't up to much either.  A bit like the football tonight, I'm not wholely convinced that Rovers are good enough to get the job done, but it doesn't mean I'm buying a ticket in the away end.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 01, 2022, 12:30:13 pm
So you think no one could beat someone that's kicked around 30,000 own goals pud?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 01, 2022, 12:31:05 pm
It doesn't have to be one or the other though.  It's fine to think that Boris is a Kitson but also think that the opposition isn't up to much either.  A bit like the football tonight, I'm not wholely convinced that Rovers are good enough to get the job done, but it doesn't mean I'm buying a ticket in the away end.

I completely agree with that, Big.
Unfortunately, there is a blind spot with many posters on here where that sensible rationale is dismissed when it comes to certain topics.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 01, 2022, 12:34:54 pm
The first duty of a government is to protect it's own people.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 01, 2022, 12:42:36 pm
Continuing the football theme, the trouble with BST and the people who stick to his views like Limpets is he thinks he's the referee and the Limpets act like his linesmen.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on February 01, 2022, 01:07:45 pm
Whereas BB is the t**t that throws flares onto the pitch.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 01, 2022, 01:10:51 pm
.....And Mr Wiggerly is the nerd who still wears them.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on February 01, 2022, 01:26:18 pm
That one didn't quite reach the touchline.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 01, 2022, 01:43:40 pm
Back on the topic of truth, standards and decency in politics.

Raab was wheeled out on R4 this morning to protect Big Dog.

He was asked if he would dare repeat Johnson's disgusting dig that Starmer had protected Jimmy Savile. Bearing in mind that you can't be prosecuted for slander for what you say in the House, but you can if you repeat it outside.

Raab declined.

The interviewer asked him if he would therefore criticise Johnson for saying it in Parliament.

Can you guess how he replied?

He said accusations like that were (and I quote) "part of the cut and thrust of Parliamentary debate."

Just read that again.

The Deputy PM thinks wrongly accusing your opponent of protecting a serial paedophile is fair game.

Imagine senior people in the Thatcher or Major or even Cameron Govts acting like this? What the f**king hell has happened to standards? Truth? Common f**king decency?

 Nye Bevan was nearly right all those years ago. SOME Tories truly are lower than vermin.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 01, 2022, 02:38:29 pm
Back on the topic of truth, standards and decency in politics.

Raab was wheeled out on R4 this morning to protect Big Dog.

He was asked if he would dare repeat Johnson's disgusting dig that Starmer had protected Jimmy Savile. Bearing in mind that you can't be prosecuted for slander for what you say in the House, but you can if you repeat it outside.

Raab declined.

The interviewer asked him if he would therefore criticise Johnson for saying it in Parliament.

Can you guess how he replied?

He said accusations like that were (and I quote) "part of the cut and thrust of Parliamentary debate."

Just read that again.

The Deputy PM things wrongly accusing your opponent of protecting a serial paedophile is fair game.

Imagine senior people in the Thatcher or Major or even Cameron Govts acting like this? What the f**king hell has happened to standards? Truth? Common f**king decency?

 Nye Bevan was nearly right all those years ago. SOME Tories truly are lower than vermin.
What’s the difference between that and ‘Scumgate’?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on February 01, 2022, 02:51:01 pm
Back on the topic of truth, standards and decency in politics.

Raab was wheeled out on R4 this morning to protect Big Dog.

He was asked if he would dare repeat Johnson's disgusting dig that Starmer had protected Jimmy Savile. Bearing in mind that you can't be prosecuted for slander for what you say in the House, but you can if you repeat it outside.

Raab declined.

The interviewer asked him if he would therefore criticise Johnson for saying it in Parliament.

Can you guess how he replied?

He said accusations like that were (and I quote) "part of the cut and thrust of Parliamentary debate."

Just read that again.

The Deputy PM things wrongly accusing your opponent of protecting a serial paedophile is fair game.

Imagine senior people in the Thatcher or Major or even Cameron Govts acting like this? What the f**king hell has happened to standards? Truth? Common f**king decency?

 Nye Bevan was nearly right all those years ago. SOME Tories truly are lower than vermin.
What’s the difference between that and ‘Scumgate’?

Rayner has said it outside of the House, Raab daren’t repeat Johnsons words outside of the House
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 01, 2022, 02:56:59 pm
I meant in her own party members’ responses.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on February 01, 2022, 03:40:05 pm
Hound.
Find evidence of me mocking anyone. I hardly ever post on here. Disagree strongly yes.
I didn't fall out with my brother, only nearly.
I feel passionately about Johnson being exposed for what he is, and always has been.
On other subjects I'm not too bothered either way.
And stop calling BST my leader.
Can't help you're usual bit of sh*t stirring can you?


TT, speaking of shit stirring, it was you who brought me into the conversation with your comment below.
You did that with the intention of baiting, which sadly I took this time, so don’t preach on here about shit stirring when you do the exact same thing.
I see that you picked up a like from a troll too.


TT is the kind of person who really puts me off the Labour party
Good

No surprise to see the yapping hound feels the same.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on February 01, 2022, 03:40:38 pm
Back on the topic of truth, standards and decency in politics.

Raab was wheeled out on R4 this morning to protect Big Dog.

He was asked if he would dare repeat Johnson's disgusting dig that Starmer had protected Jimmy Savile. Bearing in mind that you can't be prosecuted for slander for what you say in the House, but you can if you repeat it outside.

Raab declined.

The interviewer asked him if he would therefore criticise Johnson for saying it in Parliament.

Can you guess how he replied?

He said accusations like that were (and I quote) "part of the cut and thrust of Parliamentary debate."

Just read that again.

The Deputy PM things wrongly accusing your opponent of protecting a serial paedophile is fair game.

Imagine senior people in the Thatcher or Major or even Cameron Govts acting like this? What the f**king hell has happened to standards? Truth? Common f**king decency?

 Nye Bevan was nearly right all those years ago. SOME Tories truly are lower than vermin.
What’s the difference between that and ‘Scumgate’?

One of them made a comment in public and took full responsibilty and any consequences that came from it.

The other refused to either repeat or disclaim a known far-right lie in public, despite several promtings.

And it will get worse - history tells us that.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 01, 2022, 03:49:16 pm
Back on the topic of truth, standards and decency in politics.

Raab was wheeled out on R4 this morning to protect Big Dog.

He was asked if he would dare repeat Johnson's disgusting dig that Starmer had protected Jimmy Savile. Bearing in mind that you can't be prosecuted for slander for what you say in the House, but you can if you repeat it outside.

Raab declined.

The interviewer asked him if he would therefore criticise Johnson for saying it in Parliament.

Can you guess how he replied?

He said accusations like that were (and I quote) "part of the cut and thrust of Parliamentary debate."

Just read that again.

The Deputy PM things wrongly accusing your opponent of protecting a serial paedophile is fair game.

Imagine senior people in the Thatcher or Major or even Cameron Govts acting like this? What the f**king hell has happened to standards? Truth? Common f**king decency?

 Nye Bevan was nearly right all those years ago. SOME Tories truly are lower than vermin.
What’s the difference between that and ‘Scumgate’?

One of them made a comment in public and took full responsibilty and any consequences that came from it.

The other refused to either repeat or disclaim a known far-right lie in public, despite several promtings.

And it will get worse - history tells us that.

As I explained to Filo, Wilts, my point was about her fellow party members’ responses when asked by the media, which was the point of Billy’s post.
For the record, I agree with what Billy said about Raab, but I felt the hypocrisy needed highlighting.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on February 01, 2022, 03:53:32 pm
My older brother voted Tory for the first time at the last election, simply because he was seduced by the Johnson rhetoric and charm.

We nearly fell out as I called him a fool, telling him that Johnson was a liar and a charlatan who couldn't lay straight in in bed.

Well he rang me tonight and apologised for his mistake, which is massive for him as he's always known better than me in his opinion.

Who knows, BB might be next.




Maybe he just felt there was no point in having rational debate with you because you believe that anyone who doesn’t think like you is a fool.

Look, I among many others knew what Johnson was like and predicted it at the time and told my brother then.
Ive been wrong and foolish on many occasions but on this occasion he was and I told him so.
Doesn't mean him, or you for that matter, are serial fools.

Here's a serious problem.


When we try to discuss things in here, the interaction frequently goes down a rabbit hole of which this is a perfect example.

Examples are given of where people got specific calls wrong (believing Brexit would be economically beneficial, believing Johnson would be an honest, decent PM). Then that gets extrapolated by people who don't like that argument into somehow meaning that the person making it thinks everything the other side believes is stupid or knowingly held in bad faith.

It destroys grown up discussion, because it immediately puts people in opposing trenches where they refuse to listen to anything the other side puts forward.
Johnson has had the most difficult job as PM in history. He hasn't had the chance to show his true effectiveness yet.

How do we know yet that Brexit won't be economically beneficial to us?

You see, No, in fact, you don't see, there are so many things you use as ammunition for your attacks that are so misleading, it's hard to know where to begin.

Maybe sometimes you'd be better just firing offensive insults and skipping the bullshit.

Rubbish. Four of them fought World War's in the last century, one of them facing serious threat of invasion with few allies. Blair faced the breakdown of the country's banks and everyone losing their money, Wilson and Heath, oil crises, Major and Thatcher, massive unemployment and home financial crises.

How many of them would have skipped COBRA meetings to write a book? Ignored WHO advice to lockdown and introduce testing?

He has faced exactly the same problems as every other leader in the world at this time, with arguably greater resources than most of them. He is up there with Trump and Bolsanaro in his response, ignoring the public and looking after his cronies.

He is a totally out of his depth liar. Churchill and Thatcher will be looking down in shame.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on February 01, 2022, 03:56:38 pm
Back on the topic of truth, standards and decency in politics.

Raab was wheeled out on R4 this morning to protect Big Dog.

He was asked if he would dare repeat Johnson's disgusting dig that Starmer had protected Jimmy Savile. Bearing in mind that you can't be prosecuted for slander for what you say in the House, but you can if you repeat it outside.

Raab declined.

The interviewer asked him if he would therefore criticise Johnson for saying it in Parliament.

Can you guess how he replied?

He said accusations like that were (and I quote) "part of the cut and thrust of Parliamentary debate."

Just read that again.

The Deputy PM things wrongly accusing your opponent of protecting a serial paedophile is fair game.

Imagine senior people in the Thatcher or Major or even Cameron Govts acting like this? What the f**king hell has happened to standards? Truth? Common f**king decency?

 Nye Bevan was nearly right all those years ago. SOME Tories truly are lower than vermin.
What’s the difference between that and ‘Scumgate’?

One of them made a comment in public and took full responsibilty and any consequences that came from it.

The other refused to either repeat or disclaim a known far-right lie in public, despite several promtings.

And it will get worse - history tells us that.

As I explained to Filo, Wilts, my point was about her fellow party members’ responses when asked by the media, which was the point of Billy’s post.
For the record, I agree with what Billy said about Raab, but I felt the hypocrisy needed highlighting.


Sorry Belton, point taken. Definately a lot of unhappiness with callers, who said they were Tory members (in some cases about to be ex-members) about Johnson's comments today.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: foxbat on February 01, 2022, 04:28:21 pm
The Jimmy Saville slur is like the £350m a week. It doesn't matter that it's an appalling lie, he just wants people to talk about it and then it becomes believed. Shameful.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 01, 2022, 04:30:38 pm
Back on the topic of truth, standards and decency in politics.

Raab was wheeled out on R4 this morning to protect Big Dog.

He was asked if he would dare repeat Johnson's disgusting dig that Starmer had protected Jimmy Savile. Bearing in mind that you can't be prosecuted for slander for what you say in the House, but you can if you repeat it outside.

Raab declined.

The interviewer asked him if he would therefore criticise Johnson for saying it in Parliament.

Can you guess how he replied?

He said accusations like that were (and I quote) "part of the cut and thrust of Parliamentary debate."

Just read that again.

The Deputy PM things wrongly accusing your opponent of protecting a serial paedophile is fair game.

Imagine senior people in the Thatcher or Major or even Cameron Govts acting like this? What the f**king hell has happened to standards? Truth? Common f**king decency?

 Nye Bevan was nearly right all those years ago. SOME Tories truly are lower than vermin.
What’s the difference between that and ‘Scumgate’?

Rayner has said it outside of the House, Raab daren’t repeat Johnsons words outside of the House

Filo

I'd hazard a guess that Belton is having a pop at my choice of phrase and comparing that to what Rayner said.

For the record, I stand by what I said. For senior politicians to make false accusations that another politician knowingly chose to protect a paedophile, and for that to be passed off as "Parliamentary cut and thrust" is utterly disgusting and it needs calling out as such.


EDIT. Just seen Belton's response to Wilts, so hands up - I misread what he was saying.

So the comparison is Rayner vs Johnson and the reaction of colleagues.

1) Rayner was calling "scum" comment was aimed at a party that elected a man who had a history of unretracted racist statements to his name, and had publicly called gay men "tank top wearing bum boys". Rayner offered to retract her statement if Johnson did.

2) I personally thought she was stupid to use such an insult, and absolutely stupid to apply it to all Tories, but to be frank, is difficult to argue that it doesn't apply to Johnson's career long behaviour.

3) Starmer didn't defend Rayner. he publicly rebuked her and smacked her down over the next few weeks.

4) Comparing any of the above to the PM chucking out a revolting untrue slur under Parliamentary Privilege, then having his deputy condone it is what you do when you are determined to take bothsidesism to the edge of credulity.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 01, 2022, 04:47:52 pm
This Tory MP gets it.
https://twitter.com/JulianSmithUK/status/1488436899215818753?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 01, 2022, 05:06:06 pm
Back on the topic of truth, standards and decency in politics.

Raab was wheeled out on R4 this morning to protect Big Dog.

He was asked if he would dare repeat Johnson's disgusting dig that Starmer had protected Jimmy Savile. Bearing in mind that you can't be prosecuted for slander for what you say in the House, but you can if you repeat it outside.

Raab declined.

The interviewer asked him if he would therefore criticise Johnson for saying it in Parliament.

Can you guess how he replied?

He said accusations like that were (and I quote) "part of the cut and thrust of Parliamentary debate."

Just read that again.

The Deputy PM things wrongly accusing your opponent of protecting a serial paedophile is fair game.

Imagine senior people in the Thatcher or Major or even Cameron Govts acting like this? What the f**king hell has happened to standards? Truth? Common f**king decency?

 Nye Bevan was nearly right all those years ago. SOME Tories truly are lower than vermin.
What’s the difference between that and ‘Scumgate’?

Rayner has said it outside of the House, Raab daren’t repeat Johnsons words outside of the House

Filo

I'd hazard a guess that Belton is having a pop at my choice of phrase and comparing that to what Rayner said.

For the record, I stand by what I said. For senior politicians to make false accusations that another politician knowingly chose to protect a paedophile, and for that to be passed off as "Parliamentary cut and thrust" is utterly disgusting and it needs calling out as such.


EDIT. Just seen Belton's response to Wilts, so hands up - I misread what he was saying.

So the comparison is Rayner vs Johnson and the reaction of colleagues.

1) Rayner was calling "scum" comment was aimed at a party that elected a man who had a history of unretracted racist statements to his name, and had publicly called gay men "tank top wearing bum boys". Rayner offered to retract her statement if Johnson did.

2) I personally thought she was stupid to use such an insult, and absolutely stupid to apply it to all Tories, but to be frank, is difficult to argue that it doesn't apply to Johnson's career long behaviour.

3) Starmer didn't defend Rayner. he publicly rebuked her and smacked her down over the next few weeks.

4) Comparing any of the above to the PM chucking out a revolting untrue slur under Parliamentary Privilege, then having his deputy condone it is what you do when you are determined to take bothsidesism to the edge of credulity.
Don’t hazard guesses, Billy. You just make yourself look silly.

Either engage with my posts or don’t. I couldn’t care less.

But this commenting on what I might have said via another poster is probably the most childish thing I’ve seen on here. This from someone who reckons all he wants is grown up debate.

What’s next?

“Filo. Tell belton he smells”

Or

“Tommy. belton’s mam’s ugly, pass it on.

For f**k’s sake, grow up.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tommy toes on February 01, 2022, 05:10:49 pm
Hound.
Find evidence of me mocking anyone. I hardly ever post on here. Disagree strongly yes.
I didn't fall out with my brother, only nearly.
I feel passionately about Johnson being exposed for what he is, and always has been.
On other subjects I'm not too bothered either way.
And stop calling BST my leader.
Can't help you're usual bit of sh*t stirring can you?


TT, speaking of shit stirring, it was you who brought me into the conversation with your comment below.
You did that with the intention of baiting, which sadly I took this time, so don’t preach on here about shit stirring when you do the exact same thing.
I see that you picked up a like from a troll too.


TT is the kind of person who really puts me off the Labour party
Good

No surprise to see the yapping hound feels the same.

I wouldn't have mentioned you at all if you hadn't liked Ldr's post.
I had no intention to bait you.
Couldn't care less what you post.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on February 01, 2022, 05:51:48 pm
Hound.
Find evidence of me mocking anyone. I hardly ever post on here. Disagree strongly yes.
I didn't fall out with my brother, only nearly.
I feel passionately about Johnson being exposed for what he is, and always has been.
On other subjects I'm not too bothered either way.
And stop calling BST my leader.
Can't help you're usual bit of sh*t stirring can you?


TT, speaking of shit stirring, it was you who brought me into the conversation with your comment below.
You did that with the intention of baiting, which sadly I took this time, so don’t preach on here about shit stirring when you do the exact same thing.
I see that you picked up a like from a troll too.


TT is the kind of person who really puts me off the Labour party
Good

No surprise to see the yapping hound feels the same.

I wouldn't have mentioned you at all if you hadn't liked Ldr's post.
I had no intention to bait you.
Couldn't care less what you post.

So because I liked (actually did like) what ldr has posted you decided to call me yappy hound.
Childish and pathetic.
As your leader often says, grow up.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tommy toes on February 01, 2022, 06:26:57 pm
So when the most unoriginal, boring trolling poster likes a post that disparages me I should not respond eh?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on February 01, 2022, 06:30:50 pm
So when the most unoriginal, boring trolling poster likes a post that disparages me I should not respond eh?

Or to put it another way, you feel that you have the right to do the same to me because I like what another poster has written.
There are too many posters like you on this forum.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tommy toes on February 01, 2022, 06:42:45 pm
And that's why I called you the yapping hound. You run along at the side of others egging them on.
Nothing constructive to say for yourself.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 01, 2022, 09:40:24 pm
Marina Hyde

''Let’s begin with some real talk. The prime minister is under police investigation for multiple breaches of his own Covid laws. At least four gatherings or parties in which Boris Johnson was directly involved are being probed by the Met, including one in his private flat. In total, police are investigating 12 potentially law-breaking Downing Street parties which took place after the British people had been ordered – BY HIM – to live under the most draconian restrictions imposed in peacetime. The Global Britain that Johnson promised saw him yesterday bin off a call to the Russian president, who is apparently on the brink of an invasion, so that he could explain that he needs to wait for police officers to decide if he went to an illicit party in his own home. The Conservative MPs somehow able to make their peace with all this increasingly resemble cult members accepting the latest transparent lies and failures of a cult leader''

there's more .........

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/01/wine-fridges-tory-party-kool-aid
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on February 01, 2022, 10:30:00 pm
And that's why I called you the yapping hound. You run along at the side of others egging them on.
Nothing constructive to say for yourself.

Still picking up the stainy troll.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on February 01, 2022, 10:36:33 pm
And that's why I called you the yapping hound. You run along at the side of others egging them on.
Nothing constructive to say for yourself.

Still picking up the stainy troll.

Knew I’d get the bite, but that aside you done this before with me, the difference is you cry like a baby when you’re pulled up about it, and TT is correct, you’re like the little kid running with the big boys egging them on, nothing else to say, just keep chipping in, it’s pathetic!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on February 01, 2022, 10:44:00 pm
And that's why I called you the yapping hound. You run along at the side of others egging them on.
Nothing constructive to say for yourself.

Still picking up the stainy troll.

Knew I’d get the bite, but that aside you done this before with me, the difference is you cry like a baby when you’re pulled up about it, and TT is correct, you’re like the little kid running with the big boys egging them on, nothing else to say, just keep chipping in, it’s pathetic!

Confirming your status as a WUM then Filo, fishing for bites.
At least I liked a post for genuinely liking what a poster had written, not fishing like you have admitted to.

I don’t give a flying f**k what you and your cronies think, you are like the politicians, all the same.
Grow up.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tommy toes on February 02, 2022, 12:03:39 am
My older brother voted Tory for the first time at the last election, simply because he was seduced by the Johnson rhetoric and charm.

We nearly fell out as I called him a fool, telling him that Johnson was a liar and a charlatan who couldn't lay straight in in bed.

Well he rang me tonight and apologised for his mistake, which is massive for him as he's always known better than me in his opinion.

Who knows, BB might be next.




Maybe he just felt there was no point in having rational debate with you because you believe that anyone who doesn’t think like you is a fool.

Look, I among many others knew what Johnson was like and predicted it at the time and told my brother then.
Ive been wrong and foolish on many occasions but on this occasion he was and I told him so.
Doesn't mean him, or you for that matter, are serial fools.

Here's a serious problem.


When we try to discuss things in here, the interaction frequently goes down a rabbit hole of which this is a perfect example.

Examples are given of where people got specific calls wrong (believing Brexit would be economically beneficial, believing Johnson would be an honest, decent PM). Then that gets extrapolated by people who don't like that argument into somehow meaning that the person making it thinks everything the other side believes is stupid or knowingly held in bad faith.

It destroys grown up discussion, because it immediately puts people in opposing trenches where they refuse to listen to anything the other side puts forward.
Johnson has had the most difficult job as PM in history. He hasn't had the chance to show his true effectiveness yet.

How do we know yet that Brexit won't be economically beneficial to us?

You see, No, in fact, you don't see, there are so many things you use as ammunition for your attacks that are so misleading, it's hard to know where to begin.

Maybe sometimes you'd be better just firing offensive insults and skipping the bullshit.

Rubbish. Four of them fought World War's in the last century, one of them facing serious threat of invasion with few allies. Blair faced the breakdown of the country's banks and everyone losing their money, Wilson and Heath, oil crises, Major and Thatcher, massive unemployment and home financial crises.

How many of them would have skipped COBRA meetings to write a book? Ignored WHO advice to lockdown and introduce testing?

He has faced exactly the same problems as every other leader in the world at this time, with arguably greater resources than most of them. He is up there with Trump and Bolsanaro in his response, ignoring the public and looking after his cronies.

He is a totally out of his depth liar. Churchill and Thatcher will be looking down in shame.

Can't let this pass without again referencing the great Clement Atlee.

From the ruins of the second world war he along with Bevan, Bevin and Morrison, transformed this counrty for ordinary working people, with the foundation of the NHS and the Welfare state while keeping the warring factions within the Labour Party in check for 20 years.
He was a great and humble man, and people like Johnson besmirch the office he graced

For an overview of 20th century life and politics there is no better read than Citizen Clem by John Bew.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 02, 2022, 12:07:37 am
I think you are being overly generous there TT, johson has shat on the office of PM, shat on parliament and shat all over the good people of Britain.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on February 02, 2022, 08:24:04 am
Genius

https://twitter.com/govindajeggy/status/1488519378601746436?s=21
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 02, 2022, 09:40:47 am
Surely it should be "You gotta fight...for the right...to hold a work meeting"?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on February 02, 2022, 09:42:01 am
Another couple of tories have publicly stated they have their letters in to the 1922.
Tobias Elwood the latest
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 02, 2022, 09:44:14 am
Future PM material?

''Johnson has nothing to apologise for over Savile comments, says Gove
Minister defends PM after remarks that Keir Starmer failed to prosecute broadcaster while head of CPS''


Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Metalmicky on February 02, 2022, 04:04:12 pm
Thought this was amusing...

https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/carrie-and-i-need-a-separate-house-just-for-parties-johnsons-lessons-learned-from-the-sue-gray-report-20220202216973
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on February 02, 2022, 05:40:13 pm
Ladies and gentleman your Prime Minister - not even trusted to take official papers with him

https://twitter.com/RupertMyers/status/1488894770776879108
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on February 02, 2022, 05:40:55 pm
Three more letters of no confidence today.

The confidence is starting to slide away now.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on February 02, 2022, 06:43:22 pm
It won’t be too long now.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 02, 2022, 07:39:39 pm
How many letters are needed?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on February 02, 2022, 07:45:01 pm
54 or around that number I think
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on February 02, 2022, 08:23:56 pm
Future PM material?

''Johnson has nothing to apologise for over Savile comments, says Gove
Minister defends PM after remarks that Keir Starmer failed to prosecute broadcaster while head of CPS''




I can't wait for Boris to repeat the allegation outside the House Of Commons.

But the coward won't, of course.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on February 02, 2022, 09:14:07 pm
54 or around that number I think

Yep 54 needed. Reports are that 17 Tory MPs have submitted theirs. The Tory back benchers are as good as rovers at clocking up points.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Donnywolf on February 03, 2022, 07:07:11 am
What would happen then though ?

A vote of confidence in Johnson .... but would it simply be passed because on top of the 54 MPs submitting letters another 126 [ish] would have to join them to force a Leadership contest ?

OR do loads of them willingly join the anti Johnson gang. They might be lying low now unwilling to rock the boat and look traitors but they might get "brave" if they get chance

Personally I have no idea but just getting to 54 Letters wouldnt mean he was gone

He cant run for Leader again in short term - maybe never
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on February 03, 2022, 03:16:26 pm
What would happen then though ?

A vote of confidence in Johnson .... but would it simply be passed because on top of the 54 MPs submitting letters another 126 [ish] would have to join them to force a Leadership contest ?

OR do loads of them willingly join the anti Johnson gang. They might be lying low now unwilling to rock the boat and look traitors but they might get "brave" if they get chance

Personally I have no idea but just getting to 54 Letters wouldnt mean he was gone

He cant run for Leader again in short term - maybe never

If 54 submit their letters then it invokes an overall vote amongst the tories.
If he wins this he is secure for another year.
If he doesn’t, it goes to a leadership bun fight.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 03, 2022, 04:33:24 pm
One of the most important aides in No10, Munir Mirza, has resigned in protest at Johnson's shit-slinging over the Savile case.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/exclusive-boris-s-policy-chief-quits-over-jimmy-savile-slur

Telling that there are still people in here who cannot find it in themselves to criticise that disgusting bit of gutter politics.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ChrisBx on February 03, 2022, 04:34:06 pm
One of Johnson's closest advisors, Munira Mirza, has resigned following Johnson's reprehensible comments about the Jimmy Savile case. Her letter of resignation is damning also.

The tide is certainly turning against Johnson. I suspect a few more letters will be making their way to the chair of the 1922 Committee over the next couple of days.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 03, 2022, 04:53:22 pm
One of the most important aides in No10, Munir Mirza, has resigned in protest at Johnson's shit-slinging over the Savile case.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/exclusive-boris-s-policy-chief-quits-over-jimmy-savile-slur

Telling that there are still people in here who cannot find it in themselves to criticise that disgusting bit of gutter politics.
Do you really expect everyone ‘on here’ to type out their criticism of anything you mention, otherwise it will be assumed they think the opposite?
Do you realise just how many people ‘on here’ have not typed their criticism of that statement, regardless of their views?
Do you really believe that anyone who hasn’t criticised believes Johnson was right to say what he said?

Or was this just another attempt to play the WUM to one or two posters, probably just one?

I know which one my money’s on.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on February 03, 2022, 06:40:01 pm
One of Johnson's closest advisors, Munira Mirza, has resigned following Johnson's reprehensible comments about the Jimmy Savile case. Her letter of resignation is damning also.

The tide is certainly turning against Johnson. I suspect a few more letters will be making their way to the chair of the 1922 Committee over the next couple of days.

There are people on here who have never criticised Johnson. But they will attack people who do.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on February 03, 2022, 06:44:06 pm
Mizra's husband also works in No.10 (apparently the guy behind the 'War on Woke') but is also a big friend of Sunak. The news about Mizra was broken by the editor of the spectator, husband of Alegra Stratton, who is also a friend of Sunak.

“The palace coup is underway” said a source close to them. “The firing squad is assembling”.

https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1489265601688137728

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on February 03, 2022, 06:52:24 pm
One of the most important aides in No10, Munir Mirza, has resigned in protest at Johnson's shit-slinging over the Savile case.

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/exclusive-boris-s-policy-chief-quits-over-jimmy-savile-slur

Telling that there are still people in here who cannot find it in themselves to criticise that disgusting bit of gutter politics.
Do you really expect everyone ‘on here’ to type out their criticism of anything you mention, otherwise it will be assumed they think the opposite?
Do you realise just how many people ‘on here’ have not typed their criticism of that statement, regardless of their views?
Do you really believe that anyone who hasn’t criticised believes Johnson was right to say what he said?

Or was this just another attempt to play the WUM to one or two posters, probably just one?

I know which one my money’s on.

I totally agree with you belton.
Not everyone who dislikes Johnson will bother writing on here.
There are fewer and fewer people posting anyway because posts like that one by bst.
Ps: I have already passed my opinion of what Johnson should be doing now.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on February 03, 2022, 07:49:48 pm
3 more gone then.

Is this the first case of a dead cat causing rats to leave a sinking ship?

(Would like to take credit but nicked that from the internet btw)
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 03, 2022, 08:29:49 pm
this latest round all because Starmer gave him a lesson in reality at PMQs and a kneejerk response from a wounded johnson resulting further loss of cred and supporters ........ this from a man who is going to change and turn things around?

Oh. and a feeble attempt to row back on it, too late, much too late.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 03, 2022, 08:36:08 pm
''Four senior aides to Boris Johnson resign from No 10''

An avalanche


Get out and take the blame with you
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 03, 2022, 08:55:29 pm
Hard to see him surviving this.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on February 03, 2022, 09:07:29 pm
Hard to see him surviving this.

We keep saying this, but he has no shame, I’m sure if he’s kicked out he’ll refuse to leave Downing street
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 03, 2022, 09:10:13 pm
Hard to see him surviving this.

We keep saying this, but he has no shame, I’m sure if he’s kicked out he’ll refuse to leave Downing street
And then get his supporters to storm parliament and start a civil war.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on February 03, 2022, 09:22:28 pm
Hard to see him surviving this.

We keep saying this, but he has no shame, I’m sure if he’s kicked out he’ll refuse to leave Downing street
And then get his supporters to storm parliament and start a civil war.

I wouldn’t rule anything out with him
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Colin C No.3 on February 03, 2022, 10:16:51 pm
''Four senior aides to Boris Johnson resign from No 10''

An avalanche


Get out and take the blame with you
Now “..the bodies pile high” Boris, pile high on top of you.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: rich1471 on February 03, 2022, 10:32:50 pm
They will try and spin it ,Boris said he would make changes , look how fast it has happened , this will not be his fault as well
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 03, 2022, 11:47:53 pm
Munira Mirza

''You are aware of the reason for my decision: I believe it was wrong for you to imply this week that Keir Starmer was personally responsible for allowing Jimmy Savile to escape justice. There was no fair or reasonable basis for that assertion. This was not the normal cut-and-thrust of politics; it was an inappropriate and partisan reference to a horrendous case of child sex abuse. You tried to clarify your position today but, despite my urging, you did not apologise for the misleading impression you gave'' .....................

.................. ''Even now, I hope you find it in yourself to apologise for a grave error of judgement made under huge pressure. I appreciate that our political culture is not forgiving when people say sorry, but regardless, it is the right thing to do. It is not too late for you but, I’m sorry to say, it is too late for me''
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on February 04, 2022, 12:56:16 am
The Telegraphs top headline tonight is... The party is over, it's time to resign.

It goes without saying he won't, in fact he's planning on remaining in post until 2030. The Tory party need to kick him out now before he can do much more damage.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 04, 2022, 03:30:39 am
The Telegraphs top headline tonight is... The party is over, it's time to resign.

It goes without saying he won't, in fact he's planning on remaining in post until 2030. The Tory party need to kick him out now before he can do much more damage.

You can bet that headline won't be there in the morning RD
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Donnywolf on February 04, 2022, 05:56:31 am
What would happen then though ?

A vote of confidence in Johnson .... but would it simply be passed because on top of the 54 MPs submitting letters another 126 [ish] would have to join them to force a Leadership contest ?

OR do loads of them willingly join the anti Johnson gang. They might be lying low now unwilling to rock the boat and look traitors but they might get "brave" if they get chance

Personally I have no idea but just getting to 54 Letters wouldnt mean he was gone

He cant run for Leader again in short term - maybe never

If 54 submit their letters then it invokes an overall vote amongst the tories.
If he wins this he is secure for another year.
If he doesn’t, it goes to a leadership bun fight.

Hi NR - yes I was really asking what people thought if the 54 letters went in

Would they be the only dissenters and get nowhere near the 50pc they needed for Voc

Or

Would they having seen the opportunity to pile on to force a voc ?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: KeithMyath on February 04, 2022, 07:41:39 am
It must be hard for Tory MPs having been  completely implicit in Boris lies and mis deeds. To go from complete self sacrificing support to possible career ending betrayal to send in that letter. Most MP,s who fall on their swords and do the right thing rarely are seen as martyr's, it's a shame their isn't more examples of MP's doing just that who go on to become more prominent.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on February 04, 2022, 08:39:04 am
Another resignation this morning
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on February 04, 2022, 08:50:11 am
What would happen then though ?

A vote of confidence in Johnson .... but would it simply be passed because on top of the 54 MPs submitting letters another 126 [ish] would have to join them to force a Leadership contest ?

OR do loads of them willingly join the anti Johnson gang. They might be lying low now unwilling to rock the boat and look traitors but they might get "brave" if they get chance

Personally I have no idea but just getting to 54 Letters wouldnt mean he was gone

He cant run for Leader again in short term - maybe never

If 54 submit their letters then it invokes an overall vote amongst the tories.
If he wins this he is secure for another year.
If he doesn’t, it goes to a leadership bun fight.

Hi NR - yes I was really asking what people thought if the 54 letters went in

Would they be the only dissenters and get nowhere near the 50pc they needed for Voc

Or

Would they having seen the opportunity to pile on to force a voc ?

If the 54 threshold is met, I reckon it will open the floodgates. Create an environment where other Tory MPs feel safer to tread.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 04, 2022, 08:58:36 am
Agree with that one
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Donnywolf on February 04, 2022, 09:17:02 am
What would happen then though ?

A vote of confidence in Johnson .... but would it simply be passed because on top of the 54 MPs submitting letters another 126 [ish] would have to join them to force a Leadership contest ?

OR do loads of them willingly join the anti Johnson gang. They might be lying low now unwilling to rock the boat and look traitors but they might get "brave" if they get chance

Personally I have no idea but just getting to 54 Letters wouldnt mean he was gone

He cant run for Leader again in short term - maybe never

If 54 submit their letters then it invokes an overall vote amongst the tories.
If he wins this he is secure for another year.
If he doesn’t, it goes to a leadership bun fight.

Hi NR - yes I was really asking what people thought if the 54 letters went in

Would they be the only dissenters and get nowhere near the 50pc they needed for Voc

Or

Would they having seen the opportunity to pile on to force a voc ?

If the 54 threshold is met, I reckon it will open the floodgates. Create an environment where other Tory MPs feel safer to tread.

... my thoughts exactly. From hiding "safely" in the shadows they could rush into the light [safety in numbers]
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on February 04, 2022, 09:17:54 am
What would happen then though ?

A vote of confidence in Johnson .... but would it simply be passed because on top of the 54 MPs submitting letters another 126 [ish] would have to join them to force a Leadership contest ?

OR do loads of them willingly join the anti Johnson gang. They might be lying low now unwilling to rock the boat and look traitors but they might get "brave" if they get chance

Personally I have no idea but just getting to 54 Letters wouldnt mean he was gone

He cant run for Leader again in short term - maybe never

If 54 submit their letters then it invokes an overall vote amongst the tories.
If he wins this he is secure for another year.
If he doesn’t, it goes to a leadership bun fight.

Hi NR - yes I was really asking what people thought if the 54 letters went in

Would they be the only dissenters and get nowhere near the 50pc they needed for Voc

Or

Would they having seen the opportunity to pile on to force a voc ?

If the 54 threshold is met, I reckon it will open the floodgates. Create an environment where other Tory MPs feel safer to tread.

I think that is very fair NR.
Boris is increasingly looking like toast as each week passes by.
The point about Tory MPs needing to feel safer before committing themselves to voting to remove Boris is probably what is happening.
Most people wouldn’t want to be seen going against their leader and having to suffer the consequences later if things didn't go the way they had wanted.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Donnywolf on February 04, 2022, 10:20:41 am
.... or look like they can't be trusted in the future if Sunak or whoever takes over and the MP is hoping to be " spotted" when he does and has eyes on a Ministry SO State job

I am sure there is lots of positioning going off and posturing

Sunak for instance with this mornings reported Sun statement looking like an "I'm your man" notification imo
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 04, 2022, 10:47:42 am
dilyn just quit
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 04, 2022, 11:05:16 am
Johnson is in the final stages of crisis mode now.

It appears that the three "resignations" that came after Mirza went were basically sacrifices of people from his team to show that Johnson is making good on his promise to clear out the people "responsible" for Partygate. But Mirza's resignation rushed him into doing this sooner than planned, and as far as I can see, the No 10 operation as a day to day management of Govt is now in absolute chaos with the senior management decapitated.

He's reacting to the incoming blows rather than pro-actively controlling the agenda. I cannot think of a single example of a PM that has lost control to this extent and pulled things round.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on February 04, 2022, 11:27:55 am
Those that know anything about how government works understand that while Bojo is a blithering buffoon, he is merely a figurehead. A mouthpiece. Those behind him, those at no 10, who advise and counsel him and the cabinet, the highest level civil servants are the ones that truly run this country.
For no 10 to be heamoraging these key people now shows some very deep seated issues in there. And I don’t think for a minute these are scapegoats that have been pushed. These are key individuals who have left of their own accord. Not before they were pushed. Not before they have been publicly strung out as bad apples.
No, they have left because of Boris. They have had enough of him.
Mirza has been cited to be bojos “brain” . So he has now officially lost his mind.
It’s time he lost his post as PM.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 04, 2022, 11:34:58 am
The only further thing that could happen today would be more resignations, big dog won't be seen out of the bunker.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on February 04, 2022, 11:47:06 am
Did anyone notice that serial failure Lynton Crosby has been re-appointed by Boris?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on February 04, 2022, 11:56:15 am
Did anyone notice that serial failure Lynton Crosby has been re-appointed by Boris?

Good grief. Conservative politics about to get even more messy.
He is well known for his controversial tactics. I wonder what controversial or divisive social issue he will get Bojo to latch onto?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 04, 2022, 12:26:51 pm
It could potentially get very unpleasant.

You have to remember that Johnson isn't a conventional Tory, for whom the good of the Party is uppermost.

He's in it for himself and himself only.

And he's not the sort of conventional politician who has a threshold where there's a limit where extreme behaviour becomes too much to contemplate because they have personal pride.

He's had affairs that everyone knows about. He was happy to be ridiculed on HIGNFY because it served his purpose
 He didn't worry about looking a prick when he was stuck on the zip wire in London because it served his purpose. He doesn't care that everyone knows when he lies, because the lies serve his purpose and he has no sense of shame.

Put those two aspects of his personality together and see what they make. He'll crash and burn everything if he thinks it gives him a chance of surviving as PM.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 04, 2022, 07:34:27 pm
The gov't has been force to give up the messaging between Paterson and Hancock, not a good read, can they be prosecuted?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 04, 2022, 08:44:26 pm
''Boris Johnson still has control of Downing Street after a string of close aides quit their jobs, his official spokesman has insisted.

Mr Johnson quoted The Lion King as he attempted to rally remaining staff, telling them "change is good"''

???????????
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on February 04, 2022, 09:08:49 pm
I'm no great fan of Starmer by any means but I have to say he was on the end of possibly the lowest attack from a PM of this country I've ever heard .

Absolutely despicable .

People who were around him are starting to distance themselves from him which to be honest takes some doing with the Conservative Party .

Reminds me of 1945 and the allies from the West and East closing in on Berlin .

Almost everyone of Hitler's close team did one and left him in the bunker to shoot himself in the head .

It's actually pathetic to see him trying to soldier on .





Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on February 04, 2022, 09:10:17 pm
''Boris Johnson still has control of Downing Street after a string of close aides quit their jobs, his official spokesman has insisted.

Mr Johnson quoted The Lion King as he attempted to rally remaining staff, telling them "change is good"''

???????????

Was that the lion king or the lying king?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on February 04, 2022, 09:18:31 pm
If you are going to hold a birthday party when other people are not allowed to go to a relatives funeral - probably best not to take your official photographer along...

EXCL: Police have a photo of Boris Johnson holding a can of a beer at his lockdown birthday party in June 2020 - taken by his taxpayer funded official photographe

https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1489696594576486405
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on February 04, 2022, 09:59:10 pm
If you are going to hold a birthday party when other people are not allowed to go to a relatives funeral - probably best not to take your official photographer along...

EXCL: Police have a photo of Boris Johnson holding a can of a beer at his lockdown birthday party in June 2020 - taken by his taxpayer funded official photographe

https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1489696594576486405

He didn’t realise he was a photographer

No one told him
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 04, 2022, 10:09:37 pm
Meanwhile.

https://mobile.twitter.com/nytopinion/status/1489566060328198148
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: rich1471 on February 04, 2022, 10:13:41 pm
If you are going to hold a birthday party when other people are not allowed to go to a relatives funeral - probably best not to take your official photographer along...

EXCL: Police have a photo of Boris Johnson holding a can of a beer at his lockdown birthday party in June 2020 - taken by his taxpayer funded official photographe

https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1489696594576486405

He didn’t realise he was a photographer

No one told him
He was holding it for a friend ,not his of course
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 04, 2022, 10:20:52 pm
Meanwhile.

https://mobile.twitter.com/nytopinion/status/1489566060328198148

Can't wait for bb's critique he loves a good belly laugh does our man of mirth.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on February 04, 2022, 11:29:44 pm
If you are going to hold a birthday party when other people are not allowed to go to a relatives funeral - probably best not to take your official photographer along...

EXCL: Police have a photo of Boris Johnson holding a can of a beer at his lockdown birthday party in June 2020 - taken by his taxpayer funded official photographe

https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/status/1489696594576486405

He didn’t realise he was a photographer

No one told him
He was holding it for a friend ,not his of course

He thought it was a work beer, not a party beer.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: rich1471 on February 04, 2022, 11:34:42 pm
Richi was next to him holding a soft drink ,FFS did not know we could all  have had a party if it was soft drinks only ,who in their right mind invites a photographer to party in lockdown
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on February 04, 2022, 11:39:58 pm
As the photographer is paid for by the public, I think the public have a right to demand to see all the photographs they've taken.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: albie on February 05, 2022, 12:07:37 am
Did anyone notice that serial failure Lynton Crosby has been re-appointed by Boris?

Coincidences abound!

The Saville incident is a classic move from the Lynton Crosby playbook, create a meme, run with it and add further detritus.

More to come if Crosby remains.
This is the real reason for the departure of Mirza IMHO.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Colin C No.3 on February 05, 2022, 12:39:19 am
I will.

“Mr Speaker, while Captain Hindsight blathers on about things, things, things the British people no longer listen to…I..we..this government has been responsible for a 14% rise, a 14% rise..& yes, my learned friend may well shake his head, may well shake his head Mr Speaker, but he & his party….he can laugh, he can laugh. His party….let me shuffle my papers Mr Speaker..I have it here..here it is Mr Speaker, this note was left by his outgoing Labour government Mr Speaker, when they..when they were thrown out of office & it reads Mr Speaker….”The coke has all gone”……no..no…sorry, erm forgive me, forgive me..it’s here somewhere….are yes…here it is Mr Speaker, “We’ve spent all the money!” All the money Mr Speaker..& so I ask you, he may shake his head Mr Speaker, I ask you….if all the money was spent, how then could I…or indeed we…us….My Right Honourable Friend’s have afforded a party!?”.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 05, 2022, 01:56:03 am
Does the tory party have a ceremonial dagger or can you byo?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Donnywolf on February 05, 2022, 04:45:13 am
I will.

“Mr Speaker, while Captain Hindsight blathers on about things, things, things the British people no longer listen to…I..we..this government has been responsible for a 14% rise, a 14% rise..& yes, my learned friend may well shake his head, may well shake his head Mr Speaker, but he & his party….he can laugh, he can laugh. His party….let me shuffle my papers Mr Speaker..I have it here..here it is Mr Speaker, this note was left by his outgoing Labour government Mr Speaker, when they..when they were thrown out of office & it reads Mr Speaker….”The coke has all gone”……no..no…sorry, erm forgive me, forgive me..it’s here somewhere….are yes…here it is Mr Speaker, “We’ve spent all the money!” All the money Mr Speaker..& so I ask you, he may shake his head Mr Speaker, I ask you….if all the money was spent, how then could I…or indeed we…us….My Right Honourable Friend’s have afforded a party!?”.

Brilliant Ccn3 just perfect

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on February 05, 2022, 08:36:40 am
Richi was next to him holding a soft drink ,FFS did not know we could all  have had a party if it was soft drinks only ,who in their right mind invites a photographer to party in lockdown

Nah, can't have been. He gave an interview to the BBC the other day where he said he had no knowledge of any parties and definitely hadn't attended any. Just like he has'n't given £4 billion of taxpayers money to foreign criminals.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on February 05, 2022, 08:41:03 am
“Mr Speaker, no one told me there was beer in that beer can”
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on February 05, 2022, 09:54:43 am
Someone should point out to Bunter and Mogg that it was Heath who gave Saville an OBE and it was under Thatcher that he received his knighthood .

Thatcher actually pushed for it despite advisors at the time telling her there were strong rumours surrounding his character .
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Colin C No.3 on February 05, 2022, 11:25:57 am
Someone should point out to Bunter and Mogg that it was Heath who gave Saville an OBE and it was under Thatcher that he received his knighthood .

Thatcher actually pushed for it despite advisors at the time telling her there were strong rumours surrounding his character .
“Jimmy did a great deal of good as well as wrong. In anybody’s life, you must look at both sides of the ledger”.

Norman Tebbit.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ColinDouglasHandshake on February 05, 2022, 11:30:26 am
Looks like Bozo will be staying put. After everything he's done and overseen he is still backed by members of his own parliament and a lot of the general public. He should have been long gone by now but he isn't. Just sums up the lack of integrity that many people and politicians have and if they have it, they are also prepared to accept it from others and put up with it.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on February 05, 2022, 11:40:58 am
Looks like Bozo will be staying put. After everything he's done and overseen he is still backed by members of his own parliament and a lot of the general public. He should have been long gone by now but he isn't. Just sums up the lack of integrity that many people and politicians have and if they have it, they are also prepared to accept it from others and put up with it.

Given the drip-drip-drip revelation tactics so far it's hard to know how much more is yet to come out. And the more it does, the more his backbenchers' patience with him will deteriorate.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 05, 2022, 11:51:13 am
Looks like Bozo will be staying put. After everything he's done and overseen he is still backed by members of his own parliament and a lot of the general public. He should have been long gone by now but he isn't. Just sums up the lack of integrity that many people and politicians have and if they have it, they are also prepared to accept it from others and put up with it.

I think you might be confusing lack of integrity with loyalty.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ColinDouglasHandshake on February 05, 2022, 12:02:10 pm
Looks like Bozo will be staying put. After everything he's done and overseen he is still backed by members of his own parliament and a lot of the general public. He should have been long gone by now but he isn't. Just sums up the lack of integrity that many people and politicians have and if they have it, they are also prepared to accept it from others and put up with it.

I think you might be confusing lack of integrity with loyalty.

No. I'm clear. A lack of integrity. Anyone supporting this PM has a lack of integrity. That is quite clear.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 05, 2022, 12:07:36 pm
Looks like Bozo will be staying put. After everything he's done and overseen he is still backed by members of his own parliament and a lot of the general public. He should have been long gone by now but he isn't. Just sums up the lack of integrity that many people and politicians have and if they have it, they are also prepared to accept it from others and put up with it.

I think you might be confusing lack of integrity with loyalty.

Oh! Bless!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: idler on February 05, 2022, 12:09:49 pm
The PM is probably the only person that knows the full extent of his misdeeds. He must be wondering who knows exactly what he has done and when or if it will become public knowledge.
There must be a final straw hidden somewhere.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 05, 2022, 12:27:25 pm
Looks like Bozo will be staying put. After everything he's done and overseen he is still backed by members of his own parliament and a lot of the general public. He should have been long gone by now but he isn't. Just sums up the lack of integrity that many people and politicians have and if they have it, they are also prepared to accept it from others and put up with it.

I think you might be confusing lack of integrity with loyalty.

No. I'm clear. A lack of integrity. Anyone supporting this PM has a lack of integrity. That is quite clear.
That may be quite clear to you, but it obviously isn't to those who are loyal to him.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 05, 2022, 01:24:38 pm
BB

Where have you been for the last two decades?

Loyality and Johnson have as much in common as space travel and seahorses.

Johnson left his f**king wife for a woman half his age after his wife was diagnosed with cancer. He has a kid by one mistress that he's never publicly acknowledged.

He's just chucked a slur about a paedophile at a man who was managing the prosecution of criminals while Johnson was getting sacked for making up a story in a paper, then getting sacked again for yet more infidelities.

Nobody who knows anything about him ever has the concept of "loyalty" ever cross their minds. They know he'd sacrifice his own kids if he thought it would help his career.

His closest political friend has just resigned in disgust at what he has done with the Savile slur. You cannot find it in yourself to criticise him. That says everything. And you talk about f**king loyalty!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ColinDouglasHandshake on February 05, 2022, 01:31:39 pm
Looks like Bozo will be staying put. After everything he's done and overseen he is still backed by members of his own parliament and a lot of the general public. He should have been long gone by now but he isn't. Just sums up the lack of integrity that many people and politicians have and if they have it, they are also prepared to accept it from others and put up with it.

I think you might be confusing lack of integrity with loyalty.

No. I'm clear. A lack of integrity. Anyone supporting this PM has a lack of integrity. That is quite clear.
That may be quite clear to you, but it obviously isn't to those who are loyal to him.

Well they're f**king dumb then aren't they? That much IS obvious. If you stick by a bloke who has such an atrocious track record of lying, cheating, obfuscating and talking b*llocks then it stands to reason that these people must be thick as pigshit. Either that, or they have something personal to gain out of it, which again compromises their integrity.

So they are either stupid or lack integrity themselves. All 97% of them.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on February 05, 2022, 01:42:02 pm
Looks like Bozo will be staying put. After everything he's done and overseen he is still backed by members of his own parliament and a lot of the general public. He should have been long gone by now but he isn't. Just sums up the lack of integrity that many people and politicians have and if they have it, they are also prepared to accept it from others and put up with it.

I think you might be confusing lack of integrity with loyalty.

No. I'm clear. A lack of integrity. Anyone supporting this PM has a lack of integrity. That is quite clear.
That may be quite clear to you, but it obviously isn't to those who are loyal to him.

Quite right. A lot of them are probably loyal to him because having a lying, unprincipled scoundrel as PM is exactly what they want.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 05, 2022, 01:57:56 pm
What says everything is you've never understood my whole point in getting involved with you and your biased, one-sided political views. As I've said umpteen times, it's not what I think that matters. What does matter (to me anyway) is that I try to address the balance.

I've also said all along that you would have defended your beloved Labour party all the way if it had acted in exactly the same way as this government has, and in fact, you've shown your true colours by defending Starmer's lies over the EU vaccine programme, and his backstabbing of Corbyn.

Those loyal to Johnson are claiming that his attack on Starmer regarding the Savile case was in response to Starmer's apology regarding his responsibility towards it because he was Director of Public Prosecutions at the time. They claim that Johnson is being attacked for apologising about Partygate in the same way, and if he should resign, why didn't Starmer?

As I said, had it been the other way round, you Labour lot would have!

Regarding the resignations, maybe some of them have gone to save their own skin?

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on February 05, 2022, 01:58:34 pm
Looks like Bozo will be staying put. After everything he's done and overseen he is still backed by members of his own parliament and a lot of the general public. He should have been long gone by now but he isn't. Just sums up the lack of integrity that many people and politicians have and if they have it, they are also prepared to accept it from others and put up with it.

I think you might be confusing lack of integrity with loyalty.

No. I'm clear. A lack of integrity. Anyone supporting this PM has a lack of integrity. That is quite clear.
That may be quite clear to you, but it obviously isn't to those who are loyal to him.

Quite right. A lot of them are probably loyal to him because having a lying, unprincipled scoundrel as PM is exactly what they want.

Yes agreed. I have said before that I don't think people like Johnson despite him being a lying charlatan, they like him BECAUSE he is a lying charlatan.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: rich1471 on February 05, 2022, 02:00:29 pm
I don't understand why they would try and defend him ,He would replace anyone of them around him to save his own skin
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on February 05, 2022, 02:01:03 pm
All that blather could have been said in just seven words.

"I'm only here to argue the toss".

And most of us have known that for ages. You've told everybody enough times FFS.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 05, 2022, 02:02:55 pm
You are simply beyond hope BB.

f**king risible.

I don't know what is the more disturbing.

That you genuinely DO believe the EU vaccination issue shoes that Starmer is a liar. In which case your bias has unhinged you.

Or you don't actually believe it, in which case you are the WUM you've always been.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on February 05, 2022, 02:04:22 pm
And they wont broke any criticism of him. Instead they will obfuscate, use false equivalence, attempt to deflect the blame and use false equivalence - just like he does.

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on February 05, 2022, 02:06:37 pm
BB neither knows nor cares whether what he says is right, just as long as it's the complete opposite of someone else.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ColinDouglasHandshake on February 05, 2022, 02:08:16 pm
What says everything is you've never understood my whole point in getting involved with you and your biased, one-sided political views. As I've said umpteen times, it's not what I think that matters. What does matter (to me anyway) is that I try to address the balance.

I've also said all along that you would have defended your beloved Labour party all the way if it had acted in exactly the same way as this government has, and in fact, you've shown your true colours by defending Starmer's lies over the EU vaccine programme, and his backstabbing of Corbyn.

Those loyal to Johnson are claiming that his attack on Starmer regarding the Savile case was in response to Starmer's apology regarding his responsibility towards it because he was Director of Public Prosecutions at the time. They claim that Johnson is being attacked for apologising about Partygate in the same way, and if he should resign, why didn't Starmer?

As I said, had it been the other way round, you Labour lot would have!

Regarding the resignations, maybe some of them have gone to save their own skin?

I despise the Tories but under Labour, we'd be well in the shit. Both parties are a comedy show.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 05, 2022, 02:12:51 pm
You are simply beyond hope BB.

f**king risible.

I don't know what is the more disturbing.

That you genuinely DO believe the EU vaccination issue shoes that Starmer is a liar. In which case your bias has unhinged you.

Or you don't actually believe it, in which case you are the WUM you've always been.
I understand your disbelief Billy lad, the difference between someone attempting to shorten the gap between level-headedness and your biased, one-sided bullshit is probably a bridge too far.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 05, 2022, 02:13:30 pm
And your trotting out of that disgusting justification for the disgusting slur is as disgusting as I'd expect from someone as biassed as you.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 05, 2022, 02:15:26 pm
......A bridge too far.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on February 05, 2022, 02:17:00 pm
......A bridge too far.


...with BB as the troll underneath it.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 05, 2022, 02:23:22 pm
Ooh, you're such a master baiter, Mr Wiggerly.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 05, 2022, 02:29:38 pm
BB

This equating of Savile and Partygate.

I KNOW you get this but I'll still spell it out for you, you WUM.

Starmer apologised for institutional mistakes. He had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the Savile decision.

Johnson is TRYING to make Partygate an institutional thing. But he was THERE. He was AT THE f**kING PARTIES.

As I say, I do get that you get this. I'm just setting this out for the record. As yet another example of your ridiculous bias leading you to draw totally ridiculous (and, in this case, utterly disgusting) equivalences.

If you just want to support a Kitson like Johnson, be man enough to come out and say so. Instead of trying to draw these false equivalences to justify your decision to support a lying, cheating obscenity.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 05, 2022, 02:41:49 pm
JOHNSON WASN'T AT ALL THE f**kING PARTIES. He spent time at the dispatch box taking responsibility for parties taking place when he wasn't there and had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with.

 Why didn't Starmer hold back on his criticism of this, on reflection of his similar situation regarding the Savile case?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 05, 2022, 02:47:22 pm
Johnson was at at least four of the parties that police are investigating. He lied to Parliament about that.

Your bias means that you are incapable of dealing with that. You're not man enough to accept the failing of your man. It's embarrassing to witness.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 05, 2022, 02:48:56 pm
ANSWER THE QUESTION MAN. JUST FOR ONCE.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 05, 2022, 02:51:04 pm
What Johnson is implicitly doing is this.

He's saying "You know I'm a Kitson. I know I'm a Kitson. But I'm going to give you a reason to still support me. I'm going to give you something to cling onto. An argument you can use. It's this. Let's just claim EVERY politician is a lying Kitson. Then I'm no difference. I know this will destroy the basis of civilised politics. But f**k it eh? As long as the other side loses."

That's the Koolaid you're quaffing BB.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 05, 2022, 02:51:36 pm
There isn't a question to answer, you f**king embarrassment.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 05, 2022, 02:51:48 pm
ANSWER THE f**kING QUESTION.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 05, 2022, 02:59:16 pm
There isn't a question to answer, you f**king embarrassment, because there is no equivalence between the two situations. What you're doing is precisely what I've just posted. And you are not, and never will be man enough to acknowledge what you are doing.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on February 05, 2022, 03:10:30 pm
Ooh, you're such a master baiter, Mr Wiggerly.

Ah, the traditional BB descent into personal insults when he's run out of things to say. More see-through than a Boris apology.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 05, 2022, 03:11:00 pm
I merely asked a question that could quite reasonably be asked by a TV interviewer. Would you accuse the interviewer of being what you're accusing me?

Imagine the scenario:

TV Interviewer:
Tonight we have the right honourable William Stubbs, leader of the Britain Surrendering Together party:

"Mr Stubbs, why didn't Kier Starmer hold back on his criticism of Boris Johnson over number 10 parties that took place in his absence, on reflection of his similar situation regarding the Savile case?"

The right honarable BST:

"There isn't a question to answer, you f**king embarrassment."
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 05, 2022, 03:12:01 pm
Ooh, you're such a master baiter, Mr Wiggerly.

Ah, the traditional BB descent into personal insults when he's run out of things to say. More see-through than a Boris apology.

Apologies for calling you a master baiter, Mr Wiggerly. I thought you already knew.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 05, 2022, 03:56:42 pm
No interviewer would ever ask that question. Because they have professional pride. You should listen to how interviewers have responded this week. A dam has broken. They've finally dropped the bothsidesism and shown frankly how disgusted they are

You, meanwhile, biassed idiot that you are, insist on false equivalences.

I do wonder how low Johnson would have to sink for you ever to criticise him.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 05, 2022, 04:06:09 pm
Bentley. Stop being a biased idiot. Do you ever see any other biased idiots on here?
Whilst you’re at it, stop asking questions. Do you ever see anyone else on here asking questions?

If you can’t engage in grown up politics without insulting people then don’t. You idiot.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 05, 2022, 06:21:45 pm
See if you can guess who once said this:

"The tragedy of the stooge is that . . . he wants so much to believe that his relationship with the candidate is special that he shuts out the truth. The terrible art of the candidate is to coddle the self-deception of the stooge."
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 05, 2022, 06:30:47 pm
See if you can guess who once said this:

"The tragedy of the stooge is that . . . he wants so much to believe that his relationship with the candidate is special that he shuts out the truth. The terrible art of the candidate is to coddle the self-deception of the stooge."

Sydney?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on February 05, 2022, 06:47:59 pm
See if you can guess who once said this:

"The tragedy of the stooge is that . . . he wants so much to believe that his relationship with the candidate is special that he shuts out the truth. The terrible art of the candidate is to coddle the self-deception of the stooge."

Sydney?

Nah, it is an articulate sentence.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 05, 2022, 08:42:54 pm
''Give me back my £200,000, major donor tells Tories
Controversial telecoms mogul Mohamed Amersi takes on Conservative party over exclusion from elite gatherings and auction prizes never received''

Would you accept a candlelit dinner with bb and hound as a booby prize?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/05/give-me-back-my-200000-major-donor-tells-tories
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on February 05, 2022, 08:49:57 pm
''Give me back my £200,000, major donor tells Tories
Controversial telecoms mogul Mohamed Amersi takes on Conservative party over exclusion from elite gatherings and auction prizes never received''

Would you accept a candlelit dinner with bb and hound as a booby prize?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/05/give-me-back-my-200000-major-donor-tells-tories

I think you made that last bit up.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 05, 2022, 08:50:04 pm
Steven Barclay as new chief of staff and Guto Harri director of communications, both on zero hours contracts, there's a certain irony in that aye?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 05, 2022, 08:58:51 pm
''Nadine Dorries rides the airwaves to back PM amid ‘partygate’ row''

trying to out-do the Jonathon Pie sketch

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/05/nadine-dorries-rides-the-airwaves-to-back-pm-amid-partygate-row

the poor people of Gloucestershire
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 05, 2022, 09:42:21 pm
Dorries always looks like she's on whizz. The way her head bounces back all over the place as she speaks.

Apparently Anthony Eden was fuelled up on speed during the Suez Crisis. And it pretty much broke him when he came down. He was shuffled off to the West Indies to get his head back together.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 05, 2022, 10:05:27 pm
They show a 'best of' reel of all the latest videos on South Parade once a week
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on February 05, 2022, 10:20:36 pm
''Nadine Dorries rides the airwaves to back PM amid ‘partygate’ row''

trying to out-do the Jonathon Pie sketch

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/05/nadine-dorries-rides-the-airwaves-to-back-pm-amid-partygate-row

the poor people of Gloucestershire

That may be so. Although what they have done to have the MP for Mid-Bedfordshire, about 80 miles away, living there lord knows.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 05, 2022, 10:27:14 pm
They show a 'best of' reel of all the latest videos on South Parade once a week

Do you still go to the film nights selby?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 06, 2022, 07:01:06 pm
''Nadine Dorries rides the airwaves to back PM amid ‘partygate’ row''

trying to out-do the Jonathon Pie sketch

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/feb/05/nadine-dorries-rides-the-airwaves-to-back-pm-amid-partygate-row

the poor people of Gloucestershire

You have to love the Internet.

https://mobile.twitter.com/BarryNormal1/status/1490046722394968065
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 07, 2022, 02:55:10 am
Led by Donkeys fb

''Know any great freelance reporters, news producers or researchers? If so we'd love to hear from them?''

reply

''Gordon Thompson
I believe a columnist for such titles as the Spectator and the Daily Telegraph may well have some availability coming up soon.
He's great at parties but can't organise one''
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: mugnapper on February 07, 2022, 01:42:11 pm
BBC News - Boris Johnson sang 'I Will Survive' to new communications chief Guto Harri
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60289339

What do you all think of this?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ColinDouglasHandshake on February 07, 2022, 01:49:42 pm
Par for the course with this excuse for a human. So gutted he didn't die of Covid. Hate the man.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: mugnapper on February 07, 2022, 02:18:29 pm
Sounds like the new man will fit right into the party atmosphere in Downing Street.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on February 07, 2022, 03:25:18 pm
BBC News - Boris Johnson sang 'I Will Survive' to new communications chief Guto Harri
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60289339

What do you all think of this?


The lyric that springs to mind is:

So now go, walk out the door
Just turnaround now
Cause you're not welcome anymore.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: mugnapper on February 07, 2022, 03:32:00 pm
BBC News - Boris Johnson sang 'I Will Survive' to new communications chief Guto Harri
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60289339

What do you all think of this?


The lyric that springs to mind is:

So now go, walk out the door
Just turnaround now
Cause you're not welcome anymore.
I think you should send that to Starmer before PMQ's!!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on February 07, 2022, 03:35:04 pm
So if Carrie Antoinette doesn't get invloved in politics what was she doing at the "meeting" in the garden
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on February 07, 2022, 03:36:30 pm
I mean, obviously the best way to reassure us the party is over, is to do it in the form of a disco anthem.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Donnywolf on February 07, 2022, 03:46:26 pm
BBC News - Boris Johnson sang 'I Will Survive' to new communications chief Guto Harri
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60289339

What do you all think of this?


The lyric that springs to mind is:

So now go, walk out the door
Just turnaround now
Cause you're not welcome anymore.
I think you should send that to Starmer before PMQ's!!

Then Sir Ian Black Ford could sing the chorus from The Boxer by Simon & Garfunkel

LIE,LIE,LIE
LIE,LIE,LIE,LIE,LIE,LIE,LIE
LIE,LIE,LIE

Mr Speaker couldn't do a thing cos SIB could say it's "la" but just sounds like "lie" with my accent
 
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 07, 2022, 04:56:07 pm
Starmer needs all the material he can get because he's probably the most insipid, witless, characterless, uninspiring wet lettuce ever to lead a political party.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ColinDouglasHandshake on February 07, 2022, 05:09:45 pm
Starmer needs all the material he can get because he's probably the most insipid, witless, characterless, uninspiring wet lettuce ever to lead a political party.

Now that i CAN agree with.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 07, 2022, 05:27:34 pm
Starmer needs all the material he can get because he's probably the most insipid, witless, characterless, uninspiring wet lettuce ever to lead a political party.

I knew he’d win you over, eventually.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on February 07, 2022, 05:56:50 pm
Starmer needs all the material he can get because he's probably the most insipid, witless, characterless, uninspiring wet lettuce ever to lead a political party.

I think that's being unfair on John Major.

Theresa May will be disapointed too.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 07, 2022, 07:39:00 pm
Major and May might have been dull, but they were leaders with policies. Starmer is just a prosecutor with no policies, and from what I've seen he's pretty shite at prosecuting too.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on February 07, 2022, 07:49:23 pm
Yes the fascists seem to think so to BB. You must be so proud

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1490754883724713987
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 07, 2022, 07:50:48 pm
So. No bias there then from BB.

And no understanding of the economic policy that Labour's Shadow Chancellor had been setting out over the last few months.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 07, 2022, 07:52:17 pm
Major and May might have been dull, but they were leaders with policies. Starmer is just a prosecutor with no policies, and from what I've seen he's pretty shite at prosecuting too.

Major sleeze, is that the man you are referring too, has quite a bit in common with johnson?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 07, 2022, 07:54:27 pm
Yes the fascists seem to think so to BB. You must be so proud

https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1490754883724713987


Steady on Wilts. Maybe it's just a bunch of decent folk showing how loyal they are to Johnson.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 07, 2022, 08:14:29 pm
I mean, obviously the best way to reassure us the party is over, is to do it in the form of a disco anthem.

or this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xA7wXVfTWA0
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 07, 2022, 08:28:53 pm
Johnson has been caught out republishing the magna carta and claiming it as a new bill of rights.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on February 07, 2022, 08:41:31 pm
Major and May might have been dull, but they were leaders with policies. Starmer is just a prosecutor with no policies, and from what I've seen he's pretty shite at prosecuting too.

Any particular case he was shite at?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on February 07, 2022, 08:42:52 pm
Johnson has been caught out republishing the magna carta and claiming it as a new bill of rights.

Have you got a link to that.
 :lol:
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 07, 2022, 08:52:33 pm
Johnson has been caught out republishing the magna carta and claiming it as a new bill of rights.

Have you got a link to that.
 :lol:

Not a chance. As you might expect to associate with Sydney - it’s the missing link.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 07, 2022, 09:11:26 pm
Major and May might have been dull, but they were leaders with policies. Starmer is just a prosecutor with no policies, and from what I've seen he's pretty shite at prosecuting too.

Any particular case he was shite at?
I'm referring to his role as prosecutor to the Tories at the despatch box.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 07, 2022, 09:15:39 pm
Major and May might have been dull, but they were leaders with policies. Starmer is just a prosecutor with no policies, and from what I've seen he's pretty shite at prosecuting too.

Any particular case he was shite at?
I'm referring to his role as prosecutor to the Tories at the despatch box.

Sounds a bit hound, what I write means what want it to mean
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on February 07, 2022, 09:46:46 pm
Major and May might have been dull, but they were leaders with policies. Starmer is just a prosecutor with no policies, and from what I've seen he's pretty shite at prosecuting too.

Any particular case he was shite at?
I'm referring to his role as prosecutor to the Tories at the despatch box.

Sounds a bit hound, what I write means what want it to mean

"Humpty Dumpty took the book and looked at it carefully. 'That seems to be done right —' he began.

'You're holding it upside down!' Alice interrupted.

'To be sure I was!' Humpty Dumpty said gaily as she turned it round for him. 'I thought it looked a little queer. As I was saying, that seems to be done right — though I haven't time to look it over thoroughly just now — and that shows that there are three hundred and sixty-four days when you might get un-birthday presents —'

'Certainly,' said Alice.

'And only one for birthday presents, you know. There's glory for you!'

'I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. 'Of course you don't — till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

'But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument",' Alice objected.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less."
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 07, 2022, 09:56:29 pm
"Alice?" Who the f**k is "Alice?"
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 09, 2022, 10:42:04 am
just as you think it has died down ..... it flares up again, I thought maybe when ridicule became as prevalent as anger it was time, but now abandonment of brand johnson by sponsors is mounting up, when major sponsors abandon ship it has to be close.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: rich1471 on February 09, 2022, 12:25:34 pm
Another photo has emerged on the 15th of December 2020 surrounded by beer ,food and with Boris having tinsel on him ,This is not one of the parties already been investigated
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on February 09, 2022, 02:10:38 pm
The latest work event picture features an open bottle of Veuve Clicquot, tinsel, a santa hat and if you look closely a security camera wrapped in fabric, perhaps a scarf.

Nothing suspect there then. Veueve Cliquot being a standard, everyday office champagne.

Apparently this one isn't conclusive enough for the investigation to bother with.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: rich1471 on February 09, 2022, 02:51:30 pm
The latest work event picture features an open bottle of Veuve Clicquot, tinsel, a santa hat and if you look closely a security camera wrapped in fabric, perhaps a scarf.

Nothing suspect there then. Veueve Cliquot being a standard, everyday office champagne.

Apparently this one isn't conclusive enough for the investigation to bother with.
Its the way the crisps are open for all to share and it looks like a black plastic bag covering the camera
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on February 09, 2022, 05:53:33 pm
Radio 5 are saying the police have decided they need to look into this event after all.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 09, 2022, 08:52:02 pm
This is the way of the tory party under johnson, those that defend him and events end up looking like dicks
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: idler on February 09, 2022, 09:05:01 pm
The amazing thing is that surely he must have known about events that he did attend and seen others taking pictures?
To deny knowing about them or attending them just makes him look an even bigger fool.
It was like Chemical Ali denying American tanks being in Baghdad when they were in shot behind him as he spoke.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on February 09, 2022, 09:07:36 pm
According to Tory MP and new Leader of the Commons Mark Spencer 'real people' in the 'real world' don't care about No. 10s lockdown parties.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60318610

As a real person who, unlike Mr Spencer, lives in the real world I beg to differ.

Assuming the PM hangs on that long Mr Spencer, I suspect, will be in for a shock when the results from the upcoming local elections are declared.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 09, 2022, 09:32:53 pm
Yep everyday people have had enough

''According to Ipsos Mori polling, 65% of voters in Britain were already dissatisfied with Johnson back in December; today that figure stands at 70%. Even among Tory voters – of whom there are fewer to pick from now than before – dissatisfaction with Johnson went up from 28% to 34% in the same period. Another Ipsos Mori poll, conducted only a week ago, found just 14% of all voters think Johnson is an honest person (72% think he is not), while a mere 18% say he is a prime minister they can be proud of. He trails both Keir Starmer and Rishi Sunak on one leadership yardstick after another''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/feb/09/reboot-reshuffle-boris-johnson-finished-thatcher-downfall
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: scawsby steve on February 09, 2022, 10:03:39 pm
The amazing thing is that surely he must have known about events that he did attend and seen others taking pictures?
To deny knowing about them or attending them just makes him look an even bigger fool.
It was like Chemical Ali denying American tanks being in Baghdad when they were in shot behind him as he spoke.

Sorry to be my usual pedantic self, Idler, but it was "Comical Ali" who said that. He was the clown, whereas Chemical Ali was the bad guy, and was executed.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 09, 2022, 10:07:22 pm
Johnson has announced today that he plans to remove the requirement to self-isolate if you test positive for COVID.

Note: There's no-one from SAGE supporting this.

But it was received with cheers by the people who really matter, and who it was aimed at. The swivel eyed loons on the Tory backbenches, who are the ones who will decide Johnson's fate.

Let's be absolutely clear about this: people WILL die as a result of this decision.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on February 09, 2022, 10:34:07 pm
According to Tory MP and new Leader of the Commons Mark Spencer 'real people' in the 'real world' don't care about No. 10s lockdown parties.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60318610

As a real person who, unlike Mr Spencer, lives in the real world I beg to differ.

Assuming the PM hangs on that long Mr Spencer, I suspect, will be in for a shock when the results from the upcoming local elections are declared.

So that's most of the country who apparently aren't 'real people' living in the 'real world'. Way to go to alienate the people whose votes you rely on.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 10, 2022, 03:01:29 am
Johnson has announced today that he plans to remove the requirement to self-isolate if you test positive for COVID.

Note: There's no-one from SAGE supporting this.

But it was received with cheers by the people who really matter, and who it was aimed at. The swivel eyed loons on the Tory backbenches, who are the ones who will decide Johnson's fate.

Let's be absolutely clear about this: people WILL die as a result of this decision.

And when will it happen? around the same time as the 50 or so questionnaires are handed back to the police.

just sayin' like
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Colin C No.3 on February 10, 2022, 09:36:06 am
Johnson has announced today that he plans to remove the requirement to self-isolate if you test positive for COVID.

Note: There's no-one from SAGE supporting this.

But it was received with cheers by the people who really matter, and who it was aimed at. The swivel eyed loons on the Tory backbenches, who are the ones who will decide Johnson's fate.

Let's be absolutely clear about this: people WILL die as a result of this decision.
No surprise there really from a man who said ‘I would rather see bodies stacked up in the street than go into another hard lockdown’.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on February 10, 2022, 09:52:11 am
Please answer truthfully seems to be the request from the Met on the questionnaire. No need to send The Johnsons one then
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ColinDouglasHandshake on February 10, 2022, 01:40:40 pm
Johnson has announced today that he plans to remove the requirement to self-isolate if you test positive for COVID.

Note: There's no-one from SAGE supporting this.

But it was received with cheers by the people who really matter, and who it was aimed at. The swivel eyed loons on the Tory backbenches, who are the ones who will decide Johnson's fate.

Let's be absolutely clear about this: people WILL die as a result of this decision.

People will die if he made this decision in 10/20/30 years time though. Because Covid will be around. At some point total normality must be resumed even though people will sadly die. May as well do that now really.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: i_ateallthepies on February 10, 2022, 05:58:41 pm
People will die if he made this decision in 10/20/30 years time though. Because Covid will be around. At some point total normality must be resumed even though people will sadly die. May as well do that now really.

Interesting that you're so outraged about somebody kicking a cat but don't give a damn about decisions that result in the deaths of people.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ColinDouglasHandshake on February 10, 2022, 06:55:38 pm
People will die if he made this decision in 10/20/30 years time though. Because Covid will be around. At some point total normality must be resumed even though people will sadly die. May as well do that now really.

Interesting that you're so outraged about somebody kicking a cat but don't give a damn about decisions that result in the deaths of people.

This is untrue.

The problem with Covid since it began was that deaths were inevitable. Whether that be from Covid or from people killing themselves due to the restrictions or people not being seen for cancers etc. I take it that people such as yourself don't want to consider the effects that restrictions have had on people, choosing only to focus on Covid.

We can't stop people from dying from Covid, even with a zillion vaccines and yet some want to keep trying.

This doesn't mean that i don't give a damn about people dying, but nothing i can do if you think that way.

Presumably you must have tested yourself for flu a few years back then? No? Of course you didn't because there were no tests. So then presumably you've stayed in your house since just incase you were infectious with flu before coming down with it? No? Why is that? Did you not give a damn about people dying of flu?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on February 10, 2022, 09:02:51 pm
I’m done with whole Bojo thing now.
He has made his bed. He has to lie on it.
I’m a conservative voter. And I wanted him gone.
I’ve emailed MP Matt Warman numerous times, and had replies from him tbf.
I can do no more.
He has a thick skin, and his Back Benchers have failed to grow a pair.
They will pay the price.
There is a failure in leadership across the board in the Tory party.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 10, 2022, 09:34:58 pm
Not much different to the labour party in that respect. How many of them believe there is a failure in leadership across the board?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 10, 2022, 10:02:41 pm
Not much different to the labour party in that respect. How many of them believe there is a failure in leadership across the board?

Most of the ones who only joined in 2015 do. They are irrelevant.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on February 11, 2022, 09:13:30 am
Not much different to the labour party in that respect. How many of them believe there is a failure in leadership across the board?

Most of the ones who only joined in 2015 do. They are irrelevant.

But they are members of the Labour Party, so not irrelevant at all.
They have a vote.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 11, 2022, 10:33:41 am
According to The Times today.

1) Johnson will appoint a solicitor to handle his reply if the Met send him a questionnaire.

2) A "senior ally" has said the Met needs to be "absolutely certain" before finding Johnson guilty and should use discretion because he is PM. That's there in black a white. A quote from a senior Johnson ally saying different rules apply to him.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: belton rover on February 11, 2022, 11:18:44 am
Not much different to the labour party in that respect. How many of them believe there is a failure in leadership across the board?

Most of the ones who only joined in 2015 do. They are irrelevant.

But they are members of the Labour Party, so not irrelevant at all.
They have a vote.

I think Billy means they don’t help his argument, so they are irrelevant.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 11, 2022, 11:26:15 am
desperation ................

''Responding to reports that a senior ally of Boris Johnson has said the Met Police will need to be “very certain” that he has breached lockdown rules before issuing him with a fine, Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said:

This veiled threat by Number 10 allies is amongst very heavy competition perhaps the darkest moment of this whole sorry saga.

It shows a fundamental belief in the heart of government that Boris Johnson should be above the law and that Number 10 will bring any institution into disrepute to save Johnson’s skin.

This is a sobering reminder of why we need a cast-iron guarantee that Boris Johnson and his team will have nothing to do with the appointment of Cressida Dick’s successor.

There was a time that the Conservatives called themselves the party of law and order; the public will laugh at that very idea for generations''
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on February 11, 2022, 12:02:45 pm
desperation ................

''Responding to reports that a senior ally of Boris Johnson has said the Met Police will need to be “very certain” that he has breached lockdown rules before issuing him with a fine, Liberal Democrat leader Ed Davey said:

This veiled threat by Number 10 allies is amongst very heavy competition perhaps the darkest moment of this whole sorry saga.

It shows a fundamental belief in the heart of government that Boris Johnson should be above the law and that Number 10 will bring any institution into disrepute to save Johnson’s skin.

This is a sobering reminder of why we need a cast-iron guarantee that Boris Johnson and his team will have nothing to do with the appointment of Cressida Dick’s successor.

There was a time that the Conservatives called themselves the party of law and order; the public will laugh at that very idea for generations''

Banana Republic

Perverting the Course of Justice

The person making the threats should be arrested and charged
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on February 11, 2022, 12:36:25 pm
.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on February 11, 2022, 01:33:20 pm
Welcome Mr Bonson, if it means keeping Steer Karma out.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on February 11, 2022, 05:10:37 pm
Not much different to the labour party in that respect. How many of them believe there is a failure in leadership across the board?

Most of the ones who only joined in 2015 do. They are irrelevant.

But they are members of the Labour Party, so not irrelevant at all.
They have a vote.

Amazing how Billy tells you that if you don't vote Labour you are aiding the Tories but yet at the same time you are irrelevant .

It's remarkable when the Labour Party is a broad church and when it isn't .

Generally only during election campaigns or when a new centre Labour Party leader wants to win a leadership contest .

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on February 12, 2022, 01:58:20 pm
Not much different to the labour party in that respect. How many of them believe there is a failure in leadership across the board?

Most of the ones who only joined in 2015 do. They are irrelevant.

But they are members of the Labour Party, so not irrelevant at all.
They have a vote.

Amazing how Billy tells you that if you don't vote Labour you are aiding the Tories but yet at the same time you are irrelevant .

It's remarkable when the Labour Party is a broad church and when it isn't .

Generally only during election campaigns or when a new centre Labour Party leader wants to win a leadership contest .


What I mean Tyke, is that the opinions of 100,000 people are irrelevant compared to an electorate of 30 million.

Look at the counter example. Those 100,000 people deified Corbyn, while 80% of the electorate despised him.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ColinDouglasHandshake on February 12, 2022, 02:35:40 pm
If i don't vote Labour (which i will not vote Labour) and the Tories stay in power as a result (which i don't want either) then as a voter this is not relevant to me. What is relevant to me is that i vote for the party who DESERVE my vote and support as i see fit. Regardless of the outcome or how unlikely that party is to get into power.

What we are left with if the Tories or Labour are in power is more of the same bullshit, therefore it doesn't matter to me which party of the 2 gets into power as most of the ordinary British public will be screwed anyway.





Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on February 24, 2022, 12:32:32 am
jellyback wants to give ministers his version of reality and intends to set the record straight???

It can't be both.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: aidanstu on February 24, 2022, 04:58:26 am
According to The Times today.

1) Johnson will appoint a solicitor to handle his reply if the Met send him a questionnaire.

2) A "senior ally" has said the Met needs to be "absolutely certain" before finding Johnson guilty and should use discretion because he is PM. That's there in black a white. A quote from a senior Johnson ally saying different rules apply to him.

When did the met develop the ability to find anybody guilty? If he accepts a fine or a caution he has had accepted his guilt.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on March 29, 2022, 11:49:18 am
Time to resurrect this thread
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on March 29, 2022, 08:11:06 pm
It's a tricky one now.

I think he's probably guilty. He should be getting fined. He has lied.

I don't think the Tory party will push him out now.

I'm not sure I want them to either. Not with the situation in Ukraine, it's not the right time for a leadership election and to be honest there aren't any potential Tory candidates who look a better prospect.

Perhaps from an opposition perspective, it's better he's wounded by this, by the time the next election comes around. An election that will, I think, be exclusively about the dire state of the economicy.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on March 29, 2022, 08:51:41 pm
Britain changed leaders and changed the whole government 8 months after declaring war on Germany.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on March 29, 2022, 08:53:45 pm
A good move as it turned out.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on March 29, 2022, 08:54:19 pm
Britain hasn't declared war on anyone yet.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on March 29, 2022, 08:58:54 pm
Britain hasn't declared war on anyone yet.

Even more reason to get rid of johnson
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on March 29, 2022, 09:04:59 pm
Britain hasn't declared war on anyone yet.

Even more reason to get rid of johnson

Well, not officially at war.

And it's the decision of the Tories, I'd be surprised if they drop him now.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on March 29, 2022, 09:09:00 pm
Britain hasn't declared war on anyone yet.

Even more reason to get rid of johnson

Well, not officially at war.

And it's the decision of the Tories, I'd be surprised if they drop him now.

I would be fairly surprised but it doesn't mean the dud should stay, would you really want him to be making any of the calls in this war even if asked?














Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on March 29, 2022, 09:15:35 pm
That's a difficult question Syd.

Would you prefer Sunak or Truss or ?... I dunno who making the calls?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on March 30, 2022, 12:27:59 am
That's a difficult question Syd.

Would you prefer Sunak or Truss or ?... I dunno who making the calls?

It is, but as you say it's up to the tories, they had their chance to elect a better person but passed on that to elect an habitual liar and racist. It hasn't stopped those calling for Starmer to go as they have not nominated anyone as an alternative and yet he is not a liar a racist a philanderer, does not break international laws, is not a coward, does not consort with racists, nor regards the majority of british people as dupes.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on March 30, 2022, 11:32:01 am
 .............. and the moon really is made of cheese
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on March 30, 2022, 11:45:53 am
And No10 still not admitting rules/laws were broken even when the Met say they were.
Raabid squirming when asked if he stll believed MPs who mislead Parliament should resign, saying Johnson told the truth to the best of his ability, just let that bit sink in! even though he was photo'd at parties but according tp Raabid the photos don't prove anything.
Call 999 and report another car crash
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on March 30, 2022, 11:54:48 am
does the truth mean so little to these people ................. I would have thought raab would have had enough the last time he made an utter abject fool of himself defending johnson
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Not Now Kato on March 31, 2022, 05:09:01 pm
does the truth mean so little to these people ................. I would have thought raab would have had enough the last time he made an utter abject fool of himself defending johnson

Yes.  And it seems to mean so little to quite a number of posters on here too, sadly!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: scawsby steve on March 31, 2022, 08:08:43 pm
does the truth mean so little to these people ................. I would have thought raab would have had enough the last time he made an utter abject fool of himself defending johnson

Yes.  And it seems to mean so little to quite a number of posters on here too, sadly!

Who are the posters on here who have defended Johnson and Partygate?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: selby on March 31, 2022, 11:45:18 pm
  We have a great choice, a lying conservative, a back stabbing traitor labour leader, and a nobody Liberal wanting you to spend your life savings saving the world.
   Uh.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on March 31, 2022, 11:56:08 pm
  We have a great choice, a lying conservative, a back stabbing traitor labour leader, and a nobody Liberal wanting you to spend your life savings saving the world.
   Uh.

bored are we?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 01, 2022, 05:41:46 pm
Boris's own back-stabbing treachery has been conveniently forgotten, it seems.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on April 01, 2022, 08:55:41 pm
  We have a great choice, a lying conservative, a back stabbing traitor labour leader, and a nobody Liberal wanting you to spend your life savings saving the world.
   Uh.

We have a choice between a Tory leader who treats the electorate with contempt and a Labour Party that treats democracy with contempt.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on April 01, 2022, 09:28:36 pm
  We have a great choice, a lying conservative, a back stabbing traitor labour leader, and a nobody Liberal wanting you to spend your life savings saving the world.
   Uh.

We have a choice between a Tory leader who treats the electorate with contempt and a Labour Party that treats democracy with contempt.

Which tends to happen when you get two cheeks to the same ass unfortunately .
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 01, 2022, 09:33:04 pm
  We have a great choice, a lying conservative, a back stabbing traitor labour leader, and a nobody Liberal wanting you to spend your life savings saving the world.
   Uh.

We have a choice between a Tory leader who treats the electorate with contempt and a Labour Party that treats democracy with contempt.

I did hope, given what's going on in a true fight between democracy and authoritarianism that this sort of intellectually idle stuff that Brexit supporters might fade away.

At the last election, the Labour party campaigned in a free and open election, for the support of voters to hold a vote to confirm or challenge the outcome of another vote. And we've still got people saying that is anti-democratic.

Just grow up will you?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 01, 2022, 09:33:39 pm
Don't be so hard on yourself tyke, you made mistakes, be a man and admit them
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on April 01, 2022, 10:04:07 pm
  We have a great choice, a lying conservative, a back stabbing traitor labour leader, and a nobody Liberal wanting you to spend your life savings saving the world.
   Uh.

We have a choice between a Tory leader who treats the electorate with contempt and a Labour Party that treats democracy with contempt.

I did hope, given what's going on in a true fight between democracy and authoritarianism that this sort of intellectually idle stuff that Brexit supporters might fade away.

At the last election, the Labour party campaigned in a free and open election, for the support of voters to hold a vote to confirm or challenge the outcome of another vote. And we've still got people saying that is anti-democratic.

Just grow up will you?

The only people who needed to grow up were the ones in Parliament Billy .

The electorate gave them the result to the question they were asked .

The only people who were intellectually short of understanding that are well documented , Keith included .
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 01, 2022, 10:12:22 pm
  We have a great choice, a lying conservative, a back stabbing traitor labour leader, and a nobody Liberal wanting you to spend your life savings saving the world.
   Uh.

We have a choice between a Tory leader who treats the electorate with contempt and a Labour Party that treats democracy with contempt.

I did hope, given what's going on in a true fight between democracy and authoritarianism that this sort of intellectually idle stuff that Brexit supporters might fade away.

At the last election, the Labour party campaigned in a free and open election, for the support of voters to hold a vote to confirm or challenge the outcome of another vote. And we've still got people saying that is anti-democratic.

Just grow up will you?

The only people who needed to grow up were the ones in Parliament Billy .

The electorate gave them the result to the question they were asked .

The only people who were intellectually short of understanding that are well documented , Keith included .

Proof of the pudding is in the eating, those claiming success will have plenty of time to eat and digest crow as every financial statement has shown and the UK struggles without its cheap labour.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 01, 2022, 10:16:32 pm
Tyke

And the Labour party hasnt questioned that decision

You and Johnson and Farage won. It's gone. It's in the past.


Move on. And now look at what real contempt for democracy is.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on April 01, 2022, 10:23:21 pm
Tyke

And the Labour party hasnt questioned that decision

You and Johnson and Farage won. It's gone. It's in the past.


Move on. And now look at what real contempt for democracy is.

Your quite right Billy , get elected to build on the work of Corbyn and then kick every bugga out of the party who even says social democracy .

It works two ways you know .
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on April 01, 2022, 10:25:15 pm
Starmer was on the bbc news this morning.
When he talked about the energy price hike he very sensibly talked about imposing a windfall tax on the energy companies who had made unforeseen extra profits and that the Labour Party would give £600 to some households to help to pay the higher bills.
A brilliant thing to say IMO.
He was then asked how the LP would help people in the following year.
Starmer then spent a couple of minutes telling us how, as the Opposition, it was his job to challenge decisions made by the government but he didn’t explain what they would do to help people beyond the £600 that he would give this year.
He was asked time and again to answer the question but appeared to get agitated and the interview was ended.
It was noticeable that he didn’t appear to have a forward plan.
I was wondering how he could attract people to vote for him if people don’t know what his plans are.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on April 01, 2022, 10:26:28 pm
We have a choice between a Tory leader who treats the electorate with contempt and a Labour Party that treats democracy with contempt.

I did hope, given what's going on in a true fight between democracy and authoritarianism that this sort of intellectually idle stuff that Brexit supporters might fade away.

At the last election, the Labour party campaigned in a free and open election, for the support of voters to hold a vote to confirm or challenge the outcome of another vote. And we've still got people saying that is anti-democratic.

Just grow up will you?

Billy I've no objection to you disagreeing with me and am quite happy to debate issues with you or anyone else.

I have to note however the irony of you telling me to grow up - given name calling of people you disagree with is a decidedly childish activity.

As for using the murderous evil that is the Russian invasion of Ukraine to further your political arguments on domestic issues to which it is wholly irrelevant......

....well lets just say as I've criticised you for name-calling I'll hold my counsel.

I'm lost for words anyway.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 01, 2022, 10:31:37 pm
  We have a great choice, a lying conservative, a back stabbing traitor labour leader, and a nobody Liberal wanting you to spend your life savings saving the world.
   Uh.

We have a choice between a Tory leader who treats the electorate with contempt and a Labour Party that treats democracy with contempt.

And yep here you are supporting someone that spends his time talking nonsense
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 01, 2022, 10:36:54 pm
Branton.

If you really insist that standing in a General Election on a ticket that asked people to support a vote is anti-democratic, I truly despair for the prospects for sensible discussion.

Insisting on that, in my opinion, devalues the whole concept of democracy.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on April 01, 2022, 10:59:39 pm
Branton.

If you really insist that standing in a General Election on a ticket that asked people to support a vote is anti-democratic, I truly despair for the prospects for sensible discussion.

Insisting on that, in my opinion, devalues the whole concept of democracy.

Billy please point out to me where I've stated Labour's second referendum 2019 General Election policy was anti-democratic. I've stated on other threads that it was strategically stupid and hugely damaging to the party.

Making glib assumptions and then using said assumptions as the basis for childish name calling is hardly sensible debating is it?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 01, 2022, 11:12:11 pm
Then what on earth do you mean by saying the Labour party treats democracy with contempt?

By all means point out reasons why you disagree with policies. But chucking out slurs like that, at a time when in East Europe we are seeing the true meaning of contempt for democracy...you can do better than that.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on April 02, 2022, 12:20:15 pm
Starmer was on the bbc news this morning.
When he talked about the energy price hike he very sensibly talked about imposing a windfall tax on the energy companies who had made unforeseen extra profits and that the Labour Party would give £600 to some households to help to pay the higher bills.
A brilliant thing to say IMO.
He was then asked how the LP would help people in the following year.
Starmer then spent a couple of minutes telling us how, as the Opposition, it was his job to challenge decisions made by the government but he didn’t explain what they would do to help people beyond the £600 that he would give this year.
He was asked time and again to answer the question but appeared to get agitated and the interview was ended.
It was noticeable that he didn’t appear to have a forward plan.
I was wondering how he could attract people to vote for him if people don’t know what his plans are.

This is the problem with Starmer and the current Labour Party with voters like myself .

They aren't brave enough to come out and say they will sort this kind of thing out in its entirety .

Stick a plaster on it at best and hope it goes away instead of stopping how the wound occured in the first place .

They are neither entirely for anything or completely against it either .

It must take Starmer at least 3 hours in the morning to decide which tie to put on .

They have absolutely no conviction in anything they do other than to purge the left of the party and something they do with relish and with far more enthusiasm than they show attacking the Tories .

The country is crying out for REAL change and all we have is a block of wood as Labour leader .





Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 02, 2022, 12:34:40 pm
Just a couple of points tyke, you started this thread about johnson and you're not a labour voter, but apart from that .....................
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on April 02, 2022, 04:30:22 pm
All threads meander from one thing to another.
Usually most of it is relevant.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on April 02, 2022, 07:11:58 pm
Then what on earth do you mean by saying the Labour party treats democracy with contempt?

Leave campaigned on leaving the Single Market and Customs Union - the majority of the benefits from Brexit they claimed derived from this. Remain campaigned heavily on the economic costs of leaving the Single Market.

The main reasons, confirmed by polling, people gave for voting Brexit were 1) Repatriation of law making powers (the majority of EU laws relate to the Single Market) 2) To reduce EU immigration (not possible in the Single Market) 3) Improved global (non EU) trade (by leaving the Customs Union)

Labour's 2017 election manifesto stated it accepted the result of the referendum. Implied this meant leaving the Single Market (inc stating freedom of movement would end after Brexit) and Customs Union.

Voting in Parliament on 1st April 2019 (which typified the Labour Party on Brexit in 2017-19): -

- 78% of Labour MPs (inc Starmer) voted in favour of remaining in a Customs Union with the EU
- 71% of Labour MPs (inc Starmer) voted in favour of Common Market 2.0 i.e. voted in favour of remaining in the Single Market

a) Attempting therefore to overturn the democratic decision made in the referendum before it had been implemented
b) Voting in direct contravention of the manifesto they had stood on when being elected
c) Attempting to block, against the will of the electorate, law making powers being transferred to our democratically elected Government
d) Attempting to help retain said law making powers in the hands of the unelected EU Commission
e) Attempting to place significant law making powers in the hands of a foreign power

This is clearly showing contempt for democracy. Furthermore it is contemptible and downright unforgivable behaviour.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 02, 2022, 07:24:29 pm
Where on the referendum voting slip did it mention leaving the Single Market or the Customs Union?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 02, 2022, 07:29:37 pm
Leave campaigned on leaving the Single Market and Customs Union - the majority of the benefits from Brexit they claimed derived from this.

When did they? I can't remember ever hearing them mention it - and I was listening very carefully because I knew leaving the Single Market was the single most damaging prospect of them all.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on April 02, 2022, 07:45:58 pm
Where on the referendum voting slip did it mention leaving the Single Market or the Customs Union?

To be fair if it had there wouldn't have been much point even holding a referendum .

I think most leavers biggest problem was the Single Market and it's tentacles .
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on April 02, 2022, 08:16:54 pm
Where on the referendum voting slip did it mention leaving the Single Market or the Customs Union?

Hi Glyn.

My answer to this question is implicit in my previous post on this thread so I won't repeat myself.

May I ask re your quote "I knew leaving the Single Market was the single most damaging prospect of them all". Was this one of the reasons you presumably voted Remain?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 02, 2022, 09:06:52 pm
Where on the referendum voting slip did it mention leaving the Single Market or the Customs Union?

Hi Glyn.

My answer to this question is implicit in my previous post on this thread so I won't repeat myself.

May I ask re your quote "I knew leaving the Single Market was the single most damaging prospect of them all". Was this one of the reasons you presumably voted Remain?

I don't care what you think is 'implicit'. Leave didn't campaign on leaving Single Market at all, so everything you say after the assertion they did is based on a false premise. The leaflet they sent to everybody didn't mention the Single Market once. Hardly at the forefront of their campaign, was it?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on April 02, 2022, 09:25:18 pm
Well all I can say and this is personally .

I've got myself another job which I start in 3 weeks time , I've negotiated myself £13 ph which I know for a fact wouldn't be payable pre Brexit and would have been way way below that .

I'm nowt special by the way other than a ton of experience but also bear in mind I'm almost 60 years of age and hardly the grow with the company candidate either .

The cheap Labour diminishes , guess what the price  goes up .

That's how I see it personally and not to be confused with Brexit ticks every box because it doesn't .



Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on April 02, 2022, 09:52:59 pm
I don't care what you think is 'implicit'. Leave didn't campaign on leaving Single Market at all, so everything you say after the assertion they did is based on a false premise. The leaflet they sent to everybody didn't mention the Single Market once. Hardly at the forefront of their campaign, was it?

This leaflet you mean? https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/voteleave/pages/2318/attachments/original/1458915760/Vote_Leave_8pg_leaflet_print.pdf?1458915760

Where clearly out of only 5 points: -

- Point 3 is an advantage per Vote Leave of leaving the Single Market

- Point 4 is an advantage per Vote Leave of leaving the Customs Union

- Point 2 is in part (trade/borders) an advantage per Vote Leave of leaving both.

Perhaps you'd prefer the Remain campaigns No. 1 pledge www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/30/david-cameron-sadiq-khan-eu-remain - see billboard half way down page "Full access to the EUs Single Market"

Or maybe the UK Government's pre-campaign leaflet, sent to every household, reproduced in Internet form here www.gov.uk/government/publications/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk - it mentions the single market 7 times! Please read A Stronger Economy section.

Or maybe read Labour's 2017 manifesto as I mentioned previously.

In short you're talking nonsense Glyn. It was accepted in the arguments, from both sides throughout the campaign, that a leave vote meant leaving the single market and customs union.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 02, 2022, 10:44:59 pm
Branton.

So this "contempt of democracy" is democratically elected politicians, who can be ejected at any election by a democratic vote, engaging in democratic politics in a democratically elected political legislature.

I'll ask again. Do you think you are actually debasing the language here in your obsession over this. If you call that "contempt for democracy" where's your space for differentiating between politicians you disagree with, and ones who invade democratic neighbours, round up civillians and shoot them in the back of the head?

There's an obsessive zeal about the Brexiteers, that requires them to see themselves as some form of guardians of democracy. I'd thought one tiny positive of the bestiality in Ukraine might have been to shake them out of that by smacking them in the face with what a real threat to democracy, as opposed to someone with a legitimate different take, looks like. It appears my hopes were naive.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on April 03, 2022, 11:56:55 am
Billy I usually enjoy reading your opinions, even where I disagree, but this line of argument is not just nonsense but I'm sorry to say the most despicable I've read on this forum.

You imply that because they're democratically elected UK MPs can behave as egregiously as they like in Parliament yet be beyond reproach as they're not as bad as Putin esp re Ukraine. Nonsense.

You imply that because Putin seeks to obliterate Ukrainian democratic freedoms an argument to enhance UK democratic freedoms (of course on a much, much smaller scale) lacks validity. Nonsense.

You imply that an argument to improve democratic rights in the UK is delegitimized by the Ukraine invasion because (of course obviously) the EU/UK are nowhere near as bad as Russia. Nonsense.

The latter is equivalent to me arguing that the possibility of a worldwide 1930s type depression delegitimizes arguments re the cost of Brexit. This too would be nonsense. The difference though is that thousands are dying and millions fleeing their homes in Ukraine right now.

You are using this human suffering and misery to justify the validity of your arguments on a wholly irrelevant UK domestic political issue. This is why this line of argument is despicable.

You criticised Boris Johnson for using the Ukraine invasion to justify his view on Brexit. Yet quite hypocritically you are doing exactly the same.

As someone who is horrified and distressed by what is happening in Ukraine I'm appalled my your line of argument.

You question my intellect and maturity. If you think your opinion is grown up intellectualism then heaven help you.

I'm offended that you have continued with this line against me despite me twice, with reason, telling you I felt it inappropriate. This continuance suggests your acting as WUM which would make you look even worse.

From your previous posts you come across as a reasonable, decent bloke however you are unbelievably wrong-headed here. I would hope the only valid point in your post is that you are being naïve.

Do not put forward this disgusting argument against my views on Brexit or any other UK domestic political issue in the future and expect a response from me. I've said my piece.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on April 03, 2022, 12:21:28 pm
Try discussing Brexit on the Brexit thread please
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 03, 2022, 01:20:55 pm
Branton.

I'm talking about context and perspective.

As I say, right from the off, the Brexit side has argued that they are on a messianic crusade to protect democracy from anti-democratic forces. You are far from the most extreme example of this, but you have still consistently argued the case that the "freedom" from an "undemocratic" EU that Brexit gave us was a prize worth a large sacrifice.

What has ways worried me about that sort of argument is that it eliminated the space for a sensible discussion about the benefits and costs of pooling sovereignty. Losing some freedom of decision-making is a cost. Having a higher standard of living or more collective strength in the geo-political environment are potential benefits. Finding the true optimal position on that spectrum requires detailed, nuanced discussion and thought.

We never had that discussion  over Brexit because it was drowned out by the Leave side's argument of "The EU restricts our freedom and that's that. End of argument."

I will not apoligise for pointing out that we are now seeing what a true threat to democracy is. Or for pointing out that framing the Leave/Remain debate in the Manichean binary window of freedom/no freedom was immature and deeply destructive to mature decision-making.

You compare my stance with Johnson's recent disgusting remarks. I think you are letting your passions run away with you here.

Johnson directly compared voting for Brexit and the Ukrainian armed resistance as symbols of a desire for freedom. My stance is saying that there is someone very important to be learned from the Ukraine invasion for how we frame and contextualise our political discussions. As in, if we automatically polarise every debate, we have lost the space between honest disagreement and fundamental views on humanity.

What I am absolutely not saying is that my stance is somehow comparable to the bravery if the Ukrainian people and  I  think that if you stop and reflect, you'll regret comparing what I am saying to Johnson's comments. But that's whole point of what I am saying. Everything has to be polrised in the current environment. And the whole Brexit debate (sic) pushed us a very long way in that direction with its elimination of nuanced reasoning.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 03, 2022, 04:17:19 pm
I don't care what you think is 'implicit'. Leave didn't campaign on leaving Single Market at all, so everything you say after the assertion they did is based on a false premise. The leaflet they sent to everybody didn't mention the Single Market once. Hardly at the forefront of their campaign, was it?

This leaflet you mean? https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/voteleave/pages/2318/attachments/original/1458915760/Vote_Leave_8pg_leaflet_print.pdf?1458915760

Where clearly out of only 5 points: -

- Point 3 is an advantage per Vote Leave of leaving the Single Market

- Point 4 is an advantage per Vote Leave of leaving the Customs Union

- Point 2 is in part (trade/borders) an advantage per Vote Leave of leaving both.

Please point out where it mentions  the Single Market, or leaving it. If you can.


I don't care less about what you think is 'implied', that means f**k all. You don't vote for 'implications'...or this really the kind of democracy you claim to be such a champion of?

As for all the remain guff you posted - irrelevant. You - yes, you - claim the LEAVE campaign definitely stated that voting leave meant leaving the Single Market, so whatever Remain said is completely irrelevant. It tells me that you can't find anything from Leave saying that Leave means leaving the Single Market if you're having to resort to referencing the Remain stuff! If Leave said we'd leave the Single Market there must be tons of stuff online saying so, wouldn't there?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 03, 2022, 04:39:36 pm
I don't care what you think is 'implicit'. Leave didn't campaign on leaving Single Market at all, so everything you say after the assertion they did is based on a false premise. The leaflet they sent to everybody didn't mention the Single Market once. Hardly at the forefront of their campaign, was it?

This leaflet you mean? https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/voteleave/pages/2318/attachments/original/1458915760/Vote_Leave_8pg_leaflet_print.pdf?1458915760

Where clearly out of only 5 points: -

- Point 3 is an advantage per Vote Leave of leaving the Single Market

- Point 4 is an advantage per Vote Leave of leaving the Customs Union

- Point 2 is in part (trade/borders) an advantage per Vote Leave of leaving both.

Please point out where it mentions  the Single Market, or leaving it. If you can.


I don't care less about what you think is 'implied', that means f**k all. You don't vote for 'implications'...or this really the kind of democracy you claim to be such a champion of?

As for all the remain guff you posted - irrelevant. You - yes, you - claim the LEAVE campaign definitely stated that voting leave meant leaving the Single Market, so whatever Remain said is completely irrelevant. It tells me that you can't find anything from Leave saying that Leave means leaving the Single Market if you're having to resort to referencing the Remain stuff! If Leave said we'd leave the Single Market there must be tons of stuff online saying so, wouldn't there?



    “There is a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in or out of the euro or EU. After we vote to leave we will remain in this zone.

    “The suggestion that Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and the Ukraine would stay part of this free trade area - and Britain would be on the outside with just Belarus - is as credible as Jean-Claude Juncker joining UKIP.

    “Agreeing to maintain this continental free trade zone is the simple course and emphatically in everyone’s interests.”

http://www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/michael_gove_the_facts_of_life_say_leave.html
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on April 03, 2022, 08:03:19 pm
Glyn and Wilts

Oh dear

It is clear from each of your last posts on this thread that neither of you understand what the EU Single Market is and what leaving it entails.

I cannot be bothered to educate you

I withdraw from this discussion in bemused exasperation
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 03, 2022, 08:52:00 pm
Branton. Do you want to compile a list of very prominent Leave campaigners who said, very prominently, that there was no intention for us to leave the Single Market? Or make an even bigger list of this who never mentioned the Single Market, preferring to keep voters in the ignorance that they could vote for "freedom" with no economic consequences?

You'd be at it a long time. Even before you leaven that list with a few of the deliberate deceptions from prominent Leave supporters who hinted strongly that we could be like Norway and Switzerland BEFORE the vote, then after the vote insisted that membership of the SM (like Norway and Switzerland) would be a Betrayal of the Will of the People.

May I suggest it is a bit rich of you to repeatedly accuse Labour of being in contempt of democracy for running a polucy based on giving people an opportunity to reflect on these issues in a second vote - whole never once criticising those politicians on your side of the debate who knowingly and deliberately misled voters in a referendum that was so sacrosanct, we are not allowed to challenge its validity?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on April 03, 2022, 09:02:15 pm
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/voteleave/pages/2318/attachments/original/1458915760/Vote_Leave_8pg_leaflet_print.pdf?1458915760

Main leaflet of Vote Leave - Point 3 clearly shows a leave vote involves leaving the Single Market.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk

Pre-campaign correspondence from the Government to every household clearly stating a leave vote involves leaving the Single Market.

Billy please find me a quote from a prominent Leave campaigner during the referendum campaign that contradicts this.

And to repeat myself I do not think and therefore have never said that Labour's 2nd referendum General election policy was antidemocratic or in contempt of democracy.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 03, 2022, 09:56:52 pm
I thought you might have been able to have a look for yourself Branton, but here's a few to be going on with.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/open-britain-video-single-market-nigel-farage-anna-soubry_uk_582ce0a0e4b09025ba310fce/

That's a very prominent Tory MEP, a cabinet minister, the bloke who ran Vote Leave, the bloke who ran Leave.EU and the bloke who funded Leave.EU.

All flatly contradicting what the Remain campaign said Leave would inevitably lead to.

As for Labour's actions, have they ever proposed anything that couldn't have been overturned in a quickly-following democratic vote?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 03, 2022, 10:03:59 pm
I'd actually feel sympathy for Hannan if he wasn't such an all-round general t**t. I do actually think he genuinely believed that we would leave the EU without leaving the SM. I tmdo think he genuinely understood that it would be economic idiocy and he didn't think the Tory party would be so idiotic as to do it. Poor dear, he really didn't get that Brexit was never about the economics. It was about who would come out on top in the generation long civil war on the British Right.

The others in that link I have nothing but contempt for. They all knew damn well that we were never going to leave the EU and stay in the SM. And they set out knowingly to deceive voters.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on April 03, 2022, 10:14:51 pm
Billy please re read my request - the bit in bold below is the key bit

Please find me a quote from a prominent Leave campaigner during the referendum campaign that contradicts this.

Re Labour's actions yes on 1/4/19 they voted en masse in Parliament for the EU negotiations to include membership of a) the Customs Union and b) the Single Market. In contravention of the referendum vote and their own manifesto. There was no plan under either proposal to go back to the electorate for confirmation ahead of beginning said long-term negotiations - even though both proposals contradicted the proposals of Vote Leave.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on April 03, 2022, 10:32:12 pm
Billy, your post no.541 has got me thinking.

This loss of perspective, loss of nuance, loss of ability to discuss, are all symptoms of a malaise that is far, far wider than just the political arena. Look at the hysterical reactions on this board  to the last 18 months at the KM. Look at the equally hysterical reactions to a plethora of stuff, trivial and none trivial, on social media. Look at the press in Britain that sensationalises everything and assesses nothing. Look at the extremist behaviour of lunatics everywhere seeking to make bigger and bigger impressions. Look at the polarisation of everything we see around us. Even bloody advertising is hyperbolic today for God's  sake.

We're  f**ked. We really are. Karl Marx was right after all. 'Capitalism contains within itself....'

BobG

PS Marketing people are number 2 on my list of who goes up against the wall. Professional liars, purveyors of fantasy and of irredeemable disappointment that results in deep seated frustration, anger, envy, and, greed - to the detriment of everyone.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 03, 2022, 11:14:37 pm
Branton.

You're choosing a very unfortunate hill to die on.

Hannan insisted from 2015 until.the light bulb came on in 2019 that we could and would leave the EU without leaving the SM.

Patterson said we would be mad to leave the SM in an interview during the campaign.

Farage made reference to Norway and Switzerland as exemplars repeatedly and very vocally throughout the first half of 2016.

Meanwhile, the Labour manifesto in 2017 said absolutely zero about a committment to leave the SM. You are putting words in their mouths by interpreting a deliberately vague document as some solemn pledge which it was contemptuous of democracy to go against.

Go and read it. Carefully. Then think about what happened in the Brexit debate between 2017 and 2019. Then think if you want to withdraw your accusation.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Donnywolf on April 04, 2022, 05:21:09 pm
Up to 30 people were at his birthday party during the first lockdown in June it's just emerged .

Rules at the time forbid all social gatherings indoors at that time .

Bye bye Bunter .

It would be deserved but it's just another can kicked down road, delayed , gaslighted and now he is going to throw a load of people under the bus ( one with NHS will get 350 million on it probably ) and will say he gave incorrect information to Parliament because they gave him that incorrect information

Case closed they will all say


.... and just to think it took "only" the Poll Tax to finish Thatcher off
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on April 04, 2022, 07:43:30 pm
Never mind Johnson.
The governments ex chief of ethics, Helen McNamara, has admitted to having received a fixed penalty for attending a leaving do at no10.

She is now the Premier Leagues Director of Policy.
Doesn’t look like this is affecting her career.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 04, 2022, 08:44:43 pm
https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/voteleave/pages/2318/attachments/original/1458915760/Vote_Leave_8pg_leaflet_print.pdf?1458915760

Main leaflet of Vote Leave - Point 3 clearly shows a leave vote involves leaving the Single Market.

www.gov.uk/government/publications/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk/why-the-government-believes-that-voting-to-remain-in-the-european-union-is-the-best-decision-for-the-uk

Pre-campaign correspondence from the Government to every household clearly stating a leave vote involves leaving the Single Market.

Billy please find me a quote from a prominent Leave campaigner during the referendum campaign that contradicts this.

And to repeat myself I do not think and therefore have never said that Labour's 2nd referendum General election policy was antidemocratic or in contempt of democracy.

You are quoting the Government's leaflets to state what the Leave position was!!!

So are you now saying that what leavers called Project Fear was actually the truth all the time!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 04, 2022, 08:54:10 pm
Never mind Johnson.
The governments ex chief of ethics, Helen McNamara, has admitted to having received a fixed penalty for attending a leaving do at no10.

She is now the Premier Leagues Director of Policy.
Doesn’t look like this is affecting her career.

At the time she was fined it was illegal for more than two people to meet indoors for a social gathering and at those events where more than two people were allowed to gather no singing was allowed.

She was fined for providing a kareoke machine for a leaving party.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on April 04, 2022, 08:55:08 pm
A1 The UK Government send a pre-campaign pamphlet to every household telling them leaving the EU means leaving the Single Market.
A2 The Remain and both Leave campaigns produce myriad campaign material the majority of which content confirms leaving the EU meant leaving the Single Market. And nothing that contradicted that. Seen by surely all.
A3 Two of the key debates, immigration and the economy, are made on the basis of leaving the Single Market. Millions watch these debates on prime time TV and over the web.
A4 A clear message was given to the public, by all sides, that a vote to leave the EU would involve leaving the Single Market. To suggest otherwise is complete nonsense.

B1 "Labour accepts the referendum result". Pretty clear and given points above clear what this means re Single Market
B2 "[Labour will place a] strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market". Note not retaining membership
B3 The clincher "Freedom of movement will end when we leave the European Union". You cannot remain in the Single Market without retaining freedom of movement of people.
B4 The 2017 Labour Party manifesto commits them to leaving the Single Market. Clearly.

On 1/4/19 71% of Labour MPs voted to leave the Single Market. In contravention of both the unimplemented referendum vote and their manifesto.

This is contempt for democracy pure and simple.

Billy you are defending the indefensible the facts speak for themselves.

PS do you think being 'deliberately vague' on the most important political decision of the age is a sign of strong democratic sentiment. A very poor argument that.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 04, 2022, 09:32:32 pm
Branton.

1) You are effectively saying that the Leave side's arguments should be taken as 100% true when they suit your argument and totally ignored when they don't. Tell me. Why should a Leave voter have believed the Remain side when it said that Leave meant leaving the SM, but not believe them when they said Leave meant massive problems for the economy or for Ireland.

2) In 2017, there was a furious internal row going on in the Labour party between the Corbynistas who wanted a red in tooth and claw Brexit, and the majority of the party who wanted a much softer Brexit. You quote two contradictory pledges that highlight that argument. You are right that we couldn't stay in the SM while stopping freedom of movement. Equally, there was no chance of retaining the advantages of the SM while rejecting freedom if movement.

Corbyn's team played a very "political" (and I don't mean that as a compliment) game of telling both sides they were on their side. I didn't like that but I understood where it came from. As a result, they obfuscated with contradictory pledges like those.

Given that, as you point out, the manifesto committed Labour to striving to retain the benefits of the SM, tell me what other option there was in early 2019 but to vote to stay in the SM. Had they not done, they'd have been breaking that pledge because there was no other option on offer that gave a mechanism to keep the benefits.

The problem Labour had was having a leadership that fundamentally didn't represent the views of either the membership or the Parliamentary party on that issue. So they did what politicians always do in difficult situations. They obfuscated and gave individual MPs room to interpret the manifesto as they saw fit. That's happened since time immemorial.


In any case, manifesto pledges are  snapshot of where a party is at a moment in time. Then things change. Was it "contempt for democracy" for Sunak to out up NI after the 2019 manifesto said they wouldn't? Was it an affront to democracy for the LDs to say they would not put up tuition fees, then do so?

Not in my book. Those were political decisions made due to particular circumstances. I don't necessarily agree with them, but I don't see them pressaging the collapse of our system.

Because, if you think that's unacceptable, don't vote for them next time. That's how democracy works. Which is why screaming "contempt for democracy" is an emotional, overblown response to what is actually political decisions that you don't like, but ones made by democratically elected representatives, who can be removed democratically.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 04, 2022, 10:59:57 pm
Never mind Johnson.
The governments ex chief of ethics, Helen McNamara, has admitted to having received a fixed penalty for attending a leaving do at no10.

She is now the Premier Leagues Director of Policy.
Doesn’t look like this is affecting her career.

At the time she was fined it was illegal for more than two people to meet indoors for a social gathering and at those events where more than two people were allowed to gather no singing was allowed.

She was fined for providing a kareoke machine for a leaving party.

A fish rots from the head, as with most if not all groups those in the 'family' take their cues from the head, it's why the leader of a criminal enterprise usually receives a tougher sentence.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 05, 2022, 03:12:29 pm
Glyn and Wilts

Oh dear

It is clear from each of your last posts on this thread that neither of you understand what the EU Single Market is and what leaving it entails.

I cannot be bothered to educate you

I withdraw from this discussion in bemused exasperation

Yeah, someone who was an International Trade Officer with Customs for twenty years obviously knows nothing about the Single Market.

I certainly don't need to be 'educated' about it by a berk like you.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 05, 2022, 06:13:00 pm
It's quite pleasant on here when I'm not involved!

 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 06, 2022, 06:28:48 am
Official photo taken of lockdown party at #10 released

https://www.hisour.com/three-historic-rooms-10-downing-street-16209/
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on April 06, 2022, 11:10:33 am
Glyn and Wilts

Oh dear

It is clear from each of your last posts on this thread that neither of you understand what the EU Single Market is and what leaving it entails.

I cannot be bothered to educate you

I withdraw from this discussion in bemused exasperation

Yeah, someone who was an International Trade Officer with Customs for twenty years obviously knows nothing about the Single Market.

I certainly don't need to be 'educated' about it by a berk like you.

Collapse of stout party....

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 06, 2022, 12:27:03 pm
Glyn and Wilts

Oh dear

It is clear from each of your last posts on this thread that neither of you understand what the EU Single Market is and what leaving it entails.

I cannot be bothered to educate you

I withdraw from this discussion in bemused exasperation

Yeah, someone who was an International Trade Officer with Customs for twenty years obviously knows nothing about the Single Market.

I certainly don't need to be 'educated' about it by a berk like you.

Collapse of stout party....

BobG

Can't answer a complete repudiation of your bullshit? Then flounce off in  huff! :silly:
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 06, 2022, 01:08:50 pm
Glyn and Wilts

Oh dear

It is clear from each of your last posts on this thread that neither of you understand what the EU Single Market is and what leaving it entails.

I cannot be bothered to educate you

I withdraw from this discussion in bemused exasperation

Yeah, someone who was an International Trade Officer with Customs for twenty years obviously knows nothing about the Single Market.

I certainly don't need to be 'educated' about it by a berk like you.

Collapse of stout party....

BobG

Can't answer a complete repudiation of your bullshit? Then flounce off in  huff! :silly:

He's a nice lad Branton (I know him vaguely) but as he has shown here anyone can let themselves be brainwashed if they want to.

Which is the objective truth at the heart of this thread. Do you want to be governed by a government who are judged by scruitny of an open factual discussion of their actions - or do you just want to believe what they want you to believe and make the facts suit?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on April 06, 2022, 03:40:42 pm
Word of the day is 'snollygoster' (19th century): an unprincipled person in office who is motivated by personal rather than public gain.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on April 06, 2022, 03:57:12 pm
We must all make it our civic duty to use 'snollygoster', with explanation, at least twice a day. What a glorious word.

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: scawsby steve on April 06, 2022, 05:38:09 pm
Word of the day is 'snollygoster' (19th century): an unprincipled person in office who is motivated by personal rather than public gain.

Bloody hell, Raven, that means every single politician is a snollygoster, seeing as there's not a single one of them that does it for nothing.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on April 06, 2022, 09:16:53 pm
Can't disagree there SS but what a cracking word eh!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on April 07, 2022, 08:29:39 pm

Can't answer a complete repudiation of your bullshit? Then flounce off in  huff! :silly:

Glyn you claim you've been a Customs official for 20 years this suggests you're an adult; yet you resort to name calling the preserve of the playground which suggests you're a child.

Saying the below leaflet doesn't say the words "Single Market" isn't a complete repudiation of my points; it just suggests you're a child of reading age.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/voteleave/pages/2318/attachments/original/1458915760/Vote_Leave_8pg_leaflet_print.pdf?1458915760

As an expert in the field you should be aware that you can't abandon freedom of movement of labour and stay in the Single Market. Therefore in Point 3 Leave are proposing leaving the Single Market.

You should also be aware that you can't make your own trade deals and stay in the Customs Union. Therefore in Point 4 Leave are proposing leaving the Customs Union.

Now can you prove you're an adult and either accept these facts or alternatively counter them with reasoned views of your own without descending into silly aggression, swearing, name calling or just making simplistic generic points? Try actually reading and then considering my words first before replying.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on April 07, 2022, 08:42:34 pm
He's a nice lad Branton (I know him vaguely) but as he has shown here anyone can let themselves be brainwashed if they want to.

Which is the objective truth at the heart of this thread. Do you want to be governed by a government who are judged by scruitny of an open factual discussion of their actions - or do you just want to believe what they want you to believe and make the facts suit?

Wilts sorry but it's the laziest of arguments that somebody who disagrees with you has been brainwashed. My views are wholly my own. Neither am I a fan of the Tories esp Boris Johnson who I've described variously on this forum as: -

- "treating the electorate with contempt"; - "a weak/disreputable individual"; - "record and actions as PM are appalling in many areas"; - "has a lack of common sense/discretion"

Does this sound like someone who has been brainwashed by the Johnson Government?!

PS Your Gove quote from earlier. He wasn't talking about staying in the Single Market after Brexit but talking up the chances of us striking a free trade deal with the EU in order to stay in the "free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey". Hint: the clue to this is in your quote as Turkey isn't in the EU or the Single Market.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 07, 2022, 09:09:22 pm
He's a nice lad Branton (I know him vaguely) but as he has shown here anyone can let themselves be brainwashed if they want to.

Which is the objective truth at the heart of this thread. Do you want to be governed by a government who are judged by scruitny of an open factual discussion of their actions - or do you just want to believe what they want you to believe and make the facts suit?

Wilts sorry but it's the laziest of arguments that somebody who disagrees with you has been brainwashed. My views are wholly my own. Neither am I a fan of the Tories esp Boris Johnson who I've described variously on this forum as: -

- "treating the electorate with contempt"; - "a weak/disreputable individual"; - "record and actions as PM are appalling in many areas"; - "has a lack of common sense/discretion"

Does this sound like someone who has been brainwashed by the Johnson Government?!

PS Your Gove quote from earlier. He wasn't talking about staying in the Single Market after Brexit but talking up the chances of us striking a free trade deal with the EU in order to stay in the "free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey". Hint: the clue to this is in your quote as Turkey isn't in the EU or the Single Market.

I wasn't referring to the Johnson government Branton.

Nor was Gove referring to a free trade deal. Hint - he doesnt mention a free trade deal but that the UK will  'remain' in a trading zone.

He apparently wanted a 'Norway' syle deal - how does that go again
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/michael-gove-discussed-keeping-britain-13021694
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on April 07, 2022, 09:26:26 pm

I wasn't referring to the Johnson government Branton.

Nor was Gove referring to a free trade deal. Hint - he doesnt mention a free trade deal but that the UK will  'remain' in a trading zone.


Wrong. Read the whole speech www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/michael-gove/michael-gove-vote-leave_b_9728548.html

"The In campaign often argues that we would find it impossible to reach a trading agreement with EU nations after we vote leave.
.......
There is a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in or out of the euro or EU. After we vote to leave we will remain in this zone. The suggestion that Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and the Ukraine would remain part of this free trade area - and Britain would be on the outside with just Belarus - is as credible as Jean-Claude Juncker joining Ukip. Agreeing to maintain this continental free trade zone is the simple course and emphatically in everyone's interests."

To repeat he wasn't talking about staying in the Single Market after Brexit but talking up the chances of us striking a free trade deal with the EU in order to stay in the "free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey".

Hint: check your sources thoroughly before quoting them - reading what you want into half-quotes is ironically just what you'd expect from someone who has actually been brainwashed.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 07, 2022, 11:23:31 pm

Can't answer a complete repudiation of your bullshit? Then flounce off in  huff! :silly:

Glyn you claim you've been a Customs official for 20 years this suggests you're an adult; yet you resort to name calling the preserve of the playground which suggests you're a child.

Saying the below leaflet doesn't say the words "Single Market" isn't a complete repudiation of my points; it just suggests you're a child of reading age.

https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/voteleave/pages/2318/attachments/original/1458915760/Vote_Leave_8pg_leaflet_print.pdf?1458915760

As an expert in the field you should be aware that you can't abandon freedom of movement of labour and stay in the Single Market. Therefore in Point 3 Leave are proposing leaving the Single Market.

You should also be aware that you can't make your own trade deals and stay in the Customs Union. Therefore in Point 4 Leave are proposing leaving the Customs Union.

Now can you prove you're an adult and either accept these facts or alternatively counter them with reasoned views of your own without descending into silly aggression, swearing, name calling or just making simplistic generic points? Try actually reading and then considering my words first before replying.

The leaflet in question is nothing more than a fluffy sales brochure and doesn't go on to talk about the implication and facts of the points made on it, take the comment about ''important countries like Australia'' are you kidding this fabulous trade deal is worth 0.8% of gdp and not till 2035, so it shouldn't have been taken seriously.

''Vote leave and possibly die before you make any money''
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 08, 2022, 10:06:55 am

I wasn't referring to the Johnson government Branton.

Nor was Gove referring to a free trade deal. Hint - he doesnt mention a free trade deal but that the UK will  'remain' in a trading zone.


Wrong. Read the whole speech www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/michael-gove/michael-gove-vote-leave_b_9728548.html

"The In campaign often argues that we would find it impossible to reach a trading agreement with EU nations after we vote leave.
.......
There is a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in or out of the euro or EU. After we vote to leave we will remain in this zone. The suggestion that Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and the Ukraine would remain part of this free trade area - and Britain would be on the outside with just Belarus - is as credible as Jean-Claude Juncker joining Ukip. Agreeing to maintain this continental free trade zone is the simple course and emphatically in everyone's interests."

To repeat he wasn't talking about staying in the Single Market after Brexit but talking up the chances of us striking a free trade deal with the EU in order to stay in the "free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey".

Hint: check your sources thoroughly before quoting them - reading what you want into half-quotes is ironically just what you'd expect from someone who has actually been brainwashed.

Hint: You check what version of 'free trade' Gove is bullshitting you with.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 08, 2022, 10:08:28 am
He's a nice lad Branton (I know him vaguely) but as he has shown here anyone can let themselves be brainwashed if they want to.

Which is the objective truth at the heart of this thread. Do you want to be governed by a government who are judged by scruitny of an open factual discussion of their actions - or do you just want to believe what they want you to believe and make the facts suit?

Wilts sorry but it's the laziest of arguments that somebody who disagrees with you has been brainwashed. My views are wholly my own. Neither am I a fan of the Tories esp Boris Johnson who I've described variously on this forum as: -

- "treating the electorate with contempt"; - "a weak/disreputable individual"; - "record and actions as PM are appalling in many areas"; - "has a lack of common sense/discretion"

Does this sound like someone who has been brainwashed by the Johnson Government?!

PS Your Gove quote from earlier. He wasn't talking about staying in the Single Market after Brexit but talking up the chances of us striking a free trade deal with the EU in order to stay in the "free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey". Hint: the clue to this is in your quote as Turkey isn't in the EU or the Single Market.

PS - Turkey IS in the EU Customs Union.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 08, 2022, 12:57:54 pm

I wasn't referring to the Johnson government Branton.

Nor was Gove referring to a free trade deal. Hint - he doesnt mention a free trade deal but that the UK will  'remain' in a trading zone.


Wrong. Read the whole speech www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/michael-gove/michael-gove-vote-leave_b_9728548.html

"The In campaign often argues that we would find it impossible to reach a trading agreement with EU nations after we vote leave.
.......
There is a free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey that all European nations have access to, regardless of whether they are in or out of the euro or EU. After we vote to leave we will remain in this zone. The suggestion that Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and the Ukraine would remain part of this free trade area - and Britain would be on the outside with just Belarus - is as credible as Jean-Claude Juncker joining Ukip. Agreeing to maintain this continental free trade zone is the simple course and emphatically in everyone's interests."

To repeat he wasn't talking about staying in the Single Market after Brexit but talking up the chances of us striking a free trade deal with the EU in order to stay in the "free trade zone stretching from Iceland to Turkey".

Hint: check your sources thoroughly before quoting them - reading what you want into half-quotes is ironically just what you'd expect from someone who has actually been brainwashed.

If he wasn't talking about the Single Market then why did he only mention we would be like countries in the Single Market.

If he was talking about having a Free Trade agreement outside the Single Market - then why did he say we would NOT be like Belorus - a country who have a free trade agreement outside the Single Market?

The quote was accurate. Your reading of it is, errr...
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on April 09, 2022, 11:05:25 am
Good grief! Have you not heard of Google? Check your 'facts' before you post on them.

Countries in the Single Market: All EU member states, Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Single_Market#/media/File:EU_Single_Market.svg

Bosnia, Serbia, Albania and Ukraine are not in the Single Market.

Belarus does not have a free trade deal with the EU. The EU refuse to grant them one, quite correctly, due to the lack of democracy in Belarus https://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/belarus/index_en.htm

Therefore he is clearly talking about the chances of striking a free trade deal not staying in the Single Market.

Want further proof? From later in the same speech: -

"It is sometimes claimed that we will only get free trade if we accept free movement. But the EU has free trade deals with nations that obviously do not involve free movement."

You cannot abolish freedom of movement and stay in the Single Market.

Have the good grace to admit that you're wrong on this.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 09, 2022, 10:03:30 pm
It depends what you're deciding to call a 'free trade deal'. That's where Gove is baffling you with bullshit.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: rich1471 on April 12, 2022, 01:51:05 pm
Just got his fine has Boris and richi ,talk your way out of this one Bonzo
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 12, 2022, 02:03:31 pm
This
https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1513862592770543617

Deliberately and knowingly misleading Parliament.

In ANY other era, this is a stone cold resigning issue.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on April 12, 2022, 02:04:04 pm
Just got his fine has Boris and richi ,talk your way out of this one Bonzo

Please don’t, just go
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 12, 2022, 02:14:47 pm
This
https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamBienkov/status/1513862592770543617

Deliberately and knowingly misleading Parliament.

In ANY other era, this is a stone cold resigning issue.

Somehow I think this era will prove to be different.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 12, 2022, 02:21:43 pm
And Carrie - therefore at least one of the fines is for a event in the Johnson's private flat.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 12, 2022, 02:29:43 pm
Just to be clear.

We now have a criminal Prime Minister.

We now have a criminal Chancellor.

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on April 12, 2022, 02:29:54 pm
Just got his fine has Boris and richi ,talk your way out of this one Bonzo

Given he always maintained there were no party’s I would assume he will be appealing this gross miscarriage of justice?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on April 12, 2022, 02:38:49 pm
This really now does have the feel of the end, same feeling as when John Majors govt was hit with some new sleaze every day.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on April 12, 2022, 02:40:09 pm
Just to be clear.

We now have a criminal Prime Minister.

We now have a criminal Chancellor.



Technically not, fixed penalty notices for covid do not lead to a criminal record according to the bbc
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ChrisBx on April 12, 2022, 02:45:30 pm
Most, if not all, families will have experienced some awful periods over the last two years. Personally, one of my grandparents spent much of the final two years of her life unable to see family members, with human contact often limited to that from care workers.

Others will have lost family members who died alone. All while these criminals held party after party. They then lied to us, seemingly with no shame.

They should both be out of office by the end of the day.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 12, 2022, 02:49:55 pm
Just to be clear.

We now have a criminal Prime Minister.

We now have a criminal Chancellor.



Technically not, fixed penalty notices for covid do not lead to a criminal record according to the bbc

Ah yes. If they were to appeal and failed. Then they would get a criminal record.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on April 12, 2022, 02:53:40 pm
Where does the Sue Gray report stand in all this now, it should be published un redacted now
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 12, 2022, 02:58:20 pm
Most, if not all, families will have experienced some awful periods over the last two years. Personally, one of my grandparents spent much of the final two years of her life unable to see family members, with human contact often limited to that from care workers.

Others will have lost family members who died alone. All while these criminals held party after party. They then lied to us, seemingly with no shame.

They should both be out of office by the end of the day.

100%.

My wife's grandmother died alone in an Italian hospital 10 months ago, with us not being able to visit her for her final 10 months on earth.

My mother had a week in hospital with a heart attack during lockdown. None of the family were able to visit her.

And these, unprincipled, entitled f**kers were holding f**king parties. And then lying about it. If they survive this, we don't deserve to have a functioning democracy.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 12, 2022, 03:07:04 pm
One parting gift from Cressida Dick of course. Imposing these fines just as Parliament goes into a two week Easter break. So Johnson doesn't have to face the Commons and answer for his crimes and his lies for a fortnight.

There will be a massive media campaign by No10 now to push an explanation, and by the time he has to face the House, this will be old news. Simply disgraceful by Dick.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 12, 2022, 03:07:56 pm
For months we could not visit my mother in law while she suffered, dying of cancer at home alone.

We finally did get to see her on the day she passed in hospital. She could not speak but they told us she could hear us. We don't know.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 12, 2022, 03:16:56 pm
One for the history books.

Boris Johnson is the first sitting PM in the history of the UK to be formally found guilty of a crime.

Some of us did warn folk what this man was like.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on April 12, 2022, 03:17:57 pm
One for the history books.

Boris Johnson is the first sitting PM in the history of the UK to be formally found guilty of a crime.

Some of us did warn folk what this man was like.

And that is why he has to go
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on April 12, 2022, 03:20:35 pm
More importantly the Chancellors wife has enquired if fines are tax deductible. She’s asking ‘ for a friend’
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 12, 2022, 03:26:27 pm
One for the history books.

Boris Johnson is the first sitting PM in the history of the UK to be formally found guilty of a crime.

Some of us did warn folk what this man was like.

And that is why he has to go

Well there's one copper-bottomed guarantee about a man (sic) who wouldn't recognise a moral if it sat on his face and farted. He's not going to resign without the Tory party insisting he goes. If he possibly can, he will ride this out.

And the initial signs don't look good.

Andrew Bridgen MP has refused to say that he will re-instate his letter of No Confidence.

Roger Gale MP who was one of the first to submit a letter of No Confidence now says Johnson shouldn't be got rid of because of Ukraine. By which logic, Lloyd-George and Churchill would never have been PM, because we shouldn't have deposed Asquith and Chamberlain during a war.

This is very simple. If the Tory MPs don't turf him out THEY are as much to blame as he is.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 12, 2022, 03:32:20 pm
Meanwhile,

In the dungeon under Barnard Castle, Dominic slowly tears the foil from the neck of an ice cold bottle of champagne...
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 12, 2022, 03:36:43 pm
Where does the Sue Gray report stand in all this now, it should be published un redacted now

An updated report on lockdown parties in No 10 will be published by Sue Gray once police finish their inquiries, Downing Street has said.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-60210893
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 12, 2022, 03:40:22 pm
The line some tory MPs are taking is they can't sack the PM in the middle of the Ukraine war.

Well, we did change PM during WWII.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: mugnapper on April 12, 2022, 03:41:52 pm
You just know that both Johnson and Sunak have got their teams working on 'how the hell do we talk our way out of this'?
And the longer it is before either makes a statement, the more ridiculous that statement will be.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on April 12, 2022, 03:46:13 pm
My mum, in a care home,  did not see her daughter once in the final 18 months of my sisters' life. She did not see me for over a year.  My mum is 90 this year. Except for carers she was alone for over a year.

Don't you just love the Tory party....

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 12, 2022, 03:47:27 pm
The line some tory MPs are taking is they can't sack the PM in the middle of the Ukraine war.

Well, we did change PM during WWII.

Hungary has just had an election and the French are in the final two weeks of their presidential election - did they not get the memo?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 12, 2022, 03:48:25 pm
May I begin by saying that I understand and share the anger up and down the country at seeing No. 10 staff seeming to make light of lockdown measures? I can understand how infuriating it must be to think that the people who have been setting the rules have not been following the rules, because I was also furious to see that clip. I apologise unreservedly for the offence that it has caused up and down the country, and I apologise for the impression that it gives.

I repeat that I have been repeatedly assured since these allegations emerged that there was no party and that no covid rules were broken. That is what I have been repeatedly assured. But I have asked the Cabinet Secretary to establish all the facts and to report back as soon as possible. It goes without saying that if those rules were broken, there will be disciplinary action for all those involved.

https://twitter.com/OliDugmore/status/1513864919996841993
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tommy toes on April 12, 2022, 03:58:07 pm
He'll put on a hair shirt and walk barefoot to the Palace and beg the Queen for forgiveness a la Henry 1.

Ah... He wont need to. All the Tory MP's seem to have been briefed to say we can't possibly change PM during a war.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 12, 2022, 03:59:28 pm
Here's another Tory MP sacrificing his dignity for Johnson. That other ridiculously coiffured blonde, Michael Fabricant.

"I don’t think that at any time [Johnson] thought that he was breaking the law. I think that at the time he thought, just like many teachers and nurses who after a very, very long shift would tend to go back to the staff room and have a quiet drink - which is more or less what he has done - but I don’t think he thought he was breaking the law."

You can see the concept. They've lied to the public for years and treated ordinary voters as if they are too thick to realise. And STILL 35% of voters say they support them. Why not go all-in?

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 12, 2022, 04:01:38 pm
The guidance and the rules were followed at all times

https://twitter.com/PaulBrandITV/status/1513863075211919364
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tommy toes on April 12, 2022, 04:09:52 pm
Brilliant and concise piece by Ian Blackford on BBC news just now.
Sets out clearly what should happen and why.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tommy toes on April 12, 2022, 04:16:05 pm
If he doesn't go then come PMQ's the opposition should just sit there and refuse to engage with the lying b**tard.
How can anybody believe a word that comes out of his gob.
The f***ing lying sh*thouse
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 12, 2022, 04:16:38 pm
The line some tory MPs are taking is they can't sack the PM in the middle of the Ukraine war.

Well, we did change PM during WWII.

Previously, we have seen the resignation of sitting PMs during:

WWII
WWI
The Crimean War
The Napoleonic War (x4 plus another one assassinated)
The American War of Independence (x2 plus another one who died in office)

In addition, Churchill was voted out as PM while WWII was still ongoing.
Anthony Eden was effectively replaced during the Suez Crisis due to a nervous breakdown.

It is absolute horseshit to say Johnson cannot be removed because of Ukraine. Those saying it have one of two motives.


1) They are paid-up Johnson supporters.
2) They know that this year is going to be horrific for people's living standards, and they know that whoever is PM is going to take a massive popularity hit. Better to leave Johnson to take the flak, then replace him if/when conditions improve so that they have a shiny new PM for the next election.

I'd like to think there are enough Tory MPs with moral standards and a backbone to do the right thing. But I'm not convinced.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on April 12, 2022, 04:23:28 pm
Who are we at war with please?

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: mugnapper on April 12, 2022, 04:28:04 pm
Who are we at war with please?

BobG

Channel 4 apparently
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on April 12, 2022, 04:37:26 pm
Aye. Another command and control exercise to favour these f**king Tory animals.

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 12, 2022, 04:38:02 pm
The line some tory MPs are taking is they can't sack the PM in the middle of the Ukraine war.

Well, we did change PM during WWII.

Previously, we have seen the resignation of sitting PMs during:

WWII
WWI
The Crimean War
The Napoleonic War (x4 plus another one assassinated)
The American War of Independence (x2 plus another one who died in office)

In addition, Churchill was voted out as PM while WWII was still ongoing.
Anthony Eden was effectively replaced during the Suez Crisis due to a nervous breakdown.

It is absolute horseshit to say Johnson cannot be removed because of Ukraine. Those saying it have one of two motives.


1) They are paid-up Johnson supporters.
2) They know that this year is going to be horrific for people's living standards, and they know that whoever is PM is going to take a massive popularity hit. Better to leave Johnson to take the flak, then replace him if/when conditions improve so that they have a shiny new PM for the next election.

I'd like to think there are enough Tory MPs with moral standards and a backbone to do the right thing. But I'm not convinced.

NB: I forgot. Clem Attlee was voted out of office during the Korean War.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 12, 2022, 04:45:02 pm
The first communication from Johnson.

Highlighting that he's been talking to Zelensky and communicating with the American president.

No mention of partygate.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on April 12, 2022, 04:47:18 pm
Standard tactic the world over for leaders in trouble.

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on April 12, 2022, 05:00:03 pm
And 1 supporter has come and said if The Clown goes Putin will be delighted......... really! The Clown is a Russian puppet can't wait till the videos from the bunga bunga banga banga parties start to circulate
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: roversdude on April 12, 2022, 05:04:54 pm
Weren’t the tories pushing for a recall to discuss Ukrainian events
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on April 12, 2022, 05:07:39 pm
Christ... There is absolutely no depth to which these horrible people will not sink is there?

BobG

PS Where has the Home Guard disappeared to?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on April 12, 2022, 05:15:49 pm
There is no bar in Downing St a suitcase is the only way to get booze in
Who voted this idiot into Parliament
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on April 12, 2022, 05:22:37 pm
Who organised these parties?
Because that’s a ten grand fine.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 12, 2022, 05:24:19 pm
Who organised these parties?
Because that’s a ten grand fine.

Well, wasn't it his wife?

She has apparently been fined but I haven't seen a report of how much.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: roversdude on April 12, 2022, 05:27:20 pm
The problem is ten grand means nothing to these idiots
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on April 12, 2022, 05:28:46 pm
My prediction.for what it’s worth.
He will ride the political storm.
But no way will he be leading the tories into the next GE.
Step forward Ms Patel.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 12, 2022, 05:30:22 pm
The problem is ten grand means nothing to these idiots

Aye. Johnson said that being paid £250k per year to write anti-EU and pro-Russia diatribes in The Telegraph was "chickenfeed". Although that didn't prevent him having to get someone else to pay for his missus's gold wallpaper in the Downing St flat (and then lie about it to his Standards Commissioner).
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on April 12, 2022, 05:37:20 pm
My prediction.for what it’s worth.
He will ride the political storm.
But no way will he be leading the tories into the next GE.
Step forward Ms Patel.

Agree NR. It's been plain for quite a while now that Fatso is the Tory Party's stalking horse. He'll move on roughly 12-18 months before the next election. Wonder what they'd do though if we are still 'at war' by then....

As for Patel, Christ. I'd have to shoot myself.

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 12, 2022, 05:39:47 pm
This is astonishing.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/04/12/c5ce0/3

After all this shit show, 45% of Tory voters are not prepared to say that Johnson lied about the parties.
37% of Leave voters similar.
39% of pensioners similar.

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/04/12/c5ce0/1
Only 25% of Tory voters, 35% of Leave voters and 42% of pensioners think Johnson should resign.

What the hell would it take to break that spell?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 12, 2022, 05:41:06 pm
The line some tory MPs are taking is they can't sack the PM in the middle of the Ukraine war.

Well, we did change PM during WWII.

Previously, we have seen the resignation of sitting PMs during:

WWII
WWI
The Crimean War
The Napoleonic War (x4 plus another one assassinated)
The American War of Independence (x2 plus another one who died in office)

In addition, Churchill was voted out as PM while WWII was still ongoing.
Anthony Eden was effectively replaced during the Suez Crisis due to a nervous breakdown.

It is absolute horseshit to say Johnson cannot be removed because of Ukraine. Those saying it have one of two motives.


1) They are paid-up Johnson supporters.
2) They know that this year is going to be horrific for people's living standards, and they know that whoever is PM is going to take a massive popularity hit. Better to leave Johnson to take the flak, then replace him if/when conditions improve so that they have a shiny new PM for the next election.

I'd like to think there are enough Tory MPs with moral standards and a backbone to do the right thing. But I'm not convinced.

Iraq - Saddam invaded Kuwait on 2nd August - Thatcher announced her resignation on 22nd November and Major took over on 28th November
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 12, 2022, 05:43:11 pm
Another Tory MP saying we should "move on" and forget all about having a criminal and a liar in No10.
https://twitter.com/JamesDuddridge/status/1513905700589690888?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

And another
https://twitter.com/amandamilling/status/1513909644548259849?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 12, 2022, 05:44:54 pm
The line some tory MPs are taking is they can't sack the PM in the middle of the Ukraine war.

Well, we did change PM during WWII.

Previously, we have seen the resignation of sitting PMs during:

WWII
WWI
The Crimean War
The Napoleonic War (x4 plus another one assassinated)
The American War of Independence (x2 plus another one who died in office)

In addition, Churchill was voted out as PM while WWII was still ongoing.
Anthony Eden was effectively replaced during the Suez Crisis due to a nervous breakdown.

It is absolute horseshit to say Johnson cannot be removed because of Ukraine. Those saying it have one of two motives.


1) They are paid-up Johnson supporters.
2) They know that this year is going to be horrific for people's living standards, and they know that whoever is PM is going to take a massive popularity hit. Better to leave Johnson to take the flak, then replace him if/when conditions improve so that they have a shiny new PM for the next election.

I'd like to think there are enough Tory MPs with moral standards and a backbone to do the right thing. But I'm not convinced.

Iraq - Saddam invaded Kuwait on 2nd August - Thatcher announced her resignation on 22nd November and Major took over on 28th November

Aye I'd forgotten that. And Blair was effectively forced into resigning by Brown when we were still engaged in active service in Iraq and Afghanistan in 2007.

Basically, this argument is a crock of shite isn't it?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BVB on April 12, 2022, 05:58:34 pm
Here's another Tory MP sacrificing his dignity for Johnson. That other ridiculously coiffured blonde, Michael Fabricant.

"I don’t think that at any time [Johnson] thought that he was breaking the law. I think that at the time he thought, just like many teachers and nurses who after a very, very long shift would tend to go back to the staff room and have a quiet drink - which is more or less what he has done - but I don’t think he thought he was breaking the law."

You can see the concept. They've lied to the public for years and treated ordinary voters as if they are too thick to realise. And STILL 35% of voters say they support them. Why not go all-in?

Teachers and nurses having a quiet one at work????
Complete f**kwit - clearly he hasn’t been in a hospital or school for decades.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 12, 2022, 06:01:50 pm
David Lammy just made a strong point on the radio.

If we don't insist on following the rule of law and the conventions of our own democracy now, then what does that say to the Ukranians, who are fighting and dying for these very principles?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on April 12, 2022, 06:02:24 pm
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears linking=topic=283810.msg1152200#msg1152200 date=1649781587
This is astonishing.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/04/12/c5ce0/3

After all this shit show, 45% of Tory voters are not prepared to say that Johnson lied about the parties.
37% of Leave voters similar.
39% of pensioners similar.



https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/04/1j2/c5ce0/1
Only 25% of Tory voters, 35% of Leave voters and 42% of pensioners think Johnson should resign.

What the hell would it take to breakfasts that spell?

Clearly, there can only be one explanation for being so far divorced from reality.  A covert Tory  campaign to ensure their future in government by giving pre frontal lobotomies to their supporters.

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on April 12, 2022, 06:27:45 pm
The news broke on the radio while we were having break at work , around 20 people in the canteen .

People were either eating or looking at their phones .

Not one person said a word , not one single word .

Read in to that what you will .
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 12, 2022, 06:54:49 pm
Astonishing paralysis of Westminster with @SamCoatesSky reporting that government were considering recall of Parliament to discuss possible use of chemical weapons in Ukraine, but now have scrapped the plans due to the fines.

So rather needing to keep Johnson in place because that would affect the response to Ukraine it seems it is exactly the opposite. Having a liar in place is affecting the response to Ukraine.

https://twitter.com/Direthoughts/status/1513890252900945932
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: idler on April 12, 2022, 06:58:27 pm
Here's another Tory MP sacrificing his dignity for Johnson. That other ridiculously coiffured blonde, Michael Fabricant.

"I don’t think that at any time [Johnson] thought that he was breaking the law. I think that at the time he thought, just like many teachers and nurses who after a very, very long shift would tend to go back to the staff room and have a quiet drink - which is more or less what he has done - but I don’t think he thought he was breaking the law."

You can see the concept. They've lied to the public for years and treated ordinary voters as if they are too thick to realise. And STILL 35% of voters say they support them. Why not go all-in?


At my daughter's school in Bradford teachers were told that under no circumstances were they to socialise with each other outside school because it would leave the the school vulnerable if a lot caught Covid at once.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: danumdon on April 12, 2022, 07:03:13 pm
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears linking=topic=283810.msg1152200#msg1152200 date=1649781587
This is astonishing.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/04/12/c5ce0/3

After all this shit show, 45% of Tory voters are not prepared to say that Johnson lied about the parties.
37% of Leave voters similar.
39% of pensioners similar.



https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/04/1j2/c5ce0/1
Only 25% of Tory voters, 35% of Leave voters and 42% of pensioners think Johnson should resign.

What the hell would it take to breakfasts that spell?

Clearly, there can only be one explanation for being so far divorced from reality.  A covert Tory  campaign to ensure their future in government by giving pre frontal lobotomies to their supporters.

BobG

I think you should take another look at those polling stats, it does not make good reading for anyone who has illusions of power when they show that the over 55's, who are the most ardent voting faction have as much trust and belief in the Labour leader than they do in this most incompetent and distrustful PM.

So basically Johnson can make a proper pigs ear of everything he touches and says but a large proportion of the voting public still trust him as much as they can bear to trust Keith. Does this say more about the UK population or the incompetents we have who wish to lead?

For the record, i believe that this PM, who should of resigned many a moon ago is a disgrace and one of the worst things that could happen to this country, but the Uk public could still not bring itself to vote for the alternative and in all probability will still hold its nose and vote for this slime-ball or his successor.

What does that say for the caliber of opposition we have standing for high office in this country?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on April 12, 2022, 07:17:19 pm
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears linking=topic=283810.msg1152200#msg1152200 date=1649781587
This is astonishing.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/04/12/c5ce0/3

After all this shit show, 45% of Tory voters are not prepared to say that Johnson lied about the parties.
37% of Leave voters similar.
39% of pensioners similar.



https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/04/1j2/c5ce0/1
Only 25% of Tory voters, 35% of Leave voters and 42% of pensioners think Johnson should resign.

What the hell would it take to breakfasts that spell?

Clearly, there can only be one explanation for being so far divorced from reality.  A covert Tory  campaign to ensure their future in government by giving pre frontal lobotomies to their supporters.

BobG

I think you should take another look at those polling stats, it does not make good reading for anyone who has illusions of power when they show that the over 55's, who are the most ardent voting faction have as much trust and belief in the Labour leader than they do in this most incompetent and distrustful PM.

So basically Johnson can make a proper pigs ear of everything he touches and says but a large proportion of the voting public still trust him as much as they can bear to trust Keith. Does this say more about the UK population or the incompetents we have who wish to lead?

For the record, i believe that this PM, who should of resigned many a moon ago is a disgrace and one of the worst things that could happen to this country, but the Uk public could still not bring itself to vote for the alternative and in all probability will still hold its nose and vote for this slime-ball or his successor.

What does that say for the caliber of opposition we have standing for high office in this country?

Whilst I don't think Starmer is exactly all that by any means your analysis fails to acknowledge a number of things .

The people who have absolutely no interest in politics .

The people who are totally disenfranchised from the two main political party's .

The FPTP voting system , Labour won 150 seats on just over 30% of the vote , second Blair win I believe , could be wrong mind .





Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 12, 2022, 07:33:36 pm
Boris's party might be as poor as Donny Rovers in football terms but as long as they are up against Crewe Alexandra on the other side of the house they will quite happily play them every week.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: roversdude on April 12, 2022, 07:48:05 pm
Here's another Tory MP sacrificing his dignity for Johnson. That other ridiculously coiffured blonde, Michael Fabricant.

"I don’t think that at any time [Johnson] thought that he was breaking the law. I think that at the time he thought, just like many teachers and nurses who after a very, very long shift would tend to go back to the staff room and have a quiet drink - which is more or less what he has done - but I don’t think he thought he was breaking the law."

You can see the concept. They've lied to the public for years and treated ordinary voters as if they are too thick to realise. And STILL 35% of voters say they support them. Why not go all-in?

Teachers and nurses having a quiet one at work????
Complete f**kwit - clearly he hasn’t been in a hospital or school for decades.


Can’t remember my Mrs stopping for a drink in the staff room after the bell had gone - what a load of toss, stop insulting people you entitled git
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: roversdude on April 12, 2022, 07:50:33 pm
Sorry just to clarify that was aimed at Bono
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: danumdon on April 12, 2022, 07:51:14 pm
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears linking=topic=283810.msg1152200#msg1152200 date=1649781587
This is astonishing.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/04/12/c5ce0/3

After all this shit show, 45% of Tory voters are not prepared to say that Johnson lied about the parties.
37% of Leave voters similar.
39% of pensioners similar.



https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/04/1j2/c5ce0/1
Only 25% of Tory voters, 35% of Leave voters and 42% of pensioners think Johnson should resign.

What the hell would it take to breakfasts that spell?

Clearly, there can only be one explanation for being so far divorced from reality.  A covert Tory  campaign to ensure their future in government by giving pre frontal lobotomies to their supporters.

BobG

I think you should take another look at those polling stats, it does not make good reading for anyone who has illusions of power when they show that the over 55's, who are the most ardent voting faction have as much trust and belief in the Labour leader than they do in this most incompetent and distrustful PM.

So basically Johnson can make a proper pigs ear of everything he touches and says but a large proportion of the voting public still trust him as much as they can bear to trust Keith. Does this say more about the UK population or the incompetents we have who wish to lead?

For the record, i believe that this PM, who should of resigned many a moon ago is a disgrace and one of the worst things that could happen to this country, but the Uk public could still not bring itself to vote for the alternative and in all probability will still hold its nose and vote for this slime-ball or his successor.

What does that say for the caliber of opposition we have standing for high office in this country?

Whilst I don't think Starmer is exactly all that by any means your analysis fails to acknowledge a number of things .

The people who have absolutely no interest in politics .

The people who are totally disenfranchised from the two main political party's .

The FPTP voting system , Labour won 150 seats on just over 30% of the vote , second Blair win I believe , could be wrong mind .







Tyke not sure if you were replying to me but if you were.

The people who have no interest in politics or who are disenfranchised from the two main party's have in all seriousness made themselves irrelevant in the face of the voting constitution of the country, that includes the first past the post system of voting as no party in the UK would, whist in power ever have the gumption to remove it for any other system of voting.

Its a great shame that we as a nation have these two, foul and incompetent party's that will form the next and subsequent governments.

It can't stand the posturing little weasel in France but its a shame we as a nation cannot have someone to cut through the crap and announce themselves on the political stage as he did.

They say that you get the government you deserve, then someone somewhere has been really bad!!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 12, 2022, 08:05:46 pm
Sorry just to clarify that was aimed at Bono

A bit close to the edge there.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: roversdude on April 12, 2022, 08:17:53 pm
 :thumbsup:
Sorry just to clarify that was aimed at Bono

A bit close to the edge there.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ChrisBx on April 12, 2022, 08:18:06 pm
There's a noticeable silence from Sunak tonight. I wonder if he realises his political ambitions have been all-but killed off this week and is therefore considering his position. His resignation would cause major problems for Johnson.


Edit: And as soon as I say that, he's issued a statement in which he apologises.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on April 12, 2022, 08:30:11 pm
Oh that's all right then.

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ChrisBx on April 12, 2022, 08:32:59 pm
Oh that's all right then.

BobG

I'm not saying that. My previous posts make it clear I think they should resign.

My point was about whether Sunak would break rank and resign, however that clearly won't be happening in the immediate future.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 12, 2022, 08:37:29 pm
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears linking=topic=283810.msg1152200#msg1152200 date=1649781587
This is astonishing.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/04/12/c5ce0/3

After all this shit show, 45% of Tory voters are not prepared to say that Johnson lied about the parties.
37% of Leave voters similar.
39% of pensioners similar.



https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/04/1j2/c5ce0/1
Only 25% of Tory voters, 35% of Leave voters and 42% of pensioners think Johnson should resign.

What the hell would it take to breakfasts that spell?

Clearly, there can only be one explanation for being so far divorced from reality.  A covert Tory  campaign to ensure their future in government by giving pre frontal lobotomies to their supporters.

BobG

I think you should take another look at those polling stats, it does not make good reading for anyone who has illusions of power when they show that the over 55's, who are the most ardent voting faction have as much trust and belief in the Labour leader than they do in this most incompetent and distrustful PM.

So basically Johnson can make a proper pigs ear of everything he touches and says but a large proportion of the voting public still trust him as much as they can bear to trust Keith. Does this say more about the UK population or the incompetents we have who wish to lead?

For the record, i believe that this PM, who should of resigned many a moon ago is a disgrace and one of the worst things that could happen to this country, but the Uk public could still not bring itself to vote for the alternative and in all probability will still hold its nose and vote for this slime-ball or his successor.

What does that say for the caliber of opposition we have standing for high office in this country?
Alternatively, what does it say about over-55s?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on April 12, 2022, 08:45:10 pm
Word of the day is 'maw-worm' (19th century): one who insists that they have done nothing wrong, despite evidence to the contrary.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: danumdon on April 12, 2022, 08:57:03 pm
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears linking=topic=283810.msg1152200#msg1152200 date=1649781587
This is astonishing.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/04/12/c5ce0/3

After all this shit show, 45% of Tory voters are not prepared to say that Johnson lied about the parties.
37% of Leave voters similar.
39% of pensioners similar.



https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/04/1j2/c5ce0/1
Only 25% of Tory voters, 35% of Leave voters and 42% of pensioners think Johnson should resign.

What the hell would it take to breakfasts that spell?

Clearly, there can only be one explanation for being so far divorced from reality.  A covert Tory  campaign to ensure their future in government by giving pre frontal lobotomies to their supporters.

BobG

I think you should take another look at those polling stats, it does not make good reading for anyone who has illusions of power when they show that the over 55's, who are the most ardent voting faction have as much trust and belief in the Labour leader than they do in this most incompetent and distrustful PM.

So basically Johnson can make a proper pigs ear of everything he touches and says but a large proportion of the voting public still trust him as much as they can bear to trust Keith. Does this say more about the UK population or the incompetents we have who wish to lead?

For the record, i believe that this PM, who should of resigned many a moon ago is a disgrace and one of the worst things that could happen to this country, but the Uk public could still not bring itself to vote for the alternative and in all probability will still hold its nose and vote for this slime-ball or his successor.

What does that say for the caliber of opposition we have standing for high office in this country?
Alternatively, what does it say about over-55s?

I don’t know, why don’t you ask them, they are after all the ones who bother to vote so they tend to get their wishes.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 12, 2022, 09:17:14 pm
Watching this unfold tonight. It's really very sad.

This is doing huge damage to British demcracy. It's doing damage to the standing of the country. It's not political.

We are really going down the pan.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on April 12, 2022, 09:24:05 pm
Oh that's all right then.

BobG

I'm not saying that. My previous posts make it clear I think they should resign.

My point was about whether Sunak would break rank and resign, however that clearly won't be happening in the immediate future.

My comment was extremely tongue in cheek ChrisBX. I wasn't having a go at anybody. Well, excepting Sunak of course.

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on April 12, 2022, 09:57:28 pm
Quote from: BillyStubbsTears linking=topic=283810.msg1152200#msg1152200 date=1649781587
This is astonishing.
https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/04/12/c5ce0/3

After all this shit show, 45% of Tory voters are not prepared to say that Johnson lied about the parties.
37% of Leave voters similar.
39% of pensioners similar.



https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/survey-results/daily/2022/04/1j2/c5ce0/1
Only 25% of Tory voters, 35% of Leave voters and 42% of pensioners think Johnson should resign.

What the hell would it take to breakfasts that spell?

Clearly, there can only be one explanation for being so far divorced from reality.  A covert Tory  campaign to ensure their future in government by giving pre frontal lobotomies to their supporters.

BobG

I think you should take another look at those polling stats, it does not make good reading for anyone who has illusions of power when they show that the over 55's, who are the most ardent voting faction have as much trust and belief in the Labour leader than they do in this most incompetent and distrustful PM.

So basically Johnson can make a proper pigs ear of everything he touches and says but a large proportion of the voting public still trust him as much as they can bear to trust Keith. Does this say more about the UK population or the incompetents we have who wish to lead?

For the record, i believe that this PM, who should of resigned many a moon ago is a disgrace and one of the worst things that could happen to this country, but the Uk public could still not bring itself to vote for the alternative and in all probability will still hold its nose and vote for this slime-ball or his successor.

What does that say for the caliber of opposition we have standing for high office in this country?
Alternatively, what does it say about over-55s?

I don’t know, why don’t you ask them, they are after all the ones who bother to vote so they tend to get their wishes.

He has a thing about slating older people, especially pensioners.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 12, 2022, 10:17:25 pm
Bravo to all those taking attention away from the point of the thread and the criminality of the PM and treasurer in a strong rear guard action, it took some doing but you did it.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 12, 2022, 10:20:43 pm
Next PMQ.

This Twitter thread should be read out to Johnson, with the question: would he meet this woman face to face and explain his miserable f**king excuse to her?

https://mobile.twitter.com/Poppyjuice/status/1513957117488685071
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: roversdude on April 12, 2022, 10:23:39 pm
So the official line must be “they’ve accepted responsibility and now we move on” with how May variations of this have been rolled out this evening
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 12, 2022, 10:30:10 pm
I think they will only be moving on to the next one.

The police appear to be rolling out these fines on an event-by-event basis. Last week's fines were for a leaving do, today's for Johnson's birthday party. How many were they looking into in total 12-18 something like that? Only one way this wont be in the news for a while yet.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on April 12, 2022, 10:36:33 pm
Weren’t people suggesting that the photos that were leaked of the garden party were taken by Sunak?
That accusation is looking unlikely now.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 12, 2022, 10:38:54 pm
I think they will only be moving on to the next one.

The police appear to be rolling out these fines on an event-by-event basis. Last week's fines were for a leaving do, today's for Johnson's birthday party. How many were they looking into in total 12-18 something like that? Only one way this wont be in the news for a while yet.

Attending more than one party should mean more than one fine?

You can't take a bunch of fines and decide just to pay one of them.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on April 12, 2022, 10:41:21 pm
Labour has to be all over this day after day after day embarrass every one of the entitled t**ts on the Government bench
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 12, 2022, 10:45:11 pm
If fixed penalties were issued for lying ..................
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 12, 2022, 10:47:34 pm
I was only breaking the law for 10 minutes ...............

''Speaking on Tuesday, the PM claimed the event he was fined for was "a brief gathering" that lasted "less than 10 minutes".

He added: "In all frankness, at that time it did not occur to me that this might have been a breach of the rules.

"But, of course, the police have found otherwise and I fully respect the outcome of their investigation."''
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 12, 2022, 10:54:37 pm
Here are some of the denials from the liar

https://youtu.be/GkszkSuBnlQ
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on April 12, 2022, 11:14:02 pm
I think they will only be moving on to the next one.

The police appear to be rolling out these fines on an event-by-event basis. Last week's fines were for a leaving do, today's for Johnson's birthday party. How many were they looking into in total 12-18 something like that? Only one way this wont be in the news for a while yet.

Attending more than one party should mean more than one fine?


You can't take a bunch of fines and decide just to pay one of them.

The police will be issuing fines on an event by event basis.
Clearly that is what wilts was saying too.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on April 12, 2022, 11:15:13 pm
Labour has to be all over this day after day after day embarrass every one of the entitled t**ts on the Government bench

They will be letting themselves down if they don’t Filo.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Donnywolf on April 13, 2022, 05:05:37 am
Word of the day is 'maw-worm' (19th century): one who insists that they have done nothing wrong, despite evidence to the contrary.

I would have thought Word of the day should be "more-shite" but the same definition applies
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 13, 2022, 09:27:32 am
Are we going to have to suffer johnson weaselling until the next sitting of the HoC just to hear him lie his head off that he didn't deliberately mislead parliament?

Maybe the only hope is that Sunak resigns and drags him down along with him.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on April 13, 2022, 09:32:14 am
Are we going to have to suffer johnson weaselling until the next sitting of the HoC just to hear him lie his head off that he didn't deliberately mislead parliament?

Maybe the only hope is that Sunak resigns and drags him down along with him.

Not a chance, all but 4 ministers have publicly backed him, everyone of them a brown noseing weasel
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 13, 2022, 10:08:29 am
So they are pretty much all sticking to the "Ukraine...move on" line.

Just a thought. Would you really want someone who is unable to tell when he's at a party, in charge in a major international crisis?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Donnywolf on April 13, 2022, 10:41:15 am
Next phase .... Putin leaves Ukraine one way or another

Johnson hailed as hero (by himself of course) and MPs then say " well it would be unfair" to remove someone with such huge leadership credentials and qualities

Carry on ad infinitum with the can kicking
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 13, 2022, 12:43:45 pm
I guess there's one tiny positive.

After this, no-one able to function in an adult world will EVER again say "All politicians are as bad as each other" and expect to be treated respectfully.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 13, 2022, 12:50:21 pm
No change there then. You don't treat anyone who has a different view to you respectfully anyway.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 13, 2022, 12:55:26 pm
BB.
I treat many people with a different view to me with respect. The only ones I don't respect are those who earn disrespect.

Such as, for example, people who's only contribution to a topic like this is to have a direct attack at someone they disagree with. I don't respect folk like that.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 13, 2022, 01:00:00 pm
Ah, you mean like your only contribution to a topic is to directly attack Boris Johnson or the Tory party in general? Does this mean you don't even respect yourself?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on April 13, 2022, 01:01:57 pm
Good to see the regular deflectors are out instead of commenting on the topic
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: glosterred on April 13, 2022, 01:04:26 pm
Well, Boris isn’t the first PM to get a fine is he


Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 13, 2022, 01:09:28 pm
Good to see the regular deflectors are out instead of commenting on the topic

My comments were not in any way deflecting from the topic, they were a direct response to your leader's comment.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: roversdude on April 13, 2022, 01:11:06 pm
Don’t remember him saying he definitely hadn’t driven into a congestion area though, or that he saw the signs but didn’t realise he was on the wrong side of them
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 13, 2022, 01:14:10 pm
Ah, you mean like your only contribution to a topic is to directly attack Boris Johnson or the Tory party in general? Does this mean you don't even respect yourself?

If you think that refusing to criticise the only PM in history who set a law, repeatedly exhorted us to follow it, broke it repeatedly in the middle of a national emergency, lied about it repeatedly then was found guilty is something to be proud of, then you are one of the reasons why our political system is so f**ked.

Of course you DO think Johnson was wrong to do all those things. I get that. But you can't bring yourself to say it, so you have a go at people who do instead. Which is a very good example of why you don't deserve to be respected.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 13, 2022, 01:17:04 pm
Well, Boris isn’t the first PM to get a fine is he




And here's a perfect example of someone scratting around to try to provide faux-balance. Quite sad to observe really.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 13, 2022, 01:42:05 pm
Ah, you mean like your only contribution to a topic is to directly attack Boris Johnson or the Tory party in general? Does this mean you don't even respect yourself?

If you think that refusing to criticise the only PM in history who set a law, repeatedly exhorted us to follow it, broke it repeatedly in the middle of a national emergency, lied about it repeatedly then was found guilty is something to be proud of, then you are one of the reasons why our political system is so f**ked.

Of course you DO think Johnson was wrong to do all those things. I get that. But you can't bring yourself to say it, so you have a go at people who do instead. Which is a very good example of why you don't deserve to be respected.

Of course, Johnson was wrong. He himself has admitted he was. The problem I have with it is people who, like you, go on and on and on and on and on and on about it because you have got absolutely f**k all other ways to support your beloved Labour party other than to say how bad the Tories are.

Don't you think your beloved Labour party has done worse things in the past than have illegal parties? No? Then THAT'S why our political system is f**ked.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on April 13, 2022, 01:44:35 pm
I was right wasn't I....

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 13, 2022, 01:45:42 pm
I was right wasn't I....

BobG

I must have missed that. When?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 13, 2022, 02:08:03 pm
You were Bob. Some people are simply beyond reasoning with. With some it's always "Whatabout...?" With some it's always "You support the other side so I won't accept your analysis."

It's the very, very most tribal of people refusing to engage in discussion about issues because they assume everyone else is as impervious to reasoned argument as they are.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 13, 2022, 02:10:13 pm
Ah, you mean like your only contribution to a topic is to directly attack Boris Johnson or the Tory party in general? Does this mean you don't even respect yourself?

If you think that refusing to criticise the only PM in history who set a law, repeatedly exhorted us to follow it, broke it repeatedly in the middle of a national emergency, lied about it repeatedly then was found guilty is something to be proud of, then you are one of the reasons why our political system is so f**ked.

Of course you DO think Johnson was wrong to do all those things. I get that. But you can't bring yourself to say it, so you have a go at people who do instead. Which is a very good example of why you don't deserve to be respected.

Of course, Johnson was wrong. He himself has admitted he was. The problem I have with it is people who, like you, go on and on and on and on and on and on about it because you have got absolutely f**k all other ways to support your beloved Labour party other than to say how bad the Tories are.

Don't you think your beloved Labour party has done worse things in the past than have illegal parties? No? Then THAT'S why our political system is f**ked.

Simple, direct question.

When a PM is found to have broken a law that he himself brought in, a law that was designed to limit the effect of an epidemic that was killing 1250 people a day at its worst, should he resign?

Yes or no?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 13, 2022, 02:12:32 pm
You were Bob. Some people are simply beyond reasoning with. With some it's always "Whatabout...?" With some it's always "You support the other side so I won't accept your analysis."

It's the very, very most tribal of people refusing to engage in discussion about issues because they assume everyone else is as impervious to reasoned argument as they are.
Less of the psychoanalysis and more answers, please.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 13, 2022, 02:21:39 pm
Was that a yes or a no BB?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: big fat yorkshire pudding on April 13, 2022, 02:24:53 pm
Ah, you mean like your only contribution to a topic is to directly attack Boris Johnson or the Tory party in general? Does this mean you don't even respect yourself?

If you think that refusing to criticise the only PM in history who set a law, repeatedly exhorted us to follow it, broke it repeatedly in the middle of a national emergency, lied about it repeatedly then was found guilty is something to be proud of, then you are one of the reasons why our political system is so f**ked.

Of course you DO think Johnson was wrong to do all those things. I get that. But you can't bring yourself to say it, so you have a go at people who do instead. Which is a very good example of why you don't deserve to be respected.

Of course, Johnson was wrong. He himself has admitted he was. The problem I have with it is people who, like you, go on and on and on and on and on and on about it because you have got absolutely f**k all other ways to support your beloved Labour party other than to say how bad the Tories are.

Don't you think your beloved Labour party has done worse things in the past than have illegal parties? No? Then THAT'S why our political system is f**ked.

Simple, direct question.

When a PM is found to have broken a law that he himself brought in, a law that was designed to limit the effect of an epidemic that was killing 1250 people a day at its worst, should he resign?

Yes or no?

He should resign because of the whole of the party stuff, that's obvious.  Ironically though the one he's been fined for (so far) probably is negligible because it is true that many did things like that in their workplaces at times and it's pretty minor. The other stuff, absolutely not and I hope they pull him up on it.

As for your point on Ukraine, he's led well on that imo, but that doesn't excuse the things that went on around his property and the lies that followed.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 13, 2022, 02:25:39 pm
Was that a yes or a no BB?
I know you're not one for answering questions, Billy lad, but from now on I will insist you do, then we'll move on.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 13, 2022, 02:39:27 pm
BB
Why on earth would you come on this thread throwing complaints about what other people think, but not be prepared to state what you think?

Oh yeah! Sorry, I remember. You're not interested in discussion. You only ever want an argument.

Dead simple question. Do you think he should resign?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 13, 2022, 02:39:58 pm
I see the Professor for Arguing The Toss is back firing on all cylinders.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 13, 2022, 02:41:32 pm
BB
Why on earth would you come on this thread throwing complaints about what other people think, but not be prepared to state what you think?

Oh yeah! Sorry, I remember. You're not interested in discussion. You only ever want an argument.

Dead simple question. Do you think he should resign?
Answer the f**king question man!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 13, 2022, 02:53:28 pm
I don't think any senior Labour Cabinet Minister has ever been found guilty of breaking a law.

I think there are other things done by Labour leaders that demanded their resignation. That's why I left the Labour party and refused to vote for them while Blair was PM after the Iraq invasion.

But that was a policy issue. The point about Johnson is different and unique. He has unarguably broken a law. He's unarguably and repeatedly lied about it in Parliament.

I ask one last time. Do you think he should resign?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: glosterred on April 13, 2022, 03:04:10 pm
Well, Boris isn’t the first PM to get a fine is he




And here's a perfect example of someone scratting around to try to provide faux-balance. Quite sad to observe really.

Sad maybe but I learnt it from those on here that do exactly the same whenever some one attacks Labour.


Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 13, 2022, 03:29:55 pm
I don't think any senior Labour Cabinet Minister has ever been found guilty of breaking a law.

I think there are other things done by Labour leaders that demanded their resignation. That's why I left the Labour party and refused to vote for them while Blair was PM after the Iraq invasion.

But that was a policy issue. The point about Johnson is different and unique. He has unarguably broken a law. He's unarguably and repeatedly lied about it in Parliament.

I ask one last time. Do you think he should resign?
Thanks. That answers my question that a Labour party PM has done far FAR worse deeds than attending an illegal party.

Now I'll answer your question. Johnson was the subject of a surprise presentation for his birthday, where colleagues passed on their best wishes. He said it did not occur to him that this might have been a breach of the rules. He respects the outcome of the police investigation and admits that on reflection it was a mistake. Perhaps there is a case for him to resign, and perhaps there is a case for him not to. Maybe the view of some of his colleagues that he should stay put makes sense, under the circumstances.

Either way, I know your insistence that he should resign is based purely on your blatant political bias, hence your bending over backwards to defend Starmer standing in a window supping beer in what more or less amounts to the same thing.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on April 13, 2022, 03:43:47 pm
Ah, you mean like your only contribution to a topic is to directly attack Boris Johnson or the Tory party in general? Does this mean you don't even respect yourself?

If you think that refusing to criticise the only PM in history who set a law, repeatedly exhorted us to follow it, broke it repeatedly in the middle of a national emergency, lied about it repeatedly then was found guilty is something to be proud of, then you are one of the reasons why our political system is so f**ked.

Of course you DO think Johnson was wrong to do all those things. I get that. But you can't bring yourself to say it, so you have a go at people who do instead. Which is a very good example of why you don't deserve to be respected.

Of course, Johnson was wrong. He himself has admitted he was. The problem I have with it is people who, like you, go on and on and on and on and on and on about it because you have got absolutely f**k all other ways to support your beloved Labour party other than to say how bad the Tories are.

Don't you think your beloved Labour party has done worse things in the past than have illegal parties? No? Then THAT'S why our political system is f**ked.

Simple, direct question.

When a PM is found to have broken a law that he himself brought in, a law that was designed to limit the effect of an epidemic that was killing 1250 people a day at its worst, should he resign?

Yes or no?

Unequivocally yes
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: glosterred on April 13, 2022, 03:58:25 pm
Saw this on Twitter and it sums up many a thread on this forum and this one in particular

Every single one of us is more lenient and willing to overlook foibles and transgressions of our own political 'side' than the other. Am surprised anyone thinks otherwise to be honest


Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on April 13, 2022, 04:03:10 pm
It’s hard to see how Johnson’s position is tenable any more.
The public perception of what has happened vs reality is simply tipped way too far into   The Unacceptable.
He will step aside before the next GE. I can’t see him wanting to stick around and face the consequences of any Tory failure at his hands.

And before anyone jumps down my throat re my comment about perception, I’ve asked myself this before posting:
How many people would have been working in 10 Downing st on the day of this birthday party. 10? 50? 100? More?
That, we will never know. 10 Downing st is not a huge cavernous space where even a couple of dozen people can go about their business without coming into Contact with each other. And I would imagine it was quite a busy place at that time.
So social distancing would have been problematic, if not impossible. The rule at the time was no more than two indoors. If anyone thinks Downing st would be operating with this rule at any time during the pandemic, then they are quite frankly crackers. This adds context to me. Which the general public simply don’t take into consideration. Especially if you are looking to point the finger and nail people to masts.
Forgetting political allegiances, this is a place where the PM, any PM, lives and works.
To be in an office with others discussing a global pandemic, as they would have been , and then to walk into another where a supposed surprise birthday event is being held for the PM is probably where they were at with this.
Broke the law? Yes, to the letter. But with levels of mitigation. Was it a bad decision. Certainly. Did they set out to piss off the general public, most probably not.
Were they in an environment already where the law was probably being broken every hour of every day during their normal working protocol. Highly likely.
Is Downing Street afforded any sort of special discompensation for what goes on in there. Obviously not, in many peoples eyes.
Workers in the public sector went about their business during the pandemic in close contact with tens of thousands of people on a daily basis. Because doing their job was more important than keeping themselves safe. Doctors, nurses, fire service, police.
Govt officials discussing a global pandemic together was important too. Partying afterwards wasn’t. But they would have been in close contact throughout all of this.
The word “party” has sent this whole thing into a shitstorm. Had it been “cabinet officials gather for and end of day cup of tea “ I can’t imagine people would be foaming at the mouth about it like they are now.
The subsequent attempted cover up and blithering is where the real damage has been done though. I would have had more respect for them if they just came out and owned it from the off. Put hand up and said it how it is, and why.
I’m not excusing what has happened. Just adding my rationale. And some context.
Something the MSM don’t do very often.

And before anyone asks me, I really don’t care if he resigns or not. If he does he will be replaced. If he steps down, he will be replaced.


Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 13, 2022, 04:21:57 pm
BB

You haven't come remotely close to answering my question. I asked what YOUR opinion was, not what the Tory party line was.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 13, 2022, 04:26:14 pm
For what my opinion is worth, I think he should not resign.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 13, 2022, 04:27:13 pm
Saw this on Twitter and it sums up many a thread on this forum and this one in particular

Every single one of us is more lenient and willing to overlook foibles and transgressions of our own political 'side' than the other. Am surprised anyone thinks otherwise to be honest




And THIS is precisely what I was saying earlier. This is the normalisation of previously unacceptable behaviour by the line "well the other side wouldn't be any better."


There's a massive elephant in the room for anyone who subscribes to that opinion. The other side HASN'T done anything remotely like this. No PM of any party in our entire history has ever passed a law aimed at protecting lives in a medical crisis, then broken that law, then repeatedly lied about breaking that law, then been found guilty of breaking the law, and accepted that guilty verdict and not resigned.

If a Labour PM had ever done a quarter of that, I would be screaming for them to resign.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 13, 2022, 04:29:01 pm
For what my opinion is worth, I think he should not resign.

Well that took some wringing out of you. But at least we have it on record that a PM can break the law and lie to Parliament about breaking the law and you still think he should be PM. Thanks. I'll keep that in mind if you ever contribute on related issues in future.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 13, 2022, 04:32:11 pm
Saw this on Twitter and it sums up many a thread on this forum and this one in particular

Every single one of us is more lenient and willing to overlook foibles and transgressions of our own political 'side' than the other. Am surprised anyone thinks otherwise to be honest




And THIS is precisely what I was saying earlier. This is the normalisation of previously unacceptable behaviour by the line "well the other side wouldn't be any better."


There's a massive elephant in the room for anyone who subscribes to that opinion. The other side HASN'T done anything remotely like this. No PM of any party in our entire history has ever passed a law aimed at protecting lives in a medical crisis, then broken that law, then repeatedly lied about breaking that law, then been found guilty of breaking the law, and accepted that guilty verdict and not resigned.

If a Labour PM had ever done a quarter of that, I would be screaming for them to resign.

So, boozing in full view of the public through a window during restrictions was not even a quarter of receiving a cake on your birthday?

You're taking the piss, just as much as Starmer was.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 13, 2022, 04:35:07 pm
For what my opinion is worth, I think he should not resign.

Well that took some wringing out of you. But at least we have it on record that a PM can break the law and lie to Parliament about breaking the law and you still think he should be PM. Thanks. I'll keep that in mind if you ever contribute on related issues in future.

We! Always makes me giggle, that. Like I'm supposed to feel threatened by your little handful of disciples!

Yep, still think Boris represents democracy more than Starmer does.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 13, 2022, 04:48:10 pm
Saw this on Twitter and it sums up many a thread on this forum and this one in particular

Every single one of us is more lenient and willing to overlook foibles and transgressions of our own political 'side' than the other. Am surprised anyone thinks otherwise to be honest




Not true at all. There are several prominent Tory's on here who have no problem in criticising criminal actions by their own leader - and fair play to all of them.

The radio is full of people who say they have voted Tory all their life - and never will again - or at least as long as Johnson is leader.

Some of their more prominent critics of Starmer are Labour supporters. Just as those of Corbyn were too.

Johnson is a different kind of leader - a man with no principles, political or otherwise, who wants power purely for the sake of having power and will do whatever it takes to hang onto it. He attracts likeminded disciples. As you can see on this thread.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 13, 2022, 04:59:56 pm
"Ultimately, this controversy is about two questions: should a prime minister obey the laws that he imposes on others; and is it acceptable for a prime minister to mislead parliament?"

If Conservative MPs choose to keep the prime minister in power, they will be declaring that following the law and telling the truth are no longer important:

https://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/politics/why-johnson-must-be-removed-fines-partygate-lockdown
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on April 13, 2022, 06:00:07 pm
Saw this on Twitter and it sums up many a thread on this forum and this one in particular

Every single one of us is more lenient and willing to overlook foibles and transgressions of our own political 'side' than the other. Am surprised anyone thinks otherwise to be honest




Not true at all. There are several prominent Tory's on here who have no problem in criticising criminal actions by their own leader - and fair play to all of them.

The radio is full of people who say they have voted Tory all their life - and never will again - or at least as long as Johnson is leader.

Some of their more prominent critics of Starmer are Labour supporters. Just as those of Corbyn were too.

Johnson is a different kind of leader - a man with no principles, political or otherwise, who wants power purely for the sake of having power and will do whatever it takes to hang onto it. He attracts likeminded disciples. As you can see on this thread.

Hi wilts.
I am curious about who you see as prominent Tory’s on the forum.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: rich1471 on April 13, 2022, 06:34:07 pm
Ah, you mean like your only contribution to a topic is to directly attack Boris Johnson or the Tory party in general? Does this mean you don't even respect yourself?

If you think that refusing to criticise the only PM in history who set a law, repeatedly exhorted us to follow it, broke it repeatedly in the middle of a national emergency, lied about it repeatedly then was found guilty is something to be proud of, then you are one of the reasons why our political system is so f**ked.

Of course you DO think Johnson was wrong to do all those things. I get that. But you can't bring yourself to say it, so you have a go at people who do instead. Which is a very good example of why you don't deserve to be respected.

Of course, Johnson was wrong. He himself has admitted he was. The problem I have with it is people who, like you, go on and on and on and on and on and on about it because you have got absolutely f**k all other ways to support your beloved Labour party other than to say how bad the Tories are.

Don't you think your beloved Labour party has done worse things in the past than have illegal parties? No? Then THAT'S why our political system is f**ked.

Simple, direct question.

When a PM is found to have broken a law that he himself brought in, a law that was designed to limit the effect of an epidemic that was killing 1250 people a day at its worst, should he resign?

Yes or no?

He should resign because of the whole of the party stuff, that's obvious.  Ironically though the one he's been fined for (so far) probably is negligible because it is true that many did things like that in their workplaces at times and it's pretty minor. The other stuff, absolutely not and I hope they pull him up on it.

As for your point on Ukraine, he's led well on that imo, but that doesn't excuse the things that went on around his property and the lies that followed.
when I worked in lockdown at a restaurant the police and council COVID wardens were always around checking up on what was going on ,The police stand outside number 10 ,what did they think they were doing when someone turns up with snacks and beer ,doing a tombola,There could be more fines on the way for the boris
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 13, 2022, 06:34:07 pm
Ultimately the Police decided they needed to investigate the No10 parties, despite at first being highly resistant to it.

No doubt there will have been complaints made against Starmer after the beer photo emerged. The Police have decided there is no need to investigate.

Now in the opinion of the Police, at least one of the No10 parties broke the law and they have sanctioned those involved. That is it. This isn't a matter of political opinion. The police have guidelines and the law has been broken.

I can't see there is any debate to be had.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 13, 2022, 06:46:37 pm
You're wasting your time RD. He's beyond talking to. He's obsessed with the idea that, because Starmer once slipped up in an angry exchange in the House, said something wrong and corrected it shortly after, he's a liar just like Johnson is.

Actually,vi suspect he doesn't really believe that, but he needs to claim he does just so he can make his point in here. Either way, he's beyond reasoning with. One day I'll stop biting.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: big fat yorkshire pudding on April 13, 2022, 07:01:37 pm
You're wasting your time RD. He's beyond talking to. He's obsessed with the idea that, because Starmer once slipped up in an angry exchange in the House, said something wrong and corrected it shortly after, he's a liar just like Johnson is.

Actually,vi suspect he doesn't really believe that, but he needs to claim he does just so he can make his point in here. Either way, he's beyond reasoning with. One day I'll stop biting.

I think personally there are much better and worse people on all sides of politics than Johnson.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 13, 2022, 07:06:40 pm
You're wasting your time RD. He's beyond talking to. He's obsessed with the idea that, because Starmer once slipped up in an angry exchange in the House, said something wrong and corrected it shortly after, he's a liar just like Johnson is.

Actually,vi suspect he doesn't really believe that, but he needs to claim he does just so he can make his point in here. Either way, he's beyond reasoning with. One day I'll stop biting.

I think personally there are much better and worse people on all sides of politics than Johnson.

There Will be worse. On the scale overall I think there will be many more better. That's because Johnson has a long and well documented history of being economical with the truth, sadly.

Johnson does have many good traits, he's persuasive, his humour, I think he does have leadership qualities but he continually lets himself down. It's a great shame really.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 13, 2022, 07:08:10 pm
You're wasting your time RD. He's beyond talking to. He's obsessed with the idea that, because Starmer once slipped up in an angry exchange in the House, said something wrong and corrected it shortly after, he's a liar just like Johnson is.

Actually,vi suspect he doesn't really believe that, but he needs to claim he does just so he can make his point in here. Either way, he's beyond reasoning with. One day I'll stop biting.

https://novaramedia.com/2021/09/29/keir-starmer-is-just-as-dishonest-as-boris-johnson/
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 13, 2022, 07:08:56 pm
Saw this on Twitter and it sums up many a thread on this forum and this one in particular

Every single one of us is more lenient and willing to overlook foibles and transgressions of our own political 'side' than the other. Am surprised anyone thinks otherwise to be honest




Not true at all. There are several prominent Tory's on here who have no problem in criticising criminal actions by their own leader - and fair play to all of them.

The radio is full of people who say they have voted Tory all their life - and never will again - or at least as long as Johnson is leader.

Some of their more prominent critics of Starmer are Labour supporters. Just as those of Corbyn were too.

Johnson is a different kind of leader - a man with no principles, political or otherwise, who wants power purely for the sake of having power and will do whatever it takes to hang onto it. He attracts likeminded disciples. As you can see on this thread.

Hi wilts.
I am curious about who you see as prominent Tory’s on the forum.


I dont want to embarrass people by naming names hound but you know as well as me who has stated they are a Tory supporter and which of them has criticised Johnson. One of the most prominent Johnson critics has even said they are a party member - so proper kudos to them.

So it's people who have definately said they vote Tory. That's all I am saying.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 13, 2022, 07:13:58 pm
You're wasting your time RD. He's beyond talking to. He's obsessed with the idea that, because Starmer once slipped up in an angry exchange in the House, said something wrong and corrected it shortly after, he's a liar just like Johnson is.

Actually,vi suspect he doesn't really believe that, but he needs to claim he does just so he can make his point in here. Either way, he's beyond reasoning with. One day I'll stop biting.

https://novaramedia.com/2021/09/29/keir-starmer-is-just-as-dishonest-as-boris-johnson/

Thanks BB for providing evidence to what I said in my reply to Glosterred above - some of Starmer's most prominent critics are in the Labour Party. Or were until he threw them out/they resigned.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 13, 2022, 07:17:12 pm
You're wasting your time RD. He's beyond talking to. He's obsessed with the idea that, because Starmer once slipped up in an angry exchange in the House, said something wrong and corrected it shortly after, he's a liar just like Johnson is.

Actually,vi suspect he doesn't really believe that, but he needs to claim he does just so he can make his point in here. Either way, he's beyond reasoning with. One day I'll stop biting.

https://novaramedia.com/2021/09/29/keir-starmer-is-just-as-dishonest-as-boris-johnson/

You haven't actually read that have you? And I assume you've no idea how much of a vendetta Aaron Bastani has for Starmer, Bastani being Corbyn's young Twitter attack dog.

You are truly making yourself look stupid here BB by suggesting, as Bastani wants you to believe, that there's some kind of equality between lying on matters of objective truth, and changing policies in a way that certain groups of people don't like.

If you genuinely don't get how dangerous Johnson's abuse if objective truth is, and how unique it is in our politics, you really should be ashamed of yourself.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: idler on April 13, 2022, 07:21:32 pm
Well the Justice Minister has resigned.
That says a lot about what he thinks of Bojo.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 13, 2022, 07:25:55 pm
Well the Justice Minister has resigned.
That says a lot about what he thinks of Bojo.

Ooofff, he's the second justice minister to walk. That's a blow.

I wonder if things might start unraveling now.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: i_ateallthepies on April 13, 2022, 07:43:10 pm
Well the Justice Minister has resigned.
That says a lot about what he thinks of Bojo.

Ooofff, he's the second justice minister to walk. That's a blow.

I wonder if things might start unraveling now.

How many false dawns like this has there been?  It all just washes of Johnson because he doesn't have a principled bone in his body.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 13, 2022, 07:49:51 pm
Well the Justice Minister has resigned.
That says a lot about what he thinks of Bojo.

Ooofff, he's the second justice minister to walk. That's a blow.

I wonder if things might start unraveling now.

How many false dawns like this has there been?  It all just washes of Johnson because he doesn't have a principled bone in his body.

It's probably more about how the Conservative party reacts.

I mean so far he's had the full backing of people like Shapps, Fabricant, Currie. It's not exactly heavy weight support.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 13, 2022, 07:50:10 pm
You're wasting your time RD. He's beyond talking to. He's obsessed with the idea that, because Starmer once slipped up in an angry exchange in the House, said something wrong and corrected it shortly after, he's a liar just like Johnson is.

Actually,vi suspect he doesn't really believe that, but he needs to claim he does just so he can make his point in here. Either way, he's beyond reasoning with. One day I'll stop biting.

https://novaramedia.com/2021/09/29/keir-starmer-is-just-as-dishonest-as-boris-johnson/

You haven't actually read that have you? And I assume you've no idea how much of a vendetta Aaron Bastani has for Starmer, Bastani being Corbyn's young Twitter attack dog.

You are truly making yourself look stupid here BB by suggesting, as Bastani wants you to believe, that there's some kind of equality between lying on matters of objective truth, and changing policies in a way that certain groups of people don't like.

If you genuinely don't get how dangerous Johnson's abuse if objective truth is, and how unique it is in our politics, you really should be ashamed of yourself.

You talk about honesty when you want a Labour government to get into power by the only means it can with right-wing policies and then move to the left when it achieves it?

Honesty my arse.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 13, 2022, 07:59:09 pm
Amen Pies.

Here's the bit that really hurts though.

It's not about scoring points by bringing him down. It's not about scoring party political points. His entire modus operandi goes way beyond that.

This is about whether you can prosper in politics by outright, demonstrably lying.

If you can (and no UK PM ever has done before) then it's a paradigm shift. It means there's no longer any stick to stop any future politician simply denying truths that they don't want to face. And that is genuinely the end of functioning democracy.

In a democracy, thinks work because leaders can be held to account for what they do. If leaders realise that they can just deny they have done things while the entire country knows they have, and they are not properly held to account, the whole system collapses.

I'll tell you honestly as a member of the Labour party. I would rather the Tories had an honest and principled leader, swore never again to give power to a pathological liar and won the next election, than Labour win the next election by sinking to Johnson's level. Because it is WAY more important than temporary political advantage. 
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 13, 2022, 09:19:37 pm
The events that the Metropolitan police have yet to examine, which Johnson attended, include the May 2020 summer party, a November gathering in Johnson’s flat with his wife on the day of Dominic Cummings’ departure, and a leaving do for a senior aide in No 10 a day later. Sources said no attender had yet received a fine for those events.

Lord Frost, the former cabinet minister, also expressed concern that further damaging revelations were to come. “I think it’s not possible just to say, ‘That was then, this is now, let’s move on, the world is different,’ as the government is trying to this morning,” he told LBC. “We don’t yet know what other penalties may be issued, and to whom.”

No 10 sources said the prime minister had attended the birthday gathering in the cabinet room in June 2020 for less than 10 minutes, eating salad from a plastic bowl and declining any alcohol or party food.

But those who attended the birthday party for the prime minister say they have raised eyebrows at the description of the gathering, with one describing it as a “party atmosphere” with singing, attended by his wife, Carrie Johnson, and his interior designer Lulu Lytle.

Another said they believe photos taken of the event by Johnson’s personal photographer – which have been disclosed to the official Sue Gray investigation into lockdown parties – would leave it beyond doubt that it was an event that breached the rules.

One policing source said an assessment by Met detectives that the PM breached the rules more than once would increase future fines. The level of fine would go up each time Johnson was found to have, or accepted that he had, breached the rules he had introduced.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/13/boris-johnson-could-get-three-more-fines-over-partygate-say-insiders
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on April 13, 2022, 11:06:00 pm
To confirm  another point  discussed:

https://twitter.com/Greg_Callus/status/1513912694226788358?s=20&t=UI9EzE6MFvoCMfeF2-S0gw

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on April 13, 2022, 11:13:12 pm
I am considering the ' ignore' button Billy.... A sad thing to be doing but when reason, rationality and objectivity are so consistently  ignored  there doesn't seem much point in forever wasting even more time.

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 14, 2022, 12:00:17 am
To confirm  another point  discussed:

https://twitter.com/Greg_Callus/status/1513912694226788358?s=20&t=UI9EzE6MFvoCMfeF2-S0gw

BobG

If war was truly the issue, would you trust someone who doesn't even know when he is at a party to be able to make critical strategic decisions under pressure?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 14, 2022, 12:29:36 am
'who do you think you are' at some point in the future .............

 ................ and these are your great grandparents both lying f**kers ............. your great grandfather was particularly egregious ..............
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 14, 2022, 12:33:47 am
https://mobile.twitter.com/TelePolitics/status/1514333084015120398

Wonder how long he was at this one? Or whether he knew he was at a social event?

For the record, during the various lockdowns, 2 of my colleagues left our company and three ex-colleagues who I remained close friends with left their then places of work. There wasn't a social event for any one of them, because we and they stuck to the f**king rules for the greater good.

I had three new colleagues join us from abroad three days before the first lockdown. None of them set foot in our place of work or attended any social gatherings for over 4 months. Because we stuck to the f**king rules for the greater good.

Repeat that experience by the hundreds of thousands around the country, and that starts to scratch the surface of why the vast majority are incandescent about the behaviour of this set of entitled t**ts.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on April 14, 2022, 02:25:27 am
Incandescent is an understatement Billy.  Selfish, oafish, lying, corrupt and power crazed. I think incandescent can fairly be said to understate the case.

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on April 14, 2022, 04:08:29 am
Two bits of good news tonight:

The Moskva has been severely damaged. Differing accounts of why but the thing is reported to be badly damaged and abandoned,

and

Justice Minister Lord Wolfson has resigned from the Government over both the behaviour of the PM and the governments' official responses to Partygate over the last several months. That's code for resigning because the government has consistently lied to every single one of us - including BB.

At last, a member of the government one can respect.


BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 14, 2022, 07:40:53 am
You talk about honesty when you want a Labour government to get into power by the only means it can with right-wing policies and then move to the left when it achieves it?

Is that what you call honest?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 14, 2022, 08:32:40 am
Can I pass you a bib bb?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 14, 2022, 08:44:24 am
You talk about honesty when you want a Labour government to get into power by the only means it can with right-wing policies and then move to the left when it achieves it?

Is that what you call honest?
Thread alert.
This post has been flagged as politically biassed and lacking any supporting evidence. Read appropriately.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 14, 2022, 08:51:01 am
You are a fake BST.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 14, 2022, 09:16:05 am
If a political party publishes a manifesto and sticks to it, then the public knows roughly what it is getting when they vote.

The public generally knows the Labour Party pushes things to the left and the Conservative party pushes right.

It gets difficult when they start breaking manifesto pledges.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on April 14, 2022, 09:38:39 am
If a political party publishes a manifesto and sticks to it, then the public knows roughly what it is getting when they vote.

The public generally knows the Labour Party pushes things to the left and the Conservative party pushes right.

It gets difficult when they start breaking manifesto pledges.

Governments regularly back peddle on manifesto pledges don’t they.
Sometimes it is because circumstances change after the election which make the promises impossible to keep.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: tyke1962 on April 14, 2022, 09:45:34 am
To how many of the English electorate does any of this matter ?

It matters to me and the other contributors to this thread by obvious definition but I wonder how much it REALLY matters out there in the town's and city's .

You can't make people angry if they aren't interested in politics , disenfranchised or just as long as house prices are rising then carry on regardless .

The last great anger moment in my opinion was the 1990 Poll Tax riots in central London .

I'd bet a month's salary that if that was rolled out today you wouldn't see anything like that kind of opposition and anger and you'd be paying it .

That kind of anger and solidarity saw off a women who seemed almost impossible to remove for many of us and got rid of her blasted poll tax .

Put that day in all of its context in 1990 to a demo in central London on this coming Saturday with the intention for Johnson and Sunak to resign I can almost guarantee that they would resign early next week .

The reason they don't and won't is that not enough people get angry anymore and so they don't have to .

It's all well and good pointing at these charlatans but who in reality have allowed this to happen ?



Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 14, 2022, 09:47:37 am
If a political party publishes a manifesto with no intention of sticking to it then it is lying. Half the Labour party don't agree with Labour policy at any given time, and never will. Trying to appease both sides of the Labour party will inevitably involve lies.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 14, 2022, 09:52:43 am
That is a genuinely good point BB. The Labour Party has struggled to gain unanimity for years and years. It's probably a big reason why they are unable to win elections.

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: big fat yorkshire pudding on April 14, 2022, 12:26:50 pm
If labour win the next election there's an awful lot of labour supporters who will likely have to criticise them when they make the same changes or mistakes the conservatives have.  Neither side can ever possibly get it right every time.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on April 14, 2022, 12:40:00 pm
As always occurs Gloucester.

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 14, 2022, 06:23:14 pm
If labour win the next election there's an awful lot of labour supporters who will likely have to criticise them when they make the same changes or mistakes the conservatives have.  Neither side can ever possibly get it right every time.

I think you mean an awful lot of very vocal recent and never-before members might criticise them.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on April 14, 2022, 06:31:35 pm
If labour win the next election there's an awful lot of labour supporters who will likely have to criticise them when they make the same changes or mistakes the conservatives have.  Neither side can ever possibly get it right every time.

I think you mean an awful lot of very vocal recent and never-before members might criticise them.

You are very defensive there bst.
The people you mention might be recent new members, but they are never the less still members and have as much of a say (and vote) as you do.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 14, 2022, 07:07:27 pm
and back on topic .............

''Boris Johnson made a special request for Evgeny Lebedev and a Kremlin-linked Russian dignitary to bypass security checks when he met them as London mayor in 2015, the Guardian has learned.

Johnson’s friendship with Lebedev has come under scrutiny in recent weeks, including the prime minister’s decision to award the Russian-born media owner a peerage in spite of concerns raised by the intelligence and security services''

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/apr/14/boris-johnson-asked-for-evgeny-lebedev-to-skip-city-hall-security-in-2015
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: big fat yorkshire pudding on April 14, 2022, 08:15:51 pm
The Russian born British citizen?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 14, 2022, 08:28:58 pm
Russian born holder of joint Russian-British citizenship.

He qualifies for UK citizenship because he moved to the UK when his father's job as a KGB spy chief took him to the Russian Embassy in London. But he never renounced his Russian citizenship.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on April 14, 2022, 09:19:59 pm
The results of the upcoming local elections are the key to whether Johnson survives this or not.

He recognises this hence his Rwanda policy being announced now to appeal to Tory voters.

I therefore disagree with the notion that Johnson's conduct is a sign our democracy is broken. It's in the electorate's hands whether his actions are punished or not. Democracy in action.

However it could very reasonably argued that if the results of the local elections do not force the hands of Tory MPs to remove Johnson from power for his despicable behaviour then our society is broken.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 14, 2022, 09:43:51 pm
Branton

You seem to be saying that no political party will make a moral call on an issue like this. They will only ever judge what is in their interests.

I disagree. There are plenty of examples of political parties making principled moral calls that weren't obviously in their electoral interests. The biggest one in the past 60 years was from the Tory Party, when Edward Heath sacked Enoch Powell after his disgusting Rivers of Blood speech. (Michael Heseltine reckoned that if Powell had been leader of the Tories after that speech, he'd have won a landslide at the next election.)

The fact that THIS generation of Tory MPs have no moral compass and judge everything in the light of self-interest does not mean that that is the standard of all parties at all times.

I absolutely do agree with you though that the strength of a democracy depends on people's willingness to set aside tribal affiliation and be prepared to punish parties at the ballot box if they aren't willing to keep their own house in order.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on April 14, 2022, 09:59:28 pm
Billy

No I wasn't saying that at all. I'm disgusted that Tory MPs (bar a minority) haven't moved to remove Johnson already.

However they will surely move if the results of the local elections show him not to be the electoral superstar they believe he his (based on historic records) anymore. Of course this doesn't cast them in a very good light.

Those that DO want him out will be waiting on the election results giving their cause the extra momentum to succeed before making a move. I'd expect this minority to hand letters in post election regardless.

The Ukraine excuse is just being used as a cover by all Tory MPs whether Johnson supporters, detractors or waiverers.

I'll rephrase, as you imply, Johnson's future is in the hands of Tory voters in the local elections. I hope and expect many will simply abstain in disgust at his behaviour. This would then inevitably seal his downfall.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 14, 2022, 10:06:37 pm
Sorry if I misinterpreted BR. I agree 100% with that.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Branton Red on April 14, 2022, 10:19:32 pm
Sorry if I misinterpreted BR. I agree 100% with that.

Cheers Billy. I just hope, for the good of the country, my analysis is correct esp the last paragraph.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 14, 2022, 10:26:40 pm
I never understood the true power of TV until the other week.

I knew it was very powerful, otherwise advertisers wouldn't spend the millions they do on it.

The other week though, Sky news interviewed a couple of old ladies living in their basements in the Donbas. They had suffered weeks of artillery fire on their town, everything was destroyed.

And both of them believed Putins propaganda on RT implicitly. They were being saved, the Ukrainian government had sold the land to the Americans to do biological experiments. They believed every word of it despite being under constant attack.

Which makes me wonder how much our society is directed by a media most of which is owned by people with a rightwing agenda.

Anyway. Local elections.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: big fat yorkshire pudding on April 15, 2022, 08:06:11 am
Russian born holder of joint Russian-British citizenship.

He qualifies for UK citizenship because he moved to the UK when his father's job as a KGB spy chief took him to the Russian Embassy in London. But he never renounced his Russian citizenship.

And nor should he, it's perfectly acceptable to be Russian and British in my view.  I find this fear of him bizarre and just a convenient political story.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 15, 2022, 08:16:00 am
Billy

No I wasn't saying that at all. I'm disgusted that Tory MPs (bar a minority) haven't moved to remove Johnson already.

However they will surely move if the results of the local elections show him not to be the electoral superstar they believe he his (based on historic records) anymore. Of course this doesn't cast them in a very good light.

Those that DO want him out will be waiting on the election results giving their cause the extra momentum to succeed before making a move. I'd expect this minority to hand letters in post election regardless.

The Ukraine excuse is just being used as a cover by all Tory MPs whether Johnson supporters, detractors or waiverers.

I'll rephrase, as you imply, Johnson's future is in the hands of Tory voters in the local elections. I hope and expect many will simply abstain in disgust at his behaviour. This would then inevitably seal his downfall.

Johnson seems to have a base level of support of 30-35%% - which curiously enough is around the number who support the Rwanada idea.

The choice those Tory MP's need to make is - will ousting Johnson bring back the lost 15% from the last GE - or loose this 30% of Johnson 'cultists'. Big gamble.

I doubt he's going anywhere.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 15, 2022, 08:21:29 am
Russian born holder of joint Russian-British citizenship.

He qualifies for UK citizenship because he moved to the UK when his father's job as a KGB spy chief took him to the Russian Embassy in London. But he never renounced his Russian citizenship.

And nor should he, it's perfectly acceptable to be Russian and British in my view.  I find this fear of him bizarre and just a convenient political story.

There is absolutely 'no fear' pud. he has been extremely warmly welcomed into the inner sanctum of the British government and he has repaid this extraordinary hospitality in spades by backing the liar to the hilt. Russians collectively spread the love to the party by the bucket load and indeed their generosity has of course led to the unofficial title of londongrad for the capital. Fear, ha, pull the other one.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 15, 2022, 08:38:37 am
Russian born holder of joint Russian-British citizenship.

He qualifies for UK citizenship because he moved to the UK when his father's job as a KGB spy chief took him to the Russian Embassy in London. But he never renounced his Russian citizenship.

And nor should he, it's perfectly acceptable to be Russian and British in my view.  I find this fear of him bizarre and just a convenient political story.

When you become a life peer in the House of Lords you are asked to choose the name of a place that is signifant to you. Lebedez became Lord Siberia.

Even more interesting that you trot out the same excuse Johnson does - that asking questions about someone MI5 deemed a security risk is 'Russiaphobia'. What does it say in that Russia Report again:

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boris-johnsons-russian-crony-evgeny-lebedev-got-peerage-after-spies-dropped-warning-3dp6sw29x

There are plenty of Russian critics of Putin playing a valuable role in British society. He isn't one of them - when have you ever seen him on tv?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Colemans Left Hook on April 15, 2022, 10:54:25 am
By definition the Leader of The Opposition has at all times to robotically call on The Prime Minister to resign whilst the Opposition members must make "funny noises"

Starmer has performed that duty but does he really think it is a good idea at this moment in time

But you have to ask yourself now, when we have world war 2.5 (which could tend to world war 3) is it in the interest of the alleged "freeworld" to replace him and the country to be effectively leaderless for over a month. 

One unlikely solution is for our "Teflon PM" to say i will stand down in say one year from now. But it won't happen

The Falklands War saved Thatchers political career and it looks like it's deja vu time  --  we have one very lucky boy ( who still behaves like a juvenile) 
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 15, 2022, 12:26:40 pm
Coleman.

1) Starmer has been very restrained in absolutely NOT robotically calling for Johnson to resign despite his many f**k ups in his 3 years as PM. He didn't raise the issue of resignation until it was unarguable that Johnson had lied to the House.


2) Google "Norway Debate"
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on April 15, 2022, 12:45:41 pm
By definition the Leader of The Opposition has at all times to robotically call on The Prime Minister to resign whilst the Opposition members must make "funny noises"

Starmer has performed that duty but does he really think it is a good idea at this moment in time

But you have to ask yourself now, when we have world war 2.5 (which could tend to world war 3) is it in the interest of the alleged "freeworld" to replace him and the country to be effectively leaderless for over a month. 

One unlikely solution is for our "Teflon PM" to say i will stand down in say one year from now. But it won't happen

The Falklands War saved Thatchers political career and it looks like it's deja vu time  --  we have one very lucky boy ( who still behaves like a juvenile) 
Tell me CLH what he has done that the Deputy PM couldn't do even though it is Raabid? We are not involved in any actual conflict we are supying weaponry. Is The Clown such a big player on the world stage that he couldn't be easily replaced?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 19, 2022, 01:19:37 pm
''MPs will probably get a vote on Thursday on holding an inquiry into whether Boris Johnson lied to MPs about Partygate, the Mirror’s Pippa Crerar reports''

And then a vote to decide if the pope is a catholic ................
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 19, 2022, 05:23:35 pm
Just watching Starmer giving the speech of his life in the Commons absolutely flaying Johnson's  lies.

He contrasts Johnson's behaviour against that of a constituent of that t**t Michael Fabricant (the one who said he knew about teachers and nurses having drinks in their staff rooms). The constituent met with Starmer to tell him how he followed the rules and couldn't be with his wife as she was dying.

The camera panned to Fabricant. He was f**king grinning, before he realised and wiped it off his face.

Don't anyone ever tell me that Kitsons like that actually care about ordinary folk.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 19, 2022, 05:54:39 pm
''MPs will probably get a vote on Thursday on holding an inquiry into whether Boris Johnson lied to MPs about Partygate, the Mirror’s Pippa Crerar reports''

And then a vote to decide if the pope is a catholic ................

And I bet Boris will be nowhere to be seen. He won't even confirm that it'll be a Free Vote.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 19, 2022, 06:24:27 pm
Just watching Starmer giving the speech of his life in the Commons absolutely flaying Johnson's  lies.

He contrasts Johnson's behaviour against that of a constituent of that t**t Michael Fabricant (the one who said he knew about teachers and nurses having drinks in their staff rooms). The constituent met with Starmer to tell him how he followed the rules and couldn't be with his wife as she was dying.

The camera panned to Fabricant. He was f**king grinning, before he realised and wiped it off his face.

Don't anyone ever tell me that Kitsons like that actually care about ordinary folk.

Fabricant spoke (sic) in the debate today.

He was f**king well pissed up. He's usually a very clear and eloquent speaker. But he was slurring his words like he'd had a stroke.

Go watch it on BBC Parliament. He spoke at 17:47.
On this day. In this debate.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 19, 2022, 06:41:23 pm
I saw it. Fabricant did appear to be drunk today.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 19, 2022, 06:44:33 pm
Generally though, I thought despite all that was said, it was water off a ducks back. Whilst he has the support of the party, nothing can be done.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 19, 2022, 07:48:43 pm
From the BBC.

"The PM repeated his apology that he made on camera last week for attending a birthday party thrown for him in the Cabinet Room in June 2020 during the first lockdown
But he said the hurt and upset caused by the rule breaking made him more determined to lead on the British people's priorities, including on Ukraine and the cost of living crisis."

Somebody help me out here because I'm struggling to follow the logic.

Is he saying that because he hurt and upset people, he's not going to resign?

Or is he saying that he needs to hurt and upset people in order to spur him on to do his f**king job?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on April 19, 2022, 07:53:02 pm
I think he is trying to say he has let people down. And wants to try to make amends.

And no. This is not me coming out in support of him.
Just saying.
Honi soi qui mal y Pense.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 19, 2022, 08:11:58 pm
Right.

So he's saying that he's spectacularly untrustworthy and that means we should trust him with some potentially existential decisions?

Hadn't thought about it that way.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on April 19, 2022, 09:25:02 pm
I see he is now claiming his surprise birthday party came just before a vital Covid meeting ............ really!!!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: rich1471 on April 19, 2022, 09:29:54 pm
The man would struggle to tell the truth even it was wrote on his notes Infront of him
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 19, 2022, 09:49:14 pm
You can fully understand why this Govt wants to sell off Channel 4.

When you rule by lie and by whitewash, last thing you want is journalists as prescient as this on your back.

https://mobile.twitter.com/krishgm/status/1485924089684504582

Just look at the date oh that Tweet.  And if you buy the bullshit from the Tory party, just reflect on your own standards.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 19, 2022, 10:23:18 pm
If there is a vote, are we going to see tory MPs lie themselves and say they are giving him the benefit? of course we are.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Donnywolf on April 20, 2022, 05:39:09 am
.... just imagine what this or any other Govt might achieve IF they didnt spend a massive amount of time defending justifying nullifying and reacting (and loads of other 'ings] to crises that they have overseen and have mainly been avoidable

Cummings to name one. He put Barnard Castle on the map and then they spent lets say "lots of time" doing the above when they could have done lots more useful things with their time

I feel this Rwanda thing is the same { a distraction ] on which thousands of Parliament hours will be spent before it is allowed to fizzle out at a huge cost to Taxpayers in monetary terms and Govt in time

... im sure legislations , committees of Fishing Clubs & Sports & Social Clubs through to Village and Town Councils do exactly the same and Govts of every colour in lots of Countries
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 20, 2022, 08:22:01 am
.... just imagine what this or any other Govt might achieve IF they didnt spend a massive amount of time defending justifying nullifying and reacting (and loads of other 'ings] to crises that they have overseen and have mainly been avoidable

Cummings to name one. He put Barnard Castle on the map and then they spent lets say "lots of time" doing the above when they could have done lots more useful things with their time

I feel this Rwanda thing is the same { a distraction ] on which thousands of Parliament hours will be spent before it is allowed to fizzle out at a huge cost to Taxpayers in monetary terms and Govt in time

... im sure legislations , committees of Fishing Clubs & Sports & Social Clubs through to Village and Town Councils do exactly the same and Govts of every colour in lots of Countries

Fishing and social clubs don't normally lie to each other, encourage others to lie and poison the water for everyone else though wolfie.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 21, 2022, 12:04:00 am
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61170379

Johnson doing what Johnson does.

Kicking the can down the road and hoping something crops up to save his sorry hide.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 21, 2022, 03:50:06 am
You'd think an innocent man would welcome the opportunity to clear his name
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Donnywolf on April 21, 2022, 07:52:28 am
.... just imagine what this or any other Govt might achieve IF they didnt spend a massive amount of time defending justifying nullifying and reacting (and loads of other 'ings] to crises that they have overseen and have mainly been avoidable

Cummings to name one. He put Barnard Castle on the map and then they spent lets say "lots of time" doing the above when they could have done lots more useful things with their time

I feel this Rwanda thing is the same { a distraction ] on which thousands of Parliament hours will be spent before it is allowed to fizzle out at a huge cost to Taxpayers in monetary terms and Govt in time

... im sure legislations , committees of Fishing Clubs & Sports & Social Clubs through to Village and Town Councils do exactly the same and Govts of every colour in lots of Countries

Fishing and social clubs don't normally lie to each other, encourage others to lie and poison the water for everyone else though wolfie.

Oh I know but it was an example of how Bodies probably waste time with side issues of their making and the time they then waste tidying it up.

Johnson now using more time working out how to delay the vote on the enquiry into him misleading HOC

FFS ... he will win any vote with 79 ish majority. 40 of his  MPs are not going to rebel .... But now they want to stop those Tory MPs looking as though they are not taking Partygate or Johnson's lies seriously by voting to support him

So they seek to delay it so it looks like MPs are "awaiting Sue Gray and Met Report"  and theoretically are not condoning Johnson's Law breaking

Meantime there's a whole Country to run and my point is they could be running it IF they stopped wasting time fixing their self inflicted messes
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 21, 2022, 08:12:25 am
Boris Johnson has plenty to talk about other than Partygate whereas Keir Starmer has nothing to offer regarding other subjects. 

Boris Johnson is saved by the piss poor, embarrassing opposition.

If Keir Starmer was Donny Rovers owner he'd be constantly talking about how shit Rotherham United are.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 21, 2022, 09:06:51 am
You'd think blind, dyed in the wool tory voters would have plenty to say about their beloved leader instead trying to deflect away to Starmer who is a better man all round with a honours relating to his previous career, whereas johnson is still under investigation regarding his former job and will most likely be under investigation regarding this one too.

Martin Kettle gives a good breakdown of the current situation

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/20/boris-johnson-vote-partygate-cost-of-living-crisis-prime-minister

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 21, 2022, 10:09:10 am
Boris Johnson has plenty to talk about other than Partygate whereas Keir Starmer has nothing to offer regarding other subjects. 

Boris Johnson is saved by the piss poor, embarrassing opposition.

If Keir Starmer was Donny Rovers owner he'd be constantly talking about how shit Rotherham United are.

And in rolls the most partisan poster in this forum, trotting out unfiltered precisely the line that our criminal PM used yesterday.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 21, 2022, 10:34:49 am
If the leader of the country is proven to be dishonest, there really is nothing else to talk about. How can we move forward with anything, if we can't trust the man at the top?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 21, 2022, 10:39:36 am
If the leader of the country is proven to be dishonest, there really is nothing else to talk about. How can we move forward with anything, if we can't trust the man at the top?

This. Sums it up perfectly.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 21, 2022, 10:44:03 am
Boris Johnson has plenty to talk about other than Partygate whereas Keir Starmer has nothing to offer regarding other subjects. 

Boris Johnson is saved by the piss poor, embarrassing opposition.

If Keir Starmer was Donny Rovers owner he'd be constantly talking about how shit Rotherham United are.

And in rolls the most partisan poster in this forum, trotting out unfiltered precisely the line that our criminal PM used yesterday.
.....Come to think of it, Labour's most partisan fans on this forum are no different to their leader.

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 21, 2022, 10:45:17 am
If the leader of the country is proven to be dishonest, there really is nothing else to talk about. How can we move forward with anything, if we can't trust the man at the top?

And what about the dishonesty of the man at the top of the Labour party?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 21, 2022, 10:46:34 am
It's going to be a long off-season I fear
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 21, 2022, 10:47:55 am
If the leader of the country is proven to be dishonest, there really is nothing else to talk about. How can we move forward with anything, if we can't trust the man at the top?

And what about the dishonesty of the man at the top of the Labour party?

Whataboutery, it's beside the point.

Not that it matters but he hasn't been proven to be dishonest or committed a criminal offence.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 21, 2022, 10:49:31 am
Really?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 21, 2022, 10:53:02 am
Duh Duh Deeerrrrr...

Novaramedia.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 21, 2022, 10:55:53 am
Rovers Scored 3 goals against Shrewsbury last Monday, so the fact that Shrewsbury scored 3 goals against Rovers is whataboutery?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on April 21, 2022, 10:58:52 am
???

Anyway, I voted Lib Dems last time out.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 21, 2022, 11:00:50 am
Meanwhile, the issue of Russian funding to the Tories is back.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-61080537

TL:DR.

A Russian woman who is now a UK citizen has donated £2m to the Tories. She claims to have no contact with the Kremlin. Her husband is an ex-Putin minister who apparently was sacked in 2004. They "fled" to the UK. With a quarter of a billion dollars in the bank. As refugees fleeing tyranny tend to do...

So these poor folk fleeing Putin and having nothing to do with him. And pouring money into the Tories' pockets. End of story.

Except... The BBC has been digging. And it turns out the woman has been a director of an offshore company alongside a close Putin aid who has been sanctioned by the US. And this same Putin aide paid her husband $8m in 2016. Just before the woman's donations to the Tory party went through the roof.

Oh by the way. She now chairs a group of high value donors with privileged access to senior ministers to discuss policy.

Hiding in plain sight.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 21, 2022, 12:05:46 pm
The pile of evidence grows steadily that the russians under putin have bought their way into UK politics and funded the man and party they wanted in government.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 21, 2022, 01:04:07 pm
A Tory MP launched a blistering attack on Boris Johnson today during a debate on the partygate scandal.

William Wragg, who has previously called for Johnson to quit, said Tory MPs had been working in a “toxic atmosphere”.

He told the Commons: “It is utterly depressing to be asked to defend the indefensible. Each time, part of us withers.”

Wragg, the Tory chairman of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee, added: “I cannot reconcile myself to the prime minister’s continued leadership of our country and the Conservative Party”.

The MP for Hazel Grove added: “The parliamentary party bears the scars of misjudgments of leadership.

“There can be few colleagues on this side of the house I would contend who are truly enjoying being members of parliament at the moment.”

https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/tory-mp-william-wragg-boris-johnson-to-go-and-says-toxic-atmosphere_uk_626134e9e4b0e900dcd2696d

Still, there will be people on this board who will never criticise him - but attack those who do
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: big fat yorkshire pudding on April 21, 2022, 01:27:24 pm
If I was Labour I'd be wanting to find a way to drag it out and keep the PM from leaving.  2 years is a long time and 2 years for a successor to rid the Covid parties puts the focus elsewhere and that's less comfortable for Labour.  There best shot of getting power is keeping the opposition down.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 21, 2022, 01:31:57 pm
If I was Labour I'd be wanting to find a way to drag it out and keep the PM from leaving.  2 years is a long time and 2 years for a successor to rid the Covid parties puts the focus elsewhere and that's less comfortable for Labour.  There best shot of getting power is keeping the opposition down.

Any inquiry will not begin till the police investigation is finished and they are still ploughing their way through around 9 more non-parties. The country will be better served with a new leader.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 21, 2022, 02:19:52 pm
If the leader of the country is proven to be dishonest, there really is nothing else to talk about. How can we move forward with anything, if we can't trust the man at the top?

And what about the dishonesty of the man at the top of the Labour party?

The perfect reason for a lying, dishonest, dishonourable lack of integrity to carry on running the country. Into the ground. :silly:
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on April 21, 2022, 02:49:17 pm
All at the expense of a Labour party leader who ignores the democracy of the British people including members of his own party.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 21, 2022, 03:06:59 pm
All at the expense of a Labour party leader who ignores the democracy of the British people including members of his own party.

:silly::silly::silly::silly::silly::silly::silly::silly::silly::silly::silly::silly::silly::silly:
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 21, 2022, 03:53:59 pm
It’s actually quite a high bar that the committee of privileges will have to consider. I mean I think it is ... not debated that the house was misled. I think even the prime minister effectively admits that the house was misled.

It was said that rules weren’t broken, and it is self-evident that rules were broken. So the house was misled. It got a false impression. The question is whether that was intentional.

Chris Bryant MP in the debate
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on April 21, 2022, 05:17:18 pm
Nodded through without a vote, thats convenient for the arse lickers, they don’t have to put their name to it
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: albie on April 21, 2022, 05:32:45 pm
Dickless Met to hold on whether any more fines issued until after local elections;
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/boris-johnson-partygate-met-police-investigation-lockdown-fines-covid-labour-motion-b995552.html

So political considerations come into the mix when investigating potential criminal wrongdoing?
Why it is necessary to pause the publication of information from an ongoing inquiry in the public interest?

New one that!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on April 21, 2022, 05:39:39 pm
The pile of evidence grows steadily that the russians under putin have bought their way into UK politics and funded the man and party they wanted in government.

The same man they have just banned from entering their country? For being hostile? And liz truss, and Ben Wallace?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: albie on April 21, 2022, 05:45:48 pm
The pile of evidence grows steadily that the russians under putin have bought their way into UK politics and funded the man and party they wanted in government.

The same man they have just banned from entering their country? For being hostile? And liz truss, and Ben Wallace?

Yes, the very same!
It suits both parties to play the blame game with the other at the moment, but has nothing to say to longer term strategic considerations.

All part of the posturing, scrambling for a position that will be forgotten in short order.
The financial inputs into the Vote Leave and the Tory coffers has been linked on here many times.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 21, 2022, 05:54:38 pm
It’s actually quite a high bar that the committee of privileges will have to consider. I mean I think it is ... not debated that the house was misled. I think even the prime minister effectively admits that the house was misled.

It was said that rules weren’t broken, and it is self-evident that rules were broken. So the house was misled. It got a false impression. The question is whether that was intentional.

Chris Bryant MP in the debate

Johnson's line now is: I accept I broke my own law but I didn't think I was breaking it when I broke it, so I didn't intentionally mislead the House.

Which of course means he is admitting he was too f**king thick to undert his own law. But we should still keep him as Leader in the most dangerous international conflict in half a century.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 21, 2022, 06:34:46 pm
It’s actually quite a high bar that the committee of privileges will have to consider. I mean I think it is ... not debated that the house was misled. I think even the prime minister effectively admits that the house was misled.

It was said that rules weren’t broken, and it is self-evident that rules were broken. So the house was misled. It got a false impression. The question is whether that was intentional.

Chris Bryant MP in the debate

Johnson's line now is: I accept I broke my own law but I didn't think I was breaking it when I broke it, so I didn't intentionally mislead the House.

Which of course means he is admitting he was too f**king thick to undert his own law. But we should still keep him as Leader in the most dangerous international conflict in half a century.

And if you unintentionally DO mislead the Houe, you are supposed to stand up in the House and cotrect the record as soon as you are aware of the true facts.

AFAIK Boris has now been made aware of the true facts for quite a while. I might have missed it, but has he corrected the record yet?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on April 21, 2022, 07:51:14 pm
You'd think blind, dyed in the wool tory voters would have plenty to say about their beloved leader instead trying to deflect away to Starmer who is a better man all round with a honours relating to his previous career, whereas johnson is still under investigation regarding his former job and will most likely be under investigation regarding this one too.

Martin Kettle gives a good breakdown of the current situation

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/apr/20/boris-johnson-vote-partygate-cost-of-living-crisis-prime-minister

Well he is hardly likely to give the PM a glowing report is he.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 21, 2022, 09:31:33 pm
Looks like Johnson has dodged a bullet this afternoon. There was a string of previously loyal Tory MPs on R4 earlier saying they would have voted for the Labour motion today. So it was going to pass anyway. This way, at least he's avoided the humiliation of a mass rebellion.

But there was also lots of talk of the mood turning in the Tory party. Talk about being ready to ditch him if more evidence comes to light.

He's dragging it out. Of course he will because he hasn't got the moral courage to resign. But after hearing that today, I really think the net is closing this time.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on April 21, 2022, 09:33:59 pm
God I hope so
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 21, 2022, 09:41:44 pm
So the Met will not be issuing anymore Partygate fines until after the local Elections. Because to do so might affect people's voting.

Is that how democracy works then? You vote in ignorance of the facts that someone on high decides you shouldn't have?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 21, 2022, 10:05:17 pm
It was facinating to see arch-Brexiter Steve Baker speak so strongly and say Johnson should go today. I wonder what might have caused Baker to turn against him:

https://twitter.com/BNHWalker/status/1516458485407432717
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: albie on April 21, 2022, 10:58:21 pm
So the Met will not be issuing anymore Partygate fines until after the local Elections. Because to do so might affect people's voting.

Is that how democracy works then? You vote in ignorance of the facts that someone on high decides you shouldn't have?

BST,

I am not sure that this is correct.
The Met are not giving out any details on fines issued, but it seems the whole process has not been suspended.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/apr/21/met-police-delay-updates-on-partygate-fines-until-after-may-local-elections

I have no idea what "the restrictions" the Met refer to actually are.

The idea that investigation and progress reports on criminal acts should be shelved because of local council elections is completely bizarre.

Does anyone know of any precedent for this type of action taken previously by the police?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 21, 2022, 11:31:40 pm
without fear or favour?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 22, 2022, 04:28:23 am
       


                                           Let's get johnson done!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on April 22, 2022, 02:40:29 pm

So the Met will not be issuing anymore Partygate fines until after the local Elections. Because to do so might affect people's voting.

Is that how democracy works then? You vote in ignorance of the facts that someone on high decides you shouldn't have?

BST,

I am not sure that this is correct.
The Met are not giving out any details on fines issued, but it seems the whole process has not been suspended.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2022/apr/21/met-police-delay-updates-on-partygate-fines-until-after-may-local-elections

I have no idea what "the restrictions" the Met refer to actually are.

The idea that investigation and progress reports on criminal acts should be shelved because of local council elections is completely bizarre.

Does anyone know of any precedent for this type of action taken previously by the police?

Don’t quote me here, but I suspect the restrictions may be down to the old thing called Purdah. I think it’s now called the “period of heightened sensitivity”. Or similar.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 22, 2022, 02:51:58 pm
NR.

I get the purdah aspect. Although I'd argue that NOT letting the public know that the PM is a serial criminal offender and liar is at least as much likely to affect voting choices as letting them know. In other words, in this context, choosing to suspend the application of fines is not a passive decision, but a very, very active one.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: albie on April 22, 2022, 03:40:13 pm
NR,

I looked at the rules on "purdah" as was, and could not see any specific reference to the police responsibilities:
https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN05262/SN05262.pdf

It looks to me like the rules focus upon local authorities and the PCC function, not on operational matters for the police.

Still not clear what the Met are saying here, so if others know please speak up.
I agree with BST that any action (or no action) impacts the local elections to some degree.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on April 22, 2022, 04:50:14 pm
Did someone say purdah?

'Sources say' fines for the party in the Downing Street Garden being given out today.

https://twitter.com/AnushkaAsthana/status/1517519419987136512
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on April 22, 2022, 04:59:16 pm
I think the general populous are in no doubt about Partygate.
One fine or a hundred?
Does it make any difference?
One pint of petrol on the fire, or a gallon?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 22, 2022, 07:26:28 pm
I think the general populous are in no doubt about Partygate.
One fine or a hundred?
Does it make any difference?
One pint of petrol on the fire, or a gallon?

It does make a difference: the more fines Johnson gets, the more of a liar to Parliament it shows him to be.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: albie on April 22, 2022, 10:13:43 pm
As fines are now going out for the BYOB party he hosted, difficult to see how Bozo is not going to pick one up:
https://news.stv.tv/politics/prime-minister-boris-johnson-not-yet-fined-over-downing-street-byob-garden-party

Death by a thousand cuts this, as he is not man enough to step down!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 22, 2022, 10:51:58 pm
I think the general populous are in no doubt about Partygate.
One fine or a hundred?
Does it make any difference?
One pint of petrol on the fire, or a gallon?

would this be your view on all offences NR?

There is a argument for him to be charged with more serious offences surely, and under normal circumstance unless a person asks for other offences to be taken into consideration then a greater sentence or fine can be given.

Imagine the police dealing with 12 instances of breaking the same law in a single household for an ordinary citizen?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on April 22, 2022, 11:27:50 pm
I think the general populous are in no doubt about Partygate.
One fine or a hundred?
Does it make any difference?
One pint of petrol on the fire, or a gallon?

would this be your view on all offences NR?

There is a argument for him to be charged with more serious offences surely, and under normal circumstance unless a person asks for other offences to be taken into consideration then a greater sentence or fine can be given.

Imagine the police dealing with 12 instances of breaking the same law in a single household for an ordinary citizen?

It happens all the time.
Take burglary for instance.
I know many cases where a burglar has admitted say 20 different crimes.
He is charged with one and the other 19 are TIC, or taken into account.
And it’s made little or no difference to sentencing.

On the ladder of criminality, breach of covid regs is at the bottom. Partygate aggravates them because of the political aspect of course. Interestingly, there has been no mention of admissions in all of this. Johnson has accepted the fine, which implies an admission of guilt. Now had he come out from the off and owned them all, then tic might have come into play. But these are summary only offences we are talking about. Like littering.

A liar is a liar though. Once or a hundred times. No question.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: albie on April 22, 2022, 11:36:32 pm
Basically, Johnson has 2 weeks left.

Once the local elections are done on May 5, the letters of no confidence will go in to Brady and the 1922 Committee, and Bozo will be made to walk the plank.

He can save some local council seats by standing down early, but his narcissism will get in the way.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 22, 2022, 11:38:47 pm
NR, you have to admit your crimes to have them taken into consideration and he could quite easily have been charged for running a disorderly house or worse.

This will be the third time he has been sacked for lying.

Twice before people voted for him as PM. you get the politicians you deserve.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 22, 2022, 11:43:07 pm
Albie, I think right at the death he will walk rather than have the ignominy of of a stain, then of course he will spend the rest of his life denying he was pushed.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 23, 2022, 12:24:29 am
The point is NR, Johnson's defence against the birthday cake fine is that he was only there for 9 mins and the "party" only included workmates he was already working with. Of course that implies that his missus's home designer was a key work colleague because she was there as well. But no matter. We've seen from responses in here that some people have so little ability to see through bullshit like this that they are prepared to swallow that line.

It is a different matter altogether if the Met concludes that he was complicit in the BYOB knees up. I struggle to see how even Johnson could concoct an excuse to that one that anyone could honestly buy into.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 23, 2022, 12:44:00 am
Daniel Hannan this week
https://mobile.twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/1517086649741684738

Daniel Hannan three years back.
https://mobile.twitter.com/LiveFromBrexit/status/1517089610316324864

One thing that's consistent about the Brexit coup leaders. They restart history and their basic beliefs every time it suits them to do so.

Still. All the same, aren't they?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 23, 2022, 01:38:55 am
A spokes for the party said:

'we will overlook all the lying, law breaking, cronyism and incompetence if we do well in the local elections'
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on April 23, 2022, 08:12:01 am
Another report into Russian influence in the UK goes missing and the government saying to Putin yep we saw what you did in the Crimea and then in Salisbury but what the hell ................

Sun 9 Sep 2018

''The right of more than 700 wealthy Russians to live in the UK is under review as the government mulls new ways of curtailing the power and influence of the Kremlin following the Salisbury poisonings.''

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/sep/09/home-office-review-wealthy-russian-investor-visas

Fri 22 Apr 2022

''Seven Russians now under sanctions were awarded controversial “golden visas” by the UK after Vladimir Putin’s regime first invaded Ukraine in 2014, the government has admitted.''

''The government revealed that 10 Russians who received golden visas are now subject to sanctions, an increase from the eight previously admitted, in a written answer to a question from Stephen Kinnock, Labour’s shadow immigration minister.''


''Spotlight on Corruption said the latest revelation made it even more urgent that the government release a 2018 report on the golden visa scheme. A minister last month committed to publish it, but the government has not yet done so.''

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/apr/22/russians-sanctioned-uk-given-golden-visas-ukraine-invasion


Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on April 23, 2022, 09:57:56 am
The point is NR, Johnson's defence against the birthday cake fine is that he was only there for 9 mins and the "party" only included workmates he was already working with. Of course that implies that his missus's home designer was a key work colleague because she was there as well. But no matter. We've seen from responses in here that some people have so little ability to see through bullshit like this that they are prepared to swallow that line.

It is a different matter altogether if the Met concludes that he was complicit in the BYOB knees up. I struggle to see how even Johnson could concoct an excuse to that one that anyone could honestly buy into.
You mention the interior designer, but what about Carrie Antoinette, is she authorised to wander round the offices in No10 during the working day?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Filo on April 23, 2022, 10:36:23 am
The point is NR, Johnson's defence against the birthday cake fine is that he was only there for 9 mins and the "party" only included workmates he was already working with. Of course that implies that his missus's home designer was a key work colleague because she was there as well. But no matter. We've seen from responses in here that some people have so little ability to see through bullshit like this that they are prepared to swallow that line.

It is a different matter altogether if the Met concludes that he was complicit in the BYOB knees up. I struggle to see how even Johnson could concoct an excuse to that one that anyone could honestly buy into.
You mention the interior designer, but what about Carrie Antoinette, is she authorised to wander round the offices in No10 during the working day?

No she lives in the flat at No. 11
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on April 23, 2022, 01:06:31 pm
My point exactly Filo
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: mugnapper on April 24, 2022, 12:53:48 pm
Tory party whips telling Backbenchers not to be 'spooked' if Johnson gets a £10k fine for the party held after Cummings resigned.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 24, 2022, 01:32:45 pm
Tory party whips telling Backbenchers not to be 'spooked' if Johnson gets a £10k fine for the party held after Cummings resigned.

Weren't the £10K fines for people who organised illegal gatherings..?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: albie on April 24, 2022, 01:40:48 pm
Yes Glyn, I think that is right!

Meanwhile, Sky are reporting further trouble for the political elites:
https://news.sky.com/story/three-conservative-cabinet-ministers-referred-to-watchdog-over-sexual-misconduct-allegations-report-12597632

What a crew!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: mugnapper on April 24, 2022, 03:36:43 pm
https://news.sky.com/story/angela-rayner-condemns-sexist-and-misogynistic-mail-on-sunday-article-claiming-tory-mps-accuse-her-of-basic-instinct-ploy-to-distract-pm-12597729

How desperate are the Tories to deflect/distract ??
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on April 24, 2022, 04:00:21 pm
Disgusting isn't it? But it'll play with some people.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 24, 2022, 05:45:04 pm
It says more about what some people think about Boris though.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: danumdon on April 24, 2022, 07:31:08 pm
https://news.sky.com/story/angela-rayner-condemns-sexist-and-misogynistic-mail-on-sunday-article-claiming-tory-mps-accuse-her-of-basic-instinct-ploy-to-distract-pm-12597729

How desperate are the Tories to deflect/distract ??

I must admit i'd be distracted if i had to eye skanky ginger beaver across the dispatch box.

Sounds like a pitiful effort by some Johnson supporters but intriguing at the same time as it gives you a window into how these morons think.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on April 25, 2022, 08:15:08 am
Rachel Reeves on tv this morning saying that sexism is rife in Parliament.
She didn’t say it was just from one side so by definition it appears to be a generalisation.
Not just the Tory MPs then.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: i_ateallthepies on April 25, 2022, 08:55:09 am
Has anybody said it's just the Tory MPs?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on April 25, 2022, 09:29:15 am
Has anybody said it's just the Tory MPs?

Well, possibly Angela Raynor.



"But it is the PM who is dragging the Conservative Party into the sewer - and the anonymous Tory MPs doing his bidding are complicit. He and his cheerleaders clearly have a big problem with women in public life. They should be ashamed of themselves.”
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 25, 2022, 09:53:12 am
Rachel Reeves on tv this morning saying that sexism is rife in Parliament.
She didn’t say it was just from one side so by definition it appears to be a generalisation.
Not just the Tory MPs then.

She was saying the recipients of sexism are from all sides of the House, not that the perpetrators are.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 25, 2022, 09:56:14 am
Has anybody said it's just the Tory MPs?

Well, possibly Angela Raynor.



"But it is the PM who is dragging the Conservative Party into the sewer - and the anonymous Tory MPs doing his bidding are complicit. He and his cheerleaders clearly have a big problem with women in public life. They should be ashamed of themselves.”

It was the MOS who said they were Tory MPs they were reporting on, not Angela Raynor.

That's if you believe there were any 'anonymous' Tory MPs involved in the first place, of course, and not just the MOS making up them up to create a story.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on April 25, 2022, 01:07:29 pm
Has anybody said it's just the Tory MPs?

Well, possibly Angela Raynor.



"But it is the PM who is dragging the Conservative Party into the sewer - and the anonymous Tory MPs doing his bidding are complicit. He and his cheerleaders clearly have a big problem with women in public life. They should be ashamed of themselves.”

It was the MOS who said they were Tory MPs they were reporting on, not Angela Raynor.

That's if you believe there were any 'anonymous' Tory MPs involved in the first place, of course, and not just the MOS making up them up to create a story.

The words I quoted were from Raynor.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 25, 2022, 04:33:17 pm
Has anybody said it's just the Tory MPs?

Well, possibly Angela Raynor.



"But it is the PM who is dragging the Conservative Party into the sewer - and the anonymous Tory MPs doing his bidding are complicit. He and his cheerleaders clearly have a big problem with women in public life. They should be ashamed of themselves.”

It was the MOS who said they were Tory MPs they were reporting on, not Angela Raynor.

That's if you believe there were any 'anonymous' Tory MPs involved in the first place, of course, and not just the MOS making up them up to create a story.

The words I quoted were from Raynor.


And she's quoting what the MOS said: 'anonymous Tory MPs'.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on April 25, 2022, 08:52:30 pm
As May was completely ineffectual for three whole years, it begs the question of what Jeremy Corbyn was doing to distract her all that time! :silly:
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 12, 2022, 11:53:17 am
''More than 100 fines have now been issued over partygate, say Met police – UK politics live''
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 12, 2022, 01:19:35 pm
Cummings still beavering away at his life's work ...............

Twitter:

''Junior staff told, PM's PPS is coordinating with covid taskforce to ensure all no10 events are lawful. Junior staff had reasonable expectation this happening. So how do you fine junior staff for 14/1/21 & NOT the PM *who attended* & was responsible for entire shitshow?!
8:27 PM · May 12, 2022''

''Also Tory MPs havent twigged: PM throwing all these junior staff under bus to cops makes his life nightmarish in covid inquiry. Am getting lots of texts today like 'I can't WAIT for the inquiry, I took lots of notes'. #DeepState will wreak revenge on
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: danumdon on May 12, 2022, 02:49:44 pm
Rachel Reeves on tv this morning saying that sexism is rife in Parliament.
She didn’t say it was just from one side so by definition it appears to be a generalisation.
Not just the Tory MPs then.

I'm not sure how she would know this, because it would have to be a very dark night for someone to "bump"into her.

Just not sure about her, sitting there in the commons with her grans old undies on her face, she just has something about he i can't quite put my finger on it, is she related to Michael Howard the ex Tory mp.

There's defiantly "something of the the night" about her!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: danumdon on May 12, 2022, 03:05:45 pm
''More than 100 fines have now been issued over partygate, say Met police – UK politics live''

But surprisingly nothing in the post for Johnson?

I'm imagining quite a few lefty's Throwing strops today.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on May 12, 2022, 03:21:05 pm
''More than 100 fines have now been issued over partygate, say Met police – UK politics live''

But surprisingly nothing in the post for Johnson?

I'm imagining quite a few lefty's Throwing strops today.

That'll be because it is a matter of record that Johnson wasn't at the 18 Dec 2020 party that these fines are for.

Have patience, my politically neutral friend.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 12, 2022, 11:42:48 pm
Rachel Reeves on tv this morning saying that sexism is rife in Parliament.
She didn’t say it was just from one side so by definition it appears to be a generalisation.
Not just the Tory MPs then.

I'm not sure how she would know this, because it would have to be a very dark night for someone to "bump"into her.

Just not sure about her, sitting there in the commons with her grans old undies on her face, she just has something about he i can't quite put my finger on it, is she related to Michael Howard the ex Tory mp.

There's defiantly "something of the the night" about her!

this recurring problem you have with women, is it something you wish to talk about, does it make you angry, a psychologist might say you are using 'attack is the best form of defence'
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 19, 2022, 11:46:27 am
''Carrie Johnson, the prime minister’s wife, has been told that she is not going to receive any further fines over Partygate, beyond the one we were told about in April, it is understood. The April fine related to the surprise birthday gathering she organised for the PM in the cabinet room. She was also being investigated over allegations that she held a party in the Downing Street flat on the night Dominic Cummings resigned, where Abba music was played loudly as she celebrated with friends the departure of an enemy. If the Met has decided not to fine her in relation to this, that suggests it has accepted the argument that government advisers who attended (reportedly her friends) were there for a work meeting''

Guardian Live

obviously nobody had a beer then?

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: big fat yorkshire pudding on May 19, 2022, 12:05:54 pm
I think the sue gray report is more important to be honest. Its not just the law that matters but the principle of what did or did not happen. Hopefully that gives us facts on what the pm did or didn't do.  At the least he lacks control of the staff in his building which is a failure of leadership in itself.

The fine over the birthday cake was the least of the issues as I could see (as it was when Keir Starmer had a cake) so if he's escaped with just that you have to question what they found on the other stuff.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 19, 2022, 12:10:39 pm
When we see all the detail we will know but that fact that 126 people inc the PM broke the law in what is effectively johnson's office and lied to parliament about it doesn't pass the pub test, he has to go.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on May 19, 2022, 12:25:20 pm
No10 Downing St is the most fined address in the country.

It certainly is crime, crime, crime day!
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on May 19, 2022, 12:29:27 pm
There's a very odd comment from the Met. The Acting Deputy Commissioner said that whether an event took place in someone's home was taken into account in deciding whether or not to impose a fine. I fail to see why that should be a factor - surely you either broke the law or you didn't, regardless of where (the daughter of a friend was a student during the first lockdown and was fined for having friends round to her house).

As BFYP says, it'll be interesting to see the detail in the Sue Gray report.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 19, 2022, 12:33:25 pm
From the info there is available at present, I would think a lot of ppl will be appealing their penalties, those not from #10 that is.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on May 19, 2022, 12:45:23 pm
There's a very odd comment from the Met. The Acting Deputy Commissioner said that whether an event took place in someone's home was taken into account in deciding whether or not to impose a fine. I fail to see why that should be a factor - surely you either broke the law or you didn't, regardless of where (the daughter of a friend was a student during the first lockdown and was fined for having friends round to her house).

As BFYP says, it'll be interesting to see the detail in the Sue Gray report.

There is a suggestion from a barrister that the law may not apply to 10 Downing St. Which would be a scandal in itself.

https://mobile.twitter.com/AdamWagner1/status/1468304243136229377

Though just listening to the news it seems there is a grey area of when a work event is in your home and whether that event is actually a party and his entitlement to be at home...

I think he's had some very clever legal advice.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 19, 2022, 01:55:06 pm
If all this is true the big question will be, why didn't the public know the difference between home and a home office or whatever it is.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 19, 2022, 02:04:04 pm
And

''The conclusion of the Met investigation into Partygate does not just mean that the Sue Gray report into the lockdown-busting events will be published imminently; it also triggers the launch of the privileges committee inquiry into claims that Boris Johnson deliberately misled MPs when he said the rules were followed at all times.

The Commons voted for this investigation to go ahead last month, but the motion passed by MPs said the committee would “not begin substantive consideration of the matter” until the Met inquiry was over''

It's never ends
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: danumdon on May 19, 2022, 02:45:07 pm
And

''The conclusion of the Met investigation into Partygate does not just mean that the Sue Gray report into the lockdown-busting events will be published imminently; it also triggers the launch of the privileges committee inquiry into claims that Boris Johnson deliberately misled MPs when he said the rules were followed at all times.

The Commons voted for this investigation to go ahead last month, but the motion passed by MPs said the committee would “not begin substantive consideration of the matter” until the Met inquiry was over''

It's never ends

Oh dear, sounds like you and ya pal might want to be left alone in your shared grief.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on May 19, 2022, 03:53:10 pm
I very much doubt what is left of the Sue Gray report after the redactions will tell us very much. I wonder if we will get to see the 300+ photos? Some will make their own mind up from them if we are, party or no party?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ForsolongaRover on May 19, 2022, 05:02:08 pm
When “Downing Street” is quoted as making a comment or answering a question, it is without doubt an official comment. It is not a collective term for a private house yet the implication to be drawn from the police taking that into consideration is that that they have been persuaded that that is its essential nature, that the primary function of 10 Downing Street is a residence.

You would have thought that the police would have proceeded on the more obvious basis and let those served with notices argue their case in Court.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: albie on May 19, 2022, 11:50:37 pm
Turns out that the Met only looked at some of the alleged breaches, not all of them;
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/partygate-police-probed-just-two-27013954

So how can they be satisfied that no further actionable breaches took place?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 20, 2022, 12:26:40 am
Turns out that the Met only looked at some of the alleged breaches, not all of them;
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/partygate-police-probed-just-two-27013954

So how can they be satisfied that no further actionable breaches took place?

If this is in any true and the police have deferred to the office of the PM or in fact the man himself it not only puts a dent in the statement that everyone is equal under the law and of course the separation of powers comes into question. 
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on May 20, 2022, 12:33:30 am
Turns out that the Met only looked at some of the alleged breaches, not all of them;
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/partygate-police-probed-just-two-27013954

So how can they be satisfied that no further actionable breaches took place?

So let's get this right. He attended 4 social events at his place of work, where people who shouldn't have been there were invited and have been fined for breaking the law. And it never dawned on him to stop the social events in his office? And that's all hunky dory?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 20, 2022, 04:56:43 am
Turns out that the Met only looked at some of the alleged breaches, not all of them;
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/partygate-police-probed-just-two-27013954

So how can they be satisfied that no further actionable breaches took place?

So let's get this right. He attended 4 social events at his place of work, where people who shouldn't have been there were invited and have been fined for breaking the law. And it never dawned on him to stop the social events in his office? And that's all hunky dory?

I reckon when some of those on the Billy Sharp thread see this there'll be another Peterloo, they'll march on Londongrad
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on May 20, 2022, 09:30:16 am
How would he know this in April
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on May 20, 2022, 10:53:54 am
And as the only people who could give that assurance would be the Metropolitan police, the Home Secretary and the Commisioner, how the hell did any of 'em know he would only recieve one fine weeks before the investigation finished?

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 20, 2022, 11:09:46 am
Not sure what Raaab is up to wanting the police Gray to name the other ministers that have received a fpn is it to take the heat of johnson or to make himself look good.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on May 20, 2022, 11:49:21 am
This is worth watching:

https://twitter.com/williamnhutton/status/1527226028799688704?s=20&t=UuzH1NpKLBGfD1kVo1llUA

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ForsolongaRover on May 20, 2022, 12:17:27 pm
Having reflected further on “home” and “(10) Downing Street” the PM actually resides at number 11, but the surprise birthday party took place in the Cabinet Room at number 10. So where does that lead us legally? Despite the fact that I assume Sunak lives in the No.10 flat does that make 10 Downing Street a residence or an office or a bit of both? We really need some legal clarification.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on May 20, 2022, 12:27:15 pm
Some posters have said that 10 Downing Street is the most fined address in the country.
But is it.  I would think that the fines that have been handed down would have gone to individuals and sent to their own home addresses, not to number ten.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 20, 2022, 12:30:04 pm
This is worth watching:

https://twitter.com/williamnhutton/status/1527226028799688704?s=20&t=UuzH1NpKLBGfD1kVo1llUA

BobG

It's a sad record and a dire warning Bob
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: normal rules on May 20, 2022, 12:44:57 pm
126 fines x £50. Although some repeat fines would have doubled no doubt.
So that’s probably between £6-7000 in fines.

And it’s taken a team of 14 detectives at a cost of nearly half a million Quid to investigate this . Someone, somewhere will argue this is good value for taxpayers money.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 20, 2022, 12:49:10 pm
Yep those that were fined way back for doing more or less the same

''Police in England and Wales have processed a total of 118,978 Fixed Penalty Notices (FPNs) for breaches under the Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) Regulations 2020 and subsequent amendments''

https://news.npcc.police.uk/releases/update-on-coronavirus-fpns-issued-by-forces-in-england-and-wales-and-the-payment-of-fpns

Not sure if this includes those issued to the government and staff but we do know 99% of them were not issued to those that drafted the legislation.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 20, 2022, 12:50:54 pm
And all the relatives and friends that missed seeing their loved ones a critical times
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on May 20, 2022, 01:04:56 pm
And all the relatives and friends that missed seeing their loved ones a critical times

The law is reason free from passion. Leave your emotional arguments at the door
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 20, 2022, 01:08:09 pm
And all the relatives and friends that missed seeing their loved ones a critical times

The law is reason free from passion. Leave your emotional arguments at the door

And everyone is supposed to be equal under the law, would you agree? Is my statement above true or not Ldr?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on May 20, 2022, 01:12:25 pm
I would Syd yes, I would also say my personal opinion is that as soon as emotive subject matter is brought into a debate then the debate loses focus. Feelings are the problem of the individual, not society. Party gate is as simple as person breaks law, person gets punished. As much as I hate the hypocrisy and the people involved, being equal under the law brings it down to that. Feelings are irrelevant
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 20, 2022, 01:16:55 pm
I would Syd yes, I would also say my personal opinion is that as soon as emotive subject matter is brought into a debate then the debate loses focus. Feelings are the problem of the individual, not society. Party gate is as simple as person breaks law, person gets punished. As much as I hate the hypocrisy and the people involved, being equal under the law brings it down to that. Feelings are irrelevant

really, maybe you should write to these ppl and tell them

https://covidfamiliesforjustice.org/

Government's first priority is to protect it's ppl.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on May 20, 2022, 01:18:21 pm
Emotive b*llocks, emotion should never drive law. Reason does
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on May 20, 2022, 01:19:32 pm
Have I missed this Sajid Javids brother is Deputy assistant Commisioner at the Met.!!! Is Dick still in charge or is this chap acting as boss at the mo? Obvioualy no conspiracy theories can come from this?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on May 20, 2022, 01:20:25 pm
Have I missed this Sajid Javids brother is Deputy Commisioner at the Met.!!! Is Dick still in charge or is this chap acting as boss at the mo? Obvioualy no conspiracy theories can come from this?

Is that right RR? Ffs no conflict of interest there at all is there?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on May 20, 2022, 01:22:16 pm
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/met-police-stitch-up-claim-26102172.amp
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 20, 2022, 01:23:06 pm
Emotive b*llocks, emotion should never drive law. Reason does

imho

Fixed that for you.


''A Victim Personal Statement (VPS) gives you the opportunity to explain in your own words the impact that the crime has had on you and your family. It will be taken into account by all criminal justice agencies involved in the case and it can play a key part in sentencing.12 Apr 2022''

https://www.victimsupport.org.uk/help-and-support/your-rights/victim-personal-statements/#:~:text=A%20Victim%20Personal%20Statement%20(VPS,a%20key%20part%20in%20sentencing.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on May 20, 2022, 01:24:33 pm
Sentencing is not the judgement as to whether they broke the law or not Syd. That is an emotionless judgement
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 20, 2022, 01:25:44 pm
whatever
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on May 20, 2022, 01:26:57 pm
Don’t hate Syd, it’s only one point
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 20, 2022, 01:36:59 pm
Don’t hate Syd, it’s only one point

What don't you understand, NR posed the question ''Someone, somewhere will argue this is good value for taxpayers money''

And my answers are above, my opinion and you have given yours, it's not a point of fact but I bet I'm am correct that they would care, please tell me you think they wouldn't. Maybe emotions are not your thing.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on May 20, 2022, 01:42:28 pm
They’re not Syd, as soon as people get emotive I tend to dismiss what they say. Whether they care or not is irrelevant to the law. Law was broken, punishment was given. Equality under the law
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 20, 2022, 01:43:41 pm
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/met-police-stitch-up-claim-26102172.amp

I struggle to believe that the government and the police has allowed this to happen, but then again. Maybe there was more than Dick looking after things.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on May 20, 2022, 01:47:37 pm
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/met-police-stitch-up-claim-26102172.amp

I struggle to believe that the government and the police has allowed this to happen, but then again. Maybe there was more than Dick looking after things.

I don’t with this corrupt lot
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on May 20, 2022, 02:31:32 pm
I would Syd yes, I would also say my personal opinion is that as soon as emotive subject matter is brought into a debate then the debate loses focus. Feelings are the problem of the individual, not society. Party gate is as simple as person breaks law, person gets punished. As much as I hate the hypocrisy and the people involved, being equal under the law brings it down to that. Feelings are irrelevant

You're forgetting the 'lying to Parliament' bit of Partygate.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on May 20, 2022, 02:37:13 pm
No Glyn, I’m commenting on how emotion has no place in law that’s all
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on May 20, 2022, 03:22:57 pm
Until recent years that's always been true LDR. It always used to be said that 'Hard cases make bad law'. But we've seen several instances of public emotion driving political action more lately. I'm not making any political point here either. It's true of all major parties. But reactive legislation, clearly driven by public emotion and the seeking after votes is unlikely to lead to happy long term outcomes.

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: albie on May 20, 2022, 04:17:32 pm
So has Carrie Antoinette been fined £10k for organising the cake do in Downing St?
Only fair because others were fined for organising events and gatherings at the time.

Anyone smelling a rat with this Met enquiry yet?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on May 20, 2022, 04:39:46 pm
Until recent years that's always been true LDR. It always used to be said that 'Hard cases make bad law'. But we've seen several instances of public emotion driving political action more lately. I'm not making any political point here either. It's true of all major parties. But reactive legislation, clearly driven by public emotion and the seeking after votes is unlikely to lead to happy long term outcomes.

BobG

Nail on head Bob, society seems to have become too concerned with feelings over facts
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on May 20, 2022, 04:47:25 pm
Too bloody right LDR. Too much touchy feely in the world these days for me and for good government.

If we could all take a bit of time to think about where, where would 'government by reaction' lead us? It would minimise the role of policy; it would create anachronisms all over the place; it would lead to groups really shouting that they had been disadvantaged by a previous reaction thus leading to ever more complex and cumbersome laws to delight the legal profession.

It's an entirely stupid way to govern. Just like government by plebiscite and referendum is.

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: ravenrover on May 20, 2022, 04:52:50 pm
So has Carrie Antoinette been fined £10k for organising the cake do in Downing St?
Only fair because others were fined for organising events and gatherings at the time.

Anyone smelling a rat with this Met enquiry yet?
See post #885
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on May 20, 2022, 04:56:49 pm
According to a Yougov poll, 52% of the public don't trust The Met investigation.

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on May 20, 2022, 05:16:32 pm
Perhaps the other 48% will try to overturn that.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on May 20, 2022, 05:17:53 pm
Perhaps the other 48% will try to overturn that.

10% are don't knows.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on May 20, 2022, 05:37:32 pm
I wonder what percentage of the country will trust The Durham Constabulary when they don't give Keir Starmer a fixed penalty fine?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on May 20, 2022, 06:33:15 pm
We now have an opportunity to see government in action.

I decided to write to my MP this last Wednesday about something appalling I witnessed in an office in Medellin where a UK government appointed company takes personal biometric data and possession of the passport of anyone seeking a visa to enter the UK. Absolutely scandalous behaviour.

I got the standard automatic reply telling me that my MP is a busy bloke and he'll try to reply in the next month or so. But damn me, within 24 hours I got this:


Dear Mr Gilbert,

Sir Geoffrey has asked me to thank you for taking the time to write to him about the concerning events which have taken place in Medellin.  We are very sorry to read that Paola has been the victim of fraud.

In order to be of assistance with this matter, Sir Geoffrey will raise your correspondence with the Home Secretary, the Rt Hon Priti Patel MP, as the Secretary of State in charge of the Home Office, the department responsible for the issuing of UK visas, to request a review of the circumstances you describe and a full response.

Please rest assured that we will let you know just as soon as we are in receipt of a response.

We hope that this will prove helpful.

Yours sincerely,

 
Piers Baker,
Office of
 
Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown F.R.I.C.S. M.P.
Member of Parliament for The Cotswolds


If you can translate political speak, that is some bloody reply! A reply inside 24 hours tells you a lot too.

The implications of what I saw are dreadful for individuals and potentially dreadful for the reputation of this country. But even with the latter in mind, I'm pretty impressed with the speed at which my local, Conservative, MP has reacted. The fact that I can now claim to have my correspondence on the desk of the Home Secretary of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is pretty impressive too! I'm agog to find out what happens.

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: danumdon on May 20, 2022, 07:01:05 pm

That's some rapidly expediated reply from your local MPs office, If we know anything about MS Patel you can guarantee a knock on your door from your local friendly constabulary any time soon.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on May 20, 2022, 07:06:22 pm
I wonder what percentage of the country will trust The Durham Constabulary when they don't give Keir Starmer a fixed penalty fine?


There is no way Starmer is getting fined. His resignation would put the heat back on Johnson.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on May 20, 2022, 07:56:24 pm
I wonder what percentage of the country will trust The Durham Constabulary when they don't give Keir Starmer a fixed penalty fine?


There is no way Starmer is getting fined. His resignation would put the heat back on Johnson.
Of course he isn't, and he knows it. He's used it to come over all decent and moral and honest but the only people he's convinced are those who didn't need convincing in the first place. Put it this way, supposing (hypothetically speaking because it won't happen) he was told he had broken the law but was not going to be fined. Why won't he be decent and moral enough to resign then?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on May 20, 2022, 08:09:57 pm
I wonder what percentage of the country will trust The Durham Constabulary when they don't give Keir Starmer a fixed penalty fine?


There is no way Starmer is getting fined. His resignation would put the heat back on Johnson.
Of course he isn't, and he knows it. He's used it to come over all decent and moral and honest but the only people he's convinced are those who didn't need convincing in the first place. Put it this way, supposing (hypothetically speaking because it won't happen) he was told he had broken the law but was not going to be fined. Why won't he be decent and moral enough to resign then?

I think if he's found to have broken the law it's highly likely he'll resign.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on May 20, 2022, 08:12:23 pm
I thought he said he wouldn't?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on May 20, 2022, 08:22:55 pm
A bloke who has built his entire reputation on upholding the law can't hold on if he's broken the law.

As I understand it, unless he is issued with a fine then he hasn't broken the law.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on May 20, 2022, 08:32:03 pm
According to a Yougov poll, 52% of the public don't trust The Met investigation.



Or, according to Nadine Dorries, 96% do support it.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on May 20, 2022, 08:37:47 pm
A bloke who has built his entire reputation on upholding the law can't hold on if he's broken the law.

As I understand it, unless he is issued with a fine then he hasn't broken the law.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/10/sir-keir-starmer-will-not-resign-beergate-broke-rules-isnt-fined/
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: scawsby steve on May 20, 2022, 08:38:21 pm
Have I missed this Sajid Javids brother is Deputy assistant Commisioner at the Met.!!! Is Dick still in charge or is this chap acting as boss at the mo? Obvioualy no conspiracy theories can come from this?

I don't see how a Deputy Assistant Commissioner could act as Commissioner. There are two ranks directly above him, Assistant Commissioner, and Deputy Commissioner.

I believe it's the Deputy Commissioner who takes over when the Commissioner is unavailable, or when a new one hasn't yet been appointed. 
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on May 20, 2022, 08:41:18 pm
A bloke who has built his entire reputation on upholding the law can't hold on if he's broken the law.

As I understand it, unless he is issued with a fine then he hasn't broken the law.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2022/05/10/sir-keir-starmer-will-not-resign-beergate-broke-rules-isnt-fined/

Yes. He will resign if he has broken the law.

If he is reprimanded he hasn't broken the law. It will be a surprise if he's reprimanded.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on May 20, 2022, 08:44:55 pm
So you're not classing breaking the rules and breaking the law as the same thing?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on May 20, 2022, 08:50:46 pm
So you're not classing breaking the rules and breaking the law as the same thing?

I still think a reprimand might be enough to force a resignation depending on the judgement. We shall see.

Boris will be hoping it's all above board, that's for sure.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on May 20, 2022, 09:03:00 pm
Sue Gray and Boris Johnson had private meeting to discuss handling of partygate report, Sky News understands:

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1527726289527898113

'impartial investigation'
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on May 20, 2022, 09:28:33 pm
I wonder what percentage of the country will trust The Durham Constabulary when they don't give Keir Starmer a fixed penalty fine?


There is no way Starmer is getting fined. His resignation would put the heat back on Johnson.

Durham constabulary have said that they will not retrospectively fine people for something that happened two years ago.
Starmer chose his words carefully to fit that situation when he said he would resign if he was fined.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on May 20, 2022, 09:35:59 pm
Murdoch's top political journalist confirms this is correct:

Everyone in Britain still acts as if this was a normal government. Instead it is a project of deliberate destruction, of laws, of institutions, of anything that stands in the way of a PM who just doesn’t want to be held to account

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1527729072398278657

But Keir Starmer had a beer with his dinner.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: big fat yorkshire pudding on May 20, 2022, 10:14:12 pm
Sue Gray and Boris Johnson had private meeting to discuss handling of partygate report, Sky News understands:

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1527726289527898113

'impartial investigation'

I thought the report was mostly finished ages ago?  Reviewing the outcome seems entirely appropriate to me, as long as the full report is published.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on May 20, 2022, 10:26:37 pm
Murdoch's top political journalist confirms this is correct:

Everyone in Britain still acts as if this was a normal government. Instead it is a project of deliberate destruction, of laws, of institutions, of anything that stands in the way of a PM who just doesn’t want to be held to account

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1527729072398278657

But Keir Starmer had a beer with his dinner.

Mmm, not quite the whole scenario there wilts.
Was it an illegal gathering, he denied at first that his deputy leader was present then suddenly realised there was evidence to prove she was there so he “remembered” that she was.
She is hardly difficult to miss is she.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 21, 2022, 12:37:40 am
This is what will need some explaining .......

''Adam Wagner, the leading authority on Covid law, puts it, the Met’s position amounts to a finding that Johnson “attended six illegal gatherings but attended five of them legally”''

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/20/boris-johnson-lying-pm-britain-tories

Consorting, conspiracy, illegal gathering, disorderly house, it's hard to equate police action over a vigil for a murder victim since found to be legal and #10 acting as a crack house.

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on May 21, 2022, 07:40:53 am
Johnson also had a private meeting with Gray. So much for an impartial judgement there then.

https://news.sky.com/story/sue-gray-and-boris-johnson-had-private-meeting-to-discuss-handling-of-partygate-report-sky-news-understands-12617829

There's a strong fishy smell around here.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on May 21, 2022, 03:27:52 pm
Sue Gray and Boris Johnson had private meeting to discuss handling of partygate report, Sky News understands:

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1527726289527898113

'impartial investigation'

I thought the report was mostly finished ages ago?  Reviewing the outcome seems entirely appropriate to me, as long as the full report is published.

How can reviewing the outcome before it is published possibly be appropriate?

This investigation has never been particularly independant, it essentially involves an enployee investigating her boss.

To then find they had a meeting before its contents were published... Well, I don't think it's contents can really be taken very seriously. It already looks very much like a whitewash.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on May 21, 2022, 07:51:13 pm
Sue Gray and Boris Johnson had private meeting to discuss handling of partygate report, Sky News understands:

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1527726289527898113

'impartial investigation'

I thought the report was mostly finished ages ago?  Reviewing the outcome seems entirely appropriate to me, as long as the full report is published.

What is there to review if the full report is to be published?

Clearly the only reason for them to have a meeting is to decide what part of it is NOT going to be published (allegedly the photos that showed Johnson, with beer/wine, at events for which he has not been fined).
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on May 21, 2022, 07:54:28 pm
Boris Johnson is expected to scapegoat the head of the civil service Simon Case this week in a desperate effort to save his own job, as both men face stinging criticism in a report into lockdown-breaking parties in Downing Street.

One senior Whitehall figure who has seen sections of the report said it could also prove more damaging for Johnson than the fine he was given in April for attending his own birthday party, because it will make clear the PM’s involvement in several other events which may have breached rules, but for which he was not fined.

“From my expectation of what I know it will be the real deal. There will be detail. There will be evidence. She is going to say this is under your watch, this is your house, all that kind of stuff,” the source said.

A friend of Gray who has worked at a high level with her in the civil service said the report would make “gruesome” reading for both the prime minister and his most senior civil servants and that Gray was in no mood to be forced into watering down her findings.

Sections of the report may prove more damaging for the PM than the fine he was given for attending his own birthday party, according to a senior Whitehall figure. Photograph: Andrew Parsons/10 Downing Street/AFP/Getty Images

The friend said that before the Johnson era, the only party that was ever held among staff in Downing Street was the annual Christmas one. “We didn’t have karaoke machines and suitcases to bring in drink in those days. I think it will be very difficult for Simon Case.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/21/boris-johnson-to-sacrifice-top-official-over-partygate-to-save-himself
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: River Don on May 21, 2022, 10:09:23 pm
Now they are disputing who initiated this meeting. Gray is furious Johnson is claiming it was her. Who to believe?

It seems to be every little thing is a bit dodgy.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on May 21, 2022, 11:03:40 pm
Now they are disputing who initiated this meeting. Gray is furious Johnson is claiming it was her. Who to believe?

It seems to be every little thing is a bit dodgy.

Yes tricky one RD. Who to believe?

Sue Gray, long time civil servant with 40 years unblemished service, including a time as Director General of Propriety & Ethics. In which role the people she investigated (and ended up loosing their jobs) called her fair & extremly straightforward.

Or Alexander de Pfellel Johnson, who doesnt use his real name, has been sacked twice for lying, refuses to say how many children he has, is the first ever sitting PM to be given a criminal sanction and is currently under investigation by a Parliamentary Committee for potentially lying to Parliament.

Tough one.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on May 22, 2022, 05:34:59 am
Murdoch's top political journalist confirms this is correct:

Everyone in Britain still acts as if this was a normal government. Instead it is a project of deliberate destruction, of laws, of institutions, of anything that stands in the way of a PM who just doesn’t want to be held to account

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1527729072398278657

But Keir Starmer had a beer with his dinner.

Mmm, not quite the whole scenario there wilts.
Was it an illegal gathering, he denied at first that his deputy leader was present then suddenly realised there was evidence to prove she was there so he “remembered” that she was.
She is hardly difficult to miss is she.

That's interesting hound, I never knew Starmer had denied Rayner was having a curry in Durham with him. Do you have the evidence for that?

I seem to remember there was lots of press and tv coverage of them both campaigning together that day in the north-east (it was a pretty big deal as their first by-election as leader/deputy leader), so where else would she had her dinner working form home?

https://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/news/politics/12-pictures-as-sir-keir-starmer-and-angela-rayner-visit-hartlepool-and-durham-on-labour-campaign-trail-3221769

So strange of Starmer to say that? If you can show us where he did then maybe we can see why?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 22, 2022, 05:46:44 am
he doesn't do answers, or apologies, snigger
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on May 22, 2022, 07:48:12 am
Wilts,  from The Northern Echo. 

Labour made a “genuine mistake” in denying Angela Rayner was at a campaign event in Durham where Sir Keir Starmer was photographed drinking beer.
That was admission of the party leader when questioned about the issue on Sky News on Sunday today.



Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on May 22, 2022, 09:00:16 am
Wilts,  from The Northern Echo. 

Labour made a “genuine mistake” in denying Angela Rayner was at a campaign event in Durham where Sir Keir Starmer was photographed drinking beer.
That was admission of the party leader when questioned about the issue on Sky News on Sunday today.


But that's not what you said hound:

Murdoch's top political journalist confirms this is correct:

Everyone in Britain still acts as if this was a normal government. Instead it is a project of deliberate destruction, of laws, of institutions, of anything that stands in the way of a PM who just doesn’t want to be held to account

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1527729072398278657

But Keir Starmer had a beer with his dinner.

Mmm, not quite the whole scenario there wilts.
Was it an illegal gathering, he denied at first that his deputy leader was present then suddenly realised there was evidence to prove she was there so he “remembered” that she was.
She is hardly difficult to miss is she.

'he denied at first'

Looks like it is easy for people to make mistakes and get things wrong. Even when they know what actually happened as they saw a tv interview about it.

That doesn't make them liars.

Being present at an event then giving a false account of that event - that's a liar.

Hound said something to me that wasn't true. I don't believe hound lied here - he just got it wrong.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Glyn_Wigley on May 22, 2022, 09:24:46 am
That reads to me that Starmer's admission is that a mistake was made by whoever said Raynor wasn't there. Not that he himself had said that.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on May 22, 2022, 10:07:52 am
Fascinating how these ideas take hold. Starmer never said a word about Rayner not being at that meeting. But so many people on the Right are just certain that he denied she was, so desperate are they to have their prejudice confirmed that he's a liar.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BobG on May 22, 2022, 11:04:59 am
We are quickly approaching the point of Britain being a nation of liars aren't we?

We tell lies when we sign treaties
We tell lies in the House of Commons
We tell lies, by omission at least, when we report on current events
We tell lies when we seek to vilify someone
We tell lies every time the press goes to print
We tell lies by misusing 96% of statistics....
We tell lies to ourselves every single day by pretending to a world role that we do not and cannot have 
We tell lies by pretending we care about the mentally ill, the deprived, refugees and the North
We tell lies about the impact that Brexit will have
We tell lies about the flow of money, where it comes from and where it goes

This country is fundamentally dishonest.

BobG
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 22, 2022, 11:57:20 am
And on cue ........

''Nadhim Zahawi refuses to say who called Boris Johnson meeting with Sue Gray
Minister asked repeatedly for details on PM’s meeting with senior civil servant ahead of Partygate report''

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/may/22/nadhim-zahawi-refuses-to-say-who-called-boris-johnson-meeting-with-sue-gray

why in earth can't you just say johnson's aide rang Gray's office for an appointment?

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on May 22, 2022, 03:05:16 pm
Wilts,  from The Northern Echo. 

Labour made a “genuine mistake” in denying Angela Rayner was at a campaign event in Durham where Sir Keir Starmer was photographed drinking beer.
That was admission of the party leader when questioned about the issue on Sky News on Sunday today.


But that's not what you said hound:

Murdoch's top political journalist confirms this is correct:

Everyone in Britain still acts as if this was a normal government. Instead it is a project of deliberate destruction, of laws, of institutions, of anything that stands in the way of a PM who just doesn’t want to be held to account

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1527729072398278657

But Keir Starmer had a beer with his dinner.

Mmm, not quite the whole scenario there wilts.
Was it an illegal gathering, he denied at first that his deputy leader was present then suddenly realised there was evidence to prove she was there so he “remembered” that she was.
She is hardly difficult to miss is she.

'he denied at first'

Looks like it is easy for people to make mistakes and get things wrong. Even when they know what actually happened as they saw a tv interview about it.

That doesn't make them liars.

Being present at an event then giving a false account of that event - that's a liar.

Hound said something to me that wasn't true. I don't believe hound lied here - he just got it wrong.

Wilts, is it possible that Starmer didn’t know anything about the Raynor question given that Labour were denying for three months that she was at the beer gate gathering?  Could it really be possible that he knew nothing about it.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: wilts rover on May 22, 2022, 04:09:59 pm
Wilts,  from The Northern Echo. 

Labour made a “genuine mistake” in denying Angela Rayner was at a campaign event in Durham where Sir Keir Starmer was photographed drinking beer.
That was admission of the party leader when questioned about the issue on Sky News on Sunday today.


But that's not what you said hound:

Murdoch's top political journalist confirms this is correct:

Everyone in Britain still acts as if this was a normal government. Instead it is a project of deliberate destruction, of laws, of institutions, of anything that stands in the way of a PM who just doesn’t want to be held to account

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1527729072398278657

But Keir Starmer had a beer with his dinner.

Mmm, not quite the whole scenario there wilts.
Was it an illegal gathering, he denied at first that his deputy leader was present then suddenly realised there was evidence to prove she was there so he “remembered” that she was.
She is hardly difficult to miss is she.

'he denied at first'

Looks like it is easy for people to make mistakes and get things wrong. Even when they know what actually happened as they saw a tv interview about it.

That doesn't make them liars.

Being present at an event then giving a false account of that event - that's a liar.

Hound said something to me that wasn't true. I don't believe hound lied here - he just got it wrong.

Wilts, is it possible that Starmer didn’t know anything about the Raynor question given that Labour were denying for three months that she was at the beer gate gathering?  Could it really be possible that he knew nothing about it.

I have no idea hound. Because he was never asked about it (until very recently).

Did the person who said she wasn't there know? The event was in April 2021 - they were quizzed in January 2022. They might not even have been working for the Labour Party then? Were they on the trip? Were they briefed before talking to the press? Until you know the answers to these questions then you can't say they lied - or they got the answer wrong?

It was poor of the journalists to let them get away with it that's for sure. Because she was quite clearly in Durham with Starmer, so where else would she have been eating?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on May 22, 2022, 04:19:00 pm
Wilts,  from The Northern Echo. 

Labour made a “genuine mistake” in denying Angela Rayner was at a campaign event in Durham where Sir Keir Starmer was photographed drinking beer.
That was admission of the party leader when questioned about the issue on Sky News on Sunday today.


But that's not what you said hound:

Murdoch's top political journalist confirms this is correct:

Everyone in Britain still acts as if this was a normal government. Instead it is a project of deliberate destruction, of laws, of institutions, of anything that stands in the way of a PM who just doesn’t want to be held to account

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1527729072398278657

But Keir Starmer had a beer with his dinner.

Mmm, not quite the whole scenario there wilts.
Was it an illegal gathering, he denied at first that his deputy leader was present then suddenly realised there was evidence to prove she was there so he “remembered” that she was.
She is hardly difficult to miss is she.

'he denied at first'

Looks like it is easy for people to make mistakes and get things wrong. Even when they know what actually happened as they saw a tv interview about it.

That doesn't make them liars.

Being present at an event then giving a false account of that event - that's a liar.

Hound said something to me that wasn't true. I don't believe hound lied here - he just got it wrong.

Wilts, is it possible that Starmer didn’t know anything about the Raynor question given that Labour were denying for three months that she was at the beer gate gathering?  Could it really be possible that he knew nothing about it.

I have no idea hound. Because he was never asked about it (until very recently).

Did the person who said she wasn't there know? The event was in April 2021 - they were quizzed in January 2022. They might not even have been working for the Labour Party then? Were they on the trip? Were they briefed before talking to the press? Until you know the answers to these questions then you can't say they lied - or they got the answer wrong?

It was poor of the journalists to let them get away with it that's for sure. Because she was quite clearly in Durham with Starmer, so where else would she have been eating?

Yep, I agree that a minion might have told the press about her not being there and you are right that it was unlikely that Raynor would have eaten elsewhere and I know that you don’t know the answers.
But as leader, I find it hard to believe  that no one told him (Starmer) over a three month period that there was something going on.
He would have had the opportunity much earlier to clear it all up but probably chose not to in the hope that it would all blow over.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on May 22, 2022, 09:04:05 pm
Wilts,  from The Northern Echo. 

Labour made a “genuine mistake” in denying Angela Rayner was at a campaign event in Durham where Sir Keir Starmer was photographed drinking beer.
That was admission of the party leader when questioned about the issue on Sky News on Sunday today.


But that's not what you said hound:

Murdoch's top political journalist confirms this is correct:

Everyone in Britain still acts as if this was a normal government. Instead it is a project of deliberate destruction, of laws, of institutions, of anything that stands in the way of a PM who just doesn’t want to be held to account

https://twitter.com/ShippersUnbound/status/1527729072398278657

But Keir Starmer had a beer with his dinner.

Mmm, not quite the whole scenario there wilts.
Was it an illegal gathering, he denied at first that his deputy leader was present then suddenly realised there was evidence to prove she was there so he “remembered” that she was.
She is hardly difficult to miss is she.

'he denied at first'

Looks like it is easy for people to make mistakes and get things wrong. Even when they know what actually happened as they saw a tv interview about it.

That doesn't make them liars.

Being present at an event then giving a false account of that event - that's a liar.

Hound said something to me that wasn't true. I don't believe hound lied here - he just got it wrong.

Wilts, is it possible that Starmer didn’t know anything about the Raynor question given that Labour were denying for three months that she was at the beer gate gathering?  Could it really be possible that he knew nothing about it.

I have no idea hound. Because he was never asked about it (until very recently).

Did the person who said she wasn't there know? The event was in April 2021 - they were quizzed in January 2022. They might not even have been working for the Labour Party then? Were they on the trip? Were they briefed before talking to the press? Until you know the answers to these questions then you can't say they lied - or they got the answer wrong?

It was poor of the journalists to let them get away with it that's for sure. Because she was quite clearly in Durham with Starmer, so where else would she have been eating?
And again. The insistence on convincing oneself that Starmer is lying

Labour DIDN'T deny for three months that Rayner was there. A junior staffer in the media team was asked once and got it wrong. Then this wasn't mentioned for three months.

Hardly Watergate, is it?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Bentley Bullet on May 22, 2022, 10:38:42 pm
BST. If Starmer's not a liar, why do you want him to get in power?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: big fat yorkshire pudding on May 22, 2022, 11:06:14 pm
Sue Gray and Boris Johnson had private meeting to discuss handling of partygate report, Sky News understands:

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1527726289527898113

'impartial investigation'

I thought the report was mostly finished ages ago?  Reviewing the outcome seems entirely appropriate to me, as long as the full report is published.

What is there to review if the full report is to be published?

Clearly the only reason for them to have a meeting is to decide what part of it is NOT going to be published (allegedly the photos that showed Johnson, with beer/wine, at events for which he has not been fined).

Not at all. It may reference him, his staff etc etc.  All of these people are still subject to the same employment rules and regulations as the rest of us, hence sue gray writing to those involved in advance of publication. Its the right thing to do.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 22, 2022, 11:12:33 pm
Sue Gray and Boris Johnson had private meeting to discuss handling of partygate report, Sky News understands:

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1527726289527898113

'impartial investigation'

I thought the report was mostly finished ages ago?  Reviewing the outcome seems entirely appropriate to me, as long as the full report is published.

What is there to review if the full report is to be published?

Clearly the only reason for them to have a meeting is to decide what part of it is NOT going to be published (allegedly the photos that showed Johnson, with beer/wine, at events for which he has not been fined).

Not at all. It may reference him, his staff etc etc. All of these people are still subject to the same employment rules and regulations as the rest of us, hence sue gray writing to those involved in advance of publication. Its the right thing to do.

which 'rest of us' are you talking about pud?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on May 22, 2022, 11:33:51 pm
Sue Gray and Boris Johnson had private meeting to discuss handling of partygate report, Sky News understands:

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1527726289527898113

'impartial investigation'

I thought the report was mostly finished ages ago?  Reviewing the outcome seems entirely appropriate to me, as long as the full report is published.

What is there to review if the full report is to be published?

Clearly the only reason for them to have a meeting is to decide what part of it is NOT going to be published (allegedly the photos that showed Johnson, with beer/wine, at events for which he has not been fined).

Not at all. It may reference him, his staff etc etc. All of these people are still subject to the same employment rules and regulations as the rest of us, hence sue gray writing to those involved in advance of publication. Its the right thing to do.

which 'rest of us' are you talking about pud?


People in the UK.
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 23, 2022, 01:48:03 am
Maybe if the scrutiny that some football fans want to apply across the game whether it be to other fans, teams. players, finance, equality, policing, penalties, honesty and governance was applied to the leaders of the country and they in turn set an example for society to live up to instead of being looked down upon, it would be a better world ............ just sayin' like.

Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: Ldr on May 23, 2022, 09:12:47 am
I may have missed this, apologies if has been posted before.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10843173/Boris-Johnson-hating-Barrister-continued-role-Partygate-probe-despite-slew-tweets.html
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: drfchound on May 23, 2022, 10:27:58 am
I may have missed this, apologies if has been posted before.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10843173/Boris-Johnson-hating-Barrister-continued-role-Partygate-probe-despite-slew-tweets.html

Left wing, hates Boris Johnson and very anti Brexit.
Is he from Sheffield?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: BillyStubbsTears on May 23, 2022, 10:47:06 am
BST. If Starmer's not a liar, why do you want him to get in power?

I assume that sounded really witty before you typed it?
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: SydneyRover on May 23, 2022, 11:07:05 am
Simon Clarke: ''He said the “extraordinary pressure” that No 10 staff were under during the pandemic helped to explain why the Partygate lockdown breaches happened''

It's a good job that health care workers didn't respond to the long hours, pressure, extreme danger and loss of their friends colleagues in the same way.

Michael Rosen has just replied

''Dear Simon Clarke
Heard your int. on radio. Your point about the No 10 parties happening because of the extreme pressure we were under is well made. Compared to us politicos, all the nurses, doctors or families who lost relatives don't know what pressure is.
Vino glorioso
Boris
Title: Re: Talk Your Way Out Of This One Johnson
Post by: big fat yorkshire pudding on May 23, 2022, 11:45:58 am