Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: BillyStubbsTears on May 13, 2022, 10:56:08 am
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Bunch of t**ts aren't they..
They supported Brexit on the assumption that it would weaken ties between NI and Ireland. They were warned that Brexit would jeopardise the GFA but they ignored that. Now they are bringing the entire devolved political system in NI into danger until they get their way.
Playing with fire on a huge scale.
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If only they were dealing with a Government that cared one jot for either Brexit or Northern Ireland.
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The DUP is simply following in the footsteps of that appalling man who founded them in the first place. Bigots. Bigots who cannot concieve of any possibility that they may have taken a wrong turn somewhere or misunderstood something sometime. Self righteous bloody bigots.
BobG
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The DUP is simply following in the footsteps of that appalling man who founded them in the first place. Bigots. Bigots who cannot concieve of any possibility that they may have taken a wrong turn somewhere or misunderstood something sometime. Self righteous bloody bigots.
BobG
Bob, that appalling man worked alongside the Nationalists to form a functioning govt in Northern Ireland in the end
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At some point, the DUP are going to have to face up to the fact that the Tories have no interest in NI or the electoral prospects of the DUP.
They had leverage when their votes could shore up the government, but when that moment passed they went back into the shadows.
The world that the DUP live in is dying out, and with demographic change and the lifestyle choices of younger voters the days of the DUP are numbered.
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The DUP is simply following in the footsteps of that appalling man who founded them in the first place. Bigots. Bigots who cannot concieve of any possibility that they may have taken a wrong turn somewhere or misunderstood something sometime. Self righteous bloody bigots.
BobG
Bob, that appalling man worked alongside the Nationalists to form a functioning govt in Northern Ireland in the end
He did, and most likely that was amidst being offered benefits and with a consideration of the DUP vote share. Worth putting into that view of his latter days how he was getting on, maybe mellowing, certainly seeing that as the only way forward, possibly thinking about his epitaph. The rising tide of the Catholic majority situation in Ulster is inevitable, as too is the rise of the non sectarian option in politics there, you could say the DUP are a bunch of desperate Cnuts?
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What this country needs more than anything is for none sectarian parties to come to the fore, The Alliance party have made some in roads in these local elections but it needs more. The sooner they can remove sectarian attitudes is the time this country will prosper and be able to move away from the bigoted views from extremists, both unionist and republicans.
Its 2022 not 1922.
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What this country needs more than anything is for none sectarian parties to come to the fore, The Alliance party have made some in roads in these local elections but it needs more. The sooner they can remove sectarian attitudes is the time this country will prosper and be able to move away from the bigoted views from extremists, both unionist and republicans.
Its 2022 not 1922.
Yes, as in this case the extreme populist right wing government produced a protocol to solve a problem of their own making that they knew from the off wouldn't work and wouldn't honour, but there you go
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Perfect summary of NI/Brexit here.
https://mobile.twitter.com/rorybremner/status/1525160445459447809
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i think both parties in ireland are as bad as each other none are prepared to form a proper government and blame the other
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Bpool.
What makes you think Sinn Fein aren't prepared to form a Govt?
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Bpool.
What makes you think Sinn Fein aren't prepared to form a Govt?
they probably would now they have more seats
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Bpool.
What makes you think Sinn Fein aren't prepared to form a Govt?
they probably would now they have more seats
They would have done before the election when they didn't have more seats.
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Bpool.
What makes you think Sinn Fein aren't prepared to form a Govt?
they probably would now they have more seats
They would have done before the election when they didn't have more seats.
they haven't for a while thou have they?
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Bpool.
What makes you think Sinn Fein aren't prepared to form a Govt?
they probably would now they have more seats
They would have done before the election when they didn't have more seats.
they haven't for a while thou have they?
They haven't what for a while though? Formed a government with a party that refuses to do so?
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Blackpool! That's just bonkers man. Are you trying to re-write history or somethimg???
BobG
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An interesting read about Braverman, which gives any that want to deny reality an oppotunity to sue the author I guess.
''The attorney general’s office was worthy of respect. Suella the stooge disgraces it''
''Ireland was the scene of a Boris Johnson masterclass in deception. In the 2019 election, he fooled millions into believing his “oven-ready deal” would “Get Brexit Done!” and we need not worry about the warnings of John Major, Tony Blair and Theresa May of the threat to the Northern Ireland settlement. Johnson’s straight lie that his withdrawal agreement would not put a border in the Irish Sea – “over my dead body,” he cried and yet the border is there and Johnson still lives – fooled the supposedly hard-nosed Democratic Unionist party. Finally, he conned the European Union into believing he was a man of his word when he signed a treaty confirming Northern Ireland’s special status that he had no intention of honouring'' ...................
......... ''Last week, Braverman justified Johnson’s decision to ignore the majority of voters in Northern Ireland as he tried to regain the trust of the Democratic Unionist party politicians he had so spectacularly cheated by ripping up the international treaty he had so sincerely promised to honour. You did not need to be a lawyer to grasp the speciousness of her special pleading''
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/14/attorney-generals-office-worthy-of-respect-suella-the-stooge-disgraces-it
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That's all well and good but shouldn't the legitimate concerns of the unionist elements in Northern Ireland be listened to whether we agree or not?
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Do you think what they are doing is fair? do you think the predicament johnson's duplicity was the correct way to deal with the situation?
An international agreement he knew wouldn't work, was predicted not to work, an agreement he was never intending to adhere to.
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That's all well and good but shouldn't the legitimate concerns of the unionist elements in Northern Ireland be listened to whether we agree or not?
Their concerns might be more legitimate if they hadn't voted for them!
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That's all well and good but shouldn't the legitimate concerns of the unionist elements in Northern Ireland be listened to whether we agree or not?
Their concerns might be more legitimate if they hadn't voted for them!
They would be even more legitimate if they were not still claiming salaries for a job they aren't - and have no intention of in the near future - doing.
I think they actually voted against the WA btw.
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Sorry, you're right Wilts, the DUP did vote against the WA at the end when they realised they'd been diddled by Johnson.
Until that point they'd been ardent supporters of Brexit and the Johnson government. How did they think it was going to turn out!
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That's all well and good but shouldn't the legitimate concerns of the unionist elements in Northern Ireland be listened to whether we agree or not?
They and everyone else were told in 2016 that the one and only way that Brexit and the GFA could exist together was if there was a trade border between GB and NI.
They still campaigned for and voted for Brexit. The (correct) warnings were called "Project Fear".
That tells me that either they were a) comfortable with the trade border, b) prepared to risk the collapse of the GFA or c) too thick to add 2 and 2 correctly.
Tell me how we are meant to accommodate their "legitimate concerns" now?
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It's really, really simple.
If Britain is outside the SM and CU, and Ireland is inside them, there has to be a trade border either between GB and NI or between NI and Ireland. The latter destroys the GFA.
Once...just once, I'd like a Brexit supporter to put their hand up and tell me how they propose cutting THAT Gordian Knot. The one they steadfastly refused to even admit existed for years.
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I think the Biden team would have spelt out the consequences of getting it wrong from here.
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It's really, really simple.
If Britain is outside the SM and CU, and Ireland is inside them, there has to be a trade border either between GB and NI or between NI and Ireland. The latter destroys the GFA.
Once...just once, I'd like a Brexit supporter to put their hand up and tell me how they propose cutting THAT Gordian Knot. The one they steadfastly refused to even admit existed for years.
A united Ireland Billy and something I've always supported .
A united Ireland remaining in the EU .
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Then how do you propose dealing with the massive Unionist unrest that comes with that. If that's what you want, deal with the consequences.
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Then how do you propose dealing with the massive Unionist unrest that comes with that. If that's what you want, deal with the consequences.
NI as an Independent country for me
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Then how do do deal with the massive unrest on BOTH sides of the sectarian divide?
Come on folks. Address this SERIOUSLY.
You who wanted Brexit have caused this problem that you were warned about and ignored. Now sort it out with some serious proposals, not this pie in the sky waffle.
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Then how do do deal with the massive unrest on BOTH sides of the sectarian divide?
Come on folks. Address this SERIOUSLY.
You who wanted Brexit have caused this problem that you were warned about and ignored. Now sort it out with some serious proposals, not this pie in the sky waffle.
Would be their problem as an independent nation.
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Free to join Ireland
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Then how do do deal with the massive unrest on BOTH sides of the sectarian divide?
Come on folks. Address this SERIOUSLY.
You who wanted Brexit have caused this problem that you were warned about and ignored. Now sort it out with some serious proposals, not this pie in the sky waffle.
Would be their problem as an independent nation.
That's a cracker. Now I know you're dicking about.
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Then how do do deal with the massive unrest on BOTH sides of the sectarian divide?
Come on folks. Address this SERIOUSLY.
You who wanted Brexit have caused this problem that you were warned about and ignored. Now sort it out with some serious proposals, not this pie in the sky waffle.
It isn't pie in the sky waffle though is it .
It's inevitable at some stage there will be a United Ireland , the current make up of NI is 48% Protestant or brought up Protestant and 45% Catholic or brought up Catholic .
The highest birth rate is amongst the Catholic community so by definition they will at some point become by population figures becone the dominant community .
Sinn Fein are getting stronger in the NI political scene .
There has to be a democratic process attached to a United Ireland becoming real .
If that vote passes and the Protestant community rise up then they have to be put down by a combination of British and Irish armed forces .
The same as anyone should be who deny democracy .
I haven't the simple solution you are looking for Billy and whilst I take your Brexit induced problem point don't think for one minute this wasn't going to happen one day Brexit or no Brexit .
The GFA whilst welcome was never going to stand the test of time .
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Then how do do deal with the massive unrest on BOTH sides of the sectarian divide?
Come on folks. Address this SERIOUSLY.
You who wanted Brexit have caused this problem that you were warned about and ignored. Now sort it out with some serious proposals, not this pie in the sky waffle.
If the majority vote for it, then they get what they want.
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Quite ironic that a little englander such as Johnson may inadvertently preside over a united Ireland
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Then how do do deal with the massive unrest on BOTH sides of the sectarian divide?
Come on folks. Address this SERIOUSLY.
You who wanted Brexit have caused this problem that you were warned about and ignored. Now sort it out with some serious proposals, not this pie in the sky waffle.
It isn't pie in the sky waffle though is it .
It's inevitable at some stage there will be a United Ireland , the current make up of NI is 48% Protestant or brought up Protestant and 45% Catholic or brought up Catholic .
The highest birth rate is amongst the Catholic community so by definition they will at some point become by population figures becone the dominant community .
Sinn Fein are getting stronger in the NI political scene .
There has to be a democratic process attached to a United Ireland becoming real .
If that vote passes and the Protestant community rise up then they have to be put down by a combination of British and Irish armed forces .
The same as anyone should be who deny democracy .
I haven't the simple solution you are looking for Billy and whilst I take your Brexit induced problem point don't think for one minute this wasn't going to happen one day Brexit or no Brexit .
The GFA whilst welcome was never going to stand the test of time .
That population change is the future. The big pile of poo that Brexit created is now.
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Then how do do deal with the massive unrest on BOTH sides of the sectarian divide?
Come on folks. Address this SERIOUSLY.
You who wanted Brexit have caused this problem that you were warned about and ignored. Now sort it out with some serious proposals, not this pie in the sky waffle.
It isn't pie in the sky waffle though is it .
It's inevitable at some stage there will be a United Ireland , the current make up of NI is 48% Protestant or brought up Protestant and 45% Catholic or brought up Catholic .
The highest birth rate is amongst the Catholic community so by definition they will at some point become by population figures becone the dominant community .
Sinn Fein are getting stronger in the NI political scene .
There has to be a democratic process attached to a United Ireland becoming real .
If that vote passes and the Protestant community rise up then they have to be put down by a combination of British and Irish armed forces .
The same as anyone should be who deny democracy .
I haven't the simple solution you are looking for Billy and whilst I take your Brexit induced problem point don't think for one minute this wasn't going to happen one day Brexit or no Brexit .
The GFA whilst welcome was never going to stand the test of time .
That population change is the future. The big pile of poo that Brexit created is now.
So your proposing we go down the same route as climate change ?
Let future generations sort it .
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Of course future generations will have to deal with this. It is an ongoing process. At some point, you'd hope that we get past the concept of national identity Uber Alles and realise that what unites humans is bigger than borders that separate them. But that is for future generations to sort out.
For now, we have a situation where one half of the population passionately identify as British and the other half passionately identifies as Irish.
Tyke. Your "solution" is abhorrent. It us the most disgusting concept of democracy. The one that says "If 50.1% of the population wants one thing, then the other 49.1% has to suck it up. At the barrel of a gun if necessary." That is how the Unionists treated the Nationalist minority in NI for half a century. I cannot believe anyone seriously proposes that as a "solution" to where we are now.
The GFA was a work of genius. It built on the blurring of boundaries that the EU had produced. And it let Nationalists have free dealing with Ireland while not in any way making the Unionists feel less British.
You lot who voted for Brexit have destroyed that. You were told that would be the result. You don't have the excuse of not realising at the time. You chose not to listen.
Own the mess that NI is now in.
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Of course future generations will have to deal with this. It is an ongoing process. At some point, you'd hope that we get past the concept of national identity Uber Alles and realise that what unites humans is bigger than borders that separate them. But that is for future generations to sort out.
For now, we have a situation where one half of the population passionately identify as British and the other half passionately identifies as Irish.
Tyke. Your "solution" is abhorrent. It us the most disgusting concept of democracy. The one that says "If 50.1% of the population wants one thing, then the other 49.1% has to suck it up. At the barrel of a gun if necessary." That is how the Unionists treated the Nationalist minority in NI for half a century. I cannot believe anyone seriously proposes that as a "solution" to where we are now.
The GFA was a work of genius. It built on the blurring of boundaries that the EU had produced. And it let Nationalists have free dealing with Ireland while not in any way making the Unionists feel less British.
You lot who voted for Brexit have destroyed that. You were told that would be the result. You don't have the excuse of not realising at the time. You chose not to listen.
Own the mess that NI is now in.
So going on your logic regarding democracy if Remain had won the referendum by 51% to 49% you'd have been happy for us given the closeness of the vote to leave the SM as compensation for the losing 49% ?
Or does this only work one way when you lose Billy ?
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We didn't vote to leave the SM. The decision to leave the SM was taken by a few people in the Tory party, after you had left them to make that decision on behalf of the entire country.
And if you don't see the difference between the consequences of remaining in or leaving the SM for people in GB, and the consequences of telling a future minority Unionist population in NI that they are joining Ireland whether they like it or not, then I suggest you aren't really taking this seriously.
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When people talk about demographic change, it occurs alongside different aspirations and social priorities.
The 2 tribes history will break down over time, and voters will become more concerned with the policy proposals that offer prospects for development.
Those who lived through the troubles are now elderly, and the old divisions will weaken with their passing.
The GFA hard wires the partition of powers between the 2 communities. As it becomes less relevant to the developing political landscape it will need to be revisited. How do you accommodate the Alliance Party into this format?
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I take it all the people posting on this topic have spent a lot of time in Northern Ireland ?
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When people talk about demographic change, it occurs alongside different aspirations and social priorities.
The 2 tribes history will break down over time, and voters will become more concerned with the policy proposals that offer prospects for development.
Those who lived through the troubles are now elderly, and the old divisions will weaken with their passing.
The GFA hard wires the partition of powers between the 2 communities. As it becomes less relevant to the developing political landscape it will need to be revisited. How do you accommodate the Alliance Party into this format?
This is a good point, i would say the public of Northern Ireland will make this meaningless in time as more none aligned parties come to the fore in the future.
The tribal sectarian politics will become something that the public will learn to leave aside when it comes to electing who they consider will be best placed to provide them with government that will enrich their lives not cast dark clouds and misery.
The future is there's to decide, let the old dogs lie.
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I saw a clip of someone in NI being interviewed this week on the situation there and his opinion of it - the answer was along the lines of:
'we are stuck between a country that doesn want us (UK) and a country that can't afford us (RoI)'
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I take it all the people posting on this topic have spent a lot of time in Northern Ireland ?
Does that matter?
I haven't spent a lot of time in 1930s Berlin but I think I have a decent understanding of who the bad guys were.
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When people talk about demographic change, it occurs alongside different aspirations and social priorities.
The 2 tribes history will break down over time, and voters will become more concerned with the policy proposals that offer prospects for development.
Those who lived through the troubles are now elderly, and the old divisions will weaken with their passing.
The GFA hard wires the partition of powers between the 2 communities. As it becomes less relevant to the developing political landscape it will need to be revisited. How do you accommodate the Alliance Party into this format?
This is a good point, i would say the public of Northern Ireland will make this meaningless in time as more none aligned parties come to the fore in the future.
The tribal sectarian politics will become something that the public will learn to leave aside when it comes to electing who they consider will be best placed to provide them with government that will enrich their lives not cast dark clouds and misery.
The future is there's to decide, let the old dogs lie.
The old dogs WERE lying. The GFA WAS doing the job of letting scars heal.
Now that's all back up in the air because of Brexit. Just like some of us predicted 6 years back.
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We didn't vote to leave the SM. The decision to leave the SM was taken by a few people in the Tory party, after you had left them to make that decision on behalf of the entire country.
And if you don't see the difference between the consequences of remaining in or leaving the SM for people in GB, and the consequences of telling a future minority Unionist population in NI that they are joining Ireland whether they like it or not, then I suggest you aren't really taking this seriously.
And on another thread same author "it's simply a fact that the biggest anti-truth peddlars are on the Right".
The irony.
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Branton
You going to substantiate that slur?
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When people talk about demographic change, it occurs alongside different aspirations and social priorities.
The 2 tribes history will break down over time, and voters will become more concerned with the policy proposals that offer prospects for development.
Those who lived through the troubles are now elderly, and the old divisions will weaken with their passing.
The GFA hard wires the partition of powers between the 2 communities. As it becomes less relevant to the developing political landscape it will need to be revisited. How do you accommodate the Alliance Party into this format?
This is a good point, i would say the public of Northern Ireland will make this meaningless in time as more none aligned parties come to the fore in the future.
The tribal sectarian politics will become something that the public will learn to leave aside when it comes to electing who they consider will be best placed to provide them with government that will enrich their lives not cast dark clouds and misery.
The future is there's to decide, let the old dogs lie.
The old dogs WERE lying. The GFA WAS doing the job of letting scars heal.
Now that's all back up in the air because of Brexit. Just like some of us predicted 6 years back.
No i don't agree with that, The EU weaponised the NI situation to cause the British the maximum disruption when attempting the exit from the EU, in effect the EU were prepared to throw the Irish and the GFA to the wall to attempt to get their preferred outcome.
Did not Barnier and his cronies also get caught on camera basically saying the same thing?
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The change in voting patterns may mean that the Alliance Party displace the DUP in the pecking order;
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-61363246
So how does the GFA address the balance of power under this scenario?
It was set out at a time when the vote was a binary choice between Unionism and Nationalism, but the trend is to a more diverse distribution of support.
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When people talk about demographic change, it occurs alongside different aspirations and social priorities.
The 2 tribes history will break down over time, and voters will become more concerned with the policy proposals that offer prospects for development.
Those who lived through the troubles are now elderly, and the old divisions will weaken with their passing.
The GFA hard wires the partition of powers between the 2 communities. As it becomes less relevant to the developing political landscape it will need to be revisited. How do you accommodate the Alliance Party into this format?
This is a good point, i would say the public of Northern Ireland will make this meaningless in time as more none aligned parties come to the fore in the future.
The tribal sectarian politics will become something that the public will learn to leave aside when it comes to electing who they consider will be best placed to provide them with government that will enrich their lives not cast dark clouds and misery.
The future is there's to decide, let the old dogs lie.
The old dogs WERE lying. The GFA WAS doing the job of letting scars heal.
Now that's all back up in the air because of Brexit. Just like some of us predicted 6 years back.
No i don't agree with that, The EU weaponised the NI situation to cause the British the maximum disruption when attempting the exit from the EU, in effect the EU were prepared to throw the Irish and the GFA to the wall to attempt to get their preferred outcome.
Did not Barnier and his cronies also get caught on camera basically saying the same thing?
Christ where to start with this. It's truly scary.
I assume you mean this video?
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1508742/michel-barnier-news-unearthed-clip-plans-isolate-ireland-northern-ireland-protocol-spt
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I don’t recall anyone talking about that in the last two or three years.
Hindsight ?
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Quite ironic that a little englander such as Johnson may inadvertently preside over a united Ireland
wouldn't united Ireland preside over itself?
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Anyone thinking johnson will do a street walk in Belfast as he did in the Ukraine?
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I hope so.....
BobG
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That population change is the future. The big pile of poo that Brexit created is now.
So your proposing we go down the same route as climate change ?
Let future generations sort it .
That analogy doesn't work at all.
What we do now effects climate change now and in the future, it's very simple. What we do in NI was already screwed up by the vote which was as immature as you can get. If this current debacle wasn't happening there would be more wiggle room, and somewhat less sectarian posturing when it comes to a vote on Irish unification in the coming decades.
The current situation is what it is. What you are suggesting is working against democracy iin NI, and creating inevitable conflict and deaths. There is no solution to what Johnson's interpretation of Brexit is. The whole Brexit vote should not have been set up without there being an NI solution in place for whichever way it went. This is not against Brexit per se, I have no problem with that, but I do have a problem with politicians being clowns as is clearly the case in the set up of the Brexit vote, all the way to the likely bloody mess Johnson created in his bid for ego fame. Although to be fair to him, along with the rest of the Brexit carnival, he ain't that bright is he.
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On the point of the Brexit vote, should the rest of the UK voted one way purely because of Northern Ireland? Its the very part of being in a union that unionists should accept isn't it? If they want to align with England, Wales, Scotland they will be a minority partner and should accept that. But it is much more complicated. I'm not sure John in Darlington should vote one way because of someone's thoughts in Derry.....
The supposed Irish see border is a workable solution with some issues but it can be resolved. I doubt the dup will accept any checks at all between UK and Northern Ireland and that is a problem but they can't be ignored.
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When people talk about demographic change, it occurs alongside different aspirations and social priorities.
The 2 tribes history will break down over time, and voters will become more concerned with the policy proposals that offer prospects for development.
Those who lived through the troubles are now elderly, and the old divisions will weaken with their passing.
The GFA hard wires the partition of powers between the 2 communities. As it becomes less relevant to the developing political landscape it will need to be revisited. How do you accommodate the Alliance Party into this format?
This is a good point, i would say the public of Northern Ireland will make this meaningless in time as more none aligned parties come to the fore in the future.
The tribal sectarian politics will become something that the public will learn to leave aside when it comes to electing who they consider will be best placed to provide them with government that will enrich their lives not cast dark clouds and misery.
The future is there's to decide, let the old dogs lie.
The old dogs WERE lying. The GFA WAS doing the job of letting scars heal.
Now that's all back up in the air because of Brexit. Just like some of us predicted 6 years back.
No i don't agree with that, The EU weaponised the NI situation to cause the British the maximum disruption when attempting the exit from the EU, in effect the EU were prepared to throw the Irish and the GFA to the wall to attempt to get their preferred outcome.
Did not Barnier and his cronies also get caught on camera basically saying the same thing?
Christ where to start with this. It's truly scary.
I assume you mean this video?
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1508742/michel-barnier-news-unearthed-clip-plans-isolate-ireland-northern-ireland-protocol-spt
DD
I assume that WAS the video you were talking about. Many Brexit supporters have commented on it showing what t**ts the EU negotiators were.
Except. It was a con. It was an editted version if an original, where Barnier was calling out how he expected the UK negotiators to use the NI issue in bad faith.
The edit deliberately made it sound as though Barnier was talking about EU negotiating policy. It seems to have done the job with you.
Do you know who edited and published that deliberate deception? Farage's Leave.EU.
They deliberately chose to lie to you. Confirming what you wanted to believe about the EU.
I get that this will hurt. It's never enjoyable to find out that you've been the mark in a sting.
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On the point of the Brexit vote, should the rest of the UK voted one way purely because of Northern Ireland? Its the very part of being in a union that unionists should accept isn't it? If they want to align with England, Wales, Scotland they will be a minority partner and should accept that. But it is much more complicated. I'm not sure John in Darlington should vote one way because of someone's thoughts in Derry.....
The supposed Irish see border is a workable solution with some issues but it can be resolved. I doubt the dup will accept any checks at all between UK and Northern Ireland and that is a problem but they can't be ignored.
The point is that responsible politicians had a duty to inform voters about the consequences of Brexit on NI. If voters then chose to play with fire on that issue, that's between them and their conscience.
What actually happened was that politicians on one side raised this. While politicians on the other side insisted it was Project Fear.
It's now clear that one side was telling the truth and the other side was lying. The absolute minimum that a functioning democracy requires is for John in Darlington to be aware that he's been lied to, and to factor that into his future decisions.
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When people talk about demographic change, it occurs alongside different aspirations and social priorities.
The 2 tribes history will break down over time, and voters will become more concerned with the policy proposals that offer prospects for development.
Those who lived through the troubles are now elderly, and the old divisions will weaken with their passing.
The GFA hard wires the partition of powers between the 2 communities. As it becomes less relevant to the developing political landscape it will need to be revisited. How do you accommodate the Alliance Party into this format?
This is a good point, i would say the public of Northern Ireland will make this meaningless in time as more none aligned parties come to the fore in the future.
The tribal sectarian politics will become something that the public will learn to leave aside when it comes to electing who they consider will be best placed to provide them with government that will enrich their lives not cast dark clouds and misery.
The future is there's to decide, let the old dogs lie.
The old dogs WERE lying. The GFA WAS doing the job of letting scars heal.
Now that's all back up in the air because of Brexit. Just like some of us predicted 6 years back.
No i don't agree with that, The EU weaponised the NI situation to cause the British the maximum disruption when attempting the exit from the EU, in effect the EU were prepared to throw the Irish and the GFA to the wall to attempt to get their preferred outcome.
Did not Barnier and his cronies also get caught on camera basically saying the same thing?
Christ where to start with this. It's truly scary.
I assume you mean this video?
https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1508742/michel-barnier-news-unearthed-clip-plans-isolate-ireland-northern-ireland-protocol-spt
DD
I assume that WAS the video you were talking about. Many Brexit supporters have commented on it showing what t**ts the EU negotiators were.
Except. It was a con. It was an editted version if an original, where Barnier was calling out how he expected the UK negotiators to use the NI issue in bad faith.
The edit deliberately made it sound as though Barnier was talking about EU negotiating policy. It seems to have done the job with you.
Do you know who edited and published that deliberate deception? Farage's Leave.EU.
They deliberately chose to lie to you. Confirming what you wanted to believe about the EU.
I get that this will hurt. It's never enjoyable to find out that you've been the mark in a sting.
No not at all, i don't stake my life on the words and deeds of politicians, regardless of the video being doctored that was never going to be the defining information that would lead me to believe that Barnier was never going to approach the negotiations in good faith, the guy was hand picked to ensure the EU tried to screw the UK to the wall, the fact that May and the remainer cabal in the commons tied our hands behind our back to enable us to get any sort of deal was the icing on the cake for this grey and morose individual.
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And this is what I mean DD.
You are certain that Barnier and the EU approached the negotiations in bad faith.
You use that video as evidence of that bad faith.
Turns out that video was a cast iron example of someone deliberately dicking you about to make you think that the EU weren't acting in good faith.
And your conclusion is not to question your opinion. It's to double down on it.
THAT is what I mean when I say this is scary.
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And this is what I mean DD.
You are certain that Barnier and the EU approached the negotiations in bad faith.
You use that video as evidence of that bad faith.
Turns out that video was a cast iron example of someone deliberately dicking you about to make you think that the EU weren't acting in good faith.
And your conclusion is not to question your opinion. It's to double down on it.
THAT is what I mean when I say this is scary.
It was apparent from the very beginning that the EU had no intention of facilitating a smooth withdrawal from their organisation.
These people made it very clear that they did not approve of the UK having a referendum. That the decision went against their wishes was something they made very clear, the fact they were in no position to bully the country into changing its mind also irked them massively. There was going to be no Greek capitulation here so they were determined to ensure we would be made to pay.
That be as it may but the future will decide how this works out for us and them.It was important enough for this country to decide it was time to make its own decisions and on how we implement them , whichever way they decide not some unimpeachable organisation.
Lets just hope you don't have to much suffering to endure in battling your lost cause.
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Anyway, i thought Keith said it was now Labour party policy to accept the decision of the referendum and get on with trying to make it work for the country, it seems he has a more pragmatic attitude then you BST, maybe he was underestimated?
Seems like the message didn't get to all the "warriors "in the field.
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And where's your evidence that the EU had no intention of facilitating a smooth withdrawal? What specific part of the negotiations can you point to?
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And where's your evidence that the EU had no intention of facilitating a smooth withdrawal? What specific part of the negotiations can you point to?
I'm quite sure you read All the papers and absorbed all the media over the two years it took to complete, a bright fella like you doesn't need me to point this out.
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I saw a clear and expected line from them all along. I didn't see any problems deliberately thrown in that weren't obviously predictable.
We ended up with us choosing to leave the CU and SM. And we have a deal that is precisely what I'd have expected it to be. One that respects the sovereignty of both sides.
Indulge me. Tell me which bits you think they f**ked us over on?
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OK, time to get personal.
Life in Northern Ireland has become more difficult since the implementation of a Brexit which entailed leaving the SM and CU – not mentioned at all as an option in the referendum. The bureaucracy involved in implementing Boris Johnson’s ‘oven ready’ deal that was touted as so great has not only limited selection on supermarket shelves as suppliers simplify their paperwork by delivering fewer choices of product but more significantly smaller suppliers of other non-food items have had to take measures to keep their businesses viable. You wouldn’t believe how often I go on amazon and because of where my IP address is I get the message ‘delivery in mainland UK only’.
I was caught out in a terrible situation. As many will know my wife died last November after a long fight against cancer which eventually affected her mobility. Years ago I contacted the main local firm about installing stairlifts, had everything measured up, had a system chosen, and the local company said a week’s notice would be enough for delivery and fitting.
In October, with her mobility beginning to wane, I contacted the company and the week timeframe was confirmed. However all the local firm’s orders are delivered from the mainland, and instead of delivering each order when it was necessary the mainland company had very recently been forced to take the measure of waiting for 3 or 4 orders before delivering them together to save on bureaucracy costs. It took 4 weeks. Thus for 3 extra weeks our life was dominated by my wife’s increasing problems going up the stairs. This resulted in a major incident 2 days before the stairs were delivered when I was stuck with her near the top and had to ring around several neighbours to help me to get her up the last two stairs. It was very embarrassing for her and she then stayed in bed until the stairlift was fitted. The stairlift changed her life and we were back to a near normal life …………. for just 2 more days. Then she suddenly did not feel like getting out of bed and she never came down the stairs again. I am left with the horrific memory of the incident, and the knowledge that but for the ‘Oven Ready Brexit deal’ we could have had 3 much better weeks to remember her last weeks by. And 2 grand spent for 2 days of a stairlift instead of for more than 3 weeks.
All this because of a continuing series of lies serving the purpose of Boris and a few conservative MPs who steadfastly refused to listen to any experts about possible problems in Northern Ireland
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This is an awful weight to carry Dutch I feel for you.
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And where's your evidence that the EU had no intention of facilitating a smooth withdrawal? What specific part of the negotiations can you point to?
I'm quite sure you read All the papers and absorbed all the media over the two years it took to complete, a bright fella like you doesn't need me to point this out.
What you don't appear to understand is the myth created and sold to the British public that we held all the cards and that we could tear up our membership and retain all or most of the benefits, which is why that infamous video that has exposed you pants down in the middle of town was produced, as part of the plan to make you and others believe that the EU are the baddies.
Both the EU and the UK had every right to fight their corner, the flaw on the UK side was from 2016 onwards we telegraphed our moves and the general public were never privy to what the end game really was.
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And where's your evidence that the EU had no intention of facilitating a smooth withdrawal? What specific part of the negotiations can you point to?
I'm quite sure you read All the papers and absorbed all the media over the two years it took to complete, a bright fella like you doesn't need me to point this out.
How about telling the rest of us?
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This is an awful weight to carry Dutch I feel for you.
Thanks Sydney. I forgot to mention that amazingly my wife remained cheerful and inspirational throughout. She deserved better.
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Just as an aside, have any of those opposed to the Protocol said where they want the UK/EU Customs Border to be if not where it is at the moment, or would that be too much to expect of them?
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Certain people on here think that’s it’s set in stone that everyone who lives in the Republic of Ireland and the Catholics who live in Northern Ireland want an united Ireland. Well I suggest those people do a little more research into the matter
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Certain people on here think that’s it’s set in stone that everyone who lives in the Republic of Ireland and the Catholics who live in Northern Ireland want an united Ireland. Well I suggest those people do a little more research into the matter
Have you got links to current polls on unification for both NI and the whole island of Ireland?
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There was a poll in 2018 in NI during the Brexit negotiations that asked people whether they would support unification with Ireland in three different scenarios. The percentage who said they would was:
1)If the UK stays in the EU - 29%
2) If there's a Withdrawal Agreement(*) - 48%
3) If there's a No Deal Brexit(+) - 55%
(*) Similar to what we actually ended up with
(+) In other words, if there's a hard border between NI and Ireland, which is what this Government and the DUP might be stumbling towards.
Since the Nationalists are still a minority in NI, that says to me that the DUP are currently in danger of forcing UNIONISTS into voting to leave the UK and unite with Ireland.
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The perils of governing by ideology.... Oh for the pragmatism of Ted Heath and Harold Wilson.
BobG
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Certain people on here think that’s it’s set in stone that everyone who lives in the Republic of Ireland and the Catholics who live in Northern Ireland want an united Ireland. Well I suggest those people do a little more research into the matter
Have you got links to current polls on unification for both NI and the whole island of Ireland?
I spend a lot of time in Northern Ireland and I know a lot of people over there, on both sides of the fence
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Can't read that post by Dutch and not respond. What a horrible story. I'm very sorry to hear that happened to you both. Its easy to forget that away from all this talk about sovereignty this and GDP that there are real people in the middle of all this.
It was brave to post that Dutch, and I hope you're holding up well.
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Can't read that post by Dutch and not respond. What a horrible story. I'm very sorry to hear that happened to you both. Its easy to forget that away from all this talk about sovereignty this and GDP that there are real people in the middle of all this.
It was brave to post that Dutch, and I hope you're holding up well.
Many thanks Macho, and others who have expressed support.
I have to say I have the enormous support of my wife's large family, many friends and good neighbours here in Bangor, and there is a great community spirit here. My wife had three years after being diagnosed as terminal, so I had time to prepare somewhat which helped. Although the pandemic meant we didn't manage to everything we wanted she was able to thoroughly enjoy the most important event - our younger daughter's twice COVID postponed wedding.
Nearly everything medical and support-wise was handled superbly over here. My post was born more of frustration of being lied to by politicians who were not prepared to engage with the blindingly obvious fact that there would be a problem in Northern Ireland and wished it away in the name of delivering any old Brexit. I just wanted to show there are real effects over here.
Once again many thanks :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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''Britain can’t be trusted on Northern Ireland protocol, says Leo Varadkar''
Surely not, this is preposterous and cannot be true! He goes on ............
''''The British government has created “distrust” among international partners by proposing to override parts of the Northern Ireland protocol, Leo Varadkar, the tanaiste, has said.
Varadkar made the comments yesterday while rejecting a proposal from Liz Truss, the foreign secretary, for unilateral Westminster legislation on the movement of goods, regulation and VAT rules.
Britain’s apparent willingness to breach a treaty under international law has raised concern and caused “puzzlement in European capitals, including here in Dublin”, the tanaiste said, and raised questions over whether Britain would honour any future deal that might be reached.
“We negotiated a withdrawal agreement with the British government, including a protocol. They’re now proposing to disapply part of that unilaterally, and that does create an atmosphere of distrust,” Varadkar said''
.. and there's more .............. and the killer ............
''“If we agree anything with them, how will we know that they will honour that agreement? And if we make any concessions, how will we know that we will get some concessions back in return? That’s usually how negotiation works. It requires a bit of give and take.”''
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/britain-cant-be-trusted-on-northern-ireland-protocol-says-leo-varadkar-ptmnvmt76
In a nutshell Varadkar is saying that the British government, distrusted by the international community cannot be relied upon to keep their word when signing up to an international agreement of their own design.
I could follow this up by adding that there will be some ''loony, half-wit do-gooders who try to condone such behaviour'' but that would obviously be beyond the pale.
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'Beyond the Pale' - very good Sydney :lol:
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I think my selection dropped in from my sub-conscience rather than deliberate choice so I cannot claim full bragging rights this time, but thanks anyway Dutch
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As long as NI is part of the UK there should be no hold ups in place in dealing with the rest of the UK.
This is causing difficulties for exporters like the problem you have had there Dutch Uncle.
I hope I’m all this you have been able to make your wife more comfortable by the way
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As long as NI is part of the UK there should be no hold ups in place in dealing with the rest of the UK.
This is causing difficulties for exporters like the problem you have had there Dutch Uncle.
I hope I’m all this you have been able to make your wife more comfortable by the way
Thanks Dub. This was all in last November. My wife's deterioration at the end was unexpectedly very rapid as the cancer reached her brain. She struggled increasingly for those 4 weeks (which should have been one) to get up the stairs, then had two good days with the stairlift, then was unable to get out of bed and passed away peacefully one week later. It was blessedly quick and pain free and at home where she wanted. Many are not so lucky.
My complaint was losing 3 of the last 4 weeks of her life purely through brexit imposed import delays, and the lies we have been told and the total refusal from 2016 onwards to listen and accept there would be any problems in Northern Ireland.
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As long as NI is part of the UK there should be no hold ups in place in dealing with the rest of the UK.
This is causing difficulties for exporters like the problem you have had there Dutch Uncle.
I hope I’m all this you have been able to make your wife more comfortable by the way
So, if there's no boundary between GB and NI, where should the boundary be between UK and EU?
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As long as NI is part of the UK there should be no hold ups in place in dealing with the rest of the UK.
This is causing difficulties for exporters like the problem you have had there Dutch Uncle.
I hope I’m all this you have been able to make your wife more comfortable by the way
So, if there's no boundary between GB and NI, where should the boundary be between UK and EU?
Three years old but somehow still relevant:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1Yv24cM2os
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ROI are EU, NI are UK.
There can be an agreement, Switzerland have managed it well enough so can UK.
Sin Fein will soon enough be the strongest political party in both NI and the ROI, let them deal with it, they’ll know what to do.
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Christ this is hard work.
Switzerland manages it by being in the Single Market and having close alignment to the Customs Union.
We rejected both of those.
So I'll say once again. Since WE decided that there should be a trade border between UK and EU, where should that be? Any Brexit supporter feel free to contribute. There's a possible Nobel Prize on offer.
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Between Ní and roi and stop pandering
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So you rip up the GFA then Ldr? Happy with that?
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Yes, stop pandering to ppl who operate outside the law
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Between Ní and roi and stop pandering
That breaks the Good Friday agreement as it creates a barrier/different rules on the island of Ireland. Which SF, the Irish government, the EU & US Congress all oppose. Thats an awful lot of enemies to be making when there is already a war on.
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Yes, stop pandering to ppl who operate outside the law
Ah well. Like the last 25, 100 and 300 years never happened, eh?
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The past is the past
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Ah, but that's precisely where you're wrong Ldr. f**k about with the GFA and the past is the future. Your glibness on this issue is rather depressing. You'd happily see us going back to a civil war in the UK. And for what?
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ROI are EU, NI are UK.
There can be an agreement, Switzerland have managed it well enough so can UK.
Sin Fein will soon enough be the strongest political party in both NI and the ROI, let them deal with it, they’ll know what to do.
Did you forget that Switzerland retain border controls?
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Ah, but that's precisely where you're wrong Ldr. f**k about with the GFA and the past is the future. Your glibness on this issue is rather depressing. You'd happily see us going back to a civil war in the UK. And for what?
Appeasment never works long term. Told you before, Cast NI adrift. Let them get on with it
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Because they are of no longer of any value, are you having a bad week Ldr?
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Because they are of no longer of any value, are you having a bad week Ldr?
Because the Island of Ireland is a territorial unit and we have no business been there in the first place. I'm sad you think that a whole country of people have no value though Syd, never expected that from you
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Because they are of no longer of any value, are you having a bad week Ldr?
Because the Island of Ireland is a territorial unit and we have no business been there in the first place. I'm sad you think that a whole country of people have no value though Syd, never expected that from you
Maybe not but we are and until they decide otherwise we are one and it is a tory or rather a johnson problem to fix, I said a while ago that this maybe his downfall, I may yet be correct.
I'll ignore your jibe, if you don't wish to converse just say so.
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Because they are of no longer of any value, are you having a bad week Ldr?
Wasn't a jibe mate, just your post read that way, apologies if I've misinterpreted it. At this stage I'd take any issue getting rid of this lot as a bonus
Because the Island of Ireland is a territorial unit and we have no business been there in the first place. I'm sad you think that a whole country of people have no value though Syd, never expected that from you
Maybe not but we are and until they decide otherwise we are one and it is a tory or rather a johnson problem to fix, I said a while ago that this maybe his downfall, I may yet be correct.
I'll ignore your jibe, if you don't wish to converse just say so.
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Ldr.
There are Unionists in NI whose families have lived there for centuries. What right do you, as a comfortable Englishman, have to tell them to get out of your country? What gives you that authority?
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Ldr.
There are Unionists in NI whose families have lived there for centuries. What right do you, as a comfortable Englishman, have to tell them to get out of your country? What gives you that authority?
Why do you think everyone has to justify their opinions to you?
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Because they are of no longer of any value, are you having a bad week Ldr?
Wasn't a jibe mate, just your post read that way, apologies if I've misinterpreted it. At this stage I'd take any issue getting rid of this lot as a bonus
Because the Island of Ireland is a territorial unit and we have no business been there in the first place. I'm sad you think that a whole country of people have no value though Syd, never expected that from you
Maybe not but we are and until they decide otherwise we are one and it is a tory or rather a johnson problem to fix, I said a while ago that this maybe his downfall, I may yet be correct.
I'll ignore your jibe, if you don't wish to converse just say so.
Accepted. We cannot do that, even johnson's lack of moral code would require his party to step in. I said a while ago this issue may be the end of him as there is no obvious solution. To cast them adrift is not possible, it would leave us with no friends except those that saw financial opportunity, we would be the pariahs of Europe.
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Because they are of no longer of any value, are you having a bad week Ldr?
Wasn't a jibe mate, just your post read that way, apologies if I've misinterpreted it. At this stage I'd take any issue getting rid of this lot as a bonus
Because the Island of Ireland is a territorial unit and we have no business been there in the first place. I'm sad you think that a whole country of people have no value though Syd, never expected that from you
Maybe not but we are and until they decide otherwise we are one and it is a tory or rather a johnson problem to fix, I said a while ago that this maybe his downfall, I may yet be correct.
I'll ignore your jibe, if you don't wish to converse just say so.
Accepted. We cannot do that, even johnson's lack of moral code would require his party to step in. I said a while ago this issue may be the end of him as there is no obvious solution. To cast them adrift is not possible, it would leave us with no friends except those that saw financial opportunity, we would be the pariahs of Europe.
I think we are getting to be that already. As a country we have a history of meddling. We need to stop that, it rarely ends well
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This may yet be the ultimate price that Britain pays for dumbest idea to date that has spewed from the tory machine, brexit.
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Ldr.
There are Unionists in NI whose families have lived there for centuries. What right do you, as a comfortable Englishman, have to tell them to get out of your country? What gives you that authority?
Why do you think everyone has to justify their opinions to you?
I don't.
Why do you think you can have opinions without having them challenged?
At the end of the day, the only person we have to justify our opinions to is ourself. Consequently, we all have a responsibility to reflect on what we believe and to welcome criticism of it.
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I’d ask the same of you
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See above.
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I replied before your edit mate
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Yep, I get that. You see my point though? Having opinions is great but you need to reflect on what their consequences are.
In this specific case, f**king about with the GFA will relight the flame under a centuries old powder keg. We (UK, NI, Ireland, EU) had devised a superb solution to this problem. And it has worked.
Now, without ever discussing or considering it, Brexit is putting all that back in jeopardy.
Maybe you think that the benefits of Brexit justify that. But don't try to evade your responsibility for renewed trouble in NI if it happens.
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See I disagree with that, the only ones with responsibility for troubles in NI are those that participated. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, not those of others.
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So Englishman Cromwell has nowt to do with then LDR?
BobG
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See I disagree with that, the only ones with responsibility for troubles in NI are those that participated. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, not those of others.
And that is where we differ.
Brexit had made it inevitable that one side or the other in NI will have their lives economically, emotionally and spiritually worsened. I think we had a moral responsibility to factor that into the debate in 2016. But we didn't because the Leave side refused to accept there was even an issue to address.
You might day that is not your responsibility. But the Troubles in NI didn't start because people in NI chose to make a problem.
The Troubles became as bad as they were because of decisions by YOUR country a) to invade and colonise Ireland 300 years ago, b) to partition Ireland 100 years ago in a way that produced an inbuilt imbalance in NI, then c) to intervene 50 years ago in a way that exacerbated the aggression.
YOUR country and mine has a major responsibility in far, medium and recent past history.
You, bring the libertarian that you are, want to do what libertarians all over the world do - shrug your shoulders and say " not my problem". Me, I think if your forefathers choose to shit in your neighbours' garden, you have a responsibility to help clear up the stink.b
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I am only responsible for my own actions, I can’t imagine the guilt you must bear if you think you have responsibility for all that came before you
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So Englishman Cromwell has nowt to do with then LDR?
BobG
Hi Bob as said before, we had no business been there in the first place, even prior to Cromwell.
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The past is the past
Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to make the same mistakes in the future
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The past is the past
Those who do not learn from the past are doomed to make the same mistakes in the future
Agreed Dutch but learning lessons from it and been held responsible for the actions of others are 2 separate things
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This may yet be the ultimate price that Britain pays for dumbest idea to date that has spewed from the tory machine, brexit.
Not entirely true, Sydney. The far left wanted Brexit too.
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This may yet be the ultimate price that Britain pays for dumbest idea to date that has spewed from the tory machine, brexit.
Not entirely true, Sydney. The far left wanted Brexit too.
Very true SS. Well done for addressing another misleading post.
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This may yet be the ultimate price that Britain pays for dumbest idea to date that has spewed from the tory machine, brexit.
Not entirely true, Sydney. The far left wanted Brexit too.
I agree that was, and still is the case to some extent. However, the problem always was how to do Brexit, and delay any voting until that was made clear. The Tories have performed a right old Laurel and Hardy epic on that score and for pure self interested reasons. Or maybe they're just a bit dim, as were the people going along with it.
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I am only responsible for my own actions, I can’t imagine the guilt you must bear if you think you have responsibility for all that came before you
With respect, I think you are confusing "guilt" and "acting like a grown up".
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“With respect”…. Yeah, right.
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I am only responsible for my own actions, I can’t imagine the guilt you must bear if you think you have responsibility for all that came before you
With respect, I think you are confusing "guilt" and "acting like a grown up".
So to use an analogy as you are so fond of, if I killed you in a car crash, my son should also bear responsibility and guilt? That is in effect what you are saying
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This may yet be the ultimate price that Britain pays for dumbest idea to date that has spewed from the tory machine, brexit.
Not entirely true, Sydney. The far left wanted Brexit too.
I agree that was, and still is the case to some extent. However, the problem always was how to do Brexit, and delay any voting until that was made clear. The Tories have performed a right old Laurel and Hardy epic on that score and for pure self interested reasons. Or maybe they're just a bit dim, as were the people going along with it.
With the greatest respect, BRR, that wasn't the point I was making. The far left were campaigning against EU membership donkeys' years ago.
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I am only responsible for my own actions, I can’t imagine the guilt you must bear if you think you have responsibility for all that came before you
With respect, I think you are confusing "guilt" and "acting like a grown up".
So to use an analogy as you are so fond of, if I killed you in a car crash, my son should also bear responsibility and guilt? That is in effect what you are saying
No. But if you killed me in a car crash, then your son decided to have a shit in my son's garden...
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So future generations aren’t responsible for the acts of past generations Just their own actions. Thanks for clarifying
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Ever thus when you argue with a libertarian. It rapidly becomes an argument on fundamentalism.
Future generations, in my opinion, have a moral responsibility to be aware of the context of how the present situation became what it is. And to factor that into their decision making. It's got f**k all to do with guilt or responsibility for the actions. It's about empathy, understanding and basic decency.
Back to your car death analogy. If you killed me in a car crash where you we culpable, I'd say your son would have a moral requirement to have a bit of understanding of my son if my son occasionally acted like a Kitson around him. Especially if your son did a shit in my son's garden.
Your opinion seems to be that your son can shit in my son's garden with impunity, and if my son gets angry about that, it's his problem.
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How can one person be so wrong as you are here with your last paragraph. If my son did shot in your sons garden he bears responsibility for his own actions. It’s very simple he doesn’t bear responsibility for mine. As for moral responsibility dont make me laugh, that’s as bad as feelings influencing law. If you feel the need to feel bad about history that’s up to you, I’m not going to tell you that you are wrong, how you live your life is nothing to do with me. I feel no such responsibility to as I had no involvement in the past.
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The current NI protocol, in of itself, doesn't jeopardise the GFA. The proposed changes to the NI protocol don't jeopardise the GFA.
All NI and mainland UK parties are in agreement that the NI protocol as it stands is not fit for purpose and needs to be renegotiated.
There must be a technical solution to improve the protocol given it is currently more onerous to export from Britain to NI than from Britain to the EU (or conversely EU to UK).*
* Given this incredible, illogical fact the Brexit negotiators have clearly messed up - ALL of them: May's government; Johnson's Government; the EU; Ireland; and the DUP given their position in the 17-19 Parliament.
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This may yet be the ultimate price that Britain pays for dumbest idea to date that has spewed from the tory machine, brexit.
Not entirely true, Sydney. The far left wanted Brexit too.
I know, someone tried to tell me it wasn't a tory idea before Steve
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How can one person be so wrong as you are here with your last paragraph. If my son did shot in your sons garden he bears responsibility for his own actions. It’s very simple he doesn’t bear responsibility for mine. As for moral responsibility dont make me laugh, that’s as bad as feelings influencing law. If you feel the need to feel bad about history that’s up to you, I’m not going to tell you that you are wrong, how you live your life is nothing to do with me. I feel no such responsibility to as I had no involvement in the past.
It's not about "feeling bad", it's about owning your heredity as well as being humanitarian, caring for others. That involves understanding the context of a situation with a view to helping make things better, as opposed to being selfish, egotistical, uncaring - much of which is the route of evil.
Moral responsibility isn't anything to do with feelings by the way. They may be related but they are distinct from one another. But, much of law is based on feelings as well as morals - also unfortunately the subjugation of the masses. And then the impimentation of the law tends to be less to do with feelings, maybe that's what you meant?