Viking Supporters Co-operative
Viking Chat => Viking Chat => Topic started by: ravenrover on May 15, 2022, 03:52:22 pm
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:)
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making some Yorkshire puds from scratch?
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making some Yorkshire puds from scratch?
You'd hope so. Frozen Yorkshire puds are the work of Satan.
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Saying it as it is. A lot won't like it on here.
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Listened to a bit of the JR interview (assuming that’s what the OP refers to). He didn’t sound well at all and kept contradicting himself. I switched off. Hope he’s okay.
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It was indeed the interview but for some reason the text I posted hasn't appeared
The points in question
If I was in charge there would be a very different situation
Rovers telegated FGR promoted what a joke
Heads would have rolled if I had been in charge last season
The Board aren't football people
Now Coppinger has been appointed they need to support him with adequate funds to bring in the right people
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Interesting on his comments which Alex Ferguson made about Doncaster Rovers being a tight club ! Clearly must have come from his boy ! JR seems a shadow of the flamboyant chairman which i remember, albeit he is 72, I do hope the old boy is ok, here’s a link if anybody is interested- https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=john+ryan+interview+doncaster+rovers+2022&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-gb&client=safari#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:2da41218,vid:9pobF81CVtY,st:0
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Good to see him again. He doesn't sound too well does he?
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Bit insulting to FGR. It's the great thing about our pyramid that clubs can move higher up the leagues.
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It was indeed the interview but for some reason the text I posted hasn't appeared
The points in question
If I was in charge there would be a very different situation
Rovers telegated FGR promoted what a joke
Heads would have rolled if I had been in charge last season
The Board aren't football people
Now Coppinger has been appointed they need to support him with adequate funds to bring in the right people
Didn't JR get these 'non-football people' in because he didn't have the financial clout?
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Probably never recovered from his relationship with Willie Mckay
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How come so many people don't like him especially on this forum? Genuinely interested to hear why.
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Good question, without him there wouldn’t be a vsc forum because there wouldn’t be a DRFC.
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When sugar daddy runs out of cash he's dead..... Long live new richer sugar daddy!
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making some Yorkshire puds from scratch?
You'd hope so. Frozen Yorkshire puds are the work of Satan.
They're better when you warm 'em up.
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Annoying that lad doing the interview cut him off when he was about to say who he'd have put in charge of Rovers instead of McSheffrey. Would've been interesting to hear.
Ryan didn’t sound well though. Sounded like he had a chest infection.
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He deserves the utmost respect, without that guy at the start we wouldn’t have a club.
He along with the other two helped to build the club up. Yes things went sour with the ‘experiment’ and the takeover bid, but I look at him and see someone who gave everything he had to our club.
He hasn’t stirred anything from what I heard, he was talking as a fan about his disappointment at how we’ve performed.
If he had, had any dealings on the football side of things, we would have done better.
He wouldn’t have appointed McSheffrey after Wellens left, I think he wouldn’t have left Wellens because he would have got the funds he needed.
As it is he probably doesn’t have the funding to be involved and probably wants to enjoy life.
We always stood a chance when he was in charge. A big void when he left, the energy left to drive the club forward.
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How come so many people don't like him especially on this forum? Genuinely interested to hear why.
Lying about the VSC to the DFP didn't do him any favours.
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Which takeover Sammy the one where we would have been owned by a hedge fund or the one where it was crowd funded ?
Love the guy for what he did so let’s just focus on that part
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How come so many people don't like him especially on this forum? Genuinely interested to hear why.
I love JR, he saved our club, just think anything he says has got to be tempered with the fact he loves the limelight! But then again that's probably another thing we're missing as a club someone who can drum up publicity like he did.
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John is a fan now and giving his views as a fan. He pulled this club up from its darkest days and we saw very good football being played from most of the managers he hired. Yes mistakes were made and he didn’t appear to have the funds to match his ambitions. But how anybody can be happy where we find our club in now is beyond me. Yes we are being told things are changing especially with back room staff. Why was that allowed to decline in the first place. We all hope that the football club will produce good football this season coming. That we can bounce back dicisively and be in the promotion battle. But it should not have been allowed to happen.
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He was brilliant for us but I struggle to listen to him nowadays as he spends more time patting himself on the back then any fan.
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Steve don’t think anyone is happy with where we are currently. Maybe a case of we stood still while clubs around embraced new methods/techniques/technology meaning in effect we went backwards.
I’m feeling much more confident that the club have acknowledged it wasn’t right and are moving forwards again
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Which takeover Sammy the one where we would have been owned by a hedge fund or the one where it was crowd funded ?
Love the guy for what he did so let’s just focus on that part
I was talking about the hedge fund one, forgot about the other one. I focus on the positive’s that he achieved, he can be very proud of what he managed to do along with the others.
It couldn’t be maintained the upward trajectory, it was built on sand. We hit our ceiling being on the verge of the championship play offs that year.
I don’t think we would be in league two if he had still been involved, league one yes possibly. He would have found a way to support the manager to keep us up with better quality players . Short sighted in my opinion that you have a man like that on the sidelines when you have a chairman that doesn’t know the job. Yes he hasn’t the funding but has the ability and experience we need to fill that role. He took all the pressure off Bramall and Watson dealing with the media, he loved it.
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You seem to be confusing being a media conduit with the role of a Chairman.
Just to clarify - I'd have JR back in an instant as a media cheerleader if that's all his role was.
However, the current owners don't want to allow him access to their money, for which I'm sure there's a good reason that fans don't know about - that's not our business. They made it very clear at the last takeover attempt that if JR bought the club they were leaving. And they know him better than us.
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No one can knock what JR did for this club, that is now part of our history.
What is sad is the sniping at the current board for whatever his reason is
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I think he's just pointing out the fact that you can't succeed nowadays without adequate financial investment.
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I think people are confusing sniping and stirring with genuine frustration and anger. He put 15 years of hard work and millions of pounds into the club before stepping down believing the club was in better hands to push forward.
Citing ill health as a reason for his rant is also a fairly low shot.
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With all due respect, as a chairman who brought us back from the dead and made us successful again to now seeing all what he built being slowly but surely ripped apart I would be pissed off too. He has the keepmoat full with his ambition and enthusiasm, now we barely reach 5-6000.
I want nothing more than for the current board and the management team to have a great season next year to bring the fans back on side but sadly there’s too much negativity around the club and far too much talk and information these days on how tight we are currently and our lack of wanting to spend any money.
He is right if we want to be successful again we need to invest, sadly the current owners are happy being self sufficient and hoping that recruitment of frees and loans will go well and that we will go back up again or it will go the opposite like it did this season.
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I think people are confusing sniping and stirring with genuine frustration and anger. He put 15 years of hard work and millions of pounds into the club before stepping down believing the club was in better hands to push forward.
Citing ill health as a reason for his rant is also a fairly low shot.
If that’s aimed my way I certainly wasn’t citing ill health as a reason for his rant. I was just pointing out that he didn’t sound at all well and I genuinely hope he’s okay. He’ll always have his place in Rovers folklore for what he did and I prefer to remember him for that than the things that happened later.
You’ve got to take bits of the interview with a pinch of salt. He’s the master at generating soundbites (those of us old enough will remember “blood on the streets”). The suggestion he’s not welcome at the stadium is complete and utter nonsense. He could attend a game whenever he wants. But the quote has got a lot of attention and caused people to draw all kinds of conclusions and you have to feel like that’s the reason he dropped it in. I doubt that part of him will ever change but we loved him for that when he was here and I agree we miss his way of generating publicity.
It’s very easy to look back at that time through rose tinted specs though. For all our success on the field there was a complacency and apathy off it. The role and input of the CEO (Dave Morris) was certainly questioned I recall, but he was JR’s man and there was no Netto brigade personally abusing him. JR himself expressed public frustration that our on field achievements didn’t always capture the imagination of the wider Doncaster public in the way you might like. He threatened to walk when the fans turned on his choice of manager (Wignall) but it’s easy to forget these things.
Football is full of ups and downs and we’ve had our fair share of ups this last 20 years. We’ll come again.
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In my opinion, for what that's worth, I think we're going to have to change the policy of self-sufficiency. We've just been relegated, and I'm not even sure if we've achieved self-sufficiency yet! If it's the case that we haven't reached it yet, how far down the league ladder will we have dropped before we do reach it?
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We were successful in the Ryan era because we spent a lot more money than we could really afford. That’s fine if you have owners that are prepared to cover the losses. It’s far from the norm at this level though.
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In my opinion, for what that's worth, I think we're going to have to change the policy of self-sufficiency. We've just been relegated, and I'm not even sure if we've achieved self-sufficiency yet! If it's the case that we haven't reached it yet, how far down the league ladder will we have dropped before we do reach it?
Let's spend money we don't have. It's worked wonders for Scunthorpe, it can for us too.
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Unfortunately, to be a successful football club (on the pitch) it is all about spending money. That's why they have rich owners.
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We were successful in the Ryan era because we spent a lot more money than we could really afford. That’s fine if you have owners that are prepared to cover the losses. It’s far from the norm at this level though.
This pretty much sums it up. He quite rightly says to be successful like we were we need to spend big. That's probably correct. What he doesn't have is a plan to do so and he couldn't sustain that himself either. Calling for more funds from the current owners is everyone's right but it's unlikely to succeed we all know that.
Again it's an interview given to someone not trained to probe and carry that out and causes unnecessary stirring and he knows that this will happen.
Unfortunately for John Ryan now, financially he is no different to many of us in that he wants the spending but doesn't have the means.
Note none of this demeans John's achievements at all. Overall he was hugely successful and has a strong legacy aswell. Its a little bit of a shame he can't become a fan, attend as many games as he likes and be positive about it all.
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In my opinion, for what that's worth, I think we're going to have to change the policy of self-sufficiency. We've just been relegated, and I'm not even sure if we've achieved self-sufficiency yet! If it's the case that we haven't reached it yet, how far down the league ladder will we have dropped before we do reach it?
Let's spend money we don't have. It's worked wonders for Scunthorpe, it can for us too.
Scunthorpe are where they are now because they've stopped spending money they don't have!
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In my opinion, for what that's worth, I think we're going to have to change the policy of self-sufficiency. We've just been relegated, and I'm not even sure if we've achieved self-sufficiency yet! If it's the case that we haven't reached it yet, how far down the league ladder will we have dropped before we do reach it?
Let's spend money we don't have. It's worked wonders for Scunthorpe, it can for us too.
Scunthorpe are where they are now because they've stopped spending money they don't have!
Scunthorpe are where they are now because they started spending money they don't have.
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Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have!
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Our owner has the money he chooses only to spend through Club Doncaster what is required to help us be self sufficient.
Like BB has said whether we have reached that level we will see next season.
It’s up to him what he does with his money not me and he will never spend like other clubs to put us in danger so why people keep saying it to make a point is wrong.
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Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have!
So, spending money you don't have doesn't get you any higher than where Scunthorpe are now. Hmm.
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I wonder how it’s going at Bournemouth and Brentford?
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Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have!
So, spending money you don't have doesn't get you any higher than where Scunthorpe are now. Hmm.
What?
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I wonder how it’s going at Bournemouth and Brentford?
Have a look just how much they've spent to get there. I think even with the player sales Brentford lost huge sums recently.
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Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have!
So, spending money you don't have doesn't get you any higher than where Scunthorpe are now. Hmm.
What?
You just said that Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have.
So spending money they don't have has put them where they are. This is not a convincing argument for Rovers to spend money they don't have too.
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I think we are on about two different things. Spending lots and getting in to debt and what I think JR means is invest in a couple of players where you are pretty certain you are going to make money.... i.e Whiteman, Sharp etc.
I think what most people wanted from the Marquis and Whiteman money was a small amount to be spent on players with potential. This is why I think the netto brigade have an issue. We replaced with loans and free transfers. The problem for me is the recruitment and if they can identify the correct players.
JR has every right to be as pissed off as we are, more so actually.
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As pissed off as we were with JR's experiment of free agents?
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Thought the interview was quite tame, actually.
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Remind me again how much Brentford will be getting next season, bfyp?
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As pissed off as we were with JR's experiment of free agents?
I could see why he did it. Did I agree.. no. It was never going to work, but he got drawn in to it. If you ask him, I he would probably admit he got it wrong. He was trying to hold on at that point I think.
I would rather have kept SOD, gone down and trusted him to bring us back. Would that have worked.... no idea.
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Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have!
So, spending money you don't have doesn't get you any higher than where Scunthorpe are now. Hmm.
What?
You just said that Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have.
So spending money they don't have has put them where they are. This is not a convincing argument for Rovers to spend money they don't have too.
I said Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have and are back where they are now because they've stopped spending money they don't have!
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Remind me again how much Brentford will be getting next season, bfyp?
I know and am related to Huddersfield Town fans that are in two minds about going up.
Premier League make weights with players that don’t care about the club just the Premier League wages and then getting toned most weeks. The gulf in Football is always getting wider.
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Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have!
So, spending money you don't have doesn't get you any higher than where Scunthorpe are now. Hmm.
What?
You just said that Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have.
So spending money they don't have has put them where they are. This is not a convincing argument for Rovers to spend money they don't have too.
I said Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have and are back where they are now because they've stopped spending money they don't have!
So Scunthorpe should have carried on spending money they don't have to avoid being where they are now! Instead of the debt they currently have dragging them down, a bigger debt would have saved them!
If only they'd have had you as their financial adviser. :silly:
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I think his little hissy fit when the others said no more money was the starting point for this and the rejection of his attempted hedge fund takeover
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When we were last in the Championship, we budgeted for a side that would hopefully just keep us up. Fair play, had it not been for a combination of a ridiculous injury list, refereeing decisions and general bad luck we'd have survived. But for how long with such a low budget?
Rovers' response to the relegation was to lower the budget, and more or less stated that the 'big spending' days were over. Next thing, the board are talking of a push for promotion back into the Championship within 5 years, albeit with a new policy of self-sufficiency.
Since then, the gulf in quality between the Championship and league one is far greater now than it was when Rovers were last there. Meanwhile, Rovers have LOWERED the budget.
How on earth can we ever get back into the Championship with the current financial policy?
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As pissed off as we were with JR's experiment of free agents?
Let's not forget Bramall and Watson were both on the board during "The Experiment". It didn't solely come from Ryan.
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There are lots of reasons why Scunny are where they are now.
Among the reasons are that they were paying less than decent wages (for L2) and so couldn’t attract decent enough players.
The owners son was appointed head of recruitment despite not having any experience of doing anything like that.
Because of the lack of decent players, their results became worse and as a result the attendances dropped.
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Just to point out that John gave the managers job to Ian Snodin, Steve Wignall and Paul Dickov and put Willie Mackay in charge of picking half the team. Wilst appointing Sean O'Driscoll he also sacked him - and Dave Penney.
John was fantastic for DRFC, and it is not exaggeration to say without him there would not be a DRFC, certainly not in the form we have seen it for the past 20 years. He was fantastic for the club, but he wasn't infallible.
Thanks for the memories John, enjoy your time as a fan and leave the running of the club to the people who run the club.
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I reckon most of us were excited about the experiment, after all, we were doomed for relegation anyway. Had it worked, TB, DW and JR would have been heroes.
As it turned out, it failed, with just one of them being the villain.
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Just to point out that John gave the managers job to Ian Snodin, Steve Wignall and Paul Dickov and put Willie Mackay in charge of picking half the team. Wilst appointing Sean O'Driscoll he also sacked him - and Dave Penney.
John was fantastic for DRFC, and it is not exaggeration to say without him there would not be a DRFC, certainly not in the form we have seen it for the past 20 years. He was fantastic for the club, but he wasn't infallible.
Thanks for the memories John, enjoy your time as a fan and leave the running of the club to the people who run the club.
So, he's not entitled to his opinion then?
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It’s not the current budget that it is the issue, it is the appalling way that it has been used.
We have / had an excellent budget to deliver very comfortable survival in League One. Somehow we managed to waste this on underperforming players with zero resale value.
Getting out of League One is a different question but 9/10 of where we are today is because our budget has been totally wasted, not because the budget itself was so bad.
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Remind me again how much Brentford will be getting next season, bfyp?
Brilliant if you are guaranteed a seat at the top table, unfortunately only 20 clubs per year are. Barnsley and Bradford didn’t too well from their time in the sun.
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Barnsley are still higher than us and Bradford are at the same level.
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As pissed off as we were with JR's experiment of free agents?
Christ Glyn, you sound fun at parties. Everything and anything you have an issue with unless it meets your belief.
Anyhow, I had two thoughts on the experiment, firstly that I was seeing players that never in a million years would anyone have said they would play for Doncaster Rovers, el Hadji diouf being one, yes he had a bad attitude but was a damn good footballer and in some cases he was a pleasure to watch. That for me I was excited to see….
However, on the flip side as was quite rightly pointed out, these players didn’t care for the club and spoilt the team morale which sadly ended up with us getting relegated and that is something that we don’t want to see at the club.
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I think people are confusing sniping and stirring with genuine frustration and anger. He put 15 years of hard work and millions of pounds into the club before stepping down believing the club was in better hands to push forward.
Citing ill health as a reason for his rant is also a fairly low shot.
I haven't seen anyone citing ill health as the reason for his 'rant'.
I've not heard his interview so wouldn't know if it's a rant or a general observation of the clubs fortunes.
We're all entitled to express our opinions about it.
Unfortunately, whenever JR is mentioned it always tends to bring out an element of sniping at the current Board and when their opinions are challenged, it seems taken as a swipe at JR.
I stuck up for JR many times when he was unfairly criticised when he was at the helm and I do the same when I see unfair criticism now.
I'm sure we all would have been happier if JR hadn't have come to the end of his wherewithal to continue with TB & DW. JR is human and just as anyone else who has to make big decisions, didn't always get it right but, he rightly had lots of credit in the bank before things went tits up.
Everyone has to be adult enough to accept the current regime were never going to act the same as JR but they deserve equal respect for their continued support of the club. It's easy to say things would have been better but real life isn't like that. JR would have also have had to make some difficult decisions. Hard financial decisions which I have no doubt, some fans wouldn't have liked either.
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Remind me again how much Brentford will be getting next season, bfyp?
Lots indeed. But if you want to be Brentford how many clubs can risk a £41.5m wage budget. Is that seriously what you'd want us to do?
To add to that Bournemouth had a wage bill of £58m that year and didn't get promoted. In the premier League their wage bill was over £100m. They probably spent not far off on wages in a week what we spend in a year. Staggering figures.
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Remind me again how much Brentford will be getting next season, bfyp?
Lots indeed. But if you want to be Brentford how many clubs can risk a £41.5m wage budget. Is that seriously what you'd want us to do?
To add to that Bournemouth had a wage bill of £58m that year and didn't get promoted. In the premier League their wage bill was over £100m. They probably spent not far off on wages in a week what we spend in a year. Staggering figures.
I’ve lost track of how much money that PL clubs get from sky these days, is it around £160m.
If it is then I think a wage bill of £41.5m isn’t too extreme.
I wouldn’t be too concerned if Rovers were in their position.
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Our owner has the money he chooses only to spend through Club Doncaster what is required to help us be self sufficient.
Like BB has said whether we have reached that level we will see next season.
It’s up to him what he does with his money not me and he will never spend like other clubs to put us in danger so why people keep saying it to make a point is wrong.
How the he'll do you know what his net wealth is tied up in and has the ready cash to put in should he choose to do so?
JR couldn't afford to carry on and be self sustaining yet. Obviously for him it wasn't sustainable yet, TB doesn't seem to get much credit for maintaining the sustainability of the club and putting in far more than JR did. .
And this baloney about Brentford and Bournemouth. Don't make me laugh. They were lucky that they were chosen by Billionaires who were prepared to gamble in a massive way considering the level of support for each club respectively. It's a complete false economy and their success has nothing to do with how many supporters they can draw through the turnstiles and isn't a real representation of their history, their struggles and the community the football club supposed to represent.
Until such time someone else comes along, the club has to continue where the money that you and I put in matters. Just as it did during JRs tenure.
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Remind me again how much Brentford will be getting next season, bfyp?
Lots indeed. But if you want to be Brentford how many clubs can risk a £41.5m wage budget. Is that seriously what you'd want us to do?
To add to that Bournemouth had a wage bill of £58m that year and didn't get promoted. In the premier League their wage bill was over £100m. They probably spent not far off on wages in a week what we spend in a year. Staggering figures.
I’ve lost track of how much money that PL clubs get from sky these days, is it around £160m.
If it is then I think a wage bill of £41.5m isn’t too extreme.
I wouldn’t be too concerned if Rovers were in their position.
Would you be worried in Derby's position to name but one?:
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Remind me again how much Brentford will be getting next season, bfyp?
Lots indeed. But if you want to be Brentford how many clubs can risk a £41.5m wage budget. Is that seriously what you'd want us to do?
To add to that Bournemouth had a wage bill of £58m that year and didn't get promoted. In the premier League their wage bill was over £100m. They probably spent not far off on wages in a week what we spend in a year. Staggering figures.
I’ve lost track of how much money that PL clubs get from sky these days, is it around £160m.
If it is then I think a wage bill of £41.5m isn’t too extreme.
I wouldn’t be too concerned if Rovers were in their position.
All well and good but say that takes 3 years to gain promotion. You've a £25-30m a year cash gap to bridge. Assume 4-5% interest on that debt adds another £1.5m ish. Over 3 seasons that's £100m in cash and that's assuming break even on transfer fees. Even then you may not make it (these numbers not far off what Sheffield Wednesday were relegated with).
So to have a go, do you know anyone with a spare £100m+ to gamble?
You're also not getting that money back ever, promotion is fine but as In Bournemouth's place that £100m needs to be spent to even have a sniff.
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Remind me again how much Brentford will be getting next season, bfyp?
Lots indeed. But if you want to be Brentford how many clubs can risk a £41.5m wage budget. Is that seriously what you'd want us to do?
To add to that Bournemouth had a wage bill of £58m that year and didn't get promoted. In the premier League their wage bill was over £100m. They probably spent not far off on wages in a week what we spend in a year. Staggering figures.
I’ve lost track of how much money that PL clubs get from sky these days, is it around £160m.
If it is then I think a wage bill of £41.5m isn’t too extreme.
I wouldn’t be too concerned if Rovers were in their position.
Would you be worried in Derby's position to name but one?:
Baz we won’t that’s the point I’m making our owner will not risk spending that money and that’s his choice but using teams like Derby to make a point is wrong we would never be in that position with the current owner.
My concern is not all based round money. But our Chairman says we will bounce back decisively now is that based on his knowledge of the transfer market and funds required or is he relying on GMC and Copps to bring in players that will get us back to league one with the funds we have left after the 16+ players that are already contracted. I’m not sure I have the confidence that we can do that. We will see the level of player we bring in. But saying we will overspend that will definitely won’t happen.
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As pissed off as we were with JR's experiment of free agents?
Let's not forget Bramall and Watson were both on the board during "The Experiment". It didn't solely come from Ryan.
But everybody says they ain't 'football men' so it couldn't possibly have come from them, could it?
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As pissed off as we were with JR's experiment of free agents?
Let's not forget Bramall and Watson were both on the board during "The Experiment". It didn't solely come from Ryan.
But everybody says they ain't 'football men' so it couldn't possibly have come from them, could it?
Don't think that was levelled at Watson. Plus I think you know that statement is nonsense.
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I might be wrong, but didnt Watson and Bramall both step back from the board during that period.
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Genuine question. How many teams are below Rovers in the league ladder, or have gone bust as a result of overspending compared to how many teams are below us, or have gone bust as a result of underspending?
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As pissed off as we were with JR's experiment of free agents?
Let's not forget Bramall and Watson were both on the board during "The Experiment". It didn't solely come from Ryan.
But everybody says they ain't 'football men' so it couldn't possibly have come from them, could it?
Don't think that was levelled at Watson. Plus I think you know that statement is nonsense.
Dick Watson was Rovers through and through.
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He’s fundamentally right. You have to invest in the squad to be successful. That’s the bottom line really. It’s something we’ve failed to do in recent seasons. For example, everyone knew we needed a decent striker before the start of last season - it was even more obvious in January. We just never acted and subsequently find ourselves in league 2.
Still obviously carries a lot of passion for the club and I can understand his frustration when he sees the hard work being slowly ebbed away, largely due to some very poor decision making
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I might be wrong, but didnt Watson and Bramall both step back from the board during that period.
Not until a few months after the experiment had already been started.
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Time's not kind is it. That's hard to watch. I hope he's not as ill as he appears.
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Anybody who is old enough to remember the seventies will recall the club constantly selling their best players and replacing them with mediocrity. The club has started to reflect that model in recent times and the next twelve months will confirm one way or the other if that is the path it’s happy to tread.
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I might be wrong, but didnt Watson and Bramall both step back from the board during that period.
They did. The Experiment was supposed to bring us top notch players at knockdown cost. What we actually got was mostly a crock of uncommitted shite with the wage bill going up 50%.
My guess was, when they realised where things were heading financially, Bramall and Watson told Ryan it was his problem. That's just an educated guess. I'd have loved to have been a fly on the wall at board meetings around that time.
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Just to point out that John gave the managers job to Ian Snodin, Steve Wignall and Paul Dickov and put Willie Mackay in charge of picking half the team. Wilst appointing Sean O'Driscoll he also sacked him - and Dave Penney.
John was fantastic for DRFC, and it is not exaggeration to say without him there would not be a DRFC, certainly not in the form we have seen it for the past 20 years. He was fantastic for the club, but he wasn't infallible.
Thanks for the memories John, enjoy your time as a fan and leave the running of the club to the people who run the club.
So, he's not entitled to his opinion then?
If memory serves me correctly he was never than keen on people outside the club telling him how to run it.
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As pissed off as we were with JR's experiment of free agents?
Christ Glyn, you sound fun at parties. Everything and anything you have an issue with unless it meets your belief.
Anyhow, I had two thoughts on the experiment, firstly that I was seeing players that never in a million years would anyone have said they would play for Doncaster Rovers, el Hadji diouf being one, yes he had a bad attitude but was a damn good footballer and in some cases he was a pleasure to watch. That for me I was excited to see….
However, on the flip side as was quite rightly pointed out, these players didn’t care for the club and spoilt the team morale which sadly ended up with us getting relegated and that is something that we don’t want to see at the club.
Were you watching the same experiment I was? El Hadji Diouf was the only one of them who DIDN'T have a bad attitude.
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Just to point out that John gave the managers job to Ian Snodin, Steve Wignall and Paul Dickov and put Willie Mackay in charge of picking half the team. Wilst appointing Sean O'Driscoll he also sacked him - and Dave Penney.
John was fantastic for DRFC, and it is not exaggeration to say without him there would not be a DRFC, certainly not in the form we have seen it for the past 20 years. He was fantastic for the club, but he wasn't infallible.
Thanks for the memories John, enjoy your time as a fan and leave the running of the club to the people who run the club.
So, he's not entitled to his opinion then?
If memory serves me correctly he was never than keen on people outside the club telling him how to run it.
Are you suggesting that he told TB how to run the club after he left?
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Remind me again how much Brentford will be getting next season, bfyp?
Lots indeed. But if you want to be Brentford how many clubs can risk a £41.5m wage budget. Is that seriously what you'd want us to do?
To add to that Bournemouth had a wage bill of £58m that year and didn't get promoted. In the premier League their wage bill was over £100m. They probably spent not far off on wages in a week what we spend in a year. Staggering figures.
I’ve lost track of how much money that PL clubs get from sky these days, is it around £160m.
If it is then I think a wage bill of £41.5m isn’t too extreme.
I wouldn’t be too concerned if Rovers were in their position.
Would you be worried in Derby's position to name but one?:
Baz we won’t that’s the point I’m making our owner will not risk spending that money and that’s his choice but using teams like Derby to make a point is wrong we would never be in that position with the current owner.
My concern is not all based round money. But our Chairman says we will bounce back decisively now is that based on his knowledge of the transfer market and funds required or is he relying on GMC and Copps to bring in players that will get us back to league one with the funds we have left after the 16+ players that are already contracted. I’m not sure I have the confidence that we can do that. We will see the level of player we bring in. But saying we will overspend that will definitely won’t happen.
Appreciate that Steve, my reference to Derby was in response to hounds about wages v PL income etc.
The trouble is, football fans rarely know how sustainable their clubs are until it all comes crashing down.
Understandable with our relegation that fans will have limited confidence we will bounce straight back.
It will take a number of positive steps to rebuild that confidence.
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He was brilliant for us but I struggle to listen to him nowadays as he spends more time patting himself on the back then any fan.
Unfortunately, thats very true.
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DBR, with all due respect, you’re missing the point I was trying to make. In the same way you don’t like references to Brentford, I don’t like references to Scunny, Bury, etc. because it suits whatever agendas people want to push.
My overriding concern though, is, if we’re a well run Club and everything is ticketyboo, why are we in such a mess? Maybe we will get back on track, who knows!
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Just to point out that John gave the managers job to Ian Snodin, Steve Wignall and Paul Dickov and put Willie Mackay in charge of picking half the team. Wilst appointing Sean O'Driscoll he also sacked him - and Dave Penney.
John was fantastic for DRFC, and it is not exaggeration to say without him there would not be a DRFC, certainly not in the form we have seen it for the past 20 years. He was fantastic for the club, but he wasn't infallible.
Thanks for the memories John, enjoy your time as a fan and leave the running of the club to the people who run the club.
So, he's not entitled to his opinion then?
If memory serves me correctly he was never than keen on people outside the club telling him how to run it.
Are you suggesting that he told TB how to run the club after he left?
No, I am answering your question about his entitlement to an opinion. Why do you think this refers to TB?
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Who does it refer to then?
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I would have thought it was fairly clear 'he was never keen on people outside the club telling him how to run it' were err, the people outsside the club who were criticising him and his appointments/actions during his running the club.
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Can all of the ones who have a bee in their bonnet for years just let it drop now. Every time his names mentioned the digs from the past start. Move on boys have a good summer ride you bikes, read book and let see what happens in July.
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Remind me again how much Brentford will be getting next season, bfyp?
Lots indeed. But if you want to be Brentford how many clubs can risk a £41.5m wage budget. Is that seriously what you'd want us to do?
To add to that Bournemouth had a wage bill of £58m that year and didn't get promoted. In the premier League their wage bill was over £100m. They probably spent not far off on wages in a week what we spend in a year. Staggering figures.
I’ve lost track of how much money that PL clubs get from sky these days, is it around £160m.
If it is then I think a wage bill of £41.5m isn’t too extreme.
I wouldn’t be too concerned if Rovers were in their position.
Would you be worried in Derby's position to name but one?:
Yes of course, but I was talking about being in Brentford’s position in the PL.
Anything beyond that wasn’t mentioned.
Obviously Derby have gone way beyond where Brentford are with their wage bill.
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I would have thought it was fairly clear 'he was never keen on people outside the club telling him how to run it' were err, the people outsside the club who were criticising him and his appointments/actions during his running the club.
But what's that got to do with this interview?
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Remind me again how much Brentford will be getting next season, bfyp?
Lots indeed. But if you want to be Brentford how many clubs can risk a £41.5m wage budget. Is that seriously what you'd want us to do?
To add to that Bournemouth had a wage bill of £58m that year and didn't get promoted. In the premier League their wage bill was over £100m. They probably spent not far off on wages in a week what we spend in a year. Staggering figures.
I’ve lost track of how much money that PL clubs get from sky these days, is it around £160m.
If it is then I think a wage bill of £41.5m isn’t too extreme.
I wouldn’t be too concerned if Rovers were in their position.
All well and good but say that takes 3 years to gain promotion. You've a £25-30m a year cash gap to bridge. Assume 4-5% interest on that debt adds another £1.5m ish. Over 3 seasons that's £100m in cash and that's assuming break even on transfer fees. Even then you may not make it (these numbers not far off what Sheffield Wednesday were relegated with).
So to have a go, do you know anyone with a spare £100m+ to gamble?
You're also not getting that money back ever, promotion is fine but as In Bournemouth's place that £100m needs to be spent to even have a sniff.
Pud, you are talking about trying to get into the PL.
I was commenting on what someone had written about Brentford’s position in the PL right now, with a wage bill of £41.5m.
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DBR, with all due respect, you’re missing the point I was trying to make. In the same way you don’t like references to Brentford, I don’t like references to Scunny, Bury, etc. because it suits whatever agendas people want to push.
My overriding concern though, is, if we’re a well run Club and everything is ticketyboo, why are we in such a mess? Maybe we will get back on track, who knows!
Quite clearly everything isnt/ wasn't ticketyboo and hopefully some of those issues are being addressed. Both managers were crippled by long term injuries to key players too.
My overriding concern as to why things have gone badly, is due to the changes of manager and support personnel (coaches/talent ID etc) . How can we hope to be successful if we're constantly changing regimes who bring different ideas about recruitment etc. It's all too short term.
Whilst some of the changes may have been outside our control, we desperately need some stability and a better platform. The HoF role may go quite some way to achieve that. For that reason too, I think McSheffrey should be given longer.
Brentford and Bournemouth are not models we can follow however there are other clubs who have had success and ave evolved under good management with more financial prudence.
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What i took from JRs 17 minute interview was in 17 minutes he spoke more about the playing side and showed more football nous and passion that in 7 years coming from Bramall and Blunt. I cant recall hearing them actually talk about performances on the pitch in a long time or show a detailed understanding of our strengths and weaknesses on the pitch! How refreshing to hear someone who is a fan first and foremost and who understands the game and talk openly about the playing side. The heart and soul of the club left when he did. God knows how much we miss him as a club.
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As pissed off as we were with JR's experiment of free agents?
Christ Glyn, you sound fun at parties. Everything and anything you have an issue with unless it meets your belief.
Anyhow, I had two thoughts on the experiment, firstly that I was seeing players that never in a million years would anyone have said they would play for Doncaster Rovers, el Hadji diouf being one, yes he had a bad attitude but was a damn good footballer and in some cases he was a pleasure to watch. That for me I was excited to see….
However, on the flip side as was quite rightly pointed out, these players didn’t care for the club and spoilt the team morale which sadly ended up with us getting relegated and that is something that we don’t want to see at the club.
Were you watching the same experiment I was? El Hadji Diouf was the only one of them who DIDN'T have a bad attitude.
Are you kidding. He was not liked by the other players who were not part of the experiment.
Did you go to Watford at end of December.
Diouf was captain. Started wagging his finger at players in the team circle before the game and some players simply turned away from him.
The team spirit was appalling. Diouf took every free kick we had that day including ones our keeper should have been taking.
Not saying he wasn’t a good player, yes he was very talented. Attitude well he thought he was God in that team and no one was listening.
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Remind me again how much Brentford will be getting next season, bfyp?
Lots indeed. But if you want to be Brentford how many clubs can risk a £41.5m wage budget. Is that seriously what you'd want us to do?
To add to that Bournemouth had a wage bill of £58m that year and didn't get promoted. In the premier League their wage bill was over £100m. They probably spent not far off on wages in a week what we spend in a year. Staggering figures.
I’ve lost track of how much money that PL clubs get from sky these days, is it around £160m.
If it is then I think a wage bill of £41.5m isn’t too extreme.
I wouldn’t be too concerned if Rovers were in their position.
Would you be worried in Derby's position to name but one?:
Yes of course, but I was talking about being in Brentford’s position in the PL.
Anything beyond that wasn’t mentioned.
Obviously Derby have gone way beyond where Brentford are with their wage bill.
Derby never got the Premier league money because they never made it to the promised land.
Brentford’s gamble paid off. Derby’s didn’t.
If Brentford had stayed another 2 seasons in the Championship then would their owners have been prepared to keep investing those crazy sums? If they had lost patience they would be in the same financial mess as Derby are now.
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Did he say anything about the contribution Watson and Bramall made, without them we wouldnt have made it to the championship.
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Did he say anything about the contribution Watson and Bramall made, without them we wouldnt have made it to the championship.
In the bits I listened to, as well as the scathing soundbites he also said some very complimentary things about the contributions of both Bramall and Watson. That’s what I meant about the contradictions. It was quite a hard listen and I gave up.
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I would have thought it was fairly clear 'he was never keen on people outside the club telling him how to run it' were err, the people outsside the club who were criticising him and his appointments/actions during his running the club.
But what's that got to do with this interview?
I am answering your questions. If they are not relevant to the interview why are you asking them?
I gave my opinion to the interview in my first post. It hasn't changed.
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You can’t retain a manager when it’s obvious he hasn’t got the ability, just so you’re not seen as a sacking club. That’s what people high up are paid to do, make decisions that other’s don’t want to make.
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Did he say anything about the contribution Watson and Bramall made, without them we wouldnt have made it to the championship.
In the bits I listened to, as well as the scathing soundbites he also said some very complimentary things about the contributions of both Bramall and Watson. That’s what I meant about the contradictions. It was quite a hard listen and I gave up.
I thought this also, Jonathan. Another contradiction was that of him saying he wouldn’t be welcomed at the ground for a game but later on saying he rang Terry up and advised him on who we should get as manager after RW was sacked. Surely, Terry wouldn’t take his call if he doesn’t make him feel welcomed at the ground?
Before anyone jumps down my throat about that, it’s just what I took from what he had said.
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Who said it was Terry who would make him unwelcome?
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He wouldn’t be unwelcome full stop, it’s nonsense. I expect he’d get a hero’s welcome from the overwhelming majority and rightly so for what he achieved here. But the quote generated lots of attention.
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I didn't take it as particularly contradictory. Obviously JR being JR there is a lot of "i did this" and "i did that" but to be honest, whilst some people may be more modest, there's still a lot of truth in what he says. From 1998 until TB and DW came onto the board in 2007, it was the JR show and it delivered some of our best times and joyous successes. Yes we had people like Peter Wetzel and Trevor Milton and Jim Beresford who all I believe chipped in here and there but nobody can doubt that John was the person funding our growth and success, doing the hiring and firing, selling the club to potential signings and getting in front of the media. I take no issue with him giving himself a pat on the back for that. He knew he wasn't rich enough to sustain a Championship level club, hence once it looked like this was where we could be heading, TB and DW came in to help fund those next glorious few years that followed. JR himself admitted he brought them in to fund what he clearly still saw as his football club! It's arguable from that interview that he STILL sees it as his football club which I find more touching/sentimental than I do offensive.
He does specifically acknowledge that subsequent success was founded upon "millions of pounds of Dick's money, millions of pounds of Terry's money and millions of pounds of my money". I think that's fair comment and it cuts to the heart of the message I believe he was trying to convey. Namely, that you have to invest in the playing squad. He repeats that numerous times in that interview and I believe the way John has behaved throughout is borne out of his belief in that. From pushing through the signing of Billy (financially assisted by TB and DW of course), the experiment (rightly or wrongly) and the abortive sale to Sequentia. John clearly believes that to deliver the kinds of successes the club deserves, it needs quality players on the pitch. He funded that as far as he was able with the odd six figure signing here and there. Once it went beyond that he got TB and DW in for the same reason. Then he saw the experiement as a cheap (and misguided) way to get good players into a Rovers shirt. Then he saw a hedge fund waving their cheque book about and again, he saw it as a way of having a shot at the big time. Finally we had the Louis Tomlinson charade. I think the common theme with all of it is that he knows it needs money and a lot of it to achieve success at Championship level.
In that context I don't see it as contradictory to still blame those same people on the board (and it seems TB is the primary focus of his frustrations) for the apparent decline in investment that he feels has taken place subsequently. He praises himself and the current board for past successes and investment. He is however quite rightly scathing at a lack of investment in recent years. That seems fair comment to me and entirely consistent with the JR we know.
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At the end of the Day JR is a mad keen DRFC fan. Terry Bramall unfortunately is not of that ilk.
That’s not a criticism of TB as he has put in many millions just yo keep the Club solvent.
If JR had the same wealth as TB I think we would be a solid Championship club.
I am sure he would quite willingly have invested 50 million over the last 10 years to keep us as a sustainable Championship club.
Like he said Dick Watson was a football man a massive fan of the club and without him and or JR we just don’t have that burning drive and ambition that was there when they were on the board.
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Remind me again how much Brentford will be getting next season, bfyp?
Lots indeed. But if you want to be Brentford how many clubs can risk a £41.5m wage budget. Is that seriously what you'd want us to do?
To add to that Bournemouth had a wage bill of £58m that year and didn't get promoted. In the premier League their wage bill was over £100m. They probably spent not far off on wages in a week what we spend in a year. Staggering figures.
I’ve lost track of how much money that PL clubs get from sky these days, is it around £160m.
If it is then I think a wage bill of £41.5m isn’t too extreme.
I wouldn’t be too concerned if Rovers were in their position.
Would you be worried in Derby's position to name but one?:
Yes of course, but I was talking about being in Brentford’s position in the PL.
Anything beyond that wasn’t mentioned.
Obviously Derby have gone way beyond where Brentford are with their wage bill.
Derby never got the Premier league money because they never made it to the promised land.
Brentford’s gamble paid off. Derby’s didn’t.
If Brentford had stayed another 2 seasons in the Championship then would their owners have been prepared to keep investing those crazy sums? If they had lost patience they would be in the same financial mess as Derby are now.
Camps, I am aware of all that mate but as I said, I was talking in isolation about Brentford’s wage bill in the PL compared to the amount of money they get from the tv companies.
I feel sure you will agree that it isn’t extreme.
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Like he said Dick Watson was a football man a massive fan of the club and without him and or JR we just don’t have that burning drive and ambition that was there when they were on the board.
Nail and head come to mind, Campsall. It really begs the question as to why TB doesn’t invite more investment onto the Board!
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I didn't take it as particularly contradictory. Obviously JR being JR there is a lot of "i did this" and "i did that" but to be honest, whilst some people may be more modest, there's still a lot of truth in what he says. From 1998 until TB and DW came onto the board in 2007, it was the JR show and it delivered some of our best times and joyous successes. Yes we had people like Peter Wetzel and Trevor Milton and Jim Beresford who all I believe chipped in here and there but nobody can doubt that John was the person funding our growth and success, doing the hiring and firing, selling the club to potential signings and getting in front of the media. I take no issue with him giving himself a pat on the back for that. He knew he wasn't rich enough to sustain a Championship level club, hence once it looked like this was where we could be heading, TB and DW came in to help fund those next glorious few years that followed. JR himself admitted he brought them in to fund what he clearly still saw as his football club! It's arguable from that interview that he STILL sees it as his football club which I find more touching/sentimental than I do offensive.
He does specifically acknowledge that subsequent success was founded upon "millions of pounds of Dick's money, millions of pounds of Terry's money and millions of pounds of my money". I think that's fair comment and it cuts to the heart of the message I believe he was trying to convey. Namely, that you have to invest in the playing squad. He repeats that numerous times in that interview and I believe the way John has behaved throughout is borne out of his belief in that. From pushing through the signing of Billy (financially assisted by TB and DW of course), the experiment (rightly or wrongly) and the abortive sale to Sequentia. John clearly believes that to deliver the kinds of successes the club deserves, it needs quality players on the pitch. He funded that as far as he was able with the odd six figure signing here and there. Once it went beyond that he got TB and DW in for the same reason. Then he saw the experiement as a cheap (and misguided) way to get good players into a Rovers shirt. Then he saw a hedge fund waving their cheque book about and again, he saw it as a way of having a shot at the big time. Finally we had the Louis Tomlinson charade. I think the common theme with all of it is that he knows it needs money and a lot of it to achieve success at Championship level.
In that context I don't see it as contradictory to still blame those same people on the board (and it seems TB is the primary focus of his frustrations) for the apparent decline in investment that he feels has taken place subsequently. He praises himself and the current board for past successes and investment. He is however quite rightly scathing at a lack of investment in recent years. That seems fair comment to me and entirely consistent with the JR we know.
I think that's a very fair assessment.
The only thing I would add to that is when JR resigned and stopped contributing, then I don't think it was right to assume TB and DW would automatically make up that shortfall however, Club Doncaster was the vehicle that would make up at least some of it. If memory serves, in the second full year of trading, it did just that generating in excess of £1m.
Sadly, we lost DW too so his contribution stopped however, I don't think Club Doncaster was yet generating the income to replace that lost by JR and DW combined therefore, it's understandable the playing budget was likely to be less than what it could have been.
Add to that, the Covid period then we can see why that was a challenging time financially for everyone.
If TB has continued his annual contribution no questions asked, I wouldn't expect him to triple that just to make up for JR and DW.
Hindsight is great and when looking back, we weren't too concerned when McCann got a squad together that was capable of getting to the play offs so much of the decisions about 'investing' in the squad comes from the manager at the time.
All managers, even under JRs time are tasked to work to a budget and he knows you can't spend what you simply don't have however, I would agree from recent times, it seems we haven't been as smart with the key positions down the spine of the team.
For example. It's easy to say we invested in Marquis and Whitemen however, since then we've also invested in Anderson, John, Ferjiri, Halliday, James, Taylor,, Close, Rowe, Bostock, Clayton, Griffiths etc, etc, so I'm sure the manager of the day who signed these players saw them as investments.
Define investment? I think it's fair to say, it's about the potential quality of the player irrespective whether they cost a fee or not .
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Like he said Dick Watson was a football man a massive fan of the club and without him and or JR we just don’t have that burning drive and ambition that was there when they were on the board.
Nail and head come to mind, Campsall. It really begs the question as to why TB doesn’t invite more investment onto the Board!
It's a fair question Alan however there could be a number of reasons why that hasn't happened.
1. Could be TB thinks the budgets are sufficient to get us where we want to go so it comes back to the debate how well it's been used.
2. Inviting investment. Maybe there aren't any benefactors out there willing to match TBs contribution without a return. We may not be an attractive proposition if new money can't be secured against the ground etc.
Very few money men are as philanthropic as we know many ownership models are based on huge loans secured against grounds and the owners are taking money out as their cut from the loan repayments.
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All of these very valid comments on here do raise a couple of issues with me that I'm surprised nobody really mentions much. We talk a lot of the contributions of JR, DW and TB. The "three amigos" as I believe JR referred to them in this interview. We now talk of TB shouldering the burden on his own.
My questions therefore relate to the fact that Gavin Baldwin and David Blunt each own one third shares in Club Doncaster (which in turn owns the Rovers) equal to the shareholding held by Terry Bramall. What exactly have they paid for their Shareholdings and what if any financial contribution do they make? Terry Bramall owns one third of Doncaster Rovers yet all we hear of is Terry investing. What are the other two owners contributing? How and when did they end up owning two thirds of the club?!
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Think the question is Tommy what are the shares actually worth
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Think the question is Tommy what are the shares actually worth
If they are worthless, I'd happily take them off their hands. I'd quite like play at owning a football club without putting any actual money of my own in.....
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Shocking to see how John has slowed down and time has caught up with him. He gave us so many highlights and deserves complete gratitude and kudos for building the club back from a very sorry state. He also dropped some clangers, but we all do in life don’t we.
Andrew Watson and his sister stepping away was a big blow after losing Dick.
But we still have a club to love thanks to JR, and those supporters and other board members who worked hard to resurrect everything.
Quite a story eh?
And we got to live it!
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We won't be a championship club for decades IMO. Club Doncaster doesn't put in what John and Dick put in and the gap is just widening. The revenue from DRFC is probably half it was 12-13 years ago if not more.
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Think the question is Tommy what are the shares actually worth
If they are worthless, I'd happily take them off their hands. I'd quite like play at owning a football club without putting any actual money of my own in.....
I don't think you know how football clubs are run if you just think its about owning shares.
We own over 100,000 shares in DRFC, they're worth pennies.
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Let me also correct a few people on here, there was no Sequentia takeover bid followed by the Tomlinson Ryan takeover, there was only one. This document proves that.
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Think the question is Tommy what are the shares actually worth
If they are worthless, I'd happily take them off their hands. I'd quite like play at owning a football club without putting any actual money of my own in.....
I don't think you know how football clubs are run if you just think its about owning shares.
We own over 100,000 shares in DRFC, they're worth pennies.
Thanks SM you have posted that several times so i thought it was right
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Worth adding that giving shares to employees is massively common throughout all industries so it's no shock to see one of the top man given shares for their work, usually a good incentive.
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Think the question is Tommy what are the shares actually worth
If they are worthless, I'd happily take them off their hands. I'd quite like play at owning a football club without putting any actual money of my own in.....
I don't think you know how football clubs are run if you just think its about owning shares.
We own over 100,000 shares in DRFC, they're worth pennies.
Martin,I think there is a fair chance that TommyC was speaking with tongue in cheek.
Can’t you get someone to add a TIC emoji to the options available please.
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Let me also correct a few people on here, there was no Sequentia takeover bid followed by the Tomlinson Ryan takeover, there was only one. This document proves that.
Sm what about the Crowdfunding episode, was that linked to this?
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I was being facetious yes.
Having said that, I would nevertheless still ask why you would give someone shares that are worthless?
When given to an employee as one poster has suggested they do still tend to have value as a reward or bonus or in some form of salary sacrifice arrangement. It could be in return for a job well done for example. Hopefully that isn't the case here. Either way though, they tend to have value either through being able to be sold on or through conveying some form of dividend or a right to payment on a sale of the Company.
I agree the VSCs shares in the subsidiary DRFC will be worth nothing. They probably will have little to no voting rights and most definitely won't have a right to a dividend. They're a token gesture. They represent 100k shares out of a total share capital of in excess of 33 million shares....in the subsidiary company. As you say, utterly worthless.
However I'm talking about the 96 million shares that GB and DB EACH hold in the topco (Club Doncaster) that actually owns and controls DRFC. Their respective 96 million shares each is the exact same amount of shares as held by TB.
Please could you explain to me how a football club works Silent Majority?
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Think the question is Tommy what are the shares actually worth
£35m in loans ??
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Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have!
So, spending money you don't have doesn't get you any higher than where Scunthorpe are now. Hmm.
What?
You just said that Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have.
So spending money they don't have has put them where they are. This is not a convincing argument for Rovers to spend money they don't have too.
I said Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have and are back where they are now because they've stopped spending money they don't have!
So Scunthorpe should have carried on spending money they don't have to avoid being where they are now! Instead of the debt they currently have dragging them down, a bigger debt would have saved them!
If only they'd have had you as their financial adviser. :silly:
Huddersfield are in Championship playoffs with an entire team that cost NOTHING to put together . Just good management and desire to succeed! So where does our approach better theirs . Scunthorpe are just typical shoes string club JUST like DRFC .
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Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have!
So, spending money you don't have doesn't get you any higher than where Scunthorpe are now. Hmm.
What?
You just said that Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have.
So spending money they don't have has put them where they are. This is not a convincing argument for Rovers to spend money they don't have too.
I said Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have and are back where they are now because they've stopped spending money they don't have!
So Scunthorpe should have carried on spending money they don't have to avoid being where they are now! Instead of the debt they currently have dragging them down, a bigger debt would have saved them!
If only they'd have had you as their financial adviser. :silly:
Huddersfield are in Championship playoffs with an entire team that cost NOTHING to put together . Just good management and desire to succeed! So where does our approach better theirs . Scunthorpe are just typical shoes string club JUST like DRFC .
Eh?
Do Huddersfield not pay their wages or staff?
Unless you are claiming they didn’t pay any transfer fees which sounds unlikely not least because their in-form left-back whose goals got them over the line into the playoffs (and who used to play for us, Harry Toffolo) definitely cost them a fee.
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I’m sure they’ll appreciate your support next season 1969
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Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have!
So, spending money you don't have doesn't get you any higher than where Scunthorpe are now. Hmm.
What?
You just said that Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have.
So spending money they don't have has put them where they are. This is not a convincing argument for Rovers to spend money they don't have too.
I said Scunthorpe would never have been any higher than they are now without spending money they don't have and are back where they are now because they've stopped spending money they don't have!
So Scunthorpe should have carried on spending money they don't have to avoid being where they are now! Instead of the debt they currently have dragging them down, a bigger debt would have saved them!
If only they'd have had you as their financial adviser. :silly:
Huddersfield are in Championship playoffs with an entire team that cost NOTHING to put together . Just good management and desire to succeed! So where does our approach better theirs . Scunthorpe are just typical shoes string club JUST like DRFC .
Eh?
Do Huddersfield not pay their wages or staff?
Unless you are claiming they didn’t pay any transfer fees which sounds unlikely not least because their in-form left-back whose goals got them over the line into the playoffs (and who used to play for us, Harry Toffolo) definitely cost them a fee.
Their wage bill last season was £24.6m which while reasonably modest for the Championship, is around 10x our wage bill.
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One might guess that the most likely answer to the question about the shares of Messrs Blunt and Baldwin is that they were pure gifts. They would then be in consideration of the value that TB places upon the two individuals in their company roles.
The value of the shares themselves is surely related to the worth of the businesses owned. I assume that it is unlikely the VSC would be informed if there are conditions attaching to the ownership - for example restrictions on their sale.
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Could JR have run the club sustainably and successfully in a football capacity? That’s the holy grail. I think not.
Can the current owners? I don’t think so.
Is it possible? Very much so.
For the record, I deem success as constant over performing compared to the budget available.
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Terry is not going to be involved for that much longer. The guy is 80 this year. He won’t need this hassle at his age. We’ve got to get soon to a stage where we are relatively sustainable. This gives us some stability for when he is not involved, and potentially then make us a more attractive option for external investment that might come. To get there we either have to cut outgoings or increase incomings. We have to choose one of them.
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I wonder what level sustainability puts us at? I'm not 100% clear on the extent to which owners are overspending and ploughing money in at other lower-league clubs, but given our gates and all the revenue that we supposedly generate from commercial/stadium related activities, I would hazard a guess our revenue puts our "level" at somewhere in L1 rather than L2.
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How much is TB putting into the club via club Doncaster now. The interview that GB gave I believe last September he said that the money was coming from Club Doncaster and we are not relying on money from the owner. He believed the Budget (playing ) for this season would be bigger than last season but we have been relegated so it should affect that but we have been told it will be the same.
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I was being facetious yes.
Having said that, I would nevertheless still ask why you would give someone shares that are worthless?
When given to an employee as one poster has suggested they do still tend to have value as a reward or bonus or in some form of salary sacrifice arrangement. It could be in return for a job well done for example. Hopefully that isn't the case here. Either way though, they tend to have value either through being able to be sold on or through conveying some form of dividend or a right to payment on a sale of the Company.
I agree the VSCs shares in the subsidiary DRFC will be worth nothing. They probably will have little to no voting rights and most definitely won't have a right to a dividend. They're a token gesture. They represent 100k shares out of a total share capital of in excess of 33 million shares....in the subsidiary company. As you say, utterly worthless.
However I'm talking about the 96 million shares that GB and DB EACH hold in the topco (Club Doncaster) that actually owns and controls DRFC. Their respective 96 million shares each is the exact same amount of shares as held by TB.
Please could you explain to me how a football club works Silent Majority?
Our shares are not in a subsidiary company, and that token gesture cost the VSC in excess of £100,000.
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One might guess that the most likely answer to the question about the shares of Messrs Blunt and Baldwin is that they were pure gifts. They would then be in consideration of the value that TB places upon the two individuals in their company roles.
The value of the shares themselves is surely related to the worth of the businesses owned. I assume that it is unlikely the VSC would be informed if there are conditions attaching to the ownership - for example restrictions on their sale.
Why would you assume that the VSC would not be given this information? We have an agreed MOU between both parties which essentially means the club will answer any questions that the VSC ask and we are always kept informed of what's happening behind the scenes.
FYI, DB bought into the club just like Terry and Dick did. The shuffling of the share issue in recent times was due to the Watson family moving away but gifting their shareholding and writing off any debts they were owed.
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Terry is not going to be involved for that much longer. The guy is 80 this year. He won’t need this hassle at his age. We’ve got to get soon to a stage where we are relatively sustainable. This gives us some stability for when he is not involved, and potentially then make us a more attractive option for external investment that might come. To get there we either have to cut outgoings or increase incomings. We have to choose one of them.
We're already at that point.
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Let me also correct a few people on here, there was no Sequentia takeover bid followed by the Tomlinson Ryan takeover, there was only one. This document proves that.
Sm what about the Crowdfunding episode, was that linked to this?
Yes it most certainly was.
I did say at the time that anybody who was relying on a crowdfunder to buy a football club wasn't going to get very far, despite protestations claiming that was not the case. I was proven right pretty quickly.
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Let me also correct a few people on here, there was no Sequentia takeover bid followed by the Tomlinson Ryan takeover, there was only one. This document proves that.
Sm what about the Crowdfunding episode, was that linked to this?
Yes it most certainly was.
I did say at the time that anybody who was relying on a crowdfunder to buy a football club wasn't going to get very far, despite protestations claiming that was not the case. I was proven right pretty quickly.
And that was an example of a certain person lying directly to the fans of this club.
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I'm getting the feeling that some people think that when an investor buys shares in Rovers that somehow the money goes to Rovers and not to the previous owner of the shares.
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Terry is not going to be involved for that much longer. The guy is 80 this year. He won’t need this hassle at his age. We’ve got to get soon to a stage where we are relatively sustainable. This gives us some stability for when he is not involved, and potentially then make us a more attractive option for external investment that might come. To get there we either have to cut outgoings or increase incomings. We have to choose one of them.
We're already at that point.
So TB is no longer putting funds into the club and the funds for the club are coming from Club Doncaster ???
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I'm getting the feeling that some people think that when an investor buys shares in Rovers that somehow the money goes to Rovers and not to the previous owner of the shares.
That’s when an investor buys shares. But an investor could buy the shares and also invest in the club. But at this moment neither is happening and it appears TB doesn’t want it to happen.
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Or more shares are issued which would result in the holding of the existing shareholders is diluted (a notional loss to them) and the proceeds of the new share disbursal are returned to the club.
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What is it with certain posters on here that feel that nothing negative should ever be posted about the current directors and other members of DRFC?
It seems they feel it is perfectly ok for them to be negative about a previous director and if anyone disagrees with them their reaction is always one of "Well go and support another club"
We all support our club and whilst some think they are superior to the rest of us they are most definitely NOT.
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I'm getting the feeling that some people think that when an investor buys shares in Rovers that somehow the money goes to Rovers and not to the previous owner of the shares.
That’s when an investor buys shares. But an investor could buy the shares and also invest in the club. But at this moment neither is happening and it appears TB doesn’t want it to happen.
TB has always said he'd sell to someone with Rovers best interests at heart and will take the club forward. I've reason to believe that he wouldn't also welcome partnership ownership..
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What is it with certain posters on here that feel that nothing negative should ever be posted about the current directors and other members of DRFC?
It seems they feel it is perfectly ok for them to be negative about a previous director and if anyone disagrees with them their reaction is always one of "Well go and support another club"
We all support our club and whilst some think they are superior to the rest of us they are most definitely NOT.
It's true all should be open to criticism. But the thing with the existing owners is that the negative comments on the whole are pretty harsh or unreasonable and essentially boil down to
- Why don't you invest (speculate/throw away) all your fortune in DRFC
- You should have accepted the offers (if there every were any) that promised a lot (clearly didn't pass any kind of scrutiny)
I don't feel comfortable criticising or demanding anyone spend their own money like this. I also think that a lot of people who do have a problem with them just see the kind of protests happening at other clubs and see that it's the job of the fan base to hate the owners unless they are Man City or Chelsea (under Roman) with a bottomless pit to spend.
It's become fashionable to be sack the board. We aren't winning so the owners have to go and get someone in who will spend whatever it takes until we win. If that's football your better getting a Sky and BT package and enjoying it there.
It's ok to be negative about them in a constructive way imo. So for instance i think this season has been coming and that the people employed by the owners haven't done a very good job. I also think the club made poor decisions in management for the last couple of years. They've been criticised plenty for this and not just by the people who will be negative no matter what. Pretty much everyone agrees with this. And in fairness they've tried to correct this with Copps appointment in a role that should fill the void in the clubs football management that's let the last few years kind of stagnate.
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Hypothetical question, of course, but if a statue of John Ryan had been erected at the Keepmoat around the time of its opening, who would want it pulled down now?
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Hypothetical question, of course, but if a statue of John Ryan had been erected at the Keepmoat around the time of its opening, who would want it pulled down now?
Nobody.
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Hypothetical question, of course, but if a statue of John Ryan had been erected at the Keepmoat around the time of its opening, who would want it pulled down now?
Absolutely nobody. But you could say you heard someone say it if you wanted.
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Hypothetical question, of course, but if a statue of John Ryan had been erected at the Keepmoat around the time of its opening, who would want it pulled down now?
In terms of the rescue of the club the quite rightly John should get the plaudits for that, but the Keepmoat as a project was run by Andy Liney, he was the real reason it was delivered.
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I was being facetious yes.
Having said that, I would nevertheless still ask why you would give someone shares that are worthless?
When given to an employee as one poster has suggested they do still tend to have value as a reward or bonus or in some form of salary sacrifice arrangement. It could be in return for a job well done for example. Hopefully that isn't the case here. Either way though, they tend to have value either through being able to be sold on or through conveying some form of dividend or a right to payment on a sale of the Company.
I agree the VSCs shares in the subsidiary DRFC will be worth nothing. They probably will have little to no voting rights and most definitely won't have a right to a dividend. They're a token gesture. They represent 100k shares out of a total share capital of in excess of 33 million shares....in the subsidiary company. As you say, utterly worthless.
However I'm talking about the 96 million shares that GB and DB EACH hold in the topco (Club Doncaster) that actually owns and controls DRFC. Their respective 96 million shares each is the exact same amount of shares as held by TB.
Please could you explain to me how a football club works Silent Majority?
Our shares are not in a subsidiary company, and that token gesture cost the VSC in excess of £100,000.
Three points from Silent Majority's replies:
1. Doncaster Rovers Limited owns the football club assets. Sitting above that, Club Doncaster Limited owns 98.424% of the shares in Doncaster Rovers Limited and exercises absolute control over Doncaster Rovers Limited. I would say that is indeed a subsidiary and Club Doncaster is the Holding Company. The VSC holds a shareholding equivalent to 0.32% of the issued share capital in Doncaster Rovers Limited. Doncaster Rugby League Limited is a wholly owned subsidiary of Club Doncaster. Doncaster Rovers Limited is a 98.424% owned subsidiary of Club Doncaster. Club Doncaster effectively owns and controls them both.
2. I remember the much publicised "memorandum of understanding" to which you refer. I'm sure you'll correct me if i'm wrong here but it's not legally binding though is it? If they wanted real power to attach the shares given to the VSC, they could have simply issued the VSC with one share (a "golden share" as it is sometimes called) that had certain rights of veto or enhanced decision making powers. They didn't do that. If Club Doncaster being the holders of 98.4% of the Shares in Doncaster Rovers wanted to take a certain course of action that the VSC disagreed with, what ability the VSC has to alter that? What magic rights does that 0.32% confer? I'm genuinely interested to know. I suspect the answer with be nothing. We all know that £100k of shares wont be able to be sold or monetised in any way. So what rights to they actually confer to the VSC? There are no different rights attached to the shares in issue according to Companies House however i'd presume there is a separate Shareholders Agreement is in existence that gives the VSC some teeth. Without it i struggle to see where any value or influence attaches to those 107,000 shares held by thh VSC.
3. On the one hand you strive to defenfd the value of the 107,000 (0.32% of the whole) shares held by the VSC in a subsidiary of Club Doncaster and cite the £100,000 paid. Conversely, you suggest the 96 million shares held by Gavin Baldwin and David Blunt in the holding company that has absolute control over both Doncaster Rovers Limited and Doncaster Rugby League Limited are worthless. Which is it to be?
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Terry is not going to be involved for that much longer. The guy is 80 this year. He won’t need this hassle at his age. We’ve got to get soon to a stage where we are relatively sustainable. This gives us some stability for when he is not involved, and potentially then make us a more attractive option for external investment that might come. To get there we either have to cut outgoings or increase incomings. We have to choose one of them.
We're already at that point.
So TB is no longer putting funds into the club and the funds for the club are coming from Club Doncaster ???
It's not that simple, nor as black and white as you'd like it to be.
TB has always stated that he's prepared to fund the club and to ensure it has a bright future by the club becoming sustainable during his tenure. That means if he's no longer here the club survives and can maintain its status.
So, is the club sustainable today? Yes, sort of. It could survive if TB left tomorrow. However the club would be on a bit of a knife edge and lets say a global pandemic occurred then we'd be in trouble. Or lets say we need to recruit 8 new players in the January window, then we couldn't do that. Or lets say we had a large VAT bill to pay, could we do that?
The point I'm making is that yes, Club Doncaster is capable of being sustainable today, but without TB it would be an uncomfortable and less ambitious DRFC.
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I was being facetious yes.
Having said that, I would nevertheless still ask why you would give someone shares that are worthless?
When given to an employee as one poster has suggested they do still tend to have value as a reward or bonus or in some form of salary sacrifice arrangement. It could be in return for a job well done for example. Hopefully that isn't the case here. Either way though, they tend to have value either through being able to be sold on or through conveying some form of dividend or a right to payment on a sale of the Company.
I agree the VSCs shares in the subsidiary DRFC will be worth nothing. They probably will have little to no voting rights and most definitely won't have a right to a dividend. They're a token gesture. They represent 100k shares out of a total share capital of in excess of 33 million shares....in the subsidiary company. As you say, utterly worthless.
However I'm talking about the 96 million shares that GB and DB EACH hold in the topco (Club Doncaster) that actually owns and controls DRFC. Their respective 96 million shares each is the exact same amount of shares as held by TB.
Please could you explain to me how a football club works Silent Majority?
Our shares are not in a subsidiary company, and that token gesture cost the VSC in excess of £100,000.
Three points from Silent Majority's replies:
1. Doncaster Rovers Limited owns the football club assets. Sitting above that, Club Doncaster Limited owns 98.424% of the shares in Doncaster Rovers Limited and exercises absolute control over Doncaster Rovers Limited. I would say that is indeed a subsidiary and Club Doncaster is the Holding Company. The VSC holds a shareholding equivalent to 0.32% of the issued share capital in Doncaster Rovers Limited. Doncaster Rugby League Limited is a wholly owned subsidiary of Club Doncaster. Doncaster Rovers Limited is a 98.424% owned subsidiary of Club Doncaster. Club Doncaster effectively owns and controls them both.
2. I remember the much publicised "memorandum of understanding" to which you refer. I'm sure you'll correct me if i'm wrong here but it's not legally binding though is it? If they wanted real power to attach the shares given to the VSC, they could have simply issued the VSC with one share (a "golden share" as it is sometimes called) that had certain rights of veto or enhanced decision making powers. They didn't do that. If Club Doncaster being the holders of 98.4% of the Shares in Doncaster Rovers wanted to take a certain course of action that the VSC disagreed with, what ability the VSC has to alter that? What magic rights does that 0.32% confer? I'm genuinely interested to know. I suspect the answer with be nothing. We all know that £100k of shares wont be able to be sold or monetised in any way. So what rights to they actually confer to the VSC? There are no different rights attached to the shares in issue according to Companies House however i'd presume there is a separate Shareholders Agreement is in existence that gives the VSC some teeth. Without it i struggle to see where any value or influence attaches to those 107,000 shares held by thh VSC.
3. On the one hand you strive to defenfd the value of the 107,000 (0.32% of the whole) shares held by the VSC in a subsidiary of Club Doncaster and cite the £100,000 paid. Conversely, you suggest the 96 million shares held by Gavin Baldwin and David Blunt in the holding company that has absolute control over both Doncaster Rovers Limited and Doncaster Rugby League Limited are worthless. Which is it to be?
Point 2.
No its not legally binding, but it was a serious statement of intent and one which the club has so far committed itself to and continues to do so. As regards a Golden Share, I haven't seen that in football in this country yet, but the Fan Led Review takes care of that and its one of the key recommendations. When it does happen the VSC will be the guardian of that Golden Share.
Point 3.
I'm not sure what your trying to say here as I'm not 'striving to defend' anything. You called it a a token gesture, I was just pointing out that it cost £100k or more, and at the time we handed the money over to JR it was one of the small lifelines he needed. DB also handed over a few million for his shareholding, but as we all know individual share holdings in a football club like ours are pretty much worthless.
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Terry is not going to be involved for that much longer. The guy is 80 this year. He won’t need this hassle at his age. We’ve got to get soon to a stage where we are relatively sustainable. This gives us some stability for when he is not involved, and potentially then make us a more attractive option for external investment that might come. To get there we either have to cut outgoings or increase incomings. We have to choose one of them.
We're already at that point.
So TB is no longer putting funds into the club and the funds for the club are coming from Club Doncaster ???
It's not that simple, nor as black and white as you'd like it to be.
TB has always stated that he's prepared to fund the club and to ensure it has a bright future by the club becoming sustainable during his tenure. That means if he's no longer here the club survives and can maintain its status.
So, is the club sustainable today? Yes, sort of. It could survive if TB left tomorrow. However the club would be on a bit of a knife edge and lets say a global pandemic occurred then we'd be in trouble. Or lets say we need to recruit 8 new players in the January window, then we couldn't do that. Or lets say we had a large VAT bill to pay, could we do that?
The point I'm making is that yes, Club Doncaster is capable of being sustainable today, but without TB it would be an uncomfortable and less ambitious DRFC.
I understand now Thankyou
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Terry is not going to be involved for that much longer. The guy is 80 this year. He won’t need this hassle at his age. We’ve got to get soon to a stage where we are relatively sustainable. This gives us some stability for when he is not involved, and potentially then make us a more attractive option for external investment that might come. To get there we either have to cut outgoings or increase incomings. We have to choose one of them.
We're already at that point.
So TB is no longer putting funds into the club and the funds for the club are coming from Club Doncaster ???
It's not that simple, nor as black and white as you'd like it to be.
TB has always stated that he's prepared to fund the club and to ensure it has a bright future by the club becoming sustainable during his tenure. That means if he's no longer here the club survives and can maintain its status.
So, is the club sustainable today? Yes, sort of. It could survive if TB left tomorrow. However the club would be on a bit of a knife edge and lets say a global pandemic occurred then we'd be in trouble. Or lets say we need to recruit 8 new players in the January window, then we couldn't do that. Or lets say we had a large VAT bill to pay, could we do that?
The point I'm making is that yes, Club Doncaster is capable of being sustainable today, but without TB it would be an uncomfortable and less ambitious DRFC.
I would imagine that future investors would be easier to attract due to the current position we are in financially ie "Club Doncaster model" in the event that TB is no longer involved
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Basically DRFC can live pay cheque to pay cheque without TB. Other clubs live in their overdrafts (owners charity) and when that overdraft gets cancelled they drop fast.
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It beggars belief people can not see he's setting us up for that extra investment and a secure future. Yes things have gone wrong of late but hopefully we can get back on track. I'm very impressed by new assiant manager role, Copps
Role, new coaches, new head of sports science. They know what's needed and are acting on it.
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S_M
One thing that's intrigued me and I've never pushed for an answer.
In terms of setting the budget, what streams of income are taken into account to determine the budget for the forthcoming season?
1. Projected ST sales and match ticket sales plus car parking, lottery, shirt sales etc., etc?
2. A Proportion of Club Doncaster income from non football related activities?
3. Owners contribution?
4. EFL solidarity payments etc?
Appreciate there may not be a simple answer to this one but as a guide, in percentage terms, what are the contributions of each of the above?
Or, is the budget set on projected income with the owners (TB) picking up the loss at the end of each season?
Or, is it worked out using the total wage limit as % of total turnover?
This is not a loaded question btw, but might be helpful as a guide.
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Terry is not going to be involved for that much longer. The guy is 80 this year. He won’t need this hassle at his age. We’ve got to get soon to a stage where we are relatively sustainable. This gives us some stability for when he is not involved, and potentially then make us a more attractive option for external investment that might come. To get there we either have to cut outgoings or increase incomings. We have to choose one of them.
We're already at that point.
So TB is no longer putting funds into the club and the funds for the club are coming from Club Doncaster ???
It's not that simple, nor as black and white as you'd like it to be.
TB has always stated that he's prepared to fund the club and to ensure it has a bright future by the club becoming sustainable during his tenure. That means if he's no longer here the club survives and can maintain its status.
So, is the club sustainable today? Yes, sort of. It could survive if TB left tomorrow. However the club would be on a bit of a knife edge and lets say a global pandemic occurred then we'd be in trouble. Or lets say we need to recruit 8 new players in the January window, then we couldn't do that. Or lets say we had a large VAT bill to pay, could we do that?
The point I'm making is that yes, Club Doncaster is capable of being sustainable today, but without TB it would be an uncomfortable and less ambitious DRFC.
I would imagine that future investors would be easier to attract due to the current position we are in financially ie "Club Doncaster model" in the event that TB is no longer involved
Nah, some bloke behind me says no one will ever want to buy into Club Doncaster cos they'd not want the rugby club too so we're never going to get new owners.
Then again this same bloke also said if the Dons got into the Super League the owners would turn the Keepmoat blue instead.
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All this talk of future investments all well and good but I have a feeling the club will be going down a different path.
It wouldn't surprise me if when the inevitable happens and TB pops his clogs, his family will leave the club to some sort of Community Trust which will use the income generated from Club Doncaster to fund itself.
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The purchase of shares in the club was merely a mechanism of giving funds to the club. Money raised from VSC subscriptions, the Coin Trail and various bucket collections were all channeled in that way.
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S_M
One thing that's intrigued me and I've never pushed for an answer.
In terms of setting the budget, what streams of income are taken into account to determine the budget for the forthcoming season?
1. Projected ST sales and match ticket sales plus car parking, lottery, shirt sales etc., etc?
2. A Proportion of Club Doncaster income from non football related activities?
3. Owners contribution?
4. EFL solidarity payments etc?
Appreciate there may not be a simple answer to this one but as a guide, in percentage terms, what are the contributions of each of the above?
Or, is the budget set on projected income with the owners (TB) picking up the loss at the end of each season?
Or, is it worked out using the total wage limit as % of total turnover?
This is not a loaded question btw, but might be helpful as a guide.
Hi Baz,
Well, they use all those streams but plenty of others too.
In simple terms we, as a club, have a different make up of income compared to others at our level, but essentially it breaks down into 'thirds'. Solidarity payments are about a third of our income, ticket sales another third with commercial activities making up the final third. In that respect we look more like an EPL club than an EFL club.
Its our commercial activities that separate us from other clubs around us, we're just so much better at it than others. A lot of that is because of the lease on the stadium, we can squeeze it to make more money, i.e. rental income from office space, car boot sales, concerts etc.
As for setting the budget, that's easy, take all the income, subtract the cost of the operation and what you have left is the budget.
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S_M
One thing that's intrigued me and I've never pushed for an answer.
In terms of setting the budget, what streams of income are taken into account to determine the budget for the forthcoming season?
1. Projected ST sales and match ticket sales plus car parking, lottery, shirt sales etc., etc?
2. A Proportion of Club Doncaster income from non football related activities?
3. Owners contribution?
4. EFL solidarity payments etc?
Appreciate there may not be a simple answer to this one but as a guide, in percentage terms, what are the contributions of each of the above?
Or, is the budget set on projected income with the owners (TB) picking up the loss at the end of each season?
Or, is it worked out using the total wage limit as % of total turnover?
This is not a loaded question btw, but might be helpful as a guide.
Hi Baz,
Well, they use all those streams but plenty of others too.
In simple terms we, as a club, have a different make up of income compared to others at our level, but essentially it breaks down into 'thirds'. Solidarity payments are about a third of our income, ticket sales another third with commercial activities making up the final third. In that respect we look more like an EPL club than an EFL club.
Its our commercial activities that separate us from other clubs around us, we're just so much better at it than others. A lot of that is because of the lease on the stadium, we can squeeze it to make more money, i.e. rental income from office space, car boot sales, concerts etc.
As for setting the budget, that's easy, take all the income, subtract the cost of the operation and what you have left is the budget.
Thanks S_M.
That certainly appears to indicate the club is in a healthy state and able to stand on our own two feet.
Where does the owners contribution come in?
Are they underwriting losses that may or may not accrue at the end of each financial year or a they actively contributing up front to the annual playing budget?
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S_M
One thing that's intrigued me and I've never pushed for an answer.
In terms of setting the budget, what streams of income are taken into account to determine the budget for the forthcoming season?
1. Projected ST sales and match ticket sales plus car parking, lottery, shirt sales etc., etc?
2. A Proportion of Club Doncaster income from non football related activities?
3. Owners contribution?
4. EFL solidarity payments etc?
Appreciate there may not be a simple answer to this one but as a guide, in percentage terms, what are the contributions of each of the above?
Or, is the budget set on projected income with the owners (TB) picking up the loss at the end of each season?
Or, is it worked out using the total wage limit as % of total turnover?
This is not a loaded question btw, but might be helpful as a guide.
Hi Baz,
Well, they use all those streams but plenty of others too.
In simple terms we, as a club, have a different make up of income compared to others at our level, but essentially it breaks down into 'thirds'. Solidarity payments are about a third of our income, ticket sales another third with commercial activities making up the final third. In that respect we look more like an EPL club than an EFL club.
Its our commercial activities that separate us from other clubs around us, we're just so much better at it than others. A lot of that is because of the lease on the stadium, we can squeeze it to make more money, i.e. rental income from office space, car boot sales, concerts etc.
As for setting the budget, that's easy, take all the income, subtract the cost of the operation and what you have left is the budget.
Thanks S_M.
That certainly appears to indicate the club is in a healthy state and able to stand on our own two feet.
Where does the owners contribution come in?
Are they underwriting losses that may or may not accrue at the end of each financial year or a they actively contributing up front to the annual playing budget?
I like to think of their role as like an expensive insurance policy. They're there to fill in the gaps and smooth out the bumps.
The playing budget is set early on and then individual departments are targeted to meet certain financial criteria, Shaun of course is all about ticket revenue, Jon is there for commercial revenue etc. If all goes according to plan then no upfront money is needed, but a football season can have some very unpredictable moments!
So, yes we are in a very healthy state, just about all the debt accrued during the pandemic has been paid back apart from one reasonably small commitment that is being dealt with and has been worked into this seasons budget.
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After the horror show of the last 18 months, being a good, solid and competitive League One side seems a very good place to be.
It does feel though that for us to get into the Championship again, it is either going to require an injection of cash over a few seasons, or a manager who can absolutely rinse everything and more out of a League One budget which feels top ten but lower end of that.
We appear to have a good steady state budget and finances for League One but nothing compared to maybe 6-8 sides in there now.
Noting of course we have been absolutely abject and deservedly are now in League Two, so the above is a challenge for another year, hopefully before too long.
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Could JR have run the club sustainably and successfully in a football capacity? That’s the holy grail. I think not.
Can the current owners? I don’t think so.
Is it possible? Very much so.
For the record, I deem success as constant over performing compared to the budget available.
Over performing compared to our budget .. Not so !!
We’ve had a reasonable budget but It’s not how much you spend , it’s who you spend it on . When ever we’ve paid a fee ie Ben Whiteman or just invested it’s the player John Marquis even Alfie May it’s shown a return .
An intelligent experience Manager and Board of Directors with ambition and a focus on the performance will always find away .
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Could JR have run the club sustainably and successfully in a football capacity? That’s the holy grail. I think not.
Can the current owners? I don’t think so.
Is it possible? Very much so.
For the record, I deem success as constant over performing compared to the budget available.
Over performing compared to our budget .. Not so !!
We’ve had a reasonable budget but It’s not how much you spend , it’s who you spend it on . When ever we’ve paid a fee ie Ben Whiteman or just invested it’s the player John Marquis even Alfie May it’s shown a return .
An intelligent experience Manager and Board of Directors with ambition and a focus on the performance will always find away .
Wow so at last you admit it’s not investment that’s the problem
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For a club with a support base the size of Rovers getting into the Championship is a very tough ask. Realistically it would require either a very wealthy individual with lots of ambition to bankroll the club or an individual with lots of ambition and a cunning plan. That might see the club succeed for a while and then burn.
As it is I think the club has found its level, which is somewhere between L1 & L2. Which for me is fine.
Ultimately if we want Rovers to consistently compete at a higher level, then it's going to require a consistently bigger gate. What the club really needs then is for a couple of large employers to set up around the town. A new electric vehicle gigafactory or something like that.
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Not words I ever thought I would say, but Rotherham United is probably about as good as it gets for us - a consistently strong League One side that can regularly make an appearance in the Championship.
Looking at their accounts for last season 2020/21 in the Championship - and that was a COVID disrupted season - there is a model there. That season their wage bill was £8m and their income from the central distribution (ie money received just for being in the Championship) was almost exactly the same. So they covered their wage bill with ‘free money’ before even accounting for their matchday income (zero in 2020/21 due to COVID but the previous season was £1.8m in League One) and commercial (£2m in both 2020/21 and 2019/20).
It is very unfortunate that Rovers stopped several years ago publishing similar information which nigh on every league club publishes, but given the Rotherham stadium size and similar unfashionability, I cannot believe we don’t get very similar matchday income or commercial income.
The better comparison is 2019/20 which was largely not disrupted by COVID and Rotherham were in League One like us. That season their wage bill was around £5.6m, while their central distribution was £2.6m, matchday income £1.7m and commercial income £2.2m. By comparison, that season our average gates were broadly comparable at 8,900 for Rotherham and 8,300 for us. So their wage bill (which looks significantly in excess of our wage bill for that season, I would guess) was easily covered by their income, and that is before the £2.1m they received that season from transfer income, which should be seen as a bonus.
Due to the total absence of transparency on our income and expenditure, it is very hard to see what Rovers receive and spend, but given the Rotherham books appear to show they are absolutely sustainable and have a healthy wage bill that with a good manager and model, allows them to compete at a level, that is realistic for us to aspire to.
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Rotherham are certainly punching above their weight. I think they are going through something of a purple patch and will probably struggle to maintain it for too long.
At the moment they are doing something right, no doubt.
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Is there a parachute payment from the championship to league one ?
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Is there a parachute payment from the championship to league one ?
There is Rovers , not a massive amount by any means .
Not too sure of the exact figure but it's over a million quid but less than £3m I believe .
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Rotherham don't go for too much financially when in the championship .
I know it frustrates many Millers because a couple of times they were very close to staying up .
However when they do take the drop back in to league one they continue to be very competitive .
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That’s not to say that Rotherham don’t have their problems either. Ladapo refused to sign a new deal I believe and left, presumably as he believed he could get a better deal elsewhere. Largely though I would imagine we have a very similar financial profile to Rotherham yet they are consistently better than us and clearly recruit better than us.
Without getting obsessed by this point, it is assumption being used, as several years ago Rovers stopped publishing information regarding our basic income and expenditure, which is at odds with most league clubs. A regrettable decision.
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That’s not to say that Rotherham don’t have their problems either. Ladapo refused to sign a new deal I believe and left, presumably as he believed he could get a better deal elsewhere. Largely though I would imagine we have a very similar financial profile to Rotherham yet they are consistently better than us and clearly recruit better than us.
Without getting obsessed by this point, it is assumption being used, as several years ago Rovers stopped publishing information regarding our basic income and expenditure, which is at odds with most league clubs. A regrettable decision.
I think the biggest asset they have is stability Chris .
Paul Warne is at the heart of the stability .
Tony Stewart sets the budget within the resources they have and doesn't budge one inch on it .
Both Warne and Stewart receive massive criticism when they struggle in the championship from a fair proportion of the support but not everyone by any means .
Clearly something at some stage will have to give , either they stay up in the championship for a few seasons or they don't get promoted from league one at the first attempt .
I personally wouldn't be surprised to see them stay up next season especially if they can keep Smith at the club .
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Rotherham have been getting 3000 more home fans at games this season than us doesn't sound a lot but when it's 5k v 8k it's more than 50% increase.
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Rumour has it that Tony Stewart has found himself in the same position as JR did and will be reducing his funding, might be the reason Ladapo left
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Not words I ever thought I would say, but Rotherham United is probably about as good as it gets for us - a consistently strong League One side that can regularly make an appearance in the Championship.
Looking at their accounts for last season 2020/21 in the Championship - and that was a COVID disrupted season - there is a model there. That season their wage bill was £8m and their income from the central distribution (ie money received just for being in the Championship) was almost exactly the same. So they covered their wage bill with ‘free money’ before even accounting for their matchday income (zero in 2020/21 due to COVID but the previous season was £1.8m in League One) and commercial (£2m in both 2020/21 and 2019/20).
It is very unfortunate that Rovers stopped several years ago publishing similar information which nigh on every league club publishes, but given the Rotherham stadium size and similar unfashionability, I cannot believe we don’t get very similar matchday income or commercial income.
The better comparison is 2019/20 which was largely not disrupted by COVID and Rotherham were in League One like us. That season their wage bill was around £5.6m, while their central distribution was £2.6m, matchday income £1.7m and commercial income £2.2m. By comparison, that season our average gates were broadly comparable at 8,900 for Rotherham and 8,300 for us. So their wage bill (which looks significantly in excess of our wage bill for that season, I would guess) was easily covered by their income, and that is before the £2.1m they received that season from transfer income, which should be seen as a bonus.
Due to the total absence of transparency on our income and expenditure, it is very hard to see what Rovers receive and spend, but given the Rotherham books appear to show they are absolutely sustainable and have a healthy wage bill that with a good manager and model, allows them to compete at a level, that is realistic for us to aspire to.
Yes, not too dissimilar and there was a time not too long ago when both clubs were having strong seasons before things got curtailed and what turned out to be their fortune in getting promoted, was our misfortune of missing out.
Yes, they got relegated again but having that access to the additional funding in the Championship, providing , they used it wisely, which given they've been promoted again, suggests they did, means the two clubs are not poles apart.
As said above, they've had the stability of Warne to steer them through the promotions and relegation and who knows, this time they might stay more than one season.
The majority of Rotherham fans are realistic enough to know how tough it is in the Championship and a bet they wouldn't swap their promotions.
In addition, I bet every Sunderland fan celebrated just as hard yesterday as they did winning the odd Premiership game. It's all relative.
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Rotherham Fan at work reckons they need a complete change of Squad to stay up
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Rotherham Fan at work reckons they need a complete change of Squad to stay up
And what do you think. Is that reasonable or realistic?
They may have a bit more change around as there's quite a few in their squad out of contract but, they're going to have to be smart rather than flashing much cash.