IDS wikki page..spot the truth

[South West Rover]

But of course anyone who happens to own a house that's larger than average, drives two cars, can afford holidays and speaks in a slightly plummy accent is perfectly fair game for the left wing papers who portray them as 'rich toffs' who don't give a damn anyone who is poor.  As ever, it's not about what you read but what you want to read.

Wigley...

I did not intend to sound patronising or 'sneery'. 

Different newspaper, different facts.  Who do you believe?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9964767/Iain-Duncan-Smith-I-could-live-on-53-per-week.html

Personally, I wouldn't bother with any of them.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The "left wing papers"? Plural? Care to elucidate?

[wing commander]

   Billy i've spent years reading your points on the tory's and weve clashed many times as i'm a staunch Conservative...Some of your poinhts i actually agree with...Some are nothing but drivel....Yet Labour in a few stints drive this country to the edge of poverty and you dont say a word....I was speaking to a ex Labour Mp a week ago who actually called there last term as "the greatest incompetence in modern Goverment history" and he served in it......
   Maybe if you tried some balance people would actually try and understand your points rather than assume your off Anti Tory crusading again..!!!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wing Co

Feel free to point out the things you disagree with. Then I'll explain my reasons for believing those points.

I don't get this "balance" argument. I fully appreciate that Labour is imperfect. I've made several comments on here in recent months on things where I think Labour screwed up badly.

But what it comes down to fundamentally is this. The Tories believe that smaller Government is the way forward. I don't share that belief. In not sure what you want me to do about that. Argue things that I don't believe in, in the interests of "balance". That would be hypocritical. If you want alternative viewpoints in the discussion YOU provide it. Then we can debate and discuss the consequences of our two sets of opinions.

But I'll meet you part way there. I DO believe that we have a problem with a small minority of people being prepared to live on welfare. There is no question of that. And Labour did not address that sufficiently vigorously. Partly through a Blairite obsession on concentrating on the middle classes. Partly because we have a two generation problem of the move through being a post-industrial society. And yes, partly through mistakes in the benefit system.

But that is not the issue that IDS is working to solve. He is hitting benefits for ALL people who have been hit by the Great Recession.

Consider this. Research from his own Department shows that of all the jobless 32-34 year olds who signed on for JSA in 2010/11 (they picked that group at random for the research) 70% had not been on the dole in the previous 4 years. A further 13% had only had one or two brief periods out of work. Only 6% had spent more than half of the previous 4 years in the dole.

Now, that 6% is a problem, no question. But what IDS (helped by the Press) is doing is to stigmatise ALL the benefit recipients. They are ALL being labelled scroungers and shirkers. They are all being accused of living high on the hog on benefits and being uninterested in work.

It is a lie. Pure and simple. Peddled because IDS is ideologically against the entire concept of the Welfare State. And it acts as a useful fig-leaf to cover the real scandal of the utter f**k-up that this Govt has made of our recovery from Recession.

Keynes said back in the 30s that solving Welfare and deficits issues are relatively easy things to do. You make sure that the economy is growing. Then the vast majority of the "idle scroungers" on the dole will miraculously turn into the diligent hard workers that they used to be. He was bang in right in the 30s. The 25% who festered on the dole turned into double-shift workers who produced the coal, steel and guns that win the War, once the Govt had an existential crisis to deal with and responded by using Govt spending to stimulate the economy.

The "idle scroungers" were a tiny percentage then. They are a tiny percentage now. IDS's own research confirms that. I wonder why he never refers to it?

Now. If you take issue with any of that, I'd be happy to debate it with you.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Wigley...

I did not intend to sound patronising or 'sneery'. 

And I'm sure the Daily Mail doesn't intend to imply that Philpott only killed his kids because he was claiming welfare...

[Glyn_Wigley]

Different newspaper, different facts.  Who do you believe?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9964767/Iain-Duncan-Smith-I-could-live-on-53-per-week.html

Hmm...can anyone tell me how to get these tax credits to bump up my disposable income after bills to £53? I'd love to have that much.

[The Red Baron]

The "left wing papers"? Plural? Care to elucidate?

The Guardian, The Mirror, maybe the Independent. It is nonsense to deny that certain papers take a left-wing (or left-of-centre, if you prefer) editorial stance. They'd be daft not to as they need to differentiate themselves from their competitors.

Similarly the Express, Mail and Telegraph are right-wing and at the moment you can add Murdoch's titles to that.

[The Red Baron]

I actually think welfare reform will go down in history as the No.1 missed opportunity of the Blair Government. They had a mandate and a majority to carry it through, and crucially they had benign economic conditions- where they could have used the carrot as well as the stick. Unfortunately Brown and a few others started worrying about damaging their core vote, and Blair was ultimately not prepared to put his authority on the line over it.

[Filo]

This is not welfare reform, it`s welfare destruction

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

Just out if interest, do you have any evidence that Brown's policy was driven by protection of core voters. Above and beyond this shibboleth we frequently hear from right wingers than Briwn had a decade-long policy to produce a client state stuck on welfare.

I'll give you a separate take. That Brown set up the tax credit system specifically to encourage people into work because UK businesses pay wages that are an insult, whilst the rewards to the Boardroom have exploded over the past 20 years. Since the Thatcher Revolution, we have had a long-term depression of wages at the bottom end whilst wages at the top have gone stratospheric. Tax credits were a way of redressing the balance.

You can call that pandering to the core vote if you want. I'll call it a policy that went done way to correct an obscene 30 year long imbalance. The Tories see tax credits as "welfare". They are nothing of the sort, at least, not in terms of paying for people to be idle. They are a way of making work able to pay people a decent wage when business, left to itself, would choose not to do.

The problem was that the Labour Govt didn't have the strength of will to do the other side of the equation which was to increase tax at the top end. That was a fair chunk of the reason that we ran a long-term 3% deficit through the noughties. That was a mistake. Had a 45 or 50% top rate been brought in back in 2001 or so, the public finances would have been in better shape[1], and Labour could have made a string case that the tax and tax credit system was correcting the disgusting imbalances that the "market"[2] allowed.

[1] Osborne's claim that you get higher tax receipts by lower taxes on the rich is bullshit, as has been demonstrated by numerous independent research papers.
[2] Quotation marks because there isn't a "market" at the top end. There is a self-serving bunch of fat cats awarding themselves and each other obscene pay for what is often pretty poor performance. We've had 30 years of the upper reaches if capitalism being key off the leash and the result is levels of inequality that we haven't seen since the 1920s. And Labour should be ashamed of itself that it didn't do more to tackle that.

[jucyberry]

Over the years the public have bought into the drip, drip, drip method of shaping populist opinion, it now believes there are a huge amount of 'feckless' 'lazy' 'scroungers'.. suddenly people aren't unemployed they are scroungers..

Yet many benefits are paid to people working but working for  pittance, these are also lumped into that amorphous mass of the underclass...

Watching Osbourne's little speech from the beginning yesterday was a definite eye opener. His face when talking about 'welfare' altered, the sneer became pronounced. This isn't a man wanting to do the best for every area of society, this is one that despises the poor, the weak and the vulnerable. He spent time peddling his lies, the one about single people getting £18k for instance, as one lad interviewed said, £26k? that's wrong , it's 5k more than I earn...

Yet these figures are the cap, not the reality. Perhaps a very few might get that in London, but most would be made up on the monopoly money rent..

I'm on income based ESA, contribution based runs out after a year. I get 99.71 every two weeks, I have a spare bedroom and Stacie lives at home so I have a non dependant adult living with me... for that fact alone I will be paying £120 pr month, plus 19 a month council tax..

Like Glyn I would love to know how this fool thinks he can run a home on £57 a week, when rent and council tax have been paid I have £68.36 for everything else.. electric, gas, water, commitments I had when working, washing machine tv ect..Clothes? no..Shoes? no.. outings? no... I don't drink smoke or have Sky.

If Stace wasn't with me I wouldn't survive.. that is the reality..


Oh I do have an outing on Tuesday.. I'm off to see the nice people at ATOS again..

I'd swap the anxiety, panic attacks and stress that manifests it's self in heart problems and exhaustion in an instance... I won't be made to feel ashamed that my life has taken a down turn by any one, especially some jumped up little snot of a politician sucking the bowl off of his silver spoon.

[BobG]

Well, I didn't know I am a scrounger - but I must be mustn't I? Odd though. Although my claim for contribution based JSA was made on March 1st last and I've both signed on and applied for all the jobs, appropriate and inappropriate, that I can find, as of 2338 tonight, I've heard not a peep from any bugger at either the places I've applied to (with my stonkingly good CV btw), or, the sodding Benefits people. And I have nagged them too. If I were one of the millions who don't have much, any, cash in the bank, what would I be living on now 5 weeks after I lost my job? Lazy scroungers? Try the bloody unemployment office.

BobG

[Filo]

Here we go, Gideon is blaming the welfare state as well

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/04/mick-philpott-benefits-lifestyle-questioned

[scriptman]

Here we go, Gideon is blaming the welfare state as well

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/apr/04/mick-philpott-benefits-lifestyle-questioned

This is how this vile government operate. Their PR consists mostly of the blame game and lies.  IDS, Cameron, and Osborne are nothing more than pompous bully boys. By their very nature bullies pick on the vulnerable and blame others for their shortcomings.  For the first two years this clueless rabble we have in power blamed everything on Labour. Now we are three years in, and the excuse is wearing thin, they channel their blame towards the welfare state and benefit system.

The global economic crisis would have hit the UK whoever were in government. It was brought about by the perpetual greed of financial institutions when the banks were deregulated. Let’s not forget the Tories said the deregulation didn’t go far enough.

Let’s dispel the myth that people on benefits are a lazy, workshy, sub human species….what the Tory supporting rags will have us believe anyway. Laziness is not encouraged, or discouraged, by society or political parties. Laziness is a personality trait, and these workshy folk have been around since time immemorial. It doesn’t matter who is in power, some folk just don’t want to work. Cutting their benefits will not help, they will obtain money elsewhere to support their work free lifestyle. This hideous government are championing the even more hideous Mick Philpott as a product of the benefit system. This is how low and despicable this government will go to put a point across. The truth is the benefit system is a safety net for millions of people on low income, low pay, and part time work. These people are being hit hugely whilst the wealthy enjoy tax cuts and immoral bonuses.  This government will continue to cut away until the economy shows signs of improvement. It’s the Tory way, it’s what they did the last time around and what were we left with? Places like Doncaster, Hull, Liverpool, Newcastle, on their knees. 

[jucyberry]

It's perishing cold tonight, heating up and down the country has been turned up a notch, this is a small part of one of many threads that demonstrate the cruelty being done by the government to the people of this country... this is the reality of those f**king evil Kitsons in Westminster.






Phil Marsh


Here im sat in my flat having paid my CT and BT, no heating on duvet round me trying to keep warm. can life get any lower i wonder :/

Like ·  · Unfollow Post · 5 hours ago







22 people like this..



Cheryl Guillot i know the feeling Phil

5 hours ago · Like · 2..



Phil Marsh A very lonely existence that's only going to get worse I think

5 hours ago via mobile · Like · 1..


June Skie's Mum i havent paid it cant x

5 hours ago · Like · 2..



Maria Brabiner Hope you can stay strong Phil. We have to do this to survive, and survive we must.

5 hours ago · Like · 2..


Sue Allen ...and we're all in this together....i think not Phil Marsh can you imagine any of them leaving parliament tonight going home to that????

5 hours ago · Like · 7..

Phil Marsh I will come to yours then june to keep warm lol x

5 hours ago via mobile · Like..


June Skie's Mum lol wont be very warm here mate

5 hours ago · Like..

Phil Marsh I just think its sad that at my age im forced to live like this

5 hours ago via mobile · Like · 9..



June Skie's Mum yes very sad

5 hours ago · Like..




Phil Marsh Bugger june back to my duvet then

5 hours ago via mobile · Like · 1..

Diane 'Tally' Rout u can visit here phil but u wot b any warmer lol

5 hours ago · Like · 1..



Phil Marsh Is your devet bigger than mine diane?

5 hours ago via mobile · Like..



Trevor Lloyd I still have not received a letter from housing benefit to say there is going to be a reduction. Until then I am not paying a penny!

5 hours ago · Like · 2..


Diane 'Tally' Rout mines a double

5 hours ago · Like · 1..


Phil Marsh On my way then diane lol

5 hours ago via mobile · Like..


Sharon Cooper And this is just first week of BT

4 hours ago via mobile · Like · 1



Mary Ellarby Morris if i paid my bt, ct, and water rates leaves me with £15.50, for bills, food, so wont pay, cant pay, debts will mount up , nothing new there!

4 hours ago · Edited · Like · 4..


Russell Corbett yes a power cut

4 hours ago · Like..


Russell Corbett people who can pay it why dont you just hold on to it while you get a reminder

4 hours ago · Like · 2..


Alan Turk Phil, next week write to your landlord. Tell them you promise to pay,in full, what they claim you owe(because of the unlawful Tax) when you have sufficient funds to do so. Tell them that, in the meantime, to keep your case out of Court, please accept what spare money i have, which is 50p per week!!!!!......................its gotta be worth a try.

4 hours ago · Like · 5..


Cheryl Guillot it is cruelty to the vunerable in our country ..there has got to be a law against it!!!!!

4 hours ago · Like · 4..


Gaynor 'Shorty' Rothwell pls dont pay, if ur scared of loosing your home put it in the bank or something but we need to make a point that we cant/wont pay. if everybody dont pay it will send a clear message that people cant afford to pay, if your scared to loose ur home if u have the money put away then at least if it gets really serious u can pay at the last minute but at least make a stand, as well as protesting i think this is the best way to fight it

4 hours ago · Like · 10..


Alan Turk there is a law against it. Its called the Bill of Rights of 1689..... No one can be fined or forfeited without first going to Court...Not a lot of people know that

4 hours ago · Edited · Like..


Russell Corbett its only been going 4 days whats with paying straight away

4 hours ago · Like · 4..

Suzyjo De'val go & see the CAB Phil, they may be able to help you in some way. it's well outta order. i'm not paying mine until i'm about to be evicted & even then will offer to pay the minimum amount possible.

4 hours ago · Like · 3..


 

[not on facebook]

A very good read is This topic as both reds and blues have valid points.

For the record When i left school st Peters high back in early 1980s,trying to find a job was a nitemare.

You trun  up for selection test at british Rail,gas,yeb or where ever.100s would turn up for the tests as they were held over days,and the cream from the very top were offered an apprenticeship.

Thing is you could count on one hand how many apprenticeships were Been given out.

The pits were shutting down and work up north was hard to find.

We had officers Who came into our school to Help us with job interviews.they drummed it into to me about first impressions 'you must wear a shirt and tie with slacks and shoes' look smart.

I took that all on board and ended up on a YTS.

Then i had my first chance to vote,and donny was staunch labour.i saw thr conseratives on the tv andthey all looked smart with suits shirts Blue ties and Shoes.

Then i looked at labours rag tag party to which Michael foot was the front man.fcuk me he allways looked like he Been asleep on a park bench for the nite,with more Than enough labour party members not far behind him.

So i put me X in the conseratives box.

Never vote again since that election as i came too asumption Who ever was in thr country would be in a mess one way or other.so since i never voted i Cant complain When Who ever gets in.

But what i did do some close on 20 years back When i was laid off from me job and went on dole,i up rooted and fcuked off to Oslo as the grass is greener on other side Of fence.

Ok it was hard as the english dole in norway that i got as payments was very very very LOw,but i worked Black to Get a foot hold and after 8month got a propper job with personal number and i was in the NOGGY system.

Best thing i ever did was jumping ship,but i still love blighty and is allways close to me Heart.