Corbyn doesn't sing national anthem

[Orlandokarla]

The amount of piss boiling over this is absolutely hilarious.

He's a republican, why would he sing it?

Same here. I'm an atheist and a republican. Not only will I not sing it, I won't stand up for it either.

When you respect the national anthem, you're respecting the country, its people, and those who defend it; not the current figure-head of a monarch and the mythical being mentioned in it.

Give us a national anthem that's about the nation and not about an unelected head of state and their imaginary friend and I'll respect it.

Ok, I get it now. You're one of "those". Fair enough; say no more.

By 'one of "those"' I presume you mean 'people who stick by their principles in the hope of promoting change'.

No, I don't.

With all due respect, I'm acknowledging the futility of further debate.
I could talk about good manners, common decency, and respecting others and their beliefs, but to what end?
If you want to protest the national anthem because the lyrics don't match your political and religious views, who am I to say otherwise?
Maybe one day you'll find yourself in a stadium next to a group of ex-serviceman, as I did a few weeks ago, and as you see them struggling to their feet for the nation anthem due to their artificial limbs, hands on hearts and singing at the top of their lungs, perhaps you'll feel as ashamed of yourself for your act of protest, as I was honoured to stand silently beside them.
If you don't get it, I've no hope of explaining it to you.

You go on fighting the good fight.

What about the ones who weren't there and singing?

What about the chap who came up with these quotes, would you tell him to sing up or shut up with his silly pacifist statements?

Remembrance Day (it's) just showbusiness

(the) politicians who took us to war should have been given the guns and told to settle their differences themselves, instead of organising nothing better than legalised mass murder

It’s important that we remember the war dead on both sides of the line – the Germans suffered the same as we did

I have the deepest respect for them, and their families have my sympathies.

No I wouldn't; I would reserve any comment for an appropriate occasion, or politely keep it to myself. It seems that few people these days are capable of formulating an opinion without sharing it. Patch is entitled to his opinions, and I respect that.

In fact, it was my understanding that the point of Remembrance Day was indeed to remember the dead on all sides. Am I mistaken?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Orlando

Would you bare your head to show respect for, say, the North Korean national anthem? Or that of Mao's China? Or Hitler's Germany?

This isn't academic point-scoring by the way. There's a principle to be established.

[Orlandokarla]

Orlando

Would you bare your head to show respect for, say, the North Korean national anthem? Or that of Mao's China? Or Hitler's Germany?

This isn't academic point-scoring by the way. There's a principle to be established.

No, I wouldn't.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Right. So you are prepared to make a political stand against nationalism, notwithstanding the fact that this may cause offence to those who have a different take?

[wilts rover]

Yes but you didnt keep your opinion to yourself Orlando, it's up there at the top of the page. Harry Patch developed his opinon from first hand experience and is therefore just as relevant as that used in your post. He appears to have a similar view of the pageantry now associated with Rememberance Day to Jeremy Corbyn, it's their opinion on war, or the futility of it, and commemorative services associated with conflict.

You are as well placed as me to answer your own question, how is Rememberance Day remembered in the US, do the Americans rember only US soldiers - or do services also remember their enemies too?



 

[Orlandokarla]

Withdrawn, M'lud.

[BobG]

That's unfair Orlando surely?

If you are discussing a principle, and I thought that was what this thread had become, then extreme examples ARE the very essence of testing the principle. You, by your statements have led to the conclusion that either:

a) you are unprincipled, or
b) don't know a  principle when it bites you on the bum, or
c) have lost the argument so conclusively that you have just resorted to what I think you have previously abhorred - you are now playing the man. Not the ball.

Shame on you

BobG

[RedJ]

Godwin's law is fun.

[BillyStubbsTears]

No. Orlando, YOU made the point that it is bad form to show disrespect to others' feelings of support for their concept of their nation. All I did was to take that attitude to its logical conclusion. I chose obvious examples. But what about Pinochet's Chile? Or Botha's South Africa? Or Tito's Yugoslavia? Or Lee's Singapore? Or, bang up to date, Orban's Hungary?

You wouldn't show respect for Mao's China. Or Kim's North Korea. Or Hitler's Germany. But others would have done, and would have been disgusted by your lack of deference. You would clearly see yourself as being in the right on those cases. But what about the others I suggest? There's a line somewhere. And it is different for everyone.

So, we've established the principle that an unquestioning public display respect for what a nation represents is not an absolute requirement. It's a personal choice.

Now, if someone chooses not to display that unquestioning support, you have two choices. 1) Dismiss them as being deliberately objectionable. 2) Enquire what it is that they object to. If you choose the first, you can't logically object if someone else makes the same judgement of you. All you can do is to claim that YOUR judgement is better than theirs. And then we're out of the realm of logic and into the realm of beliefs.

[Orlandokarla]

Yes but you didnt keep your opinion to yourself Orlando, it's up there at the top of the page. Harry Patch developed his opinon from first hand experience and is therefore just as relevant as that used in your post. He appears to have a similar view of the pageantry now associated with Rememberance Day to Jeremy Corbyn, it's their opinion on war, or the futility of it, and commemorative services associated with conflict.

You are as well placed as me to answer your own question, how is Rememberance Day remembered in the US, do the Americans rember only US soldiers - or do services also remember their enemies too?

I don't think war is futile; it's the tragic result of the failure of reason to overcome human nature. But futile? Not so sure about that.

You asked me if I would tell him to 'sing up or shut up', to which I replied that I certainly wouldn't. Don't confuse my sense of propriety and reluctance to argue with the deeply held beliefs of a 111 year old WWI veteran, whose 1st hand experiences have formulated his views, with an unwillingness to share my own values in an appropriate setting. If a forum is not an appropriate place to share it, where is?

Regarding Remembrance Day, it had frankly never crossed my mind that anyone only remembered their own.

[Orlandokarla]

You're right Bob, that was a little unfair. I've reread the post, and the light-hearted tone I had intended was far from clear. Apologies BST.

I'm still trying to comprehend how I went from not wanting to engage in a clearly futile debate, to justifying why I wouldn't doff my cap to Hitler. It always gets around to Hitler in the end.

Bob, are you suggesting I'm unprincipled because my professed respect and tolerance for others and their beliefs falls short of including Hitler and his final solution? I'm not playing the man. I don't do that. I just honestly didn't make the leap, and still fail to see how somebody making a show of snubbing the national anthem, for example, possibly relates to my theoretical refusal to heil Hitler. In fact, it's my principles that would prevent me from showing deference to such people and what they stand for. I'm genuinely puzzled.

BST, yes, I'd be unwilling to rise for the nazi anthem, but I'm not sure I'd call it a political stand against nationalism. I have a history with them, and in their case, I wouldn't worry about causing offence amongst such vile, hate-filled people.
Although it may not come across in a forum, I don't like to offend anybody if I can help it, and I generally show a great deal of respect to people and their beliefs unless their actions dictate otherwise.

Of course people are free to make their own choices, and yes, that goes both ways. I accept that the line for many is a blurred, perhaps ever changing one, and that personal beliefs and convictions are the key determining factors. I'm not sure exactly to what extent logic plays into nationalism, excepting perhaps for the inherent logic that (unfortunately) dictates the necessity of it.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Regarding Remembrance Day, it had frankly never crossed my mind that anyone only remembered their own.

Then perhaps you ought to research the white poppy that Jeremy Corbyn wears and why it exists.

[wilts rover]

Regarding Remembrance Day, it had frankly never crossed my mind that anyone only remembered their own.

Then perhaps you ought to research the white poppy that Jeremy Corbyn wears and why it exists.

Or the dilema that the relatives of the 200000 or so Irish Catholics/men from the now Republic of Ireland who served in the British Army face on Rememberance Day- that day of course not being commemorated in the Republic as it is not in the USA (it's Veteran's Day in the US and the Irish remember their own on 11th July for anyone who wishes to correct me).

[BobG]

Orlando: Top man Sir!

That is the most honest post I've seen on here in years. Loud applause from me

BobG

[BillyStubbsTears]

Orlando. It was late yesterday and I was tired and it was daft of me to do the Godwin's Law thing. M

BUT, the list of other examples I have kind of makes the point. Personally, I wouldn't show respect for Orban's Hungary, or Pinochet's Chile, or Botha's SA. I probably would for Tito's Yugoslavia and Lee's Singapore, despite their many worrying aspects.

Because it is a choice. Just like your response to the daft example that I gave previously. I would hope that you wouldn't consider me to be a deliberate trouble causer for not honoring what Hungary is becoming. Because my decision would be a matter of principle. I have red lines, where my core beliefs transcend a need to do what is societally expected of you. Just like the ones that you have clearly shown yourself to have.

So, why assume that someone who chooses not to pay homage to the British or Anerican anthem is just being an attention-grabbing trouble-causer? Maybe they have their reasons?

[Filo]

Just watched Corbyn's conference speech, Wow! Hit all the right buttons, he gets my vote without a doubt!

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Haven't really seen it, so it will be interesting to see what he has said.  The devil will be in the details.  First impressions are he is trying to do things a way, but can he and is it just style over substance? I don't care how politics are done, I care what they do for me and our country.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP

If you care about your country, then you'll have loved McDonnell's speech yesterday. Finally, we've got someone talking about logical textbook economics, instead of the voodoo bullshit that has led us and Europe to the edge of a deflationary spiral.

Good news, eh?

[BillyStubbsTears]

PS
It shows how utterly dysfunctional the public debate on economics is though.

Peston, yesterday, said McDonnell was introducing unorthodox economic ideas that went against the consensus.

In actual fact, McDonnell's approach is standard textbook macroeconomics. It is the piss and wind of "expansionary austerity" that is utterly unorthodox economics, has no theoretical or empirical foundation and has been demonstrated by outcomes to be utter nonsense. Yet it is still trotted out by politicians whose careers are invested in it.