Question For Red Baron

[AlonzoDrake]

RB, there are some great pics in this "1879" piece from today's Star:

http://www.doncasterfreepress.co.uk/news/on-this-day-1879-the-birth-of-doncaster-rovers-pictures-1-8075726

However, there are some inconsistencies. It's interesting to trawl the microfilm for the Gazette and Chronicle during the 1870s because several Doncaster based AFC teams are well reported playing on the Town Moor. Recall that around 1875 a massive crowd assembled on the Town Moor to see a Doncaster AFC play a Newcastle AFC. And if memory serves, the Rovers were formed by recruiting players from these other Doncaster teams. So I think Darren may be confusing one of the older Doncaster clubs with the Rovers.

I also remember John that you have completed significant census research in tracking Albert Jenkins down. Could you re-post that -- it was a great bit of detective work, as all historic research is, but didn't it raise some questions?

[Bentley Bullet]

I once read somewhere that The club was nearly called Doncaster Wanderers in its formation. Has anyone got any evidence of this?

[AlonzoDrake]

We were certainly named after Blackburn (1875) BB, and I do recall that the name Wanderers from that microfilm research of the 1870s Donny papers, but that was about 30 years ago. Bolton were formed the year before Blackburn. The primary resource evidence for Rovers formation is scant, as both J. C. Morris, Rovers first historian, and Tony Bluff found out. I met  J. C. Morris in the 80s and he recalled retired Rovers players from his youth who had played in the Midland League days, but couldn't shed any light onto who Albert Jenkins was.

[The Red Baron]

The team formed at the Guildhall was, I believe, from a different social strata to Albert Jenkins and his "scratch" team. I've got about 38 pages of research into Albert as well as an article that was published in the journal "Soccer History" in 2009.

Various accounts of the formation of the club, which appeared in the Doncaster press in the 1890s and 1900s mention the "scratch" team got up by Albert to play the Deaf School. They don't mention a meeting at the Guildhall.

The Deaf School master who apparently asked Albert to get a team together has never been identified. Some circumstantial evidence points towards Fred Roach, who had been a railway clerk in 1871 and therefore had a connection to railways and possibly the Plant. Roach also came from near Bristol. Albert's father originated from near Bristol and I suspect that the Jenkins family lived near Bristol in the mid-1870s.

But overall, I think this Guildhall meeting is a red herring.

[The Red Baron]

We were certainly named after Blackburn (1875) BB, and I do recall that the name Wanderers from that microfilm research of the 1870s Donny papers, but that was about 30 years ago. Bolton were formed the year before Blackburn. The primary resource evidence for Rovers formation is scant, as both J. C. Morris, Rovers first historian, and Tony Bluff found out. I met  J. C. Morris in the 80s and he recalled retired Rovers players from his youth who had played in the Midland League days, but couldn't shed any light onto who Albert Jenkins was.

I'm sure I read somewhere that J. C. Morris met Albert Jenkins not long before the latter died. Maybe he didn't get much information out of their meeting, which is a pity. I would love to be able to go back in time and meet Albert. Among other things I would love to know why Albert ceased to be involved with Rovers after around 1885/86.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

Apparently someone started deleting his posts on Ye Olde Message Boarde and he flounced off in a huff.

[wilts rover]

Wasn't there some dispute with the local FA about Rovers walking off in a match, letters in the press and all that around the time he stopped? I think I still have some scans on my PC, will have a look after I get back from Cheltenham.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I once read somewhere that The club was nearly called Doncaster Wanderers in its formation. Has anyone got any evidence of this?

Clubs in those days normally called themselves Wanderers if they didn't have a home ground of their own and they had to 'wander' to wherever they could get a game. It sounds like Doncaster always had somewhere of their own to play from the start so would seem unlikely that they would call themselves 'Wanderers'...unless someone knows more about what the case actually was...

[RoversDave]

But then again a rover is someone who spends their time wandering.

[Ldr]

I once read somewhere that The club was nearly called Doncaster Wanderers in its formation. Has anyone got any evidence of this?

Clubs in those days normally called themselves Wanderers if they didn't have a home ground of their own and they had to 'wander' to wherever they could get a game. It sounds like Doncaster always had somewhere of their own to play from the start so would seem unlikely that they would call themselves 'Wanderers'...unless someone knows more about what the case actually was...

At a pre season friendly a Northwich in the mid 90s with Ken Avis and he gave the exact above reason for us being called Rovers when asked by a local

[RobTheRover]

TRB

Apparently someone started deleting his posts on Ye Olde Message Boarde and he flounced off in a huff.

It was Hoagy

[wilts rover]

This is the report of the match I mentioned, its from the Sheffield Independent and dated 1st February 1886, so the match has taken place a couple of days previously, late January 1886.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Excellent Wilts! Looks like we've always been narky gets!

[wilts rover]

Jenkins wrote a report of the match and the walk-off, where he accussed the Brigg fans of throwing stones at the Rovers players. I dont have a copy of that but I do have the Brigg captain's reply, from the same paper on 5th February 1886.

It would be worthwhile I think looking through the back issues of the Doncaster newspapers of the time to see if they expanded on the row, and if there was any further outcome from it. It can't be coincidence that Jenkins ended his association with Rovers soon after.

[The Red Baron]

I did an online trawl of the Sheffield papers for 1886 and found the letter from Albert Jenkins, which appeared on 3rd Feb. I will transcribe when I have a moment.

I also found a list of Rovers' officials in July 1886, which may well have been after the AGM. Albert was still listed as Hon. Assistant Secretary and his address for correspondence was given as 106 St Sepulchre Gate, which I believe was his home address.

So maybe he didn't resign over the row with Brigg Town?

[The Red Baron]

From the Sheffield Independent, 3rd February 1886

A FOOTBALL WRANGLE

To the Editor- Your report of our match with Brigg on Saturday says that the spectators gave strong expressions of disapproval at the conduct of the Doncaster players. I think that the public will not blame us for the course we pursued in view of the following explanation:-

In the first place, from the commencement of the game, the Rovers, being much the lighter team, were continually floored by their weightier antagonists, and were also invariably knocked off the ball, thus giving them no chance of showing anything like combination.  But the second and most important reason was the conduct of the spectators, the major portion of whom were young lads. Our wing man was several times tripped up by them, while our goalkeeper was the recipient of small favours in the shape of grass sods and small stones and when he remonstrated him they pelted our players also.

Our men stood it as long as they could and on the occasion of a dispute between both teams the onlookers rushed into the field and entered into a lively discussion with our umpire, who was assailed with some very choice expletives. During this wrangle Hemingfield, one of our players, was struck in the back and and Millard, Boothman and Whitley were hit about the body with stones, whereupon Leedle, the Rovers captain, left the field, together with some of the players.

The Brigg players would not join the Rovers after the match, nor offer any apology for the way in which they had been treated. As regards four other goals being disallowed by our umpire, the ball only passed through the posts on two other occasions. Both umpires promptly gave them as no goal on account of off-side play. Such disgraceful conduct shown towards visiting teams by the Brigg Club ought to be made public, as it is not the way to to get other clubs to arrange fixtures with them.

Yours sincerely

ALBERT JENKINS
Assistant Hon. Sec., Doncaster Rovers Football Club, 106 St Sepulchre Gate, Doncaster.

[The Red Baron]

The list of club officials in the Sheffield Telegraph for 27th July 1886 tallies with the list I have from a membership card (photocopy) for the 1886-87 season and still includes Albert:

1886-87. (Photocopy of membership card). President: W. Shirley, MP. Vice-president: H. Athron. Captain: Sol Leedle. Vice-captain: W. Bridgewater. 2nd Team Captain: F. Tovey.  3rd Team Captain: F. Foster.  Hon. Sec: Albert Edward Pearce (38 St James Terrace, Doncaster). Hon. Assistant-Sec: Albert Jenkins. Treasurer: W. Massey. Committee: W. Bedford, J. Musson, J. Hopwood, G. James, J. Newbury, W. Salmon, R. Hirst, J. Thorpe, W. Mosby. 

I don't have a similar card for 1887-88 but I do for 1888-89 by which time Albert has dropped off the radar.

[The Red Baron]

As I mentioned earlier, the search raises more questions than answers, and here is the big question: why did Albert Jenkins end his involvement with the Rovers? I have no definite proof, but I have three theories. The first I have alluded to earlier: that is, that the club grew out of all recognition between, say, 1882 and 1888. In the latter year, Rovers had a president and 14 vice-presidents, including two JPs, the local MP, two senior army officers and any number of local movers and shakers. The club was firmly established as the largest football club in the town. The president, Patrick Stirling JP, was the Chief Locomotive Engineer of the Great Northern Railway, in other words the boss of the Plant works. Secondly, and perhaps as a consequence of the former, the club was no longer a purely amateur, recreational outfit. In 1887-88 the club employed its first professional, Sam Hunt, a forward from Mexborough and the club captain, the Scot Alex Munro, was reckoned to owe his employment at the Plant more to his football than engineering prowess. Not everyone saw the growth of professionalism as a good thing- might Albert have been one of them? Finally, it is possible that his work meant that football was a pastime for which he no longer had time. As we saw, he married in 1890 and in 1891 he was living in a five-room house in Wheatley, some distance from the Plant and is shown on the census as a “Steam Engine Maker.”

From Looking for Albert- Soccer History Issue 23, 2009

[AlonzoDrake]

Thanks John -- did not know about the Brigg Town incident, but it just about marks a turning point in Rovers early history. The young club didn't have a permanent football ground until 1885/86 when it first rented the Intake Farm ground for the season.

I recall you found Albert's death date, but did you ever find an obituary for him?

Great reading. Thanks.

[Dutch Uncle]

 

[The Red Baron]

Thanks John -- did not know about the Brigg Town incident, but it just about marks a turning point in Rovers early history. The young club didn't have a permanent football ground until 1885/86 when it first rented the Intake Farm ground for the season.

I recall you found Albert's death date, but did you ever find an obituary for him?

Great reading. Thanks.

Sadly never found an obituary for him. We are currently attempting to find his final resting place though.

[The Red Baron]

Another frustration is that I have never been able to find any reference to Albert or his family in the 1881 Census. He wasn't at 106 St Sepulchre Gate in 1881 though.

By 1891 he was a married man but his widowed mother and two of his siblings were still at 106 SSG.

[The Red Baron]

In 1871 Albert (aged 10) was living near Middlesbrough. His father moved about a lot and was connected to the iron and steel industry. I suspect the family moved to Gloucestershire in the 1870s and Albert's father died there in about 1875. After that the family moved to Doncaster so Albert could work at the Plant.

The time in Gloucestershire may have provided the connection to the Deaf and Dumb Institute. One of the masters was Frederick Hyland, who came from that area and had previously worked on the railways. A family friend perhaps? And a possible solution to how a schoolmaster would have known a lad from the Plant.