Cambridge Analytica ...

[wilts rover]

Rubbish Billy. What Corbyn has constantly done is challenge the British state and their attempts to mislead the public. This attack probably came from Russia, as both he and May have said, but that is all it is a probability - any attempts to say more than that is either speculation - or deliberate misinformation. He is totally right to highlight that fact - as all the tv news outlets have led on.

Like Wes I am no expert in nerve agents but I can use google.
 
This novichok is deadly within 30 minutes and has no known antidotes. Two people have so far survived it - one of whom apparently reacted well to the antidote?
It can only be made by Russia - but its first proven creation was in Iran.
It can only have been made by a state - but some bloke in Moscow had some in his garage.

People should be asking questions not blindly following the governments line because they say so.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wilts.

So the other 20 Govts are all in on the act?

Sorry. 19. Trump has told Putin he can replace the 60 diplomats that the USA expelled, and then come over to Washington for a chat. Looks like there’s one western leader who likes to stay mates with Putin and doesn’t see much to worry about in his behaviour.

Regarding the efficacy of Novichok, you seem to be assuming that Putin’s agents are flawless. Which goes against the record of the agents who killed Litvinenko. The tale of their attempts to find him and finish him off, and the trail of radioactivity they left across London and an Aeroflot flight would be too daft for a Laurel and Hardy sketch.

But to be honest, that’s not the point. Corbyn HASN’T been healthily skeptical on this. He’s actively supported Russia’s arguments. Starting with initially refusing to discuss the likelihood of Russian involvement. Then, in Parliament, repeating the Russian line that we should give them samples of the nerve agent for them to check (on the premise, one assumes, that they would put their hands up and say “fair cop” if they found it WAS their’s...). Then today, he’s effectively reinforced the Russian line that, because Porton Down has not said the agent came from Russia, the whole case is undermined.

That’s not a healthy skepticism of our Govt. It’s at best being a naive useful idiot for a state which poses a serious threat to us and to Europe.

[wesisback]

36 countries eventually were involved in the illegal occupation of Iraq. 36 countries in on the act or hoodwinked by the 4 countries that originally invaded. Both sides of this argument are far from scrupulous. I'll stick with seeing some actual hard evidence before I make my mind up and as far as I'm aware thats all that JC has asked for. For a nation so sure of the perpetrators the actions since its happened are a tad peculiar you must admit?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Once we were in Iraq (wrongly, it was a catastrophic decision) the genie was out of the bottle. Do you think we should have left immediately and let the sectarian hatreds run wild?

Because if the answer to that is “no”, then your logic that the other 32 countries were “in on the act” or “hoodwinked” is flawed. There was a very strong case for keeping the shit storm that we had unleashed under some semblance of control.

I’d also suggest that your belief that all Corbyn has asked for is evidence is a little off the mark. Back in early March he asked if May would respond to the Russian request for a sample of the nerve agent. That wasn’t asking for evidence. It was implicitly saying that Corbyn put more trust in the state which poisoned Litvinenko and denied it than he put in the UK Govt.

And then today. Today started with Russia having a huge media effort to undermine the UK Govt line on the poisoning. Corbyn put himself on the Russian side of the argument by the way he responded to Johnson’s idiocy. Those appearances matter in politics. A lot.

[hoolahoop]

36 countries eventually were involved in the illegal occupation of Iraq. 36 countries in on the act or hoodwinked by the 4 countries that originally invaded. Both sides of this argument are far from scrupulous. I'll stick with seeing some actual hard evidence before I make my mind up and as far as I'm aware thats all that JC has asked for. For a nation so sure of the perpetrators the actions since its happened are a tad peculiar you must admit?

Your post shows exactly why Labour with its current leadership won't be able to manage this country . It's Corbyn that's the problem and more especially his naivety given the time he has spent in Parliament. You do start to wonder exactly which side he is on and that's not smart and won't ever win over our people . They simply don't do lack of patriotism in their leaders or for that matter leaders who lose half their politicians potentially given the demands for de-selection of much - loved and hard - working constituency MPs.

There is far more of this far - Left " Tatchellesque " goings on than meets    the eye in  councils etc up and down the country and it's not healthy   .
You have to remember that this country is broadly considered quite a conservative country and generally patriotic ( although  the Brexit vote showed how that could go wrong ! ) so you should be able to see from that just why I think that far from being an asset to Labour , both Corbyn and Momentum could ultimately be dragging the Party down.
Yes , the economics are appealing as is the general vibrant feel that new blood brings life into stale politics but ditch the past completely or too fast at your peril.

Moreover conduct Foreign Affairs in such a manner and it is easy to see that the MSM  & Social Media will feed Labour to the dogs .

[wesisback]

Once we were in Iraq (wrongly, it was a catastrophic decision) the genie was out of the bottle. Do you think we should have left immediately and let the sectarian hatreds run wild?

Because if the answer to that is “no”, then your logic that the other 32 countries were “in on the act” or “hoodwinked” is flawed. There was a very strong case for keeping the shit storm that we had unleashed under some semblance of control.

I’d also suggest that your belief that all Corbyn has asked for is evidence is a little off the mark. Back in early March he asked if May would respond to the Russian request for a sample of the nerve agent. That wasn’t asking for evidence. It was implicitly saying that Corbyn put more trust in the state which poisoned Litvinenko and denied it than he put in the UK Govt.

And then today. Today started with Russia having a huge media effort to undermine the UK Govt line on the poisoning. Corbyn put himself on the Russian side of the argument by the way he responded to Johnson’s idiocy. Those appearances matter in politics. A lot.

While your first point may be correct it was only partially the point I was wishing to get across. This idea that the democratic West is virtuous in its decisions is an incorrect one and we are more than capable of creating false belief in other countries just on influence. This quote was from the Portugese Prime Minister at the time of the Iraq war:
"When [former President Bill] Clinton was here recently he told me he was absolutely convinced, given his years in the White House and the access to privileged information which he had, that Iraq possessed weapons of mass destruction until the end of the Saddam regime."

Then we have more famously Jaques Chirac:
"There is a problem -- the probable possession of weapons of mass destruction by an uncontrollable country, Iraq. The international community is right . . . in having decided Iraq should be disarmed."

Again, I'm not saying its not Russia at all. I'm saying that you taking what the government say at face value is naive at best. Especially considering the mouths they're being spat out of.

Hoola, loved and hard working constituent MPs will almost certainly remain in their seats. Being a constituent of Dame Rosie Winterton, she certainly isn't hard left, nor do I believe her to be a fan of Jeremy Corbyn. What she has managed to do is carry some dignity. She probably isn't ideologically in tune with my beliefs on so many aspects but she would get my vote as I believe she would across most of Doncaster Central.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wes

Difficult, this politics thing isn’t it?

You have to make decisions with uncertain and incomplete information. So you inevitably lean on the past record of the people you are dealing with.

Events like Halabja. Or Litvinenko.

Alternatively, you can stand on the side wring your hands and saying “well there’s no PROOF that X is a bad guy and we REALLY don’t want trouble.” 

And you can achieve sainthood as a fair-minded anti-war person. Like Neville Chamberlain in 1938.

 By the way, I DON’T take what this Govt says at face value. I look at the track record of Putin and I weigh up the balance of probabilities. Then I decide which side I’m on, because sitting on the side saying “maybe this, maybe that” is a cop out. I didn’t take what Blair and Bush said in 2003 on face value either. Of course, if they HAD been right about WMD and we’d done nothing, and given Saddam’s demonstrated previous willingness to use them, I’d have had to put my hand up and admit that I’d got that wrong. Just like the appeasers from 1935-38 got it wrong.

As I say, it’s a tough game.

PS.

Here’s a thought for those who use Iraq as their touchstone for foreign policy stances.

Spend a little time researching how Putin dealt with Grozny. Then spend a little time looking at how Putin has dealt with Aleppo. And then try to find ANY equivalence in how the West dealt with Iraq, badly mistaken though that invasion was.

And then think about which side of this argument you are on.

[hoolahoop]

" By the way, I DON’T take what this Govt says at face value. I look at the track record of Putin and I weigh up the balance of probabilities. Then I decide which side I’m on, because sitting on the side saying “maybe this, maybe that” is a cop out. I didn’t take what Blair and Bush said in 2003 on face value either. Of course, if they HAD been right about WMD and we’d done nothing, and given Saddam’s demonstrated previous willingness to use them, I’d have had to put my hand up and admit that I’d got that wrong. Just like the appeasers from 1935-38 got it wrong. "


Excellent analysis, I couldn't agree more.

[hoolahoop]

Guardian leading on the suspension of AIQ by Facebook, AIQ of course " harvested " all those accounts for Vote Leave / BeLeave / Veterans for Britain / The DUP and other spurious campaign .

AIQ was responsible for over £ 3.5 million of the Leave campaign over - expenditure. 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/apr/06/facebook-suspends-aggregate-iq-cambridge-analytica-vote-leave-brexit

[albie]

Well done for getting back on topic, Hoola!

Some of the recent contributions would be better off in the "nerve agent" thread.

[hoolahoop]

Well done for getting back on topic, Hoola!

Some of the recent contributions would be better off in the "nerve agent" thread.

Thanks, what is worrying though  is the lack of interest in the way some minds have been bent . Our democracy was and probably still is under attack given the bias of our MSM and the BBC . Stories are being totally ignored, others inflated for political gain.
The Far Right and it's money is on the attack using the average man in the street. Warping his sense of the world, stealing the truth from him.

[hoolahoop]

Note that Facebook feed showing a new 3 rd. whistleblower on the shenanigans behind the vote Leave campaigns . More money being overspent on these campaigns and more attempts to hide this by MSM  . BOTH Parties seem to want this to just disappear when it's so important to our democracy.

https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/apr/14/damian-collins-mp-interview-need-reform-electoral-law-digital-age

https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/adam-ramsay/what-weve-discovered-in-year-investigating-dark-money-that-funded-brexit-me

[hoolahoop]

Seems this is sorted out - I think they are doing internal investigations now . All in the interests of democracy of course.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Filed for bankruptcy.

https://ca-commercial.com/news/cambridge-analytica-and-scl-elections-commence-insolvency-proceedings-and-release-results-3

Done it’s job I guess. Tipped the balance in the Brexit and Trump votes before its cover was blown.

f**k me but the history books will have a field day with these times when they are written in 50 years time.

[albie]

More difficult to bring before the courts, if the corporate entity is dissolved.

Same people and business model rebranded;
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/02/cambridge-analytica-closure-questions-and-answers

On we go....any number of legal identities in a hall of mirrors looking forward.
The "Special Purpose Vehicle" route, where a company is formed as a folder to contain a specific project, which then collapses once its function is complete.

Will anything be done?
What's your guess?

[hoolahoop]

Nothing will be done. This is a huge blow to democracy - they have got away with it !

[albie]

Some with a fine pedigree connected with the new lifeform Emerdata;
http://uk.businessinsider.com/cambridge-analytica-executives-and-mercer-family-launch-emerdata-2018-3?r=US&IR=T

Solid citizens to a man.
Every one committed to democratic values, Hoola!

[hoolahoop]

Some with a fine pedigree connected with the new lifeform Emerdata;
http://uk.businessinsider.com/cambridge-analytica-executives-and-mercer-family-launch-emerdata-2018-3?r=US&IR=T

Solid citizens to a man.
Every one committed to democratic values, Hoola!

Haha , I wonder if our Govt . will keep a close eye on this lot ?  What a parcel of rogues  up to the same tricks just under a new name .

[albie]

Cambridge Anaglypta may have morphed, but the work continues on;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/peter-geoghegan-jenna-corderoy/revealed-brexit-campaigner-obtained-data-for-millions-of

Ireland's abortion referendum in the frame now. No democracy is safe from all this.

[hoolahoop]

Cambridge Anaglypta may have morphed, but the work continues on;
https://www.opendemocracy.net/uk/brexitinc/peter-geoghegan-jenna-corderoy/revealed-brexit-campaigner-obtained-data-for-millions-of

Ireland's abortion referendum in the frame now. No democracy is safe from all this.

Quite unbelievable Albie yet despite all  this the general public still remain blissfully unaware of just how they are being manipulated .
Democracy my arse - it simply doesn't exist.