UK v Germany

[hoolahoop]

I'm sure the lovely chap from the OECD that put this together would enjoy a debate with you.

Personally I don't care, all I said was that the NL figures that Hoola was using in a comparison with the UK were unreliable.

I stand by my figures see the following comparisons :-
https://www.indexmundi.com/factbook/compare/united-kingdom.netherlands

I don't believe my stats are unreliable at all . Here's some more for you :-

https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/nld/

[Glyn_Wigley]

:headbang:clearly Glyn didn't do Geography as a subject at school!

What's Geography got to do with Customs Law? Nothing, as far as I can see.

[Cantley Rover]

Wouldn't the same thing apply to Felixstowe. Or does everything that comes into Felixstowe remain in the UK?

[silent majority]

I'm sure the lovely chap from the OECD that put this together would enjoy a debate with you.

Personally I don't care, all I said was that the NL figures that Hoola was using in a comparison with the UK were unreliable.

I stand by my figures see the following comparisons :-
https://www.indexmundi.com/factbook/compare/united-kingdom.netherlands

I don't believe my stats are unreliable at all . Here's some more for you :-

https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/nld/

I've just looked through those, and they prove nothing.

But have it your way, I'm not that interested.

[hoolahoop]

I'm sure the lovely chap from the OECD that put this together would enjoy a debate with you.

Personally I don't care, all I said was that the NL figures that Hoola was using in a comparison with the UK were unreliable.

I stand by my figures see the following comparisons :-
https://www.indexmundi.com/factbook/compare/united-kingdom.netherlands

I don't believe my stats are unreliable at all . Here's some more for you :-

https://atlas.media.mit.edu/en/profile/country/nld/

I've just looked through those, and they prove nothing.

But have it your way, I'm not that interested.

Thought you might not be somehow , they differ from what you believe .

Site after site , stat after stat have the Dutch between 6-8th in any international export league . Now you may want to argue about the specifics Martin but  In whatever way you measure the figures and as patriotic as you might try to be - fact is we have under- performed in our export trade and have for some 100 years - which was my original point ! What further figures do you want me to chuck at you  ? Fact is this is a small nation that packs a big punch , perhaps instead of blowing raspberries at me you might agree with my overall point .

We make fewer unique items for the export market than we ever did , our industrial base is at an all- time low and basically we struggle to compete. Our workforce is capable but ill- prepared and in many cases poorly organised . Our universities have been shovelling out kid after kid with weak degrees , fatefully ill-equipped for the modern industrial age . These are facts . Now if you disputed these as pure opinion and came up with counter- arguments I could engage with you further and we could have an interesting debate on here. However you pop on here say summat is bollox and proceed to flounce off
Since Thatcher " abandoned " our manufacturing base in the 1980's in favour of a larger Service sector - manufacturing has continued to struggle . I'm not enjoying writing this but we want to go out there into unknown markets and de-regulate further just to try and regain some sort of competitive edge however in my opinion we are ill-equipped , it's romantic however  it won't work

Check page 7 of the OECD  profile on the Netherlands - it is consistent with my figures

[hoolahoop]

Wouldn't the same thing apply to Felixstowe. Or does everything that comes into Felixstowe remain in the UK?

Yes if you went along with Silent Majority's theory ,  however the small point he makes about the container port of Rotterdam does have some merit - if you make the assumption that the Dutch export stats are enhanced by it .
Fact is The Netherlands export  performance per head far exceeds both ours , the Germans and the French.
There are good reasons why the Dutch were the richest nation on earth for centuries (1550 - 1850 in terms of gdp per. capita )

[hoolahoop]

So are you saying we are not getting a good deal?

Keith , we are being badly let down and it's not by the EU  as BST posted earlier . We are not even competing with Holland ffs  !

Hoola, I wouldn't use the Netherlands as a yard stick to beat up the UK. A large proportion of their exports are actually re-exports, they certainly aren't manufactured goods or services.

Yes I agree SM the entreport of Rotterdam being the culprit.

If you're talking about Rotterdam being the focal point for transhipments and Bonded Warehouses, then any of those goods aren't technically imported into  The Netherlands as they aren't in Free Circulation - so wouldn't count as Dutch imports or exports.

Hmm silent majority seems to think they are . Oh to get the export figures up by being one huge container port ......We will be shortly lorry parks everywhere at this rate!

Don't do that Hoola. I never said that at all. I didn't even mention Rotterdam.

Neither did I mention Rotterdam - at least I can't see any reference to it - I'm pretty pissed though that you thought I would do that to you .

[Glyn_Wigley]

Wouldn't the same thing apply to Felixstowe. Or does everything that comes into Felixstowe remain in the UK?

If something coming from outside the EU landed at Felixstowe to be transhipped to, say, Ireland, what would normally happen is that the goods would be declared to Free Circulation (with all Duties and Taxes paid) at Felixtowe and they then travel onwards unfettered due to the UK and Ireland being in the Single Market. When the goods cross the border into Ireland it isn't an export from the UK to Ireland as the goods have not crossed a Customs Border, they did that at Felixstowe.

When goods are entered into a Bonded Warehouse in Rotterdam, they are not in Free Circulation as although the Warehouse is on Dutch soil the Duty and VAT haven't been paid on them and they have not crossed a Customs Border either. There are two main things that can happen to the goods then - they either go to a Member State of the EU, and they are entered to Free Circulation (because they cross the Customs Border the second they leave the Warehouse) and travel onwards to their destination (however, the importing country is deemed to be where the destination named on the documentation for leaving the Bonded Warehouse); or, they are transhipped to somewhere outside of the EU in which case they travel onwards without the need to pay Duty and VAT and they are not deemed to have been in the EU because they were never in Free Circulation and did not cross the EU Customs Border.

Rotterdam is the big centre for Bonded Warehouses in the EU. Felixstowe (and the rest of the UK) have Bonded Warehouses too, but Rotterdam is the central nexus. My guess is that someone somewhere is counting goods that have moved out of Rotterdam's Bonded Warehouses - but not crossing the Customs Border - as 'Dutch exports', which is true in the sense that the goods have physically crossed Dutch territory but incorrect in the usual sense of import/exports in that the goods haven't actually been imported into Free Circulation in the Netherlands in the first place.

[hoolahoop]

Wouldn't the same thing apply to Felixstowe. Or does everything that comes into Felixstowe remain in the UK?

If something coming from outside the EU landed at Felixstowe to be transhipped to, say, Ireland, what would normally happen is that the goods would be declared to Free Circulation (with all Duties and Taxes paid) at Felixtowe and they then travel onwards unfettered due to the UK and Ireland being in the Single Market. When the goods cross the border into Ireland it isn't an export from the UK to Ireland as the goods have not crossed a Customs Border, they did that at Felixstowe.

When goods are entered into a Bonded Warehouse in Rotterdam, they are not in Free Circulation as although the Warehouse is on Dutch soil the Duty and VAT haven't been paid on them and they have not crossed a Customs Border either. There are two main things that can happen to the goods then - they either go to a Member State of the EU, and they are entered to Free Circulation (because they cross the Customs Border the second they leave the Warehouse) and travel onwards to their destination (however, the importing country is deemed to be where the destination named on the documentation for leaving the Bonded Warehouse); or, they are transhipped to somewhere outside of the EU in which case they travel onwards without the need to pay Duty and VAT and they are not deemed to have been in the EU because they were never in Free Circulation and did not cross the EU Customs Border.

Rotterdam is the big centre for Bonded Warehouses in the EU. Felixstowe (and the rest of the UK) have Bonded Warehouses too, but Rotterdam is the central nexus. My guess is that someone somewhere is counting goods that have moved out of Rotterdam's Bonded Warehouses - but not crossing the Customs Border - as 'Dutch exports', which is true in the sense that the goods have physically crossed Dutch territory but incorrect in the usual sense of import/exports in that the goods haven't actually been imported into Free Circulation in the Netherlands in the first place.

How on earth , based on that final part of your theory , could the Dutch Govt . ever work out their " true" balance of trade figures  ? How could they ever plan ahead - where would we ever find their true export figures unless we could break them down by sector.
Incidentally , it is claimed that we also use our onward travel arrangements of large gold shipments to artificially inflate our export figures is that happening in much the same way  ?