HS2

[drfchound]

Thanks BFYP. I knew he'd campaigned for improved payments for residents whose houses were affected but I'd not seen that he'd campaigned against the whole concept.

f**king hell, talk about blinkered!

I don't know which one is worse hound .

The Etonian entitled serial bullshyter  who everyone knew was a serial entitled bullshyter

Or

The one who looks and talks as though he's been through Eton plus a knighthood and serial bullshyte's .

If the bar gets any lower even these two snakes won't be able to crawl under it .

You really can't tell which one is worse?

Honestly?

….and you say you didn’t know about Starmer campaigning against HS2, yeah, of course you didn’t.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

It typifies the problem for me.  Boris is doing a pretty poor job of late and he knows it.  But are labour really catching up or are they slightly benefitting from a poor Tory position. It's hard to see the Tories going backwards in the polls from where they are now.  Starmer makes it easy to be criticised because nobody knows what he stands for. He appears to change his views to suit opportunities.

Second jobs labour want to ban them, but he took advantage of it (imo second jobs are important if managed correctly whereas he now wants pretty much a full ban).  HS2 he was against it until he could take advantage of it. Brexit, his view Changed after the election again.  How do we know what he stands for apart from what the government doesn't do?  Corbyn was a poor leader but largely we knew who he was.  It remains a case of who is the least bad leader.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BFYP
I don't think Starmer has done well as a leader but I think you are over egging the HS2 line (no pun intended).

In 2015 his only role was as MP for a constituency which had areas badly blighted by the plans.

That work has happened. That fight was lost. As our Brexit supporting chums keep lecturing us, you have to move on and not fight old battles. Make the best of where we are now.

Secondly, he is now national LotO. He would be failing in that role if he didn't judge policies on their overall national effect, rather than focus on specific effects on a small group.

Context is everything.

Think of the management of a large organisation. The head of a small section of the operation may fight like hell for more resources for her section. She may then become MD and choose not to give more resources to her old section because it's not in the company's overall interests. That's not hypocrisy. It's all about context.

[tyke1962]

BFYP
I don't think Starmer has done well as a leader but I think you are over egging the HS2 line (no pun intended).

In 2015 his only role was as MP for a constituency which had areas badly blighted by the plans.

That work has happened. That fight was lost. As our Brexit supporting chums keep lecturing us, you have to move on and not fight old battles. Make the best of where we are now.

Secondly, he is now national LotO. He would be failing in that role if he didn't judge policies on their overall national effect, rather than focus on specific effects on a small group.

Context is everything.

Think of the management of a large organisation. The head of a small section of the operation may fight like hell for more resources for her section. She may then become MD and choose not to give more resources to her old section because it's not in the company's overall interests. That's not hypocrisy. It's all about context.

Well the only context that I see is that Starmer is your fairly typical Labour centrist and metropolitan politician given his opposition to HS2 .

His brand of politics have had more than a hand in the North becoming what it is today given the 13 years Labour were in government .

Anyone who sends a remainer candidate to fight a by-election in a massive leave constituency as Hartlepool clearly doesn't get the North .

Starmer campaigning in towns like Rochdale , Bury or Grimsby and you just know he isn't going to connect .

It's these towns that will decide the next election and not necessarily the big city's .

The tide has turned against Labour and now it's the centrist metropolitan Labour voter who haven't anywhere else to go although admittedly the Lib Dems are a possibility for what good that would achieve mind .

[BillyStubbsTears]

Tyke.
I swear you'd have voted against Labour in 1945.

Attlee was an upper middle class son of a very wealthy solicitor. London born and bred. Public school and Oxford educated. University Don before becoming a London MP.

No way would you have voted for his party!

[albie]

It is less about the personality of Starmer, and more about the policies he wants to promote.

Keith stood on the platform of support for the broad policy offer developed by Corbyn.
At the hustings he put his case on that basis, but since then has abandoned those promises.

He has also looked to expel members on the basis of a retrospective association with groups once affiliated to Labour. This is unlawful, and will be contested in court.

The Party stands on the brink of insolvency due to the mismanagement of Starmer and Evans.
The situation could hardly be worse.

Keith is the worst Labour leader in my lifetime, and I can remember the appalling Neil Kinnock.
IMO he offers nothing, and has zero credibility, neither in the red wall as Tyke says, nor in the Metropolitan areas, where he is losing support of Muslim and marginalised groups.

Keith stands for nothing, other than not being Boris.....he is shite!

[Ldr]

Yet BSTs experience door to door was that the loss was down to leadership not policies at the last election

[BillyStubbsTears]

Certainly was Ldr. And no subsequent Labour leader would have had a cat in hell's chance of returning to power if they had put an arm round the shoulder of the Corbynistas. Especially ones who sent anti-Semitic tweets, or who (like Corbyn) decried the results of the inquiry into anti-Semitism in the Labour party.

And it's worth noting that two years into the last Parliament, Corbyn's Labour party was on 20% in the polls. Two years into this one, Starmer's party is heading towards 40%.

But yeah, Starmer is useless and Corbyn is in the process of beatification.

[wilts rover]

BFYP
I don't think Starmer has done well as a leader but I think you are over egging the HS2 line (no pun intended).

In 2015 his only role was as MP for a constituency which had areas badly blighted by the plans.

That work has happened. That fight was lost. As our Brexit supporting chums keep lecturing us, you have to move on and not fight old battles. Make the best of where we are now.

Secondly, he is now national LotO. He would be failing in that role if he didn't judge policies on their overall national effect, rather than focus on specific effects on a small group.

Context is everything.

Think of the management of a large organisation. The head of a small section of the operation may fight like hell for more resources for her section. She may then become MD and choose not to give more resources to her old section because it's not in the company's overall interests. That's not hypocrisy. It's all about context.

Well the only context that I see is that Starmer is your fairly typical Labour centrist and metropolitan politician given his opposition to HS2 .

His brand of politics have had more than a hand in the North becoming what it is today given the 13 years Labour were in government .

Anyone who sends a remainer candidate to fight a by-election in a massive leave constituency as Hartlepool clearly doesn't get the North .

Starmer campaigning in towns like Rochdale , Bury or Grimsby and you just know he isn't going to connect .

It's these towns that will decide the next election and not necessarily the big city's .

The tide has turned against Labour and now it's the centrist metropolitan Labour voter who haven't anywhere else to go although admittedly the Lib Dems are a possibility for what good that would achieve mind .

The people you are talking about voted for an Oxbridge educated, metropolitan elite, Old Etonian millionaire. So yes clearly they would!

[tyke1962]

Tyke.
I swear you'd have voted against Labour in 1945.

Attlee was an upper middle class son of a very wealthy solicitor. London born and bred. Public school and Oxford educated. University Don before becoming a London MP.

No way would you have voted for his party!

Well as ever these days you couldn't be more wrong .

It's nothing to do with class it's to do with having the skills to see outside the centrist metropolitan bubble .

There wasn't anybody more upper crust than Tony Benn who I admired greatly so I'm afraid your assessment of me is massively flawed .

The Labour Party of 1945 had balls , strength and courage of conviction and knew exactly what the mood of the country was .

They won a landslide victory beating a war hero .

The current Labour Party doesn't even deserve to be in the same conversation as the class of 1945 .

[tyke1962]

BFYP
I don't think Starmer has done well as a leader but I think you are over egging the HS2 line (no pun intended).

In 2015 his only role was as MP for a constituency which had areas badly blighted by the plans.

That work has happened. That fight was lost. As our Brexit supporting chums keep lecturing us, you have to move on and not fight old battles. Make the best of where we are now.

Secondly, he is now national LotO. He would be failing in that role if he didn't judge policies on their overall national effect, rather than focus on specific effects on a small group.

Context is everything.

Think of the management of a large organisation. The head of a small section of the operation may fight like hell for more resources for her section. She may then become MD and choose not to give more resources to her old section because it's not in the company's overall interests. That's not hypocrisy. It's all about context.

Well the only context that I see is that Starmer is your fairly typical Labour centrist and metropolitan politician given his opposition to HS2 .

His brand of politics have had more than a hand in the North becoming what it is today given the 13 years Labour were in government .

Anyone who sends a remainer candidate to fight a by-election in a massive leave constituency as Hartlepool clearly doesn't get the North .

Starmer campaigning in towns like Rochdale , Bury or Grimsby and you just know he isn't going to connect .

It's these towns that will decide the next election and not necessarily the big city's .

The tide has turned against Labour and now it's the centrist metropolitan Labour voter who haven't anywhere else to go although admittedly the Lib Dems are a possibility for what good that would achieve mind .

The people you are talking about voted for an Oxbridge educated, metropolitan elite, Old Etonian millionaire. So yes clearly they would!

They voted to get brexit done and not be fecked over by the likes of Starmer and his second referendum .

[albie]

BST,

The full picture on the position on anti semitism in Labour awaits the release of the Forde Inquiry, which Keith has not published.

For a summary, Craig Murray did a useful overview;
https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2020/04/that-leaked-labour-party-report/

The polls say nothing relevant at this stage. Perhaps a discontent with Johnson, that's all!

To say Labour are polling at around 40% is entirely meaningless...are they likely to recover seats in Scotland, and if not, how can they hope to form a majority?

The point is that the shapeshifting of Keith on HS2 is a template for how he moves his political stance.
Everything is negotiable, nothing is ethical.

If you can explain what you think the core beliefs of Keith are, and how they will find expression in policy, feel free....no-one else seems able to define it, least of all Starmer!

[wilts rover]

BFYP
I don't think Starmer has done well as a leader but I think you are over egging the HS2 line (no pun intended).

In 2015 his only role was as MP for a constituency which had areas badly blighted by the plans.

That work has happened. That fight was lost. As our Brexit supporting chums keep lecturing us, you have to move on and not fight old battles. Make the best of where we are now.

Secondly, he is now national LotO. He would be failing in that role if he didn't judge policies on their overall national effect, rather than focus on specific effects on a small group.

Context is everything.

Think of the management of a large organisation. The head of a small section of the operation may fight like hell for more resources for her section. She may then become MD and choose not to give more resources to her old section because it's not in the company's overall interests. That's not hypocrisy. It's all about context.

Well the only context that I see is that Starmer is your fairly typical Labour centrist and metropolitan politician given his opposition to HS2 .

His brand of politics have had more than a hand in the North becoming what it is today given the 13 years Labour were in government .

Anyone who sends a remainer candidate to fight a by-election in a massive leave constituency as Hartlepool clearly doesn't get the North .

Starmer campaigning in towns like Rochdale , Bury or Grimsby and you just know he isn't going to connect .

It's these towns that will decide the next election and not necessarily the big city's .

The tide has turned against Labour and now it's the centrist metropolitan Labour voter who haven't anywhere else to go although admittedly the Lib Dems are a possibility for what good that would achieve mind .

The people you are talking about voted for an Oxbridge educated, metropolitan elite, Old Etonian millionaire. So yes clearly they would!

They voted to get brexit done and not be fecked over by the likes of Starmer and his second referendum .

Well they appear to have been fecked over by Johnson and his frozen oven ready deal. So again clearly they will.

[SydneyRover]

And they keep getting 'fecked over' on a daily basis

[foxbat]

Who is this 'Keith '?

[scawsby steve]

Who is this 'Keith '?

Why do people keep asking the same question over and over again? It's been explained on here umpteen times.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

BFYP
I don't think Starmer has done well as a leader but I think you are over egging the HS2 line (no pun intended).

In 2015 his only role was as MP for a constituency which had areas badly blighted by the plans.

That work has happened. That fight was lost. As our Brexit supporting chums keep lecturing us, you have to move on and not fight old battles. Make the best of where we are now.

Secondly, he is now national LotO. He would be failing in that role if he didn't judge policies on their overall national effect, rather than focus on specific effects on a small group.

Context is everything.

Think of the management of a large organisation. The head of a small section of the operation may fight like hell for more resources for her section. She may then become MD and choose not to give more resources to her old section because it's not in the company's overall interests. That's not hypocrisy. It's all about context.

I don't disagree it's absolutely valid that things can change pending context or situation.  I haven't seen him answer the question though, why not be honest with his change on it? He's victim of a narrative that says he lacks conviction for what he believes, rightly or wrongly it's an easy attack line.  Note he's nowhere near as bad as Boris Johnson on these things but struggles to lose that tag because it's used well.  The same will be said on Tories sleaze point.

Will any of it matter come the election? Maybe not, but that point is now only 2.5 years away so the next 18 months matters hugely.

[albie]

Panorama did a report 18 months ago on the cost increases for HS2;
https://youtu.be/LCh7WIRuT1g

Since then, the costs have skyrocketed, even without the Leeds link.

Worth listening to Doug Thornton in the vid, talking about how likely costs were underplayed.
As a business strategy, sell the idea on a false set of costings, then use sunk costs as a justification to continue.

The other standout is the HS2 CEO claiming that the Leeds extension brings benefits to support the economic case for the whole package...Hmm!

What a crock of shyte....and the weak minded fell for it!

[Sprotyrover]

Just watched it what a joke,they would have had loads of issues with Archeology, St Helens well an ancient Celtic place of worship would have been a problem plus the Roman road plus the Roman paved Ford!