Ancestry and national identity. And footy.

[normal rules]

Like many I guess I’ve been watching the footy tonight.
I was born in Doncaster Royal Infirmary in 1969 to parents who are both from South Yorkshire mining communities. My father was born in Doncaster. But his dad, my grandfather, who I was lucky enough to know, was born in South Shields. His great grandfather, my great grandfather X3  was born in a suburb of Edinburgh. And twelve generations before him, all of which I have recorded, are all Scottish. From Caithness in fact. My surname is very Scottish and is a sept of the Clan Mackay.
Like politics, some who argue black is white would say I’m am English. Born and bred as such. And I can’t argue with that loosely.,But a huge part of my ancestry is North of the Border. And so my national identity is clouded. It’s blended. Mixed. Diluted with a large dash of jock. Not something I’ve thought too much about until I’ve been old and interested enough to ask where my roots lie. I simply wouldn’t be here without my recent Scottish ancestors.
And so tonight’s game for me wasn’t tainted with the hatred and passion that many feel.
I wonder how many others who claim to be English, actually have a much more complex history? Perhaps north of the border.
And yes, I am aware we all come from the same place if you look back far enough. My family history though, I can trace back to around 1625 on my father side following the male line solely. So just around 400 years ago. Many decades before England  and Scotland faced each other on the footy pitch. At a time when people living in this country didn’t even know half the world existed.

[Filo]

Do one of those DNA tests, you’ll be surprised what DNA you have from all around the World

[BillyStubbsTears]

Good piece NR.

I've mused on that theme before.

My surname is from an old French word meaning "someone from Germany". I was born in a village dominated by a Norman castle and spent much of my childhood in a village ending -by, which meant it was a Viking settlement.

My mother's family were Irish immigrants.

Pretty much every one of us has a similar story to tell if we scratch the surface.

I'm British and consider myself nothing other than British. But really we are all mongrel mixtures. Acknowledging that makes unthinking nationalism seem a very odd think to believe in.

Oh aye, my kids are even more mongrel, given that my wife is half-Italian.

[Filo]

Here’s my DNA Ancestry results



35.9% German

[scawsby steve]

Good piece NR.

I've mused on that theme before.

My surname is from an old French word meaning "someone from Germany". I was born in a village dominated by a Norman castle and spent much of my childhood in a village ending -by, which meant it was a Viking settlement.

My mother's family were Irish immigrants.

Pretty much every one of us has a similar story to tell if we scratch the surface.

I'm British and consider myself nothing other than British. But really we are all mongrel mixtures. Acknowledging that makes unthinking nationalism seem a very odd think to believe in.

Oh aye, my kids are even more mongrel, given that my wife is half-Italian.

My dad's family were from Thurnscoe, and my mam's family were from Hartlepool.

I'd say that makes me of excellent pedigree. Not quite of the aristocratic breeding of BB, but excellent nonetheless.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Interesting topic. I mostly see myself as English but you can't get away from heritage. My family are all Scottish on my dad's side (he's also Scottish) so I have a big affinity there and actually went to school there for a few years.  As such I do have a fondness for a lot of Scottish culture (particularly musically) and Scottish football which I watched a lot of when younger.

He didn't reply when I asked him if channel 4 had turned the crowd off tonight though

[normal rules]

Good piece NR.

I've mused on that theme before.

My surname is from an old French word meaning "someone from Germany". I was born in a village dominated by a Norman castle and spent much of my childhood in a village ending -by, which meant it was a Viking settlement.

My mother's family were Irish immigrants.

Pretty much every one of us has a similar story to tell if we scratch the surface.

I'm British and consider myself nothing other than British. But really we are all mongrel mixtures. Acknowledging that makes unthinking nationalism seem a very odd think to believe in.

Oh aye, my kids are even more mongrel, given that my wife is half-Italian.

My dad's family were from Thurnscoe, and my mam's family were from Hartlepool.

I'd say that makes me of excellent pedigree. Not quite of the aristocratic breeding of BB, but excellent nonetheless.

What about further back? If you haven’t looked, I’d encourage you too. You may be surprised.

[tommy toes]

My surname is a derivative of Hood and I was born near Barnsdale Bar, but don't think Robin had any kids.

Seriously, my daughter had her DNA test which was mostly Northern Scandinavian, so I guess I am too, being blue eyed and fair.

[normal rules]

Ancestry is a wonderful database for checking out your family history. Many family trees have already been mapped.
Worth signing up for a month to check up.
And no, I don’t work for them.

[Nudga]

I have French/Italian ancestry from my mother's side, I was born in Worksop and lived in Retford until I was ten.
For some weird reason I feel more proud to be a Yorkshireman (even though I born in Notts) than I do being an Englishman.
Maybe it's my hatred of the monarchy or elite classes that rule us and give us laws and taxes to abide by?

Of course I want England to beat Scotland or the other home nations but that's just football.
a part of me feels embarrassed to be English but I'm bloody proud to have the Yorkshire accent.

[danumdon]

Closest link i have to Scotland was when my ancestors did border guard duty on Hadrian's Wall in 54BC, and no i didn't get that from Ancestry!

In fact i've probably got ancestors who frequented the castle on the Don that was Danum before becoming Doncaster!!

Mine's a fully Mediterranean background, with parents from Naples but with an Italian family name that comes from the Spanish Basque region!

[Bentley Bullet]

Scawsby Steve thought he was 100% English until he found out a few years ago he had French connections. He was then called Steve the Frog for a bit until it was discovered he also had relations in Warsaw. He then realised he was a tad pole.

[SydneyRover]

My family migrated to Doncaster, my mothers side were Nottingham miners from Old Basford born around 1850 and my old mans side were Staffs miners born around the 1900s and came from Cannock. I guess, as I don't know, that they went to where you could get work.

[belton rover]

Good piece NR.

I've mused on that theme before.

My surname is from an old French word meaning "someone from Germany". I was born in a village dominated by a Norman castle and spent much of my childhood in a village ending -by, which meant it was a Viking settlement.

My mother's family were Irish immigrants.

Pretty much every one of us has a similar story to tell if we scratch the surface.

I'm British and consider myself nothing other than British. But really we are all mongrel mixtures. Acknowledging that makes unthinking nationalism seem a very odd think to believe in.

Oh aye, my kids are even more mongrel, given that my wife is half-Italian.

If you called your kids Britalians instead of mongrels, you could sell them for a fortune.

[ravenrover]

My family migrated to Doncaster, my mothers side were Nottingham miners from Old Basford born around 1850 and my old mans side were Staffs miners born around the 1900s and came from Cannock. I guess, as I don't know, that they went to where you could get work.

My paternal great grandparents may have known and even worked with your Mums folks Syd.
And as they did  my Grandad migrated to Adwick after WW1 to work at Broddie

[SydneyRover]

My family migrated to Doncaster, my mothers side were Nottingham miners from Old Basford born around 1850 and my old mans side were Staffs miners born around the 1900s and came from Cannock. I guess, as I don't know, that they went to where you could get work.

My paternal great grandparents may have known and even worked with your Mums folks Syd.
And as they did  my Grandad migrated to Adwick after WW1 to work at Broddie

Quite possibly RR, they lived on Hall flat lane for a time and I'm not sure how far that generation travelled to work on a daily basis. I don't know in which pits they worked, the grandparents weren't talked about very much and they were all dead by the time I came along. There is a photo of my dad's mum with a small baby in her arms which is my elder brother by a couple of years.

[glosterred]

Here’s my DNA Ancestry results



35.9% German

This must be you at the Everton game reserving your sun lounger


COYR

[Dutch Uncle]

A particularly interesting topic for me NR, many thanks.

I have done some work on the family tree since retirement some years ago, and after the passing of wife two yeas ago I have joined a group writing memoirs. My whole identity thing has a huge Rovers influence on it, and I did write a bit about that for the Fanzine when Laurie Sheffield passed away. I was born in Wales to a Welsh mother and a Yorkshire father, and we moved to Doncaster when I was 5.  Aged about 10, my father said to me that I would never play for Yorkshire at cricket because I wasn’t born there, so after a few seconds’ thought, I stated, to my father’s amusement and my mother’s pride, that I must be Welsh. Identity solved, but not entirely.

In an effort to be less geeky I started playing sport and going to watch Rovers. I was hooked (first match against Tranmere in FA Cup in 1962 lost 1-4 with 10 men, having has a player carried off with a broken leg). My secondary school friends were not always enthusiastic about my Welsh leanings, but we all happily went to the Rovers together. Then Swansea born Laurie Sheffield arrived and became an immediate star scoring a hatful of goals, indeed the number he scored that season has not been beaten in the sixty years since. But it was his overall impact that was so personally important for me. The good folk of Doncaster and my school friends in particular could realise that good things can come from Swansea, and critically it strengthened my acceptance among them and cemented my feeling of Welsh association.

I enjoyed playing squash and helped by playing against some terrific players at University, my standard rose, but then I left the country for the then squash desert of Germany initially for 2 years and not a day longer. A couple of years later I moved to the Netherlands, for the next 36 years. During this time local squash standards rose, and I was able to win one Welsh Cap, which in my mind cemented my nationality permanently.

My employment in NATO gave me many opportunities to explain the complexity of UK geo-politics and the fact that British does not equal English. On the mathematically interesting date of 9-9-81 I started a new job within NATO in The Hague. I was introduced to my two new colleagues in a three-man study team – they were both Norwegian. The date is also memorable for a famous first football victory for Norway over England when the Norwegian commentator and national treasure Bjørge Lillelien became overcome with excitement and seemed to think England’s defence comprised Mick Jagger, Maggie Thatcher, Winston Churchill, and Lord Beaverboook. Well, I suppose it could be said that Thatcher did go on to have quite a few other battles against strikers. ‘Maggie Thatcher, can you hear me, your boys took a hell of a beating!’ was his memorable line. On 10-9-81 two bleary eyed gloating Norwegians were distraught to find out their new colleague identified as Welsh.

Twenty years later I became the NATO representative on a technical panel on Modelling and Simulation. The meetings were very formal, had national representatives from all NATO nations and real-time translation between English and French. Each national representative had a miniature national flag displayed in front of him/her while I had the drab NATO flag. It was slightly intimidating at first, but pretty soon I discovered that evenings were much less formal, with football a regular topic. From my second meeting I brought my own little Welsh flag to stand proudly next to the NATO one. I swear many people from France, Romania, Slovenia, and other lands must still believe that Doncaster is in Wales.

This story explains my tagline on this website and fanzine community where for years I have been known as Dutch Uncle: ‘The only Plaid Cymru voting, Dutch speaking, Doncaster Rovers fan living in Bangor, County Down ………. Probably!’ 


Apologies for a long post - it is much abridged from the original

[belton rover]

A particularly interesting topic for me NR, many thanks.

I have done some work on the family tree since retirement some years ago, and after the passing of wife two yeas ago I have joined a group writing memoirs. My whole identity thing has a huge Rovers influence on it, and I did write a bit about that for the Fanzine when Laurie Sheffield passed away. I was born in Wales to a Welsh mother and a Yorkshire father, and we moved to Doncaster when I was 5.  Aged about 10, my father said to me that I would never play for Yorkshire at cricket because I wasn’t born there, so after a few seconds’ thought, I stated, to my father’s amusement and my mother’s pride, that I must be Welsh. Identity solved, but not entirely.

In an effort to be less geeky I started playing sport and going to watch Rovers. I was hooked (first match against Tranmere in FA Cup in 1962 lost 1-4 with 10 men, having has a player carried off with a broken leg). My secondary school friends were not always enthusiastic about my Welsh leanings, but we all happily went to the Rovers together. Then Swansea born Laurie Sheffield arrived and became an immediate star scoring a hatful of goals, indeed the number he scored that season has not been beaten in the sixty years since. But it was his overall impact that was so personally important for me. The good folk of Doncaster and my school friends in particular could realise that good things can come from Swansea, and critically it strengthened my acceptance among them and cemented my feeling of Welsh association.

I enjoyed playing squash and helped by playing against some terrific players at University, my standard rose, but then I left the country for the then squash desert of Germany initially for 2 years and not a day longer. A couple of years later I moved to the Netherlands, for the next 36 years. During this time local squash standards rose, and I was able to win one Welsh Cap, which in my mind cemented my nationality permanently.

My employment in NATO gave me many opportunities to explain the complexity of UK geo-politics and the fact that British does not equal English. On the mathematically interesting date of 9-9-81 I started a new job within NATO in The Hague. I was introduced to my two new colleagues in a three-man study team – they were both Norwegian. The date is also memorable for a famous first football victory for Norway over England when the Norwegian commentator and national treasure Bjørge Lillelien became overcome with excitement and seemed to think England’s defence comprised Mick Jagger, Maggie Thatcher, Winston Churchill, and Lord Beaverboook. Well, I suppose it could be said that Thatcher did go on to have quite a few other battles against strikers. ‘Maggie Thatcher, can you hear me, your boys took a hell of a beating!’ was his memorable line. On 10-9-81 two bleary eyed gloating Norwegians were distraught to find out their new colleague identified as Welsh.

Twenty years later I became the NATO representative on a technical panel on Modelling and Simulation. The meetings were very formal, had national representatives from all NATO nations and real-time translation between English and French. Each national representative had a miniature national flag displayed in front of him/her while I had the drab NATO flag. It was slightly intimidating at first, but pretty soon I discovered that evenings were much less formal, with football a regular topic. From my second meeting I brought my own little Welsh flag to stand proudly next to the NATO one. I swear many people from France, Romania, Slovenia, and other lands must still believe that Doncaster is in Wales.

This story explains my tagline on this website and fanzine community where for years I have been known as Dutch Uncle: ‘The only Plaid Cymru voting, Dutch speaking, Doncaster Rovers fan living in Bangor, County Down ………. Probably!’ 


Apologies for a long post - it is much abridged from the original

A fascinating story, Dutch. Thanks for sharing.

[NickDRFC]

A particularly interesting topic for me NR, many thanks.

I have done some work on the family tree since retirement some years ago, and after the passing of wife two yeas ago I have joined a group writing memoirs. My whole identity thing has a huge Rovers influence on it, and I did write a bit about that for the Fanzine when Laurie Sheffield passed away. I was born in Wales to a Welsh mother and a Yorkshire father, and we moved to Doncaster when I was 5.  Aged about 10, my father said to me that I would never play for Yorkshire at cricket because I wasn’t born there, so after a few seconds’ thought, I stated, to my father’s amusement and my mother’s pride, that I must be Welsh. Identity solved, but not entirely.

In an effort to be less geeky I started playing sport and going to watch Rovers. I was hooked (first match against Tranmere in FA Cup in 1962 lost 1-4 with 10 men, having has a player carried off with a broken leg). My secondary school friends were not always enthusiastic about my Welsh leanings, but we all happily went to the Rovers together. Then Swansea born Laurie Sheffield arrived and became an immediate star scoring a hatful of goals, indeed the number he scored that season has not been beaten in the sixty years since. But it was his overall impact that was so personally important for me. The good folk of Doncaster and my school friends in particular could realise that good things can come from Swansea, and critically it strengthened my acceptance among them and cemented my feeling of Welsh association.

I enjoyed playing squash and helped by playing against some terrific players at University, my standard rose, but then I left the country for the then squash desert of Germany initially for 2 years and not a day longer. A couple of years later I moved to the Netherlands, for the next 36 years. During this time local squash standards rose, and I was able to win one Welsh Cap, which in my mind cemented my nationality permanently.

My employment in NATO gave me many opportunities to explain the complexity of UK geo-politics and the fact that British does not equal English. On the mathematically interesting date of 9-9-81 I started a new job within NATO in The Hague. I was introduced to my two new colleagues in a three-man study team – they were both Norwegian. The date is also memorable for a famous first football victory for Norway over England when the Norwegian commentator and national treasure Bjørge Lillelien became overcome with excitement and seemed to think England’s defence comprised Mick Jagger, Maggie Thatcher, Winston Churchill, and Lord Beaverboook. Well, I suppose it could be said that Thatcher did go on to have quite a few other battles against strikers. ‘Maggie Thatcher, can you hear me, your boys took a hell of a beating!’ was his memorable line. On 10-9-81 two bleary eyed gloating Norwegians were distraught to find out their new colleague identified as Welsh.

Twenty years later I became the NATO representative on a technical panel on Modelling and Simulation. The meetings were very formal, had national representatives from all NATO nations and real-time translation between English and French. Each national representative had a miniature national flag displayed in front of him/her while I had the drab NATO flag. It was slightly intimidating at first, but pretty soon I discovered that evenings were much less formal, with football a regular topic. From my second meeting I brought my own little Welsh flag to stand proudly next to the NATO one. I swear many people from France, Romania, Slovenia, and other lands must still believe that Doncaster is in Wales.

This story explains my tagline on this website and fanzine community where for years I have been known as Dutch Uncle: ‘The only Plaid Cymru voting, Dutch speaking, Doncaster Rovers fan living in Bangor, County Down ………. Probably!’ 


Apologies for a long post - it is much abridged from the original

Great story Dutch but where does the “Uncle” part come from?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Interesting how often "Dutch" comes up on English as an insult.

Dutch Uncle is a stern critic
Dutch Courage is having to get pissed to be brave.

Going Dutch implies stinginess by the host

Dutch Bargain is an agreement where one side gets shafted.

Double Dutch also of course.

Apparently it all goes back to the 1600s when we were regularly at war with the Dutch.

[Sprotyrover]

Interesting how often "Dutch" comes up on English as an insult.

Dutch Uncle is a stern critic
Dutch Courage is having to get pissed to be brave.

Going Dutch implies stinginess by the host

Dutch Bargain is an agreement where one side gets shafted.

Double Dutch also of course.

Apparently it all goes back to the 1600s when we were regularly at war with the Dutch.

You have missed the famous ‘Dutch Auctions’ which used to take place on The Irish Market down from the Kiddies Roundabout! Used to be entertaining to watch!

[drfchound]

Some of you guys should be careful about giving too much personal info out.
There are people out there who make notes and then pretend they know who you are.
What do you reckon BB?

[Sprotyrover]

Oh by the way both my parents were born 800 miles apart and 500 miles East of Dover, neither ever had British Citizenship! They both loved the countries of their birth,They taught me that I was Born in Doncaster, I am a Yorkshireman, an Englishman and that I owed Allegiance to the Sovereign of the United Kingdom, and to no one else! And that I should count myself lucky to be a Citizen of the greatest Nation on this Earth!, God bless them both!
I am proud to be an ‘Island Monkey’ as my beloved Grandmother called me, amongst other things!

[Dutch Uncle]

Interesting how often "Dutch" comes up on English as an insult.

Dutch Uncle is a stern critic
Dutch Courage is having to get pissed to be brave.

Going Dutch implies stinginess by the host

Dutch Bargain is an agreement where one side gets shafted.

Double Dutch also of course.

Apparently it all goes back to the 1600s when we were regularly at war with the Dutch.

I was aware of all these BST, and also 'if that's true I'm a Dutchman', and I knew the adversarial background. However when choosing my handle I decided I wanted the Dutch in there somehow. To answer Nick's question re 'Uncle' - it was very prosaic - I have two brothers, both also Rovers supporters, who have lived in Donny throughout - and just simply I am Uncle to their children.

I guess there is a double meaning there. 

[Dutch Uncle]

Interesting how often "Dutch" comes up on English as an insult.

Dutch Uncle is a stern critic
Dutch Courage is having to get pissed to be brave.

Going Dutch implies stinginess by the host

Dutch Bargain is an agreement where one side gets shafted.

Double Dutch also of course.

Apparently it all goes back to the 1600s when we were regularly at war with the Dutch.

You have missed the famous ‘Dutch Auctions’ which used to take place on The Irish Market down from the Kiddies Roundabout! Used to be entertaining to watch!

Dutch Auctions still happen regularly in the Netherlands, famously very early in the  morning in Aalsmeer where huge numbers of fresh flowers are sold to large retailers

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aalsmeer_Flower_Auction

If you can get up early enough there are often open to the public to watch

[Bentley Bullet]

Interesting how often "Dutch" comes up on English as an insult.

Dutch Uncle is a stern critic
Dutch Courage is having to get pissed to be brave.

Going Dutch implies stinginess by the host

Dutch Bargain is an agreement where one side gets shafted.

Double Dutch also of course.

Apparently it all goes back to the 1600s when we were regularly at war with the Dutch.

I was aware of all these BST, and also 'if that's true I'm a Dutchman', and I knew the adversarial background. However when choosing my handle I decided I wanted the Dutch in there somehow. To answer Nick's question re 'Uncle' - it was very prosaic - I have two brothers, both also Rovers supporters, who have lived in Donny throughout - and just simply I am Uncle to their children.

I guess there is a double meaning there. 

Double Dutch? 

[auckleyflyer]

They must have had a post war north east recruitment drive on at Brody? Grandfather from Horden nr Peterlee, other 3 grandparents from within 5miles of woodlands.
Our Lass is a right mixed bag: Naples/Sheffield x Wigan/Castor (Norfolk).

[Sprotyrover]

They must have had a post war north east recruitment drive on at Brody? Grandfather from Horden nr Peterlee, other 3 grandparents from within 5miles of woodlands.
Our Lass is a right mixed bag: Naples/Sheffield x Wigan/Castor (Norfolk).

When I was a kid I used to love listening to the old Folks with their lovely northern accents!

[Bentley Bullet]

I heard Donnywolf wanted to find out more about his ancestors so he did a bit of digging.......

He ended up getting thrown out of the cemetery.