Syria?...should we Stay or should we go as the song went

[not on facebook]

i think the west should Stay Well clear Of This one for as long as possible,and let the middle East sort it out Their way.

Ok Its not Nice to see kids or whoever suffering from chemical weapons.

but my problem with This situation is that should the west play Its part and the tools that are running Syria Now fall....

...we Cant trust whoever should pick up the task Of Leading Syria afterwards.this could Well come back to hunt the west very very seriously.

The west should only Throw Their Arsenal in When Syria or whoever is planning to use Its chemical  weapons on the west.

backward countrys,run by backward People for backward cultures for backward belivers.large parts Of the middle East are Stuck back in the times Of way way way back.

the CCCP said the right thing 'the west should Get mixed up in the muslim ways '

Ps the song was sung by the  clash

[BillyStubbsTears]

backward countrys,run by backward People for backward cultures for backward belivers.large parts Of the middle East are Stuck back in the times Of way way way back.

The level of ignorance in the West breaks my heart. I used to work with a Syrian bloke. He was in the top 5 most intelligent people I have ever known. He was a kind, generous, cultured family man. He was a devout Muslim, but so what? That doesn't change my assessment of him as a human, or an intellect. Roger Penrose, the world-leading cosmologist at Cambridge University is a devout Catholic, who believes that Jesus Christ came back to life three days after being executed.

We idly proclaim that these Middle Eastern countries are populated and run by pre-modern ignorants, whilst we Westerners are intelligent, rational beings. Funny then, that last year an opinion poll in America found that 46% of the population believed that human beings were placed on the earth in their current state by God within the last 10,000 years, and that evolution is untrue. What is THAT if it's not ignorant religious fundamentalism?

10 years ago, America and Britain rushed headlong into an illegal war that killed 150,000 (mainly innocent) people directly, and probably killed another 1million through economic collapse. What was THAT if it wasn't backward leaders, supported by ignorant, backward people wanting to lash out and hit some f**ker in revenge?

The Syrians have massive problems. They are committing horrific crimes against. Western Europe had horrific problems within living memory and committed horrific crimes humanity. presumably, if we believe that Syrians are backward people, with backward cultures, we believe that x100 for our grandparents' generation, because they did far, FAR worse things to their fellow humans.

[not on facebook]

Bob When you take the whole country and culture  religion and bring it to the table backwards comes to mind.

I worked with a Chap from that neck Of the woods last year for six month.

He would never drink coke because Its american and he was sure that whenever you bought a coke some Of the money went towards the yank WAR effort.

That was just the tip of the ice berg as the longer i knew This Chap he Opened more on what he belived in.

There was a demostration  by shit Loads Of muslims from Scandinavia downtown Oslo.their was to walk to the embassy Of Israel and kick up a Fuss.

Police said that they would only allow 20 marchers to do so The rest would not be allowed to walk by whatever Lines.

a stand off between Police and the anti Israel demestration appeared on the tv screens,and Fcuk me what did the muslims do once the Police changed into riot gear with tear gas launchers as the mob was getting very very anti social.

They pusher shed Loads Of their kids onto the frontline
In the hope that Police would not fire tear gas,whilst others were smashing up shop Windows and throwing all sorts Of shit at the plod line.

And who was seen on tv pushing some kids forward,the fcukwit i work with.

I have Been told that since august he as Been on a 8 week holiday an,d flown back to his home land with his brothers,UNcles and whoever to give helping hand against thr government Of Syria

I hope to god that the stupid fcukers are never let back into europe never mind norway once they have finished,as i hate how Much more ofra risk they might be after spending 8 weeks for Their cause.

there is both good and bad eggs in every religion,but countrys like Syria and others seem to have them en mass.

any government that can Throw chemical weapons around within Its own boarders on Its own so called People is backward

[Glyn_Wigley]

Bob When you take the whole country and culture  religion and bring it to the table backwards comes to mind.

No, it comes to YOUR mind. Don't tar us all with your brush.

[BigColSutherland]

any government that can Throw chemical weapons around within Its own boarders on Its own so called People is backward

Ronald Maddison?

[not on facebook]

Bob When you take the whole country and culture  religion and bring it to the table backwards comes to mind.

No, it comes to YOUR mind. Don't tar us all with your brush.

So what comes to Your mind glyn

'They must be doing it for a laugh'

As i Cant think Of any  reasonable explanation they can
Come out with to defend Their actions

But iam all ears fella to take on board

[Glyn_Wigley]

What comes to my mind is a despotic government that rules through oppressing the populace. Just like lots of other governments throughout the world, including countries that are supposedly enlightened.

What doesn't come to mind is the ignorant stereotyping of a whole country, it's people and it's culture. Now that's 'backward'.

[not on facebook]

What comes to my mind is a despotic government that rules through oppressing the populace. Just like lots of other governments throughout the world, including countries that are supposedly enlightened.

What doesn't come to mind is the ignorant stereotyping of a whole country, it's people and it's culture. Now that's 'backward'.

Its not backwards fella ,Its the fear Of how me kids or me gran kids life will be like should the muslim thinking
Get into Their every day lifes.

Its Been reported other week that some schools in downtown Oslo have taken sauages off Their school menu because the school powers can not cope with the amount Of muslims in certian schools.

A sauasge in lumpa or in Bread is a tad like what fish and chips was to likes of me  and you back in our days
To the norwegian culture.

Look at the new muslim owner at Leeds United,as only
In the papers last week it reported that he is thinking about taking the selling Of all alkohol away from Elland Road because drinking Goes against his religion.

I doubt he will be Able to achive his wish,but the thinking is there.

Where will it end ffs

[wilts rover]

Oslo - bad news for you. The opponents of the Syrian government are the Muslim Brotherhood, these are the fundamentalists that will take your sausages away from you, and any action we take against the government, who are quite 'pro western' in their development of social life - if not political thought - will aid them. Better get the prayer mat out fella, when those bombs start going, that's the end of your bacon sandwiches.....

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

The opponents are probably no better. However if assad gets away with this he'll do it again and then countries like Egypt, Israel or any of them know they can get away with it and will follow suit.

Miliband says he's not seen the evidence. Pretty troubling that he doubts the USA, British intelligence services and his fellow politicians.

I can't believe we could stand by and let over 100000 plus be killed. It doesn't matter where they're from at all they are still people like us.

[BillyStubbsTears]

The opponents are probably no better. However if assad gets away with this he'll do it again and then countries like Egypt, Israel or any of them know they can get away with it and will follow suit.

Miliband says he's not seen the evidence. Pretty troubling that he doubts the USA, British intelligence services and his fellow politicians.

I can't believe we could stand by and let over 100000 plus be killed. It doesn't matter where they're from at all they are still people like us.

BFYP

Hang on a minute. We supported a war in Iraq that destroyed a country and upwards of a million lives on the basis of "intelligence". Labour rightly got panned for that.

You can't have it both ways.

As for us stopping 100,000 getting killed, the military intervention that is proposed will do no such thing. It has got f**k all to do with stopping Assad, not least because the West is terrified of what might replace him. The missile strikes have one purpose and one purpose alone. To get Obama off the hook because he amateurishly gave a hostage to fortune by playing bluff with Assad and losing. Now Obama has to be seen to play the tough guy or lose credibility at home. Cameron has promised Obama that we will support him.

All sound familiar?

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I don't think you quite get where I'm coming from. Iraq was no mistake just implemented so wrongly.  Saddam should've been taken out in the early 90s.  It was awful how they fabricated that stuff that was wrong and would be here.

But what I don't like is Afghanistan was justifiable because of 9/11 but this on a much bigger scale isn't?  Chemical weapons or not something has to be done.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Something has to be done. Firing missiles is something. Therefore we must fire missiles.

Do you see the breakdown in the logic?

Afghanistan was a totally different situation. That was intended to deny the Taliban and Al Qaeda the free rein that they had to plan and launch terrorist attacks. whether it has been successful can be debated, but that was the intention.

Syria is a ferociously complicated situation. We have a (relatively) pro-western leader in place who has actually (by the difficult standards of the region) been relatively restrained. Remove him and you have an identical situation to Iraq. Utter anarchy. Removing him by military force will not stop that Civil War. It will intensify it.

You say that we should have removed Saddam in the 1990s. Maybe. And the result of that would have been? Well, we know, because we saw what the result was when we removed him in 2003. Total, unrestrained f**king carnage.

These are appallingly difficult  situations. The reasons why so many Middle Eastern countries have hard men in charge is precisely because a hard man keeps fratricidal factions apart. Look at Yugoslavia as an example closer to home. They had a hard man, Tito, in power for 40 years after the War. The country was peaceful and relatively successful, if not very free. Within a few years of him dying, the internal tensions in the country resulted in 250,000 people dying.

Removing Saddam did the same. We've f**ked up in Syria in encouraging the opposition to launch a Civil War during the Arab Spring. That has already resulted in 100,000 deaths. Who gave a f**k about that before there were images of kids being gassed? We would do nothing to lessen this mistake by militarily intervening now.

I don;t know what the answer is. I really, really don't. But lobbing a couple of cruise missiles in to salve our consciences and get Obama out of his embarrassment will do f**k all to solve the problem. Taking harder action will make it worse.

[scaley back rover]

Anybody noticed how daft the peace protesters look calling for hands off Syria and no to a possible war? Somebody should tell them that there has been a war there for the past two years , its just that no body has give a f**k about it until now, which is why we are where we are now.

Personnally i think every effort should be made to sort this out without a full world war going off. As i have alluded to in a previous thread something needs to be done but force has to be a last resort . Milliband has called it right so far lets see the full evidence first then go from there. Unfortunatly innocent people may get killed in the mean time , but more lives will be lost if we wade in there. This is a big test for the UN because if member countries go against them as with Iraq it will lose any credibility and any authority it used to have be diminished

[not on facebook]

In the 1960s,1970s,1980s and early part Of the 1990s
The Word muslim was never often used in the british media and papers etc etc.

fcuk me they never worried me back then because they never came to my attention as they must have Been very low Lying in society or still Been cammel jockeys in whatever sand region they lived.

Some 15 years on and they are like dog shit or water as in they are getting everywhere and allways in the media .

I mean schools in Oslo have taken sauages off the menu and it seems that the west is bending over. Backwards whilst Been fcuked silly to tend to Their every single need .

Iam worried shitless for my kids future and it scares me to hell what the next 15 years will bring.

for the record me Sons best mate is a muslim,and the. Lads family seem very approachable and love Øivind in norway and western society.

but there is many many more muslims in western society dragging the likes Of them and Their intergration down and backwards.

They day my Sons bacon SANDWHICH is taken away from them is looming.

[Filo]

The Arab League should take the initiative here, instead of doing what they usually do and sit on their hands and look to the West to sort things out

[wilts rover]

Filo

That's is exactly what I was about to post. The UN should force the Arab League to come together to police their own region, its them who will be hit by the fall out. In fact to put pressure on them we ought to refuse to buy their oil until they do. Can't see any flaws in that myself.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Trouble is, none of the big global powers wants that. They don't want the Arab countries to be independent and able to sort out their own problems. Because that then removes influence of the big global powers.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Blackly humorous listening to the Parliamentary debate (which has been excellent as it happens, in general).

Clegg is supporting the propsed action on behalf of the Govt. The Govt's motion says that there will be no DIRECT action by the UK Govt without them coming back to get Parliament's support. A Labour MP asked if the Govt would come back and ask for Parliament's support if there was an intention to carry out INDIRECT action (presumably, providing logistical support to the Americans and use of Cyprus airbases). Clegg looked incredulous, and said that the question seemed to imply that there was a lack of trust in the Govt's word.

THIS from a man who signed a pledge on video before the Election saying that he would vote against tuition fee rises, then voted for tuition fee rises. A man who campaigned against Austerity, then voted EVERY SINGLE TIME for Austerity policies.

A complete and utter busted flush. An amateur politician playing with the big boys. And he's just lost the vote for the Govt tonight.

[not on facebook]

From what i can grasp if the west dont go in some fcuker will be up in arms as in the lefties

And should the west go then it will be some extrem muslims that will be up in arms

And When i say up in arms on the later,for sure it will
Not be a leftie type

[BillyStubbsTears]

Just by the way. That debate should be watched by anyone who thinks that MPs are grabbing scumbags, only in it for themselves.

MPs have one purpose. They are there to keep the Govt in control and make them answerable. Neuter MPs and the Govt can do what on earth it wants. That was the problem with Blair. He had such a powerful position over his own party that he was bullet proof in Parliament. he could do what he wanted. That is why we ended up at war in Iraq, because Parliament, indivdual MPs, were not strong enough to rein him in.

That Lab MP tonight has shown what MPs can do. They are highly, highly intelligent and skilled people, who can sniff out weaseling. Tonight, taht bloke has sniffed out weaseling and he has skewered Clegg. He brought out into the open that fact that the Govt were hoping to be able to help the American's (by offering them Akrotiri air base for strikes) without Parliament having a chance to decide whether we as a country should be involved. Clegg's fumbling response made it obvious that that was PRECISELY the plan. And he's been exposed. And as a result, the Govt will surely lose the vote.

Brilliant, brilliant stuff and the very highest level of skill and intelligence. We should be proud to be represented by people like that.

[Filo]

Deputy PM is too big a job for Clegg, he`s proved it time and time again, he lets Cameron bully him all the time

[BillyStubbsTears]

Well. There you go. THAT is why Parliament is important. It keeps the Govt in check and stops them doing what they want.

If only we'd had a Parliament as strong 10 years ago.

[ravenrover]

I loved the way Mr Cameroon stomped into No10 last night, I bet that cat took a hell of a kicking.
Poor little spoiled rich kid not got his own way!

[Glyn_Wigley]

Did anyone hear that prize tit Osbourne the morning after the vote saying that Parlaiment should have supported the PMs stance because of how important Syria is to our economy (apparently)? Sums the Tories up, money is more important than morals.

[LincsRover]

We need to stay the hell away from Syria! We can't afford another war, let alone one which would light the powder keg that is the Middle East. It is an unwinnable war (yes, another one like Iraq, Afghanistan etc...). If the yanks and French want to be the world's policemen, let them, and let them face the consequences! We're a small island with no money, an ever decreasing army due to government spending cuts, and no empire any more! If the Tories want to get involved let them send their own sons (an army of officers of course - unfortunately no f*ck*ng use at all without the privates and lower ranks like our families) and leave the army, navy & RAF protecting our little island!!

 

[BobG]

If we can't afford much of an army, it really does beat me why we think we can afford two socking great aircraft carriers AND a replacement for Trident. For goodness sake!..... 

I still can't work out who we're going to nuke. I still can't see why the Americans would refuse to nuke anybody we really wanted to nuke either. Perhaps the answer is the same as with data mining. One side or the other will have rules and oversight that allows the other to get what they want anyway.

BobG