Arriva - derci .... Northern Rail

[Donnywolf]

Good news on the face of it

Arriva will start running the second biggest Rail Franchise from April 2016 with Northern Rail out on their ears

9 year Franchise which will see the end of those bloody Caravans on wheels (by 2019) and a lot of new Carriages and new Services - but this is across a massive area

Now the bad news for some ... they are committed to an Oyster Card system which will probably mean people might have to actually PAY for using the Trains rather than hope they don't have to

I often use the Train Thorne South to Donny or Sheffield and the poor Guard / Ticket Collector just has not got time to collect all the Fares - and the Passengers know it. Sit or stand at the front especially from Kirk Sandall and you are pretty much guaranteed to ride "free" to Donny

On the return journey it is illegal to board a Train without a Ticket because Doncaster has a facility to sell Tickets BUT that does not stop the dodgers / opportunists who can repeat the stand / sit at the front and when the Train reaches Kirk Sandall thy get off having paid nowt to travel. If the Guard happens to get to someone without a Ticket they offer to pay and he / she will sometimes "remind" the person that they should have bougt a Ticket BEFORE boarding the train - but I bet the following journey that still carry on without pre purchasing a Ticket

For me I say roll on April and lets hope pre paying comes sooner rather than later

[Rios]

The caravans on wheels would be replaced anyway as it was a stipulation of the franchise tender.

The fare dodging would be sorted if they put permenant ticket gates at Doncaster, like at Leeds and Manchester Victoria.

Not sure how any of that is the fault of Serco/Arbellio (the current incumbents) though.  I use Northern and First TPX (to get to home games).  Northern normally hitch two trains (caravans) together to provide decent capacity and while the TPX trains are newer, they're hugely overcrowded (even on a Saturday) as they don't have enough units to do hitch two together.  Replacing the current old trains with new ones won't sort the capacity issues out as they're going to order like for like.  I've also used Arriva Trains Wales on occasion and despite having newer units than Northern they're poorly kept, never on time and to me a step backward.

[DonnyRed1992]

Not yet.

East Midlands who own the station want to but Sheffield Council won't let them do it unless they build a new footbridge.

Government gave them money in 2012 but no progress since.

[Donnywolf]

The caravans on wheels would be replaced anyway as it was a stipulation of the franchise tender.

The fare dodging would be sorted if they put permenant ticket gates at Doncaster, like at Leeds and Manchester Victoria.

Not sure how any of that is the fault of Serco/Arbellio (the current incumbents) though.  I use Northern and First TPX (to get to home games).  Northern normally hitch two trains (caravans) together to provide decent capacity and while the TPX trains are newer, they're hugely overcrowded (even on a Saturday) as they don't have enough units to do hitch two together.  Replacing the current old trains with new ones won't sort the capacity issues out as they're going to order like for like.  I've also used Arriva Trains Wales on occasion and despite having newer units than Northern they're poorly kept, never on time and to me a step backward.

Hi - my main beef with Northern Rail is that they COULD collect more fares by adding Manpower. On the West Yorkshire trains I have used they had 2 collectors and also an Inspector got on half way to Huddersfield to check they had been doing their jobs

NR collect via one person who has to be responsible for everything and on busy trains have no chance of getting all the Fares due even if they wanted to. Some of them don't try and often stay in their "office" at the rear of the train thus leaving 70% of passengers carte blanche to ride free

I have written to them several times and had letters in the DFP to no avail ...

Yet NR introduced a Peak Period in the evening to try to maximise takings (whilst failing already to get what they already could)

NR were instrumental in getting Free Train Travel for those with Bus Passes abolished (by hiking their "take" so it could no longer be justified by Local authorities). Yet if they had taken what they were due to from regular customers those concessions might have remained viable. At least the "people" organised / negotiated for the most vulnerable group to be returned to their "free" travel on Trains and the rest now pay half fares

The powers that be also tried to scrap the Manchester Airport Service from Cleethorpes citing "underused" yet Austin Mitchell MP said it was disgusting to think of scrapping it given that people had to stand between Grimsby and Scunny cos it was so FULL and if they don't collect Fares on that train it WILL look empty to the bean counters so they justify cutting the service down in frequency or as they thought of scrapping it altogether. If NR do this on our local trains we too may end up with a lesser crapper service

I too DO wish they would install barriers on Donny Station or adopt a system such as Poland Czech Republic Hungary where you prepay for travel (on trams) and have to validate each time you travel until you need to renew. You get fined heavily if the Police or Inspectors catch you on a journey and you have not stamped your card and tourists often fall foul of this law

I appreciate that their journeys are often flat fares per single trip which would make it easier to administer but I am sure we could come up with a solution in 2015 !
 

[DaveDRFC]

I went to Sheffield and back on the train to a gig the other week, proper pissed me off that I bothered to buy a ticket (as I always do) and didn't get checked either way, especially when the last train back is full of the dregs of society who you know full well haven't bothered to pay. Same thing happened on the train back from the York game earlier in the season. Surely this is one reason the trains are so expensive, those of us who are honest and pay our way have to fork out for the freeloaders.

[Filo]

The caravans on wheels would be replaced anyway as it was a stipulation of the franchise tender.

The fare dodging would be sorted if they put permenant ticket gates at Doncaster, like at Leeds and Manchester Victoria.

Not sure how any of that is the fault of Serco/Arbellio (the current incumbents) though.  I use Northern and First TPX (to get to home games).  Northern normally hitch two trains (caravans) together to provide decent capacity and while the TPX trains are newer, they're hugely overcrowded (even on a Saturday) as they don't have enough units to do hitch two together.  Replacing the current old trains with new ones won't sort the capacity issues out as they're going to order like for like.  I've also used Arriva Trains Wales on occasion and despite having newer units than Northern they're poorly kept, never on time and to me a step backward.

Hi - my main beef with Northern Rail is that they COULD collect more fares by adding Manpower. On the West Yorkshire trains I have used they had 2 collectors and also an Inspector got on half way to Huddersfield to check they had been doing their jobs

NR collect via one person who has to be responsible for everything and on busy trains have no chance of getting all the Fares due even if they wanted to. Some of them don't try and often stay in their "office" at the rear of the train thus leaving 70% of passengers carte blanche to ride free

I have written to them several times and had letters in the DFP to no avail ...

Yet NR introduced a Peak Period in the evening to try to maximise takings (whilst failing already to get what they already could)

NR were instrumental in getting Free Train Travel for those with Bus Passes abolished (by hiking their "take" so it could no longer be justified by Local authorities). Yet if they had taken what they were due to from regular customers those concessions might have remained viable. At least the "people" organised / negotiated for the most vulnerable group to be returned to their "free" travel on Trains and the rest now pay half fares

The powers that be also tried to scrap the Manchester Airport Service from Cleethorpes citing "underused" yet Austin Mitchell MP said it was disgusting to think of scrapping it given that people had to stand between Grimsby and Scunny cos it was so FULL and if they don't collect Fares on that train it WILL look empty to the bean counters so they justify cutting the service down in frequency or as they thought of scrapping it altogether. If NR do this on our local trains we too may end up with a lesser crapper service

I too DO wish they would install barriers on Donny Station or adopt a system such as Poland Czech Republic Hungary where you prepay for travel (on trams) and have to validate each time you travel until you need to renew. You get fined heavily if the Police or Inspectors catch you on a journey and you have not stamped your card and tourists often fall foul of this law

I appreciate that their journeys are often flat fares per single trip which would make it easier to administer but I am sure we could come up with a solution in 2015 !
 

That Cleethorpes Manchester airport service would get more people if it actually stopped at a few stations instead of going through them

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

I have to say I never used to say between Kirk sandall and Doncaster but if I did I didn't mind it's still cheaper and quicker than the bus.

The prices are too high for most trains though really are.

[RedJ]

Compared to train prices on the continent ours are f**king ridiculous.

[Donnywolf]

I went to Sheffield and back on the train to a gig the other week, proper pissed me off that I bothered to buy a ticket (as I always do) and didn't get checked either way, especially when the last train back is full of the dregs of society who you know full well haven't bothered to pay. Same thing happened on the train back from the York game earlier in the season. Surely this is one reason the trains are so expensive, those of us who are honest and pay our way have to fork out for the freeloaders.

I am sure that prepaying would mean some fares could be lowered or "held" or be invested (some of it) in better trains , services and facilities.

The Railway "industry" MUST find a way to actually collect fares - and I have watched enough of some of the Collectors on Northern Rail to know they don't even TRY to collect Fares so the fare dodgers win

They cant really get away without paying on the Bus as the Driver gets the cash as they get on ... and something similar is needed soon

[Dagenham Rover]

Blame a certain Dr Beeching for that Rigo however heres a list of closed lines  some of it actually comes up with interesting little snippets of info

  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_closed_railway_lines_in_Great_Britain

and closed stations

http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/sites.shtml

[podrover73]

I am sure I read somewhere that Doncaster station was due to get an upgrade and that ticket gates would be installed .

Not seen anything lately about any upgrade though

[Donnywolf]

That Cleethorpes Manchester airport service would get more people if it actually stopped at a few stations instead of going through them.

It'd defeat the object of most train companies' selling point, which is 'A to B in under two hours' or whatever. A stop at a station en route adds on at least five minutes to a journey, so I doubt they'd ever go for it.

What frustrates me most about the rail system in this country is that some towns which are geographically close (i.e. Mansfield and Chesterfield, Stevenage and Luton, both about 15 miles apart) take well over an hour to get to on the train.

Imagine the money that could be made by opening up a cross country sort of rail line, as opposed to 'go to the nearest city and catch a connecting service'.

Yes ... but also the Airport Express acts as a feeder Train from Cleethorpes. It calls at all Stations to Scunthorpe where it becomes an Express Service with limited stops,

So those wanting to go to any Station from there that the Express does not stop at (such as Thorne or Conisbrough for example) have to get off and get the Caravan on Wheels / Pacer train.

Similarly coming back all Passengers get to Scunny by Pacer or Express and then join the downgraded Express for all Stations to Cleggy (saves running 2 trains all the way to Cleggy is the theory)

[BobG]

Two good websites those Daggers. Bookmarked. Thank you.

BobG

[Rios]

The caravans on wheels would be replaced anyway as it was a stipulation of the franchise tender.

The fare dodging would be sorted if they put permenant ticket gates at Doncaster, like at Leeds and Manchester Victoria.

Not sure how any of that is the fault of Serco/Arbellio (the current incumbents) though.  I use Northern and First TPX (to get to home games).  Northern normally hitch two trains (caravans) together to provide decent capacity and while the TPX trains are newer, they're hugely overcrowded (even on a Saturday) as they don't have enough units to do hitch two together.  Replacing the current old trains with new ones won't sort the capacity issues out as they're going to order like for like.  I've also used Arriva Trains Wales on occasion and despite having newer units than Northern they're poorly kept, never on time and to me a step backward.

Hi - my main beef with Northern Rail is that they COULD collect more fares by adding Manpower. On the West Yorkshire trains I have used they had 2 collectors and also an Inspector got on half way to Huddersfield to check they had been doing their jobs

NR collect via one person who has to be responsible for everything and on busy trains have no chance of getting all the Fares due even if they wanted to. Some of them don't try and often stay in their "office" at the rear of the train thus leaving 70% of passengers carte blanche to ride free

I have written to them several times and had letters in the DFP to no avail ...

Yet NR introduced a Peak Period in the evening to try to maximise takings (whilst failing already to get what they already could)

NR were instrumental in getting Free Train Travel for those with Bus Passes abolished (by hiking their "take" so it could no longer be justified by Local authorities). Yet if they had taken what they were due to from regular customers those concessions might have remained viable. At least the "people" organised / negotiated for the most vulnerable group to be returned to their "free" travel on Trains and the rest now pay half fares

The powers that be also tried to scrap the Manchester Airport Service from Cleethorpes citing "underused" yet Austin Mitchell MP said it was disgusting to think of scrapping it given that people had to stand between Grimsby and Scunny cos it was so FULL and if they don't collect Fares on that train it WILL look empty to the bean counters so they justify cutting the service down in frequency or as they thought of scrapping it altogether. If NR do this on our local trains we too may end up with a lesser crapper service

I too DO wish they would install barriers on Donny Station or adopt a system such as Poland Czech Republic Hungary where you prepay for travel (on trams) and have to validate each time you travel until you need to renew. You get fined heavily if the Police or Inspectors catch you on a journey and you have not stamped your card and tourists often fall foul of this law

I appreciate that their journeys are often flat fares per single trip which would make it easier to administer but I am sure we could come up with a solution in 2015 !
 

That Cleethorpes Manchester airport service would get more people if it actually stopped at a few stations instead of going through them

The Manchester Airport - Cleethorpes service, which is the one I endure to get to Rovers home games was proposed to terminate at Doncaster and is provided by TPX.  The Doncaster to Cleethorpes portion would then be provided by Northern and call at more stops than the current service does.  So yes Cleethorpes/Grimsby/Scunny would lose the direct train the Sheffield/Manchester but the surrounding local stations (including Stainy, Thorne South, etc) would have benefitted from an increased service.  The TPX services are inter-city services and miss out loads of stops (including Swinton which is large enough to justify calling), not just on the Doncaster to Scunny part of the journey.  I understand why people moaned about losing them to/from Cleethorpes, but the service would have been improved albeit with older trains with a lot more stopping services if they'd gone ahead with it.  Express services are great if you live in a large town or city, but they're crap if you live in a suburb or village where they don't call and stop another local train using that path.

Oh and sticking ticket barriers in at the large stations kills fare dodging stone dead and removes the pressure to collect fares on board.

[bobjimwilly]

Very interesting links DW. Never knew there was a direct service from Thorne to Barnsley; that would have been handy for away games at Oakwell!

[Donnywolf]

Two good websites those Daggers. Bookmarked. Thank you.

BobG

Yes but in the closed Stations I looked straight for Barnby Dun and it does not seem to be there ! Must look again in case I missed it

Kirk Sandall replaced it so its totally not the same Station geographically or nominally

[Donnywolf]

Very interesting links DW. Never knew there was a direct service from Thorne to Barnsley; that would have been handy for away games at Oakwell!

Better still the Rovers Special on the (Friday) night of the famous Barnsley 1 Rovers 5 !!!

[RobTheRover]

Rossington isnt on the list of closed stations.  I vaguely remember it operating when I was a young kid, and certainly remember exploring it's creepy derelict interior as a 10 year old.  It was demolished and the site cleared around 1990 I think.

[Mike_F]

On a similar theme, I heard last week that Peel have bought some land adjacent to the railway near the airport with the rumour that they're building a station there.

The same person told me that there was a 12 year limit on some loans they had to repay from profits which has now expired and made the airport a much better investment for expansion.

[Donnywolf]

On a (collective) roll I thought we were so I looked up Finningley - and bugger it was there !

[Dagenham Rover]

I looked for Edlington/Warmsworth Halt which isn't on the lists and it isn't there, I remember using it for seaside specials with the club trip as a young un.

Obviously not exhaustive but still a pretty good reference point

[Filo]

On a similar theme, I heard last week that Peel have bought some land adjacent to the railway near the airport with the rumour that they're building a station there.

The same person told me that there was a 12 year limit on some loans they had to repay from profits which has now expired and made the airport a much better investment for expansion.

There used to be a temporary platform built for the airshow, near the railway crossing at Blaxton

[drfc1951]

Arriva are owned by German state railway and tpexpress by a French and German company.Will we now subsidise the cheap railfares in those countries?

[Donnywolf]

The Daily Mail reckoned so !

Last night I caught a train to Mexborough from Thorne South along with a mate. It was a 4 Coach affair and I have to say was sparsely populated.

At no point on the journey which was around 40 minutes did the Ticket Collector come to collect any fares at all and I was in the second of the Carriages. Lots of people got on at Donny and they also travelled "free" to Conisbrough and Mexborough and probably beyond that. Passengers are of course supposed to buy a Ticket before Boarding any train with a Ticket Office - like Donny - BUT lots don't as they know they could ride for free

As my mate said I wonder what the people who take the money from him at the end of his shift think when he has next to nothing to hand in ?

[BobG]

Bawtry's not on the list either. But one at the end of a GWR branch line near me that disappeared in the 1960's is there. It's bloody hard to work out where it exactly was actually even though there's a map. Swindon's second station is not in the list either. That's a shame as it was a cracking and pretty long branch line. There's a fragment of it left though as the preserved Swindon and Cricklade Railway. Only snag is, it doesn't actually get as far as Cricklade!

BobG

[RedRover]

I was discussing Arriva replacing Northern Rail just this morning with my dad as there is an article about it in this weeks local paper.

 He lives at Gainsborough and doesn't drive and due to the poor train service the town receives, doesn't get to as many Rover's games as he'd like. He can't go to night matches as the last train back into Gainsborough leaves Retford mid way through the second half. Sunday games although rare are also impossible to get to as the service is practically non existant.

He was just allowing himself to feel slightly elated about the prospect of an improved service and better trains on the line through Lea Rd Station, until he get to the last line of the article where it says that although Arriva will be taking over the running of the line next April, nothing will be happening in terms of improvements until 2019!

[Mike_F]

Bawtry's not on the list either. But one at the end of a GWR branch line near me that disappeared in the 1960's is there. It's bloody hard to work out where it exactly was actually even though there's a map. Swindon's second station is not in the list either. That's a shame as it was a cracking and pretty long branch line. There's a fragment of it left though as the preserved Swindon and Cricklade Railway. Only snag is, it doesn't actually get as far as Cricklade!

BobG

I'd say the fact that it does go to Swindon is a pretty big drawback too!