Proportional Representation (new attempt)

[Donnywolf]

I started a thread on PR - and it did not take long till it became our 3rd B****t Thread so I have started i going again because I for 1 am interested
I have abandoned the other thread but will copy any PR things (and the Posters name(s)) and hopefully we can get to it again.
Here is my opening post
I am guilty of "plugging" this again and again. I never truly understood it until I did if that make sense
Just wondered what other people thought about it and importantly if we as a Nation want it how we ever get it BECAUSE if the process of Leaving the EU is anything to go by it would take forever
The 2 main Parties are the main beneficiaries of our unjust First Past the Post system so they will be hard to crack that is for sure  !

There is the Twitter feed here of Make votes Matter so I can butt out now
https://twitter.com/MakeVotesMatter

[Donnywolf]

From Big fat yorkshire pudding


Pros and cons isn't there.  The big point against is the likely number of coalitions which historically don't go down well in the UK.  How many seats would ukip have had in the past for example....

[Donnywolf]

From BST


BFYP.

We've had minority, Govts, or Govts with extremely slim majorities that constrained their freedom to act for 19 of the past 45 years (74-79, 92-97, 10-19). And that's under our FPTP, the one argument for which is that it is supposed to deliver strong and stable Govt...

There is no practical or moral argument against PR. UKIP SHOULD have got a lot of seats in 2015 with the votes they got.

PR would enable the two main parties to split and produce the 5 natural parties that we should have in England (Corbynista Left, Ed Milliband-type Left, Centrist, Ken Clarke-type Tory, Ress-Mogg-type Tory/UKIP).

Then we'd all be able to vote for something much closer to what we actually believe in, and coalition Govts would naturally emerge. Our politics would be far more grown up. Take Brexit. Those 5 parties would all be able to campaign for what they really believe (the far-left and far-right FOR Brexit, the other three against) without having to worry about alienating supporters.

[Donnywolf]

From IDM


PR is fair IMHO when it comes to choosing the government and the constitution of parliament - however - you could end up with towns being represented by an MP of a minorty party locally, due to how the seats are allocated..

[Donnywolf]

From Redj


That would require an elected head of state, I think.

That or you change the way the PM is chosen, as at the moment it's just the head of whoever wins/can form a majority bloc.

[Donnywolf]

From Glyn_Wigley 3 contributions
How would the people get rid of an MP they don't like under PR?


It's called Separation Of Powers, and most countries have it, we're the ones who are the anomaly.



A symbolic Head Of State, just for ceremonial purposes, can be anybody you like. If they've no power why would they need to be elected? I once suggested the Lord Mayor Of London - the job is exactly the same, just covering the country and not just London.

[Donnywolf]

From Campsall Rover

I thought the topic was about Proportional Representation.
There is another one called Brexit!!!
So back to PR.
I think in theory it is a good idea but it is very dangerous because it could give minority parties & groups like the National Front seats in parliament.
Germany in the 1930’s. We don’t need that thankyou very much.
So while our present system may not seem the most fair one it is a system that protects us from the extreme right & left of politics.

[Donnywolf]

From Ldr

Wolfie,  PR is the only way forward and would force consensus politics rather than the polarisation we have now

[Bentley Bullet]

Anyway BST, about this Brexit lark .....................



Only joking Wolfie 

[Donnywolf]

From me

I vote this thread is for the discussion of PR in all its forms !

I am 67 almost 68 and for my first 30 years was oblivious to PR - then I used to laugh at John Cleese coming on and singing its praises on behalf of The Liberals

I used to say to the TV - well you would want that as you cant win any other way. The older I got (darent say wiser) I took more interest in all Politics and PR in particular

I staarted this thread because there are more and more pressure groups out there like Make Votes Matter who are dedicated to PR and personally I hope they pull it off. If the Tories dont like it and Labour dont like it I understand that. They have the most to lose. Sure they might carry the Country by 42% as Thatcher did with a landslide but that is not good for us as people

42 pc wanted the Tories 58 pc did not so lots of the 58 are unrepresented. Lots of younger voters especially those "stuck" for instance in South Yorkshire where Labour hold all the Seats with 57% of the Vote openly say "no point Voting - my vote does not count"

So I wanted to throw this out there and if possible through discussions learn a bit more myself - and if some of the "my vote does not count people" read this Thread maybe they will be more advanced understanding wise as I was at their age

One last thing - if PR (in whatever from is used) is so good for most modern democracies why have we "The mother of Parliaments" lagged so far behind in its adoption

[RedJ]

European Parliament uses PR doesn't it?

[Donnywolf]

Sure does

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/en/your-meps/european_elections/the_voting_system.html

Every bit of PR thread now transferred to here

[Glyn_Wigley]

Sure does

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/unitedkingdom/en/your-meps/european_elections/the_voting_system.html

Every bit of PR thread now transferred to here

Apart from the question I asked twice but nobody answered!

[Donnywolf]

Sorry - thought I had got the lot ? I have 2 of yours above reply #5

If not those what Number was it / them and I will bring it / the over.

[Glyn_Wigley]

#6

[Donnywolf]

Sorted - bunged em all on Reply 5 on here.

Sorry missed that one somehow but in truth brain fried trying to sort the PR from the EU !

[IDM]

I know how the current system works, but it is still odd that a party being elected with a majority of seats can have achieved well under half the actual votes (usually in the 40s percents.?) ie more than half the voters voted against the winners, let alone those who didn’t vote.!

[BillyStubbsTears]

Wolf.
You ever read The State We're In by Will Hutton?

25 years old, and it gets a bit dense at times, but he clearly set out all the problems with our method of Govt that have caused us problems over the next quarter century.

A massively non-linear relationship between popular vote share and Parliamentary power.

That encourages politicians not to seek compromise and wide appeal, but to secure just enough votes to get a working majority in the House.

A neutered Parliament that can't keep a Govt in check when the Govt does have a majority.

Govts having no idea how to build consensus in Parliament when they don't have a majority.

Everything comes down to our dysfunctional electoral system.

[Donnywolf]

No I will give it a go - thanks !

[Axholme Lion]

Anything to break the LibLabCon stranglehold and give populist parties a chance would be good.

[Glyn_Wigley]

Anything to break the LibLabCon stranglehold and give populist parties a chance would be good.

They got 90% of the votes between them at the last election. The regional parties would get wiped out and those three would be the winners.

[Mr1Croft]

I've always liked the idea of scrapping elections all together and holding a lottery where any citizen can be chosen at random to be an MP. Similar to Jury Service.

The only people suitable for power are those that don't seek it.

[Glyn_Wigley]

I've always liked the idea of scrapping elections all together and holding a lottery where any citizen can be chosen at random to be an MP. Similar to Jury Service.

The only people suitable for power are those that don't seek it.

That's how the ancient Greeks did it.

[Donnywolf]

I've always liked the idea of scrapping elections all together and holding a lottery where any citizen can be chosen at random to be an MP. Similar to Jury Service.

The only people suitable for power are those that don't seek it.

I always think of the Groucho Marx quote that said :

"PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESIGNATION. I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER".