A big conundrum for the club

[selby]

  Is  the bringing through players from the academy and younger players from other especially cat 1 academies.
  Most who went to the youth cup game would have been impressed by the difference in the quality of the Aston Villa team all round to our own, but as holders of the cup obviously the very top of the tree so no surprise there.
  But it really is not at this level where our problems manifest themselves, its that jump from u18s to first team squad we expect youngsters to make with no u21s team.
  And that hits the buffers more or less straight away, the first problem is is the manager willing to play youth, mostly no,  how do we get around that well we try and get them out on loans that will progress them, again is the manager willing to play youth, well Armstrong at Gateshead is mostly a no preferring to play a 35 year old instead of Flint even though results are poor.
  Do we go for loans from Cat 1 clubs well yes they are cheap but for every good one we have had more poor ones themselves not ready for first team football so over time some excellent ones have been the minority and won't stay here because they have been a success and other clubs step in.
  Meanwhile we give just a couple of pro contracts a year to youngsters because there is no u21s and we can loan cat1 good enough or not as cheap but their clubs demand game time and the manager who doesn't trust youth is obligated to play some loan players, from bigger clubs.
  It's a viscous circle for the manager, makes the club unattractive to cat1 youngsters released at 19 because of no u21s, and our own youngsters are also disadvantaged because of lack of trust in youth.
   We have had just a couple of managers who didn't go down that route in my lifetime the great Peter Doherty and Billy Bremner probably the stand out ones with one or two others who trusted youth and took the bull by the horns and threw them in, and probably my most enjoyable times watching the Rovers.
  We need to look seriously where we are going with recruitment right through the club, but also have a pathway which at the moment is broken for youngsters to actually achieve their ceiling as players IMHO.
  Its stunting the club in two ways, our own talent have a mountain to climb at a three year disadvantage to players from other academies with few getting that pro contract just 1 or 2 a season at 18 and only loans out to play a higher standard than u18s to learn their trade.
  Secondly we only get cat 1 players released as not good enough for the top sides who hit the same problem, look at it and go elsewhere, and the reason we have had very few players in the last few seasons who have come from cat 1 clubs if not loaned to us by their original club plus managers look for tried and tested 23+ experience the easy option but not always that great and looking for clubs for a reason.
 

[GazLaz]

The optimal strategy, from a football perspective, would be to get rid of the academy and have a "B" team type of approach. This would be hugely more advantageous but more costly as well.

The thing that having a youth team/ academy brings is that link to the community. Giving local lads a chance to represent their local team, even if the chance of making it as a "pro" is around zero.

[keith79]

It would cost millions to move up a cat

[DonnyBazR0ver]

I think it would take a very bold decision and one that would have to be sustained with real committment to garner any credibility and results. Results being youth being filtered into the first team squad. We've seen our squad grow where we have two players for each position. I think it would take TB & GB to insist a number of those squad positions be taken up by 'youth', so there's a clear pathway.

The risk of course is what it would take financially to sustain that approach, and what that would do to the strength of our squad. We as fans would have to sign on to it and accept the risks however, given what we've seen from the young loans, like Yeboah and Ajayi for example,  that might not be so difficult.

Other risks of course, are good players being hoovered up by bigger teams who are prepared to pay the compensation.

Without full costings and a strategy it's beyond what we, the average fan, can comprehend.

[selby]

  Rather than expecting the club to go cat2 or 1 I was more pointing out the  problem the club have  which supporters saw for themselves against Aston Villa of getting the very best young players
  It is now unrealistic  more because of the way the game even at youth level is completely sided with the big clubs and their money, and the fact they can come along and just cherry pick any players they want from clubs like ours and is one of the main aims to generate income clubs like ours now have,
  Just weeks ago there was a thread on here about Wolves having a feeder club at Wath, and we ourselves had a feeder club at Thorne Moorends  that played in the Yorkshire league  near the canal bridge behind a pub.
  A  production line clubs had that allowed an introduction to mens football within the professional clubs control and not available now.

[Chris Black come back]

There are lots of very good social and emotional reasons to having a youth set up and maybe investing more might have better outcomes, but how many substantive (ie spent several years in the set up rather than landing late after exit elsewhere and when they could feasibly have gone into a ‘B’ team set up if we had one) youth team players have made the first team for a decent number of games, and been monetised?

[selby]

  Its a discussion to have for every club like ourselves where monetising young players really is the main aim, gone are the days of players starting out and finishing careers at one club, mainly exactly for that reason, if not by the club then because the agents want a cut of things.
  Things change and not always for the better, it is all the here and now and keep the big riches within a certain circle of clubs and individuals and  that is at every level of the game including youth.

[Chris Black come back]

Even if a lad makes it into the first team there is a cost associated with the development of that lad, so there isn't anything as simple as a free player. But having a youth lad make it into the first team is probably the lowest cost option we could have, so as long as the lad is there on merit, that is an efficient way of populating the first team. In addition to this, being able to then sell them later is an objective also. Even managing the first would be a step forward from where we have traditionally been in recent decades.

[selby]

 CBcb, bang on.

[graingrover]

I think we have to believe we are a Community club which means nurturing our own youngsters .

[DonnyNoel]

We have problems with our history and geography in this sense and they both make a kind of vicious cycle. Geographically - there are some exceptional youth setups on our door step. Whilst I was impressed with the team on Monday, I would imagine (hope even) that there are better Doncaster born 18 year olds out there about to step into the professional game. Historically, our professional output is poor. Who's out there that's playing regularly even in L2 from our setup?

Given our stature, for us to be making it in the Championship we have to have some kind of setup that yields either players or cash. I'm not convinced we can get our own youth system to that point given where we are now and the fact it's been like that since the early 90's so maybe the cast offs are the way to go. And thats not a criticism of them btw, just more an acknowledgement that Leeds et al sign up any 10 year old that can trap a ball.

[number19]

We might as well give it up based on how many actually make the step up to first team footy.
Middleton is possibly the one that played the most, but for me was a bit limited and his career didn't exactly kick on once his 'one of our own' status wore off.
Isn't great to say, but the likes of Mandeville, Lund, Horton, Amos, Greaves, Hasani, Ravenhill, Jones, Woodman, Peterson, Ball have hardly been losses.
Time will tell if Faulkner, Flint & Straughan-Brown go on to make an impact at Rovers. I wouldn't be putting £20 on any of them making it to 50 appearances tbh.
A few years back the one I thought looked like he might kick on and had a bit about him was Will Longbottom, but he never made it back to league footy, despite doing alright in non league.

Must be disheartening though for some of our young players to see the dross we keep signing on loan being given chances. Ajayi, Olusanya, Yeboah, Roberts and Sotona, before you even get to the likes of Vilca and Cukur.

[selby]

  Mandeville and Middleton were non other than the lack of man management by the then manager Ferguson who wrecked them lads off the field.
  Lund about the same time was a career ending injury down to a kick in the kidneys that robbed him of two years development and looked even more serious at one time.
  One of the worst fouls ignored and unpunished by the referee during a game I have ever seen.
  Mandeville must be Ferguson's biggest failure in his career as a manager and I often wonder just how many budding careers have been stunted by men in football like him.
  And if you want to take that £20 bet on Faulkner with the money going to the Youth team feel free. 

[number19]

Wasn't there a lot of talk about Mandeville and Lund indulging in a bit too much booze when Fergie was in charge.
Being out of favour under one manager shouldn't ruin a career. Mandeville has gone on to make nearly 150 appearances in the FL which is a lot more than probably anyone from our academy has in the last decade or so I'd imagine.
You can have the £20 bet on Faulkner, remind me when he makes that 50th appearance.

[GazLaz]

  Mandeville and Middleton were non other than the lack of man management by the then manager Ferguson who wrecked them lads off the field.
  Lund about the same time was a career ending injury down to a kick in the kidneys that robbed him of two years development and looked even more serious at one time.
  One of the worst fouls ignored and unpunished by the referee during a game I have ever seen.
  Mandeville must be Ferguson's biggest failure in his career as a manager and I often wonder just how many budding careers have been stunted by men in football like him.
  And if you want to take that £20 bet on Faulkner with the money going to the Youth team feel free. 

I dont think you can blame the managers. The club are responsible for youth development. For it to be truly successful it has to be our primary objective, and its not. Thats fair enough, we value other stuff over youth development, thats fine,

[selby]

  He is on 21 with the Rovers and 11 with Harrogate now so a good start I will be fair to you and limit it to Christmas 26 done.