Maybe it's old age

[Barmby Rover]

Frddie Trueman,Geoff Boycott,Bobby Moore,Geoff Hurst,Nobby Stiles,Alan Pascoe,David Hemmery,Mary Peters,the list could go on. All these folks never became multimillionaires during their sporting lifetime, and yet they all seemed to be bigger people than the pampered overpaid underwhelming spoilt brats who choose to blame their spectators rather than themselves if they failed.

It is about time the current crop get some sort of reality check by finding out that teams will not just lie down and let you run all over them because you play in the Prem. Without their more talented foreign friends to back them up and make them look good they are finding out just what a bunch of mediocre also rans they are. Perhaps it is time to reassess what has been done to our national game by the money men and the power of the Murdoch press.

[CusworthRovers]

Too true, but it would fall down to that old chestnut of different era, different scenario.

Had the above named been at the top of their game now, then would they become pampered chuffs?

Or had the money/media circus been around then........etc etc

Having read their biographies and books on YCCC, I would suggest Truman and Boycs were  pampered and stamped their feet to get their own way types. Both resolute, hard bitten blinkered characters though and above all good cricketers.

Bobby Moore without a shadow of doubt loved the nightlife and celebrity status back then, so god only knows how he would have been now.

[jucyberry]

Money taints, it's as simple as that.

For the majority of these players who come from poor or ordinary stock the head turning must be phenominal. Money doesn't breed taste or sense, you only have to watch cribs to see what the average person turned superstar thinks of as class..

How many of you watched the wags special on Come Dine With Me last week...? pretty girls, but as vaccously simple as you could ever wish to meet in the market on a saturday  morning.

there is something intrinsically  wrong when a man can put in such a lackluster performance yet be paid more than the Prime Minister for doing so the rest of the year.

perhaps the answer would be to stop using the thoroughbreads and start using the pit ponies, hard grafting class players from the real league teams, not the tainted slightly off cream of the premier crop?

[Filo]

jucyberry wrote:

Money taints, it's as simple as that.

For the majority of these players who come from poor or ordinary stock the head turning must be phenominal. Money doesn't breed taste or sense, you only have to watch cribs to see what the average person turned superstar thinks of as class..

How many of you watched the wags special on Come Dine With Me last week...? pretty girls, but as vaccously simple as you could ever wish to meet in the market on a saturday  morning.

there is something intrinsically  wrong when a man can put in such a lackluster performance yet be paid more than the Prime Minister for doing so the rest of the year.

perhaps the answer would be to stop using the thoroughbreads and start using the pit ponies, hard grafting class players from the real league teams, not the tainted slightly off cream of the premier crop?

I would n`t call Wayne Rooney a thoroughbred, he`s from a run down area of Liverpool, infact I would n`t call any Scouser a thoroughbred! mongrel would be a better description

[CusworthRovers]

Agreed. There was a piece in the paper last week where this Scouser took his wife to the doctors. She had no front teeth, 2 black eyes, busted nose and broken fingers. The Doc asked him 'what's happened here then?'. The Scouser replies 'she's just started going through the change Doc'. The Doc says 'Well to be honest, those are not true signs of going through the change'. The Scouser retorts 'well they are when it's in my f**king pocket'.

[RedRover45]

jucyberry wrote:

Money taints, it's as simple as that.

For the majority of these players who come from poor or ordinary stock the head turning must be phenominal. Money doesn't breed taste or sense, you only have to watch cribs to see what the average person turned superstar thinks of as class..

How many of you watched the wags special on Come Dine With Me last week...? pretty girls, but as vaccously simple as you could ever wish to meet in the market on a saturday  morning.

there is something intrinsically  wrong when a man can put in such a lackluster performance yet be paid more than the Prime Minister for doing so the rest of the year.

perhaps the answer would be to stop using the thoroughbreads and start using the pit ponies, hard grafting class players from the real league teams, not the tainted slightly off cream of the premier crop?

 Funny that, talking to a bloke at work this morning who didnt like football and honestly didnt know the score.
 After telling him about the score andperformance, his first comment was 'drop them First Division prima donnas and play the better players out of the Second Division then'......

 Thought he said he knew nothing about football, I couldnt have summed it up better myself...........

[Old Popsider]

To me it seems that the England team is suffering because of the lack of English players in the Premiership.

It's blindingly obvious that the likes of Rooney, Carragher,Lampard and the rest who are playing alongside foreign players, who are also national side players, and almost certainly play under a foreign manager, do not know how to gel with other English players as they are all playing different styles of football as dictated by the manager and to a certain extent their team-mates.

It must be brought in that any club may only have up to 5 foreign players in their squad. That way at least whoever is the National team manager stands a chance of having a squad of players who might just understand the English way of playing football. Maybe it's time that the next England manager is English also?

Last night's English performance was far far from satisfactory, and in all seriousness, I think if SOD had put out his best Rovers side against that England team the Rovers would have put them to shame. Even more than Algeria did.

[CusworthRovers]

To add weight to this argument that seems to be forming, ie to blame the foreigners in our league and our lads more concerned for the money attitude, we must first eliminate the Brazil, Argentina factor. That factor being that these 2 have arguably been the 2 strongest teams over the last 30yrs, and yet all their players have chased the money and gone to Europe (most at different clubs and countries, so imagine how diluted that might be), yet when they play for their mother countries they gel together instantly.

This instantly kills the argument many of you seem to want to put forward. If you can answer the above and seperate it from your England synopis, then I'll be with you. Until then I'll stick with my own:

....it's a psychological thing. We are a Nation of praising runners ups. We are not competetive enough and we do not heap praise on winners (from a young age to adults). We do not celebrate winning teams or individuals in the correct way, we merely try to turn them into superstars for other things rather than what they are actually a superstar for, we knock them down too readily. We have an absolutely shite media system that is forming the very fabric of our society and making it all that is bad and really dumbing us down.

What gets me is that 2 nations have stood up well in Football over the years ie Germany and Italy. I would argue that over recent times, both of these do well in Footy competitions, yet neither have had any players (Ballack, who's been thrown out now anyway, Cannavaro ditto and neither were regulars) that would get anywhere near, or have got near breaking into a team in the upper half of the Prem or La Liga, or the strongest team in Europe at that time. Neither of these countries have/have had stand out players over recent times, yet as a team together, always seem to produce on the big stage. Is it tactics and coach?....possibly, but we have had some of the so called best coach's in the world in recent years for England, but zilch in terms of success. I would say more than likely no. Klinsman, was an un-tried, no managerial or coaching skills type of bloke, yet still took Germany to 3rd in 2006, and only lost out in the last minute of extra time to a place in the final. Why??? Italy were not that good a side in 2006 yet won it. Why???. I put it down to a pride, in built belief, in the blood doctrine that they must win as a team, a National thing.

In all honesty, I don't know the answer, to any of the above......I'm just a bit sceptical of blaming it on money or foreigners. From 74-86, there was no money or foreigners in the game, yet these are arguably the darkest years in English national football.

[Nudga]

I simply think we missed a trick with not giving Harry Redknapp the England managers job. His teams know how to get around the back of a defence and his players love to play for him. I 've got a feeling that Capello has ruined the team spirit and drained the passion out of this team.

[DonnyNoel]

I think longer term we have to re-re-re-analyse what we do at grass roots level and bring in SODs mantra about performances vs results at a young age.

England's ball retention and technical ability has stalled of late (you only have to look at how \"different\" DRFCs style of play is to the norm) and if you go through the squads technical ability then there aren't that many players there who have that little bit of nous to unlock a rigid defence.

We think we have top players because of what they do at club level - we've got midfielders who score 15+ goals a season but when you go and analyse who they score against.... I don't watch much Premiership football but of the top Champions League and \"Top 4/Super Sunday\" Prem games I've seen I don't recall an Englishman taking them by the scruff of the neck and bossing the game.Its usually a bit of brilliance by a Torres/Drogba/Arshavin type player but as long as Gerrard keeps banging them in against Hull and Burnley....

Short term, I wouldn't like to suggest a solution, I wouldn't necessarily go with an English boss but think we would definitely need a manager from the Premiership who sees how to get the best out of these players.

Longer term, lets teach kids to pass and move! Its a long time since I played junior football (as I'm 29!) but back then it was all about pace and the odd good player dribbling through 5 midgets. As my age group is now at the top of their game you can see where that has got us on the world stage!

[DonnyNoel]

As for the money argument I'm kind of with Cussy on that - after all there will be many millionaires at this world cup from many nations. If you think £1m a year is \"only\" £20k p/w - how many players at the world cup will be on that considering a lot of them are playing top flight football across Europe?

[jucyberry]

Perhaps it comes down to how hungry they are..

Nudga is right tho, we are a nation of also rans, sadly it would seem in most walks of life not just in football.

[Pintolager]

For me, there are a number of reasons as to why England are not performing in this and other World Cups! As Cussy says, alot of it is Psychological - do we English really have a winners mentality for one? Because of the press/fans expectations there is going to be more pressure and over the years the football team has failed to live upto expectations. This doesn't just apply to football but other sports eg why did Tim Henman never win Wimbledon, he had talent, but froze in the spotlight...semi final against Ivanisevic for one?? and I do wonder if Andy Murray really can handle the pressure! Back to football though and another reason could be preparation. Previously teams such as Germany, Italy, Brazil and Argentina have struggled to qualify for the big tournaments but when these tournaments have started, they have grown in confidence and maybe are prepared for the task ahead - maybe a team spirit or careful planning by individual organisations. The argument about foreigners in the Prem is also a valid one for me, as it does limit the number of youngsters coming through the system. Franz Beckenbauer is right when he says we have gone backwards and there is not the depth in this country. DonnyNoel also has a point about teaching kids about passing and movement, how many players have enough technical ability to compete at the highest level.

Basically, in a general sense this country has stood still while others have moved forward and we do need to change our thinking!

[CusworthRovers]

I think somebody posted about the Ajax system of nurturing talent and it was a damn fine read.

There the philosophy is touch, control, movement, vision.

In our system, and I'm involved at this level and how kids are talent spotted, it's more on size and power. Don't get me wrong, they have little bits of the above factors, but these kids just dominate the smaller ones and dictate games, simply because of their size and power. That's easy to do at junior level. Again, you will find kids who have been ruthlessly coached by dad in the garden and then beat 7 kids picking their noses or playing conkers during a game. These kids do not pass, never look up and more than likely have little technical ability, other than they are faster than all the other kids and able to knock a ball past them and run. You find these kids will be picked out by local clubs and pro clubs, and the ones who are graced with vision, control, skill and technical ability will be left behind, simply due to them being a little more timid in the tackle, or not be able to run like the wind past 5 players, all due to them being smaller or slimmer ie the kids who look 4 yrs older will go through on power alone as they will dominate games at a younger age, or score more goals at a younger age. Dominate games and score goals equals results and that's all they see to care about.



Again, the Ajax quote was 'they want the kids that have the vision, control and technical ability'. Size/fitness is something that is temporary at that age, and the others will catch them up by nature. It's the ones with all the right attributes that you cannot buy at a young age and this needs nurturing properly. They only play 4 a side practice games in tight confines and have walls all around the pitch to bounce the ball off and control it. It's all pass and move and no goals or positions for a great deal of what they do at their ages.

The Ajax method kinda works IMO

[Barmby Rover]

Pintolager wrote:

For me, there are a number of reasons as to why England are not performing in this and other World Cups! As Cussy says, alot of it is Psychological - do we English really have a winners mentality for one? Because of the press/fans expectations there is going to be more pressure and over the years the football team has failed to live upto expectations. This doesn't just apply to football but other sports eg why did Tim Henman never win Wimbledon, he had talent, but froze in the spotlight...semi final against Ivanisevic for one?? and I do wonder if Andy Murray really can handle the pressure! Back to football though and another reason could be preparation. Previously teams such as Germany, Italy, Brazil and Argentina have struggled to qualify for the big tournaments but when these tournaments have started, they have grown in confidence and maybe are prepared for the task ahead - maybe a team spirit or careful planning by individual organisations. The argument about foreigners in the Prem is also a valid one for me, as it does limit the number of youngsters coming through the system. Franz Beckenbauer is right when he says we have gone backwards and there is not the depth in this country. DonnyNoel also has a point about teaching kids about passing and movement, how many players have enough technical ability to compete at the highest level.

Basically, in a general sense this country has stood still while others have moved forward and we do need to change our thinking!

Just today, in between halves I was looking at ceefax. A little story on there saying that Trevor Brooking is worried that there isn't a next generation coming through to replace the \"golden generation\" finishing off here. I wonder why? Plenty of folks would argue that we need to limit the number of foreign players in SQUADS not teams, maybe a five maximum. The system operates quite successfully in cricket, and ensures young players can come through and learn. The needs of the national game should come way before the needs of Sky and the Premiership, but I suppose it depends whose palms are greased in the FA and Football League amongst the blazers who control the game. That same old boys brigade made sure that JR didn't get onto the board of the FA, I guess he is seen as an \"outsider\" who might start asking awkward questions. It does make you wonder what goes on in those cosy little meetings.

[BobG]

Some interestsing thoughts on this thread. Whilst I agree with quite a few of them, I'll add a couple of others:

1) England teams, for 40 years or more now, have disliked individuality; outrageous talent if you like. Just think of the stunning players who never had a proper look in over that time: Stan Bowles, Tony Currie, Duncan Mackenzie, Rodney Marsh, Matt leTissier to name just five. You may say there were lazy, unreliable. Maybe they all were: but without that outrageous talent, we end up with a team of fit automatons. And I suspect that players like these are not picked simply because the coach, whoever he is, is all too aware that his job, his career, his reputation, hangs by a thread. hence they all go for predictability in the teams they choose.
2) The FA. Says it all really. A more incompetanr, selfish, self interested and short sighted bunch of people is, I think, impossible to imagine. Just think about the new Wembley and the Burton on Trent facility if you really need an example.

Cheers

BobG

[CusworthRovers]

I agree Bob; I'll go first and throw my first card in with this ante:


Carlton Palmer

[RobTheRover]

Geoff Thomas

[CusworthRovers]

Nice match for Plug and a most predictable response. Try meeting this Robot god.....................


Andy Sinton

[BobG]

I'll raise you one Paul Madeley and see you with the unlikely Trevor Cherry.

BobG

[RobTheRover]

I'll raise your Trevor Cherry to a John Fashanu!  Awooooga!

[BobG]

I'll see you with a Michael Gray then.

BobG

[CusworthRovers]

Some good cards coming out here boys.

Is it too early to throw in an Ian Ormenrod ?

[BobG]

Oh. Right then. I'll see you with David Armstrong. Bonzer eh?!

BobG

[CusworthRovers]

Steve Froggatt paired with a Peter Withe perhaps