At least the Lib-Dems have 2 mp`s with principles!

[Filo]

whether tuition fees are right or wrong at least 2 lib-dems have got the guts to stand by the pledge they signed, and resigned from their ministerial position in protest which is more than can be said for their turncoat leader!

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Filo wrote:

whether tuition fees are right or wrong at least 2 lib-dems have got the guts to stand by the pledge they signed, and resigned from their ministerial position in protest which is more than can be said for their turncoat leader!

Fair play to them, whether politicians make the decisions we want or not, if they stick to the principles we voted them on then we cannot really complain.

Though I don't think these students are being at all fair with using that as an excuse for their moronic behaviour.  For allegedly clever people they're acting stupid by not realising the thing actually means they'll be better off.

[mushRTID]

Did anyone see the rioting santa on the news??

Made me laugh (im easily amused).

[VikingJames]

The bloke who abstained from the vote should resign as well. It's a complete cop out when your duty as an MP is to vote for what you believe in, regardless of whether it upsets your party or not.

[RedJ]

VikingJames wrote:

The bloke who abstained from the vote should resign as well. It's a complete cop out when your duty as an MP is to vote for what you believe in, regardless of whether it upsets your party or not.

If you mean Huhne, he was in Mexico.

The rebels were: Annette Brooke (Dorset Mid & Poole North), Sir Menzies Campbell (Fife North East), Michael Crockart (Edinburgh West), Tim Farron (Westmorland & Lonsdale), Andrew George (St Ives), Mike Hancock (Portsmouth South), Julian Huppert (Cambridge), Charles Kennedy (Ross, Skye & Lochaber), John Leech (Manchester Withington), Stephen Lloyd (Eastbourne), Greg Mulholland (Leeds North West), John Pugh (Southport), Alan Reid (Argyll & Bute), Dan Rogerson (Cornwall North), Bob Russell (Colchester), Adrian Sanders (Torbay), Ian Swales (Redcar), Mark Williams (Ceredigion), Roger Williams (Brecon and Radnorshire), Jenny Willott (Cardiff Central), and Simon Wright (Norwich South).

Good to see other Lib Dems sticking to their principles.

Even some bloody Tories voted against -

Six Tories voted against the government. They were: Philip Davies (Shipley), David Davis (Haltemprice and Howden), Julian Lewis (New Forest East), Jason McCartney (Colne Valley), Andrew Percy (Brigg & Goole) and Mark Reckless (Rochester and Strood).

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Shouldn't this happen more often, I think towing the party line is part of the reason many get frustrated at politics.  Only a few years ago Labour put the current policy of 3000k+ into place from the old system and they even initiated the review that recommended this, suddenly they're all against it. Amazing what difference being in opposition makes isn't it?

[VikingJames]

RedJ wrote:

VikingJames wrote:

The bloke who abstained from the vote should resign as well. It's a complete cop out when your duty as an MP is to vote for what you believe in, regardless of whether it upsets your party or not.

If you mean Huhne, he was in Mexico.

Nope, I meant Simon Hughes. Liberal Democrat MP for Bermondsey and Old Southwark and deputy Lib Dem leader.

[RedJ]

VikingJames wrote:

RedJ wrote:

VikingJames wrote:

The bloke who abstained from the vote should resign as well. It's a complete cop out when your duty as an MP is to vote for what you believe in, regardless of whether it upsets your party or not.

If you mean Huhne, he was in Mexico.

Nope, I meant Simon Hughes. Liberal Democrat MP for Bermondsey and Old Southwark and deputy Lib Dem leader.

That man's as spineless as the man he's deputy to.

[CusworthRovers]

The only thing that concerns me is the Tories are bringing a ghastly rule into education, and yet there is no heat on them whatsoever.....it's all been taken away from them by the Lib-Dems. Camster and Gidders must be pissing their pants on all the Bolli they are now drinking.


They argue that the new payments will favour the poor. They can f**k right off on that score. When say poor they mean the desperately low income. How many low income lot get through their social background and up-bringing to make it to Uni. It's the mass working class lot like the majority on this Island who will shit their pants at having to pay what could be 9k a year over 3-4 years. That's 36 f**kin grand and that's before living costs et al. All it's doing is putting education and a good job/career out of the reach of the ordinary folk and leave it to the Public School brigade who will simply fill the available places and continue to get the best jobs.

This is putting the country back many years. I really despair

[BillyStubbsTears]

CusworthRovers wrote:

The only thing that concerns me is the Tories are bringing a ghastly rule into education, and yet there is no heat on them whatsoever.....it's all been taken away from them by the Lib-Dems. Camster and Gidders must be pissing their pants on all the Bolli they are now drinking.


They argue that the new payments will favour the poor. They can fcuk right off on that score. When say poor they mean the desperately low income. How many low income lot get through their social background and up-bringing to make it to Uni. It's the mass working class lot like the majority on this Island who will shit their pants at having to pay what could be 9k a year over 3-4 years. That's 36 fcukin grand and that's before living costs et al. All it's doing is putting education and a good job/career out of the reach of the ordinary folk and leave it to the Public School brigade who will simply fill the available places and continue to get the best jobs.

This is putting the country back many years. I really despair

Cussie lad, you've said it more eloquently than I've ever managed to do.

We've had 40 years of expanding Higher Education to the working classes. We had a wonderful aspiration of sending kids from our area to University instead of down the pit. The Right fcuking hated this approach. It threatented the entrenched advantages that the middle-middle-and above classes have always had in this country.

Over the last decade, have you ever read ther letters pages in The Telegraph or the Mail? Regularly full of letters saying, \"Why are we sending poor kids to University when what we need is more plumbers and brickies?\" The Comment pages were saying the same thing.

All with the intention of softening us up. All with the intention of making the subliminal argument that poor kids should be fixing OUR houses instead of getting above themselves and trying to displace us.

And now this. With barely a whimper from the lower classes of the country, the prospect of University education has been put out of the reach of all but the very bravest or most foolhardy working class kids. THE single most socially regressive act in 50 years of UK politics has been passed tonight, with the connivance of a bunch of cnuts who got elected on the ticket that they would move heaven and earth to oppose it, then ignored that promise once a couple of ministerial offices were dangled in front of them.


If I were an 18 year old working class lad today, I'd be preparing the Molotov Cocktails.

They have been pushed out of Higher Education. If they DO go to University, they have a crippling debt. If they graduate, there are few graduate level jobs. If they get a job, the pension arrangments are shite. And they can't afford to buy a house.

That's the legacy left to them by a middle-class, middle-aged elite that heave had EVERY thing go their way, and who are now pulling up the rope ladder behind them. It fcuking well stinks.

[Curious Orange]

A little off topic but: The same is stangely true of the civil and family justice systems in that there is a bizarre three tier system which is the preserve of the very rich (as they can afford it) or the very poor (as they are granted legal funding) whereas the middle tier of the working and lower-middle classes simply cannot afford the legal fees. The lower working class used to get legal funding too (albeit they'd have to pay a contribtuion or have it charged against their home if they owned it) but our wise government has decided this should be brought to an end too.

[The Red Baron]

BillyStubbsTears wrote:

CusworthRovers wrote:

Over the last decade, have you ever read ther letters pages in The Telegraph or the Mail? Regularly full of letters saying, \"Why are we sending poor kids to University when what we need is more plumbers and brickies?\" The Comment pages were saying the same thing.

.

That's a very revealing comment. Presumably you think plumbers and brickies are of lower value than, say, accountants or estate agents. Or is it because most of them come from Eastern Europe now and \"we British\" should be above jobs like that?

I sometimes wonder if I'd have been better off if at 16 I'd gone to the Technical College and done my City and Guilds in plumbing, rather than A-Levels and an arts/ humanities degree. I don't regret the course I took, but I reckon if I'd gone down the other road, I'd have earned a darned sight more money!

[Filo]

The Red Baron wrote:

I sometimes wonder if I'd have been better off if at 16 I'd gone to the Technical College and done my City and Guilds in plumbing, rather than A-Levels and an arts/ humanities degree. I don't regret the course I took, but I reckon if I'd gone down the other road, I'd have earned a darned sight more money!

It`s not as simple as that though is it?

I left school at 16 and did an apprenticeship, I have City and Guilds in Shipbuilding, City and Guilds parts 1,2 & 3 in Mechanical Engineering, a Certificate of Craftsmanship from the shipbuilding training board, I am a qualified Marine Engineer, at 21 I was made redundant, I could n`t get a job in my profession because I lacked experience, I spent 3 years on the dole before landing a job at a glass factory, I spent 23 years at that glass factory working in the warehouse, made redundant again and i`m now driving Taxi`s. My 4 year apprenticeship and qualifications count for nothing, and with hindsight I wasted 4 years of my working life on low wages learning a trade, I sometimes wonder if I would have been better off going to the pit. Education is not everything, it`s what life throws at you and the decisions you make along the way that counts!

Does that make any sense?

[Filo]

Is this the look of a man who`s political party is staring down the barrel?




He knows he`s shit on the people that voted for him and he knows that the Lib-Dems will be obliterated at the next election, the price of glory eh?

[BillyStubbsTears]

The Red Baron wrote:

That's a very revealing comment. Presumably you think plumbers and brickies are of lower value than, say, accountants or estate agents. Or is it because most of them come from Eastern Europe now and \"we British\" should be above jobs like that?

That is not what I mean at all.

Of course those jobs are valuable. But it's a well establised fact that, in general (not always- there are always exceptions), education is a way for people from poorer backgrounds to become more socially mobile. And that's before you even start to consider the REALLY important aspect of Higher Education - learning how to think, being exposed to new ideas and new people and becoming a more rounded person (and again, I'm nit saying that thus doesn't happen fir people who don't go to University, just that it is much less likely.)

Of course, it's interesting that the middle classes don't aspire for THEIR kids to become bricks and plumbers. Those are jobs that \"somebody else's kids\" can do, and we're not going to pay higher taxes to send somebody else's kids to University are we? THAT is the core of why the current debate is repellent. A class and a generation that reaped the rewards of state funded university education, a class and a generation that made themselves socially and economically comfortable that way us now saying \"f**k you\" to the kids of parents who weren't that lucky. The middle class families, with their fat pensions and over-inflated house values can find the money themselves to fund their kids' University fees. So it won't be a gamble for their kids. It'll be a big f**king gamble for a bright kid from Denaby to find £60k for a University course though, won't it.

[CusworthRovers]

Although Politics and Government plays a part in shaping society, people need to forget which party they support and forget the political economics here......take a very big step back and have a good look at the social implications this will cause for now and the future.

It's creating discrimination, it's putting up a massive class divide and worse than all, it's going to split the working class masses all over the place. That's exactly what it will do, the working classes who will take the gamble, find the money, think their child is a superstar, will become distant from the ones who don't adopt that attitude.....and like BST has said, it's one hell of a gamble for somebody to fork out what could be £50k and then f**k up. The pressure is immense on the working class student on themselves and their parents. Watch the suicide rate go through the roof

[ReadingViking]

I teach in relatively 'affluent' Newbury and the number of intelligent, talented kids who are now not even considering University is scary.  Yes they will do well in whatever field they choose, but the system will stop them accessing the careers and jobs in which they would excel, due to lack of a degree.  Whilst relatively talentless upper class twits will take over the running of the country because of the school they went to due to Dadddy's wealth.  Its nothing to do with the economy its ideology and protecting their own.

[Filo]

ReadingViking wrote:

 Whilst relatively talentless upper class twits will take over the running of the country

Too late mate, it`s already happened!  

[RedJ]

CusworthRovers wrote:

Although Politics and Government plays a part in shaping society, people need to forget which party they support and forget the political economics here......take a very big step back and have a good look at the social implications this will cause for now and the future.

It's creating discrimination, it's putting up a massive class divide and worse than all, it's going to split the working class masses all over the place. That's exactly what it will do, the working classes who will take the gamble, find the money, think their child is a superstar, will become distant from the ones who don't adopt that attitude.....and like BST has said, it's one hell of a gamble for somebody to fork out what could be £50k and then fcuk up. The pressure is immense on the working class student on themselves and their parents. Watch the suicide rate go through the roof

It's that age old rule of keeping a thick, slave-like working class and an educated (although not in this case, clearly) ruling elite. f**k off back to Eton, Dave.

[ReadingViking]

Filo wrote:

Is this the look of a man who`s political party is staring down the barrel?




He knows he`s shit on the people that voted for him and he knows that the Lib-Dems will be obliterated at the next election, the price of glory eh?

William Gladstone must be spinning in his grave.

[hoolahoop]

big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:

Shouldn't this happen more often, I think towing the party line is part of the reason many get frustrated at politics.  Only a few years ago Labour put the current policy of 3000k+ into place from the old system and they even initiated the review that recommended this, suddenly they're all against it. Amazing what difference being in opposition makes isn't it?

Just thinking the same myself, also noticed that prat Milliband won't have any truck with the suggestion of reversing the decision.
The left-wingers on here are obviously targeting Clegg and the Lib-Dems to derail the Coalition.
ALL parties at ALL times break pre-election pledges or haven't some of you noticed. It depends on the circumstances, how on earth can everybody expect the very minor party in a Coalition to have a huge influence on policy.
Break up the Coalition and a new General Election would give the Conservatives even more power along with the seats against a very weak and obviously struggling Labour Party.
Btw these students who are protesting by destoying/defacing national monuments and buildings do themselves a massive disservice in the public eye. There is never a situation where gratuitous violence and destruction have a place in a modern democratic society. Enough is enough, I have no problem at all with peaceful marches and protests but get greatly concerned when many of those marching have to cover their faces up. This protest has been hijacked by far Left wing activists.  :angry:

[The Red Baron]

CusworthRovers wrote:

It's creating discrimination, it's putting up a massive class divide and worse than all, it's going to split the working class masses all over the place. That's exactly what it will do, the working classes who will take the gamble, find the money, think their child is a superstar, will become distant from the ones who don't adopt that attitude.....and like BST has said, it's one hell of a gamble for somebody to fork out what could be £50k and then fcuk up. The pressure is immense on the working class student on themselves and their parents. Watch the suicide rate go through the roof

Although not defending the fees policy per se, I have to point out that no-one will have to \"fork out\" £50K or whatever in order to go to University. They do not have to find the money up front. That's not to say that people wouldn't be worried by the prospect of having high debts (although that doesn't stop people taking out mortgages on  houses.)

It is such a common misconception (which I saw voiced by at least one student demonstrating peacefully on the local tv news) that students will have to find their fees up front before being admitted to university, that I suspect some black propaganda.

[Mike_F]

Filo wrote:

Is this the look of a man who`s political party is staring down the barrel?




He knows he`s shit on the people that voted for him and he knows that the Lib-Dems will be obliterated at the next election, the price of glory eh?

I have often voted Lib Dem in the past, inlcuding the last election. The stock reply was \"why bother, they promise everything but they can afford to because they know they'll never get in.\" My train of thought was: OK, they don't stand much chance of getting in but they talk sense and should they get a sniff of power they will be able to either take a fair chance to demonstrate the substance bhind their policies in which case we all benefit or they will show their lack of mettle and we will know that they're not worth bothering with again.

The first chance they get to stand up and be counted, they throw away. They've acted not as the kingmakers of the coalition so much as Cammy and Gidders' dorm-room fags thus entirely discrediting the party as a viable force in British politics.

Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely.

[The Red Baron]

hoolahoop wrote:

big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:

Shouldn't this happen more often, I think towing the party line is part of the reason many get frustrated at politics.  Only a few years ago Labour put the current policy of 3000k+ into place from the old system and they even initiated the review that recommended this, suddenly they're all against it. Amazing what difference being in opposition makes isn't it?

Just thinking the same myself, also noticed that prat Milliband won't have any truck with the suggestion of reversing the decision.
The left-wingers on here are obviously targeting Clegg and the Lib-Dems to derail the Coalition.
ALL parties at ALL times break pre-election pledges or haven't some of you noticed. It depends on the circumstances, how on earth can everybody expect the very minor party in a Coalition to have a huge influence on policy.
Break up the Coalition and a new General Election would give the Conservatives even more power along with the seats against a very weak and obviously struggling Labour Party.
Btw these students who are protesting by destoying/defacing national monuments and buildings do themselves a massive disservice in the public eye. There is never a situation where gratuitous violence and destruction have a place in a modern democratic society. Enough is enough, I have no problem at all with peaceful marches and protests but get greatly concerned when many of those marching have to cover their faces up. This protest has been hijacked by far Left wing activists.  :angry:

We're not used to coalitions in the UK, but this is the reality of them. Parties do have to ditch some of their policies. The problem for the Lib Dems, of course, was that opposing tuition fees was one of their big selling points. Take that away and you're left with- well, not much, actually (especially as they've also agreed to a replacement for Trident)!

As for the violence- massive own goal. It is all very well to blame it on a minority of professional agitators and troublemakers, but just as when hooligans riot at a football match, the majority will be tarred with the same brush. The NUS leadership needs to rethink its strategy on demos.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Do some of you not understand the basis behind this policy?

I've seen comments saying this hits the working class, if anything it benefits the working class more than the richer people in society.  It's a fairly simple system to understand.

Some of the comments heard on the radio in the past few days are ridiculous.

\"how can I save up 9k a year for my kid?\"  Answer you do not have to.  The youngster goes to uni and basically pays nothing until they can afford to.

Look at it this way, instead of starting to pay back at 15k it's now 21k.  21k before you even start.  How is that hitting the poorer in society most?  I've asked about 5 times for people to give me real reasons why the actual policy affects people going to uni and had no realo answer.  The fact is it doesn't.  The only aspect of it that will is the basic misconception around that you have to pay it up front and will be crippled by debt etc.  When you think that Sky TV costs the same as the amount someone earning 25k a year would pay back per year on their student debt it makes you realise, it probably isn't that bad.  Just step back from your political beliefs and look at the policy, it's a bloody good thing for those earning less than 20k after graduation that's for sure.

[hoolahoop]

There was plenty more worth considering in their manifesto i.e. the pupil premium and this they have achieved. I will definitely vote for them again and it was refreshing to see some voting for and against this policy.........democracy at work not 'whip' politics. That I thought was commendable , I can remember many times in the past when there have been major dissenters from the Govt. policy of that time and they have simply voted as their 'whips' have instructed them too.
Being part of a Coalition is never an easy place to be and they can only do their best to dilute radical right-wing policies....time will tell.
As for the students , quite simply they have lost most of the public sympathy they had in just a week or so.
Finally I agree that stating that students have to 'stump up' the money up front is more than misleading , it's a downright lie.

[VikingJames]

big fat yorkshire pudding wrote:

Do some of you not understand the basis behind this policy?

I've seen comments saying this hits the working class, if anything it benefits the working class more than the richer people in society.  It's a fairly simple system to understand.

Some of the comments heard on the radio in the past few days are ridiculous.

\"how can I save up 9k a year for my kid?\"  Answer you do not have to.  The youngster goes to uni and basically pays nothing until they can afford to.

Look at it this way, instead of starting to pay back at 15k it's now 21k.  21k before you even start.  How is that hitting the poorer in society most?  I've asked about 5 times for people to give me real reasons why the actual policy affects people going to uni and had no realo answer.  The fact is it doesn't.  The only aspect of it that will is the basic misconception around that you have to pay it up front and will be crippled by debt etc.  When you think that Sky TV costs the same as the amount someone earning 25k a year would pay back per year on their student debt it makes you realise, it probably isn't that bad.  Just step back from your political beliefs and look at the policy, it's a bloody good thing for those earning less than 20k after graduation that's for sure.

You come out with up to 3 times as much debt as you would under the old system. That is what will put people off.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Nice to see a still optimistic Lib Dem voter Hoola. You're a rare breed these days.

Let's look at what 'coalition' has actually meant in practice.

The Coalition has nailed its colours to the following policies in direct contravention of the Lib Dem manifesto.

The biggest reduction in state spending in living memory. (The Lib Dem manifesto said -verbatim- \"To boost the economy and create jobs for those who need them, we will begin our term of office with a one-year economic stimulus and job creation package.\")

Replacing Trident (The Lib Dem manifesto said - verbatim - \"We will strive for global nuclear disarmament, showing leadership by committing not to replace the Trident nuclear weapons system\")

Trebling student fees (The Lib Dem manifesto said - verbatim - \" We will scrap unfair university tuition fees so everyone has the chance to get a degree, regardless of their parents' income.\")

A huge increase in nuclear power (The Lib Dem manifesto said - verbatim - \"We will reject a new generation of nuclear power stations\")

And that's just from a cursory look at their manifesto.

Basically, a Lib Dem vote is a non-vote for people who don't really think too hard about the politics. It is a vote that says, \"You look like nice harmless chaps, so I'll put my faith in you to decide which of these manifesto pledges you don't really believe in and will reject within six months of taking office. When you then come on the telly and argue passionately that your sudden change of mind is the right thing to do (Clegg on the deficit, Cable on tuition fees, Huhne on nuclear power, etc, etc) I won't really care too much because I didn't really think about it that deeply in the first place.

They are a bunch of unprincipled amateurish cnuts who have had rings run round them by the Tories. They have attracted votes from the centre-left and are now the standard bearers for the sort of right-wing policies that even Thatcher wouldn't have dared to countenance.

This week, an opinion poll put them on 8%. I'm fcuking gobsmacked that even THAT many people still give them any credence whatsoever. They have fcuked up for a generation now. They will not get a whiff of power again until we're all in the grave. And even more stupidly, they gave utterly emasculated themselves in this coalition. Their support having collapsed, the very last thing they can do now is to play Billy Big b*llocks and face down the Tories. If the Lib Dems threatened to make a stand and riski bringing down the Govt, they would be wiped out in an election. So the Tories have them by the knackers. They dance to the Tories' tune. Look at the example of Cable. Three months ago, he tried breaking cover by announcing that he believed in a graduate tax. Clegg said fcuk all in support and the Tory big guns shot Cable down instantly. So you then get the result of Cable being forced to go up and down the country claiming that actually he believed in Trebling tuition fees all along.

Utterly and totally inept. They got into Government under false pretences and they will reap the reward by going back to their previous irrelevance at the next Election.

[Nudga]

It's exactly the same in the rail industry at the moment. Guys who have done the job for years are being overlooked for management jobs in favour of graduates who haven't got a clue in how the railway should be run. All they see is facts, figures and pound signs and not what's actually out there. Under this new regime, which is already in by the way, people's lives will be put at risk because they don't want to spend the money on maintaining the railway properly. They tell us that they are and that safety is their passion, yet we were told to go and knock off icicles in tunnels which had 3 inch of ice underfoot and the lines were still open. But if one of us were to slip and crack open our heads, it would have been down to the Controller of Site Safety and he would have had the book thrown at him. Safety when it suits. These w**kers couldn't give a toss about the safety of the lads out there, just as long as there aren't any train delays.

[hoolahoop]

I haven't got the time or the energy to dissect the pre-election manifestos of the previous Governments but you know as well as I do that the same criticisms could be levelled at all of them.
There is little point in going through all of this again as your ideas and bitterness are so deeply entrenched that it would be a one-sided debate i.e. Billy is ALWAYS right!

Incidentally I couldn't help but chuckle at your comment ''They have fcuked up for a generation now''........remind me how we got into this financial situation again please.
I would be interested to on why our schools are failing so dismally in the European league tables and why the NHS is struggling having had the benefit of extra £billions whilst the Party that you so fervently support has been in power.
Pot and Kettle spring to mind here fella, the Labour Party has squandered and frittered money away faster than a Chinaman in a casino!!
I would however be interested in your views re. the recent protests