JR on the warpath!

[Mr1Croft]

How anyone can defend Beye is beyond me, whether his stud were showing, both feet or not he lunges off the ground for the ball, there is no difference to this challenge and the dunk challenge, both were aimed at the ball, and if anyone thinks differently there is the images of the dunk challenges attatched, his leg is tucked in and he dives in before Sharp moves the ball...

That one was a red for Dunk but our wasnt on Saturday? You can't have it both ways...


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[madmick50]

What is it that JR and Saunders don't understand about the rule 'the referee's decision is final'? I think they both know the writing is on the wall for us and are both getting their excuses in early. It won't be either of them to blame when we get relegated it will be the refs fault. Absolutely pathetic.

Imagine if you were a referee and all you ever heard coming out of the Rovers camp was constant criticism. How would you feel? Would you feel resentment towards the club or would you think 'they've got a fair point, I'd better start giving them an advantage in a game by giving some dodgy decisions against the opposition'. Anyone with half a brain would know the answer to that one.

It is unbelievably stupid to criticise refs, the FA etc as all this is going to do is make it more likely that decisions are going to go against us. Imagine if you were a ref and after the match the manager praised you saying something like 'he's got a difficult job and did his best'. How would you then feel as a ref? Isn't it obvious they would more likely be on your side when there was a 50/50 decision? I can't believe I'm having to point out the blindingly obvious to the people running the club.

So JR and Saunders get a grip and stop making yourselves and our great club  more of a laughing stock than we already are.

[Bristol Red Rover]

I can't believe some people on here having a go at JR about his stance on the Copps incident. I saw it and it seems most of the anti's here didn't. NO WAY was it 50/50. Having seen it live and the pic that shows head contact (and the ball how far away?!), and now the vid on the Bristol site which also shows the head butt (the arm was thrown in too as he was lunging), its clearly a red card for dangerous play. He made his mind up to go for the challenge and as he got near he should have pulled out, but bludgened his way in. He didn't go for the ball in the end, and had no chance of getting it. Go JR! I hope that player gets a several weeks wages fine and a ban if not something more serious. How the ref didn't at least give a yellow for incompetance is beyond me.

What good does taking legal action against the Bristol player? It lets players know they won't get away with it. Too right John.

Why on earth Rovers Player isn't showing that incident I don't know. Its on the City Player at 2.10 mins at http://www.bcfc.co.uk/articles/20120122/extended-city-2-1-doncaster-rovers_2258724_2583209/0,,10327~2583209~1,00.html

The issue over unfair treatment of the smaller clubs is more debateable.

You're missing the point. Whether the challenge is fair or not is irrelevant as the referee's decision has been made. This is about JR's ridiculous idea that it should warrant legal action. The general concensus on here is that he is wrong and he must stop coming out with these frankly embarrassing statements.

Most people on here have come to their conclusion without seeing the incident which I find is reactive of them. Lets separate the issues:
[ol]
  [li]The referee was wrong, and clearly he was, and that should be challenged. I'm not sure of all the processes there, but the FA does act in some situations with players receiving punishments despite what the referee did in the game. [/li]
  [li]Also with this, what was it that the referee was thinking at the time? Was it that he didn't see it or did he honestly think it wasn't even a yellow? This is about transparency, and its right that the referee should make his position clear. What happens from there regarding the referee depends on what he says. If it is evident he is judging the action in the game wrongly then he can be set right. That may involve a demotion, some training or whatever.[/li]
  [li]The incident is not as clear cut as someone throwing a punch. Its similar to Balotelli's stamping, which being generous was at best was reckless and hotheaded, but also not purely accidental - though in a court he would ultimately be given the benefit of the marginal doubt. Nonetheless, assualt on a football pitch is assault, and IMO its right that it can be punished through the courts. Some players do have attitude problems that result in violence, just as some people do - do we ignore this?[/li]
[/ol]

[Filo]

How anyone can defend Beye is beyond me, whether his stud were showing, both feet or not he lunges off the ground for the ball, there is no difference to this challenge and the dunk challenge, both were aimed at the ball, and if anyone thinks differently there is the images of the dunk challenges attatched, his leg is tucked in and he dives in before Sharp moves the ball...

That one was a red for Dunk but our wasnt on Saturday? You can't have it both ways...


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Totally different tackles, dunk`s was from behind and went straight through the back of Billy, Beye`s was side on, and beye got his foot to the ball before the Bristol player got to the ball!

[Donnywolf]

How anyone can defend Beye is beyond me, whether his stud were showing, both feet or not he lunges off the ground for the ball, there is no difference to this challenge and the dunk challenge, both were aimed at the ball, and if anyone thinks differently there is the images of the dunk challenges attatched, his leg is tucked in and he dives in before Sharp moves the ball...

That one was a red for Dunk but our wasnt on Saturday? You can't have it both ways...


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Totally different tackles, dunk`s was from behind and went straight through the back of Billy, Beye`s was side on, and beye got his foot to the ball before the Bristol player got to the ball!

Unfortunately the argument is largely academic / theoretical and is a matter of opinion and unfortunately the Refs opinion (from his one view) on Beye was that he should be sent off.

With the benefit of multiple replays all from the BBC Player I / we can conjecture forever but it still LOOKED to the Ref that it was a dangerous challenge of the type they are trying to outlaw

That may or may not be correct but it is what the man in charge decided and what we have to accept whether just or not. Unfortunately the injustice does not as they say seem to \"even itself out\"

[hoolahoop]

You are absolutely right on both calls Filo, this is not about bias at all or being soft . Quite clearly Dunk's tackle was a clear red as was the one on Copps. Personally having looked at the Beye incident a good few times, I can't call it a red in the same way as the linesman (only a few metres away) didn't........the referee obviously has some sort of enhanced eyesight to see summat that only the crowd would call for from that distance.
Basically the referee was a cheating t**t totally led by the crowd not once but twice. Fuming here but all the JR rants in the world won't bring the 3 points back

[Donnywolf]

Basically the referee was a cheating t**t totally led by the crowd not once but twice. Fuming here but all the JR rants in the world won't bring the 3 points back

True ... just as Man City got 3 points after Balotelli was lucky that Ref did not spot what looks like a clear stamp (same as Karl Henry for Wolves which was spotted)

He then was felled for a Pen and then scored from the spot and got City 3 points - and if Spurs dont get a Champions League spot by one point they will be cursing that decision AND unfortunately Teams DO suffer from these injustices all the time.

Similarly when Players get sent off and should not have been and the Ref looks back later and recinds the Red - fine - but often his Club gets punsihed twice and loses a game but they never get the chance to replay the game 11 v 11

[ctay]

echo the points really. As soon as I saw the Beye challenge I thought it was red. He is not in control when he leaves the floor.

Not seen the Copps incident, so wont comment.

I think we need to move on to be honest.

[firestarter]

As the late great Bill Shankly said. \"If he is not interfering with play he shouldn't be on the field\" It was true then and it is now.


Wasnt it Brian CLough that said that?...but still a true statement nevertheless

[benaldo]

Some people one here are lightening quick to bad mouth anything to do with the mangerial/board side of the club it's untrue. Makes you want to

I sometimes think the club would be better off without all these people. Can you imagine being a floating supporter, half thinking about coming down to watch a game with your kids, then you happen to live next door to one of these negative, doom merchants?? You'd nip off to Leeds instead wouldn't you, or Bramhall lane?

Now I'm not the most clever man who ever lived, but if I can see what the board, the club, the manager, Willie are all trying to do and what the consequences of not doing it are, why can't other people?? I mean, it's really not that difficult is it?

[Donnylass]

A similar point to one I made on the other thread. Really, how much would it take for the 4th official to be able to quickly replay an incident, speak to which ever officials on the pitch were involved and advise the decision. It happens in other sports. The game, in most cases would have stopped briefly, so it wouldn't affect play. And then most of this human error would be avoided.
If they're not going to do that then at least award the team a point, as the game can't be replayed.
Something needs to be done.
To say we shoudln't complain (not lawsuits, but complain) when we feel there has been a significantly bad decision, because future refs might black list us is silly. So we let refs ignore fouls etc against us, so as not to upset them and they continue. We complain and they continue. It's loose loose for us, until something proper is done.

Lets get behind the WHOLE team. We can do this.

[Filo]

The Beye incident needs looking at by the FA, either the ref or the lino need to account for their decision making

1) why did the lino signal ball out of play when he was only a yard away from the incident, why did n`t he signal a foul?

2) The ref, over 60 yards away gives a foul (bionic eyesight) and ignores his lino, who was clearly in a better position to assess the incident, now is the lino or assistant referee as they are know known really assistants or are they just offside spotters?


The copps incident, well it was a straight red, the more I watch it, the more i`m convinced, not only is it a headbut, but the player leads with his elbow as well, all after the ball had gone, the FA need to look at that and issue a retrospective ban!

[BillyStubbsTears]

How anyone can defend Beye is beyond me, whether his stud were showing, both feet or not he lunges off the ground for the ball, there is no difference to this challenge and the dunk challenge, both were aimed at the ball, and if anyone thinks differently there is the images of the dunk challenges attatched, his leg is tucked in and he dives in before Sharp moves the ball...

That one was a red for Dunk but our wasnt on Saturday? You can't have it both ways...

Point of fact Mr Croft. In Dunk's case, he was never aiming his foot at the ball and never got within 2 feet of it. Also, Sharp didn't touch the ball after Dunk had gone airborne. You can see it much more clearly on the attached file.

Beye's case is difficult to see as clearly, but it does look like a rather silly Hong Kong Phooey attempt to block the cross rather than a malicious shot at someone's leg.

[benaldo]

Spot on BST.

And 1croft......when will anyone or anything new at the club be any good at all? It's now getting to the point where people are making stuff up in thier own heads to justify bashing the club. I can't see the point to it myself? Perhaps someone can enlighten me?

Beye DIDN'T go in two footed, and he got the ball. Is that a red card, or is tackling no longer allowed, not because of the consequences, but because refs know it's going to end in play acting and they don't have the balls to control it?

But to turn this into some JR/Saunders/DRFC bashing is not only stupid, it's not helping anyone or anything. I thought we'd turned a corner on here a week or so ago, but I guess some people won't be happy until we're relegated and JR leaves. Personally I wish you'd go away and take your nonsense to another club because some people are like someone else's fart in your spacesuit.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Actually, the more I look at that Beye incident on the BBC highlights, the worse a decision it looks by the ref. I can see why he's sent him off, because it looks horrendous on first viewing. Looking at it frame by frame, it actually looks like a perfectly judged, hard but fair block. He's taken off to make the challenge, but he had never once aimed his leg or foot at Skuse, or at where Skuse was heading. He has aimed solely for the ball. By the time he's made the tackle, both feet and legs are on the floor, he's blocked the cross or deflected the ball back onto Skuse (difficult to tell), then Skuse has gone over Beye's leg. That, to me, looks like an excellently judged and executed block.

True, if he's misjudged it, he could have broken Skuse's leg. But he didn;t misjudge it. He got it spot on. If we're disallowing that kind of challenge, then the game has changed beyond recognition.

In addition to that, the referee, thirty yards away, has four or five players running across his field of view of the incident. The linesman is right on the case, 1 yard away. Yet the ref has not even spoken to the linesman before pulling out the red card. He hasn't even asked whether Beye's studs were showing, whether his leg was high, whether he got to the ball first, whether his foot made contact with Skuse or whether Skuse has gone over Beye's leg. All of those of key issues. The ref couldn't possibly judge any of those facts. The linesman had a perfect view of all of them.

Grounds for appeal I'd say.

[Bessie Red]

The Beye incident needs looking at by the FA, either the ref or the lino need to account for their decision making

1) why did the lino signal ball out of play when he was only a yard away from the incident, why did n`t he signal a foul?

2) The ref, over 60 yards away gives a foul (bionic eyesight) and ignores his lino, who was clearly in a better position to assess the incident, now is the lino or assistant referee as they are know known really assistants or are they just offside spotters?


The copps incident, well it was a straight red, the more I watch it, the more i`m convinced, not only is it a headbut, but the player leads with his elbow as well, all after the ball had gone, the FA need to look at that and issue a retrospective ban!

It says in todays Star that the club will not be contesting the Beye red card so the FA will not be looking into it.

[Wild Rover]

Having viewed both incidents i conclude as follows.

1. The head butt on Coppinger was a sending off offence. No way on gods earth was the BC player ever going to reach the ball first, especially as he was coming from the side, and the only outcome was going to be a Physical assault.

2. Baye was not tackling, when he was \"Airborne\" the BC player was at least 2 yards away, it was an attempt to a) block the ball or b) slide it out of play. If anyone was late ( or malicious ), it was in fact The BC player.

I just wonder what the assistant referee was signaling for though. Certainly not a goal kick, and with angle of flag not a corner, its a mystery.

Still, my opinion counts for nothing.

[The Red Baron]

Actually, the more I look at that Beye incident on the BBC highlights, the worse a decision it looks by the ref. I can see why he's sent him off, because it looks horrendous on first viewing. Looking at it frame by frame, it actually looks like a perfectly judged, hard but fair block. He's taken off to make the challenge, but he had never once aimed his leg or foot at Skuse, or at where Skuse was heading. He has aimed solely for the ball. By the time he's made the tackle, both feet and legs are on the floor, he's blocked the cross or deflected the ball back onto Skuse (difficult to tell), then Skuse has gone over Beye's leg. That, to me, looks like an excellently judged and executed block.

True, if he's misjudged it, he could have broken Skuse's leg. But he didn;t misjudge it. He got it spot on. If we're disallowing that kind of challenge, then the game has changed beyond recognition.

In addition to that, the referee, thirty yards away, has four or five players running across his field of view of the incident. The linesman is right on the case, 1 yard away. Yet the ref has not even spoken to the linesman before pulling out the red card. He hasn't even asked whether Beye's studs were showing, whether his leg was high, whether he got to the ball first, whether his foot made contact with Skuse or whether Skuse has gone over Beye's leg. All of those of key issues. The ref couldn't possibly judge any of those facts. The linesman had a perfect view of all of them.

Grounds for appeal I'd say.

I thought the Vincent Kompany tackle was never a red card, but the decision was upheld and seems to have set a benchmark for what is considered a dangerous challenge. Kompany himself said he thought it would lead to a flurry of red cards and Beye may well have been an early victim of the \"purge.\"

I will say that I think ANY player who launches himself into a challenge from that distance and at that speed is putting himself at risk of being sent off. Within a month or two's time there will probably be a consensus among referees and you may well find that similar challenges to Beye's are not deemed to be red card material. However, I have to say that, to use that dreaded cliche \"in the current climate\" Beye's challenge put him at risk of being sent off.

You may recall that at one time aerial challenges were under similar scrutiny, although the danger posed to an opponent's safety by the flying elbow or forearm seems to have largely been forgotten (see also under Lescott and Song at the weekend.) In that particular \"climate\" Bolassie would have been very likely to have been sent off for an aerial challenge that injured an opponent.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB.

I couldn't agree more. Beye made it easy for the ref to send him off and I wouldn't dispute that. I still think that according to both the spirit and the letter of the Law, the ref has made an error in his judgement of the incident, and a bigger error in not consulting his linesman.

I'm not usually one for berating refs, but, like Ryan, I'm finding it hard to stay calm at the way the key decisions are regularly going against us this season.

The Dunk incident, the penalty for that foot around O'Connor's neck last week and the two sending-off decisions this week were all crucial ones that could and should have gone the other way. There's a case that we have lost 8 points as a result of those decisions and I can't think of any remotely similar decisions that have gone in our favour. That will have a big bearing on our final position.

[The Red Baron]

Spot on BST.

And 1croft......when will anyone or anything new at the club be any good at all? It's now getting to the point where people are making stuff up in thier own heads to justify bashing the club. I can't see the point to it myself? Perhaps someone can enlighten me?

Beye DIDN'T go in two footed, and he got the ball. Is that a red card, or is tackling no longer allowed, not because of the consequences, but because refs know it's going to end in play acting and they don't have the balls to control it?

But to turn this into some JR/Saunders/DRFC bashing is not only stupid, it's not helping anyone or anything. I thought we'd turned a corner on here a week or so ago, but I guess some people won't be happy until we're relegated and JR leaves. Personally I wish you'd go away and take your nonsense to another club because some people are like someone else's fart in your spacesuit.

I agree that we shouldn't be looking at this as a stick with which to beat JR, Dean Saunders or even Willie McKay (not sure where he fits in all this) but I have to say we are getting a reputation as a bunch of whingers. By all means have an occasional blast at officials when they've got something badly wrong, but we're in danger of going down the Warnock route of criticising refs almost every week. You have to accept that a lot of clubs and fans don't like what we're doing with regard to bringing in loan players on the cheap, and if we keep on blaming referees for our misfortunes people will think we're not prepared to look at our own shortcomings.

The \"legal advice\" thing came over very badly to me. I think we should pursue such matters within the game before we think about getting lawyers involved, and even then I'm not sure we should be going public.

[inSODwetrust]

Habib Beye a sure candidate for the gold medal in the long jump competition in London!