Nice one Uli!!

[silent majority]

Somebody talking sense!

Of course they'll never achieve anything in Europe with that kind of thinking, it just won't work!!   

[Hag]

That's the way to do it!

[Mr1Croft]

Here, here.

You'd think after the masterclass from not only the players but the fans in the last week; the penney would drop for the Premier League.

[scaley back rover]

i have made comment about german football before after having the pleasure of living there, and i have got thinking about this and i beleive its a cultural thing as well as a football thing . the germans seem to have it right in the entertainment and lesuire business as a whole and dont treat people as walking money boxes . in the uk on the otherhand a family day out is extorinate from the word go from the transport to the parking costs , the tickets and dont rven get me started on food and merchandise . This country as much as i love it is a rip off for on the most part.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Hang on a minute.

£200 per season ticket=£2million? That means that they only have 10,000 season ticket holders. The same as Sheffield Utd. Something sounds iffy in those figures.

Course, given the investigation into his financial dealings, this may be a smokescreen from Uli to imply that he's simply shit at doing simple sums. So it wasn't his fault that his accounts were out by the odd £2million.

[Rovers-on-Thames]

Sadly, My Hoeness is misguided in his criticism (if indeed he did say this quote)

Why do people keep using the phrase England or "English Game" as if it is somehow a character of English people in general - when 'English' football is, in fact, controlled by very few English people. And oppositely that somehow German people 'understand' social values in football, whereas the English people are not able to grasp this. It is a crass form of nationalistic determinism.

Top flight, and increasingly lower league, football clubs in England are owned by international conglomerates, nation-states, international oligarchs, and international finance. English football is sold globally as a product. If you have never traveled to Asia and Africa you will not fully appreciate how massive it is. The vast majority of players in the premier League are not English.

Haven't Bradford offered £100 season tickets for the last few seasons? Why aren't we using them as an example to point out the ills of other nations? "This is what the Spanish don't understand", "this is what the Italians don't understand".

No one makes those arguments because it is a simplification of a complex argument concerning the imposition of capitalism into a substantial part of European culture (namely, football). There is nothing intrinsic to us English which says we are not aware of the problem. That I object.

[BobG]

Now that is one bloody well argued position Thames. Interesting. But you forgot to add that amongst the owners, or ex owners, of English clubs are a number of international crooks too.

Agree with you about the global nature of English footer. I was with Alex, deep in the hidden depths of darkest Tanzania (and really - it was sodding miles and miles and miles from ANYWHERE!) and guess what he bought at some sun parched, fly blown, stinking poky little village market?  Yep. An Arsenal shirt. On display, with plenty of others alongside the ranks of smelly cows heads, the indeterminate puddles of goo and the dense clouds of buzzing and whining furies.

BobG

[silent majority]

RoT,

The points you make are not valid. He's making one very simple point, that football in England is too expensive which it is. The PL for all its self gratification isn't the best in the world, nor does it provide value. The clubs might not be owned by English people but Richard Scudamore and his colleagues are all English, they're the ones pulling the strings on all the factors affecting us. Of course we are aware of the problem, I've told them on numerous occasions, but we just won't do anything about it.

Taken from Soccerex today;

01 May 2013

Germany’s 1.Bundesliga has been crowned as the world’s leading football league, according to the findings of a new study.

Researched and produced by new social networking and peer-gaming service, betsofmates.com, the Greatest Football League Report aims to become an annual overview of the health of the sport’s top competitions, and has been conducted by the site’s founder and former City investment analyst John Hughes. Each league has been measured against a set of five distinct factors in the shape of revenue, quality of players, competitiveness, audience levels, and finally, the success of each country’s teams in continental competition, as well as the performance of the national team.

The report granted the 1.Bundesliga top spot, stating that it is the second biggest league in terms of average revenue per club at Eur92.4 million. The report added that over the last 10 years five different teams have been crowned champions in Germany, making it more competitive than the English Premier League or Spain’s Primera Division. The website also said the 1.Bundesliga is the second most entertaining league in terms of average goals scored, while it is the best attended and the represents the third best value for money. The Primera Division ranked second, boosted by the success, and revenue-generating power of FC Barcelona and Real Madrid, along with the exploits of the national team. However, the report noted that attendances are falling and said it represents the poorest value for money of all observed leagues. The Premier League was ranked third, but the report noted that its focus on player recruitment and revenue has created an unbalanced product that does not offer the spectator great value for money. Italy’s Serie A and France’s Ligue 1 rounded out the top five.

Hughes said: “The Bundesliga has been growing in popularity over the last few years, and is beginning to make a concerted challenge on the European front with two of its top teams reaching the semi-finals of the Champions League. Teams in the Bundesliga are extremely well followed, and the accessibility of ticket prices makes the German elite division great value for money.” He added: “The financial robustness of the Premier League allows for some of the best players from all over the world to call England their home. However, a league saturated with foreign talent and awash with riches is untrusting of its youth development, which stunts the potential growth of England’s national side.”

[BobG]

Lol! I wasn't making a point tbh. I'm too sleepy I was being slightly off topic, slightly facetious and entirely hyperbolic in my rendition of Tanzania. Oh well.

BobG

[DonnyBazR0ver]

Too right Uli. I still think we are on the above average side of acceptable although I can't deny the club have done better by taking onboard much of what's been suggested.

The IRWT survey should command an improvement in the feedback however, we should not let the club off the take their eye off this until we see ticket sales and revenue increasing.

Why not do a specific survey purely on the price of tickets, food and merchandise? It's the views of those occasionals we need, the 5k extra that turned out for the Notts County game and, the views of others who still might feel 'excluded' at the moment.

[silent majority]

Lol! I wasn't making a point tbh. I'm too sleepy I was being slightly off topic, slightly facetious and entirely hyperbolic in my rendition of Tanzania. Oh well.

BobG

You're so sleepy you didn't realise it wasn't meant for you! 

[BobG]

ha ha ha!!

Right. I'm off to bed.

Thanks chaps. I've enjoyed reading tonight.

Cheers

BobG

[Rovers-on-Thames]

The points you make are not valid.

My points don't become invalid simply because you started making a point about a separate thing.

Football in England is too expensive. I agree with that completely. Yet, it's not that simple is it? People still go and watch, for example. So they are willing to pay. As do people subscribing to Sky. And there are anomalies such as Bradford (and others) who offer cheap season tickets (who then subsequently cannot compete in our inflated game. Inflated because of its global scale - which is my point)

But I don't even really want to get into that discussion. My argument was this. There are major stumbling blocks towards changing the structure of English football which Germany does not face on the same scale. Namely the fact that 'English' football is completely inter-meshed on the global scale. Just have a look at some of the flags next to club owners. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_football_club_owners.

These are the people who vote on premier league decisions, who hold substantial control over our game, they sell our game around the world, and the reason Richard Scudamore can give £200 million to the football foundation, for example, is because they are the ones paying for it. Clubs agree and compete for this system of football, and this is what produces the robbery of the ordinary fan.

'English' football fans buy into the game because its sold as an inflated spectacle. But it is too pessimistic to believe they are unable, or won't do anything about it.

[Rovers-on-Thames]

Bob, I was in Tanzania a few months back. Hottest place I've ever been in my life. Nearly every single male of certain age I've seen in my travels in Africa has been wearing an English football Jersey (usually Premiership but not always - you often get the odd Oxford United and think - how has that ended up here?).

[silent majority]

RoT,

You know what I meant, your points were invalid with regard to the statement about the cost difference between English and German football. And Uli is right of course, our clubs don't give a rats ass for the average football fan but they do. And they do it because they still have to comply with the football governance in Germany which still maintains, by and large, although not exclusively, the 51% shareholding by the supporters themselves.

Furthermore football fans in Germany are far better organised than we are in this country. We struggle to form a cohesive opposition to the changes imposed due to our fierce sense of tribalism from club to club. But don't get me started on the finances of the PL, they distribute monies reluctantly, and the hoops they impose are extremely onerous on all recipients, including the most deserving. And yet the new tv deal is worth an extra £1.2 billion over and above what they've had before. Hmm, I wonder what they'll spend that on?

[DaveDRFC]

Yeah it's good that you can get a Season Ticket there for that price, but that's only the cheapest ticket they are quoting, not everyone in the ground is paying that much. Prices range from 120 to 650 euros for a season ticket (only 17 matches compared to 19 in this country too) depending on where you sit or stand. Just looks to me like one of those typical things people put on Facebook or whatever to try and make a quick and easy point that somewhere else is better than England, which too many people in this country seem quick to do.

And all this about the English League being shite, this year will only be the second in the last 9 years that an English club hasn't been in the Champions League final, and they won 3 of those 9, the other 6 being 3 from Spain (all Barca), 2 from Italy, and obviously Germany this year. Not exactly all bad is it?

[bpoolrover]

Bayern can charge that much because they have the monopoly on tv money,if it was shared more equally they would have to increase ticket prices to compete

[silent majority]

Dave,

Please don't try and defend the pricing of the Premier League. Its not a cheap shot by any means, there is a whole culture difference between German football and football in our country. The average price, per game, in the Bundesliga is €15, with that you get free train travel, the opportunity to stand to support your team and to drink beer in the stadium. Our sterile environments are driving people away and the PL are to be held responsible for that.

[DonnyNoel]

Dave,

Please don't try and defend the pricing of the Premier League. Its not a cheap shot by any means, there is a whole culture difference between German football and football in our country. The average price, per game, in the Bundesliga is €15, with that you get free train travel, the opportunity to stand to support your team and to drink beer in the stadium. Our sterile environments are driving people away and the PL are to be held responsible for that.

Agreed, its a whole culture shift that would be needed to implement things like that in this country though and I hope it can succeed. Also worth noting the good relationships the clubs have with many loval businesses who invest heavily in the clubs to enable some of the low pricing.

I can't help but wonder if Sky are going to make a play for the Bundesliga rights now its perceived as the top league in Europe.

[Mr1Croft]

I will post a link later (on my mobile) but a new report this week suggests that the Bundesliga is the greatest league in the world and it is easy to see why.

I could re-iterate and emphasise what SM has said but Im only going to focus on one specific thing: Regulation. In this Country The FA has transferred too many powers to the PL. It is considered the norm now that what is considered best for teams like Chelsea, Manchester United, Arsenal is percieved to be best for teams like Doncaster Rovers and the rest of the football league.

In Germany there is far more than the 50+1 rule, the licensing system to play in the leagues is actually quite tough but effective. Clubs cannot outspend their revenue, not more than the agreed overdraft from the start of the season (which is usually around 500k, pennies compared to the PL). This year 14 of 18 Bundesliga clubs made a profit, overall 3 times the size of the profit of the PL which, recieves far more in TV broadcasting rights, and revenue than the Bundesliga ever could.

Dave, to say the success of English football rests on our success in Europe is a pretty poor argument. To say that last season Bayern were a spot kick away from being Champions, isnt really that convincing to state English Football is better than Germany: Its not. Chelsea reached the final by gambling everything, plunging £100 million more into debt that season. I was at Di Matteo's first game in charge. The cheapest ticket I could get hold of cost me £52. Its just poor governance when a football team charges that much, sells out mostly every game and still doesnt make a profit. Bayern on the other hand reached that final and this seasons by continuing to be competitive while being a responsible football club making a healthy profit. This season has witnessed FC Bayern and BVB literally embarrass teams and I can't see how English clubs can even match that next season.

Let us not forget either the impact this has had on the national team. Because clubs havent been able to offer nowhere near the levels of wages of some of the 'best' footballers around, it has allowed the national youngsters to flourish which has resulted in a far superior national team. Something we desperatley lack.

[Mr1Croft]

Dave,

Please don't try and defend the pricing of the Premier League. Its not a cheap shot by any means, there is a whole culture difference between German football and football in our country. The average price, per game, in the Bundesliga is €15, with that you get free train travel, the opportunity to stand to support your team and to drink beer in the stadium. Our sterile environments are driving people away and the PL are to be held responsible for that.

Agreed, its a whole culture shift that would be needed to implement things like that in this country though and I hope it can succeed. Also worth noting the good relationships the clubs have with many loval businesses who invest heavily in the clubs to enable some of the low pricing.

I can't help but wonder if Sky are going to make a play for the Bundesliga rights now its perceived as the top league in Europe.

The German Sky already pays a huge sum (£400 million per year) for the live rights. German clubs do exploit a great deal of money from the commercial side of football but it is apparrent they are better equipped to use these extra funds in a much more sensible way.

[silent majority]

Mr1Croft,

I've already posted the article about the Bundesliga being the best league in the world, see above.

[Mr1Croft]

I read your post last night when it was just one paragraph, must have been before your subtle edit...

[silent majority]

I read your post last night when it was just one paragraph, must have been before your subtle edit...

Not that subtle eh!!

[robchester]

This debate should be happening nationaly.

[DonnyOsmond]

The Premier League and the FA just don't care. It was easy to see the Bundesliga becoming top 5 years ago. All the English game see's is the pound signs.

[silent majority]

This debate should be happening nationaly.

But it is, the only problem is the apathy of football supporters in this country;

http://www.fsf.org.uk/petitions/20plenty/

[silent majority]

Lee/all,

Even David Moyes is feeling the love for German football;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2013/apr/30/david-moyes-bundesliga

[BK29]

Yeah David Moyes is a huge fan of the Bundesliga. I thought he was going to end up at Schalke.

German football is fantastic. I am glad the Champions League is a full german affair, it shows that you can adopt their model and still have success on the world stage.

[normal rules]

players agents, like estate agents are the dark horses behind the spiralling expense of top level football in this country.

they are just like estate agents during the boom years - except the prices are still going up.

we need a monumental culture change and collapse from within clubs to drive player value and wages down.

only when this happens will football become more affordable.

perhaps the demise of the premiership at the hands of the bundesliga wont be a bad thing.