Sorry SoD

[The Red Baron]

As someone who continued to follow Rovers through the miserable days of the early 70s and the even worse 90s, I find it odd that someone would stop attending matches because of the club now lacks "direction and genuine ambition." In those days the height of "ambition" was avoiding relegation from the Football League!

Obviously Savvy is entitled to his views, and like him I was angered and disappointed by SO'D's dismissal- both in the timing of it and more importantly in the way in which it was handled. But it never occurred to me to stop attending matches, or to withdraw my support in any other way from the club. 

[Alickismyhero]

Savvy,
I understand how you feel but I think even Sean would find it a little extreme, you have to move on Rovers is bigger than any individual and that includes Sean, JR and the rest.

 Comparing Sean to Shank's is a good one I know for a fact that Sean considered his sacking as a waste of 5 years in his planning. Sean is very philosophical about being sacked in football it goes with the job but he was very upset at the manner in which it was done at Donny.

I can see why people take against Sean because he appears very stubborn but this is really that he knows what he wants. But his main failing is that he is a very poor communicator and he is easily crucified in an interview. It took me a few months to understand his ways.

When it comes to Bramall and Watson, I was being very critical and Sean put me in my place by saying that he had a good working relationship with them. Take from that what you will.

Obviously I was as devastated as you at what happened to Sean but I would disagree that Rovers now lack ambition. In young Dicky's enthusiasm how can you say they lack ambition? Dicky and the team have won me over. I have been to 2 and a bit games this season and I think we are good enough to make mid table. Lets forget the Borough game.

I fully understand you questioning expenditure at this point in time. I can't get to home games for different reasons but if its too expensive for you give me a PM and I will arrange to get you in free for a few free games as we have a spare season ticket.

[Savvy]

Hi Bill,

As you say, obviously its my choice not to attend matches and just to re-affirm that the decision is not some "toys out of pram" syndrome, it more to do with the long term direction and ambition of the club. Following JR's decision to dilute his own shareholding in the club rather than have a new share issue and sell to Bramall and Watson the whole dynamic of the club has changed. Again, if I'm honest I don't see Bramall and Watson's coming into the club as entirely football motivated, but that's just my personal view.

As for your comment on O'Driscoll becoming bigger than Doncaster Rovers, that is the first time I've ever heard that being raised as an issue!!! Again, on a personal note, He could have got as big as he wanted as long as he continued to develop and produce a football team capable of playing the type of football that by and large they did!!!!

I agree he wasn't perfect and some of his decisions could appear quite baffling (remember I used to post vehemently about his omission of Green at the time!!!!) but at the end of the day, as always the management reserve the right to manage.

The rest of your post is smothered in conjecture, so I'm not going to comment on "some people's view's, there is a strong argument and by all accounts". The fact of the matter was that the club was relegated from the Championship due to a lack of investment. The club were given the "gypsies warning" the season prior when we narrowly avoided relegation and so when the lack of investment followed into the following season relegation became a self fulfilling prophecy!

The appointment of Saunders and circus that followed O'Driscolls departure did nothing at all to endear me to the club and did nothing to enhance John Ryan's credibility in my opinion, and since Dickov has been appointed I have seen no clear indications of a change of policy from the boardroom in terms of investment in the squad or anything on the pitch that has enticed me back into the fold as a paying customer!!!!

[ArmthorpeRover]

He could have got as big as he wanted as long as he continued to develop and produce a football team capable of playing the type of football that by and large they did!!!!

Just a shame the team couldn't win games isn't it but as long as the football is pleasing on the eye it's all good.......right?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Savvy

I didn't say O'Driscoll became bigger than the club. I said that he did in some people's opinion.

As for the season we were relegated, O'Driscoll himself said that we had a "competitive" wage bill. Yet we ended up with a squad with more homes in it than a collander. That's the point I was trying to make. It's not my opinion. It is established fact that a) we had a very high wage bill and b) we had a hell if a lot of players that were u able to get into any othe Tier 2 side. The only place where my opinion comes in is that a manager utilising those resources, over several years, ends up with a squad where Sam Hird, Adam Lockwood, Gary Woods and Richard Naylor are key players in vital positions, and then goes on a winless streak of 19 matches cannot complain if he loses his job.

[The Red Baron]

I think we ended up paying quite a few players more than they were worth simply because they'd been with us for several seasons. I'm not sure who's fault that was (manager, CEO, directors or a combination of all) but it is something we need to avoid this time around if we stay up in the Championship for a few seasons.

[Chris Black come back]

He gave shirts to Tomi Ameobi, Harry Worley and Dennis Souza.

[Savvy]

He could have got as big as he wanted as long as he continued to develop and produce a football team capable of playing the type of football that by and large they did!!!!

Just a shame the team couldn't win games isn't it but as long as the football is pleasing on the eye it's all good.......right?

Well the success he had in getting us tp Wembley, Cardiff and promoted would indicate that his team's won more games than they lost! Clearly its a results orientated business but here's a poser for you!!!!

When you hear of managers getting judged on their win rate, if a manager get's slated for having a 33% win rate, why would this be worth remarking on, in a game that has 3 possible outcomes win, lose and draw.  Surely over a long run, a season say, that kind of rate is only to be expected!!!!!

[Savvy]

Savvy

I didn't say O'Driscoll became bigger than the club. I said that he did in some people's opinion.

As for the season we were relegated, O'Driscoll himself said that we had a "competitive" wage bill. Yet we ended up with a squad with more homes in it than a collander. That's the point I was trying to make. It's not my opinion. It is established fact that a) we had a very high wage bill and b) we had a hell if a lot of players that were u able to get into any othe Tier 2 side. The only place where my opinion comes in is that a manager utilising those resources, over several years, ends up with a squad where Sam Hird, Adam Lockwood, Gary Woods and Richard Naylor are key players in vital positions, and then goes on a winless streak of 19 matches cannot complain if he loses his job.

Bill,

Either a way its a throw away comment, its like me saying that some might say that O'Driscoll should have been given the England job!!!!!

[Wellred]

I was one of those who wanted the takeover to go through but to say the club has no ambition is a bit off the mark.
I would agree that I think there could be more ambition but to be fair if you look at some of the loan players we have had already this season it really doesn't show a total lack of ambition.
Wabara on loan from Man City
Khumalo on loan from Spurs
Yoon on loan from QPR
Macheda on loan from Man Utd.

These are not loan signings from lower league clubs and I am sure wont be being paid peanuts.

I am amazed that so called fans stop going to games because of personalities (Richardson excepted). Do you support the club or a Manager?
It is no secret I wasn't one of SOD's fans towards the end but I certainly didn't stop going to cheer on MY TEAM.

[wilts rover]

One other point that no one else has yet brought up is Sean's choice of staff. How many injuries did we have during his time here? And how many of them were muscle pulls, training injuries? That's not to mention the farce of M Woods, Brooker, Martis. How many games did we loose in the last 10 minutes? That just told me the players were not fit enough - and were not training to the required standard.

The fitness and physio regime was a huge change that Saunders brought to the squad. Look at Chris Brown. when he arrived we were told he couldn't play two consecutive games. Now he looks the fittest bloke in the squad. It would be interesting to hear his take on what has gone on at Rovers since his return, maybe there will be a book one day.

[Savvy]

I was one of those who wanted the takeover to go through but to say the club has no ambition is a bit off the mark.
I would agree that I think there could be more ambition but to be fair if you look at some of the loan players we have had already this season it really doesn't show a total lack of ambition.
Wabara on loan from Man City
Khumalo on loan from Spurs
Yoon on loan from QPR
Macheda on loan from Man Utd.

These are not loan signings from lower league clubs and I am sure wont be being paid peanuts.

I am amazed that so called fans stop going to games because of personalities (Richardson excepted). Do you support the club or a Manager?
It is no secret I wasn't one of SOD's fans towards the end but I certainly didn't stop going to cheer on MY TEAM.

Does that make me any less of a fan than the one's who were waxing lyrical about O'Driscoll when he got us to Wembley and Cardiff and got up promoted, but the first time that he had to sell the crown jewels and make do and mend with a mixture of free transfers/loans turned their back on him when it went tits up? 

He told the board the likely outcome if investment wasn't going to be made in the January transfer window and it was turned on him and spun in the media as he was a defeated man!!!!

As for the current crop of loanees, as you say they probably don't come cheaply but like other companies hire or buy decisions are made according to strategy so no surprise to me that very little investment in playing staff has been made as the current board appear to have nailed their colours to the mast by encouraging investment/takeovers. Clearly nothing has changed in this respect since O'Driscoll left.

[Wellred]

I was one of those who wanted the takeover to go through but to say the club has no ambition is a bit off the mark.
I would agree that I think there could be more ambition but to be fair if you look at some of the loan players we have had already this season it really doesn't show a total lack of ambition.
Wabara on loan from Man City
Khumalo on loan from Spurs
Yoon on loan from QPR
Macheda on loan from Man Utd.

These are not loan signings from lower league clubs and I am sure wont be being paid peanuts.

I am amazed that so called fans stop going to games because of personalities (Richardson excepted). Do you support the club or a Manager?
It is no secret I wasn't one of SOD's fans towards the end but I certainly didn't stop going to cheer on MY TEAM.

Does that make me any less of a fan than the one's who were waxing lyrical about O'Driscoll when he got us to Wembley and Cardiff and got up promoted, but the first time that he had to sell the crown jewels and make do and mend with a mixture of free transfers/loans turned their back on him when it went tits up? 

He told the board the likely outcome if investment wasn't going to be made in the January transfer window and it was turned on him and spun in the media as he was a defeated man!!!!

As for the current crop of loanees, as you say they probably don't come cheaply but like other companies hire or buy decisions are made according to strategy so no surprise to me that very little investment in playing staff has been made as the current board appear to have nailed their colours to the mast by encouraging investment/takeovers. Clearly nothing has changed in this respect since O'Driscoll left.

If you turned your back on the club when things started going wrong it doesn't make you less of a fan than others who did the same. You are all the same fans. Not supporters!! There is a difference.

You say there has been very little investment in playing staff and yet agree that the loanees probably don't come cheap. Do you not think the players we have signed on permanent contracts are a good investment?
Turnbull playing in the Champions league last season?
De Val signed from Real Madrid

Yes we are probably short on numbers but I am sure these guys as well as the players who got us promoted last year will be on hefty salaries.

[Savvy]

Wellred, think we might have a mis-understanding here! Whilst I agree that the loanees won't come cheap, that doesn't mean to say that I consider that to be significant investment, not in the slightest! Its what companies do when they don't want any long term commitment!!!!! In my industry we have the need to use small plant from time to time, we have questioned the logic behind not buying them rather than hire, but the company don't want the long term liability! And so it is at the Rovers it would appear!

As far as turning my back on the club when things went wrong....I missed 9 games in total throughout the whole non-league experience, so I think I did my bit don't you?

[BobG]

There is obviously a little known fact missing from a number of the analyses here. During the summer before our Championship relegation season SOD had wanted to sell a number of the higher wage players to release some cash for investment in younger, in some cases fitter, players. That was his plan. The snag with it was that a certain individual on the Board remembered Paul Green (another Board decision btw) and couldn't stand the thought of losing any more of his star players. So that individual took it upon himself to re-negotiate several contracts - upwards. The end result of that was twofold:

1) Those players were priced out of the market as far as selling them was concerned
2) SOD 's budget was spent for him.

That's why we ended up with donkeys, half wits and cripples making up the numbers. Interference from above. And that was a direct contributor to what happened next. Think 'misplaced loyalty'. Think 'unable to leave the job to the professional'.

One of the most admirable things I've seen for many a year continues to be the silence a couple of people continue to maintain on this subject - despite it costing them their jobs and half their reputation.

Waters sometimes run very deep. Don't ever forget that.

BobG

[Chris Black come back]

One other point that no one else has yet brought up is Sean's choice of staff. How many injuries did we have during his time here? And how many of them were muscle pulls, training injuries? That's not to mention the farce of M Woods, Brooker, Martis. How many games did we loose in the last 10 minutes? That just told me the players were not fit enough - and were not training to the required standard.

The fitness and physio regime was a huge change that Saunders brought to the squad. Look at Chris Brown. when he arrived we were told he couldn't play two consecutive games. Now he looks the fittest bloke in the squad. It would be interesting to hear his take on what has gone on at Rovers since his return, maybe there will be a book one day.

Neither Martis, Woods or Brooker have played since leaving Rovers.

[Sammy Chung was King]

Sean did a fine job with the funds he had available,i think a lot of those players he brought in were desperation signings just so he would have a squad of sorts,and if true a board member re signed players back up,that explains the poor signings made at times,i thought for the success and service he gave us,he deserved some sort of respect compared to how he seemed to be dealt with,for me there's no doubt the timing was right for him to go,i enjoyed most of his time managing us,the football at times was breathtaking,all i'd ask him for now is send JET over to your old team,and while your at it,Sam Baldock i'm sure Dickov could get him scoring regular for us

[BillyStubbsTears]

Bob

You've hinted at that before. I'm not doubting you, but I'd be fascinated to see where you go the evidence from, because it's not in the public domain as far as I'm aware. And if a manager IS having decisions made for him at Board level on squad issues, he always has the option of walking (and probably claiming constructive dismissal).

As for Green, of course the Board would finally sanction any contract discussion. But are you telling me that O'Driscoll's opinion carried now weight in those considerations? O'Driscoll had made it clear that he didn't rate Green. He said himself at the end of the season that he had been surprised by how well Green had played in the second half of 07/08. I never understood that, cos I know f**k all about football, but I wasn't surprised by it. But if O'Driscoll didn't rate Green at Xmas 07, why on earth should the Board have moved heaven and earth to re-sign a bench warmer? By the time Green had done what we all knew he would do, and proved O'Driscoll categorically wrong, he was on the radar of every Championship club with more dosh than us, so the Board were stymied. I don't see how you can spin that any way other than it being a badly wrong call by O'Driscoll, that lost us a £1M+ player

[Colin C No.3]

SOD an enigma? Oh he was/is certainly that. 190+ posts on this thread would give some credence to that 'description', together with him as an individual & the decisions 'he made' during his tenureship here good, bad or indifferent.

Did 'dear old' Dave Penney ever receive such thought provoking, widely opposing polarisation of opinion's? No. And does it then follow that in SOD, we as supporters feel almost a sense of 'unfinished business' where he's concerned? Whereas DP was 'dispensed with' because the board (& perhaps some supporters) thought he had taken us as far as 'his talents' would allow?

Both these managers of my club made me proud to follow the Rovers. Great achievements happened under both their managerial stays. In fact, IMO there's but a fag paper between what they both achieved for 'us', given what monies/players etc they had at their disposal.

If DP had gone on to have success at Darlington (where he was certainly making progress but other 'off field' factors made his time there difficult), we may well have been left thinking "Should have been given more time with us"?

If SOD had been given more time at Forest (where he was given the boot after beating Leeds 4-1 therefore taking Forest into the top six) & actually gone on to take them as far as the play-offs or better, what then our take on his dismissal?

Ifs & buts......they make the 'Football World' turn.

In reality, SOD's current team languish next to bottom of League 1.
DP's managerial career never again reached the dizzy heights he achieved at Rovers.

Meantime here we are.....playing football amongst the 'big boy's' of The Championship under the tenureship of Paul Dickov. Who'd have thought we'd ever be back so soon? How many of us 6 months ago would have said "Paul Dickov....PAUL DICKOV?!"

So here's a thought. They say a 'footballers life' is short, a football manager's (at one club an average of 18mths) even shorter, but a football club's supporter well.......it's a lifetime.

So thanks & good luck Sean & Dave..sincerely. But it's time for us to leave you now. As Robert Frost put it so poetically, "The woods are lovely, dark & deep, but I have promises to keep & miles to go before I sleep & miles to go before I sleep".

Cue Paul Dickov.



 

[Wellred]

SOD an enigma? Oh he was/is certainly that. 190+ posts on this thread would give some credence to that 'description', together with him as an individual & the decisions 'he made' during his tenureship here good, bad or indifferent.

Did 'dear old' Dave Penney ever receive such thought provoking, widely opposing polarisation of opinion's? No. And does it then follow that in SOD, we as supporters feel almost a sense of 'unfinished business' where he's concerned? Whereas DP was 'dispensed with' because the board (& perhaps some supporters) thought he had taken us as far as 'his talents' would allow?

Both these managers of my club made me proud to follow the Rovers. Great achievements happened under both their managerial stays. In fact, IMO there's but a fag paper between what they both achieved for 'us', given what monies/players etc they had at their disposal.

If DP had gone on to have success at Darlington (where he was certainly making progress but other 'off field' factors made his time there difficult), we may well have been left thinking "Should have been given more time with us"?

If SOD had been given more time at Forest (where he was given the boot after beating Leeds 4-1 therefore taking Forest into the top six) & actually gone on to take them as far as the play-offs or better, what then our take on his dismissal?

Ifs & buts......they make the 'Football World' turn.

In reality, SOD's current team languish next to bottom of League 1.
DP's managerial career never again reached the dizzy heights he achieved at Rovers.

Meantime here we are.....playing football amongst the 'big boy's' of The Championship under the tenureship of Paul Dickov. Who'd have thought we'd ever be back so soon? How many of us 6 months ago would have said "Paul Dickov....PAUL DICKOV?!"

So here's a thought. They say a 'footballers life' is short, a football manager's (at one club an average of 18mths) even shorter, but a football club's supporter well.......it's a lifetime.

So thanks & good luck Sean & Dave..sincerely. But it's time for us to leave you now. As Robert Frost put it so poetically, "The woods are lovely, dark & deep, but I have promises to keep & miles to go before I sleep & miles to go before I sleep".

Cue Paul Dickov.



 

Amen

[Savvy]

Bob

You've hinted at that before. I'm not doubting you, but I'd be fascinated to see where you go the evidence from, because it's not in the public domain as far as I'm aware. And if a manager IS having decisions made for him at Board level on squad issues, he always has the option of walking (and probably claiming constructive dismissal).

As for Green, of course the Board would finally sanction any contract discussion. But are you telling me that O'Driscoll's opinion carried now weight in those considerations? O'Driscoll had made it clear that he didn't rate Green. He said himself at the end of the season that he had been surprised by how well Green had played in the second half of 07/08. I never understood that, cos I know f*** all about football, but I wasn't surprised by it. But if O'Driscoll didn't rate Green at Xmas 07, why on earth should the Board have moved heaven and earth to re-sign a bench warmer? By the time Green had done what we all knew he would do, and proved O'Driscoll categorically wrong, he was on the radar of every Championship club with more dosh than us, so the Board were stymied. I don't see how you can spin that any way other than it being a badly wrong call by O'Driscoll, that lost us a £1M+ player

Insofar as Green is concerned I have to agree with you Bill!

Paul Green PERSONALLY spoke on Radio Sheffield and told Paul Walker/Seth Bennett that he wasn't offered a contract in January of that year so his agent circulated his availability to other clubs. He also stated quite categorically that had he have been offered a new contract he would have signed it, as he wasn't looking to move away!!!

As much as I believe that we missed a trick with Sean O'Driscoll, for me this was a monumental faux pas on his behalf!!!

[Savvy]

SOD an enigma? Oh he was/is certainly that. 190+ posts on this thread would give some credence to that 'description', together with him as an individual & the decisions 'he made' during his tenureship here good, bad or indifferent.

Did 'dear old' Dave Penney ever receive such thought provoking, widely opposing polarisation of opinion's? No. And does it then follow that in SOD, we as supporters feel almost a sense of 'unfinished business' where he's concerned? Whereas DP was 'dispensed with' because the board (& perhaps some supporters) thought he had taken us as far as 'his talents' would allow?

Both these managers of my club made me proud to follow the Rovers. Great achievements happened under both their managerial stays. In fact, IMO there's but a fag paper between what they both achieved for 'us', given what monies/players etc they had at their disposal.

If DP had gone on to have success at Darlington (where he was certainly making progress but other 'off field' factors made his time there difficult), we may well have been left thinking "Should have been given more time with us"?

If SOD had been given more time at Forest (where he was given the boot after beating Leeds 4-1 therefore taking Forest into the top six) & actually gone on to take them as far as the play-offs or better, what then our take on his dismissal?

Ifs & buts......they make the 'Football World' turn.

In reality, SOD's current team languish next to bottom of League 1.
DP's managerial career never again reached the dizzy heights he achieved at Rovers.

Meantime here we are.....playing football amongst the 'big boy's' of The Championship under the tenureship of Paul Dickov. Who'd have thought we'd ever be back so soon? How many of us 6 months ago would have said "Paul Dickov....PAUL DICKOV?!"

So here's a thought. They say a 'footballers life' is short, a football manager's (at one club an average of 18mths) even shorter, but a football club's supporter well.......it's a lifetime.

So thanks & good luck Sean & Dave..sincerely. But it's time for us to leave you now. As Robert Frost put it so poetically, "The woods are lovely, dark & deep, but I have promises to keep & miles to go before I sleep & miles to go before I sleep".

Cue Paul Dickov.

Great post fella!!! Enjoyed reading that!!!!