I'm sorry PD, but.................

[Bentley Bullet]

Referee's are to blame for player's diving. If a player is fouled he has to make a meal of it in order to get the ref to react, especially in the penalty area. Look at how many dangerous high-kicks occur in matches. Nothing is ever given unless contact is made and the victim clutches his face. It's still dangerous play whether there is contact or not.

It's a bit like saying it is fine to fire a gun at someone, but it's only treated as an offence when the victim shows that he's been hit!

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB

That's the biggest load of rubbish I've heard on the subject for a long time.

Referees make mistakes. The overwhelming majority of referees are honest and fair. But they still make mistakes.

If players accept that, over time there will be as many mistakes in your favour as against you. So the effect of the mistakes, in the long run, will be neutral.

What diving, and over-reaction does is to try to influence the referee in your favour, so that you tip the balance. It is cheating. Pure and simple cheating, however you dress it up.

Referees are NOT to blame for diving. Players who do it and managers who encourage or ignore it are to blame. No-one else. They are cheats and should be called such.

Diving is a cancer in the game and finding ways to justify it makes it harder for the cancer to be eradicated. No excuses. No justifications.

[Bentley Bullet]

BST, how many instances can you think of where a penalty was given to a player who was fouled, but remained on his feet?

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB. And as I say, the cases will balance out.


Take your logic to its conclusion. You are saying that players have a right to influence the referee's decision. What you end up with is players doing what Coppinger did last night. Which is trying to influence the referee's decision when he HADN'T been fouled.

Where I come from, we call that "cheating". You want to accept widespread cheating, that's fine. But ont dress it up as anyone's responsibility but the cheats.

[Bentley Bullet]

I am not saying that players have a right to influence the referee's decision. I am saying what I think is the reason why they do it. That's why I asked you the question in my last post, which you haven't answered.

[bobjimwilly]

Tend to agree with BB on this one. So many times you see honest players not making a meal of things, not going down in the box etc and they don't get anything.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BB. I am not interested in whether referees occasionally don't give a penalty because a player stays on his feet. It's one of those things. As I say, the instances will cancel out over time. So it doesn't matter.

When instances do occur, it's frustrating and it would be better if they didn't. But that is a far lesser problem than accepting the alternative, which is widespread cheating.

No excuses for diving. No justification for diving. If we just condemn it unreservedly, there'll be more chance of it being stamped out. If we justify it, as you are doing, players will continue to cheat.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BJM

That is warped logic. Are you suggesting that we encourage EVERYONE to cheat?

[CusworthRovers]

Billy

Copps didn't dive.

Copps lost balance when he twisted his body round the defender to get round him (after he knocked the ball past him).

Copps as good as had his back to the defender when he did this contortion and the next thing is he's on the deck. It was his own balance and the laws of gravity that made him go over. I'm not as confident as you in calling him a diver or a cheat as I'm not sure he was trying to cheat at all. I just think he lost himself for a split second in that contortion and ended up on the deck and probably didn't know how. Hence his veiled appeal

[River Don]

Yes Cussy I thought it was as much a fall as anything else.

His appeal to the ref suggested he felt it was more or whether he felt it just looked like more we can't know. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Cussy/RD

A player knows when they have been fouled. Coppinger went down holding his hands out for a decision. He must have known that he hadn't been significantly touched by the defender.

Just like Wellens knew he had clipped the Yeovil player when he gave the ref an earful protesting his innocence.

It's all trying to unduly influence the ref. AKA "cheating".

[CusworthRovers]

Watch it again, Copps lost his bearing his balance and everything and ended up on the deck, and probably unsure how. If you think all that movement was deliberate (cheating and diving), then so be it.

It's going to be down to opinions, but I'm happy and confident with mine

[BillyStubbsTears]

Cussy

The rule of thumb in these situations is to think what your opinion would be if it had been the Orr way round and the ref had given a penal to the opponents.

This board would be in uproar.

[River Don]

BST

You might well be right but when everyone else does it and get away with it, you can understand the frustration and why they will/ have to try it too.

For me it's down to the officials to really get a grip, it always has been. This stuff has been going on for decades and if they really started to show some authority I think it would begin to subside.

Edit: without having a go at PD, we need managers like Clough not to tolerate it either.

[BillyStubbsTears]

RD

I agree 100%.

Call me an old fashioned romantic, but I would genuinely prefer for us to be relegated playing fairly than promoted as cheats. When you accept cheating, football has ceased to be a game worth following.

[River Don]

BST

How David Peace portrayed the mind of Brian Clough, bitter to the depths of his heart about Don Revies tactics is the ideal.

You can take all your caps, and all your pots and all your pans and chuck them in the biggest f**king dustbin you can find because you haven't won any of them fairly.

[RedJ]

Thought when their lad had a nibble at Duffy as he tried to leap for the ball coming back at him on the by-line was a penalty.

[BillyStubbsTears]

RD

Exactly. I'm an unashamed idealist when it comes to football. I don't look for success at all costs. I'd like my players to be the better player, not the better cheats. That's one of the reasons why I despised Lewis Guy. Lots of talent, a heart the size of a pea, and always looking to take the cheat's way out rather than take on responsibility. I despise that kind of player.

I'm not for one moment saying that Coppinger is like that. He's always appeared to me t be one of the most honest players around, which is one of the reasons I consider him to be a Rovers legend. But I suspect he'll not be proud of the meal he made of that situation last night.

[River Don]

I like James too. I'm glad he's the longest serving Rovers player we have, honest and genuinely skillful. He's our link right back to the Dave Penney days. For me he embodies what the club is about now. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that one, it isn't like him to try and cheat.

[RobTheRover]

Does anyone think Coppull made a bit of a meal of it seeing as the ref didn't seem interested in the 3 solid handball shouts before that?

[ponte_ricky]

I dont know that it was a dive as much as he just lost his balance n fell ove but it was the fact he was looki g for an unjust penalty. Just abit embarrassing but its a one off

[Capmeister]

Why all the pious bleating about Copps dive Stubbs? Are you bored. It's part of the game unfortunately and your saintly indignation aint gonna change it. Why don't you start a similar pointless crusade on the topic for which no-one will equally give a toss. Gamesmanship comes in a variety of guises from Grobbalaar's wobbly knees trick to Klinsmann's arcing swan dive.

[aidanstu]

I don't understand why your picking out cotts for special mention, an why you have to moan at anyone for that matter. I would agree cotts didn't have his best game and he isn't one of my favourite players either, neithers is CoppsI for that matter. There were many a player who played below par, wellens for one, Wabara, Robinson another's and Furman almost managed to cost all the points with his stupid challenge so why pick out cotts?

Out of interest what has CoppsI done on a consistent Basis over the past three years which makes you think he is a better player than cotts?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Cheers Cap.

We clearly have a different opinion on what's important in football. You approve of players cheating? Grand. Your choice. I could call you an inadequate t**t who puts winning over everything, but I'll not stoop to daft name calling.

[River Don]

There is nobody better with a ball at his feet running through opponents. No one at the Rovers.

Do you disagree Aid?

[GazLaz]

Coppinger's end product has always been poor but he retains possession pretty well and does more work for the team than Cotterill. Cotterill is a cowardly player in every sense, bravery wise and in terms of not wanting the ball in tough situations. He's not a championship player.

[aidanstu]

There is nobody better with a ball at his feet running through opponents. No one at the Rovers.

Do you disagree Aid?

No sorry mark Duffy appears better. Cotts is a better crosser and provides more assists. CoppsI is better going backwards though and has a better work ethos.

[River Don]

There is nobody better with a ball at his feet running through opponents. No one at the Rovers.

Do you disagree Aid?

No sorry mark Duffy appears better. Cotts is a better crosser and provides more assists. CoppsI is better going backwards though and has a better work ethos.

No sorry I disagree, we don't have anyone better with the ball at his feet.

[aidanstu]

Ok so he can control a ball, he has no end product and his strike rate in very poor. Wellens is a better retainer of he ball, Duffy is better at going at people, cotts has miles more assists and none o the current squad jumped ship when we got relegated to a set of scabs.

[River Don]

Ok so he can control a ball, he has no end product and his strike rate in very poor. Wellens is a better retainer of he ball, Duffy is better at going at people, cotts has miles more assists and none o the current squad jumped ship when we got relegated to a set of scabs.

I agree with a lot of that. The jibe about Forest is unfair, he moved because he liked the manager and it was a chance to still compete at a higher level, you would have done the same.

As BST says if Copps could produce the delivery after his runs he would be playing at a higher level than Donny Rovers. Just enjoy what he can do.