Reece Wabara

[Sammy Chung was King]

This is the first season the stadium has made a profit,how far does that profit before your spending more than you have coming in?
What have we got coming in at home games revenue wise?,How much of this gate profit actually pays the wages?
The club has stuck it's head in the sand for years on prices,so instead of having at least eleven or twelve thousand,we are managing on six to seven and a half thousand instead,which doesn't make business sense,if the tickets were just that bit cheaper,you would get more dads and mam's coming along,with the kids 'Our New Generation of supporters',i do hope as the club gets stronger that some of it gets passed down to the supporters to make it more affordable,i know when you look at clubs across the board,our clubs prices are no worse,but that doesn't matter,every club is charging too much,they are killing the game.

Paul Dickov has been backed to a degree with players,you can't expect us to be competing with the 'Top Club's' for players,we've done well so far,

Turnbull-Good enough for any side in this division,
Macheda-the same,
Khumalo not entirely convinced but would get in most side's in the bottom half
Wabara is potentially a Premier league/Top of Championship player,just hasn't shown it enough for us,some of it due to playing with pain for most of the games
Robinson-Has the potential again to be a top player in this league,apart from the first few hasn't shown it,i'm hoping he comes back in form because he's a serious asset if he does
De Val can't really judge,but seems to have the technical ability
Forrester-One of the best young talent's in the bottom two divisions,but can't be judged really,but potentially more than capable of doing well in this league.
Wellens-No doubt about this fella,can see a pass and deliver it,most in the bottom half would take him
Yun-Hard to judge,promising but we need him fit
Enda Stevens-A Stop gap signing till others are fit,but that doesn't mean that when they are fit they will get in,he's got his chance in competitive football.

The Stevens signing was kind of what i expected,cover for the loan players already here,you can't expect the board to pay decent money on two players in the same position on loan,we haven't got it,Martin Woods could give us the balance we've been missing on the left if he's fit,it could be a shrewd move,for little or no money.
I'm just like the rest of you,i was kind of disappointed when only the kid from Villa and Woods came in,but we've got to be realistic,even Barnsley have more funds than us,i think the board has pushed the boat out a fair few times to cover,because at the minute we badly need players back from injury,it's time to put some faith in the youth kids,and patch up till we get them back,You have no show ambition,but the club should always come first,the side we have when all fit are good enough for this league.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Steve

Thanks for your answer. I think your figure is pie in the sky, but at least you are prepared to give a figure.

Savvy. You had a chance to suggest a hard number but you gave a wooly non-answer. I think that the current budget gives the manager a chance if keeping us in this division. If you do 't, by how much do you think it is short? If you don't have a figure in mind then your continual criticism is pointless.

And how, exactly, do you think Bramall will get his money back? What is the mechanism? He, apparently, had a chance to cash in this week. He's chosen not to do so. So why are you so certain that his primary interest is to recoup the several million quid he's already put into the club, and how do you think he'll manage that?

[Savvy]

Steve

Thanks for your answer. I think your figure is pie in the sky, but at least you are prepared to give a figure.

Savvy. You had a chance to suggest a hard number but you gave a wooly non-answer. I think that the current budget gives the manager a chance if keeping us in this division. If you do 't, by how much do you think it is short? If you don't have a figure in mind then your continual criticism is pointless.

And how, exactly, do you think Bramall will get his money back? What is the mechanism? He, apparently, had a chance to cash in this week. He's chosen not to do so. So why are you so certain that his primary interest is to recoup the several million quid he's already put into the club, and how do you think he'll manage that?

You've just stated previously that you would put relegation down to the budget, but then state that you think the budget is sufficient to give the manager the chance to stay in the division, and you call my response wooly?  I've never suggested that his primary interest is to get his money back at this stage, why would he if he's got this glorious vision of the club that he hasn't managed to share with the rest of us up to this point? One thing is for certain, when the time comes, any money he has put into this club will be going back into his pocket!!! Unless they are one of the charitable donations that he appears to be famous for!

[Mr1Croft]

Steve

You've spent years complaining about the level of personal subsidy that the directors put into the club. Out if interest, how much extra would you like to see them subsidise us by?

An extra million a year? 2 million?

What if that ends up not being enough to keep us in Tier2? After all, last time we were at this level, we had a wage bill £2.5m higher than the current one and we still went down?

So, if that wasn't enough, where do YOU think they should draw the line? £3million extra per year? £4million?

This is not a dig by the way. But presumably you have some level that you think would be suitable? I'm interested in what it is.

But there was a little good to come from the experiment when we were relegated, many of the players were loan signings or on short term contracts and many contracts were running out that summer. Although Dean made a big fuss about it, I think it was easier than it could have been to halve that wage budget.

If we do spend another 5 million (lets assume 4 million on wages) and that takes our wage bill to higher than it was that season and we do get relegated we'll have a wage bill nigh on £11 million going into league one. Also if we are spending a lot more money then these players are surely going to be asking for lucrative and longer contracts making it even harder to ship them off the wage bill should we be relegated.

I mean that was the initial idea behind parachute payments; to help relegated clubs from the Premiership adapt to life in the Championship if they have too many players on huge contracts which the revenue in the Championship simply means the club can't afford. Unfortunately no such safety net exists when going to league one (well it does, its just not very much and less effective) which is why most financial troubles often occur with clubs relegated from this division to League One.

Just something to ponder about...

[BillyStubbsTears]

Savvy

I thought what I said was clear and obvious.

1) I DO think we have a squad which gives us a chance if staying up. That is self evident from the fact that we are currently gaining points at around the rate you need to survive, and that we are 5 points above the drop zone. Whether we can survive with an injury list list the roll call at tea time on Day One of the Somme is another matter. We'll see.

2) I said that if we DON'T stay up, we'll have gone down having spent about two million quid more than we earned. Personally, I struggle to see how you can EXPECT anyone to put in a bigger subsidy than that. You clearly disagree because you don't think it's a subsidy. You think it is an investment which will be recouped with interest, although you have given no indication of what the me hanism for that will be.

But I'll ask again. What input from the Directirs do YOU think is suitable? I think £2m is more than we ought to expect. Steve thinks they should be putting £7m in. What do YOU think?

[Savvy]

Billy, you've plucked two million as your figure, Steve thinks seven million, and I'm going for an amount that is sufficient to keep us in the division is that difficult to comprehend? As I have just stated on another thread, it's not an option it is a duty!

[wilts rover]

Savvy, yes that is difficult to comprehend - as I put on the other thread a wage bill of £18m is not enough to guarantee staying in this division. That's just a wage bill without money for signings. You cannot buy success, Bristol City, Portsmouth, Bradford, Luton, Coventry, but you can throw lots of money at a football club for nothing.

Steve, the more money the directors/shareholders 'invest' in the club in the form of loans, the more a prospective buyer would need to pay for it. Given we don't own our own ground (just a lease to run it) and therefore have practically no assests, how much would the club be worth? What is the magic figure when a buyer would say, hang on, I'm not paying that for a League 1 club (as you have said we will be relegated)? When should the directors stop paying in as they wont get their money back?

To give you some help, Portsmouth went bust because no-one would buy them to pay of their debts. Lansdowne has written-off £60m he gave in loans to Bristol City (who do own their ground). Doughty's family similar at Forest and Allam has no expectation of getting back his money at Hull, £33m I think it is. So what's our 'price'?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Savvy

Your opinion seems to be that the Directors have a duty to chuck as much of their money at the club as is required to achieve the result that you require.

Am I reading that right?

[Savvy]

No, what I'm saying is that in my opinion the amount required to keep the team in the division is un-quantifiable, and they have a duty to protect the club's financial well being. Just so that's quite clear, I believe that keeping the club in this division is part of that responsibility.

[drfc1951]

Does the other major shareholder,whoever that may be have a duty to protect the clubs championship status?

[One_Matty_Lucas]

Does the other major shareholder,whoever that may be have a duty to protect the clubs championship status?

No, what I'm saying is that in my opinion the amount required to keep the team in the division is un-quantifiable, and they have a duty to protect the club's financial well being. Just so that's quite clear, I believe that keeping the club in this division is part of that responsibility.

I think the financial health of the club comes first, above everything, we cant throw money we dont have.

FACT: At this moment in time, we dont generate enough revenue to be a top championship club.

We have to live within our means, and I think decisions should be made based on our financial health and not just to be in the championship, if this was the case why dont we invest 100 million and go for the champs league.....

[BillyStubbsTears]

Savvy.

Did the Portsmouth, Bristol City and Coventry Directors have a "responsibility" to keep their clubs in this division?

They all chucked money at the problem. They all failed. We're they derelict in their "duty" by not chucking more money, up to some unquantifiable limit, at the problem?

[Wellred]

Why do we always get Portsmouth, Bristol City and Coventry thrown at us?
Why do you never mention the majority of clubs who have invested and gone on to better things?

[BigH]

Such as?

[Wellred]

Southampton
Swansea
West Brom
Cardiff
Hull
Norwich
Blackburn
Blackpool
Brighton
Ipswich
Leicester

Do you want me to go on?

[BigH]

And as has been pointed out by many others what is the average attendance at each of these clubs?

[Bentley Bullet]

Wasn't Rovers climb out of the Conference and rise up a further two divisions down to heavy (relatively speaking) investment, and probably beyond the clubs means?

We got out of the Conference because we were probably the Manchester United of non-league football, and bought our way out.

I don't think the home attendances have been big enough to warrant the investment in the team since then, but the shareholders have dug deep.

It seems now that further progress is a step too far, blaming it on low home attendances.

It's funny though how John Ryan said If we made the Premier league all season ticket holders would get in for free.

[Copps is Magic]

Most, if not all, clubs are 'investing' as you put it (i.e. covering their own loses simply to stay competitive). Hardly any make a profit. This is the first and most important point that you will inevitably take out of context Wellred. There are bound to be some relative losers and winners in terms of league position. Yet most are losing in terms of increased financial vulnerability, increased debt and all the rest of it. The examples you draw on as 'good' practice above are equally examples of bad practice.

[BigH]

The only club that I can recall that has been consistently subsidised - sorry, "invested in" - well beyond it's fan base is Wigan. Dave Whelan is a self-confessed Wigan football nut who has ploughed well over £100m into the club, its players and its facilities. Ok, they won the cup last year but look where they are now.

[selby]

Forget their gates Billy is dead right we do not want to go down the route that the majority of those sides W.B.A. excepted are going or have gone down.
       Southampton and leicester are very lucky to be still around and would probably not be if it happened now and not before the economic downturn and interest from foreign owners.
  Hull and Cardiff are an accident waiting to happen if relegated Blackpool in steady decline Coventry a good chance to go in the next few years.
   Interest rates are only going to go one way from now on and another economic downturn could be on the cards within 18 months and I dont fancy anyone paying 14% interest on loans again like we did in the 80s but it will come.

[Savvy]

Savvy.

Did the Portsmouth, Bristol City and Coventry Directors have a "responsibility" to keep their clubs in this division?

They all chucked money at the problem. They all failed. We're they derelict in their "duty" by not chucking more money, up to some unquantifiable limit, at the problem?

Billy, I have no interest in side tracking from the issue we are discussing, my only interest is what the directors of Doncaster Rovers are doing and intend to do.

Yes they did have a responsibility and yes they failed the club and their supporters, I want to make sure that these don't do the same.

[One_Matty_Lucas]

Southampton - dropped to league one before doing amazing things, the risk paid off for these
Swansea - Philosophy we could have had under SOD got them success which is paying for their signings, they didnt buy success.
West Brom - Yoyo club with a sustainable model turned into overachievers.
Cardiff - Sold their soul
Hull - Sold their soul, look at the debt
Norwich - Didnt spend over the odds to get from league one to premier league.
Blackburn - Crashing and burning now
Blackpool - Oyston took the Premier League money himself, not reinvested
Brighton - Havent spent too much
Ipswich - Still midtable mediocrity
Leicester - Always also rans

[Chris Black come back]

Dismiss Southmapton. Their former owner and then his legacy on death means they are financially in a different league. What they have done well over recent years is bring through and then flog for major money their youth team output.

Only possible model we could hope to replicate is Swansea but even their gates at Championship level were far better than ours.

[wilts rover]

Swansea had a lot more finance in their ST than we have, don't underplay that.
Brighton not spent much! With full stadiums they have lost £8m per season since moving to the Amex, big worries there apparently.
Leicester's Malaysian owners have spent in the region of £100m trying to get them in the PL since they took over.
Hull are owned by a local shipping magnet. Its up to him if he wants to spend his money funding them, and whether or not he writes off his debts - why do you say they have sold their soul? He also funds both RL clubs in the town too. Spending a lot more money than is coming through the gates, its the model many people are asking both Terry Bramall and SC to provide.

[One_Matty_Lucas]

Hull have changed/are changing the name, seems like they arent the community club we are aiming for.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Savvy

Of course we could spend £60m and end up with a bunch of gutless Kitsons like that lot today...

[albie]

Looking at the list of good examples Wellred suggested, from those currently in the Championship none were in good financial health in the 2012 accounts.

Net debt was as follows;
Brighton £110.3m (annual loss £9.3m)
Ipswich  £ 72.5m (annual loss £16m)
Leicester £ 85.4m (annual loss £29.7m)

With clubs like Blackburn and Blackpool, recent premiership status means you are not comparing apples with apples, because of the parachute money.

Back on the OP topic, has Reece Wabara now returned to Man City?
His loan was up in January, and if he is now ruled out by injury I guess that is the end of his Rovers spell.

[donnyguy61]

Reece Wabara ‏@ReeceWabara 1h
4-5 weeks out! Dissapointed but Blessing in disguise, had a scan on Friday! 1 or 2more games and I would of broke my foot specialist said

[BillyStubbsTears]

"Have" Reece. It's f**king "HAVE".

[Chris Black come back]

Looking at the list of good examples Wellred suggested, from those currently in the Championship none were in good financial health in the 2012 accounts.

Net debt was as follows;
Brighton £110.3m (annual loss £9.3m)
Ipswich  £ 72.5m (annual loss £16m)
Leicester £ 85.4m (annual loss £29.7m)

With clubs like Blackburn and Blackpool, recent premiership status means you are not comparing apples with apples, because of the parachute money.

Back on the OP topic, has Reece Wabara now returned to Man City?
His loan was up in January, and if he is now ruled out by injury I guess that is the end of his Rovers spell.

I am no accountant but I imagine the huge size of the Brighton debt was almost entirely due to their brand new stadium which had just opened that season. If you are going to get into debt then a brand new stadium is a productive use of debt.