Scottish Independence

[IC1967]

I can't for the life of me understand why Dave Cameron wants the UK to stay intact. If the Scots vote for independence then the Tories would easily be the biggest party in Westminster. Labour would be finished in England.

So come on Dave, wise up and encourage the Scots to vote for independence. You know it makes sense.

[Glyn_Wigley]

The hint is in the full name of his party.

[wesisback]

Conserve? Their lovely Raspberry jam?

[moses]

If Dave's real motive was Scottish Independence he would be up there every week.
I can't think there would be a better motivator for getting the Scots to vote for independence than Dave's smug voice telling them they should vote for the Union.
Perhaps that's why he has kept his head down south.

[The Red Baron]

Cameron is absolutely right not to engage in a debate with Salmond. Cameron could win the arguments hands down yet still do damage to the NO campaign. The Scots need to be told some home truths about the dangers of voting for independence, but not by an Englishman, especially one with a posh voice. They need to be told them by a fellow Scot.

Though whether Alistair Darling is the man to tell them is another matter. The NO campaign could have chosen someone with a bit more charisma to lead them- there must be literally thousands of candidates! 

[Glyn_Wigley]

Cameron is absolutely right not to engage in a debate with Salmond. Cameron could win the arguments hands down yet still do damage to the NO campaign.

Cameron might win the argument on facts, but Salmond would wipe the floor with him on a performance and charisma basis. THAT'S why Cameron is refusing to engage with him, he knows it and daren't be made to look second best.

[Rios]

Cameron is absolutely right not to engage in a debate with Salmond. Cameron could win the arguments hands down yet still do damage to the NO campaign.

Cameron might win the argument on facts, but Salmond would wipe the floor with him on a performance and charisma basis. THAT'S why Cameron is refusing to engage with him, he knows it and daren't be made to look second best.

Every time Cameron opens his posh, English mouth on the subject he adds votes to the Yes campaign.  A lot of the people voting yes are those that aren't really interested in the issues or future of the country, but more of their perceived hatred of the English.  Twenty years ago maybe, but with both countries now having large ethnic and continental european immigration populations the concept of seperate countries within the UK is becoming more and more diluted and I'd far rather be an equal(ish) partner in the UK than a very small player in the EU.

[IC1967]

It boils my piss that the Welsh and Scottish can have their own parliaments but in England we can't. This means that Labour always have a chance of forming a government on the back of 'foreign' MPs from Wales and Scotland. Just look at the damage the last 2 Scottish leaders of the Labour party wreaked on England.

England is a naturally Conservative country. We don't want Scottish people ruining our country. Let's form an English parliament and get rid of Wales and Scotland. These countries are a drain on England and we'd be far better off without them.

[roversdude]

I hate to say this but for once I agree with IC1967
Can't understand how the outposts have their own parliament but are still allowed a vote in Westminster on issues regarding England

[Serring]

.... and....
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/doncaster--is-part-of-scotland--after-900-year-old-administrative-error-comes-to-light.html#AaoXf5C

[The Red Baron]

Good old Alex Salmond seems to be from the General Melchett school of philosophy, i.e. "If nothing else works, a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through."

The Chancellor, Shadow Chancellor, the Lib Dem treasury spokesman (a Scot, btw) and the senior civil servant at the treasury tell him an independent Scotland won't be able to keep the pound and he accuses them of bluffing.

A senior Eurocrat tells him that an independent Scotland won't just be waved in to EU membership and he says the fellow is talking nonsense.

The trouble is that at least 40% of Scots voters probably believe him and think everything is a plot devised by "English Tories."

As I said before, the Scots need to be told some home truths by someone who speaks their language (or at least speaks with a Scottish accent). Alistair Darling's low-key, charisma-free approach doesn't seem to be working. If Miliband wants to be taken seriously as a potential future PM he needs to tell his Scottish MPs to start getting the message out. Otherwise he'll be looking for 40-odd MPs come 2016. 

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

As a tory voter I doubt I'd lose much sleep over Scotland going it alone. But as someone who grew up in Scotland and has a whole family from there I can't see the value in it. Not one of family intends to vote yes though. They're quite happy as they are right now which is better off than they would be outside of Britain.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

How do you work out that Darling's approach isn't working? The polls have shown the No campaign ahead by 15-30% for over a year (apart from a handful of outliers, mainly commissioned by the SNP or the partisan Wings over Scotland group).

The Referendum result will be a No victory by 20%. Salmond's case is fuller of holes than the under crackies I wore on a particularly special night back in 1989, which I have refused to part with since.

What I really don't understand about the Scots is why they didn't jump for independence back in 79 when the issue was first put to the vote. Had they done so then, and got a deal to keep even a part of the oil money, they would have been one of the richest nations on earth. Instead, the SNP calls a referendum when:
a) the oil is starting to run out
b) the Celtic Tiger model that they believed in was blown out of the water by the financial crisis and
c) their long-cherished aim of joining the Euro is as popular as popery in Govan.

[The Red Baron]

BST

Last year the polls showed that the No campaign had roughly a 20% lead. This year that lead is narrowing to around 16-17%. However, the big concern for the No camp is still the numbers of undecideds. The danger is that most of these would really like to vote Yes but remain unconvinced that an independent Scotland won't very quickly become an economic basket case.

Salmond's message has been pitched at these voters and it basically is that an independent Scotland can have its cake and eat it. Yes, it will have to take on a share of UK debt, but it will be able to keep the pound and the Bank of England as a lender of last resort. So, if the Scottish economy tanks, either as a result of global conditions or policy failures, the B of E (and the rest of the UK) will be obliged to bail out Scotland. Also, Scotland would be able to have EU membership and therefore would not lose access to European markets.

The interventions from the Chancellor and the other economic portfilio holders at Westminster and the comments from Barroso at the weekend should be fatally damaging to Salmond's case. However, he is brushing them off as (a) negotiating positions but also (b) bullying by the English Tories who are getting the Eurocrats to do their dirty work for them. The next batch of polls will therefore be interesting, but I'd wager that they show the Yes vote hardening slightly.

That's why I think it is important that Scottish politicians of stature (who will be by definition mostly Labour or Lib Dem) tell the Scottish electorate how it is. You are right to point out the adverse conditions they are likely to face vis-a-vis oil and the global economy. But also they are likely to face the prospect of signing up to the Euro as a condition of joining the EU and of being isolated from the rest of the UK.

The No campaign to date may have worked with its "softly softly" approach, but to me if it is going to avoid a very close poll indeed come September it is going to have to raise its game. And relying on English politicians and Eurocrats to get the message over is likely to prove counter-productive.

Incidentally, the Scots were not offered independence in 1979. They were offered devolution and did not vote for it with sufficient strength for it to be carried. Had they done so, it would probably have paved the way for an independence vote some time in the late-80s or 90s in which case the "Celtic Tiger" model would have been highly relevant.

[Glyn_Wigley]

What I really don't understand about the Scots is why they didn't jump for independence back in 79 when the issue was first put to the vote.

Because 1979 wasn't a vote for independence, it was a referendum on devolution just as the one in 1997 was.

[Highland Rover]

As an Englishman living in Scotland , I must admit to having voted SNP in the past as I thought they were the right party for the country at the time and my local MSP has helped my local community out with various problems . As the referendum approaches I have a feeling that it will be close but it would appear to be a generation issue , the older generation ( me included ) are concerned over financial issues like pensions , council tax , free prescriptions etc while the younger element are all for sticking it up to Westminster !!
To me , the very term independent dosen't mean keeping the Queen , UK passports , the pound etc and as someone has already pointed out , the oil revenue isn't going to last forever .

[IC1967]

Look it's very simple. It is a fact that the Scots hate the English (I don't blame them given the history between the two countries). Given this is the case why is anyone in England remotely concerned about the breakup of the UK?

They will only stay with the UK if they think they will be better off financially. That is not the right attitude. Given they hate the English so much they should be encouraged to go it alone and then England can get on with powering ahead without Scotland being a drain on the economy.

[River Don]

Is it a fact the Scots hate the English?

Not in my experience.


For me Scotland should look around at comparable small North European states, Norway, Denmark, Iceland and Ireland and try and weigh up what the pitfalls and benefits of independence might be say ten years down the line.

I think this country has a problem in that it is over centralised, London sucks in all the investment. I don't think the pound is really a good currency for most of the country beyond London. I think the economy is run for the benefit of the city first and foremost. If the Scots do vote for independence then they need their own currency, so the Scottish economy can work for them. They may need to retain the pound for a while but they would have to ditch it as soon as they could.

If the Scots did make a success of it, there could be a great many benefits for us in the North of England. Personally I hope they have the courage to break away but when it comes down to it I don't think they will.

[BillyStubbsTears]

This is fun just reading Mickipedia and not joining in. It all falls into place. His approach to every problem is so one-dimensional, it'd make a 4H pencil line look obese.

[IC1967]

Anyone who doesn't believe that the Scots hate the English with a passion is living in cloud cuckoo land. It is unbelievably naive to pretend they don't. Of course they are going to be nice to your face, especially if they are living in England. However you go North of the border and if you speak to an honest Scot they will tell you the truth.

The Scots hate the English because for centuries, the English treated them like second class citizens, often denying them the simplest necessities for survival. English power at the time gave away most Scottish land to wealthy English land owners.

Remember Braveheart? They were jumping up and down and cheering like a football crowd in the cinemas when the Scots were giving the English a good kicking. Game set and match.

[Orlandokarla]

Anyone who doesn't believe that the Scots hate the English with a passion is living in cloud cuckoo land. It is unbelievably naive to pretend they don't. Of course they are going to be nice to your face, especially if they are living in England. However you go North of the border and if you speak to an honest Scot they will tell you the truth.

Remember Braveheart? They were jumping up and down and cheering like a football crowd in the cinemas when the Scots were giving the English a good kicking. Game set and match.

I work at the Highland Games every year, and it's never more than friendly banter, no matter how drunk they get. Considering the bulk of these blokes, and how many of them carry weapons, It's fortunate for me that you've no idea what you're talking about! In the 6 or 7 years I've worked there, the only bitter, hate-filled person I've ever had issue with was irish.

[Filo]

Anyone who doesn't believe that the Scots hate the English with a passion is living in cloud cuckoo land. It is unbelievably naive to pretend they don't. Of course they are going to be nice to your face, especially if they are living in England. However you go North of the border and if you speak to an honest Scot they will tell you the truth.

The Scots hate the English because for centuries, the English treated them like second class citizens, often denying them the simplest necessities for survival. English power at the time gave away most Scottish land to wealthy English land owners.

Remember Braveheart? They were jumping up and down and cheering like a football crowd in the cinemas when the Scots were giving the English a good kicking. Game set and match.

Mick, It might come as a shock to you, but Mel Gibson is n't Scotish!

[wilts rover]

Anyone who doesn't believe that the Scots hate the English with a passion is living in cloud cuckoo land. It is unbelievably naive to pretend they don't. Of course they are going to be nice to your face, especially if they are living in England. However you go North of the border and if you speak to an honest Scot they will tell you the truth.

The Scots hate the English because for centuries, the English treated them like second class citizens, often denying them the simplest necessities for survival. English power at the time gave away most Scottish land to wealthy English land owners.

Remember Braveheart? They were jumping up and down and cheering like a football crowd in the cinemas when the Scots were giving the English a good kicking. Game set and match.

Eh, which centuries were those then? Until 1707 Scotland was an independent country, England didnt rule it and therefore had no say in who owned the land. Exactly the opposite. After 1603 when England was ruled by a Scottish king, James VI, he granted land in England to his Scottish favourites, as did his Scottish son Charles I.

Following the Act of Union, which abolished England as an independent country, Scotand was divided betwen those who supported the United Kingdom - and those who didnt. And has pretty much stayed that way since.  For most of that period it has quite often been Scots who have been the most enthusiastic supporters of the UK, especially the army, you obviously didnt know that in the First World War the Scots provided more recruits per head of population than the English.

It is only in recent years that land which is has been owned (run by) the same families for hundreds (if not thousands) of years has been bought up by foreign owners, which the Scots are not too happy about, again England has had nothing whatsoever to do with it.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/who-owns-scotland-1320933.html

[RedJ]

Anyone who doesn't believe that the Scots hate the English with a passion is living in cloud cuckoo land. It is unbelievably naive to pretend they don't. Of course they are going to be nice to your face, especially if they are living in England. However you go North of the border and if you speak to an honest Scot they will tell you the truth.

The Scots hate the English because for centuries, the English treated them like second class citizens, often denying them the simplest necessities for survival. English power at the time gave away most Scottish land to wealthy English land owners.

Remember Braveheart? They were jumping up and down and cheering like a football crowd in the cinemas when the Scots were giving the English a good kicking. Game set and match.

Mick, It might come as a shock to you, but Mel Gibson is n't Scotish!

Come on now, are we really going to allow facts to get in the way of a good old fashioned Mick rant?

[IC1967]

Calling all honest Scotchmen. Can just one of you come on here and tell the doubting Englishmen just how much your fellow countrymen hate the English as there are a lot of deluded naive folk on this forum.

[RedJ]

I have Scottish grandparents and they sure as hell don't hate the English.

[bobjimwilly]

Calling all honest Scotchmen. Can just one of you come on here and tell the doubting Englishmen just how much your fellow countrymen hate the English as there are a lot of deluded naive folk on this forum.

can you go one day without being the biggest WUM ever? You're filling my unread posts screen with garbage and it's getting bloody annoying tbh

[IC1967]

I'll have you know know all I'm doing is expressing my honestly held views. You obviously have trouble dealing with anyone's views that aren't left wing or politically correct.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Here's a Scot who doesn't hate the English. He says those words precisely. Apparently they were jumping up and down celebrating in Scottish cinemas when he said this. Trust me. I know what I'm talking about.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1tJJO_pVvQ" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1tJJO_pVvQ</a>

[IC1967]

Look. I've worked with Scotch people. I've asked them the question and the unequivocal answer is that they hate the English with a passion. Seems like a lot of English people on this forum can't handle not being liked by the Scotch. I'd have thought English people would have been used to this. 

The Scotch are only one of many races that aren't too keen on England. Unfortunately the history of England isn't taught properly in schools and English people are blissfully unaware of the bad feeling that is out there.

Why on earth do you think we never win the Eurovision Song Contest?