Singing section

[silent majority]

From a neutral perspective, you can understand if there is evidence of unruly behaviour in that section then the club want to nip it in the bud before it gets out of hand. Moreover, I'm sure you're all aware, policing costs can be a high burden on the club.

I'm sure, in one form or another we support a singing section however, as said above if this is being used as an excuse for unruly behaviour and to intimidate away fans, then those in favour of it need to understand the difference between this and creating an atmosphere. The two are not the same.

I've always maintained the South Stand is the best place to grow a kop/singing section, call it what you like. Creating a good atmosphere in a ground takes much more than this though. 

Why isn't more done then to stop away fans doing the same thing? The way the Barnsley fans were allowed to continually throw things into the home fans without anyone being ejected was disgusting.

Mr Frost,

If you must ask questions of this nature then at least pay attention to the responses you get, it would help. When you raised this after the Barnsley game I, and a couple of others, told you that the culprits had all been identified and arrested as they left the stadium. 7 Barnsley fans are currently facing Police charges and have had their season tickets suspended pending banning orders.

Why is everything you write slanted in a negative way to either DRFC or it's supporters? I do find it odd.

[wesisback]

Thats where my worry lies. I dont think the club like the idea of this as it's a bit harder for them to man.
If they keep playing the safe, family with no atmosphere card they'll be sat in the same half empty stadium scenario regardless of years in the Championship. 

[MrFrost]

From a neutral perspective, you can understand if there is evidence of unruly behaviour in that section then the club want to nip it in the bud before it gets out of hand. Moreover, I'm sure you're all aware, policing costs can be a high burden on the club.

I'm sure, in one form or another we support a singing section however, as said above if this is being used as an excuse for unruly behaviour and to intimidate away fans, then those in favour of it need to understand the difference between this and creating an atmosphere. The two are not the same.

I've always maintained the South Stand is the best place to grow a kop/singing section, call it what you like. Creating a good atmosphere in a ground takes much more than this though. 

Why isn't more done then to stop away fans doing the same thing? The way the Barnsley fans were allowed to continually throw things into the home fans without anyone being ejected was disgusting.

Mr Frost,

If you must ask questions of this nature then at least pay attention to the responses you get, it would help. When you raised this after the Barnsley game I, and a couple of others, told you that the culprits had all been identified and arrested as they left the stadium. 7 Barnsley fans are currently facing Police charges and have had their season tickets suspended pending banning orders.

Why is everything you write slanted in a negative way to either DRFC or it's supporters? I do find it odd.

Why weren't they ejected during the game is my question?

[normal rules]

let me decifer this.

continue to pump numbers into the "singing section" causing larger numbers of supporters to get closer to away supporters and there will have to be a larger steward/police presence to keep them apart, therefore costing the club more. simples.

it is for this reason the singing section was always going to be on stony ground. there will always be elements of this group seeking direct confrontation with away supporters. it would seem the incident post Watford game backs up this theory, and I stress this is my theory alone.

but I do know a thing or two about crowd dynamics.

[SLO@DRFC]

From a neutral perspective, you can understand if there is evidence of unruly behaviour in that section then the club want to nip it in the bud before it gets out of hand. Moreover, I'm sure you're all aware, policing costs can be a high burden on the club.

I'm sure, in one form or another we support a singing section however, as said above if this is being used as an excuse for unruly behaviour and to intimidate away fans, then those in favour of it need to understand the difference between this and creating an atmosphere. The two are not the same.

I've always maintained the South Stand is the best place to grow a kop/singing section, call it what you like. Creating a good atmosphere in a ground takes much more than this though. 

Why isn't more done then to stop away fans doing the same thing? The way the Barnsley fans were allowed to continually throw things into the home fans without anyone being ejected was disgusting.

Mr Frost,

If you must ask questions of this nature then at least pay attention to the responses you get, it would help. When you raised this after the Barnsley game I, and a couple of others, told you that the culprits had all been identified and arrested as they left the stadium. 7 Barnsley fans are currently facing Police charges and have had their season tickets suspended pending banning orders.

Why is everything you write slanted in a negative way to either DRFC or it's supporters? I do find it odd.

Why weren't they ejected during the game is my question?

Mr Frost,

Some of the away supporters from Barnsley were ejected for numerous reasons throughout the game in question. All ejections and action taken by the stewarding team must be confirmed from the control room before it takes place, rather than wading in and causing more tension between fans as we have seen at other clubs, some incidents require review of CCTV footage and other things before stewards are instructed to eject.

Some fans were using flags and other fans to shield themselves being seen for setting off smoke bombs but were ejected/arrested either during the game or as SM says afterwords, following the review.

Similarly when Burnley came to the Keepmoat we received some questions from fans that they never saw anyone ejected that game after a smoke bomb was let off in the away end, but that was because an ejection took place after the culprit went down to the concourses minutes later.

Ejections such as that are an effective measure with minimum fuss and doesn't require wading through a crowd, which can sometimes bring innocent fans into harms way. Obviously, when there is no other option but to do this it is done effectively. However just because we as fans don't see it, doesn't mean nothing is happening.

Hope this helps!

[RTID75]

Stop it. You're ruining his conspiracy theories now!

[Padge_DRFC]

So a week on Saturday when we play Sheffield Wednesday will we not have as many police and stewards if we don't have a singing section? No because there will be 4000 away fans there anyway.

Let them in the corner have their banter, it's part of football. It just seems nowadays at the KM we just want 7000 home fans sat down behaving.

Look at Manchester United this season. Doing everything they can to promote this and to accommodate their more rowdier fans and groups of lads.

Removing this is just going to push away these groups of lads having them spread around the ground sat quietly from attending.

I know so many people who only go to away games because of this.

[MrFrost]

So a week on Saturday when we play Sheffield Wednesday will we not have as many police and stewards if we don't have a singing section? No because there will be 4000 away fans there anyway.

Let them in the corner have their banter, it's part of football. It just seems nowadays at the KM we just want 7000 home fans sat down behaving.

Look at Manchester United this season. Doing everything they can to promote this and to accommodate their more rowdier fans and groups of lads.

Removing this is just going to push away these groups of lads having them spread around the ground sat quietly from attending.

I know so many people who only go to away games because of this.

Ditto. The club don't want rowdiness, that's plain to see.

[Mr1Croft]

Look at Manchester United this season. Doing everything they can to promote this and to accommodate their more rowdier fans and groups of lads.

Manchester United? Sorry I don't buy that, apart from having much more money to spend on policing costs etc., its 15 years too late for most of their 'fans', especially considering some of their most passionate fans have formed their own football club...

[Padge_DRFC]

I take it you've not seen their  support away from home then this season? Why is it 15 years too late?

[Mr1Croft]

Our away support is also much more better away from home, the point is here about MUFC at Old Trafford, not away from home...


Its 15 years too late because their most passionate fans left Old Trafford and what has become Sky FC to form FC United of Manchester in 2005, but it was in the pipeline long before that when BSkyB were looking to takeover the club.

They have great away support because most of the FCUM fans still support them away, they just refuse to go to Old Trafford...

[MrFrost]

Our away support is also much more better away from home, the point is here about MUFC at Old Trafford, not away from home...


Its 15 years too late because their most passionate fans left Old Trafford and what has become Sky FC to form FC United of Manchester in 2005, but it was in the pipeline long before that when BSkyB were looking to takeover the club.

They have great away support because most of the FCUM fans still support them away, they just refuse to go to Old Trafford...

Which is what is happening at the Keepmoat, people prefer away games.

[Padge_DRFC]

Wonder how they all get tickets for away games without a ST at Old Trafford.

[Tokyos Boot]

Its new hat to a lot of our prawn sandwich supporters to see fans stood on their feet, singing their little lungs out or to hear the odd swear.

At the end of the day, football should cater towards ALL who are interested in going to the games, wether that be the families with small impressionable kids, or the groups of teenage lads who are perhaps a bit rough around the edges... if we are to believe that they aren't a part of football culture and to try to force them out of coming then we're losing out on a massive market! Just look at any other support!!!

For every literate moaning wholesome father, i'll bet theres 4 or 5 illiterate teenage 'intimidating', foul mouthed lads - just because that father can afford a season ticket does that mean he means more to us and our 'brand' than these teens? Does their money, time, passion and needs not count as valid supporters?

Its a shame that these people aren't prioritised and given an area to be loud, annoying, tribal and 'intimidating' (near the away support, as it is in MOST other grounds) because it is THE major problem with the KMS. We should be turning our ground into a fortress of hell for visitors, it SHOULD be an uncomfortable experience, not a welcoming foyer for a lovely day out.

A class divide is necessary to stop the snobs that came along with the KMS rebrand from feeling 'intimidated' by having to look at a spotty lad in a tracksuit, just like we had at BV - they can judge from their seats, whilst the fans who want to have some 'banter' (a frightening word for the pseudo intellectual) and create an atmosphere can do it without upsetting anyone!

This is a market that feels disenfranchised by the KMS and the Rovers they know (knew?) and loved at BV on the popside, and is a culture we need to preserve - because they are plugging their money in other stadiums instead!

We used to be a pub-team band of rascals, we're now a nicely oiled corporate money machine, give me back my pub team any day!

[bobjimwilly]

First off, a lot of the "prawn sandwich brigade" have been there and dunnit before you were born; they stood on terraces for years and if it's there choice to sit now, separate from the singers, they've earned that choice.

DRFC are trying to cater to all fans, hence allowing the trial of the singing section.

The keepmoat SHOULD NOT be an uncomfortable place to come for away fans and the modern game will not allow it. And I'm sure you've done plenty of research on this but just because you write that we need fans with intimidating & tribal attitudes, it doesn't mean it's actually true (although I don't find 100 or so young teenagers taking their shoes off that intimidating in the slightest, but I digress). In fact, most of the fans who are complaining about this and that on facebook would have been under 10 when we were still at Belle-Vue, which speaks volumes when they try and compare OBV with the Keepmoat.

And if DRFC were simply a corporate money machine, wouldn't we be charged the sort of prices you see at Leeds, with all their tribal, amazing fans? Who are really the fans getting bent over?

[Boomstick]

Well said tim Ryan, the sterilisation of football is ruining it. It's one of the reasons we all fell in love with the game.
The Keepmoat is a soulless place as it is.

[Boomstick]

First off, a lot of the "prawn sandwich brigade" have been there and dunnit before you were born; they stood on terraces for years and if it's there choice to sit now, separate from the singers, they've earned that choice.

DRFC are trying to cater to all fans, hence allowing the trial of the singing section.

The keepmoat SHOULD NOT be an uncomfortable place to come for away fans and the modern game will not allow it. And I'm sure you've done plenty of research on this but just because you write that we need fans with intimidating & tribal attitudes, it doesn't mean it's actually true (although I don't find 100 or so young teenagers taking their shoes off that intimidating in the slightest, but I digress). In fact, most of the fans who are complaining about this and that on facebook would have been under 10 when we were still at Belle-Vue, which speaks volumes when they try and compare OBV with the Keepmoat.

And if DRFC were simply a corporate money machine, wouldn't we be charged the sort of prices you see at Leeds, with all their tribal, amazing fans? Who are really the fans getting bent over?

Bore off, not sure why you like football. Perhaps you would be better suited to watching cricket, or snooker.
The keepmoat should be a fortress that teams dread to visit. When I go to away games, I expect to be intimidated, it's part of the buzz of football, all stood together outnumbered in someone else's back yard.
I tend to avoid the boring soulless stadiums, (mk dons, Bournemouth, reading. Instead I go to the ones with a bit of an edge about them, like sheffield utd, forest, millwall.
It's time Rovers stopped being so nice, time to toughen up, and give the visitors hell. as I expect to receive when Rovers go away.

[bobjimwilly]

I'll bore off when you grow up 

[Tokyos Boot]

First off, a lot of the "prawn sandwich brigade" have been there and dunnit before you were born; they stood on terraces for years and if it's there choice to sit now, separate from the singers, they've earned that choice.

DRFC are trying to cater to all fans, hence allowing the trial of the singing section.

The keepmoat SHOULD NOT be an uncomfortable place to come for away fans and the modern game will not allow it. And I'm sure you've done plenty of research on this but just because you write that we need fans with intimidating & tribal attitudes, it doesn't mean it's actually true (although I don't find 100 or so young teenagers taking their shoes off that intimidating in the slightest, but I digress). In fact, most of the fans who are complaining about this and that on facebook would have been under 10 when we were still at Belle-Vue, which speaks volumes when they try and compare OBV with the Keepmoat.

And if DRFC were simply a corporate money machine, wouldn't we be charged the sort of prices you see at Leeds, with all their tribal, amazing fans? Who are really the fans getting bent over?

Listen, im not trying to say people aren't entitled to sit down and enjoy the game in peace as they wish. Each to their own! Im merely saying, that them people alone shouldn't be catered to. First class train travellers want to enjoy their journey in peace without having to sit next to 'Barry the commoner' listening to his music too loud too, and they are indulged as well, put in the according place to keep them from having to step off their high horse!

I'd actually argue that most of the people who have been privileged enough to enjoy the fantastic experience of BV's popside probably don't go anymore (wether for monetary, cultural, matchday experience reasons is a different debate) and if they do, they probably aren't happy with the current atmosphere and vibe at the KMS.

I think the current middle classers and families became recruited as part of the 'new' DRFC, the new stadium launch and the clean environment - they have enjoyed the nice experience of our bouts of success in the Champo and never the Rushden aways or being penned in that bloody alleyway at Rotherham!!

Why we are trying to cater to JUST these people is beyond me, we're leaving the die-hards (and it seems the next generation of diehards) behind by marketing them out of the game!

[The Red Baron]

Sweeping generalisation there, mate. I used to stand on the Popside until we left Belle Vue. I had a season ticket there for the best part of 20 years and never thought of moving to anywhere else in BV. Now I sit in the West Stand (centre section) and still enjoy the experience.

I'm not saying that nothing should be done to improve the atmosphere, but to argue that the matchday experience at the Keepmoat is significantly worse than that at BV is just wrong as far as I'm concerned.

[Boomstick]

As far as I'm concerned, the atmosphere is a lot worse at the keepmoat. What happened to the main stand gobshites? what happened to the 200 or so at the centre of the pop terrace?

[bobjimwilly]

Attendance comparisons with OBV have been mentioned a few times. If the following stats are true, OBV didn't hold, on average, anywhere near as many people as the Keepmoat sees on a regular basis

http://www.european-football-statistics.co.uk/attnclub/donr.htm

[bobjimwilly]

As far as I'm concerned, the atmosphere is a lot worse at the keepmoat. What happened to the main stand gobshites? what happened to the 200 or so at the centre of the pop terrace?

it's all rose tinted though. For many, many games as a youngster I stood in the Town end and the place was that quiet my dad could shout at me not to wander off, safe in the knowledge I could clearly here him.

[Boomstick]

Yes, but we aren't talking about attendances. We are talking about match day atmosphere. More fans DOES NOT equal better atmosphere

[silent majority]

TB,

Far too simplistic I'm afraid. And wrong. Our club can't be accused of catering just for middle classes and the family audience, our pricing structure alone would tell you that as a club every sector (just about) of the local community are catered for. Our club is different to quite a few in that we are missing a generation or two, hence the importance of growing the supporter base from the ground up and focusing on children of school age.

Most of the people who sit around me, the East stand by the way, have all been there, seen it, and done it, unlike a lot of people commenting on it on here. We were part of 'Archie's Army', we attended when football wasn't popular and riddled with hooliganism throughout the 60's and 70's. We attended England games abroad, still do, and have been treated appallingly by local plod, battered by truncheon wielding thugs dressed in paramilitary uniforms. We've seen it all.

But, to suggest the way forward is to find a return to those times when intimidation was the order of the day is wrong, wrong, wrong. Yes you have to cater for all, and match day pricing is a large part of that, as are singing sections. Our club do want to help in all those areas and have never refused to listen to voices of reason.

I would suggest that if you think our club is poor in these respects then you have no idea how other clubs operate. Most supporters I know would give their left arm for their clubs to be as cooperative as ours is.

[Boomstick]

As far as I'm concerned, the atmosphere is a lot worse at the keepmoat. What happened to the main stand gobshites? what happened to the 200 or so at the centre of the pop terrace?

it's all rose tinted though. For many, many games as a youngster I stood in the Town end and the place was that quiet my dad could shout at me not to wander off, safe in the knowledge I could clearly here him.

It's not rose tints, on the pop terrace where I stood, the atmosphere was a lot better. that could be anything from chants, to lone gobshites gobbing off. At the keepmoat everyone just sits there waiting to be entertained, and it's become all very dull.

[silent majority]

As far as I'm concerned, the atmosphere is a lot worse at the keepmoat. What happened to the main stand gobshites? what happened to the 200 or so at the centre of the pop terrace?

it's all rose tinted though. For many, many games as a youngster I stood in the Town end and the place was that quiet my dad could shout at me not to wander off, safe in the knowledge I could clearly here him.

It's not rose tints, on the pop terrace where I stood, the atmosphere was a lot better. that could be anything from chants, to lone gobshites gobbing off. At the keepmoat everyone just sits there waiting to be entertained, and it's become all very dull.

That's what you get with designated seating. The people haven't changed, just the way the stadium is organised.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

As far as I'm concerned, the atmosphere is a lot worse at the keepmoat. What happened to the main stand gobshites? what happened to the 200 or so at the centre of the pop terrace?

We got older. Times have changed you either move with them or miss out. This singing section is in the wrong place it just doesn't work.

It's all well and good wanting a hostile section but if it costs the club 250k plus which it will then it's obvious that it's a non starter.  congregate in the middle of the south stand and it's not going to be massively different is it?

[Tokyos Boot]

As far as I'm concerned, the atmosphere is a lot worse at the keepmoat. What happened to the main stand gobshites? what happened to the 200 or so at the centre of the pop terrace?

it's all rose tinted though. For many, many games as a youngster I stood in the Town end and the place was that quiet my dad could shout at me not to wander off, safe in the knowledge I could clearly here him.

It's not rose tints, on the pop terrace where I stood, the atmosphere was a lot better. that could be anything from chants, to lone gobshites gobbing off. At the keepmoat everyone just sits there waiting to be entertained, and it's become all very dull.

That's what you get with designated seating. The people haven't changed, just the way the stadium is organised.

I agree with that statement wholeheartedly.

A lot of my anger at the re-franchising of football, it supporters and the 'matchday' experience doesn't stem from Doncaster Rovers, per say, we're nowhere near as bad as a lot of other clubs, its a nationwide problem.

The reputation of the football fans from the 70's and 80's has stuck like shit, and we're scared to straddle that line between 'healthy rivalry' and a bit of intimidation for safety reasons.

Are you telling me that these stewards and police believe little Johnny nobhead in his Kicker Poppers with his other 5 mates who've never had a shave and are chanting 'abusive' songs are an actual threat akin to the firms of the 80's? Of course they arent! People claiming that these lads are 'intimidating A certain level of understanding into proper 'football culture' needs to be executed by our stewards and safety officers to successfully pull off this Singing Section - i'd recommend we train them up by sending them to Poznan for a few games, or even Leeds or Millwall to officiate their fans... come back with a positive and rounded opinion that our 'troublesome' supporters are angels by most clubs standards.

I'm so disappointed to hear the KMS have decided to ban this when it is just getting off the ground, because a few people find it 'intimidating'. They need to assess what intimidates them, and man up a little - or move to a new, nicer area of the stadium!

[Padge_DRFC]

Reason it's not in the middle of the South Stand is because right in the middle of the South Stand it's heavily populated with Season ticket holders compared to the NW.