Singing section

[Tokyos Boot]

If someone started swearing and using threatening behaviour in a pub, would you;

1)   Bar the person from the premises.
2)   Tell him to sit somewhere else.
3)   Declare the table he was sat at out of bounds for future patrons.

Of course the obvious answer is (or should be!) number one. Number 2 simply moves the trouble to a different part of the pub, and number 3 just reduces the capacity of the pub.

I think it’s common sense really.......

Pub culture and football culture arent exactly the same though are they?

Try this analogy - if a regular had a few too many and started having a dance and annoying a few punters despite most of the other punters enjoying his behaviour and agreeing the pub needs a bit more life to it...

Would you bar that punter for life?

Depends if your running a life and soul, loud and proud pub or a quiet wine bar doesnt it!

[Filo]

   To be fair I cant blame them really...The club have worked hard to get the Police bill down but incidents like Huddersfield wont help their case one bit...Some of them seem quite happy to want to meet there own fellow fans for a ruck so would the club really want them next to the oppositions..no of course they wouldn't...Obviousley they represent only a small minority of fans who want the singing section but a few bad apples always spoil the Barrell...Its the guys who took part in the experiment for all the right reasons who I feel sorry for because once again the mindless few spoil it for everyone else....

The incidents were a flash in the pan. Nothing more and I've heard of far worse happening on match days. It's an excuse for them to ditch it pure and simple.

Ahh just read as well no new season tickets will be sold in that area either so it appears they've drastically reduced the number of cat c season tickets available. Bravo.

Top post MrFrost, you're right!!
The club are using an isolated, outside of the stadium incident by a very small group of idiots to pin a well banded around stereotype onto a project dreamt up by a larger group of positive and pro-active people who are trying to create a bit of an atmosphere around the place!

I think the way the club are going about this will be a nail in the coffin of our hopes of having any continual  atmosphere in the KMS, the club, the stewards, the 'policing budget' and a lot of the more pedantic season ticket holders just don't seem to be willing to accommodate it.

They should do a match-day experience survey amongst KMS visitors, if they could mark a simple 'atmosphere' 1-10 mark on their way out how do you think we'd score? 1, maybe 2 at a push?

Will you be attending the meeting to air your concerns?

Yeah, shall i keep an eye out for you? I've no idea what you look like, but i'll know which table has you, Glyn, Silent Majority and BigCol on it by you all rimming each other...

No, i'll not be there, I haven't got an axe to grind either way. I actually feel sorry for the lads that have put time and effort into getting this initiative off the ground, it's a great initiative that has been spoiled by a small minority, I hope some common ground can be found as a result of the meeting. You seemed to have already come to your conclusions about how things will proceed before the meeting has taken place, which in all fairness is not being helpful, take your thoughts and ideas to the meeting, have some dialogue first before you have your rant, you never know the club might just be receptive to your ideas and opinions.

[Bentley Bullet]

If someone started swearing and using threatening behaviour in a pub, would you;

1)   Bar the person from the premises.
2)   Tell him to sit somewhere else.
3)   Declare the table he was sat at out of bounds for future patrons.

Of course the obvious answer is (or should be!) number one. Number 2 simply moves the trouble to a different part of the pub, and number 3 just reduces the capacity of the pub.

I think it’s common sense really.......

Pub culture and football culture arent exactly the same though are they?

Try this analogy - if a regular had a few too many and started having a dance and annoying a few punters despite most of the other punters enjoying his behaviour and agreeing the pub needs a bit more life to it...

Would you bar that punter for life?

Depends if your running a life and soul, loud and proud pub or a quiet wine bar doesnt it!

If he started swearing and using threatening behaviour, then yes I'd bar him.

[Tokyos Boot]

   To be fair I cant blame them really...The club have worked hard to get the Police bill down but incidents like Huddersfield wont help their case one bit...Some of them seem quite happy to want to meet there own fellow fans for a ruck so would the club really want them next to the oppositions..no of course they wouldn't...Obviousley they represent only a small minority of fans who want the singing section but a few bad apples always spoil the Barrell...Its the guys who took part in the experiment for all the right reasons who I feel sorry for because once again the mindless few spoil it for everyone else....

The incidents were a flash in the pan. Nothing more and I've heard of far worse happening on match days. It's an excuse for them to ditch it pure and simple.

Ahh just read as well no new season tickets will be sold in that area either so it appears they've drastically reduced the number of cat c season tickets available. Bravo.

Top post MrFrost, you're right!!
The club are using an isolated, outside of the stadium incident by a very small group of idiots to pin a well banded around stereotype onto a project dreamt up by a larger group of positive and pro-active people who are trying to create a bit of an atmosphere around the place!

I think the way the club are going about this will be a nail in the coffin of our hopes of having any continual  atmosphere in the KMS, the club, the stewards, the 'policing budget' and a lot of the more pedantic season ticket holders just don't seem to be willing to accommodate it.

They should do a match-day experience survey amongst KMS visitors, if they could mark a simple 'atmosphere' 1-10 mark on their way out how do you think we'd score? 1, maybe 2 at a push?

Will you be attending the meeting to air your concerns?

Yeah, shall i keep an eye out for you? I've no idea what you look like, but i'll know which table has you, Glyn, Silent Majority and BigCol on it by you all rimming each other...

No, i'll not be there, I haven't got an axe to grind either way. I actually feel sorry for the lads that have put time and effort into getting this initiative off the ground, it's a great initiative that has been spoiled by a small minority, I hope some common ground can be found as a result of the meeting. You seemed to have already come to your conclusions about how things will proceed before the meeting has taken place, which in all fairness is not being helpful, take your thoughts and ideas to the meeting, have some dialogue first before you have your rant, you never know the club might just be receptive to your ideas and opinions.

I get the feeling the club is calling a few bluffs with this meeting - how many 'unruly teens' are going to bother with it?

What you'll have is a bunch of people who have the time and the intellect in a room, all with a shared feeling and prejudgement of these gangs of lads, all coming to a very civilised and less 'intimidating solution'.

Its almost like the old 'give them a drum and they'll sing' mentality. Wheras they forget that the answer is 'give them a sense of territory, something to sing about and they'll sing'.

Middle class manufacturing of atmosphere through meeting minutes will not provide an answer to a working class, visceral lads problem!

[silent majority]

Tokyo,

How come my name is brought into this? Or do you feel you can just insult people at will and with no justification?

[bobjimwilly]

why can't everyone just sit in the south stand and sing and stop moaning that they need to be close to opposition fans?
if you want to sing, sing for christs sake.

[RedJ]

I don't get the obsession with being next to the away fans, if I'm honest...

[Tokyos Boot]

Welcome to football club supporting, lesson one:

Put down your petitions and polls, stand up and follow the lead:

It works like this:

Fans chant a bit of support for their team pre match, a few players names etc.

Away fans chant an insult a few mins in - e.g. "empty seats, everywhere"..."i wanna go home" etc.
Home fans respond - "Yorkshire, yorkshire" "Its nice to know your here etc."

Throw in a bit of regional banter, the odd funny chant about a fat fan or another social commentary, the odd game related chant etc. Etc.

They chant directed at you, you chant in response or vice versa.

Stick the singing fans as far away from the away fans and the noise has proven it doesnt travel and all you get it the odd in game 'come on you reds' and the pre match stuff. Cue criticism for terrible atmosphere, away fans leave having had none of the fun interaction they paid and travelled for!

[Tokyos Boot]

Tokyo,

How come my name is brought into this? Or do you feel you can just insult people at will and with no justification?

Sorry - to be fair you do a good job at being reasonably subjective... They just tend to fawn over everything you post on here too! More the rimmee than the rimmer 

[DonnyBazR0ver]

They should do a match-day experience survey amongst KMS visitors, if they could mark a simple 'atmosphere' 1-10 mark on their way out how do you think we'd score? 1, maybe 2 at a push?

Stick the singing fans as far away from the away fans and the noise has proven it doesnt travel and all you get it the odd in game 'come on you reds' and the pre match stuff. Cue criticism for terrible atmosphere, away fans leave having had none of the fun interaction they paid and travelled for!

Depends what you rate a good atmosphere on. 7000 plus may rate it higher than what you think. For me personally that unimaginative chanting doesn't do anything in terms of adding to the atmosphere for me. 

Let's put it to the test. We'll reconvene on here after the match on Saturday and rate the atmosphere out of 10 and give the reasons for your rating.   

[Filo]

Tokyo,

How come my name is brought into this? Or do you feel you can just insult people at will and with no justification?

Sorry - to be fair you do a good job at being reasonably subjective... They just tend to fawn over everything you post on here too! More the rimmee than the rimmer 

I can assure you that I don't fawn over everything SM says, we've had plenty of disagreements, the difference being is we sort things out privately and in a civilised manner, I'm pretty sure that Glynn and Big Col could say the same.

You however come on shouting and balling and then keep a low profile when you've been proved wrong like the SC fiasco, now you've come out of exile and start to renew your digs at the VSC again, the problem is that this singing section is an independent initiative and it's been well received from fans across all sections, it doesn't stop you having a sly dig though does it?

Like I said earlier, take your issues along to the meeting and see what develops, I really hope that a singing section can be accommodated, and if it comes about through the efforts of the lads that instigated it and the meeting attendee's, i'll be pleased for you, lashing out at people that are only making comments on this and not even taking one side or the other is hardly a sensible approach is it?

[RedJ]

Yeah sorry I forgot, you can't support your team properly unless you're stood next to the away fans.

Do you realise how patronising that sounds?

Besides, who gives a f**k if the away fans have enjoyed themselves... I'm not there for their enjoyment am I?

[BigColSutherland]

Tokyos Boot.

I'm glad we've got you acting as a sort of juvenile conduit, translating the views of social media stalwarts into ideas that society as a whole can digest.

If you want to sit with us that would be great. Presumably you'd prefer to chuck your seat at someone, but hopefully you can keep your "passion" in check for an hour or so.

[Tokyos Boot]

gColSutherland link=topic=245072.msg429423#msg429423 date=1395182471]
Tokyos Boot.

I'm glad we've got you acting as a sort of juvenile conduit, translating the views of social media stalwarts into ideas that society as a whole can digest.

If you want to sit with us that would be great. Presumably you'd prefer to chuck your seat at someone, but hopefully you can keep your "passion" in check for an hour or so.
[/quote]

Why thanks - i only appear on here when i feel that a portion of the rovers current demographic is misreprepresented by this forums ever judgemental and usually one sided course of action.

I wouldnt by any means associate myself with these so called louts you all do so well to look down upon but i see them as a culturally more significant fixture to my football club than any season ticket moaner, corporate sponsor or petition starter!

And as for reconvening on HERE, thats the issue - realistically this forum represents the views of i'd guess about 15% of the supporters... And its only the ones who agree with the other posters who can be arsed to stick around through all the mud slinging! So it generates a mutual back patters branch of judgemental decision makers who think they know the needs of all of our support!

[BigColSutherland]

Talk me through the part where I looked down upon this nameless demographic.

[DonnyBazR0ver]

And as for reconvening on HERE, thats the issue - realistically this forum represents the views of i'd guess about 15% of the supporters... And its only the ones who agree with the other posters who can be arsed to stick around through all the mud slinging! So it generates a mutual back patters branch of judgemental decision makers who think they know the needs of all of our support!

That's a no then?

[DonnyBazR0ver]

realistically this forum represents the views of i'd guess about 15% of the supporters

And by the way, seeing as you keep bringing this up, there's a difference between 'representative' and a 'representation'. 

[Tokyos Boot]

Talk me through the part where I looked down upon this nameless demographic.

I tend to agree with a lot of the stuff you say on here BigCol, and as much as MrFrost can waffle some shite on for a response sometimes, i think you and a lot of the regulars let yourselves down with the schoolyard bullying and a constant need to outwit. Does anyone ever just agree to disagree?

And id give it a shot DonnyBaz but id argue before its ever started that its final result wont be a fair representation because of the format, platform and accessibility of the research! Youd have to ask actual supporters leaving the ground to get a fair show!

[Glyn_Wigley]

Whereas schoolyard insults are so much more mature, eh?

[BigColSutherland]

Are you categorising Frosty as a lout then?

I think he's many things, but not a lout. My gripes with him are around his constant negativity about ticket sales. Year after year, the same shit. He's got lots of secret solutions apparently, but no time, other than the year after year he spends on here, to do anything about them.

(Loved your stuff about rimming. Really helped your argument)

[MrFrost]

Are you categorising Frosty as a lout then?

I think he's many things, but not a lout. My gripes with him are around his constant negativity about ticket sales. Year after year, the same shit. He's got lots of secret solutions apparently, but no time, other than the year after year he spends on here, to do anything about them.

(Loved your stuff about rimming. Really helped your argument)

Many things? Such as?

[Filo]

gColSutherland link=topic=245072.msg429423#msg429423 date=1395182471]
Tokyos Boot.

I'm glad we've got you acting as a sort of juvenile conduit, translating the views of social media stalwarts into ideas that society as a whole can digest.

If you want to sit with us that would be great. Presumably you'd prefer to chuck your seat at someone, but hopefully you can keep your "passion" in check for an hour or so.

Why thanks - i only appear on here when i feel that a portion of the rovers current demographic is misreprepresented by this forums ever judgemental and usually one sided course of action.

I wouldnt by any means associate myself with these so called louts you all do so well to look down upon but i see them as a culturally more significant fixture to my football club than any season ticket moaner, corporate sponsor or petition starter!

And as for reconvening on HERE, thats the issue - realistically this forum represents the views of i'd guess about 15% of the supporters... And its only the ones who agree with the other posters who can be arsed to stick around through all the mud slinging! So it generates a mutual back patters branch of judgemental decision makers who think they know the needs of all of our support!
[/quote]


I think you need to read the whole thread again, I can't really see much opposition to a singing section. What I can see is plenty of hot air blown by the usual people and directed in the wrong direction, you keep mentioning the judgmental decision makers on here, again I fail to see where you are coming from, this was a independent supporters led initiative in which you have decided to use in an attempt to have a dig at the VSC and in particular SM, who as far as I can see has remained impartial to the idea in the context of this thread. So who's the one being judgmental?

[BigColSutherland]

Are you categorising Frosty as a lout then?

I think he's many things, but not a lout. My gripes with him are around his constant negativity about ticket sales. Year after year, the same shit. He's got lots of secret solutions apparently, but no time, other than the year after year he spends on here, to do anything about them.

(Loved your stuff about rimming. Really helped your argument)

Many things? Such as?

I haven't got time to tell you.

[wing commander]

    How a group of 15 year old lads clowns,running round town and circling the Keepmoat causing the club an increase in costs are culturally more significant than season ticket holders who support their club year in and out with cold hard cash is quite simply beyond me Tokyo.....
   

[Tokyos Boot]

Well, financially they are probably a much better asset. Granted, that money isn't given 'pre-budget', but we're talking about a potential market of die-hards who (if nurtured) may give another 50, 60 years of their money to the club...

Also, if they don't have season tickets but still go to most games, they probably contribute more through bad maths!!!

Plus, how many of these 15 year olds do you see kitted out with Rovers shirts, tracksuits, training tops etc.?

That beats a lot of the new fangled fine-weather season ticket holders who we unearthed with our rebrand once we'd moved to our new sanitary stadium, and a much more watch-able position in the league.

I think we're talking about a social problem more than anything, its a classic case of grumpy old folks misunderstanding a generation and feeling intimidated by it!

[Tokyos Boot]

Plus, i said culturally, not financially. (even though i believe they are that too)...

We won't appeal to the next culture of youngsters unless we give them something worth paying to go do every saturday - and the fact of the matter is, the football alone isn't what gets teens going to these matches!
Its the 'banter'... the chance to do something with all their mates, to have a laugh, to take the piss, to act a bit naughty and to get a buzz off of feeling a part of an army of supporters, beating their chest and holding the mast high!

If we aren't going to provide that at the KMS then we will continue to see them fall by the wayside and support clubs like Leeds and Wendies who have demonstrated a bit more leniancy when it comes to football lads culture!

Its no coincidence our away following is pound for pound miles more popular than our home, it is because it allows people a taste of what its like to be allowed to support your club loud and proud without being scoffed at or treat like an animal.

[swintonrover]

I'm 18, none of my mates support Rovers, yet I still attend pretty much every game. I'm perfectly capable of enjoying my self, singing songs, without behaving like a dick, threatening away fans, throwing flares and wearing a tracksuit.

[bobjimwilly]

Its no coincidence our away following is pound for pound miles more popular than our home, it is because it allows people a taste of what its like to be allowed to support your club loud and proud without being scoffed at or treat like an animal.

Erm, what does our "pound for pound" away following look like? You can only judge popularity by numbers. Our away following is about 8 or 9 times less, on average, than our home attendances.

Well, financially they are probably a much better asset. Granted, that money isn't given 'pre-budget', but we're talking about a potential market of die-hards who (if nurtured) may give another 50, 60 years of their money to the club...
Also, if they don't have season tickets but still go to most games, they probably contribute more through bad maths!!!

Using a massive assumption to try and back up an argument doesn't make the argument any stronger I'm afraid.

Plus, how many of these 15 year olds do you see kitted out with Rovers shirts, tracksuits, training tops etc.?

I don't know, how many? Do you have any figures or percentages, again, to back up your argument?

That beats a lot of the new fangled fine-weather season ticket holders who we unearthed with our rebrand once we'd moved to our new sanitary stadium, and a much more watch-able position in the league.

We "unearthed" a couple of thousand season ticket holders in the move. Should we send them back to whence they came?

I think we're talking about a social problem more than anything, its a classic case of grumpy old folks misunderstanding a generation and feeling intimidated by it!

Or, it's a case of the younger generation thinking the older generation are just being grump for the sake of it?

[BigColSutherland]

Its the 'banter'... the chance to do something with all their mates, to have a laugh, to take the piss, to act a bit naughty and to get a buzz off of feeling a part of an army of supporters, beating their chest and holding the mast high!

I used to stand in the middle of the Pop Stand and do this. I never felt the need to go stand down the Rosso end. Why does the Singing Section have to go in the NW corner?

[RedJ]

I'm 18, none of my mates support Rovers, yet I still attend pretty much every game. I'm perfectly capable of enjoying my self, singing songs, without behaving like a dick, threatening away fans, throwing flares and wearing a tracksuit.

Precisely. I don't understand what TB seems to have against season ticket holders either... I mean does he expect us to budget with magic beans during the summer? he's making it seem as though everyone who has one is part of some mystical "prawn sandwich army" or whatever he likes to call them.

I'm not against a singing section but f**k me do you make it hard to take your point of view on board when you go around being a patronising Kitson and telling people how you think they should be a "proper" supporter.