Do you trust the police?

[BillyStubbsTears]

So. Go on then Mick. There was a simple question I posed earlier. Where do YOU draw the line and say that one side is irrelevant history and the other is important.

What about the behaviour of the SY Police after Hillsborough? That occurred 25 years ago. Should we ignore that? What about the behaviour of the Met in the Lawrence investigation? That occurred between 10-20 years ago. Should we ignore that? What about Plebgate? That happened a couple of years ago. Should we ignore that?

Or should we be deeply worried at the repeated instances in high profile cases, of the police colluding to frame people and then senior officers closing ranks round them to protect them?

[IC1967]

So do you trust the police IDM? Don't be scared to lose face with the other posters if you do. It's time to stand up and be counted man.

[IDM]

So do you trust the police IDM? Don't be scared to lose face with the other posters if you do. It's time to stand up and be counted man.

Don't be scared to lose face?  I refer you to my earlier response on this thread, 8 days ago, there for everyone to see:

As to the OP question, yes I would trust the Police on a personal level, especially if I needed their help, in the hope that that trust is well founded.  At the same time I do accept that the Police as an institution has had its fair share of corruption and wrong doers over the years.

[IC1967]

I refer you to my earlier response on this thread, 8 days ago, there for everyone to see:

That's a fair cop.

[IC1967]

So. Go on then. There was a simple question I posed earlier. Where do YOU draw the line and say that one side is irrelevant history and the other is important.

What about the behaviour of the SY Police after Hillsborough? That occurred 25 years ago. Should we ignore that? What about the behaviour of the Met in the Lawrence investigation? That occurred between 10-20 years ago. Should we ignore that? What about Plebgate? That happened a couple of years ago. Should we ignore that?

Or should we be deeply worried at the repeated instances in high profile cases, of the police colluding to frame people and then senior officers closing ranks round them to protect them?

Orgreave should be ignored. Hillsborough and Lawrence shouldn't be ignored. Plebgate hasn't been ignored.

However you should not judge the police of the day as though they still carried on like they did many years ago. They patently don't. You pretend they do and drag up ancient cases to try and make your point. Just be honest and admit you have a hidden agenda and will use anything you can to blacken the names of our boys in blue no matter how tenuous the link.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Still that one-dimensionality Mick. How do you decorate your house? Black and white paint only?

I would have faith in the police to do a fair and honest job if I'd been burgled, beaten up or defrauded. They might do it well or badly depending on their capability, but I wouldn't expect them to conspire against me.

The cases we have been discussing best no relation to that sort of bread and butter policing. In those cases there were political axes to grind (Orgreave, Plebgate), cover ups of police mistakes (Hillsborough) or protection of the family of gangsters who had coppers in their pay (Lawrence). In cases where the stakes are this high, I wouldn't trust the police to be impartial, fair and free from corruption. They need watching like hawks in such cases, and the one who are corrupt need to be weeded out without mercy.

I'd have thought everything in my post was self-evident. But then we often have to spell out the bleeding obvious for you, Mick.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Right. Thanks for clearing that up Mick. History starts after 27 years then, right?

But things like Lawrence and Hillsborough don't happen these days? Were you hibernating in 2012 when a group of coppers engaged in a criminal conspiracy to fit up a Cabinet Minister? And were given unqualified support by the Commissioner of the Met?

See, to me, that one was the worst one of the lot. When the police start trying to bring down senior elected politicians, democracy itself is under attack.

[jucyberry]

If there has been a grave injustice and people are still suffering from the effects then of course it is important.

Wrong doings don't become good deeds just because the passage of time is long.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Debs

Amen. Plus of course, there's the culture. Young people coming into any institution will inevitably take something of a lead from the old heads. Old heads who have criminally bent the system and never been brought to book are poisonous to the culture and are likely to pass on their mores and methods. Unless they are rooted out and dealt with.

[jucyberry]

Exactly. it isn't called corruption just for the fun of it after all.

[IC1967]

What a load of sanctimonious claptrap. The police these days would have absolutely no chance of another Hillsborough or Lawrence. Those of you that think they could are living in the past or of course the other reason you don't trust the police because of events decades ago is because you are hard left and common sense does not apply to you.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick

So you WERE hibernating during Plebgate then.

[IC1967]

Plebgate is being sorted. We're not waiting decades for the truth. Surely this tells you something? If you can't work it out let me know and I'll spell it out for you.

[IDM]

Plebgate still happened though... Why?

[RedJ]

Plebgate is being sorted. We're not waiting decades for the truth. Surely this tells you something? If you can't work it out let me know and I'll spell it out for you.

Most likely because it was against a high profile politician.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick

You said there was no chance of this sort of thing happening these days.

But it DID happen. Members of the police DID frame an innocent man. The furore that ensued (orchestrated by various high ranking police, like the head of the Police Federation) cost him his job.

The frame up happened. The fact that the truth started to come out within 12 months had nothing to do with action by the police to put this right. It was down to journalists like Michael Crick getting hold of CCTV footage. And to the IPCC sifting through the police statements.

But it doesn't change the fact that the frame up happened. There was a culture whereby police officers were prepared to conspire to break the law and whereby senior officers jumped in to defend and support them.

Co-incidentally, the fact that evidence emerged that officers appear to have engaged in a criminal conspiracy regarding Orgreave was also not due to any high- minded investigation by the police themselves. It was defence lawyers and journalists who found the evidence. We're now waiting for the IPCC to do its job and complete the process. Throughout the last 30 years, the top brass at SY police have steadfastly refused to condemn or identify the conspirators. Just like the Met top brass refused to condemn the conspirators in Plebgate. The same rotten approach still holds today. If the police are less likely to get away with it today, it is because of outside agents holding them to account, not because the police have changed.

[jucyberry]

So, for arguments sake... A young cop bent as a nine bob note thirty years ago rises up the ranks until he reaches the heights.

Would you be comfortable knowing that 30 years previous he was corruptible?

 You are the one bringing left and right into this when the only thing that should matter is what is right or wrong.

[IC1967]

Look. I know police officers. I know what the culture is today. It is completely different to what it was in the days of Lawrence and Hillsborough. This is the main point that all you on the hard left refuse to acknowledge.

For no rational reason whatsoever you still think the police still operate in the same way. They don't.

As for Plebgate the culprits have been found out. It has taken months not decades. Plebgate is also nowhere near on the same scale as Lawrence or  Hillsborough. I thought you'd have been happy that an arrogant Tory toff had been fitted up.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Plebgate is FAR worse than any of the other offences. It is a direct attack on democratically elected representatives and it was done for a political purpose. I don't give a shit if Mitchell was a Tory, a Communist, an Ulster Unionist or a Monster Raving Loony. He was put into Parliament in a democratic election and it is an obscenity that there should be a concerted police conspiracy to bring him down.

If you think that is not a very serious offence, it says a hell of a lot about you Mick.

If the police are prepared to frame a Cabinet Minister, who exactly in the country is safe from being framed? And the fact that their wrong doings came to light not through any action of the police to smoke them out kind of answers the OP's question. In certain situations, with high-stakes issues, the police are absolutely NOT to be trusted. They are to be watched like hawks to keep them to heel.

[IC1967]

Right Billy, you've asked for it. You keep saying there was a criminal conspiracy re plebgate. This is not true. You've once again made yourself look a complete berk.

Only one rogue officer who pretended to be present wrote an email claiming to have witnessed the events. He quite rightly went to prison. He acted alone. There was absolutely no evidence of conspiracy, just one rogue officer.

The CPS, very publicly, to Andrew Mitchell's huge annoyance, said there was no evidence of a conspiracy and went further saying Mitchell's account had not been consistent. The implication being that he'd been lying.

Mitchell and his friend David Davis were so pissed off with the CPS they went too far in criticising the police officer at the Downing Street gates and he Toby Roland is now suing Mitchell for defamation. No evidence whatsoever of conspiracy.
 
The Police Federation officials in Mitchell's constituency (Birmingham) let themselves down in their questioning of Mitchell at his office. But again they are not witnesses to plebgate so no conspiracy. Those Federation officials were pissed off with the conservative attack on the police and saw this as an opportunity to put the boot in. They messed up big time.
 
Bottom line is that Mitchell admits he swore at police but will not confirm everything he said.
 
No officers actually on duty at plebgate are being prosecuted because there is no evidence against them.

There you have a true representation of what happened, not a load of hard left propaganda that bears no resemblance to the truth.

The very least you could do is apologise for dragging the name of the police through the mud for no good reason. We're all waiting.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick

We'll see...

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danhodges/100262627/the-real-story-of-plebgate-even-the-police-cant-trust-the-police-any-more/

[IC1967]

Is that the best defence you can come up with. A blog by someone from the hard left trying to drum up sales for his book about plebgate. Pathetic.

So are you now saying that you stand by what you said and my factual account is incorrect?

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick

Dan Hodges? Hard left?

Do a bit of Googling and see what you come up with you utter bell end.

[IC1967]

So are you now saying you stand by what you said and my factual account is incorrect?

[BillyStubbsTears]

I'm saying that there was a conspiracy and it will come out.

Just like it has done at Orgreave, Hillsborough and in the Lawrence case.

[IC1967]

So my factual account is incorrect? Where is your evidence? Conjecture in a blog (written today after you made your initial allegations) is not evidence by the way.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick

For once, you have got your facts correct (in terms of reporting what the CPS etc have actually said). That is a million miles from saying that this is what the actual facts of the case are. It has been clear to anyone who has followed Plebgate that there has been, at the very least, collusion going on. The facts are slowly coming out. As they slowly tend to do in such cases.

Here's a fact that has been available for a good while. Five police officers have been bailed over charges relating to Plebgate. Two have been booted out of the Met for gross misconduct. The story that Keith Wallis was a lone, rogue officer looks as thin a a pair of porn star's knickers. Or did half a dozen honest coppers all suddenly and without talking to each other, decide to invent stories and pass them on to the press to frame a Cabinet Minister?

Just like Orgreave. Just like Hillsborough. Just like Lawrence. The dissembling and obfuscation will clear eventually and we'll see what really happened.

[IC1967]

So now you are saying there was collusion not a conspiracy? If there was a conspiracy it has yet to be proven so your initial assertion that there was one was only your opinion which is not backed up by any hard evidence?

I'm surprised by this from someone who is constantly banging on about how important it is to back up statements with hard evidence.

[IC1967]

So you are also saying the CPS is involved in a conspiracy as they've reviewed all the 'evidence' and concluded that there is no evidence of a conspiracy?

I don't know about other forum users but I think I'd rather go on what the CPS is saying rather than your conjecture and opinion.

Whatever happened to your belief in innocent until proven guilty?

Look, just issue an abject apology and admit you've made yourself look a right plonker over this and I'll say no more about it. You can then start to rebuild your tattered reputation.

[Filo]

I don't know about other forum users but I think I'd rather go on what the CPS is saying rather than your conjecture and opinion.

Have you binned wikipedia now then?