Just who does he think he is

[Glyn_Wigley]

He thinks he knows better than us. He is so out of touch it is untrue.

That reminds me so much of someone. I wonder who it could be...?

[Glyn_Wigley]

He actually wore a very expensive coat purchased from Harrods and was complimented on his attire by the Royal Family.

That certainly was not made known at the time, so of course the immediate public perception of his attire was less than favourable.  Your point about Kinnock at Sheffield is to do with immediate public perception too isn't it?

It wasn't the immediate public perception till one of the papers started saying he'd worn a donkey jacket.

[IDM]

Apart from being seen on national telly though.....

[The Red Baron]

Yawn....


Err. Sorry. Couldn't help it.

Wrong again Mick

http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/03/11/how-people-would-vote-eu-referendum/

Yes, BST, but simply because the indications are that the vote could be to stay in (by a very narrow margin) isn't a reason for not holding a referendum.

I think a referendum would at least settle the issue one way or another- which is a view also held by Keith Vaz (no Eurosceptic he) who has been critical of Miliband's badly-thought-out policy. Vaz believes that Labour should offer an in-out referendum and campaign vigorously to stay in.

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

I was commenting on Mick's claim that a majority want us out. They don't. There has been a small plurality wanting us out over recent polls, but even that has gone in the latest one.

Regarding the question of whether there should be a referendum, I see both sides of the argument. On one side, it would be cathartic to have a vote (and the result in my opinion would be a big IN win once the consequences of going out were really looked at in detail - PS Mick. Don't bother replying to that. It's not aimed at you and I really am not interested.)

On the other hand, do we want our entire political system frozen for 2-3 years because of the impending referendum dominating everything.

And then there's the hard headed political aspect. The Tories are the party who are schizophrenic about Europe. It's in their political interests to lance the boil by having a referendum. They'll have two years of internal chaos but then it'd be put to bed one way or the other. It's in Labour's interests to keep the Tories arguing about this forever. It screwed the Tories for 20 years from Maastricht onwards and Labour would like to see that continue. Not saying I like that, but that's politics for you.

[IC1967]

There are a lot of reasons why I think we should pull out of Europe. Luckily for you all I am an expert on the subject and have decided to explain the full horror of our membership so should we ever get a referendum you will be able to use your vote wisely.

Gross Contribution:

In the last budget period 2007-2013, we contributed £106 billion gross. By the time allowance is made for our rebate and spending in the UK we end up with a net figure of £42 billion. So in a nutshell as a country we are £42 billion worse off over the period.

To put this in context, our net contribution to the EU is costing every working man and woman in the country £20 per month out of their take home pay.

The Common Agricultural Policy:

This costs us £16.7 billion per year. To put this in context, it is costing every working man and woman in the country £46 per month out of their take home pay.

The Common Fisheries Policy:

This costs us £4.7 billion per year. To put this in context, it is costing every working man and woman in the country £13 per month out of their take home pay.

EU Regulation:

The costs us £48.7 billion per year. To put this in context, it is costing every working man and woman in the country £135 per month out of their take home pay.

Annual Cost:

£77 billion net. To put this in context, it is costing every working man and woman in the country £214 per month out of their take home pay.

How many of you had a clue about any of the above? Not many I'll bet. If the politicians told us the truth that we are actually taking £214 per month less home on average from our monthly pay I don't think the result of an in out referendum would be in doubt.

There's plenty more where that came from but I'll let you digest this missive for now.

   

[Boomstick]

Yawn....


Err. Sorry. Couldn't help it.

Wrong again Mick

http://yougov.co.uk/news/2014/03/11/how-people-would-vote-eu-referendum/

Meaningless, that's 1 pole, from a small section of society, in just one month. When over the years the majority have shown they want to LEAVE the EU

[Boomstick]

He thinks he knows better than us. He is so out of touch it is untrue.

That reminds me so much of someone. I wonder who it could be...?

Yeah, sounds a HELL of a lot like billy backwards.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Boomstick

I'm sure they asked more than 1 Pole.

[The Red Baron]

TRB

I was commenting on Mick's claim that a majority want us out. They don't. There has been a small plurality wanting us out over recent polls, but even that has gone in the latest one.

Regarding the question of whether there should be a referendum, I see both sides of the argument. On one side, it would be cathartic to have a vote (and the result in my opinion would be a big IN win once the consequences of going out were really looked at in detail - PS Mick. Don't bother replying to that. It's not aimed at you and I really am not interested.)

On the other hand, do we want our entire political system frozen for 2-3 years because of the impending referendum dominating everything.

And then there's the hard headed political aspect. The Tories are the party who are schizophrenic about Europe. It's in their political interests to lance the boil by having a referendum. They'll have two years of internal chaos but then it'd be put to bed one way or the other. It's in Labour's interests to keep the Tories arguing about this forever. It screwed the Tories for 20 years from Maastricht onwards and Labour would like to see that continue. Not saying I like that, but that's politics for you.

BST

Two things:

1. I don't see why things need to be on hold for 2-3 years. Although Cameron's approach of "negotiate and then hold a referendum" is better than nothing, I don't particularly agree with it because I doubt he (or any UK leader) can achieve anything other than cosmetic changes in any negotiations. In any case, even if he did do so, there would be other member states who would insist on treaty changes, which would delay the process further.

I'd rather have an In-Out referendum within 12 months of the next General Election.

(As an aside, most government activity is "on hold" anyway at the moment because the Coalition can't agree on very much and would prefer to concentrate on their mutual differences in advance of the 2015 GE- an unhelpful consequence of Fixed-term Parliaments.)

2. Labour is more divided on Europe than is commonly recognised. There is a core of Eurosceptic MPs. Then there are those who think it would be better to get the boil lanced- like the aforementioned Keith Vaz. In contrast, the Tories are largely Eurosceptic to a greater or lesser degree, but their divisons are heightened because of a handful of pro-EU grandees like Kenneth Clarke and Michael Heseltine. Indeed, I think if the Tories lose in 2015 (as they probably will) their pitch at the following GE will include a pledge of an In-Out referendum within 12 months of being elected- assuming the issue is relevant by then, of course!

[BillyStubbsTears]

TRB

Re: the Euro-schism in the Tory party. It's a few more than just Heseltine and Clarke who are pro-MEMBERSHIP. The problem for the Tory party is that if there was a referendum today, they would have a near-equal split between the number of their MPs campaigning for in and out. The resulting division would tear them apart, much as it did to the Labour Party in the years after the 75 referendum (remember that the key reason why the Gang of Four left Labour to form the SDP was the increasingly anti-Europe stance of the Labour Party).

By using the fig leaf of negotiations, Cameron can claim to have won back enough power from Brussels to persuade some of the sceptics to come over to the pro-Europe side. Hence the delay.

[wilts rover]

Mick here is a nice little chart showing where all the EU money comes from and goes to. We are by no means the largest net contributor, all the major economies 'pay in' more than they 'get out'.

As the forums leading economist you should know that rich economies subsidising weaker ones creates both a market and extra competition, thus creating growth across the region. With regards to Common Fishing and Agriculture Policies, where do you think the food you eat comes from - Tesco? We import 40% of our food - and rising - and this budget subsidises it.

http://image.guardian.co.uk/sys-files/Guardian/documents/2012/01/26/EU27_Money.pdf

[IC1967]

here is a nice little chart showing where all the EU money comes from and goes to. We are by no means the largest net contributor, all the major economies 'pay in' more than they 'get out'.

As the forums leading economist you should know that rich economies subsidising weaker ones creates both a market and extra competition, thus creating growth across the region. With regards to Common Fishing and Agriculture Policies, where do you think the food you eat comes from - Tesco? We import 40% of our food - and rising - and this budget subsidises it.

Where did I say we were the biggest contributor? As the forum's leading economist you should take my advice that rich economies subsidising weaker ones creates a lack of incentive for the poorer economies to get their act together. This fails to create a proper market. It creates extra competition for us using our own subsidies. This is incredibly stupid as we should be doing all we can to maintain our competitive advantage over these poorer economies. This does not create proper growth across the region and leads to a dependency culture such as we find in Greece, Spain, Portugal etc. 

With regards to Common Fishing and Agriculture Policies, we would do much better by not subsidising inneficient farmers in other countries such as France. So what if we import 40% of our food - and rising. We pay far more into these schemes than we get out in subsidies. Also our fishing waters aren't our own anymore. Just have a word with our devastated fishing industry.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Back on topic we should have a vote that's my opinion. But milliband is completely within his rights not to want one and campaign as such. Though I think it's a silly move for him and will cost him votes.

[IC1967]

Another reason for leaving the EU.

Immigration:

We have totally lost control of our borders and unless we pull out we will never regain it. I happen to think the immigration we have seen has for the most part been beneficial to the country. However I realise I am in the minority with that view. That said, we should still be able to say who can come here and who can't.

[donnyproletarian]

It would be a massive mistake to leave Europe .You  can not uninvent the wheel.All this jingoism is a distraction from the real bread and butter issues .Tony Ben (RIP) was spot on when he said we had lost our sovereignty .But for me the way forward is united working class organisations to counter the bosses who rip us of daily on a international basis.All this hype just gives clout to nationalist clowns like UKIP etc to peddle there poison propaganda.Dont forget we would loose out in a trade war as we are interdependent .As for immigration we should all bugger off as we are all throwbacks of one sort of another .Basic capitalist principles of supply and demand dictates that if hypothetically 3 million people left the country demand would be reduced by the same amount.Therefore there would still be 3 million less producers making no difference to unemployment whatsoever.This argument was as valid in the eighties as it is now.Take the positives out of Europe like the workers rights etc we have gained because we would not have got them from any of our major political parties

[IC1967]

So how would we cope if say 20 million people from the EU decided to move here?

[BillyStubbsTears]

They wouldn't Mick. Market forces would make it untenable.

You might as well ask, what would happen if the Man in the Moon decided to shit on South Yorkshire. The odds on either of those things happening are near enough the same. Flagging up entirely unrealistic hypotheticals doesn't add anything to a discussion.

[IC1967]

That's a very relaxed view. The EU for the most part is struggling. We are on the up. It's obvious that more and more people are going to come here for a better life. This will put even more strain on our public services. Uncontrolled immigration can't just be left to market forces. And I thought you were the leftie.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick

Once again you are showing your ignorance about what I think. The warning sign was when you started a sentence with "I thought..."  That was unlikely to end in a sensible conclusion.

People with left wing views don't believe that market forces don't exist. Market forces clearly exist as a concept. They are often quite efficient at sending price messages out to consumers and providers. If 20 million peoe decided to move here, they would very rapidly send out messages that the rewards would not be what people might have expected. So, because 20 million people couldn't suddenly materialise in the UK, the gradual propagation of market force signals back to potential arrivers would soon stem the flow.

Do the question is f**king stupid.

I'm now going to bed with an impending sense of doom that we're going to see you flailing around giving us some f**ked up concept of what you think market forces are.

[Viking Don]

If you disagree with his manifesto, vote for someone else. Simples.  If the party you vote for still doesn't propose such a referendum, petition your MP.

Ed Milliband does not want us to have a referendum on Europe. The pompous ass. He thinks he knows better than us. He is so out of touch it is untrue. OUT OF EUROPE NOW!!!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-26538420

If we left it to the marvellous british public to decide we really would be f**ked cos most don't really pay much attention to what is beyond their belly button. Now would you really want proper important shit being decided by folk like that if it was your house they were keeping in state for you?

[IC1967]

You're right about the British public. 90% of them should never be allowed anywhere near a ballot box. Most Labour voters vote Labour simply because their parents did.

However I would like a referendum because I want out of Europe so I've got nothing to lose and possibly everything to gain. You never know the thick British public may well go for it, not for the economic reasons but because they are so anti immigration. That will do for me if it gets me the result I want.

[IC1967]

Another consequence of being in the EU. Unlimited immigration means our health service is under severe pressure and this will only get worse. I have to wait more than a week now to see my GP when in the past it was always within 2 days.

My wife recently had a problem and could not wait  a week to sort it out. We went to the new drop in centre near the railway station and were seen the same day. The place was packed and I reckon there were about 10 different nationalities there. We never heard a word of English when we were there except from the reception staff.

The BBC have highlighted the problem in the following report, but being a leftie politically correct organisation they make absolutely no mention that immigration is causing the problem.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-26703519

[IC1967]

More reasons to leave the EU.

Since we joined the EEC in 1973, we have been in surplus with every continent in the world except Europe. Over those years, we have run a trade deficit with the other member states that averages out at £30 million per day.

84% of our domestic laws comes from Brussels. What is the point of having our own parliament?

The countries with the highest GDP per capita in Europe are Norway and Switzerland. Both not in the EU.  Both export more, proportionately, to the EU, than Britain does.

[RTID75]

Talking to yourself Mick?

I was going to say it is the first sign of madness, but we both know you're well past that point.

[IC1967]

You are obviously not interested in the biggest issue to face the country in your lifetime. Do us all a favour and don't vote if we ever get a referendum. You would be voting without the slightest grasp as to how important your vote would be and therefore you are not politically aware enough to make a proper decision.

[IC1967]

Latest update on our trading performance:

£23.8bn record deficit with the EU.

£1.48bn surplus with the rest of the world.