Clegg v Farage debate

[Glyn_Wigley]

AS I say, the costs of importing and exporting will still go up even if we were given the same status as Switzerland.

Maybe. It depends on the deal we make with the EU.

No it doesn't in the slightest. I have worked as specialist in this for twenty years so don't try and pretend you know what you're talking about like you normally do because you haven't a clue.

Regardless of any deal we'd be lucky enough to strike with the EU, there would have to be the reimposition of all the bureaucracy (Customs declarations, Customs clearance delays, VAT declarations etc.) we lost when we joined the Single Market...because we'll be leaving the Single Market.

Thererfore all your cut and pasted guff after your first sentence is, as is usual with you, completely irrelevant to the point at hand as the bureaucracty will be reinmposed by the UK, not the EU.

So go and patronise someone else with your pretentiousness.

[Glyn_Wigley]

For once I agree with Mick (it had to happen eventually). We could do as well as Switzerland if we left the EU.

I don't doubt it, but as I said Mick is missing the point again, either as one of his usual deliberate tactics or because he's as clueless as usual I can't quite tell.

Imports/exports to/from Switzerland have to have all the bureaucracy of declarations and clearance etc. because they're not in the Single Market, even if there's no actual Duty or VAT payable. When we leave the Single Market, all that bureaucracy will be reintroduced for all and every movement to and from the countries we're currently in the Single Market with. And it adds costs. To every consignment. We might still trade as much as before we leave the EU, but it'll put prices up.

[IC1967]

When we leave the Single Market, all that bureaucracy will be reintroduced for all and every movement to and from the countries we're currently in the Single Market with. And it adds costs. To every consignment. We might still trade as much as before we leave the EU, but it'll put prices up.

You need to start thinking outside the box like what I do. You automatically assume we would have the same trading arrangement as Switzerland. It doesn't have to be this way and I don't think it will be.

Switzerland is a very different case history to ourselves. Switzerland has never been part of the EU so different rules apply. As we have been part of the EU it would be very easy to leave all the current trading arrangements in place to make life easier for us and for the other countries of the EU (especially Germany).

If you like it could be described as a partial withdrawal. We could withdraw from everything except the trading aspect of membership. Don't forget, that's what the British public thought they had initially signed up for.

Sorted.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yep. I'm all in on this one. The relationship that we have had with the EU has been substantially different to the one which countries like Switzerland have enjoyed. They have been able to pick and choose how their relationship with Europe works, to their best advantage. We have had to sign up to all the bits of the EU that no-one really wants. We have missed out in not having the same sort of relationship as Switzerland.

[IC1967]

At last. You are starting to agree with me. There is light at the end of the tunnel. I'll eventually have you voting Tory before I'm finished with you.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Every once in a while, even YOU get something right Mick. On this one, I'm fully with you that Switzerland has enjoyed a different relationship with the EU to the one that we have had. We could have chosen to be like them, but we didn't. We went into the core of the EU instead of staying as an outsider with trading agreements. Our economy has felt the effect of that decision.

[IC1967]

Right, it's your turn. I've yet to find anything you've posted that I agree with. I'd appreciate it if you could try to put that matter right.

Oh, hang on a minute I forgot about that ad hominem post on the other thread.

Sorted.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Yep Mick, we agree that Switzerland had a different relationship with the EU to the one that we had.

Thing is, YOU, in your usual fuddle-headed manner, YOU assume that they had a better deal. Which is strange, because even a cursory look at the numbers throws up something really interesting. Since the mid 1970s, our GDP per capita has grown at about 1.9% per year on average. Switzerland's has grown at a bit less than 1.3% per year. Fancy that, eh?

It's the same story for most other countries in the EU. France's GDP per capita has grown at about 1.6% over that time. Holland's by about 1.8%.  Spain's by about 2.5%. Even Italy for all it's problems over the last decade has done better than Switzerland over the whole period, seeing growth of about 1.5%. Germany is difficult to judge because of reunification, but the best guess is that the Western part at least has grown at about 2%. Denmark has grown at about 1.8%.

So. Yep, we could have been like Switzerland over the past 40 years. If we'd grown at that rate, we'd be about £6000 per year now worse off for every man woman and child in the country. And since that is cumulative, the overall wealth of the country would be something like £5trillion less than it currently is.

See Mick. You could have found those numbers out for yourself if you cared to have a look. They are not hard to find.

[IC1967]

Where did I say Switzerland had a better deal? I think you'll find I didn't. I have said that we could get a better deal. That is all.

[BillyStubbsTears]

So what was the point of this post?

http://www.drfc-vsc.co.uk/index.php?topic=245585.msg430791#msg430791

[IC1967]

Just stating facts and showing that the countries with the highest GDP per capita aren't part of the EU.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Just stating facts eh?

Firstly, it's wrong. As in "not a fact".

Secondly, Switzerland had for decades had a high GDP per capita. It's got a lot to do with them not wasting billions on WWI and WWII and acting as bankers for pilfered loot instead. They had a FAR higher GDP per capita than us in the 1970s. They have a smaller lead over us now. So, whichever way you look at it, our performance since joining the EU has been markedly better than Switzerland's over the same time.

So, even if your "fact" WAS a fact (which it isn't) it'd not in any way support the argument that a country is better off outside the EU.

[IC1967]

I don't class Luxembourg as a 'proper' country. So if we exclude them it is a fact. Switzerland and Norway have a far higher standard of living than we do. Fact.

http://www.globalpropertyguide.com/Europe/gdp-per-capita

I stand by my statement that I didn't say Switzerland had a better deal. You've imagined that.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Right. So what you meant was that your two countries have the highest GDP per capita in Europe apart from the ones that the UN classes as countries but you don't.

Glad we've cleared that one up.

But there's a question for you. Do you accept that we have done better than Switzerland in terms of our relative growth of GDP per capita over the last 40 years when we have been in the EEC/EU? Simple yes or no will do. Your usual waffle isn't necessary.

On the other point, if you don't believe that Switzerland has had a better deal than us, why on earth introduce such a random fact into the discussion. Hawaii has more rain than us but I wouldn't mention it when talking about whether we are better off in or out of the EU.

So. Straight question. Why did you mention Switzerland's GDP if you are now saying it has no relevance to the discussion?

[RedJ]

I don't class Luxembourg as a 'proper' country.

What an utterly ridiculous statement. I wish I could say I was surprised but I'm not.

[IC1967]

I've no reason to doubt you over your assertion that we have done better than Switzerland in terms of our relative growth of GDP per capita over the last 40 years. However I would make 2 points. You imply that this is because we are in the Eu and they are not. It is my contention that we would have done even better if we'd not been in the EU. Also it is easier for us to perform better because we were coming from a much lower base.

I mentioned Switzerland's GDP just to show that the 'proper' countries in Europe that aren't in the EU are the ones with the highest standards of living (Norway included). The point of this was to dispel the myth that not being in the EU would be disastrous to our economy. In fact the opposite is true. I didn't say Switzerland's GDP had no relevance to the discussion. You are imagining things again.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick

The GDP of Switzerland and Norway have nothing to do with whether they are inside or outside the EU.

Switzerland already had an extremely high GDP per capita back in the 50s. The fact is that since the EEC and EU were founded, the gap between Swiss GDP and that of EVERY one of the early accession EU countries has fallen. Simple fact. So what point are you trying to make by bringing Switzerland into the discussion?

You say that you think (warning bells) that we would have done better outside the EU? Where is your evidence (warning bells) for this? What would the mechanism have been whereby we would have done better? And crucially, how come Switzerland (who YOU brought into the discussion) were unable to reap that reward?

Now, Norway. Go and sit down and think long and hard about why Norway has such a stellar GDP per capita. And think if it had anything to do with their trading arrangements with the EU. And then think if their case has anything to add to the debate about whether we should be in or out.

[IC1967]

Switzerland already had an extremely high GDP per capita back in the 50s. The fact is that since the EEC and EU were founded, the gap between Swiss GDP and that of EVERY one of the early accession EU countries has fallen. Simple fact. So what point are you trying to make by bringing Switzerland into the discussion?

The gap has fallen but whose to say it wouldn't have fallen further if the EU didn't exist? Also as I've said before it is much easier to close a gap than it is to maintain a gap when you are already so far ahead. I'd have thought you'd have heard of the law of diminishing returns being a scientologist.

I bring Switzerland and Norway into the discussion to prove that being out of the EU is not the end of the world as people like you would want us to believe. Be honest, I would put my life on it that you were one of the same crowd saying it would be an economic disaster if we didn't join the Euro. It is the same people now saying that it would be an economic disaster if we left. How they have got the nerve to claim any credibility when their track record is so blatantly poor is beyond me.

[IC1967]

You say that you think (warning bells) that we would have done better outside the EU? Where is your evidence (warning bells) for this? What would the mechanism have been whereby we would have done better?

There are many reasons but I'll list a few of the most important ones.

By joining the EU we made it much harder for us to trade with the rest of the world (including for us most importantly the Commonwealth).

Membership of the EU prevents us from negotiating our own trade accords with non-EU states.

The plethora of regulations from Brussels makes it much harder for us to be competitive in the world.

We should be trading a lot more with the emerging economies of the world rather than doing so much trade with stagnant or shrinking economies in the EU.

Trade is one issue. Immigration is another. Having open borders to so many people is madness and we can see the consequences in the rise of UKIP.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Mick

It's a crying shame that you didn't bet your life on my Euro opinion because then we wouldn't have to listen to your witless blatherings. On that assumption, as on so many of your assumptions, you are 100% wrong.

[IC1967]

What an utterly ridiculous statement. I wish I could say I was surprised but I'm not.

I'll have you know that the population of Yorkshire is 10 times that of Luxembourg. The population of Doncaster is over half of that of Luxembourg. Go figure.

[RedJ]

What an utterly ridiculous statement. I wish I could say I was surprised but I'm not.

I'll have you know that the population of Yorkshire is 10 times that of Luxembourg. The population of Doncaster is over half of that of Luxembourg. Go figure.

But Yorkshire isn't an independent state, so..

[BillyStubbsTears]

And Norway's population is one twelfth of the UK's.

What's your point? Ever?

[IC1967]

Yorkshire has got more reason than Luxembourg to be classified as a country.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Shame about your lads' result today Mick.

[IC1967]

I wanted Rovers to win. Leeds have nothing to play for. It would have been a different matter if they were pushing for promotion.

[BillyStubbsTears]

That right Mick?

What was the last Rovers match you went to by the way?

[RedJ]

Yorkshire has got more reason than Luxembourg to be classified as a country.

Difference is... it isn't a country and Luxembourg is.

[IC1967]

Thank you RedJ for trying to get Billy back on topic.

[BillyStubbsTears]

Funny how the only time you refuse to answer a question is when it will make you look a right dick.