Free entry for Reading??!!

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Too small a sample size sampled in the completely wrong way. I think on a purely subjective note it makes a difference.  that's an opinion I don't know what the stats would throw up - it would be interesting to do lots of different stats in a better way than that. In reality too many variables and not enough time and you'd get different answers.

[Tokyos Boot]

And for some ridiculous, unexplained notion some people are arguing against a cheaper entrance price and a bigger attendance. Why?

[BigColSutherland]

Too small a sample size sampled in the completely wrong way. I think on a purely subjective note it makes a difference.  that's an opinion I don't know what the stats would throw up - it would be interesting to do lots of different stats in a better way than that. In reality too many variables and not enough time and you'd get different answers.

I'm all for disregarding data, but not just based on "an opinion".

The numbers show us that, when the Keepmoat crowd has been at its largest, the results have not been particularly favourable. This is not an opinion. That is fact.

Now, you might not like that fact, and you might draw your own conclusions from it, but it is a fact.

[IDM]

Some folks are arguing that more bums on seats does not necessarily mean a better atmosphere, if the owners of those bums are not passionate fans.

As for the list of high attendances, where's the Southend (Won), Crewe (Won)and Huddersfield (first KM fixture - also won) matches?

[BigColSutherland]

And for some ridiculous, unexplained notion some people are arguing against a cheaper entrance price and a bigger attendance. Why?

I'm not arguing against it per se, but I'm suggesting the idea that a bigger crowd gives us an advantage is flawed. The numbers I have presented show that when our crowds have been at their largest we have not done that well.

[BigColSutherland]

Some folks are arguing that more bums on seats does not necessarily mean a better atmosphere, if the owners of those bums are not passionate fans.

As for the list of high attendances, where's the Southend (Won), Crewe (Won)and Huddersfield (first KM fixture - also won) matches?

Yep, Hudders should be on there IDM (14,470), Southend also (13,081). Crewe (12,561) not.

The stats for the top 15 stay the same though.

[Tokyos Boot]

I suppose not all players or teams absorb atmosphere like others might. To try to claim that a roaring atmosphere doesn't affect how well a team can play and even often change the momentum of a game is completely wrong - just how much it can lift players in matches is often stated, in interviews by players. (See Liverpools Champs League win)

But to also argue that simply making more noise or having higher attendances affects what goes on on the pitch is also ridiculous (See Leeds Utds last 10 years).

The truth is, it falls somewhere in the middle - a great atmosphere can often make a difference in certain matches... but that atmosphere doesn't necessarily need a larger attendance in order to occur! In fact, look at that glorious Southend game - the excellent atmosphere that match was famously created by the devoted and vocal away following that day!

And as for the '9000 passionate supporters' - id say we have about 1000 PASSIONATE supporters, the rest are desperate to get the car out the car park come the 85th.

You'll hear a more passionate atmosphere at church than the KMS, full or not.

[big fat yorkshire pudding]

Too small a sample size sampled in the completely wrong way. I think on a purely subjective note it makes a difference.  that's an opinion I don't know what the stats would throw up - it would be interesting to do lots of different stats in a better way than that. In reality too many variables and not enough time and you'd get different answers.

I'm all for disregarding data, but not just based on "an opinion".

The numbers show us that, when the Keepmoat crowd has been at its largest, the results have not been particularly favourable. This is not an opinion. That is fact.

Now, you might not like that fact, and you might draw your own conclusions from it, but it is a fact.

Have you considered your variables in your analysis. Numbers are just numbers without substance they tell you nothing.

[BigColSutherland]

I'm leaving it up to individuals to draw their own conclusions BFYP. I'm just presenting the facts as they stand and outlining what, at face value, they show.

Now, I'm sure you could attach caveats to every single one, but I doubt you could build a case  that shows bigger crowds render us more likely to win.

[bobjimwilly]

You'll hear a more passionate atmosphere at church than the KMS, full or not.

So, when we've had a full stadium, the atmosphere was still rubbish?

I thought the atmosphere at the southend playoff game in particular was pretty good? Just shows what I know eh? 

I think the whole argument of bigger crowd = better atmosphere = better results in respect of this saturday's game is irrelevant; even if the tickets were free we wouldn't get anywhere near to a sell-out, and the club aren't going to do it anyway? 

[bpoolrover]

Blackpool have given 3k free tickets 4 there awAy game at Wigan

[The Red Baron]

Blackpool have given 3k free tickets 4 there awAy game at Wigan

I wonder if they'll all go and throw tennis balls onto the pitch.

[Bristol Red Rover]

It's the last home game of the season, it's a very important game, the crowd WILL be higher than normal anyway. IMO money would be more wisely spent on promoting it like never before than on reducing prices too much.

Offering free coach travel to Leicester would be a good move too.

There IS enough passion in the town, just have to grab it, not devalue it.

[swintonrover]

One of the best atmospheres at the KM I remember was the Hull cup match. I genuinely reckon the crowd had an effect on that comeback. I dunno what the attendance was mind.

[Dare to dream!]

Swansea at home when we filled half of the north stand as well was one of the bet atmospheres at the keepmoat for me

[podrover73]

So give free tickets out to people who can't be arsed to come for the majority of the season and therefore are not that bothered about the result anyway. If we are 1-0 down in that game do you think they will be bothered to try and raise the atmosphere. All for trying to get people behind the team but if they ain't bothered they ain't bothered.

[DonnyOsmond]

What's better a full stadium or a half empty one? Nothing wrong with trying and getting it full up.

The deal was £35, I think, so put the price to something like £12 for the game to cover the difference of the two games to get it up to £35.

Get the drum out, Get some rock music on(No Carly Rae Jepson) to pump everyone up and let's win this.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BCS.

You and your need for "systems". A psychoanalyst would have a field day...

It's really quite simple. You look for matches in which there were a lot of home fans compared to away fans, and where there was something really important to play for. I'll admit, it's a black art, but then again, so is much of life. I used to work as a structural engineer. The best definition of structural engineering I ever heard was from a prof at Imperial College: "The art of using materials whose properties we can't really characterise, to make structures whose response we can't really analyse, to support loads whose magnitude we can't really predict, in such a waya that the public doesn't really suspect the extent of our ignorance." He was right - doesn't stop engineers building 800m high towers or 2km long bridges though.

I digress.

But to keep you happy, I'll stick with your approach. You have chosen the 14th highest KMS attendances in the Championship  plus the match against Leeds in L1. The list is wrong by the way. It omits at least the following:

14,470 01 Jan 2007 vs Huddersfield  - Won
14,297 06 Jan 2007 vs Bolton - Lost
13,517 24 Jan 2009 vs Aston Villa - Drew
13,081 16 May 2008 vs Southend - Won
12,923 26 August 2001 vs Spurs - Lost


But no matter. Let's look at the Championship matches. P14 W 5 D4 L5 Points per game 1.36). Not a stellar performance, I'll grant you.

But then again, we've lost more than we have won of ALL our home matches at this level over the past 5 years (P114, W38 D33 L43 Points per game 1.29).  So we've done better than average in home matches with big crowds.

Then, take into account who we have played against in those big attendance matches.

2 were against the division winners that season. 4 were against sides who made the play-offs. 1 was against a team who was relegated that season.

11 were against teams who finished above us in the league. 3 were against teams who finished below us.

What do you make of those facts?

[Hag]

WWWW OR LLLLL it really doesn't matter - it is a one off, same as a cup tie, even if we were playing a team we had never beaten in history - does that mean we have lost before we play?
No it doesn't, but let us give us ourselves the best chance of winning, it does not matter who gets upset about prices (marketing dept should have thought it out better but didn't - whats new).
And as for supporting the other team - how many Reading fans do we have in Donny?

And here is another weird idea - ask the players what they would prefer (as a one off) ?

[BigColSutherland]

Yes William, I will take you at your word and accept that they appear to be facts as well.

So in summary, whilst I'm saying we don't tend to win the games with the largest crowds, you're saying we are more likely to win the games with the largest crowds, but still unlikely to win them?

[DonnyBazR0ver]

What a nonsence this threads turned into. Without any offers if 10.000 home fans turned up on Sat we'd be highly delighted and probably wouldn't even question where the additional numbers emerged from. We'd all welcome as much support as possible and I'm sure the players would too. The carrott to get them there is a different debate.

[BillyStubbsTears]

BCS

I'm saying that, all things considered, our record in big crowd home matches appears to be a good bit better than it is in non-big crowd home matches. Whether the "good bit" equates to a statistical "significantly" I don't know. But given the circumstances, when we want every little bit on our side, I know which side of the debate I stand.

Get the place full and rocking.

If you know of some other metric which equates better with abnormally positive home results, please don't keep it to yourself.

[PDX_Rover]

I suppose not all players or teams absorb atmosphere like others might. To try to claim that a roaring atmosphere doesn't affect how well a team can play and even often change the momentum of a game is completely wrong - just how much it can lift players in matches is often stated, in interviews by players. (See Liverpools Champs League win)

But to also argue that simply making more noise or having higher attendances affects what goes on on the pitch is also ridiculous (See Leeds Utds last 10 years).

The truth is, it falls somewhere in the middle - a great atmosphere can often make a difference in certain matches... but that atmosphere doesn't necessarily need a larger attendance in order to occur! In fact, look at that glorious Southend game - the excellent atmosphere that match was famously created by the devoted and vocal away following that day!

And as for the '9000 passionate supporters' - id say we have about 1000 PASSIONATE supporters, the rest are desperate to get the car out the car park come the 85th.

You'll hear a more passionate atmosphere at church than the KMS, full or not.

Talking arse with that last bit.

[mrfrostsdad]

And why would anyone who doesn't come to support the team actually care??

[idler]

And why would anyone who doesn't come to support the team actually care??

You are an exile that goes and cares, so am I.
If I lived on the other side of the Atlantic and could only make an occasional visit I'd still care.
Wouldn't you?

[PDX_Rover]

I live abroad and was back recently and got to all the games - I care

[mrfrostsdad]

Oh I'd still care what the team did, obviously.
But if I lived too far away to attend, I wouldn't care if it was free to get in or not. That was all I meant

[normal rules]

Of the high attended games listed, most, barring a few exceptions like Swansea and palace would have included a sell out allocation of 3200 plus. On some occasions 4000 plus for the Leeds games.

We do not know what difference a large attendance at home , MAINLY of home supporters could do. Reading will bring 1500 tops I reckon.

We won't get 13500 home fans without a monumental effort, and a part of the north stand opening, so we will never know.

I guess hats what some are getting at on this thread.

Shove the way fans in the ne corner, and give away 3000 tickets to home fans.

[normal rules]

First come first serve

[Iberian Red]

Right, let's have a look at the numbers then William. The most up to date list I can find on here is this:

15,001  1 Apr 2008 v Leeds United - Lost
14,850  23 Mar 2010 v Newcastle United - Lost
14,823  14 Feb 2009 v Sheffield Wednesday - Won
14,435  27 Feb 2009 v Derby County - Won
14,312  22 Apr 2011 v Crystal Palace - Drew
14,242  30 Sep 2008 v Sheffield United - Lost
14,020  28 Dec 2008 v Burnley - Won
13,669  20 Dec 2008 v Wolverhampton Wanderers - Lost
13,614  20 Nov 2010 v Swansea City - Drew
13,293  17 Sep 2010 v Leeds United - Drew
13,251  28 Oct 2008 v Barnsley - Lost
13,026  20 Mar 2010 v Sheffield United - Drew
12,962  14 Oct 2011 v Leeds United - Lost
12,825  08 Dec 2009 v Sheffield Wednesday - Won
12,768  13 Feb 2010 v Nottingham Forest - Won

Right, so that's the 15 biggest Keepmoat attendances I can find doing a quick search on here. (I have yet to find a measure for "big games", or a system to arrive at a figure for "large numerical advantage)

Played 15, Won 5, Drew 4, Lost 6.

It suggests to me that big crowds at the Keepmoat don't really bring us big returns. We win some, we draw some, we lose some, with a defeat the most common outcome.

Have you ever kissed a girl?