Education - the pride and the anger

[IC1967]

As to your point, you would expect that the individual receiving such funding to study would directly pay that back via income tax when they are working at a higher level of earnings because of their education.

You must read my posts more carefully. I've already informed you that a phD is worth only slightly more than a Masters. Combined with the huge drop out rate phD's on the whole are not value for money.

I'll tell you another thing. If I was looking to employ someone I'd take a very dim view of someone who had been in education into their late twenties. This is far too late to be contributing to the economy.

[RedJ]

I'll say what most people really must be thinking.

Your life must be absolutely tragic to continuously troll a forum of a football team you don't even support over a number of years.

[IC1967]

The leftie bias kicks in yet again. I'll say what most people already know. You contribute nothing to a debate.

Stop trying to change the subject. Try for once to let us know what your views are on the topic at hand.

[RedJ]

I thought you liked it when threads were made all about you?

[IDM]

Majority?  My arse!  If the majority feel so strongly about this they will post for themselves thankyouverymuch.

No they won't. I am the voice of reason no matter how much it upsets the politically correct brigade. People on this forum don't express their true views because they are intimidated by the leftie bias that is prevalent around here.

Good job there are thick skinned people around like me to restore balance to a debate.

People are intimidated by your drivel, more like.....

"Voice of Reason" - you?  Never as long as I have a hole in my arse...

[IC1967]

Time for more reason. Let me ask a question.

When the country is suffering a chronic shortage of engineers, does it make sense that some of our top graduates (such as the one that this thread is about) are allowed at taxpayers expense to study a completely irrelevant subject?

Should the person in question be prodded gently by the system to study a degree that is useful to the economy?

When we have enough engineers, doctors, etc. and when we have paid off our national debt and have money to spare, then maybe we can start thinking about funding such courses.

[IC1967]

I thought you liked it when threads were made all about you?

What are you on about? Just because I am the voice of reason does not mean I am trying to make this thread all about me. You contribute nothing and always make the fatuous assertion that I am trying to make the thread all about me.

For a change just let us know what your views are on the topic at hand. Why not pm your mate BST to ask him what your views should be?

[RedJ]

I thought you liked it when threads were made all about you?

What are you on about? Just because I am the voice of reason does not mean I am trying to make this thread all about me. You contribute nothing and always make the fatuous assertion that I am trying to make the thread all about me.

For a change just let us know what your views are on the topic at hand. Why not pm your mate BST to ask him what your views should be?

But you do really don't you you come onto a thread and then just assume everyone thinks what you do and dismiss anything else.

That or you're a windup merchant - but then I'm no cynic.

[IDM]

Time for more reason. Let me ask a question.

When the country is suffering a chronic shortage of engineers, does it make sense that some of our top graduates (such as the one that this thread is about) are allowed at taxpayers expense to study a completely irrelevant subject?

Should the person in question be prodded gently by the system to study a degree that is useful to the economy?

When we have enough engineers, doctors, etc. and when we have paid off our national debt and have money to spare, then maybe we can start thinking about funding such courses.

No one is saying the emphasis should not be on subjects like engineering etc that have a more visible direct effect on the economy.  All folks are saying is that there should be room for the others.

[Dutch Uncle]

The British Museum pulls in tourists and is therefore a national asset. Of course there should be an entrance fee. It is ludicrous that it is 'free'. Of course it's not free because the taxpayer pays for it's upkeep. 

The asset that is the British Museum (and I would not be against the introduction of an entry fee) needs passionate experts who know all about history, language, archaeology etc to be able to run the place, explain all the significance of the exhibits, organise new exhibitions, liaise with other national experts etc. It would be a good idea if some of these people could gain their education and training in this country.

There are a few more museums in the country in similar situations as well.   

I am not talking about very much funding. It just seems to me that 10 out of 1000 places for all of Humanities subjects is on the low side.

[IC1967]

No one is saying the emphasis should not be on subjects like engineering etc that have a more visible direct effect on the economy.  All folks are saying is that there should be room for the others.

There should (by and large) only be room for 'the others' when we have got the rest of our house in order. When we have a serious lack of graduates for many professions it is ludicrous for a bankrupt country like ours to borrow money to fund degrees just because they are the degrees that people want to do.

We are not in a position as a nation to allow people to do whatever degree they fancy without a care in the world as to what the economy really needs.

If we need experts to run our museums we should poach them from the countries where we originally nicked most of the artifacts. That is a far better solution than poaching doctors, scientists, etc. instead.

Stop and think just for a moment. For example, when we poach  doctors and nurses from India, we are doing that country a great disservice. Their healthcare is already in extremely bad shape and we feel it is OK to make it worse.

Many Indians are dying because we don't steer our young people into the medical profession. Instead we think it's OK for them to do whatever degree floats their boat. We should hang our heads in shame. This is morally reprehensible.

India is just one example. There are many others.

[Dutch Uncle]

Right. I'll say what the majority of readers of this forum are thinking. Why on Earth should the taxpayer be expected to pay for a masters or phD in a subject that involves reading ancient manuscripts and relating their meaning to windows? What benefit does this provide to the economy? What benefit does it provide to the person doing the studying? I'll tell you. Not a lot.

If for example this study should lead to new insights and discoveries which eventually end up as part of a ground breaking new exhibition at the British Museum which draws in many extra paying tourists (and they do charge for special exhibitions) then that would benefit the country.

I am not saying this is even likely to happen, but many of the scientific research projects provide little or no benefit. It just needs a few gems for the funding given to all to be worthwhile, whether for science or humanities.

Again I have no problem with Science having the lion's share. 

[IC1967]

But you do really don't you you come onto a thread and then just assume everyone thinks what you do and dismiss anything else.

That or you're a windup merchant - but then I'm no cynic.

No I don't. This thread is about funding humanities and the case for and against. Others feel the way I do (the vast majority) but daren't go up against the lefties on this forum as they are very condescending and have an attack dog mentality.

Luckily I am the voice of reason putting the case against and am not in the slightest bit scared of going up against them. I am the only one doing so on this thread. By putting out my point of view I have opened up a few minds and we are starting to have a healthy debate.

Before I got involved in the debate the general tenor was that humanities should be funded at all costs and it was a crime that they weren't. I have given reasons why this should not be the case.

We are still waiting for your opinion on the subject (or has BST not got back to you yet?).

[IDM]

You are not the voice of reason though..

[IC1967]

You are not the voice of reason though..

I think you'll find the silent majority think I am. It's just you lefties that don't. I can live with that.

Challenge. I am quite happy for a poll to be started asking the question 'do you think IC1967 is the voice of reason'. I am sure that due to the anonymous nature of the vote I would win hands down.

[Dutch Uncle]

IC - from a technical capability perspective my daughter could easily have been an engineer, but her passion is language and history. To have forced her to study engineering would not necessarily have resulted in an engineer for life, but would certainly have lost the higher probability of a language expert. It would certainly have been a sub-optimal development of talent. 

We need all disciplines. Would you force every last student to train in science and then poach e.g. Judges from abroad? Who can we trust to translate/interpret other languages for us in delicate political situations if we have no language experts (or even experts in foreign history and culture) of our own?

[IC1967]

The British Museum pulls in tourists and is therefore a national asset. Of course there should be an entrance fee. It is ludicrous that it is 'free'. Of course it's not free because the taxpayer pays for it's upkeep. 

The asset that is the British Museum (and I would not be against the introduction of an entry fee) needs passionate experts who know all about history, language, archaeology etc to be able to run the place, explain all the significance of the exhibits, organise new exhibitions, liaise with other national experts etc. It would be a good idea if some of these people could gain their education and training in this country.

There are a few more museums in the country in similar situations as well.   

I am not talking about very much funding. It just seems to me that 10 out of 1000 places for all of Humanities subjects is on the low side.

The last time I checked, we didn't have a shortage of experts. That said I would not be averse to some of the money charged for museum entry to go to help fund a very limited number of students such as your daughter. However it does go against my better judgement when intelligent ladies like her are needed in other parts of the economy. But I am nothing if not magnanimous and would be prepared to compromise on this issue.

[IC1967]

IC - from a technical capability perspective my daughter could easily have been an engineer, but her passion is language and history. To have forced her to study engineering would not necessarily have resulted in an engineer for life, but would certainly have lost the higher probability of a language expert. It would certainly have been a sub-optimal development of talent. 

We need all disciplines. Would you force every last student to train in science and then poach e.g. Judges from abroad? Who can we trust to translate/interpret other languages for us in delicate political situations if we have no language experts (or even experts in foreign history and culture) of our own?

You make some good points which I have given great consideration. Having done that, I have decided I was right all along.

I don't think we should just push students into certain disciplines just for the sake of it. I think we should push them into the disciplines that the country needs so we can get back to full employment and a thriving economy.

At the moment we are bankrupt and suffering serious skills shortages. Allowing students just to do whatever degree they fancy without regard for the rest of the economy is economic madness. We need to get our priorities right.

I am certain she could make more of a positive contribution to society and the economy by pursuing a more needed profession.

[IDM]

You are not the voice of reason though..

I think you'll find the silent majority think I am. It's just you lefties that don't. I can live with that.

You have disproved yourself.  Accusing me (and others) of being lefties, when you do not know me, is not reasonable.

You have a voice, and opinions yes, but you almost always say that yours is the only correct one, occasionally being "magnanimous" in your words.  But then you say "You make some good points which I have given great consideration. Having done that, I have decided I was right all along."

Reasonable?  Really?

Anyway, back to the OP, I wish Dutch's daughter all the best with her future studies, and hopes she achieves her ambitions.

[Dutch Uncle]

IC - from a technical capability perspective my daughter could easily have been an engineer, but her passion is language and history. To have forced her to study engineering would not necessarily have resulted in an engineer for life, but would certainly have lost the higher probability of a language expert. It would certainly have been a sub-optimal development of talent. 

We need all disciplines. Would you force every last student to train in science and then poach e.g. Judges from abroad? Who can we trust to translate/interpret other languages for us in delicate political situations if we have no language experts (or even experts in foreign history and culture) of our own?

You make some good points which I have given great consideration. Having done that, I have decided I was right all along.

I don't think we should just push students into certain disciplines just for the sake of it. I think we should push them into the disciplines that the country needs so we can get back to full employment and a thriving economy.

At the moment we are bankrupt and suffering serious skills shortages. Allowing students just to do whatever degree they fancy without regard for the rest of the economy is economic madness. We need to get our priorities right.

I am certain she could make more of a positive contribution to society and the economy by pursuing a more needed profession.

Very strange. That to me looks very much like a left wing state denying individual choice stance 

[IC1967]

No denying choice. There is plenty of choice. Just not unlimited choice and bugger the expense.

For the record I am no fan of democracy. Benevolent dictatorship wins with me every time.

If this country ever decided to go down that path, I am here here, ready and willing to sort things out.

[IC1967]

You are not the voice of reason though..

I think you'll find the silent majority think I am. It's just you lefties that don't. I can live with that.

You have disproved yourself.  Accusing me (and others) of being lefties, when you do not know me, is not reasonable.

You have a voice, and opinions yes, but you almost always say that yours is the only correct one, occasionally being "magnanimous" in your words.  But then you say "You make some good points which I have given great consideration. Having done that, I have decided I was right all along."

Reasonable?  Really?

Anyway, back to the OP, I wish Dutch's daughter all the best with her future studies, and hopes she achieves her ambitions.

When I say lefties I don't mean absolutely everyone on this forum, just the vast majority. As a hardline extremist rightwinger, I find that most of the people that  disagree with me are invariably lefties. That said, there is no denying the heavy leftie bias on this forum.

[Dutch Uncle]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-30293964

Seems that the gap in Masters funding I was moaning so bitterly about has finally been recognised by the Government - but won't be fixed until 2016. University Dons have spoken to my daughter off record about the reality of this problem, and have commented that significant numbers of very bright potential Ph.D. students who could be expected to gain Ph.D level funding are not able to take the necessary intermediate step of a Masters because of lack of funding.

Too late for us but I am happy it will be fixed for many others.

[BobG]

Good luck Brian. Education in this country has never really recovered since the days when Jim Callaghan demanded an 'open debate' about its future. It's been a political football ever since. It's shameful when that process has resulted in it being used for social egineering, for political dogma and for wild U turns from government to government. It's no way to educate anyone.

And as for the fool who can't prevent his fingers typing out ever more arrant nonsense, I suppose the logic of his argument is that there's no value to be had from fostering sportsmen, as just one example, either.  Shame that. Alex will be quite upset.

As an aside, I stopped in at Warwick a couple of years back whilst on the way to somewhere or other. Very nice. Even the fondly remembered dark, dingy and shitty Students Union. Lovely sculpture park. Tasteful car parks all over the place. Trees. And not one teeny little piece of graffitti. Not one poster proclaiming 'Anarchy Now'. Not one layabout idling his time away. Even the Student Union posters about union meetings were unpolitical, uncontroversial, middle class, well mannered and polite. For Gods sake!! Where did protest go? What have we done???? I can remember being woken up at 5 am, laying on the floor of the then brand spanking new Warwick Arts Centre, by over 500 burly, baton wielding plods intent on chucking out everyone involved in a protest sit in. October 1974 that was. I remember Kevin Gately and Red Lion Square in 1975. He was only a year older than me.

What have we done............? What has happened to none conformity? How much the poorer are we all in consequence? And how on Gods green Earth have we allowed people like 1967 to develop? I do not have any sympathy whatsoever with Voltaire in this particular case. I'm more Feliks Dzerzhinsky.

BobG

[Dutch Uncle]

An update to the orginal post. It seems my daughter's idea of linking medieval manuscripts, plays, performances, stained glass and even graffiti has created a lot of interest - so much so that she has been awarded full funding for 3 years for a D.Phil in English at Oxford from the AHRC (Art & Humanities Research Council). Apparently this is a really big deal - her supervisor says she is the first student she has seen to win such an award. Looking at their website they give about 70 awards for English a year (many of which are only partial funding) across all Universities in the UK, so probably Oxford has only 3 or 4 max, and maybe even only the one.

To add to the earlier discussion on this thread about the utility of funding for Research in Humanities, and in Medieval Studies in particular, my daughter pointed out the following link to me, which I found brilliant. There are always lessons we can learn form the past, even in areas you might not expect. Modern day medicine brings along its own problems as well as solutions, and I love the fact that in this case medieval ideas might solve a modern created problem.   

http://www.medievalists.net/2015/03/30/anglo-saxon-medicine-is-able-to-kill-modern-day-superbug-researchers-find/
   

[wilts rover]

Congratulations to your daughter Dutch and that does seem a fantastic thesis she has lined up. She might like to line in medieval wall paintings alongside the stained glass, but I suppose you could go on forever!

I have a BA in History and a Masters in Museum Studies, which was aquired at no cost to the taxpayer other than a mature students grant which Thatcher was giving out at the time to help the exminers and steelworkers retrain, so I feel well able to comment on Mad Mick's postings. Other than the fact that a number of people from both courses went on to study accountancy & law, because employers in those fields like humanaties students because they have research and analytical skills, the most appropriate comment to Mick is...

[IC1967]

Good luck to your daughter. I hope it all goes well for her. She is obviously extremely intelligent and hard working.